The Full BOMBSHELL Lance Twiggs Video, Plus New Robinson Texts Revealed, with MK True Crime and Frei

Hey everyone, I'm Megan Kelly. Welcome. to the Megan Kelly show. We are in day. four of the Tyler Robinson preliminary. hearing. It's happening right now. The. man accused of murdering our friend. Charlie Kirk with the most anticipated. moment of the entire week expected any. moment now. That is the recorded. interview between prosecutors and Lance. Twigs, the alleged trans furry lover and. roommate of Tyler Robinson. This has. been a major point of contention between. the prosecution and the defense. They.

have spent hours arguing over what would. be played, how much of it, and how much. the public will get to see. The lawyer. for Erica Kirk and her family has even. now gotten involved filing this document. demanding that they be able to see and. hear what the court is going to see and. hear. There's some restriction on what. they're going to put out to the media, but Charlie's widow would like to know. what the evidence is in her husband's.

murder case. It is ridiculous how weak. this judge has been. He was only put on. the bench last May. You can tell he's. not confident. He is overly indulgent of. the defense's objections, whereas a. seasoned jurist would have dismissed. most of them out of hand. noted. overruled. Let's move on. He takes every. single objection as seriously as as if. the US Supreme Court is going to weigh.

in on every single one. He doesn't have. the confidence to put the ones that are. serious and actually could get him in. this trial in trouble in one category. and the ones that are obviously. prefuncter and mentioned to preserve a. record uh in a different category. And. it's delaying this proceeding. interminably. It is unfair. And by the. way, he is treating the Kirk family like. they are bystanders there with. absolutely no stake in this thing. So. they've filed this motion saying under.

Utah law, the crime victim's families. have a right. We have a literally we. have a literal right under Utah law to. be informed of, to be present at, and to. be heard at important criminal justice. hearings related to the victim. and they. say that that is no that right is. toothless if we're not allowed to see. the evidence. How can we be excluded. from the people who can see the. evidence? The right to be present is. hollow, they write, if the victim or his.

representative is physically in the room. but is prevented from seeing the. evidence the court is receiving. A right. to attend that does not include the. ability to perceive what is happening is. not meaningful presence at all. consistent with statutory command that. victim's rights be protected no less. vigorously than the defendants. The. victim's family's presence must be a. real one. The ability to observe in real. time the evidence presented in the. courtroom they are entitled to occupy.

This judge is taking it under. advisement. He's going to look at it. Okay. Right now at 12:03 Eastern time, they are still haggling over which lines. from the Lance Twig testimony will be. removed from the public's hearing. We're. not we're not going to see the video. The defense won that objection. Why? Because they show him certain exhibits. That makes no sense that they're not in. evidence yet. Okay, you could redact the. video for those portions. Why don't we.

get any video? It's absurd. Makes no. sense. This is a preliminary hearing. You can have a witness take the stand. and look at non-introduced exhibits. And. by the way, now the defense, our friend. Brian Anton is saying, "Oh, many lawyers. are objection or saying that that that. that this is um somehow a fatal flaw. potentially that that Lance Twigs wasn't. cross-examined in this video and won't. be able to be cross-examined." That's. not true. Witnesses, you're not entitled. to cross-examination at a preliminary.

hearing. That's not something that you. necessarily get. that's not going to. clear this deal. Um there's the. prosecution is not doing anything wrong. and the judge is treating them like. they're trying to pull a fast one here, indulging every every single. banal baseless objection by the team. representing the defendant uh that they. make. It's just maddening. So, as they rail over each word that we. will or will not be able to hear in the.

audio only portion of Lance Twig's. testimony, we are going to do a deep dive for you. on Lance Twigs, the man at the center of. this hearing today. Um, so we're going to get you up to. speed on him and then as they bring us. his testimony, we'll take that in real. time. In September, a popular YouTuber by the name of Tom. Swanson, who's known as Turkey Tom, that's his moniker at the platform,

dropped a bombshell report about Lance. Twigs and Tyler Robinson. Swanson claims. that a friend of Robinson's and Twigs. reached out to him, providing him with. new details about their relationship, what life was like inside their. apartment, and the events leading up to. the shooting. First, some background on. Tom Swanson. He's very popular on. YouTube. He has over 1.5 million. subscribers. He puts out long- form. documentary style videos about online. controversies, mostly to do with. internet and gaming culture. And that is.

clearly how this person found him. In. September, he covered Charlie's murder. in a 40minute video that he posted to. YouTube. Watch. >> who was actually behind the. assassination. A whole day and a half. after the shooting, on the evening of. the 11th, the pictures of the killer in. a cap and dark glasses were released. One of Tyler's friends, who was in the. same Discord server with about 18 other. people, sent the picture to their chat, jokingly remarking that it looked like. Tyler, [music] and asking him where he. was at. Tyler responded saying that his.

doppelganger did it, to which someone. else sarcastically replied, "Tyler. killed Charlie." Clearly, the mere. concept of Tyler doing such a thing was. something his acquaintances wouldn't. even consider. He was a seemingly. intelligent guy, as his mother proudly. bragged on Facebook about his 4.0 GPA. He was a mildmannered indoorsman who. gamed a lot. And although he wasn't a. Republican like the rest of his family, he also wasn't even registered to vote. and didn't express his opinions that. much.

Swanson says after that someone familiar. with both Robinson and Twigs reached out. to him. This person wanted to remain. anonymous. He says, but says that they. have been friends with Robinson and. Twigs for six years and that this. source, this friend counted them as. close friends of his. Swanson says this. person provided Swanson with a multitude. of information to verify this person's. identity. They also provided photos from. inside Twigs and Robinson's apartment, drawings allegedly made by Lance Twigs,

and Discord archives of three servers. that this person claims they that he was. in along with Twigs and Robinson. Swanson says to his knowledge, the only. other people who have the Discord. servers outside of the people who were. in them is the FBI. Now, we reached out. to Swanson and he stood by his story. So. to be clear, this is Swanson's. reporting. We have not independently. verified the messages sent by the. anonymous friend. We did reach out to. the FBI who told us they do not comment.

on ongoing investigations. The Swanson. report was picked up by various outlets. online, but others questioned it. Some. specifically wondering whether Swanson. was being used by someone, possibly the. government, to spread information they. wanted into the public domain. Fair. question. We have no way of verifying or. dismissing those suspicions. But since. the court has decided to allow such. secrecy around the Twigs video, we. decided to air on the side of more.

disclosure and let viewers decide of. what value this is. Twigs has refused to. speak with the media, including us. The. Daily Mail reporter uh the Daily Mail. reports that he and his family have now. moved to Texas uh where the Mail caught. up with Twigs on route to or from a Taco. Bell and they report that he refused to. speak with them. Swanson, meantime, said. he did reach out to Twigs after getting. this report from the alleged friend and. reports that Twigs told him he could not.

say anything due to the ongoing. investigations. The Megan Kelly show. also attempted to connect with Lance. Twigs and with Swanson's source, but we. received no response. A family member of. Lance Twigs did speak with Brian Enton. of News Nation back in January. Here is. what she said just to set this up about. Twigs and Robinson and those now. infamous texts that allegedly were. exchanged right after the shooting. There's text messages between Tyler and.

Lance um where they're texting. >> after the event. >> A lot of people find them unusual. >> Mhm. The world that they were in like this. gaming world like that was a normal way. that they kind of spoke that it this. wasn't an abnormal the way they spoke. wasn't abnormal. The FBI has said all along that Twigs is. cooperating with the authorities. First, we'll start with what this anonymous.

friend said about Lance Twigs. We did. not censor or redact these texts. Swanson said he did censor parts of the. texts in order to keep his sourc's. identity private. The friend was a. wealth of information. For example, he. told Swanson that Robinson and Twig's. apartment would quote drastically shift. from clean to super dirty depending on. the state of Lance's mood. He said they. would have friends over, but everyone. would kind of get weirded out by all the. trash. The friend said Twigs basically.

had layers of wires, random timu. trinkets, decorations, random art. projects, clothes, and empty alcohol. containers everywhere. And if anyone. touched it, he'd get livid. The friend. provided this photo allegedly from. inside the apartment. He said twigs. would have piles and piles of random. messes like this all over the home, but. usually it was much worse than what you. see in this photo. For the listening. audience, it's a long table like you. might set up at a Thanksgiving dinner um.

with just wires and electronics and a. mess all over it. The friend went on. writing, "Tyler, was always really. level-headed and easygoing, but Lance. could be anywhere from too depressed to. talk to to manic, wideeyed, crazy. person. End quote." The friend said. Tyler Robinson loved to talk about. hunting, camping, and gaming, but that. Lance Twigs had a different personality. If he became too depressed, he would.

take the day off work and just scroll. online while vaping. He said Twigs also. had a habit of doing experiments in the. kitchen using Tupperware to grow mold. He also accused Twigs of doing all kinds. of drugs, weed, LSD, DMT, and shrooms. He said Twigs consumed quote alcoholic. levels of alcohol. DMT is a. hallucinogenic tryptoamine drug that. produces a brief but intense visual and. auditory hallucinogenic experience. The. friend gave details about Twigs's.

alleged relationship with his family, writing, quote, "Lance has always been a. little weird and quirky, but never. really crazy. He was constantly arguing. with his mom every time he saw her, and. then ranting about Republicans and. Mormons when he got home.". Swanson reports that the friend told him. that one day Twigs announced he was. transgender. The friend did not give a. time frame of when this exchange. happened, writing, quote, "He told me he. was trans and that it wouldn't change. anything and that I could even use. whatever pronouns and he wouldn't care.

end." The friend said after Twigs came. out as transgender, Twigs started to. clean up the house and became quote. normal. The friend group returned to. having in-person gaming nights. And the. friend said at first he didn't realize. that there was a romantic relationship. developing between Twigs and Tyler. Robinson, writing quote, "One of my gym. buddies was the first to pick up on. Tyler and Lance being really close. I. was in denial for months because I. thought Tyler was straight and also I.

kind of did not want it to be true. Eventually, I kind of snapped out of it, like the ninth time I saw them asleep. and cuddling on the couch." The friend. said at one point he became. uncomfortable seeing the pair constantly. making out. The friend said they started. noticing changes in Twigs as the. presidential election of 2024 got. closer. He claims Twigs started. complaining about people staring at him, which the friend thought was weird since. Twigs did not care what pronouns people. even used for him and had not done much.

to mask his biological sex besides. changing his hairstyle and wearing. mascara. Regarding Tyler Robinson, quote, "Tyler wouldn't really get. political until after the election. He'd. sometimes just casually bring up the. latest thing Trump had done and complain. about what it would do to the country, but in a very level-headed way. End. quote. Then he continued, "After the. election, they became a lot more. political, but not to an extremist. level. By this point, I could safely say. Lance and Tyler were some flavor of.

leftwing, but never anything I thought. was like dangerous.". The friend also describes Twigs quote. beginning to grow breasts. The friend. does not give a time frame of when this. happened, but it seems it would have. been in late summer, early fall 2025, writing, quote, "A couple months before, we noticed Lance had been growing. breasts and said that he'd been taking. black market HRT, which I do not know. what that would entail, but I think it. was making him very erratic." By black.

market HRT, we believe he's referring to. hormone replacement medications obtained. without a prescription or medical. supervision. Obviously, that would come. with all sorts of risks, including the. drugs being counterfeit, corrupted, or. the wrong dosage. The friend said that. in January 2025, the group held another. in-person gaming night. Twigs threw. cards and seemed erratic, writing, quote, "Lance had gone upstairs and gone. into full tantrum mode and was thrashing. around on the floor while Tyler tried to.

calm him down." This would be, by our. account, 9 months before Charlie's. murder. After that, Lance went. mental. This is in quotes. And he'd be. super wideeyed with either a loopy grin. or a Rictus grin, like the. Joker, depending on his mood. The friend. wrote that Twigs began making weird. drawings while giggling, performing more. experiments, and hardly ever slept. The. friend telling Swanson, quote, "The. experiments got scarier, too, like jugs. of water with whisks full of aluminum.

foil that had two copper wires coming. out of them." The friend also sent. Swanson several photos of drawings he. claims twigs made and left all over the. apartment. In this one, you see the. drawing reads, "Stabilize and calm. down." In this one, near the crease, it. reads, "I'm alone.". The friend sent Swanson numerous photos. of the scribbles. It's unclear when. these photos were taken, either before. or after Charlie's murder. We don't.

know. But you see, the drawings are on. post-it notes, inside journals, books, and letter paper. The friend, Swanson. claims, told him that while these. drawings look creepy, what was scarier. was how Twigs would giggle as he drew. The friend writing, quote, "If I were. religious, I would have called an. exorcist. The smile was so. scary.". Twigs also apparently started using chat. GPT to solve equations backwards. The. friend said the chats went on forever.

and that Tyler Robinson said at one. point that Twigs had been up for three. straight days talking to ChatGpt. The friend writing to Swanson, again, that's Turkey Tom from whom we're. getting this reporting, quote, "Twigs. would sometimes just be sobbing in. Tyler's arms, and Tyler would be rocking. him back and forth. We all thought Tyler. was a trooper for putting up with Lance. in that state.". The friend also sent Swanson a photo of. a condom on a bathroom sink and wrote,

"Crazily enough, while Lance was like. that, Tyler was still hitting that.". Obviously, he means the pair was having. sex. The friend said that at some point prior. to Charlie's murder, Lance Twigs had. apparently begun seeing a psychologist, writing, quote, "We all thought Lance. would be okay because he had Tyler, who. was basically his handler at this point, to take care of him. But then Twigs got. in a fight with his grandfather and his. car was taken away.".

The friend continued, quote, "I imagine. Lance was just alone with Tyler in the. apartment, just driving Tyler. crazy. I'd be hardressed to stay sane. while living alone with Lance while he's. like that." Swanson claims the friend. told Swanson that the friend moved away, but would still have Discord calls with. Twigs and Robinson, writing, quote, "Lance joined and would say like one. thing, then be silent, and Tyler would. talk just normally. Tyler even joined. the call like two weeks before the. assassination and acted completely.

normal. End quote. The friend also. addressed Robinson's alleged confession. messages to Twigs. In the messages, Robinson refers to Twigs as my love, which many people have remarked sounds. odd for two Gen Z young men. Swanson. reports that the friend told him, "It is. true that Robinson would use that term. of affection for twigs, writing, for the. record, Tyler 100% calls Lance my love. when they are talking alone. That more.

than anything makes those texts real to. me." End quote. The friend Swanson. claims concluded by writing about. Robinson's demeanor after Charlie's. shooting. quote, "After talking to. another friend, apparently right after. he did the shooting, he joined a bunch. of different Discord calls asking if. anyone had seen the news while breathing. heavily. And literally the next day, he. was in the call just chatting with. people, playing one of his puzzle. games." As we mentioned, the friend also.

appears to have sent Tom Swanson Discord. logs. They date back to 2020. Most of. them are just back and forth jokes, but. one of them is dark. When you see these. on the screen, Tyler Robinson is zealous. monkey. Lance twigs twigs is. fluxalottle. Any other name in the conversation has. been blacked out by Tom Swanson. A. friend writes, quote, they should remake. Snakes on a Plane, but instead of snakes. killing people on a plane, dot dot dot, Robinson responds, snakes on a peen,

Twigs responds, gross. The friend. responds, quote, "Nobody said gross when. you said you wanted to f your 2-year-old. cousin, Lance." End quote. Obviously, we don't know the context of. that message or whether Twigs ever made. such a statement. Maybe the friend was. just joking around, but it's obviously. disturbing. The friend who Swanson says sent him. these messages made no allegations even. remotely like that in his own messages.

about Twigs. It's unclear if the friend in the. Discord chat is the same one who. contacted Swanson, but there are a few. more notable messages and they include. this one from Tyler Robinson. It was. written in 2020 and it reads, quote, I. wish at least like antivax. wasn't protected under freedom of speech. because it's speech that actively harms. people. It's very interesting. He's. starting to make distinctions between. speech that's okay and speech that's not.

okay. and and harmful speech being on. the not okay list. Robinson also took issue with being. called a furry by the friend back in 20. who who also took issue with being. called a furry by the friend back in. 2020. Um writes this, "The country's. going to I told someone I wasn't. going to watch their anime one time and. get called a goddamn furry." So he wrote. there they didn't appreciate that. But. then of course he goes on to date a.

furry and worse. I'm going to get to it. in a second. In 2023, Robinson allegedly. wrote about the trade school he was then. attending. Quote, "Second day of. electrical school. We're doing basic. math like learning fractions and I. paid tuition for this." In July 2024, Robinson purportedly wrote about the. assassination attempt on Donald Trump's. life. Quote, "Snowflake liberals can't. shoot straight because they're too busy. being gay.". It's very interesting that he's. lamenting antivax speak in 2020 and in.

2024. talks about snow snowflake liberals who. can't shoot straight. In September of. 2025, we're told he shot Charlie Kirk because. some hate can't be negotiated out. In June of last year, Twigs also posted. about a no Kings protest against. President Trump, asking if anyone wanted. to go to it. It's unclear if he went or. if anyone responded. Tom Swanson also.

detailed some of the other online. accounts belonging to Robinson, who. according to Swanson had been railing. against being called a furry in 2020, but was now listing his pronouns as they. them and mentioning a furry website. Watch. >> Tyler had a few blurbs of unusual online. presence that I hadn't seen. For. example, he had a deviant art under his. older handle crafting 247 where he lists. himself as they/ them. It's not possible. for this account to belong to someone. else that created it after the.

assassination as it was created 2 years. ago. Then we have another account with. the same exact handle this time on Fur. affinity, but there doesn't seem to be. any significant activity on it just like. on Deviant Art. And for those of you who. don't know, Fur affinity is like the the. furry website. It's the number one furry. website. Okay. Then there's this final message. This is. the full alleged Discord chat of. Robinson confessing to murdering Charlie. Kirk to the group which investigative. journalist Ken Clippenstein reported in.

the days following the shooting. Reading. from the bottom up, September 10th. Friend Charlie Kirk got shot dead. Another friend, I just saw the video. Holy Rest in peace, I guess. Bro. didn't deserve to go out like that. sad. Someone appearing to be Robinson then. writes the next day, "Hey guys, I have. bad news for you all. It was me at UVU. yesterday. I'm sorry for all of this. I'm surrening surrendering through a. sheriff friend in a few moments. Thanks.

for all the good times and laughs. You've all been so amazing. Thank you. all for everything." The next day, a. friend writes, "Hey everyone, if you. have not seen the news yet, Tyler's post. above is true. He was taken into custody. earlier today for the shooting of. Charlie Kirk. Regardless of the horrible. actions that took place, we must take. this moment to remember that God is a. living and loving God who loves all his. children. God calls sinners to be his. saints. And I ask that you all take a. quiet moment to pray for Tyler and his.

repentance. While Charlie Kirk's. politics were not acceptable to some, I. ask that we all say a prayer for him and. his family during these confusing times. Love you all. God bless. And of course, the FBI has alleged that. Tyler Robinson did turn himself in. through the help of a family friend who. was a retired deputy sheriff. The FBI. has said that Twigs is being treated as. a significant and essential witness and.

that he is not a suspect. And that's. certainly going to be center stage. moments from now as he speaks out in. this much objected to courtroom video. over which they continue to haggle. Now. 24 minutes after the hour, um Erica Kirk's lawyers, they represent. the family, not just Erica. Charlie's. parents too and his sister presumably. are up and down on their feet.

throughout this morning's proceedings. trying to convince this judge to see. reason. He is too soft. He's too. indecisive. He is too indulgent. That's my take on it. We're going to. bring in our panel and talk about Lance. Twigs and this testimony. And as soon as. they begin playing the audio, we will. take it live. Uh, we begin with Mark. Garagos and Matt Murphy, the hosts of In. the Well, which you can find at MK True. Crime. That's a podcast that you should.

Google, but it's just our MK True Crime. channel in which we [music] have lots of. great legal podcasts following big legal. news of the day, including, of course, this case. Don't miss a moment. Subscribe to this. show on YouTube and follow me on Insta, Facebook, and X. When you sign your. insurance policy, for some brokers, that's the finish line. handshake. They. get their commission and then they're. kind of done with you. You may not hear. from them again until it's time for a. renewal, in which case once again. they're your best friend. That's. annoying. But your business runs all.

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translates your current policy into. plain English so you see what's covered. and what's not. Plus, a business value. calculator so that you can estimate what. your business is worth and know what. actually needs protecting. Go to. supersure.com/megan. One super agency, one powerful platform. All your policies in one place. Superersure.com/megan. Paid for by Supershure Insurance Agency. LLC, a licensed insurance agency. So, Matt Murphy, what do you make of the.

well, the profile that emerges from that. lengthy report and also what we're about. to hear in court and the non-stop. haggling by Judge Ido. Sorry, Garagos. Go ahead, Matt. >> Well, I I see this kind of in the long. in the long form, Megan. Um I always. appreciated careful judges, and I'm. going to go a little against the grain. here. Um. this is there's a famous quote. Um it.

was a Supreme Court justice. I don't. remember his name, but somebody said, "It seems like all you do in the Supreme. Court is you split hairs." And he said, "Yeah, that's what we do. We split. hairs. We distinguish the. indistinguishable and we chop logic and. that's what we do. These rulings are are. all about the long game. Every single. one of these things is going to go up. and receive the highest level of. appellet scrutiny. And again, this is. just a preliminary hearing. It's I I if. if I had a nickel for every time I've. seen Charlie Kirk trial um on on the.

internet right now, this is just a. prelim. It's it's it's all it is is a. determination of probable cause. And. this judge is trying to be careful and. he's he's indulging the defense because. um this is an easy way to go through and. kind of throw the defense some bones. that won't have any impact on the. long-term um proceedings. And this is uh. these are all these are all cheap. gimmies to the defense as far as I'm.

concerned. So I think he's being very. careful. I was surprised to learn that. he hasn't been on the bench that long, but I I think he's doing a pretty good. job. I wasn't. >> um. >> I He's too indulgent. A more seasoned. judge would say noted, overruled, moved. on and move on. Like every single. objection and this defense lawyer. objects to everything. >> Yeah. So everything. >> So. >> I mean I was commenting on this the. other day and he he wants to hear. argument on everything to the point. where the defense lawyer has no. argument. She repeatedly she's had to.

say uh I stand on my earlier argument. She she can't she has nothing to add. She's just trying to slow it up. And. meanwhile, Erica Kirk has no rights in. there. No rights notwithstanding the. Utah law. It's very aggravating that she. and his parents can't even see the. evidence that's being shown that I'm not. talking about the stuff that gets. redacted because they've decided it's. too prejuditial to, you know, be. considered for the prelim. The stuff. that is being admitted but not shown to. the media. She's being treated like.

media. She's not media. She's the. victim. the parents are the victims. Why. don't they get to see it? >> So, this is uh this is what's known as. Marcy's law. Uh Megan, so California has. the same thing. And and Mark, did you. know that it's the same amendment to the. to the Utah Constitution? It's article. 1, section 28, which I don't know how. that works statutoily, but it's. literally the exact same statute with. the exact same numbers. Megan, so I do. Marcy's law representation on behalf of. victims, particularly in sexual assault. case. So, I'm really familiar with this. Um and you're right, it is uh and their.

comments it the about it being. toothless. It is what is known as a. right without a remedy. Victims have. rights. Um it's recognized, but the. person the only people that can appeal. it are the defense. So once again, the. court has to be really careful about. that. Um because every single one of. these things is going to go up and the. the Utah Supreme Court has already. weighed in and this is all going to run. through the 10th Circuit. What the judge. is doing, I think, is he is ensuring. that this thing withstands he he he.

knows how strong the evidence is. He's. going to bind him over. He's going to go. to trial. He's going to be found guilty. and he's going to be sentenced to death. And that's what this is all about. It's. so the case doesn't come back and he. doesn't have to put the family through. it again. Like my Rodney Alcala case, we. had to try that three times and the. victim's family had to go through it. three times, which is devastating for. for a family. I would caution doing. Marcy's Law work myself. I would caution. their Marcy's Law attorneys. Like, you.

don't you you want to speak up for the. victims. You want to make sure their. voices are heard, but you don't want to. actually interfere with the process and. force the judge into making a ruling. that's going to get the case dismissed. The time for the defense. >> showing Erica Kirk the exhibits and Mr. and Mrs. Kirk the exhibits is not going. to get this case over. That's. ridiculous. I agree. It's not going to. There's no reason to exclude them from. to treat them like press. They're not. press. Here's to forget my word. First. of all, and the other thing I've just. got to say, it's it's it's a bone of.

contention. The judge continues to call. her Miss Kirk. She is not Miss Kirk. She. is Mrs. Kirk. She was very notably. married to Charlie Kirk. That's why. she's there. She's the mother of his. children. She's his widow. Show some. respect. Get it right. Yes. It's the. same way judges should learn how to like. in in Idaho how the judge still couldn't. pronounce, you know, Madison Mogan's. name and Xan Kernodal, right? All the. way up to the end of it's like learn the. the names of the victims and their.

survivors if you're going to say them as. the judge. She's not a miss. He's not. even saying miz. Half the time he's. saying miss. It's it's annoying. And. most women who take their husband's name. or even just become married. >> I'm fine when people call me Mrs. Brun. even though I I didn't take Doug's last. name. you, the misses, is an honorarium. that is meaningful to you. Yes, it it's. an honor to your husband and to the. union that you and especially in these. circumstances. I know he's not doing it. intentionally. >> He's just he's on my last nerve. Mark, I. want to bring you Let me finish that.

thought. >> No, no, it's Mark's turn, but listen, I. I've got to play for you. Um Erica's and. the Kirk's family lawyer. Okay, this is. him arguing. He's fired up this morning. Take a listen. And we appreciate the. court is trying to balance here, but the. Kirk family has waited 10 months for. this hearing. And they have a right to be here and. they have a right to hear the evidence. They have a right to see and feel what's. going on in this courtroom just like. they want to understand, judge, what you. are what you are viewing. They want to.

see the evidence. And we understand you have to balance. But at a minimum, this courtroom needs. to be open for the for for the evidence. to be displayed openly in this courtroom. for them to see it. The Utah. Constitution gives them the right to be. here and to be here and not to see the. evidence. What's the point of being. here? We ask you to let the evidence be seen. in the courtroom, please. Thank you for. your time. >> Thank you, Council.

>> Okay, Mark Aragos, go ahead. You've been. so patient. This may have been the most. frustrating 30 minutes sitting here. listening to this. And you know, you. know I love you. You know I adore you. And you know I've known you forever. >> Let me have it. It's fine. >> Yes. But you are so wrong on so many. counts. And at least Matt, who is the. consumate gentleman, you know now why I. always hated going up against him. I. loved him as a person, but he's he's. lethal when you go up against him. He I.

he articulated exactly what this judge. is doing contrary to the. characterization that this is. By the. way, I think Lancedo um before the OJ. case was one of if he was on the short. list to be in the California Supreme. Court. He was one of the most wellres. judges. I know that he got caricatured. by OJ, but Lanc he ran. >> you're just completely undermining your. credibility before you launch into your. diet. I think nobody has ever done a.

fullthroated defense of who he was when. before he did that trial. And this. judge, by the way, to Matt's point, there's no way you watch this judge and. you think he's new on the bench. He's. doing exactly what. >> Yes, there is a way because I watched. him and I said, "This guy's new on the. bench. He doesn't have the confidence.". And my team checked and he's been on the. bench since May. And I was right. There. is a way. It happened this morning. come. to this case through the even though. you're not a former prosecutor, you look. at this as kind of the rabid.

prosecutorial viewpoint and that is not. the p the prison. >> not not true. Not in this case. I'll. tell you why you you're normally right. about me. 100% you're right and my all. my instincts are more. prosecutionoriented. However, in this. case, my friend was killed. In this. case, I know the murder victim and what. I really want is for the right person to. go to prison. And so I I think Tyler. Robinson is the trigger man. No. question. But I I am not closed-minded. to his defense. I'm not. I actually like. because it's more what's most important.

to me here is getting it right. >> Well, so look, you both those things can. be right. He can be the trigger man. Number one. Number two, this judge to. Matt's point. If this judge does not do. what he's doing, you do not understand. the legal colonoscopy that a death. penalty conviction gets. When Matt talks. about the 10th circuit, you know what. he's doing? He's damning with faint. praise the Ninth Circuit because he's. been on the receiving end of the decades.

of law. Decades of law at the ninth and. the IA. >> No, I know the ninth is ridiculous, but. it has gotten better. I have to say, we. did a deep dive on this last year. Trump. got a bunch of judges on that Ninth. Circuit Court of Appeals, and it's not. nearly as bad as it used to be, but. they're all generally not so great. They're they're all generally stacked. with libs. But what you have to the. stack of libs is the look I I'm old. enough to remember when the liberals. were the ones who challenged authority. as opposed to wanted totalitarian.

authority. So that's that's kind of a an. ironic situation, but the fact is this. judge has to do what he's doing. He's. doing it very very adroitly. And Matt's. point also, and I found this out kind of. ironically during Menendez last year, Marcy's law, which is the victim's. right, which is a constitutional right, is a right without a remedy. And when I. say in the Menendez case, it was on full.

display. I have argued for years that. the victims are a proxy for the. prosecution. That when they when they. support what the prosecution wants, they. they the victims are right there front. and center. When they don't support what. the prosecution wants, they're kind of. dismissed. But there is no real. enforcement mechanism for victims. It's. a right that's enshrined. And Matt, I. did not know it's both article one, section 28 in both constitutions. I it's.

amazing kind of coincidence, but there. is. everything that lawyer is saying for. Erica Kirk is true to some extent, but. it's not really accurate. When he says. she's got a right to see all these. things, the prosecution is not limited. in what they can show or share with her. So yes, the courtroom is limited. Yes, the public is limited. That is so they. don't have a challenge later on to a.

tainted jury pool because all judges. usually kick the can down the road and. say, "I'll solve that pre pre-trial. publicity or prejudice in jury. selection." But if you've got a jury. selection and a jury pool that is. completely tainted by all of the stuff. that is now inadmissible, you just make. your job in infinitely harder. So that. he's doing the right thing to your point. about Tyler Robinson. Yes, there is. probable cause right now to have Tyler.

Robinson held to answer, which means. bound over for trial. But I will tell. you something else. I I'm I'd love to. hear Matt's thoughts. I think right now. you could clearly get uh Mr. Twigs or. whatever his name is also held to answer. for trial as a codefendant. There is. more than enough probable cause that's. been developed so far on Twigs. This. idea that he's a subject and not a. co-conspirator is nonsense. He'd be held.

to answer 99 times out of 99 in almost. every preliminary hearing court that. I've ever been in. >> I agree with you on Twigs 100%. But. they've given him use immunity. I'm sure. Matt has a lot of thoughts on this. exchange and and wants to get in still. on my miss versus misses. I know. But um. >> yeah. >> Well, why don't you do that and then. I'll ask you about use immunity and why. Lance Twig's not being charged. >> Is that to me? >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, number one, um what Mark was.

saying, just to just to pick up on that, the time to sit down with Erica Kirk and. the lawyers is in the prosecutor's. office and to show her everything. So, the argument that she's not receiving. all the information is a completely. different one than what the public. should see. And again, Mark's exactly. right. That is so they avoid the. challenge long-term of the jury pool was. tainted because we saw that. We saw that. in Coberger, right? The jury pool has. been tainted and they had to do a change. of venue there. There's all kinds of. problems that ensue from that. The place. and I've worked with victims, Megan.

Every murder case I did, I sat down with. the victim's family. I gave my personal. cell number. I did that for 21 years. Okay? So, I am I am provictim victim. oriented. I represent victims now. But. the place for that is in the. prosecutor's office, not in not in a. courtroom if it's going to create issues. because nothing is worse than a case. coming back. I think the misses versus. miss of course that's a he's. misspeaking. That's you know I I I can't. take issue with that. You're right. He. should he should clean it up. But um.

look, this is this is about the long. game and in Utah he's actually looking. at the death penalty and you want to be. careful. There's a crass uh joke that. that I'm sure we've all heard about the. two bulls standing on the hill and it's. probably inappropriate for me to share. it, but it's like there's a young bull. and an old bull and there's a whole. bunch of cows down in the in the pasture. and the old bull um and the young bull. says to the old bull, "Let's run down. there and have sex with one of those. cows." And the old bull says, "I got a. better idea. Let's walk down there and.

have sex with all of those cows." That's. how in a in a very crass way you have to. look at death penalty cases. It's step. by step. You have to be super careful. and super methodical because if you base. one single call on on emotion. And look, Megan, I'm with you on this. I've had. friends who were murdered. I've had two. friends, actually three that were. murdered, but a good friend of mine got. murdered in law school. And that's you. We cannot base decisions ever on the. emotions of the moment. You have to look. at it long term. Long term is you have.

to go very carefully, step by step. And. and look what the defense is doing here. I'm I'm seeing something completely. different. Um there's the frustration of. watching the antics. And one of the. reasons why my friend Mark Urgos is so. deadly in front of a jury is juries like. him. These the personalities of these. lawyers is not going to annoying. >> What's that? >> It's a lot. >> He's so likable. It's annoying. >> No, I know. I listen, you have no idea. what it's like going up against him. It's terrible because everybody likes.

the guy. So So but but you look at this. We watched this during the We watched. this during the um the uh the Corey. Richens case, right? That woman, it's. the same defense lawyer. She got up and. and and tactically, you know, they're. doing they're going through the motions. As annoying as it is as a prosecutor, I. love seeing that because their. personalities and this the they're it's. called Keenan Counsel, the other lawyer. that's making a lot of these objections, he just kind of it's like nails on a. chalkboard listening to him talk. He. aggravates the hell out of me. And as a.

as a viewer, I I you know, I want to. throw throw peanuts at my screen. As a. as a prosecutor, you love to see that. because when you have somebody that. stands up and makes obnoxious, obstreporous, pedantic arguments every. 30 seconds, a jury is going to hate that. and they will have zero credibility when. they get into the penalty phase. And. that is the best thing for Erica Kirk. and everybody who is friends with. Charlie Kirk. >> Matt is Matt is so spot on. I have had. cases where the prosecutor or if it's a.

civil case where you're fighting over. other people's money, the other person. has zero jury appeal and they don't. understand it. They just don't. understand how repulsive they are. Repulsive in the sense that repel people. against them. A jurors. what happens in a trial as opposed to a. preliminary hearing. In a trial, you're. each side is the voice. Matt is up there. giving voice to some the normally.

because we we did so many cases that. where there were dead bodies literally. well people who have no voice I'm giving. voice hopefully to somebody who never is. going to take the stand and so you. become the proxy if as the proxy. somebody doesn't [clears throat] want to. help you in the jury the last thing. you're going to want to do and I tell. this to my new lawyers Why would you. antagonize the jurors? Why? I can.

understand actually antagonizing the. judge sometime if the judge is not. likable. Matt and I have always. commented on that when we're in a. courtroom where the jurors don't like. the judge or the judge is g issuing. OSC's on jurors because they're five. minutes late and the jurors want to. revolt. At that point, I almost. purposefully will antagonize the judge. But absent that, that's your audience. You got 12 people here. Your audience is. the public. You don't care. Um I have.

not had the pleasure of watching any of. these lawyers in trial, but I push back. on the objecting at a prelim. I at a. prelim I think all all bets are off when. you're on the defense. You should be. pushing. You should be going after the. witnesses. You should be objecting. You. should be testing everything out. It's. the only way as a defense lawyer that. you can refine. It's a wonderful kind of. a test run. >> Okay, I got it. I got it. I mean, I I. disagree and I disagree that the judge.

has to indulge all of this and you know, you can sort of be you can blank it. Got. it. You blanket objections unduly. prejuditial on the statement. She's made. it 25 times. We have to go through it. each and every time each whatever. Okay, fine. But but let's talk about Lance. Twigs because you know if you hear it's. it's a very that Turkey tom report which. we've been looking into for the better. part of six months on our team like. running it by the FBI like we we've. actually done a deep dive on that report.

and it it hasn't fallen apart. It's been. repeated by some others. It hasn't gone. far and wide because the the original. source behind it refuses to come forward. and identify him or herself. Um, but it. does paint a picture, Matt. I mean, literally with pictures of their alleged. apartment of like a dark, destructive, sick home in which. Tyler Robinson for at least some large. portion of the the the final year was.

okay, was like holding it together while. this roommate was on a trans spiral into. the depths of inhumity. And it does make you wonder what. happened. And but it also makes me much. more inclined to believe. He probably. did know more than he's letting on. And. now we've heard his DNA is on the towel. that was used to wrap the gun. Okay.

It's from their home. Maybe he just. touched the towel. I get it. Also, the. screwdriver that they found on the roof. that the prosecution says was used to. assemble the gun by Tyler Robinson. I. mean, maybe he touched the screwdriver. and making all his crazy crazy. concoctions on that table. I don't know. But he also was the one corresponding. with Tyler in those text messages that. sound somewhat manufactured. It was not. you, was it, Tyler? It was I, my love. I'm overdoing it, but you This is why a.

lot of people think that it's a Fed. behind this whole thing or it's some. it's a country or somebody's. manufacturing these, whereas it could be. a real or b the two of them doing this. little cosplaying act to keep Lance. Twigs out of the Fed's crosshairs when. Tyler knew he'd either be dead or. arrested, as his own note says. Anyway, what do you make of it all? >> Well, the description of the house. reminded me of the place I lived in in. law school. Uh but uh look, there's an. old an old adage, crimes in hell don't.

have angels as witnesses. Okay? And we. see this all the time when you get a a. gang case like the your witnesses are. often little gangsters or if you have a. crime in jail, you always have criminals. that are your witnesses. The question is. um is he telling the truth? And and the. other thing is I the way I see it and. I'd love Mark's thoughts on this. I. think all they have to do with Lance. Twigs is lay the foundation, right, Mark? the you got a note written by by. Tyler Robinson which is incriminating as. hell. The one found under the computer. keyboard um and and the text messages.

All he all they really need him for is. to talk about that. I'm curious to see. what else he said. But there's a there's. also a love affair here and they've this. goes to motive by Tyler Robinson that. he's somehow you know defending the. honor of his love which is how he refers. to to Lance Twigs. So, um, you know, the. furry world is weird. Um, the idea that. Lance is weird kind of fits perfectly in. my mind that this is going to be Tyler.

Robinson's gone off the deep end. He's. decided that he's going to embrace the. trans community and um, and whatever. Uh, but then going and committing a. murder, you know, as a result of it, it. all kind of it fits in a way. Um, so. that's my take on this. >> Does it mean that Lance is getting use. immunity, Matt? Instead of getting. charged as a he getting use immunity, >> he has to, Megan. They have to give him. use. And especially, I think, when they. go through that. >> Yeah. So, there's two kinds of immunity. There's there's immunity immunity or.

what's known as transactional immunity. That's like, you know, you confessed. everything you did and you you received. complete legal absolution. Those are. actually very rare. I only did that. twice in my entire career. The other is. what's known as use immunity. That's. also known in the federal federal world. as queen for a day where you sit down. and they immunize you against the. statements that you make in that. interview and the derivative of that. But if independent evidence arises. outside of your interview or what they. learn or are able to glean from it and.

in further investigation, anything else. separate, they can still prosecute you. for that. So, in other words, you're. you're given uh sort of cart blanch to. to talk about what happened and then. they agree not to prosecute you based on. those sentences or those statements, if. that makes sense. So, that's the common. way it's it's done and they they have to. do that. Otherwise, he he would have a. fifth amendment right against testifying. when the trial comes around or even at. at the prelim. Um. >> if he didn't have it, he'd expose.

himself fedally. >> That's right. >> He has to do it. He's gonna he's he has. a right to counsel. They have to. immunize him so that he can so that he. can participate in the. >> Do they have a right to cross-examine. Matt? >> Yes. >> Um ultimately they certainly do, but but. you you hit the nail on the head on that. one, Megan. Um the there is no there's. no right to cross-examine somebody at a. preliminary hearing. Hearsay is. admissible in in Utah just like it is in. California. That's been appealed to the. eenth. That's gone to the US Supreme. Court. It's okay.

>> Why are you saying otherwise, Mark? Because in California, as Matt will tell. you, when you do a hearsay prelim, we. call it a 115 prelim that was based on. the proposition, the only way the. California Supreme Court said that that. still withtood constitutional scrutiny. is there had to be a corresponding. section, which there is in California. called 866, which allows the defense to. make a profer to say, I want to either. cross-examine the the declarant, the. hearsay declarant, and here's why.

because there's exculpatory evidence. that I can show on cross-examination or. I want to call. >> Well, we're not in California anymore. >> Yeah, but I got to go federal. >> I got to go cuz we're 20 seconds to the. heartbreak. Are we coming back with. these guys, Steve? >> Yes, we are. We're holding over. So, I'll let you finish that on the opposite. side of this break and hopefully we'll. go to the Lance Twigs testimony as well. We'll [music] be right back. Don't go. away. Hey, thanks for watching today's full.

episode. If you're new here, throw us a. subscribe. See what you think. Stay in. touch. There's plenty more goodness. where this one came from. As always, we. really do value your feedback, so email. me, too. Megan megnancell.com. or just leave a comment down below. I do. read them. I meander over and I scroll. through and I find them very. entertaining and really appreciate the. feedback. But in any event, join the. community by becoming a subscriber so. you miss nothing. We value your support. We may not always agree on positions, but as you know, I'm very open-minded to.

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podcast button on your phone or check it. out on YouTube.com. Mark Geragos and. Matt Murphy, two lawyers, criminal. lawyers of lifetime experience who know. what they are talking about. Guys, they're still in a break now. And what. we've been told is that now the. prosecution, this is like never ending. Now, the prosecution has agreed to show. the video in its redacted final form to. defense council, which is what's. happening right now behind closed doors,

incorporating all the only the lines. that have been agreed upon, and then. they'll show it to us. Um, well, no, I. mean, they'll play it for us. We'll be. able to hear audio only, which again. makes no sense. whether why don't we get. to see the audio or the video? It's. stupid. Like there what constitutional. right is violated by me laying eyes on. Lance Twigs? Then if he's holding. exhibits, don't show the exhibits. Why. is this so hard? Everything's got It's.

like here's part of the problem. And I. realize like we shouldn't be having this. preliminary hearing for people who have. their own theories about what happened. here. But the reality is it actually. like. I think it's good for posterity. I don't. think you ever convince a conspiracy. theorist not to believe his or her. conspiracy. You just don't. I've dealt. with enough of them over the course of. my life. They never they never come out. of it ever. No matter what you put up in. front we literally could have Tyler.

Robinson on camera saying I did it. I. did it alone. I did it because there was. too much hate. I did go confess to my. parents and then they called the deputy. and I turned myself in. And the people. would still say it's a lie. It's just. I've had so many of these over my 24. years in news that I know this to be. true. But just for posterity sake, I. think it's valuable to have. the the video and the audio of the guy. saying he confessed to me. Just the mere.

fact that he's not going to be on camera. is gonna set a lot of people off like. was he at a gunpoint, you know, like how. was he really giving this voluntarily? It's like these are just games. They're. they're games that were playing because. of the defense's every objection and it. it leads to a frustratingly incomplete. record. I get it for now, but who the. hell knows when the child's going to be. Matt Murphy? So, this is what's going to. be out there for months and months and. months on end.

>> Yeah. So, uh, going back to the judge. for a second, Megan, Mark and I were. talking, uh, off camera a second ago. One of the things. >> Did you Did you soften to my position? >> No. Um, but I want but I want I want to. say something in the hopes of making you. feel a little better. Um, >> okay. >> One of the things that you see often. times is when you see defense lawyers. engaged in this that they're going. through the process, but this is a long. it's a long process, right? And we're. going to get into a trial that's going. to be a lot longer than this prelim. And.

the the defense objecting like this and. challenging the court on everything. eventually wears down on every judicial. officer, which means he's they're going. to get on his last nerve at a certain. point. I predict probably halfway. through the trial. And the jury will see. that. And even though the juryy's not. supposed to take the cue from the judge, they always do. And this is going to if. if this continues. Look, it's going to. continue because we we saw this in the. Cory Richens trial with the same lawyer. and that the guy that she's got up there. right now is he he has half the.

personality that she does and she is um. she was not exactly sparkling in front. of that other Utah jury. So, this is, believe it or not, it's frustrating now. This is good long term because this is. the type of stuff that that really will. have an impact at the end. this kind of. object to everything, nails on a. chalkboard, slow everything down. It's. going to get worse in front of the jury. The jury's going to hate it and then. there there's going to be no credibility. left when they stand up and say, "Don't.

execute my client.". >> And by the way, >> and especially at the trial, Garagos, the if we believe the prosecutor, Lance. Twigs is going to show up in person and. be sitting in the witness box. And this. business of like that one line needs to. come out and no one can see him and he. can't be confronted with exhibits. That's all out the window. We are going. to hear from Lance Twigs if he is. willing to show up there and he'll get. cross-examined. But that testimony is. coming out at some point.

>> Yeah. But you have you've answered kind. of your question by that by saying it. It doesn't need to come out and it. shouldn't come out now because you've. got you're not you don't want to if. you're a judge have to change venue. You. don't want to pollute your jury. >> But Mark, what's the typical rule? Well, like in a typical case, wouldn't the preliminary hearing be. completely on the public record on the. record and everything accessible by the. public, >> right? And in a typical case, we're not.

going to be covering it breathlessly on. a podcast. In a typical case, the it's. not going to be covered to this degree. It's not going to be what's called what. I always call a superersized. >> There were breaths. There were breaths. It was not breathless. >> Okay, [laughter]. everyone here, >> the one the one thing the one thing I. was going to say is is during the break, Matt and I agreed uh that we would give. this judge a A+ marks. He is doing a. spectacular job and a very difficult.

job. You can put your head in your. hands, but it he's doing what he needs. to do. You can't I know people want. there's this kind of short attention. span or this immediate gratification. He's not looking at that. To Matt's. point, the bull joke. Uh he's got more. guts than I do. I wouldn't have told. that joke. Um, the bull joke having sex with every. cow is basically what you have to do in. a case like this because it's capital.

litigation. It's just no way around it. I Matt and I were talking on the break. Some of the things he's been hoisted on. and I've been hoisted on in murder. cases. You It would blow your mind. We. could tell you stories, both of us. you. you just can't do what what you kind of. reflexively want to do, which is just. mow through this to get to the. conviction. It doesn't work. >> I had an old boss, Megan. >> I got it. >> Um who taught me [clears throat] how to.

do capital case litigation, which is. death penalty cases, which is very, very. specialized. And he and the old saying. is death is different. And he used to. say, his name is Brian Brown. He's a. legend. I know Mark knows him well. Um. he he said, "Give them everything they. want." referring to the defense. Give. them everything they want until it's. something you really need. Okay? And. that's a that's a good way of looking at. it because like Mark just said, the. things that you get reversed for can be. so innocuous. Um, and you just don't. want to put the family through it again.

You want to maximize the chances of this. being withheld on appeal, being upheld. on appeal, and so you never have to do. it again. And you let the the poor Kirk. family put this behind them to the to. the greatest extent possible. Another. thing they're dealing with is they're. dealing with all of these insane. conspiracy theories that are out there. And I think that's why we're seeing such. a detailed preliminary hearing. Mark on. a regular murder case without a without. a capital case component to this, without a death penalty lingering out. there. Um this is a one-day prelim. You.

put on the the rifle, you do the DNA. >> It's two hours. >> Yeah. Yeah. Literally two hours. Um and. and they're doing this. I think it it's. interesting because there's such there's. been so much public discourse. I've seen. some insane things on the internet. mostly championed by Candace Owens um. that are it is so. loony tinfoil hat out there and I think. that's hard on the on the victim's. family. So I I I also want to commend.

the prosecution for going through this. even though it's 5 days um because it. really does change the public discourse. on it. We're about to separate those. that are open-minded to other defense. theories from the actual lunatics. It's. like the the pros with Brian Cobber, right? All the the looney theories. >> Megan is you are right. It's the the. reason this is five days and I know Phil. Holloway he loses his mind over this. But the reason is five days clearly is. they're trying to quell some of the kind.

of rumors or conspiracy theorists. But. your point is the most astute when it. comes to that. Nothing is going to. dispel that. You put something on all. that does is feed it and amplify it. And. so that's no good. It's basically the. prosecutorial version of no good deed. goes unpunished. It's all it does is. harm that stuff. >> I mean, I don't agree with Candace's. theory of this case, but I have to say I. I genuinely believe she was traumatized. by watching her friend die. I I can.

relate to it. And um I think she's in. earnest and and I think she she. distrusts authority. I don't agree with. her again, Matt, but I just like and I. know people have very strong feelings. about her. I just I think she's in her. own search for what she believes. happened here and she has zero trust in. official words on anything. >> Zero. >> I'm not quite that cynical. >> She's making it harder for Erica Kirk. and the entire Kirk family. She's also. making things harder on the prosecution.

And I and look, I I don't know her. I've. never appeared in front of her. I got. nothing against her. I got no axe to. grind. But she's she is making things. harder for the good guys on this. and. Erica Kirk asked her to to stop with the. stuff and she said she would and then. Erica Kirk asked her I think twice and. she's continued she's she's quadrupled. down on it and um she sounds insane to. me and again I don't know her I I would. I would debate her any time on on some. of this stuff because it's insane like.

Israel didn't kill Charlie Kirk sorry. they just didn't this is this is this is. a murder case it's a death penalty case. this is what they look like this is what. killers sound like. This is this is how. these things actually occur in reality. You got a guy who's in love with a trans. guy who decides he's going to kill. somebody because some somehow that would. help him. That's America today. That's. that's that's that is um I mean Charlie. Kirk himself, I don't know, I'm sure. you've seen the post. Um assassination. culture, you know, and and and Tyler.

Robinson proved him right. It's like, "Hey buddy, you killed the guy and you. proved him right at the same time." It's. like, all right, Matt, I if we're going. to go down this lane, then we can go. down this lane because it was Andrew. Kovette of Turning Point who turned over. to the FBI Charlie's criticisms of his. Jewish donors and his threats to leave. the pro-Israel cause right before he was. murdered. That was turning point. And I. love Andrew Kovette. And he did that. because he's an honest guy. And he said,

you know what? They should investigate. everything. They should investigate who. else had an axe to grind with Charlie. and who else might be be motivated. He's. not some conspiracy theorist. Like why? I was told this myself and it's been now. been reported by her and others that. there were at least 11 there's a. difference in 11 versus 14 Israelon cell. phones on the campus of UVU that day. Like not from from Israeli citizens. In. other words, open accounts opened in. Israel. And the NSA knew that.

within two minutes because they lock. those scenes down and they can tell you. exactly what cell phones were on scene. Um I I don't say that means Israel. killed Charlie, but it's one of the. reasons why both of these are reasons. why all along I've said we should we. should be you should not be saying to. her or anybody else you're not allowed. to ask that question. You are allowed to. ask questions that it is smart to say. who else had a motive. And when it comes. to these lone gunman assassinations, you.

know, Butler and now this, people always. ask, was he put up to it? You know, is. there some nefarious government source? Some people could believe in the CIA and. MK Ultra. Some people believe the CIA. actually killed like JFK. You know, you. you've heard them all. >> Sure. >> And I I'm like you. My instincts are as. lawyers, I think the three of us are. much more evidence-based. Okay, great. you have a theory. Show me. the evidence and persuade me with. something that's admissible in a court. of law that I can argue with. But I.

>> that's where we are. But not everybody's. like we are. And it doesn't necessarily. make them a nutcase to not trust the. official government narrative. >> Well, what about just I I didn't get. Matt. Maybe I'll save it for in the. well, but I wanted Matt's reaction. What? You don't think there's enough to. have in to have charged Lance Twigs in. this case? I think that you really need to show. that there was some sort of um something.

beforehand or or even after where he's. helping. Um you you need the the DNA is. not enough for me. And and you know, Mark, I've done conspiracy cases where. people have been yelling at me why I. haven't included people. Sometimes I've. included people that I I heard the exact. opposite. You know, how come how come. that person's involved? And it just. going along with what Megan just said, it's I I I follow the evidence and I. call it as I see it. And the the DNA. means nothing. Uh you always get you. always. >> I agree. I've got I can't tell you the.

number of murder cases that I've had. discourse. >> especially with with the increase. What. Mark then what do you like to indict. Lance with? I I think that Lance if uh. on the before and if you read the the. actually I was going to say you're the. one who put the idea in my head with. some of the things that you had talked. about five days before 4 days before and. then the text that referenced knowledge. by him by Lance prior to this. If I'm.

the defense, I'm all over that because. there is something more to this. This. idea of this of Tyler Robinson doing. this alone. So far, based on everything. I've seen, I would be all over that. When Matt says the DNA alone, he's. right. I have defended. That's not to. say I have defended murder cases where. guys got held to answer cuz I can think. of one where his fingerprint was on a. mattress frame where the the stabbing. took place. We got it dismissed, but.

that was enough to get you past prelim. Now, you've got DNA on several items. that were essential. Uh. >> uh let me pause you, Mark. I just We're. Let's check in with what's happening in. the court because Agent Davis just took. the stand and this is who they're going. to get the video in through. So, let's. listen, see if they're doing it. Finally, >> this meeting. is uh to use your statement here instead. of your testimony at a preliminary. hearing. Understand that? >> Mhm. >> Okay. So, um. >> here we go. In order to do that to do.

that, I need to place you under oath and. also give you a an admonition about. false statements. Okay. First, uh you do. solemnly swear or affirm that the. evidence you shall give in this issue. shall be the truth, the whole truth, and. nothing but the truth. So, help you God. >> Yes. Um, I also need to notify you that you. are notified that statements you are. about to make may be presented at to a. magistrate or a judge in lie of your. sworn testimony at a preliminary. examination. Any false statement you.

make and that you do not believe to be. true may be sub may subject you to. criminal punishment as a class A. misdemeanor. You understand that? >> Yes. >> It potentially could be used as uh for. punishment as a higher offense as. obstruction of justice. Um, in addition, I just want to make sure. that our recording here is clear that uh. you've also been given um uh a federal. agreement and a state agreement granting.

you immunity from prosecution for. materials that you discuss now. Do you. understand that? >> Mhm. >> Okay. Um, first, uh, we're going to cover some. of the things that we've already talked. about, but to make it, um, as part of. this record, um, first, what's your name? >> Full name with middle name or just first. and last? >> First and last is fine. >> Okay. My name is Lance Twix. >> And do you know Tyler Robinson? >> Yes, I do. Or Yeah, I do. >> And this is the same Tyler Robinson.

that's been charged with the shooting of. Charlie Kirk? >> Yes. And would you say when you first. met uh Tyler? >> I think it was 2023. I've known him. longer than that though. That was I. think the first time I met him in. person. >> Okay. Um. and will you describe your relationship. with with Tyler. >> uh when you first met him anyway? >> Um when I first met him I didn't know.

him super well. He was just a new. roommate. So, I knew he knew my friend group and I. knew he liked playing games, but that. that's about it when we first uh like. when he first moved. >> Okay. >> Um before we go on, I realized my mic. was at the. microphone. >> Okay. I'm going to repeat those. admonitions just to make sure we got. >> Okay. So, um again, I placed you under.

oath. Um um just to make a record, I'm. going to do it again. You do solemnly. swear that the evidence you shall give. in this issue shall be the truth, the. whole truth, and nothing but the truth. shall be. >> Yes. And again, I'm giving going to give. you the false uh statement. >> Sorry, hold on. I'm um. they're saying that it's echoing. So I. >> I think this one might be on. >> Okay. Sorry. >> Okay. You don't need my mic. That's. fine. >> Okay. >> Okay. So, we should be good. All right.

Is that mic on? >> Yes. >> Okay, great. >> All right. Um, okay. Sorry about that. interruption. All right. So, you said. when you first met met you were. roommates. >> Uh, yeah. >> Okay. And then, um, at some point, uh, your relationship progressed to. something more than just roommates. Is. that right? >> Mhm. >> When was that? Um, I think we started. dating 2 or 3 months after he moved in.

>> Okay. And where did you live at that. time? >> St. George. Uh, in an apartment complex. >> And is that apartment the same place you. lived uh when on September 10th? >> Yes. >> Um, when you lived there uh with Tyler, were. you in the same room? Did you live in. the same room or different rooms? >> Uh, separate rooms. And at that time, let's say September of. 2025,

um what was what were you doing with. your life? Were you working, school? >> Uh I was working. Um I was doing like. bathtub and shower repair and stuff in. new construction. >> Okay. How about Tyler? Um, I think he. was both working I think he was working. for an electric like an electrician. company then and he was also in a trade. school for being a I don't know higher. like ranking electrician. I'm not sure. how the trade system works for that.

>> Okay. >> But I think it was both. >> What was his typical workday like? >> Um, I think he'd leave around 7. generally and get back around 3 to 4. uh depending on like where the job was. and how long it was for the day. And. then on certain days of the week during. school like semesters he would then. later in the day I think around five or. six go to school. So yeah.

>> Okay. Let's jump to September 10th. Um. did he spend spend the night in the. apartment the night of September 9th. into September 10th? >> Into September 10th. Yeah, he did. Yes. >> Do you know when he left the apartment. on September 10th? >> Um, I don't know an exact time. I just. know he left early. Uh, I heard him. leaving and he just said he had a like a. long drive to work that day, so he was. leaving early. >> Yeah. So early. Um, any guess as to what.

um. when that was? >> Uh, I don't know. I would have thought. it was 5:00 a.m. because that's when. like an early work day was for him, but. it was probably more like 4:00. >> Okay. I'm going to have him spit out his gum. just to make sure that. >> I can do that. >> Right in front of your laptop. >> Here you go. >> Thank you.

>> Thank you. All. right. So, what time did you get up on. September 10th? >> Probably like 12 to 100 p.m. >> You didn't have to work that day? >> Uh, no. >> And did you hear from Tyler? Did he call. or text you before then? >> Uh, no. He sent that message in the. group chat I mentioned, but he didn't.

message me directly at all that day. >> Okay. When did you first hear from him? On September 10th. Uh, it was at 11:00 with that like. automated message. Okay. 11 p.m. >> Yeah.

What about. he asks you here remember how I was. engraving bullets? Was he engraving. bullets before this? >> Uh yeah, I don't remember exactly when, but uh he had said he was planning to go. hunting with his family. Um, and he. asked me for a if we had like a Dremel. to because he said he wanted to engrave.

messages on bullets. Um, and I just told him where Dremel was. and I told him to make sure he doesn't. like set off a bullet on accident in the. house. Um, but I didn't really think. about it until then. >> How long before um September 10th was. this that you he asked about the Dremel? I I don't remember cuz he'd been talking. about the uh hunting/camping. trip for a couple months,

but I I don't remember when he was. specifically asking to engrave the. bullets. So. >> So are we talking like a year before? >> Oh, no. Not not that not that long. It. would have been I'd say at most a month. before this was when he was asking. Okay. Okay.

All right. Um, you talked about the note. that he left. Um, I want to bring this. up and I should say that um, these text. messages that we've been looking at here. are um, Bates number 54. Okay. Uh, the notes. have been titled 16.3 with a note. and this is base number 58. Do you. recognize that that on the screen there?

>> Yeah. Yeah. >> What do you recognize it as? >> Um, that was the note under his keyboard. that he was referring to in the first. text of that chain. >> So, where did you find this? un on his. desk underneath his like uh computer. keyboard. >> And. uh what you I assume you read it.

>> Yeah. >> And then what did you do with it after. you read it? >> Um I believe I just put it back down on. the desk after I took a picture of it. >> Okay. And again, the time you read it. was probably around 11:00 or so on the. 10th. >> Yes. >> The night of September 10th. >> Mhm. >> All right. And did you ever see that. again after you placed it back on his. desk? >> Uh, no, I don't think I did. >> And that was a desk in his bedroom? >> Yes. >> And that's a separate bedroom than your.

bedroom. >> Yeah. >> And now I want to go to uh what's been. titled 16.2. two. and do you recognize. this series of messages here? >> Um, yeah, that was the server like his. friend that I was mentioning. >> Okay. And this is your phone again?

>> Uh, yeah. >> And I'm assuming you recognize it. because the big crack up at the top. Mhm. >> And so this is a server. Is this. Discord? >> Yeah, this is Discord. >> And who who are members of this server? I don't want names. Just generally who. are these people members of this? >> This is his friend group. Um they play D. and D together every week. >> Okay. And I just want to scroll through. this to make sure that uh get a chance. to take a look at it.

I go to the next page or. >> Yes. So Tyler Iikum, who's that? >> That's Tyler Robinson. >> These other people are just others that. they're that are members of the server. >> Yes. >> Jug, Barnaby, Marina, DM. >> Mhm. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Like DM means dungeon master. So.

this uh these are like most of them are. names they're using in the in the game. they're playing currently. Got it. >> Yeah. It looks like the last text from. Tyler looks like it's um 8:00 p.m. And. do you know what day this would have. been 8:00 p.m. on the 10th or the 11th?

Uh, I would think that would be the 11th. cuz on at least I think so because I. don't think on the 10th that he messaged. anyone before me at like 11. So, >> and he turned himself in on the 11th, right? >> I thought so. Yeah. Okay. So, again, we're just going to go. through this so that we have a record of. the messages.

Is that an accurate recording of that. thread? >> Uh, to my knowledge, yes. >> And that was sent looks like between. September 10th and September 12th. Looks. like the last day on this is September. 12th screen.

>> Uh, yes. There you go. All right. So again, those messages. covered from September 10th to the. evening of September 11th. Now September.

um 11th. What time did or did you see. on September 11th? >> Uh yes. >> When did you first see him? On September. 11th. So this is the day after the. shoot. >> Yeah, I saw him when I woke up. Um like. I said, he was like up and around doing. a lot of stuff around the house. Um, and then I uh I think I saw him. after that message where I said I'll. come home and say I'm doing laundry cuz.

I didn't want him going to my parents. house right then when he said there was. probably cops outside. So I went back. home and it was just him there and I. said bye to him and then he drove off. So, I just went back to my parents. house.

So, he acted erratically. Um, was he. pacing? Was he just sitting down, relaxing? >> No, he was he was uh walking around a. lot. >> And that's within the home. >> Mhm. >> Um, and did he talk about what he had done?

>> Uh, didn't go into detail. He just I. just asked him in person if what he said. was true the night before and he said it. was. I started crying a little bit and. said he wishes he hadn't done it. and then kept going around and. just doing stuff I think to keep himself. busy or distracted or something. Okay. Could you talk about what he was going. to do next? Uh,

and then eventually said that he would. talk to his parents or turn himself. over. [snorts]. >> Okay. And uh, when you left, was that. how you went you left understanding that. he was going to turn himself in or go to. his parents house? >> Yeah. And I didn't really want to be at. our apartment while any of that was. happening, regardless of what went down. Okay.

Um, okay. Before he came home, had you seen. the press the press releases um any of. the media on on this? >> Uh, I'd seen one. Instagram like link a friend of mine had. sent in our group chat, >> but I hadn't really looked into it at. all. And uh had you seen the images that. were released of the suspect? >> Uh I did the next day. I don't think I.

saw any on the tech. I'm going to show you a couple of those. images. I'm on the FBI's website. Um you can see. the URL there at the top. This is some. press release about this event. Um, and. here on the screen you see these there's. looks like there's two rows of three.

images. >> Mhm. >> Um, do you recognize the person in these. images? >> I wouldn't say with 100% certainty just. because of camera quality, but that. looks like him in terms of the shoes. he's wearing, the sunglasses. I don't think I'd specifically seen him. wearing that hat, but he was usually. wearing a hat. Um, and then jeans. So, it definitely, especially the bottom, the last two definitely do look like.

him. >> Oh, they do look like Tyler Robinson. >> And, uh, you talked about that with your. friends, right? This him. >> Yeah. His his friends. Yeah. I don't um. I don't know if I talked I don't. remember if I talked about it with any. of my friends. Um and then since I. didn't have my phone after that for a. while and I still am not using social. media. I don't I don't know uh on my.

friends end. >> Okay. Um All right. I want to back up a. little bit now. We've talked about. September 10th, but let me get a little. bit of um context here. So um did you. game with Tyler? >> Uh yeah. What kind of games? >> Um, we played some just kind of party games. together, like stuff, anything that. would be multiplayer with a group of. friends. Uh, there was one game he. really liked called Sea of Thieves where.

you play as like a pirate and you can. you can fight against people, but most. of it's just like fishing, fighting. sharks, skeletons kind of stuff. Um, we played some co-op games where. it's like uh you both have to work. together to win in whatever way. Uh, way back when, like when I was just. out of high school, when I uh first knew. him online, we played some like shooting. games together, but I I didn't know him. very well. So, that was just when we had.

like a whole friend group on to play and. he was someone that my friends invited. >> Okay. Um, did you and he ever talk about. politics? Um, he did more than me. I. I didn't really still don't really keep. up with politics very much. Uh, he'd. usually talk about stuff he heard on the. radio on his drive to work in like their. work car since it sounds like their. whole crew went in the same car most of. the time. But, uh, I wouldn't say super.

consistently cuz there wasn't a topic I. really contributed much on. >> About Charlie, correct? Did he ever talk. about Charlie Kirk? >> I I personally had never heard him talk. about Charlie Kirk before specifically. >> Okay. [clears throat]. Um, how about um. political issues? So, did you ever talk. about gender identity issues and LGBTQ. rights? >> Uh, no, not not really. Um.

uh usually if he did talk about politics. stuff, it was uh relating to Trump or. current like policies being uh like. issued or voted voted on, I think. But. yeah.

Okay. So before that you have been. >> for for a short time. Yes. >> Okay. And um I understand you're going. by Luna at some point. >> uh to some people. Yeah. But not as an. overall thing.

Sure. Okay. Um, I think that's all the questions I have. for this portion. Uh, let me check and. see if I've missed anything.

Okay. Um, the Dremel that you talked. about, um, you said he had asked for. that. Is that right? >> Mhm. >> And had he told you it was to inscribe. bullets? >> Yeah. >> And, uh, so did you have a Dremel then?

>> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Uh, it was in our like we had a our. apartment. We had a section where we. kept all our like random tools for. household stuff. uh in our like uh lower. basement level pantry. Um so yeah. >> Okay. And did you give that to him or. tell him where it was? >> I just told him where it was. Yeah. >> Okay. I'm going to go ahead and end the. recording for the 11:02 purposes. Our. sponsor, the Electronic Payments.

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and all good stuff. >> All right, that concludes states exhibit. 16. Miss Hunt. Thank you, Judge. Agent Davis, I asked you yesterday, but. I want to remind the court and those. present, were you physically present at. the interview we just watched in States. exhibit 16? >> Yes, I was there. >> And aside from the court ordered.

redactions, did it appear to you to be fair and. accurate about what you remember that. interview that day? >> Yes. Yes, I do. >> During that interview, did Mr. Twigs was. he shown or or referenced certain items. of evidence? >> Yes, he was. >> What types of items of evidence was he. shown? >> Uh, it was the text messages between. himself and Tyler between himself and. Tyler Robinson, a Discord me, Discord.

chat messages, and a handwritten note. And then we also saw in the video he was. also shown the FBI release press release. photos of the potential suspect. >> That's correct. Yes. >> Have you reviewed all of those items as. part of the investigation? >> Yes, I have. >> You're familiar with them? >> Yes. >> All right. I want to put just on the. witness's screen what's been marked for. identification states exhibit 16.1. And for the record, this is this. includes the edit that the court the one.

edit that the court has uh previously. ordered. >> Thank you. >> Let me know when you see that on your. screen. [snorts].

I see it. I see it now. >> Do you recognize this? >> Uh, yes, I do. >> What is it? >> This is a a photograph of uh screenshots. of text messages between uh Tyler. Robinson and Lance Twigs. This is a. photograph of uh Lance's uh phone. >> So, sorry. You said photograph, you also. said screenshot. Uh can you can you. differentiate or or clarify there? >> Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Um yeah, these are. photographs directly from Lance's phone.

>> How do you know that? >> Uh in Lance's first interview, he is. shown he's showing the FBI agents these. u these text messages. Um describes them. to the agents. Um and at that time those. those uh his phone is photographed. And you testified, I believe yesterday, that Mr. Twig's first interview was the. morning of September 12th, 2025. Is that.

correct? >> That's correct. Yes. >> Were you physically present at that. interview? >> No, I was not there. >> Have you spoken with the officers or. agents that that were? >> Uh, yes. I've spoken to to one of those. agents that was there. And you stated that that first September. 12th interview of Mr. Twigs was. recorded. >> Uh, yes, audio video recorded. >> Have you reviewed that recording? >> Yes, I have. >> So, you stated that we're looking in.

States exhibit 16.1 at a picture of Mr. Twig's phone? >> Yes. >> Do you know who took these photos? >> Yes, it was Agent Larson with FBI. >> Did you speak with Agent Larson and. confirm that? >> I did. And you you kind of made reference to. this already, but how did Mr. Twigs. initially show law enforcement the. relevant text messages? >> Yeah, during that first interview on. September 12th, um he physically they he. he shows them the phone and then.

allows them to photograph the phone. >> And does he identify it as his phone in. that interview? >> Yes, he does. >> Does he refer to any particular uh. features of the phone that allows him to. make that identification? I believe the. second interview he refers to the the. the large crack in the upper left screen. that uh so he he identifies that from in. the his second interview that was given. on April 20th. >> And according to your review of the.

recording of his first interview and in. speaking with the agents that were. there, did he have his personal phone with him. at the time of the September 12th. interview? >> Yes, he did. And was this same text thread that we're. seeing in states exhibit 16.1 shown to. him during his second interview um in. sorry let me get the date right. April 20th 2026 at the Utah County. Attorney's Office that we just observed.

part of in states exhibit 16. >> Yes it was shown to him. Was he asked how Tyler Robinson is is. saved in his phone like as a contact? >> Yeah, just as Tyler. >> uh without saying it obviously. Did he. identify Tyler Robinson's phone number? >> Yes, he did. >> Did you check the number that Mr. Twigs. gave as Tyler Robinson's phone number. against law enforcement records? >> Yes, I did. >> And do they match?

>> Yes, they match. is states exhibit 16.1. a fair and accurate representation of. the text thread between or the relevant. text thread between Mr. Twigs and Mr. Robinson? >> Yes, it is. >> As part of the investigation, was a. Celbrite extraction performed on Mr. Twig's phone? >> Yes, it was. >> Did you personally review that. extraction? >> Yes, I have. >> And according to that extraction, did. Mr. Robinson and Mr. Twigs exchanged.

text messages on September. 10th through 11th, 2025. >> Yes, they did. >> What time was that first text sent? According to the celebrate extraction, >> uh the first text was September 10th at. 11 p.m. >> All right, judge. I would move to admit. uh states exhibit 16.1. and I and then pursuant to court order, I would I would move to publish.

it to the monitors. S. >> Novak, >> we have no further objections beyond. those that the court of course is very. familiar with at this point in time. >> All right. I'll note standing objections. made by defense. Those objections are. overruled. This 16.1 is admitted into evidence and. may be published to the gallery as well. as electronically. distributed through the camera.

>> All right, agent. I want to I'm not. going to go through every single. message, but I do want to have you read. aloud certain portions of them. And I. apologize to council the these are not. actually given a page number. Um, I have. page numbers, but I'm happy to confir. that that we're on the same page as we. go. So, here we're looking at page one. of states exhibit 16.1. If you could start, if you could read.

a little more than halfway down. where it begins, Wednesday 11 p.m., will. you start reading underneath that? >> Yes. Um, so this would have been uh from. from Tyler. Says, "Drop what you're. doing. Look under your keyboard.". >> And I I apologize. Let me stop you. there. How do you know that this that. message would have been from Tyler. Robinson? >> Uh, that's just so any of the messages. in gray would be from Tyler and message. in blue would be from uh from Lance.

It's just way the iPhone. distinguishes the messages. And also. Lance, Lance in his interview also. acknowledges that um who was saying. what? >> And up at the top, who do we see that. this thread is is between? >> Uh uh Tyler. >> All right. Sorry to interrupt you. Uh so. so read that again starting from look. under the keyboard. >> Uh so so uh after that then Lance. responds. He says, "What?" And then he.

says, "You're joking, right?" And then. Tyler says, "Fuck. I tried to delete. that. >> We could scroll down to page two. and if you can continue reading. along. >> Okay. Uh and Tyler says, "I'm still. okay, my love, but I'm stuck in Orm for. a little while longer yet. Shouldn't be. long until I can come home, but got to. grab my rifle still. To be honest, I had. hoped to keep this secret till I died of. old age. I am sorry to involve you.".

And then Lance replies, "You weren't the. one who did it, right?" And Tyler says, "I am. I'm sorry.". Lance says, 'I thought they caught the. person. And then Tyler says, "No, they grabbed. some crazy old dude and interrogated. someone in similar clothing. I had. planned to grab my rifle from the drop. point shortly after, but most of that. side got side of town got locked down. It's quiet, almost enough to get out, but there's one vehicle lingering." If.

we could scroll down to page three, >> continue reading. >> Uh, Lance says, "Why?" And Tyler says, "Why did I do it?" And Lance says, "Yeah.". Tyler says, "I had enough of his hatred. Some hate can't be negotiated out. If. I'm able to gra to grab my rifle, unseen, I will have left no evidence. Going to attempt to retrieve it again. Hopefully, they have moved on. I haven't. seen anything in the news about them.

finding it. We'll update you shortly or. shortly we'll update you by midnight. And then Lance says, "All right, stay. safe. How long have you been planning. this?". >> Scroll down a little bit, please, Kimberly. >> And Tyler replies, "A bit over a week, I. believe. I can get close to it, but. there is a squad car parked right by it. I think they already swept that spot, but I don't want to chance it.". We can scroll down to page four and. continue. reading. Uh about halfway down. I'll.

I'll stop you about halfway down. >> Uh this is while they were spot, but I. don't want to chance it. While they were. parked there. If they had found it, I. imagine there would be more commotion. Again, I'm sorry for roping you into all. of this. You shouldn't have to worry. about this. And Lance replies, "Does anyone else. know?" Tyler says, "Not to my. knowledge." All right, I'll stop you. there. Uh, let's move to page five. So, this should be page four. So, just. scroll down one, please, Kimberly.

And if you could read starting. um, sorry, Kimberly, scroll a bit more. down. if you could read. Um, I don't know. about onethird of the way up. That's. that starts with guess. >> Okay. Um, Tyler says, "Guess I'm guess I'm. just sitting in my car watching reals. for another hour, hoping this guy.

off.". >> And continue. >> And Lance says, "Are you okay still?". And Tyler says, "Yes, checking spot. again now. Will,". >> That's right. Now we're on page six. Continue reading. >> Uh, we'll update soon. He continues, "The squad car was moved further away. enough that I should be able to move in. I backed off cuz I thought I heard. footsteps. Maybe a foot patrol. But the. crickets here are so loud. Going to see if the if the road closer.

to campus is open so I can drive past. and check out. Probably still. closed off though. Getting worried. Hard. to know for sure, but I'm not finding my. rifle. Could be in the wrong spot. Lance says, "Do you think they found. it?" And Tyler says, "Don't know. They. haven't published anything. if they. have. And then Lance says, "Why did you leave. it behind?". >> Oh, sorry, Kimberly, if you could scroll. down.

>> originally. Also, does it have a serial. number? >> We could scroll to page seven. and I'll continue reading. I'll I'll. stop you on this page in a little bit. >> Okay. Uh, so Tyler continues, "Uh, I IDK." If I had, uh, if it had a serial. number, but it wouldn't trace to me, I. worry about prints. I had to leave it in. a in a bush where I changed outfits.

Didn't have the ability or time to bring. it with. >> And stop there, please. And then if we. could go to the next page, page eight. And if you could start at the top. >> Okay. So, Lance says, "Was your change. of clothes there or was that also gone. or did you bring those with you. originally?" Anyway, you could replace. the gun or would he notice?

Then Tyler says, "Only thing I left was. the rifle wrapped in a towel. I'll bet. that canine sniffed it out. Uh, little. snitching bastard. Replace it. Unlikely. I don't fully know what the gun was cuz. it was old as and Gramps did some. modifying. There was a four-digit serial. serial on it. God only knows who it's. registered to. Hopefully some dead guy. who gave it to grandpa. And he continues, "Remember how I was. engraving bullets? The messages. are mostly a big meme. If I see notices.

uh bulgew. on Fox News, I might have a stroke.". and then continue. I'll I'll stop you in. a moment. >> It says, "All right, I'm gonna have to. leave it. That really sucks.". >> Let me stop you there. And then if we. could go on to the next page, page nine. And do you see the the first blue. message we see on page nine? Uh can you. start there? >> Yes. Uh so Lance says, "Do you need it.

for hunting?" And Tyler says, "No, my. dad wanted to use it to use a high. caliber for the rifle hunt. Judging from. today, I say Gramp's gun does just fine. IDK." I think that was a two a 2K scope. Uh Lance says, "Gez.". And then Tyler says, "OMW home, uh 3.5. hours." Lance says, "Drive safe." And.

then Tyler says, "Delete this exchange.". >> And I'll stop you right there. And then, sorry, we're on page nine. If. we can scroll to page 15. and then the second grade message on. page 15, if you could start there.

>> Okay. So, this is Tyler. I'm going to. turn myself in willingly. One of my. neighbors here is a deputy for the. sheriff. We hope to keep things sort of. quiet here. >> and then I'll stop you there. >> Okay. >> And we can remove uh the exhibit from. the screen. Thank you, Kimberly. >> Uh we mentioned a celebrate extraction. of Mr. Twig's phone. Do you know what. time that last uh text was sent? Yeah, I recall it was just before 8:00.

p.m. on uh September 11th. It was I. think 7:42 p.m. is my recollection. >> I'm sorry. September 11th. >> Yes. >> Um would September 12th. make more make sense? Or you're saying. September 11th? >> So September 11th was when he turned. himself in September 11th. Y. >> thank you. >> Y. >> All right. All right, I'm going to show. just for the witness states exhibit.

16.2. >> Let me know when you see that. >> Okay, I see. Yep. >> Do you recognize this? >> I do. Yep. >> What is it? >> Uh, this is just more photos of Lance's. phone. And these are Sorry. These are the the. uh uh. sorry I had to blank uh sorry go with.

your question please. >> Um I'm just asking what it is. So you. said it's photo of Lance's phone. Do you. know if that's from the same time period. as the exhibit we just looked at? >> Uh yes. >> and what is it of? >> These are the Discord uh messages of uh. that Lance had talked about. >> How do you know that? Uh so Lance in the. first interview with FBI shows the phone. the photos are taken by agent Larson and. then these images are shown to Lance.

during a second interview and it. confirms that these are those same. messages and this this is uh photos of. Lance's phone. >> You mentioned an agent Larson took the. photos. Um do you know if he's the same. agent that took the photos of this. exhibit 16.2? >> Uh yes, same agent. >> And you spoke with him to confirm that? Yes, I did. >> Are you aware if Mr. Twigs is actually. part of this Discord thread? >> Uh, he Yes, he is a part of it. Um, he. doesn't in in this section, he doesn't.

reply to it, but he does state in his. statement that he was part of that. thread. >> Does he identify whether Mr. Robinson is. part of that thread? >> He does. >> And when did that happen? Uh he identifies that in this first. interview uh with the two FBI agents and. then he again confirms that in the. second interview. >> Did Mr. Twig say what username on. Discord Mr. Robinson used at least with. respect to this thread? >> Yes, it's the uh Tyler.

IUM. >> And is 16 exhibit 16.2 a fair and. accurate representation of that Discord. thread? >> Yes, it is. Did law enforcement send, as part of. your investigation, did law enforcement. send a subpoena to Discord? >> Yes, they did. >> Were these messages recovered via that. subpoena? >> They were. >> Did you review that? >> Yes, I did. >> And in.

states exhibit 16.2 that is before you, uh, when is the first message from Tyler. sent? uh 7:57 p.m. >> And it says yesterday. Do you have uh. any knowledge of what day that would. have been? >> Yes, this would have been September. 11th. >> So Tyler sends the first message that. you're seeing on exhibit 16.2 September. 11th at 7:57 p.m.

>> Yes, that's correct. >> You testified earlier that Mr. Robinson. arrived at the Washington County. Sheriff's Office approximately at 900. p.m. Is that right? >> Uh, yes, that's correct. >> And although you weren't physically. present there yet because you were. flying down, uh, how do you know that he. arrived approximately around 9:00 p.m.? uh just based on the just the police. reports I reviewed and and then go back. and look at the video and such.

a judge the state moves to admit. states exhibit 16.2 and publish it. pursuant to court order. >> Mr. Novak. >> Thank you. We've already lodged all of. our objections on all three phases. >> All right. Noting the objections. standing objections by defense. Uh. states exhibit 16.2 is admitted into. evidence and may be published only in.

the gallery, not for distribution on. electronic media.

SiriusXM fans, if you are listening to. us now, we've lost audio from the. proceeding, we think intentionally on. their part. They've uh turned off the. mics, we believe, right now, to have a. private consultation between the judge. and the lawyers on whether the public. can have access to the Discord messages. of Tyler Robinson, Lance Twigs, and.

others in their gaming group. There were. at least three confessions alleged um by. my account. One was the letter that he. left under Lance Twig's keyboard. One. was the text messages he and Lance Twigs. had about the letter and what he had. done. And one was in the Discord group. message chat where he confessed, they. said, at 7:57 p.m. on 911, the day after. the murder, one hour before he showed up at the.

sheriff's office to turn himself in. Um, just we're going to go back in there. when the when they allow us to hear. what's happening again, but what an. extraordinary 40 minutes we all just had. together. My god. Tyler Robinson went back home. He. returned to his apartment with Lance. Twigs. the day after the murder and they walked. around together on 911 during the day.

and talked about what he'd done. Moreover, we heard, we'll get to all of. this, but moreover, we heard far more. about their text exchange than has been. made public. The text exchange we know. about because law enforcement identified. it in their what's called the criminal. information, the thing that brings. charges. And we had been reading from. that. We've read from it extensively on. the show this week. This is the first. we've heard some of the additional lines. that were eliminated by ellipses and the.

criminal information and uh they were. they were interesting. They were they. were telling in some instances, but. we're getting a much more full picture. of the exchange that they had like. states exhibit 16.1 Wednesday at 11 p.m. when when. happened was Tyler Robinson had a a. preset text, like an automated text that. showed up on Tyler on Lance Twig's phone.

um that read, "Drop what you were doing. Look under my. keyboard." Oh, we're back. Stand by. I'll get back to you. Let's Let's. listen. >> On September 10th. Um and so at that. point, uh Lance finds this. This is the. letter he finds under that keyboard. >> Okay. So, to clarify, Mr. Twigs gets a. text from Mr. Robinson around 11 p.m. on. September 10th telling him to look under. his keyboard. >> Yes. Correct. >> And this is uh what Mr. Twigs.

represented was underneath the keyboard. >> Yes. Yes. How did law enforcement get this. photograph? >> So, uh, following Lance's first. interview, um, at St. George PD, his. phone is, uh, recovered at that point, taken into evidence, it is, uh, downloaded. I believe it was the. following day or shortly after that. Um. the FBI transported that phone to the.

RCFL which is the regional computer. forensic laboratory um in Salt Lake. City. The phone was downloaded uh. through Celbrite and um after that. following that download was that was. complete. Um uh SBI received. a a flash drive containing that. download. Um, from there it went to a. SCAK analyst to go through that data of. his phone to look for any pertinent. evidence or information that may be on.

there. And at that point, um, that this. image of this letter was, uh, uh, located. >> All right. I'm going to break down a few. things. You mentioned. I just want to make sure the record's. clear. You mentioned Celebrate a few. times. What is Celebrate? It's a it's a. downloading software that's commonly. used by law enforcement. I I don't do. that myself, but it's commonly used um. to recover data to download electronic.

devices, particularly cell phones. >> And then you mentioned SCAK. What does. that mean? >> It's the statewide information analysis. center. It's a vision a division uh. within DPS. It's a fusion center. They. assist uh law enforcement with. intelligence, various uh uh intelligence. uh uh information for for our. investigations. >> You mentioned that you don't personally. do celebrate phone extractions. Have you. spoken to the law enforcement officers. that performed the celebrate extraction.

on Mr. Twig's phone in this case? >> Um I don't believe I specifically talked. to to those individuals RCFL that did. that. Um. um but uh but but they yeah that was. then provided to SBI. >> Did you speak with officers at SBI that. have recovered this photo that we're. seeing in states exhibit 16.3? >> Yes. Yes, I've spoken to Yeah, I have. spoken with uh um in the SCAK analyst. who particularly in particular found. this image. I've spoken to her.

personally as well. >> Was Mr. Twigs shown what's been marked. as it states exhibit 16.3 during his. second interview. >> Yes, he was. >> And again, you were present for that. >> Yes, I was there. >> Is exhibit 16.3 a fair and accurate. representation of the photo law. enforcement obtained from Mr. Twig's. phone. Um, and that he was subsequently. shown in the second interview. >> Yes, it's fair and accurate. Your honor, the state would move to.

admit uh exhibit 16.3 and then also. publish pursuant to court order. >> Mr. Novak, >> just noting the objections that have. previously been made and I think that. the court's order is that it may be. published in the courtroom only. >> Thank you. Noting the standing objection. by defense uh 16.3. Correct. >> Correct. is admitted into evidence and. may be published only in the courtroom. and not be uh shown or videoed.

Once again, they've cut the mics inside. the courtroom to have a discussion about. we don't know what. Uh they're planning. on publishing that exhibit inside the. courtroom, but not beyond for now. But. we know what it is, at least in part. It's the note that we were talking about.

just as we tossed back to the courtroom. that Tyler Robinson left for Lance Twigs. underneath Tyler Robinson's keyboard in. his bedroom at in the apartment that. they shared on September 10th, 2022. Sorry, 25. The day after Charlie was. killed. Sorry. The day Charlie was killed, Tyler. had set the text message on his phone, the text messaging function to deliver. an automated message to Lance Twigs that.

read, "Drop what you are doing and look. under my keyboard." We know from the. criminal information, even though. they're not showing us what was under. the keyboard, that there was a note, this is I'm reading directly from the. criminal information. The roommate. looked under the keyboard and found a. note that stated, quote, I had the. opportunity to take out Charlie Kirk and. I'm going to take it. End quote. Police. found a photograph of this note. You. heard them talking about that in court. just there. They found that photograph. on Lance Twig's phone thanks to this.

celebrate technology. It was unclear to. me whether that was still in his. photographs as an easily retrievable. photo or whether he had deleted the. photo. and that's why they needed this. technology celebrate to find it. Did not. hear testimony about that. Um, and then. the criminal information adds the. following text exchange then took place. and then you heard the long and back and. forth on it. Let's go back into the. court. >> How do you know that?

>> Uh, I've viewed the FBI's website um and. I I recall seeing these images released. on September 11th. >> Does states exhibit 16.4? Is that a fair. and accurate representation of what you. reviewed from the FBI and that the FBI. released? >> Yes, it is. >> The state moves to admit exhibit 16.4. and publish uh according to court order. >> Mr. Novc, >> no further objections. Thank you.

>> All right. Noting the standing objection. by defense overruling that objection. states exhibit 16.4 for is admitted into. evidence and may be published. in the courtroom. >> And again, in the in the Discord, okay, once again, they argue uh and then.

they pop back up. I guess they're. arguing. I mean, just just when they. identify the exhibits, I guess they. don't want us to hear what they're. identifying. I'm guessing from what we. heard at the tail end there, we know. that 16 um one. uh was, I believe, text messages. 16.2. was the Discord messages. [cough and clears throat]. Wait, 16.1? Yes, 16.1 was the text. messages. You're joking, right? And then.

we heard Tyler add, "Fuck, I tried to. delete that. That's new. That's new. That was not in the criminal information. as something Tyler said. But so he. texted him, "Look under my keyboard." He. looked under the keyboard. Then he. responds to Tyler saying, and he reads, "I had the opportunity to. take out Charlie Kirk and I'm going to. take it." Then he texts to Charlie, "What?" with multiple exclam or question. marks. You're joking, right? And what we. now know is Robinson responded, "Fuck, I. tried to delete that.".

Very interesting. Um, so I guess. Tyler had sent this automated message. It's kind of interesting. And if Tyler's. telling the truth that he tried to. delete that text to to Lance, then Tyler. was taken back by Lance's text, which. must have come out of the blue and away. to him at, you know, 10 p.m. that night. saying, "What? You're joking, right?". And Tyler's first response was, "F, I.

tried to delete that." And then they. were off to the races with. um Tyler. There was a lot more in [clears throat]. the actual text exchange than there was. in the criminal information. And we have. the screen grabs from the actual texts. which we will go through. I can't do. that live on the air with you right now, but you heard them. Um lot more details. about why are they parked there? The. crickets are allowed. Does um does. anyone else know? Not to my knowledge. That was the first we heard all of those. details. And then Tyler telling Lance,

"Delete this exchange." Also, so. interesting. Did he? Again, I don't know. if they got that text exchange off of. Lance's text message records like we all. have on our phones or thanks to that. Crime Brightite technology that retreats. it. Here's one we're showing. Can you. text it to me, Steve, so I can see it up. close? I can't read the monitor from uh. where I am. Um, so yeah, unclear to me whether Tyler. actually had I'm sorry, Lance had.

deleted all of this and they just. recovered it or whether it was still on. his phone. Either way, the efforts to. cover it up by delete this exchange did. not work. Um, it's all there and for the. first time we're actually seeing the. back and forth with like the text. message. Here it is. Uh, reading here 7. p.m. Does that still work for you? Oh, wait. Hold on a second. This is before. the the shooting, I guess. I'm trying to. read it on my phone. I love you.

Mwah. Mwah. I love you more so much. Much so muah ma. They're doing the kissy. sounds. These are Okay, that's actually. quite interesting. This is the leadup to. his automated text alerting Lance that. he's killed Charlie. And they talk. So, you get a feel a little bit for how. these two talk. Um, this is earlier. I. can't tell the date, but it's it's prior. to the murder. A day pri I can see it's. maybe the Sunday prior to the Wednesday.

murder. 700 p.m. Does that still work. for you? Yep. I love you. That's Monday. It's blurry, but I think I can read that. it's Monday at 1:15. I love you, writes. I think Tyler. Yeah. Um, Lance responds, "Love you, too. Hope works going well." Then. Wednesday, well, Wednesday, that was the day of the. murder. And it's 4:33.

p.m. Well, that's fascinating. And Wednesday, 4:33 p.m., Tyler texts. Lance, "Love you, mwah, mwah." Like, Mwah. Typed out twice. And and Tyler responds, sorry, Lance responds, "I love you, Morses. Mwah, mwah, mwah." I mean, okay. Then that same day, Wednesday at 11 p.m. comes in from Tyler. Drop what you were.

doing. Look under my keyboard. And Lance. responds, "What?" With the excl. marks, you're joking, right? And then, I tried to delete that. Very interesting. and we're getting. more. But but truly the most interesting. thing to me that we've heard in all of. this is. that he went Tyler went back home on. September 11th, the day after the. murder. That Lance said, "I saw him when. I woke up. He was walking around the.

house. I went I went home and it was. just Tyler there. I said goodbye to him. and I went back to my parents house.". the the prosecutor was asking if he was. acting erratically, which which Lance. had apparently signed on to and then. said yes. He was pacing around a lot. Um, Lance said he didn't go into detail. about what he had done, but I asked him. if what he said the night before was. true and he said yes.

He cried and said he wished he hadn't. done it. Unbelievable. What's that? We're back, Steve. Oh, no, we're not back. Okay. Yeah. He. cried and said he wished he hadn't done. it. He said he would talk to his parents. or turn himself in when you left. Was. that the plan? Yes. I did not want to be. at our apartment when that happened or. when you said possible law enforcement. got there and went from there. And this.

is just. it's chilling. I don't know. It's just, you know, he cried and said. he wished he hadn't done it. And what. good does that do? He was crying on September 11th, wishing. he hadn't done it. Think of the. condition of Erica Kirk. and the nation, all of us. Like,

okay. So, this is the first we've had. any indication. He's sorry. He's sorry. that he did it. Great. It's not going to spare his life. It's just something about knowing that. Not as forgiving as Erica. It's gling in. some way. Okay. You're sorry. Maybe you. should have thought about it a little. bit more before you took out your. All right, we're going to bring in our. legal panel and get their thoughts. Mark.

and Matt are out, but Dave Aronberg is. here along with Mark Iglar. Um, as well. as Viva Fry. Viva is a Rumble host. Dave's former uh prosecutor of Palm. Beach County and Mark is a criminal and. civil attorney. Guys, pretty stunning. Pretty stunning stuff there. Like my jaw. was on the floor. We did get to see. Lance Twigs. First of all, part of the. video was played, which I thought was. very helpful cuz you could see him. He. was in a suit. He was dressed as a man,

even though the defense keeps calling. him Luna. Um, he said he's only Luna for. some people. Uh, but he was wearing a. video. He was wearing a suit in the. video. He had long hair. He was chewing. gum. Here's a picture of him, which they. then asked him to spit out, which he. did. And to think of Tyler Robinson. sitting in that courtroom, Dave. Arinburgg, watching his roommate, former lover. whom he will never see again in all.

likelihood in person or at least not. never be able to touch. Um, give it all. up. you know, talk about the text. messages, the the letter that was found. under the keyboard, the the conversation. the day after, an extraordinary. conversation the day after. I can only. imagine what the dynamic was inside that. courtroom. Your reaction to what we just. heard, >> Megan, I thought that Twigs came across. as credible. It sounds like he had no.

part in this and he generally was. shocked that Tyler Robinson did this. And these messages are really damning. I. know there are a lot of people on the. internet that want to believe what they. want to believe. There's nothing that. could prove otherwise that they think. this is some international conspiracy or. somehow Tyler Robinson was framed. But. you've got a guy who confessed at least. three and possibly four times. You have. the note under the keyboard and then you. have him saying, "Oh, he had forgotten.

he had sent the the text that alerted. Twigs to the note under the keyboard.". Oh, darn. So, I mean, it's very typical. for a like Tyler Robinson to act. like that. Uh, number two, you've got. the subsequent one that he justified the. murder because he had enough of his of. Charlie's hatred. Then you had the. Discord chat later on and then you had. and I don't think we've heard it yet, but you're going to hear about how when. his parents confronted him, he confessed.

to his parents according to reports. So, four times. And for those out there who. think, well, the wording of one of those. confessions is so Shakespearean, it. could not have come from an incel like. this guy. No, you saw subsequent. messages like his his dismay that they. could find the rifle and what is he. going to do to replace his grandfather's. rifle and he was cursing and he was. scared. That's who this guy is. They've. got the right guy. Even the mwah mwah, you know, like the kissy like the.

clearly they don't communicate the way. some of us would conjure up in our heads. like the gamers, these, you know, young. gamers. Like these are two gay men, at. least one of whom, maybe both, are a. furry. One of whom may or may not be. trans. Like, I don't think we can be. assuming how they talk. I think we need. to be reading the text messages to glean. how they talk. >> Megan, that's such a good point. I was. on our show uh MK True Crime and I was.

debating with Lauren Conland about that. about the language used and she said, "It does sound weird and unusual and I. don't see it. I I can't relate to it.". And I said, "Yeah, you're not a furry, right? I mean, we're talking about a. whole different universe of people here. and so we're supposed to be like, well, they don't comply with our current. standards of decency and language." Come. on. The whole thing is weird. >> Yeah. I don't know a lot of 20-year-old. guys who are doing the mwah mwah to each. other. Like that's okay. We're in a.

different territory here already on the. the preceding text which came days. before. So if this is like all some FBI. plot to like come up with a text. message. Boy, they did a good job. They. went back days. They made the super gay. exchanges between the two of them to set. up phrases like my love. I don't you. know whatever. But Mark Igelar, listening to that whole thing, it was. pretty extraordinary. But the Lance Twig. testimonial and the evidence that came. in right right after um from that agent. who we listened to to that was Lauren.

Hunt, the deputy DA doing the uh. cross-examination. And sorry, who D say. that again, Steve? Oh, agent Davis. Oh, yeah. It was agent. Brian Davis with the Utah State Bureau. of Investigation. your reaction to what. you heard? >> I thought the testimony was compelling. I think the state did a great job laying. it out. Not just for the judge who. again, I think, you know, in in 20. minutes would have found probable cause, but for those independents, I'll call.

them, not the conspiracy theorists, they're never going to be convinced. It. doesn't matter. This is nail in the. coffin right here. It's so clear that. he's guilty. But for those people, it. doesn't matter. for the independents. And by that I mean those who are. reasonable, those who like myself have. an open mind and say, "Okay, I wasn't. there. I don't know what happened.". Prove to me the chain of custody that. there weren't some agents who said, "Let's frame this guy like the Mona Lisa. for some reason, leaving the true killer.

out there um for for no reason at all, risking their life in in prison to frame. Tyler Robinson, which makes zero sense.". I think they did a great job of laying. this out. Now, I do want to one other. point. The fact that he feels sorry for. what he did, to me, there was only one. thing that came from that. If ever. politics get put aside and prosecutors. choose to extend a life in prison offer. where he waves his right to appeal and.

he goes away, no big trial, no more. copycat folks because they're watching. him and all the media attention he's. getting. If they ever do that, it's more. likely in my opinion that he would. accept something like that because of. that remark that he felt sorry for what. he did. He's not one of these hardcore. folks who can't wait to take the witness. stand and read all the things that. caused him to be so offended u by what. uh Kirk said that might have caused him.

to do this. He's not seeking his 15. minutes. It looks like he would likely. take a play. >> Viva, your thoughts? Well, I was going. to say one thing. You know, to to Mark's. point, um, you know, people are going to. say guilty. Remind everybody this is. just probable cause. Probable cause has. been established. Period. Full stop. People can still say it wasn't him in. the video. Lance Twigs is lying. Okay, you'll raise your reasonable doubt at. trial. From a probable cause. perspective, this preliminary hearing is. over with a, you know, a big fat period.

at the end of it. I'm not convinced uh. you know unlike Dave I'm not convinced. Lance might have come off as sincere but. I'm more convinced now than I was before. that he had some involvement in this. You know one question I would have loved. for I think it was Brian Davis who asked. him the questions in the video whoever. was asking him the questions. I would. have loved for them to ask Lance if he. was Ryan McBride deputy DA. >> Sorry. I I would have loved for them to. have asked if he knew what messages. Tyler engraved in the bullets because if. you're going hunting with your family,

you don't need, "Hey, fascist catch on. the bullet." Uh I'm still thoroughly. convinced people Yeah. people I'm I'm. convinced people in the Discord chats. had advanced knowledge. I'm convinced. there were more people involved in the. planning and certainly now we're seeing. in the cover up afterwards a people who. aided and emedded Tyler Robinson after. the act and I believe that many of them. had fornowledge of what was coming. beforehand. But from a probable cause. perspective, it's over. And let people. try to raise whatever reasonable doubt. they think they can despite the.

evidence. But just to answer all those. people on Twitter on X right now, it's. the wrong guy. He wasn't the right. height. Those those exchanges were. manufactured. You'll raised a reasonable. doubt. But when it comes to probable. cause, it's been established. And. Lance's testimony was the nail in the. coffin. >> Yeah. And the other thing is you can. hear the prosecution who's clearly, you. know, they've been listening to the. alternate theories, I'll say, um because. they spent time asking him about the.

Discord. phone, the Discord confession, you know, where he the last thing he did before he. put himself into custody with that. sheriff's deputy friend was to go on. Discord and confess again. And one of the theories out there has. been that was clearly a lie because he. was in custody at the time that message. on Discord was posted at 7:57 p.m. on. 911, the day after the shooting. And you. saw the prosecutor there, the Lauren. Hunt, the deputy DA, going through the.

timeline. And the officer said 7:57 p.m. That is when Tyler posted that message. on Discord. And she said, "And when did. he arrive at the sheriff's office?" and. he said 900 p.m. Uh, so establishing the. timeline. Again, that's not for the. judge. That that's to prove to the world. he was not in custody when he posted. that discord to confession. He was still. at his home. He had plenty of time to. get down to the local uh sheriff's. office and turn himself in. Um, I do.

think it's interesting like I don't know. whether the message the photo of the. message that was left under the keyboard. and or the text messages were turned. over by Lance Twigs or found by. Celebrite. I I to this moment don't know. that. And and let's not forget Dave, one. of the interesting things is he did not. call law enforcement. Lance Twigs did. not call the cops. Didn't call him on. 910. didn't call him on 911 when he got. that message from from Tyler. He didn't.

call him when he saw Tyler walking. around the house and read double down on. the on the confession. They they had to. go to him after Tyler turned himself in. So, I don't know. I mean, in another. world, you could see the DA, someone. like yourself and the cops finding a way. to slap charges on this guy. No. >> Yeah. Especially because Twigs's DNA was. found on the screwdriver and uh and on. the towel recovered with the rifle. They. live together, so you could have an. innocent explanation. But if you wanted. to say that Twigs was an accessory, he.

didn't report it. Um you could try. The. thing is is that it's got to be more. than knowing about it uh and not saying. there's no good Samaritan law that you. have to report. But if he tried to cover. it up, if he helped Tyler Robinson evade. capture or cover it up, then he could be. charged as an accessory. He's only been. given use immunity for his testimony. So. that means they could develop. independently evidence against him. So. he's not out of the woods yet. But my. take, and I don't totally disagree with.

Viva. My take is that he sounded. credible and I don't think he was an. accessory to it, but I would keep an. open mind that if they do have evidence. that showed that he helped keep the heat. away from his roommate, then yeah, then. they should go after him, too. >> The I'm just going through my notes on. his testimony. How he said, okay, they. spent the night together in the same. apartment on 99 the night before the. crime. Uh, when did he leave early? He.

said maybe 5:00 a.m. could have been. even earlier 1:00 a.m. saying that he. had to work that day. He had a long. drive to work that day. And it wasn't. until late that evening, 11:00 p.m. or. 10, according to my text here, that he. received the automated message. Um, he. did cop to seeing Tyler engrave bullets. earlier. Tyler told him that he was. going hunting with his family. told him. to make sure Oh, he told Tyler to make. sure he did not set off the bullet in.

the house. Tyler asked about a Dremel to. engrave. I didn't know what that was, but my team found a picture of a Dremel. and it's like a machine that I don't. know. It's like a carving, I guess. >> Yeah. A mini handyman's tool, like a. dentist drill, but more powerful. You. switch the end if you want to cut, engrave, whatever. It's a good It's a. good tool. >> I mean, you have to be very precise at. the end if you're engraving a bullet. >> Oh, yeah. No, it's like it's a pencil. tip. I mean, you can basically use it as. a pencil for engraving and then you can. buff stuff out of it. It's uh it's it's. very useful.

>> I mean, that in and of itself, Viva, really is suspicious. Like, they're. sitting in the same room and he's. engraving bullets and they're lovers and. he doesn't say, >> "No, >> what do you have there?". >> What What are you engraving? I'm telling. you I I I it might be my own bias. because I'm coming into Lance's. testimony already believing what I. believe and I want to find things to. substantiate it, but that he's not even. more shocked at what has happened that. he doesn't put that he claims that he. didn't put any of this together and it's. only late in the evening that it even.

clicks with him that Tyler might have. done this. I've got great difficulty. believing that. But my one of my. takeaways is, you know, listening to. Lance talk about him waking up at was it. 12 or 1:00 in the afternoon because he. didn't have work that day. What what. repulses me in all of this and at the. end of the day, you know, people are. going to analyze this like a a murder. trial and it turns into something, you. know, a technical analysis, is the. humans behind this, you have these two. two degenerates, one more so than the. other. And now at the center of the.

universe, it almost feels like they love. the attention that they're getting right. now. Lance is being asked questions. about his childhood, you know, the games. that they used to play. And it's like. it's all the attention in the world that. they've ever wanted because they snuffed. out of this earth an existence of a man. that was incomparably uh you know a. better human. And it just makes it. nauseates me to actually listen to this. testimony where they might even revel in. the attention and Tyler never got this. much attention in his life before. And. what made him famous was snuffing out. the life of Charlie Kirk.

>> Oh, it's stomach turning. who would have. been a future president without. question. Who led a movement, who led a. Christian revival, who at such a young. age had already made such a difference. in our world, just a profound impact on. so many levels. And yeah, these two. losers sitting there with their pot and. whatever else they were doing in that. apartment, their stupid memes and their. gamer life contributing next to nothing. took it all away.

He was asked, "Did you read that note, that automated message?" Yes. Around. 11:00 on on September 10th, they showed. a picture of it. They they uh he said. then he read the note and then he put. the note back on on Tyler's desk. We. don't clearly Tyler got rid of it. because we've never seen the actual. note. The only reason we know about that. note that was under uh Tyler's keyboard. that Tyler told Lance to go look for is. because Lance took a picture of it and.

the cops found that picture on his phone. and ultimately found him after Tyler. confessed. But they've never gotten the. actual note. Clearly Tyler went there. and did some cleanup the next day, which. is interesting. Um let's see. He left a. message. I don't think I uh he said saw. Tyler. We talked about that. Didn't go. into detail. Yeah, I asked him whether. what he said the night before was true. Yes. I mean, that's another confession, Mark, that we now have the confession in. the note. We have the confession in the.

texts. We have the confession in the. discord. We appear to have. very close to a confession to his. parents. I mean, it's as close as you. can get. They don't use that word. confession when he they discuss what he. said to his parents, but here is how. they describe it in the criminal. information. his um they agreed that the. person in the surveillance looked like. their son. They believed the rifle. looked like the son that the the rifle. they had given him. The father contacted. the son, asked him to send a photo of. the rifle. Robinson did not respond.

Robinson's father spoke on the phone. with Robinson. Robinson implied that he. planned to take his own life. Robinson's. parents were able to convince him to. meet at their home. Robinson implied. that he was the shooter when they met. Implied that he was the shooter and. stated that he couldn't go to jail and. just wanted to end it. But when asked. why he did it, Robinson explained to his. parents, "There is too much evil and the. guy Charlie Kirk spreads too much hate.". They talked about Robinson turning. himself in and convinced Robinson to. speak with a family friend and a retired. deputy sheriff. At Robinson's father's.

request, the family friend met with. Robinson and his parents and convinced. Robinson to turn himself in. So, I don't. use the word confession, Mark, but I. mean, might as well. And now we have a a. fifth a fifth confession when he saw. Lance Twigs the day after and Lance. said, "Was it true what you texted me?". And he said, "Yeah, it was." I mean, once again, and that he wished he hadn't. done it, and that he cried as he paced. around the apartment, said he would talk. to his parents or turn himself in. I.

mean, how many confessions do we need? >> Right. one is good enough for me to run. to the prosecution and define winning by. begging them and pleading them and. getting them to offer life. That's why I. think that that's what the defense is. doing. They're getting past this. probable cause of hearing, which again, as Viva made very clear, I agree with. him. The chances of this judge not. finding probable cause, I equate to. getting struck by lightning.

while you have the winning lottery. ticket in your hand. [laughter] It is it. is guaranteed to happen. Um, but let me. go back to the crying because I I think. I I keep getting downloads as to why. that's even more significant. A guilty verdict, I think, is going to. happen at his trial, assuming this isn't. resolved to a life sentence. You go to. the penalty phase. You got 12 people who. are deciding whether he should live or. die. And death is different. However you. feel about it, Megan, you would be like, "All right, let's go straight to death.

No questions asked. It's very personal. And when you start to hear things like. him crying, him wishing he didn't do it, while that would have zero impact on you. and maybe other panelists here, that. could have an impact on at least one of. the 12 jurors. And since they require a. unanimous verdict to give him death, that's a concern. It's not a guarantee. that you're going to get the death. penalty here. And the other thing just to continue.

that thought, Mark, is that everything. we hear about Tyler Robinson, like we opened the show today with this. reporting from this well-known YouTuber, and this guy says he was contacted by a. friend of the pair of them, Robinson and. Twigs, and that that person gave this. YouTuber a bunch of like we showed. pictures from what he said was inside. their apartment, a bunch of details on. both of them, Tyler Robinson and Lance. Twig. And if you believe all of this, the.

takeaway is Lance Twigs was a hot mess. and Tyler Robinson was kind of fine. Not. thriving exactly, but not the problem. Like maybe realizing he was gay, but. like that's it. He he wasn't the one. manic and crying and doing experiments. with mold and then whisks with metal on. them trying to grow in the. apartment and you know swaying between.

like huge bouts of depression and then. manic maniacal smiling and giggling. while he did these crazy drawings. That. was all twigs. So, I I don't know if I. don't know if that answers anything. about how Tyler Robinson one day pulled. out his gun and shot Charlie Kirk, according to the prosecution, but it. it's not like hearing about Charles. Manson, who is this like frothing at the. mouth serial killer who loved killing.

>> Who's that? >> That's for you, Mark. >> Oh, it is for me. No, agreed. Yeah. Just. it's not like a lifetime of crime. >> Oh, absolutely. No. And and and again, that's another argument. I mean, I know. it gets people upset to think that. there's any way that he might not get. death, but it's another argument to be. made to the 12 people who are deciding. whether he should live or die. the. absence of the Charlie Manson like. thought process, the record dating back.

to the disco crisis which you would hope. to find on someone you're finally going. to give the ultimate sanction to. What. he did was abhorrent without question. But again, you've got to fine-tune the. argument and say why he should die and. not spend the rest of his life in. prison. And again, that is not a. guaranteed. We've seen it over and over. again in high-profile cases where we. think it's a slam dunk and two or three. jurors say, "You know what? No, it'd be. worse for him in in jail. Let him let.

him live in prison and maybe he'll get. killed there." Something like that. >> Here's the sound bite. Um, by the way, before I play it, it's. interesting because. what we learned at the top of the show. where we talked about that what the. YouTuber reported was that Tyler was in. a caretaking role toward Lance Twigs. Tyler kind of had his act more together. you know, he had a job and he wasn't. having I don't know if it's bipolar or.

what, but the those huge emotional. swings and he was they they described. him as as Lance's handler, but like he. had defaulted to a caretaking role of. Lance Twigs. And Lance is the one who is. doing HRT, according to this YouTuber, like really starting to do like like. offmarket hormone replacement therapy as. he grew breasts and was trying to turn. himself into a woman- which in many. circumstances drives people nuts and. they unleash violence on us. Um, but it,

you know, along this same line, you're. going to get an argument that he thought. he was taking care of Lance Twigs that. day, too. you know, this hate he was so. he was so he so objected to in Charlie. was about this issue. That's that's what. we think they're going to be able to. prove. And um you know, you see Luna. sitting there in a suit with long hair. projecting, I don't know what, but this. is going to be an ongoing theme that. like this is some sort of a caregiving.

type situation in Tyler's head. Here's. the sound bite from Lance Twigs about. the day after the murder seeing Tyler in. their apartment. >> And did he talk about what he had done? >> Uh, didn't go into detail. He just I. just asked him in person if what he said. was true the night before and he said it. was. I started crying a little bit and. said he wishes he hadn't done it. uh and. then kept going around and.

just doing stuff I think to keep himself. busy or distracted or something. They. >> I mean Viva, can I just say like I don't. believe that. There's no way they he. just said, "Is it true what you told me. last night?" Yes, it's true. >> That's what I was just trying to look up. in terms of when the first images of. Tyler Robinson were circulated to the. public to identify the individual. Yeah, I think I think Lance said in his in his. testimony. >> Oh,

>> well, Lance in his testimony. Yeah, I I. wasn't on social I wasn't on social. media much. I I first of all, I have. trouble believing that. I'd like to know. when the first images were circulated. cuz to me, there's no doubt in my mind. that he knew it was true and he might. have known before that uh text message. went out to him. And when Tyler says, "Oh, I meant to delete that." I mean, some people could say, "Well, he meant. to delete it to send another type of. protection uh self-serving protection. email to his lover, Lance Twigs." But, you know, I I don't believe it. It's. like that he comes in, he's admitted to.

what he's done. Uh you you've seen the. news. I don't care if Lance is on social. media or not, but I believe he is, and I. believe he knew earlier than than that. And then he's like, "Did you really do. it?" And it's that part is implausible. to me except for the fact that his. testimony has to cover his own ass. because, you know, above and beyond his. use immunity, he doesn't have blanket. immunity and he needs to cover his own. butt while giving the prosecution what. they need uh to go ahead and charge and. and convict Tyler Robinson. But no, that. part doesn't make sense to me. And I I I.

would like to know what Tai Lance Twig's. social media footprint is because I. given their age, given what they're. going into, given their Discord. propensities. I I don't think his social. media footprint is is nothing. And I'd. love to know what it is. >> I disagree with my team is telling me, Viva, that they released the pictures of. the shooter. Okay. Again, none of us. knew who that was. We just saw the. pictures of the shooter per the FBI at. 10:00 a.m. Utah time on September 11th. >> Okay. So would have been I think by this. timeline right around when he was seeing.

Tyler Robinson in their apartment. He. says I saw him when I woke up he was. walking around the house. Um so I mean. they were probably released by the time. he saw him. Uh and of course the night. before he had received the text saying. it was me. I'm waiting to get my gun. I. got to get my gun. It worked pretty. good. Grandpa's gun got it done. It was. only a $2,000 scope. I mean, you've been. given a lot of details by Tyler, but I. just don't believe I don't believe that. just your lover has just committed a.

murder, a a forgive the term, but. sensational murder. And um it's all over. the news. There's a manhunt. And you. know, everywhere the FBI's got your. lover's picture out there. Both of the. lover's parents knew it was him. And and. you just say, "Is it is it true what you. texted me?" No. You're going to be like, you're going to know everything. Why? Why'd you do it? What were you thinking? You know, now what are you going to run?

And if you were in on it, the. conversation is going to sound even. different than that. I don't know, Dave. Aronberg. Like, you're for as a former. prosecutor, I would think this is a. stone you'd want to keep turning, like. keep digging under that stone to see how. far we go. >> Yeah. And this is precisely the point. that defense lawyers will seize upon to. cast doubt on his credibility. But as my. co-panelist said, this D is cast. I. mean, this probable cause hearing is. just for probable cause, not for beyond. a reasonable doubt. They've got so much. evidence. So, really, this is about.

trying to get anything you can to make. life miserable for the prosecutors, to. force them to come to the table and take. the death penalty off the table, out of. the equation. Um, so, but no, >> we're not there. >> We're not there yet, that's for sure. U. it is it is interesting. Is is that. true? You know, that that does sound. like Twigs is exaggerating what he said. at the time. does seem like that's not. exactly what he said. Of course, it. doesn't. >> or or un underexaggerating like under. >> underplays. Yeah. Yeah. Under Yeah. He's downplaying.

what happened between the two of them. >> Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, they'll say, "Well, you know, he was they're they're. so shocked. This is the kind of thing. they say." But yes, fair enough. None of. it though cast any doubt upon who did it. and the fact that Tyler Robinson has so. much information, including confessions, repeated confessions against him, that. he's going down for this. Fair point. The extent of which Twigs is involved in. this is still an open question even. though the authorities apparently. including the FBI think that he was not.

involved and that's why they're going to. go to the mat with him as a key witness. with use immunity thinking that he. wasn't even an accessory. But you know. I'm open to information if we find. otherwise. >> Megan I guess I'm the only one Megan I'm. the only one out of four here who thinks. that it's possible that it happened. exactly as Twig said. Now, I also would. not be shocked if it didn't happen that. way, but I'm picturing him saying, "Wait, is it true what you told me? Is. that true?" I I totally can picture.

that. And I also don't see the. prosecutors wanting to push any further, especially now because his testimony has. been, you know, put into evidence. This. is what his testimony is, and I don't. know that they're going to push any. further because it advances the state's. case and it's already been done. So I'm. just saying I I see it play out that way. and I I mean how you would have handled. it and you know you don't know what's in. these people. We are we are nothing like. these people. So when he says did you.

you know is did you do it? Is that is. that is it true what you said whatever. he said. Yeah I see him saying that. >> Why not? it is that that he allegedly. got the text message the night of then. uh Tyler doesn't come back that evening. and then comes back in the morning when. the the news you know has been fleshed. out. >> it you know it does at this point it. doesn't matter from Tyler's perspective. the real question is whether or not. Lance had a greater involvement or. anybody else and then you know to go all. the way back to Joe Kent and his. investigation or the rumors that he.

requested cash Patel look into foreign. elements you know the idea that they. wouldn't want to complicate the. prosecution against Tyler Robinson by. further implicating Lance Twigs is is a. theory that others have said is one of. the reasons why uh they may not have dug. deeper or pursued investigations into. Lance Twigs because it might complicate. uh the conviction that they want to get. of at least Tyler Robinson in this case, right? Um, a and there was some great. frustration in the public eye that it.

doesn't look like every stone had been. unturned in terms of who else might have. been involved in this plot and you know. who else was on those Discord chats. But. no, to me it doesn't I mean again I I. all of this is beyond human. comprehension from anybody with a with a. a moral compass. Um, but I just I don't. believe what Lance is saying. necessarily. Oh, was it really you? To. me, it's more like it's to me it's more. like let's cover this up and let's try. to find a way to get you out of the. country and you know I didn't do. anything so I'll worry about that later. That that's how I would see it playing. out the next day. Not. >> I'm shocked and stunned. No, it's holy.

crap. I I think I knew that this was. coming and I knew since last night and. now what are we going to do? >> Not even that I'm pretty sure I knew. that this was coming. I did know this. was coming and I told these other. lunatics on Discord about it. That's why. they've been posting messages saying. wait until you see September 10th and. what happens. And then when September. 10th came, I told you, you know, like. big news is coming at Utah Valley. University. You wait. And then it came, bro, that was it. You know, it's like I. I have to believe that the FBI looked.

into each and every one of those and. somehow came away convinced that that. was just meaningless talk. I mean, I'm. I'm going to guess this is what the FBI. would have told us, but there because. there's been no indictments, you know, Viva that like nobody else got indicted. beyond Lance Twigs and and it could have. been Tyler or Lance Twigs who would have. told them some such a thing on here, but. there's no way the FBI didn't talk to. the people who posted those messages.

>> I I I I agree. And then the, you know, if you say, "Well, I trust the FBI did a. thorough investigation," you'll be. accused of of gobbling up what they. refer to as fed slop these days. Um, >> I know. >> No, but the the problem is like to me, if they did not go in and examine each. and every person in all of those Discord. uh chats, whatever the hell they call, uh, it's it's either dereliction of duty. or, uh, you know, they don't want to. know who was in on those chats. >> They did. I asked Cash Patel about that.

directly on this show. I asked him about. whether they'd be doing that and he said. yes. I just He's not an idiot. He wants. to solve this case. He wants anybody. responsible. And I realize if you're if. you if you think the government is. behind this, you're saying what are you. saying? No, he doesn't. He wants to he's. part of the cover up. But I I don't. believe that. Um I think he wants to. solve this case and I would love he. would love to indict anybody responsible. or who had fornowledge and had a role. But if he found people with fornowledge.

but no role, we deserve to know that, too. Because while they may not be. indictable, as you guys point out, there's no good Samaritan rule. They. they're totally subjected to scorn. They. they are they should receive all of our. scorn. I'd love to know their names. What if somebody hires one of these. lunatics? Like, who the are they? I'm sorry, but from the beginning, I've. wanted to know who are they? They were. predicting his murder when it happened. They said, "Told you." And we've just.

been asked to kind of look the other. way. And I feel like we've been asked to. look the other way on Lance Twigs, too. Maybe it's because they would preserve. his credibility. I don't know. I don't. care. But let me read you this quickly. This is this is new from the text. message. Uh 3 hours ago, there was an. uh there was an officer with a canine. walking nearby the area, hoping that. pooch has a bad sniffer. I mean, the. there are reports that the there was a. bomb sniffing dog or, you know, gunpowder and he did not alert. Uh, and. here's Tyler Robinson saying that I I'm.

wishing I had circled back and grabbed. it as soon as I got to my vehicle. because it sounds like the police. couldn't get in for a long while because. of the traffic. Needless to say, I'mma. be late coming home, my bee. And his. response is, just stay safe. That's. That's Lance. I will, says Tyler. I'm. more worried about what my old man would. do if I didn't bring back grandpa's. rifle. He's far scarier than any fed. Not going to lie. Guess I'm just sitting. in my car watching reals for another. hour, hoping this guy off. And. then Lance, are you okay still? I mean,

this is not like somebody who sounds. like he's going to call law enforcement. And indeed, he didn't call law. enforcement, >> right? But it doesn't mean he's. committing a crime, right? He he he was. being sympathetic to his lover and he. was trying to support him and he. shouldn't win any nice guy awards. He's. not going to win any good Samaritan. awards. But to me, I still lean more. towards Mark's side that Twigs probably. had little or nothing to do with this.

And I did think what he said on the. stand was credible. So that's my take of. it. >> I don't know. as I'm sitting if I'm. sitting next to Doug and he's engraving. bullets, >> I'm going to know what's on them. I I. mean, I'm just going to put myself out. there right now and say I. >> If Dear Doug ever got to a point where. he's engraving bullets, he will go to. great lengths not to let you know what. he's doing. >> That's true. >> That's true. >> Dear Doug does not engrave bullets. He. doesn't do anything with bullets and one. of the many reasons I love him though.

Using firearms for lawful purposes is. fine, guys. Thank you. What a day. More. tomorrow. [music]. We'll be back then.