Unlock Your Full Potential: How to Stop Holding Yourself Back & Get What You Want

Today on the Mel Robbins podcast, Wharton School of Business professor. [music]. Dr. Adam Grant. >> It is never too late to find your hidden. potential, to reach out to somebody that. you lost contact with, [music] to ask. for a raise or a promotion. So often we. write ourselves off. We write. relationships off. We write. opportunities off because we think we. [music] missed the window and we didn't. He's written six New York Times. bestsellers [music] and today he's here. to help you unlock your hidden. potential.

>> The greatest sign [music] of potential. is not where you start today. It's the. distance you're capable of traveling. tomorrow. Dr. Adam Grant, I am so happy to be with. you in person. You know, I was thinking, okay, now how do I interview a person. whose work is this profound and. important and distill it all down? And I. love the topic and this idea that.

wherever you are in your life, there is. a hidden potential for you to experience. yourself, your work, what's possible. And so that's I think where I want to. start. What could change about my life. if I take to heart everything we're. going to unpack? >> I hope I can help people become more. effective. I think all of my work. centers around the idea that we can be. more effective if we're willing to. change our habits and we're willing to.

question our assumptions. And I think. what kind of effectiveness you're. pursuing is sort of up to you. So you. might have a goal that you're trying to. achieve and you feel like you're running. into a stumbling block. You might have a. connection you're trying to make and you. feel like you're just you're just not. clicking with another person. And really. my work starts with the question of how. do we close that gap between where we. are today and where we would love to be. tomorrow. >> H So what does the word effective mean. to you? Because that that is not the. word that I would have thought you were. going to say. Yes. >> What did you think I was going to say?

>> I guess I didn't know. And so effective, it's an interesting word because. now that you've said it, I think about. all of the places in my day-to-day life. where I drive myself crazy. I waste. time. I am frustrated. I feel. ineffective. And that makes me feel disappointed in. myself or just not enjoying my. day-to-day life. And I hadn't thought.

about the power of the word effective. Here we are. >> Here we are. That if you're wasting. time, if you're frustrated, if you're. beating yourself up, if you feel stuck, if you keep doing the same damn thing. and nothing's changing, that there are. things you're going to teach us today. that will make you more effective with. the time that you have and the people. that are around you. I hope so. And. those unpleasant feelings that you're. describing, those are actually sources. of motivation, right? So, every time you. feel disappointed, that is a master.

class in figuring out how to do a better. job staying focused. Every time you feel. frustrated, that's a tutorial in how to. find a different path to your goals. Every time you feel regret about how you. spent your day, right, that is a lesson. about making better decisions tomorrow. And I think so often what happens is we. feel a negative emotion. We don't like. it. We spend all our time ruminating. about the past when we should be asking. what is the message for tomorrow from.

today's failure. >> Okay, I love this. So, anytime I'm. upset, frustrated, disappointed, that. doesn't mean you've hit a wall. It means. you are getting data from your own life. that either the way you're approaching. something isn't working. And I think the. big message is what you're saying, you. got to find another way. >> Exactly. One of the reasons a lot of. people get stuck is they get too. attached to the path as opposed to. saying, "I've got a goal and I need to. find one of many possible paths there.".

>> You know, interesting that you said the. word path because in your blockbuster. number one New York Times bestseller, hidden potential. I'm going to read to. you from page 14. It's often said that. where there's a will, there's a way. What we overlook is that when people. can't see a path, they stop dreaming of. the destination. What does that mean? >> I've seen this a ton in my students, but. I see it with people of all ages and.

life stages. At some point, they. realize, you know what, my dreams are. just not practical. Um, I had a career. that I was passionate about and I. couldn't figure out how to make a living. doing it. I had a sport that I loved and. I just wasn't talented enough. I had a. hobby that I was pursuing and I was. hoping to turn it into a startup and I. just couldn't figure it out and so I. can't find a way and therefore I lose. the will. >> Can you talk to the person who's. listening who was nodding along as you.

were going through all of those types of. situations that we get stuck in? You. thought life was going to be a certain. way. Now you're divorced. You're a. student that thought you'd get into. medical school. You've gone through your. second round of applications and it. didn't happen. What do those moments. tell you? And what do you want the. person who's in that moment right now to. know? >> There's a really powerful term for that. experience. It was coined and researched. by Barry Stall. It's called escalation. of commitment to a losing course of.

action. Anytime you make an initial. decision or plan, it doesn't work out as. you hoped. But instead of rethinking it, you double down and you say, "If I just. put in more time, more energy, more. effort, then I can turn this around and. prove to the other person that I made. the right call and I'm worth it and also. prove to myself that I did not make a. bad decision and I am not a failure.". And I think when a lot of people hear. about escalation of commitment, they're. thinking about some costs. And that is. part of the equation, right? People have.

a really hard time letting go of what. they've already invested. And what I. would say to that is it's better if we. think about this in the career context. For example, Mel, you're stuck in a. dead-end job. A lot of people don't want. to admit that they wasted the last two. years. I would say it's much better to. recognize quickly that you wasted the. last two years than to waste the next. 20. And the faster you are to recognize that. you're on the wrong path, the sooner you. can start pivoting and moving toward the. right path. But in that moment where you're doubling.

down, you you really don't know it's the wrong. path. So, how do you know that you've. spent and sunk too much time and too. much money and too much effort into. something that's not going to turn out? How do you know? >> I don't think you ever know for sure. >> Okay. >> I think there are three ways though to. try to gauge whether you're at risk of. escalation. >> Okay. So the first way is to set.

yourself conditions in advance. for what would have to happen that would. tell me maybe I should pull the plug. >> Oh. >> So you pre-commit when you take a job. and you say I'm not sure if this is. going to be a good fit for my goals and. values. I'm going to give myself 6. months and I'm not going to worry. daytoday about whether this is right or. wrong. I'm going to give it a chance. And then at the 6 month mark, I'm going. to do a career checkup. The same way. that you would go to the dentist for a. checkup, even if nothing is wrong with. your teeth, you put that reminder in.

your calendar. >> Yeah. >> And 6 months later, you basically. evaluate, has the job met the conditions. that you hoped for when you accepted it. So, I think that's one option. And you. keep yourself honest by making that. initial commitment to say, okay, here's. what I'm looking for and here's when I'm. going to reassess. I think the second. option is you have a friend or a mentor. who's or it might be a partner for that. matter who's really good at being your. challenge network, a sounding board to. say, "Hey, wait a minute. You've reached. a learning plateau or a meaning plateau.

or just a work life balance plateau and. it is time to to question whether this. is something you want to invest in." And. then the third option, and this is my. favorite one, Mel, because it's the. easiest to do. [laughter] Have you ever. noticed that you're better at giving. advice to other people than making your. own choices? >> Dude, I make a living at it. >> I mean, [laughter]. yes. >> If if only you had Mel Robbins to advise. you, right? [laughter]. >> So, psychologists call that Solomon's. paradox. And it comes from the the.

parable of King Solomon, who was, you. know, very wise in advising others, but. made disastrous personal choices. And. that pattern holds for most of us. And. the reason is when we advise others, we. tend to zoom out and look at the big. picture and we'll focus on the two or. three most important factors and really. ignore all of the other details. Whereas. when we make our own choices, we get. stuck in the weeds and we're trying to. compare all the options on 19 different. criteria and we we just end up over. complicating it. And so I think anytime. you're not sure if you're in an.

escalation situation, you should start. giving advice to somebody else who's. either in that trap or imagine that. you're talking to somebody who is and. give them some guidance. And you will. find that the advice you give to others. is usually the advice that you need to. take yourself. >> Oh, that's amazing. The advice you give. to others is the advice you need to take. to yourself. >> Yeah. Cuz you're taking yourself out of. the situation. >> Yes. and looking at it from an outside. perspective. >> Yes. And you could do that with your. job. If my best friend were in the.

situation I'm in at work, what would I. tell them to do? >> Yes. I think there's another layer of. why this is really powerful, which is so. often when we're stuck or we're. uncertain, we seek advice from other. people. But I think the biggest problem. with advice seeking is people generally. tell us what works for them. And it may. or may not apply to us and our situation. and our personality. And it also leaves. us in a passive needy position. Like if. I'm relying on you for advice all the. time, I feel like I can't handle my own.

issues. Whereas if I give advice, I'm. going to start from my own vantage. point. I'm going to start from my own. personality, my own values. And I'm also. then in an active position of having. something to offer that's empowering. It. makes me feel generous. It makes me feel. capable. And so I think in many of those. moments when we're tempted to lean on. other people for advice, we should. actually shift the lens and say, "Okay, let me provide some advice and hope I. can then learn something from what I end. up saying.". >> What are some of the the big factors.

that you've seen that people put too. much weight on the impact of the. decision on others or like count that. too much? >> I think that a lot of overthinking is. actually underthinking. >> Oh, wait. What does that mean? I I feel. for people who overthink, but I worry. about people who underthink. Right? I. would rather see you think too much than. think too little. But I actually think. one becomes the other. And here's what I. mean by that. I think when people. overthink things, what they're really.

doing is they're ruminating about the. same thing over and over. There's. actually a classic study on this by Paul. Nut. So he studies hundreds of. organizational decisions and he wants to. know whether they succeed or fail. and. it turns out about half of the decisions. fail. And then he tries to reverse. engineer what are the differences. between the decisions that worked out. and the ones that didn't. And it turns. out the clearest leading indicator that. you are about to make a dumb decision is. you've only considered two options. Even just having contemplated a third.

possibility raises the probability that. you make a choice that you you feel was. successful on the back end that meets. your goals. And I don't know, Mel, whether that's causal. I don't know. whether considering a third option. actually improves the quality of your. decision-m or whether the kinds of. people who considered three options were. just more thorough decision makers to. begin with. But. >> either way, when somebody is. overthinking something, they're they're. kind of rattling back and forth just. between two choices. >> This or that, this or that, this or. that, this or that.

>> And I think the that's a moment to pause. and say, "What's behind door number. three?". Like I think what rescues a lot of. people from overthinking traps is. saying, "Okay, I have, you know, I've. just been pouring so much into comparing. these two options. If I put a third. possibility on the table, that's. actually going to open up a whole bunch. of new thoughts because I've got to. compare now A and C and B and C, and. that's going to, you know, help me. figure out whether C is worth. considering, but it's also going to. reveal dimensions of A and B that I.

never thought of." I love this because. it's almost like throwing a a ball for a. dog. Like you don't turn to the dog and. be like, "Would you like to throw the. ball?" You throw the ball and now the. dog is chasing it. And so when you said, "Come up with an option C." And maybe. even always make option C ridiculous. Like something that you don't even think. is even possible. >> Yeah. >> But now I'm making my brain go do what. it likes to do, which is problem solve. And you just tricked me into breaking. that this or that.

>> Yeah. A lot of the ruminating we do is. it's tunnel vision. >> Yes. >> And what we need is we need to improve. our peripheral vision. I get so many. questions. Should I stay in my job or. should I quit my job? And my colleagues. Amy Resneski and Jane Dutton say there's. a third option. You don't have to choose. between keeping your job and quitting. your job. You can craft your job. You. can try to tinker on the margins and. say, "What are tasks that I would love. to spend more time on that align with my. passions and my values and my skills? What are interactions I would love to.

have more of? Who are people that I find. energizing? Who I actually am able to. add value to or who bring out the best. in me? Let me try to make that a bigger. part of my job. And a lot of people. don't even consider that possibility. The most rigorous study of its kind, this is thousands of people in Australia. over a 5-year period, looks at what. happens when people are really unhappy. in their jobs. And the people who are. extremely dissatisfied and they quit. actually end up unhappier on average. because the grass was not greener. They.

kind of knew what the warts were in. their existing job and they didn't know. all of the problems that they were going. to face in the new job. They had a rosy. picture of it and then there's kind of a. honeymoon hangover effect that occurs. They also don't realize that transitions. take a toll. And so even people who left. jobs they didn't like and found a better. job, it typically took them at least a. year to find happiness in that better. job. And sometimes they never discovered. it. Now, I'm not saying you should never. quit a bad job. I think if you have a a.

meaningless job, if you have an abusive. boss, you should run for the hills if. you have a chance. But I think if you. have a job that's acceptable, before you. just walk away, it's worth asking, could. I innovate and redesign my own job? Could I become an active architect of. what I do every day? >> Oh, I love that. Um, already you're. opening the door to different. possibilities. And this is one of the. reasons why I love your work because you. always reveal something that a lot of us.

don't see. What do we get wrong about. potential? I think when we judge potential both in. ourselves and others, the biggest. mistake we make is we focus too much on. ability and too little on motivation and. opportunity. >> Okay, what does that even mean? >> I think we tend to judge people by how. good they are at the start, not how good. they're capable of becoming. And the. clearest examples of great potential are. child prodigies. And so we marvel at the. kids who can do a Mozart sonata at four.

or who can memorize the periodic table. or thousands of digits of pi by the time. they're seven. And what we don't realize. is child prodigies rarely grow up to. become adult geniuses. >> Really? >> Yeah. Empirically, it's a it's a. surprisingly small fraction of them who. go on to great things. And my favorite. study on this, it's a classic study by. Benjamin Bloom. He studied worldclass. achievers across domains. He looked at. great musicians, artists, scientists, and athletes. And then he went back to.

their childhoods. And he wanted to know. what was it that set them apart, the. people who would one day go on to. greatness. And it turned out that most. of these super achievers, they were not. the best child in their own neighborhood. when they first took on piano lessons or. when they started painting or sculpting. or when they picked up a tennis racket. Sometimes they weren't even the best in. their own family. And when they did. stand out, it wasn't because they had. extraordinary talent. It was because. they had extraordinary drive. They.

wanted to get better. They loved the. activity. They were excited to practice. when their peers were kind of getting. tired or bored. >> Wow. I mean, that's kind of exciting. because I think we look at how we're. doing right now at something, whether. it's our job or it's trying to learn. guitar or maybe even just our. relationship skills and ability to. connect with people. And we assume this. is just what we're working with here. >> Yeah. >> But your work proves that. No, no, no, no. You may not be able to see it, but.

there is hidden potential in you. And I. know you have this visual that you can. show us. >> I think about Michelangelo looking at a. block of stone and seeing a sculpture. inside of it. And I think that's how we. should look at everyone we meet. I think. that's how we should look at ourselves, too. Because so often we can we can take. a rock like this and inside we can see. that there is the potential for a. diamond in the rough. >> What he's do what he's doing is he's. he's got this ugly just looks like a.

hunk of concrete and you just popped it. open and inside is one of those gorgeous. crystally sparkly things. >> It's a geode, right? And I think people. show up in our lives and we show up to. new challenges and new tasks and we kind. of look like this rock. Yeah. Just a. rock. >> And it's really hard to see the the. possibility for sparkling in inside or. underneath. And that happens because we. judge ourselves by where we start. We. judge other people by where they start.

And we can't forecast how far they can. go. But ultimately, I think the greatest. sign of potential is not where you start. today. It's the distance you're capable. of traveling tomorrow. >> And what would surprise the person. who's listening to this right now about. how far you could go? >> I think a lot of people they they. basically lose self-confidence or they. can't find it in the first place. >> because they say, "Look, I started I'm.

not any good." And Mel, I I lived this. >> I wanted to be a springboard diver. I. was horrible. Horrible. I was the worst. diver in my school. My. >> Why did you want to be a springboard. diver? >> Because I had already been cut from the. basketball team and the soccer team. I. was running out of sports. [laughter]. My mom dragged me to a local pool one. summer and I saw the lifeguard on break. doing flips and twists. He was a a state. finalist diver. And I was mesmerized and. I said, "I have to learn how to do. that." But I was afraid of heights. So,

probably the wrong sport for me. I also. was so inflexible. I couldn't touch my. toes without bending my knees and I was. just not cut out for the sport. In fact, um we have some vintage video and photo. evidence. >> That's you on the diving board. >> Uh this was this was the end of my first. summer learning to dive. This is me at. 13 trying to figure out how to dive and. I was I was bad. You can you can see it. in the video. I was horrible. >> You're basically wearing basketball. shorts from the team that you got cut. from. [laughter].

>> That's so true. That might actually this. could be the team shorts. But [laughter]. you know I I look back at that video and. it's still hard to see that I had any. potential because I was so awful. And. you can see like you can see me shaking. at the end of the board in fear. You can. see me kind of stomping down the board. moving very stiffly like Frankenstein. because I had so little flexibility. You. can see me belly flopping and kind of. landing in a in a ball on my side. because I really didn't have good body.

control. And Mel, I was so lucky to have. a coach, Eric Best, who saw more. potential in me than I saw in myself. And I think that's what great coaches. do. >> I think they see more possibility in us. than we can recognize in ourselves. That's what great mentors do. It's what. great partners do. And Eric said to me. on the first day of triyouts, "I will. never cut a diver who wants to be here.". >> Oh. >> And I will invest as much as you do. >> Wow. It took me from being the worst diver in. my school to being a state finalist. Two.

and a half years later, I qualified for. the Junior Olympic Nationals multiple. times. I made an all-American list and I. got recruited to dive in in college at. the NCAA Division One level. And that. was all Eric just seeing the possibility. for growth in me. And I think one of the. many lessons I took away from that. experience is I judge myself by where I. was when I started. And Eric judged me. by my motivation to learn.

>> He saw even that first day that I didn't. want to quit. I guess I guess I was. annoyingly gritty. He he he joked during. my freshman year that he had to kick me. out of practice every day. Because he. would say, "We're done." And I would. say, "Just one more. Just one more.". Because I was trying to improve. and he. knew that ultimately it was my desire to. grow, not my physical limitations that. were ultimately going to determine how. good I got. That story is so helpful. I. actually get this and I can see the.

scene. I can see what it would look like. to be that coach. And that is the single. greatest name for a coach, Coach Best. Um. because when you describe being a kid. who wanted to be there, being the kid. who was the last to leave, the kid who. said, "Can I just try one more time?". What comes through in that scene, that. little clip from the movie of your life, is the desire to get better.

>> Yeah. And I find that super helpful. because I think what happens a lot or at. least as I reflect on both my experience. personally and my experience of leading. a very big team is you do get caught up. in the dayto-day of ability. >> and you lose sight of the fact that. there are so many people that have a. desire to grow and truly your job as a. coach or a leader is to create the. conditions in which they can.

>> Yeah. Exactly. The people who are. coachable are the ones who we. underestimate. The people who who are. like sponges who are constantly asking. what's something new I could try? What's. something I could do better? And very. often those are the people who are. underestimated, overlooked. They are. underdogs at first, but ultimately they. end up exceeding our expectations and. their own too. Me at 13, I I was this. rock. [laughter].

I I I actually think I was worse than. this rock. Eric saw the potential for me. to shine as a diver. And I, you know, I. I don't think I was ever satisfied with. my diving. Um, even when I got to the. college level, I always felt like I was. falling short of my goals. But I can. look back now and say if I could tell. 13-year-old me how far I was going to. get, that version of me would be really. proud. And I think. um Mel, I think that this is this is. something that a lot of people struggle.

with is they start to make a little. progress, they get better, they achieve. a goal, and then their expectations rise. faster than their accomplishments, and. they never get to fully enjoy their. success, they never savor the progress. they've made. And I think mental time. travel is a great antidote to that. problem. rewind and say, "If a younger. version of you could see where you are. today, how proud would that version of. you be?" And that's a great reminder to. savor your success.

>> Why is savoring your success along the. way a very important driver in unlocking. your full potential? >> Well, otherwise, you just feel like. you're in a rat race or you're living. life on a neverending treadmill. And at. some point you will either burn yourself. out because you're never you're never. really reaping the fruits of your labor. or you will experience bore out or as. the French say le out [laughter]. which is you're just repeating the same. thing over and over again and you're not.

experiencing any joy in the process. >> Oh, you write about this actually in. hidden potential. I'm reading on page 88. and it's the chapter transforming the. daily grind. We're often told that if we want to. develop our skills, we need to push. ourselves through long hours of. monotonous practice. But the best way to. unlock hidden potential isn't to suffer. through the daily grind. It's to. transform the daily grind into a source. of daily joy. It's not a coincidence. that in music, the term for practice is.

play. Play your instrument. How do you. use this savoring and thinking about how. far you've come or the small little. moments that you gain daily as you make. progress as a source of daily joy that. can keep you going? >> Psychologists actually have a term for. this. Instead of deliberate practice, they call it deliberate play. >> Deliberate play. >> Yeah. And it's the process of taking a. skill you want to get better at and. making it fun, turning it into a game.

And I'm not talking about cheesy. gamification where we're going to create. a leaderboard and then all of a sudden. we're competing with other people that. we don't really care about beating or. don't even know. >> It's not true. >> Not that. Not that deliberate play is. it's like what Steph Curry does in. practice where he's trying to improve. his ability to to shoot when he's. exhausted and when he's off balance. And. so he'll do a bunch of drills and his. goal is to maximize the number of shots. he makes while the clock is ticking. and.

then he has to do the same exercise. blindfolded and he's taking on these. challenges and he's trying to beat his. personal best. What makes that so joyful. is you're not competing against other. people. You are competing against your. past self and your future self. And for. most people, the best way to start with. deliberate play is to say, you know, if. you're trying to improve your skills at. playing the guitar or you're trying to. get better at crossword puzzles, uh the. person you're competing with is your. past self and the bar you're setting is. for your future self.

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toward the next trip. It's rewards that. are rewarding. Expedia, the one place. you go to go places. I want to go back to the diving board. example because I think as you listen to. that story, it's easy to also insert. yourself into the role of you as the. 13-year-old diver. For the person who is. starting to feel, oh, maybe there is. some potential in me, where do you even.

begin to start to believe that? I think. the biggest mistake I see people make is. they wait until they feel confident in. order to take action. And I learned. through diving that that's backward. So, let's let's fast forward a year or so. I'm starting to make a little progress. as a diver. And my biggest obstacle is. I'm afraid to try new dives because I'm. going to get lost in midair and then I'm. going to end up doing a belly flop or a. back smack. But one day, I will never.

forget this. I was so scared to try a. new dive. It was It was going to be a. full twisting two and a half. So, I'm on. the three meter springboard. I'm. supposed to do two forward somersaults, then a 360 turn, and then dive in. And I. just I had this vision of doing a. cartwheel and breaking my eardrum. And I. just I could not I couldn't I couldn't. get myself to go. And I was waiting. until I felt ready. And Eric, after 45. minutes of watching me stand on the. board shaking, said, "Adam, are you.

going to do this dive?". And I was like, "Ever. one day, yes, I would love to do this. dive." And Eric said, "Great. What are. you waiting for?". And Mal, in that moment, I realized that. I was waiting until I felt ready to take. the leap. But I could only become ready. by taking the leap. And I think that. that is I think that's a metaphor that. applies to every single confidence.

challenge we encounter. We're waiting to. build confidence in order to act. But. action is what builds confidence. >> I've heard Eric's voice in my head every. time I've been afraid to try something. new or take a risk. When I was. hesitating to write my first book, I. heard Eric asking me, "Adam, are you. going to do this one day?" Yes, why not. start today? When I got invited to give. my first TED talk, as an introvert who's. extremely shy and grappled with a fear. of public speaking, I was terrified and.

I heard Eric echoing, "Adam, would you. like to share your ideas on a stage like. that one day? I would love to." Great. What are you waiting for? And I think. that we really build confidence by. taking the leap. >> I love that. What role do relationships. play in helping you unlock your. potential? >> It's hard to overstate how important it. is to find other people who cheer for. you, who believe in you, who are willing. to both show you what you're capable of,

but also be honest with you when you're. not quite meeting the mark. But I think. a a small signal to say, "Hey, I'm. open," goes a long way to inviting. people to coach you. And so one thing I. learned from Eric actually, and this. this comes right out of diving, is I. would hit the water and I'd I'd pop up. after my dive and he would give me a. score of 0 to 10 because I can't see. where I am in midair. I can't tell. whether I made a splash or not. I can't.

tell whether I'm, you know, I've under. rotated or over rotated. And so Eric. would give me a score. And sometimes I. was excited. He'd say eight. And I felt. like I crushed it. Other times I'm I'd. come out of the water and he'd say three. and a half. But it didn't matter what. the score was. The only question was how. can I improve my score? How do I get. closer to 10? And I think that's a. question we can all ask. I I do this. every time I work with somebody new. Uh. after I give a a keynote speech, after I. come on a podcast, I will say 0 to 10.

How did that go? And then whatever the. score is, my next question is how can I. get closer to 10? M. >> and what I found works really well about. this is people rarely give tens and if. if they do I give them a hard time and. say look there's no such thing as a 10. what did you really think and then you. know whether they say hey I thought that. was a 6 and 1/2 or a two or a nine they. have acknowledged that it wasn't perfect. and then the natural follow-up question. is well great if you were going to make. one change what is the change that you.

would recommend. >> I actually love this based on your. research. What is the best way and. easiest way to really strengthen your. relationships? >> I have learned something. I have learned. that there is a habit that most of us. have that we don't realize is actually. vital to building new connections and. also rekindling old ones. It's called. pebbling. >> Okay. Pebbling. You have And he's got a. he's got a prop here. He's got a a glass.

full of little pebbles. >> Yeah. Okay. So, I love pebbling. The. origin of the term is there are there. are some penguins that when they're. courting mates, they will present. smooth, shiny pebbles as a way of of. showing, you know, basically they're. suitable for partnering and building a. nest together. If you picture a penguin. presenting this pebble, right, it's a. it's a little gesture that says, "Hey, I. might be for you.". The modern digital equivalent of.

pebbling is sending other people memes, links, reals, and articles. And I think that you know what what a. lot of people when they they hear that, they think, "Oh, well, I'm just going to. I'm just going to everything I find, I'm. going to blast it to everyone I know.". No. Pebbling is not about spamming. people with random junk from the. internet. It's about carefully choosing. a little bit of information that you. know is going to resonate with somebody.

else and it says, "I thought of you. I. know you. I see you." Every pebble is a. bid for connection. Every single pebble. you send to another person is a gesture. of care. Now, the research on this I. think is fascinating. So there have been. now multiple studies which show that. after you meet somebody new, if a week. or a month later you send them a little. pebble and you say, "Hey, I saw this. this meme of McCaulay Kulkin wearing a.

shirt with Ryan Gosling on it." And then. Ryan Gosling wore a shirt of McCauley. Kulkin wearing the Ryan Gosling shirt. and I like I know this is your jam. This. is your kind of humor. It just reminded. me of you instantly. that person will feel closer to you. because you remember their unique sense. of humor. That's a great way to to. strengthen a bond. It's also a great way. to get back in touch with someone. >> You reach out to somebody who's called a.

dormant tie, somebody you haven't talked. to in 2 years, 5 years, maybe a decade. or more, and you say, "I just watched. Silo, and it just you have to watch it. We have to talk about it. It reminded me. of you. I just finished uh the new. season of Ted Lasso and there is an. episode that has you written all over it. and that person really feels like wow. first of all I can't believe you. remembered my taste in TV so you've done.

a memory flex you you have said hey. guess what I cared enough about you to. pay attention to you but you've also now. created a reason to reconnect. >> I love that you know one thing that. people do with this show is when you. share an episode with somebody in your. family or a friend and you say, "Hey, I. just heard Adam Grant." You have to hear. the part where he's talking about. Pebbling or you have to hear the part. about not quitting your job or you have. to hear the part where he talks about.

your hidden potential and really the. source of confidence. You're going to. love this. That's an example of. pebbling. >> It is. talk about dormant ties and what. we get wrong about how big our actual. network is because one of the things. that I think a lot about especially in. the moment that we're living in and just. how lonely people feel is that I think. we don't realize how big our network is.

because we're judging it based on who we. saw in the last week and we feel. physically close to right now. That's. exactly right. We have a whole reservoir. of future friends that we're not. thinking about and they're actually our. old friends. >> Oh. Oh my god. Will you say that again? >> Yeah. I mean, >> how beautiful. >> For anybody who feels lonely or just. feels like they're not part of a. community or they don't have their. group, your future friends are the.

people you used to know. >> Wow. How many people are there in your. life that you lost touch with but you. would love to be back in contact with? We all have a few. Most of us actually. have five, 10, maybe even dozens. And. those are called dormant ties. In the. research, one of the things that happens. is people are prompted to reach out and. and reactivate the connection. And a lot. of people will grumble and they're like, "Some ties are dormant for a reason.".

No, Mel. Most highs are not dormant for. a good reason. We didn't mean to fall. out of touch. We got busy. We moved. We. changed jobs. We had kids. And life just. overwhelmed us. >> And if you look at what the data show, when we actually have the courage to. reach out and reconnect, 90% of the time. we enjoy it. 90. >> nine out of 10 times that you rekindle a.

connection, you will say, "Wow, this was. a delightful experience, and now we're. going to be back in touch.". >> You know what's interesting is that when. I left Dermouth and uh kind of just went. on in my life, it was 1990, so no cell. phones, no social media. When you moved. to Washington DC or you moved out to. California or London or wherever you. went, you just didn't see your college. friends. >> Yeah. I mean, you didn't have a way to. get in touch with them other than write. a letter and every time somebody moves, they have a different phone number.

because the phone was attached to the. wall. And so, I fell so out of touch. And recently, I have gotten back in. touch just with a dormant contact, my. freshman college roommate. Shout out. Bernardine. and I have now this group. chat on text with people I hadn't spoken. to in two decades. >> Wow. >> It's like four of us total that have. gone in completely different paths. And. it's the coolest thing.

>> It's such a great example. And it's much. easier to reconnect with someone you. used to know than start over from. scratch with somebody you hardly know. because there's probably a reservoir of. goodwill. You have shared history. you. have shared connections, there's some. trust. There's nostalgia, right? You you. know some of the same people, you have. some of the same memories. And so, it's. much easier to pick up where you left. off. I think what's sad in the research. is that when people when when they. realize this and they they find out,

wow, people love reconnecting. And also, by the way, you get better advice and. help from your dormant ties than from. your current context. >> Really? Why? on average. Yeah. Because. the people you currently are interacting. with regularly, they give you a lot of. redundant information. They're they're. exposed to a lot of the same people and. the same knowledge that you are. Whereas. your dormant ties have been meeting. different people. They've been learning. different things. And so they can open. up a new job lead, a fresh creative. perspective, a new idea. >> And I think that you hear that and you.

think, "Wow, there are all these people. who could be enormously helpful. They. could be, you know, just great people to. have in my life. Many people still. hesitate to reach out because they think. we're not going to vibe. It's going to. be awkward. They're not going to want to. hear from me. And that is, I think, a. mistake. >> It's not only a mistake. You're saying. 90% of the time the reconnection goes. way better. And so, do you have any. counsel. to how to do that? >> I actually think, you know, this article.

reminded me of you is a great place to. start. >> Wow. Um, I read a book that I think. you'd love. I listened to a song and it. took me right back. >> Oh, I love that one. >> To when we were 18. And I think, you know, if if something. happens and that activates your memory. of them, why not let them know? >> Here's another one. Because Bernardine. did this to me. She was helping her. parents clean out a uh clean out their. house as they were downsizing, and she. came across a box from this would have.

been 1986. >> She and I. Is there a photo? A momento? >> It's a momento. She and I turned our uh. dorm room, Russell Sage dorm at. Dartmouth into a bar. We called it Melon. Burns Bar. >> Why am I not at all surprised by that? >> We flipped over one of the desks to. block people from coming in the room. Bernardine went home to uh New York for. Thanksgiving, brought back blenders, we. made t-shirts, sold them to pay for the. booze, and we sold t-shirts and turned.

our room into a bar. She had one of the. t-shirts. >> and sent me a photo. >> There you go. >> Of this t-shirt from 1986, which would. have been over 30ome years ago. >> That is such a great I mean, talk about. a pebble. That is a pebble from the. past. That's a great That's like a. boulder [laughter]. >> from a time capsule. >> Yeah. >> Uh I think those are great ways to. reconnect. I think if you if you can't. find one or if that's that's just not.

your style, there are a few other ways. that it it's just really easy to get. back in touch. One is to wait for a. milestone, a birthday, an anniversary, you see that they got a new job, you. congratulate them on a promotion, and. that can be an opening. I'm coming to. your city is another simple one. I'd. love to get together and catch up. My. two favorites though, I think are are. just way underutilized. So, a lot of. people are afraid of being takers. And I. would say, why not reconnect as a giver? Reach out and say, you know what, I'm.

trying to I'm trying to be more helpful. to the people who matter to me. And I. know it's been a while, but you actually. played a really formative role in my. life. You're somebody that I really. value. I appreciate what you did for me. in this moment. I would love to pay it. back or pay it forward. If there's any. way I can be helpful in your life, please let me know. And then the other. one that I really love is just going. right to gratitude. Even just saying, "Hey, I wanted to tell you how much of a. difference you made in my life and I. miss you.". >> It's a great way to rekindle the. connection. And the worst case scenario,

they don't reciprocate. They weren't in. your life anyway. What do you have to. lose? >> That's true. That's true. I love the. specific. suggestions and I want to highlight one. of them because a lot of people start. doing this when you're looking for a job. and you need something from people. And. so if this is inspiring you, which I'm. sure it is, taking this coaching from. Adam and saying, "Okay, just reaching. out and saying you made a big difference.

in my life and I'm making it a practice. to just reach out to people from the. past who were meaningful and if I can. ever do anything or you want to. reconnect, I'd love to do that." You're. now laying the seeds also in your. network for the future. >> I spent many years studying the. different forms that generosity takes. And when most people think about. generosity, they think about going the. extra mile. They think about offering. help. They think about being a mentor or. coach. What almost nobody thinks of is. making introductions is a tiny act of.

kindness. Reaching out to somebody and. saying, "Hey, I actually met somebody. that I think you would really hit it off. with." Or, "I ran into somebody that I. think is a future friend of yours, and. I'd let me tell you a little bit about. why. would you be interested in. connecting? That five minute favor, that. quick introduction is not only a great. way to contribute to those two people, it also brings you closer to both of. them. >> I love that. Adam, you say everyone.

needs a challenge network. What is that? >> I think of a challenge network as kind. of the mirror image of your support. network. >> Okay. So if you think about your support. network, it's your mentors, your. sponsors, your coaches, your friends, your fans. Those are the people who. believe in you. They cheerlead for you. They have your back. I think we also. need a challenge network, which is a. group of thoughtful critics who you. trust to hold up a mirror so you can see. your own blind spots more clearly. And. they are the people who, instead of.

lining up to feed you comforting lies, actually have the courage to tell you. the unpleasant truths. >> But I hate those people. >> No, you don't. [laughter] You might you. might find them annoying or irritating. in the moment, but looking back, the. people who gave you tough love are the. ones who care most about you. >> Oh wow. The people who gave you tough. love are the ones who care the most. about you. >> We just make the wrong assumptions a lot. of times when people give us hard. feedback or when they tell us. uncomfortable truths. But most of the.

time when people take the time to tell. you a hard truth or to have a difficult. conversation with you, they're doing it. because they care about you or they care. about the relationship and they haven't. necessarily known how to show it and how. to communicate it. And so what happens. is um we show up and you know we're. we're actually trying to help somebody. else grow and they take it as a blow. They think you're attacking me or you're. judging me when in fact you're you're. just trying to lift them up.

I want to talk to parents and. grandparents who are watching right now. because school's now started and you. probably have a better sense of where. your kids are thriving and where they. may need a little extra support. So, I'd. like to tell you about our sponsor, Il.xl. is an awardwinning online learning. platform that helps your kids truly. understand what they're learning. And. it's for kids from prek all the way. through 12th grade. They offer. personalized interactive learning that. adapts to your child's level, pace, and. learning needs. Whether your kid needs.

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excl.com/mel. Visit excl.com/mel. to get the most effective learning. program out there at the best price. I love what you write in your new. blockbuster vibe. This one is so good. This is on page four. There's even. evidence that if we're standing with a. friend, a hill looks less steep. It. propels our best work and our biggest.

breakthroughs, enabling us to do. together what we can't do alone. Talk to. us about the power of other people and. the vibe that we create with them. >> Well, I think that a vibe is more than a. feeling. It's not just the sense of. energy and chemistry and time flying. when we interact with other people. When. neuroscientists study those moments. where we feel like we really vibed, they. find that our brain waves and our.

heartbeats synchronize. >> Heartbeats. >> Heartbeats. >> No way. >> Yeah. When you're vibing with somebody. else, you are actually your hearts are. beating in a common rhythm. >> That's so cool. >> It is. Right. And it's part of what. produces the feeling that we're really. hitting it off. And I think that in. those moments we believe that we got. lucky that we just found our match. And. I think that is that's occasionally. true. But most of the time a vibe is not. something you match for. You're not.

looking for a soulmate. It's actually. something that you build through. routines and rituals, through how you. interact. And I think if we make more. deliberate choices, we can't engineer. better connections, but we can set the. conditions that improve our chances of. really finding common ground with other. people. >> Okay. How do I do that? Because I think. that sounds. incredible. Because you do have those. experiences where you feel in flow with.

somebody else. And you're not talking. about a romantic relationship. You're. talking about friendship. You're talking. about colleagues. you're talking about. like you could be on a team at work or a. little league team where the vibe just. feels like this glue. So, how do you. create the conditions for that in your. relationships? >> I think the most important thing is to. be clear about what kind of vibe you're. trying to build. >> Oh, okay. Well, how do I know that? >> Well, this is a new revelation for me.

So I've synthesized data from thousands. and thousands of people across many. countries in the world. And the light. bulb moment for me was there actually. three different kinds of vibes. And they. exist in romantic relationships, they. exist in friendships, they exist in. collaborations, in any kind of. connection. We can be allies, pals, or. companions. >> Okay? Allies, pals, or companions. Let's. break them apart. >> Allies are people who share your goals. You're on a mission together.

Pals are people who share your interests. and hobbies. You have fun together. Companions are people who share your. values. You care about each other. And Mel, I cannot tell you how many of. our misconnections, how many of our. disappointing interactions are because. we're on different wavelengths. So, I. come into a conversation with you. thinking that we're going to be. companions or that we already are. companions. and I tell you about a. really difficult moment and I open up.

about the grief that I'm going through. because I lost somebody that I care. about. >> Yeah. >> And you kind of give a prefuncter, I'm. so sorry for your loss and you never. mention it again. And you don't check in. with me a couple days later. You don't. follow up a month later. And I feel. betrayed. I feel like you are not the. person I thought you were. You're not my. friend. What I am missing in that moment. is you may not be a good companion for. me, but we could still be great pals. >> We have a blast doing karaoke together.

Actually, we don't. I can't sing or. dance, but if I could, maybe we would. Um, we really love playing pickle ball. or padell together. We have a great time. in a book club together. Those are all. PAL interactions. And I've I've tried to. interact with you on the wrong. wavelength. We might also be great. allies. You might be somebody that I. don't necessarily like interacting with, but I work really well together because. you have complimentary skills and you.

complete me in a professional way, but. maybe you're not the shoulder that I. would lean on. Maybe you're not the best. person to confide in. And this is what. the evidence shows clearly is many of. our dissatisfying relationships and even. just interactions come from the fact. that we have misaligned expectations. And if we can get on the same page about. the fact that we both want to be pals or. that you're looking for allyship or. you're seeking companionship, then we. have a much better chance of vibing and. then we can actually find the right.

routines and rituals that get us on that. wavelength together. Adam Grant, you're. a damn genius. I I'm not kidding because. I I want to unpack this. David Kesler, the extraordinary expert on finding. meaning after grief and devastating. things that happen in life, has a saying. that I've never forgotten. When you are. seeking. something from someone who cannot. provide it, it's like looking for milk.

in a hardware store. [laughter]. >> It's a great analogy, >> right? And when you said the example of. trying to connect with somebody or. getting support from somebody that. you're interacting with like a deep. companion that shares your values, that. is able to show up for you in a way that. just works. And you're doing that from a. pal. That's like looking for milk in a. hardware store.

>> So true. >> Yeah. And there's nothing wrong with. your pal. No, they're just they're just. not the right companion for you. >> Correct. >> And they might even be a good companion. for someone else. I mean, the reason. that example was so salient for me is. because it happened to me. Um during. during COVID, my wife Allison was. diagnosed with breast cancer and I. didn't talk to a lot of people about it. I I'm not somebody who seeks a lot of. companionship. I think my go-to way of. interacting with people is as allies. first and maybe pals second. Yeah. So, I.

was catching up with with a friend uh. who had confided in me in the past about. some difficult experiences he was going. through with his wife and also with his. work. And he asked me how I was dealing. with co. >> And for whatever reason, I had just been. focused on, you know, trying to be a. supportive partner to Allison and being. a good dad to our three kids. But for. whatever reason, because he had, you. know, shown a little bit of a desire to. be companions, >> I mentioned to him that, you know, she. was going through chemotherapy.

>> And I just got a prefuncter response of. that's, you know, that sounds really. hard. I'm sorry. And then it never came. up. And I I really felt let down. And I. I my first reaction was, you're dead to. me. How dare you not show up? like the least. you could do is care enough to ask. again. And then I thought about it and I. realized, you know what, maybe I was. just looking for the wrong thing from.

the wrong person at the wrong time. >> And over time, this particular person is. probably one of the few best allies in. my life. >> Uh has been so helpful to me when I'm. stuck on figuring out how to synthesize. a bunch of data. has been a tremendous. source of ideas as a brain brainstorming. partner, has introduced me to some of. the best people in my life, an. incredible connector, and also is just a. really fun pal. We love all the same. racket sports, and it was a great lesson.

before I had the language, but now with. the vocabulary, like, okay, I am okay. with the fact that you are you are my. go-to ally and pal in many ways. I'm no. longer expecting companionship from you, and I have not felt disappointed once. since. And what's also incredible about. this language that you're giving us, allies, pals, companions, is it allows. you to accept people as they are and as. they're not. And you're extending grace. to people without judgment. >> Boom.

>> And that creates deeper connection in. your relationship. Being able to see. people. Oprah has this example that I. love that there are 10 gallon people. And if you are a 10gon person that needs. 10 gallons of attention and 10 gallons. of this and 10 gallons of that, do not try to get 10 gallons from a. pint-sized person because a pint-sized. person has a pint size to give you. And. they're always going to feel like they. gave you everything that they had to. give and they did. But you're going to.

feel like they gave you nothing. >> because of what you needed. And another. way to explain that example is you're. trying to get 10 gallons of. companionship and support from a pal. >> That's so interesting. I think that's. that is spot on. It it reminds me Oprah. said once that everybody wants to take. the limo with you and the real friends. are the ones who take the bus when the. limo breaks down. >> Yeah. >> And I think that's true. I also think. that [laughter] if you think about what. happens when the bus breaks down, your.

allies are the ones who are trying to. fix the engine or repair the brakes, your pals are the ones who are cracking. jokes and trying to pass the time. Your. companions are the ones who are trying. to console you about the fact that, you. know, yeah, you might miss the the event. you were trying to get to, but you know. what? It's going to be okay. >> I'm going to tell you something that I. know is true. by giving us three. categories of people is you have given. us the language.

of relationships. >> Thank you for saying that. It makes so. much sense when you explain that we need. all three and people are who they are. and given where you are in your life, your age, your life experience, what you. need in the moment, you need allies, you. need pals, you need companions. And what. I'm getting from this conversation is. 95%.

maybe even 99% of the frustrations that. you feel in your relationships is that. you are speaking and seeking. the wrong language from a person in your. life and that's not on them. It's on. you. >> Yes. and seeing people as they are. instead of constantly being frustrated. and pissed off that they can't read my. mind or provide me what I'm looking for. >> Yeah, it's liberating. >> Yes. >> I mean, I've I've actually found myself. saying to people, I know I can't read.

your mind. Can you read it to me? >> Yeah, it's great. But you just handed me. you just decoded it for me. >> I think there's a paradox here, which is. the more wavelengths you can connect. with someone on, the closer you tend to. be. our our best friends, our best. partners as well, our favorite. collaborators, our ride or die. All of. those people tend to have elements of. allies, pals, and companions blended in. our interactions. >> But I think the the other side of that. is that if [snorts] you put all of the.

people in your life into all of those. buckets, you are putting undue burden on. every relationship. >> And we see this in marriages. We know. that if your partner is always your. number one companion, pal, and ally, you're more likely to be stressed. because you're just holding them to. unrealistic expectations. We also know. that if you go to different friends for. different things, you actually have. higher well-being. You're happier. You're less likely to be depressed and. exhausted than if you have one friend. who's always your ally, pal, and.

companion. >> I absolutely love this. What are you. saying to your students at Warden about. careers and the number one skill that. they need to be thinking about? >> I think that I I actually think there. are three skills that are critical now. The first one is we have gone from a. world of information scarcity to. information abundance. And what that means is you used to. achieve success by collecting facts.

Right? In a knowledge economy, the. person who had the most expertise was. the most valued. Now, in a world of. information abundance, that's no longer. true. And what matters is not collecting. facts. It's connecting dots. It's the. ability to recognize patterns, to. synthesize different pieces of. information, to reconcile competing. ideas that ultimately I think is going. to help people succeed. And so I think. if the past belong to the fact.

collectors, the future belongs to the. dot connectors. >> I love that. >> That's the first one. Secondly, I think. the the currency of career growth used. to be ability. The more capable you. were, the faster you rose. That was true. in a stable world. Now we live in a. dynamic world where the pace of change. is accelerating. What matters now is not. your ability, it's your agility. The people who rise the fastest, the. people who achieve the greatest success. are the ones with the greatest. motivation and ability to learn. And the.

third one is I think the one thing that. bots and machines cannot easily. replicate is human experience. Live interaction is really hard to. substitute for. And I think people are. complicated. I think conversation is. messy. But if you get good at. understanding other people's needs and. goals, at helping them grapple with. their challenges, at being a good. friend, being a good adviser, being a. curious question asker, then you are.

bringing something indispensable that. other people have a hard time finding. When I think about what it means to. master the art of connecting with other. people, I think about a term, it's. inverse charisma. >> Inverse charisma. >> Yeah, inverse charisma. I originally. came across it. EM Forster's biographer. coined the term. Forester apparently had. this magical ability to make you more. charismatic when he talked to you. because he asked such thoughtful.

questions and listened so attentively. and then asked you follow-ups that. brought out a sharper, wiser, more. magnetic version of you. And I think. that if charisma was what made people. successful in the social media era, it's. inverse charisma, the ability to make. others more charismatic that might drive. success in the AI era. >> Knowing that you're one of the most. sought after speakers and teachers and.

consultants in the corporate space, I. bet you're getting this question over. and over and over again. And I would. love to hear your thoughts on this. For. the person that feels like they are. under an avalanche at work between all. of the tech platforms, the changing. demands with AI, the fact that there's a. reduction in the number of people on. your team, it how do you know what to. focus on? Because this is a question I. get at every single place I speak to and.

it feels as though people are on a. treadmill and it's just somebody's. making it go faster and faster and. faster and faster and faster. And so. what I hear under that question is how. do I even know what's important because. when everything's important, nothing's. important. >> Yeah. >> But I don't know what to do because the. pressure is non-stop. >> This this is actually a great moment to. come full circle because I I struggle. with this all the time. Like what book. do I want to write next? What podcast. topics do I want to take on? What class. do I want to teach? What research. projects do I want to launch? Like, I.

could study anything. I could learn. about anything. I could communicate. about anything. I don't know what's. what's important and what to prioritize. I think what I've learned as I've, you. know, as I've stumbled a bunch of times. through that is you want to pay. attention not just to what lights you up. and to what other people need, but also. where do you have the most unique value. to add. And I think this is a question. that a lot of people overlook is if you. think about your job, it doesn't matter. what's in your job description. What. matters is what is the thing that you.

can do that other people can't. What is. the task or the project or the. interpersonal dynamic that makes you. irreplaceable? That's what you should. prioritize because that's the. contribution that is going to last and. that's going to make the most impact. Ideally, you're trying to align where. you add unique value to what the mission. of your organization is. And I think. that for me mission is about impact. That's clearly a value you share. I. think one of the questions that that I. love to reflect on is if you were not.

doing your job, who would be worse off? >> Like if you had never entered this. field, if you had never joined this. organization, if you'd never pursued. this career or taken this role, who. would be suffering? And when you start to name specific. people or groups of people, they might. be clients or customers or patients or. readers, >> colleagues. >> Yeah. Colleagues, even. >> whoever comes to mind, those people are. the reason why your work matters. And if.

you don't know what to prioritize, find. out how those people are hurting right. now and look for ways to help them. >> Oh, that's a good one. And it could even. start with just checking in with the. person you report to and saying, "What's. the biggest problem that I can work on. for you that would make your life. easier?" You will become indispensable. if that's what you do. >> Absolutely. What is your hardest problem. right now? >> Yes. Yes. I love that. Is there any. advice on how you create inverse. charisma? >> If you're trying to create inverse. charisma, there are a few things you can.

do. One is you shorten your your talking. time. Too many interactions are people just. alternating monologues. It's true. Like somebody asks you, "How. was your day?" and you launch into a. 19-minute rant. You have lost the other. person. And that was a bad question, by. the way. You should not ask someone, "How was your day?" What what you want. to do is ask somebody a question that. elicits a really interesting 1 to two.

minute answer. And that question might. be, if we're talking about, you know, just catching up, it might be, "Tell me. about what surprised you the most today. Let me go to a specific emotion. Tell me. about your peak moment of joy. What was. your biggest frustration today? Who. irritated you? What did they do?" And. then you give that quick answer and then. I'm going to then kind of rebound on. that. I'm going to riff on that and. we're going to have a novel conversation. that we've never had before. My my.

oldest daughter actually taught me a. great example of a question that. immediately elicits inverse charisma. She loves to ask people, "Do you think. aliens are out there?". >> Oh, I love that. >> It's such a good question because it's. not hard to answer. People have an. immediate yes or no. And then they they. usually respond with a lot of enthusiasm. and they'll say, "Absolutely. Haven't. you seen Contact or Interstellar? Of. course." or they say, "No, not at all.".

And then she she says, "Why?" Like, "Unpack that for me." And then they get. fired up explaining their reasoning. And. then they immediately get curious about. what she thinks. Inverse charisma starts. with asking people a question that you. cannot wait to hear their answer to. And. that as they answer it, it's going to. spark new thoughts in you and you're. both going to learn something from. whatever transpires and you can't. predict where the conversation is going. to go. >> I love that. Adam, one topic I'd love to. have you teach us a little bit about is.

the work that you've done, the research. you've done, the research that you. synthesize by some amazing colleagues. and people that you respect about the. reality of women in the workplace and. the things that are unfair that are. happening to us that we may not be aware. of and the things that we need to start. doing differently so that we can. succeed. >> To be honest, Mel, I I'm actually. embarrassed. I was late to this. conversation. For the first few years of. my career, I avoided talking about. gender differences in the workplace. I.

avoided talking about all the evidence. that women are still held back. professionally. And I I just said, "As a. man, it's not my place. I don't want to. speak for women." And several of my. female colleagues actually sat me down. And Nancy Rothbart and Sagal Barate in. particular, they sat me down and they. said, "It matters for a man to call out. these problems. We wish it didn't, but. it does." And sure enough, there is. evidence showing that when women point. out the gaps and disparities, people. unfairly malign them as self-s serving.

or complaining or whining. Whereas when. a man points it out, people take it. really seriously. And I wish that were. not true, but it is. And so I think my. first responsibility as a feminist is to. call attention to the data to a lot of. the research that's being done. especially by women as well as men that. documents what the barriers are to. advancement and success and then how we. can collectively overcome them. So, if. you're in a situation where you're. working very hard and your head is down. and you're not getting promoted, you're.

not getting paid what you want, you're. not even getting the feedback, and. you're seeing people that are less. qualified or you're seeing the idiot. that's always like talking in the. meeting get the job that you actually. deserve, what are some of the things you. want women in particular to think about? >> Well, let's talk about Linda Babcock's. research cuz it's been eye opening for. me. Uh what Linda shows is that women do. a disproportionate amount of the office. housework. Just like women carry an. unfair share of the load at home of you. know cooking and cleaning and driving.

places, they also do an undue amount of. the thankless work at work. They are. tasked with taking notes in meetings, with planning parties, with creating. agendas. And I think that this is a huge. problem. It's a big problem because. these are tasks that need to be done, but they are not considered strategic. >> and therefore they don't count in a. performance review. They're not valued. in a promotion and women are both asked. to do these tasks more often because.

people assume, oh, she's caring, she's. warm, she wants to help. Whereas a man, I never would have expected him to care. about another human being. I'm I'm not. going to bother to ask. And then what. Linda shows in her research with her. colleagues is if women say no, they are. penalized more. >> because they are violating the gender. stereotype. >> that pressures them to say yes to. everything. Whereas if a man says no, nobody minds. >> If a woman says yes, it's taken for.

granted. She wants to help. Whereas a. man says yes, he gets showered with. praise and rewards. What a good guy. What I've taken away from from Linda's. work in this area is number one, we need. to stop dumping the office housework on. women. Number two, women need to be. given permission to say no. Uh, Linda. started a no club. It's a group of women. who actually share their requests and. they encourage each other to say no. And. I think the question of how to do that. is a really important one. So, what what.

does a good no look like? An effective. no is a no that actually shows. helpfulness and kindness. It's, hey, thank you so much for. inviting me to be on the furniture. committee. [laughter]. I am so honored that you respect my. taste enough that you want me to design. the chairs and arrange them. I just. wanted to share with you I have been. actually asked to do a fair number of. things that I I originally did not know. were part of my job. And just so you.

have visibility into my role, here are. all the things that I'm doing. I want to. make sure that I'm prioritizing what. really matters here. Can you help me. think through which of these things I. should be doing and which ones I should. not have on my plate? >> That's beautiful because you now just. put it back on me and you did it in a. way that was super amazing and sneaky. because you teed up all the things. you're working on which as your manager. I probably had no clue you were doing. that much stuff and so you turned a no. into a point of visibility and getting.

clarity on strategy. >> That's the goal. Um, what is one thing. that you would tell your daughters. because you are a girl dad? Um, that is. something that is an important skill to. be thinking about if you do want to be. promoted and seen as a strategic. contributor. >> I'm going to say something that I am. uncomfortable saying cuz I wish it. weren't true, but I've had this. conversation with my daughters. I think. it is a travesty. It's 2026. that we are still in a world where when.

women assert their ideas, advocate for. their skills, ask for promotions, they. often get backlash. It's been called the. the likability penalty. And it's not. actually competence that other people. are threatened by, especially insecure. men. It's agency, ambition, or what's. sometimes, I think, unhelpfully called. dominance. And that's where we see, this. is Ashley Rosette and her colleagues. research, the specific backlash against. agentic women happens when people feel.

like, well, she's being too strong and. too tough and therefore she's violating. expectations of kindness and of. humility. And I think that's an unfortunate. reality. I think that needs to change. But I think in the meantime, I think. that women need to be armed with that. knowledge. And the conversation I've had. with my daughters is the following. What. I've said to them is do not shy away. from asserting your ideas. But no, unfortunately, when you're assertive, you are more likely to be stereotyped as.

aggressive than when I'm assertive. And. that is wrong. Full stop. But what that. means is you have to work extra hard. when you assert your ideas to also show. openness to other people's views. It. means if you're going to ask for a. promotion unfairly, you have to do a. little bit of extra work to explain how. you are going to make that the best. possible situation for the team or the. organization that you're not just asking. for yourself. You even see this in. negotiation. Uh Linda Babcock and Hannah. Riley BS have done some great.

experiments on this where they study how. you can actually ask for a raise in you. can even ask for a raise for yourself in. ways that signal care and concern. So, you come in and you say, "Hey, Mel, um, I, you know, I'm I'm really excited. about this job. I would love to take it. There's one hesitation, which is the. salary, and I'm I'm hoping you can make. it make this an easy decision for me. I. am going to negotiate for myself the way. that I will represent you if you hire.

me. I am going to be tough, but fair. I. am going to aim extremely high, but I'm. going to do that respectfully. And so. I'm actually gonna demonstrate my. negotiating skills in our negotiation. And I hope you want that on the team. >> Amazing. >> Men should be doing this, too. By the. way, everybody who's looking for a raise. or a promotion should be negotiating. that in ways that say, "This is not just. about me. It's going to serve others as. well." But unfortunately, it's more. important for women to do that given the.

world of gender stereotypes we live in. >> You know, we've covered so much. If. there's one takeaway or skill or thing. you want the person to do after. everything that you've taught us that. you think is really important, just take. a highlighter and say, "I don't want you. to forget this thing." Like, "I want you. to try this thing." What would it be? >> The big takeaway of this conversation. for me is that it's never too late. >> It is never too late to find your hidden. potential and unlock it. It is never too.

late to reach out to somebody that you. lost contact with and get back in touch. It is never too late to ask for a raise. or a promotion, not only because you. believe you deserve it, but because. you're ready to earn it. And I think. that so often we write ourselves off, we. write relationships off, we write. opportunities off because we think we. missed the window and we didn't. Milton. Burl said, "When opportunity doesn't. knock, build a door." And I think that's.

great. But I think first you should look. for a window you can open. >> Uh or a rock that you can break apart so. you can see all of this incredible. potential inside. >> and then you can throw the rock through. the window if you need to [laughter]. break it. >> Yes. [gasps]. Adam Grant, what are your parting words? >> I I just want to say thank you. This is. such a professional experience and I've. learned so much not only about the. topics I care so deeply about but also. about how to how to create a really.

meaningful conversation and it's just. been it's been a privilege to be a part. of it. Thank you. >> Well, uh the honor has been all mine. Thank you for the work that you do. Thank you for the way that you teach. Thank you for the passion that you bring. to the work that you're doing. You have. made me a better leader. You've made me. a better companion, ally, and pal. I. mean it. I don't really have the words. to explain the impact that you've had on.

the person that I've become. So, thank. you. >> Thank you for that. >> You're welcome. And I also want to thank. you. Thank you for making time and for. spending it with Adam and with me. There. is so much that I am going to go right. back actually after I'm done talking to. you and relisten to this. I have pages. and pages of notes and I am so excited. for you and I'm excited for everybody. that you share this with. And one of the. big things I want to leave you with is. this. The next time you find yourself.

locked and overthinking, is it this? Is. it that? Remember, door C. And if you don't want to open the door, pick up the damn rock and throw it. through the window. There's your door. and window C. And in case nobody else. tells you, I wanted to be sure as your. friend to remind you that I love you and. I believe in you and I believe in your. ability to create a better life. And. absolutely everything that Adam taught. you today, [music] every takeaway based. on the research is how you create a. better life. And I truly hope you do it.

All right, I will see you in the next. episode. I'm going to welcome you in the. moment you hit play. And thank you for. watching all the way to the end here on. [music] YouTube. I know you loved that. and I loved being with you and thank you. for sharing this with people in your. life that you care about. [music] All. righty. I know you want to watch another. episode of the Mel Robbins podcast. You're going to love this one next and. I'll welcome you in the moment you hit. play.