How to Build a Life That Matters & Get What You Want Starting Today

there's a project or a goal or there's. something important to [music] you that. you just can't seem to find the time to. get to. There's always an excuse [music]. why you can't get it done. Well, that's. going to change right now. You're about. to meet one of my mentors, the one and. only Seth Goden. He's written more than. 20 best-selling books. He's considered. the godfather of modern marketing. But. to me, his work has been pivotal [music]. in teaching me how to stop hiding and.

how to start leading, creating, and. living a bigger, bolder life. The only. place to begin is where you are. If. you're waiting to get to somewhere else. before you begin, you're never going to. get there. If we're going to do. something important, [music] there's. going to be resistance. If you don't. feel resistance, it might not be. important enough. Okay, two words. You. ready? >> Yes. >> Pick yourself. The dominant system wants. you to wait to be invited to go on a. reality show, to be invited to apply for.

a job. They want you to go to the. placement office and wait for the. company to come interview you. The idea. that someone else will pick you and. authorize you. They will call you up and. they say, "Mel, we know you have a novel. in you. Would you please write the novel. and we will publish it?" The end. It's really awkward to say, "Yeah, I. picked myself. I wrote this here. I made. this." No one's forcing you to not wait. You're choosing to wait. What a safe, lovely place to hang out.

Congratulations. You've built a perfect. place to hide. Go make a ruckus is. simple. It's work that matters for. people who care. >> Hey, it's Mal and I am so excited to. learn from Seth Goden, to be inspired. You are not going to be the same person. after watching this today. But here's. the thing. My team just told me that 57%. of you that watch the Mel Robbins. podcast here on YouTube are not. subscribers. So, here's how you know. you're not a subscriber. [clears throat]. The button is lighting up right now. It.

is free to hit subscribe. I know you're. the kind of person that loves supporting. people who support you. So, I want to. thank you in advance. Thank you for. hitting subscribe. It's the best way to. show our team that you love what we're. doing. It also supports us in helping. you bring worldclass, worldrenowned. experts like Seth Goden. 20 best-selling. consecutive books in a row. He's about. to pour into you like you've never felt. before. I don't want you to miss a. thing. That's why hitting subscribe. matters. Thanks for doing that. All. right, let's get into the show. Seth.

Goden, welcome to the Mel Robbins. podcast. >> Dream come true. Thank you for having. me, Mel. It's a dream come true because. more than anyone else. I I'm I'm going to start crying and. we're talking. More than anyone else, you have. really taught me um. how to overcome fear and resistance and. put art out into the world. you have um.

taught me everything I know about how I. think about making an impact with people. and communicating and marketing and. having courage and um I'm really proud. that you're here because our company 143. Studios and this podcast is run by. people who are students of yours. I. can't wait to see the impact that this.

conversation has on absolutely anyone. and everyone that listens to it, that. watches it. It is my mission that. together we ignite a bonfire inside. someone's soul and they not just listen. but they do something with it. >> Thank you. One of the measures of my. work is not um what happens if I teach. somebody, it's what they teach other. people. And you have taught so many.

millions of people and it's just a. thrill to be in the same room with you. >> All [snorts] right. I think I Let's do. this. [laughter]. >> There we go. >> As you say, let's make a ruckus. Um, what could be different about my life if. I take everything to heart that you're. about to teach and share with me today. and the person who's listening and. watching right now? What could change? You know, if you think about whatever.

situation you're in, whether it's at. work or at home, is there anything you. could do to make it worse? Is there. anything you could tell yourself? A. story you could tell yourself or an act. you could accomplish that would make it. worse? And I think we can all agree the. answer is of course. Well, by that. measure, then there are things you can. do to make it better. And you can make. it better by choosing intentionally a. strategy. And maybe we can rewire the. story we're telling ourselves and not be. a victim or a cog in an existing system,

but build something that's generative. and makes things better for people who. care. And that might sound like a tall. order, but if we can make things worse. much with hardly any effort, we can. probably make things better as well. I've never really thought about it that. way. That is true. Like if if you just. really ponder that question, how could I. make my life worse? I could come up with. a hundred things that would make it way. worse today. >> Yeah. And yet.

we do not really stop and think about. the endless ways that you could make. your life, your work, your relationships. better. Given how many people you have. taught, given how many people who have. been impacted by your work, just to open. up the aperture of possibility for. somebody, what are some of the wide. ranging things that people have made. better by embracing so many of the.

concepts that we're about to dig into. today? It's tempting to just, you know, point to numbers and, you know, what did. you grow? How big was your organization? But I think it all starts at home. It. all starts with the first noise we hear. in our head when we wake up and the last. thing we say to someone we care about. when we go to bed. And all of that is. fueled by the story we tell ourselves. The story of being a victim or the story. of being an architect. the story of. saying that person, that one right.

across the table from me, under the. circumstances, they are doing their very best. I can't. change them, but I can change the. circumstances. And so, we begin. by realizing that people who have had. much worse things happen to them than. you or to me or to you have somehow. figured out a way to thrive. to thrive. given where they are right now. Cuz the. only place to begin is where you are. If.

you're waiting to get to somewhere else. before you begin, you're never going to. get there. We have to start where we. are. Acknowledge what's happening right. around us and then make a choice. Make a. choice about whether we want to change. things or whether we want them to stay. the same. But you're only a victim if. you want to be. I don't think anyone likes to hear. you're only a victim if you want to be. >> Well, let me be really clear. I won the. birthday lottery. I won the parent.

lottery. I was born with, you know, so. many advantages compared to people. around me or people through the ages. There are people right now who are in. relationships that are abusive. They're. in debt up to their eyeballs. They're. dealing with physical or mental. disabilities. All of those things are. true. And then what are you going to do? Right? And then what are you going to. do? So I'm using the word victim very. carefully here. I'm not saying that bad. things don't happen. They do. They often.

happen to people who don't deserve it. What I'm saying is how should we process. what just happened? Should we add a butt. or an and? Right? I'm on vacation but. it's raining means my vacation is. ruined. But if it's I'm on vacation and. it's raining, it means I've opened up. the door to now what am I going to do. with that? >> Can you give me a couple other examples. of the power of but versus and?

>> Those words do a lot of heavy lifting in. many sentences, in many stories we tell. ourselves, right? I want this person to. have exactly the wedding they want, but. I also want it to fit into my budget and. be the wedding I want. Well, that word. but is doing a lot of heavy lifting. And. this is one of the key things that's. unlocked with the let them theory, which. is you can let people do things, but you. can't have your butt at the same time. You can't have your and at the same.

time. There are things that are in front. of us that are problems, and there are. things that are in front of us that are. situations. Problems have solutions. Situations do. not. So if it's a situation, we have no. choice but to accept it because it has. no solution. But if it's a problem, it. can be solved. You might not like the. solution, but it can be solved. And so. my takeaway from your brilliant book is.

if that person's going to do what. they're going to do, I can treat it like. a situation. I can have a big fight. about it. Well, I can realize they're. going to do what they're going to do. and my solution to the problem is to let. them. >> What is the difference between a. solution and a situation? Because I was. sitting here going, "Huh? A situation is something that you can't. change or control." Is that what you're. saying? >> Correct. So, I trained as a mechanical. engineer years and years ago in college.

You can't rewrite the laws of physics. >> You can't be in two cities at the same. time. You can't persuade a company to. buy something from you if they don't. want to buy it from you. Those are. situations. >> Problems have solutions. You just might. not like them in the short run. But. there is a way forward if you're willing. to accept an outcome that isn't the one. you've been dreaming of. And so what I'm trying to do is let you. off the hook if it's a situation. Okay, I can't change this, but it means I have.

to accept it. or put you on the hook if. it's a problem and say, "Yeah, if this. is a problem, I might not like the. solution. I'm probably I have a solution. in mind that I don't want to do, but I. know what I could do. I just don't like. it." Still a solution. Breakups, taking better care of yourself, sticking to a budget, putting yourself. out there and risking the, you know, judgment of other people. These are all. problems, but they have a solution. We.

just don't want to do it. >> Yeah. So, a simple technical one, uh, if. you're willing to have an uncomfortable. conversation with your boss for 15. minutes a year, you'll make more money. because in those 15 minutes, you can. share your honest truth about where you. are and where you want to go. But if. it's too much trouble and too scary to. do that, then you should settle for what. you have. So, the solution to the salary. negotiation is there's probably going to. be an awkward conversation. >> The same thing's true if your spouse.

loads the dishwasher in a way that you. find really annoying, but you want them. to just know that. You don't want to go. through the 10 minutes of hassle to talk. about it. Well, we know what the. solution is. Tell the truth. have a. respectful conversation, offering the. other person empathy, but letting them. hear what you need to say, you've solved. the problem. It just wasn't fun to solve. the problem. >> Well, most problems aren't all that fun. to solve until you solved them. >> The easy ones are already gone. Yeah,

>> that's true. So, you talked about noise. and one of the things that your work has. taught me is just how much resistance. I was manufacturing. and putting in my own way. And when you. first bump into your work, Seth, it can. feel very confronting and you start to. read Seth's stuff and you're like, "But. who the hell does it? Solutions, problems, noise. I he has no idea." And.

then you start to really consider all of. the resistance that you have to that. list of things that you can generate. that would make a situation better. I. would love to just start to pull that. apart because that's had the single. biggest impact on me is really. being truthful with myself about how. much I am in my own way and how much I.

blame my stuff on other people and other. things when it's really none of those. things at all. The word resistance means. anything that we do to get in our own. way to keep us from doing something. that's going to scare us. And so let's talk about writer's block. Writer's block was only invented 100. years ago. We know who named it. Uh the. woman who wrote Frankenstein's uh. nerdwell poet husband. And writer's. block is based on the idea that you just.

don't have the muse telling you what to. write today. This is nonsense. There's. no such thing as writer's block. What. happens is if it feels important, if. writing a memo feels important, if. painting something feels important, if. going on a date with someone you've. always wanted to go on a date with and. it's tomorrow night feels important, we. do something internally to insulate. ourselves, to protect ourselves, to keep. us from being on the hook because we got. indoctrinated by school to do that.

Because factory workers don't have to be. on the hook. They just have to do what. they're told. But it's also, I think, part of human nature. And resistance then is something that we. cannot make go away. If we're going to. do something important, there's going to. be resistance. If you don't feel. resistance, it might not be important. enough. So the question then is, what do. you do when it shows up? And the answer. is you say, "Thank you. Thanks for. letting me know I'm on the verge of.

doing something important. Thanks for. reminding me that this needs to be on. the top of my priority list. The things. I'm procrastinating, I'm procrastinating. because of resistance. And so I now have. a compass. And the compass points me to. the hard work to be done. And hard work, I think, is is worth talking about for a. minute. Hard work in the old days was. how many pounds of gravel can you carry. on your back because we don't have any. machines. But now hard work is did I come up with.

a solution that's not on the list of. solutions? Did I tell the truth in a way. that the other person could hear? Did I. make a good decision? Did I write. something that's never been written. before? Sing something that's never been. sung before. Paint something that's. never been painted before. That's our. job. And so when we think about how do. we engage with our family? Well, if. we're just going to, you know, put the. stuff in the microwave oven, check all. the boxes, and then sit down and watch. three hours of streaming every night,

you're fitting in. You're making all the. companies happy, but you're not facing. the resistance, which is what is the. work that needs to be done that I'm. afraid of? Why is. doing the work that you're afraid of. doing. the secret to a more fulfilling life? Because you could mistake. the word work for something related to.

your career or something that is on your. to-do list. But I know that you're. talking about something at a way more. fundamental level, >> right? >> That is about your experience of being. alive. >> Yes. >> And your experience of yourself as. you're going through this life. So, can. we go deeper into what that means? What. the work is? I don't know anybody who. wants to spend the rest of their life.

sitting on a beach having a way to bring. them my ties every day. You're not. allowed to do anything else. I think. that would drive almost everyone crazy. When we have a chance to be productive. in whatever form that is, whether or not. we are getting paid for it, we have a. chance to be fully alive. It could be. the pottery you make in your spare time. or the way you are raising your kids. It. could be the fact that you volunteer at. the local animal shelter. That's work.

You're doing it because the work needs. to be done and doing it well is. gratifying. There's a magical side effect. And the. side effect is this gratifying life. translates into a whole bunch of side. effects like more respect, like more. independence, like more resilience in. the bank because the universe can't wait. for people to show up who do good work. They will line up outside your door and.

offer you friendship or respect or even. money if you are the person who's. willing to do the things other people. are afraid to do. One of the things that is interesting is. that if you think about something that. you know is important to you, whether. it's cleaning out the attic now that the. kids are gone, nobody else seems to care. about, but this just nags at you, or. it's really writing down all your.

grandmother's recipes and. self-publishing a cookbook, or it's. starting that store on Etsy, or it's. volunteering at the community gardens. There is this nagging thing that is. inside each and every one of us that we. just shove away and shut down. And what. you're talking about is that the. resistance that you feel because the. things that are important don't go away. There is no amount of busyiness that.

takes that kind of it's an ache in there. away. And so you're talking about and. giving us this permission to really look. at it differently. It's not a to-do. It is some of the most important things. that you could force yourself to spend. time on. Why is the personal nature of. that nagging book you want to write, that YouTube channel you want to start, the side business that you keep dreaming.

about, what is that that thing actually. about, Seth? >> Okay, two words. You ready? >> Yes. >> Pick yourself. The dominant system does not want you to. pick yourself. The dominant system wants. you to wait to be invited to go on a. reality show, to be invited to apply for. a job. They want you to go to the. placement office and wait for the. company to come interview you. The idea. that someone else will pick you and. authorize you, they will call you up and. they say, "Mel, we know you have a novel.

in you. Would you please write the novel. and we will publish it." And I'm. speaking from experience here. I've. talked to thousands of people in this. very situation who have a book inside of. them. And my advice to them is, it's. simple. Make it into a PDF, email it to. 20 people, ask them to share it with. others for free. If it spreads, your. phone will ring and now you can get. hired to write another one. If it. doesn't spread, write something better. The end. And almost no one does this.

because it's really awkward to say, "Yeah, I picked myself. I wrote this. Here I made this." And those four words, here I made this are so challenging, right? that it's easier to buy a. cookbook and follow the recipe than to. invent something you're going to serve. to people you care about. And so. if we can find a life where we can. identify the things that are important. to us, truly important to us, and then. pick ourselves,

not to do the work to win a prize or get. a medal, but because we have agency, because we could, the word for that is freedom. It is the. responsibility of showing up to make a. thing and offering it to the world. It. might just be your family that notices. the attic is clean, but you you realize. that you hired yourself to clean the. attic. Don't wait till you're going to. sell the house and the realtor hires you.

to clean the attic. You hired yourself. to clean the attic. And that sort of. freedom and responsibility, that's where. dignity lies. And everyone I've ever met. wants more dignity in their life. Don't. you think your home should be a. reflection of who you are? Of course it. should. That's why you need to know. about our sponsor, Ashley. Ashley has. styles that balance timeless appeal with. modern trends that will help you bring. your personal look home. In fact, I was. looking at the Ashley website cuz I know. you're going to go, "Well, Mel, what do.

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built to last, so your home doesn't just. look good, it works like it should. Plus, Ashley provides fast, reliable. white glove delivery right to your room. of choice, making the entire process. simple from start to finish. Visit your. local Ashley store or head to ashley.com. to find your style. Why is there so much. resistance to picking yourself? Why are. we waiting for someone else to come. along, Seth, and be like, "Hey, you. should write that book. Hey, you should. quit your job. Hey, you know, I think. you should start that business. Hey,

have you ever thought about getting out. of that relationship? Hey, you should. ask your family to help you out a little. bit more. >> Life is high school, isn't it? >> It is. >> And high school taught us a whole bunch. at a very important moment of our life. And the people who got uh by who seemed. the safest weren't the ones who were. picking themselves. They were the ones. who were sort of hiding out. Hiding out. in a uniform, hiding out in an attitude, hiding out in a clique, hiding out in a. group, hiding out in a mob. And so the.

system wants us to hide out. It's much. easier to sell you lunchables and to. sell you the next thing on television if. you are part of the crowd. >> And so we have to do some work to um. unte this to ourselves. And that's one. of the magical things about sharing this. podcast because when you say to a. friend, I'm going to start acting this. way. Listen to this. Hold me. accountable. You picked yourself but you.

now picked someone to hold you. accountable as well. And the cycle can. continue. >> That one of the things we notice is that. when you are part of a scene, whether. that scene is jazz musicians in Chicago. in 1964 or Silicon Valley entrepreneurs. 10 years ago, you want to fit in with. the group, the scene you are a part of. >> So if the scene you're part of isn't. getting you where you want to go, build. a different one. build a different. circle of people who ask each other hard. questions about their relationships,

about the books they're reading, about. the books they're writing, about. whatever it is you want to make, because. we become who we hang out with and what. they expect of us. I believe it's a fact. that there's something about the hard. wiring of a human being that is a. fundamental need tied to growth, tied to. learning, tied to connection and. expressing yourself. And no matter how. busy you get, no matter how much you. drink, no matter how much money you. make, no matter how broke you may get,

you will still never outrun the things. that are uniquely meant for you to do. during this lifetime. They just have. this kind of magical way of haunting. you. >> And so that presents you with this. choice. >> Do I sit knowing deep down there's some. change I want to make? There's some way. I want myself or my world or my family. to be better. There's some thing I want. to do. There's people I want to find. But instead of doing it, I am going to.

sit with the resistance that slowly is. killing me as I think about it and. actively deny or talk myself out of it. One of the things that I see a lot, Seth, when people write in is somebody. will write in and say, you know, I'm I I. I've I've. changed my life. I I've lost some. weight. I'm exercising. I feel. incredible. I've started journaling. every day. I'm also now selling this new. skinare line or I got my real litter's.

license. My partner. hates what I'm doing. >> They're not supportive at all. So, can. you talk a bit about the noise and the. resistance that comes from the people. around you and what to do with it? If. one of the reasons why you're not making. the change you want to make is because. of that outside pressure. So, when in doubt, look for the fear. There are three things that motivate.

people. Fear, affiliation, and status. So, let's do them in reverse order. Status is who eats lunch first, who's up. and who's down, what kind of car are you. driving, you know, is your desk closer. to the bosses, are you mom's favorite. kid? Status. Affiliation is who's to my. left, who's to my right, am I wearing. the right outfit, is my hair the right. style, am I wearing the right glasses, do I fit in? And between those two,

underlying both, is fear. It starts of course with the fear of. death because we're all going to die. But it extends to a million things. We. figured out how to hook almost. everything up to fear. So the people who. are around you who care about you are. afraid. So are you. And that fear might. involve not knowing the person you're. about to become. That fear might involve. catastrophizing what might happen if the. world changed. But here's the thing,

Mel. The world is really crazy right now. and this is as normal as it is ever. going to be again. If you're waiting for things to get back. to normal, you're going to be waiting a. very long time. And so given that change. is happening whether you like it or not, the question is should we take agency. and control and influence of that or. should we sit back and just wait? And so the people who are you are.

listening to, who you are modeling your. behavior around, they mean really well. under the circumstances. They love you. and they care about you. But the. circumstances. determine everything. And the. circumstances involve everything we've. been taught, everything we've been led. to expect, and the systems we're all. part of. And if it's working for you, don't change anything. But if it's not. working for you, then we get back to the. and and but thing. If it's not working. for you, you have to decide if it's not. working bad enough that you're willing.

to deal with the shortterm resistance. and challenges to change it. And you're. not guaranteed it's going to work out. the way you hope, but you are guaranteed. that you can influence it. So, in that. instance of somebody who has changed. their lifestyle, they're now healthier, maybe they've cut back on the drinking, they're getting up earlier, their spouse. is sleeping in, it feels like they're. growing a little bit apart. If we use. the but and you could say I'm getting.

healthier and I'm feeling great and I'm. making positive changes but. my spouse doesn't like it. versus I'm getting healthier. I'm making. positive changes. I'm feeling much. better and my spouse doesn't like it. >> And if it's the second one. >> Yeah. >> now you owe your relationship something. because your spouse can't fix this. problem by themselves. because if they. could, they already would have. So you. can just announce it's a situation and.

live with it. Or you could say, what. would it mean for me to really see my. spouse, to really see their fear, to. really understand how they might feel. rejected, were denigrated by the fact. that I'm doing this thing that they. secretly would like to do do but can't. How can I put effort into helping them. feel the firm foundation that our. relationship has when it's at its best? And there are lots of ways to do that,

but none of them are guaranteed. But if. you don't work at it, it's probably not. going to work very well. >> I love just the simplicity of but and. because when you say but, now all of a. sudden it means the spouse is the reason. you got to stop doing it or they're the. biggest reason why it's hard for you. When you say and, you basically separate. yourself and them, and you hold space. for both things to be true. >> And therefore, they don't become the. excuse. They just become one of the. problems or the facts of what you're.

dealing with. And now you can decide how. you're going to make this better. >> Correct. It's exactly right. >> It's super easy. >> So, if you think about the marathon, >> yes, >> we're in Boston. >> Okay. Uh, some people run the Boston. Marathon and make it 24 miles and then. they stop and some people finish it. And. the only difference between the people. who finish the marathon and the people. who almost finished the marathon is the. people who finish the marathon figure. out where to put the tired. They're both.

tired, right? But when if if you quit at. 24, you can't handle all the tired. You. got to stop. But the difference is the. people who make it to 26, they're tired, too. They just figure out where to put. it. So if you go to a running coach and. say I want to run the marathon, you. don't get to say and I want to finish. without getting tired. Not allowed. You. have to say I'm going to run the. marathon and I'm going to get tired and. I need to be able to do both. So this. idea that forward motion changing your.

appearance or your life, it comes with a. form of tired that goes with it. Where. are you going to put it? How are you. going to put in the effort to get good. at dealing with the effects? >> You just said a sentence is very. liberating. And even though I've read. absolutely all your books, I'm not sure. this one has ever hit me the way that it. hit me right now. I need to be able to. do both. There is this. presumption. almost like a psychosis.

>> that when something's important to you, you believe it's going to be kind of. easy to do. >> And if you were to start with the. presumption that this thing's important. and I'm going to get tired and it's. going to be hard and there's going to be. a lot of resistance, so I need to be. able to do both. do the thing that's. important and also know that this is. part of the package, >> right? >> You know, for someone who's who's been.

really sitting with an idea. or feels that pull toward a positive. change, right? But they've been sitting. there waiting for the right time, waiting to feel ready, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting. What do you say or do? >> Well, congratulations. You got exactly. what you wanted. >> What do you mean? >> No one's forcing you to not wait. You're.

choosing to wait. What a safe, lovely. place to hang out. To be able to say, "I've submitted my novel to 20 great. publishers and they all turned me down.". Okay, you're off the hook. How safe. could that be? that I have a great talk. I want to give, but they won't let me. get the main stage at TED. I They just. won't. As soon as they call, I'm ready. to go give the talk. Congratulations. You've built a perfect place to hide. And we all do this. No matter where we. are, no matter what our we do for a. living. This is what we do. We find a. perfect place to hide. And if it's.

working for you, don't stop. But if it's. not working for you, then we get to this. and thing, right? I have a talk I want. to give and I recorded it yesterday and. it's on YouTube tomorrow. Right? >> Oh, like that right there is like, "Oh, I don't want to do that though.". >> Right? Do it under another name. Right? I've suggested to people for years, you. should start a blog and if you want to. do it under an assumed name, I don't. care. But after 100 days, you'll want to. put your name on it. So tomorrow,

>> why would I want to put my name on it. after 100 days? >> Because you're going to be so happy with. what you are doing. You're going to be. so proud that this work is there that. you did it that you want to take credit. for it, right? It's just the act of. saying here I made this. I put this into. the world for people who might benefit. from it. And the generosity feeling. because remember it doesn't cost us. anything to do this idea sharing and it.

has leverage. It might be multiplied to. a whole bunch of people. This is not the. same as going on Instagram and hustling. everybody you know to give you a like or. whatever it is. They are structuring. their algorithm so that you will feel. bad until you do more of what they want. you to do. That's how they make a. living. That when we are constantly. creating content without charging them. and telling all of our friends to absorb. that content, we're doing their work. It's a trap because you can say, "Well, I've done all the things. I've got the.

wideband hat. I've got the lighting. I'm. doing all the things like everybody else. is doing. I'm going to be an influencer. I just don't have my 300,000 followers. yet. And now you're found another safe. place to be stuck. And so you end up. burning your relationships by selfishly. asking people to do things for you. online. And you're pandering to a crowd. you don't know and don't care about. And. once again, you're trapped. What you're. saying is if you're sitting in your head. waiting for the right time or obsessing.

over the right way to do it probably. because you're managing I want people to. like it. >> Mhm. >> So instead of picking yourself and. saying wait a minute I want to put this. out there whether it's my real estate. business or it's my art or it's just me. starting to write something. I want to. do it because it's killing me to sit. here and watch everybody else do stuff. and to know I'm quietly quitting on. myself.

>> There's um something I call intentional. design. >> and it's two simple questions. Who's it. for? And what's it for? >> So this thing you're putting on social. media, who exactly is it for? Tell me. exactly by name if you could. Who is it. for? If it's not one of those people, you don't want them to see it. You don't. care if they don't like it. What's it. for? Why are you putting in this effort? What do you get out of it? What do they. get out of it? [snorts]. >> If you can't answer those two questions,

who's it for? What's it for? Then you're. floundering. Then you're hiding. For the. person who never actually starts, how do you. pick yourself? You're sitting in your. house. You're listening to this. You're. frustrated because you've been thinking. about going back to nursing school. forever and you've thought of all the. bazillion reasons why you can't and the. money and the this and the people and. the timing and I'm old and all that. other stuff in that instance.

How do you pick yourself cuz you've been. in that right? >> For sure. It's such a grooved habit. Two. related ideas, the smallest viable. audience and the smallest viable piece. of art. So the smallest viable audience. is what's the smallest group of people. that if you made an impact on them, it. would be enough. >> So if it's a household, one kid, that. would be enough. I don't care what the. neighbors think, it's for them. And the. smallest piece of art is what's the.

shift I could make that would be worth. it. So, if you've been paralyzed for 20. years by going back to nursing school, why don't you go to the local uh senior. home or hospital and volunteered for one. afternoon a week? They're not going to. turn you away. What would happen if for. two hours a week you could change. somebody's life? Do you want to do that. more? Well, there's lots of ways you can. do that more, but you're not sitting at. home wishing. You're actually spending 2. hours a day or a week changing someone's.

life. The smallest viable unit of art is. very, very small. I say to people who. say, "My boss won't let me." Which is a. very common expression. I want to make a. difference at work, but my boss won't. let me. What they're really saying is, "I want to revamp everything at work. from the top down, and they won't give. me authority to do so." Well, of course. they won't. But you know what you could do? You. could start a book group over lunch on. Fridays.

and you could just invite five people. and say we're all going to read Mel's. book. Come next week prepared to discuss. it on Friday over lunch and if it works. you get to do it more and if it doesn't. work you can stop. Those are great. examples of you picking you is the. smallest viable audience. Could it also. just be you? You know what I'm saying? Or is it important that you really hack. this well-groove thing to say how could. I shrink this big thing and turn it into.

a little thing that impacts somebody. else? Is it really important to think. about well I'm scared to put up a. Substack thing about my musings about. whatever but I could send an email to my. sister. Is that kind of what you're. thinking? >> Yeah. So let's begin with hobbies. I. love hobbies. I have so many hobbies. >> Okay. Hobbies are for you. Do not stop. your hobby because your neighbor doesn't. like the canoe paddle you just carved. It's not for them. It's for you. So, if. you're doing something just for you,

please do something for you. Call it a. hobby. Don't add any butts or hands to. it. It's for you. But the smallest unit. after that is your sister is one human. >> And we have to talk for a second about. attachment. Okay, >> attachment is a Buddhist term, but it's. pretty easy to understand. Attachment. means that you're trying to control the. outcome. You're attached to what the. weather's going to be like at your. daughter's wedding. You're attached to. whether people like the episode you're.

making. You're attached. You You're. trying to control something from the. outside. Here's the problem with. attachment. Let's say you and I want to. swim uh across a a small lake and we. want to be safe, right? Well, the safe. way to do it is 8 ft apart, we swim. And. if one of us gets into trouble, the. other one can help. The stupid thing is. for me to attach my right arm to your. right arm by [clears throat] a rope and. four ropes arm to arm, leg to leg, we're. both going to drown because you can't.

survive that way. So when we are going. to do this work and bring it to the. world here, I made this but it's not. followed by and I need you to like it. >> It's just here it's a gift. That is what. makes something a gift here. Not and you. owe me a thank you note and you owe me a. big smile and you better clean your. plate and you better appreciate it. because now I'm attached and I'm trying. to control it. That's not a gift. anymore. That's just getting somebody.

else wrapped up in your story. And. that's a recipe for disappointment. What I what we keep coming back to is. the you the picking you, the hiring. yourself, the and I know that underneath. this is that ultimately you're not. necessarily going to nursing school for. anybody. You're going to nursing school. for you. >> And. >> and. >> a big part of why you're going to like. doing that is the way you make other.

people's lives better. This is not some. selfish Aane Randian thing of always do. what's for you. >> because most normal people what's for. you is the reaction someone who gets the. joke has right so it takes a long time. of being in a Broadway show before. you're tired of the applause at the end. of the show the applause isn't uh for. you to know you did a good job you knew. you did a good job it's for someone to. engage to connect to make something.

happen in there. >> Oh, I think I just got something. So, one of the reasons why you feel so. tortured. as you're sitting there with this thing. you want to do or this change you want. to make or the ways in which you wish. your life were better is because in. doing it somehow your mind, body, spirit. and soul knows that on the other end of. you getting through the resistance and.

out of your own way and really. expressing your aliveness, whether it's through a community garden. you start or it's going back to school. or it's changing the way you take care. of yourself or. stepping back into the dating world. after divorce or losing somebody that. you love. >> that I think deep down we know that. there is some. profound connection.

that is missing in your life right now. that can only be felt. by doing this thing that feels important. to you. >> And it rhymes with another word that's. keeping us stuck, which is rejection. >> That if I put myself out there, maybe. I'll get rejected. If I put myself out. there, maybe I will be seen as the fraud. that I am. If I put myself out there, maybe something bad will happen. So, it. might be easier to just stay here and. whine about it than to do this generous.

act. So, I want to talk about my mom. I. miss her every day. She died way too. young. My mom um was a volunteer and. then an employee at the most important. art museum in Buffalo called the Albert. Knox and it's considered one of the. great art museums in America. And when. she got there, the museum store wasn't. really an idea. Most museums didn't have. stores and they sold some postcards and. she took it over and uh with her partner. Lita grew it to 10 times the size. She.

co-founded the museum store association. and museum stores around the country. looked to that thing. So, one of the. things that she did was uh it bothered. her that in Buffalo a lot of people. never came to the museum. >> because it was a status thing and it. wasn't the way they were raised. And my. mom came up with this idea before the. Antiques Road Show was on television. She got two people from Southern Beast. to come to the museum. This is like. 1973. And if you had antiques in your attic,

you were going to get these people from. Southern would be able to tell you if. they were worthwhile. So she comes home. from work on Friday and the things the. next day. And she had done a little. press for it, but not much. And she was. notably insecure, which was unusual for. her. And she said, "Seth, I'm a little. nervous because we're doing this thing. tomorrow and what if no one comes?" H. >> And then she turned to me and she said, "Well, if no one comes, no one will know.

that no one came." [laughter]. The next day, there were 5,000 people. waiting in line. >> That's incredible. >> But the lesson for me was. if she had just done what was on the. paper in her job, it would still be a. little phone booth that sold postcards. and all the generous cycles that came. out of her work happened because she was. willing to do an event and maybe no.

one's going to come because she realized. if no one comes, no one will know that. no one came. It's [snorts] almost like. these little pulls and ideas and just. that thing that's inside you that you're. waiting to do that you feel this like. resistance that you're excuses you're. safe. It's almost like I I love flowers. so much because it just amazes me that. from a tiny seed. >> Yeah. >> the most extraordinary. intricate big thing can bloom over time.

That's how I visualize these little. impulses and seeds and stuff inside of. us that you have no idea when it could. bloom, what it would bloom into. But we. don't allow them to like be planted. We. keep them deep inside in the dark. Like, you know, most most seeds don't bloom in. a bag, in the cold, in a shed somewhere, >> right? >> They need to be planted out into the. open. You know, one thing that you ask.

people to do is to be remarkable. What does that mean? >> If you want to make an impact, if you. want to grow, if you want people to show. up, don't yell at them. make something. worth making a remark about. >> That what it means to be remarkable is. someone will benefit if they talk about. you. They won't do it because of you. They'll do it because of them. So, what. it means to be remarkable is not to. hustle or put on a weird show or, you.

know, wear a purple unicorn hat. It. means do something that other people. will benefit from if they remark about. you. And to me that has a lot to do with. how you do it. >> Yeah. >> You know what I mean? The personal flare. that you bring into something, the care. that you, you know, do in terms of how. you move through the world that it's. like people are looking for the thing. that's remarkable, but so much of it is. in the way that you operate. I had this. experience with um.

>> the uh late Arin Sorenson, who was the. first non-family member to be the CEO of. the Marriott Corporation. Mhm. >> And I was interviewing him at this. massive event. There were like 5,000. people in front of the audience. It was. right when Starwood was merging with. Merit. Everyone was going bananas about. their points. And so we had this great. interview and he had also talked about. the brand and that at the heart of the. brand was this feeling that you felt.

like you were being welcomed home when. you walked through the door and that it. was everybody's responsibility. to create that experience. And so. anyway, the the conversation's over. It. was wonderful. And then we stand up the. applause. and we go to head off the stage. and without any fanfare, without any demonstrative,

he quietly. turns and picks up both our cups of. coffee and the two napkins and the CEO. of Marriott carried them off the stage. And to me that is an example of what. you're talking about because I have. remarked about the impression that that. left on me in terms of his integrity. >> and just who he was as a person and a.

leader. >> that no words could have done. >> I have read where you often write you. are not behind you are becoming. Why is. this an important mindset? >> So, the single best way to get kids to. behave is to award points and then to. say points will be deducted. That. there's a a a huge business in the. United States now where they uh give. kids points for behaving in class which.

they can trade in for sugary snacks. later. Points are a wonderful. manipulation tool. And you know, when we think about high. school sports, they act like there's a. trophy shortage. There's no trophy. shortage. The purpose of high school. soccer should not be to win the game. because it doesn't matter who wins the. game. The purpose should be how do we. develop into the people we'd like to be. >> But it's much easier to just keep score. the game as a a proxy for what should. happen next. So, we're surrounded by.

this status game and it causes lots of. marital strife because you don't make as. much money as the people down the street. because they have to go on a nicer. vacation than us, etc. That's only on. your radar because we live in a world. where it's possible to even fly to. Paris. No one went on vacation to Paris. 300 years ago. So, we just keep upping. the game. A ratchet to say there's a. carrot. It's connected to the stick. We. got to run faster. And it's trap. The alternative is to.

say, who do I seek to become? >> Not compared to who. Back to who's it. for? What's it for? this work I'm doing. at work, is it so I can make more money. than my neighbor? Why? What do I get by. making more money than my neighbor? I. don't think that's useful fuel. I think. when we choose our fuel, we choose the. life we're living and choosing the fuel. of I'm better than you. Getting into a. status loop, it never ends. >> And if you recognize as you're. listening, oh my god, that's me. like I.

am obsessed with my neighbor's kitchen. and now I don't like my kitchen even. though my kitchen was fine a week ago. but then I went over to their house and. then they've got the dream kitchen and. then you get into that thing. How do you. once you recognize, okay, Seth, bingo, you nailed me. I am in the status loop. I have the wrong fuel. What am I filling. myself with? >> Let's name it first. >> Okay, >> I'm going to the jewelry store. I'm. going to the handbag store. I'm going to.

the athletic store because I need to buy. some status. I need to buy some armor. I'm paying $400 for sneakers I could buy. for 50 because the status will help me. Just name it repeatedly. I am doing this. cuz I am afraid. I am doing this cuz in. high school I always felt left out and. now I have a chance to spend this money. to not feel left out. If you say these. things out loud, you might realize how. ridiculous they sound. So name it. Then. the second thing is what am I gonna rest.

my eyes on? What am I going to focus on? >> Yeah. >> What are we keeping track of when we sit. down to dinner as a family and we talk. to each other about our day? What do we. announce? And what do we complain about? And what are we glad for? Right? So, let's say you have a six-year-old. Your. six-year-old brings home their very. first report card and they got an A, an. A, and a C. How do we respond? Why do we. care that a six-year-old got a C in.

something? We care because we know that. in 11 years they're going to start. applying to famous colleges. Don't use. the word good colleges. They're just. famous colleges. And we need to create a. system in our house where good grades. are important because I'm going to get a. sticker for the back of my car and that. sticker is going to show I'm a good mom. or a good dad. You don't say any of. those things out loud, but that's. exactly what's happening. >> I'm sure like this is something as. you're talking I'm like nodding my head,

nodding my head, nodding my head. And. for a very very long time, I was fueled. with the status. I was miserable because. I was chasing all the things that I. thought all the other fancy people had. that I couldn't afford. And the endless. cycle of trying to prove that we were. good enough, that we were fitting in, that we were keeping up was exhausting. And I remember when I finally just. started doing I didn't realize it at the. time, but what you're saying, which is. naming it, as dumb as it sounds, I.

literally just turned to my kid and. said, "Well, we're not doing that cuz we. can't afford it. We're not going on that. vacation because we don't have that kind. of money." and just naming it. diffused so much of it because now. >> that I'm not in this battle with myself. and I'm accepting the reality of it. I. can choose whether or not this is a. problem that I want to solve for a. different reason. Not because I feel I.

need to keep up, but because boy, like. it would feel kind of good if I worked. really hard for the next three years on. something on the side and saved up a. little money that we could actually go. away for a week. That would feel good, but I'm doing it for a different reason. than to measure something that I've been. gaslit into thinking that I need to. measure. >> Yeah, naming it is key. And we're back. to the butt and the and, right? Well, we. could go do that or we could have this,

this, this, this, this, and this, and. this in our life. Which one do you think. would make us happier? >> That's generous to have an honest. conversation with our family about what. we can afford and can't afford. It's not. selfish anymore. It's not something we. should feel ashamed of, something we. should be proud of because we're showing. up where we're needed. I'd love to talk. about perfection because this was a huge. breakthrough for me in your work and. just ship it. Like just stop trying to.

make it perfect and ship it. And I think. you will be proud since I am a student. of yours to know that there were about. 117. errors in the Let Them Theory book when. it went to print. And people have. painstakingly found them and pointed. them out. And I am proud. >> so many things that it wasn't perfect. >> So many things to dissect here cuz the. words matter. Okay, there were typos in. the book. But the concept of the book,

the deliverable of the book is not an. error. >> Okay, let's start with that. But now. let's talk about quality because quality. is a really loaded word. Quality means. three different things. So let's talk. about each of them because only one of. them has to do with perfection. There is the quality of meeting spec. This means that a 1984 Toyota Camry, it. does exactly what it's supposed to do. all the time. The parts fit correctly.

That's all quality is. It meets spec. Quality simply means build a system that. meets spec. So in 1969. in Detroit when they put together a car, one of the last pieces, all the people. there had rubber mallets because the. only way to get the pieces to fit. together was to hit them with a mallet. In Japan, everything fit together like a. watch. It was perfect. >> If you got the speck right, everything. works better. >> But that doesn't mean you you want to be. better than the spec. That's a waste.

Just meets spec. The second kind of. quality is the quality of luxury. This is the word we use, I think, incorrectly when we really mean luxury. So, a Rolls-Royce is a more quality car. than a Camry. No, it's just more. luxurious. And the third kind is the kind we use as. an excuse to be a perfectionist. >> And this is you can find zero defects no. matter how hard you look. And by that. measure, nothing is perfect. The point.

of perfectionism is not to make it. better. It's to keep you from shipping. it. You can knit knit knit knit nitpick. because you're trying to protect. yourself. Not cuz it's who's it for? What's it for? So. I have never said just ship it. I say. merely ship it. They're different. Just. ship it means this is junk. This is. crap. Whatever. I don't care. Merely. ship it means this has met spec. Here,

I made this without attachment, without. argument. Here, I made this. In the. world of New York City book publishing, the spec is there should be no obvious. typos. Because that's their spec. It's. attainable. But no one has ever published a perfect. book ever because every book could be. improved. There is a word in The Great. Gatsby that if we shifted it just a. little would make that book a little bit.

better. You could go on forever. That's. the point of perfectionism. We could go. on forever. So what I say to people is. simple. What's the spec? The minute that. is met, it's gone. Merely ship it. We're. on to the next thing because we met the. spec. If you don't like the spec, make a. better spec. Well, it's interesting because you said. that when you obsess about getting it. perfect, you could go on forever, but. the fact is you actually go nowhere,

>> right? And the confounding thing when you. really start to embrace everything that. you're sharing today is that the only. answer is to do to start to stop. thinking. >> That's how we become. We become what we. do. We don't do what we become. So if. you want. >> say that again we do we become what we. do. >> We become what we do. So, if you want to. be a truthful person, start telling the. truth and you'll become a truthful.

person. >> It seems so simple. Why is it so hard, >> Mel? It's so hard. >> Why is it so hard, Seth? >> It's hard because the progression goes. like this. I will make a mistake. It. will cause me shame. I will be. ostracized for my community. I will be. alone. And then I will die. And so we can do that whole progression. in less than two seconds. And that's why there's expressions like. I I was going to die. There was lipstick.

on my teeth. That's how we went from. lipstick on my teeth to being dead. And that's why I like to name it cuz. it's so absurd that lipstick on your. teeth is going to cause you to be dead. And so we have to decide, are we using. as fuel. insecurity? I always need a better. outfit. I always need to be a little. taller or a little thinner, better. spoken, etc. Or are we going to adopt a. generous mindset that says, "I showed.

up. I said something that made things. better.". >> That's the spec. And if you can do that. wearing shorts, do it wearing shorts. Cuz the shorts have nothing to do with. the spec. It's interesting because I. immediately thought you could wake up. every day or end every day by saying I. woke up today and I did better. >> Yeah. Not I No one says I did perfect. cuz it's not true but you might have. done better. So let's talk about. authenticity. Can we do that? >> Okay. Yeah. Let's talk about. authenticity.

>> Authenticity is a croc. It's a. >> What do you mean authenticity is a croc? >> It's a fiction. No one wants you to be. authentic. Maybe your best friend but. nobody else. >> Yeah. You're the most authentic person I. know. That's why I like you. >> I'm consistent. >> Wait, wait. You're consistent. So, is. the secret to being authentic being. consistent? >> The secret of being of service is to be. consistent. So, let me ask you a. question, Mel. >> Yeah. >> Did you ever have a day this year where. you were just really off, a little.

cranky, not your best? >> I call that Tuesday. [laughter] So, when. you were like that and you got behind. the microphone to record an episode, were you authentically cranky and. subpar, or did you show up as the. consistently magical version of Mel. Robbins that you're capable of? >> I showed up consistently. I don't do. that with my family as much. Like, I I. let myself off the hook there. And and. you know, Seth, I I I I. am trying to be better there because I.

think it's really awful to save the. worst for me for the people that love me. the most. >> So authenticity is for your best friend, maybe for someone in your family. That's. what they want from you. But what. everyone else wants from you is for you. to make the story of you true. And if you need heart surgery, god. forbid, you don't want the surgeon to do. an authentic job. You want them to do a. consistently amazing job. That's why you. hired them. And I can go down the list.

What it means to be a professional is to. make a promise and keep it. So the. reason I wear this smok, wear it every. day when I'm at work, because when I go. to work walking there with my dog, I'm. Seth Goden, small s, small G. M. >> but when I get to work and I put on this. mock, I am the person who's written. 10,000 blog posts and 20 bestsellers. That's a role I play and my job is to. play it consistently. Now, you should. not adopt a consistent role that is.

diametric with who you want to be. That. will burn you out. That will break you. Don't do that. Right? But when you can. find a role that you can inhabit. consistently, >> then you don't get to use the uh get out. of jail free card of I was just being. authentic. That's media social media. talk for I was being a jerk. >> It's not allowed. We didn't give you our. attention so that you could act out. We. gave you our attention so you could be.

consistent. So how do you create a practice? How do. you create the conditions where it's. easier to do that? When you look in the. mirror, when you wake up in the morning, when you are making breakfast for your. kids, when you are dealing with your. boss, we get to say to ourselves, if I. was playing the role of the best version. of me, >> what would that be like? >> And at first, it feels really odd to. play the role of you, but pretty quickly.

you can live into it. I I'm just. processing this right now asking if I. were playing. the role of the best version of me. No. matter how I feel today, no matter what. my excuses are, if I were to. consistently play the best version of. the role of me, what would that be? Well, I know the answer of that. I think. we all do. I'm simply arguing a strategy. is to create the systems to become the. version of you that you would like to be.

today because you don't get tomorrow. over again. You only get it once. How do. you want it to go? >> If I take just one action. out of everything we've talked about, what do you think the most important. thing to do is? >> I think the most important thing is to. talk about it. And to talk about it, you. need someone to talk about it with. And that's why other than getting to. spend time with you, this podcast was so. important to me because you are creating.

a system where people invite others. along on the journey. >> And if you can find one person or three. people or five people to have a cohort. that tells each other the truth, that. challenges each other to be the best. version of themselves, it will work. every single time. >> Seth Goden, what are your parting words? Go make a ruckus. >> Yes. >> What it means to go make a ruckus is not. go call attention to yourself. It's not. go break every rule. Go make a ruckus is.

simple. It's work that matters for. people who care. >> Don't do it for people who don't want to. hear from you. Don't do work that. doesn't matter. Don't do work that just. feeds a system you don't believe in. Do. work that matters for people who care. It can be a little bit of work for one. person. That's enough. And then do it. again. That's our chance. Make a ruckus. >> Seth Goden, thank you for. making a ruckus. Thank you for teaching. me how to make a ruckus. Thank you for.

igniting something in me decades ago. that um. I think only now is starting to really. be seen in the world. >> Thank you, Mel. I wouldn't be fully me. if there wasn't you. And I'm really glad. you're here. >> And thank you. Thank you for finding the. time and making the time to listen to. something that is going to help you. raise the bar, make better decisions,

and as Seth likes to say, make a ruckus. And in case someone else tells you, I. wanted to tell you as your friend that I. love you and I believe in you. And I. believe in your ability to create a. better life. and absolutely everything. that Seth taught to you today that he. implored you to consider, I know it will. lead to a better life. All righty, I'll. see you in the very next episode. I'll. welcome you in the moment you hit play. And thank you for watching all the way. to the end. Thank you for sharing this.

with people that you care about because. what happens when you share something. that's made a difference for you is. [music] you now are making a difference. with somebody else. And when you do. good, it feels so good. So, thanks for. [music] that. And I know you're. thinking, "All right, this was so good, Mel. What should I watch next?" Ooh, you're going to love this one. This. one's really good.