The TRUTH About Michael Jackson as Biopic Sets Records, & Lively's Legal FAIL, with Geragos & Murphy

Hey everyone, I'm Megan Kelly. Welcome. to the Megan Kelly show. We have a great. great program for you today. You will. not believe who Katie Porter is blaming. for the leak of that infamous video of. her berating her staffer. Get him Katie. She's mad and she's naming names and. we've done a deep dive on it. And we. have a Kelly's court with another twist. in the Blake Lively Justin Baldon case. which despite that shock settlement is. not over just yet. Wait until you hear. what her lawyer just said. First though,

we're going to do something a little. different today. Have you heard about or. seen this new Michael Jackson movie? It's called Michael, and it has already. grossed nearly $600 million worldwide. since its release on April 24th. I mean, that's no time at all ago. uh with a. legitimate chance to hit the billion. dollar mark. Uh it's causing a lot of.

controversy. We'll explain why, but. here's the movie's trailer. >> I love my family, but I just want to do. my own thing. Just have all these ideas in my head. Just got to get them out. >> and do it. Michael, not a little boy anymore. Michael, I knew you were different the. moment you were born. You have a very. special life.

>> I believe music can change the world. >> Spread love, >> joy. >> and peace. >> That is what I want the world to feel. magic.

Wow. Now, the movie ends before Michael. Jackson was accused of sexual abuse of. children. Uh, it originally did not end. there, but it does in the version that. you're seeing in the theaters. Uh. despite the film ignoring the. controversy surrounding that, you know, the allegations of Jackson's behavior. around children, the movie has reopened. the debate about the pop stars legacy. and the credibility of his accusers. I.

listened to a full hour on this by the. New York Times, the Daily the other day. Um the reporter who they assigned to go. see the film and so on. was refusing to actually see it. so. convinced he was of Michael Jackson's. guilt as a child predator, the Times. apparently had to make him see it before. he would appear on the daily to talk. about it, which is kind of derelct as a. reporter. But that's just one example of.

the feelings that just the name Michael. Jackson still engender for some people. Now, I'm just going to tell you a story. A couple years ago when I was off I was. in between NBC and and this show I took. a deep dive into the allegations against. Jackson made in that so-called. documentary. Finding Neverland. I I I had very little. time very little things to do with the. time that I had in my hands. So I.

actually took a deep dive into the Woody. Allen allegations and the Michael. Jackson allegations at the time and I I. have to tell you I found serious. problems with both of them. Now, that. doesn't mean it didn't happen. I'm. convinced that the Woody Allen things. did not happen. I don't think Woody. Allen molested his daughter. I think. crazy Mia Pharaoh put that in her. daughter's head and that Dylan genuinely. believes it because of her crazy mother, not because of her perverted father. But. that's a conversation for another day. Michael Jackson, uh, I I wouldn't go. there. However, I do see serious.

credibility problems with at least the. two men who were featured in Finding. Neverland. And my problem at the time. was that the documentary, again, that's. in air quotes, did not disclose any of. them. It it Oprah Winfrey did a terrible. job at the end of it trying to sort of. glaze the whole thing without asking any. tough questions of the two accusers. And. with all due respect to them, maybe. they're telling the truth, but they have. massive credibility problems, especially. the one the main guy. And none of it was. raised, none of it was raised by the.

quote filmmaker on the quote. documentary, but I haven't done a deep. dive on all of the Michael accusers. So, I'm not going to go that far. And in. fact, I've seen a lot that I find. deeply, deeply disturbing. And we're. going to talk about it today. And. there's a great guest who you know very. well. Uh Mark Geragos is here. He is. co-host of In the Well, which is a new. program we've just launched on our MK. True Crime podcast channel. If you just. go to any podcast, you know, button and.

type in In the Well, you can find it. Um, or just type in MK True Crime, it'll. take you there. Uh, and you can do the. same on YouTube. All right. So, go ahead. and subscribe and you can listen to Mark. along with his partner in crime, Matt. Murphy, lifelong prosecutor. Matt, lifelong defense attorney. Mark, duke it. out on some of the greatest uh cases of. our time and on some great war stories. of their own. Okay, so go to MK True. Crime for all of the proper links. Don't miss a moment. Subscribe to this.

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was officially charged with endangering. a child. Charges that dominated the news. and the country's attention for months, Mark. I mean, I remember watching you. handling this. And you look pretty good, by the way. I have to say you look the. same. Your hair is like maybe a little. bit grayer, but you look the same. You. look very good. Anyway, but what that. case must have caused it to go gray. because you did not have the most. compliant client in the world. You see.

that? Let's just start there. As you as. you look at that picture, >> you see in that picture, Ben Brothman. between me and Michael, Ben has one of. the great lines of all time. And I'll. tell some of the stories. I remember Ben. and I went to to the arraignment there. And that could be right outside of the. arraignment. And there and we were. standing after the arraignment uh next. to Michael and all of the sudden Michael. was on top of the SUV. He had in one.

fell swoop jumped up on top of the SUV. and Brothman turned to me and he said, "If we don't get this guy in the city, there you go. There it is.". >> Oh, sorry, Mark. That this Wait, we'll. play it and then you finish your. thought. >> There he is. He's up. Okay, he's up on. top of the V and he's going to moonwalk. This is right after he was indicted. >> Can you imagine this happening today. with social media? >> You see me, you see me looking up there. with my sunglasses on. Brothman.

literally saying to me, "If we don't get. this guy under control, he's going to. come to court in his pajamas." And I. started laughing hysterically and s and. sure enough, he did come to court in his. pajamas. But. >> oh my god, he was accused of child. molestation and he's like having a great. time the day of the indictment on top of. the van doing the moonwalk. But of. course his instincts were not wrong that. he knew he was beloved. Wait, where are. you, Mark? Are you down? >> Right in the bottom left. Right there. And there's Ben standing right next to.

me. We're talking. We were. >> Get down. >> AND. >> GET DOWN RIGHT NOW. I mean Ben and I are. are just we were just shaking our heads. at the time in real time. It was. unbelievable. And I will tell you, let. me give you just a little bit of history. as to how how many crosscurrens I have. and why I can actually talk to you about. this. So when Michael was indicted and. that was the arraignment right there, the reason we brought Ben Brothman in, I.

had called Johnny Cochran. Johnny was. very sick at the time and Johnny had. brought me in much earlier to represent. Michael during the child protective. services investigation and that. >> what was the year? >> Yeah, probably 200 end of 2002, beginning of 2003. And so I was handling. the child services protective services. and at the same time I knew that there.

was this family that had kind of. attached themselves to Michael. And one. of the things that was also on the. mission was to investigate the family. And as soon as I had done a little bit. of investigation and and um my PI who's. now passed away actually discovered this. uh incident that had happened at J C. Penney involving the mother. As soon as. we saw that, we had to get the family. away from Michael because obviously. >> Okay, wait just to jump in because the.

same family that was that was alleging. Michael had molested their son had sued. CH JC Penney alleging that a guard had. roughed them up. They they started to. look like vexacious litigants who, you. know, never miss an opportunity to make. a dime off of a rich company or client. of yours. So you that's that's what. you're saying. You discovered they've. got a history. >> Correct. And once we discovered that, once I got them moved out of Neverland. and we had done all of that and then I'm.

having discussions in real time after. the search warrant was executed on. Neverland. Mind you, remember Megan, you. might have been there. I don't remember. that well, but I was doing a preliminary. hearing in Modesto for Scott Peterson. I. was wearing a pager. I got a page from. the 805 area code, recognized it as the. house, and literally as I'm fine. finalizing the preliminary hearing for. Scott, they're executing the search.

warrant at Neverland. So, we knew that. this was happening. And I had we there's. a a whole bunch of stories about what. happened right after that and getting. taped by the uh the private plane jet. operator who then tried to sell the tape. of Michael and I on the jet. >> You and Michael had been on this private. plane and they had the nerve of taping a. lawyer with his client and trying to. sell it to the highest bidder which is. insane. >> Beyond insane. The only thing there is a.

court of appeals justice. I think she's. retired now. I ended up suing the. private plane operator and getting a $22. million verdict for for that. And when. we went up to the court of appeal, she. um I don't know if it was joking or not. She said, "Are you telling me that it. would shock Garagus' conscious to. conscience to have a camera filming him. and to get 22 million?" And so that. ended up getting reversed and we had to. retry. But the insanity of what was.

happening then with Michael in Santa. Maria and Scott in Modesto and then. later San Mateo was truly one of the. craziest times. But Michael had support. He had unbelievable support compared to. and I always contrasted it with Scott. who was kind of the infamous bookend to. the to that. And what happened was I. then quickly realized that Tom Snedden,

who was the then DA, was coming after. Michael, alleging that he had obstructed. justice basically by moving the family. off of Neverland. That's why I brought. >> And just just so I'm clear, Mark, about. who we're talking about because the the. boy that he was accused of molesting in. the trial in 2003 was named Gavin. Arviso, but that it was technically the. second accusation. The first was by a. child named Jordie Chandler 10 years.

earlier in 1993. So when you're. referring to the family, are you talking. about Gavin's family that was at. Neverland? Because that's the family. with J. C. Penney. So you you had marked. them a little earlier as being too close. to Michael with a questionable history. Like let's get them away from each. other, but too late because this child. who was a cancer patient would. ultimately accuse Michael and you would. have to go defend him in criminal court. >> It's a great point. It's a great point. you bring up because remember in the 90s. there was a criminal grand jury that.

Howard Whitesman was handling Michael's. case along with Johnny in the Los. Angeles County Court and they ended up. settling in the '9s with a young man. then who was making the accusation and. then lo and behold 10 years 20 years. later you're having this accusation and. there was a fear in the camp that uh oh. here we go again. Ironically um they.

were right. It was a 10 years. Actually. both families I think at one point had. the same lawyer or law firm which is. ironic because now you've got at least. in the Diddy case you have the kind of. same lawyers involved in a lot of. accusers there. But what ended up. happening was I realized I was going to. be a witness. I brought in Ben Brothman. and I did I ended up testifying not once. but twice in Michael Jackson's trial.

So, not only did I kind of shepherd him. through the child protective services, I. was also a witness for the defense and. the judge had me wave on the record. attorney client and work product in. order to testify. And so that happened. He was famously acquitted. Um, I thought. uh Tom uh who handled the trial, Mezro. did a uh workmanlike job in that under. extremely difficult circumstances and.

the but that a quiddle because I had. always wondered how he would ever get. through that trial. It's my opinion that. that trial really took it out of him. I. mean, he was he was fragile when I first. started with him, but by the time the. trial ended, and I wouldn't have if we. had prediction markets, I wouldn't have. bet on his stamina for that trial. I. think the trial really did him in. And I. I think there's also speaking of, you. know, the uh movie that you're talking.

about and the amount of money that it's. generating, the the wellspring of. support and the kind of the way they've. characterized him or portrayed him in. the movie. They ended it to your point. prior to the allegations. That was not. the first cut by all reports. Once they. had that they were trying to have a more. elongated treatment of his life, then. the case involving the '9s person who.

made an accusation that was settled for. reportedly eight figures had a clause in. the settlement that you couldn't kind of. treat this if you will. So the estate I. presumably had to make a pivot and. that's why they truncated this earlier. It actually may turn out to be. >> Yes. The Jordy Chandler case. Yes. That's that's what the New York Times is. reporting that originally this biopic uh. Michael ended with an an attempt to.

address the abuse allegations and an. attempted takedown of some number of the. accusers. Maybe just Jordy, maybe more. I don't know. I haven't reported to be. more. And I've got a pretty good. indication that it was more and they and. there was a lot of the machinations that. have not been reported by the New York. Times and that that I can tell you. actually existed was that they were. going to originally try to address Jordy. Chandler. But there was a monumental.

problem that was going on behind the. scenes when there were other accusers. that were there that they had not dealt. with. uh some of the people who were. financing this film had been felt like. they had been misled. There was all. kinds of back and forth in order to try. and remedy this. And I think where where. the film landed was the solution. We're. just not going to go there in that. period of time because it's too hard to. navigate all of this.

>> I mean, frankly, it wound up being the. best thing that could happen to them. because the movie is making so much. money. It allows people to take in just. his genius and his incredible talent. without really having to wrestle with. the other side of Michael Jackson, which. is frankly what we'd all like to do. No. one wanted this to be Michael's ending. or a piece of his story. So, it kind of. gives the the watcher permission to just. think about him in the best light. Amazingly and very coolly, he's played.

by his nephew, Jafar Jackson, who is. Germaine, Michael's brother's son. Um, so it's kind of cool that somebody who's. in the family is actually playing. Michael Jackson. Before we get to the. darkness, so I just want to spend a. minute on Michael's upbringing, Mark, because it's he really is. Whatever the. legacy, you know, whatever the truth is. about Michael and children, and it does. matter. I'm not saying it doesn't. matter, but whatever it is, you cannot. deny his talent. You cannot deny his.

importance as a cultural figure in the. United States, in the world music scene. It's just it is enormous and it's like. too big to really understand. >> It's hard to overstate the phenomena. that was Michael Jackson in the 80s. I. if you were adult and sentient in the. 80s and he was literally the kind of. soundtrack of that decade and longer and. it was.

I'm I cross every there's the picture. you've got with the Reagans. I mean he. cut across every socioeconomic, ethnic, you name the category he was he. permeated. It was unbelievable. what the kind of phenomena that he was. Even going into 2000, I've had my good. fortune of representing some of the. >> Princess Diana. >> Yeah, the Princess Diana adored him. Um. uh the look at look at the now king. He.

uh he was enthralled. I mean, it was. unbelievable the kind of rarified air. that he occupied. >> And the bigger star, no matter who he. met, he was the bigger star. A. world-class talent, almost godlike in. the way people would respond to him just. because in this one package, this. overwhelming amount of talent, you know, just the number of things he could do. unlike anybody else, better than. everybody else. And.

we grew up with him. I mean, he he was a. child star with the Jackson 5. He was. the star of the Jackson 5. There was a. story online as I was preparing for. today where um his mother was saying. that she went to Joe and said, "Let. Michael sing." And he said, "No, Germaine's the singer." And she said, "No, no, no, but listen to Michael. sing." And he was like, "Gerine is the. lead singer." And she apparently. insisted. And Joe Jackson was an. terrible father, but he.

listened to her in this one case and let. Michael sing. And Michael immediately. became the lead singer of the Jackson 5, which they practiced all the time. They. were from Gary, Indiana, which is a very. rough, rundown town. With all due. respect to Gary, it's I don't know if. it's seen better days in my lifetime. It's never been good days for Gary. And. uh he was determined to see that family. rise up out of that. And boy, did they. ever. So they the kids become huge stars.

but not without awful sacrifices. And. Michael when he became an adult gave. some key interviews on what it was like. growing up in that household and what it. was like to have this guy as your dad. And of course Michael was like a large. child when he was a grown man and. sounded it had had the voice of a young. child had the demeanor of a young child. So for those who have you know our. younger audience may not have seen any. of these clips. They may be sort of. shocked by how he looks and sounds, but. here he is in a famous interview with um.

Martin Basher talking about the abuse. Warning, this stuff is disturbing. Sautu. >> He was tough. How often would he beat. you? >> Too much. >> Would he only use a belt? Why do you do this to me? No more than a belt.

What else would he use to hit you with? Iron quartz, whatever is around, throw you up against the wall hard as he. could. Um, see, it's one thing to. >> But you were only a child. >> I know. >> you were a baby. >> I know. It's one thing to disappoint. You were producing successful records. >> I know. He would lose his temper. I just. remember hearing my mother scream, "Joe,

you're going to kill him. You're going. to kill him. Stop it." I mean, scared. So scared that we I would regurgitate. >> You would vomit. >> Mhm. >> When would you vomit? What What would. produce that sort of reaction in you? >> His presence. just seeing them. and uh sometime I'd faint and my. bodyguards would have to hold me up.

Uh. when he was beating you, did you hate. him? >> Yeah. Strong hate. That's why to this day I don't lay a. finger on my children. I don't want them. to ever feel that way about me. ever. And he didn't allow us to call him. daddy. And I wanted to call him daddy so. bad. >> He said, "I'm not daddy. I'm Joseph to. you.".

>> You know, >> just one more. Um, >> before you go to the next, >> this was what triggered to my mind in. retrospect. I didn't know it at the time. obviously, but this Martin Basher. interview is what triggered I think uh. in a lot of ways the dominoes that led. to his downfall and death because that. interview so it was so used against him. or weaponized against him that it ended.

up fueling the fire that was the DA. It. ended up being kind of the wind at the. back of the prosecution and I he never. recovered from it. It was just that. >> I I'll play that sound bite, too. But. before before I get to that before I get. to that piece of it, just want to stay. on the abuse because of course if. Michael Jackson was a child molester, the odds are overwhelming that he was. molested too when he was a child. And. you know, everybody wants to know how.

does one become like this because we. want to prevent the creation of more. And um he never accused his father of. sexual abuse, but I did find an. extraordinary clip. This is from um a. recording made for the book, the Michael. Jackson tapes, and it's Michael's voice. over old pictures of the family. And you. heard him there saying his dad used to. hit him with an ironing cord. He means. and he explains here the cord of an. iron, like the literally the the plug.

that plugs into an iron. And here he. goes further with it in it with some. disturbing additional details in saut 3. >> He was rough. The way he would beat you. was, you know, was hard. You know, sometime. he would make you strip nude first. He. would oil you down. Your whole ritual. He would oil you down. So when when the flip of the um of the. ironing cords hit you, it would just,

you know, and it was just like me dying and the. flips all over your face, your back, everywhere. And I always hear my mother, "No, Joe, you're going to kill him. You're going to kill him. No." I was I. would just give up like there was. nothing I can do, you know, and I hated him for it. >> Wow. And now I have to say a father making. his son get naked and covering him in. oil.

takes me to a different place and it is. very plausible to me that Michael. Jackson might not have been ready to. admit or ever prepared to admit what. else happened. Um but it's just very. strange to hear of a father making his. child get nude and oil him up before a. beating. Either way, Mark, you can make. the argument that that behavior plus. physical abuse, that behavior plus. sexual abuse could have created. something very dark inside Michael. >> Well, I I mentioned earlier the first. time I was brought in was when child.

protective services was called on him. and you hear see there that he's talking. about her in one of the previous things. talking about his own children. And I I. think in retrospect he was prepared for. later prepared for the criminal case. I. don't think he was ever prepared in. retrospect for that child protective. services investigation. It was so. hurtful, devastating, and um shook him.

to his core. I just remember talking to. him about it and and he just could not. wrap his head around the idea that he. would be doing anything untored towards. the kids and we did get it shut down but. by that time time it was shut down the. criminal case had kind of heated up and. so you there was no rest for the weary. so to speak and it was a very difficult. time for him. I I remember, you know, I.

think I've mentioned this one once. before. One of the most terrifying times. to have a client was being called one. time and finding him on the floor um. oded uh in the runup to the trial. itself. And he had this wonderful. housekeeper who was living in the house. who was um who had called and was. panicked. And obviously you couldn't uh. take him to the uh hospital immediately. He had to have a doctor there. I mean he. by the time the 2000s ran came around he.

had undergone so much and he was to use. the term self-medicating having others. medicated. It was just a a spectacularly. hard fall from the heights to your point. that he had been at you know 20 10 years. earlier. >> Yeah. I mean it's it was everything. right. I just from my vantage point out. in in the press and in the public, it.

was the the multiple accusations now. The 93 accusation, the two 2003. accusation of abuse, the endangerment of. his own children in injected into the. conversation as you know he could lose. custody of his kids. um the multiple. plastic surgeries which like that's a. whole that his name is almost synonymous. with like the bizarre plastic surgery. trend that's kind of taken over since. then. But he was a pioneer.

>> uh and just doing too much. >> and getting addicted to it and not. knowing when to stop. the skin color. changes, you know, all all there's so. many eccentricities about him and some. you could kind of easily dismiss as the. product of mega fame, like ultra fame, like Elvisike fame. And of course, he. would wind up marrying Elvis's daughter. That's another whole twist, right? But. like part of the mystery is was it how.

much was attributable to incredible fame. and this bizarre upbringing like that. that that might happen to any child who. was exploited as much as he was at a. young age and how much Here's Lisa Marie. Presley just loving on him on stage. Oh, sorry. No, no, it's just a fan. >> I was going to say I don't think that's. Lisa Marie. >> For a second I thought this woman's too. tall to be Lisa Marie. Um and how much. is attributable to Look at those look at. those fans. For for me as a just as an.

observer, I don't remember that kind of. reaction except for the Beatles back in. the 60s. I that. >> and Elvis, I'd say. >> Yeah, look at that. >> When you I think feel like Elvis Elvis. brought people there, too. Um but yeah, no, like there's a term starruck. >> Yeah. And it's that's exactly what these. people were like struck by this megawatt. star. And unlike so many of these stars,

Mark, he delivered. You know, it's not. like we we today build people up with. image making and PR firms and you know, sort of the social media blitz. Here's a. woman being taken away on a stretcher. She's so overwhelmed by him. But he. delivered in terms of the performance. and the skills and the talent and just. you know the way he moved was not human. It was overwhelming to behold.

>> And what and what you see was is just. that kind of that tearing apart of him. And it's the analysis. I've thought a. lot about it over the years and and uh. at what price and the kind of the. collateral damage around him and most. recently with the new accusers and the. you know on the heels of what we're. talking about here which is the movie. that is out there that kind of truth.

drops off right before next up I'm uh I. I believe will be a movie that talks. about the trial and uh that my guess is. is be out momentarily as well. And when. you see there uh by the way that that. that clip that you showed, I don't know. a whole lot of men that could do what he. did in terms of leaping up on top of an.

SUV even at that stage in his life and. with the physical ailments that he had. It's just hard to. >> Well, that's that's one of the sad. things. If he if it hadn't been for the. drugs, he probably would have lived a. long life because he was obviously. extremely fit, you know? I mean, from. years of aggressive dancing, I mean, for. the love of God, Keith Richards is still. alive just based on what he did on stage. with the Rolling Stones. Can you. imagine? We could have had Michael for. decades. But a man named Dr. Conrad. Murray entered his life and.

bizarrely agreed as a board-certified. anesthesiologist to administer Propifal. to him night after night in 2008 or nine. and killed him. I mean, he he died. That. is not a safe thing to have happen. And. that's how he ultimately died. Go ahead. No, I was just going to say it reminds. me I I see this all too often with a lot. of people trying to basically turn their. brains off when they reach these kinds. of levels. And uh and that was I think.

to some degree where where he was is. just trying to uh literally anesthesize. himself to the point where he could. sleep where he could just stop being. having the neurons firing and everything. else. I mean, it's an immense tragedy. and and it's a first cousin to the. talent uh that I mean I I don't even. think there are not enough words to. describe just how talented he was and.

the kinds of uh he even even in the. somewhat adult state that he was by the. time all of this other stuff was. swirling around him. He had flashes. flashes of of just a incredibly. brilliant mind. And so I think to some. degree it was a way of just turning off. that brain activity. >> I'm sure I mean propal anybody who's.

ever had a surgery knows what that feels. like. They count you have to count back. from 10 and you never make it past eight. because of the propall which knocks you. out. Um and you lose consciousness prior. to you know them operating on you and he. he could have anything. He had the money. and the resources and the connections to. get anything. And in the same way that. the helicopter pilot should not have. flown Kobe on that day because the. weather was not safe, but he did it, I.

think, out of fame, you know, admiration, like wanting to please Kobe. Michael Jackson had enablers like that. in his own life. And one of them killed. him. Conrad Murray killed Michael. Jackson by and he was later uh found. guilty at a trial, right? A criminal. trial I believe he was put through and. of course lost his license of as he. should have because no anesthesiologist. would do this, you know, in any. respectable way. And so that's what took. him. But if if it hadn't been Conrad. Murray, it would have been something. else. It might have been a different.

kind of OD, >> right? And we could have a whole he's. slowly but surely killing himself. >> Yeah, we could have a whole other. discussion. I'm coming fresh off of the. so-called ketamine queen and Matthew. Perry and I you just wonder at a certain. point I know you want to hold people. accountable I guess about I get that but. at a certain point if you've ever and I. I've argued this for years with people. who are in the throws of addiction or. have a loved one who doesn't have one. degree of separation to somebody with a. mental health or an addictive challenge.

and doesn't understand just how. determined and how much they can. persevere when they want to get whatever. it is is the the carrot at the end or. that is being held out in front of them. So it's a it's a very pernitious thing. to be under the uh influence of pun. intended. >> So we've gotten childhood abuse, we've. gotten allegations of abuse, child abuse. and molestation against him. We've. gotten the threat of his own losing his.

own children potentially. We've gotten, you know, crazy avid obsessive plastic. surgery and skin color changes and. incredible fame, like just mind-numbing. crazy ass fame and attention. And then. and then and then a bizarre death. So. that's kind of the arc of the Michael. story. But in there, there really has. been the question of is he or isn't he. on the molestation? It's everyone wants.

to know, you know, is he or isn't he? We. We want to know. I would like to know, you know, if I'm if I'm at the the. roulette table and I can put it all on. black or white. I guess it's black or. red. >> Black or red. Yes. >> What do I black and white song? Yes. Thank you. >> Yeah. Um, what what do I put it on? He. was or he wasn't? And I got to say I I. don't know. I don't I don't know. I. don't know enough. But there are some. very disturbing allegations. So you I'll.

start with the most recent. The you. mentioned that there were recent. allegations and indeed there are. So. this is a family that was supposedly his. quote second family and they had been. defending Michael for all these years. saying no no no including I think four. four young children who used to spend. tons of time at Neverland Ranch which. was made to look like Disney. I mean, Michael's room, he always used to say he. was like Peter Pan who never grew up.

And his bedroom had a Peter Pan figure. in there, a Captain Hook figure like. hanging from the ceiling. It was all. done up to look like a Peter Pan. >> Well, I will tell you at Neverland, the. two things that always struck me was. there was a twostory video arcade that. when you turned on the lights was. absolutely incredible. And then you've. got right there the the other area that. is adjacent. I think as I remember it. was adjacent to the theater which I also. thought was.

>> the amusement park. >> He's there with McCaulay Kulkin in one. of the rides but keep going. >> So the the interesting thing in full. disclosure the family you're talking. about is the Casio family and they I've. spent an enormous amount of time with. them and I will tell you if you spend. time with them they are convincing they. are persuasive. They you you don't have. a uh a heart if you doubt the um their. their their.

emotional damage and sincerity and their. authenticity. I I saw it firsthand. I've. spent an inordinate amount of time with. them listening to them. I I used to say. about the Arzo family because I used to. get all the time the question is did you. believe did you believe back then in. real time and I used to say well I will. tell you I don't know about any other. accusers but I know in that particular.

instance that everything that we. investigated everything that we saw led. us to believe that it was a shakeddown. and I I that was I I'm not going to be. uh dissuaded from that. I can't speak to. and nor should I ever speak to any of. the other accusations. I will I just. know what I know, which is when you uh. look at all of the accusations, when it. turns out that the Arzo family. apparently hired the same lawyer that.

Jordy Chandler had, when you see the. kinds of uh history involving the. family, all of those things give you. great pause. but then sit down and talk. with the Casios and that will give you. great pause and I think that uh somebody. who's not there um can is going to make. their own decision and it's almost a. roar test I suppose because we don't. have anything along the lines of what.

sometimes you will have in these cases. which is computers filled with child. porn or a tape of uh the molestation or. some kind of a an eyewitness or some. direct what's called direct evidence. even though I often will make the. argument circumstantial and director are. equally powerful. In a lot of cases, circumstantial is more powerful. But. it's a very it's a very mind uh numbing. kind of exercise to get into when you.

have somebody who is so enormously. talented who's been dead for so long and. you're revisiting whether or not there. was this uh unbelievable dark side to. him. And that's I think what has. captivated people, but it certainly did. not hurt the box office. Uh, which. doesn't surprise me in the least. >> No, it's one of those things like it. would be one thing if they were like. Michael Jackson was a shoplifter. You. know, he had a Winona Ryder problem. Even though he was rich, he just felt.

the need to do this thing. People would. have moved on. Who who really cares? But. he's been accused of literally the worst. possible crime you can commit. I mean, it is arguably worse even than murder. Well, you I will tell you if you're, God. forbid, you're ever sent to prison, you. would rather be convicted of murder than. you would of child molestation. You've. got a longer shelf life than uh for. somebody who's a child molester. They. just don't last long in prison because. they're the it's considered the worst of. the worst.

Yes, there is a there is some weird. honor code even amongst the worst among. us who have been sent away for for life. that you know you you heard a child. you're in a special class of evil and so. like this guy who we've been spent the. first 20 40 minutes of the show revering. and celebrating and you know no question. about his talent how much we both admire. it may have been the absolute darkest. worst most evil thing you can be as a. human on this earth that's that's the. incredible mystery.

around Michael Jackson. And it's also. why those of us who want to just. celebrate his music and his talent may. very much like this biopic, you know, may very much like Michael because we. don't have to deal with it. You know, it. ends just as he's about to go on the bad. tour. Um, you know, I'm bad and um we we. don't have to even go there. But. >> the family to the Casio family, they. will tell you, "Yeah, that's great. You. can celebrate all that. We celebrated. all that, but you can't believe the.

every morning uh and I think of one in. one of them in particular. Every morning. I wake up, I'm I have to deal with this. My life has been ruined. And it's it's a. it's emotionally it is impactful in ways. that it's hard to just give voice to. Oh, I mean, of course, if if you've been. the victim of child molestation, I mean, it just is a total game changer. Without. heavy heavy doses of therapy, your life.

is going to be really tough to get back. on track. Some people have done it. It's. not impossible, but my god, what a. massive challenge that's been given to. you, but through no fault of your own. And so, the Casio family has now come. forward. They've been longtime defenders. of Michael, but now they are alleging in. a lawsuit that he did sexually abuse. them as children over many years, many. years. Um, they'd long described. themselves as his second family. I'm. reading here from a New York Times. piece, appearing publicly, including on. Oprah Winfrey show in 2010, to deny. allegations against him and defend his.

reputation. And this is very helpful for. Michael because when he was being. accused either postumously or during the. course of his lifetime to have children. like McCauley Kulkin was one of them who. had spent a ton of time with him during. those tender ages. By the way, pedophilia is defined in the DSM5 as. sexual attraction to preubescent. children. It specifically says those. prior to age 13 and that was reportedly. Michael's thing. Um, some said between. seven and maybe 14 at the oldest was.

what he he liked. Um, but to have them. come out and say never me, never me. would be very helpful. From the Casio. kids to McCauley Kulkin and there were. some others. And they now say that they. were groomed, that they were conditioned. to protect him, calling themselves his. soldiers and saying that they publicly. denied the abuse for years because of. fear, manipulation, and emotional. dependence. They recently appeared on 60. Minutes Australia and here's a bit of. that. >> For Aldo, the family's youngest, at.

times the fear was overwhelming. >> Did you find his appearance scary as a. kid? >> Yeah. Yeah. Especially when you're in bed with. him at night and and he turns into the. zombie and you don't love me. you don't. love you. He's all, you know, his eyes. were like this. >> Learning there were other victims meant. this was no longer just his secret to. keep.

>> And I was like, "Oh my god, he did this. to other kids." That was enough for my. courage to just blossom. I was like, "No, no, no, no. This isn't made up. This is real.". Aldo decided to tell his family of the. abuse he'd endured, unaware he would. also be opening the lid on the suffering. of each and everyone of his siblings. >> I called everyone to meet at my mom and. dad's uh home. And uh I said, "Just want.

you guys to know that everything that. they're saying is true because it. happened to me, too.". Aldo's courageous admission led to all. his siblings finally sharing what they. say Jackson had done to them. >> It was the hardest thing for me to do. was to admit it. >> Oh yeah. >> I I can't describe the feeling the range. of emotions that I was feeling at the. time and coming out. >> I mean it's pretty powerful stuff.

I mean I am I will say just one caveat. >> a little less so because they filed the. lawsuit. Like if the people who if. people would just come forward and say. this happened without then filing the. lawsuit I think it would be a lot more. powerful but they they did say it in the. context of seeking money which must be. noted. Go ahead. >> Well they there we do have a civil. justice system and I there are clear. abuses in the civil justice system. I. can think of cases I'm sitting here in.

New York and in the southern district uh. there's been all kinds of sanctioning of. lawyers who bring cases that are. patently ridiculous and so there is that. but in this case I think that was the. last thing that any of the Casios wanted. and I talked to them and without. betraying attorney client I will tell. you that they tried mightily I tried. mightily to to get them what they. needed. And and it's it's just a tough.

tough situation. You know, imagine what. they're in. They're in a situation where. they didn't know the extent of what the. others then subsequently told them. Number one, one of the reasons that I. thought was most compelling is I. remember going to pick up Michael at one. point uh for a court appearance and they. told me about that and they told me. where they were hidden and it was a. location that nobody knew about um.

meaning a hotel nobody knew that I was. picking them up in and they told me. where I was and that I was being hidden. from Michael at the time and it was kind. of a stunning story to be told uh given. In retrospect, I I too had been a uh. clearly a defender of his, a witness not. once but twice during his trial as well. So I'm as perplexed and torn as you are. from the outside and having been on the.

inside as to these crossurrens and it's. a it's a. kind of a conundrum that I don't know. where ultimately at the end I fall. So. personally. >> and and and he's not here, you know, he's not here to defend himself. >> And that was the problem too with. finding Neverland. You heard them. reference, you know, watching the claims. and them the one son then coming out and. saying, "It happened to me, too." And he.

found the two accusers stories in. Finding Neverland, a quote documentary, to be credible based on his own. experience. Now, of course, I I did not. I Safe Chuck, possibly more than Robson, uh Wade Robson, and we'll talk about. those two next. Uh we have to take a. quick break, but we got to talk about. Finding Neverland. And I which I think. did more harm to. like these current allegations by the by. this family than good because the Wade.

Robson in particular has got a lot of. issues with his story and was clearly. caught lying under oath in his civil. suit against the Jackson estate which. it's just devastating to the whole story. and safe Chuck less so but also had some. money issues before he filed filed his. lawsuit, which the documentary didn't. disclose. Um, and also didn't come. forward until after Michael died. So, it's okay. So, that's sort of a pattern.

We're going to pick up that piece of it. right after this quick break. Don't go. away. Mark stays with us. Wow, what a. story. Hey, thanks for watching today's full. episode. If you're new here, throw us a. subscribe. See what you think. Stay in. touch. There's plenty more goodness. where this one came from. As always, we. really do value your feedback. So, email. me, too. Meganme. kelly.com or just leave a comment down. below. I do read them. I meander over. and I scroll through and I find them. very entertaining and really appreciate.

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That's ethos.com/mk. Applications times may vary as may. rates. Mark Geragos is back with me now. He is. a very well-known, successful attorney. and he's also the host of In the Well. That is our new MK True Crime show. It's. on our MK True Crime channel. If you go. to your little podcast button and you. just type in MK True Crime and. subscribe, you will get in the well. Um. or you can go to um mktrime.com and.

it'll show you how to subscribe directly. to the show via YouTube, etc. But get it. because it's on fire after just two. episodes. They kicked it off with quite. a bang. It's Mark Garagos and Matt. Murphy. Mark, a lifelong criminal. defense attorney and also civil attorney. and Matt Murphy, lifetime uh prosecutor. So, the two of them in California have. gone round and round with each other in. the well of the courtroom and out of it. And now they bring that expertise to all. of you. So, we're very lucky to have. him. All right, keeping on taking a look.

at the two men featured in this um. Leaving Neverland quote unquote. documentary. Wade Robson was they both met Michael. when they were children. Wade was this. Michael Jackson lookalike from Australia. who got folded into Michael's orbit. I. think he won a contest and met him and. um might have appeared in like a a music. video with him and went on to become a. well-known choreographer, stayed close. with the Michael Jackson estate with.

Michael himself, said very very nice. things about Michael his whole life. Actually testified under oath that. Michael never laid a hand on him both in. the 1993. um accusations, that one didn't go to. trial, but did testify or told the. sheriff nothing, absolutely nothing with. me. And then in 2003, in your case, Mark. was again a witness for Jackson under. oath. Nothing, nothing, nothing. Then. comes this documentary again in quotes, Leaving Neverland, and he has a very. different story. Here is part of it.

This is viewer warning, disturbing. And. and I must say for the record, we took. out the most disturbing parts just cuz. it's very dark, but you can imagine it. um sat seven. >> and then him. guiding me to do the same thing with. him. So moving my hands um to touch his. penis. uh which you know was erect and I.

remember him putting. my hands. on his head when he was down there. I'll forget the. the um the feeling of his hair. That was rough. Almost like a um like a. brillow pad. Like this roughness. And he's down there and. you know with his.

his mouth on on my, you know, seven-year-old penis. >> Okay. Mark. So I have to say when I. watched the the movie, I was horrified. and I found him very credible. And then. I started to research him and let's just. say less so. So he. sued the Jackson estate. reportedly after he found out that he. was not going to get this job with Cir.

and their production of Michael Jackson. uh like they circus had licensed some. Michael Jackson songs and they were sort. of rehabilitating the MJ name and he. thought he was going to get a roll with. them and didn't and reportedly had some. sour grapes over it and then lo and. behold said I was a victim too and filed. a lawsuit against the estate and in the. deposition testimony he had to give in. the context of the civil case was asked. did you ever write anything about these. allegations that you're making now and.

he claimed under oath he testified Oh, never. But it turned out he had written. a whole book alleging that he'd been. molested. The defense team demanded the copies of. it. My information was he did have to. produce what he had and that took a. motion and a judge ordering it and he. wiggled out. tried to wiggle out of. doing it and then they actually got some. of the metadata from the drafts from the.

publishing companies. They went the. defense team to publishing companies. saying, "Did you get a pitched to book. about Michael Jackson by Wade Robson and. they did and they got their hands on. other versions of the book and his story. differed version to version.". And then there was testimony of him um. earlier that made clear he didn't. remember the details, but by the time he. got around to this documentary, again in. quotes, his memory was crystal clear for.

all of the abuse allegations, all of. which left me with a lot of questions. With all due respect to this man, because I don't know whether this. happened, and I don't want to attack. somebody who may have been molested, but. I just have to be honest, did not find. the story credible at all when when it. was said and done. Your thoughts? Well, the the experience I've had with Leaving. Neverland is famously they have a clip. of me coming out and saying, "I'm going. to land on you like a ton of bricks." Or.

something along those lines. The. implication being is that I was coming. out and attacking the um the. >> Oh, we have this Mark. Hold on. I'll. show the soundbite. This is from the. documentary Leaving Neverland. It's you. sat nai. A news clip of Mark Garagos, who initially represented Michael in. 2003 in the criminal case, is. manipulated to appear as if he's. threatening an accuser after Michael's. arrest. >> We will land on you like a ton of.

bricks. We will land on you like a. hammer. If you do anything to bismerch. this man's reputation, anything to. intrude on his privacy in any way that's. actionable, we will unleash a legal. torrent like you've never seen. >> In fact, he was talking about a. completely different legal case in which. he and Michael were secretly videotaped. on board a charter aircraft. disclosed. that those two video cameras, which also. apparently had audio on them, were.

surreptitiously placed in there, were. recording attorney client conversations. >> So, just to make clear, Mark, that was. there was a rebuttal to Leaving. Neverland called Lies of Leaving. Neverland. It's on YouTube now. And that. was one of the lies they were pointing. out that they perceived in the. documentary as regards you. Keep going. >> Correct. And that was one of it was so. offensive to me when Leaving Neverland. came out because what I had described. there in the press conference in real. time and what I was so angry about was.

they had filmed my conversations with. him attorney client which are. sacrosanked and they were marketing it. In fact, Greta Van Sustron was the one. who called me the next day saying this. guy uh this lawyer has got the tape and. he's shopping it for a million bucks. And I called the lawyer and said, "Have. you lost your mind?" And he said, he. said, "Well, this is my client's lottery. ticket. I went into court immediately, got a court order. Before I could.

execute the court order to go get it, the FBI was there. They seized it from. the lawyer and this guy was indicted who. had done the um the surreptitious uh. taping." So, it was a wild situation to. then take that and manipulate it. One of. the reasons sometime these documentaries. drive me crazy because it's great to. tell a story and documentaries can be. some of the most effective storytelling. there is but you shouldn't really.

manipulate the facts to the point that. you've just literally tell a story that. is not true and that's why it was so. >> no then then it's a docu drama and not a. documentary. and that's yeah so they did that if they. played fast and loose like that with. you. What did they do with these other. two men who are featured in it? And I. just think. >> I don't know whether those those facts. are fatal to WDE Robson's claim, which. has been resurrected because California.

passed one of those laws like New York. did where claims that were out of time. and were sort of dead claims could be. resurrected for a brief period of time. if they related to sexual abuse. and. Wade and James Safechuck took advantage. of that and got their claims against the. MJ estate resurrected. They go on to. this day as a result. Um, >> but I do know that as a as a journalist. or a storyteller doing a documentary, you must include the credibility. problems in your documentary and let the.

audience decide. And this guy did not do. that on either one of these men, which. is a failing, it is a fatal flaw in the. presentation. >> By the way, if you're in a jury trial. and this happened, say that this kind of. manipulation happened, you would get a. jury instruction that says a witness who. is willfully false in a material part of. the of his testimony, he or she can be. and should be disbelieved in others. I.

was thinking this morning, it's funny, Megan, that I before I did this, I was. watching the closing argument in Harvey. Weinstein's third trial here in New York. in the Manhattan court. Mark Agno was. giving it. I ran into, speaking of. podcast, Arthur Idala, who tried it the. second the second time, and he sends his. regards. And I was thinking as I sat. there about this the accuser in this. third trial and such damage goods no.

matter what you you say given the. testimony given the medical records the. accuser is clearly has mental health. issues that are off the charts. So the. argument becomes uh when you're. analyzing it, did the abuse cause this. or is the are the mental health chicken. or egg? Are is it the mental health that. is causing the person to make the. accusation? And those kinds of.

determinations. should be left up to jurors in the. courtroom and viewers in documentary. to. your point, why ignore things that that. could be credibility issues? Let people. decide based on a wholesome record as. opposed to a skewed argument or kind of. a uh a rhetorical device. >> Yes, absolutely. Uh there was in that. lies of leaving Neverland, they pointed.

out this thing I just mentioned about. how WDE's deposition. reveals that he had to ask his mom to. remember details about the alleged. abuse. And that was at an earlier point. in time than when he's with Leaving. Neverland, remembering them all. He's. got great details. He's a good. storyteller. He can really take you. there. If you watch the documentary, again in quotes, boy, he really adds a. lot of color, none of which he. remembered years earlier when he was.

under oath and asked to tell this story. So, it's there are a lot of questions. James Safechuck um he made equally. disturbing allegations in the piece. Leaving Neverland. The knock against him. is that he was reportedly facing a. serious lawsuit that hit right before he. sat down for that documentary and was. facing some financial some serious. financial threats and that would have.

incentivized his filing a civil suit as. he did and participating with this quote. documentary. And again, that may not. move you at all, but it should be. disclosed by a filmmaker. In any event, here's James Safechuck in part again. with a viewer warning on the disturbing. nature of what he's going to say inside. 8. >> At the train station, there's a room. upstairs. and we would have sex up there, too. What happened every day?

It sounds sick, but it's kind of like. when you're first dating somebody, right? You do a lot of it. So it was very much like that. He liked. um. if I rubbed his nipples. So we would do stuff and then in the end. when he wanted to ejaculate he would he. would finish himself.

We'd be in the hotel room and he would. pretend like somebody was coming in and. you had to get dressed. as fast as possible without making. noise. So, not getting caught was a big like. just kind of fundamental. It was very much a secret. And he would. tell me that if anybody found out, his. life would be over and my life would be. over.

>> He did say there that he remembers the. abuse in Michael Jackson's train. station. and he had like a you know like. a. >> I was just going to say you know you. mentioned Matt Murphy and my podcast. partner and Matt uh handle in fact Matt. and I faced off on a number of sex crime. prosecutions and Matt I'm going to. channel him and say that he would say. the that some of those things have the. kind of insignia or indisha of uh what.

he has seen repeatedly and what I've. seen uh coming at clients who were. accused as well. So there it's a very. tough situation. I don't think there are. any easy answers and uh the uh the look. back statutes which you referenced which. are these statutes that revive. uh statutes of limitations that have. already expired. They actually started. when the in the criminal context and.

there was a case Stodder where they said. you can't prosecute somebody criminally. when you're going to take away their. liberty after the statute is expired. But they left open the issue on these. civil cases. And some of these civil. cases and these look back statutes. present real problems from my standpoint. when you're trying to relitigate these. later on, years later when somebody. didn't have notice or anything like. that. >> Like the defendant is dead.

>> Yeah. And now you've got the estate and. you've got uh and you you don't see it. happening against somebody who's a to. quote my other podcast and and close. friend Adam Corolla, you never see. people coming after the empty bags. So. there is that as well. So it really is a. conundrum. Yeah, it's it reminds me of. the Christine Blloy Ford situation. against Brett Kavanaaugh where it's like. h how is the guy supposed to defend. himself 30 years later on, you know,

what he did or did not do on a. particular day. Now, in that case, you're dealing with a form with a with a. wouldbe Supreme Court justice. So, it. just so happened he did have detailed. day planners even from his time as a. teenager, which was extraordinary and to. his great luck. But I mean, Trump didn't. when Eugene Carol tried to come after. him and claim he raped her in a burgdor. Goodman dressing. If he if she had. brought that claim that year or within,

you know, two years or five years, he. could have defended it. He could have. easily could looked up on his computer. No, this is what I was doing that day. that that didn't happen. It's just. allowing this to be brought decades. after the fact just sets the poor. defendants up for certain. disappointment. >> It's precise seems very it's precisely. why you have a statute of limitations. I. mean there is a reason why there is a. statute of limitations with carved out. exceptions traditionally for hundreds of. years for things like murder. I.

obviously there should be and you can. think of every public policy reason why. there shouldn't be a statute of. limitations for murder and and fast. forward now to cold case DNA things of. that nature and it makes perfect sense. but for other things where it is. traditionally a he said she said and. when you're in what I like to call money. court which is what civil court is. you're over there fighting over other. people's money there ought to be some.

bright line at a certain point where it. doesn't change. I I think back to when. sitting here in New York, the Adult. Survivors Act was about to expire and. the number of clients I had on the eve. of that the expiration who were handling. cases, trying to settle cases just. because they didn't want to have to. undergo the the torrential downpour of. the media lynching, so to speak, which. also Yes. uh which also people tend to.

forget is a real problem. You can win. the case eventually. It can get thrown. out eventually, but it does how do you. get your reputation back? To quote the. original Ray Donovan, >> well, that's like um this JP Morgan. sexual assault allegation that's being. made by this guy who tried to go under. John Doe uh who was also at JP Morgan. against this poor woman who I don't. think did anything. I I don't believe. him. Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but I.

don't believe one word of what this guy. is alleging. But, um, it's the same. thing where, you know, he's completely. smearing her day after day after day, and it comes out that JP Morgan offered. him a million dollars to settle this. thing, which they said was reportedly. two years of his salary. So, it's for. them, it's a rounding error. Mark, it's. JP Morgan. They've got more money than. the US government. >> By the way, I have. >> That must mean they think she did it. I'm like, "No, that does not mean they.

think she did it at all.". >> I I you can I could I could count um a a. series of employee that I have. extricated from large corporations, friends mostly, in the last two years, where I have gotten them that kind of. money as a severance when they are. either laid off or they're per walked. out of the place. So for those who think. the 1 million signifies guilt or an.

acknowledgement of guilt, no, it's when. you have a high earner and you want to. separate. I I'm old enough to remember. when nuisance value was 15 grand and uh. now nuisance value is a million and a. half. So that's that's just the reality. of it, especially in corporate America. >> Exactly. Like you point out, the higher. earnings of the person threatening you, the more it's going to cost to make them. go away quietly, even if you think their.

claim is total which JP Morgan. says this is because they say, among. other things, he produced none of his. records, his phone, all the things that. he claimed support him, he wouldn't. produce, they say. Where she did, they. say she handed over the phone, take it, look at everything, talk to everyone. I. never laid a hand on this guy, but I'm. having my reputation ruined nonetheless. All right, back to Michael. And Matt. Murphy's here, by the way. We're going. to bring him in in a minute. Um, but I. do want to play these two sound bites on. Oh, and I have to point out the one.

thing on Save Chuck, though. He. mentioned that he was allegedly abused. in this like Disneyesque train station. that Michael had built on Neverland, his. property, which is made to look like, you know, Peter Pan's world. >> It is very, I'll tell you, it is very. Disneyesque. I definitely want to talk to you about. it. But but what what happened after the. documentary in quotes dropped was. Jackson biographer Mike Smallcom. revealed that that train station was not. built until 1994.

And in the documentary, James Safechuck. claims he was abused from 1988 till. 1992. >> Oops. >> And therefore could never have been. molested in a room at the Neverland. train station. Um, this guy Smallcom. tweeted out, "Santa Barbara County. construction permits showing approval. for the building did not happen until. September 1993.". So, that would seem to be a pretty. glaring error. That's one of those. >> in response to that.

>> That's a no-shit moment for the director. D. If you're if you're the defense. lawyer and you find that fact, you can. only imagine what you're saying to your. associates at the time. Yeah, it's not ideal. Oh, we have a clip. of the director's response. Do we? Uh, okay. So, so once again, this from Lies. of Neverland, the rebuttal, they address. this. Let's watch it. >> He says that one of the locations where. Michael Jackson was abusing him on a.

daily basis was the Neverland train. station. And he vividly describes the. interior of the train station. Now this. version of the story that he tells in. the TV show places that abuse in the. train station in 1988 89. The train. station did not even open until 1994. And as you correctly say in his sworn. declarations in his ongoing litigation. with the estate. He says that Michael. Jackson stopped molesting him when he.

was around 14 years old in 1992 because. he got too old for him. And the whole. narrative of this film is that Michael. Jackson molests boys and then when the. boys hit puberty and get too old, he. then ditches them and moves on to a. younger boy. That's the whole narrative. that they're selling with this. documentary. But when it's revealed that. this location where uh Safechuck is. describing his abuse is it did not exist. when he was the age he said he was. Dan. Reed, the director of the documentary,

goes on to Twitter and says, "Well, there's no dispute about when the train. station was built, but what's in dispute. is the dates of the abuse.". >> So James Safechuck was abused after the. after the train station was built. Well, firstly, he's now accusing his own star. witness of perjury because James. Safechuck has signed not one but two. sworn declarations in which he states. that Michael Jackson never abused him. after 1992. So, in order to defend his.

documentary, he's throwing its star. witness under the bus. >> Very persuasive. And Mark, on top of. that, even if you extend the period of. abuse to 1994, post when the train. station went up, now James Safechuck is. pushing 17. And during that time, Michael was living in New York for most. of the year there. He wasn't sitting at. Neverland um with James Safechuck, according to those who knew him. Though.

it does raise questions about whether. these two complainants in finding Never. leaving Neverland who had previously. testified repeatedly that Michael never. touched them, but after he died and they. fell on hard times, then came forward. and said he did. How much credibility we. can give them. And Wade Robson was. another one who was reportedly found to. have been um looking up news articles. about what had happened to other boys. Now, that could be the behavior of a. victim, too. Just trying to you get back.

to that story. Or it could be somebody. >> Yeah. Or it could be somebody who, you. know, was looking for details he didn't. have because it didn't happen to him. So. all of this Okay. But that leads me to. where I wanted to go with you, which is. you mentioned a moment ago the nice maid. you knew at at Neverland. And was that. Adrien McManis? It was a different nice maid. Okay. Cuz. speaking of 60 Minutes Australia, he's. shaking his head. No, it wasn't her.

Speaking of 60 Minutes Australia, which. I think we all need to start watching, um, a former Jackson maid named Adrien. McManis. gave some damning testimony about. Michael and what she eventually started. to clean up in Michael's bedroom. Um, she said after 3 months they said, "Now. you can start working. You can start. cleaning Michael's bedroom." At first. they just gave her the rules of like. don't look at Michael, don't talk to. Michael. you know, you're not friends. with Michael. You're the maid here. And.

then she did get to know him a little. and she said he was very nice to her and. then she started cleaning his bedroom. and. didn't didn't go well. Um, this is an. allegation and here is part of it again. disturbing five. >> And underwear is also in his bed. I I. did find um underweares that were men's. briefs um in the walk-in closet and they. were um.

I I don't like to say this. They were. like crunchy hard with yellow stains all. over them. I didn't know who they. belonged to because the little boys. started wearing Michael's briefs. There. was a lot of Vaseline at Neverland. Sometimes it was found in the golf carts. when Mr. Jackson would take off with the. with the boys. >> Vaseline? >> Yeah, Vaseline. And there was a lot of. Vaseline in Michael's bedroom. It was. actually all over the ranch. >> Is there possibly an innocent.

explanation for that? >> I don't think so. >> You know. >> Okay. Now, I will say on the Vaseline, like the guy was the king of plastic. surgery, so who the hell knows what he. needed the Vaseline for? You know what I. mean? Like maybe that makes you go from. black to white or or soothes the the. journey somehow or the scars he must. have had all over him. I don't Vaseline. in the golf cart, >> right? I I don't know the Vaseline. I. you know I'm I'm still PTSD from baby.

oil last year with Diddy. And so I'm. always I I think there's a I take all of. that with a certain grain of salt. But. you know, the interesting thing is here. that I believe the case is set for trial. next year in the Beverly Hills. courthouse in 2027. So, we're going to have. >> Wade Robson and James. I think that's set for trial 2027. Beverly Hills Courthouse. And if I'm not.

mistaken, uh then if that's televised, I. can't even imagine what that's going to. be like. I mean the go that will be and. I frankly for a case like this that's. where this belongs in a courtroom to try. and settle it in with admissible. evidence as opposed to kind of. speculation or this that things floating. out in the ether. I think that that's. one of the great things about being in a.

courtroom is that you can actually get. the evidence. I was thinking yesterday, completely off topic about that, but. this Rebecca Grossman and the picture. and that civil trial that's being tried. in Los Angeles right now that's being. televised where she was convicted of the. murder of the two little Iscander boys. And we're finding out stuff in the civil. trial that we never knew about in the. criminal trial. I have a sneaking. suspicion. I know the lawyers involved.

and they're all really top flight that. we will find out a lot that we didn't. know and and that has been reported once. we get into trial next year. >> I mean in very few of these cases where. you have a sexually molested child or a. sexually abused woman do you have. somebody whose testimonial is totally. pristine and they have absolutely no. credibility issues. I mean, they're. humans, you know, like most humans have.

some credibility problems. If you really. dug deep or, you know, if you've been. victimized by somebody who's extremely. wealthy and famous, you probably would. file a civil lawsuit. Like, f them. You, you know, so it's like it's very hard to. find just like the perfect little, you. know, sweet Polyiana who has absolutely. no dirt on her to come forward and say, "This happened to You know, I I I want. to keep that in mind as we go over these. >> testimony. And to that to that point, I.

there are cases where some of the most. heartbreaking cases in the criminal. justice system are young children. testifying against the family member and. then you say to yourself, why would they. lie? But then you if it's against the. backdrop of a custody fight or something. like that and then it turns out that. that one of the uh mom or dad is. programming the child and upon. cross-examination you find that out. I. mean these are the kinds of struggles.

that you deal with in in trials and. that's uh I would never want to be a. juror in those kinds of cases but they. happen every day across the country. Um, I I do want to say this about this. woman, Adrienne McManis, the maid. Um, so she was a prosecution witness in. 2003. By the way, Matt Murphy just. joined us. Hi, welcome to the party. Matt, lifelong prosecutor, now doing. some defense work, some criminal defense. work, but only for cops because that's.

how. >> I was just going to say, yeah, you got. to you got to pass the first responder. law enforcement lit this fest with Matt. before he'll defend you. That's That's. what we love about him. Mark, >> can I just say after watching those. little clips of Mark, um, he's much more. handsome now with the gray hair. Megan, I'm I'm just going to go out there and. say. >> he looks good. >> You don't have an additional line on. your face, which is saying something for. a Californian in particular. >> It makes him even more freaking. persuasive, which is maddening to me in. so many different ways. But.

>> well, I want to know Mad Lim. Megan's. point, have you ever had a pristine uh. uh complainant as a witness when you. were prosecuting a case? >> Oh, there's always it's always messing. And what you were just saying, Mark, um. it's giving me flashbacks. Those custody. disputes, Megan, just so you know, I. used to have a sexual assault detective. named Don How at Huntington Beach Police. Department. And if you can believe this. one, Mark, he was in there for about 25. years. I'm sure you've you encountered. him at one point or another, multiple.

times. used to send me the custody. dispute stuff with a yellow sticky on it. with RNR, which stood for read and. reject because there's it's so common. that um that those are false allegations. um and it really undermines the. integrity of real victims. >> Okay. Hey, I just I wanted to just offer. one thought on the maid because we kind. of left that testimonial hanging out. there, but the truth is that she was. accused um earlier of having stolen on. the job while she was working for.

Jackson during the trial. Uh also on a. separate point, she identified one of. the boys who she allegedly saw Michael. Jackson kissing. Um and she said she saw. him touching their bottoms or their. crotches and she identified one of them. as McCauley Kulkin. He too has denied. ever being molested in any way, shape, or form by Michael Jackson. So, you. know, she she's also got with there's. some questions about her testimonial and. her credibility and certainly her. honesty if she was accused of stealing. So, all these witnesses has something.

But here's there's a reason I brought in. Matt now because the the worst sound. bite. I mean, it's to me it's worse than. anything we heard from Wade, from James. Safechuck, from the maid. It's from. Michael himself and Mark Garagos. mentioned it at the beginning of our. discussion as the thing from the Martin. Basher sitdown that would change the. trajectory of Michael's life would get. the authorities interested in him. He. would get charged that there was a.

possibility of losing custody of his. children, the drugs, the ultimately. early untimely death. And it was this. crazy ass exchange I'm going to show. here in Saut 4. Can you understand why. people would worry about that? >> Cuz they're ignorant. >> But is it really appropriate for a 44. year old man to share a bedroom. with a child who is not related to him. at all? >> That's a beautiful thing. That's that's.

not a worrying thing. >> Why should he be worrying? Who's the. criminal? Who's who's Jack the Ripper in. the room? >> Did you ever sleep in the bed with them? >> No. But I have slept in the bed with. many children. I sleep in the bed with. all of them. When McCully Ken were. little, Kir Kieran Kulkin would sleep on. this side. McCullik Cuck is on this. side. His sister's in there. We're all. just jamming the bed. >> That right, Michael. >> It's very right. It's very loving. That's what the world needs now. More. love,

>> Mark. >> I will tell you at the time, >> every sane person recoils. >> Yes. And I will tell you at the time. that that was one of the reasons that. the calculation was made to do that. two-part uh 60 minutes interview because. that was to my mind at least was an. insurmountable or close to. insurmountable thing to get over. By the. way, why is it always in my cases that. it's ABC who does the interview that. ends up I have to deal with later? I.

don't know what it is, whether it's. Martin Basher or Diane Sawyer, but it's. always it's always. >> I'll tell you why. I know the answer. >> I know the answer because ABC does a lot. of crime. >> to its credit. I I mean, I think all. three of us are very into crime and uh. ABC does way more of that than CBS or. NBC even, which has datine, but ABC. that's kind of one of their main beats. So, I think that's why all this I was. this many years old before I understood. that. Thank you. because it always seems.

it always seems like I'm fighting ABC to. get the outtakes from the interview that. the client did before I met the client. So, >> I think that's why Matt, I've got to ask. you um because in in the course of your. lifelong career as a prosecutor, you did. a lot of sex crimes. We've talked about. that. And I'm sure you've got a thought, you're a Californian as well on the. Michael Jackson situation. I mean, there's been now we we talked about him. being accused in 1993 for an 8 figureure.

settlement. That plaintiff went away. Then there was an actual criminal tri. trial by another accuser in 2003. He was. found not guilty in that case by a jury. That was the one in which he moonwalked. on the van the day of his indictment. Um, now we have at least these two other. accusers coming forward in Leaving. Neverland, Wade and James, who we just. went through. Now we have this family of. four kids um who we discussed with Mark. who had been like his second family the. Casios saying it happened to all four of.

them even though they've all all of. these people had been denying that it. had ever happened and had been great. witnesses for Michael not wanting to. admit what they say is the truth. So as. a prosecutor how does all this grab you? >> Well as a prosecutor you always want um. as many statements of the defendant as. possible. And you know what this the. Michael Jackson thing I think we were. all shocked back in those days when we. saw that interview and and much much. credit to Martin Basher because he asked.

him the tough questions. Um and he kind. of he kind of asked exactly what we were. all thinking in the middle of that like. is that really appropriate and we saw. the answer. um my boss uh my he's like a. mentor of mine, Lou Rosenlum, when I. left the DA's office and he'd been in. private practice for six or seven years. He hit me with a real gem um that I know. Mark is going to appreciate here. He. said, "Always remember and never forget. the way these people think doesn't stop. simply because they've gotten into. trouble and now you've decided to. represent them." You know, it's and you.

see these interviews by people whose. currency has been the media like Michael. Jackson or like Prince Andrew. I'm sure. you saw that with the um. >> the Guthrie interview. That was the. biggest. >> it was. He's still suffering the. consequences of that absolute meltdown. Um kind of like we saw with the the. Michael Jackson clip we just we just. watched. It doesn't take much to shift. the public perception. Or another. another case that's out there right now. um that I was talking to Harvey Leven.

about yesterday, Mark, and that's um. this David case. As soon as Nathan. Hawkman came out and said, "We've got. child pornography on the phone,". everybody ran for the exits. So, there's. It doesn't take much, especially in. cases like this, um, you know, as a. prosecutor, you always want them talking. and you want them talking for as long as. possible because if they say something. like that, you've got a real weapon uh. in your arsenal when it comes to. prosecuting them. Mhm. I'm thinking. about Alex Murdoch who insisted on. taking the stand at his family.

annihilation trial in South Carolina. It. was a disaster for him. He thought he. could outwit the prosecutors just like. they all do and none can. You know, it's. like like it's like my old pal from. Jones Day used to say. He had a great. story of being across from the CEO of a. company who was suing a Jones Day. client. So he was with that CEO who was. suing his client and the CEO's lawyer. and it was like the eve of trial. Are we.

going to settle this or aren't we? And. he looked at that CEO and who was. refusing to settle and my friend knew. the guy ought to settle and said to him, "Look, is it possible that when I get. you on the stand, you will have a very, very good day and I will have a very, very bad day?". No, it's not possible. It's it's not poss like you're not going. to outwit me. And sure enough, that guy. settled as they all should. It's like if. you have a really talented civil.

attorney crossing you or if you have a. lifelong prosecutor who knows his stuff, you're going down. You're not going to. outsmart them. Matt, >> there's probably nobody in the world. right now, Megan, more than the guy. that's sitting sitting there with us. right now, Mark Ergos, who's probably. had that hard conversation again and. again. And as he sits here, he can't. talk about it because it's all probably. clients he's we all know or heard of and. he can't reveal any attorney client. And. I know he's just jumping out of his skin. right now because he's got so many. examples of that that he can't share.

But yeah, that's uh. >> Scott Peterson. >> Oh, so many. She was going to go there. Well, my father, who was my hero and. mentor, used to say, "It's a rare case. for the defense that gets better after. the prosecution rests." And boy, isn't. that the truth. I I remember one case in. particular, will remain nameless, where. I had tried, I thought the best murder. case I had ever tried as a defense. lawyer, and then my client insisted that.

he was going to take the stand. And I. actually took him into chambers and I. said, "I I will quit before I put this. guy on the stand. I know it's his. absolute right. Uh but I can't I can't. let him on." And sure enough, he took. the stand and he did well for the first. day. And I would refused to take him on. direct. I had one of my associates do. it. I just said, "I'm not going to be a. party to this massacre." But by day two, the prosecutor had so dismantled him.

that and afterwards the jurors, speaking. of Dineine, who were interviewed by. Deline, the four person said, "We were. never going to convict him until he took. the stand." And that's your worst. nightmare. >> Okay. So, I want us to shift gears. though in the time that we have because. I teased at the top of the show two. things. I teased Katie Porter and who. she's saying released that tape which we. don't have time for. That was actually. we're going to have to do that tomorrow. But I will play I promise Mark Halprin's.

here tomorrow and we are going to play. it and we're going to take a deep dive. into it because we've actually looked. into her claim. >> Why does Mark Halpern get all the fun of. Katie Porter? I mean, has there ever. been a worse? As a lifelong Democrat in. California, how did we get to the point. where Katie Porter is the our best and. brightest? I don't even understand that. It makes zero sense to me. The woman has. absolutely no uh redeeming qualities as. a political candidate. You wouldn't hire.

her to run your 7ele1 and we're going to. hire her to run the fourth largest. economy in the country. What is this blaspheme against the. clearly most qualified candidate? Don't. she deserves this and so do I. That's. the important thing. Mark, the people of. America deserve to see this woman ascend. and be in a if we have to have a. Democrat if we can't have have, you. know, you can't have confidence. God, God forbid you've got confidence. God. forbid somebody runs who actually has.

run something before. >> Steve Hilton would be great. Chad Bianca. would be great. But if we can't have. them, it's got to be Katie. She's the. one who needs to do it because we. deserve that. Okay, but anyway, what we. teased was the Blake Lively settlement. And her lawyers are already making a. bunch of noise and also trying to spin. the pre-existing understanding that they. were going to recover some attorneys. fees. because he he sued her. He counters sued.

her for defamation. and that claim was. thrown out. And there's a California. statute that protects alleged victims of. sexual harassment from getting sued for. defamation because this is something. that a lot of defendants will do. saying. if you do that and the person who was. claiming to have been sexually harassed. has any sort of good faith basis for. saying she was sexually harassed and. your defamation lawsuit against her then. gets thrown out as it was here, you are.

going to be able to recover your. lawyer's fees against that defendant. who's who filed a counter claim for. defamation. So she did get his. defamation claim thrown out. She is. entitled to some measure of fees. We. knew that a year ago when that happened. And now that she's willingly settled all. the rest of her claims, whatever existed. of them, because most of her case got. thrown out, too. She's willingly walked. away from all of them, and she's trying.

to spin the remainder of those fees as. her big victory. She's won. You see, she's won. Meanwhile, we all knew you. were getting some measure of fees. Here's her lawyer on a podcast. um just. the other day. Hold on a second. It's uh. what's the name of this show? The town. And it was on May 8th. on a little spin. Okay, let's listen to. S. Is it uh well, you guys play it. You've been looking at it. I don't know. what you want. 19A.

>> So, let me tell you why our client is. happy, ecstatic with this settlement. The reason that our client is happy with. this settlement is because it gives her. the power and the opportunity to pursue. what we believe is her most potent and. powerful claim in a way that is. efficient, in a way that is final, in a. way that the defendants have no appeal. rights over and in a way that cuts off. uh most of the noise that would be. surrounding this case. And lets us get.

straight to the core issue of how the. defendants retaliated against her. specifically the retaliatory lawsuit. that they filed that called her a liar. that branded her a liar. And it's not. one of these statutes where there's. discretion for awarding the damages once. the conditions are met. And we believe. the conditions have essentially already. been met. And what's important about. that, Matt, is that they filed a $400. million defamation lawsuit against our. client, against Ryan Reynolds, against. Leslie Sloan. They claimed that all of. this was a lie. It was all made up and.

they were going to prove it in court. They lost that. Well, >> oh my god. >> Wait, can I just. >> to say that th this was the best claim. that they had all along for attorney. fees on the thrown out defamation cross. claim. That's what a what a revisionist. history, Gar. >> Well, first of all, this is what's. called antislap. And there is this. peculiar section 47.1 whatever it is. that says if you prevail, you can get.

your attorney's fees. um if somebody. comes after you. There's one problem. with that. As you pointed out, Judge. Lyman has had this on his docket, so to. speak, since last year. Number one. Number two, um Blake Lives Lively's. claims were just gutted like a rainbow. trout. Um. >> no, no. You see, you don't know what. you're talking about, Mark. This in fact. was her most potent and powerful claim. all along for the attorney's fees.

expended defending his defamation claim. And by the way, I think if somebody were. to check Pacer, which is the federal. electronic docket, I believe that that. gentleman who was interviewed just there. by the um uh I think that was by the. Puck outlet. I think he filed a request. or the one of his brethren filed a. request to augment the briefing of what. has been pending since last September.

asked for, I believe, a five-page brief. to supplement their arguments. That was. >> and he said no. >> Yeah. Sumearily denied in record time. for federal court. Number one. Number. two, remember Judge Lyman? I've said. this before. I don't know him, but I. knew his father and his father, Arthur. Lyman, was a lion of the bar and first. amendment. I mean, he was one of the. go-to lawyers. He I I don't know that.

the son falls too far from the father. but his father would have been appalled. by the idea of this section 47 that. somehow if you cross complain that you. are eliminated from the ability to. petition in court to vindicate your. rights because that's basically what it. is stipul stripping you of your rights. I just don't think number one that. there's going to be anything of great.

note. Number one. Number two, remember. all of this is speaking of noise are. there are probably 10 insurance. companies behind all of this fighting. for who's got to pay reservation of. rights, subregation, indemnification. This is never going to come out of their. pockets. It's always going to come out. of the insurance company pockets. Mhm. So, this is what I mean I'm going. to have to look it up in Black's Law. Dictionary, Matt, but this I believe. this is what we call lies. Um, what this.

lawyer is saying, this has been their. their purest and most potent claim all. along. Most po potent and most powerful. Those are lies. Take the next 22 seconds and weigh in. and then we'll come back right after. this break. Well, the funny thing for me. is watching Mark's face as we're both. listening to that clip because I can see. it and it's like we're both literally. laughing out loud. Albert Einstein had a. great had an great quote that applies to. the practice of law. He said, "If you. can't explain something simply, you. don't understand it well enough." And I.

could add or it's just pure spin and. that's what we're watching. It's just. you are so desperately trying to explain. this guy on this podcast. >> Yeah. I mean, >> wait. Stand by. Quick quick quick break. Back with these two guys on the opposite. side. Uh, don't go away. You might. already own a firearm, but what if you. could start with less lethal methods to. avoid the financial and mental. repercussions of pulling the trigger? This is where Burna comes in. That's by. Y RNA. BurnA's less lethal launchers are.

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There's no safe like Simplysafe. Matt, let me stick with you on just. continuing with the absurdity. I've got. some more from this lawyer, Michael. Gotautle, on the town, but um the notion. in there that she's ecstatic with the. settlement because her of her ability to. pursue this most potent and powerful. claim for attorney's fees, not damages, attorneys fees. So, what are you hoping to get here? Give me a best case scenario dollar.

amount that you could collect and from. who? >> So, I I want to step back from that. because this lawsuit has never been. principally about money for our client. It has been about accountability. It has. been about shining a light on this. underground smear machine that. retaliated against her for raising. claims of sexual harassment and. retaliation and has harmed so many other. people. And what you've seen since Blake. stood up and brought this lawsuit is.

evidence coming out in our case that has. led to to information being used now in. other litigations. uh the Nicholas case, um the Amanda Ghost case, this. underground smear machine has been. exposed and people are now on notice. Uh. that if they see uh you know, if you see. a Mattbellan sucks.net website pop up, you're going to maybe have an idea of. who might have put that website up. >> Really, we should be grateful to Blake. is what he's saying. Matt, no one's. going to get smeared anymore on the.

internet because of her. You know, it's. Mark and I actually had this. conversation before, Megan, and it it's. it's counterintuitive to me that when. you're talking about defamation, because. we learn in law school that in a. defamation case, truth is always an. absolute defense, right? So, in this. retaliation claim, one of the things I I. had a hard time wrapping my head around. is that truth would not operate as as a. defense. And if you look at the. interviews with Blake Lively and and. that that Norwegian journalist, her last.

name is uh Claus, I think. Um she just. looked. >> it's spelled Kajeri, but I've just. learned it's pronounced Sheri Shasty. Shasty, >> right? And she's here's this. >> I know who you. >> she's doing her job. It's some press. junket for a Woody Allen film from like. 2016. and she's just asking basic. questions and her Blake Lively and. Parker Posey. They transform into the. mean girls that we all saw in 8th grade. that we all every single person is. triggered who went to public school by.

it's like we we see that, you know what. I mean? And and the idea that that got. released and somehow they can point the. finger back and blame Jason Baldon or. anybody else for that. I mean, she's. she's got to live with that. And I'm not. over Parker Posie either. She was also. kind of a freaking. >> No, >> really mean. >> She looked terrible. She She was equally. nasty. >> Yeah. So, you heard it there, Mark. That. that basically there's not going to be. any more harassment on the internet. because of Blake Lively. This is a.

fantasy. >> Harassment on the internet was a thing. before this trial, this case, and it. will be a thing after this case. We're. allowed to dislike her. We're allowed to. write terrible things about her when. it's phrased in terms of our opinion. You can't make up facts about somebody. that are false. But if we think she's a. terrible, spoiled, mean girl bully, we're free to say that. And we do think. that. And we think that based on the. interview with Chasty among many other.

clips and behaviors by Blake Lively. And. for this guy to be pretending that she. was really just an avenger for others. Meanwhile, you and I both know it was. her thin t her tissue paper thin skin. that led her to bring this laws scope. because she was like, "There's no way. anyone could possibly just hate me. organically. Justin had to have made it. happen.". >> Can you imagine? Just do this thought. experiment. Can you imagine how. disappointed. my good friend Brian Freriedman was to.

not be able to try this case against. this guy? I mean, people talk about. cross-examining Blake and whatever, but. for people who do this for a living, when you get an opponent or an adversary. that is this tonedeaf, you have to say. to yourself, and I've I've had this so. many times where guys have told me, "I've never lost a case," and blah blah. blah. Usually some US attorney, but big. firm lawyers suffer from the same thing.

because they're in that same axis of. evil, so to speak. They there is a. tonedeaf removal from reality that you. just they just don't understand. The. person who interviewed him in this, you. should read the kind of tongue and cheek. or maybe it was their uh website. yesterday article about how bad this. interview was. And it just to Matt's. point and to what my father used to say. is clients get the lawyers they deserve.

And boy, that holds true here. >> Yeah. And Justin Baldoni did too. There's one more. >> Um the questioning was about whether he. had the right strategy, right? Is that. the one? Is that the I'm looking at my S. list here. Yeah. Let's listen to S 19 C. The lesson from this case, isn't it that. you have to think really, really hard. before you initiate a case like this? If. you are a major celebrity and you have.

brand businesses and a film career and. you want that to be what people know. about you, not the back and forth bombs. being dropped, >> I think you got to wait and see what we. accomplish in our 471 before you write. the final chapter of that book. But what. I would say, Matt, is I don't think it's. an option to sit back and let people. assassinate your character and. reputation with untraceable digital. smear campaigns. I think when you. discover that somebody has done that to.

you, that bringing that to light and. holding those people accountable um is. important. And I think that what um Miss. Lively's lawsuit has shown is that there. actually is a way to do that. You can. shine a light on it. >> This Matt Murphy, this is so wrong on so. many levels. Okay, can I just tell you I. I've told the audience this before, but. back in 201617 when Trump and I were. going round and round for nine months, he was coming for me. Um, and then I. left Fox and I went to NBC, David Pcker,

who owned and ran the National Enquirer. was out to get me. I mean, I can't even. count the number of hit pieces that he. dropped. I was literally on the cover of. the National Enquirer with the headline, "World's Most Hated Mom." Okay. with on. the cover with my picture. Now, did I. try to get to the B? It's David Pecker. He's friends with Trump. This these are. lies he's telling. Not the most hated. There are a lot of more hated people. What about Casey Anthony? SHE KILLED HER.

TODDLER. SHE'S DEFINITELY more hated. than I. I'm like, "No, no, I didn't.". Because as I once told my own children. as we walked by a different headline. that was negative about me at a kiosk on. a cover of a magazine when they said why. don't you fight back against that mom as. I told him at the time because the. people who want to believe these lies. always will and the people who don't. require no correction. He's just wrong. He's wrong in his PR strategy and he's.

wrong about what this whole thing did to. Blake Lively. She is not in a better. place now than she was prior to this. >> No, she everybody looked at the videos. and saw for themselves, right? There's. another video uh where she did an. interview where she said, "I can't feel. fulfilled unless I have authorship over. the project. I don't want to just be an. actor who shows up and stands on a. spot." It's a it's a clip that's. >> that is also made the rounds now. Everybody has seen it and it makes her. look absolutely terrible. So maybe these. are bad moments, but these are all.

things that she went out and did and. said herself. Another thing, Megan, and. and I think this will this is something. Mark and I were talking about the other. day. Um, and I I don't know. It's an. allegation that's out there, but to get. text messages between Jason Baldon and. his publicist, there's a there's a an. allegation that they set up a sham. lawsuit, they being um Blake Lively's. team, where they sued this publicist to. get the phone to release these text. messages to the LA Times. I don't know.

if it's true, but if it is, that is some. really shady stuff that I think the New. York State Bar should look into if it's. true. And so to to to do all that and. come out and talk about spin machines, um, you know, that's pretty rich. >> Look, you also. >> Well, because the thing is, Mark, at no. point was what are have the allegations. by Blake been excuse me, they made up. lies about me and used this PR firm to. push them? It's that they just made her.

look bad. That they had a campaign to. get her by using her actual videos and. her promo interviews to promote the film. and to spread them with the the New York. Post or the Daily Mail in a way that she. thought was unflattering. But I did not. see in her complaint, they made up a lie. that I. fired a pregnant girl. They made up a. lie that I was, you know, uniformly.

abusive to the staff. That's that wasn't. the nature of her campa campaign. It was. that you intentionally spread mean. things about me. They may have been. mean, but they were true. >> You want to know the cynic in me who who. as a practical matter will tell you what. I think is happening here. When when. Blake Lively's case was gutted by Judge. Lyman, he issued an order. If you read. that order, he was unflinching in his.

criticism of her lawyers to the point. where it explains why if what is being. reported is true, as soon as they saw. that order, as soon as her case was. gutted, she had a monstrous legal. malpractice action against her lawyers. How do her lawyers solve that problem? They immediately beg Baldon's team to go. into private mediation. You might say,

"Well, how is that going to solve. anything?" There's a Supreme Court case. in California that says, and mind you, they mediated this in California with a. California based, California, Hawaii. based mediator is my understanding. The. California Supreme Court case says if. you go through private mediation, you. can't sue your lawyer for legal. malpractice. So what this was was a very. sophisticated legal strategy to insulate.

the big firm from getting sued for the. tens of millions of dollars for what. could have been argued was the if you. read Judge Lyman's order missteps by her. lawyers. That's just the cynic in me. explaining why all this happened. Then. what happens? Brian goes out and. declares victory and these guys now have. to concoct. No, BUT WHAT ABOUT 47.1 AND. OUR LAWYERS fees which everybody knows.

the insurance company's going to pick up. for anyway. So talk about just a being a. cynic here. What has happened here is. really kind of one of the downsides if. you will to when you let when you have. too much money. It was the It's a kind. of a take on the Richard old Richard. Prior joke that um having a big firm. represent you in a civil case is God's. way of telling you you make too much. money.

>> So because one of the things I mean the. the main thrust of her case was the. sexual harassment claim and it was based. on a contract between the parties that. never existed. That's what came out in. the course of discovery. She never had a. signature by the wayfarer defendants, that's Justin's uh production company. And they tried to scramble on team. Blake's uh like attorneys to say, well, there was this one that they signed and.

so it was this version. But the court. was like many other versions came after. that. They they may have signed this. one, but there wasn't a meeting of the. minds yet. There were like nine versions. of this contract. and you're asking me. to enforce it. Which version do I. enforce? Do I enforce the ninth version. that they left after that they kind of. whatever everybody moved on after that? Or is it the one version that might have. had a signature but it wasn't. countersigned? Like I I'm not I I can't. divine agreement. I it has to be shown.

to me on a piece of paper with two. signatures which any firstear law. student knows. So, how did we get to the. point in this case where these, you. know, storied lawyers didn't understand. that their main claim is not supported. by any document? That's a very. interesting theory. All right. So, now, so she will get her attorney's fees. What do you make of the fact though that. the judge is they they wanted to brief. it again. They went back in, Matt, and. said, "Give us another chance." They.

already briefed it. They briefed it. They submitted it. They say, "Oh, she's. got some $400, $400 million in damages, whatever." They briefed attorney's fees. and she wants them trebled, meaning. tripled, which is potentially a. possibility under the anti-slap statute. that they're su they're getting the fees. under. And the judge just came out, we. just saw the order because originally he. hadn't actually issued the order, now. we've got it saying um the court does. not require additional briefing at this. time. So, order Lewis J. Lyman May 11th,

2026. So, he's not into it. He doesn't. want to hear anything more from them. He's probably got his mind made up. Do. you think he's going to give them some. huge award with and then triple it? >> No. In a word, no. I don't see that. happening at all. I think Mark's exactly. right. The apple didn't fall far from. the tree and his his dad was a First. Amendment um you know, pillar. And this. judge is over it, Megan. He's figured. this out. I think he's sorted out the. egos. He's read everything. He knows.

what this is. And another thing that. Mark and I were talking about the other. day is when you get into these cases. with celebrities and and again Mark has. has dealt with this way more than I. have, but I've had a few. It is it is. amazing to me how we get this image of. how glamorous they are and all the money. and all the power and the red carpets. and then you get into you look beyond. the curtain and you see you know text. messages and you see a lot of petty. really small human beings like they're. they are um you know the the reality.

often times is um is is almost so. disappointing because they're not as. smart as the characters they play and. and they get in these petty egoofueled. feuds. And when you've got all the money. in the world behind you, you wind up in. situations like this. I think somebody. finally pulled her aside and said, "You. are you have lost this battle. You're. you're destroying your career. Read the. comments section of some of these. things. You look terrible and it's so. bad you're dragging your husband into. it." That's my guess. And that that.

Yeah, I'm sure the word ecstatic because. of her attorney's fees is so laughably. just ridiculous. But um but look, this. is this is one of those look for I I. approach everything, Megan, in my. experience from a position of victims. And I've represented women since I've. been in private practice who were. legitimate real victims of sexual. harassment from people that were in. positions of power. I know you've had. that experience. Like that's a real. thing. And it's kind of like Amber Heard. and the Johnny Depp stuff. When you It's.

like we should believe victims until we. shouldn't. And when it comes to this. sort of thing, when you when you march. out there and say, "I'm going to do this. on behalf of all people who have been. subjected to sexual harassment, you. undermine them. You undermine the real. victims when, in my opinion, you do. stuff like this." And Mark had a great. point the other day. >> Blake Lively, when the judge gutted the. cases because she was an independent. contractor and not an employee, that was. the the technical reason. She could have. taken an off-ramp right then and there.

and said, "I'm going to now rally so. that independent contractors also have. protections under the law for sexual. harassment." And she didn't do that. And. she could have done that. And Mark said. it was a great point. If they'd enacted. a federal law, they would have called it. the Blake Lively Act. And she could have. then she could have been a hero. But she. didn't take it. She didn't do it because. in my opinion, she was driven by ego and. trying to settle a score. And and and. that's that's what this whole thing is. about. And like Brian has been saying all.

along, Mark Ergos, he knew she, it's one. thing to say in a complaint to the. California Human Rights Office, one. thing, but when you're on the stand. under oath being cross-examined by. Brian, it's quite another to try to back. up those claims about they walked in on. me in my dressing room when I was. breastfeeding my baby against my will. and then confronted with a text message. saying, >> "Come on in.". >> Um, come on in. and I'm breastfeeding my. baby, but it's fine. I. >> By the way,

>> it's going to get ripped apart. >> I don't know if I and I I'm sure you've. told it before, but I will tell it again. for you. Brian became your lawyer. because he started off as opposing. counsel against you. And I that's some. of the the best kind of lawyering you. can do is when your opponent says, "No, no, no. I'm hiring this guy so I never. have to deal with him again. And Garos, I started off like, I can't stand this. prick. He is such an I cannot.

stand him. I hated him when he was. taking um Wait, no. When we were taking. the deposition of his client, he was. like interfering in a way, you know, you. don't like speaking objections at a. deposition, right? I was like, I can't. stand him. I didn't like the way he. talked to my lawyer. And so, finally, we. get to the point where he's deposing me. And I was like, I was ready. Of course, I'd been a litigator for 10 years at. Jones Day. This is not my first rodeo. I. was totally ready for him and I fell in.

love with him. Like, he's so charming. He's so smart. He's raising good points. We're having a great back and forth. I. had no stakes. Like, I I whatever. It. was very clear where this was going to. go. Brian inherited it. He didn't. actually take this case. Um it was kind. of given to him, but. >> we bonded over these eight hours in a. way where I was like, I think I made a. friend for life. That case went away. And then when I got in trouble with NBC, it's a long story that I will tell. someday in full, but um an agent. connected me with Brian and the agent.

fled, but Brian stayed with me and he. was like, "Just so you know, I don't. give an F," only he said the word what. anybody thinks of me. I've got you. And. it was like that was it. We were off to. the races. And he hammered them. He got. me everything I deserved. And that was. really the beginning, like another. beginning for Brian who is already very. well respected, but of this like niche. practice he's really created where like.

any big talent in a serious fight with. somebody who's generally a bully on the. other side calls Brian, you know, like. Chris Cuomo and Don Lemon hired him from. CNN. Um, Gabrielle Union hired him when. NBC started messing with her. Um, Justin. Baldoni, uh, there there's been a long. list now, but like he's the go-to if you. want to if if you're an individual. getting bullied by some massive entity.

on the other side. And that's really. what Blake Lively has been. She and her. dragons with Ryan and Taylor and she and. Justin had no power in comparison to. them. You go to Brian and he is a master. of the dark arts in a great way. Garrick, >> and by the way, that's also one of the. reasons I love Matt Murphy and I love. Brian both because when you're opposing. somebody who's truly talented like Matt. was as a prosecutor, Brian was because. we first were at odds with one another.

Those are the that's the long long lost. friendships. I mean, with Matt, I often. say one of one of the clients, I'll. never forget with him, and he and what. endeared me to him is I at one point got. so frustrated at him for wanting state. prison on my client, that I lashed out. and said, "You would prosecute Romeo for. stalking Juliet if you had your way.". And and that he laughed and finally gave. me what I wanted because he could see. how frustrated I was.

>> He's laughing now. >> I had the same I had the same experience. with Brian. I was just the He was beding. me on something and finally uh finally. we resolved it and the they're two of my. closest friends in the world. >> No, it's funny, isn't it? It's like it's. like those it's like those fights on the. playground when you're in fourth grade. Like it like two boys fighting on the. playground, they're going to be best. friends by the end of the day, you know? And that's you really do. It really is a. a function of that. And I was thinking. the exact same thing, Mark. I wasn't. going to say it, but yeah, you really.

do. You get to learn in an adversarial. process, especially when you're in a. good hard fight, you get to learn your. opponent in a lot of ways better than. their own colleagues do because you see. them under pressure. You're creating the. pressure. You see how they respond and. you really can develop a a true healthy. respect for somebody like that. And. that's why um you know, number one, Megan, that's why you you brought in. Brian Freriedman. Number two, why I. would hire Mark Keros if I was in. trouble tomorrow in an instant um to.

defend me because. >> totally Yeah, same. And now they work. together so it would be super easy or. you um I I I don't know. I feel like. this is I believe you when you say this. is how boys like resolve things on the. playground. Girls instead of doing that. will just say nothing and then stick. needles in your back, knives in your. back for years quietly and your life. will slowly be destroyed. You won't know. why. So, it's like it's a different kind. of playground. I'd put the girls revenge. up against the boys and I'd much rather. just have a playground fight where we.

punch in the face. >> Having raised a ball busting lawyer. myself, I have I was shocked in when she. was in fourth grade at what those girls. did to one another. It was it was it was. like nothing I'd ever experienced up. until then. >> Yes. It's it's like a right of passage. sadly for a lot of women. But boy oh. boy, you you you get tougher. That's for. damn sure. All right, before we go, I. want to put a period at the end of the. the MJ discussion because the real.

question is what what now is going to be. his his legacy? Because this is a fight. for legacy and for money. In the New. York Times, the daily podcast, Mark, they pointed out that there was. testimony that on the day Michael died, he had his his brand was worth like $24. He had not a lot of money left in the. coffers. The estate was very worried. that it wasn't going to be able to. generate any dough because it was so. smeared, you know, with these. allegations. But now, we've had the MJ.

musical, which has defied expectations. and become a smash hit for 5 years with. nearly sold out venues. We've had the. Cirtole. Now we have this movie with hundreds of. millions already and on track to. potentially make a billion dollars. And. the filmmakers, which is really the. estate, saying we have another one that. we can release quickly in the hopper, which may or may not cover all the stuff. we've been discussing. You know, there. are some legal impediments to them doing.

it given like deals that have been. signed, but it's it's a fight for them. to continue earning and to restore his. legacy. The family says they don't. believe any of these allegations and. they they want the legacy restored. Can. that be done? And will the public allow. it? >> Well, if you want my my non-legal. answer, my non-legal answer is based on. my experience, yes, the public will. allow it. And the fact that it is. exceeded everybody's expectations in.

terms of the box office on this thing. tells you all you need to know. No, I. mean even though there there will be. other as I mentioned before, there will. be other documentaries out, there will. be other productions out because money. spawns money and that is going to. triumph in the end unfortunately or. fortunately depending on who's looking. at it. >> What do you think, Matt? >> Yeah, I think Mark's right. And. remember, you know, these songs are so.

iconic that when you hear one, um, it it. brings us back to a point in our life. like, hey, that was from 10th grade or, you know, we remember these parties and. I it they're so personal to everybody. because he was so huge. I mean, he was. the largest pop star in the world. And. look, I've dedicated my life to fighting. um my professional life anyway to. fighting child molesters basically um. and those who would sexually pray on. others. And I think that um you know in. the world of cancellation he's dead. Um. so I think that I don't know um and this.

might be controversial. It's just me but. I think we all need to allow ourselves. to enjoy the music. Other people are. making that money now. Um and it's also. a fascinating iconic you know um fall. from grace and people can't can't stay. away from that. So I think both aspects. of that story are going to go. I think. it's going to continue to make money and. people are still going to talk about the. implications of sexual assault and. taking advantage of little kids and you. know whether it's true or not true. I. think it's going to be uh it's going to. continue to be a part of our cultural.

landscape for a long time. >> Yeah. I mean dying is the ultimate. cancellation. He he certainly was. canceled. Um, I I I feel like one aspect. of it that wasn't discussed that really. is a critical piece of the story is the. parents who allowed their seven-year-old. children to spend the night at a. grown-up's house who, you know, wasn't a. parent and um in his bed. Like they knew.

they knew that this was happening and. they allowed it. And the children who. are now grown say it's tough, especially. when you don't have a lot of money as a. kid and the world's greatest pop star. pays attention to you and wants to be. your friend and and had a decent. narrative of I'm just a big kid myself. It's not that I'm a molester. It's that. I'm just a big I never got to grow up. And and it was very persuasive because. he did have a very abusive father. He. had a childhood where he worked all the.

time. He was obviously stunted in some. ways. He was childlike even as a. grown-up. So, it's kind of like, okay, I. can see it. You know, Neverland looks. like a an amusement park. His room looks. like a Peter Pan book. He is kind of a. big, you know, you could go with it if. you wanted to delude yourself into. thinking there's no risks here. Most. normal people never would, but I'm just. saying this is what the parents convince. themselves of. And this is just not a. good idea. Nope. No normal man wants a. child in his bed. They just don't. It's.

one thing if you have a kid and he's. sick and he comes in the middle of the. night. I'm not talking about that. I'm. talking about strange man who's not. related to your child who wants him to. sleep in his bed. It's a hard no. Uh so. maybe that is potentially helpful to. anybody out there listening. Guys, looking forward to many more episodes of. In the Well. Everybody go and subscribe. at mktrime.com. Thanks for being here. Thank you, Megan. >> Thanks, Megan. Bye, Matt. >> All right. And we'll see all of you.

tomorrow with Mark Halprren and our deep. dive on Katie Porter and how she she has. been victimized, my friend. She she's. the victim. That's what you need to. know. And more on that tomorrow.