Former CIA Spy: How to Read Anyone, Think Clearly, and Protect Yourself

Today on [music] the Mel Robbins. podcast, a former CIA spy shares the. secret life she lived working undercover. for 30 years. I went to the White House. and briefed the president and he didn't. know. >> Hold on. You tricked the president of. the United States. >> and [music] the Secret Service. >> She'll teach you the tactics and. strategies to read anyone and spot a. liar. Powerful wisdom to help you find. courage and overcome life's hardest. moments. There's something I've never.

really talked about publicly. He got. [music] out of the car and he opened his. vest and he was a human bomb. >> And the former chief of disguise for the. CIA also has a profound warning on the. [music] state of the world today. Please help me welcome former CIA chief. of disguise John Menddees to the Mel. Robbins podcast. >> Thank you so much. >> I am so excited to talk to you. The. office has been a buzz waiting for you.

to arrive. And you have the coolest life. and the most interesting job of anybody. I think I have ever met. The chief of. disguise at the CIA. If somebody who's listening right now. takes everything to heart that you're. about to share with us from your. extraordinary life, what might they. change about how they see themselves or.

the world at large? >> It's hard to sum it up, but I came out. of Witchah, Kansas. Um, my expectation of what my life was. going to look like was very much like. all my friends. We were going to get. married. We were going to have kids. Our. husbands were probably going to work at. Boeing because Boeing was a big part of. Witchto, Kansas back then. We kind of. thought it was cast in stone a little. bit. I always knew I would get a job, but I.

always thought that my work was going to. be something to do with books, either. teaching, librarian. And then bam, everything blew. up. My friend went to Europe. I went to. Europe with her. Um, and I basically. never went home. >> It's interesting that you say you. thought your life was cast in stone. >> Yeah, >> I think a lot of us do. >> Yeah. >> But your remarkable story and a lot of. the wisdom that you're about to share is. going to say whatever it is that you.

think is set about your life could. change. almost in an instant. >> It's your life. Nobody else is going to. do it but you. You get to live it how. you want. >> Well, I'm excited to unpack some of. these stories and lessons from your. remarkable life. You are the chief of. disguise for the CIA. What did that job. entail? >> Well, you know, I didn't start out as. chief of disguise at the CIA. It was um.

uh it was an interesting story of how I. ended up in that position. >> How did you end up at the CIA? Well, I came out of Witchah, Kansas. I. had a sister 13 months older than me. She fled to Aspen, which I thought was brilliant. And then two years later, my best friend. told me she was going to get married in. Germany to a military, an American. military guy, and would I come be in the.

wedding? I said yes. I was in college, paying my own tuition. I stepped out of. college so fast you'd think it was my. mother's money. I went to Germany. I was in the wedding and then they went. to Italy and I was. I was there so I didn't want to go home. So instead I took a train to Frankfurt, Germany. and they had phone books back then in. the Bonhoff and I started calling.

American banks because this is a big. banking town. I made four phone calls. They all said the same thing. Oh, you're. looking for a job. Do you speak German? No. Have you ever worked in a bank? No. Um, do you have a work permit? No. And three of them said, "Well, thank you. very much." And the fourth one said, "Well, why don't you just come on down. and talk to us?" That was Chase. Manhattan Bank. And they hired me. So, I.

got my tow hold there. I had a job. Then. I got an apartment. And then I got a boyfriend. who turns out was CIA, but he couldn't tell me that he was CIA. because he was undercover. And the way the CIA rules were written. He proposed to me. on the the subway in Vienna, Austria, and I said yes. And it was all very.

romantic. Then he told me he worked for. CIA. He said, "You're going to love it.". And uh when we were assigned to another. foreign posting, I went looking for a. job with CIA and they hired me as a. secretary because that's what CIA did. always. That was what they did. What was. it like working in the CIA as a woman? [sighs]. Initially I was the secretary and I was.

a very very good secretary. So I became. the boss's secretary. A thousand people. he was the director. I was his. secretary. The joke was on me because. that's a dead end. There's nowhere to. go. It was the highest level you could. get to. There was no up. >> So I told him that I thought I'd go to. work for the Smithsonian. I'd go talk to. them. He said, "Well, you know, that. would be interesting." But he said, "Why. don't you um consider taking some of our. photography classes? I know you're an.

avid photographer and I'll get you in. those classes and maybe you can, you. know, explore that." Um, and I ended up. back in Europe working for the CIA in. the dark rooms. Huh. And they discovered. that I [snorts] was really good at it. I. I used to say, you know, to myself, it. cannot [clears throat] be excellence. I. am excellent at this job. I am good and. they know it. >> I'm starting to read between the lines.

because you said he said take a. photography class and now I'm realizing, wait a minute, he didn't mean go down to. the local community college and take a. photography class. You got trained to do. something. So, what specifically. does being a photographer for the CIA. entail? When when you say photography at. CIA, you're talking stuff you never. dreamed of. You're talking fake. pregnancy bellies with a camera in it. for women. Camera in the bra, camera.

men's tie, camera purse, cameras. everywhere. Um, big cameras, small. cameras. We had cameras that. looked a lot like this. It was a Mel. Blanc pen. A M Blanc. would take a 100 pictures the size of a. pen. If you were standing in front of. Putin's desk and he looked over towards. Lavrov, who he was talking to, you can. just take your pen because you're making. notes. You just take it and go.

and take a picture of plans and. intentions of the Soviet Union. You. wanted the agenda for the meeting. You. wanted the minutes of the meeting. We. had satellites up there doing today. We. knew where everything was that day. But. that's not what we wanted to know. We. wanted to know what are they going to do. like their nuclear program. What are. they going to do? That little camera was. amazing and that was very much my. account when that film came in. I. developed that was one of the hardest. things I ever did developing that film.

But in addition to using pins and. cameras and strange places um um we made. micro dots and I brought one in today. A. micro dot. What is that? A micro dot is. a photograph of a page of text. It looks like a stamp. Well, that's because the dot is hidden. in it. It's a picture of that reduced. 800 times. Whoa. Photographically. And you end up with.

There are two here. >> Oh my gosh. It's on the back. It. literally looks like a pin prick. >> It does. It looks like the period at the. end of that document. Yep. So, you can. um mail it to your foreign agent, maybe. in China. Let's say China. He already. has a lens. Looks like a grain of rice. And then he'd get some spit and he'd. pick up the dot and he'd put it on the. end of that lens, hold it up to the sun,

and read an 8 and 1/2 by 10 page of. text. >> That's incredible. >> It was incredible. It's amazing to me. that human beings can be this innovative. and come up with such extraordinary. solutions. I agree. But photography at. CIA was was not like photography. anywhere else. It was really exciting. I. started traveling, training foreign. agents to use some of our very small.

interesting. um useful cameras. So, I developed a a. skill with photography and the guys, it. was always guys, would would let me do. it because they knew I could do it. Again, it's excellence. If you can do. the work in an excellent manner, they. will let you do the work. There's a. couple things about your story that I. think are really interesting and they.

provide a lot of wisdom and advice. One. being that you found yourself in this. job as a secretary and you were. excellent at it and it had a ceiling. And for somebody who feels like they've. hit the ceiling of their potential or. their role, what would your advice be? >> Make a change. I changed more than once. I went in and. did the photo thing and I loved it. But. um I I did a um a trip out to India.

along the way filling in for somebody. doing photo work in India. I fell in. love with India. Just adored it. So I. came back to Washington, found my career. person. I said I I would like an. assignment there. He said there is no. photo job coming up. The only thing. coming up is disguise. And this was a turning point in my. career. But I didn't know it then. It's. like well how badly do you want to go to.

India? And this is this is probably not. a smart thing to do to change your. career track in the middle of your. career. But it was a smart thing to do. I ended. up being a person who could do all this. photography stuff. I could also do all. of this disguise stuff and a little bit. of counterfeiting forging over here. And. um. that's how I ended up with the um.

with the disguise. piece of it. For the person who's listening who's. afraid to make a change, what would you. say? Some changes are really, really hard. I. mean, if it's going to cost you a salary. and you have to start again or if you. have to move or if some changes involve. more than just changing your workday. They change other things. But I think change is um.

is the most refreshing thing any of us. can do. You get good at what you do. You. love what you do. You do it well. Okay? And you could keep doing it for. the rest of your life. And a lot of. people do and there's not a thing wrong. with that. But you could say, "Let me take a look. around. Is what else is there? Is there. is there something. as interesting? Something I'd like to. fill around with." Well, what's.

interesting about your story is it. illustrates something that I've always. found to be true, which is yes, the. change feels scary and yes, it can be. hard and yes, it can feel overwhelming. cuz you think you're starting over, but. your story proves a truth, which is you. took absolutely everything with you. You're never starting over. You're. building on that experience. You took. your excellence as the right-hand person. to the the chief.

Then you took all this skill from. photography. and then you ended up in this role in. India and it was all the experience and. the pivots that positioned you to become. the chief of disguise. But we don't. think about that fact when we're making. the change that we're we're starting. over, so to speak, but we're actually. not cuz we're doing it with experience. >> True. >> What do you say to a woman who who's.

really feeling. underestimated? >> I say aim high. Aim high. Don't underestimate yourself. You know, the others the others might do. that. you know yourself better than anyone. else. Aim higher even than you think you. might you might be able to accomplish. But that's how that's how you climb. One. step at a time, reaching maybe maybe you. can do it, maybe you can't, but but try. it. There's something I've never really.

talked about publicly. In the middle of. my career, when I was 40. six, I got married again to Tony Mendes. We want to talk about change. And when I. was 47, I had my one and only child when I was. 47. Changed my life. Changed a couple of other lives, too.

Um, my husband Tony Menddees, a lot of. people know about him from Argo. A lot. of people saw the movie Argo. >> For the person who's listening or. watching who hasn't, it's extraordinary. and you co-wrote the book that led to. the movie, >> right? >> Could you share for the person listening. who doesn't know the story, a little bit. of the background about you and your. husband and what led to that? >> How much time do we [laughter] have? >> Whatever you got to give us. I had known. Tony for years and years. I never knew.

about Argo. and he never talked about Argo. It was something that he had done in the. past and we all moved on and were doing. other things. And then George Tennant, a. very popular uh head of CIA, he slipped. a there was a memo under our screened. door. We live 40 miles outside of DC. down a onemile dirt road. And the CIA. delivers a memo under our door. And it said, "We've been thinking uh.

it's a very quiet moment in America. There things are settled. Uh, I've been. thinking this would be a good time to. tell America one good story about the. CIA because no one has ever done that. All they ever hear are suspicions of. this or maybe somebody did misbehave. over here. There's never been a good. story out there. I want to do that. I. want you to do that. I want you to tell. the story of Argo. And this was like 19 years after it.

happened. And Tony said, "It's. classified." and George Tennant said, "Not anymore." There was a purpose to it. and I think it was very clever of George. Tennant to do that to show him that. there's a human side and that there's a. lot of goodwill at the CIA. So, um, so Tony told the story. and then. and then Wired magazine picked it up and. George Clooney saw it.

So, we're asleep in bed one night, pitch. black dark out in the country, and the. phone rang and it was our agent um was. somebody out in LA that said, "George. Clooney wants to buy the rights to your. story." And Tony says, "Sell it to him.". And then the phone rang again. Same. person who said, "Brad Pit. is interested in it, too." Tony said, "Raise the price." Hung up. And the next. morning, George Clooney bought it. And.

for the person who hasn't seen the. movie, what is the story? >> It was about the American embassy in. Thran. It was when the Ayatollah Humeni came. back from Paris. Um the Shaw had left the country. The. Sha was in Washington DC in the White. House uh with Jimmy Carter uh looking. for treatment for his cancer. and um the Iranian population went out. of their minds that that the shaw was in.

the United States and it was a. revolution. Up until that point, Iran. had been kind of a docile. interesting place and and the people I. knew that were assigned there, they. loved it. They loved the people, they. loved the country, they loved everything. about it. Well, all of a sudden it's a. revolution and um they came over the. walls and they went into all the. buildings. This was a huge compound. >> The American embassy. >> Yeah, the American embassy. Multiple.

buildings. And they took everybody. prisoner except for one small building. Was the only one that had an exit door. onto the street in the back of this huge. piece of land. So, six of them got away. Six Americans got away. And they ended. up uh at the Canadian ambassador's. residence. Ken Taylor, the Canadian ambassador, said, "We will protect you. You're. practically Canadian. We're practically. American. Come on in." And um.

you have to give the Canadians um great. credit. We did. Never enough, but we. did. So there they were. They were. trapped inside of Iran, a landlocked. country. Um the airports, everything was. everything was full of revolutionary. guards. The borders was all. revolutionary guards. And there were all. these efforts to get them out. Um, they. tried flying. Jimmy Carter, sent. helicopters to land in the desert. We. disguised trucks to carry fake Iranian.

troops. We made Iranian military. uniforms to put on our soldiers so they. could go in. What happened was those six. people ended up stuck in the Canadian. ambassador's house with no way out. So. Tony went to Canada and did the obvious. you have to get passports for these. people. Tony was kind of um a specialist. in exfiltrating people that were in. trouble. >> that needed to leave the country.

>> So he went to Canada. He said, "We we. need genuine passports for this one. We. could make them, but we'd really like to. have real ones." And the Canadians said, "Yes." I would point out that America. would never give another country our. blank passports ever, but the Canadians. did. Um Tony put in new pictures, gave. them fake names, um stamped the passport. so that it showed them leaving Canada, they stopped in LA, they went to Hong.

Kong, they went and they ended up in. Tyrron. They were supposed to be the six. people, a location scouting party, looking for a place to do a movie. That. was the backstory. So Tony went out to. LA where we had worked for years with. the makeup people also with the magic. community, the magic builders. Tony had. lunch with um one of them and said um. how many people are in a location. scouting party and John said about six. And Tony said what would their titles.

be? and he went down the list, you know, location manager, uh, the finance guy, the the logistics guy, the script. writer, the photographer, and Tony put a program. He named the. fake movie that they were supposed to be. going to make. He named it Argo. >> as part of the disguise of the whole. thing to be able to extract these. American hostages. >> The whole thing was a disguise. Tony had. set up an office out in LA. He it was.

staffed. He had taken out advertisements in the. Hollywood Reporter and um Variety full. page ads. Argo a cosmic clergation. It's. going to be a great movie. It turns out. when it was when it was all over, the Iranians wanted to check. There were. phone numbers. They could call that. office, that fake office, and some fake. employee would answer and say in a fake. voice, "Oh no, they're on a location. scout." They had to understand that no.

matter how the Iranians came at this, they would they would find a genuine. bonafide office with posters up and. people with the phones and you know and. they even carried some of those. magazines with the with the uh what Tony. did with Argo was he created this fake. reality. We had never done like that. before. He he created a whole fake world, a. universe where everybody was doing their.

thing and and and in in front of the. professionals out in Hollywood and it. was it was just so brilliant. Like it's. fascinating just to hear about your. world because part of me is sitting here. thinking, wait, this is actually. happening? This is crazy. Given that I'm not in the CIA, although. I could be lying to you, but [laughter]. I don't think coming right out and. saying something that you're not is. probably an effective way of disguising. yourself, although maybe it is. I'm on.

the outside, so I can only imagine. Okay, what does the chief of disguise. do? Is this like Mission Impossible, Born Identity? I'm running into an. apartment and there's, you know, five. passports and money. Is that what this. is? The passports and money would be my. husband's. I would be the mustache and the beard in. the in what in the little vault in the. bank that he opens up and he goes. slipping through. Um.

we we gave James whatever he needed. We. called them all James. It was not very. kind of us. We were we were the office. of technical service. We were the the. technical people supporting operations. James and his friends, they had a job. that I couldn't have done, which was to. be so charming and so well spoken and so. [gasps]. um that they could convince people to. betray their government. I mean, that's. that's a tall order. Sometimes we we.

were looking for charisma when we hired. James. We wanted him to be the guy you. meet at the bar and when you walk out, oh my god, you're like his best friend. and you you've got each other's numbers. and you're going to stay in touch and. all of that. That's the James that we. wanted. But we discovered somewhere. along the line that that James wasn't. going to flourish in our environment. because that James needed attention and. he needed praise and he needed applause.

and he needed. feedback constantly. And and in the real. CIA, none of that happened there. There. were no there were no attabo. There were. no stars put it on paper for you. There. was no thank you. There was uh okay, the. next job now we're going to go and do. this. There was no applause. Oh wow. What does it take to be a good. spy. or James if you will? Well, if you're. gonna be James,

>> that's the code word for a spy because. you don't want to call them by their. first name. >> That's James Bond. That's that's the. operational guy. >> Okay. >> The way it works is CIA says, "Uh, here's our program for next year." In. descending order, maybe the top of the. list. We want to know about somebody's. nuclear program. That's the thing we. want to know the most. >> Okay? >> So, around the world, we all go, "Does. anybody know anybody in that in that. program?" If they don't, [snorts] we go. find someone. and our our James's their. job which I could never do is to find.

those people, meet those people, and. convince those people that they want to. work for us. So I always ask new. friends. I say, 'What would it take for. someone to come up to you, I don't know, at a friend's house and say, you know, I. used to live in Russia and and I have. friends there who are really interested. in uh oil production figures out of this. particular field here in America and I. know you work closely with him. What. could you um and all of us would say,

"Get out of here. We're not going to do. that." James's job was to walk up to a. Russian and and make the same kind of. pitch. But James had to find a a niche first. He had he had to find a flaw. He had to. find something. something that would engage them. So. around the world, the reasons that. people will betray their government, it. boils down to four things. And it spells. the word mice. M I ce. The M is for.

money. And Americans will do it for. money. If you pay us enough, it makes me. so mad, but it's true. Pay us enough, we. will betray our country. The Russians. will do it for ideology. Typically, and this may not still apply, but typically the people we we. recruited, they had families that were. that were taken apart by Stalin. They. had families that were that were. imprisoned by the by the Russian. government. They had all these terrible.

things that happened to people they knew. and they wanted to pay them back. And. for those reasons, they would work for. us. MI is compromised. Maybe they had a. secret and they didn't want anyone to. know the secret and maybe we knew the. secret so we could use that as a but we. didn't actually do that too much because. it didn't really work very well, but it. was always there as a possibility. And. then E is for ego. And that's like the. big one. People that are passed over at.

work for promotions. People that think. their boss is stupider than anybody. People that just have these grudges. They walk around with them. Life is not. fair. They're not they're not making. their way forward. Oh, when we could. find those people, we could talk them. into spying for us. So when you look at. mice, money, ideology, compromised or ego, >> are those all present in terms of how. you can convince most people to do. anything? >> You know, you usually when you see a spy. case and you read you read the the the.

the history of it, you find those things. are in there very very frequently. People don't just randomly say, "I think. I'm going to take all the secrets I know. and give them to another government.". They need a reason and and they they. filter down [clears throat] into those. reasons uh most of the time. >> What are your biggest takeaways and life. lessons after spending 30 plus years in. the CIA? >> Wow. Well, one of the first ones.

would be that you don't do anything by. yourself. You don't do [clears throat]. anything alone. You you form teams. You. form loosen groups. You are always. working with others. It's not it's never a oneoff. You're always part of something bigger. than yourself. if you're going to accomplish anything. Let me tell you about Verizon's brand.

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really like Mission Impossible and Born. Identity? And you said, "Well, my. husband Tony does the passports, but I. do the wigs." So, how do you transform. someone into someone else? [sighs and gasps]. It's all very specific to a person, a. place, a time, what they need, what would actually solve the problem. A. lot of the time we wanted people to be.

less seen. >> and so we would um we would make them. older. Nobody looks. at old people too much. >> Do you use wigs? Do you like do are. those masks real? Cuz you always see. somebody pulling off a mask and they're. not and you're like whoa was that. actually a mask? Is that I mean is that. how you do it? Where we ended up was. they were so real that I could be. sitting here wearing it right now and. you just you wouldn't know. >> No way. >> I went to the White House and briefed.

the president and he didn't know. >> Hold on. You tricked the president of. the United States. >> and the Secret Service. >> What was your disguise? >> A full face mask. with hair attached. Was actually a girl that worked with me. Her name was Becky. But I wore her face. very nicely and I dropped 20 dropped 20. years in a heartbeat and uh I thought I. looked really good. Anyway, went in and briefed the president. Now.

the president back then was George HW. Bush who had been director of CIA at one. point. and um and we had done some disguises. for him mostly for entertainment not he. wasn't out on the streets doing work but. mostly I don't know for a conference or. something he had a couple of disguises. so I took him some 8x10 glossies of. himself in disguise cuz now I'm in my. salesperson mode I'm softening him up. because I want him to love this thing.

I'm going to show him next and it's. going to be a really expensive program. and I want his support for that program. So, he's looking at the pictures of. himself and he's laughing. I had never. seen George HW Bush laugh before. I was. impressed. And I said, "Well, I'm here. today to show you the best new thing. we've got. You're going to love it." and. he's behind the Resolute desk and he's. he's saying,"Well, where is it?" He's.

looking, you know, "Are there bags down. on the floor by me?" "No, there's. nothing." I said, "Well, I'm wearing it. [snorts] and what I'm going to do is. just take it off and show it to you.". And he said, "No, no." And he got up and. he walked to my chair and walked around. my chair. Now, he didn't know it was a. full face mask. I don't know what he was. looking for, but he knew that I had on a. disguise. And he's She couldn't find it. So he sat down. He said, "Okay, take it off." And I did that Tom Cruz.

thing, which this was before Tom Cruz got. famous for it. I did that. Bush loved. it. Everybody loved it. It's It's. It's a great new capability. Can you. show me the photos? I think you have. photos here from this. Well, I I don't go far without these. photos because this this was a moment. >> Oh, so that's you. >> That's me. Um on the far right,

that's Bush looking at the pictures of. himself. Everybody is. very calm. That's you in that disguise. >> Yeah. Totally animates. >> The mask animates. Yeah, that was the. hard thing. It's not hard to make it. look like you, but to get it to move. where you can I mean, I got through the. Secret Service with it.

>> Wow. >> I know. >> All right. Now, let's see this one. >> This one I'm holding it up in the air. It now lives um lives in the basement of. the CIA. Every once in a while, they. bring it up. >> The mask. >> And there's a big exhibit about this. mask in the International Spy Museum. So, the mask has gotten its own its own. little bit of fame. >> More importantly, did he fund the. program? >> Oh, yeah. [laughter] Because because. with this program, once we can take a.

face, any face, your face, and put it on. someone else, we can make your twin. We. can absolutely make your twin. And we we. made twins at places where we needed. them, like Russia, where we had so much. surveillance. We couldn't. [clears throat] walk out of our embassy. without a team just coming out of smoky. tunnels and following us down the. street. But if you planned it right, they'd follow you down the street. You'd. step into a kiosk to get cigarettes, I.

don't know, gum. You come back out and. go on down the street and they'd fall in. behind you, keep going with you. But it. wasn't you. It was your twin they were. following. You are still in the kiosk. So once that parade is on the next. block, you can go do what what you. needed to do that day. We could also. besides making your twin, we could. change your ethnicity and we could.

change your gender with these masks. We. could do anything. >> That's incredible. >> It was incredible. >> Can you show me the other disguise items. that you brought with you? >> Uh just a few of the things that we. would do. This is this is a storebought. wig. for our own officers. We usually didn't. use storebought wig. We had the ability. to hand make um exquisite wigs, one hair. at a time. They didn't look like wigs at. all. So, this is kind of a standin um a.

mustache. If you ever wondered what a. good fake mustache looks like, I don't. know what these cost, but. >> Oh, yeah. >> They were good. Yeah, because they they. they have almost a mesh underneath them, so it looked a little bit more. >> It's all about that mesh. These things. are like feathers. Um, if you had. terrible teeth, we would take a a mouth. impression. uh and we would we would make your teeth. pearly whites. >> Wow.

>> If you had pearly whites, we could make. them all messed up. We could change your. teeth. When we changed your teeth, we. would change your gum line. When we. change your gum line, we would change. your profile. If you look from the side, it's quite different. Uh, we could do. all of these things. We'd throw some. glasses on you. If we needed to change. color your eyes, we'd put some contact. lenses in. If I met you, Mel, and had to go back to. my people and say, "I met a woman named. Mel, and this is what she looked like. She's, you know, she's got long,

beautiful blonde hair. She wears uh. striking glasses. She doesn't wear a lot. of makeup. She's not wearing a lot of. jewelry. Um, she doesn't seem to have on. um a wedding ring. She wears a watch. like this. I would just describe you in. in such fine detail. Then for the. disguise, we would change every piece of. that that we could. >> Wow. >> You would end up with short a little. pixie wig, dark wig, lots of makeup, no.

glasses. We just go on and on and on. pretty soon you're you're not there. anymore and this other person is there. We wanted everything that we could. change. With men it was harder. >> Why was it harder? It. >> was harder because men don't fool around. with all that stuff so much. Uh we we'd. put cologne on a man who would never. wear cologne. It would be noticeable. A. woman would notice it and she probably. wouldn't like it. We put a gold chain on. a man who would never wear a gold chain. We'd unbutton his shirt one too many. So.

it all of a sudden all of a sudden that. guy is taking a turn here. He's a. different guy. We if he had a. [clears throat] wedding ring, we'd take. it off. Uh usually you'd be able to see. kind of the impression like, oh, >> he's married, but he took his wing. Look. at that. >> We change his watch out. We we just, you. know, I'm not even talking about wigs. and hair and stuff there. I'm talking. about all the little things. And pretty. soon it's another guy. It's just another. guy. Uh, we would tell our men when we.

were were doing them, we said, you know, I someone in your family gave you a. shirt in the last 10 years that you just. hate. [laughter] It's in the back of. your closet. That's your shirt for your. disguise. And we'd write up a little. character sketch of this guy. This is. your guy. This is you in disguise. Everything about him. Does he smoke? What does he smoke? Does he drink? What. does he like? we just make a new. character so that when you had to wear. your disguise. in your mind you had the whole thing.

And after we did that, then we'd send. you to the CIA cafeteria for lunch where. all your friends were. Everybody, your. boss, your boss's boss, everybody who. knows you is down there having lunch. And we'd send you into the storm and. they'd come back and say, "Oh my god, I. was sitting next to them. Nobody knew.". And then you thought, "Okay, yeah, he'll. use it.". >> That's really cool. What did 30 years in. the CIA teach you about body language. and projecting confidence?

>> Well, it kind of depends on who you're. projecting it to. >> and and what the occasion is. If you're. talking to the foreigners. who were our that was our whole goal is. to make them comfortable to make them um. believe in what we could do to kind of. lessen some of their fear. We would be.

as positive as we could be. We would. praise what they were doing. We would. encourage them to do even more of it. We. would take pictures and show them, "Look. how good you look. Look how good this. is. It's like in Argo, we built that. whole backstory and then we said to. them, "Look at that. Who's going to. challenge that? Nobody's going to. challenge that." Um, it depend on what. you're trying to do. If you were trying. to sneak somebody across the border, that was really hard. And, um, you start.

roleplaying. with people who who have never role. played before. I'm thinking of one one. uh one event where we took somebody out. over a border was a a man a really. important man and his wife and their. 5-year-old daughter. >> Oh boy. >> And they were going across the border. We hadn't done that before. [clears throat] This is a very. controlled border. And we hired a. smuggler, a guy who was back and forth all the.

time. That was his job. We hired him. We. modified his car. We modified the back. seat so you could put somebody. underneath it, a husband and a kid. And. we did. That's where they were in the. front seat. It had like a bench seat old. style. And the the woman had the. girlfriend position, which is not by the. door, but it's in the middle, you know. >> And uh the smuggler was back and forth.

across that border all the time. This. was really important. Getting this man. out was really important. And so this. was such a funny story. They pulled up to the uh they pulled up. to the the gate with the arms down and. and there's the guy in the uniform and. he's got the clipboard and he's he's. like and they know each other. Oh, hey, good to see you. You know, uh when will. you be back? What what's going on? Blah. blah blah. And um there was a tape. playing. It was Billy Joel. This is the.

part of the story that I just couldn't. believe. was the latest Billy Joel tape. that was not available over there. And. the guard says, "Oh, I like that. What. is that?" The driver says, "It's Billy. Joel." And the the guard says, "Oh, my. girlfriend loves him." Loves him. "Where'd you get that?" And the driver. says, "Oh, I have a I have a. connection." The driver says, "I'll tell. you what. Next time next time I come. through, I'll bring I'll bring you one. I'll give you one." And the guard says,

"I'll tell you what. you give me this. one and you keep the one you get next. time for yourself, but I want this for. my girlfriend. So, he takes the tape. out, gives it to the guard. and they drive through the border. So, this this idea it's everyone every. one of them is different. Every time you. do one of these things, it's different. and it's scary. H. >> what was the scariest moment in your 30.

years in the CIA? >> Uh it was in um Latin America down where. the cartels were working. Still are. working. It's still all going on. I was. down there doing some work at the. embassy. and they said we'll pick you up in the. morning. They put me in a hotel. They. said we'll be here in the morning. We'll. be here at like 9:03. I said okay. They said, "We'll wait for. 2 minutes and we'll leave and and if. that doesn't work out, we'll, you know, we'll get in touch in the afternoon.".

So, I was I was out there at 9:03. I. wasn't going to be left behind. They. said, "You have to be very, very careful. in this country. It's dangerous here. Just randomly dangerous because of. drugs." Um, so I did the work in the. embassy that I went down to do and I. went back to the hotel and I discovered, oh, I'm out of cigarettes. Back when I. used to smoke almost two at a time. I. had to go get cigarettes. So, I went out. down the street around the corner to a. kiosk and got some cigarettes. And then. I'm walking back to the hotel and I see.

there's a shortcut. This stupid. So, I took the shortcut and. I come around kind of a corner and. there's like 20 young drunk local guys. armed. You could just smell the beer. And I I look wrong. I look wrong. the. women down there in that part of the. world dress like a million bucks and red. lipstick and I they just look fabulous.

and I was not looking fabulous. I and I. wasn't looking like them and you could. just see them. They all turned and they. were like. and I figured later I said I I think I. don't think they thought I was CIA. I. bet they thought I was narcotics person, American narcotics down there checking. on them. I really thought that they. might shoot me. That's one of the few. times that I just held my breath. And. I'd had all this training and my. training said to me, "You cannot turn.

around and go back. You have to walk. through these guys.". >> Really? Why walk through them? >> Because to turn around and go back would. reaffirm that something was something. was wrong here. You just had to show. confidence and keep going. So I did. and. they kind of separated and I walked. through them. and then. I had to keep going to get out of that. alley and I couldn't turn around and. look at them and I just I I just I. thought maybe maybe someone's going to.

shoot me and they didn't. So I went in. the lobby of the hotel and open that. package and got a cigarette. I couldn't. even smoke it. I was just like this. >> I'm sitting here thinking like I I am. not built for this. Like I'm holding my. breath when you're telling the story. about the Billy Joel tape. like I'm I'm. just sitting here listening and I not. even breathing. I recognize that I. wasn't breathing as you were in the. alley telling me the story. How do. you how did you learn to do that? And. how can I and the person listening learn.

to tap into some bravery when. life is scary or challenging? >> You know, I think it's. preparation. M I think it's. it's a confidence that comes out of. thinking it through, knowing what you should do, knowing how to do what you should do. And then you kind of in these kinds of.

moments, you kind of have to forget. you and you have to go [clears throat]. through these motions. It's not bravery. This is this is born out of experience. and out of um training. We train for. this stuff all the time. If you read my. book, you'll say, "My god, were you ever. not in training?" Because they trained. us all the time. They put me through a. hostile interrogation course at the. CIA's farm. That was one of the worst.

things that ever happened to me in my. life. And in the middle of it, I know. it's just a training exercise. I mean, I. know that I'm not going to get hurt. I. know that nobody's going to let anything. happen to me, but I was scared to death. I'm claustrophobic. So, they they put me. in boxes. They put me in a box that I. thought of as a mattress box because you. could only go in sideways and you. couldn't you couldn't turn your. shoulders. You could barely turn your. head. and standing in there for some.

long time and I thought I don't think I. mean I know this is just a training. course but and I was supposed to be. learning something here but I don't. think I can do this any longer and I. remembered I learned something I. remembered that we had talked to some PS. from Vietnam and the PS had said we got. through years of this stuff and you get. through it in your mind you have to find.

your happy place. You have to build a. car, re rewire your engine and your. whatever. You need a project. Where did. you go in your mind? That's the funniest. thing. There's a there's a place back in. Kansas called the Flint Hills. It's a. tall grass area. It's just beautiful. And I went there and it was like I had. on infrared goggles. So everything was. green and it was just gorgeous. and it. was kind of moving and I was just so.

happy. and I did that. I didn't think that. would ever work for me, but that's how I. got through it. Do you have any advice. for how the person listening could. find a place like that for themselves? like where their happy place to go to in. their mind if their current reality. is really scary or challenging. I think. anybody could do that. I don't think you.

have to be scared to death or, you know, in a really bad place. I think sometimes. just the daytoday. you need an escape hatch, a place that gives you that kind of warm. rosy glow. We all have those places. I know. At one point in that box, I. thought, "Okay, we'll do we'll do we'll. do a sandy beach.

and there'll be some waves and uh I'll. be walking barefoot. and and the sand will be really warm.". So, I'm. It didn't happen. >> You couldn't go there? >> Couldn't go there. It didn't work. Huh. >> But it tried. >> How long were you in the box? >> I don't know. You You I was in that. course for three days and three nights. And and they they fed us a half a cup of. rice and a cup of water each day. We.

were in prison. and learned, you know, want to know what. it's like to be really miserable? Well, here we're going to show you. what are verbal cues that someone is. lying. H. I think in general. people. fall apart a little bit when they're. lying. They get nervous because they. know they're lying. They want you to. believe it, so they're trying a little.

too hard. >> I think direct eye contact is one of the. first things that kind of falls apart. I think watching their facial. expression, the people who are bouncing around in. their story, who are nervous, who are. uneasy, who are trying to convince you. of this thing. and who sometimes won't let it go.

That's what I would look for. I would. imagine after 30 years in the CIA, you. have a pretty keen intuition. How do you. decipher those moments when it's your. intuition. warning you versus just anxiety and. fear? Your intuition I for me it it kind of. has a beginning and it sort of has an. ending. >> When I have an intuition about. something, I I stick with it. I follow.

it. I track it like it's a newspaper. story. See if I was right. especially if it's about people. >> Well, what's interesting is if your. intuition is kind of saying do this or. believe this, the fear and the questioning comes right. after it. But what if this happen like. that? That's the fear and the anxiety. that stops you from trusting it. But the. direction that your instincts are.

telling you is pretty clear. >> Yeah. I think over time. over time you go through enough. scenarios like that that you develop a. trust in your intuition. Here's the way. that I think about it. So if I get if I. start having a feeling, if it's my deep. intuition, it's a pretty clear statement. If it's fear or anxiety, there's a lot.

of questioning or what if or just noise. this way scattered. >> Yeah. It's like a statement. It pulls. you. Intuition does. And for me anyway, if the alarm that's going off is what if. this and what if that and what if the. other thing, I know that the questioning. is more fear and anxiety and if it is a. very clear direction, move away. Speak up.

>> Yeah, >> that's intuition. >> Yeah, you're right. >> You've given us a story that illustrates. intuition versus fear. When you were in. that alley, your fear told you to turn. around and get out of there. >> Yeah. >> And your intuition said, "Walk.". >> Yeah. >> And I think it was right. >> This message is brought to you by Apple. Card. Ice cream by the beach. Going to. mini golf with the family. Checking out. a new restaurant in town. They're more.

than just items to check off the summer. bucket list. They're also opportunities. to earn 2% daily cash back when you use. your Apple Card with Apple Pay. Apply. for Apple Card now and use in minutes. with Apple Pay. Subject to credit. approval. Apple Card is issued by. Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City. branch. Terms and more at applecard.com. What did being in the CIA, especially as. the chief of disguise, teach you about.

reinvention and even just changing who. you are. >> personally? I was just huge. When I was in. school, when I was in college, I I was introverted and and uh quite the. reader. And I really thought that my. career and my life was going to be spent. um as a librarian or an English teacher.

And that sounded good to me. I thought. that'll be that'll be an interesting. place to park myself. That was the beginning. And and then I. couldn't I could not have stepped. further away from it unless I joined the. circus and become an acrobat. You develop confidence in yourself. You. develop confidence in your own ideas. You follow them. And there's no map. There's nothing saying you you should.

end up here. You should end up there. You end up, I think, where you're. supposed to end up. >> Janna, given the fact that you were a. leader at the CIA for almost 30 years, you have so many colleagues that were. killed in the line of service. You have. built friendship and allies with people. that are citizens of other countries. around the world. What are your thoughts. on the state of things right now? >> I'm not sure that this planet is is in a.

good place. Not politics, just this planet. and and. and I I worry about the next generation. and what it is um they're going to be. facing. >> in terms of the health of the planet and. global warming and just. >> all of that. >> The fact that we're not taking care of. the planet. >> I think we've wrecked it and I don't. know how you fix the planet. I mean, I don't know. >> Well, here's what I know. I know that if. uh decades ago you could figure out how.

to use a pen to take a photo and then. shrink it down to a pin [laughter] prick. and then create a. lens the size of a grain of rice to be. able to magnify that back up 800 times. If we were to put our attention on it, I. would bet in human ingenuity and the. imagination to figure it out. The. ingenuity is there and the imagination.

is there, but the will, the will is not there. As a matter of. fact, the will is pushing things the. other direction. It's cutting off what I. used to think of as lifelines. We're not. funding those lifelines anymore. Um, I think a lot of people feel. overwhelmed and scared and sad. What is. one thing you would recommend that. somebody do? >> Well, I'm thinking of of them and of me.

Take a breath is the first thing. It's. probably in order. Secondly is um taking. small steps to fix what you can. can't. fix it all, but if enough people take. small steps, you can fix big pieces of. it. >> What do you think the biggest threat. that people aren't paying enough. attention to is right now? There are so many. There are so many. It's the political.

tension. It's not just here. It's around. the world. the nature of these states. and what they're doing and how they're. doing it and. an individual can't keep track of it. We. used to rely on our government to keep. track of it for us. We've lost that. There is nobody calling balls and. strikes right now. Nobody uh cares about doing that. So, I. guess we have to call our own. So, you.

have to pick the piece. Probably pick. your fight. What is it do you want to support? >> One of the things that's interesting. about listening to your story is I keep. thinking about the knock on the Canadian. ambassador's door and the relationships. that it seems like we used to have and. the allies that we prioritized. and both on a global scale and an. individual scale. But one of the things.

that I worry about because I remember a. time I'm only 57 when there wasn't this. divisiveness. There wasn't this. othering. There was a lot more. working together and collaborating even. if we didn't see eye to eye. And I worry. a lot that we have lost our ability to. do that. >> Yeah. >> To me. >> Yeah. Now I don't know how you get that. back but it'd be worth working on it. I. innately believe.

in the endless potential for change and. in people's capacity to grow and learn. from their mistakes and to become better. versions of themselves. And whether. you're thinking about it on an. individual scale or you're thinking. about it on a global scale, I still think as dark as things can. feel, there is so much more light out. there. And there is there are more. people that believe what you believe and.

that want what you want than not. I believe that the vast majority of. people are good and they want the best. for themselves and their families and. their neighbors and that we all miss. being able to work together to solve our. problems because we can. >> That's a wonderful way of summing it up. So, if there's one skill, if you think. back through your remarkable career at. the CIA. that myself and the person who's.

listening really needs in order to. navigate the world today, what is it? I think the idea of courage is. misunderstood. I think a lot of people think that. courage is something that you that you. walk around with um. that it's inherent in us. And I think it. is not. I think courage. comes from confidence. Confidence comes. from knowledge,

from knowing what you're doing, understanding. how you can impact a thing. Um, I think. that's the important. You don't just. become courageous. You don't come around. a corner and there's a bear. It's not. like that at all. You know, you don't. come around that corner at all. There could always be a bear waiting for. you there. But courage is um is a lot. more complicated than than a lot of. people think. But it's something that. everyone can develop. Everyone can have.

If I can have courage, anyone can have. courage. >> How could the person who doesn't feel. like they have a lot of courage, how. could you start practicing that in your. everyday life? >> You could start confronting things that. are on your list. things that scare you. It It might even be people. You might. start having a conversation with someone. that you weren't sure you could have. that conversation with them. You you you.

have to approach it. You have to. exercise it. You have to um have to. learn courage. There was a story near the end of the. book that was really hard to read. I'm describing um this operational base. out in Afghanistan. At the end of my. book, I was talking about women. I was. kind of summing up about women in the. workplace and and how how what what.

wonderful strides we they have been. making. And then I called out this this. operational base. that. the chief of the base was a CIA woman, the deputy was a woman. There were like. six people there. and um. and a car pulled in and they were. bringing in um um an Afghan who oh they. were so excited that they they could. bring him in because he was going to.

tell them everything. And he got out of. the car and he opened his vest and he. was a human bomb. And he pulled the cord. and he blew everybody up. the women, the. men, the chief of the base had three. kids. The other woman had two. Blew them up. And I said, "Is this the. definition that I I've always talked. about women working the same as men, living the same as men, having careers.

the same of men as men? Is this the. proof that now we're dying. the same as men? It's really sad. It's really sad. Yeah, but it speaks volumes. There they were. Two girls. They are now stars carved in. the marble. CIA.

Janna Mendes. What are your parting. words? >> I loved coming here and talking to you. [laughter]. I I liked very much having this. conversation. You make me think through. things that some of them I know. viscerally, but I don't talk about maybe. some things that I didn't really even. know. >> So, I've been learning while I've been. talking to you. It's always a wonderful.

experience. >> Well, I've been learning as I've been. talking to you. >> There you go. We're so smart. >> We're smarter now. Um, I just want to. say first of all, thank you for your. decades of service. >> Thank you. Thank you for that. >> And um, thank you for coming and sharing stories. and wisdom from your remarkable life. And I know, and I'm sure as you're. listening, you know,

that Janna Menddees is far from. [laughter] dawn. That whether you like it or not, there. is another chapter to be written. Well, I kind of hope you're right. I'm ready. for one one one final crescendo. My son is watching and his girlfriend. They're like, "Mom, aren't you done with this yet?". >> Well, you did work for the CIA, so I. don't expect you to tell me everything. >> Well, this is this is true. Um, some.

things have to remain undercover. Janna, you are a national treasure. [laughter]. Oh, man. Thank you. Thank you. Thank. you. Thank you for your service. and thank you for being here. And thank. you. Thank you for spending this time. with us. Wasn't she amazing? I loved. every minute of it and I loved being. here together with you. And in case no.

one else tells you this today, as your. friend, I want to tell you that I love. you and I believe in you. And I believe. in your ability to create a better life. And I also believe in our ability to do. what we can where we are to start to. create a better world together. All. righty. I'll see you in the very next. episode. I'll welcome you in the moment. you hit play. All righty. And thank you. for watching all the way to the end here. on YouTube. And thank you for sharing. this episode with the people in your. life. I know you want to watch another.

episode and you are going to love this. one. I'll welcome you in the moment you. hit play.