Stop Wasting Your Time: How to Deal With People Who Won’t Change & What to Do Instead

Today on [music] the Mel Robbins. podcast, how to deal with people who. won't change with NYU Stern School of. Business professor Dr. Dolly Choo. She'll teach you how to stop wasting. your energy and do this instead. Please help me welcome Dr. Dolly Chug to. the Mel Robbins podcast. >> I'm so thrilled to be here, Mel. Thank. you for having me. >> I'm thrilled that you're here, too. And. I know that this topic is going to.

resonate with the person who's listening. right now and it's going to be. incredibly helpful. Could you start Dr. Choo by telling the person who's here. with us what could change about their. life and their relationships if they. take everything to heart that you're. about to teach us about dealing with the. people in your life that are not. changing? >> You're going to feel lighter. You're going to feel more hopeful. You're going to see a path because.

you're going to have tools that will. help you both when you're trying to make. changes in yourself [snorts] and when. you're trying to make changes in other. people. You're going to realize you're not alone. in those moments, those messy human. moments, and you're going to drop some of the. frustration that you have and the. expectations that you have of other. people. >> I love that. I want to feel more free. I. want to feel lighter. That sounds. fantastic because the people in my life.

drive me crazy. And the other thing is. is I know that I drive the people in my. life crazy, >> right? >> You know, there's that famous quote, when you know better, you do better. Maya Angelou said, >> and I think that's true when you look. backwards at the lessons that you've. learned the hard way. >> But when I think about myself, I will. admit that I often know better. [laughter]. But I don't do better. And your research. >> really sits at the heart of knowing.

better. >> But we don't do better. >> Right? >> Why is it, >> Dr. Choo, that we can know better? We. know we should not be drinking tonight. We know we should go to the gym this. morning. We know that we shouldn't spend. money on that thing that we don't need. because we're supposed to be saving for. somebody. We know we shouldn't snap at. our kids, but we don't do it. There's. two key insights that really help me. from the science of human behavior here.

And I like to think of these insights as. understanding our mind as having. bodyguards. Okay, hold on. Our mind has. bodyguards. >> Our mind has these two big bodyguards. that are keeping out change and keeping. out growth. And here's what those two. bodyguards are all about. I call I call. one of them energy and one of them ego. Energy bodyguard is trying to. preserve my energy. They're trying to. make my life as easy as possible. And.

that means that a lot of what we do is. on autopilot. Let me give you an. example. I'm going to snap my fingers. And in that snap of a fingers, you just had 11 million thoughts. >> Wait, what? right? >> 11 million. >> Yes. There's there's there's a study. that says that there is so much of our. mind on autopilot. Like for example, let's say you had a long day and now. you're heading home. You're driving or.

you're taking a subway or a bus or. you're riding the bike or you're you're. walking and you get home, you walk in. the door and you realize you don't. remember anything about that commute. home. You don't remember red lights or. green lights or did you get a seat on. the bus? You just did it because you've. done it a million times. >> Well, you know what I think is I. literally say to myself, "Oh my god, what just happened? Where was I?". >> Right? But the good news is is that's. your body and your brain doing. everything it should, conserving energy. That's the bodyguard putting you on.

autopilot, letting you do the things you. know how to do without having to think. too hard about it. >> Okay, got it. >> So, I call those little T thoughts, not. capital T thoughts, right? And even. right now, the fact that you and I can. understand each other, that we sort of. know which direction to face, that we. can detect the temperature in the room. and the feeling of our clothes on us, but we're not necessarily big T thinking. about it. So, in that snap of the. fingers, 11 million little tea thoughts.

They say maybe like 40 big T thoughts, actual thoughts, like you're thinking, what should I say next? You know, is. this microphone the correct distance? All those are big tea thoughts on. >> and these are all happening. simultaneously and I'm not even really. aware of it. >> We're not even aware of it because. that's the brilliance of being a human. being is that we are able to do that and. that's because we have this mental. bodyguard that's protecting our energy. and some people refer to it as our. unconscious mind is doing a lot of the. work. So when we talk about if we go.

back to the question of you know why. when I know something don't I do it. >> Yes. Sometimes knowing is talking about. those capital T thoughts, right? The 40, not the 11 million. Okay? But there's. still a whole lot going on in our. unconscious mind, in our habits, in our. reflexes that are going to keep us in a. space that isn't closing that gap. between knowing and doing. >> Okay? >> So, that's one thing. >> Energy. >> Energy. Yes. >> There's a second bodyguard. And this.

one's even bigger. This bodyguard is trying to protect, call it our ego, call it our self, call. it our identity. It's whatever it is. that makes us feel like the person we. mean to be. There's a study that looked. at how much we value having affirmation, having sort of validation of these. identities we care about, whatever they. are, more than your favorite food, more.

than time with a friend, more than your. favorite sex act. We really, really like. to protect our identity and our ego, whatever that means. >> So, can you give me an example? Let's. say that I consider myself like some an. identity I care about is being. considered kind and warm. That's that's. how I define being a good person. And I. um am walking around my neighborhood one. day. It's beautiful out and I think, you. know what, let me take this work call.

It's, you know, audio only. Let me just. put the little AirPod in. I'm working. from home today. And do this call while. I'm walking. It's an important work. call. I'm listening intently. I. unknowingly. blow off a neighbor. I'm in my work. call. My little AirPods tucked in my. ear. They probably don't see it. They. wave. And I hear later that they. reported that I blew them off to someone. else. They tell other neighbors that. there she is being a bit standoffish.

>> Yep. >> That bothers me a lot. A lot. Now, there. are other people whose identity isn't as. tied up in being seen as kind and warm. and friendly and that kind of neighbor. that says hello to everybody. They may. not care, but for me, that really. bothers me. So, we've got these two. bodyguards that are going to always want. to push away anything that suggests. changing what we're doing, >> okay? >> Or growing into being someone else if it.

threatens our energy or our ego in the. moment. So you just explained to me why. the people that I love who I'm worried. about don't take better care of. themselves. >> Okay. >> So for example, it takes a lot of. energy. >> Yeah. >> To lift weights, to eat healthy, >> to go for a walk when especially when. you haven't, right? >> And if your ego and something that you. value is I'm in control of me. Nobody. tells me what to do.

>> Yes. my desire for you to now lift. weights because your doctor said so, or. to start walking because I think it's. important for you to prevent dementia or. for you to eat healthy because I'm. worried about the weight you're putting. on. >> I'm now threatening one of your core. values, which is I'm my own person, don't tell me what to do. >> Wow, you just nailed it. And that's. that's called agency. It's a it's a. fundamental human need that I'm my own. person, don't tell me what to do. >> Now, can you do that to yourself? Cuz I. often feel like I'm such a whether you.

call it control freak or rebel. >> Yeah. >> That I even rebel against my own. >> attempts to make [laughter] myself. >> Yeah. >> You know, like like you know what I'm. saying? Like nobody I'm the world's. worst employee because I hate being told. what to do. >> unless I understand why I need to do it. And even when I try to tell myself what. to do, >> I notice I negotiate with myself and. push back. And I think you just.

explained why. >> I think that's right. I think that's. right. >> It's the bodyguard of the ego. Nobody. tells Mel Robbins what to do. Not even. Mel Robbins. >> Can you show me, Dr. Choo, this gap. between knowing better but not doing. better? >> All right, Mel. I'm gonna ask for your. help with this. I'm going to pull out a little prop. You. ready? >> Okay. Got it. >> Okay. All right. So, what I'm going to. show you here is this poster board has.

uh words written in different color. fonts. You might notice that there's. red, there's orange, there's green, pink, blue, and we've got about 15. words. And what I want you to do is I'm. going to point to a word and you just. tell me what color it's in. >> Okay. >> All right, Mel. You got it. Go. Red, orange. I'm just doing color, right? Green, pink, blue, >> green, blue, red, yellow, green. >> Crushing it. >> Blue, yellow, pink, green, orange. So,

now here's what I want to point out to. the person listening. >> The word is the same as the color. So, she's pointing to a the first word, the. word is red, but it's also red. Yeah. >> When you point it to the second, the. word is orange, and the color of the. word is also orange. Okay. Now, what's. happening? I think you're catching on. here because I now like you I'm flipping. the chart and. >> now let me just tell the person. listening every word. >> is a color. >> but the actual color that the word is.

written in is different from the word. So she's about to point to the word. green but it's actually printed in the. color orange. >> Exactly. And I want to point out before. you do it, Mel, that right now what you. just did was you were able to narrate to. me exactly what we're doing. So that's. the knowing. >> We talked about the different people. know. >> Okay. >> And and do so we you just you know what. we're doing. >> Yes. >> Let's see if you can do it. >> Okay. Uh this is like a brain scram.

>> Oh, it's all right. >> Wait, am I reading the word or telling. you the color? >> You're you're asking my mind to do two. different things. >> No, you can do it. Try. >> Wait, I'm telling you the color. >> Telling me the color. >> of the word. >> The the color of the font. >> Is orange the right answer? >> Yes. >> Oh god. Even though the word is green. Okay. >> Red. >> Good. >> Pink. >> Yes. >> Uh, yellow. Oh. Uh, blue. >> Orange.

Blue. Red. >> Yes. >> Green. Orange. >> Yes. Pink. >> Yes. >> Green, blue, yellow, red. Okay. My brain. all of a sudden went like it got it by. the last column. Right. >> I was not faking that by the way. >> So Mel, what you just did is called the. Stroop test. >> Stroop. Like strep and poop as one. thing. Stroop. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's a good way to. remember it. >> And why did you show us that and what. does it have to do with change?

>> What you were trying to do is take two. things that happened really quickly for. you. One of them is detecting color and. one of them is reading. So those two. effortless activities were were no. longer effortless because they. conflicted with each other. They. contradicted each other. So what I asked. you to do in that moment was unlearn. reading. >> Whoa. And what you experience. when being asked to do something that. you have to unlearn. Mhm.

>> And I bet as you were watching on. YouTube, you felt the same thing is I. felt this internal friction and. resistance. >> Exactly. >> And. that's always there. whenever I have to do something that. I've either never done before or I don't. want to. Whether it's getting off the. couch. >> or putting the phone down. >> That's right. >> Or. trying something I've never tried. before. I feel that same. >> That's right. Because that's what. unlearning feels like. That's what.

change feels like. That's what growth. feels like. Unlearning is a two-step. process cuz first I've got to let go of. the thing I already know how to do and. then I've got to learn the new thing. And so when we're asking other people to. change, I'm not saying we shouldn't ask. for that and that we shouldn't hold. people accountable, especially if their. actions are hurting us. Absolutely. But. the empathy that we can have for what. we're asking of them is going to go a.

long way in that moment. >> because we know how hard it is for us to. change, but we just assume other people. can do it like that. >> Totally. >> And that if they don't do it like that, they're a jerk. >> We want grace for our own mistakes and. learning curve and we want. accountability for everyone else's. >> My god, it's so I'm so guilty of that. Okay, I'm going to put this visual away. >> Super cool. Thank you for bringing that. >> Absolutely. >> So, what is the biggest mistake.

that you make when you know what you. should be doing, but you're still not. doing it? That we forget that you can't. learn from a mistake you're still. defending. Oh, wait. What do you mean by that? that. we get in a space of trying to prove. ourselves rather than trying to improve. ourselves. Hold on. Did you hear that? She said we.

get into a space where we try to prove. ourselves instead of trying to improve. ourselves. >> Right. Oh my gosh, I do that. I can think of a million examples where. I got very defensive. >> Me too. >> Proving why this is too hard or why I. couldn't follow through tonight or why. >> Me too. >> We get into a space of proving ourselves. instead of trying to improve ourselves. >> And by the way, Mel, the people we're.

trying to prove ourselves to are. sometimes other people and defending, but sometimes it's ourselves. It's why. didn't I get that right? Why didn't I. know how to do that? Why am I so bad at. this? Why can't I be as good as so and. so at it? Why isn't my life like other. persons? >> How do you get out of that trap? >> One thing I like to say is that when I. say I study the psychology of good. people, it's a little bit of uh gotcha.

because my work focuses on helping. people let go of being good people. whatever that means to them, going to. the gym, being nice to neighbors, whatever it is, that you need to let go. of it in order to become better people. What does that mean? Cuz aren't we. supposed to be good people? >> Of course we are. And the problem is, as. soon as we decide we're a good person, we're trying to prove it instead of.

trying to improve towards it. And this. game never ends. Life goes on day after. day throwing new challenges, new. curveballs at us. Even if you thought. you did it today, you crushed it today. Tomorrow's a new day. And so getting in. a space where we realize this is an. ongoing process for oursel and for other. people. We're not trying to prove we've. already figured it out. We're trying to. improve on an ongoing basis. We're not. trying to see oursel as good people.

Especially things that are kind of got. some moral charge to it. Like um are you. nice to your children? Are you a good. parent? Like those things have a lot of. moral charge to them and we feel like we. should just know how to do it and you. should just know how to do it. That's. not good enough. These are skills and. skills require practice and improvement. So good people things we tend to view as. like it's a belief you should have. It's.

a value you should have this this how. can you not know how to do that? How can. you why do you keep interrupting me? If. you cared you wouldn't interrupt me. That's like a you should just know how. to do it. Prove it to me. >> As opposed to you're trying to get. better at it and it's a skill that. you're working on. >> Well, I can see certainly how I hold. this over other people's head. >> Yeah. that if you're not doing the. things that I wish you would do, you're. not a good person. >> But if I turn it on myself first,

because we're going to get to other. people, and I think, okay, >> and I invite you as you're listening to. really think about. what have you held over your own head. >> in judgment where you believe that if. you got to every email today, you're a. good person, >> right? If your. laundry is done, you're a good person. If your house is clean, you're a good. person. If you can both be at work and.

volunteer at the school and take care of. your parents, you're a good person. >> And you're saying that even trying to. quote be a good person by some standard. you've set is a recipe for feeling. miserable about yourself. And you want. us to switch our mindset to no, no, no. I'm improving all the time. I'm learning. all the time. I'm doing the best I can. all the time. Is that kind of more of. the switch? >> That That's exactly it. So, the.

distinction I make is between being a. good person and a goodish person. >> Okay. >> Being a good person is a static. You. either are or you're not. >> Oh, >> a goodish person is someone who's always. trying to get better. So, good person is. trying to prove they're a good person. goodish person is constantly trying to. improve. And so the irony of it is even. though goodish sounds like okay well. you're not as good as good. Goodish is. actually better than good because you're. constantly getting better.

>> and you're giving space for the days. where you blow it. >> and you take ownership for it. >> So there's a difference between giving. space like let's say I say something. that hurts someone. Let's say I use a. term that I don't realize has some um. offensive uh meaning or history to it. and I get called out on it. >> The idea here is not to let myself off. the hook. Well, you know, they're too. sensitive. Yeah, I'm goodish. You know, they were a little too sensitive. I'm. sorry. You know, you were so offended. The idea is for me to say, okay, there's.

something I didn't know. I'm going to. own that. I did some harm there that I. didn't intend to. >> Yeah. >> It's not that I'm a bad person. It's. that I didn't know and now I'm going to. learn, take ownership for that and do. better the next time. So that ownership. piece is really important. It's that I'm. a goodish person who keeps trying to get. better and in doing that I'm going to. improve myself, not just prove myself.

This is such a helpful framework. because it really reveals to me anyway. and probably to you as you're listening. right now how hard you are in yourself. >> Oh my gosh. >> And what impossible standards you hold. yourself to, >> right? >> And I would love to have you, Dr. Would. you just speak directly to the person. who. feels weary when you say constantly. improving? Because there's a nuance to.

what you're saying. You're not saying. you got to be constantly pushing. yourself, constantly improving, constantly going to the gym, constantly. trying to do better, constantly grinding. it out because you're not doing enough. >> Right. >> It's a different. mindset. >> Yeah. And I'd love to have you put that. in context because I'd be willing to bet. that the person that's listening and is. making time to be with us right now is.

probably exhausted. >> Totally. >> They're trying very hard, they end the. day feeling like they didn't do enough. And as you're starting to have this. realization like I am that wow I'm like. probably the hardest person in the world. on myself cuz I'm trying to be a good. person. >> but I've defined this in a way that's. impossible to reach. >> Exactly. >> So I always have at least 10 things at. the end of the day that make me feel. like a bad person because I didn't get. to them. >> Right. >> So how do you want us to really think.

about what that means? going from. proving that you're good. >> and then annihilating yourself at the. end of the I'm bad, I didn't do this and. >> versus this change in your mindset that. you're just constantly trying to. improve. >> Exactly. Well, I think you just nailed. it in what you said. So, what's. exhausting, and we're all so exhausted. for a lot of reasons right now, but. what's particularly exhausting is. feeling like a failure. M it leads to.

what psychologists call learned. helplessness. If you keep trying, keep trying, keep. trying, don't feel like you get. anywhere, eventually you just learn that. you're helpless and you give up. What we're talking about here is yes, something that takes a little bit of. effort, but it's less exhausting because. what you're at the end of the day. evaluating is have I grown, not have I.

succeeded. >> And that's a very different question. It's what have I learned today, not what. did I get right or wrong today. Um, you. know, with, you know, there's a million. things I'm I'm sure I've done wrong as a. parent, but one of the things that I I'm. happy that my husband and I implemented. early on with our kids is when they. would bring home any sort of grade or. test or paper from school, we we would.

try really hard not to react to the. grade. All we would say is, "Do you. understand what you did? Do you do you. understand what you got wrong? Did you. try your best? And I think those are. actually great questions for us all to. ask ourselves at the end of a day. >> Not did I get it right or wrong. It's. what did I learn and did I try my best? What did I learn and did I try my best? That's a beautiful thing. So two.

questions to ask yourself at the end of. every day. What did I learn? And did I. try my best? >> Yeah. One of the things that we hear. from our audience in 194 countries is. one of the things that people struggle. with the most is this sense of I'm not. good enough. >> Right? >> And when I listen to you and what you're. teaching us and that we hold moral. standards over ourselves. >> and we judge ourselves every day. Let's. just be honest as you're listening right.

now. Think about how many times you've. sent a text and then you say, "I'm an. idiot. I shouldn't have written that.". Think about how many times you walk out. of a party and then you judge yourself. for what you're wearing. >> Think about how you leave uh work at the. end of the day and you tell yourself you. didn't do enough and yet you didn't even. give yourself credit for the hundred. emails and Slack messages and Zoom. meetings that you attended, >> right? >> And we're constantly. holding this judgment over ourselves. So, no wonder we don't feel good enough,

right? >> Here's what it's also making me realize. If I'm this judgy. of myself, >> Yeah. >> I'm now realizing how judgy and. opinionated I am of other people. >> Sure. [laughter]. >> And if I have a standard for what Mel. Robbins needs to do every day to be a. good person, >> can you imagine what the list looks like. for what my husband Christopher Robbins.

needs to do to be a good husband? >> Right. Right? >> If the list is impossibly long that I. hold over my own head, >> right? >> Imagine how long that list is for my. husband. >> I mean, >> and my kids. >> and the people I work with, >> and the stranger in front of me. >> So, I mean, the question is, how do we. help others change? >> I love how you said help. >> Yeah. >> Because I'm trying to force, manipulate, >> bribe, whatever it takes. So, one of the.

things we talk about, [laughter] I mean, I'm all for bribery. Um, my my uh my. most effective parenting technique to. date in a couple of decades has been. that I sing to my kids. They. >> How is that effective? >> Because I'm a terrible singer and they. really don't like it. So, if I'm saying. do this, do that. Nobody's listening. I'm not getting anyone's attention. And. then I I I start singing, "You are my. sunshine." I could do it for your.

audience, but you'd lose listeners. >> Let's hear it. >> You are my sunshine. See, it's like, >> "Oh my, now I want to pick up my stuff. and clean my room." I'm like, "Anything, Mom, but stop.". >> And I'll keep going till they do the. thing. >> Oh my god, I love this. >> Isn't that good? >> Why does that work? >> It's a little bit of a pull versus a. push, right? So, a push is saying, "Go. clean your room." A pull is creating the. conditions in which you want to go clean. your room. >> because they want to leave you. >> Yeah. >> So, and this is this is a big this is a. big. >> that feels more like a repel.

>> It might be. Yeah, that's fair. It's. fair. Um but the push versus pull. distinction is a really important one. with um the leadership classes I teach. that. >> when we're trying to influence others. sometimes we do need to push and that. means we're directing them we are. telling them we are forcing them that's. a push technique and we see it in the. workplace we see it in our families it. has its place. we tend to overuse it though and so Um,

pull techniques are more about creating. conditions under which people want to do. it on their own. Okay. >> As you said earlier, where I am the boss. of me. Um, where I might be asking. questions or I might be being a sounding. board for someone else to let them. create their own plan, their own desire. and purpose around the thing that I want. them to do. that almost always.

takes longer always than push. However, if it works, it lasts longer as well. Realistically, what can you do to help someone you love. change? >> Realistically, you can. model change. You can invite change. You can reward change.

But you cannot make anyone change. Let me give an example of what I mean by. model change because I think it's an. important one. There's a a a story that. may or may not be true, but it's sort of. taken on epic fable proportions. Mahatma Gandhi who was one of the um. leaders of the nonviolence movement in. India in the 1940s.

He became seen as the the person that. people would go to for wisdom. And in. this fable that's told about him, he. would receive people who would travel by. foot hundreds of miles to come to him. and ask for his wisdom. And one day this. family came to him with their young. child and said, "Uh, Gandhi G, we have. traveled a long way. We've waited a long. time for our turn, and we need you to.

tell our son who's withering away, he. must eat food and not just sugar. All he. will eat is sugar.". Gandhi listened to them. He heard their. request. He nodded with understanding. And then he said, "Please come back in. two weeks.". Not the response they were looking for. They had traveled a long way. They had. waited a long time. Their son is. withering away. Wait 2 weeks. Why? But.

out of deference, they go back home. Two. weeks later, they make the long journey. They wait the long time for their turn. They arrive at his doorstep. He they say, "Now, please, Gandhi G, will you help us with our son? He's. withering away. is only eating sugar. And Gandhi G said to them, "My son, you must stop eating sugar.". Well, that seems like a bit of a. buzzkill after all of that. And they say.

to him, "Thank you. Thank you. But with. all due respect, why couldn't you say. that two weeks ago?" And he said, "Because two weeks ago, I was still. eating sugar.". So the first step when we realistically. want to help someone change is to think. about what we can do ourselves to model. change. >> Now that doesn't mean I'm not trying to. add to our exhausted plate. I'm just.

trying to say in all the work we're. doing ourselves can we make it visible. to others that we know this is hard and. this is what we are struggling with. So, if your partner's snapping at the kids, you keep telling them, "Stop snapping at. the kids and they keep snapping, they. get defensive." What if you talked about. the struggles you have sometimes with. snapping at the kids? What if you. mentioned that you noticed when you have.

a snack in the car before you come in to. the house, it helps you take a moment? M. what if you talked about the the things. that you've tried that haven't worked. and how embarrassed you are by the fact. that they haven't worked. That's a super helpful uh story and. example. >> The second thing that you said that we. could do is invite change. What does. that look like? What's an example of. inviting change? It's it's inviting.

means creating the conditions under. which someone can do it and not feel. self-conscious about it. Right? So let's. say your partner says uh you know. doesn't say but let's say they are going. to go ahead and like all right so I'm. not supposed to snap at the kids I'm. supposed but even though I'm tired um. maybe what I'll do is try to tell a. story about my day you know or I'll try. to um you know try to be funny and like. try to say something relatable whatever.

and when they do that you know they come. off a little awkward the story goes on. too wrong. They They don't quite get it. The kids are tuning out. If I in that moment say, "What are you. doing?" Like, "This isn't helping.". That's not inviting change because they. just did something. They changed. something. It didn't work, >> but they tried. So, inviting change is. allowing the unlearning to work through.

Oh, so it's recognizing tiny attempts. >> Yes. >> And having grace. >> Yes. >> And. just. kind of really understanding, oh, this. is the unlearning process. Stumbling. through it. >> This is what it looks like. This is what. it feels like. They're not going to all. of a sudden know how not to snap at the. kids. >> And what does reward look like? You said. we could reward change. What does that. look like? >> Absolutely. It's it in ways. Yeah.

Depending on the situation, whether you. do it publicly or privately, it's in. whatever the love language is in your. scenario, telling them you noticed it. You saw it. You appreciate it. You know, if you. think it worked, you know, sincerely. tell them, I think that really worked. You know, I I saw I saw our daughter. light up when you when you gave her that. moment of attention. >> You know, thank you for hearing me. I. know that was hard. you must be tired. >> You know, how do you know when your.

advice. is a complete waste of time? For. example, you have a friend that keeps. dating people that disrespect her. >> They're complaining about it or they're. complain about their partner of eight. years, but they never act on your. advice. >> Right? >> Stop giving advice. >> Stop giving advice. >> Advice. How do you know when it's time. to stop giving advice? >> Yeah. So, I like the weight rule.

>> What's the weight rule? >> Why am I talking? >> Oh, wait. Why am I talking? Right. >> So, I didn't come up with this. I I. don't think we know exactly who came up. with it. It was popularized by Michael. Bungier in his book, The Coaching Habit. The weight rule reminds us that when. we're talking, especially if we're. talking about someone else's problem, we're almost always talking at them. >> Which means that agency, that sense of I.

am my own boss, we're taking it away. So. the first question is, have they even. asked for our advice? Most of us want to. help the people we love solve their. problems. that doesn't necessarily mean. they asked us for help to solve their. problems. And um another great little. rule r rule of thumb I've heard is to. ask people when we feel tempted to solve.

their problems. Um this one probably. won't work in the workplace, but I think. it works really well in families. Do you. want to be heard, hugged, or helped? M. >> and then my addition to that rule is or. high-fived. Heard means they need to vent. In your. example, the partner needs to vent. Hugged means they need to feel loved. Helped, they need my advice and they. want it. They're asking for it. And the.

high-fived piece that I've added is. sometimes. a lot of us want people to notice how. hard we're trying, how exhausted we are, how well we're doing. And especially as. women, we're not really given permission. to just say that's what we need. So, we. kind of keep dropping the breadcrumbs. hoping someone will high-five us. So, heard, hugged, helped her, high five. So, friend is complaining. They're never.

taking my advice. My first question is, did they ever ask for it? The advice. The second, let's say they are asking. for the advice and they're not taking it. to name that. Say, I know you've asked. for my advice. I'm really flattered by. that and I'm always happy to offer it, but I got to ask you a question. When. you ask for my advice, do you mean you. want to be helped or do you want to be. heard? Do you want to be hugged? Are you. in pain? Do you want to be high-fived.

for the fact that you're a great partner. and you're not getting the attention you. want at home? Can you tell me a little. bit more about what you mean by advice? This is so helpful. And I love those. four categories because I think when I'm. in distress or I'm emotionally flooded, I often don't know what I need. >> Yeah. >> And so when somebody asks those four. things, I might even surprise myself. One mistake I've absolutely made is when. somebody comes to me and they're feeling.

down. >> Yeah. >> I make the mistake of trying to. immediately lift them back up. >> Ah, >> and. >> me too. >> Often times when people come to you in a. moment when they're down, they just want. a hug. >> They want a hug. >> They don't want the pep talk. They don't. want to be told to be strong. They don't. want you to fix this. They want to be. reassured and comforted. >> Yeah. And so I also like the heard, hugged, helped, and high-fived because. it stops me. >> Yeah. >> From stepping over a line. >> I like that a lot. Yeah. Absolutely. The.

the um the funny thing is when I've. asked this question, I would I mean I haven't actually. counted, but I think 90% of the time the. answer I receive is heard. Let's talk. about difficult people. Okay. >> So let's talk about somebody who is. always crossing the line. >> Yeah. I have someone in my life that. just has this love of the jab. I don't. know if it's conversational style, but.

I bet as as you're reflecting upon. difficult people in your life that there. are just some people that when they are. there, you're on edge. >> Yeah. >> You're just waiting for it. You're. waiting for the political mark. You're. waiting for the dismiss. you're waiting. for them to say the passive aggressive. thing. >> How do you handle somebody? >> Yeah. >> That is insulting or difficult. >> I think a lot of people can relate to. what you're describing and and sometimes.

it's it's at the level of um you're. dreading the family gathering because. that uncle is is is going to jab and. often jab down, punch down. And by the. way, they want you to take the bait. Now. listen, we do need to be careful because. that person may be doing real harm to. people in the room and to people out in. the world. But what we can do in that. moment with that person is rather than. giving them more oxygen by going back.

and forth. >> Yes. >> We can take some of the oxygen out. How. do you take the oxygen? So he says the. thing you can say ouch. or whoa or my gosh you don't look old. enough to be that old-fashioned. Now. realize what I'm not doing is inviting. an argument. What I am doing is telling. everyone else in the room that's not. okay what we just heard. The only thing. that I've ever said is something that I. once heard Jefferson Fischer say and it.

works like a charm which is did you. actually mean to say that out loud? >> Oh yes. like that too. >> because you are cuz what are they going. to be like? Yes, I mean to sound like a. and like you know like. [laughter]. and no they there's kind of a weird. silence thing that happens and then you. get up and clear the table. >> Yeah. >> But often I just find it's not worth the. response. >> It's another example of. >> you're you're not giving them oxygen, but you're also not endorsing it. >> Let's talk about um dealing with.

somebody who gets really defensive. Okay. >> The kind of person that is so hard to. talk to because the second you try to. give feedback, whether it's at work, >> Yeah. >> or it's to one of your adult siblings, >> right? >> They immediately get defensive. What do. you do in that situation? >> So, this happens all the time. I get. defensive when I get feedback. I've. noticed other people get defensive when. I give them feedback. Sometimes the.

problem isn't the defensiveness, it's. the feedback. >> Oh, >> and so let. >> Yeah, but I want them to be the problem. I don't want my feedback to be the. problem. Doctor, >> trust me, they are the problem. But. let's figure out how we can show them. that they're the problem. >> So feedback is a word that's often um. equated with adjectives. So what do I. mean by adjectives? Uh, I might say to. someone, "Your work isn't polished. enough." Or, "It's not thorough enough.".

Polished and thorough are adjectives. >> There's a lot of ways to understand what. polished means. They might think that. means there's no typos. They might think. that means there's like good animation. in their slides. They might think that. means the way they talk to the customer. They might think that means that they're. wearing certain clothes to work. I. polished could mean a lot of things. And.

so when we give feedback that's in. adjectives, it's really easy for other people to. become defensive because it's easy for. them to argue with it. >> Oh. So how do you give feedback that. somebody can't argue with? >> The feedback that's hard to argue with. and that's actually easier to act on. So. if you're looking for a change that. you'll actually get the change you want. is it focuses on the behavior. So I. might say I've noticed that on the.

slides there are uh inconsistencies. in the the way we refer to the client's. business. On one slide it said they were. in the hospitality business and in the. other slide it said food and beverage. To me, that looks like we haven't gone. through and done a thorough proofread. It's not polished enough. So, do you see. how once I laid out the actual.

behaviors? It's indisputable. I just, you know, it says hospitality here, it. says food and beverage there. It's a. specific behavior. And now I can say. that's what I mean by it's not polished. enough. >> Oh, you know what I I felt as you were. saying that? What's that? I started to. feel defensive. Oh, really? [laughter]. >> Because. >> Say more. [gasps]. >> Because I was realizing I am guilty of. speaking in adjectives, especially with. my family. >> Yeah. >> Because I get emotionally flooded.

>> Yeah. >> When I see particularly. just things that are a mess. >> Yeah. >> And often times when we're giving. feedback, we're already in a state where. we're annoyed, >> right? And. that's how I can see that things could. become very vague. I'm going to give you. an example. >> Let's do it. >> So, I think I did a pretty good job on. this. >> Okay. >> So, we have a a bunk room at our house. in Vermont. And one of the things that I.

love more than anything is that our son. Oakley, who's 21, is home from college. and he has he and his best friends from. high school have a window washing and. odd job business. It's year four. Shout. out Sparkle Boys. And they are employing. like 15 kids. Like they're cranking it. out. And they hang out at our house a. lot. And I freaking love it. >> Okay. >> And. I am very clear with them. I'm not your. maid. >> I'm not your mother. >> You are always welcome here. And the.

fridge is stocked and the door is open. and the arms are open for a hug. But if. you turn me into your maid, >> right, >> or your mom, >> right, >> you are not going to be welcome here. >> Right. I work so hard that I do not. appreciate coming home from a long day. of work and seeing this place looking. like a frat house, >> right? >> And so the other day, and they've. normally been really, really good, but. the other day I came home from being. gone for 8 days. >> and I walked into the bunk room and it.

looked like they had been hazing people. in there. Like I I was just like And we. all know how bunk beds seems like the. most amazing thing in the world until. you have to make a bunk bed. Oh, right. So, normally the old Mel volcano, >> okay, >> would pick up the phone and call Oakley. and be like, and I took a deep breath. and I put them all in text and I said, "Hey guys, just got home.".

>> Yeah. >> And um wanted to share something with. you. I took a photo of the beds and the. towels on the floor and the wet bathing. suits on the couch and I said, "Does. this look like. leaving this in the way you found it? >> Is this representative. of what you're capable of in terms of.

taking care. >> Yeah. of this house in the way that I've. asked right. >> you to do. >> right. >> no no no. we can do better and I said great. because after being gone for 8 days and. working as hard as I do walking in here. and seeing that you've left this for me. >> doesn't feel good. >> right. Mel's amazing. >> I don't know how I like had the.

restraint. >> I can even show you all the photos. Like, cuz once you see it, you're like, "Oh my god, we left the house like that. >> Uh-oh, she was coming home today." Like, if it was like that for seven days, I. don't care. But not on the day. You're. not that dumb, [laughter]. >> right? Like, so what you did was another. important dimension of feedback is to. state your expectation. >> Good feedback at the workplace or at. home includes a few elements. One, people have to know what good looks. like, what the expectation is. So either.

they have to know in advance or if they. didn't know in advance or you didn't you. didn't know in advance how to convey it. Once you saw what it wasn't you were. able to convey it. Then they have to. know what you saw heard the actual. behavior. That was the photo for you. >> The photo was the behavior. So you. stated the expectation, you you gave the. the what you observed in the behavior. and then you described the impact it. had. And from what I heard in your.

example, there was no adjective and you. didn't need one. The adjective is the. least useful part. >> Yes. Let let me give you another. example. Let's say um you are having. trouble. >> getting your family to help. >> Whether it's help with the laundry or. when you walk in the front door, don't. just disrobe and drop it all right at. the entry. There are cubbies, right? >> If you have a mud room for a reason, can. the shoes go in the cubbies? [laughter].

Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, can you can you. >> get the laundry moving so that it. doesn't sit after you do the wash and. then rot in there and stink? Like, can. we get some help? How do you get your. family to help? >> I use this when I'm teaching conflict. resolution and negotiation classes to my. MBA students, and I use this one in my. own family and my marriage. It's the 1. to 10 rule. the question to ask myself.

and ask someone else particularly when. we disagree on something or I'm asking. something of them like in your example. asking them to do certain things around. the home. is on a scale of 1 to 10 how important. is this. >> 10 is the most important. sometimes what I'm asking for when I'm. asking them to hang the things up. the the hanging up is not the 10 it's. the Me feeling heard is the 10.

Me not being expected to do it for them. is the 10. Sometimes maybe the hanging. up is a 10. Maybe there are people. coming over and no way am I going to be. judged cuz you know I am going to be the. one who's judged when someone comes to. our home by this is how I maintain a. home. So maybe it is a 10 in that moment. but it's not always a 10. And I think. sometimes the people around us hear.

everything as a 10 from us. >> And if everything's important, nothing. is. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> So you stop and ask yourself one to 10. >> Yeah. >> And what number am I acting on? >> Exactly. >> No, I hate it. Which language? >> Yeah. And and if you and the person in. your family are having a discussion. about this thing on the ground right now. on a 1 to 10 scale, how important is it. to them that it be dropped on the floor? >> Well, see, I assume it's a one and. that's why I'm offended and it's a 10.

because it's important to me, but it's. not important to them. And if it were. important to them, they would pick it. up. Do you see what I'm saying? And this. gets back to the. >> No, but how important is it to them to. not listen to you? >> Oh, probably a 10. because their value might. be I'm my own person and you don't tell. me what to do. Right? >> I've been at college for two years so. I'm now an adult and. >> this is my space and when I come home. from college and I don't feel like this. is my space anymore and I don't feel. like these are my rules anymore.

needs something to be mine. >> Oh, you're really good. And also, if. I've been working all day in the hot. sun, washing disgusting windows in other. people's houses, and I've had to pull it. together and manage people, I'm freaking. exhausted, and I don't care about your. damn house cuz I'm coming in. Right. >> And I want to relax for a minute. >> Right. Right. >> Oh, wow. I'm arguing about the thing on. the floor, but we're completely missing each other. Maybe. >> cuz the 10 that's important for me is.

hey, I need help around here and the 10. that's important for the person you're. trying to change are completely. different topics. >> I mean, what we do um in my with my. husband and I is if it's if if both of. us are between one and seven, then. whoever's the higher number wins and. like why are we even talking about this? Life is busy. Let's move on. >> And if either of us is an eight, nine or. 10, there's something to be understood. here and discussed. It's worth our time. It's worth my, you know, effort.

>> I love that. How do you know when you're. supporting somebody versus enabling. them? >> Oh gosh. Oh, Mel, this feels like a. dream sequence because I feel like this. is a central growth area of my life and. like. >> adult children. Is that what you're. about to talk about? >> Like, you know, you're the universe is. trolling me and I I've learned so much. from your work on this very issue. So, let me let me step a little bit outside. of my like expertise as a social. psychologist and more into just my lived.

experience of seeing how the science of. growth works. My definition of hell on. earth is watching someone I love suffer. >> and not being able to do anything about. it. Being helpless. I honestly don't think there's any. greater pain in this world. And I I know that a lot of people have. been in this position where in an. instant. we would take their pain. We would take.

their suffering. We would take their. distress, but all we can do is bear witness to it. And that's what feels like hell. Sometimes. what we think is supporting other people. is us trying to deal with that feeling. of hell. >> We're just trying to lower. the pain of it by doing something.

And you know, while it might make us feel slightly. less helpless, it's probably. making things worse. Why does it make it worse if you're. providing the financial support or. you're giving a place to live or you're. doing the things that we want to do. because we're trying I think you're. right to feel like we're doing. everything we can. >> right. >> to support this person but actually that.

soft cushion of support is keeping the. person from hitting the edge m. >> of their experience, >> right? >> And truly having to reckon with the. consequences of the decisions that. they're making. >> and the patterns that they haven't been. unwilling to year to unlearn yet or. haven't been able to. >> Yeah, I think that the way you described.

it is exactly my sense of it as well. I'm also centering my own needs in that. moment. I don't mean to. I love this. person so much. That's why this is. happening. But by me doing the things. that make me feel better, it's a little. harder for me to see what they need. Have you figured out any because I know. this is deeply personal for all of us. >> and nobody can actually tell you when is. the appropriate time to keep doing and.

offering support and paying for things. and stepping in because that's the thing. that makes you feel. >> Mhm. >> like you're doing what you can do and. that's the thing that is the only part. of this that you can control. >> Right. And when is it that you say I. recognize that this person does not want. to change. They are not ready to change. and I am a participant at this point. >> in propping up the dynamic. And the only.

thing I can do now is remove myself from. the dynamic. >> So this person has both the dignity of. their own experience and they also have. to feel the consequences of. >> the way they're moving through life, >> right? It's so personal and I like I don't know. if there's any kind of. >> sliding scale ruler like self-reflection. to be able to really wrestle with. yourself. I think though just.

recognizing that. we know it's hard for us to grow and. then we've talked about having empathy. for how hard it is for others to grow. Sometimes it's hard for us to let others. grow. >> I love that. Um, you and two practices, Dr. Choo, in your classes, you call it. shoutouts and own it. >> Yeah. >> So, what is shout outs and ownit and how. can I and the person listening apply.

this? >> Absolutely. Yeah. So, one of the classes. I teach is about how to be a good boss. And one of the things um in that sort of. leadership type of um class that we talk. a lot about is noticing what people are. doing well and expressing it to them. Now this is leadership. I'm talking. about how to be a good boss in the. workplace, but it applies broadly. We. are leaders in our families. We're. leaders in our communities. We are. leaders in our religious organizations.

And so what we're doing at the end of. this class is asking um for volunteers. to shout out a classmate. Again, it's often things that the things. that they shout out. Uh I really. appreciated when Mel asked that question. because I was thinking it too, but I was. really afraid to ask it. >> Uh and the person who asked the question. may not have thought twice about asking. it or they may have felt a lot of. anxiety about asking it. And now that.

they hear that someone else was also. sitting with that question, they feel. less anxiety. That was that question a. dumb question. >> You know what I'm going to do? I'm going. to take a photo of those bunk beds when. those boys make it and I'm going to put. it in and shout it out. Great job, guys. >> I love it. I love it. And then to own it. is um taking ownership for a way in. which you know you didn't you didn't. kind of get it right that day. And by. get it right, I mean. >> someone might say um listen, I want to. own it. I had my phone out a lot during. class today. I just had trouble being.

engaged and I'm really sorry. And I know. it kind of affects everyone else when. someone takes their phone out. Or I was. late today. My small group had to get. going without me and then spend time. catching me up. I didn't manage my time. right. I'm sorry. >> I love the Own it. >> I love the Own it. And I I have to say. like in class, one thing I was thinking. about this coming semester is we get a. lot more shout outs than onits, which. makes sense. I mean, there's a lot more. good than than not going on, but I think. I need to do more on ONITS myself to. sort of motivate more ownit for my.

students as well, which is another thing. we know about being a good boss is uh we. want to be. >> bringing out the best in others, but. doing it in a way that shows we're. taking accountability for when we're not. at our best. Well, one of the things. that you've taught us is that when it. comes to trying to change other people, >> you can model, you can invite and. reward. And. >> shout outs are really I'm really good at. shout outs. I notice all the things.

going well. >> to a fault. >> Okay. And. if you over compliment people, >> right, >> then you create an inability to hear. criticism. >> or to hear feedback. And so the own it. piece as a parent, >> as a colleague, as a friend, >> owning it where you didn't show up, where you flubbed something, where you.

>> threw your crap in the entry after. yelling at everybody else. >> Yeah. >> Um. to me, that's modeling. >> Yeah. >> Change and accountability. >> I like that a lot. >> I do too. >> I like that a lot. That's one of the. that's a big thing. I'm taking a lot of. things from this conversation, but I am. going to pull that and own it. >> I love it. >> In my life, as a parent, as a friend, and I think we may do shout outs and own. it here in our meetings because I feel.

like the muscle of owning it when things. aren't going well. >> is something we can work on. >> Nice. >> Um, so thank you for that. >> Absolutely. Um, for the person who's. listening, you have poured so much into. us. I mean, when I think about what. you've taught us about the difference. between knowing better and doing better, >> this subtle but serious moment of. needing to unlearn behavior before you. can change it, >> right? >> Oh my gosh, the two questions to end.

every day. the tool after tool after. tool that you gave us from pushing to. pulling to the 1 to 10 rule. There was. just so much here. Um, if the person listening. takes just one action, >> what is the most important thing to do. after you have listened to this episode? Other than sharing it with everybody you. want to change, >> we're going to let Dr. Chuke change him.

I would say I bet everyone in your. audience considers themsself a lifelong. learner. What would it mean to be a. lifelong learner and a lifelong. unlearner? >> Oh, like simply by listening. >> Yeah. >> Today. Yeah. >> And investing the time in yourself. You. learned so much and having that I'm a. lifelong learner. I need to unlearn some. things to continue to grow and to not.

prove anything, >> but as you said, to be improving, >> right, >> the way that I feel about myself and the. way that I approach life and the way. that I connect with other people, >> right? >> Amazing. Dr. Chu, what are your parting. words? [sighs]. >> I would say that hope and energy lies in. growth to just lean into that. There's. all this pressure on us. We're so. exhausted. We're being pulled in every. direction. And sometimes that makes us. feel like.

there's no more to do. I cannot do. anymore. And I promise you that when we. allow ourselves into this space, this. space of growth of improving rather than. proving, we will feel more hope and more. energy. >> You promised at the beginning, Dr. Choo, that we would feel lighter. >> Mhm. and we would feel a little bit more. in control. >> Yeah. >> And I feel that after talking to him. >> You do? >> Yeah. I I want to thank you because I.

learned so much today. >> It was the conversation was not exactly. >> how I thought it would be. Even though. we put a tremendous amount of upfront. >> research in. >> to get to the point to have the. conversation. >> Yes. But what you really did for me. today, and I I bet I'm speaking on. behalf of you as well as you're. listening, is I really reflected. on myself. >> I thought that I was going to come in.

here and get all the tips and tricks to. diffuse the jerks out there and to. manipulate people to change and have. everybody stop draining my energy. And. what I realized is I'm actually draining. my own energy. >> Yeah. >> I'm the one who's holding this. impossible standard over myself. and. then to fulfill my own needs to feel. good, I'm pressuring everybody else. And. there's a very different way you can go. about this. And you made us smarter. about change, the reality of it. And you. also, I think, opened up this window of.

true compassion and empathy. >> by helping us understand the dynamics. And I also appreciate the tactics. >> I love I love your synopsis. Thank you, Mel. This was great. Thank you for being. you. and thank you for having me here. >> Oh my gosh, it's such a pleasure. And. thank you. Thank you for making the time. to listen to this. I hope you found it. as fascinating and as helpful. I hope. you reflected on how hard you are on. yourself. That good goodish balance,

that whole distinction between. constantly trying to prove that you got. it all done and that you're good versus. just. exhale. What if you're just unlearning. and learning and improving? And don't. forget those two incredible questions. I. love those. Did I do my best today? And. what did I learn? You start asking that. And I promise you, you're going to learn. a lot about yourself and you're going to. grow into the person that you are meant. to be. And in case no one else tells you.

as your friend, I wanted to tell you. that I love you and I believe in you and. I believe in your ability to create a. better life. And the tools that Dr. you. taught you today will help you create a. better life and feel better in your. life. I am certain of it. All righty. I'll see you in the next episode. I'll. welcome you in the moment you hit play. All righty. Thank you for watching all. the way to the end here on YouTube. Thank you for sharing this with people. in your life who you're trying to change. or who are really hard on themselves and. need to change the way that they talk to. themselves. There was so much in this. I.

know that your life is going to get. better and so I'm thrilled that you have. this as a resource. All right. You want. to see something next? This is the next. episode of the Mel Robbins Podcast. you're going to love. And I'm going to. welcome you in the moment you [music]. hit play.