The Most Eye-Opening Conversation on Marriage & Love You Will Ever Hear (From #1 Divorce Lawyer)

Today you're going to learn the best. relationship advice that you will ever. hear. This is one of the most [music]. impactful conversations I have ever had. on this podcast. >> Most people who are married would like. to have a happy marriage. So just like. most people would like to be in good. shape, the question is not what do you. want, it's what are you willing to trade. for it because you want happiness. The. majority of marriages end [music] in. divorce. Over 50% end in divorce. And.

that's just the ones that. catastrophically failed. Think about how. many people, they're unhappy. They never. really become the most authentic version. of themselves. They stay together for. the kids or cuz they don't want to give. away half [music] their things. Every. marriage ends. It ends in death or. divorce. Marriage is like [music] the. lottery. You're probably not going to. win. But if you win, what you win is so. fantastic. Why wouldn't you buy a. ticket? Why wouldn't you try? James Ston. is one of the top divorce attorneys in. the world. He has had a front row seat.

to the reason why marriages fall apart. Today, he'll teach you what those. mistakes are [music] and convince you. that a few small changes are the secret. to creating lasting [music]. and loving relationships. What are the. signs. >> that you are headed for a breakup or for. divorce? Disconnection is the number one. cause of divorce, but there's a whole. bunch of other symptoms that come from. [music] disconnection that are easy to. point to and say, "Well, that was the. cause." But it wasn't the cause. The.

cause was the disconnection. [music] No. single raindrop was responsible for the. flood, but the flood's nothing but. little raindrops. >> If you had to save a marriage with one. [music] thing, what would it be? >> In 25 years of practicing matrimonial. law, what I'd say to you is, >> "Hey, it's Mel." Now, before we get into. this episode with James Ston, which I'm. telling you is dynamite, like fire. Boy, did you pick a winner. My team was. showing me that 53% of you who are.

watching here on YouTube are not. subscribed. My goal is to get that. number down to 50% by the end of this. year. And so, here's my ask. You love. supporting people who support you. If. you're enjoying the content that we're. producing here on the Mel Robbins. Podcast, please hit subscribe. It's the. easiest way for you to say, "Hey, Mel. Hey, Mel's team. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you." Best way for you to show. support. And it tells us you love the. content. You love the guests. And. speaking of guests that you love, holy. cow, one of the single best guests we.

have ever had. Thanks for hitting. subscribe. Now, please help me welcome. James Ston to the Mel Robbins Podcast. James Stton, welcome to the Mel Robbins. Podcast. >> Great to be here. >> I have so many questions for you, but. where I want to start is this. How could my life be different if I take. everything to heart that you're about to. teach me today and I apply it to my life. and my relationship? What what what. could change? >> Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, as a. practicing divorce lawyer for 25 plus.

years, I have a really unique vantage. point. You know, a lot of relationship. advice that people get and people give. it. It's coming from a psychology. background. It's coming from a a. hypothetical theoretical background and. again has tremendous value but it's not. like in the trenches and it's not this. really raw candid version cuz I think. people lie to their therapists all the. time but they don't lie to their lawyer. like your doctor and your lawyer are the. two people you should never lie to under. any circumstances. Everything we're.

doing is to protect you and everything. we're saying is subject to privilege. So. you can tell us the rawhanded truth. And. I think that's created in me a a unique. perspective on, you know, like if you. wanted to figure out how to keep your. car in good shape, don't talk to the car. salesman. All they do is deal with new. cars. Talk to the mechanic. Like talk to. the person who's seen every way a car. can break down and we'll say to you, "Hey, here's the stress points. Here's. where I find this model of car tends to.

break and here's how you could shore. that up and prevent it." So a lot of. what I try to give people instead of. like platitudes like oh you need to. maintain connection with like what does. that mean? Like I I need to know what. that means like if I'm trying to fix my. relationship or keep my relationship on. track and you say stay connected. Okay. Do you mean like a date night or more. sex or should we go on vacation or. should I be asking different questions. when we're having breakfast together or. should we be having breakfast together? Like what what do you mean? Like I need. practical things because as a lawyer,

you know, like it doesn't matter what I. know, it matters what I can prove. >> So I don't just have to think in these. broad ways that, you know, maybe a. researcher, a psychologist can. I have. to think, okay, what can demonstrate. something? What is evidence to support. what it is that I'm putting out there? I. think what you could walk out of this. conversation with is a feeling of I have. practical, specific things that I can. now bring to my relationship that aren't. complicated, that don't require me to. buy anything. They just require me to.

buy into a task or a routine. And if if. you can bring that to the table after. this conversation, I think you'll. actually see challenges in your. relationship potentially improve. or if. you're fortunate enough to be in a place. where your relationship is strong, you'll find yourself kind of maintaining. that cuz it's a whole lot easier to. maintain fitness than to let it fall. apart and then try to get back on track. Like those first miles are so hard. And. that's really what the goal is is to to.

help people by learning from the. mistakes I've now seen thousands of. people make just keep their relationship. in a good place. >> I am so excited you're here cuz I don't. want to make those mistakes. And what's. interesting about that example of. fitness is you said it can be easier to. maintain it. I think it's almost equally. easy to let it fall off as it is to. maintain it. >> It's really whether or not you. understand those little levers. >> Yeah. when you start to fall off.

Because just like fitness, there are. probably areas in your relationship. right now where you are falling off and. you don't even realize this is a major. mistake that will land you in front of. somebody like you, James. >> Yeah. And and and falling feels like. flying for a little while. >> What do you mean? >> Like it feels good, you know, like when. things are sort of coasting and you kind. of go because there's just so much. coming at us in the world. And so to go, all right, I got my person. I got that. locked down. I can worry about all this.

other stuff, the kids, work, you know, what's going on in the world, everything. else, cuz I have this. I'm good. I'm. good. Well, we we have each other. We're. wearing a ring. We're doing the whole. thing. Like, we're we're in. We don't. have to worry about that anymore. And. meanwhile, like, no, that's that's that. you got to water that plant. Like, that's a that's a relationship that when. you were looking for it, it was so. important. And when you found it, you. were so happy that you found it. You. know, we make the mistake of thinking. love is like permanently gifted to us. It's loan. Like every marriage ends. It.

ends in death or divorce, but it ends. And and it's one of those weird things. like to say to someone, "I hope it ends. in death for you." Like, but but it's. the truth. Like, I hope your marriage. ends in death because the other way that. it's going to end is divorce. And the. majority of marriages end in divorce. Over 50% end in divorce. So, and that's. just the ones that catastrophically. failed. Like think about how many. people, you know, succeeded in marriage, but you know, they meaning they didn't. divorce, but they're unhappy. They never.

really become the most authentic version. of themselves. They stay together for. the kids or cuz they don't want to give. away half their things. What is that, another 10%, 20%. Now you have something. that fails 70% of the time. And yet we. are like, "Let's do it. We got to sign. people up for this. It's a great thing.". It's a like even if someone says, "I'm. getting married." If you were to say, "Really?" Why? It would be rude. That's. a rude question to ask. But meanwhile, you're doing something that fails. roughly 50 to 70% of the time. It's not. unreasonable to say why. And and I think.

the big issue is, and that's why I I say. like falling feels like flying for a. little while until you hit the ground. because sometimes by the time you. realize, oh, this marriage is not a good place. anymore, it's real far gone and it's. real hard to come back, you And that's. why when people say like, "Oh, what you. know, what's the number one cause of. divorce?" It's like disconnection is the. number one cause of divorce. But there's. a whole bunch of other symptoms that. come from disconnection that are easy to.

point to and say, "Well, that was the. cause." But it wasn't the cause. The. cause was the disconnection. No single. raindrop was responsible for the flood. But the flood's nothing but little. raindrops. >> Do you believe in marriage? >> I do. Yeah, I do. I mean, I think. I think that's an individual question. I. like to look at relationships, romantic. relationships, as chapters in a long. book. >> And I think like any chapter in a long. book, you know, there's some chapters. that are tragic and some chapters that. are sad and some chapters that are just.

filled with nothing but joy. You know, I. think Orson Wells said that that um. whether a story is a comedy or a tragedy. depends on when you end it, you know. And I think a lot of, you know, relationship stories that we sell to. people, romcoms and things like that, they're kind of the relationship. equivalent of pornography. Like they're. just a stylized version of what actual. relationships look like, you know, without any of the complexity, like with. just the good part. And I think I think.

marriage I don't think I can learn. everything I need to know about myself. from myself. I think I need someone. who'll see my blind spots. And I think I. need that person to be someone I can be. really fearless around. And I think like. at its core, marriage should boil down to to four. words that I think. I think are potentially the most. beautiful words you could say to someone. and mean or have someone say to you and. know they're true. And that is you're my.

favorite person. M. >> like what could be more beautiful than. being told and knowing like that when. this person says it they mean it. You're. my favorite person and to say to someone. back, "Yeah, you're my favorite person.". Like what would be better in the world. than having that, you know? And and so I. like to think about kind of the end of. things and then reverse engineer. And to. me, like at the end of your life, if you.

could look at another person and say, "You helped me become the most authentic. version of myself, and you're still my. favorite person. That's the greatest wedding toast you. could ever have." Like, that's the. greatest blessing you could have in your. life. And I think it'd be the greatest. asset you could have in your life. But. having represented cops, teachers, firefighters, CEOs, elite athletes, celebrities, we are all equally terrible.

at this. [laughter]. >> What do you wish every couple understood. before. they got married? >> So, two things and they're. contradictory. So, I say that out front. because as as soon as I say it, I I know. it's going to sound like a. contradiction, but I think you'll as a. long long married person, I think you'll. agree. I think they make two contradictory. mistakes. One is thinking that marrying. this person will change them. [laughter]. So, you know, he leaves his socks. everywhere, but if we get married, he'll.

stop doing that. Or he drinks too much, but if we get married to something, you. know, she's not very fiscally. responsible, but if we get married, she'll, you know, shape up and get that. together. So, thinking that if you marry. somebody, they're going to become a. better version of themselves and they'll. definitely change. This is not a great. idea. like this is not a you're not. buying a depressed company that this. you're hoping the stock will go up. Okay. But the contradictory thing is. also thinking this person will never. change that if we get married that it'll. prevent them from changing. >> Oh, I see exactly why these are the same.

thing, >> right? Because it's the feeling of hey, you know, like this is so good. Like the. sex is so good and our companionship is. so good and our conversation is so good. and our whole vibe together is so good. Like if we get married, we're going to. it's like building a wall around this. thing and it's going to keep it amazing, you know, and that's this is what we. have to do. We'll shore up all the. defenses against the world and we'll. nothing will change. We'll just be happy. and having sex and having a great just. like we are right now forever. And like that's just ridiculous. Like.

there's nothing there's no way to maybe. when people died in their 30s and 40s. that was possible because you had a. short window of time. But the truth is. like to say, "Hey, I'm going to be with. somebody 30, 40, 50 years in this very. intense intimate relationship and you. know it'll never change." Like that's. insane. We're going to our bodies. change. Our goals change that the. pressures we're the society around us is. constantly changing. Technology is. changing. So, how would you think that a. contract we sign with the government.

about our relationship is going to. prevent it from eroding or having any of. the like natural things that happen to. our bodies, to our lives, to every other. relationship we have? >> So, is there a better question to ask. yourself knowing how much change is. going to hit you? You know what I'm. saying? So, if you could grab every. young couple by the shoulders who's in. that moment where they're like, I think. this is my person. You're my favorite. person now.

>> and I'm feeling the pressure or I really. have always wanted to get married or all. my friends are getting married or I'm. the only single one or I've been. divorced for too long and I want to try. this. Like, is there a question that you. wish. couples or people personally would just. stop and ask themselves? The true. question. I think everything is what. little things can we do to stay. connected. And I don't think it's that. hard. Like I think you can dedicate 10.

minutes a week to the upkeep of a. relationship and stay out of my office a. lot of the time. Like I genuinely. believe that if you spent 10 minutes a. week just saying to your partner, "What. did I do this week? Tell me three things. I did this week that made you feel. loved.". I think you'd be surprised at the. answer. Like I think you you think you. know the answer, but you'd be surprised. Like I think if your husband if if you. if he said to you, "What are three. things I did this week that made you.

feel loved, the practical actual. answers, you might not be able to. predict those. Like he might not have. been able to guess in advance what they. are because little things make us feel. loved. And by the way, if you if you. have courage and you go into this. transaction saying, "Hey, we're going to. not hear this defensively, >> like we're going to speak honestly and. we're going to hear in a non-defensive. way.". >> Then you can ask another question, which. is, "Where did I miss the mark this. week? What are three things I could have.

done better this week? What were three. things I did this week that made you. feel less than loved or less than seen?". You can have fun with it and say, "What. are three things I did this week that. made you want to have sex with me?" Like. what were three things this week that I. did that turned you on? By the way, the. answers bonkers. Absolutely bonkers. Like as a heterosexual man, when I've. asked that question, it's the weirdest. things. It's like, oh, you were the dogs. came in from outside and you were like, you know, kind of towling them off and. the way they were looking at you and. like that made you want to have sex with.

me. Like here I am. >> I'm trying to get eight pack abs and and. meanwhile this is what makes you like. like feel. But it really like the things. that make can I honestly when you said. what makes you feel I was thinking to. myself if Chris asked me that. >> while I was here working he was with his. friends. >> skiing. >> and he took our two dogs and so he spent. the day you know hiking up the mountain. and skiing down the dogs were chasing. him he sent me photos.

>> right. >> and I felt so loved that he remembered. me in the middle of that and sent me. that in the middle of the day. >> and see and You identify what that. really was, which it wasn't just the. thing, it's what's underneath it. >> Yes. >> Like that he thought, "Oh, this is so. good. I want to share this with her.". Yes. >> Like, and that's what I mean about. you're my favorite person. Like, all. that is. >> is just staying a little bit connected. and conscious. Like, what did that cost? Nothing.

>> Cost nothing. And we get so fixated on. these grand gestures like, you know, oh, love is about like these grand I'm going. to plan a birthday party. I'm going to. make it huge. And listen, there's value. in grand gestures, but like daytoday. things like that, that's the thing. And. it, by the way, it works in both. directions. is like, I guarantee there's. some little thing you do that you may. not even think is that big of a deal, but that's the thing that makes him feel. deeply connected, valued, seen,

understood, safe, like emotionally and all like even. just the fact that he's, you know, you. know, he loves the dogs as much as you. because the shared connection of things. you love like whether that's your. children, whether it's companion. animals, whether it's an activity, Whether it's a friend group, there's. something about knowing like, oh, this. person feels this as deeply as I do. >> This person feels this depth of love and. connection for I mean, animals for me is. a big thing. I'm a dog person, but like. there's something so beautiful about.

sharing that with someone and knowing, oh, it's okay. away cuz this person. loves the dogs as much as I do and. panders to them as much as I do and will. send me photos and will, you know, do. all the little things that I do when I'm. out so that that, you know, I know that. the dogs feel safe and loved to me like. that that is so easy to just articulate. to each other and remind each other like. I don't think it takes the magic away to. know that and to hear that. Like I think. if Chris heard you say, "Do you know how.

special that made me feel? Do you know. how beautiful that was? Like do you know. how much more that makes me love you and. feel seen by you when you did that?". You'd be like, "I was just taking a. picture of the dogs." Like, but but. meanwhile, like it's not the thing. It's. it's what's underneath. It's what it's. emblematic of. And I I feel like so many. of us have so many of those things. >> Yeah. But we don't say it. >> And and they're good and bad. Like like. if you're the kind of person like me, I. like all the dishes out of the sink by.

the end of the day. Like I'm very and I. like doing dishes cuz unlike the. practice of law, there's like a middle. and end and you're done. And it's like, oh, everything's clean. Whereas with. cases, it's like I could work 24 hours a. day and there'd still be more to do. >> It's not about like leaving the sink. full of dirty dishes. It's about what do. those symbolize? that symbolizes, you. know, that I like things a certain way. and it's not that important to you. You. assume I'm going to take care of this. thing and that, you know, you don't have. to like it's it's always the thing under.

the thing. And if if early on in a. relationship when there's still all this. abundance of goodwill and connection and. optimism, if that's when you say, "Hey, let's. figure out how to keep this here with. these little tiny practical discussions, communications." Again, whether it's an. email we send each other once a week. with that list or whether it's we go for. a walk and it's like our walk and talk. once a week and we do this. I think. those kinds of practical little things.

are the way you stay connected. Period. >> Well, just to make sure as you were. listening or you were watching here on. YouTube that you got just those two. simple questions. The first one was what. are three ways that I made you feel. loved? >> Made you feel loved. >> Yes. And the second one was, "What are. three ways where I missed the mark?". >> Yeah. >> And and you might want to throw in, you. know, here are three ways you made me. feel loved this week. like just to. because again I'm a I'm a believer in. that positive reinforcement. >> Absolutely. Well, you don't beat your.

dog into becoming well behaved. Yeah. >> You love them into it. You reward good. behavior. This is like basic. >> This is the basic stuff, but we don't do. it. We start with this is what you did. wrong. You know what I mean? Like you're. like ah. >> right. And the entry point in the. conversation is so important because. there's so many couples for example that. you know there's there's something I. hear all the time particularly from men. is like oh we don't have as much sex as. we used to. We used to have so much. Okay. So if you walk into your wife and. say, you know, we're just not having sex. as much as we used to. You know the. response. Well, you're not here. And.

when you're here, you're in a terrible. mood. Well, I'm in a terrible mood. because work is so now where are we. going? We're going nowhere good. Like no. one's walking out of that conversation. going, let's have more sex. Everyone's. walking into that conversation going, "Yeah, this is exactly why we're not. having more sex." Whereas if you entered. that conversation with God, you know, I. was driving down the street the other. day and I remember remember when we were. first dating and we went away to that. like cheap B&B, you know, that we didn't. like have the money to afford and we. were supposed to go to and we ended up. staying in bed the whole day like. remember God that I was just thinking. about that day like that was so you know.

like when we were so connected. physically. I just love that about Okay, now. >> now you're like let's book the hotel. >> Let's book right like cuz what am I. doing? I'm talking about something we're. do we did at some this was us and it's a. version of us. Let's visit it for a. second. Wasn't it great? >> Well, here's what I love. Here's what I. love about that. You can use nostalgia. and going back to a better time. >> Sure. as a reference point to remind. both of you. >> Yeah. >> Of what you miss.

>> and something that's underneath all. these little things that have led to all. this discontent and disconnection and. what. >> therapist Terry Real calls normal. marital rage and uh and and hostility. I. think he what's he call it? Normal. marital hostility. >> Yeah. It's called normal marital. resentment. >> Yeah. that is just about the. disconnection because I think the. resentment comes from knowing deep down. you started in a different place. And. for I think for a lot of people,

>> you just don't know how to get back. >> and you think since it feels so off. >> Yeah. >> What's right in front of your nose is. what you're pointing out. >> Yeah. Well, we've been told it's. supposed to be easy, too. I think that. we're constantly barged in media with. examples of just effortless love. And I. think that there is an aspect of love. that's utterly effortless. Like love is. an emotion, but love's a verb, >> you know. What does that mean? >> Love's a verb. I mean, love is an. emotion. It's a feeling, but it's a. verb. Like to love someone is to act.

with love for them. Like like it's it's. a verb. It's a thing you do. So it's not. just something you feel. It's something. you act upon and and to act with love. towards someone. And so the acting with. love towards someone, loving someone, actively the act of loving them requires. a some understanding of them and their. blind spots. Like what would be wrong. with sitting down with your partner at. the start of a relationship and saying, "Look, we're going to get in a fight some.

point. It's probably going to be my. fault. I'm going to say something. stupid. I say dumb things all the time. So we're definitely going to have an. argument at some point. When we do, what. kind of person are you? Do you like need. a minute? Should I let it kind of like. air out because if I if I try to force. the conversation, we're going to have a. big argument. Or are you the like we. cannot go to bed angry. We got to work. this out. We have to talk about this. tonight. Because the time to learn that. is not when you're in a fight. Like the. time to learn that is when there's this.

abundance of connection and optimism. between the two of you. And then when. that moment comes to have the presence. of mind, when you have a conflict to go, okay, we knew this was going to happen. and this is how we talked about we're. going to try to navigate this together. Again, like everything I'm proposing. anybody do in their relationship is free. and it usually doesn't take more than a. few minutes. And by the way, what you. said about nostalgia, I think nostalgia. is a powerful tool, but it's not just. nostalgia, it's also framing because.

there are ways to effectively manipulate. the emotional state of your spouse for. their benefit, right? >> I mean, think of as a lawyer, my job is. to manipulate people's emotional state. That's my job. Like, I want the judge to. like my client. I want my client to feel. safe. I want the other side to feel. scared. I want the court reporter to. like me. I want the the court officer to. like me because they're going to go back. in chambers with the judge and I want. them to go Sexon's a really good lawyer. I don't want them to go that Sexton's so. arrogant. So, I got to be really I want. everyone not everybody can help me, but. damn near everybody can hurt me. So, I'm.

going to do my best in that courtroom to. manipulate everyone's emotional state. and have no one think I'm doing it. >> Well, here's the other thing, though. When you're doing it, >> Yeah. >> you're very authentically intentional. >> 100%. >> Because that's what you actually want. >> 100%. And by the way, >> so you know, because people hear the. word manipulate, but what you're. actually being is you're being super. strategic because you do want the court. officer to think you're an excellent. lawyer. >> Listen, I manipulate the screw cuz I. want the thing to be screwed into the. wall. Like manipulation is not in and of.

itself anything nefarious. >> Yes. >> Like what when you know an example I. I've given before is um so I you know. I'm a trial lawyer so I try to be like. clean shaven. I don't get to have that. like oops I didn't know I was sexy. stubble that's so popular. So, I have to. like be clean shaving. But on the. weekends, I like to not shave. Like, it. is a couple days off from it. I don't. have to be in court. So, it's great. I. don't wear a tie and I don't shave on. the weekends. >> By like the second day, by Sunday, I. have like scruff and it's kind of. coarse. Y. >> and I was dating a woman who had very.

sensitive skin. >> And anytime I would like go to kiss her, she would go like, "Oh god, like your. beard's so scratchy." And immediately in. me I went like in my head like you know. like all right so now I got to shave on. the weekends too when I see you. That. relationship didn't work out. Not. surprisingly not for that reason but it. didn't work out. My next relationship. she had the exact same issue. She she. had sensitive skin but her response her. way of handling it was I would shave and. she would invariably come up and god I.

love it when you're clean shaven. Like. it's like you remind me of like John. Ham, like with Don Draper and Mad Men, you know, dude, I would shave three. times a day. [laughter] I would I would. constantly I would shave and I'd be. like, "Oh, I just shaved today." And. she'd be like, "Oh my god, I love it.". Okay, what did she do? What did she do. but manipulate me in a positive way? Like all she was doing was saying. instead of framing it as something I'm. doing wrong, she framed it as here's. this opposite thing you do that oh, I. love it and now I I want to please my.

partner. I want my partner to feel good. about me and think I'm sexy and think. I'm So, of course, I'm going to want to. move towards that. >> and not pull away from it. So, a lot of. it is about framing. Nostalgia is a very. powerful tool, but it's really like how. do we frame what it is we're trying to. accomplish here. >> and really focusing often on the things. that are going well and that you like. and tripling down. >> on what they're doing well. Because I. mean, let's be honest, the world is like.

constantly criticizing us. And even. constructive criticism is criticism. >> Like, and it doesn't feel great. >> to have this person who's supposed to be. your favorite person and you're their. favorite person and they're criticizing. you. Like, everything is criticizing. you. Like, what's right in this. connection very often is the cure for. what's feeling wrong in it. And. criticism is rarely the path there. If. you really think about kind of all those.

little mistakes, kind of like a mechanic. that can tell you what's going to go. wrong with the car, what do you feel are. the list of mistakes that people make in. long-term relationships. >> that lead to divorce or lead to all the. problems that we may not realize. And I. realize that you've already said that. underneath it all is disconnection, but. what are those mistakes that we need to. really know about? >> Yeah. I mean, I think if you start with.

where are we when we meet and fall in. love, we fall in love super fast. I. mean, we we really connect with the. person so instantaneously. And then we we fall apart the same way. we go bankrupt, which is very slowly and. then all at once, >> you know, it's like this little tiny. little bit little bit off the cliff. And. so I think it's the same thing with. falling out of love. And so the big. relationship killers are infidelity, financial impropriy, you know, outright.

deception, like and that's huge. Like I. I would say a good 85% of the divorces. that I'm involved in, infidelity has. some role in it. >> Why do you think that is? >> Because I think we have a human the same. reason why so many people want to get. married. We have a human desire to. connect to another person. I think we're. social creatures. This is something in. us like we want to connect with another. person. We we need desperately to to be. interested and interesting and we want. to feel loved. We want physical. connection with another person. We want.

the attention that comes with physical. connection, you know, we want the I I. think we whether it's marriage and the. early days of marriage or dating or the. early days of infidelity, it's not just the other person that we. kind of fall for. It's also who we feel. like when we're with them. You know, like you stand a little taller when. someone sees you as so beautiful or so. handsome. like you you feel like a.

version of yourself. Like everyone I. talk to in my office who's had affairs. very often they'll say like look I I. love my spouse. I never stopped loving. my spouse but like my spouse doesn't. find me beautiful or handsome anymore. Like nobody, you know, like and and I've. stop and then I met this person and like. I'm fascinating to them. I they tell me. how beautiful I am or how handsome I am. And I actually feel that like I feel. that way because it's so lovely to be.

told, you know, you're so wonderful. I'm. enjoying being with even just the two of. us right now talking to each other. There's something so beautiful about. like, oh, what you're saying is so. interesting. I'm enjoying talking to. you. Like that's such a lovely exchange. So it's a natural human. Like if you. think about like the seven deadly sins, you know, >> all they really are is like seven very. normal human things taken to the wrong. level. Like we want to eat, okay, gluttony, we we we need intimate. connection with another person. Lust,

you know, we get angry when someone. hurts us, wrath, like if you look at. those things, all it is is a normal. human thing weaponized. So I I think. that's where we, you know, we lose the. plot in that we we just forget like the. the most common thing again is just that. disconnection. And that disconnection. can be in the form of I'm disconnected. from the me you made me feel like. >> Yes. >> Which is a me problem by the way. Typically, by the way, I'm sure you see. this is that when you have a.

relationship where there's been. infidelity. >> and the person who's cheating. >> is being is feeling seen and feeling. like they can stand taller and feeling. like they're interesting. The person. who's being cheated on is like, "Well, I. wanted that too in our relationship, you. asshole." Like, what? Like, I was. missing that, too. And so you can see. >> that the disconnection and the lack of. feeling cared about. >> is probably it's happening for both of.

them. >> It's happening for both of them. And. there were all of these moments where. you had like a last clear chance to. steer out of that. But there's like an. opportunity for people if they'd. communicated early on like, "Hey, I'm. not feeling like I feel like my eye is. wandering. I don't want my eye to. wander. Like I want to be good at this. job, right? Like when you marry someone, you're signing on for a job. Like it's. wonderful. It's bliss, all those things, but it's also a job. It's got a job. description, you know? Like I'm And by.

the way, it's an insane job description. Like you're going to be my best friend, best co-parent, best roommate, best. travel partner, be like, wow, really? Like that's a big list. You found one. person that can do all of that. We've. convinced people that no, no, this is. your person and they should be the best. at everything. And if they're not, by. the way, maybe your soulmate's out there. and you missed the boat and you got to. go find that person because life is. supposed to be like a Hallmark movie. You know, >> I I feel like anybody that's in a. relationship right now is leaning in cuz. it's easy to feel like roommates. It's.

easy to fall into a lull. >> There's other people all around you. You. actually have a chapter in your book, How to Stay in Love, Chapter 19. If we. were designing an infidelity generating. machine, it would be Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, social media. This. is page 114. If you're vaguely unhappy. with your relationship or marriage, and. especially if you're more than vaguely.

unhappy with it, stay away from social. media. The vast majority of what you'll. find there is unhappiness. Masked is happiness. It will with. your head, your heart, and your. relationship. And you talk all about how social media. is a single greatest breeding ground. ever for infidelity. Nothing that has. come before, not swingers, clubs, key. parties, chat rooms, workplace. temptation, Ashley Madison, Tinder, Grinder. No, no, no, no. Not even porn.

comes within a thousand miles. >> Yeah, I stand by that. >> Why? because it's just a perfect storm. of. of attacks on the institution of a. monogous marriage. Like it it. >> a you have a innocuous reason you should. be using this technology. cover. you're like all the time. >> Oh, I have to be on it for work or I. wanted to see what this person's up to. or oh the Facebook group of blah blah.

blah is, you know, for our kids thing or. like there's a million reasons you'd be. on your phone that are totally. innocuous, >> right? Unlike a strip club. >> Unlike a strip club or if for example I. think that one of the women at my one of. the moms at my son's soccer practice is. attractive. If the only entry point I. have for talking to her would be walking. up to her at practice, it's not as. threatening because you can't really do. that without it being but now well we. follow each other on social media.

because we both are part of that group. that is a group chat that you know and. now I also see her vacation pictures and. now I I might innocuously say to her, "Oh, I saw you guys went to Tulum. Where. did you stay? We're thinking about going. and now I'm talking to you and I'm. talking to you by the way privately like. I'm in your DMs. We're talking. So it's. not only like not it's not like. approaching you at the soccer game. It's. like approaching you alone in a. restaurant like and we're just the two. of us talking and no one can see what. we're saying. You're just creating this.

perfect storm for people. And by the. way, the performative self like all. anyone posts is the best pictures of. themselves. And when and when are you on. your phone looking at social media? Is. it when you're having like the greatest. day or the greatest moment? No. You're. on the subway. You're on the toilet. You're bored, right? You're just bored. You're living your gag reel and you're. looking at everyone's greatest hits and. and you're supposed to walk out of that. transaction feeling deeper connected. into your real life relationship. No, it's a total distraction, but it's a. distraction that is going to create all.

kinds of enticements and connections. that really are not going to be good for. your marriage. and you have total. plausible deniability if your spouse has. any question about why are you on your. phone. There's a million reasons we'd. all be on our phone. So yeah, it's a. perfect storm. Like as divorce lawyers, we owe the people who made these. platforms a debt of tremendous gratitude. because they have given us job security. >> So if you're in a committed partnership, >> yeah, >> what is the kind of ground rules around. social media for yourself?

>> Yeah. >> And for your partner? I I like how you. framed that question because I think a. lot of this has to do with what are you. doing? Yes. >> Like because I think most people who are. married would like to have a happy. marriage. >> So just like most people would like to. be in good shape, the question is not. what do you want, it's what are you. willing to trade for it? Like what are. you willing to give up in exchange for. that thing? So I think the first. question we have to ask ourselves is am. I using this technology in a way that if.

my spouse was standing here I would use. it differently like would I be following. these people if my spouse was watching. who I follow? I'm not suggesting we have. to monitor each other's social media. That's a I think a very personal. decision couples have to make. But I. think the best entry point is yourself, right? Because I have much more control. over myself than anything else. So I. think starting with would I be having. this communication with this person in. this specific way if my spouse was part.

of the conversation and sometimes it's. very obvious that the answer is no. Like. I I genuinely think the cure for the. entry points of infidelity is monitoring. your own behavior. Like if my spouse was. standing next to me, would I be talking. to this person this way? Would I be. looking at them this way? Would my body. language be what it is if my spouse was. standing here? And if the answer is no, okay, then just notice that. Notice. that. I'm not saying you have to do it. differently, but notice that because you.

realize, hey, this is a problem. Like I. I know I keep bringing things back to. like food and fitness, but you know, like I can't I can control my food. environment better than my brain. Like. if there's potato chips around, I'm. eating them. So I know, okay, I can't. have that in the house. or if I have it. in the house, it's with the. understanding that, oh yeah, I'm going. to annihilate those potato chips at some. point in one sitting, you know, and. that's okay. Like, listen, life is to be. enjoyed. But if you because discipline. is trading what you want now for what. you want most. And so, what do I want.

most? I want a long-term satisfying. relationship. I want to be happy in this. relationship. I want my partner to be. happy in this relationship. I I want. both of us to feel fulfilled. I want. both of us to feel loved. Like that's. what I. >> Let's say that you're at that point in. your relationship where as the person. who's here with us right now is. listening and having a panic attack. >> because you realize you're in that phase. of the relationship that every long-term.

relationship goes through. >> Yeah. >> You've had the fairy tale. >> Yeah. >> Now you're in maintenance. Yeah. >> Now you're noticing the resentment is. hitting. Yeah, >> you're disconnected. You're not having. sex. You're annoyed at your favorite. person all the time. You're wondering if. there's somebody better. >> You wish. >> it did it wasn't this way, but it's. starting to feel like, will we ever get. back? >> What are some of the things. >> Yeah. >> that you should do. >> immediately?

>> Yeah. >> I mean, I think in in in 25 years of. practicing matrimonial law, what I'd say. to you is you're where most people are. who are married. Like that's where you. are. You're where most people are. And. you probably got there by this. succession of small choices that created. this what I would call like a downward. spiral. This spiral where you know, well, why should I do that? You don't do. that. Well, why should I do that? She. doesn't do that. Well, why should And. the good news is wherever you are,

whether that started just recently or. whether you are down in the valley, right? like it has just been I don't. remember what it was like and what it. felt like when we were in that great. place. You can reverse that spiral. It works. the same. It works the same in the. opposite direction. How is is the same. way that it went wrong small actions. like start small start with leave a. note. Leave a note. You're leaving in.

the morning for work. Leave a note. It. was really fun hanging out with you last. night. I married the prettiest girl in. the world. or you know, um, hey, thanks. for, you know, uh, thanks for taking. care of that, you know, thing for me. yesterday and calling the cable company. It really means a lot when my big strong. man does things like that. Whatever. Like some little courtesy [snorts]. or kindness costs nothing. Takes 5. seconds to do. >> You know, you also did cuz you're really. good at manipulating. >> Yeah. >> And being strategic. You reminded me in.

that note. >> Yeah. >> of how I felt. >> Yeah. >> when we first met. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> prettiest girl in the world, strongest. guy, best person on the planet. >> And why not? Why not? Like that's so. easy throughout the day. Like I I I tell. a lot of my male friends, >> if you text your wife in the middle of. the day with a song that was like a song. important to you and you send a link to. that song and you go, I heard this song. in the coffee shop today and I thought. of you. Like that that's an incredible. feeling. Like it's an intoxicating.

wonderful feeling. like and and it. doesn't take much to just bring someone. back to that place. And by the way, the. person's initial reaction might be what. what inspired that like where because if. you're down far enough in the valley, you kind of go like but it's not hard to. just say, you know what, >> I just I feel like I have to do a better. job of like telling you these things. I. think of it a lot, but I sometimes don't. say it out loud. >> Like who would not want to hear that? Like how much would it take and how much.

would it cost? Nothing. would cost. nothing to write your spouse. an email. Here's 10 things I love about. you. 10 things. And by the way, you're. it's not just for them. Like they'll. love reading that, but also like it's. for you. Like remind yourself why did. you choose this person? Like there's. still so much beauty in this person. There's still so much beauty in you. Like why wouldn't you take a moment and. just enjoy the warmth of that? Like it's. right there. It's like no one's going to.

advertise this to you cuz it's free. You. don't need to buy a book to learn it. You don't need to take a course. There's. nothing I can sell you here. Like this. is just you have it. It's right there. It's right in front of you. You have to. actively steer away from it at some. point. And again, and it's never too. late to change that. >> I'm thinking about I'm thinking about. the person who hears that. >> Yeah. the writing the email of 10 things and I.

think we can get so sequestered in our. corners. >> Yeah. >> That you your immediate reaction is. either I can't think of 10 or why aren't. they writing it to me? >> Yeah. >> Or what if they don't respond or. >> So those are three separate great. questions. So and I think I would answer. them separately. So the first one is. what if I can't think of 10 things I. love about this person then maybe you. should consider getting divorced. What. >> I mean, if you if you're telling me. you're married to a person and you can't.

think of 10 things you love about them, there are 8 billion people in the world. Maybe you're married to the wrong one. Like sometimes happily ever after means. happily ever after separately. Like I'm. divorced. My ex-wife is one of my. favorite people. She's amazing. I love. her very much. There are a lot of people. I love that I wouldn't want to be. married to. Actually, all of them. All. of them. Right? Because it's a very. specific kind of relationship. If you're. telling me I can't think of 10 things.

this person I chose out of eight billion. other options to be my most intimate. partner in life, I can't think of 10. things I love about that person. I maybe. you should consider a divorce because. that's an insane reality. And by the. way, okay, maybe you've grown so far. apart. My ex-wife has been remarried for. 15 years to an amazing guy who's. absolutely nothing like me. personalitywise and perfect for her. And. I have to tell you, I love her. I love. him. We're like a weird family. But the. truth is, like, God bless. Like, God.

bless. She found the lid for her pot. Amazing. Amazing. I'm so glad. I have to. tell you, I can tell you 10 things I. love about my ex-wife. She can tell you. 10 things she loves about me. Like, I. can tell you 10 things I love about. almost anyone in my life. So, if you're. in a place where you're looking at your. spouse and going, I can't even think of. 10 things. Then, I think go to therapy. and really try to answer that question. and then try to answer the question, why. would I be married to a person I can't. think of 10 things I love about them? So. that's question number one. Yes. Question number two is what if they.

don't do it back for me? What if it has. Okay, that's where it's scary. >> But what's scarier than that is, well, we just won't even try. >> Like to I I understand. so well as a human being how vulnerable. it feels to express need. And it's hard. for me. I I don't know if it is for you, but it's hard for me being that kind of. person to say, "I really need help. I. can't do this myself.". >> Yeah. >> And And it's humbling. It's getting. easier as I age. It's one of the things.

I actually like best about aging is that. it's okay for me to say like, "Oh, I. need some help with this." Or, "Oh, I'm. not so good at that. Are you good at. that? Can you help me with that?" Like, and maybe there's things I'll be able to. help you with. Which, by the way, at its. best is what marriage is. >> So true. you know, it's about like, hey, how can we how can we become like. complimentary pieces to each other and. and to to to create this beautiful hole. together. So, I think that's an amazing. opportunity is to is to really say to. yourself like, "Hey, I'm going to try. I'm going to try." And it's brave to. try. And it's scary, but like if you're.

not scared, it's not brave. >> Like, it's only brave if you're scared. and you do it anyway. So I think that. >> most of us if love is on the line, if. our marriage is on the line, like we can. be brave. Like you believed in Santa. Claus for seven years, you can believe. in yourself for 15 minutes, you know, like just just just really like, you. know, 5 4 3 2 1 like go, you know, like. just do the thing, you know? So I think. try and at least that way you'll know. where you stand because if you've now.

made a concerted effort where I you've. tried a few times to really reach out to. this person in a consistent way and. create some connection between and it's. been rebuffed every time. Then I think. you're going to have a much clearer. understanding of where you're really at. in that relationship and that might. guide you in a direction like my office. I believe some marriages need to end. I. I genuinely do. I've seen some people. very successfully divorce, many of which. then go on to find love that is more. deep and connected for them and real.

joy. They they're better people and. they're better parents after their. divorce. And I I think we do the world a. disservice to view all divorces as. failures. I I don't believe it's a. failure. I don't believe my divorce was. a failure. It produced two amazing. children that are now amazing adults. I. became a better man by virtue of my. connection to her. I'd like to think she. would say the same about herself. She. went on to find tremendous love in her. life. I have too. There's tremendous. value in connecting well, disconnecting.

bravely and maturely if you can do it. >> What did you learn about yourself and. about relationships by going through. your own divorce? >> My divorce was, you know, very boring. because we're both very reasonable. people who concede the possibility of. our own error. And we fell in love as. like teenagers basically. We met in. college and we got married at 22 and had. a kid at 24. So, we were babies. Um, what I learned is that, you know, that. there are a lot of people in the world. that I love that I wouldn't be.

appropriately married to. I also learned. that the job description of a husband. and of an ex-husband are two different. things. I'm a really good ex-husband. I'm a really good father. I'm not a. great husband. Like, I don't have the. patience. I don't have some of the. skills that I think are really good in a. husband. Like I think a husband is very. comfortable sort of like accommodating. their will to that of the other and. they're patient in some important ways. And like as an ex-husband and a.

co-parent, I was great at it. Like I was. consistent, reliable, dependable, good. communicator. I'm a good dad. Like I put. my kids first. I always like, you know, still even as adults, I I love them and. I make time for them and they're always, you know, my priority. Um, and I always, you know, as an ex-husband, like had a. tremendous love and respect for my. co-parent. I always, every Mother's Day. would make sure my kids, you know, had. gifts for her. Every birthday, every. Christmas, I'd make sure they had things. for their mom. Then when she got. remarried, I sat down with her new. husband at the time and said, like,

okay, like I'm going to like, do you. want to get her birthday gift for the. boys now? Like, cuz I don't want them. empty-handed. Like, they're going to. feel self-conscious, but I also don't. want to overstep. like I'm going to. still do Mother's Day cuz that's what. she is to me for my sons, but maybe. you'll get the boys Christmas gifts with. her. And like we had this discussion. He. was a divorced guy himself, so we were. like, it was this really lovely like, oh, how are we going to shapeshift this. dynamic? So, I learned a lot about how. you can disconnect in like a very. beautiful way and and have a.

non-traditional kind of family that, you. know, is joyful. I I learned a lot about. how divorces don't have to always be the. kinds of things that I was handling even. at that time. I was already a divorce. lawyer at that time. I I and I really. thought divorce was always this. knockdown dragout battle that you need. someone like me and I I you don't always. need like you can do it with a scalpel. You don't always need a chainsaw. Like. I'm kind of a chainsaw. And so it was.

really lovely for me to learn because. you know if if you think about divorce. the ones you hear about. like if I go to a cocktail party I don't. go to a lot of cocktail parties but if I. went to a cocktail party and somebody. said what do you do for a living I saw. I'm a divorce lawyer. >> and they go oh my god you must have. stories and I said oh my god if I got. one there was this couple and they got. married when they were quite young and. then you know the ven diagram of their. interests kind of didn't intersect as. much and they grew in different. directions and then they amicably. divided you know their property and they.

continued to co-parent their children. that they both loved a whole lot. You'd. be like, "That is the most boring story. ever." Like, I've talked more about my. divorce in this conversation than I. probably have in the last 5 years. because it's not that interesting. It's. two people. >> I actually think it's super interesting. because it shows that there is a. different possibility in terms of how. you can conduct yourself right. >> both during it, >> during the marriage, at the end of the. marriage, during the divorce. And it's. all about normalizing like so much of. what I think has gone right in our. culture in the last 10 years is.

normalizing certain things like. normalizing therapy, normalizing mental. health issues, norm we we need to. normalize prenups. We need to normalize. what a civil divorce can look like, what. a cooperative co-parenting relationship. can look like. It does not have to be. because the kind of people that talk. about their divorce constantly are. people who were terribly wounded by it. I understand it became a formative. trauma in their lives and it became.

something that everything comes back to. I get that. I've seen a lot of people. who've been victimized by that kind of a. divorce. But that has now become. culturally what we think divorce looks. like. And that is the unbelievable. minority of divorces. The majority. >> so the majority of divorces are the high. conflict. People are destroyed for years. after. What is the majority? >> The majority is two people that at some. point were deeply connected to each. other, lost the connection, and now have.

usually children in common or extended. family in common, and they need to end. the relationship, but they don't hate. each other. >> Or if they're angry at each other, their. love for their children is much greater. than their dislike of each other. Like I. always tell people, a divorce is like a. table. It's got four legs. There's you. and your lawyer and the other side and. their lawyer. All you need is one of. those legs to be off. Doesn't matter how. nice and straight the other legs are, that table's falling down. Like one. irrational person or one person with.

like bad faith intentions. is going to make this into something. much uglier than it needs to be. >> I want to finish up the topic of the. signs. >> Yeah. >> And really giving the person listening. the just resources or the awareness. Yeah. >> Based on all your experience, what are.

the signs. >> that you are headed for a breakup or for. divorce? The ones that you actually see. like cuz I bet you go to a party or you. can walk into a room and you can. literally be like in a year, >> five years. >> they're in trouble. What you have to do first is look at. your baseline. So like look at what it. was you did when you were still. connected to each other. >> Like how did you interact with each. other? How often did you have physical. intimacy? How often did you spend time.

together just the two of you? What did. you do separately? And what did you do. together? Because until you look at your. baseline, you won't know how far you've. drifted from your baseline. Relationships change, people change, their bodies change, everything changes. But the question is is when it did it. change by default or by design? Have you. ever thought or talked about as a couple. why it's changed and are we both okay. with that or is it something that one or. both of us feel like hey we might have. lost something in that process. So I. think again baseline is a really.

important thing to be thinking about. Then one of the first things I observe. when I'm seeing the cracks in a couple, like when I walk into a room or I'm. watching, you know, one of those. housewife shows and I'm like, "Oh, they're definitely getting divorced and. they're definitely getting divorced.". Like I often tell people, to me, the. shest indicator of a divorce is not. anything anyone says. It's a sound. And. it's this sound. It's. just that like [snorts]. when the other person's talking and. there's just this like like what? Yeah.

What? What? Yeah. Okay. Like, why are. you bothering me with what you're. saying? >> Or that like kind of eye rolling. Like, it's just those subtle courtesies and. disrespects. >> It's the tone. It's the body language. Like, that's a huge piece is. So, I. would when you're looking at signs, look. at how you physically relate to each. other. I mean, you've seen couples, I'm. sure, where it's like even when they. touch each other, it's like, you know,

when you're first together, like you. touch your skin and it's like an. electric bolt through you of like, oh my. god, this person touched me. This like, oh my god, our legs touched like it's. just that. I mean, and thank God that. passes or we just never get anything. done, you know? But it's supposed to. sort of pass and become like still. something comfortable and connected. >> because all that person maybe you don't. like holding hands. That's okay. But. maybe they're trying to connect with. you. >> Yeah. >> So do you want to connect with them? >> Like and if it's that I don't like. sweaty hands. Okay. So put your arm.

around me like you know lean in and do. something like like meet each other. halfway. There's a lot of these little. tiny physical and verbal disconnections. Like even just the act of when your. spouse is talking to you, if you are on. your goddamn phone, like that to me, like watching couples sitting there and. one of them is talking and the other one. is sort of going through the phone and. you see them doing that. What? Oh yeah. Yeah. Uhhuh. Uhhuh. Like all I'm saying. to you is you're not important. You're.

not important. You're not as important. as this. And then what do you meet that. with? Very often people meet it with. like they'll either keep going and. condone that behavior or they'll stop. and go, "Well, I'll let you finish. Go. ahead. No, no, finish what you're doing. on the phone." And now that feels. accusatory because that person's like, "Well, no, I was trying to look at this. thing." They weren't trying maybe to. insult you. The two things I say that. everybody accuses me of being unromantic. that I actually think are two very. romantic sentiments is one, marriage is. a job. It has a set of roles and. responsibilities. You signed up for it.

You didn't have to take it. there were. other positions available and you chose. this one and you can quit if you want. to, you know, and you can go get a. different one if you want to. So, it's a. lot like a job and it's a job that. theoretically you want to be good at. because you want happiness, right? In. this in this exchange, >> is there something that you recommend in. the middle of an argument to just. diffuse it or diffuse yourself? >> I think the worst time to learn how to. fight is when you're in a fight. I think. in advance there should be some, you. know, it's almost like what's a safe.

word? Like there should be a word that. we've agreed in advance is we're. ejecting from this conversation and. we'll continue it at another time. Like. we both know where the other one lives, you know, like we'll find each other. So. like if you have like, you know, a. phrase like how about them Mets, like. something that just has nothing to do. with any discussion you're having, that. should be the phrase that like I don't. think this is productive and I think. we're going down a road that's. dangerous. and you should agree on it in. advance and you should make a commitment. to each other that listen I'm not saying.

that that ejects us out of this. conversation for good because that would. be a great way to just you know it's. like a like you get a a hall pass in the. conversation we'll never bring it up. again right what we're saying is listen. this will be deferred for 24 hours or. this will be deferred for a maximum of x. number of hours or days or whatever it. might be because you both the corners. you back yourself into you got to figure. out ways to get out of I I mean, think. about the commitments you've made to. this person. I'm going to love you, you. and only you for eternity. And you can't.

make the commitment of, "Hey, listen. If. we're in an argument and one of us feels. like this isn't productive or we're. feeling really hurt, we're going to say. this phrase, and that phrase will mean. we have to call a timeout." And two, you know, you can't really love someone and more. importantly like you can't really feel. someone's love. >> until you show them a really honest and. vulnerable version of yourself. Like. I'm a great performer in a courtroom,

you know, and I can present however I. need to present. But if in my. relationship. I am playing the character of like the. best version of myself and I don't let. this person see any of my soft spots or. any of my vulnerabilities or any of the. I need to work on, any of the. things I get wrong, the things I'm. afraid of, >> I'll never feel their love. Like I'm. depriving myself because I'll always. have in my head, oh no, no, if if they. knew me, they wouldn't love me. They.

love me because they bought the. character I'm selling them. So, I'm. depriving myself by not showing this. person these weak, difficult, challenging parts of myself. But here's. the thing. If someone is brave enough to. show you those things. in a fight, if you weaponize those. things, >> that is a despicable and almost. irreparable thing to do to someone. Because when really, what is divorce at.

its worst, but intimacy weaponized? Because intimacy is not sex. Intimacy is. the ability to be completely yourself. with another person like your honest. authentic self with another person. And. so to take the vulnerability and the. soft spots that a person has shown you. in good faith so they could feel. connected to you and you guys could. trust each other and each feel like you. can show each other the soft spots to to. in a fight in a moment of anger to. weaponize that is a really really awful.

kind of betrayal. So, I I would always. tell people like have some ground rules, like no low blows. Like, listen, I like. I like the UFC. I like a good fight. I've trained Brazilian jiu-jitsu for 20. years. Like, most of my best friends. have broken my nose at some point. I'm. telling you, like, have a fair fight. Like, if you have to have a fight, have. a have an ability to call a timeout and. keep it a fair fight. >> Yeah. There's a couple of sentences you have. somewhere in the back of your head that.

you know if you said them out loud to. him, you would reduce him to a pile of. tears in the corner. >> Yes. >> And he knows those sentences too about. you. He has some sentences he could say. that are all of your scarest, most. vulnerable pieces of you. And I know. that because you love each other and. you've been together a really long time. And you can't love someone for that. duration, with that depth and with that. much affection without having been. vulnerable to that person. >> or shitty to them, >> right? But but the truth is is having.

knowledge of what that is, having that. ammunition. >> is an incredible responsibility and it's. something it's like having the nuclear. codes of the relationship and like keep. them locked. like don't use them because. just like nuclear weapons like you get. to use them once and then the whole. world blows up. So like don't do I've. seen people who in a moment of anger let. that fly and you can't take that back. You can't you can't bring that in you. know and so really give more thought in.

advance to when we disconnect. We do. We. disconnect. Like as a parent, you know, who do you love more than your kids? And. when they're in middle school, you're. telling me you didn't want to kill them? Like I tell my sons all the time, I'm. like, I I've never disliked anyone as. much as I disliked both of you in middle. school. And by the way, I know you. disliked yourself more than anything in. middle school. Like you'll never meet a. human being in their life who goes, "The. best years of my life were middle. school. It's always the happiest person. in middle school is miserable." But the. truth is like you you love your kids,

but you also are like, "Okay, I have to. have some ground rules." and how. moments of love it's easy. It's moments. of tension that you have to think about. in advance and figure out how to not. back yourself into corn. >> That's a great framework thinking about. kids or even work. Like there are those. days you want to just go on a tear and. if you did you'd get fired or you cancel. yourself. >> But isn't it funny how many things about. marriage like we put marriage in this.

weird category and it's just really. another relationship. Like, you know, I I I often use the. analogy of dogs because I love dogs, but. I have two senior citizen dogs. I have a. 15-year-old and a 16-year-old dog, and I. know I'm, you know, I'm I'm playing with. the house's money at this point. I'm on. borrowed time with these guys, and I've. had them since they were babies. >> Receipts are due. >> Yeah. And and I'm I'm enjoying every. minute I have, but I have to tell you, like, I've never once looked at my. 15year-old dog who's deaf and thought, "Dude, I got to get a puppy. Like these.

are this dog's so old and it like hardly. can hear and I got to carry it. downstairs now. Like puppies are so cute. and they're fun and they run around. We. play ball and they can jog with me. Like. this dog's so old. Dude, I love this dog. more than every day. Like this the scent. of the dog. It's like this is I now but. yet with love like our romantic partner, it's this constant feeling of like, oh. well, there's a younger model out there. and there's a more compelling model out. there. So it's like how you do anything. is how you do everything. Like if.

somebody said to me, I'll give you Well, you have dogs. You. have two dogs. Okay. So, two dogs. All. right. So, let's let's try this. >> All right. If I told you, I'll give you. $100 million. for your dogs, you would say, no. >> No. >> Okay. >> Well, I can pay my bills right now. That's like there's that baseline, right? So, if I said to you, God forbid, not going to happen, but you have 30. days left with one of your kids, no. matter what. Okay, you only have 30.

days. Would you take $100 million then. for those 30 days? You're going to lose. them in 30 days anyway. Would you give. me $100 million if I give you for that? >> No. >> Because why? Because the time would the. time would even be more precious knowing. that it was so short. Okay, that's love. That's love. That's that's as good of a. definition of love as I could ever come. up with. like that that there is. something beyond any other kind of value. that you attribute to the connection you. have to this no matter how finite it is. because a 100 years from now no one you.

love will be here and no one who loves. you will be here so this is finite we're. losing everything all the time and I say. that as a divorce lawyer for 25 years. and I say it as a hospice volunteer for. 20 years like we're losing everything. all the time that's what makes it. precious that's what makes it beautiful. that's what makes it worth paying. attention to because I don't have. unlimited time. Guess what? We don't. have unlimited time with anything in our. life. So, why wouldn't we just commit to.

like this much preventative maintenance? >> Well, you do have this really beautiful. chapter later in the book, How to Stay. in Love, that's all about writing a. letter. >> Oh, okay. Yeah. >> And this is on page 238. And you talk about the power of writing. a letter to the person that you're in a. relationship with, a really deep. personal letter. Would it be weird to. write a letter to someone you've shared. a bed with for years, whom you see and.

talk to dozens of times a day? Even for. those who can find the right words when. speaking, writing things out may help. you to better organize. I I Why am I. getting emotional? >> To better organize and hence understand. what you really want to say. Even if you end up not writing the. letter to your partner, I know mediators. who encourage their clients to come to. the first meeting with the letter to. their ex to be because it quote. lubricates communication as one put it.

to me. If at least some people in the. midst of divorce can do that, it should. be way easier for those in love knowing. that their partner is receptive to maybe. even hungry for communication and. intimacy. Anything that might ease. communication in a divorce should apply. far more effectively in a loving. relationship. Write a letter to your. partner. List at least five things they. do that you appreciate. Tell them a few.

things they do that upset you. Tell them. what you are craving but not getting. from them. Tell them a few things you. are getting and are incredibly grateful. for. Tell them a story from your shared. history in as much detail as you can. that you remember fondly. Maybe write a. mini chronicle of your marriage. It's. been said that the unexamined life is. not worth living. My experience has. taught me that the unexamined marriage. is not sustainable. So write your spouse. a letter. Make it simple or make it.

detailed, but make it authentic and. honest. You love him, right? >> Yeah. Yeah, I I stand by that. You know, it's. what I didn't say in there and I think. is worth saying is. even if you don't give it to your. spouse, it's worth writing that letter. Like I'll share with you, you know, when. my mom passed away 10 years ago after a. long battle with cancer, we had a. complicated relationship. And I remember talking to my therapist.

about it and saying like, you know, there's so many things like I wanted to. say to her. >> that I didn't get to say because it just. wasn't, we just I don't know, it just. wasn't, you know, she was so ill and. there was just no opportunity to have. that conversation. >> And he said, you know, write her a. letter like write her a letter and say. all the things that you needed to say. So I did. I took the time. I wrote this. long letter saying all the things I. needed to say and I brought it into. therapy and I read it out loud weeping.

And then he said, "I'm going to give you. another piece of homework." And I said, "Okay." He said, "Write a letter back. from her. >> and say all the things you needed to. hear.". That was much harder. because it forced me to think about like. what is it? What is it I needed from. this person? Like what is it I needed to. hear to heal? And so even though like. she never got to read that letter and.

even though the letter I wrote from her. was from an imagined version of her. >> Yeah. >> It was one of the most powerful. exercises I've ever and I' I've since. then used that technique in my life when. I'm having a really difficult time with. a person in my life where I'll I'll. write a letter of all the things that I. feel like I needed to say to them. often. not that I would ever give them. And. then I'll write back like what is it I. needed to hear from them? What is it I. want to hear from them? What would be.

their perfect response to this? And very. often like it reminds me that the. answers to these things are sometimes. inside me. Like like the wisdom you find. on mountain tops is the wisdom you. brought up there because sometimes you. just find yourself thinking like you. know what is it I needed her to say. because I know I don't have to hear her. say it. I knew it. You know, I I when I. wrote the letter back from my mom, a lot. of it was, "Hey, I wasn't mad at you. I've been sick for a really long time.". Like, and I was in pain and it wasn't.

you. And even [snorts] though she never. got to say that, I thought, >> "Oh, you know that.". >> Like, you know that or you couldn't have. written it if you didn't know it. But. just writing it, the act of writing it. and giving it voice and reading it out. loud even if there was no one else in. the room. So, writing a letter to anyone. in your life you're having a challenge. with, writing a letter back from them. with what it is you need to hear from. them, even if you never do anything with. that, you never edit it and give it to.

the person or anything like that, you're. just framing in your head what's really. going on here inside of me. because I'm. in here. Like, this is what's amazing to. me about marriage is. I feel like after 53 years of walking. around on this planet and 20 in therapy, I get myself like 75%. Okay? And I'm in here. like I'm in here and I get about what. hope do I have of understanding 100% of.

the person sitting across the table from. me or laying in the bed next to me? I'm. in here and I get 75% of it and I'm. going to get mad at myself cuz I don't. understand this person 100% and get them. what they need 100%. I don't get me what. I need 100% of the time. I don't get me. what I need 50% of the time. I screw it. up constantly. And they go, "Why did you. do that to yourself?" Give ourselves and. each other some grace. And just realize. that listen, this is just about.

understanding ourselves. What we need, what we want. this person have helping. them understand what they need, what. they want, and then figuring out how to. do that dance. >> If you had to save a marriage with one. thing, what would it be? >> I think the most important way to save a. marriage is to pay attention. I think we just stop paying attention. Like, whoever discovered water, it. wasn't a fish. When you're in it, you. just stop seeing it. And I think there's.

so much going on that you just don't. see. And I think if you paid attention, you you might see like you might step. out of the water and see. And I think. because marriage is very often about. this deep kind of proximity, >> it becomes the water. Like it just. becomes this thing that's around you all. the time. And and you stop seeing it. And I I think if you paid attention.

to what's going on inside of you and to. what's going on with this person, I. think most things the solution comes. from that first step. >> That's I think the most beautiful answer. I've ever heard about. >> thanks. >> a marriage. And of course I love David. Foster Wallace. >> Yeah. So good. So good. I actually. reread that essay like quite often. because I.

>> I actually think it's fascinating how. often I have to be reminded of that. >> You know, if you don't know the essay. we're talking about, which became this. very very viral um graduation speech. that David Foster Wallace, the writer, gave before he died. >> at Kenyon University. Yeah. Yeah. It's. out there. I think it's called This is. Water. They published it as something. called this is water, but you can. actually watch video of it. >> And there's this poignant moment the. essay hangs on where two fish are. swimming and they pass another fish and.

one of them says the other, "Hey, how's. the water?" And he says, "What's water?". >> Yeah. >> And then it unravels into this. unbelievably. profound essay about how much of life. you're missing because you're just not. present. And the thing that was. beautiful about that essay is I think he. he realized something that that maybe. not every person who's writing the story. in their head realizes, which is you. could just as easily cast the characters.

as villains or heroes. And you know, he. talks about in the essay how like the. person in line in front of you, you. know, who's like in a bad mood, you can. just say, "Oh, they're an awful person.". or like maybe they have a sick relative. at home and this is like the only minute. that they managed to get out and they're. so stressed and and he's like and if you. just reframe like it's just as easy to. tell yourself that story as it is to. tell yourself the story where they're. the villain and you're the hero. If if.

you judge me as a parent by my greatest. moment of parenting, you're giving me. too much credit. And if you judge me as. a parent by my weakest, worst moment as. a parent, you're not giving me enough. credit. I'm really kind of the aggregate. of all of those things. Well, that's a. lesson to bring to your marriage because. in your marriage, anytime someone tells. me the story of their life and they're. the hero of the story, I'm instantly. skeptical. Well, that's a really good. insight because we all have that friend, particularly the one going through a. divorce where the narrative is evil, evil, evil, evil, evil, evil, evil,

because you're hurt, >> of course, >> and there's no selfawareness to say, well, you know, >> I haven't been affectionate in three. years, so I can kind of see how the door. opened up for them to walk away or find. somebody else or I really have some. reflecting. There's and what I just. going back to that essay and the moment. in the essay of not seeing the water and. also you can choose to write a story. about the rude person. >> Yeah. >> It goes back to the original thing that.

you said. You always have the. opportunity to remind yourself. >> Yeah. >> that a really good relationship is one. is where you can be in the narrative. This is my favorite person. >> Yeah. >> Even if they're pissing me off right. now. >> Yeah. Even if I have a lot of evidence. for the things that have gone wrong, even if I'm scared we're headed for. divorce, I can still. stand in a narrative that this is my. favorite person, I at least remember a. time when they were. >> Yeah. And and what are what are the core.

components of that beauty that you saw. in them? >> Yes. >> That are still there? If they've. changed, what changed them? Because it's. rarely like a nefarious thing, right? like you know if I let myself get out of. shape it's not that I I was like oh I. really want to be in bad shape you know. like when my mom was actively on hospice. I gained 30 lbs. >> because I took such like pleasure like.

everything hurt it felt like so I would. eat dinner every night and I would just. eat anything I would eat like delicious. because it just gave me like a moment of. sensory pleasure and I remember like. people who I knew but only knew casually. through work being like oh Jim you've. been you putting on a couple pound I. just remember like it hurts so badly. because I wanted to say to them like do. you understand this is the only thing I. have right now. >> like is that food tastes good like. everything else hurts right now and I I.

feel like if we looked at our partners. and went okay this even if they're not. currently my favorite person they were. >> I think it's a really important tool. that I want to make sure is you're. listening and watching you land the. plane on that one. >> Yeah. >> And understand that it's a tool, which. is if you're in a patch in your. relationship where things are really. challenging. >> Okay. Um or you hear that phrase, you're. my favorite person because I ran to the.

bathroom and bumped into somebody that. was coming out of the bathroom like, "Oh. my god, James is unbelievable." You and. he can boil relationships down to one. sentence. You're my favorite person. Yeah. >> And the person coming out of the. bathroom looked at me and said, "Oh my. god, that's hard.". >> I think it's hard because. I think it's scary to think. that no one could love us that way. >> And it's also scary to think that anyone. could.

>> I I think those are equally terrifying. [laughter]. Like as a human being, I I find both of. those things terrifying. I find the. prospect that I could ever feel that way. about another person and I would know. I'm going to someday lose them. >> is terrifying. And to consider the. possibility that someone could actually. know me, all of the stuff in me and go, "No, you're my favorite person." Like to. me, like that's I mean, there's nothing.

more incredible than the possibility of. that. When I look back at my life, every single thing that meant anything. was some connection to another person, someone I loved, someone who loved me, a. moment where I felt loved truly and. deeply for who I am, where I felt joy. for being in the presence of someone who. loved me or who I loved. When I felt joy. of just being in the presence of love. Like as a hospice volunteer, I will tell.

you nobody I've ever done hospice visits. with wants to talk about the fact that. they're dying. It's not that. interesting. It's something that they're. confronting all the time. They're aware. of it. They don't want to talk about it. They don't need to talk about it. It's. their present reality. They want to talk. about their life. They want to talk. about the people they love. They're not. that interested in the things they. owned. Like they're they're interested. in the connections they made, the impact. they made, and when they were loved. Like feeling loved I think is the most. powerful thing in the world. And there.

are a lot of people who don't feel loved. ever in their life. And sometimes that's. their circumstance. And sometimes it's. that they they haven't had the real. courage it takes to let someone see the. truth of you. >> From your bestselling book, How to Stay. in Love. This is page 248. When is the last time you and your. spouse discussed what it specifically. means to be happy and how you each. define that term? When was the last time.

you discussed in specific terms what a. satisfying sex life is for each of you? These should be conversations you look. forward to. They're about being happy. and about for sake. You're married. That means you're in the. same car, driving on the same road. Logic says you should be headed toward. the same destination. Are you who. selected that destination? Is it where. you both want to get? Is it one of you. crawling out the back window while the.

other one plows ahead blindly? >> Yeah. Yeah. I think we we don't ask enough. questions about what's going on in our. relationships. I mean, in terms of where. are we going, like what's the story. we're writing together? You know, you'd. never I live in New York City. You'd. never get in a cab and just go drive, you know? you you say where it is you. want to go and then you can have a. conversation about what's the best way. to get there. But you know to some. degree we we learn about relationships.

by watching our parents or the. environment we grew up in and [snorts]. by watching popular media and now by. watching curated images on social media. So those are the three ways to do it. I. don't think any of those is a. particularly honest or great teacher. necessarily. And you know. marriage is very much rooted in. tradition. And tradition. I think is is really two things in.

varying measure. It's the wisdom of the. people who came before us and what they. have to teach us. And it's peer pressure. exerted by dead people. When you're. doing something because it's tradition. like why did you get married? Well, my. mom and dad got married and my. grandparents got married. My. great-grandmother got married. And by. the way, the reason your. great-grandmother got married is cuz her. mother got married, right? So your great. great great grandmother got married. Okay. Your great great great grandmother. used a buggy whip. Do you have a buggy. whip? Like are all the technologies that.

made Did she have the entire sum total. of human wisdom available in a device. held in her hand that comes from the. sky? Because that's incredible. Like she. lived in a different universe than the. one you navigate on a daily basis. Why. would you think the technology of. marriage that worked for her will work. for you the same way with the same. tools? And all you need to do is watch. how this was done in this apprenticeship. model of figuring out what marriage. looks like. Your relationship, your.

rules, the two of you. It's the only two. people that matter is the two of you. Are you happy? The two of you. Do you. have a rhythm that works for you? You. know, I I I posted something a couple of. weeks ago where I was talking about how. I personally don't understand why people. sleep in the same bed. Just for me, I. just don't get it. Like two adults and. two dogs, it's a lot in a bed. Like, I'm. not saying. >> Well, you also have a broken nose, so. you probably are a big snorer. time snorer. You do not want to be in. that bed. And the truth is, like, if you.

think about it, like, hey, listen, like, spend time in bed, have fun in bed, all. those things, but then go sleep in your. own bed like a civilized person. Now. again, this is my personal feeling. People had a lot of feelings about this. It had hundreds of thousands of. comments. >> Why do you think people had a lot of. feelings about that? >> Because I I think people hear anyone. saying here's what's important in my. relationship as you're doing it wrong in. your relationship. And all I'm actually.

trying to get anyone to do is just let's. all come out of the closet a little bit. like let's all come out and say you know. my spouse and I do this it works for us. because it once you start doing that. everybody at the table starts to go oh. yeah we do that too me that's the best. stuff in life is that that intimacy is. those little tiny shared private joys. like that's the coolest most wonderful. thing we don't share that with each.

other and by the way it's not for public. consumption necessarily but just sharing. that like give it a shot and see like. that might be the cure for the. disconnection between the two of you is. to be silly sometimes together. Or maybe. you know it really is like well we have. to sleep in the same bed. Who told you. you have to sleep in the same bed? Maybe. you are the kind of people that would be. more comfortable sleeping in separate. beds or maybe one of you or both of you. think it's really important to be in the. cave together curled up holding each. other. Like all that matters is the two. of you coming up with rules that make.

sense for you. Who cares how many times. a week I have sex? How many times a week. do the two of you feel satisfied with. having sex? If it's good enough for the. two of you, no one else's business. It's. no one else's business. >> Well, I think the reason why people get. so offended by that opinion. >> Yeah. >> Is that if you're honest with yourself, you're clinging to very surface level. pieces of evidence. >> of connection. >> Yeah. We're doing great.

the ring of the finger or the fact that. we're in the same bed. >> that that means you're connected. And. when somebody erupts, >> it's because you're showing us all. >> that connection is actually something. else. >> And again, like I love that because the. truth is we live in a symbolic world. >> I as humans, we're constantly making. meaning. We live in a symbolic world. Like why do I wear a tie? Why do I wear. a suit? Like, why couldn't I just go to. court in jeans and a t-shirt? Like, I I.

wear this suit for a reason. When you. wear a Why do you wear a suit to a job. interview or a funeral or a wedding? Cuz. you're saying this suit is a statement. The statement is I take this seriously. This thing I'm doing, I take it very. seriously. And what you're what you. taught us today or what you taught me is. that the symbols of I'm sleeping in a. bed or I have a ring on my finger or. we've been together for 32 years. >> That's actually not the symbol of. connection. No, >> it's do you show up and treat somebody.

as if they're your favorite person. >> Yeah. Yeah. Because here's what I'll. tell you and it's a hot take and it's an. unfalsifiable premise so it's safe. I genuinely believe that the connection. that you have with Chris and that many. of the very happily married people that. I know, if you took off the ring, if you. took away the government's involvement, they would still be two people who were. each other's favorite person and loved. each other more than anything and wanted.

to stay together forever. Not because. they were afraid of giving away half. their things or because but because. their life is better because this person. is next to them. And to me, that's worth. fighting for. That's worth building. That's the thing worth protecting if you. lucky enough to have found it. Like I. say sometimes, marriage is like the. lottery. You're probably not going to. win. But if you win, what you win is so. fantastic. Why wouldn't you buy a ticket? Why.

wouldn't you try? Why wouldn't you? And. unlike the lottery, there are very. specific practical things you can do. that will increase the chances of you. succeeding at this thing. And they're. not difficult. They don't mean require. you to buy anything. They don't require. grand gestures, which is by the way why. you're not hearing about it from. advertisers cuz there's nothing to buy. There's no course to take. There's. nothing like it's all stuff you already. naturally know how to do and what to do. cuz it's all the same things that if.

someone did it for you, it would make. you feel seen and loved and heard and. important. >> James Stton, what are your parting. words? >> Oh my gosh, you're going to get me. speechless. I I think my parting words are, you. know, love each other fearlessly. It's the bravest thing in the world. like it's the bravest and best thing in. the world. And. I genuinely believe that we're worthy of.

love. I genuinely believe almost. everything we do every day is to find. love, be worthy of love, and keep love. And I think it boils down to. two words and four words. pay attention. and you're my favorite person. >> I cannot tell you how completely floored.

I am. >> Thanks. >> by you. I I feel so grateful. >> thanks. >> that you are doing the work that you're. doing. I got I I'm so moved by. everything that you shared and even just. pay attention and you're my favorite. person. Yeah, >> those are two things that are going to. immediately. improve and deepen my relationship with. Chris because it's a skill that we have. to continue. It's the rep. >> that you do in a relationship.

>> But I think you know what what you're. standing in like awe of and moved by is. what's inside you. Like it's the. feelings inside of you for Chris and for. the people in your life that you love. and the love that of theirs that you. feel towards you and how that makes you. view yourself because you know it's. authentic and real that love and and if. you can love yourself the way that those. people love you like that's the greatest.

superpower ever. And so like I I think. this is just what love's supposed to be. is that we bring this out in each other. We bring out in each other. >> Yes. >> What's in there? >> Yeah. >> That's all. >> Yeah. Well, thank you for um absolutely. everything. >> Thanks for having me. It's great to see. you. It's great to It's It's great to. stand in the presence of it when people. like there's so much that I have to. learn from people like you and Chris who. have maintained that connection. And I.

feel like for me there's tremendous. value when I get to talk about these. things because I'm learning it. It's. moving me in the same way. You know, like this is all I could I could say. this every day and I would still lose. the plot sometimes. So, >> well, I'll tell you one thing that. really struck me is when you said, ask. yourself if you're in one of those. moments in your relationship, what's. changed? And if I look back on the. period of time where Chris and I really. struggled Yeah. And you can point at the. stress of life and the financial. pressure we were under and just.

everything that was going on. But what. we've now really realized is that a lot. of what. changed was that his father died. >> Yeah. >> In the middle of it. >> Yeah. >> And it's only recently, and this would. have been 19 years ago, I mean, that he. really understand how that just changed. him. And I didn't see it. >> Yeah. and grief, you know, sneaks up on. you. And especially too when when like. Chris, you you navigate the terrain of. that, like it's a familiar terrain,

>> you sort of feel like, oh, I'm I'm. exempt from it. Like a physician who's. like when they get ill. Yeah. >> You know, but it's like, no, no, no. Like this is different like experiencing. it outside of the connection of self and. family and it puts yourself in the where. you stand in the history of things and. you know, it's all sort of impermanence. at the end of the day. But I have to. tell you, I I think again, if you pay. attention, it all of that is there. Like all I I've. learned firsthand as a as a divorce.

trial lawyer for almost three decades. now how much ugliness and anger is in. all of us. And I've also learned how. much beauty is in all of us. And I I try. in my relationship with the world to. bring what I think people bring in a. good marriage, which is. >> they cling to the possibility of the. good in us and they try to overlook the. possibility of the fool in us. >> And there's nothing to me more beautiful. than that.

>> Well, James Sexton, thank you for. showing us what to pay attention to. >> Thank you. >> So we can experience all the. possibilities that love and. relationships have for us. And I also. want to thank you. Thank you for making. the time to listen to or watch this. conversation. I know you feel so moved. I hope you will share this generously. I. hope you've already shared it with your. favorite person. And in case no one else. tells you today, as your friend, I want.

to tell you that I love you and I. believe in you. And I believe in your. ability to create a better life. And I. know based on everything that I was. reminded of, everything that James. taught us today that I have tools to. [music] create a better life because. this is going to lead to more love, better relationships, [music]. and we all deserve that. All righty, I'll see you in the very next episode. I'm going to welcome you in the moment. you hit play. Thank you for watching all. the way to the end. I [music] love this. I know you did, too. And thank you for. sharing this with people that you love. We all need to hear this advice. [music].

And I know you want to know what's the. next video you should watch cuz you love. this one so much. I think you're going. to love this and I'll welcome you. [music] in the moment you hit play.