How to Communicate With Confidence & Ease (From Harvard Business School’s #1 Professor)

Every person you know, every. relationship in your life is a repeated. sequence of conversations over time. So. even if each of those conversations. [music]. gets a little bit better, this short. time that we have on the earth, everything about it is going to get. better. Communication is everything. [music]. Everything. It's a series of tiny. choices that you're making at every. moment of every conversation. >> And you have a fourpart [music]. framework that helps us communicate more. effectively. Can you tell me what the. four-part framework [music] is?

>> Yes, very briefly. T stands for topics, A stands for [music] asking, L is for. levity, and K is for kindness. In my. [music] class, we do an exercise called. neverending follow-up questions. >> Uh-oh. I have a feel like we're about to. do this. >> Do you want to try it? >> Yes. >> Like, we're all on these journeys. looking for those magical moments of. connection, and sometimes they happen. This is where real power and authority. and influence come from. When we think. of people who are charismatic and. competent, [music] this is what they're.

doing. >> And that's what you're going to teach us. today. >> That's what I'm going to teach you. today. >> Professor Allison Woodbrooks, welcome to. the Mel Robbins podcast. >> I'm so happy to be here, Mel. Thank you. >> I am so excited to just dig into your. research and learn everything that we. can learn from this crazy popular class. that you teach at Harvard Business. School. But here's where I want to. start. There is a person listening right. now who has no time. >> and yet they found time and made time. >> to be with you and me right now. What.

can the person listening expect to. change about their life? If they take. everything that you're about to teach us. and they try it and they put it to use. if they really take what we talk about. to heart, I think everything about their. life could get better. your love life, your relationship with your children, your relationship with your parents, your work, your relationships with your. colleagues, what you're able to get done. together, everything, every person you. know, every relationship in your life is.

a repeated sequence of conversations. over time. So even if each of those. conversations gets a little bit better, this short time that we have on the. earth, everything about it is going to. get better. >> Wow. You just said our whole life is going to. get better. Why does communication. matter so much? >> Communication is everything. Everything. So really, you can think of every. relationship in your life as this. repeated sequence of conversations. And. if you zero in on each one of those.

conversations, it's a series of tiny. choices that you're making at every. moment of every conversation. And we're. about to do it right now, Mel. Um, every. moment you're making these choices. What. should we be talking about? What should. I be asking the other person about? When. should we be laughing? When should we be. crying? Uh when should I ask a question? When should I share something of myself? We're making these tiny micro decisions. all the way along. And it's going to. determine what we're able to do. together, what we're able to accomplish. together, what we're able to learn about.

each other. How we talk is who we are. and what we're able to do in the world. I love how you framed it because I was. sitting here thinking, I hope that she. can help me not have so many regrets. because I think a lot of us leave a. conversation, you're like, "Oh, I wish I. hadn't have said that." Or, "Oh, I wish. I would have brought that up." But. you're also talking about the power of. forward momentum. >> Yeah. >> By small shifts in these interactions. that we have with people at work, in our.

love life, in our families that can. change everything. And you have earned. the right to talk about this and to. teach us this because you created and. you teach a wildly popular and. award-winning Harvard Business School. course. It is called Talk: How to Talk. Goodter in Business and Life. And I'm. not that good with grammar being. dyslexic, but I know that goodter is. probably not the right word. So, but I.

have a feeling it's intentional. Why the. hell do you call it how to talk goodter. in business and life? >> I have to tell you getting that that. course title approved by the administr. by the powers that be at Harvard is one. of the greatest accomplishments of my. professional life. It's sitting next to. so many serious courses like democracy. in America and capitalism in today's. age. Um it was intentional. It has a few. different meanings. Of course, it's. grammatically incorrect which drives. some people up the wall, but there's two. meanings. uh a huge part of the course. is about balancing gravity and levity.

>> And so I really wanted to signal that in. the course title. We're going to take. conversation, we're going to take our. work very seriously, but in order to do. that, we need to also maintain a spirit. of play and fun. We have to have fun. together or we aren't going to feel. safe. We're not going to be able to make. progress. Uh the word goodter also is. really rooted in this word good. Um. we're going to work towards a goal of. kindness. We want to be good people when. we're talking to other people and.

hopefully a little bit goodter. >> So I want to hear the story behind what. made you want to even create this. course? Because if you're really. thinking about it, you've got Harvard. Business School 11% acceptance rate. Aren't the people going to Harvard. Business School already good at. communicating? >> I know this is what everybody thinks and. and in a way yes and in a way no. Okay. Okay. Uh when I was originally recruited. to be on the faculty at Harvard, I was. recruited to teach a course on. negotiation. >> And by the way, the negotiation course. at Harvard is like legendary.

>> Yeah. Some of the some of my colleagues. were sort of the founders of this. framework that is now taught at every. business school, at every law school. Um. it's really an incredible course. >> Why were they recruiting you? I don't. mean to be rude, but like what were you. doing at the time that made them go, "We. got to have Professor Brooks here.". [laughter]. >> Um well, I went to grad school. I went. to grad school in a business school at. Wharton in Philadelphia. I was obsessed. with humans and people and figuring us. all out. And I was a behavioral. scientist. And in grad school, I spent.

my time studying emotions, the way that. we feel on the inside, but also how we. talk about our feelings with other. people. And one of the places that I. studied emotions was in negotiations. When you put people in these difficult. situations, how do they feel? How are. their feelings influencing their. behavior? and what they're able to do. when they're negotiating. >> Well, that's super cool. So, this is. your area of expertise. You get. recruited to go to Harvard Business. School to teach this course in. negotiation. What happened? >> Yeah. So, I was there. I taught.

negotiation for about four years. It's. an amazing course. You spend time. practicing in doing these role plays of, okay, you're going to be you're the. manager of a factory and you need to. negotiate and procure some of these hard. things or oh, now you're going to. negotiate for a new house. Okay, let's. do that. Let's go practice. So you do. these role plays, >> you learn great frameworks about how to. do it better. >> But even as I was teaching this great. class and I could feel that my students. were getting so much value from it, I. realized that we were missing something.

>> Okay. >> When I think about negotiations, you. realize how often am I doing that? How. often are you doing this? Um maybe. you're negotiating for a new car or a. new house or a higher salary. I don't. know, maybe once every two months, maybe. And what I started to realize is. like, wait, but we have to talk to. people all day long, every day. And I. don't think of those as negotiations. That seems like a different nut to. crack. >> Yeah. >> And many of our students at Harvard are.

actually already quite strategic. So, some of the lessons that we're teaching. them in negotiation are pretty intuitive. to them. We're taking strategic people. and like teaching them to be even more. strategic. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I think what these people. need might be how do we teach them to be. more engaging and fun and funny and. interesting and dynamic and more. empathic. Um where's the course that can. help them to do that? >> And there wasn't one. >> Uh they've tried many ways over the.

years and none of them have really. stuck. >> Okay. So you come up with this course. called talk. >> Yeah. >> And based on your research, why is. communication so challenging for people? Oh my gosh, communication is challenging. for a million reasons. Um, when you. think if you asked me to make a list of. the mistakes that people make in. conversation, I would go on and on. We. choose the wrong topics. We forget to. raise the topics that we should talk. about. We don't ask enough questions. We.

ask too many questions. We're talk too. much about ourselves. We don't focus. enough on the other person. We brag. We. humble brag. We give backhanded. compliments. We we do all of these. things. The laundry list is so long it. feels almost insurmountable. And I'm in my mind I'm like, wait, but. people can't keep all of those things in. their heads all the time. What they. really need is a simple framework that. can help them wrap their arms around. this vast ocean of complexity that is in.

every conversation. And when you look. under the hood of every conversation, you start to realize how complex it. really is. >> And that's what you're going to teach us. today. That's what I'm going to teach. you. >> This simple framework. Um, Professor. Brooks, before we jump into. the takeaways from this class and all of. the research that you've done on the. science of communication, can you just. tell me and the person who's listening, how exactly does becoming a better.

communicator impact you for real? Yeah, becoming a better communicator is going. to help you gain and maintain higher. status. >> What does that mean? >> When I use the word status, what I mean. is um likability, respect, um power, uh. what the kids these days would call riz, right? It's these pe people who have. high status are the ones we admire that. we like that have power in their groups. at work, in their friend groups, in. their families. And so when you hear me. say high status, I'm not talking about.

like fancy or high fallutin or what. social class you're in. Literally in. your social group, are you respected? Do. you have power? Do you have influence? >> Well, that's everything. >> Yeah, it's everything. >> Wow. So learning to be a better. communicator by really taking all this. science of communication that you teach. at Harvard Business School and applying. it means you'll have more respect. You'll have more influence whether. you're talking about in your home with. your family or you're talking about with.

your colleagues or you're talking about. in the classroom or the hospital you. work with. >> We're really talking about your ability. to not only communicate but to be. respected and admired by your peers and. listened to. >> That's right. and have a little fun. while you're doing it. >> All right. Well, let's dig in to all of. your research. Um, what do you think is. the single biggest reason. >> why most people can't communicate. effectively? >> Probably, if I was forced to choose the. single biggest reason is our human. nature of egoentrism. Uh, our.

>> that's a big word. What does that mean? >> Yeah. Self-centered. We're. self-centered. We're self-focused. Our. brains are built for survival. We're. focused on what is my perspective? How. can I stave off dangers and fears and. stay alive and sort of proliferate my. own life and protect my family? And. egoentric that that self-focus is good. for survival back when we were hunters. and gatherers, but in today's day and. age, it also holds us back from really. connecting with other people. You have.

to relentlessly sort of fight against. your self-centered instincts to really. focus on another person. M Well, that's. true cuz you go into a conversation sort. of with that default mode of like what's. in this for me? >> Yeah. >> And if you're thinking about it from. what's in it for you, you're probably. already starting off on the wrong foot. >> in a bad place. Yes. >> You know, I recently read research, Professor Brooks, that every generation. is getting worse at communicating. Do.

you think that's true? >> I don't know. I don't think every. generation is getting worse. I think um. people human beings have probably always. struggled with conversation. Let me back. up for a moment. >> In the book, we talk about conversation. as a coordination game. And a. coordination game is any sort of. decision you need to make independently. between two or more people uh where you. can't communicate. So the game of. chicken is a good example where you're. sort of hurdling towards each other and.

you have to choose do I veer left or. veer right and both people have to. choose without talking to each other. They have to coordinate. Okay. So a. conversation is like this game of. chicken except you're making these. relentless coordination decisions. You're deciding what are we going to. talk about? What am I going to disclose. about it? How are we going to talk about. it? Are we going to be silly? Are we. going to be serious? Are we going to. >> am I going to talk about it at all? Because now when you said chicken, I. thought, >> wait a minute, the person listening, I. know me, has somebody in their life they. have to deal with that they can't quite.

communicate with. >> It can get very frustrating. >> Yes. >> And you know, we don't even think about. it. We just then start to avoid the. person that we're having trouble. communicating with. >> What do you think all of us get wrong. when it comes to communication? >> Oh, so there's this. So there's this. focus on the self which starts you from. a place of getting you off on a bad foot. and you're f often focusing on yourself. the whole way along. Uh researchers have. sort of found consensus on this idea. that failures and perspective taking.

being able to understand the other. person's point of view and their mind is. the single greatest barrier to conflict. resolution and to connection. And that's. true at every moment of every. conversation. We struggle to understand. what the other person is thinking and. feeling and what they're going to say. and do next. We rely on our own beliefs, our own opinions, our own feelings to. guess how somebody else is is feeling. And we're really bad at guessing. >> You know, I've already learned. something, which is I assumed, and I I'm.

sure we'll get into it, that being a. better communicator is about you. speaking differently. And what you're already kind of. signaling is, wait a minute, if you. can't actually understand that. communicating is about connecting with. somebody. Yeah. And being able to stop. yourself and truly step into somebody. else's shoes and imagine what they might. be feeling. If you can't do that, you. can't communicate. Is that what you're. basically saying? >> That's exactly right. Because.

conversation is co-constructed. It's. between two people or more. It's not a. you thing. It's not it's it's completely. separate from public speaking which. where it's like one person standing on a. stage not getting a response. Dialogue. is about back and forth. You take turns. speaking and listening and you don't. know what your partner's going to say. next, but you're going to have to. respond to it. It's cocreated. So, it's. really not about you. It's about you. plus the other person and what you can. build together.

>> I love that. And so, you've taken a. decade of research. >> Yeah. And you have a fourpart framework. that helps us communicate more. effectively. Can you tell me what the. four-part framework is? >> Yes, very briefly. T stands for topics, A stands for asking, L is for levity, and K is for kindness. I realize you. take an entire semester at Harvard. Business School to unpack the four-part. framework, but today, Professor Brooks, you are going to teach us this four-part.

framework step by step. So, let's start. with the first part. T is for topics. So, topics are the things we talk about, right? If I asked you after this. recording to look back and say, "What. did we talk about?" You could your brain. would be really good at organizing and. categorizing. Oh well, we first we. talked about your course and then we. talked about topics and then this. >> So your bra our brains are really good. at chunking things into segments into.

topics. >> Okay, >> which is so helpful in practice because. it means that we can use that ability to. steer topics while we're talking to each. other. >> But don't you have to be really good at. communicating in order to steer the. topics? >> You do not have to be good. You just you. just have to know that it's happening. And so I think often when you say like. top what topic you're going to talk. about, people think about the opening. topic like. >> well let's put us at the scene. How. would you use the t topic part of the. four-part framework to let's say you're.

going out on a date. >> Yeah. >> Okay. How do you use topic to help you. be a better communicator? Anyone who's. going out on a date is already thinking. about what they're going to wear, how. they're going to do their hair, what. makeup they're going to put on, where. they're going to what restaurant they're. going to meet at, what activity they're. going to do. >> We do all of this prep work ahead of. time. >> Uhhuh. >> Only 10% of people think about what. they're going to talk about once they. get there. >> You're spending so much time showering. and getting dressed and making the.

reservation at the restaurant. At the. same time, you should be thinking about. what are some things that'll be fun for. us to talk about once we're together. So, topic prep. >> That's step number one. Think ahead. >> Wow. And you could do that for anything. You could do that if you're getting. together with your family. So, if you're. tired of the same old same old with your. family, >> like think about interesting things that. you could talk about or questions to. ask. How do you even teach yourself to. be good at topic prep if you've never. even thought about this? >> You just have to start doing it.

>> What do you mean? So, a lot of people. are very averse to topic prep, especially with people they know well. They feel like they shouldn't need to. plan topics for someone that they're. very close to. They'll just know what to. talk about once they're together. >> I'm guilty of that. >> Yeah, it's normal. A lot of people feel. that way, >> which is why we then go, "How are your. kids and how is work and what's going. on? >> The weather, oh, let's talk about the. appetizer in front of us on this table.". We tend to grab things that are right. there in our environment that are easy. to talk about, but it doesn't mean it's. the right thing to talk about. It's not.

the most fun thing to talk about a. little bit of forethought. So, we have. research on this. We've studied uh. people who we ask to even spend 30. seconds 30 seconds ahead of a. conversation brainstorming possible. topics that they could talk about. Then. we let them go and have their. conversation versus people who just walk. in and have the conversation like you. normally would have. The people who have. prepped, even for 30 seconds, even if. they don't end up raising those topics, their conversation is better. It's more.

enjoyable. It's more fluent. You're less. anxious. You know those little panicky. moments when you're not sure, you know. that something's getting boring and you. need to switch, but you don't know where. to go. Yes. >> That doesn't happen anymore. You've got. options like in your back pocket, in. your mind. Oh, yeah. If there's a lag, I. need to remember to ask about their kid. who'd had tried out for the hockey team. Right. So you've always got an option, a. backup plan for the panicky moments. Turns out it makes a conversation much. more enjoyable as well. You tend to. switch topics a little more frequently.

and you're more likely to land on things. that are mutually interesting to. everybody involved. So, if the person. listening right now is super. introverted, >> yeah, >> very shy, and they're now having a panic. attack about this idea of I got to come. with topics, what is the best way to. help you become good at doing this if. you don't think that this is going to. come naturally to you? >> Totally. I think the first thing is. don't have a panic attack. This might be. the greatest ar tool that you've ever.

added to your arsenal as an introvert in. your life because so much of why. introverts feel panicked once they're in. social situations is that they don't. know what to say. They don't really want. to approach these difficult moments. Having some topics prepped eases all of. that. >> And once you experience the magic of. topic prep in action, you're like, "Oh. my god, this is it. I should have been. doing this my whole life." For the most. part, you know who you're going to see. in a day. M. >> you might know the specific people. whether it's your kids and your spouse.

and then the this set of colleagues and. then knowing who you're going to see. means that you can prep topics for all. of them in a personalized way. >> So walk me through the day. >> Yeah. Okay. So we're going through the. day. You wake up, you see your kids. before they get on the school bus and. you're talking to your spouse. Um you. can think about ahead of time what are. each of my kids doing today? Where what. are their pain points? What are they. probably feeling excited about? What are. they nervous about? what's going on in. their life? Do they have band at school? Um, instead of just being like, remember.

your trumpet? You could be like, you. know, how is band? What's going on? When. you're in band, how do you feel? What. are you looking forward to about it? Right? Like get that's going to be so. much more interesting than just like. don't don't forget your trumpet and they. rush out the door. >> Then you get to work and your colleague. who's kind of quiet. What's a topic that. you could bring up with a colleague? >> Anything. I mean, it depends on the. colleague, right? Let's imagine that. it's a colleague that you love and you. are thinking about their life. Um, they. [snorts] just had a new child. I mean, ask how that's going. You know, having a.

new child is a traumatic and dramatic. thing. How's it going? Are you changing. so many diapers? Whatever. Or they had a. big, you know, they had a big. presentation last week. Um, how did it. go? What was good about it? What was. hard? Anything I can help you with on. it? >> Now, give me one for my mom and dad. because I have the same conversation. with them over and over and over. How'd. it go? What'd you do? How was golf? What. are you doing tonight? >> You know what? So, my my sister just did. the most amazing thing with my for my. parents. She actually uh used chatbt to. ask to prep topics with them. >> How do you do that?

>> Um, so she she typed in to chatt. She. was like, "What do you think people who. live in upstate New York in their 70s. who have nine grandchildren? What are. the types of questions that they want me. to ask them?". >> What? >> Yeah. Yeah. Because you know the. internet knows that demographic better. than we as individuals could possibly. know that demographic. >> I can literally hear the person. listening tap tap tap tap tap tap tap. about everybody in their life. >> Everyone in your life. You could use it. to prep topics. You could even say um. chat tpt uh what do you think this.

colleague who doesn't really like me. because of this reason uh we got in an. argument once about this thing and now. they're mad at me. What would they want. me to do? What would they want to talk. about with me if anything? It's It's. wild. >> You know, you're really smart. You. should consider teaching a class on. this. [laughter]. >> What is the second part of the talk. framework for communicating better? >> Yeah. So, A is for asking. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Ask more questions, ask better. questions. >> Now, you're making me panic because I.

don't know if my question is going to be. better. What is a better question? >> You're already a great question asker. I. mean, look, you've prepped topics and. you're asking so many questions. We're. already off to a great start, Mel. Um, so what's so funny is a pattern that you. might pick up on here is that in every. conversation once you're in it, it's. very overwhelming. There's a you're. making tons of choices. You're trying to. listen to what the other person is. saying. You're trying to process it. You're trying to do this tiny creativity. task of how do I come up with something.

interesting to say back to them. That's. really hard on your brain. That's a lot. of cognitive effort. So, anything you. can do ahead of the conversation like. topic prep is helpful. And any sort of. trick that you can have during the. conversation can also be helpful. And. that's why asking questions is such a. superpower. You don't need to have. prepped it ahead of time. All you need. to do is listen to what your partner is. saying and ask about it. Ask more about. it. >> Huh. Well, how can asking better.

questions or asking more questions. improve connection and make you better. at communicating? Our inability to. understand other people's perspectives. is a huge barrier to conflict management. and connection. The antidote to that is. question asking. It is a direct pathway. to get what's in your head out of your. head and share it with me. Um, in my. class, we do an exercise called. neverending follow-up questions. >> Do you want I have a feel like we're. about to do this. Yes. >> Do you want to try it? >> Yes. >> Okay. I'll ask questions and you answer.

and then maybe we can switch roles. Okay. >> Okay. Um, Mel, what did you have for. breakfast this morning? >> Uh, a smoothie. >> Oh, what was in your smoothie? >> Uh, it was this protein powder and a. little bit of honey and two lemons that. we squeeze and then some water and then. zip it up and then slurp it down. >> That sounds so healthy. If you had your. dream breakfast, would it be this. protein smoothie? What would be in your. dream breakfast? >> Um, it depends on the day. I'm a very.

kind of not picky is the wrong word. I'm. the kind of person that I eat based on. my mood. So some morning's dream. breakfast would be scrambled eggs, avocado, kimchi. Another day it might be. the smoothie. Another day it might be. something else. >> Amazing. So you like variety. Uh where. do you think that like need for variety. comes from every day? Why would you be. happy having the same thing every day? >> I got to share how I feel. >> Tell me tell me how you're doing it. Tell me how it's going. >> It's amazing because I can tell you're.

really interested. And so as every. question you ask, I'm like, "Oh, she's. really interested in what I had for, oh, my breakfast is very interesting." And. so you're demonstrating that saying, "In. order to be interesting, be interested. in somebody else.". >> Exactly. And you know, we both know, we. have this common knowledge that I'm. doing this very extreme thing. I'm. asking a follow-up question every time I. talked just then. >> Yes. >> That sounds so extreme. That sounds like. a lot of questions. And it also, some of.

my students are like, "Isn't this. manipulative? If you know that that's. what you're going to do, doesn't that. undermine our authenticity? Do is the. other person going to actually feel like. you want to learn about their. breakfast?" And I'm like, "Guys, even if. you know that's what you're doing, I. still really care. I really want to hear. about your breakfast and your habits and. what you what you like. It's just a. nudge to do it a little bit better.". What if you get really good at asking. questions and you notice most people you. talk to never. ask you a question about you?

>> Listen, we've all been on that. [clears throat] date, Mel. We've all. been on a date with We call these people. ZQS. >> ZQS. >> Zero questions. Zero questioners. Um my. hope and what I want to say to the. people listening is don't leave a. conversation having asked zero. questions. But what do you do if you're. the one who's just poured into somebody. else? >> Yeah. >> And that it's like crickets. >> Yeah. Well, as in all things in life, you don't have control over what other. people do in a conversation. Reflecting.

about what you do have control over, like, okay, well, let's try and shift to. a new topic that maybe they're more. likely to ask me a question. Maybe we. shift to something where you have some. expertise and they know you have. expertise, so they should ask you even. more that you have um ask you questions. So, you shouldn't like say something. insulting back or there's no backhanded. compliment that you're teaching in at. Harvard Business School to say to. somebody. >> I No, >> I I know that was kind of a joke, but it. is annoying as hell, though. >> It's really annoying. It's really.

annoying. >> I guess you're just saying make a mental. note. >> I mean, when And in the context, let's. go back to this context of dating. If. you're on a date with somebody, they go. a whole date, two whole dates, three. whole dates, not asking you much at all. That could be a legitimate reason to not. keep dating them. Well, why would you? >> Yeah, >> if after two dates they don't ask you a. single question. >> Yeah. >> I mean, I think that's a gigantic red. flag. >> I left a date in the middle after like. 20 minutes once because. >> How did you do that? >> I excuse myself to the bathroom. I.

looked right into the mirror and I was. like, "This is never going to work. I. can't be with someone for the You can't. be with someone for the rest of your. life who within 20 minutes has made you. feel infuriated that they're not. interested in you." And so that was. that. And what we all want to know, Professor Brooks, when you walked back. to the table, what did you say? >> Yeah, I said, "This was really nice. Um, we'll follow up. Um, good luck." And I. just I left. I did text him later and I. did give him the feedback. I did say, you know, I really was It was a little.

frustrating that he didn't ask me. anything about myself. I I don't usually. do that with people, but in that case, it just seemed like he really needed to. know. >> And what did he say? >> I think he was like, "Oh, I'm so sorry.". >> Well, at least he he said something. Exactly. >> Wow. Okay. >> Still still no question though, M. >> But based on the fact that this is your. area of expertise, what do you know. >> about those situations? >> Yeah. >> Where you're either have a family member. or you have a colleague or a boss or a.

friend that actually never asks anything. about you. >> Yeah. >> Based on the research and your. experience, what is the kind interpretation. >> Yeah. >> of that situation? >> Yeah. There's a lot that holds people. back from asking questions and it's not. all disinterest. Okay. >> Um sometimes it's it's again this. self-centeredness. They so there are. some people who don't even think to ask. questions because they're so focused on. themselves and what's going on in their. own mind and what they can share and. dazzle you with. Um other times though.

people realize they should be asking. questions and they struggle to do it. because they're afraid. They're afraid. of being too intrusive. They're afraid. that they ask something that it makes. them look incompetent, like they should. already know the answer. >> Um, and these fears are usually. misplaced. Um, but those fears do hold. people back from asking questions. >> Got it. That is a kind interpretation. >> Yes, it is. >> Where does listening. >> fall into your fourpart framework? Because we've talked about topic. selection and asking questions, but what.

about listening? Yeah, it's funny that. this framework is called talk because. listening is the glue that holds it all. together. Um, it's so very important. Um, I know that you have attention. challenges. I also have attention. challenges. Turns out most humans have. attention challenges. Our minds, our. resting state of our minds is in a mind. wandering mode. And so the demand of. conversation to try and focus our. wandering minds on another person.

continuously for a whole conversation is. incredibly challenging. It's takes a lot. of hard work. Some people are better at. it than others. But if you put in that. hard work to be engaged with somebody. even while your mind is wandering um you. should get credit for it. And in our. research we've studied the ways that you. can get credit for your good listening. >> By get credit, what do you mean? So, get. credit meaning you want your partner to. know that you've that you've heard them. >> Oh god, I feel like you're in the middle. of my marriage [laughter].

because I can't tell you how many times. I've been in a conversation with my. husband and I'm doing something so I. turn my back on him. >> Yeah. >> And he's like, "Are you listening to. me?" And then I pair it back word for. word what he just said. >> Good. And then we get into this little. thing where he's like, "I didn't ask if. you heard me. >> I asked if you're listening because I. don't feel like you are.". >> Okay, let's break down listening. This.

is so this is incredibly common. Okay. >> Um, so listening is three steps. The. first step is hearing and seeing your. partner. All of the cues that the person. is giving to you, their words, the sound. of their voice, their non-verbal. behaviors, everything that comes in. through your eyes and ears, that's the. sort of physical part of listening. Then. your brain does step two, which is I'm. going to think about some of the stuff. that I'm hearing and seeing. I'm going. to elaborate on it in my mind. Step. three is this unique thing that's.

offered by conversation, which is I can. show back to you that I heard you and. that I was thinking about it. Okay? >> And that's how we get our credit. And. that's how you get our credit. So the. decades of research on active listening. have mostly focused on non-verbals. So. the fact that you turned your back on. your husband makes him feel like you're. not listening to him cuz your. non-verbals were sort of inongruent with. what was going on in your mind. >> Correct. >> Okay. So he's sort of like, well, if. you're going to put in the hard work to. actually listen to me, like why don't. turn your back on me? That makes me feel.

like you're not you don't care about. what I'm saying. >> Okay. So many decades of focus on these. non-verbal cues, making eye contact, nodding, smiling, facing someone, leaning forward as you're talking to. them. Um, that's all great. That's like. listening 101. All right. So, don't turn. your back on your husband if you're. listening to him. >> And I'm definitely not going to swivel. this chair while we're talking. [laughter]. >> Exactly. We could try it. Um, but the. listening 2011 sort of more advanced is. using your words to show someone that.

you've heard them. So while nodding and. smiling and facing someone can be faked, right? Even if you were facing your. husband, you could have been nodding and. smiling and not listening to him. >> The fact that you were able to repeat. back exactly what he said, he should be. thrilled, right? Like you really were. listening to him and you were able to. repeat it back, but you didn't make him. feel heard in that moment with your with. your non-verbal cues. >> Yeah. Because the tone of voice was. snarky. I heard everything that you. said. So that was bad on you.

>> That's part of it. Yep. That's part of. it. But this using your words is really. important. So the best listening often. is spoken. It includes repeating back. what someone has said to you. It can be. invalidating or affirming them in their. feelings, saying like, "Oh, I'm hearing. that you sound a bit a little bit sad. about that. Um, it makes sense that you. would feel sad about whatever the fact. that you didn't win the role in the. school play." Just saying that it makes. sense that you feel X about why is one. of the most powerful phrases that you. can say to another person.

>> Well, one of the most powerful things. that I hear my colleagues say at work is. what I heard you say is this. Yeah. >> And this is what I'm going to do. >> Yeah. >> Is that right? And then the second I. hear that, I'm like, "Oh my gosh.". Heard. >> Yeah. It's it's exactly right. So, they're they're affirming they're. acknowledging what you said. They're. affirming what you said. They're also. checking to make sure they've understood. you explicitly. Linguists call this. grounding. It's making sure that your. shared understanding actually is shared. and it's accurate. And if it's not. accurate, it gives you the opportunity. to repair it, to correct it and say,

"Oh, that's not actually what I meant. What I meant was this." And we're. constantly doing that checking and. repairing process while we talk to other. people. And so speaking, you're. listening is so powerful. Follow-up. questions do the same thing. You can. only follow up if you've heard what they. said before. paraphrasing. If you're in a group and a. couple other people have said something, you can say, "Okay, what I'm hearing. here is, I think we as a group feel like. we want to have fun, but we also need to. make this hard decision." Is that right?

So, just kind of summarizing what people. before you have said is another way of. doing it in the sort of group context. >> Amazing. >> Yeah. >> Since you teach this at Harvard Business. School, I would love for you to just. explain why this matters. Yeah, >> because. it may seem as though. it's a really important skill at work. >> Yeah. >> Because if you're in a meeting and.

somebody all of a sudden is summarizing. everything that they heard. >> Yeah. >> you turn and look at that person are. like, "Oh, that person's powerful.". >> Yeah. And so how does the skills that. we've talked about so far, topic. selection, asking, this active listening. that demonstrates something, translate. to more authority and influence, whether. it's at work or it's in your home or.

it's in a friendship. >> Yeah. This is where real power and. authority and influence come from. When. we think of people who are charismatic. and competent, this is what they're. doing. They are actually listening. They're putting in the hard work to. listen to other people. They're putting. in the hard work to think about it. And. then they are saying it out loud. They. are saying, "Wow, I really heard you say. this and it seemed like you maybe feel. anxious about this thing. Can you tell. me more about that?" [gasps]. >> Just being able to do that is. incredible. It that is sort of the found. what competence is when we're talking.

about interpersonal contexts. >> It's so true. So the four-part framework. of talk, what is L? >> L is levity, Mel. Thank goodness. It's. levity. And levity includes moments of. humor, but also unfunny moments of. warmth. And levity is the antidote for. boredom. >> Why is humor such a powerful tool if you. want to be better at communicating? >> Yeah. Listen, when we think of. conversations that have gone off the.

rails or have not gone well, it's very. easy to think of conversations that. seemed angry or hostile or there was. conflict or disagreement because it's so. obvious. Like you're yelling at each. other, you're arguing. >> Yeah. >> But what is a quieter killer of. conversation and probably more common. than conflict is boredom and. disengagement. We're not interested in. what we're saying to each other. And as. soon as either person becomes. disinterested, you can't have that good. connection. You can't make progress.

anymore. And levity, these fleeting. moments of sparkle and fizz, they pull. us back in. They they fix the boredom. >> Sparkle and fizz. [laughter]. >> How do you create that? Because you have. some really interesting research about. how making fun of yourself. really is a powerful thing to do. Can. you can you share a bit of this research. for us? >> Yes. Yes. So, this is something people. think about all the time. Should I. should I make fun of myself? Will that. make things feel more fun and funny? Um, so you can do it in a way, you can.

deliver it in a way that's like. self-deprecating humor. You're making. fun of yourself. You can also do it in a. way that's not funny at all, but you're. sharing your whole self, right? You're. not just talking about your successes, but also uh the failures and struggles. that you encountered on your pathway to. success. This is a particularly. effective strategy for people who. already have high status, who are. powerful, who are respected, who are. known as competent, for leaders. It's a. way to say to everybody, "Hey, look, I'm. like you, too. I'm a human being. I'm I.

don't do this thing right. Here's some. negative feedback that I got on my way. to success." Um, it's so so powerful. It. is riskier for people who are low status. to use self-deprecating humor or to rel. or to reveal their failures. When you're. low status, you have a narrower range of. options available to you that will be. seen. People might actually start to. question your competence. >> Oh, and that's why being low status. feels so limiting and so constraining. >> So, how do you as a Harvard Business.

School professor. >> define low status? Cuz I I would imagine. if we cracked open people's heads, a lot. of people are so punishing to. themselves. >> Totally. that they believe that they. have a low status based on self-doubt. But what are you talking about? >> So status for scholars is defined as. liking and respect and prestige in the. eyes of other people. >> Okay. >> Okay. So it's liking and do people.

respect me? There's really good news. here, Mel, which is. >> every group has a sort of status. hierarchy. Okay. People pretty easily. know who's high status, who's low. status, who's in the middle. But the. good news is it changes much more. frequently than you think. It changes. not only from one conversation or one. place to the next. It changes from one. topic to the next. So imagine you're in. a group, you're having a meeting, >> you're talking about something you don't.

know anything about. Mhm. >> You're low status on that topic and. there might be some rockus experts in. the room and that's intimidating and. you're like, "How can I contribute to. this? It's a terrible feeling. You feel. invisible and marginalized. >> Yep.". >> All of a sudden, the conversation shifts. to talking about, "Oh, should we update. our maternity leave policy?" And all of. a sudden, if you're the only woman in. the room, you're all of a sudden you're. at the top of the heap. Okay? You have. the most lived experience, the most. knowledge to bring to this conversation. So even if you're feeling low status on.

many topics, if all of a sudden it. switches to something else, you might. all of a sudden become high status. And. we shouldn't underestimate the value of. that when we have value to bring. If. you're sitting in a conversation with. friends or something at work and you're. feeling that low status moment like I. got nothing to contribute, is there a. Harvard Business School sentence I can. say that is like preemptive, raises my. status without revealing that I don't. know what the hell I'm talking about?

>> I think the magic trick is asking. questions really. Okay. >> Okay. So, if you're on a topic and. you're feeling like you don't know. anything, it's always valuable to ask. questions about even people who know. everything about it. It's helpful for. them to have a sounding board and. someone who's asking questions. They. don't know what other people don't know. So sometimes when you're at low status, you're in this privilege position to. say, "Look, nobody here knows what. you're talking about. Define this for. us. What What do you mean by status?". Okay, let me just highlight that because. the person listening, I really want you.

to understand this. Do you know the. confidence it displays. to be a person who really doesn't. understand what people are talking. about? And to say out loud, "Hold on a. second. You're 15 steps ahead. >> You've lost some of us in this room. Can. you please back up and explain this. because I'm not tracking?". >> Yeah. And it's not always going to be. appropriate, but sometimes it is. Well, and what that says is first of all, I.

value that I'm tracking along. And. number two, you can trust me because I'm. going to tell you when I don't know. something. And number three, I am. following with you, but I'm going to. slow you down and make sure everybody. comes along. I mean, that right there, >> yeah, >> that's how you raise your status because. it demonstrates a huge level of. confidence. >> Before we get on to K, I have one more. thing to say to these low status. friends. >> Yes, >> we are with you. We have all been low. status. Our status changes constantly.

Um, one thing before we move from away. from levity, one of the most effective. ways to raise your status is to make. people laugh. It is it I think we have. an instinct that we think of humor as. this like extra bonus thing like, oh, there's that funny guy. He made a good. joke. We're all laughing. That's great. Now, back to the real stuff. [sighs]. When we look at what's really going on. with social dynamics in our research, if. you can make people laugh even one time. in a conversation, they are so much more.

likely to vote for you as the leader of. that group. Just one joke, if you just. make people laugh, it's just a core. determinant of status, earning status, and then keeping it once you've once. you've earned it. >> I love that. So, what is the fourth. element of your four-part framework for. better communication? The fourth part is. K for kindness. And it's really this. virtue that we all learn as kids that we. should all be kind. I don't know. I.

don't know about you, Mel. I I spent my. whole life really think like what do. kind people do daytoday, moment to. moment. What are they thinking about? What are they saying? How are they. behaving? And I think one of the great. privileges of this new emerging science. of conversation is we're figuring it. out. what kind people who really care. about others how they communicate with. the people around them. So we attack. this in a very concrete way. >> So what do they do? >> Yeah. The first part is using respectful. language, right? So as soon as you cross.

over into that zone where people are. feeling hurt or harmed or otherred or. excluded or bullied, >> you have lost this kindness goal. Yep. >> You've moved beyond it. It's gone. >> And the second piece again is this uh. responsive listening. So putting in the. effort to hear other people, caring. about what they're sharing with you and. showing that you're listening to them. with your words and with your. non-verbals. >> So how can you use this framework with a. colleague? >> Every time all the time I mean you can.

use it over email, over text and face to. face. Every time you interact with a. colleague, you should be thinking what. topics are valuable to them? How can I. bring value to them? What what are they. going to find interesting and exciting? If you don't know ahead of time, you can. just ask them, "What are you excited. about lately? How can I be helpful? What. can I do? Um, what's going on? What are. you struggling with right now that I. might be able to help with?" Right? It's. just incredible. >> How do you use the kindness part with. your partner? >> Oh my gosh. The thing that makes.

kindness so hard is that it is effortful. and it's constant. We have to battle. against all of these other things that. are draining our resources, especially. with someone you live with, right? you're you see them all the time. >> And so it's it's a big ask to say, well, be kind all the time to this person. Put. in all of this effort all the time. But. I think trying to get over our. self-centered, our self-focus and really. trying to understand what our partner. cares about, figure out what they need,

whether it's just a hug or it's just a. cup of coffee, um figure out what they. need and help them get it. So, if. somebody is listening right now and. they're in a relationship where the. communication isn't working, >> yeah, >> you're frustrated, you misunderstand. each other, everything becomes some. stupid thing. What is your advice based on your. research on the science of. communication?

>> Yeah, it sounds like that kind of. relationship sounds like you're stuck in. a bad equilibrium, a bad sort of. >> What does that mean? So, you're stuck in. the you've developed habits in a. specific relationship that aren't. working for you. Yep. Right. And you and. then every time you see that person, you. might fall back into that same habits. where you're getting defensive. You're. lashing out. You're making accusations. rather than these ideals that we're. trying to live up to of like, I want to. be interested in you. I want to figure. out your needs and help you. You've. fallen into the opposite. Yes. Right. >> So, there's a couple of things. One is.

uh we talk a lot about the power of. apologies. Um, and and this would be an. example when you could say, "It seems. like we've really fallen into some bad. habits where we're really getting. defensive or lashing out and arguing all. the time. What would it take for us to. sort of shift that? How can we get into. a different pattern? How can we change. our habits with each other? >> It's going to require that both people. buy into it. >> because conversation is co-constructed. It means that they have to buy in, you. have to buy in, and you both have to.

try. And if you can't shift out of that. equilibrium, that's often when you know. relationships part ways. >> Of course, cuz why would you want to be. in a relationship where. >> it's not rewarding. >> It's not rewarding. You're both not. working on it. I want to go into some of. the most asked questions on a. communication. I mean, these are the. things that people write in about. They. go crazy viral and they want to know. Okay, so small talk. is so draining. Everybody hates it. What does your.

research have to say about small talk. and why it matters? >> For all of the people who hate small. talk, you're right. It sucks. It's It's. shallow. It's meaningless. It feels like. there's this alarm bell going off on. your mind of like, why can't we get past. this? Why can't we get to the real. stuff? I want We all want the real. stuff. How can I get there? But also, you cannot avoid small talk. It's how. every conversation starts between. strangers, between people who haven't. seen each other in a while, even people.

who've seen each other earlier in the. day. You usually start when you see him. at night and say, "How was your day?". >> Right? >> It is a well-worn social ritual and it's. important because it's the place where. we search for better things. >> Okay. >> Okay. It's the It's the easy warmup. >> It's the warm-up. It's the It's where we. are. It's the pregame, right? It's a. it's the warm-up and we're searching for. ways to get to more meaningful talk. We. talk about in in my course and in my. book, we talk about a topic pyramid. Okay, the topic pyramid has three.

layers. >> Okay, the bottom layer is small talk. topics. These are topics you can talk. about with anyone. It's the weather, it's the weekend, whatever you're. eating, easy stuff that you could talk. about with anybody. >> Yep. >> They're not evil. They're not bad. They. are often unrewarding, but they're a. place where you are should be searching. to climb the pyramid to the second tier, which is more tailored talk. It's more, it can be include more disclosure about. your own life. It can be more. personalized. It might just be a topic. you're excited about. Has nothing about,

you know, sharing about your life. You're just some, it's something your. partner's really jazzed about. >> So, this this second layer of the. pyramid is where your topic preparation. comes in. Correct. >> And asking questions come in. >> You could prep small talk topics, too. that could that are more likely to be. launch pads to the second lay. So a. question like Mel, what are you good at. that you really hate doing? >> Picking up the dog poop. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Hate it. [laughter]. >> But I bet you're great at it. I mean,

how. >> Yeah, cuz I don't want to step in it, but I don't like it. >> And then I would ask a question like, uh, how many dogs you have or like how. often do you have to pick up its poop? Or like right now we're. >> It's amazing how much dogs poop. Like. it's unbelievable. >> Absolutely. Has it ever made you feel. like you just don't want dogs anymore? Yes. So, we're very quickly going to get. to a place where I start to figure out. how you really feel about animals, how. you really feel about caretaking, how. you feel about cleaning up your kids. dirty diapers. Like, we're going to get. to a place that feels much more.

personal. And that opening question is. that was a small I could have asked. >> What was the question again? I've. already forgot it because I was. interested in what we were talking. about. >> Interesting. Yeah. So, it was um what. are you good at that you don't like. doing? What are you good at that you. don't like? >> You could also ask um what are you bad. at that you'd like to get better at? >> Uh Spanish. >> Great. >> I don't know it, so I'm really. [laughter] bad at it. >> Buenos. That's So anyway, so there are there are. open-ended questions that would that are.

small talk topics that should be thought. of as sort of like launching pads that. we're moving to the second tier that. becomes more personalized. I'm learning. so much about you and your life so. quickly. What are you good at that you. don't like doing? >> Oh, giving birth. >> Oh, [laughter] I guess you popped out. three kids, so you are pretty good at. that. >> I think what do I what am I good at that. I don't like doing? Oh, man. Running. Probably. I love walking. I don't love. running. Yeah, same. >> Yeah, I. >> Why do you run if you don't like it? >> Exact hard on myself. I want to be in.

good shape. But I stopped. As I've been. getting older, I'm realizing you don't. need to do those things. >> Nope. Especially as your hormones. change. Exactly. And walking is so. lovely. I I love walking. And so now I'm. gentler with myself and like it's not a. failure to walk. >> Nope. >> It's a win. >> What is the top layer of the pyramid? >> Top layer of the pyramid is um deep. talk. We were getting there. We were. getting really close. Um the more. follow-up questions you ask, the more. likely you are to get to that top. You.

know it when you're there, Mel. It feels. >> I almost pretended to be your therapist. I was about to go deep into them. Why. you're so [laughter] hard on yourself? And I'm like, "Yeah, I don't know if. Professor Brooks wants me to go there. >> We could we could do it." [laughter] Um, but you know, when you're at that deep. talk with a friend, with a therapist, with your parents, whatever. It's not. every conversation is bound to go there. You don't need to have a deep. conversation with, you know, your. barista or even your work colleagues. >> because people would file a restraining. order against you for [laughter] like. really making them uncomfortable. >> Sometimes it's not their business,

right? There are some contacts where. it's appropriate and called for and. magical and some where it's not. But. when you do find yourself there, you. should appreciate it. It's really. special. It's like we're all on these. journeys looking for those magical. moments of connection and sometimes they. happen. Professor Brooks, what do you do. if you're in a situation where someone. is dominating the conversation and it's. really hard to get a word in? Like how. do you effectively communicate with. somebody who's a bit of a bulldozer? Can. I ask you a follow-up question before I.

answer, which is. >> when you're thinking of people. dominating a conversation, >> it's almost always in a group. Are you. imagining a group? >> Yeah, I guess I am. Cuz I'm imagining. being at like a cocktail party. >> Yeah. >> And people are kind of standing in a. little bit of a circle. >> Yep. Maybe a work meeting. >> Or a work meeting. >> Yep. >> And you know, of course, my fear is that. most people that I know think it's me. >> I was going to say, have you been guilty. of this yourself? Oh, in the past, of.

course, when I've had too much to drink. Definitely. Um, I work hard at listening. at work rather than talking. >> That's right. And it is hard work, especially for someone who has a lot to. say, has a lot of ideas, who is high. status or is in the habit of sharing uh. what's on their mind. So, I ask you this. question because when we think of. dominating airtime, it's almost always. in a group. M when you are in a. one-on-one conversation, we have easier. tools to interrupt someone or to sort of.

plow over them and or even a little bit. signal that they're talking too much, right? It's easier in a group. It's. maddening. You have way less control. over stopping someone. And it's really. hard for high status people to give. other people that space. I too have to. work very hard to not talk too much in a. group setting. I got a lot to say and a. lot of energy, right? And that takes. effort and it's like a skill unto itself. to give other people that space.

>> So, let's say that you're going to a. family gathering. >> Yeah. >> And there's a particular person in your. family. >> Yeah. >> Who just holds court. >> Yeah. >> Nobody can get in a word edge-wise. >> We all know. We all know Uncle Paulie. Yeah. Yeah. >> So, based on your research, Professor. Brooks, what do you do? One idea is going back to the asking. maxim. When you're in a group, you have. these opportunities. You can turn the. attention to someone else very.

deliberately and say, "Sarah, I was I. wanted to hear about what I wanted to. hear about that basketball team you're. coaching. What can you tell us about. that?" you are able to literally turn. the entire group's attention to someone. else and to a new topic so that that. person cannot cannot continue to. dominate the conversation. >> And if you're listening and not watching. this on YouTube, I want to make sure you. know that what Professor Brooks did is. she literally turned her body and held.

up her hand and pointed at another. person. >> Yeah. both verbally and physically just. directing the traffic in a different. direction. >> and that's what we're doing in groups. We are d we are all directing traffic. We are stewards of the conversation. especially non-verbbally. Okay. So we. have some research about eye gaze in. particular. This is something high. status people can do really really well. Human beings have a tendency to look. with their eyes at the highest status.

members of the group. You expect them to. speak more. they do speak more and you. tend to look at them for their. reactions. This makes the low status. people in the group feel invisible. because they literally are invisible. Nobody's looking at them and it makes. them feel like even when they have. something great to say, they shouldn't. say it. They're not welcome to say it. No one's inviting them to speak with. their gaze. So, we ran experiments where. we had leaders of a group very. purposefully make more equitable eye. gaze with everyone in the group. And it.

meant that later in the conversation, those low status group members were more. likely to speak without the leader. saying a word, without them cold calling. them and saying, "Hey Sarah, we haven't. heard from you in a while. What's on. your mind?" Which is mortifying, by the. way, if you call on them in a moment. when they don't have something to add. But I gaze is this much more gentle, more subtle way of saying, "Hey, I see. you. I care about you. I want to hear. from you.". >> Professor Brooks, how do you handle. being interrupted? >> [laughter].

>> I love being interrupted. Um. >> I mean like a person who doesn't. So. most women as you know are interrupted. at work and by their families more than. men. >> Yeah. >> And so how do you handle somebody who. interrupts you? >> So let me make the distinction that you. even we just had a little moment of. misunderstanding I want to call out. which is there are two different types. of interruptions. One is an on topic. interruption. You're staying on the same. topic. You're just like finishing each. other's sentences. It's bubbling. It's.

fun. It's exciting. It's great. That's a. great type of interruption. We should do. more of that. And I love interacting. with people who are so engaged in what. I'm saying that they're they interrupt. me before I can finish. That's great. Off-topic interruptions are the ones. that give interruptions a bad rap. It's. like somebody doineering cuts you off, is clearly not interested in what you're. saying, and shifts the conversation to. something else entirely. It's rude. It. makes you feel devalued and disrespected.

and no one should be doing that. Um, if. someone does that, I would try and make. a joke about it uh in the moment. I if. you're feeling like upset about it, you. could be like, "Well, let me uh I was. just going to finish my thing." You. know, you could kind of make a joke. about it because everybody else who's in. the group has seen this dynamic now play. out and you're all in on it. And are you. going to call it out or are you going to. let it slide and sort of be happy to sit. in this low status position? I'm not. happy to sit there and I really don't.

want other people to sit there either. >> What would your counsel be to the person. listening? Because I think most people. that it gets done to, you feel so. disempowered you can't make a joke about. it. M. >> so is there something if you're going to. a family function or you have meetings. at work and you just know that this is a. dynamic with a particular person that. you can rehearse that not only gives you. a response but actually raises your. status or somehow makes you feel a.

little bit more powerful. >> Here's what I would do really. Um, I. spent so many years of my career in a. low status position. And I think one. thing I found very comforting is knowing. that you have good relationships with. the other people in the room. And so. what you could do is go to your work. bestie who's also going to be there and. say, you know, this guy always cuts me. off. It's really upsetting. I don't feel. comfortable making a joke out of it. I. do not feel comfortable giving him that. feedback, but it really is upsetting to.

me. So, I'm wondering if if the. opportunity presents itself, if you. could say something like, and it doesn't. need to be offensive. It doesn't need to. be aggressive. It could just be like, "Oh, I'd actually really love to hear. what Allison was going to I would love. to hear Allison finish what she was. saying.". >> Oo, that's. >> And now you're really collaborating in. the conversation. And it's and and. friends want to do that for you, right? And it's sincere. She probably does want. to hear what you were going to. [laughter] say. And by the way, that's. an example of tea in the four-part. framework, which is you just thought of. a topic and you've prepared for it and.

now you're ready for it. >> Um, Professor Brooks, what are some. strategies you can use based on your. research if somebody belittles you, >> you know, whether it's like your mom. commenting on your weight or. I'm the primary bread winner and there. are these little digs that family. members make at my husband Chris. Like. what is the response to belittlement? >> You know what? It's it it's so often. that the people we love the most and are. closest to are the victims of these.

little moments of belittlement because. they kind of leak out. Usually when. someone. >> is making a belittling comment, it's. really not about whatever they're. talking about. It's about something. deeper that they're it's it's really. it's usually about them, right? That. they're feeling insecure about something. and they're taking it out on you. Mhm. >> This is true of all moments of. difficulty in conversation is for. whatever reason we have the tendency to. have these moments that shoot down to. these hurtful parts of our identities.

When I used to teach negotiation, it was. so, you know, when you're negotiating. for a house, it's so obviously fraught. and hard. But what I find so much more. interesting are these little moments and. conversations that should be easy and. fun. and all of a sudden someone makes a. little belittling comment and you're. like, "Whoa, I thought this was supposed. to be fun and easy and sort of routine. What's going on here?" That can shoot. down to our identities of this sort of. hot magma at the core of who we are in. hurtful ways. And in those moments, we. tend to be very defensive.

>> Yeah. Or quiet, silenced, >> attacked. So, there's a really exciting. emerging science of receptiveness here. that can help us. um scientists Hannah. Collins, uh Mike Yman's, Julia Mson have. studied what good conversationalists, kind people, how they manage these. moments when all of a sudden things get. heated for whatever reason. >> What do you do? >> Um and they looked at the language that. people use uh to confront this. And. there's a really concrete recipe of.

being receptive to an opposing viewpoint. that can help so that the conversation. doesn't escalate and get overheated in. that moment. And it's quite a a skill. set to develop. It makes me feel more. confident to engage. >> What is it? >> So the first piece is acknowledgement. Saying I think I heard you say here what. I'm hearing is right. So going back to. this acknowledgement affirmation. It. makes sense that you would feel that. way. Like maybe sometimes I'm not doing. enough. It makes sense that you feel. that way, but you saying that also makes.

me feel a certain way. But affirming. their feelings before you go on to. disagree with them. >> and say you're a piece of for. saying that. No, you're not supposed to. say that [laughter] part. [gasps]. >> No, I mean I think you can even say that. like it makes sense that you feel that. way and also it's not a particularly. kind you can see why I would be upset by. it. It both can be true, right? It makes. sense that you feel this way. It makes. sense that you're stressed or tired and. you said something that you probably. wouldn't say if you were not stressed or. tired. That all makes sense. You're I. realize you're a human being and I love.

and respect you, but also what you just. said was hurtful to me. if you can come. with that mindset. So acknowledgement, affirmation, um positive framing. There. are words that they call um oh gosh, it's like dogmatic or explaining words. So words like because and therefore are. very hard to be on the receiving end of. that express too much certainty. Like. you're wrong because of this, therefore. I'm not talking to you anymore. Those. are escalation words. They're expressing.

too much certainty, too much sort of. righteousness, and they're very hard to. hear. On the other end, there's a. strategy that I like to use that. combines all of these receptiveness, all. the receptiveness language, and that's. dividing yourself into multiple parts in. the moment. >> Let me give an example cuz I think this. is something a lot of people struggle. with. >> Yeah. Let's just say that. it's coming from a place of concern, but it is, you know, some sort of. comment like, "I just don't understand.

why you can't meet somebody.". >> Mhm. >> Or, "Why do you stay in that job. when they don't pay you what you. deserve?". >> Yeah. And you know what's funny? These. comments that are so hurtful, it's. coming from a place of love. They want. you to meet somebody because they want. you to be happy and they think you're. great. >> But it's still annoying that they're. saying it. And so how can I use this. framework if I'm saying to you like why. haven't you met somebody? I just don't. understand it. >> So you in that moment could say as your.

daughter I am so grateful that you love. me so much that you want me to meet. somebody and you think I'm so great that. I deserve to be with somebody. at the. same time putting on my whatever. therapist hat, friend hat, feedback. giver hat, um you could see why maybe. that like saying this to me isn't. actually that helpful to me in this. moment. So saying like affirming them. before then going on and saying also I. don't find that very motivating. Like I. don't find this very helpful to me. I.

find this dividing yourself into. multiple parts so helpful because it's. true. I always feel that way. I always. want to support my friends and loved. ones. I always understand where they're. coming from and also what they're saying. is often not nice. So, being able to. express both of those sentiments within. the same breath can be really, really. empowering. And if you're going to be. going into a situation where somebody. does this a lot, you can kind of. prepare. >> Yes, you can. and know that if they say.

this thing, whether it's about your job. or about your health or about your. relationship status, that you can. acknowledge and then go and not that. helpful. >> Yeah. >> Not that helpful. >> Now, if it's somebody who you've tried. this approach, you've tried to give them. this feedback, they keep doing it or. they keep, you know, raising topics you. don't want to argue over, it is actually. okay to not engage with them about it. You know, if your parents keep bringing. up their different political views, you. don't have to engage with them about it. That's fine. You don't have to.

>> But how about you using the science of. of communication? >> Yeah. >> Do that without just being like, I agree. to disagree. I guess we see things. differently. No, seriously, like there's. so much stonewalling. Yeah. >> Of each other. >> It helps to have, again, back to this. tea, if you have other good topics, it. helps a lot to just move quickly to a. different topic that is actually. mutually rewarding for you instead of. uh, you know, proliferating on this. I. don't want to talk about this or. arguing, arguing. No, no, just shift. like, hey, have you what TV show are you.

watching these? I've been watching this. really cool TV show. Can I tell you. about it? >> So, direct the traffic in a different. direction. >> Exactly. >> What does the science of conversation. say about someone who's very. argumentative or raise their tone of. voice? What should you do if somebody. starts yelling at you or they're or. they're like I used to be. You get. aggravated. You're like, ah. And the. volume goes up. >> Yeah. So, we talk about this wheel of. feelings. I've done so much research on. these high arousal emot negative. emotions, whether it's anxiety or anger. or just being upset. Um, there are lots.

of emotion regulation strategies that. you can use during a conversation as. well. Um, you can try and just shift, reframe the situation, change the. situation. >> Is it [clears throat] okay to ever just. say, "I'm happy to talk to you, but not. when you use this tone of voice.". >> Yeah. A therapist will often talk about. getting into the sort of like green zone. and it can take like 20 minutes to for. your body to calm down. Once someone is. upset, it's almost like too late. You. It's very hard to engage once once.

someone is angry or overheated. >> Yeah. >> Instead of saying like, "Let's just take. a time out. Let's calm down a little. bit. Let's circle back to this in a. little bit when we're both okay. Let's. take a break." Um and that's exactly. right. You It's easy to do in a. conversation. You can change it. Let's. go for a walk. Let's go to a different. room. I'm going to go get a drink and. then I'm going to come back and we. >> A very stiff one. >> A very stiff drink. [laughter]. >> Just kidding. I'll make it worse. >> Come back and let's pick this up. Um or. even see if you want to keep talking. about it by then. >> How can you make it sure that you always.

have something interesting to talk. about? >> Oh, so two answers to this. First, as. always, topic prep is your friend, right? So, thinking ahead about things. that the other person will find. interesting or exciting to talk about. But the second part of my answer is that. it's almost the wrong question. That's. the it's the wrong mindset. Huh? The key. to being a good conversationalist is not. about being interesting. It's about. being interested in the other person. So. if you go in with this mindset of like.

how do I be, you know, Mr. or Mrs. cool? How do I be charismatic? How do I bring. all the funny stories? Even the mindset. of how do I be funny is not correct. The. the goal is how do I be optimally. interested in the other person? How do. we together find the fun? Not not how do. I be funny? >> And that feels a lot less full of. pressure because if I look at you as the. source of everything interesting to talk. about, then all I have to do is ask. questions and be interested. >> And every person on the earth is the. ultimate source of being. Everyone has.

so many lived experiences that you can. learn from everyone. And they are just. like an endless font of things to be. discovered through question asking. >> How can you exit a conversation. gracefully? There's really nice research on. conversational endings that has come to. light in the last 5 years. When you. think of conversation as this almost. impossible to solve coordination. problem, the final coordination decision. is when to leave. It's why it always. feels so awkward and weird because I. can't possibly know when you want to be.

done. You can't know when I'm need to be. done or want to be done. So, we just. need to get comfortable with the fact. that like you're never going to get it. right. Nobody knows when to end a. conversation. Most people are always. going to be dissatisfied. They might. have wanted it to be longer. They might. have wanted it to be shorter. So, embracing and accepting that. awkwardness, that difficulty, just. saying, "Nobody knows." We're just going. to say, "This was great. I loved it. I. can't wait for the next one. Bye. That's. it. That's it." End. >> This was great. I can't wait for the.

next one. I love it. So, if you could. leave the person who's listening to us. right now, >> Yeah. with one takeaway or one lesson or. one thing to do that leverages the. science of conversation. and it will make their life a little. better. What would that one thing be? >> Oh, it's so hard to pick just one. I. think it would be thinking ahead a. little bit more, >> prepping topics, giving even a little.

bit of forethought to the people you're. going to see in a day. Think a little. bit about what they're going to find. interesting and productive to talk. about. You could write it down in your. Google calendar notes. You could write. on a little piece of paper. Just think. it in your head. You're more likely to. have a better conversation once you're. together with them. >> And what are your parting words? >> My parting words are about grace. So, I. think because we learn to talk to each. other when we're toddlers and we spend.

our whole lives talking to each other. every day with a huge array of partners, by the time we get to be adults, we feel. like we should be perfect at it or we. should be great at it and it's second. nature and we should be experts. But. when you look under the hood of. conversation, you realize actually. conversations are kind of a train wreck. We're interrupting each other all the. time. We have halffinish ideas and we're. not making sense a lot of the time. And. so I think giving yourself a little bit. more grace that you're not perfect. You're never going to be perfect. Even.

the best communicators aren't perfect. And giving other people more grace. They're going to say they're going to. say things that make you mad. They're. going to say things that hurt your. feelings. And it's okay. This is how. this works. If it's born of love, count. yourself lucky. >> Professor Allison Woodbrooks, this has. been great. >> Thank you so much for looking forward. [laughter] to seeing you again. >> [laughter]. >> Bye. Bye.

And I would uh be remiss if I also. didn't say thank you to you. This has. been great. And I'm really proud of you. for taking the time to listen to. something that will absolutely improve. your life. And everything that Professor. Brooks poured into us today, I hope you. try it. I hope you plan your topics. because being a better communicator will. improve your life. And in case no one. else tells you, I wanted to be sure to. communicate and tell you that I love you.

and I believe in you and I believe in. your ability to create a better life. So. take everything you just learned and go. use it to make your life better. And. I'll be waiting for you in the very next. episode as soon as you hit play. I'll. see you there. Thank you for being here. with me on YouTube and thank you for. watching all the way to the end. Wasn't. it so cool to get all of these. strategies and insight from a professor. at Harvard Business School? I love this. kind of stuff and I know you love it. too. So, thank you for watching. Thank.

you for being here till the end. Thank. you for sharing this with people in your. life who you know deserve this. information too. And one more thing, it. is a goal of mine that 50% of the people. that watch this channel are subscribers. and it's free. So, I know you're the. kind of person that loves supporting. people that support you. I know you love. getting all these incredible videos with. worldrenowned experts. And so, one thing. you could do for me, just hit subscribe. It tells me that you really love what. we're doing here, and it helps support. my team in bringing you new videos every.

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