Episode 800: Morbid Book Club - Victorian Psycho by Virginia Feito

[music]. [music]. Hey weirdos, this episode is brought to. you by Ashley. Your home should show off. who you are. As the largest furniture. store brand in North America, Ashley can. help you create a comfortable, functional, and stylish home that you. can feel proud of and in a price range. that works for you. With Ashley's. lifestyle driven designs, you don't have. to choose between practical and being. stylish. Visit your local Ashley store.

or head to ashley.com to find your. style. All right, brothers. We're going to get. into the actual intro. But first, Big. Red has something to tell you. >> I do have something to tell you. Today, we have somebody very special on the pod. in the pod lab. The second pod lab. >> Ashkell's pod lab. >> Ashkell's pod lab. >> Welcome to the pod lab. It's still a. little bit under construction, but we're. working on it. We have Whoa,

thanks Mikey. >> That was badass. >> We have Paul Tremble on the pod today. Uh Paul is the critically acclaimed New. York Times best-selling author of Head. Full of Ghosts, The Pallbearers Club, uh. Cabin at the End of the World, and. actually that one had has already been. adapted to a film. It's Knock at the. Cabin, I believe it's called. Um so go. check that out. and C Headful of Ghosts. is going to be adapted to a movie. So. cool. >> Wait for that. >> Um his newest release right here, Dead.

But Dreaming of Electric Sheep, which is. an amazing title. It's coming out June. 30th. That's wherever you can find. books. Um we have actually already. recorded with Paul and had a [ __ ]. fantastic time. So nice. He's. phenomenal. His books are phenomenal and. I urge you to go check them out and. we're really excited for you to see our. conversation with him. >> Woo. Before we get into the episode, we. do just have to thank our sponsor one. more time. Ashley is such an icon. I'm. not talking about myself. I'm talking.

about this gorgeous furniture that we. are sitting on and our feet are upon and. our drank are upon. We got This is the. Revian Lake sofa that we're sitting on. It's comfy. >> It's really comfy. >> It's chic. I love the color and it's. washable, which is nice. I got the the. love seat over there. And then we have. the melee coffee table, which I'm. actually ordering another one to put in. my living room downstairs because I love. it so much. I. >> I'd love to say really quick that the. schweps on there was a mistake.

>> A mistake. >> Instacart, I'm not talking to you right. now. >> Um, and finally, these are the core. stone tables, the end tables. What I. love about these is that I feel like I'm. like a QVC girl. >> Yeah. >> I love that you can dress them up. like. the shelves you could kind of just like. put all your coomons, all your zikor, your your trinkets, your chachkis, >> yahara movies, >> yahara movies, your aala, >> your game that you crafted with your. sister [laughter] and hunter killer. You. can just put anything on the end table.

So, thank you to Ashley for sponsoring. today's episode and for sending us this. really cool furniture. >> cuz it's sick. >> And without further ado, let's get into. it. Yeah. Hey, I'm Ash. I'm Elena. And. I'm Grady Hendris. No, wait. [laughter]. I'm Paul. >> We said Paul, you can be whoever you. want to be today. And he chose Grady. Hendris. >> Oh, yes. This is Morbid. [laughter]. >> This is a very special Morbid. We have. an amaz We already introduced him, but. I'm going to introduce him again. This. is Paul Trembley. If you don't know him,

go figure it out because he there's a. body of work that you need to get into. right now. >> He's an amazing writer and you're. missing out if you haven't read his. books. >> So, get to it. And also there's several. adaptations that have been happening. lately. >> Yeah. Thank you so much. Yeah. The most. recent would be a Headful Ghost wrapped. filming. >> uh in the Dublin area, >> which is where actually Victorian uh. Psycho was filmed in Ireland as well. So. >> Oh, that's cool. >> Virginia and I talked a little bit about. uh but anyway, yeah, Rapton's probably.

be out in a year from now. And. >> yeah, super excited. >> I'm really excited for that. That's. actually one of my favorite of your. books. >> Thank you so much. >> Very excited about that. It's going to. be a scary movie. >> I love that. >> They didn't pull any punches. So, the. directors, it was weird. We were. talking, my wife and I, on the way over. The director is our Austrian niece and. nephew. Like, like it's kind of funny. that. >> Oh my god, that's so cool. >> Oh, that is funny. Like us. Like us. [laughter]. >> or aunt, I should say, aunt nephew. Yeah. >> Yeah. There you go. Right. >> Cool. >> That's so cool. That's rad. I love that.

>> Um, well, that we mentioned Victorian. Psycho. >> Yes. >> That's what we're gonna be talking about. today. >> Yes. Um, this was actually your pick. which we were very excited and at first. I had heard about this book. It's by. Virginia Fetto, excuse me. And I've. heard about this book everywhere. Like. I'm on TikTok like book talk loves it. I've heard about so many people have. told me you have to read this book. >> and it's been on my TBR forever. So when. you mentioned it I was like well perfect. time. >> Great. >> I ate this book up in one day. Like one.

day. >> literally just ate it up. It's so easy. to read. It is such a good book. I think. it's so unique. >> I feel like I've never read anything. quite like this, you know? >> Truly. >> Yeah. >> And we're going to get really into it in. a minute. But first, I want to talk to. you about you. >> Okay. >> Cuz you guys got to know who Paul is. >> I'm not Victorian. >> You're not Victorian. Not [laughter]. >> a psycho. >> Yeah. Only [snorts] when I don't. >> to be determined. >> We'll figure it out through this. Uh, so. we were actually just talking about. this. Congrats on finally becoming a.

full-time writer. >> Thank you. That's incredible. >> I appreciate that. Yeah, it's a little. weird, a little daunting. [laughter] Uh, yeah, I've been a high school math. teacher for 30 years and people usually. react more in horror to that than they. do [laughter] to horror writing. >> I was going to say that's horror to me. to be honest. >> No, I I totally get it. Um, you know, at. a small school local to here and they. were always super supportive and let me. be the weirdo writing agnostic math. teacher in a Catholic boy school. >> Oh, hell yeah. That's [laughter] badass.

>> That's awesome, though. That's a story. in and of itself that you need to write. a thing. >> Very thankful. They're never, you know, if I missed a day or two to go to like a. festival or something, they were great. >> Oh, that's so cool. That's so rare. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I can see why you stayed there for. so long. >> No, it [laughter] was like I mean, my. artistic writerly safety net. I mean, maybe similar to you, like you were just. telling me how you kept your job for a. long time. I mean, it was it was just. nice to know, hey, I had this job that. sometimes paid our shitty health. insurance [laughter]. and then, you know, I could write a book. and if it was weird, that's okay. if I.

needed to say no, I could because I. didn't have to like do what the. publisher said or what people expected. >> I know. I And I think that actually. makes it better. I feel like you. probably were a little able to be more. free and creative with that when you. have that safety net because when it's. all on you, it's like [laughter] like. this has to work. It has to be what. everyone likes. >> No, 100%. Um always admire friends who. make a go of it, >> you know, full-time and that's how. they've been supporting their family for. years. I mean, that's a pressure that. I'll have to figure out. My kids are. older now, so [laughter] they're on. their own. So, whatever. So, who cares?

>> Well, you're definitely like the most. successful like part-time writer. [laughter] I've ever seen. Like, that's. crazy. When I saw I think I saw you post. about it and I was like, >> "Wait a minute." I [laughter] was like, "He's not full-time doing this. What the. hell?". >> Uh, but you you seem to have come to the. full-time side of writing at the right. time because I feel like horror is. having kind of like a cultural. renaissance right now. even like with movies and stuff like. weapons sinners. obsession. >> Why do you think that's happening right.

now? >> Yeah, I mean that's hard to answer. Uh. >> um I'm not sure. I mean I think some of. it was funny. Let me back up. So A. Headful of Ghosts was the book that sort. of made me like that that broke out. Um. and we were when we were trying to sell. that in early 2014, a lot of publishers. were like, "Ah, but it's horror." And. like it was we eventually did get a it. published which was amazing but just. it's not that long ago like now like 11. 12 years later it's like. >> you know. >> that people are like. >> publishers weekly reports and like oh.

the sale like the the publisher. acquisition of horror novels is up 25%. from last year which was up 25% from the. year before and it's just you know the. worst case scenario person in me that. you know powers my books is like oh no. it's going to be a bubble that pops. >> Yep. like [laughter]. that's nerve-wracking, >> but no, I mean, I think it's a healthy. place. We're finally getting to see it's. not just, you know, authors who look uh, you know, white white straight authors. who look like me and Grady. It's, >> you know, we're getting to see way more. own voices and, you know, to me that's.

like one of the most exciting parts. about what we're seeing both in film and. and in publishing. >> Oh, yeah. I agree. I think it's like. different point of views coming into it. I think finally people are being open to. that which is nice and I love it. I love. seeing that and I love seeing them like. win awards. I love all of like seeing. this happen. I'm like. >> it's time. It's our time. No, I mean I. think the other part of is I think you. know well I mean I'll talk about Gen X a. little bit like I mean so many of us. grew up reading Stephen King and. watching the movies and then. >> you know the later half of the previous.

decade you know so many of us were now. publishing books like. >> you know the children if not of Stephen. King but of of that time period and. right. >> yeah like I said there's less of there's. still a stigma with horror which I hope. never leaves frankly I mean I always. want horror. >> horror should be poking and proddding at. uncomfortable things and [snorts] on the. boundaries so I hope it doesn't lose. that um yeah so I think honestly get out. has a lot to do with it like when that. came out like that was the first time. >> broader culture especially academia and.

mainstream reviewers were like oh there. were there were I remember literal. articles in New York Times like do we. need to take horror seriously [laughter]. because of that movie did change the. landscape a little. >> that movie is flawless to me flawless I. love that movie. >> so good. >> now do you remember the exact moment. that you realized that you wanted to. write horror. >> Oh jeez, no. >> It's [laughter] a tough one. >> No, it's it's hard to explain how I got. there. I mean, I'm a lifelong. scaredy-cat for one. So, I've always had. like a love terrified relationship with.

horror. >> That's how I feel. >> Uh yeah, still like if I'm alone in the. house, I'm not above sleeping with like. a desk lamp on. Same. >> or, you know, noise machines and still. go up the basement steps too quick just. because I'm ridiculous. >> Um but I mean, I wasn't even like a huge. reader as a kid. like I was just sort of. like a nerdy math person, [laughter]. you know, loved the Celtics, you know, grew up around here. >> Um, and it wasn't until college where I. met my wife, Lisa, uh, she bought me. right after I graduated, two things.

happened. My last, and I hope this is. too boring, you can cut it. [laughter]. >> Uh, I had to take a a English. requirement. I was in a freshman English. class second semester senior year. It. blew my mind. I had like the stereotype. experience. And okay, >> the teacher was a big punk music fan and. I was too. So we connected. But anyway, one of the stories I read in that class. was Joyce Carolotes's Where Are You. Going? Where have you been. >> and I remember reading it and I actually. said aloud. I was like, I didn't know. people wrote things like this. >> I love that. >> And shortly after that, Lisa bought me. The Stand after graduation and I hailed.

that. When I went off to grad school for. two years and struggled by the skin of. my teeth to get a master's degree, that's when I was reading everything. Stephen King wrote and yep, >> from Dance Macob, I branched out to like. Peter Stro and Clive Barker and Shirley. Jackson. And then. >> two years after that, I got my first. teaching job and I had the weird itch to. try writing a story. Inexplicable. Like. why would I try writing a story? Like. I'm a math teacher. >> I love that though. That's so cool. >> That's how I felt too when I first. started writing like the my first book. I was like I don't know how to write a. story. Like I was like I can't write a. whole book. like what am I doing?

>> I imagine everybody feels that way when. they. >> I feel like everyone has to feel that. way, you know, in the beginning being. like I'm not going to get to the end of. this. Like. >> yeah, >> this isn't going to be something someone. reads, >> right? Like I'm terrible at writing. advice, so I don't give it. The only. [laughter] thing I tell, especially to. to younger people, it's like, hey, you. know, hopefully you come to this. realization a lot earlier than I did, but hopefully, >> you know, you come to the realization. that it's okay to like things. It's. getting harder and harder to do that. with, you know, >> obviously with just, you know, social. media life and everyone hates.

everything. >> You know, it's okay to like things. That. means it's okay to be passionate about. it and maybe want to try it yourself. And I mean, that's such an important. >> It has to be your first step. >> Yes. I I'm so I'm so glad you said that. cuz I'm constantly trying to tell my. kids that. I'm like, I want to tell you. now when you're young, like you can be. passionately excited about things. >> and not feel weird about it. Like don't. make people feel like make you feel like. you can't be all in on something and. want to do it or want to experience it. or want to learn everything you can. about it. Like I feel like we have got.

to a place now where like. the same [clears throat]. >> and everything's cringe and it's like. that's so cringey that you're into. It's. like stop. I hate that. >> Unless they like Grady Henrik's books. then we should really stop. [laughter]. >> I love Grady. >> Grady's a friend. I just like making fun. of him. >> We love Grady. We had him on and we had. the most fun with him. He's great. >> That was a fun episode. >> He is so much fun. >> He's so funny. He was really fun with. the would you rather. So. >> now [laughter]. y. >> and actually like this kind of leads.

into my what I wanted to talk about. next. So speaking of like a love of. writing and getting passionate about. things, AI. >> Yeah. >> I have to rant with you about it because. I think we feel the exact same. [laughter] way about it. >> Oh yeah. I it's upsetting me so much. that because like books like this like. Victorian Psycho aren't gonna happen no. with AI and it's making me crazy that. it's become a thing and I feel like you. need to go through the whole like being. inspired to write something coming up. with the idea like working through it at.

some point like reading your own writing. and being like oh my god I'm a genius. and then the next day reading it and. being like I'm a hack and I should never. do this and then fighting through that. feeling and coming out on the other side. like you need to have that full. experience. >> and I feel like all of a sudden we're. going to get these books that don't have. that behind it and I feel like you need. that injected into the book for it to be. >> yeah no interest in reading it. I mean. the whole the whole idea to me is. reading something or watching a movie or. any other piece of art. >> What the connection is oh this person.

felt like I did. It feels like I do too. and there there will never be any of. that. >> No, >> you know with AI never mind that they. steal our books. >> Exactly. you know, give, you know, uh, and I was a part of the first lawsuit. suing OpenAI on behalf of writers. >> I love that. >> for two years. >> It's myself, other horror leading the. way. Uh, Christopher Golden, another. horror writer, >> and uh, Richard Cadre, and also weirdly, well, not weirdly, but like not horror. writer, but Sarah Silverman. >> We were the first four and spent two.

years as a part of it. >> Um, they there's so many lawsuits, they. consolidated all into one. So then like. I didn't continue because they also. chose different lawyers. It was weird. But yeah, no, I mean, >> yeah, I'm sorry if it makes people. uncomfortable, but like you're not a. writer or a visual artist if you're. using it. You're a scab to use like. >> we don't have a union, but I'm going to. use union terms. You're a scab. >> Exactly. >> U Yeah. >> It's stolen work. >> Yeah. It just at the end of the day. >> makes me crazy. And there's just no. humanity behind it. Like AI can't come.

up. I mean, you see you can always see. it in like metaphors and stuff that. you'll see written by AI. You're like, that doesn't even make sense. like you. cuz you don't have the capacity as a. computer to compare two things like you. just don't like it doesn't make any. sense. >> It's I mean in one way it's like it's. helped crystallize like why I'm you know. still passionate about reading and you. know watching movies and you know and. viewing art but you know it's the. connection components. It's like I don't. why do we have to defend this or. >> Yeah. >> or explain why that this is important. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. And it makes it so you have a book.

coming out on June 30th and it's Dead. but Dreaming of Electric Sheep. I love. that title first of all. [laughter]. >> Such a good title. >> Such a good title and it has some like. AI components in it like in the story. It's about that. The the plot seems so. interesting to me. Can you tell us a. little bit about it? >> Yeah, sure. Um I'm bad at the the quick. pitch. >> I'm terrible at it, so don't worry. [laughter] I think that's like a thing. across the board. >> Now that we have that out of the way. Yeah. So, uh, you know, the main conceit. is that there's someone who's like my.

age and build working for, well, not. Google because I didn't want to get. sued. [laughter] Uh, I think I called. them Sicilian, a giant tech company in. the in the Silicon Valley. >> Okay. >> He's working on campus in the mail room. and he doesn't drop dead, but he has a. massive stroke. Uh, where, you know, he. can breathe and his heart's beating, but. he's not, you know, there's no. consciousness. He's in a vegetative. state, so they say. He signed his body. directly to over to the company though. prior to this happening. And so as one. does. >> Yeah, as one does. And they they implant.

AI and nano bots into his brain so. someone can remote control them like. they're playing a video game. So most of. that. >> So most of that happens off off page. The semi-aranged. 24year-old daughter of the CFO, she was. an ex-professional gamer is hired to. basically weekend a Bernie Zim across. the country. Oh my god. [laughter]. >> So, I I'm hopeful like I hope that a big. chunk of this book, maybe the first. twothirds of her her chapters, Julia's. chapters, is definitely satire and. hopefully very funny.

>> Yeah. >> Um even though it's, you know, ultimately a serious thing. The. >> So, the book is split between her. chapters and chapters that are titled. you, which is from the point of view of. the man with the tech in his head. So, he he is still conscious because of what. they've put in his head. He's going. through like a fantasmic oracle. hellscape. Uh, and then the two sort the. two narratives sort of link up at the. end and everyone's happy and hugs and. cool. >> I love the dual POV. That. >> That's going to be good. I'm really. >> Yeah, I love a a dual pu of POV. That's.

really cool. >> And to think about just like being. unconscious but conscious at the same. time. That's That's wild. >> That's honestly my worst nightmare. >> Definitely very horrific. >> Yeah. Very Black Mirror. >> And the control aspect of it is my. literal worst nightmare. I am the. biggest control freak in the world. the. idea of somebody controlling me when I. can't, >> right? >> Yeah. No, >> one of my one of my fears writing the. book was even though the premise seems. absurd, I was like, man, I got to get. this done before it can actually happen.

14 weeks ago, there was a story where. some company has brains and jars like. some companies do apparently like like. Futurama, right? >> And they were testing e either both pain. medication or uh addiction to drugs, testing the brains. And one of the the. the spokespersons said, "Oh, you know, the wiring is almost. >> taken out of what it would take for them. to be conscious." Almost. >> I hate that. >> You're like speedrunning. [laughter]. >> You get it into your editor, you're. like, "Please hurry.". >> Oh my god. >> Oh, I hate that.

>> I want to go back to something that you. said earlier because I related to that. so much. I'm such a horror fan, but I'm. also such a Freddy cat. And you said the. same thing. I wonder, do you have any. fears that you've never explored in your. writing that you would eventually want. to someday? Um, that's a great question. No one I don't. think no one's ever asked it in that. way. Um, >> all right. Look at that. [laughter]. >> I mean, there's some fears that I won't. write about just because it's too scary. for me and and being just a child teen. of the 80s, like nuclear war stuff. Really, anything that brushes up against. that is too much for me. So, that's how.

I feel, too. I don't write about it. Avoid So, I won't watch Oenheimer. >> Yep. >> Um, I'm sure it's a good movie. >> End of the World stuff to me is like too. real. >> Yeah. Um, I don't know. I mean, I I use so much of my own life, much of. the sugar in my family in my books. Um, you know, it's hard to say what's coming. next. And I and I wish I was someone who. had like a. >> a bullpen of of ideas. And for novels, I. just go from novel and then I'm like, "Oh, no. What am I going to do now?". Start and just try to start from scratch.

and hopefully there's some inspiration. So, >> all right. That's so. >> like I don't know. I can't say like, "Oh, I definitely want to try this or. that." It's like I don't know. Like I'm. just [laughter] totally focused on the. thing I'm working on. >> Yeah, that makes sense. You got to see. it through. >> Yeah, >> I get that. I have the weirdest notes in. my note app of like ideas, but they're. like that. >> They're like sometimes I'll look at them. and I'm like, I don't know what I meant. with this. [laughter] Like I I will. never go back to that. >> You also have the weirdest dreams that I. feel like like nightmares I should say. I feel like so many of your ideas come. from a little blip in your dream.

>> Yeah. or my kids weirdly will where like. they'll tell me a little bit of a like. nightmare or something that they're. scared of. >> and I'm like can I use that? Like is. that cool if I put that in the. >> Are you even ask them permission? >> Yeah. I'm like is [laughter] it I know I. should just take I'm like I made you. >> my poor children. My poor children. >> Yeah. [laughter]. >> I've done uh taken things. >> without permission. >> Including a head full of ghosts. I. scarred my wife Lisa with it because. young Mary [laughter] the 8-year-old. character was definitely our daughter. Emma when she was 8 years old. of her.

personality. >> Yeah, >> that's so cool. >> I mean, hey, you have to write what you. know, right? You do. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I think my youngest had uh an. imaginary friend. We Well, Skeleton was. one, but he's not going to be in a in a. in a book. >> The Mister, >> but the mister, and she named him the. mister, which I was once told us he'll. always find you. >> Yeah. >> So, like she literally on a cover. >> She said, "Don't worry, the mister will. always find you." Like I think it was. cuz they were playing hideand-seek, her. and my husband, and they were like. hiding under a blanket. And he was like,

"Who are we hiding from?" Like, "Who's. fighting?" And she was like, "The. mister." And he was like, "I'm sorry, what?" And she was like, "Don't worry, he'll always find us." And he was like, >> "I hate this thing." [laughter]. >> What does that mean? >> That's terrifying. That's a great. Baroque title. The mister will always. find you. >> The mister will always find you. >> I like it. >> Damn. [laughter]. >> Mine. [snorts] Going back to scary. memories or anything like that, do you. know or can you think of the first story. that ever scared you so badly that it's. still with you to this day? Maybe you. read it or you heard it. >> Oh yeah. So I mean for me it was all.

movies. I mean I think I'm trying to. think age-wise there was I mean. >> in this when I say this area I don't. want to give away where you guys live. but in the New England area I was I'm. old enough that there was a program. called Creature Double Feature that. played man this was like late 70s early. 80s. >> Okay. >> On Saturdays. Okay. So, they show two. movies. The first movie was always like. Godzilla or Gameammer, a Kaiju movie. And that's what drew me in. Yeah. >> The second movie was a horror movie, like a hammer horror movie or black and. white. >> Love this. >> You know, some of the like just dumbest. horror movies that get that eventually.

were on Mystery Science Theater. >> Right. Oh, hell yeah. >> Those gave me nightmares. I had a Attack. of the Killer Shrew nightmares. [laughter] nightmares. I still remember. It's such a bad movie. Um I had. nightmares from the movie Alien before. seeing it because I was listening to my. parents and my aunt talk about how scary. the movie was. Oh my god, I love. >> that. Used to happen to me when I was. little all the time. In fact, I remember. you were there at one of my uncle's. houses and all of you guys were talking. about it and I just heard like the tail. end and like little bits of your. conversation and I was afraid of.

whatever it was. I didn't [laughter]. even know what it was, but I was really. scared of it for like months. >> Oh yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yep. >> But by far Jaws gave me the most. nightmares by far. >> Jaws is such a foray into horror, isn't. it? >> Yeah. I really started at my high. school, which is weird when I was like. in fifth grade. They were showing summer. movies at the high school because they. had like an auditorium. >> Okay. >> And my dad took me and he he pitched the. movie to me this way. He's like, "Oh, there's a scene in this movie that. captures of what it feels like to catch. a fish. That moment right when you catch. it on the hook.".

>> You're like, "Awesome. I'm in." Watch. that. >> I mean, yeah, that scene where Quint. catch, you know, hooks him. It's there, but like you could have told me some. other things about that movie. >> You left out a little different feeling. >> Yeah. So, like I It's one of my favorite. movies. I've seen it 50 times since, but. I still cover my eyes when Quint gets. Sorry for the spoiler, but when. [laughter] you when Quint get bit when. he gets bit in half, I broke my little. 10-year-old brain. And I'm not. [laughter] exaggerating. I had 10 years. of shark nightmares after that movie. Oh, I believe that. >> So, I've seen the movie. I've watched. with my kids and we'll ceremoniously.

>> put the pillow over our faces when the. scene comes. I've seen way more gorier. stuff. I'm just like. >> afraid that my brain will return to the. 10-year-old brain. >> It probably would. It could. It's a core. memory. You know, >> your kids want to see Jaws so badly. So, [laughter] now we're going to rethink. that one. >> And they're My oldests are 10. They're. 10-year-old twins and they want to see. it so badly. So, I've been like easing. them in by being like, here's a picture. of Bruce the Shark as a robot. Like, it's not real. I'm trying to be like, here's the behind the scenes of all of. it. So, hopefully it'll help, but I'm.

like, I don't know. >> You have a pool or friends with a pool. and put the TV and then be on floats. while you're watching the movie. >> I want to do it so bad. >> That would be so good. We have the. projector, too. We do need to do that. >> You know, they're so brave. Like they're. so brave at first about horror things. They're like, I can do this. Let's do. it. And. >> but then the night time to be brave. during the day for sure. >> And we regret it immediately. >> That's how I am still very brave during. the day. Then at night, I'm like, this. is so scary. >> And I don't want to ruin horror for. them. So, I'm trying to like ease it in. I'm like, I don't want to [laughter]. >> give you trauma right off the bat.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Start with Gremlins. Have you seen Have. they seen Gremlins? >> They haven't yet. We were just calling. them Gremlins. I was going to say I. refer to them as gremlins a lot cuz at. night time they always have like an. assortment of ailments and. >> they're always nightmares and eating. I'm like I can't feed you after. midnight. Get you wet. >> Can't get them wet. [laughter]. >> Straight up precarious. >> I do wonder going back to your writing. process, what's the strangest place that. you've gotten inspiration from a book. that you can think of? >> Um there was a moment of like panic when.

I was on a train in England. >> Okay. Uh, I was doing a an amazing book. tour over there for The Cabinet at the. End of the World. >> Okay. >> And I knew the next book was due in less. than a year at this point. >> and the novel I was imagining doing was. going to take was going to be a big one. and it was going to take way longer than. a year. I'm like, "Oh no, what am I. going to do? I got to come up with an. idea.". >> And I had this weird what if for a. zombie that I don't want to say. necessarily because it's spoils the. book. >> Okay. Um, so that was sort of like.

forced [laughter]. uh I guess forced inspiration. inspiration. >> The other way the other ways it's just. fun like where it comes from and you. never know like my book horror movie. came from friend and amazing writer. Sorry to name drop I've already. mentioned Grady but Stephen Graham Jones. you know amazing guy. >> right an amazing. >> hey you should watch this YouTube uh my. friend Walter Cow is this you know great. uh critic and he hosts these matineese. and then talks about the movie. So, basically, it was an hour of Walter and. writer and musician John Darnell talking.

about Texas Chainsaw Massacre, >> which was a movie that I didn't I wasn't. brave enough to watch until I was in my. late 30s. >> I love that. >> But since I've seen it, I love that. movie. And then. >> such a good one. >> Their discussion sent me into a rabbit. hole that became horror movies. So, I. don't know. It's just you never know. where it comes from and just try to be. open to it. >> Yeah. Nice. I'm actually I am in the. middle of reading horror movie right now. and I love it. [laughter]. >> So, there's that. >> That's on my TBR list. You're you're. coming up close. Coming up. Once you. read it, I'll just steal it from you. >> Yeah, here. I'll hand it over.

>> Um, so, and going with the writing. process still, do you have do you start. with an ending in mind or you do you. just kind of like torture it out of your. characters and then see what [laughter]. happens? >> I like how you put that. Um, I typically. have some notion of the ending. Some. Sometimes it's really foggy. Sometimes. it can be this is the last line. I have. to earn my way there. Oh, I like that. So, I'd say most of the time it's. obviously I have a beginning in a in a. vague or sometimes the end in mind and. it's like the hard part is all the stuff.

in the middle there. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. And you're kind of So, you're like kind of the king of. ambiguous endings. I feel like that you. have to figure it out. You get to decide. kind of. >> Yeah. I I guess I've done that a few. times. >> Yeah. That's fun. [laughter]. >> I don't know if you've heard that or. not. >> But do you always know the true ending. or are you kind of feeling that way too? It depends on the I guess it depends on. the story. So, a head full of ghosts in. my mind there's no true ending. And I. think, you know, when I wrote it, I had. to purposefully divorce myself from. thinking there was a true ending because.

I I thought. >> then. >> a true like the true ending would have. leaked through and I didn't want that. Like I wanted Headful Ghosts if it was. scary at all to be scary precisely. because we didn't know. >> and have that, >> you know, to me that's just the scary. part of life. Like you we have beliefs. and. >> but ultimately we just don't know. And I. think anytime you use ambiguity, it it. helps trigger that a little bit, which. you know. >> helps maybe scare people if if it works. that way. >> I like that. >> Um, you know, the cabinet at the end of. the world, I way underestimated how many.

people were going to be upset [laughter]. not knowing if the world was ending or. not because to me it the story became. not about that. It became about the two. the two the husbands and what they were. going to decide. That to me that was the. story. >> But something like the Paul Bears Club, you know, it plays with ambiguity, but. yeah, I'm pretty sure she's a vampire in. the end. If you don't want [laughter] to. believe she is, that's fine, too. >> I would not, you know, I would. definitely wouldn't want to like spoil. someone's reading experience, but uh. >> but she's a vampire. [laughter]. >> I mean, that's fun. Who wouldn't want. that ending? >> I think so, too. >> Yeah,

>> I like that. I think it I think it's. more fun that way because it lets. somebody It like stays with someone. longer when they have to sit there and. think about it and wonder, go through. the different. >> I hope it's never I never want it to be. like a cheap like twist. you know, twists are fun, but like I don't want. that to be just like a gimmick. Like you. don't want that to be like I you know, even if you know anyone out there has. read it and doesn't like it, just I. don't know if this is assures you or. makes you feel better, but like I I. thought hard about it's like if I'm. going to do this, I know I'm asking a. lot to read 300 pages and then maybe. having open-ended stuff, but.

>> I don't know. I try to write books that. I want to read and like I like I like. having sort of the questions linger. afterwards. >> Yeah, I like that too. I think it's. scarier like you said. Mhm. >> Um, one last question for you about your. writing process or just writing in. general. If readers can take one thing. away from your work beyond the scares, what would you want that to be? >> Oh, wow. Uh, that's. >> I know we're ending on a heavy question. >> Oh, yeah. That's hard. Especially with the novels, what what I. typically lean towards doing is I'm. trying to make it feel like as realistic.

as possible. This is what it would feel. like if there was a maybe demon. possession or this would this is what it. would look like. Okay. >> Um, and maybe just hopefully people take. away like the characters like there I. can really only think of prior to the. novel that's coming out like one. mustache twisting villain and [laughter]. all my prior books in cabin you know. there's one character who might be a. villain but everyone else I want people. to to again some of the horror I think. is these people are doing terrible. things you I write them in such a way.

hopefully that you still understand why. they did it and maybe recognize like oh. if not but for other circumstances in my. own life and the luck that I've had and. the privilege that maybe that would be. me, you know, and that's a scary sort of. realization. >> Yeah. >> Um but yeah, I mean, but you know, it. depends on the story. I mean, these are. just the things that I write like in the. book that's coming out, you know, the AI. in the book is definitely not to be. ignored with at all in any way. Uh. [laughter] but yeah. [music].

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>> All right, so let's talk about your book. club pick, Victorian Psycho. Excellent. Excellent pick. Top notch. >> Such a good pick. >> This book is little, but she is fierce. >> She is. >> to quote who is that? Is that. Shakespeare? >> Sure. >> Mighty. I don't know. She's funny. >> So, let's talk about moments that made. us cringe throughout the book because I. I cringed throughout this entire thing. >> It was a lot of cringe. I tabbed the.

hell out of this one. [laughter]. >> I could not stop. >> Also, can I just say like I love Wifred. She's awful, >> but she's hilarious and I was like. >> rooting for her in a weird way, >> you know? I was like, "Yeah, kill that. family.". >> No. Like I was laughing and gasping. >> Yes. >> Less less cringy. Like I couldn't Yeah. So, we're going to get spoilery. This is. good. going to get spoilery. It'll be in. the notes, too, so you guys know we're. going to be talking about the book. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. No, for sure. I mean, I was sent I. was lucky to be sent like an arc uh and. I happen to have the time to, you know,

to to to be able to read it and I was a. little nervous going into it. Uh only. because like anytime like and I I know. this from experience like using a title. that references like a a famous work, you know, we'll see. American Psycho, which I've read and actually, you know, even though it's pretty awful, you know, I really do like that book. >> Um, so I was like, "All right, we'll see. what happens." But man, she had me at. the end of the first chapter,

>> uh, Mrs. Abel, Amuse, is a woman who has. never held a penis. It was just the. timing of it. [laughter] She was des she. was describing, you know, like I'm so. bad at remembering the the character. names, but describing the the woman who. was in charge of like the house and. everything. >> It's just like you were not expecting. that line. And there were so many lines. that you were just not expecting. It was. just said so plainly. >> That's what I loved. She was just so. funny. And like the little aides that. she would make to the reader were so. funny. I felt like we were like friends. throughout the reading process. >> cuz she would say something like like. dear reader or something and I was like. I know girl. Like I was I was like we're.

in this together. >> Yeah. You're right. >> Yeah. >> And I love that she had like the it was. like the little aides that you didn't. see coming where she was like I teach. them history and arithmetic and what. corpses smell like and French. And I was. like wait what? Back up. [laughter] Like. that's part of it. And they're just. sprinkled everywhere in this book. >> I loved it. She surprised me everywhere. >> She did. >> Yeah. >> Um. >> also like with the like cringey moments, >> I felt like there was so many genuinely.

hilarious moments that I felt guilty. laughing at at times. >> Yes. Like um there was a point when. she's this [snorts] is awful but with. like original baby when she's like. [laughter]. >> original baby and baby was killing me. the entire time. >> And when she says I spit out the blood. and see as so often happens when one. slits an infant's corateed artery that. the baby is dead. I was like why is that. funny and awful? Like. >> I was [laughter] so nervous going into. it because one of my friends read this. before me and she's like just so you.

know there's like kid death and like she. kills babies and I was like I don't know. if I'm going to like that. And then. she's [clears throat] like you know as. so often happens when you kill a baby. and I was like why is that hilarious? >> Like no I don't know how that is. >> Yeah. I knew nothing going in that that. was so shocking. That was like a gasp. >> Yeah. And and again laugh despite. yourself. >> Yeah. I was like I shouldn't be laughing. at this but this is hilarious. It's one. of the magic tricks of of of Winnie is. and you know Virginia is manipulating. the reader. >> Like to, you know, to get you to be.

somewhat on her side. >> And I think people. >> based on what I see online have like. false memories of this book because they. want to root for her and they assume, oh. no, she's only killing. >> bad people. Like, yeah, she's killing. the patriarchy and and she's killing. like, you know, the rich people. She's. kind of killing everybody. Like nobody. is [laughter]. nobody is spared. >> [clears throat]. >> killer, >> which I really admired about her. approach cuz it could have been like. >> I mean it makes us feel good but it. could have been like ah like superhero. like she only kills the bad people and.

like I don't know I only get so much. mileage out of some of those stories. because it doesn't feel like real life. >> like I when I I read like happy not all. happy endings but like when I read stuff. like that like I actually feel worse. because it's like oh that made me feel. good but that's not the way it is. >> But that's not real. Yeah. >> Yeah. And even though as wild and. fantastical in some ways that this book. is, it just feels like, oh, >> she just went for it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I love Yeah. Cuz she says like the dead. babies in the boxes that she sent to the. nuns. >> with like the sorry here's another one. note. I [laughter] was like, I'm sorry,

what? Sorry, here's one more. And they. kind of like touch on that earlier, I. think, when she's sitting down with them. and she's like about to eat and kind of. interview with them. Like they're like, "Oh, that's so awful that that's. happening." And in the back of your. mind, you're like, "Is that her doing. that?". >> And then she's like, "Can confirm.". Yeah. And confirm [laughter] just with. the notes, "Sorry, here's another one.". I was like, "What?". >> And just like breaking out of sort of. the Victorian speak a little bit, too. >> There was a few times she did that for. sure. >> And it worked so well. And I think just. like at one point she says, "Reader, she. doth make a fine point about Priscilla.".

And I was like, she does. >> She really does. >> I'm with you on this. >> I know. >> Uh when she found the tooth in her mouth. that wasn't hers, and then it just never. was explained again. >> Whose tooth was that? >> Like whose mer was in her mouth? And. like did that h there were so many. things that happened that I was like did. that happen? Like um. >> I think when she's really starting to. unravel, she walks by one of the rooms. and there's a bunch of like plague. doctors and you're like they're not. there. It's Christmas. Like what? >> But they're all just like. >> and then they just close her out of. there.

>> Or when original baby just talks to her. out of nowhere. >> That's how original baby got started. talking. >> I loved that. >> Yeah. On my second read, you know, to. prepare for this cuz I wrote it I read. it like, you know, two two and a half. years ago at this point. Um because I. got the early early copy. >> Yeah. I was like, "Oh, maybe this is a. little bit more way more ambiguous than. I thought.". >> Um even like cuz it's written in present. tense and there's sometimes where I. forget the end of one chapter was like, >> you know, it's not like will they. survive the night and then she says they. don't or it breaks from present tense.

you're wondering about the state of. these people in the house to her saying. no they don't. I'm. >> like no, right? Um, so I mean her as a. storyteller is part of it it could just. be explained away as it's a choice how. she's telling it because you know by the. end you know when she's on the gallows. sort of explaining things like it just. made me think how am I how am I learning. the story like how how are we hearing. this. >> and she even like says you know. sometimes I'm not right in the head you. not in those words exactly but. >> she's truthful she is. >> which I I loved because that was like oh.

this is a book that I could read. multiple times and still you know. >> still one And still even though like I. won't have the shock of the baby being. [laughter] killed and replaced with some. poor farmer's baby that she just plucks. from the ground who's going to have a. different nose later on. I loved that. [laughter]. >> There's still so many other pleasures to. to get from this when you. >> Yeah. And I like that she foreshadows. the gallows a couple of times for you. where you're like, I'm sorry, what? Like. you're just like, okay, you're going to. get caught after this. Like this isn't. the end. I loved that. >> That was really cool.

>> Yeah. Uh, do you think Wifred do you. think of her as a psychopath, a villain, or the most honest person in the room. >> or all of the above? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, I got to be all three, I. guess. I mean, that's what I think. >> Do that to a baby. >> Yeah. I feel I feel that's. >> it. The baby line. Um, but you know, the. rest of the people in the house are. >> awful. >> Probably as bad as she or as bad as she. is in different ways. >> Yeah, I think so. I think so for sure. >> Yeah. Mrs. Pounds. >> I hate Mrs. Pounds. >> I was ready from the jump, [laughter]. too.

>> Yeah. Yeah, the green dress she gave her. that was probably poison. Like I missed. that on the first read somehow, I think. >> Oh yeah, >> on the second read there was more time. spent with that and you know that could. be messing with her brain and. >> Yeah. >> Oh yeah, cuz they used to make those We. looked it up. They used to make those. dresses out of like arsenic. So like. they would wear them a few times and. then start death. >> They put it in wallpaper too. Like any. vibrant green thing back in the day was. placed with arsenic. >> Wild. Uh, what was the first scene that. made you realize this book was going to.

be feral? Was it the one that you. already read? >> I think it was probably Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It was. >> when she I think it was like the first. chapter at the end when she says in. three months everyone in this house will. be dead. Y. >> I was like. >> I took notes a couple of notes and that. was the first thing I wrote down. I was. like, "Oh, okay.". >> That was the first one I tabbed. I was. like, "Damn.". >> And she's I think she starts it off by. being like, "Yeah, it's going to be like. really cold and it's going to get colder. and then everyone's going to die.". >> Yeah. It's crazy. >> Okay. >> Wow. All right. Right. I'm into it. >> Yeah. >> And again, I feel like we just were all.

I was rooting for her pretty early on. and I which I was shocked by cuz at. first when I read that I was like, "Oh. no." Like she's going to be is she going. to be irredeemable? >> Oh, and she's going to kill like a whole. family. >> And she is irredeemable. That's the. weird thing is like she's completely. irredeemable. But like. >> why did I like her? I was like that is. so hard to write a character that way. and have it work. >> Yeah. It's impressive. >> Yeah. It's like the voice is just so. humorous and inviting. >> and like and and she's letting you in on. it. So instantly that sort of like gets.

you over to her side. >> She is, you know, these people are. pretty terrible, right? Like [laughter]. don't you think. >> except you know they're the people. aren't so terrible who are also getting. it. >> It's true. She's equal opportunity. >> Now the the scene in the book also like. you were thinking the feral scene. What. comes to mind to me is the the decayed. crow pudding that she. >> Oh my god. when she was away at school. >> All those kids, oh my god, >> clergy daughter school or whatever. >> That actually made my stomach turn when. I was reading it. >> That was gnarly.

>> She's like covering it up like with the. maggots and everything. I was like, "Oh. my god, >> that was I Yeah, that was a lot." That's. I think when she one of the first. mentions of like, "And I will be hung at. some point during this." I was like, "Yeah, probably girl." [laughter]. >> I was like, "That's not good.". >> But then I also felt like weirdly bad. for her cuz they were so mean to her, she was saying. And that was the one. time that like they needed her. >> I know. >> It reminded me. Have you seen Yellow. Jackets? >> I haven't. Sorry. >> Oh, okay. That's all right. It kind of. reminded me of Misty, one of the. characters who like.

>> she's a psychopath, but she like wants. to be needed so desperately. >> and she's like bullied and kind of. pushed around a little bit. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, when she's needed, she like. she makes a situation where she is. needed. Yeah. Essentially, >> it felt very much like that. >> And that's what she did. She made a. situation where she was. >> She's like, "It's the only time that. they ever were like nice to me.". It made me sad. >> And I I like too that like like we were. just saying, we don't know who the worst. person in the book is. Tech like Winnie. Winterford is the worst [laughter]. person in the book, but like. >> there's other people that you're like.

these people are also really terrible. Like Mr. Pounds is gross. >> Mr. Pounds is really gross. >> Like all those people at the dinner. party like the dowager. >> I hated the dowager. >> Such a [ __ ] I [laughter] was like. >> with her cane just hitting people. >> When she finally got got with that cane, I was like, "All right, I'm into that.". a perfect way to take her out. >> Yeah, it really was. And. >> I mean, she the thing with Wifred is she. exists in this like weird space in the. book and I think it makes it the really. interesting because she's a governness.

so she's in charge of the kids and she. she's not she's not known to be family. in the beginning. She's not one of the. servants technically and she's also. definitely not an equal at all. But. she's like she has this unique ability. to be able to like wander around the. house and sit at the table and have more. access to places and people without. getting the same kind of respect that. someone would. And I feel like that. helped tell the story really well. >> Yeah. >> Because she has all this access but. she's treated so poorly, right?

>> You know, and I really liked that. I. thought that made it unique. For sure. >> Absolutely. And I think there's a lot of. obviously the Victorian high society is. like a character in this book. Like. >> yeah, the setting like does become a. character in. >> of itself. And I think it's like kind of. flipped on its ear here because a lot of. people think of Victorian high society. as like you know fancy and like gilded. and like everything was so like you know. like they're elite. They're this. But. she portrays them as disgusting.

>> Filthy. >> Disgusting. Like the Victorian elite are. just foul. >> Yeah. >> And I loved that. It was like little. things like when she's going upstairs. and looking in all of their rooms and. she mentions the ear wax on the pillow. at some point. I was like like. [laughter]. >> and like just little thing like lard is. was in one of their hair to keep their. hair back. The scene where they're all. eating. >> that I think Mikey had warned you. beforehand cuz Elena has misophonia. >> So like hearing things. I swear you. could hear it as you were reading.

>> It was foul. >> That scene was that was like almost like. a nice counterbalance to the the crow. >> meal. Like that meal was just as. disgusting. Even though these were. things that were specially prepared. >> Yeah. And how they were eating it. >> Oh, I know. They're just like. >> Oh, it's horrifying. Like like gouging. it into their faces. It's so gross. And. I think it's I love that they presented. it that way that like these people look. like may have all this money and they're. they have all the power. They are just. as disgusting if not more than everybody.

else. >> Yeah. Like I loved that. >> I know. It was almost like the like the. servants in the house were like higher. society than the high society people. >> They had it more together I feel like. [laughter]. >> And the high society parents of other. baby never even notice. >> Yeah. that they're not [laughter] even. >> blew my mind so like attuned to like. their own kid that. >> oh and the fact too that Wifred knew. that that wouldn't be an issue. She's. like yeah I feel like she had done that. before [laughter]. >> you know. >> and I was wondering too when she brought.

new baby in I was like what's going to. happen here cuz in my head I'm like of. course she's going to know. >> That seemed like a corner impossible to. write out of. >> It did. It really did. >> She really just like you're not going to. notice. Yeah. Like that's and it was part of the. whole like look how disgusting these. people are. She doesn't even know her. own child, >> right? Like even and it wasn't like, oh, I picked a baby that's like the same. size. It seems she was like this doesn't. look like this baby at all. And not only. that, it's like it's not as big as this. baby. Doesn't look like this baby has a.

mole that that baby doesn't have. When. >> she scrapes it off scrapes it off, [laughter] I'm like, "Is the baby. bleeding when you return it?" Like what? >> And like the outfit it was wearing was. like covered in blood, but she's like, "Ah, I don't know. Like babies, they. throw up." Well, she said she's like, "I've learned through experience that. like mess looks like blood. It's fine.". >> That's the same. And I was like, and she. and it worked. They just showed up the. next. >> at the next thing being like, "Here's. the baby. >> like the next thing with the baby a. little older and looking even less like. >> even less like it should have look." And. I loved it cuz she was like, "It's nose.

is going to look different and that's. going to be a conversation later." I was. like, "Oh my god, >> that's so funny." But yeah, it was and. it what's what's cool too is she. obviously like did a lot of research. about Victorian times and like weird. Victorian customs. >> because they were nuts. Like that whole. mummy unwrapping part I was like what is. this? And in my head I was reading it. and being like this is crazy. >> I looked it up and I was like oh that. was a thing. Like they actually like.

wealthy Victorian families would go to. Egypt, they would buy an entire mummy as. a souvenir, bring it home, have a party, and then they would all just unwrap the. mummy. And I was like, what? >> That's the weirdest. >> I'm sorry, what? >> We're a we're a strange society. >> and like for what purpose? I I don't. understand the curiosity. >> Why are we doing this? >> Ford rich imperialists. >> Because we can very much that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And we were reading more like they. were, you know, they were talking like.

when she's dressing Dusilla and getting. her ready and like all these like. features that they find to be desirable. are all like features of like. tuberculosis. Like that's and that was. considered desirable back then. It was. like being super pale and like super. frail and you know the the flush in the. cheeks and. >> like literally looking sick. >> Looking consumptive was the cool thing. And I love that she put it in there too. cuz it was all very real. Like again the. >> the green dress like that's a thing. I.

think she mentions the Belladonna. >> eye drops. That was a thing to like. dilate their pupils and they would just. go blind after a while. >> But they'd be gorgeous. >> But they'd be gorgeous with big eyes. Like what? >> But one thing I really liked about this. was in the end when Dusilla joins in and. is all like doing all the things for. days. They're they'reing the house the. 12 days [laughter] of Christmas when. they and when they set them all up at.

the table. >> and like feed them like food like. they're just like having a whole feast. with them. I was like this is the most. [ __ ] up thing I've ever read and I. love it. >> But do you think that Dusilla actually. was taking part in that or do you think. she was chained up the whole time? >> Yeah, it's a great question. I was sort. of. >> I was gonna ask what you thought about. Dusilla at the end too. >> Yeah. Um to to go back to like you know. how much is this how much more of this. is ambiguous than maybe we think there's. a line early on in the book where I.

think you know Winnie is confessing. stuff you know she says I fear I am. succumbing to elaborate flights of fancy. um you know this shant be like other. times or something you know. >> y. so. >> yeah I don't know I mean I I think just. because it's so weird to say that you. enjoy your time with Winnie that you. want to think all of this happened Yeah, just as she says that you're there. Just. as she says and that you're there with. her at the end and so you actually we. feel or as a reader I felt betrayed by. Drusilla. >> Yes, I did too. Yeah.

>> Yeah. [laughter] A kid and you know. >> Yeah. Like why do I feel this way? >> When I got to the end I was like pissed. at Dusilla. I'm like come on that's your. sister. You're supposed to like ride. together. [laughter]. >> But then once I finished reading I was. thinking about just her being kind of an. unreliable narrator. And I was like. >> maybe I don't think Drusilla actually. did help with all that. And then I think. when she sees Drusilla in the crowd at. the gallows and she's crying. I don't. think Dusilla is crying because they had. this killing bond together or anything. like that. I think she's crying because.

of what happened to her family. >> Yeah. Like she massacred her whole. family. >> I think she was chained up for the whole. thing. And I think Winnie just didn't. want to be in it alone. Maybe. >> Yeah. >> Right. Cuz that's a hard switch to flip. I mean I think there were no clues of. Drusilla's, >> you know, potential psychotic behavior, >> right? um anywhere else, you know, prior. to the, you know, just to the like. Caligula sort of 12 Days of Christmas. that, you know, she, you know, that. Winnie says she took a part in. >> Yeah. >> And I that's the only thing I could. think of with that that I went back to. And I think this was smart of her to.

plant these little things in there was. like the painter, like the leerous. painter that she was into. And now, you. know, the mother got mad and then the. father made her hold the locket up and. shot it. >> She had anger toward them. So it's like. you planted that which like obviously. you're not going to be like so you. should kill your whole family. Like. that's but you could at least go back to. it and be like did that like break her a. little bit? >> That's a little hard to have that shot. out of your hand. >> Yeah. Like having to hold a locket and. have it shot out of your hand. >> Well and I think the painter said. something to her and again we can't be.

sure that he did but she finds a note. when she's putting Dusilla to bed and he. says something like. >> you have weird tendencies so like please. stop writing me. >> Yeah. That's right. That's a good point. >> So who knows was that real? Could that. be just when Afred trying to justify the. whole thing or trying to be like she's. with me like this did happen? >> That's why I think the end is so fun. because you really can't be sure whether. Dusilla was part of it or if she wasn't. >> Yeah. >> Right. It's strange to to be made to. want to think, oh, Drusilla is going to. >> carry on as like the next Victorian.

psych electric bugaloo. [laughter]. >> Hey, it leaves it kind of open, you. know, maybe Drusilla's story is next. Who knows? >> And I don't know like which which would. you prefer to be? like was she taking. part in it or was she would you rather. her have been. >> I feel like I prefer her to take part in. it in a weird way. Yeah, there's the fun. part of me which. >> I don't let out very often [laughter]. >> that is is rooting for that you know but. I think you know the more I think about. like I think it you know it's more you. know most of the stuff happened but it's.

being refracted through through Winnie. and. >> and go towards what more realistic. interpretation but. >> yeah she was probably she ended up there. >> it makes sense it does make sense in the. end. >> I feel like unless she and again unless. she's like this like criminal mastermind. and she like partied with her for a few. days and then realized they were going. to get caught and was like, "Well, I'll. just quickly do this.". >> No one's going to believe that her over. me. >> They are related. So, you do have to. wonder, is there something? Are they. both missing the same screw? You know, >> then again, are they related? Because.

Mr. Pound said that's not my daughter. >> That's true. I think Mr. Pound, >> which made me wonder, too. I'm like, is. he just saying that to be an [ __ ] or. I think so. Is that really not her? when. he talks about being. >> she talks at different times about being. observed and she's not sure quite by who. and you know maybe it's Drusilla and for. a while she thought it was Drusilla. >> Yeah. >> Um yeah I don't know. Interesting. >> Yeah. >> There's a lot that you have to wonder. >> Yeah. >> From Winnie's perspective and I think. that's just fun. >> You mentioned people to hate before. Like we haven't I I hate I hated Andrew.

the most. >> Oh my god. >> I hate Andrew so much and I was like why. don't we get this eightyear-old child? >> Is he only eight? Yeah, >> I [laughter] think he's literally. becomes bigger and older, but yeah, he's. only. >> He w he walked in on the first day and. he was like, "Screw you. This is how. it's going to go. My last nanny was. better than you." And I was like, "You. don't run stuff around here." Little. Andrew. And I think he was like licking. food off of one of the nurs's fingers. And I was like, "No, not. >> Yeah. Just, you know, Mr. Pound in. training like. >> Yeah, that's exactly what it felt like.

>> That's the thing." Well, it's funny, you. know, thinking of that because Lisa's a. huge fan of like Jane Austin and other. Victorian novels. I wonder, are you all. Victorian readers, Austin, etc. I'm. curious as someone who was a big. Victorian novel reader, what they would. think of the voice of the style of the. setup. >> That would be interesting, actually. >> Yeah, I haven't read a ton of that. So, yeah, >> I thought it was really fun, though. I. know cuz I feel like Victorian novels. usually like the ones I've read from. like school and such. Yeah. I feel like. they do present the Victorian age as.

like this very like. >> fancy whimsical and romantic time. >> which I'm sure it had elements of but. like grubby. >> Yeah. But [laughter] I mean I do think. there's an element of like the manners, you know, because I know Jane Austin you. was riffing on like the manners and. using that to. >> for sure. >> using that to represent the difference. between the classes as opposed to. cyclist killing babies. >> Right. Exactly. I think that there is. that there is the manners component to. it like you know the dinner that we. talked about and just how Winnie is. treated and. >> you know how she'll say things that. probably in reality would have gotten.

her like fired right away but you know. for our benefit that that's funny. I. don't know. Yeah. >> I love the couple times where they'd be. like excuse me and then she'd say. something completely different. That was. great. >> Like when she says are we not allowed to. eat the children like. >> as she's like licking a calf head on. like a I was like what? I I also just. love that everything that went ignored. that she did like uh. >> Yeah. >> The even I think it was like the first. day that she was there, she bites into. the calf's head. >> Yeah, that's that's the part. Is that. what you're talking about? And she's.

somebody finds her and. >> she turns around and she's like, "Oh, we're not allowed to eat the children. I. didn't know that." And they were just. like, "What?". >> They're like, "Okay, you're strange.". >> I love her. I like I just love how like. unhinged she is. >> And she was always weirdly rudder to the. like her co-workers, right? >> She was. Yeah. Like, you know, she. talked at times about like dreaming of. being this is my forever family. Like, she says that a couple times. Yeah. >> Even though, you know, she has nothing. but disdain for pounds, but there's. still like. >> she wants to be part of something. >> I don't know if it's sometimes if it's.

humor or her I don't know like I'm not. 100% sure like why. >> Yeah. >> That's what I meant like earlier wasn't. just like, you know, she's just, >> you know, she's just sthing her way. through the upper class, right? >> Like there's no one to spared like No. >> Which I think makes her really. difficult. Yeah. >> And even stranger like how much we enjoy. [laughter] her. >> I know cuz she talks about having like. line like shelves lined with dead babies. at home. >> as a child too. >> As a child and that like she had a full. grown woman like outside dead and she. was like she didn't fit on the shelf and.

it was like is that real? Like did you. really do that? >> And I think it is. >> I think it might be. >> Yeah. I think one thing that we didn't. touch on that I would love to hear like. how you guys felt. Were you absolutely. shocked when you found out that Mr. Pounds was her father? And do you. believe that he actually was? >> Uh, I'd say yes and yes. >> Yes. >> I think that's very believable. Even, you know, of other stuff is of her sort. of creation. >> I think the same thing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But I was shocked. >> But I was Yeah. >> I got to that point when it was like. John Pounds and my mouth literally.

dropped. And then you have to wonder, you're like, "Okay, like is this the Mr. Pounds?" So then I kept reading and it. was then confirmed. I was like, "Holy. [ __ ]. >> I didn't see that coming.". >> And she went in there with a mission. So. like when it hap when it was revealed I. was like oh like this makes sense why. she went in there with like a mission. >> when she had it like arranged that she. got that job too. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I thought that was crazy. >> I know. It was wild. >> I thought that was a really good just. like. >> like all of a sudden just like oh my. god.

>> And it was weird too like going back to. like Drusilla now that I'm thinking. about it. It's weird that Drusilla did. survive this whole thing if she wasn't a. part of it cuz I'm like why did you save. her? Like did you see something that you. like and you kind of see throughout the. the book that she does kind of try to. like guide Driscilla a little bit more. >> than like Andrew or anyone else. Like. >> I'm like I wonder what that was like. what that connection was. >> I wonder if it was like the unwanted. daughter kind of thing cuz she has an.

unwanted daughter and then they're. always like whenever she brings up. Derilla and Mr. Pounds he's like yeah. whatever Andrew like he's going to take. over the the name the family name. So. maybe it was that. >> and like he gets all like the classes. and all the people coming to teach him. things and you know she's just got to. learn needle work. >> and get married. >> Yeah. To get married. So maybe that is. it. >> Maybe. >> But I think it kind of lends itself even. more to the ambiguity of the whole thing. cuz now I'm like. >> well I don't know. Maybe she was chained. to that whole thing the whole time. Or. maybe she was part of it. I don't know.

But I also love that this has like there. were I was reading it out loud like. certain parts of it to my husband last. night because I was just like laughing. at certain parts. He's like what is. this? So I'd read him a line every once. in a while and he was like what is this. [laughter] story? What is going on? But. I think it has such a good mix of like. pure horror. Like the end is horrific. The baby being killed horrific and like. them even them eating so funny. It's. like but there's real comedy in there. too. It's like such a good mix. And I. feel like that's really hard to.

accomplish. >> It's a tough balance. >> because you're either it's going to go. too horrific and you're going to be like. the comedy doesn't fit here and it makes. it weird and like I'm uncomfortable with. it or it's going to go too like goofy. and then the horror feels goofy too and. neither of these felt goofy. It felt. like a perfect mix. >> And it reminds me Have you watched. Widow's Bay? >> Yes. Oh yes. >> I haven't started it yet. I've been try. I'm like trying to recruit people to. watch Widows Bay now. It gave me the. because I think that show that's how. I've been describing it to people is.

like. >> the horror in it is genuinely scary at. times, but it is so funny and the funny. isn't overly goofy where it like, you. know, waters down the horror of it. >> So, it gave me that. >> I It's a great point and I've in other. interviews I've I mean because I love I. like horror comedies, but I think it's. really hard to sort of say what you. described is not to have the source of. the comedy be the horror. >> Yeah. Right. That's what most horror. comedies are. It's really find hard to. find in my mind horror comedies that are.

both scary and funny. >> Yeah. >> Um especially in terms of film. >> And I agree this book does it. Widow Bay. is Widow's Bay is doing it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I think it's And I was when we first. started watching Widows Bay, I was like, "Oh my god, they nailed this combo." And. again, like you were saying, >> you just like don't really see that work. ever. And so I was like, "Oh, this is. like a diamond in the rough." Like holy. [ __ ]. >> Yeah. And then reading this right after. we started watching this, I was like, how have I come across two pieces of. media that have done this so well in the.

same like two week span? >> It's the horror renaissance. >> It's the horror renaissance. It is. [laughter]. >> That's what makes me so excited for this. to now be translated into film. I feel. like it's going to be really fun. >> I'm nervous. >> I know. I'm nervous. I'm scared. I'm. excited. >> Cautiously optimistic. >> I'm cautiously optimistic. >> But we always we always have this. Yes. >> If if the film does not work, we have. this. Well, and the fact that you said. she wrote the screenplay, that gives me. a lot of optimism. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> All right. Now, I think we have to get. to what I think you might have come for,

which is the rapid fire. Would you. rather. >> kind of slasher edition. >> Yeah. We got a mix. >> Yeah, we have a whole mix in here. >> Like New England stuff in here. >> There's Victorian Central. >> There's some of your some of your work. in here. >> All right. >> All right. So, number one, would you. rather be trapped in a mirror a manor. with Wifred for 24 hours or trapped in a. group chat with every villain character. from your novels? [laughter]. >> Uh,

I think I'll go with the group chat just. cuz I feel like I won't die. I might be. really annoyed and disturbed, >> but like I think I I wouldn't last very. long with Winterfred in the house. >> Fair enough. And you can always throw on. like do not disturb, you know? >> That's valid. Yeah, >> I think that's valid. >> I think that's what I would do. I'd be. afraid she would kill me and replace me. with other Paul and people would be. like, "Oh yeah, [laughter]. >> Paul with new Paul.". >> There's original Paul and then there's. new Paul. >> Yeah. >> See, I hate te like I'm one of those. people that people will text me and I'll. look at it and be like, >> "Oh, I should answer that." And then I.

just don't for like five days and then. I'm like, "I'm so sorry." And it's like. I'm just bad at it and I get overwhelmed. and like executive dysfunction. So I. feel like being [laughter] in a group. chat. >> Yeah. >> is my nightmare. Yeah. >> Well, and the villains in your book. might kill you. >> They might just I don't want to listen. to them. So, I think and I don't know. I. feel like me and Wifred for 24 hours. >> We might be okay. >> Could be a cool hang. >> I feel like we might be okay. >> You could have like a Dusilla and. Winifred kind of vibe. >> Yeah. >> I love I just want to believe that.

>> Or would there be other people in the. house for her to kill just in case or is. it just you? >> That's a good one. >> Oneon one. So, you do have to survive. that cuz she is going to have to go 24. hours without hurting someone. >> She started off pretty chill. >> She did. >> Give her a calf's head. >> Yeah. There you go. Let her lick you. every once [laughter] in a while. >> Yeah. Just give her your earlobe. >> That's all you need. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I think it's fine. >> You know what? Yeah. I'm in real Winnie. I'm going Winnie. >> I mean, I don't want her to lick me, but. >> All right. So, the next one is, would. you rather have a ghost follow you.

forever? Just follow you around. Or a. book reviewer follow you forever. [laughter]. Oh man, I think I'll have to go with the. ghost. I mean, that'll be very scary at night. though. Um, but like I don't know how you do it, but. like I actively avoid reading any Good. Reads or Amazon There Lies Madness. >> So, I mean, if you're talking like oh. like a. >> I don't know like a New York Times. review is following me around. I feel. like they might be a little bit more. polite, but I don't know.

>> Maybe they wouldn't. >> Make it We're making it an [laughter]. internet reviewer. >> Yeah. If it's random internet, then. there's no choice. I I would do the. ghost. >> Yes. 100%. I agree with you 100%. >> I'd pick a ghost, too, just because I. think that's fun. >> Yeah. >> And I feel like ghosts have followed me. in my life, so nothing new here. >> And I feel like you could eventually. become friends. >> Yeah. >> The ghosts. Like you could you could. have a rapport at some point. >> Yeah. You get used to their tendencies. It's like mate. >> Exactly. >> I'm sure I'd annoy him because I'd start. calling him Casper or something and. they'd get pissed off and.

>> they'd be like, "Maybe that's your bond. though." You know, bomb. >> That's your thing. [laughter]. All right. Would you rather receive one. life-changing, terrifying supernatural. visitation, like earthshattering? >> Just one. >> Just one. Or would you rather receive. one brutal Goodreads review every. morning, [laughter]. >> which is kind. >> So I have to review it. I have to read. it. >> Mhm. Just one every morning, which is a. probably tough way. >> Like a really brutal one. >> That's hard to start. Yeah. Geez. Maybe.

I mean, so like 98% of my day I'm a card. carrying skeptic atheist, don't believe. in anything. But there's like the 2%. where I wake up in the middle of the. night and I'm totally freaked out. The. next day I'm like, "Paul, are you such. an idiot?" [laughter] So like, you know, I I tell [snorts] people that I I don't. believe, >> but I don't want to be proven wrong. So. even though I'm I'm leaning towards the. first thing, >> um because in some way in some ways that. would actually still also be really. cool. Like. >> whoa, there's. >> this. There it is. There it is.

>> Where does this exist? So, >> I think I would go with the first, >> even though it would probably scare the. [ __ ] out of me and I'd be like, >> "Yeah, cuz it's going to be brutal.". >> But at least it's just one. It's not a. bad review every day for the rest of. your life. Yeah. You know, >> that'll get you down. >> That would That's the thing. I can I. feel like it with proper therapy and. help, I can get past a brutal. supernatural experience that I. [laughter] can't explain. >> That's true. But having it happen like a. brutal Goodreads review every morning. for the rest of my life, I feel like. that would that would take years off.

>> as opposed to home. I mean, because I. could do that easily. >> Yeah, [laughter] that's the thing. That. could really happen. I could do that. right now. I don't want to. >> Yeah. Don't do that. You too. Yeah. No. No. No. >> Uh, so this one I'm really interested. in. >> Would you rather be able to write a. first draft in one week. >> or. >> like Stephen Graham Jones? >> Yeah. Just like boom. Exact. Like boom, here we go. That's how quickly he. writes. Yeah. >> Would you like to be able to revise a. manuscript perfectly on one pass?

>> Uh, I'll do the one pass. >> One pass. One pass on the manuscript. >> I was hoping you would answer that. because I also feel that way. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Cuz I'm fine with the first draft taking. forever. >> Yeah. I mean, as hard as it can be, uh, I love like how life sneak sneaks in. Like it usually takes me 12 to 15 months. to come up with a draft. And oh, it's. kind of fun. Like the book gets better. by living with that book for that time. Like things that I never would have in. that week I never would have come up. with like it took that time. So.

>> I think I think it's too realistically. But yeah. >> Yeah. [laughter] No, it's true though. That's a realistic one. You know, >> it makes sense because it kind of like. dips into, you know, if like something's. happening that week, the writing's going. to change a little bit and the story. might change with it or a character. might change with it. >> So I feel the same way. I think I don't. mind like sitting with a draft for a. while and like tinkering with it. Yeah. >> Once it comes to like the first passes. and the edits, that's when I'm like, did. [laughter] I get through this? >> So, definitely that one. >> Me, too. >> Yeah. >> You know. >> Yeah.

>> So, the next one, this is also a really. good one, I feel. >> Would you rather encounter a ghost from. 1692 Salem or the ghost of a really. salty sea captain from Cape Cod? >> We're saying salty personality. >> Yeah. And maybe he's salty. >> and probably as well. He's probably. physically salty as well. >> You know, my my knee-jerk is to go with. the salty person, but I think I would. become really annoying because I know I. would just start talking like them. Like. [laughter]. >> I'm it's so bad like if I talk to.

British friends for more than five. minutes, I start. >> I'm not doing it on purpose and I feel. like such an [ __ ] It just starts. happening. >> But I think maybe for the comedy of it, the the salty sea [laughter] captain. >> because then I would have a new. impersonation or pattern. >> slip into every once in a while. I would. pick that. [laughter]. >> I grew up in Beverly next to Salem, so. I'm like, h I mean, I love that area, but like h give me the new give me the. new guy. >> 1692 ghost just sounds really scary. They probably really like faced a lot in. their life. So, >> and I wouldn't understand what they're. saying like how they talk. You ever seen.

the movie The Witch? Like, you know, >> I love that movie, but like I don't know. what. >> you'd have to constantly be like, what? [laughter]. >> And then you might start talking like. that and yourself. That's true. That's. true. See, I might regardless of all of. that, I might pick the 1692 ghost. >> That just makes sense for you. >> because I just want to know. >> Yeah. >> Everything. Like I think I'd be like, "Sit down. [laughter] Tell me it all. Like, what happened here?". >> Yeah. >> I need to know. I want to know. everything. >> That's fair. >> I also want to I want to know like are.

there still bodies under, you know, Gallows Hill? Yes. Burial point. >> You're still thinking Widow's Bay. You. want to hang out with Hamish, the Warren. guy. >> Yes. I want to know. like tell me tell. me what it is. Like we haven't used they. haven't figured out if there's still. bodies buried in that area and I'm like. you got to tell me. So. >> yeah, you'd ask about like Charles. Corey. >> Oh yeah. I'd be like what was he like? He seems kind of he was kind of a dick. >> Yeah. >> Like iconic at the same time, you know. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I'd want to know all of that. [laughter]. >> I get that. I'm going sea captain. >> I get it. >> Yeah. Just fun.

>> Yeah. >> You know, >> that's fine. So I'll get the 1692. person. The salty sea captain. >> and we'll sing sea songs. See I love it. And then we'll all get together and we. can learn things. >> Compare numbers. >> Yeah. >> All right. This one's kind of heady. Would you rather have definitive proof. that ghosts do exist or definitive proof. that they do not? >> Which we kind of touched upon, but. >> we did sort of. >> H the fir again the first one would be. more fun like. like I would say like I don't have to.

prove they don't exist. To me that's. almost like the assumption like you. would have to prove the other way, right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, I could be like the most. famous person on earth and true could. totally cash in on proving. I'm just. thinking I want money. I'm a full-time. writer now. I need money. I'm [laughter]. desperate. So, yeah, let me prove the. ghosts and. >> you know, write for tell alls on it and. >> interviews like oneonone. Yeah. Experience. >> I want proof that they exist simply. because that's just. >> I don't want to live in a world where.

they don't exist, you know? >> That's how I feel. >> The fun in that. What's the fun in that? Because I always say the same thing, like I'm a very healthy skeptic at. times, but I I believe I want to believe. more that they do exist. >> We've had so many experiences that it's. crazy to me that you're still skeptical. >> Well, there's I try my first knee-jerk. instinct is to try to explain it with. some kind of. >> We grew up in a haunted [laughter] house. >> and I try to explain it and sometimes I. can, but sometimes I can't. >> So many things in that house we grew up. in inexplicable. Yeah, there's.

definitely been a lot of fa and that's. why I'm more over on the side of like. okay I think there are something I don't. know what but. >> yeah like to not to well when I'm always. posed that question I feel like I. disappoint people it's like yeah like. you know because I've never experienced. anything and. >> and I've always said I feel like if I. were to experience it wouldn't be like. Slimer from Ghostbusters. Yeah. >> It [clears throat] would be really. subtle and just off and like as time. passes I would be. >> I would want to explain it away. >> Yeah. >> And that would just be the way it would. go. Yeah. Um, so but anyway, I don't.

know if that adds anything. I was just. thinking about. >> I think well and I had like like one. thing that happened in our house growing. up that I to this day like cannot. explain and that's the one that really. like got me like what was that we had. like my house used to be like an old. farmhouse so it's got all this like. crazy history and it's super old. We. found like weird [ __ ] buried on the. floor. >> Weird [ __ ] buried there. And the primary. bedroom, like they add, my parents added. on to the house, but the primary bedroom. like used to be my bedroom. And it. always had weird [ __ ] going on in it. But again, I was like, "It's fine.

Nothing's weird here." And it became my. parents like art studio when I kind of. like got older and I moved into another. room. >> That room is scary as hell. >> and it's scary now. And that we had like. it was when we had which like RIP. computer rooms where it was like the. room where the computer lived. Mhm. >> They used to shut the door every time. and you had to go past the primary. bedroom, the old one, to get to the. computer room. And one night I was. walking past it to go to the computer. room. >> The door was shut and something from.

behind the door, hit the door from. inside so hard that I jumped across the. hall like into the wall. My dog like. jumped up and was like, "What the hell. was that?". >> I think my my dad heard it and was like, "What did you just do? like what was. that? And I was like, I have no idea. what that is. It was in there. He opened. the door. Nothing was against the door. It sounded like somebody took fists and. slammed them against the door. And it. was right when I walked by. >> That's terrifying. >> And that's the one that I'm like, I. don't know how that happened.

>> In that same room. >> That's a good one. >> Yeah. That same room. I used to spend. the night in that room. If like you had. people over or something, I would sleep. in that room. >> And I was on an air mattress like. watching the Disney Channel probably. I. was like 10 years old. And there was. this like Tupperware like container. thing full of old magazines and it was. probably like 2:00 in the morning and it. just slid across the room with like. crazy force. I screamed so loud. My. grandparents came running, you came. running.

>> and nobody there was no way to reenact. that or anything. >> It was tilted all of a sudden. >> No, cuz it was so forceful. That room. has weird energy. So see if you tell me. that and then say you have to go stay. overnight in that room. I would be like. hell no. >> Even though I say I don't believe like. stay in this purely haunted house, I am. not going to do that. >> Yeah. >> So I I guess on some level I. >> I fear I believe. >> Yeah. See, you have a you have a healthy. fear of them. >> I feel most skeptics feel that way. Yeah. >> You know.

>> Yeah. Healthy fear is there. >> Yeah. >> All right. So, bringing it back to. Bridgewater Triangle, >> if you were dropped into the Hakamok. Swamp, just right in the middle. [laughter] of it, would you rather find. giant crypted type footprints everywhere. or perfectly normal human footprints. that should not be there? >> I would uh. I was going to say crypted, but then my. daughter would just make fun of me. because she was when she was [snorts] a. lot younger, she used to love Bigfoot. stuff, and I was like, "Oh, there's no. such thing as Bigfoot." And she gets so.

mad at me. Um, what would I ra I mean I guess I would. rather see the crypted. I mean that. would be so cool be like to be wrong and. be like oh wow there is this weird giant. eight bigfoot thing that runs around. >> Scary. >> I was going to say who wants to come. across a serial killer in the woods. No. one. >> Like I don't want to come across a. random person in the middle of the Hawk. [laughter] swamp. >> It's my worst nightmare. >> I'd much rather run into Bigfoot. >> Just be one with Bigfoot at that point. >> Yeah. Truly. >> Yeah. Like take on their customs and. everything.

>> I'm ready. Yeah. >> Let's go. I love it. >> Start knocking on trees with rocks. Communicate with. >> other hair really long. Get crazy with. it. >> We could bond. >> Yeah. Hell yeah. That's what I'm doing. [laughter]. >> I like it. >> All right. Would you rather have Wifred. plan your wedding or host your funeral? >> Oh. Oh jeez. Well, it seems like family. and loved ones are both in danger, in. jeopardy in both scenarios. >> That's true, right? That's very true. >> Oh, >> at least she doesn't have to be at your. wedding. >> I'm going to be really selfish. I'd say.

plan my funeral because I'm already. dead. >> There you go. >> Like if it was my wedding, there's a. chance that I could be one of one of. >> Yeah, the red wedding. Yeah, >> that's true, >> right? I don't want my wedding to be a. bummer. My my. >> funeral's already going to be a bummer. So, she could just make it more of a. bummer. I guess. >> she might live it up even. >> Yeah, [clears throat] that's true. Yeah. >> And you just don't have to deal with the. aftermath. So, it's nice to not have to. clean up after her. >> Yeah. >> You know, I feel that, too. I feel her. wedding plans would be a little too. macob for me. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, she can do my funeral. >> I agree. So, back to back to some. ghosties. Would you rather be haunted by. a Puritan ghost who judges everything. you do [laughter] or a Victorian ghost. who constantly corrects your etiquette? >> Uh, >> both horrific. Yeah, you might go. Victorian because. >> Yeah, >> the etiquette stuff doesn't bother me. Probably much to the grin of some people. that know me. [laughter]. It'd be easy to laugh off that ghost.

The etiquette ghost. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I feel like Ma is kind of an etiquette. ghost. [laughter]. Who is that? So, >> so I'll just take that. It's I'd be used. to it. >> Same. Because the Puritan ghost. >> Yeah. >> would make me create like again I I'll. take the 1692 Puritan ghost that like. hangs for a second and just tells me. things. You got to go after that. >> Yeah. >> I can't. And I would I mean just to take. the logic out further like if the. Puritan ghost is telling me not to do. things. >> It's like well if there's a Puritan.

ghost maybe. >> you know the god is their god. Like. maybe [ __ ] I shouldn't be doing this. stuff. You mess with my head. >> That's true. That's true. >> That's a really good point. I can ignore. the etiquette. But like the puritans. like you're going to go to hell if you. do this, this, and this. >> You're like, maybe I am. >> That just becomes like OCD. >> Yeah, >> that that becomes too existential for me. and I I would start losing my mind, I. think. For sure. >> Yeah. Victorian etiquette ghost for. sure. >> Yeah. And and after reading this book, you could just be like, you're gross. So. >> yeah, why are you telling me this? >> Did you unwrap a mummy? Okay.

>> Yeah, we'll unwrap a mummy. >> All right. You are dropped into the. middle of the Bridgewater uh. Bridgewwater triangle at midnight. You. can choose one companion. A ghost. hunter, a cryptozoolologist, a priest, a witch, or Stephen King. Who. [laughter] do you choose? >> Um, I've Stephen and I have exchanged a. bunch of emails, but I've never met him. in person. It'd be kind of fun to be in. the woods with Stephen. >> Hell yeah. >> Hope he's okay with that. I don't know. if he would want to be in the woods. [laughter] Does. >> he want to be in the woods? >> He gets popped in there no matter what.

>> Yeah, he's just there. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Stephen. >> Yeah. Me and Stephen. >> Yeah, >> that'd be Yeah, that's definitely for. sure. Yeah. >> Yeah. That's your choice, too. >> That was my choice. I [laughter] was. like, because I could be my own ghost. hunter. Like, I don't I don't hunt with. that. >> A cryptozoolologist, I feel like, would. just be like, "Oh, look, that's. Bigfoot." And I'd be like, "No, I know.". Like, >> I've done my own research. >> That's a Pacqua. I know. I've researched. this. >> I'm from here. >> A priest? >> No. No. [laughter]. >> No. Thank you. >> A witch. >> We are. >> Yeah. I was like, I could be my own. witch, so that's fine. And then I was.

like, Stephen King in the middle of the. Bridgewater Triangle or like the Hawk. Swamp. I was like, just start writing. together. >> I was going to say then maybe we could. be like, let's come up with a story. together experience. >> Yeah. Just to have a hang with Stephen. King in a weird space. >> I mean, >> Stephen here's just think he's going to. start writing Misery, too. >> Yeah. [laughter]. >> Oh my god. >> We're like, we want to be in the middle. of the woods with you. >> God damn it. It's like, oh, help. I love. it. [laughter]. >> Yeah, that's what What is yours?

>> Oh, good call. >> Yeah. >> Um, I feel the same as you. I don't I. can be a ghost hunter. Like all the same. reasoning and I've never met Stephen. King. So. >> yeah, why not? >> I hang with him. I have a lot of. questions. >> I want to know about Mambbo number five. >> Yeah, I really. >> became obsessed with that song. >> Yep. >> What if he like tried to be like a real. woodsman? Was really bad at it. It's. like, hey, you know, we can eat this. mushroom. Trust me, [laughter] Stephen. King. Like, oh my god, I'm dying. >> Trust me, it's there's some potential. rat falls to it. I suppose. >> he's silly because I might believe him.

Like if he ends the the thing with trust. me, I'm Stephen King. I might be like, "Yeah, you are right." So, you are. Stephen King. >> Well, then you just be tripping in the. woods. That's kind of fun. >> with Stephen King. >> Yeah. Who can say they did that? >> Definitely would choose him over Grady. Hendris. Like Grady would be cool. >> We're not plopping. >> Be complaining about like bugs and. [laughter] Yeah. >> Ask you to hold his his blazer. His. >> I know he's not used to New England. >> Well, like his like lime color blazer. might help us see as we like work work. our way through. >> It could be like a flare. >> That could be that could be. advantageous. That could,

>> you know, >> he's going to be he's going to listen to. this and be like, "Damn, I thought we. had fun on that.". >> I know. [laughter]. Well, I guess I would be joining them. again. >> Yeah. Real nice. >> Barring them for my next event. >> Well, speaking of Grady. >> Yeah. >> Last question. Would you rather fight. one Stephen King clown? [laughter] So, Pennywise essentially. Yep. >> Or one Grady Hendris possessed IKEA. product or horror store product. [sighs and gasps]. >> Uh, I think I'd go with the horror. store. I don't know. I think the clown. is, you know, too morphy.

>> I've read horror store was a while ago. I don't have as much memory as what they. could do. >> besides like suck me into the store into. like [laughter] the other dimension. >> I know. But I could I feel like I could. fight a a bookcase name. What's it. called? Like Benny [laughter] or. something like that. >> Yeah. It's hard to be scared of. >> of Benny. >> Of Benny. >> That's true. >> If that's my I have some of those in my. house. >> Yeah. >> Now I'm going to look at them as ants. >> and put your dukes up. >> Yeah. Square up. >> I see that. I thought this was easy and. I think it still kind of is. No, it's. easy for me. >> Like Pennywise is too much like every.

fear of yours he can just become. So. like. >> no. And especially like the big spider. No thank you. >> But I'm also like it's also one of my. biggest fears to be locked in an IKEA. Like when it when you get lost in that. loop and you can't find the right way. >> Yeah. >> That's horror. >> See for me I'm going to find the. meatballs. >> You are going to find the meatballs. So. there I'll survive. That's actually. smart. >> Thank you. >> They have cinnamon buns, too. I think we. do. So that okay. >> Yeah, they have good stuff. >> I'll fight. Grady has survival products. Yeah, that is survival.

>> Yeah, it scares their Penny Wise scares. the show me. So. >> I think colloally I think it is it. >> I [laughter] think everybody thinks of. it as it. >> I know. It's so true. >> But yeah, that's our would you rathers. >> You survived it. You killed it, >> right? Yeah. I think I got too mathy. with it with my logic. But no, I like. that your math teacher. You have. >> That's smart. You're only recently. retired. It's not. >> I haven't gotten rid of it yet. going to. leech out every once in a while. And. honestly, Grady got very into it as. well. He thought through them. >> I know. I heard him. He asked for. extras. >> Yeah. He was like, "Let's go." We had to.

get them on the fly. >> I know. We're like, "Oh my god. Oh [ __ ]. [laughter] We have more." All right. >> I was like, "Shit.". >> But I think that went well. I think we. all survived that. Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. No, this was that was a blast. >> Thank you for being here. >> Thanks for joining us. >> My ab my absolute pleasure. >> This was so much fun. We've been so. excited for this. And. >> Oh, same. Well, thank you. >> Thank you. And everybody read Paul's. books. Yes, please. >> go watch the adaptations. They're. amazing. Um, and Stephen King, don't. send us a cease synthesis. [laughter]. >> We just want to be friends, Steve.

>> Just in the woods. >> Yeah, we just want to hang in the woods. with you. That's all. >> Okay, >> you can go anytime. >> Yeah, that's all. So, before we go, >> yeah, but Dreaming of Electric Sheep. coming out June 30th. Go get it. You. heard what it's about. It's going to be. awesome. And Paul, if you have anything. else to plug or you want to further. plug? >> Um, I guess I would just I don't know. when this podcast is going to run, but. uh on July 2nd since we mentioned Grady, like he and I will be at the Strand New. York City bookstore, >> you know, trying to sell this book.

>> Go there. [laughter]. >> I've tried to convince him I'll wear the. suit and he'll wear a t-shirt with. tattoos. >> We should wear the lime [clears throat]. green blazer, [laughter]. >> Luke. >> I love that. >> I love it. So, go check them out. Go see. where Paul's gonna be and go get his. books. >> or else. >> Yeah, >> we'll fight you. All right. [laughter]. >> Well, guys, thank you for listening. We. hope you keep listening and we hope you. >> keep it. >> weird, but not so weird that you don't go buy. false books. >> Do it. >> You better. [laughter].

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