The Manipulation Expert: 4 Hidden Signs You’re Dealing With a Toxic Person

Have you noticed that nowadays people. just throw words around like, "Oh, this. person's toxic. [music] That person's a. narcissist. This person's a psychopath.". As if it's nothing. But, these words do. mean something very [music] specific. Dr. Leanne Birk is here to teach you and. me how to spot [music] a truly toxic. person and what to look for and what to. do. >> People with very little training can. [music]. detect with some kernel of truth the. extent to which someone has psychopathic. personality traits. Just like 5 seconds.

>> 5 seconds? >> 5 seconds. >> Dr. Leanne Birk. She runs the Truth and. Trust Lab at the University of British. Columbia, where she is a professor of. forensic psychology. She's spent two. decades studying manipulators, chronic. liars, [music] and dark personalities. >> We've got psychopathy, narcissism, Machiavellianism, and [music] sadism. >> What are you looking for? >> They're incredibly manipulative, and. they often come across as very. superficially charming. What you see is. not necessarily what you get, right?

Friendly-looking demeanor on the. outside, um masking that hostility and. anger underneath. >> What she calls poisonous people aren't. just the subjects of true crime. investigation. [music] They're in. boardrooms. They're in public office. You might encounter them in your living. room or at work. >> [music]. >> She'll also reveal a simple way to know. if you're being manipulated. And if you have [music] to communicate. with somebody with a dark personality, the one rule you have to follow. Can a.

person with a dark personality change? >> So, >> Hey, it's Mel. And before we jump into. this extraordinary episode, my team was. showing me this. 51% of you who watch the Mel Robbins. podcast here on YouTube are not. subscribers. If that subscribe button is. lit up, it means you're not subscribed. Would. you please do me a favor and hit the. subscribe button. My goal is to get that. number to 40%. I know you love supporting people who. support you, and that's the best way to. support me and the team here. Thank you.

in advance for hitting subscribe. I. truly appreciate it and trust me, you're. going to be so happy you're here cuz. this conversation is extraordinary. Please help me welcome Dr. Leanne ten. Brink to the Mel Robbins podcast. >> Thank you for having me. I'm so excited. to be here. >> I am so excited that you flew in all the. way from British Columbia. >> Mhm. >> Because I am fascinated by your field of. expertise and your research and our team. devoured. your best-selling book Poisonous People.

And what I'd love to have you do is. if the person listening applies. everything that you're about to teach us. from your studies of deception and dark. personalities and they apply it starting. today, what will change? >> I think they learn how to reduce one of. the biggest stressors in all of our. lives. Because. dark personalities and I'm not talking. about like the super extreme clinical.

levels here necessarily. People who are just like consistently. callous and manipulative in our lives. And so you can probably, you know, everyone has someone in their lives that. kind of. might be popping into their head right. now, right? So like the manipulative. sister-in-law, the like the boss at work. who just like needs all the attention. and takes all the credit for your work. Um the you know, callous mother-in-law. I get a lot of callous mother-in-laws. >> Really? >> In the comments. And it's just like.

these are people who cause us incredible. amounts of stress. They divide us. They make us think that everyone is. terrible. And when that's not the case. Um and you know, they erode norms of. polite conduct. They They. competition where cooperation would be. so much better for everybody. Basically, like this one bad apple can really ruin. the barrel. And I think today.

I'm hoping to give people some tools to. stop that rot. >> Oh my gosh. You know what was amazing about as you. were talking? Is. it probably happened for you as you were. listening to Dr. Tenbrink, but. I started to have situations and people. pop into my mind. And one of the things. that I wondered almost immediately, because as you talked about these are.

the. huge source of stress. You talked about. callous, manipulative, they divide us. They make you think other people are. terrible. They they stir up controversy. and competition. Is it always someone who's doing it. overtly or would this apply to somebody. who's maybe a little bit more victimy. and softer in their approach? Like as we. kind of cuz I want I want to start the. conversation by you having people in. your mind that cause you stress so that.

you can think specifically about how to. apply this. >> Yeah, so, you know, we define dark. personalities as. you know, the the overlap between kind. of specific dark personalities, which. I'm sure we'll get into, is this kind of. nexus of like callous, manipulative, and. hostile. Um and so and they they certainly know. what they're doing. So, one of the. questions I often get is like, you know, um. do these people realize that they are.

this way? Right? Um and the answer is. yes, because we often measure these. personality traits with like a. self-report. We ask them, >> [clears throat]. >> you know, is this characteristic of you? And they'll say, yeah, that sounds like me." Like, I don't have. any remorse. I am a born leader. I am. okay manipulating other people to get my. way and I don't feel bad about it. And. so, it's not like they don't realize. that they are this way, but they don't.

necessarily care or they're not like. concerned about that impact on other. people, right? That's that callous. piece. So, that combination of. manipulativeness and callousness, I'm. going to take advantage of you. I'm. going to tell lies and then I don't. really worry about the consequences or. how that makes you feel. >> Got it. I'm so happy that you just. defined callous cuz that was going to be. my next question. So, manipulative is my. behavior does impact you and callous. means I don't really care that it does.

>> Yeah. >> So, what does a poisonous person look. like in day-to-day life? >> So, a poisonous person has elevated. levels of callousness, manipulativeness, and hostility toward other people. That's kind of the the core of dark. personality traits. >> Okay. >> Yeah. And so, like if you're trying to. think of, you know, in your life, what. does that person look like? >> Yes. >> Right? So, they might be. the boss who is like consistently. self-focused and takes advantage of all.

of the people that work underneath them, takes credit for their work, manipulates. them perhaps into doing work that is not. part of their job description, and then, you know, is like, "Oh, this is all. about me." Right? It could be the you know, manipulative. mom at the PTA, right? Like, she's kind. of pulling the strings, she's spreading. rumors, and all so that she can kind of. like maintain this position of power, right? There's you know, other versions, right?

So, you might have um. your friend's new boyfriend, right? Might seem really, you know, really kind. of sickeningly sweet around her, but is. actually really cruel to everyone else. around him and. seems like he might be like love bombing. her, right? Like creating this, you. know, beautiful sense of future for. them, but you see the the pattern. everywhere else, which is that he is he.

is callous, he doesn't care about other. people, he treats them poorly, he. dominates people, and so I think we see these. personalities in all different versions. or all different aspects of our life. because your a personality is a. consistent way of thinking, feeling, and. behaving. And by virtue of it being consistent, that means it's like you take your. personality with you wherever you go, right? So, sometimes you're at the. grocery store, sometimes you're at work,

sometimes you're with your family, and. so we see these types of personalities, you know, in all different aspects of. our life. >> I want to hover right there. and make sure that I got that. So, a. personality is a consistent way of. being, thinking, behaving, and feeling. >> Mhm. >> And when we look at this in the context. of you know, poisonous people that are. hostile, callous, manipulative, so. you're kind of seeing this almost. consistent trend of somebody's hostile.

towards other people, callous, I don't. care, manipulative, I'm going to do what. I need to do to get what I need. >> Mhm. >> Before we go even deeper, I cannot wait. to dig into this. Could you just list. quickly for the person who's listening. right now, what are the four kinds of. dark personalities that we're going to. dig into in detail? >> So, personality psychologists talk about. four different but overlapping traits as. the dark tetrad of personality traits.

So, we've got. >> Does tetrad mean four? >> It sure does. Yeah. >> I'm learning a lot today. >> We probably could have. >> some big words. >> Dr. Tenbring. [laughter]. >> We probably could have come up with like. a flashier. >> Well, I would have thought it would have. a quad if it was four. So, tetrad threw. me off. >> [laughter]. >> But anyway, that's what we That's what. we've gone with. Um we've got. psychopathy. >> Psychopathy, okay. >> Narcissism. >> Mhm. >> Machiavellianism. >> Mhm. >> And sadism. >> So, these are the four dark personality.

types, but as you've already said, as. we're digging into each one, we can spot. trends. >> Mhm. >> There may be some overlap. >> Yes, absolutely. So, like I. that. question that I sometimes get, you know, is this person a narcissist or a. psychopath? That also suggests that. they're like completely separate things, right? And when we get into the. definitions, you'll notice that there's. there's a reasonable amount of overlap. So, uh these traits tend to be. moderately correlated. So, if you're.

high in one, chances are you're also. higher in others. And so, it's not like. an either or kind of thing. Um it's. often like a yes and. >> Got you. After this episode, when you. start to apply what we're learning, is. it more useful not to label somebody a. narcissist, but to go that's a. narcissistic personality style right. there, ding ding ding ding ding, or they. have the makings of a sociopath? Like,

how do I talk to my my best friend about. this? >> Yeah, I think it's certainly more. accurate to say like this individual. seems like they have high levels of. psychopathic personality traits or. narcissistic personality traits. I know. it's a bit of a mouthful, but it. recognizes the fact that, you know, this. is a continuum and not, you know, kind. of um. a black and white. >> Yes. >> situation. >> Well, what I also like about that, even. though it's a mouthful, is that. I think for so much of my life anyway,

and I'm sure as you're listening, you're. going to feel the same way that I have. given so much time and energy and. experienced so much heartache. >> Mhm. >> at the hands of people. >> Yeah. >> that are hostile, callous, and. manipulative. >> Yeah. >> And. if I can take a step back. and be able to be more of a ninja with. this, where I can go, "Oh, there's a. narcissistic personality style.". >> Mhm. >> I think I could recognize it sooner.

>> Mhm. >> Versus. thinking you have to label somebody. something versus spotting behavior and. recognizing, "Oh, I got to I got to step. back from that. I got to I got to. recognize that and step back.". >> Yeah. >> Versus just saying, "Oh, that person is. that kind of person." If that makes. sense. >> Yeah, totally. I think sometimes we get. caught up in like trying to figure out. what is the label. Like, is is she this or is she that? And that can kind of distract us from. like, you know, it doesn't have to be. either or. It's just like, "Oh, I see. there's callousness coming across in a.

lot of her behavior." And so now I'm. like, "Okay, I'm keyed into the. callousness and I can try to interact. with her in a different way that is. going to like reduce some of the impact. of those personality traits. >> I find that to be really helpful. >> Mhm. >> Because I feel more equipped than to. spot it across a continuum versus. waiting for behavior to build up to the. point where I label somebody. >> Mhm. >> Let's start with sociopath because you. hear that word thrown around a lot. What. actually is a sociopath, Dr. Tenbrink,

and how do you spot one? >> So, people with high levels of. psychopathy, I've got a visual here. >> You do. Okay, good. >> Yeah. Okay, check this out. >> And I want to tell the person who's. listening what it is so you don't feel. like you're left out. It is a. illustration of a person who who is. wearing a mask and behind the mask you. can see that they're either angry, callous, and manipulative, but the mask. that they're wearing has a big smiley. kind of friendly face. >> Mhm.

So, uh psychopathy is actually a. constellation of traits. It's not just. one thing. Um. but it's a set of traits that when you. kind of put them together creates. psychopathy. Um I think this. illustration is um. is a good kind of depiction of the mask. of sanity. So, one of the early. researchers who studied. uh psychopathy used this phrase to. describe people with high levels of. psychopathy. And it's because they. you know, they're incredibly.

manipulative. And they often come across. as very superficially charming. And so. like what you see is not necessarily. what you get, right? And so you can see. this kind of, you know, friendly-looking. demeanor on the outside um masking that. hostility and anger underneath. So, when I talk about psychopathy being, you. know, a constellation. of traits, that means that um. you know, it's more than just one thing. It all comes together to form. psychopathy. One way to chop up those.

behaviors uh or those constituent parts. of psychopathy has a relatively long. history with Dr. Bob Hare. And. he broadly mapped those pieces on to. being callous, manipulative, impulsive, and antisocial. And so we can. go through each of those though. >> Yes, let's What do you like cuz I'm. like, "Ooh.". Okay, well so we hear callous, manipulative, but you also said. antisocial. >> Mhm. >> And what was the other one? >> And impulsive. >> Impulsive. What's the impulsivity about?

>> The impulsivity is that, you know, they. tend to respond to risk differently than. other people. So, they don't do a lot of. thinking before they're acting. They. tend to be pretty reckless and. irresponsible. Um this might lead to. them kind of having a what we call a. parasitic lifestyle. Like they're. mooching off of other people cuz they're. not putting in the like consistent work. and planning of you know planning out a. career. you know a family all these things that. go into life right.

so that's the impulsivity bit and then. the antisocial is a proneness to. breaking the rules and this you know. we've often studied psychopathy in the. context of. you know criminal justice settings and. so this could be legal rules right that. they're breaking but it doesn't have to. be that it can be kind of social norms. of. kindness or politeness or fairness it. can also be like workplace conduct right. like we've got certain rules in the. workplace and they are you know kind of.

blatantly disregarding those kinds of. things so putting all those things. together callous manipulative antisocial. impulsive that's what is the kind of. combination that makes up psychopathy. >> so when I hear the word. psychopath. >> mm. >> I think about some sort of horror movie. >> yes. >> and some person running around killing. people. Dr Tenbrink can you give us an example. of two. since this this personality trait.

runs on a continuum. >> mm. >> what does a. uh subtle version of a psychopath. look like you know on one continuum and. what might it look like on the other in. terms of what you would encounter in. your life. >> mm. so I mean very low would be someone who. is like kind and honest and follows the. rules right and so that is actually most. people. and very high.

but perhaps not that kind of serial. killer stereotype would be you know. someone who is. tells a lot of lies. is very superficially charming so like. they seem they're very like kind of fun. to talk to in the moment but if you. think about the conversation you had. later, you're like, "None of that really. makes sense. There's not a lot of. substance. to what they said if you examine it. in some depth.". Um they are also they don't care.

They're like very remorseless, right? Um. not experiencing a whole lot of guilt. Um breaking a whole lot of rules. And. they're not really thinking too far. ahead, right? So you can imagine this. kind of personality almost anywhere. You. can uh think about them in the. workplace, maybe. You might have a. coworker who, you know, is very. charismatic and everyone loves them at. the start. And uh they're always. breaking the rules at work, but people.

see them and they're like, "That's a. go-getter. You know, they're they're. they're great. They are so smart. They're doing" But you like behind the. scenes are like, "They don't do their. work. They're. >> [laughter]. >> They're breaking the rules all of the. time.". >> Uh-huh. >> Um and they're really more like, you know, talk a big game than actually. back it up with, you know, the time and. the effort that you often need to be. good at your job. >> That is incredibly helpful. Are there. any. early warning signs that you may be.

dealing with this kind of personality. type either in somebody that you're. dating or that your brother's now dating. or in a family member? >> So I mean you you spot one of these. individuals again by looking for. consistent patterns, >> Uh-huh. >> of these traits over time and across. contexts. Um but there are some early warning. signs, right? So if you think about if. you act in these ways consistently over. time, if I just happen to pop into your. life for like a minute, chances are I.

might see some of those patterns. happening, right? It's not a perfect. indicator and I might see new. information over time. Um but there are some things that you. can look for. So, you can look for um things like. inappropriate. emotional expressions, especially, you. know, if someone has failed or if. someone um is hurting, they might look. like they're actually enjoying that kind. of thing. Um they might be expressing. really hostile language, but smiling at.

the same time, so you get this kind of. like. um. >> [clears throat]. >> weird emotional presentation. Uh you might also get that superficial. charm where it feels, you know, kind of. really good in the moment, but if you. examine what they actually said, >> Hm. >> there's not a whole lot of substance. there. Um they tend to be kind of combative, right? So, they might be. um kind of pushing on your personal and. professional boundaries. So, even if you.

say, "Oh, I don't really talk about my. family while I'm at work." They. they keep asking you about it. Um. and in addition to that, they might be. kind of impulsive in their answers. They're asking very you know, answering. very quickly, off the cuff. They. interrupt you all the time, but they get. really angry if you interrupt them. because they tend to like to be kind of. dominating uh or domineering in. conversations. >> Let me tell you about Verizon's brand. new Simplicity Plan. It's one plan, one.

price, $30 a line per month, even for a. single line, with their best 5G network. for all. That's it. That's the plan. And. when it comes to your phone, you can do. what works for you. Already love your. phone? Great, keep it. Or it's easy to. buy a new one. Or you could upgrade to. the newest phone every year for a. monthly charge. So, let's get this. straight. One plan, one price, $30 a. line per month, plus your phone, your. way, and their best 5G network. I guess.

the Simplicity Plan is just that, super. simple. Maybe that's why they named it. that. One plan, one price, and the best. network for everyone. Switch to Verizon. today. For new customers, $30 a line. includes Auto Pay and Switch discount. Additional taxes, fees, and terms apply. Unlimited data is restricted to. on-device smartphone usage, domestic. data roaming at 2G speeds. >> What is Machiavellianism? >> Did I say that right?

>> Yes, you did. >> Yeah, that's a big word. >> I know, it's so many syllables. Um. so, Machiavellianism is a tendency to. desire status and control. Like, they. really want to be in charge. They want. to be in power. They want maybe fame or. money, whatever that is. Um and they have a really amoral. approach to manipulation. Meaning, like, they're very willing to kiss someone's. butt to get ahead, but they're also just. as willing to like spread rumors or tell. lies to do that. And they're not.

particularly bothered. They're just. like, "What do I need to get, you know, to the top of the food chain here?" And. they're willing to do that. >> is somebody who'll step on your head or. spread lies about you in order to get. what they want? >> Yeah, totally. >> You're I know we have a visual. Let's. pull this sucker up. >> Yes, we do have a visual. Okay. So, this. one um. we got the chess pieces, right? So, he's. knocking you off the board. >> Yes. >> Right? So, you're in the way, knocking. you off the board. I think, you know, what this depicts is essentially is very.

strategic social style. So, like, where. we talked about psychopathy, having that. kind of impulsive nature, >> Mhm. >> right? This is different. This is like, they're willing to like kind of plan. things out. They're like, "Oh, Mel told. me something kind of embarrassing. I'm. going to like put that in my back. pocket, and I'll bring that back up. later whenever I kind of need to turn. the screws on her or something like. that.". >> Is this the kind of person where I think. we've all had that experience where you.

have this sense. that somebody is turning it on and. showing up when they need something. >> Mhm. >> And the second that they have gotten. what they needed and used you for a. particular purpose, you're gone. >> Yeah, absolutely. You know, I spoke to. some people who especially like at work. would see this kind of behavior. You. know, very strategic, you know, pushing. people out very subtly, you know, managing up to the boss to try to get.

what they want. So and these people tend. to be very, you know, unsatisfied with. their current position [clears throat]. and all like always gunning for. something better. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> What does this look like in a family? >> That's a great question. You know, usually we think about it at work. Um but in a family, you know, again it. would be just that desire for power, control over other people. Um and probably very willing to, you. know, create these divisions maybe.

between, you know, the the cousins and. the uncles and the whatever. Create. divisions so that they come out on top. >> Mhm. >> Um so yeah, it would be very similar, right? And so like we take our. personalities with us wherever we go. So. the same kinds of strategies, but just. playing out in a different context. >> How do you spot a Machiavellian. personality style at work? Like what are. some of the behavior patterns that you. should. just pay attention to?

>> So this is good what's really going to. be helpful here is talking to other. people. >> About that person? >> Uh-huh. >> Why? >> So. my. dear post-doc advisor, Dr. Dacher. Keltner, >> Yes, who's been on this podcast. We love. him, the science of awe. >> He's amazing. He did this study on a. gossip in a sorority. And essentially he. asked everyone to fill out a measure of. their Machiavellian traits. And then he.

also asked the girls like, who, you. know, who do you talk about? Who do you. who gets talked about like in private. conversations, right? Who's well-liked? Who has status? Um and who is respected. And what he found is that the people who. were gossiped about the most were people. who were not well-liked, but they were. well-known. And they weren't well-liked because they. were highly Machiavellian and people. perceived them as having status that.

they didn't really deserve. >> Oh. >> And so this is a situation in which, you. know, it can be really helpful to. maybe not take all rumors as face value, right? But like, you know, pay attention. because people are going to be talking. about these individuals because they're. so power-hungry and because they are. often like, you know, stepping over. other people to get to where they want. to be. >> seem fair that they have the job they. have or they have the attention of the.

boss or they have the title that they. have because behind the scenes we all. know they either manipulated their way. there or they didn't earn it. >> Yeah. >> Well, that makes a lot of sense. >> Mhm. >> That makes a lot You can You could see. that playing out in a family. >> Yeah. >> where you have somebody that becomes the. favorite and who is also always stirring. up drama and always sucking the energy. out of the room. >> Yeah. >> And it doesn't seem fair. >> Right. Yeah, and it can be hard to see, you. know, because they they used they use.

manipulation and they use it quite. strategically. Like it can be hard to. see through at the start. I think that's. what's hard about all of these. personality traits is that they've got. manipulation at the core of them, right? >> define manipulation? >> Manipulation is just the the willingness. to um use other people to your own ends. And so you are, you know, you're. essentially like pulling the strings on. other people, changing their perspective. perhaps by telling lies or half-truths. Um. Yeah, and shaping the situation.

>> because I was about to say, aren't we. all like using other people here? So, but what you just said though is very. important. You basically said you're do. you're willing to do whatever it takes. to use people. >> Mhm. >> Like I suppose on some level we all hope. that our friends reciprocate. >> Yeah. >> We all hope that by, you know, being. loving and kind you're going to get it. back, but that's not a form of. manipulation cuz I'm not deceiving you. in some way. Is that Is that a fair way. to think about it? Cuz I cuz I often struggle with the fact. that, you know,

and. this is kind of a probably a. conversation for after we finish these. four personality traits, but here's. something I struggle with. Like I know. people are wildly stressed out and. overwhelmed. >> Yeah. >> And there's a lot going on. >> Mhm. >> with the state of the world. >> Mhm. >> And you never know what somebody is. dealing with, and I also recognize. >> Mhm. >> that you typically are not dealing with. the actual person in front of you. You're dealing with their childhood. issues and their emotional state and. whether or not they've eaten anything. and their.

tolerance for. uh emotions and. blah-blah-blah-blah-blah. >> Mhm. >> But. I and so I often try. to give people the benefit of the doubt. from a very safe distance. >> Yeah. >> But. we are living in a moment in time where. the behavior of people in public, the. behavior of people online, the acting. out in families, the.

it just seems like. toxic behavior has skyrocketed. And so I am just trying to disertain. when you know. >> Yeah. >> that somebody's truly being manipulative. versus somebody is having a. super bad week. >> Yeah. >> Or they're just really. at. a point because of this stuff going on. that you don't know about that they're. emotionally flooded. >> Mhm. >> And they didn't intend to be this way,

but they're walking all over. Do you Do. you know what I mean? >> Yeah, totally. So, you could be like. consistently callous and manipulative, right? And therefore, you probably have. high levels of these dark traits. But, that doesn't mean that the rest of. us are never callous and manipulative, right? And there's often uh situations. that are more likely to bring that. behavior out. >> Mhm. >> Um so, and you're right that the world. right now it seems like it is pushing on.

a lot of those situational factors that. increase. um. the likelihood that we'll behave in. these kinds of ways. So, I mean, we can. always we can. probably all think of a time when we. were not our best selves, right? Um and. >> bad about that though. >> Yeah. >> And I apologize for it. And I then beat. myself up over it. And what you're. saying, I. I'm starting to ascertain, Dr. Ten. Brink, is that a person with dark par-. personality traits actually does not. >> No.

No. Be- I mean, especially psychopathy, a lack of guilt and remorse is like core. to what that personality is. >> Is that the kind of person that also. holds grudges? >> Uh yes. Yeah, absolutely. >> I'm thinking of somebody that I know. >> [laughter]. >> Dr. Ten Brink, what's the number one. sign you're being manipulated? >> So, if this person wants something from you, you know, maybe it's your time, your.

money, your influence. And if they seem to be a different. person around you than everyone else, >> Mhm. >> I think that's a big red flag that. you're not seeing. who they are. So, you know, early in romantic. relationships we'll hear about, you. know, love bombing. And, you know, this. person seemed like the perfect partner. They, you know, they were always texting. me. They sent flowers. Um they want the. same things that I want out of this. relationship. All seems great, just the.

two of us, but like look at how they. treat the Uber driver, the barista, the like hostess at the. restaurant, especially when they don't. think you're looking. And if you start to see that like. consistent kind of cruel treatment of. people. that are not you, I think that pattern. is going to come for you eventually, because the broader pattern is bad. Is a. dark personality kind of pattern.

Um eventually you're not going to be the. exception anymore. You're going to become part of the rule. Um and I think, yeah, seeing that kind. of deviation when you are you are the. deviation, that I think is a is a. problem. >> Let's talk about narcissism. >> Okay. >> So, what is the clearest sign that. you're dealing with somebody that has. the dark personality. of narcissism? >> Okay. Got another visual. Narcissism. All right. Um.

So, here we've got like a someone. looking into a broken mirror, and you. see kind of like the cracks in the. facade here. And I think essentially. what this is kind of pointing out is. that what you see is not really what you. get. Actually, this signifies to me kind. of like a vulnerable type of narcissism, where their ego is actually really. easily shattered. Um grandiose. narcissism is kind of the opposite of. that, where their ego like cannot be. deflated,

>> [laughter]. >> um even though they're getting kind of. feedback that it should be. Um but at. the core of both of those kinds of. narcissism. is um um entitlement. >> Mhm. >> and exploitation of other people in. order to get that uh what they think. they deserve, which is more than most. other people. Um. and I think it's really helpful to try. to identify those things early if you. can because that those traits. look really attractive early on and they.

are the exact same traits that lead to. problems a little bit later. So, um. there's this one study that I love um. Delroy Paulhus at UBC. He did this study. of uh groups of students and they were. working together over the course of a. term, right? And week one, they all, you. know, got together in their new groups. and they made these little like first. impressions of people and it turns out. that the people who were the most.

narcissistic in those groups were. originally seen as like really. agreeable, really well-adjusted and very. competent. >> Really? That was the first impression? >> Yeah. And it. >> Agreeable? >> Mhm. And then. week seven, he asked them to do those. same ratings again. Those same people were seen as arrogant. braggarts. uh who were actually really hostile and. who overestimated their abilities, right? So, it's kind of like there's. this sheen at the start and it quickly.

wears off when you start to realize like. the person they are forward. is not the person they actually are. So, there tends to be a lot of. self-enhancement. Um some early cues, you know, might be. um. having lots of confidence, you know, coming across very confident in your. your kind of verbal and nonverbal. presentation, the way you carry. yourself. Uh they tend to be very. concerned about their physical.

appearance, so putting they tend to be. quite stylish and like put a lot of. effort into their appearance. And so it. can be really hard to kind of pull apart. what is. the real person and what is like the, you know, the impression that they're. trying to make. Um and sometimes it's. like time that is going to reveal that. >> I you know, you said that there were. kind of the two camps of the. narcissistic personalities. One being.

grandiose, which I think we all have. somebody in mind you can think of that. represents that. >> Yeah. >> Whether it's in your family or at work. or, you know, in public here in the. United States. Um but vulnerable. >> Yeah. >> Because I think these can be sneakier. >> Mhm. >> And like you don't realize that's what. you're dealing with. And so can you talk. a little bit about how. the vulnerable narcissistic personality. shows up. Like what are we looking for? Because I think this one's really.

sneaky. >> Yeah. So with respect to vulnerable. narcissism, like the the entitlement and. the willingness to exploit other people. is still involved, just like for. grandiose. >> Yep. >> uh narcissism, but they tend to have a. real fragility to their ego. Like. they're they're almost looking for, you. know, your admiration to prop up. something that's like not there, right? >> Mhm. >> Um and they tend to be very defensive. and somewhat avoidant. And I think.

um. learning a little bit about what. triggers these two different kind of. types of narcissists is actually pretty. revealing. So the the grandiose type. tends to get very angry when there's. like a failure because they they are. supposed to be incredible and amazing. and they're going to be pissed whenever, you know, they don't get that job, they. don't get the promotion, they don't get, you know, the raise at work. Whereas for. a vulnerable narcissist, because they're.

kind of getting that ego boost from. other people, it's rejection that really. upsets them. Um and so, if, you know, they get broken up with, uh you know, or. you know, that someone just doesn't. treat them very nicely, you know, they. tend to really react strongly to that. kind of thing. >> How can this, uh show up in a family, especially in the vulnerable narcissist? Like is this the person that flies off. the handle because you can't make it.

home this weekend? Is this the person. that's just constantly giving you the. guilt trip if you're not doing. everything you wanted them to do because. meeting expectations. If you don't do it, it's the rejection. piece. Right. Like how does this show up. in a family? >> Yeah, so I mean, they're going to have. those same traits, right? So, the. entitlement, so like whatever they want. the family to do. >> After everything I've done for you. >> Yes, exactly. Very willing to manipulate. people, so using guilt trip, whatever it.

would be that would like work to kind of. push you around. >> Mhm. >> Um and in addition to that, it's like. rejection. So, yeah, if you don't come. to the birthday party, if you don't make. it uh to the retirement party or. whatever, you don't come home for. Christmas, that is going to really, you. know, set someone with vulnerable. narcissism off. Whereas someone who's. more grandiose narcissism, like they'd. kind of. throw it off their shoulder, right? So, like they're. They're there, they're big, whatever.

Yeah, exactly. >> Got you. Okay, that's so interesting. What about the fourth dark personality, which is sadism? What is sadism? >> Sadism is essentially having an appetite. for cruelty. >> Ooh. Oh. >> Yeah. >> Oh, I don't Oh, really? >> Yeah. So, it's centered around finding. enjoyment in the pain of other people. >> Enjoyment? >> Mhm. >> Oh. Like, oh god. That's awful. >> Yeah. Oh. Yeah, so we've got a depiction.

of this one, too. >> Oh. >> Sadism. Um okay. So, here we've got someone who is, you. know, taking some control over the situation. I might actually like. add like little knives or something. >> gosh, so this is a visual that Dr. Ten. Brink is holding. If you're listening, there's a person that's big above and. then a little person that's almost like. on puppet strings being manipulated, but. you're saying they take pleasure in. hurting other people. And so, if you.

were to add anything, you would. literally stab the person that's at the. end of the Oh my that's terrible. >> they get um enjoyment out of pain And. what's interest so interesting about. your reaction is like, yeah, there are. those like very extreme versions of. this. Like, when I was an undergrad, I. was coding these uh descriptions of. sexual homicides, and I was coding them. for evidence of gratuitous violence and. sadistic violence. And those are obviously these like very. extreme examples, right? But there's.

much There's more like everyday. versions. So, things like um enjoying. really violent sports. Uh maybe, you know, um enjoying your you. know, you're scrolling through Instagram. or something and you see a video of a a. kid getting hit with a soccer ball and. you find that funny. Like little kind of. everyday sadism is what it's called. And. I think we think of these people as. like, you know, monsters, right? But. there is. we can probably all think of a time when.

we felt something sort of adjacent. So, let let me try this try this on you. So, imagine that you are thinking about um. you know, someone really powerful, maybe. a politician, a CEO of some company that. you dislike. And they are walking across. the stage to give a speech, and they. trip and they fall. Like, how do you. react? Um. you know, I guess I might be like, "You deserve. that.". >> Yeah, there might be like a little. little smirk might come on your face.

just for a second. >> And you know what I would call it? Karma. >> Mhm. >> She's a and she just came for you. because you didn't deserve that, you. know, title. And so, I I can see what. you mean by like that's a example of. like a micro. >> Yeah. >> sadism. >> So, this is um the Germans have a great. word for this. It's Schadenfreude. And. it is taking joy in the misfortune of. someone else. And often we experience. this when someone who's in like a. position of power and they kind of fall. or falter or something like that. And.

so, that's. yeah, kind of like an everyday sadism. kind of experience. >> Well, let me let me tease that a little. bit more cuz I was very intrigued when. you said a micro everyday form of sadism. is watching very violent sports. >> Mhm. >> Or maybe even watching extremely violent. horror movies. >> Yeah. >> And really seeing that as a form of. entertainment that you like. >> Mhm. >> And. um. they when I think about the example of.

somebody that you don't like. tripping and you taking a small amount. of like. there's a part of me that feels like. it's. justice. >> Mhm. >> You know what I'm saying? For somebody. who doesn't deserve the power that they. have. >> Uh-huh. >> How do you know the difference between. something that might feel. like they're getting what's due versus. taking. pleasure in seeing someone else suffer, if that makes sense? Or is it is the. same thing and I'm just putting a better. label on it?

>> I think what it would be is just kind of. like different places on that spectrum. >> Got it. >> Right? So, like um someone who scores. really high on sadism might be like, "Oh, yeah, I love, you know, violent. sports. I love violent video games. because I enjoy seeing, you know, the. heads blow off the characters or. whatever. And I also love um you know, I. also love trolling people online because. it gives me kind of a thrill to just. like. bring, you know, bring people down a. notch. Yeah, exactly. And so they might. also feel Schadenfreude, right? But they.

would be like, yes, yes, yes to like all. of these different items that we present. to them and you would be like, yeah, a. little bit on one item, right? So you. would be pretty low on that spectrum and. they would be pretty high. >> So when there's a pile-on online and. people are just tearing somebody down, those are examples of micro-sadism? >> Yeah, so um there's great research. showing that people who score higher in. sadism also tend to be more likely to. engage in online trolling. And it's actually a like a small.

proportion of the internet. It feels. like a lot of the internet, right? But. it's actually a pretty small proportion. of people. Why. should micro-sadism. somebody in your life that is really. into violent sports or love seeing uh. heads blown off on video games, should. that concern you? I think as with all of these things, I. kind of file them away and I'm like, I'm going to hold onto that red flag and. I'm going to think about how I need to.

interact with you and whether this. personality trait is going to get in the. way of that. If you've got like, I don't know, a. brother or a cousin who's like, "I love. UFC.". I mean, this is not necessarily like a. throw them away kind of situation, right? It's like. um he might, you know, score relatively. low on all of the other aspects of. sadism and not a problem whatsoever. It. might be part of a personality pattern. that is a much bigger problem.

>> Got you. >> And so you're looking for evidence of. this like over time and across contexts. It's not just in sports, right? It's not. just in. um. conversations with you. It's also at. work. It's also, you know, at home with. the his own family. >> So, Dr. Ten Brink, what are the signs. that someone is being terrible. just temporarily versus. they truly have dark personality traits?

>> So, if you're just coming into the. situation at that moment, it's going to. be very difficult to discern. What you really need is time. >> Okay. >> Because. someone who is, you know, has high. levels of these dark traits are that way. consistently across time and context. Whereas someone who, you know, is. stressed, is tired, is hungry, etc. and. they do something callous, they do. something cruel,

that is a deviation from their normal. pattern of behavior. So, having like a. bigger scope of information about this. person is going to help you to see. whether that's like, that tracks, or. more like, oh, that was a weird thing. that they just did. >> You know, Dr. Ten Brink, you say that. within 10 seconds, even of meeting. somebody, you can spot a dark. personality trait. What are you looking. for? >> Okay. So, bit of a good news, bad news situation. here is that good news, people with very.

little training can. detect with some kernel of truth the. extent to which someone has psychopathic. personality traits or not to with just. like 5 seconds. >> 5 seconds? >> 5 seconds of their behavior. It's not perfect, and it might need to. be updated over time, but but let's talk. about this research. So, this is work. done by Scott Lilienfeld and his. colleagues, and he had uh videos of men. who were incarcerated. They were. actually um doing the semi-structured.

interview with a psychologist that was. part of a psychopathy assessment. And so. he had, you know, trained psychologists. who were doing this long interview and. like criminal case review to try to. assess. these personality traits. And then he. took. 5-second or like 10-second clips of this. interview and showed them to people who. just had, you know, a little definition. of what psychopathy was. Kind of like we. did earlier in this episode. >> a refresher, >> Mhm.

>> psychopathy. is when you are manipulative and. callous, but you also are a rule breaker. and you're an impulse and you're. impulsive. Is that right? >> right. Okay, got you. >> So um gave completely untrained people. these little definition that you just. gave and. 5 seconds of their behavior and said, you know, where do you think they fall. on this kind of spectrum of psychopathy? And the ratings that these untrained.

people gave were reasonably correlated. with like the trained psychologist who. had the benefit all of like a much. longer interview and this criminal case. file review. >> Okay. >> So we're like. what are they looking at, right? So um. my colleagues and I we reached out to us. Scott and we're like, can we get these. videos? We want to code. We want to know. what people are looking at. And what we. found was that. the people with high levels of.

psychopathy were saying really hostile. things and smiling broadly. We call it a. Duchenne smile with the you know, you. get those little. um crinkles around your eyes that go. along with the upturned lips. They were. like. >> and I'm like, okay, yeah. Sounds like. [laughter] somebody would smile as. they're saying something really cruel. >> Yes. Yeah, exactly. So we're getting. this like extreme kind of discordance. between the things they're saying and. the way that they're expressing it. And. people kind of naturally were like,

that's weird. I think that's associated. with psychopathy. And that was a. reasonably useful cue in this case. Um there are other things that that you. can look for, too. So, um high psychopathy folks are more. likely to interrupt you in conversation, but refuse to be interrupted themselves. Um they ignore those personal and. professional boundaries. They might be. kind of like oddly calm. So, like. they're not showing like guilt or shame.

whenever you would expect that to be the. case, which um they have an air of moral. superiority about them. They might be. unusually angry. Um and they might get. frustrated when they can't bait you into. an argument. Like if you don't take the. bait, they're like they're looking for. that hostility. Um and if you don't give. it to them, they can get frustrated. So, like. None of these are a Pinocchio's nose, right? They're not. um there's no one behavior that's always.

going to be like, all people with high. levels of psychopathy do this all of the. time. Um but if you start seeing this pattern. unfolding, you know, across. multiple interactions, that's when you. can be like, you know, increasingly. confident that that. this personality trait is present. >> Why are people with dark personality. traits so often in leadership and. powerful roles? >> That's a great question, which I've.

spent many many a moon [laughter]. thinking about. I There's a I think a. whole bunch of different reasons. The. first one I think we overlook, which is. just that they want it. Like. when we study narcissism, often we have. people do self-reports. So, they're just. reporting on their own personality. One. of those items is I am a born leader. And you're like, how much do you agree. with that statement? If you're like, yeah, I am a born. leader, then you're probably also.

gunning for that promotion at work. Like. you're going to be more likely to put. yourself forward for um a high-status. position. So that's one thing. Um another is that we tend to be really. blinded by their confidence. Like we. confuse. confidence with competence. And so when people, you know, come. across with like a lot of bravado, they. say they can and they have done all of. these incredible things and they seem. very self-assured, uh we believe it.

And whenever you're talking about people. who tend to be pumping themselves up and. are willing to lie. to in order to get what they want, like. that can be quite misleading. >> What is gaslighting, Dr. Tenbrink, and. what is not gaslighting? >> Yeah, so I think. people throw around like, are you. gaslighting me? Like even when there's. like a little bit of confusion or like. you interpreted a situation a little bit. differently than I did um or, you know,

something doesn't make sense to them. And there's there's like a kernel of. truth in the way that we're using that, but it's it's certainly overused. It's. not just you know, um having a different. perspective on things. It's not just a. disagreement. Um it is a type of psychological and. emotional abuse. that involves someone uh attempting to. make another person feel crazy by. creating this kind of like surreal. environment around them. So it's not. just like.

isolating or intimidating or minimizing. someone, it's trying to make them like not trust. their own mind, their own their. memories, their reactions, their like. experience of the world. And our brains. are essentially like prediction. machines. And so whenever we get feedback from. another person that like all the. predictions that you are making. are wrong, it can be really destabilizing.

And. and I think what's most concerning about. it is when you start to feel like I. can't trust my own mind's interpretation. of events, so I need your. interpretation. And that can create this real sense of. dependence on another person and and. isolation from other people. Um. So there I mean compared to other. types of abuse, we actually have. relatively little research on. gaslighting.

But we do know that people with high. levels of dark personality traits. endorse this kind of behavior in. romantic relationships. Like people were. asked. what do you think about, you know, um. telling someone that, you know, that. didn't actually happen that way or their. reactions are completely outsized or. trying to make them doubt their. experience of the world. And people with. higher levels of all the dark. personality traits that we talked about. today were like, "That seems fine." So.

So. um. that can be, you know, incredibly. destabilizing and difficult to get out. of. >> Can a person with a dark personality. change? >> So. personalities can change. They tend to change very little over. time, especially if people are not. committed to that kind of change. And. people with dark personalities tend not. to be very concerned about changing. themselves. >> Well, if you're callous, manipulative, and hostile,

>> Yeah. >> then why would you change? >> Exactly. It's. They see it as more of this is a you. problem, not a me problem, right? So uh they tend. not to have a whole lot of commitment. uh, to therapy. Now, the research that. we do have say on psychopathy in. particular suggests that if people will. stay in therapy for like multiple. sessions, um, they can reduce it's almost like a harm. reduction in their behavior. So, most of.

this research is with incarcerated men. >> Mhm. >> And the outcome that we're looking at is. um, recidivism. So, likelihood that they. will commit another offense when they. get released. And the guys who stick. with treatment longer are less likely to. engage in recidivism and come back to. prison. So, that like that's. amazing. That's an improvement. They. do not become dramatically different. people. Like they don't become, you. know, the most kind and honest person. We're not looking at a personality 180.

here. Um, but you can get reduction in in some. of perhaps the more problematic. >> Well, the reason why I asked you that is. because um, I remember Dr. Ramani Durvasula who. specializes in narcissistic personality. disorders once said something to me. that changed the way that I forever. deal with a person in my life who. clearly has all the traits. >> Mhm. >> Um, and what she basically said is the.

single thing. that is creating. so much pain and frustration when you're. dealing with somebody once you recognize. these dark traits is your belief and. hope. >> Mhm. >> that the other person will change. >> Yeah. >> And holding out hope for a fantasy. of what might happen if you twist. yourself in knots or you stay for 10. more years or you just lower your voice. or you. bake more cupcakes or have more sex or. show up at Christmas that that hope for.

the fantasy. >> Yeah. >> keeps you from recognizing the reality. of what you're dealing with. >> Yeah. >> Do you have any thoughts on sort of that. perspective? >> I mean, I think she's totally right is. that. like. my commitment to someone else changing. really doesn't have anything to do with. their commitment or ability to change. and so um you know. someone's personality is as we've been. talking about their consistent way of.

thinking, feeling, and behaving. Not how. you feel about it. That's not part of. the definition. So like your reaction to. their personality. >> or wish. >> Yeah, or wish. >> dream. >> it's not part of it. It's not relevant. and but it hurts whenever you are like. I'm doing all of the things that I can. possibly do to. um to change you. Um I think there are. ways that we can approach interactions. with people with dark personalities to. make them a little smoother. To like.

make it just makes it like less likely. that this interaction isn't going to. ruin my whole day. It's not going to. change their personality, but it's going. to just like okay, we can reduce the. stress like day-to-day interaction. interaction. >> Okay. So let's take an example. So. you know, as you've been listening to. Dr. Ten Brink, I bet you're imagining. somebody. >> Mhm. >> that you have to deal with whether. they're in your family or they're. somebody that you see at work or they're. in your friend group. Maybe it's a. neighbor. >> Mhm.

>> who is particularly difficult and. hostile to deal with or maybe it's your. ex. Like a lot of people have situations. with exes especially when there's. custody issues. >> Yeah. >> that have a lot of dark personality. stuff coming up. So when you recognize. that you're dealing with somebody with. these traits and you also recognize the. truth. that you have no control over them. changing. but when you recognize the situation you.

could maybe change how you approach a. situation to reduce its impact on you. >> Yeah. Um. I would love for you to speak directly. to the person who's listening because. you have taught us so much today. And really helped us to see both that. this is on a continuum, that there's only certain things you can. control, which is how you're going to. show up. And that there are things to do.

here, one of them not being that the. other person's changing. [laughter]. Um if the person listening takes just. one action. after hearing everything that you've. taught us, what do you think the most. important thing to do after listening to. this is? >> I think it's to slow down. Because personality is a pattern. We. keep talking about this over and over. again. With and it's a it's a pattern. that as a spouse or as a friend or a. co-worker, you don't have a whole lot of. ability to change, right? So.

take some time to get to know someone. before you commit in whatever ways you. need to commit to that relationship. I. think we're all looking for like this. magic bullet, this like one behavior I. can see and you can be like you're in. and you're out, right? >> Yeah. >> Um but that's kind of like trying to see. an entire puzzle when you're just. holding one piece in your hand. Um and. so I think in addition to slowing down, don't do it alone. Like we know that we. are better at detecting lies, at.

discerning people's personalities, um and at managing relationships when we. do it with other people that we trust. and we know. Um. and maintaining that supportive social. network is just so important. Like. you're going to need them to identify. the bad apple, you're going to need them. if you got to get out of a situation. with a bad apple. And so um you know, they're going to help you escape if you. decide to leave and they're going to. help you muddle through it if you decide. to stay, and so like staying connected. to other people, I think is so.

important. >> Dr. Ten Brink, what are your parting. words? >> So, I think it's important to end this. conversation by like putting it into. context, right? So, about 1% of the general population would. meet the clinical criteria for. psychopathy. About 10% of the population. on average would like agree with the. self-report statements that we use to. measure dark personality traits, and. that sounds like a lot, Mel. It does. But, it's so important to flip that.

statistic around. That means nine out of. 10 people are not uh callous, and. manipulative, and impulsive, and. antisocial. They are honest, and they. are kind, and they are helpful. And if. you take the time to get to know people, um. I bet you'll be surprised at how many. good people there are out there. There's. such a lack of trust in society right. now, and. I think some of it is is really. misplaced. So, I hope people don't let.

this malevolent few that can have such a. huge negative impact on our lives keep. us from enjoying a life with all the. benevolent, amazing people out there. >> Oh, Dr. Ten Brink, I'm so happy you. ended there. because you're right. After you hear all. this, you start to just feel like you're. in a dark cave surrounded by dark. personalities. The bigger zoom out is that it's. probably one person. It's probably one person that has been. causing the massive amount of stress in. your life.

>> Yeah. >> And I really hope that as you've been. listening, you take to heart what Dr. Ten Brink has. taught us, and understand that when you spot these. traits, okay, you now recognize what you're dealing. with. And you got to assume this. person's not changing, and if if going. to choose to continue to be around them, you can be smarter. about how you're showing up and you can. think about what motivates a dark. personality,

right? >> Yeah. >> And just get very strategic about the. way you deal with this person. >> Yeah, it can feel like, you know, it's a. dark personality's world and we're just. living in it, but if we can learn how to. identify those people and like either. avoid or approach those interactions a. little more strategically, it means that we can dramatically reduce. the amount of stress and pain that we. feel throughout our lives by just. learning how to deal with like one. person a little bit more effectively. >> Well, we all have that one person that's.

causing 90% of the stress, so I. appreciate that you walked us through. all of this in depth and really. explained it so we can see what's just. normal stress and immaturity and what's. really something that you need to. protect yourself from. So, Dr. Ten. Brinke, thank you, thank you, thank you. >> Thank you, Mel. >> And thank you. Thank you for making the. time to listen to this. And one more. thing, in case no one else tells you. today, as your friend, I wanted to tell.

you that I love you and I believe in you. and I believe in your ability to create. a better life and. I think one of the things that helps you. create a better life is recognizing the. truth of what and who you're dealing. with, taking a step back. Remember, Dr. Ten Brinke said, "Pause, assess, and then be strategic about how you move. forward." Because when you start being. more strategic about how you. relate to other people, I promise you, your life is going to get a whole lot. better. So, go do it. All righty, I will.

see you in the very next episode. I'll. be waiting to welcome you in the moment. you hit play. Thank you for watching all the way to. the end here on YouTube. And if you're. asking yourself, "Okay, what should I. watch next?" You're going to love this. video and I'll welcome you in the moment. you hit play. >> Mhm.