Episode 788: The Matamoros Devil Murders (Part 2)

Hey weirdos, I'm Elena. I'm Ash and this. is morbid. Did you just hear my stomach rumble? Rumble rumble, it's a. It's usually my stomach that's growling. >> I don't know what's going on. >> Mine's loud. I just had a tuna sub. >> You did? So I'm digesting. >> It looked wild but I.

>> It wasn't good. >> Wasn't good? >> No. So we'll see how that pans out. >> [ __ ]. >> I know. It wasn't bad. It was just like. >> It just didn't hit like you wanted it. to. >> No. >> That's the worst. >> Yeah, I know. >> I hate that. >> Hopefully I don't have to run out of. here in the middle of this. >> Hopefully. >> Imagine. >> Yeah, you won't know listener. Yeah, so that's my lunch. >> That's That's my lunch. >> This [ __ ] over here just shoveled some. cheese fries in. She said whatever, I'm. having cheese fries. >> I did. >> I won't be joining you. >> wanted some. I was craving some since.

I've been sick and then I was like give. me it. >> She wasn't sure how soon she could have. cheese fries post narwhal. >> Yeah, so I just I went for it. >> And I feel good about it. >> You know. >> Not only that, can I just call you out. full full blast? Spicy chicken nuggets. >> Yeah. >> Who is she? How do you live this life? Who lives this way? I would if I could. But I cannot. >> I got a 6-in tuna sub and I'm like. hopefully that's chill. >> Hopefully that's all right. >> Hopefully that's.

>> A there. >> Uh yeah, I don't know. I I'm like my. dad. >> I know, that [ __ ] can eat. anything. >> my dad. I could just. eat things at all hours of night. >> I know, you're a crazy girl. >> Spicy doesn't really bother me too much. >> spicy but spicy does not love me. >> And that's the saddest thing. >> I know. I've never heard. >> Because I did I do go spicy sometimes. like last night. >> pay for it. >> I got these little like um like tater. tot mac and cheese things that had. buffalo sauce on them. They. >> were good. That sounds good. You know. what though? I paid for that.

I had to order Tums at 11:00 p.m. But they make chewable Tums. And let me tell you, when I got those, Drew said, "Aren't they all chewable?". And I said, "I meant chewy." Like chewy like like. gummy. Yeah, they're so good. I had to stop. myself from eating the whole thing. No, there there's a whole warning label. on the back. There's a whole warning. that you can't You're not supposed to. have more than six in like a 24-hour. period. I had three.

It's like that um Melissa McCarthy in in. Bridesmaids. I took nine. I think I've overcommitted, but you with. chewy Tums. I took nine. So, for uh you know, in business, um buy The Butcher's Legacy. You can. pre-order it anywhere you want to. pre-order it. I'm going to finish it. this weekend. Yeah, there's a lot of. There's some There's some little. announcements and little fun things that. might be happening in the pre-order. space, so keep an eye on my socials.

next week. Yeah. Because there's some. cool stuff I get to tell you. Perhaps a. new series started. Perhaps a new series. that I'm going to do on socials. I don't. know. Maybe. Could be. Who could be. sure? We're really good at um Easter. eggs. Oh, yeah. So, just you know, keep. an eye. Keep an eye, you know? Keep two. And. maybe it'll make you want to pre-order. because some incentives might be coming. your way to pre-order, so. Period. a. try. Give it a try. Hold on to that. receipt maybe. I don't know. Uh but yeah, just go pre-order it wherever you want.

butcherlegacy.com. Yeah. It's really. really [ __ ] good. Thank you. And I. know I'm biased, but like I'm not even. being biased right now. I like this one. I love the first two. I like this one a. million times more. That honestly I love. hearing that. I like it's the vibe is. perfect. Yay. And we're back in New. Orleans. I think that's important to. say. in New Orleans. And in New Orleans, like it's. the. >> vibe and it's like Halloween time. >> I'm excited about it. >> It's the fall time. Like these are the. things you got to tell people.

>> It's true. I know. I'm not good at. selling my own book. >> I'll help you. >> I appreciate it. That's why I need you. >> We're in the Morgan law in this one it. feels. >> There's a lot of Morgan in this one. There's a This one was the one I had a. lot of fun writing this one. >> You can tell it it comes through. >> And this one and that's I love hearing. that. And yeah, this one was really fun. This. one was like uh. a long time coming. A lot of weird. research for this one. >> I'm sure. >> Yeah. >> I have to admit something.

I love Jeremy. >> Honestly, that's okay. I kind of. >> so wrong. >> I kind of wanted that. I wanted people. to. >> him but like. I want to punch him. >> Like I wanted people to not want him to. go away. Yeah, but like. hate him. >> I'm like a little upset that he's behind. bars. >> Yeah. Like you just let him live. >> Just let him live, you know? >> Duh, obviously. >> but yeah. >> But he's fake so just like don't get mad. at me for saying that. >> Yeah, he's not real. >> And I'm rooting for Wren at the same. time. >> Of course you are. >> Like I want her to kick him in the. kneecaps.

>> We love Wren. >> I love her so much. >> My girl. >> She's such a baddie. >> And she's friends with Kay Scarpetta. >> I know. >> Did you guys Did you hear that? >> I know. >> Did you hear that? Like I'll never get. over that that Patricia Cornwell was. like, "I think Kay and Wren are are. really good buds.". >> I think they are, too. >> And honestly, like. may maybe that's true. Maybe. And maybe. if you pre-order the book, you can find. out more about that. >> Maybe you can find out more about that. >> All right, I think we plugged the [ __ ]. That was a That was a best plug, yeah. >> I think we did good, guys. >> I think we need to plug a little more.

like that cuz a lot of times we're just. like order it. >> Yeah. >> I don't know, but we we don't give any. details. >> And I realized that's not good enough of. an incentive to do anything. It's just. be like pre-order this. Like you're. probably like, "Shut the [ __ ] up. What. do you mean?". Like I get it. So, hopefully that. tickled your pickle a little bit. I hope. so. Yeah. Mikey said it didn't tickle his pickle. Mikey doesn't like He gave us a thumbs. down. I think that phrase is so funny. I do. too. What do you like tickle your fancy? Oh, he big eyes. No, he said yes. Or.

like blow your skirt up. Does that blow. your skirt up? >> Drew loves to say that. He. >> That didn't really blow my skirt up. I. love that a lot. What are you going to. say? >> Tickle your pickle sounds really kind of. perverse to me. It makes me. uncomfortable when you say it out of. your mouth. >> I'm going to keep doing it then. I love. that a lot. It does sound weird. >> It does. >> Um, another thing that we should. probably plug. Don't stop your timer. just yet, Carl, cuz we're still going. Not yet, Jason. Yeah, Jason.

Was it actually Jason? I don't know. Ah. We are doing a [ __ ] Radio City show. >> Yes, in case you didn't know. >> In June, June 27th. June 27th, I should say that. confidently. That's the date of my show. And yours? >> Going to be awesome. >> booked a special guest and I fear you're. going to [ __ ] your dicks. >> Yeah, so you got to get excited. >> You got to book your tickets. We just. booked Um, can I just say something? We're having dresses made in Romania. >> Yeah, and we've never done anything like.

that. >> We're getting Romanian dresses up in. this [ __ ] And we're going to shout out. the maker once everything is like. settled. Coolest people. >> Yeah. >> Coolest people. >> Truly. >> I can't wait to like sing their praises. Honestly. >> Because let me tell you, book talk girlies and and friends, you'll love. this gal. You'll love her. >> So. >> Just Just putting it out there. >> I don't want to say too much. >> Yeah. But you could So, you would need. to get your ticket. >> Yep. >> Book your hotel. >> There's not too many tickets left, so go.

get them. >> Yeah, and you know what? You don't even. have to stay in New York for the night. You could take a train. >> Yeah, you can. There and back. >> The train is nice. >> I don't know how late it runs, but. >> Yeah, it's okay. >> Yeah, whatever. >> You know, wander the streets a little. bit. >> I wouldn't go that far. That's insane. >> Wander the streets until dawn and then. leave. >> What the [ __ ]. >> That's actually everything we tell. people not to do, [ __ ]. >> I'm just kidding. >> All right, Carl, Jason, hit him. All. right, tell them the number. >> Let's go. So, we finished part one.

and the Mexican authorities had raided. the Hernández ranch and took multiple. people into custody. Everybody was being. very cocky, seemed to kind of think they. were untouchable, weren't like really. saying anything. aside from the caretaker, >> Yes. Domingo Bustamante. >> Uh he pretty quickly folded and told. investigators everything he knew. including the fact that a young American. man had been held at the ranch. And when. he was shown a photo of Mark Kilroy, he. confirmed, "Yes, that was the man he was. talking about.".

>> I fear this is going to get really bad. >> I would like to warn you at the top, this is a very and I will I'll give you. a another little warning right when. we're about to get into it. This is a. very gruesome case. >> Yes. And from what I remember, yes. >> What happened to Mark Kilroy is. unimaginable. It's heartbreaking and I hate that his. family. has to know that. >> Yeah. >> Like it's awful. But I do think like we. were saying in part one, it's such an. important story to tell. >> Yeah. >> because these cases do become cautionary.

tales and if it helps one person be a. little more. >> Yeah. >> you know, vigilant while they're. traveling then just have more knowledge. going in. >> Yeah. >> So, Domingo Bustamante's statement broke. the case wide open. Less than an hour. later, little Serafin was dragged from. his cell and he was brought into one of. the interrogation rooms. If you. remember, he was the one who blew. through the checkpoint. >> Yep. >> This time, Commander Benitez was in no. mood for the 20-year-old's cocky. attitude and self-certainty. He had had. enough. >> Yeah, I can't say I blame him.

>> So, after slamming the soda water and. hot sauce concoction down on the table, he started rattling off every single. detail they had learned about the. operation at the ranch from the moment. that little Serafin had blown through. that checkpoint all the way up to what. had just happened in Domingo Benitez's. interrogation. He was like, "We know. everything, so you might as well talk.". >> You Yeah.". >> Like you're not having divine. protection. >> No. >> It might have been the bottle of soda. water and the hot sauce on the table or. it might have just been Benitez's.

unwillingness to tolerate any more lies. Whatever it was, mystical protection or. not, little Serafin started talking. >> I feel like it was a good mix of all of. it, but I really think that soda bottle. >> Yeah. >> maybe pushed it over the edge. >> for sure be the hot sauce. >> would be it. >> The concoction of it all. So, he started. talking. He confirmed what the agents. already knew, that they were running the. drug smuggling ring out of the ranch, moving drugs back and forth between. Matamoros and Texas. And then he confirmed what they already. suspected. They had murdered Mark Kilroy at the.

ranch. He told the commander, "It was our. religion, our voodoo. We did it for. success. We did it for protection. He. told us killing would bring us power. He. told us our souls were dead. When that. happens, you can do anything to anyone.". >> But you shouldn't want to. >> No. And I want to point out, I know that. what we're talking about here is not. voodoo. >> Yeah. >> super educated. >> in voodoo at all, but that's a quote and. I know that I'm sure this is vastly. different what we're talking about today. than actual voodoo. >> Yeah, like that this is this was a quote.

from this person. >> Exactly. So, the interrogation took a little over. 5 hours and in that time Benitez and the. other agents in the room, they learned. everything that they wanted to know. about the smuggling operation, but also. a lot of stuff that they were not. prepared to hear. So, the interrogation. took a little over 5 hours and in that. time Benitez and the other agents, they. learned things that they needed to know, like about the smuggling operation and. everything going on in that department, but they also learned a lot of things. that they were not prepared for.

>> Yes, which I'm sure we are also not. going to be prepared for. Now, I'm going. to do my best to prepare you, but even. that will not be enough. >> Yeah. >> So, after the death of his uncle Saul. and his father, Serafin, little Serafin, and the remaining members of his. family's organization, they ended up. joining forces with another gang led by. El Padrino. That might sound familiar. >> Yes. >> El Padrino was referenced in that. wiretap call. >> Yep. >> So, El Padrino happened to be Adolfo. Constanzo, who we kind of touched on. briefly in part one, but we'll get more.

into who he is in this part. >> Okay. >> And this is the final part, just so you. guys know. So, it was Constanzo who forced them to. adopt his religious practices, which. were. it was like a bizarre perversion of Palo. Mayombe, which was an Afro-Cuban. religion. It honors the dead and engages. in rituals that involve human bones and. some other things. >> Okay. >> Now, Serafin told the agents, "Adolfo's very. powerful, very smart. He runs our. business in Matamoros. He has. connections all over Mexico. Movie stars.

go to him. Congressmen.". So, this is like a well-connected guy. I. don't know if congressmen actually went. to him. That was alleged by not me. >> And when you hear that, you're like, "Oh. Okay. >> Period. >> Got it. >> And just to be clear again, like I'm. describ- I'm like naming specific. religions. Th- This, what we're talking. about today, it's not these religions. I. don't know a lot about these religions. >> are religions that they referenced, not. us. >> Exactly. But in like to be clear, >> they're saying it is,

>> I'm sure it's not that at all. Like I. said, it's like a perversion, but just I. don't want anybody to think that I think. that's what it is, or or you either. >> So, it was clear to to Benitez and the. others that Serafin had a lot of respect. for Constanzo, but there was also a lot. more to it. It seemed like he almost. worshipped him and also was terrified of. him all at the same time. >> Yeah, does seem like that. >> Yeah, he kept on telling investigators, "We did whatever he asked. It's our. religion. And if we didn't do as he. said, he would kill us or worse.

>> That's so scary. >> To hear like it's our religion, so we. did it without being without question. It's like that's not what religion is. >> No, not at all. >> what it's supposed to be. And I for me, the scariest part of that is he would. kill us or worse. >> Yeah, it's like what the [ __ ] does that. mean? What's worse? >> Now, among the things Constanzo asked of. his men was to procure sacrifices for a. a legua, which is that trickster god. that we referenced in part one. That god would give powers and. protections for in exchange for.

offerings. >> Which I wonder and again, I don't know. anything about this, so this is me just. wondering out loud. >> A trickster god to me seems like you. can't trust that. >> I would think. >> Cuz a trickster god is usually like. >> Tricky. >> Yeah, like they're tricky. Like they're. you don't know if they're being. for real or not. So, it's just I it's an. interesting thing here. >> Yeah, that's the thing. >> so heavily on it. >> I know. It well, and that's the thing. Like Adolfo. >> Constanzo. >> Yeah. >> He he modeled his whole life over what. he thought was appeasing this god.

>> Yeah, it's just interesting. >> Now, one of those {quote} and {unquote}. offerings ended up being Mark Kilroy. >> Oh, that's awful. >> According to Serafin, Constanzo had. instructed him to go into Matamoros the. night that Mark got missing and he was. to find somebody to sacrifice to the. gods. This was not the first time they. had done this. He said, "Adolfo told us told us we had. to go get a white male, a young white. male, like a spring breaker.". >> Oh, wow. >> were like legitimately on the hunt for. >> For [ __ ]. >> Mark Kilroy.

It was getting late and Hernandez and. another gang member, Malio Torres, still. hadn't found anybody. And then the bars. let out like I talked about and the. streets were flooded with people. Serafin was standing on the street and. he actually saw Mark get separated from. his friends. >> Cuz when he had to like relieve himself. >> Yep, and they pounced on that. They. pretended to sympathize with him. They. offered, "Oh, we'll drive you back. across the border. We'll get you back to your friends, no. problem.". >> And this is where things start to get.

really rough, but I there's another part. where they do too, so I'm going to warn. you for both. So, this is when they kidnap Mark. They. jumped him. They tied a blindfold around. his eyes. They duct-taped his mouth shut. and just wrestled him into the Chevy. Suburban. And as they stood there catching their. breath, he actually managed to get out. of the car and make a run for it. >> god. Which I think is one of the worst. parts of this story. >> Oh. >> But they chased him down and dragged him. back to the truck. So, they brought Mark back to the ranch. and as Bustamante, the caretaker, had.

indicated, they left him in the truck. overnight and they promised him that as. long as he complied with their demands, he was not going to be hurt, which was. never the truth. >> No. >> He was. kidnapped to be a sacrifice. >> This is where it's going to get really. bad, just so everybody knows. Like. trigger warning. The next day, Adolfo Constanzo arrived. at the ranch with about 12 of his. followers and they assembled inside the. shack that they used as kind of like a. makeshift temple like according to them. The outbuilding was actually so.

innocuous that agents who were involved. in the raid and who had been to the. property passed by it countless times. when they'd gone to the ranch and they. had no idea what had taken place inside. >> And if they'd only gone in there, they. would have seen. For sure. >> They may have They would have found. evidence of what had occurred. Yeah. Yeah. >> in there. >> So, once everybody was gathered in the. shack, somebody brought Mark from the. car. They threw him down onto a tarp. that had been laid out in out on the. inside. He stayed blindfolded with his mouth.

taped shut, but they stripped him nude. And then Constanzo beat, raped, and. tortured him before finally killing him. with a brutal blow to the head using a. machete. >> Oh my god. >> This is it's We're still not past the. worst of it. >> When Mark was dead, Constanzo reached. into the wound that the machete had made. in his skull and pulled out pieces of. his brain. >> Oh my This is what they mean when they. say killed or worse. >> Yes.

So, the pieces of his brain were then. placed into a metal cauldron-like. receptacle that Constanzo referred to as. the Nganga. Um according to Serafin, this was where. the gods received their offerings. He. told investigators he wanted to put his. brains in because he was going to give. the spirits more power. >> Holy [ __ ]. >> I'm sure that this religion is not this. >> I I don't know anything about it, but. holy [ __ ]. >> Now, when they had finished the. quote-unquote ritual, Constanzo. instructed the men to remove Mark's body.

and bury him on the property. They dismembered the body before the. burial, and when Serafin was asked if. that was part of the ritual, he was. very blunt and told them no, it just. made his body easier to bury. Oh. Yeah. >> Jesus. >> Uh Mark's grave was marked by a wire. sticking out of the ground, and the. other end of that wire was tied to his. spinal column. so that when his body had completely. decomposed, quote, the cult could pull. out the vertebrae to make a necklace.

>> Holy [ __ ]. This is a human being. How are you this devoid. of humanity? This is a human being who. is going out for probably his last. spring break with his best friends from. high school. Who got snatched off the streets and. this is what happened. >> I just don't get how you get here. Like. I don't get how you get so devoid of. anything that makes a human being a. human being. I don't understand how that.

just seeps out of you or was never there. to begin with. >> scary to me. Like there's one person. involved in this who we'll talk a little. bit about who she was before she got. involved in this. And she was just normal. Like she was. somebody that you might have hung out. with after class or. >> Wow. >> known or like a friend of a friend. >> Holy [ __ ]. >> And it's That's the thing. It's like how. do people become this deranged. the time frame that seems like. overnight? >> Yeah. It's so incredible. >> just start seeing your fellow human.

being as a sacrifice? As nothing. As something that's not you. Like I don't I don't understand that. I'll never understand that. >> I think it's power and I think in this. case drugs. >> Holy [ __ ]. >> So the next day Benita sat down with. Serafin again and this time he recounted. the details with. the details of his confession for a. video camera. When the interview came to an end he. told the investigators, "You won't be. able to keep us here. You'll see.".

Okay. >> Really? >> I don't know about that. >> think that your gods are just going to. get you out of here for ripping. somebody's brain matter out? >> So chilling though, how confident they. are. >> Yeah. >> That this is real. >> Yep. >> they will not be punished for this. >> Yep. >> So later that afternoon the feds swarmed. the ranch for a second time arresting. anybody who was found on the property. and they set up a perimeter to search. for more bodies because it turned out. that while Mark was definitely the most. high-profile victim of the cult, he was.

not the only person who had been killed. by these deranged animals. By the time they finish search finish. searching the property investigators. would exhume 14 bodies. >> Holy [ __ ]. >> 14 bodies of other men all of various. ages. So they stood back while Serafin worked. at gunpoint digging up one body after. another from shallow graves. Like Mark Kilroy a lot of the other men. had been chosen mostly for their. physical traits or characteristics that.

Constanzo believed would please the. spirits. Including one boy who was a member of. the Hernandez family. who had been sacrificed when he was. mistaken for somebody else. Wow. One of their very own family. members and we'll get into that a little. bit. Wow. According to the medical. examiner, all of these 14 boys and men. had been killed within the last 9 months. and in each case the cause of death had. been a blow from a sharp object which. was presumably that machete.

>> Holy [ __ ]. >> Everybody showed signs of having been. tortured and sexually assaulted and all. had similar wounds to the ones that Mark. Kilroy had. >> Jesus. >> Now while several agents guarded Serafin. and Martina as they worked on earth the. bodies, countless others combed over the. property just collecting any evidence. they could. When they came to the shed, apparently. even the most hardened detectives who. had spent years hunting down Mexico's. most dangerous criminals, they were all. shocked by what they described.

unanimously as a human slaughterhouse. >> That is the scariest thing I've ever. heard. >> Yeah. Now Benitez, I think I mentioned. it in part one briefly, he had grown up. in a traditional indigenous community so. he was aware of some of the. characteristics of these different. religions and whatnot. >> and stuff. >> And folklore, yeah. So he had he grew up hearing about all. this and that included all manner of. spirits, magic, you name it. >> Yeah. >> A lot of times he was teased at the. precinct for having such a strong belief.

in the supernatural but this was the one. time that most of the men who were. working under him were incredibly. grateful for his superstitious. upbringing. When he learned of the potential cult. related activity in the murders, he. actually called on a doctor, a professor. of anthropology, Dr. Anthony Zavaleta. and he was an expert in Afro-Caribbean. religions. So if anybody was going to help them. navigate this whole unfamiliar world, it. was going to be him. >> Yeah. >> Now even with all of his experience,

Zavaleta was horrified by what he saw on. the ranch that day. Oh, I can imagine. He told a reporter, "I've I have 40. years studying brujeria or witchcraft, and I've been to places and seen things. that ordinarily would make your hair. stand on end, but I was not ready for. what I encountered that day.". >> think anybody could be. >> How I That's How do you ever prepare. yourself for that? >> realm of. anything you could conjure. >> It really does. So, like the agents on. scene, Zavaleta was most disturbed by. the shack where.

>> Constanzo and his cult members performed. there. I hate to even call them rituals. because. >> where they murdered people is what we. should say. >> murders. Yeah. >> In the cauldron situated in the center. of the shack, there was what still. appeared to be brain matter along with. quote other organs and a mixture of slop. and blood, just still sitting there. >> This is like [ __ ] you would hear about. in a horror movie that you're like, "That's too far.". >> Yep. >> But this is real. Like this really. happened. >> This is real. Now later, when the contents were. analyzed, they would be identified as a.

combination of human brains, animal. parts, chicken bones, and other natural. debris. >> Wow. >> Upon leaving the shack, Zavaleta. approached Fuentes and told him, "This. is Palo Mayombe. You need to look for a. cubano. This is a Cuban doing this. It's. not a Mexican.". >> Oh. >> And that was actually valuable. information. >> Okay. >> Now, like we know from part one, the local. authorities in Matamoros, they were. familiar with the Hernandez family, and. we went over that. So, when they learned. of the activity at the ranch that. involved Serafin and the other members.

of the gang, most, if not all of the. names were known to them. >> Yeah. >> All except one that kept coming up over. and over again, especially after Serafin. gave his confession, Adolfo Constanzo. El Padrino. >> El Padrino, exactly. >> So, Adolfo de Jesus Constanzo, he was. born November 1st, 1962 in Miami, Florida to a 15-year-old single mother. >> 15? Holy [ __ ]. >> 15-year-old. Her name was Delia. Gonzalez, and she was a Cuban immigrant. So, obviously he too is Cuban.

>> Yeah. >> So, >> So, >> it's exactly what the the doctor said. >> Sorry, there might be a plane landing on. my house. >> I know. That was low. >> So, like many single parents Delia spent. a lot of her life just struggling to. support her family. >> Because she didn't just have uh. Adolfo as a son, she had two other. children, too. She baptized and raised her kids as. Catholics, but she also exposed them to. voodoo and other Afro-Caribbean. uh religions that would eventually have, as we know, a very profound effect on. Adolfo specifically. As a child, he was.

remembered as a very serious boy. People. said he never laughed and that he was. obsessively neat. >> Eek. >> Like. kind of like OCD, it seemed like he had. >> Author Jim Schutze wrote, "Even as a. very little boy, he was meticulous in. ways that seemed strange to the adults. around him.". >> I'm sure he was not getting a lot of. support for that. >> No, I don't think so. >> Yeah. >> At an early age, he had a preoccupation. with his clothing and his appearance. specifically. And everybody from. neighbors to strangers though, they were.

constantly commenting on his looks. They. thought he was beautiful. >> Oh, wow. >> Uh obviously he was not. As he grew. older, the obsessive behaviors and his. fixation on his appearance kind of. became one of the things that he got. teased for the older he got, which. inevitably brought on the more spiteful. and aggressive side of his personality. That's when it really started to come. out. Uh Jim Schutze wrote, "On a few. occasions when fellow students made the. mistake of teasing Adolfo about his. weird habits, the response was swift and. unnerving. No one in Cuban Miami needed.

more than a few seconds to figure out. the meaning of bloody animal heads and. other signs that appeared the next day. at the front door of the offending. schoolmate's home.". >> Holy [ __ ]. >> So, if you were. >> I know I'm saying that a lot, but that's. really that like I'm just incredulous. >> If you teased him, he left a bloody. animal head staked outside your door. >> And was anybody thinking that like. hey, these are red flags? I guess it was the '60s, question mark? Woah.

>> I don't know. I don't know what the. excuses here for that. >> I don't know what decade that would not. be a red flag to me. >> I don't know. Holy [ __ ]. >> I I'm sure it was a red flag to others. >> Earth. >> Like that's the I'm Game of Thrones is. really only where that would be. acceptable, I think. >> And even then it was kind of red flag. there. >> then you're like, oh, something wrong. here. >> Yeah, I feel like this is going to go. awry. >> Yeah. >> And it sure does. >> Holy [ __ ]. >> Now, under normal circumstances, his. strange behaviors aside from his. retaliation, just like the fact that he. was very meticulous and that kind of. thing. >> Yeah. >> may have just been written off as like a.

phase that kids go through, but to his. devoutly religious mother and the. superstitious community that she was. kind of specifically steeped in, it was. something else. They saw his uncommon. beauty and his ability to catch the. attention of strangers and his. organization and all of it as some kind. of divine gift. That's what they always. said, he had a divine gift. >> Okay. >> But at the same time, Shoots noted, most. of the people in Cuban Miami who were. around Adolfo and his mother for any. length of time knew exactly what this.

little boy's demeanor meant and it. frightened them. >> Mhm. >> So, there weren't there were people who. saw these red flags. >> Yeah, there were people who were like, this is not right. >> It wasn't going unnoticed, but. apparently they had a strong community. around them that was willing to protect. him. >> Yeah. >> and maybe was unwilling to believe that. he was responsible for these kinds of. things. >> Yeah. >> Also, neighbors thought that it was a. little suspicious how Adolfo's father. just disappeared one day, about a year. after they arrived in Miami. >> Huh. >> Yeah. His mother and his grandmother.

said that the father had just run away, but there were always whispers of. Delia's practices of black magic, like. how her new husband's business had gone. from failing to prosperous seemingly. overnight and how that same husband. seemed to be afraid of his eldest. stepson, Adolfo. >> Oh. >> And the spiritual role that his mom. almost seemed to be grooming him for. This was all talk in the town. >> Yeah. >> So, when Delia's successful husband died. from a sudden mysterious illness in 1960. uh 1973,

>> Huh. >> he left her and the children with a. pretty decent inheritance that meant. that they didn't really have to work. anymore to support themselves. Now, that didn't mean that Adolfo was. now free to just like focus on regular. things like schoolwork or spending time. with friends. His mother assured him. that he was much too special to worry. about those mundane things. >> Yeah, we don't we don't need to bother. ourselves with things like friends. >> Yeah, no. Why would you do that? >> human things, you. >> No. >> Now, here's the weird thing. Speaking. like it I want I want to know what she. considered mundane and like not mundane.

because she always loved movies, especially since she was like a kid in. Cuba. She was very obsessed with like. movie stars and going to the movies, that kind of thing. >> Yeah. >> And she loved how American movie stars. in particular like commanded attention. and wielded power with the public. She. found that fascinating. >> I'm like, movies aren't mundane to you, but friends are? Like, what? >> That doesn't make sense. So, you know. what? There was this era though that I. feel like movie stars were otherworldly. >> Yes, I can see that. >> Like, it was a totally different kind of. >> era. >> thing.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, she was confident though that her. son Adolfo could command that same. power. She said, "Movie star vibes. Just. stop putting bloody animals on people. though.". >> there there is that one little thing. though that he does. >> wasn't worried that it was like going to. be a hindrance though. >> Yeah, she's not worried about that. >> Yeah, don't worry about that. >> Don't worry about the mundane things, you know? >> Now, by the time he was in his. mid-teens, uh Adolfo was providing. spiritual services to the more. superstitious believers in the Miami. Cuban community. Which, if he wasn't who he was, would be. quite fascinating.

>> Yeah, for sure. >> Like, I'm into spiritual services. >> Yeah, let's go. >> Not these kind, for sure. >> No. >> Uh Delia assured everybody that her son. had great powers and he could see things. others couldn't. He could communicate. with the spirit world. At first, it was just like the. occasional housewife who went by Delia's. to sit with Adolfo and have her fortune. told, which like cool. But as months passed and word got out, the visitors became more frequent and. they brought money. Mhm. So he was. really making money at doing this. Now. when he graduated high school in 1980. with all his supposed gifts, he saw no.

reason to go to college. He's gifted. >> No, that's mundane. >> Yeah, college? But. instead, he worked occasional odd jobs. to make a little extra money beyond what. he got from the fortune telling, but he. mostly spent his time hanging out with. his growing group of followers and. exploring his sexuality with men and. women. Now on a trip to Mexico City in 1981, he. was actually arrested for shoplifting, which is wild because he had money. Not only is he making money, he was left. an inheritance where he really didn't. have to work anymore.

>> Oh yeah, that's that's like thrill. >> He just liked money and thrill. And it also it is the thrill of it. because it became a regular habit. throughout the '80s. >> because remember he doesn't like mundane. [ __ ] and he's been told all his life, you are not on this earth for mundane. [ __ ] So he's looking for that extra. thing. >> Well, and you're gifted, you're. talented. Like you're not you're you're. protected, I'm sure he thought, by these. these gods that he's speaking to. So even though he had this like. shoplifting stint that he was actually. arrested for, he still managed to find.

success in Mexico, especially when he was offered a. modeling job. >> Mhm. >> To Delia, the job was further. confirmation that he had the power and. influence she always thought. So she. moved with him to Mexico City to in. hopes that he would fulfill his destiny. and she could be there to watch. >> Yeah, of course. >> Now he actually did find a lot of. success as a model, but it was his. supposed supernatural abilities that he. really became known for in Mexico City. first before he became known for what. he's known for now. >> Mhm. >> Eventually, he started to offer his. fortune telling services to the wealthy.

and elite of Mexico City. So when little. Serafine earlier was saying like movie. stars and congressmen, it could have been right here. >> Yeah, there you go. >> Now, his most popular services actually. weren't his fortunes, but instead became. his curses. >> Oh. >> He offered to put curses on people's. enemies for a price. >> That's such a bad vibes. >> It is. It's bad vibes. >> But this this service became. particularly popular, and it makes. sense, among the local drug dealers and.

the cartels. >> Yeah, I mean, that makes sense, for. >> perfect sense. Now, it's unclear how he really. eventually connected with these criminal. gangs along the border, but it was. probably the the services that he was. offering and his supposed gifts that. drew everybody to him. And he found them. to be easily manipulated through. superstition. So, he saw his niche. >> Yeah, of course. >> It's a horrible niche, but he identified. it. He's jumping into it. Now, in 1988, after Saul Hernandez and Serafin Senior. were killed, and the Hernandez operation. was in danger of falling apart, Elio.

Hernandez became the new de facto. leader. He was pretty much as ruthless. as his brother had been, his brother. Saul. Uh but he was still taking over an. organization that was on the brink of. collapse. So, he needed help. And he. figured what they really specifically. needed was good protection. And there was no better protection than. magic. So, Elio set out to find the one. that could guarantee their safety. And. it seems that he likely met Adolfo. Constanzo through Sara Maria Aldrete,

who I mentioned was um Adolfo's high. priestess. >> Oh, yes. >> in part one. She was a friend of Elios who dabbled in. black magic, and of course, as we know, she knew Adolfo. Now, at 22 years old, she was a college. student just living in Brownsville, Texas, when an unexpected divorce had her move. back to Matamoros to live with her. parents. She always talked about wanting. to become a teacher. >> Ooh. >> So, like I said, she was just a regular. girly going to college, wanting to be a. teacher,

and then she met Adolfo Constanzo. >> She's just going to mold young minds? She was going to mold young minds. >> Woah. >> Adolfo and Sara met one afternoon in the. summer of '87 when he stopped his car in. the middle of a crowded street causing a. traffic jam just to meet her. >> Woah. >> Apparently this was like a thing in. Matamoros, like men would put these big. displays of affection on for women that. they wanted to end up. >> Oh, okay. >> It's like a peacock situation. >> Yeah, very much. >> So, exactly. So, she was familiar with. this and she always found it kind of. like repulsive. >> Yeah, she's like, "No, thanks.". >> But for some reason, there was something.

about Adolfo that she liked. She saw. that he was gifted and talented, I. guess. >> Now, she didn't find him brash or. overconfident. She said he was she felt. like he was just magnetic. And it didn't. take long before she was brought into. the fold and familiarized with the ways. of his religion, his quote-unquote. religion. But she probably didn't know that she. wasn't the first woman to join his. group. There had been actually two. before her that served as high. priestess. >> Oh. >> Yeah. >> Where'd they go? >> Uh they mysteriously vanished within a.

year of meeting Adolfo Constanzo. >> You know what? It's none of my business. >> Isn't it weird how people just. mysteriously vanish when they know him. or his family? >> very there's a lot of mysterious. vanishing happening here and it's making. me very uncomfortable. >> Alaina, it's just magic. >> I have anxiety. >> listening to this. >> Just cuz this world is like everything. about all of this. >> It's so dark. >> feels so scary to me. Like I'm so. anxious just thinking about it. >> Yeah. Now at first what brought the.

Hernandezes and the Constanzo and. Constanzo's followers together were the. drugs and the money, not the religion. But in time that changed because the. deeper that they all got into Palo. Mayombe the more the spiritual practices. and beliefs took over their lives. Now. to Tony Avaletta, the doctor, who. actually knew Sara well. >> Wow. >> her rapid transformation from a. straight-A student in his class. So, literally the the doctor that was. brought in as an expert on this religion. ended up knowing one of these followers.

because she was in his class that he. taught. That's. >> incredible in the worst way. >> It really is. He found her. transformation to be almost. unbelievable. >> Yeah. >> He said, "She sat in my anthropology. class all semester, an A student, always. present, always friendly. I never saw. her wear an emblem, an amulet, a. talisman, any sign of black magic, and. I'm trained to watch out for such. things. I never heard her ask a weird. question even when we talked about weird. religions.". >> So it really was like night and day.

switch. >> Yeah, light switch. Now there's no way of knowing exactly. how many people, unfortunately, were. murdered by the cult between 88 and 89. But according to Gary Cartwright, the. earliest victims were, quote, "selected. from the ranks of enemies, rival drug. dealers, or dirty cops who had gone back. on an agreement.". Yeah. Now to Elio Hernandez, this made sense. He could appease Constanzo and also get. rid of his enemies and rivals at the. same time. >> Yeah. It was perfect for him. >> sense in that way. >> Right. But soon the murders became much.

more cruel, much more sadistic, and very. reckless. This is horrific. And the we lightly. touched on this earlier. >> Oh, boy. >> In one instance, when Elio was forced to. shoot the man they planned to sacrifice. before the ceremony began, so things. went wrong, he sent out three of his henchmen to. find a replacement, and any replacement. would do. They said they just needed. somebody. >> [ __ ]. >> So the followers did as they were told, and they grabbed a 14-year-old boy.

>> Oh my god. >> He had gone out in the night to look for. a lost goat. >> Oh. >> It was only later, when the sacrifice, aka the murder, was finished, that Elio realized he had murdered his. own nephew. >> Oh my god. >> Because before that they had a hood over. his head, but once they lifted the hood, he realized they had sacrificed, {quote. on quote, his own nephew. >> What are the [ __ ] odds of that? And. also, how do you.

put your head on the pillow at night. doing what you do anyway, but it's so. reckless now that you've [ __ ]. accidentally murdered your own family. off the street? >> You have to be so detached from. >> anything even slightly resembling. humanity. >> They also just continued on doing the. same thing after this. >> like that didn't That wasn't like a. wake-up call, like shit's getting way. too chaotic, like we need to. take a step here. >> It's insane.

Now, by the time they killed Mark. Kilroy, all of Adolfo Constanzo's. followers had come to see him himself as. some kind of god, like some kind of. divine being. >> He commanded their respect, they were. afraid of him, and as a result, they. would do whatever he wanted, no matter. how heinous, and especially if there was. something they thought was to be gained. from the brutality and the cruelty. >> Because that's the thing. >> The more cruel, the more brutal, the. more horrific these things these these. murders were, they thought they were getting more.

benefit from that, more protection. I don't know how you rationalize that. in your brain. >> That's what they I I keep going back to. it. I'm like, how does this [ __ ]. happen? But how does this. >> You have to lose total grip on reality. >> Like you don't have any empathy for. another human being? Like I just like I. can't wrap my brain around that. >> that untethered. I think like that's the. word, untethered to reality. >> from humanity and reality. Cuz like.

there are people I can't [ __ ] stand. >> absolutely. But if I saw something. horrible happening to them and they like. cried or were upset, something in me. would feel empathy. >> and intervene, and have to like not be a. part of that, and like not let that. happen. It's like. people I hate. Like you know what I. mean? Like it's I can't. >> Because that's humanity, though. >> imagine. Like that's empathy. That's. sympathy. But some people just aren't. equipped with those emotions or.

>> Yeah. >> Too. That's the other thing. It's like. you know nothing about this person's. life or who loves them or who they love. or what they're going through or what. they had planned and you just don't. care. >> Intervening and. and removing it. And you and you feel entitled to do so. >> Yeah, you feel entitled and you feel. like you get something out of that. It's. like that's so gross. >> I can't make sense of that. >> Yeah. >> Now, as soon as Commander Benitez saw. the signs of witchcraft at the ranch and. his suspicions were then confirmed by. Dr. Zulueta, he called the investigation.

actually to an immediate halt. The. search would not continue, he said, until the black magic on the property. had been neutralized. >> Because he knows about this [ __ ]. >> He knows about this [ __ ] and it's it is. taken very seriously in the in these. particular cultures. >> Yeah, you don't want to [ __ ] around with. that. >> Right. I know it sounds a little out. there. Like, yeah, what are you talking. about? >> It's magic. >> You have to neutralize the scene before. you investigate and I do think there. were some things that were done that. probably weren't great as far as. investigation goes, but it works out. But like this is a this is a deeply.

ingrained thing in these cultures. >> have to that's the thing and when a. culture believes something to that. extent and like the energy is put into. it like that. >> You have to you have to take it. seriously and you have to do the correct. steps to make sure you're doing. everything right. >> Right. Like you have to allow them to do. what they need to do for that end of the. day. >> Yeah. >> So, Benitez contacted and again, I hope. I say this right. I know I'm just a. little white girl. A curandero, which is. a white witch, to come to the property. and cleanse the area. But they wanted to.

wait until Sunday, which is the Lord's. Day, when the cleansing magic would be. the most powerful. So, in the meantime, Benitez and the. American authorities poured over. Constanzo's journals and other evidence. that they were able to get from the. scene. They managed to round up several. members of his gang, but he himself, El. Padrino and his high priestess Sara, were still unaccounted for and. presumably at this point on the run. The journals indicated that his activity. was obviously not confined to the ranch. There were other altars, {quote}.

{unquote}, around Mexico where. sacrifices had been performed. Uh Agent Rafael Martinez said, "Another. murder to appease the spirits and keep. the fugitive free is not only a. possibility, it's a probability.". Now when Sunday finally arrived, the. agents all gathered back at the ranch. with several of their irritable American. counterparts. And they watched as the white witch set. about cleansing the property. The first. step was to destroy the shack where the. rituals had occurred. I can understand if you weren't familiar.

with this religion or this culture being. like, "Why would you burn down. crucial evidence?". I wouldn't quite understand that, but. you're on their soil and you have to do. what you have to do. Now once the flames had died and the. structure itself was just a pile of ash. and rubble, the white witch crept up to. the cauldron with a 2 by 4 in one hand. Humes wrote, "He approached the thing as. if it was a wounded animal capable of. attacking anybody who entered its den.". And then to everybody's surprise, he.

rushed forward and smashed the cauldron. with the club and then leapt back almost. like he was waiting for a corresponding. attack or something to come at him. Retaliation. When nothing happened, he. seemed satisfied that the black magic. had been neutralized. He spent a few. more hours at the property cleansing. with holy water and performing other. rituals and then gave Benitez the all. clear that allowed them to continue on. with the investigation. Now, as soon as the investigation really. got back on track, the story hit the. newspapers and all the sensational and.

salacious details would continue to be. front page news in the weeks that. followed, obviously. In the days after the story broke, Brad. Moore, who was Mark Kilroy's one of his. closest friends, told a reporter, "I'm. still really in shock about it. I know. he's in a better place. I know that. He. was a very good person.". Just breaks your heart. Yeah, that's. awful. Now, in the days that followed, investigators were able to identify. three more bodies that were unearthed at. the ranch. There was Valente del Fierro, a local man in his 30s who had been shot. with a 9 mm.

There was Gilberto Garza Sosa, a. railroad security guard whose neck bones. were all broken from what the medical. examiner believed was a hanging. And there was Cesar Sauceda, who was a former Matamoros police. officer, and his body showed signs of. torture. >> Holy [ __ ]. >> Uh it was Sauceda actually, Sauceda, who. Elio had shot prematurely, which. required them to find a new victim, and. that obviously resulted in the death of. his own nephew, his 14-year-old nephew.

>> 14 years old. >> But unfortunately, many of the other. victims would remain unidentified. >> That's really sad. >> It is. Now, while his family, Mark. Kilroy's family, struggled to process. the revelation that he was dead, that he. wasn't coming home, and the press had a field day playing up. all the shocking aspects of the story, authorities on both sides of the border. got to work just trying to apprehend. everybody who was responsible, and. obviously doing their best to hunt down. Adolfo Constanzo. By the time the agents were searching.

the ranch, they had many of the members. of the gang in custody, but like we said, as soon as he heard. Constanzo of the raid, he and Sara. escaped to Brownsville along with cult. members Martin Quintana Rodriguez, Omar. Francisco Guerra Ochoa, and Alvaro. Aldubi de Leon Valdez, and they were all. wanted for murder. Now, believing that Constanzo and the others. might be hiding out at like a hotel or. something like that in Brownsville, federal agents in the US assembled a.

team and they raided the hotel. But, by the time they arrived, the group. had already caught a flight out of Texas. to Mexico City. >> And that's where Constanzo actually had. an apartment. >> Wow. >> multiple places like that on both sides. of the border. It took several weeks, but Mexican. authorities finally caught up with the. fugitive cult members in Mexico City at. the end of April. When they raided Constanzo's apartment, they found altars, they found candles, and other cult objects inside. But, they. didn't find any evidence that a violent.

crime had been committed there. In that. >> location. >> location. So, that was a little tough. >> Yeah. >> Now, a week later on May 6th, a resident. of a apartment complex in Mexico City. called the police to report a domestic. disturbance. Now, the police thought that might have. been Constanzo and the others, so they. brought reinforcements. And the report actually ended up being. unrelated to Constanzo. >> But, it did result in gunfire between. the suspect and the police. And in a in a bizarre coincidence, Constanzo was staying in an apartment.

complex nearby. >> What? >> And when he heard the gunfire between. the police and the suspect in the. domestic dispute, he assumed that the. authorities had caught up with him. >> What are the [ __ ] odds? >> One of his followers, who was on the run. at the same time, said he went crazy, crazy. He grabbed a bundle of money and. threw it and began shooting out the. window. >> Holy [ __ ]. >> Now, believing that he only had a matter. of minutes before he was caught, he. ordered one of the other cult members, of Alvaro Valdez, to shoot him and his.

henchman, Martin Rod- Rodriguez, excuse me, who was also on the run. >> Whoa. >> The story was later confirmed by Sara, who told police Adolfo had made the. order, quote, "Because it was the end, and he wanted to die with Martin.". >> This is. wild. >> It's. bonkers. So, with Adolfo Constanzo and Martin. Rodriguez now dead, police took Sara. Aldrete, Omar Francisco Orea Ochoa, and. Alvaro de Leon Valdez into custody, bringing the manhunt for Mark Kilroy's.

murderers to an end. A bizarre, wild. end. >> One of the strangest ends I think that. we actually had in Morbid History. >> [ __ ] So it took some time to sort. everything out, but eventually everybody. who played a role in the murders of. those discovered buried at the ranch. were punished for their crimes. >> Good. >> Not long after his arrest, Orea Ocoaua. was hospitalized and diagnosed with. AIDS. As a result of the advanced stage of his. virus, he spent the rest of his life in. a hospital and died in February of 1990.

Alvaro Valdez was found Valdez, excuse. me, was found guilty of the murders of. Adolfo Constanzo and Martin Rodriguez. and was sentenced to 30 years in prison. Sara Aldrete, Serafin Hernandez, Elio. Hernandez and Sergio Martinez were. ultimately convicted of multiple crimes. including the murders of Mark Kilroy and. the others found on the ranch and they. were sentenced to 67 years in prison. Wow. Um I don't I don't know exactly why, but. in 1998 a judge did reduce their. sentences to 50 years each.

>> Why? >> I don't know if it was good behavior or. I'm not sure. Seems crazy. Now, as of. today only Ovido Hernandez and Malio. Ponce Torres have managed to evade. capture. >> Wow. >> Yeah. As for the Kilroy family, they continue to support each other in. the years that have followed since. Mark's death. A few years after the. tragedy, they established the Mark. Kilroy Foundation and that's an. organization dedicated to the prevention. of substance abuse among young people.

Which I think is really incredible that. they were able to. to do something with it, exactly. >> Since starting the organization, they've. provided countless teens and young. adults with the education and. opportunities to avoid falling into. addiction. And even though Mark himself never. struggled with drugs or alcohol, they. obviously saw the connection to. addiction and what happened here. In 2009, Mark's mother Helen, said, "A. lot of people weren't even alive when. this happened to Mark. So, we do talk to. people about Mark's story. They need to. realize that they have to be aware of.

what is going on around them anywhere, not just in a foreign country.". >> Exactly, cuz that really is This kind of. [ __ ] can happen anywhere. >> And you just like stories like this are. so shocking, but it's such proof that. you do not know what's lingering around. the next corner. >> And you don't know strangers are. strangers. You don't know them. You. don't know what they're about. You don't. know if they have good intentions. You. don't know anything. >> Unfortunately, a lot of times people don't want to help. you. >> No. >> They want to hurt you. And like that's a.

horrible thing to have to believe, but. >> But you have to at least have that in. the front of your mind now. >> Yeah. Now we have the information. >> Let them prove to you that they're not. that. >> Exactly. >> But honestly, like we were talking about. this the other day with just a group of. friends, anytime I've ever been helped. like get it or offered help like getting. my groceries into my car or something. like that, I No, thank you. >> Yeah, no. >> I'm all set. I got it. I never want the. help. A ride? Nope, you don't need a. ride anymore. Definitely not. at this point like at when this story.

happened, but now Uber? Nope, I'm all. set. Don't need it. It's just It's such an awful, awful. story. It's just awful that human beings. are capable of doing this to other human. beings. >> That's honestly the thing that my brain. just never ever can even conceive of. No. >> Truly. But I really do commend his. family for like making something. >> positive Something positive come out of. it. >> such a tragic loss. >> Cuz holy [ __ ]. >> Yeah. It's a horrific story. It really. is. >> Do you have a fun fact for us as a.

palate cleanser? >> it's your fun fact time. >> Is it my fun fact? >> I did fun fact last time. >> I'll find a fun fact for us then. Okay. Sharks have been swimming in. Earth's oceans for about 400 million. years, making them roughly 50 million. years older than the earliest trees. >> That's so scary and incredible all at. the same time. >> It really is. Like that's. the ocean isn't my business. >> No. >> It's just not. >> I also just find it so scary that we. just stopped exploring the ocean.

>> Yeah, cuz I think we're like we have we. have more business up in space than we. have down here. >> Yeah. >> And I fully believe that. >> Freaks me out. >> But we also scary. >> Ocean? >> Scarier. >> Unthinkable. >> But also like that's where our wi-. >> wi-fi comes from. >> Yeah. >> Make it make sense. >> I know. >> Yeah. >> Like he's looking at me like what the. [ __ ]. Comes from like tunnels and [ __ ]. underwater. It's weird. >> It's crazy. >> Fall into a rabbit hole about that on. TikTok. You'll lose your. >> Let's go girls. >> Let's do it. >> Do that. That's how you pallet cleanse.

>> into that rabbit hole. >> Fall into like a creepy rabbit hole but. like that's like technological and. chilling. >> And we'll probably scare you as well. >> Yeah, but like in a fun. >> Yeah, in a fun way. >> So with that being said, we hope you. keep listening. >> We hope you keep it. >> weird. >> But also weird that you don't go down a. rabbit hole. >> One that makes you feel good. >> Yeah, or a little bit scared. >> Spooky. >> Spooky rabbit hole.

>> Mhm.