The Science of Making & Breaking Habits: How to Change Your Life in 1 Month

Procrastinating is choosing to delay a. better future. It's choosing to ignore. the results that you could be having, the potential that you could be. fulfilling. Fix the inputs and the. outputs will fix themselves. Fix the. daily habits and you'll be led to a. different destination. Time is precious. Today, you and I are getting to learn. from the incredible James Clear. is. widely regarded as one of the top. experts in the world on habit formation. and behavior change whose book on habits. has sold 25.

million copies. I'm talking about none. other than Atomic [music] Habits. >> I feel like if I sit there and I. ruminate about something, it just gets. worse. It gets bigger in my head. But if. I take one small action on it, if I just. get started on it, now I'm influencing. the outcome. You know, now I'm shaping. what's going to happen. action relieves. anxiety. [music]. >> You said at the very beginning is that. the secret to winning is knowing how to. lose. How do you start the engine up. again and what's the mistake you see. people making? >> There's just a period where you just got.

to get through them. Life might be bad. now, but that doesn't mean it's always. going to be that way. Life might be hard. now, but it's not always going to be. hard. And you're going to be okay. You're going to make it out [music] the. other side. I think we should all give. ourselves permission for our habits to. shift based on the season that we're. facing. Explain. the four laws of behavior change. >> The first law is to make [music] it. obvious. The second law is to make it. attractive. The third law is to make it. easy. [music] The easier, more. convenient, [snorts] frictionless, simple a habit is, the more likely it is.

to be performed. And the fourth and. final laws, >> that's amazing. Hey, it's your buddy Mel. And before we. jump into this unbelievable. conversation with James Clear, you're. about to learn that you're not the. problem. The fact that you don't have. systems is the problem. You're going to. learn these systems. We're going to get. right into it. You're going to love. this. It's going to help you achieve. your goals. But I have a goal, too. My. goal is that 50% of you who watch here. on YouTube are subscribers. And right. before we were about to start this. episode, my team showed me this. 57% of.

you who watch the Mel Robbins podcast. here on YouTube are not subscribers. You're the kind of person who likes. supporting people who support you. My. goal is that we get to 50%. So, please, if that subscribe button is lit up, it. means you're not a subscriber. Please. hit subscribe. It's free. That's how you. can show your support to your friend Mel. Robbins, and that way you don't miss a. thing. It also tells me and the team, "Oh my gosh, you love the guests that. we're bringing you, the content that. we're putting here in an attempt to. support you in creating a better life.".

All right, thanks for doing that. You're. ready to break bad habits and lock in. new ones using James Clear's research? I. bet you are. So, let's jump in. James. Clear, welcome to the Mel Robbins. Podcast. Hello, Mill. How are you? >> I am fantastic. I am so excited to. be able to have this conversation with. you because your work has made such a. big difference in my life. I have bought. Atomic Habits and pressed it into. people's hands more times than I can.

count. And to be able to unpack the. simple but powerful insights today, I. I've just been looking forward to this. since I started the podcast. >> No, thank you so much. That's very nice. of you to say. Well, it's true. And. here's where I want to start. What will. I experience in my life that could be. different, James, if I take everything. that you're about to share with us and. teach us today to heart and I apply it. to my life? [snorts]. >> Well, I'll give you three things right. off the bat. So, first is action. relieves anxiety. Action relieves.

anxiety. So if you're feeling stressed. about something, you fear something, there's a problem that's kind of. bothering you, [snorts] taking action on. it reduces the fear that you feel about. the problem because now you're. influencing the outcome. Second thing is. it builds resilience. So in a lot of. ways, I feel like the secret to winning. is knowing how to lose. And what I mean. is it's knowing how to bounce back from. a loss. And so many of the things that. we'll talk about today are about getting. started and about making it easier for.

yourself to get started, particularly. after you fail, after you suffer. something. And so the secret to winning. is knowing how to lose. And these. strategies will teach you how to be more. resilient, bounce back from those. losses. [snorts] And then the third. thing is better results. You know, um, in a way procrastinating is choosing to. delay a better future. It's choosing to. ignore the results that you could be. having, the potential that you could be. fulfilling. [snorts] And most of our. outcomes in life are a lagging measure.

of the habits that precede them. So your. bank account is a lagging measure of. your financial habits. Your um physical. fitness is a lagging measure of your. training habits. Your knowledge is a. lagging measure of your reading habits. It's the thing that is the result of the. action. You're basically saying the bank. account I see today is a result of the. habits that I had like a year ago. >> Yeah. Almost all the things that we have. now are a result of the daily life, the.

daily system that we've been following. for the last say 6 months or year or two. years. You know, it's it's the things. that you do each day that lead you to. the outcomes that you have right now. Now look, I'm not saying that habits are. the only thing that matter in life, right? You have luck and randomness. You've got misfortune. There are all. sorts of things that can influence the. final outcome. [snorts] But. by definition, luck and randomness are. not under your control and your habits. are. And the only reasonable rational. approach in life is focus on the pieces. of the situation that are within your.

control. And so we also badly, this is. interesting thing in life, we also badly. want better results. You know, we also. badly want to make more money or double. productivity or be fit or reduce stress. But the irony is the results are not. actually the thing that needs to change. It's like fix the inputs and the outputs. will fix themselves. Fix the daily. habits and you'll be led to a different. destination. You know, in some ways I. feel like the two time frames that. matter most in life are like 10 years. and 1 hour. So 10 years is shorthand for.

like what are the big meaningful things. you really care about in life? I mean e. sit there and think about most of us. like what do we really want to do? you. know, want to have a marriage that we're. proud of or raise kids that are. successful or to build a business that. thrives or to get in the best shape of. your life, whatever it is, whatever that. big thing is, it's almost always a. multi-year, sometimes a multi-deade. process. So 10 years is shorthand for. like what's that big vision? >> Yeah. >> And then one hour is shorthand for what. can I do in the next hour that. contributes to where I want to be in 10.

years. You know, like never let a day. pass without doing something that is. going to benefit you in a decade. And if. you can live in those two mind frames, if you can have like both this long-term. vision and this bias for short-term. action, you don't let a day pass without. doing something that's going to benefit. you 10 years from now. You don't even. need to wait 10 years. Usually, usually. it's like a year or two and you're. shocked by how much progress you made. >> Well, already you are dropping very. clear, very simple, and very powerful.

truths. I'm going to call them that. action relieves anxiety, which we're. going to get dig into. That the secret. to winning is knowing how to lose. And. tell me the third one again about. procrastination. >> Procrastinating on something important. is choosing to delay a better future. >> So, you know this is important to you. You know this is important to your life, but not taking action on it now. You're. just pushing kicking the can down the. road, right? Pushing the results further. and further out. And so, by um you the. question you asked me was if I take this. seriously and I follow through on these. things, how will life change?

>> Yes. And the answer is you'll no longer. be delaying a better future. You'll be. working toward it. You'll be. contributing to it. >> Interview's over. I mean, that. [laughter] right there was absolutely. I. cannot wait to dig into this. What I. would love to talk about first though, in case the person who is listening. right now or who's watching on YouTube. doesn't know what a habit is, what is. the simplest definition for how to think. about a habit and why are they so. important? >> Sure. Okay. So, good question. I'm going.

to define a habit in a couple different. ways. So, first way, if you were to talk. to an academic or researcher, they're. going to tell you habits are these. automatic mindless routines, things you. do without even really thinking about. it. >> Okay? So, like how you pull your pants, >> brush your teeth, tie your shoes, put. your pants on the same leg each time. Like, you know, it's just these. automatic mindless behaviors. And it is. true that there are many habits that are. like that throughout the day. But. there's, I think, a different type of. way that we use the word habit to. describe most things. Like, if I were to. ask you, Mel, what are some habits. you're going to work on? You're not. going to say stuff like that. You're.

going to say, "I'm trying to get in the. habit of meditating every morning or I. want to get in the habit of writing. every day or going to the gym three days. a week or whatever." Yes. >> And that is more of [laughter]. >> all those um that's more like a routine, you know, in a technical academic sense. It's not automatic the way that brushing. your teeth might be, but what you mean. is I want to do it consistently and, you. know, regularly. And so most of atomic. habits is about that stuff. It's about. how do we pick these big important. things in our lives and do them with. greater consistency and frequency.

>> There are these simple systems and. things and rules that you're going to. teach us today that that I love because. I think when you're somebody that's. struggling to make changes stick in your. life or to even get started, you see it. as a deficit in your personality. You. beat yourself up and say, "I have no. willpower. I'm the only loser on the. planet who doesn't have a morning. routine." And what I love so much about. your work is you're about to show us, no, no, no, no, no. It's not a failure. in you. It's a failure in the things.

that you're going to teach us. >> Well, you know, a lot of the. conversation about habits kind of frames. things that way. You know, like if you. hear people say, "Oh, you know, oh, I. wish I just had the discipline to follow. through on this." Or, "Hey, maybe if you. really wanted to do it, then you would. follow through." You know, maybe if you. really wanted to do it, you would have. more willpower, discipline, or grit. And, you know, I don't want to totally. dismiss discipline and willpower and. grit. like they're all very important. qualities in life. But I don't know that. that answer is quite right. You know, I. think many people I bet you know most. people genuinely do want to improve,

genuinely do want to perform at a higher. level, genuinely would like to have. better results. So what I would say is. look, if you're struggling to improve, the problem isn't you. The problem is. your system. You know, we don't change. not because we don't want to change, but. because we have the wrong system for. change. And if you can have the right. system, the right elements in place, then improving becomes much easier. >> Well, I flagged that exact quote. I'm. going to read to you from Atomic Habits, page 27.

If you're having trouble changing your. habits, the problem isn't you. The. problem is your system. Bad habits. repeat themselves again and again, not. because you don't want to change, but. because you have the wrong system for. change. You do not rise to the level of. your goals. you fall to the level of. your systems. And one of the core themes. that you're going to teach us today is. how to stop focusing on the goal or the. change we want to make and really focus. on the system that helps us create that.

goal. Would you define what exactly is a. system? >> A system is just a collection of habits. So they can be it can be really small. habits, but it's just it's a collection. of habits that are all oriented toward. the same outcome. >> Oh, I'm thinking about how to make the. habit stick. So you're first talking. about, okay, you've got this result that. you want. You have this goal, but what. is the system, the daily things that. you're going to be doing, >> in order to make this result happen in. the future? Now, before we get into.

goals versus system, for somebody who. hasn't read the book, could you talk. about that concept in Atomic Habits, getting 1% better every day. >> This is one of the key ideas in the. book, and it's just this idea that tiny. changes add up to a surprising or. remarkable degree. So, the math of this, if you get 1% better each day for a. year, so 1.01 01 to the 365th power, you. get 37.78 times better by the end of the. year. If you get 1% worse, so.99 to the.

365th power, you drive yourself almost. all the way down to zero. I think it's. 0.03. Um, and so you have these results. that are shockingly large or shockingly. small based on little tiny actions that. you do each day. And I think it's. interesting because you know, like what. is the difference between a choice. that's 1% better or 1% worse? I mean, on. any given day, not a whole lot. I mean, what is the difference between somebody. who reads for 10 minutes today and. somebody who doesn't read at all? >> Basically nothing. You know, like.

reading for 10 minutes does not make you. a genius. Um, but if you're the type of. person who always goes to bed a little. bit smarter than they were when they. woke up, the person who always finds a. little bit of time to learn something. new, yeah, that can be a pretty. meaningful difference in wisdom and. insight, especially over a 10, 20, 30. year period. >> [snorts]. >> So, we all have these habits that we're. doing each day and um it's easy to. overlook them, but time will magnify. whatever you feed it. So, if you have. good habits, time becomes your ally and. every day that goes by, you put yourself.

in a stronger position. If you have bad. habits, time becomes your enemy. And. every day that goes by, you dig the hole. a little bit deeper. And that's really. what getting 1% better is about. It's. this emphasis on trajectory rather than. position. Now, if you had a a 747 that. was sitting on the runway in Los. Angeles, >> Yeah. >> and it takes off and it's going to go to. New York. If you nudge the nose of the. plane 6 feet at the start when it takes. off, it you land in Washington DC rather. than New York City. >> And it's just about this difference that. a tiny change can make. The the.

difference that a small improvement or. being on a slightly different trajectory. can result in. Small changes when. they're compounded over a great distance. or a long time can lead you to a very. different result. It's hard to wrap your mind around the. fact that if I just focus on getting 1%. better every day for a year that I end. up 37.7. times better. Can you give me like a. like like what if I do like a push-up. every day then maybe at the end of the. like No, I'm serious. I want to.

visualize what this is because that's. amazing. >> I think first all first of all it's not. really about getting caught up in the. exact number. It's more about the. philosophy. It's like an attitude and. approach of can I try to find some small. way to get better each day. >> Yeah. >> Um the math of it is just compound. interest, you know, like it's just it's. just a compounding curve and compound. interest is almost always surprising. what it turns into in the long run. And. the effects of your habits can also. almost always be surprising what they. can turn into. Now your habits are not. exactly like a mathematical formula,

right? Like your your life is not. exactly like some equation that you're. going to calculate. But the principle of. trying to find some small way to improve. and trusting with how that can. accumulate and compound over time that. is very true and it also I think is very. much how it feels on a given day which. is the actions feel kind of. insignificant on a daily basis. They're. very easy to overlook on a daily basis. and very surprising what they turn into. good and bad a year or two or three from. now. And so it's really about mastering. those small daily actions and what that.

can lead us to in the long run. What are. the top two or three surprising ones. that if you did 1% better every day, you'd be shocked at where you ended up. in a year? >> You'd be surprised if you work on almost. anything consistently for, say, 2 years. You're almost guaranteed to be in the. top, you know, 1 to 5% of the population. on it. I mean, nobody else is spending. that amount of time on it. So, that. doesn't mean that you're going to play. in the NBA if you practice basketball. for two years, but it does mean you will. be a much better basketball player. >> You know, James, let's talk more about.

this. There's a deeply personal story, something that happened to you that. explains the 1% rule. >> Yeah. So, I, you know, I grew up in a. family, played lots of different sports, and I played baseball for a long time. And when I was in high school, I. suffered this really serious baseball. injury where I was hit in the face with. a baseball bat. And it was an accident. You know, a classmate of mine took a. swing and kind of bat came out of his. hands and uh rotated through the air and. struck me right between the eyes. Um, broke my nose. uh shattered both eye. sockets, broke the bone behind my nose,

kind of deeper inside your skull. I was. aircared to the hospital and I was in a. medically induced coma overnight. Um and. then the next day my vitals had kind of. stabilized to the point where they could. release me from the coma and it was a. really long road back. Um you know, I. couldn't drive a car for the next 9. months. Uh when I went to my first. physical therapy session, I was. practicing basic motor patterns like. walking in a straight line, had double. vision for weeks. [snorts] So it took a. while. Um, and all I wanted, you know, I.

was a teenager. I was 16, 17 years old. All I wanted was to get back to being. this normal young, healthy kid before, you know, be able to drive a car and go. to baseball and play and whatever. [snorts]. >> But it was a time in my life when I was. forced to start small. >> You know, I had to just focus on what. can I do at this physical therapy. session? Am I making any progress from. today? Yeah. The last session to this. one. um you know if I can't do anything. physically couldn't play baseball for. about a year then you know can I study. and do well on this test or try try to. find some small win some small.

improvement that I can make [snorts] and. all the things that we're about to talk. about today I would never have said it. that way then like I wouldn't have said. oh I'm just trying to get 1% better you. know like I I didn't have a language for. it um but it was an experience that. forced me to realize um how small. actions can be and still be meaningful. >> yes and that progress can take a long. arc. I barely played baseball in high. school after the injury. I basically. missed my whole the whole next year I. went to college. First year I came off.

the bench. Uh second season I was a. starter. Third season I was team. captain. Then fourth year I was an. academic all-American. And that's like a. five or six year arc from that stuff. And um I never played professionally. But I look back on that and I feel like. I was able to maximize my potential. M. >> and you know we all have things in life. that we don't ask for. And this was one. for me. It was one of the first things I. said when I woke up the next day was I. never asked for this. But you have to. get out of that self-pity loop. It just. does not serve you. A bad attitude and.

self-pity makes every problem harder. And so you're just at layering on. another challenge to the already. challenging situation. And [snorts] so. instead I tried to be as positive as I. could about it, you know, and try to. find things to to improve each day. And. again, it took five or six years, but I. think that process taught me a lot about. building small habits and bouncing back. from challenges. And so eventually, 10. years later, when it came time to write. the book, I think the book is better. because I struggled. It was better.

because I had to go through that. process. And now I know just like. everybody else how hard it is to build. habits, how long it takes to make. progress, and you know, how challenging. it can be to see the improvement that. you've been wishing for. And so I think. those struggles ended up resulting in. better material. >> Wow. That that story really struck me. when I read the book and I'm so glad you. shared it because it does illustrate the. power of the 1% rule. >> The human mind is a learning machine. Almost every skill that you have today. was previously unknown to you. When you.

were born, you didn't know how to tie. your shoes or cut a tomato or make. spaghetti or whatever. Um, but you know. all that stuff now because you practiced. it. And you can get better at anything. that you practice. And I think it's. interesting if you look at people, what. are people spending their time. practicing each day, you know, like a. lot of people are practicing the art of. getting mad on social media? People are. practicing the the fine craft of being. fearful and reading about all the ways. that the world is falling apart. They're. practicing scrolling their phone, you.

know, like what what are you trying to. get good at? I think it's worth to ask. like what am I practicing each day? What. am I training for? And every moment is a. repetition and your brain will. automatically get better at the things. that you repeat. Uh whatever you repeat, you reinforce. And so you want to make. sure you're reinforcing the right. things. >> What I love about what you just said is. that often times when you're thinking. about habits, you're thinking about the. new ones. And we don't often have that. moment of honest reflection with.

ourselves. >> where we say, "Wait a minute, I already. have a lot of habits. And if I don't. like how my life looks and feels right. now, whether that's the balance of my. bank account or the way that my I feel. in my body or the kind of relationship. I'm in or my drinking habits or what I'm. doing with my free time, >> then changing my habits is the way I. change the circumstances of my life. >> Here's an interesting one for you. I. something like scrolling your phone or. whatever. Mo most people would be like,

"Yeah, that's probably one I don't want. to do as much." But what I find. interesting are the habits that used to. serve me well but don't serve me as well. now. That those have been much harder. for me to give up. The way that I think. about it is I like to ask myself this. question of what season am I in right. now? >> You know, and life has a lot of. different seasons. Sometimes there can. be all kinds of reasons that seasons. shift. You know, maybe it's you get. married or you have a kid or maybe you. move to a city or start a new job. I was. just talking to a mom who she just. became an empty neester and she's like,

you know, for 25 years I've been taking. care of these kids. Now all of a sudden. nobody's here. Like what season am I in? And what I've slowly learned I I can be. a slow learner in a lot of ways. Um is. when your seasons change, your habits. often need to change. And I found, you. know, for me, I a lot of the time I'll. have a season shift and then I keep. trying to force fit my old habits into. this new season. Uh it takes me 18. months to realize, hey, something needs. to change. And I think this is an. important conversation to have about. habits because people don't say this.

explicitly, but a lot of the time when. people are focused on their habits and. they start something new, they don't say. it to themselves, but they're kind of. thinking in the back of their mind, what. would it look like to be successful at. this? Oh, well, I would just do this. habit forever is what and if I stopped. doing it at some point, that must mean. that I failed or I quit or something. like that. I I don't think it has to be. like that at all. You know, like take my. writing habit for example. For the first. three years, I wrote two articles a. week. Those were about 2,000 words each. Then I signed the book deal for Atomic.

Habits. Season changes. Can't can't. write those anymore. So that shifted. Then I worked on the book for 3 years. Now, uh, for the last 5 years, I've been. writing a newsletter once a week. Um, that's much shorter. Um, but at no point. in there do I feel like my writing habit. failed. Just cuz I'm not writing two. articles a week anymore doesn't mean. that, I don't know, I screwed up or. something. um the habit just needed to. change shape based on the season that I. was in. And I think we should all give. ourselves permission for our habits to. shift based on the season that we're.

facing. >> That's so relatable and helpful because. as you were talking about writing, I was. thinking, well, that just happened for. me. >> around exercise and around nutrition, the more that I learn about the. difference between men and women. physiologically, the more I learn about. hormone changes in women, the more I'm. like, "Oh, wait a minute. running, yoga, that's not going to help me the way that. it used to. I got to focus on protein. and I got to focus on resistance. training. Different season, different. habits. >> Makes a lot of sense.

>> Yeah, I think knowing which season. you're in right now is a really helpful. thing. There there's a certain there are. like some questions I like to ask just. for self-awareness. They help bubble up. some insights about yourself that then. lead to some discoveries about maybe how. I should shift my habits or whatever. So. some of the questions I like, one is. what am I optimizing for? Different. people optimize for different things. You will probably optimize for different. things at different points in your life. Sometimes you optimize for making money. Sometimes you optimize for free time or. creative freedom. Sometimes you optimize.

for family. But whatever it is, the. answer is probably very personal to you. and the season that you're in. So what. am I optimizing for? >> Second question is, what season am I in. right now? So we already talked about. that. The third one can be a little bit. cutting, but it's if I I call it like. the it's kind of like the alien test or. something. Imagine imagine that an alien. comes down from outer space, right? It's. going to follow you around throughout. your day. Can't speak your language, can't communicate to you. If it could. only see your actions and not hear your. words, what would it say your priorities.

are? The interesting thing, I think, especially about smart people, is you. can come up with a good excuse for most. things. You have very good reason for. why things aren't happening. And so it's. for very easy for you to talk uh your. way out of why things didn't occur. Um. but the alien can't hear you. It doesn't. care. It's only looking at what you're. spending your time on. And um it's just. a nice way to kind of level set and you. know see, okay, I say things are a. priority, but how am I actually spending. my time? >> Tell me why these tiny changes create.

such massive transformation. Why it's. frankly the only way? >> First of all, it it matters because it's. doable. You know, you really only have a. certain amount of time each day that you. can work with. Everybody says, "Oh, you. have the same 24 hours in a day." But. it's even less than that. I think a more. useful way to frame it is how many hours. per day are under your control. >> Oo, I love that. How many hours? >> There's very few. You know, there's very. few. >> Thank you for telling the truth. >> And so, uh, really it's about what do. you do with those one or two hours, you. know, maybe three, I don't know, but. there's, you know, how many are really. under your control? And so, that amount.

of time is what you have to work with. And so, for that reason, starting small. makes sense. Um, but the bigger thing, and I I think that this is something. I've learned over time, uh, and. especially through that injury, is how. fun it can be to make a small amount of. progress. Even if you aren't where you. wanted to be yet, you feel good. You. know, you have something to look back on. and be like, I got a little bit better. today. So much of life is lived in this. gray zone. Am I a better spouse today. than I was yesterday? Am I a better. friend? Did I improve my career? I, you. know, I don't know. It's hard to know on.

any given day. And so anytime that you. can make a little bit of progress and be. able to look back on that and be like, you know what, that was better than. yesterday, that feels really nice. >> Um, and so I think that uh that's. another reason. And then the third. thing, and this is really what getting. 1% better is actually about, okay, >> it's an it's about an emphasis on. trajectory rather than position. >> You know, tell me what that means. >> Well, there's a lot of discussion about. position in life. You know, what's the. number on the scale? How much money's in. the bank account? What's the current. stock price? What are the quarterly. earnings? We have all these.

measurements, all these metrics for. determining our current position. And. then if the position isn't what we. wanted it to be, if the number isn't. what we like, then we get frustrated or. we feel guilty or we start to judge. ourselves. >> I'm not there yet. Why isn't this. working? I haven't made it. I don't have. the money. I'm never going to get out of. debt. >> And you hear people say things like this. all the time. I've been running for a. month. Why can't I see a change in my. body? Um our, you know, team has been. meeting every Friday for the last 6. months. We still haven't shipped this. feature. And that that's when like the. frustration starts to build. Uh-huh. >> And uh so it is not actually about your.

current position. What instead it is. about is your current trajectory. Am I. getting 1% better or 1% worse? >> How do you know? One of the things and I. love that your last name's clear. You. have the best. >> onbrand name for the way that your brain. thinks. But one of the biggest things. that I see from the folks that listen. around the world is not being clear. about what you want and not knowing what. you want. And so is there any way that.

you think about how to even understand. this concept of trajectory? Right. >> So I don't think there's one answer. I. think there are many to this. Um but. first thing is yes, you're right. Many. people lack think what they lack is. motivation, but what they really lack is. clarity. >> Um, you know, you feel like, oh, I just. need to get more motivated, but what you. really need to know is what is what is. the most important thing? What am I. working on? The the motivation is. actually quite easy if you're very clear. about what the most important thing is. But usually people have seven things.

that they say are important to them and. then it's not easy because you're being. pulled in all these different. directions. >> [snorts]. >> Um, the second thing is, uh, some of the. best advice that I got early on in my. business career was try things until. something comes easily. And I think you. can apply that adi advice to almost. anything. Try things until something. comes easily. >> And the point is. >> there's this common um refrain of try. try again. You know, if things don't. work, try try again. I think instead it. would be better if it was phrased if. things don't work, try try differently.

You need to you need to keep trying. You. need to keep showing up, but you need to. try different lines of attack. You know, different things work better than. others. And so by trying a range of. options, especially early in a process, you put yourself in a much better. position to succeed. >> So here, I'm going to try to tie all. this together. So if I could add one. thing to Atomic Habits that wasn't in. the book, >> it [snorts] would be this question of. what would this look like if it was fun? >> What would this look like if it was fun? What would it look like if meditating. was fun? What would it look like if. going to the gym was fun? What would it.

look like if you know making a sales. call each morning was fun? [snorts] And. that doesn't mean that your habits are. going to feel like the most fun thing in. your life. You know, it's not like, oh, this will feel like going to a concert. or something. [snorts] But let's take. just the like a common one like. exercise. >> A lot of people go to the gym in January. and I feel like they kind of are going. because they feel like they should go or. society wants them to go or something. >> [snorts]. >> But if we just take 10 minutes and write. out what are ways that we could live a. healthy active lifestyle, there's.

dozens. You know, go to the gym, kayak, rock climb, do yoga, like you can come. up with a lot of things, right? And I. think you should just write that list. out for whatever the habit is that. you're working on and then look at the. 10 or 20 or 50 things that you have and. then say, which one of these sounds like. the most fun to me? You know, which one. of these sounds most engaging? And. you're much more likely to follow. through on that than you are on. something else. >> Okay. Can I give you an example? Because. this is such an important nuance that.

could truly change your ability to make. something meaningful stick. Because when. you started talking about the fact that, you know, as as you're trying exercise, let's say, I have the hardest time. motivating myself. I'm very clear that I. want to. exercise four or five days a week. because I want to live a healthy, vibrant life. I want to be hiking into. my 90s and hundreds. I want to be able. to dance at all my kids and grandkids. weddings. Like, that's the why. And I.

know that that means today I got to do. this annoying thing called exercise. And. it's always befuddled me that my husband. with zero resistance, zero friction, can. just walk right into a gym, motivate. himself. My daughter's like that, too. Not me. I wander around like an idiot. I. get bored. I can't stay motivated. I. don't know. What I've discovered is that if I go to. a class, it's fun. >> And so that question, how could I make. this fun? What if this were fun? What. would that look like? That changes.

everything. >> The first key, the first hurdle to clear. is to find things that are genuinely. interesting to you, that are genuinely. fun to you. You know, the person who. felt like it was a hassle at the start. or it kind of feels like it's a chore. and they're sort of making themselves do. it, as soon as it gets hard, they're. going to stop. they didn't want to do it. to begin with. But the person who is. having fun, the person who's engaged and. interested, the person who's curious and. excited about it, they're way more. likely to stick with it when it gets. hard. >> You know, one of the things that I'd. love to have you unpack for us is, you.

know, when someone's sitting around. waiting for motivation and they're. struggling to either get started or. they're struggling as they're waking up. today to do the thing they say that they. want to do. Could you unpack for the person. listening why you have to take the. action first and how motivation shows up. after the action not before. >> So a habit is a behavior that you want. to do consistently, right? You want that.

you want to do consistent. >> that you want to do consistently. >> Okay. >> Motivation we all know sometimes you're. motivated, sometimes you're not. And. motivation rises and falls throughout. the day. So why would you want a. behavior that you want to do. consistently to rely on something that. fluctuates? It doesn't make sense. And. so this is a good reason why you want to. scale habits down to a level where. they're so easy to do. Getting into it. is so simple that you'll do it even when. motivation is low. And so this is. another reason for the phrase atomic.

habits, right? It's about making it tiny. and small so that you stick to it even. when motivation isn't there. >> What does that mean to scale down? If. I'm trying to meditate or I'm trying to. exercise or I'm trying to make that. sales call, >> I'll give you two examples. So there's. this concept in chemistry called. activation energy. It's how much energy. is required to activate a reaction. So. you can think about like striking a. match. There's a certain amount of. effort that you have to put in to strike. the match and for the flame to start. Okay? Your habits are kind of like that. Some habits have really big activation. energy. If you want to do a 100 push-ups.

a day, that requires a certain amount of. motivation. You got to keep doing sets. of five and 10 throughout the day or. whatever. And if it gets to 9:00 one day. and it's time to go to bed and you. haven't done your 100 push-ups yet, I. got to kind of motivate yourself quite a. bit to get that in before you go to. sleep. >> I need gasoline for the bonfire in that. case. Yes. >> So, if your uh objective instead is to. do 10 push-ups a day, well then it's. 9:00 and you still haven't got them in. yet. You're like, I can probably do 10. before I go to sleep. That's that's. probably doable. Um, and so you can see. these two habits have very different.

activation energies. They have very. different amount of effort that they're. requiring from you. So scaling it down. is choosing the thing that's easy to do. that has small activation area. >> So that' be 10 push-ups a day. >> Do 10 instead of a 100. Read instead of. reading 30 books a year, it's read one. page, right? It's like stuff like that. Scale it down. >> Okay. >> There is something that can be tied to. this or is related to this, which is a. phrase that I feel like I remind myself. of a lot, which is reduce the scope, but. stick to the schedule. So there's so. many times where the day kind of gets. away from you, you know, like things get. busy. Let's say you wanted to work out.

today and then you look up the clock and. you know you were planning on doing an. hour workout or 45 minutes and you only. have 15 or 20 minutes. >> In that moment, the conversation I used. to have with myself was, well, I guess I. don't have time to work out today and. then you move on. But instead, what I'm. trying is to say reduce the scope but. stick to the schedule. And so I'll go. down I'll change in my workout clothes. and go down to the my basement and go. down to this little home gym area that I. have and maybe I only have 15 minutes. and I can only do one set of squats, but.

that's what I do. And in some ways I. feel like the bad days matter more than. the good days. You know, it's showing up. on the days when it's not ideal. It's. showing up on the days when you don't. have energy or time or capacity that. keeps the habit alive. And if you keep. the habit alive, all you need is time. But if you throw up a zero now the. streak is broken and sometimes one day. can turn into five days and can turn. into three months and then you find. yourself wanting to get back on track. And I think rather than asking yourself.

what can I do on my best day, you should. start by asking what can I stick to even. on the bad days. >> Oh, I love that. >> That becomes your baseline. >> Okay, so you've already given us two. incredible things which is what if this. were fun? What would it look like if it. were fun? And as you're thinking about. the beginning of a habit, defining it by. what could I actually stick to even on. my worst day, >> right? >> How is it that motivation shows up after. the action? >> Because you have this feeling of.

progress. Now you have something that. you, oh look, I've made some I've made. some movement forward. You know, you. have something to look at. It's the. difference between um hope and evidence. Now you have some evidence and so you. have a reason to believe it. Say, "Oh, look, you know, look at myself moving. forward." And that starts to feel really. good once you stack a couple days. together. You know, it doesn't I think. this is one of the lessons of my work, which is it doesn't take much to feel. good again. You'd be surprised what you. can do with five good minutes. You know, five good minutes of conversation can.

restore a relationship. Five good. minutes of exercise will leave you. winded and like reset your energy and. mood for the day. Five good minutes of. writing will make you feel like the. manuscript is moving forward again. It. doesn't take much to feel good. And so. you just need a little bit to get you. get yourself back on the path. >> That's the entire premise of this. podcast that it's takes so little to. make you feel good again and once you do. the progress and the momentum kicks in. If you're the kind of person who's.

listening and you're like, "God, I've. just failed too many times and so you. feel discouraged about starting again.". Whether it's putting yourself back out. there on the dating scene or it's. >> dusting off your resume after getting. laid off and feeling like what value do. I have to offer or you tried yet again. to lose the weight or to stick to the. meditation and you failed again. So what. is the failure premortem? >> Okay, so first you want optimism. My.

little shorthand is I I don't want to be. my own bottleneck. Okay, so um I try to. work backwards from magic at the start. What would the magical outcome be? What. would the thing that I really want to. achieve look like? What's the optimal. outcome look like? [snorts] Then the. next phase, this is where the failure. premortem comes in. So you switch from. optimism to pessimism. All right, I know. where I want to go. So now let's be. let's be my own critic for a minute. the. failure premortems. It's just this. simple question of if we look back six.

month six six months from now and this. has failed, where does it fail? So, it's. just you're pre-analyzing where the. potential points. >> before you even you haven't done. anything yet, but you're trying to be. the one to figure out what are the flaws. in what I'm about to do. Okay? >> And so, the the failure premortem just. says if this fails, where does it fail? >> And you can come up with all kinds of. things like that. Let me give you an. example for habits. So, like let's say. that you want to start going to the gym. >> Yes. and you're like, "Well, if this. plan fails, where does it fail?" And you. it might fail because you don't know.

which gym you're going to use. So you're. like, "All right, I'll pick one that's. on the route of my commute each day." So. then you say, "Okay, it might fail. because I don't have my gym clothes. ready." So you're like, "All right, I. need to set my clothes out the night. before or have my gym bag ready early.". I [snorts] had one person who they were. like, "I am going to the gym and I wish. I could stick to it more, but I just. this gym doesn't have a water fountain.". And so when I go there, I'm like, uh, I. always forget to bring my water bottle, and that's enough to make me be like, I'm not going to go cuz they I they. don't have a water fountain there. And. little points of friction like that kind. sound kind of silly when you say it, but.

you're like, yeah, that's a that's a. potential point of failure, and you need. to have a plan for getting your water. bottle full and make sure that you bring. that each day. And so you start to check. off these boxes of what are the things. that could hold you back from this plan. working. And then you switch back to. optimism because what you don't want is. to go into this process feeling like. you're doubting yourself to begin with. >> I'm screwed. I why am I even doing this? >> That's not that attitude is just going. to make it harder. So you start with. optimism, you switch to pessimism, try. to poke the holes in your argument, and. then you're back. We're back to optimism. again. We want everybody on board and.

feel like we've got the right attitude. going into it. >> Okay. I love this because one of the. things that I immediately thought as you. were using the gym example is I. immediately could pop into the pessimism. mindset. >> and I think I'm a good problem solver. but I was like okay well I don't know. what to do at a gym. >> and so I walk around and then feel. overwhelmed and intimidated because I'm. not quite sure what the routine should. be and then I leave. Mhm. >> The other one is I would immediately see. that I would have shot the goal too high. >> and would have started with an hour.

every day for the next 6 months. >> And so now I'm like, "Oh, wait a minute. I got to reduce the time and stick to. the schedule and what could I get done. on my worst day? >> So what could the goal be?" So now I'm. using your tools. And then I finally am. now saying, "Well, I would about a. weekend go, this isn't fun anymore." And. so I can see how you can anticipate. ways in which you would break your own. >> ability to make it happen. >> So two things here. The first is some of.

this depends on how you're measuring. things. It can really be helpful to pick. a different form of measurement. So if. you take like going to the gym, what's. the common measurement? Everybody's. like, "What's the scale say? And how do. you look in the mirror?" That's what. everybody's measuring. But let's forget. about that. Measure it in a totally. different way. So this reader, his name. is Mitch, and I mentioned him in Atomic. Habits. When he first started going to. the gym, all right, so he lost over 100. pounds. He's kept off for more than a. decade now. And when he first started. going, he had this strange little rule. for himself where he wasn't allowed to.

stay for longer than 5 minutes. So he'd. get in the car, drive to the gym, get. out, do half an exercise, get back in. the car, drive home. And it sounds. silly, you know, you're like, "This. doesn't this is not going to get him the. results that you want." But [snorts]. if you take a step back, what you. realize is he was mastering the art of. showing up, >> right? He was becoming the type of. person that went to the gym four days a. week, even if it was only for 5 minutes. And that's that's the different form of. measurement there. He's not measuring. the results. He's measuring did I show.

up or not. And that gives him something. else to win on in the early days. >> [snorts]. >> I think this is a pretty deep truth. about habits. Something that people like. often overlook, which is a habit must be. established before it can be improved. >> It has to be. >> Hold on a second. A habit must be. established before it can be improved. >> A habit must be established before it. can be improved. You have to standardize. before you optimize. I mean, how often. in our lives do we try to optimize. things before we get started? You know, you're so busy finding the perfect sales. strategy, the best workout plan, the.

ideal diet to follow, >> best journal, >> right? You want to you want to optimize. everything from the start. Um. >> because it makes me think I'm doing it, James. >> Right. That's exactly it. >> It's a form of procrastination for me. >> I call it the difference between motion. and action. >> So motion are things that make you feel. like you're making progress. So I'm. going to look up a trainer that maybe. could help me at the gym. Doesn't matter. how many times you look up trainers in. your area. It's not going to do anything. to get you fit. Doesn't mean you don't. need a trainer. It doesn't mean you.

shouldn't use one. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that action is never. going to result in the outcome that you. want. [snorts] Doing a set of squats or. doing five push-ups that now that's. something that could get the results. that you want. [snorts] Um and so uh. researching business names want to. launch a business. Let me or designing a. logo doesn't matter how many times you. design your business logo, it's never. going to result in a paying customer. Um. doesn't mean a business doesn't need a. logo, but it's just one is motion, one. is action. So action is a a behavior. that can get the result that you want.

Motion is a behavior that makes you feel. like you're making progress. >> Um, one of the things that I love about. the way that you think about habits and. behavior change is you talk about the. connection between identity and. behavior. And you write you know who do. I want to become is a way better. question to ask yourself than what do I. want to achieve? Why? >> I think it's very natural to start with. results and outcomes. But the results.

are not the thing that you really need. to change. You know, what you need is to. be consistent, to stick with it. You. need to show up consistently. You need. to follow through on, you know, the. actions that are going to lead to that. outcome. >> So, I kind of think of it almost like. the layers of an onion. >> Okay? >> So, the outermost layer of the onion are. the results that you want the outcome. So, let's say lose 40 pounds. Okay? The. next layer in is the action, the plan. that you have. The the actions that you. take. Most of the time when people want. to make a change, they're like, "Yeah, I. you know, I want this result, so I need.

to do follow through on this plan. I. need to go to the gym four days a week. and eat on this diet or whatever." And. the implicit assumption is if I do those. things and get that result, then I'll be. who I want to be. I'll I'll be happy. with who I am. I'll be more like the. person that I hope to be. [snorts] But. the innermost layer of the onion, the. core is who you are, your identity, who. who you become. And so it's like what, how, and who. And instead of starting. with what you want and figuring out how. to do it and assuming that I will then.

be the person I want to be, I think it. is better to invert that process and. start by saying, who do I wish to. become? Or in this example, who is the. type of person that could lose 40 lbs? Well, maybe it's the type of person who. doesn't miss workouts. And then you're. focused on that, not on the weight. And. so what it does is by focusing on the. identity, it kind of inverts how you. think about the habit. Rather than it. being about hitting a certain number on. the scale, it becomes about becoming a. certain type of person. Being the type.

of person who doesn't miss workouts in. this example, your habits are how you. embody a particular identity. So every. day that you make your bed, you embody. the identity of someone who is clean and. organized. If you study biology for 20. minutes on Tuesday night, you embody the. identity of someone who is studious. Your habits provide evidence of who you. are. This is the real reason, the deeper. reason that habits matter. We often talk. about habits as mattering because of the. external results that they get you. Hey,

habits will help you be more productive. or make more money or reduce stress. And. like look, habits can do all that stuff. and that's great, but the real reason, the true reason that habits matter is. that every action you take is like a. vote for the type of person you wish to. become. So, no, doing one push-up does. not transform your body, but it does. cast a vote for I'm the type of person. that doesn't miss workouts. >> And no, giving one bit of positive. feedback to somebody on your team does. not make you the world's best leader, but it does cast a vote for I'm the type. of team member who cares about the.

people around them. [snorts] And I think. this is a little bit different than what. you often hear. You often hear something. like fake it till you make it. >> Yeah. >> And I don't necessarily have anything. wrong with fake it till you make it. It's asking you to believe something. positive about yourself. However, it's. asking you to believe something positive. without having evidence for it. And we. have a word for beliefs that don't have. evidence. Call that delusion. Right? Like we have this mismatch between what. you say you are and what you're actually. doing. And [snorts] so my encouragement. is to let the behavior lead the way. to.

let sending one email or writing one. sentence or meditating for five minutes. to let that small action be evidence. that in that moment you were that kind. of person and then as you start to cast. votes for that identity you have every. reason in the world to believe it and so. I think this is what really gets habits. to stick it is the. reinforcement of your story. >> it's the reinforcement of how you see. yourself and the identity that you're. trying to build and that's why I say I. think we should often start by asking.

not what do I wish to achieve, but who. do I wish to become? And how are my. actions reinforcing that? And if you can. get those two things aligned, now you. have a really deep throughine from your. daily actions to this bigger, larger. identity that you want to build. And if. you can connect the things that you do. each day, those small choices with the. person that you want to be in the long. run, you can see how important they are. even when they're little. >> I want to make sure that as you're. listening or watching, you really got. that question. Who do I want to become?

If you start there and you start with a. vision for the kind of person you want. to become and then we invert that onion. that you were talking about. So you know. who you want to become. Then you ask. yourself, well, how do I become that. kind of person and what do I need to do? Now we have a road map that leads you to. the small daily habits that cast the. vote to get you there. >> I think what we're ultimately trying to. get to is a place where you take pride. in being that kind of person. Well, this. brings us to one of my absolute favorite. parts of Atomic Habits and your.

research. This changed my entire mindset. and honestly changed the type of person. that I am. And it's the difference. between setting goals versus focusing on. systems. And so I want to read to you. from this section titled forget about. goals, focus on systems instead. And. you're right, for many years, uh, this. was how I approached my habits. Each one.

was a goal to be reached. I set goals. for the grades I wanted to get in. school, for the weights I wanted to lift. in the gym, for the profits I wanted to. earn in business. I succeeded at a few, but I failed at a lot of them. The. results had very little to do with the. goals I set and nearly everything to do. with the systems I followed. What's the. difference between systems and goals? It's a distinction. I first learned from. Scott Adams, a cartoonist behind the. Dilbert comic. Goals are about the. results you want to achieve. Systems are.

about the processes that lead to those. results. And you write about this just. one example that made so much sense. If. you're a coach, your goal might be to. win a championship, but your system is. the way you recruit players, manage your. assistant coaches, and conduct practice. and you pose this interesting question. What if you completely ignored your. goals and you focused on your system?

And I'd love to unpack this because I do. think that this is where I got things. wrong for so long. I was very focused on. defining goals and I spent little to no. time really looking at the systems that. create progress toward those goals. Can. you unpack this for us? >> I was like that too. I think of my. nature is I'm naturally very goal. oriented and outcome oriented and you. know we all want better results, right? >> Um so I don't think goals are ever going.

to be like a zero in your life and. you're never going to think about them. It's just so natural to focus on them. What I'm trying to encourage here is to. focus on the other side of the equation. which is the daily habits that you are. following. If I was going to put a. little finer point on the language. there, what do I mean by goal and. system? >> Yes, >> your goal is your desired outcome, the. target, the thing you're shooting for. What is your system? It's the collection. of daily habits that you follow. And if. there is ever a gap between your goal. and your system, if there's ever a gap.

between your desired outcome and your. daily habits, your daily habits will. always win. I mean, almost by. definition, your current habits are. perfectly designed to deliver your. current results. Whatever habits you've. been following for the last 6 months or. year or two years, it's carried you. almost inevitably to the outcomes that. you have right now. So, where I've kind. of come down on this after thinking. about it for a little while is goals are. good for clarity. They're good for. setting a sense of direction. Get. everybody rowing the boat in the same. same direction. They can be good for.

filtering. So, if somebody comes to you. with an opportunity and they say, "Hey, do you want to do this?" You can run it. through your list of goals and say, "Well, does this get me closer to what I. want or not?" Maybe it makes it easier. to say yes or no to that. But the vast. majority of your time should be spent. focused on building a better system. Goals are good for people who care about. winning once. Systems are best for. people who care about winning. repeatedly. >> You know, if you really want to make. progress and make it again and again, if. you want to get high performance and. keep the performance high, you need some.

set of systems, some collection of daily. habits to keep you up there. The other. interesting thing that I realized is. that the winners and the losers often. have the same goals. You know, if you. have a job opening and 100 people apply, presumably every candidate has the goal. of getting the job. the goal is not the. thing that determines the outcome. It's. presentation skills in the interview, who they know at the company, education, experience, like all sorts of things, right? Or um you know, at the Olympics, presumably every athlete who's competing.

has the goal of winning the gold medal. You know, the goal is not the thing that. determines the outcome. Again, it's. genetic ability, talent, coaching, strategy, how much sleep they got the. night before, like all sorts of factors. And so if the winners and the losers. have the same goals, the goal cannot be. the thing that makes the difference in. their performance. It has to be. something else. And that something else. is the system. It's their daily habits. So you've talked a lot about this word. systems. I would love to have you just. break down some for some of the habits.

that people tend to. take on a lot. What about for saving. money? What might be a system just to. jog the person who's listening? So, here's an interesting one that one of my. readers uses. Saving money is an. interesting and there's an interesting. category of habits which are things that. you basically don't do and then you need. to feel good about it. Like saving money. is basically when I don't spend is when. I'm achieving this goal. And you know, it's like not playing video games or. don't drink wine. Like things like that.

are uh tricky to feel good about because. you're just resisting doing something. >> So, [snorts] I thought this was a clever. solution. I have I have this one reader. He and his wife wanted to eat out less, spend less money eating out at. restaurants and cook at home more. But. again, if you just, well, we're not. going to go out to eat tonight, that. doesn't really feel great. So, what they. came up with was they opened a separate. savings account and they labeled it trip. to Europe. And then anytime that they. stayed home, they would move 20 or 50. bucks or whatever over that they were. going to spend that night. They move.

that over to the account. And what they. get in the moment is the feeling of, oh, we're building toward this vacation that. we want to go on. Um, and then at the. end of the year, they took the money and. put it toward the trip. Um, and so they. found a way to take something that. usually doesn't have much of a benefit. and give it a positive association, a. positive feeling. And so that was part. of their system for saving money or for. not eating out was well first we're. going to move the money over and then. we're going to choose what recipe recipe.

are we making tonight and then we go. into the kitchen and prep it and. whatever. And so it's just a simple. couple pro steps but it makes it a lot. more enjoyable. >> What about a system for eating. healthier? >> Eating healthier is interesting and it's. a tricky one. Um, I think it provides a. good example of people will say. something that they think is simple, but. it's actually not that simple. They. think they're making it easy and simple, but they need to scale it down even. more. So, like let's say somebody says, "All right, I'm just going to focus on. one habit. I'm just going to try to eat.

healthy.". >> Well, you know what is involved in that, right? Like, if you're if you're. currently eating a lot of meals out or. ordering a lot of meals. Well, first you. need to decide what you're going to. make. You need a grocery shopping habit. So, you got to get the stuff. You need. some meal prep habits. Maybe you even. need new skills like do you need knife. skills or like learn how to do some. stuff that maybe didn't know how to do. before. After you make the meal, you. have a bunch of dishes that need to be. cleaned. So now you need to develop like. a cleaning habit of washing those. So. there's actually like six or seven. things that are all separate habits. So.

I would say you can try to scale this. down and start easy on yourself. And. maybe you know for like let's take doing. the dishes for example, maybe for the. first week you just eat off of paper. plates. And no, it's not super. sustainable. It's not the thing that you. want to do forever, but you're trying to. take one element out of the equation so. that you make it easier for yourself to. do it. Um, another example that I. thought was interesting, I talked to one. woman who she took this idea of, we. talked about earlier, what would this. look like if it was fun? >> So, she wanted to start eating healthier. and bring her her lunch into work each.

day, but she realized the making a salad. didn't sound that fun to her. Yeah. >> And so, she came up with this phrase. that she called a party in a bowl. And. so she would make a salad, but she would. do like all kinds of wild things at the. start, like she would chop up Snickers. bars and throw them in or she would like. crumble potato chips on top or whatever. She just wanted it to feel like a party. in a bowl. And she did that for the. first like two weeks or month. And then. after a month of bringing her lunch in, she was like, "Okay, now I'm actually. making it every morning." Um, then she. was like, "How can I make this.

healthier? Um, how can I, you know, improve the quality of this?" And so. >> I love, by the way, the potato chips on. the salad. I think that sounds. fantastic. What a great idea. Little. crunch, >> right? >> Little salt, >> texture seems good. Um, but you know, how do you make it fun? How do you. increase the odds that you master the. art of showing up? That's kind of that's. the like first hurdle to clear. >> Yeah. And what I also loved is that. you're identifying for us the fact that. we trip over ourselves because we make. the results that we want either too big.

or too vague. that we underestimate the. complexity of the amount of change we're. asking ourselves to make. >> If you start with perfection as the bar, it becomes really hard to get started. >> How do you think or what have some of. your readers said about the systems and. habits related to cutting back on. something like drinking or vaping or one. of those things? >> Yes. Let's talk a little bit about. breaking bad habits. There's kind of. there's if if you want to break a bad. habit, yes, >> there are three different things you. could do. So, first thing is you could. eliminate it entirely. So, cut it out. cold turkey. All right. Second way to.

break a bad habit is you could reduce. it. So you don't necessarily stop it, you just reduce it to your desired. degree. I would say a lot of people. probably feel this way about their. phones. It's not that I never want to. use my phone. I just want to use it a. little bit less or scroll a little bit. less or whatever. >> Yes. >> Um and then the third category is you. could replace it. >> So you can eliminate, you can reduce, or. you can replace. Those are really your. three options if you want to break a bad. habit. And if you replace it, then. you're substituting a new habit in its. place. Um hopefully one that's more. healthier or more productive. >> [snorts]. >> Um, let me kind of answer these in.

reverse order. All right, so replace it. Habits, we talked a little bit early on. about some ways to define a habit. Here's another way to define it. A habit. is a solution to a recurring problem in. your environment. Right? So, it's a. solution to a recurring problem that you. face. Let's say, for example, you come. home from work and it's 5:30 and you're. feeling exhausted and tired from a long. day. All right? That is a recurring. problem that is going to happen. throughout the weeks and months that. your brain has to figure out how to. solve. And for one person, maybe they.

solve it by scrolling on Instagram for. 30 minutes. >> For another person, the way they solve. it is maybe they smoke a cigarette. For. a third person, maybe the way they solve. it is they go for a run. And you can see. that some of these solutions are. healthier than others, but they're all. solving the same root problem, which is. I feel stressed and exhausted and tired. after a long day, and I want to find a. way to reset and kind of change my. energy. [snorts]. >> Um, and early in your life, I think. particularly in your 20s, you may have. this realization where the solutions.

that you have to the problems that you. face are kind of things that you. inherited or you picked up from your. parents. uh you know what are the odds. that the first way that you learn to. solve this problem is the best way. mathematically speaking it's very. unlikely that the way that your current. solutions to the problems that you face. are the best solutions. >> So let me just give you an example. So. if you uh grew up in a household where. you saw mom or dad come home from a long. day at work and they poured themselves a. glass of wine as a way to unwind, turn.

off their brain, step into the evening. If you inherited that habit as the way. you solve the problem of I've had a long. day at work, I'm totally stressed. I. want a quick way to de-stress. And the. habit is pour a glass of wine or pour a. drink. That's an example of the type of. thing you're talking about. >> Yeah. And I think the first step is not. to judge yourself for it or to feel. guilty about it. You don't you don't. need to feel bad about it. It's just. it's almost like sometimes I try to look. at my habits almost like I'm going to. the zoo. You know how you like go and.

look at an animal, you're like, "Oh, how. interesting that they would do that.". You know, like, "Oh, oh, isn't that. silly that they behave in that way?". Like you kind of look at yourself with. that lens. You're like, "Oh, okay. Interesting that I'm doing this." Um, [snorts]. >> and you just want to see things clearly. >> And then once you see how you're. actually behaving, well, then there are. adjustments that you can make. And I. think at that point, you realize, all. right, it's not my fault necessarily. that I'm doing these things or that I. learned this way to do it, [snorts] but. now it is my responsibility to make the. change. The next level is you say, "All.

right, I'm going to try to reduce the. amount of time that I do this." One way. that I try to practice this, so I have a. home office and I have this little rule. where I try to keep my phone in another. room until lunch each day. Um, usually. it ends up being like 9 to 11, 9 to. noon, something like that. And I can't. do it all the time, but I can do it. maybe 70% of the time. And whenever I do. it, I think it's interesting because. it's like the phone is just down the. hallway. It's only 30 seconds away, but. I never go get it. And so I'm like, did. I want it or not? You know, on the one.

hand, I wanted it so bad that when it. was next to me, I would check it every 3. minutes. And on the other hand, I never. wanted it badly enough that I would be. willing to work 30 seconds and go down. the hall and get it. And a lot of your. habits are like that. They will curtail. themselves to the desired degree if you. just introduce a little bit of distance. or a little bit of friction. The more. that um you increase friction between. you and the behavior, the more likely it. is to reduce itself. Mhm. >> So there are a lot of environmental. changes that could potentially work. there. >> Talk to us about the environment and the.

role that environment plays in terms of. sticking to habits. >> There's a chapter in atomic habits. that's called the secret to. self-control. >> And there's a story that many of us tell. ourselves which is oh you know if I was. just more disciplined, if I just had. more self-control then I would be able. to do these things. But the big takeaway. from the research in that chapter, the. surprising insight is that when you look. at people who exhibit high levels of. self-control, the common pattern across.

them is not that they have higher. discipline than the average person. The. common pattern is that they are in. situations where they're attempted less. frequently. >> Tempted less frequently. Fewer. temptations is the single biggest driver. of exhibiting high self-control. And so. the the lesson is you don't need to try. to be more disciplined. You don't need. to wish that you were a person with more. willpower. You need to take a little bit. of time to design an environment where. you're not tempted as frequently. So. that could mean simple things like not.

having chips in the house or not having. cigarettes in the house or things like. that. Um it could mean more complicated. things like looking at your. relationships and saying who are the. people that have the behaviors that I. want to have. You know what what are the. common habits of my friend group or my. peer group? And that's not necessarily. saying I never see these people again, but maybe I only see them in pockets, you know, or in certain situations. And. then other people I'm trying to expose. myself to more and hang out with more. And um so those are all ways that you. can start to think about where are the.

temptations in my life or where am I. having to where do I need to go against. the grain of the situation to have the. habits that I want to have and where am. I working with the gradient of the. situation. >> and working with because it's actually. taking me in the direction of the kind. of person I want to become and working. against is you recognize you're in an. environment that is taking you away from. the kind of person you want to become. Let's stay for a second on. people. What are the systems or changes.

or ways that that you think about being. surrounded by people. >> that are supporting who you want to. become? >> It's a huge driver of our habits. There. there's a chapter in Atomic Habits um. about the influence of friends and. family on our behaviors. And I think if. I could write it again, I would even. expand it because it's it's even bigger. than I think I realized. So humans are. very social creatures. We we all have a. deep desire to bond and connect to to be.

part of something. And if people have to. choose between, you know, I have habits. that I don't really love, but I fit in, I belong, I'm part of something, I'm. supported, or I have the habits that I. want to have, but I'm cast out. I'm. ostracized, I'm criticized. A lot of the time, the desire to belong. will overpower the desire to improve. And so, as best as possible, you need to. get those two things aligned. Um, and I.

think the way to do it is you want to. join groups where your desired behavior. is the normal behavior. Because if your. desired behavior is normal, as you make. friendships and build relationships in. that group, you're going to soak up so. many big and little habits from the. people that are part of that group. We. all belong to multiple groups or. multiple tribes. Some of them are large, like what it means to be American or. what it means to be French. Some of them. are small, like what it means to be a. neighbor on your street or a member of. the local CrossFit gym or a volunteer at.

the elementary school. But all of those. groups, large and small, have a set of. expectations for how you act. You know, like take the neighbor on the street. example. If I walk outside and look at. my neighbor's house and they're mowing. the lawn, I might think, "Oh, I need to. cut the grass, too." And you might stick. to that habit for 5 years or 10 years, however long you live in the house. Like, we wish we had that level of. consistency with our other habits. And. why do you do it? Partially you do it. because it feels good to have a clean. lawn, but mostly you do it because you. don't want to be the sloppy one who's.

like ruining how the neighborhood looks. So you want to join groups where your. desired habits align with the. expectations of the group so that you. don't have to run against that friction. >> [snorts]. >> one of the best things that I ever did. in my entrepreneurial career. So, I have. no authors in my family, no. entrepreneurs in my family, but I um. looked around and I said, "Who are some. other people that are doing the thing. that I want to do, you know, they're. like two or three years ahead of me?". This was like maybe 10 years ago. >> And I started hosting these retreats. where I would get other authors. together, six or eight people, and I.

say, "Let's just split the cost of an. Airbnb, get together for like two days, and we'll talk about how to build an. audience and how to write a book and how. to launch a book." Um, so anyway, the. point being that requires a little bit. of courage, you know, like I I reached. out to people. I was always worried that. I was going to look like a dummy and, you know, be like, "You want to go hang. out for two days?" And everybody be. like, "No." You know, but um, but. everybody says yes because they're. waiting for the same thing, which is. people want like-minded people to get. together. They're waiting for somebody. to gather people together. >> So, um, sometimes the spaces are ready.

for you. Sometimes it requires a little. bit of courage to create it, but the. outcome is the same, which is you're. trying to put yourself in a room with. people who have your desired behaviors. >> James, what are the four stages of. building habits? >> Well, all habits go through this kind of. four-step loop here. I can draw it out. >> Great. So, he's grabbing a quick. whiteboard if you're listening. >> So, you have these four stages almost. like a a quadrant, but you you start and. the beginning of it is there's some kind. of Q. >> Okay? So, I'll just put a C there for Q. Okay? Right? So you have the Q and that.

leads to a craving which then drives a. response and then ultimately you get a. reward and so you kind of go around the. loop like this. >> Q craving response reward Q craving. response reward and it's true for little. things like let's [snorts] say that you. um walk into a room the room is dark and. you the cue is oh the room's dark I want. to be able to see. >> the craving is I want to be able to see. the response is I flip the light switch. and then the reward is oh now the lights.

are on, I can see. Um, but it's true for. other stuff, too. Like the cue might be. um you're driving down the road and you. hear an ambulance come up from behind. you. The siren is an auditory cue. Okay? >> Or your phone buzzes in your pocket. That's a physical cue that starts the. habit of checking your phone. Or um you. see a plate of cookies on the counter in. the kitchen. That's a visual cue that. starts the habit of eating a cookie. So, you have the queue that leads to the. craving. Um you hear the s the siren. from the ambulance. Oh, now I need to. pull to the side of the road. Oh, and. the craving is just the impulse to do.

something. >> The desire, the mo, the the desire to do. something. So, Q, craving, response, reward. Um, >> and you know what's interesting is now. I'm understanding as you're explaining a. habit. >> is that you're not even really thinking. about those things. They're just all. kind of sandwiched together in that loop. you just drew. >> It can happen almost instantaneously, like all inside of a whole second, you. know, like it's but it it's very rapid. and it's um once a habit is established, it's almost entirely non-concious. How. does that connect to the four laws that.

you created around behavior change? >> So, we have this scientific backbone, these four stages, Q, craving, response, reward. And we know that our behaviors. are going through that cycle each day. And what I care about is how do I. operationalize that? How do I translate. this into something actionable for daily. life and work? And so, that's why I came. up with what I call the four laws of. behavior change. >> All right. Well, let's go into the four. laws. >> So, the first law is to make it obvious. You want the cues of your habits to be. obvious, available, visible, easy to. see. The easier it is for a habit to be.

noticed and for it to get your. attention, the more likely are to act on. it. The second law is to make it. attractive. So, this comes back to that. question we asked earlier about what. would this look like if it was fun. >> Yeah. >> The more fun, the more engaging, the. more um motivating or enticing a habit. is, the more likely you are to follow. through on it. All right. So, make it. attractive. The third law is to make it. easy. The easier, more convenient, frictionless, simple a habit is, the.

more likely it is to be performed. And. the fourth and final law is to make it. satisfying. So the more satisfying or. enjoyable a habit is, the more rewarding. or pleasurable it is, the more likely. you are to feel compelled to do it. The. first three laws, make it obvious, make. it attractive, make it easy. Those three. are about priming you to get started. They're about making it easy to get into. the habit this time. The fourth law, make it satisfying. That like closes the. feedback loop. The behavior's already. happened at that point, but the reward.

is important because it helps you feel. good. >> and that gets you to show up again the. next time. Make it obvious, make it. attractive, make it easy, make it. satisfying. >> If you're trying to build a new habit, if you're sitting there and you're. thinking, you know, I have. >> this habit that I want to do, but I keep. procrastinating on it. >> Let's take let's take exercising since. that's the number one thing people want. to do. I wish I could get to the gym, but I. just haven't been doing that. You can. just go through these four laws and ask. yourself, how can I make the habit more. obvious? How can I make it more. attractive? How can I make it easier?

How can I make it more satisfying? And. the answers to those four questions will. reveal different steps that you can. take. They're naturally going to. generate answers for things that you. could do. They're kind of like levers. And when the levers are in the right. positions, building habits is easier. And when they're in the wrong positions, building habits is harder. Um, I want to see if this example maps. to those four steps and it's related to. making exercise stick. So, making it.

obvious, one of the things that I did. that made a difference is laying my. clothes out the night before so that. when I wake up in the morning, I see the. clothes and that's the cue. >> Yep. >> Uh-oh. I said I would exercise today. I. make it attractive by saying I'm going. to go somewhere outside my house like to. a yoga studio or something. >> I think it's what you did earlier. What. didn't you say? You didn't like working. out on your own, but you do like a. class. Yes. >> So, it's it's choosing a version of that.

habit that is fun and attractive to you. A class is more attractive. >> The third one is I picked it the night. before. >> So, now it's easy to know. I don't have. to stop and think. I don't have to look. at a schedule. I don't have to fit it in. cuz I made it easy because I picked it. the night before and satisfying. There's. a coffee shop next door that makes a. great ice latte. >> and I. have it when. >> that's when that's your reward for when. you get done. >> Yes. >> So, yeah, I think it definitely maps and. you can imagine lots of versions of. this. I do think the obvious piece is.

often about knowing exactly when you're. going to go or setting your clothes out. the night before or having, you know, there's some kind of obvious element in. your environment there. The attractive. piece is usually choosing a version of. exercise that you're really excited. about. The easy piece, I think, can. often be about scaling it down. So, make. it 10 minute or take 10 push-ups instead. of the other one. >> Exactly. Rather than an hour, it can be. for 10 minutes or whatever. It's, you. know, scaling down the the scope of it. And if you can do more, great. Go ahead. and do more. But you're what you. consider a success is the smaller.

version. Um, and then the reward in the. beginning, a lot of the time I think it. looks like what you just described, which is it's the latte or it's the, you. know, whatever the thing is. >> I actually crave it as I'm driving to. the yoga studio. I'm not thinking about. getting on the mat. I'm like, "Oo, I get. a latte after.". >> Sure. Which is great. Um, in the long. run, sometimes takes a decade or more. It can become the reinforcement of the. identity that you want to have. So, for. me, I I work out now because I Yeah. I. like the results everybody else wants,

right? Like you want to look good and. stay fit and be able to move when you're. 70 and you know all that stuff. Um, but. I also do it because I like who I am. when I'm doing it. >> Steven Presfield has this concept where. he says, uh, he's talking about writing, but he says in the beginning you start. creating and you feel kind of like an. imposttor. You sit down to write. It's. kind of hard. It's difficult. You don't. really feel like you fit. Um, [snorts]. but a wolf has its territory. And the. way that it becomes its territory is by.

walking it, by showing up every day, by. being there. And it's not its territory. the first day, but eventually after it's. been there for a while, it starts to. feel like home. And all of your habits. are kind of like that, too. You know, the first day you go to the gym, you. feel kind of stupid and foolish. You're. like, are people, you know, looking at. me? Am I doing this the wrong way? You. feel out of place. You go for 6 months. or a year, you start to get a little bit. more comfortable. maybe it still doesn't. feel like home yet. Turn around 2 or 3. or 5 years later and you're like, "This. is just part of what I do. This is my. territory now." And the only way you.

develop that level of comfort is by. being willing to go through a little bit. of discomfort early on. You know, like. sometimes I try to remind myself, am I. willing to look foolish for 5 minutes or. am I willing to be uncomfortable for. five minutes? That's really all you're. talking about. My So I I've been working. with a trainer recently and he told me. this story. He was teaching a class in. the morning and it was a bad weather. day. There was it was just rainy and. really gross. It was kind of cold and. just gray. It was just kind of nasty. >> And he was supposed to have eight people.

in his class and he showed up and only. two were there. And I we were talking. about I I think that's kind of. interesting, you know, because the. workout's indoors, right? The workout. once you get to the gym, the workout's. the same as it always is. Um it's no. different as is when it's sunny and the. sky is blue. >> True. But what you really notice there. is just how little bit of an edge you. need to gain an advantage um or to to. have a different outcome than most. people. Six of those eight people didn't.

show up. Not because of the workout. The. workout's the same as always. It's. because they didn't want to be. uncomfortable for like 5 or 10 minutes. getting ready, getting through the rain, getting in the car. It was just kind of. gross enough that it let them ignore it. >> Yeah. Um, and so. in a lot of ways, what this all boils. down to is getting started. It's being, are you willing to get started? Are you. willing to be uncomfortable for 3. minutes? And if you can get over that. hump, then the rest of it kind of. cascades naturally.

>> You write about the two-minute rule. What is that? >> It's a really easy way to um force. yourself to get started. I hope that you. find all the ideas interesting and. useful that we talked about today. But. if you can only remember one thing, the. two-minute rule is a good thing to. remember. And I say that because it can. be applied to pretty much any habit. So. you take whatever habit you're trying to. build and you scale it down to something. that takes 2 minutes or less to do. >> So. meditation. >> Yeah. Meditate um meditate for 20.

minutes becomes becomes meditate for one. minute. Uh read 30 books a year becomes. read one page. do yoga four days a week. becomes take out my yoga mat. And. sometimes when I tell people this, they. resist it a little bit. They're like, "Okay, buddy." You know, I know the real. goal isn't just to take my yoga mat out. I know I'm actually trying to do the. workout, you know? So, you're like, "Okay, if I know it's a trick, and why. would I fall for it?" Basically, >> but there's this great quote from Ed. Latimore where he says, "The heaviest. weight at the gym is the front door.". And man, there are a lot of things in.

life that are like that. You know, the. hardest action is the first movement. The most difficult step is the first. one. And once getting when you're in the. work, once you've already started, it's. often easier to keep going. Um, it's. starting the work that is the hard part. All the friction is at the beginning. There's this concept in physics, coefficient of friction. The friction is. highest when you're not moving. It's. once you're moving that things start to. go a little bit easier. Momentum works. in both ways. You know, like if you sit. on the couch and you ruminate on, you. know, how things aren't going well in.

your life, you feel kind of lethargic. Like that's easy to be low energy and. for things to not go well right then. But you start moving a little bit. Even. it's just stretch on the floor for 5. minutes. Now you start to move forward. and things go, you know, go a little bit. faster. >> You know, speaking of friction, there's. a concept that is floating around called. habit stacking. What is that? >> Habit stacking. I think habit stacking. is a great um approach for building. habits. It's a concept that comes from. BJ Fog. He's a professor at Stanford and.

he had a great insight which is [snorts]. habits tend to be easier to build or. stick to if they're tied to a behavior. that you're already doing. So we all. have habits that we already do. Okay? Like maybe you already make a cup of. coffee every morning. >> Yep. >> And your new habit that you want to. build is you want to start meditating. So you can stack that new habit on top. of the old one. So your habit stack. could be something like after I make my. morning cup of coffee, I will meditate.

for 60 seconds. And then you know you. can start to chain this together. You. could like create multiples. So you. could say after I make my cup of coffee, I will meditate for 60 seconds. After I. meditate for 60 seconds, I will write my. to-do list for the day. After I write my. to-do list for the day, I will. prioritize them and start working on the. first one or whatever. And now you've. got a little stack, a little package of. behaviors that happens the same way. every time. And you do it each morning. And uh from talking with a lot of. readers, people like to use these at. certain moments throughout their day. People like habit stacks in the morning.

I have a lot of readers who they'll come. up with one for what they do when they. get into the office. They'll be like, I. go into the office, I hang up my jacket, I set my purse on the desk, I take my. water bottle, and I fill it up. And then. I sit down and I answer the first email. And I always do it in the same order. And that like helps me get into the day, and I just know exactly what I'm going. to do when I get there. Um, sometimes. you'll see people have one like a power. down routine at the end of the day, uh, to kind of help them, you know, wrap the. day up and get ready for bed and. whatever. So, you can use it anywhere. Um, I have some readers who have come up. with very creative ones. I had one guy.

who was he was such a bro and really. liked going to the gym and um, he was. not managing his finances well and so. his new habit stack was whenever I drink. a protein shake, I will check my. finances. Um, and it just it happened. frequently enough that it would force. him to check in on his budget and stay. more on top of it. Um, so you can do you. can do strange ones like that. You have. to be willing to experiment. >> Um, you know, I atomic habits I I've. tried to lay everything out that I can.

like I wanted it I I don't know whether. I reached or not but my objective when I. was writing was I want to write the. single best book that's ever been. written about habits. But even so, even. if in some magical world I achieve that. outcome, you as an individual still have. to be willing to experiment because what. matters is does it work for your life, you know? And so you got to maybe you. need to rearrange the habit stack. Maybe. you need to change when you're inserting. things. You know, for one person, putting the uh meditating right after a. cup of coffee makes a lot of sense. If. you have three toddlers and you're.

trying to get pants on your. four-year-old, that's not a good time to. meditate, you know? So you need to find. the right time of day to insert um your. habits and behaviors and that requires a. little bit of experimentation. >> So for somebody who has a a goal that's. really big, whether it's I want to write. a novel, I want to start a business, I. want to take on a big project, and. they're clear about that. What would you. recommend is the one habit to build. first since that's such a big goal out.

there? >> Interestingly, I would so I'd say. there's probably two things to focus on. first. The first is you probably need a. habit of reflection and review. >> What does that mean? >> Well, what are the odds that if you keep your. head down and you work really hard that. you're going to be working on the hard. the highest and best thing? it's just so. unlikely that out of all the things that. you could be doing that you're working. on the best thing right now. And so it. it's this interesting tension because on.

the one hand having a great work ethic. and working hard is really valuable in. life. And um it does pay off in some. sense like you can't get results without. working on things. [snorts] But it can. also become a crutch where if you like. for myself a lot of the time I I know. for many years like if I had a problem. my solution was I'll just work my way. out of it. And uh that works for a. little while, but at some point it. breaks, you know, like you break. yourself down and then also you can only. work so much. Like you maybe if you. really grinded you could work 10% harder.

than you are right now, but you can't. work 100% harder or like 100x harder. It's not possible. Yeah. >> Um but you could work on something else. that gets you 100x the result if you're. working on the right thing. Um and so. for any project, you know, this. hypothetical question that you asked is. what if I have this big goal? I have a. business I want to launch. I have, you. know, an initiative I want to start. I. have, you know, whatever. Um, there's going to be many ways to do it. And you need to have at least some time. to sit and think each week and come back.

to saying, are we doing this the right. way? You know, if we I think if you if. you have two things in life, if you have. a bias toward action and you really move. fast. >> and you continually revisit this. question of what are we really trying to. do here and is this the best way to do. it? If you can do those two things and. you just keep doing them on repeat, you. can really get a lot done in life. But. but you need both. Um and so that that's. the second thing I was going to mention. is uh this bias toward action. It's. getting started. It's finding some small. way to move. Now um my little saying.

that I try to remind myself of is don't. rush but don't wait. >> You know, I find that if I am in the. mix, if I'm taking action, if I'm. working on things, then that's great. I. need to be patient. I need to let the. results accumulate. But if I'm not. actually taking action, I'm not being. patient. I'm just waiting and uh. nothing's going to happen in that case. So both thinking big picture, what are. we really trying to do here? And is this. the best way to accomplish it? And then. having a bias toward action and moving.

fast. Those two things work really well. together. >> Amazing advice. You know, one of the. things you said at the very beginning is. that the secret to winning is knowing. how to lose. What do you do? And how do you pick. yourself back up if you've had a little. bit of a good streak and then you don't. go to the gym or you don't write or you. start to drink again? Like those like. how do you start the engine up again? And what's the mistake you see people. making? >> So I try to keep this little mantra in.

mind which is never miss twice. And so. you know maybe I show up and I you know. do the right thing. I've been writing. for six days in a row and then the. seventh day I miss. Well, you know, I. wish I hadn't missed, but that's okay. Let me pour all my energy into getting. back on track the next day. And what you. realize is that at the end of the year, those mistakes are just like a little. blip on the radar. But that's only true. if you never miss twice. It's only true. if you get back on track quickly. And I. think you see this in many domains, which is the top performers have this.

interesting quality. They're all human. They all make mistakes like everybody. else. But the thing that they share is. they tend to get back on track quickly. >> And [snorts] if the reclaiming of a. habit is fast, the breaking of it. doesn't matter that much. But it's it's. all about getting back on track that. matters. So it's again, it's this. concept of bouncing back from a loss. that um that is really critical. >> James Clear, what are your parting. words? >> No matter what the habit is that you're. trying to build, it's easy to talk. yourself out of it because you know that.

the results aren't going to be good. right away. But like your favorite. athletes first workout was just as bad. as yours. You know, your favorite chef's. first meal was just as bad as yours. Your favorite writer's first sentence. was just as bad as yours. You need to. keep going. You need to do the early low. stakes stuff to prepare for the high. stakes stuff to to build the capacity. and the ability to do the other things. And so don't overlook the small moments. that you have each day. you every day.

has an opportunity built into it. You. know, whatever whatever age you are. right now, your future self would love. to be it. When you're 70, you would give. anything to go back and be 60 again and. have the opportunity of those next 10. years. And you should use that as best. as you can. And whether that's a small. moment like a little dance recital or. some stupid little speech that you're. going to give to your friends or. whatever it is, try to do it well. You. know, whatever thing that you have in. front of you, try to do it well. If you. do it well, if you take advantage of the.

moment that you have, you earn the right. to do more things, you um prove to. yourself that you have high standards. and that you take advantage of the. opportunities that are in front of you. and you put yourself in a better. position to gain more opportunities. We. all have varying degrees of luck or. circumstances or misfortune or whatever. that come to us in life. a lot of things. that we ask for and a lot of things that. we don't ask for. But all you can do is. try to use the moments that you have to. the best of your ability. And the better.

you do that, the better positioned you. are to not only build good habits, but. have a good life. >> James Clear, I I don't even have words. I am so proud of you. I am so grateful. for the work that you do. >> Thank you so much, Mel. I appreciate it. It's great to have you as a fan and as a. supporter of the work. And um yeah, I. hope the audience loves it, too. >> I'm sure they will. And I also want to. thank you for finding time and making. time to listen to this episode in. particular and to share it with people. that you care about. The amount of.

takeaways, the amount of just advice and. tools that James just gave you, I want. you to ask that question, who do I want. to become? And then I want you to follow. every single thing he told you because. it will work. I'm going to keep. listening to this. I'm going to share. this with all three of my adult kids and. our entire team. This is one of the best. episodes we ever done. So, I'm. absolutely thrilled that you were here. And in case no one else tells you, I. wanted to be sure to tell you as your. friend that I love you and I believe in.

you and I believe in your ability to. create a better life because James Clear. just gave you the road map for how you. [laughter] do it. So, go do it. And I'll. be waiting to welcome you in to the very. next episode the moment you hit play. I'll see you there. And thank you for. watching all the way to the end here on. YouTube. I love that. I love that. And. thank you, by the way, for hitting. [music] subscribe. If it's lit up, it. means you're not subscribed. Just take a. second, hit that. It's free. It's a way. that you can say, "Hey, thanks, Mel.

Thanks for showing up here and doing. your best to support me in creating a. better life." And that way, by the way, if you're a subscriber, you're not going. to miss a thing. Okay, we just dug into. habits. So, you're probably thinking, Mel, what should I watch next? Oh, you're going to love this one. and I'll. welcome you in the moment you hit. [music] play.