The DEFINITIVE Deep Dive on Every Michael Jackson Allegation From 1993, 2003, and 2013

Hey everyone, I'm Megan Kelly. Welcome. to the Megan Kelly's show. Michael. Jackson was once one of the biggest. stars on the planet. Virtually everybody. to this day knows who he was, whether. they were alive when he was or not. If. you're of a certain age, you hear a song. of his and it transports you back in. time immediately and likely with some. foot tapping and some body jamming. It's. just fun music that tends to be upbeat. and great to listen to. It once again is at the top of the. charts um after the release of the hit.

and I do mean hit movie Michael starring. his own nephew Jaafar Jackson uh as him. He worked for 2 years to learn the dance. moves and to get the singing just right. and ultimately uh his dad Jermaine, who's an executive producer, cast him in. the movie or or at least approved of it. and it was not nepotism. Maybe it wasn't. nepotism, but it was a great choice. because if you watch the movie. this young Jaafar, who's I think 27. years old or so,

nails it. I mean, my gosh, he's got. Michael to a T. Um. the fans are packing the theaters. I. mean, it's it's the biggest hit we've. seen in a long, long time that doesn't. have a superhero in it. And in some. cases, the audience reportedly standing. up and cheering at the end of these. things. They're turning into like mini. dance parties in places. There's a scene. in this movie where Michael defies his. very abusive father Joe Jackson and. begins his solo career. Just watch one.

audience's reaction to that. >> [cheering]. >> It's crazy. I have to say that Jaafar Jackson is. very charming, too. There's something. sweet about his face. and uh. it kind of reminds you of the early. Michael Jackson before he'd had all that.

work done and got to be very freaky. looking. They go there, too, in the in. the film eventually. Um but the point is. that cultural moments like these, they. they just don't have happen that often. anymore. You know, it's not like the. 1990s when we're all watching Friends. together and you had to like talk about. what was on the latest Seinfeld around. the water cooler, even like Letterman, you know, like. there were certain things we all did, we. all watched, and everyone had to talk. about them, and it was something that. bonded us, and this movie is starting to. do that. I mean, it's expected to make a.

billion dollars. It's up to 800 million. already. I mean, think about that. It's. up to 800 million. in a month. And it only tells like the first, you know, 60% of Michael Jackson's life, and the remaining 40 is left off. Um it. came quickly, but nothing about the. abuse scandal, etc. And now next week, Netflix is going to get on in on the. action, too. They're no dopes. Netflix is going to release a three-part. series on his 2005 criminal trial, the.

only criminal trial he faced, featuring. jurors, courtroom insiders, reporters, and witnesses. And that's certainly. going to have a different feel from this. movie, which featured nothing. Nothing about the multiple allegations. against Michael Jackson. And there's a reason for that. Basically, it occurred to them after they had. reportedly shot some scenes taking on. the abuse allegations that they had. signed settlement agreements.

with the whatever young men were. depicted in film agreeing never to speak. of them. And the estate is bound by those. agreements, so they had to lob off the. last quarter of the movie, and most have agreed that that was. actually the greatest thing that ever. happened to this movie because it allows. you to just feel good about. this other version of Michael Jackson. that we all came to know and love. And. the music, you know, it's fun. It makes. you feel good and you're proud of him. You know, it's. he's like a like a Steve Jobs character. American-born, American-raised who goes.

on to do something to change the world. You know, Michael did that with his. music and his dancing, Steve Jobs with. the iPhone, but Bill Gates, we could. keep going, but that's how. many of us fell in love with Michael and. want to remember him. And so the movie kind of benefits from. the fact that they they didn't even go. there. Well, it's it's more complicated than that, unfortunately. That's the reality. And we're already being told that. they're going to release a part two of. this movie. I would and they said.

relatively soon. So like at some point they're going to. have to address it and I'm sure they're. going to whitewash it. I guess I shouldn't say that. I don't. know that they're going to whitewash it. I think they think they've got the. better end of the arguments. So, we'll see what they do. But we here on the show are very into. this story because everybody wants to. know. All these years after his death, uh which was 2009, people still ask each. other when when the news comes up, did. he or didn't he?

What do you think? You know, everybody. what we've covered on on this show, everybody said, "Well, was he or wasn't. he?" They they want to know. And I think for some. they want to know because it will help. make them make a decision about how they. feel about his music. Like, can you. enjoy the art and not the artist? Um is it forgivable? Pedophilia against God knows how many. kids? Okay. So, you want to know. And here on the show. we're. we're going to try to get as close to.

truth as we can. And we're very, very. committed to bringing both sides. Now, we recently had on Mark Geragos. He. was Michael Jackson's attorney for a. time and we both discussed. how we have some strong concerns about. whether a couple of these accusers are. credible. The stories they're telling, whether they're credible, and in. particular in that so-called documentary. that was done called Leaving Neverland, whether the filmmaker did the audience a. disservice by not raising.

the very clear credibility questions. of the two witnesses who were the main. players in that movie. Um. the problem for this story in making up. your mind is that. everyone who has publicly accused. Michael Jackson, everyone, save for the. last four who just came out the the. Cascio family like a month ago, cuz we just haven't really no one's. really looked into them, but everyone has serious credibility. problems. And everyone, including those four.

Cascios, has had their hand out for. money, which makes it. additionally complicated. Okay? So, Geragos and I talked all about it, and. you know, we we were both torn cuz he. had also interviewed the Cascios. It. seemed to me, though he didn't say so, that they'd considered hiring him. uh potentially for a civil suit, and it. didn't go that way, but he he even said. they my god, they seem so sincere and. authentic and, you know, suggested that would've been a tough. case. But, okay.

Here's the thing. Before you can present the defense. in any way or ask yourself if you. believe or disbelieve the witnesses who. have come forward against Michael, you got to look at what those witnesses. are saying. And I don't I've never felt comfortable. just re-airing the claims of Safechuck. and Robson. Those are the two guys. featured in Leaving Neverland, the. so-called documentary. It's not a. documentary. It's not. Um. I've never felt comfortable just. slapping them on the air because I do. know that there are a lot of things that.

undermine their stories. And and yet I. haven't found the credible presentation. of the case against Michael Jackson. in a way that's that lends itself to. narrative form for the like the show. that we're doing now. Until now. Until now, I read a very compelling, fascinating, deep dive on the. long-forgotten moments of the Jackson. investigations. The one in 1993, that.

was the one that first broke it open as. a story, this Jordie Chandler. And then. just about 10-plus years later. when Michael was criminally charged with. the sexually abusing a different boy. This is a little boy who had suffered. from cancer. And that's the only case that ever. actually got brought against him in the. criminal arena, and he beat the charges. The this piece, which is in Quillette, um it's by a guy named Andrew Hammel,

goes into great detail about how the. investigations first began, how. the search warrants were issued, what. the searches performed. as a result of the search warrants found. in Michael Jackson's bedroom. And I'm sorry, but it's we're going to. go through it, and it's disturbing. Now, this is not based on the credibility of. a witness who's looking for money. This. is. what did the police report finding in.

his bedroom? And our guest, Andrew Hammel, knows the. answer. Um the article is titled. Never, Neverland. The new Michael. Jackson bi- biopic and the campaign to. whitewash the King of Pop's reputation. You can read it in full on the news. website Quillette, [music] which I. recommend to you all. Um. the author of the piece, Andrew Hammel, joins me now. >> Don't miss a moment. Subscribe to this. show on YouTube and follow me on Insta,

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Andrew, thank you so much for being with. us. >> You're welcome. Glad to be here. >> What a what a piece. First of all, how. long did it take you to research this? >> Uh actually about 3 months, I would say. I'd watched Michael Jackson's trial in. 2005, or the coverage, and read it uh. because I'm a lawyer, and it interested. me because they had great lawyers on. both sides, and then uh Claire Lehmann, the editor of Quillette, asked me to. take a look at it given the new biopic,

and so I spent a lot of time really. intensively researching case. >> Okay, so had you been into the Michael. Jackson story or cases prior to that in. any meaningful way? >> Not really, not since 2005. >> Okay. Fair enough. So, this is kind of. how I came to it, too. I mean, I was a. Michael Jackson fan, like most people. I. heard about the allegations. I didn't. know what to make of them. And it wasn't. until that. again, air quotes documentary came out. in 2019 that sitting on my couch in.

between jobs, I too am a lawyer and. said, I actually would like to know. whether. this is real. Because when Oprah got on there and. really just kind of like put the period. at the end of the documentary and really. just went to the victim-y Oprah place. And again, she's supposed to be a. journalist without testing. I mean, I. think you or I just as lawyers would. have asked those two. at least a couple of pressing questions. Again, I. I don't want to beat up on these guys if. they were actually the survivors of. molestation. That's the last thing you. want to do, but you have an obligation.

in telling the story. you know, to to look at the other side. at least if you're going to call. yourself a documentary. So, you. decide to take a hard look at the whole. story. And am I correct that the very. first we. first first whiff we got of this was. Jordan Chandler. And how did that come. up and who was Jordan Chandler? >> Sure. So, Jordan Chandler was born in. 1980. and he first he actually met Michael.

Jackson in a restaurant sometime the. late 1980s, but just very fleetingly. because they lived in LA. and Jordan Chandler's father was Evan. Chandler who was he called himself a. dentist to the stars. So, he was dentist. in Los Angeles and his mother was June. Chandler. And in 2000, I believe it was. 1992, I'm sorry. Michael Jackson's car broke down in LA. and he pulled into a Rent-A-Wreck car.

rental agency and that Rent-A-Wreck. agency was actually run by David. Schwartz who was the new you know, the. new husband of June Chandler. So, Jordan. Chandler's stepfather. And so, an [clears throat] employee. there said, my god, we've got Michael. Jackson here. And you know, everyone. knew that Jordan Chandler was a huge. fan. So, David Schwartz called up Jordan. and said, you know, go meet your idol. And he leaped in a car and went out out.

there and, you know, they met and. Michael Jackson was very nice and they. exchanged phone numbers, contact. details. And then Jordie Chandler began. hanging out with Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson had already been hanging. out with prepubescent boys for years by. this time. You know, during the 1987. tour for his album Bad, uh he was. accompanied the entire time by an. Australian boy named Brett Barnes. So, it was known that, you know, Michael.

Jackson liked the company of young boys. So, Michael Jackson and Jordie Chandler. struck up a relationship. Michael. Jackson, of course, went first to Jordie. Chandler's mother, June. And, you know, he was extremely nice and. extremely helpful and and very gracious. and very complimentary and he sort of. inveigled himself into the family. And Evan Chandler, the father, found out. about this. He found out that Jordan.

Chandler had begun actually sleeping in. the same bed with Michael Jackson. With the approval of June Chandler, Jordie Chandler's mother. And so, Evan Chandler at first, and I. think it's appropriate to point out. that, you know, none of the accusers'. parents ever went to the police first. They all They all went to lawyers. They. all looked for money and settlements. first. And so, Evan Chandler finds out. that. he, you know, his son is sleeping in the.

same bed with Michael Jackson. and he goes to civil lawyers and they. refer Jordie Chandler to child. psychologists to determine whether, you. know, Jordie Chandler admitted to his. father in June of 1993, after a dental operation, that uh Michael Jackson had touched him. inappropriately and had performed sexual. acts on him. That's what Jordie Chandler. said to his father. And then Evan Chandler went to lawyers.

um, looking to hire the most aggressive. ones he possibly could. Those lawyers. referred Jordie Chandler, who was then. 13, to child psychiatrists who. interviewed him. and under California law at the time, they were mandatory reporters. They had. to report, you know, credible. accusations of child abuse to the. authorities. So, that started both a. civil lawsuit and a criminal. investigation of Michael Jackson. The civil lawsuit was.

filed uh, for $30 million. with accusations that Michael Jackson. fondled and masturbated. uh, and performed oral sex on Jordie. Chandler. And the criminal investigation resulted. in a search of Michael Jackson's body in. December of 1993. >> His body, of his body, you said. >> His body, yes. His genitals, his torso, his buttocks, because Jordie Chandler.

had told investigators that I can tell. you what Michael Jackson looks like. nude. And I can identify red spots on. his buttocks and a brown splotch on his. penis when it's in an erect state. And. Michael Jackson complained about this. loudly. You know, he he hired. satellite. time, 4 minutes of satellite time to. complain about this search. >> We actually have some of that. We have. some of that, Andrew, where he spoke out. about this in December of 1993,

upset about what had happened. I mean, it was under court order, so he really. had no choice, but here's a little bit. of that here in stop five. >> I have been forced to submit to a. dehumanizing. and humiliating examination by the Santa. Barbara County Sheriff Department and. the Los Angeles Police Department. earlier this week. They served a search warrant on me which. allowed them to view and photograph my. body including my penis, my buttocks, my lower torso, thighs, and.

any other area that they wanted. They were supposedly looking for any. discoloration, spotting, blotches, or. other evidence of a skin color disorder. called vitiligo, which I have previously. spoken about. The warrant further stated. that I had no right to refuse the. examination or photographs. And if I failed to cooperate with them, they would introduce that refusal at any. trial as an indication of my guilt. It was the most humiliating ordeal of my.

life. One that no person should ever have to. suffer. And even after experiencing the. indignity. of the search, the parties involved were still not. satisfied and wanted to take even more. pictures. It was a nightmare. A horrifying nightmare. But if this is what I have to endure to. prove my innocence, my complete innocence, so be it.

>> You point out in the piece and it's. true, Michael is wearing like very long. eyelashes, fake eyelashes in the piece. I mean, he's already looking bizarre. when he issues the statement in 1993. But yeah, there's a there's also an. effeminate thing to Michael uh that. that happened as he continued changing. himself. I said on on the air when we. covered the movie 2 weeks ago, you know, he's got the song. Black or White, right? And it's. Michael Jackson was neither black nor. white. Michael Jackson appealed to.

neither black nor white. He appealed to. everybody. Michael Jackson didn't seem. straight or gay. He almost. kind of seemed asexual. This discussion. is probing whether it was something even. when a far more disturbing than that. Um, he wasn't political. He was It was. just. one of the reasons he became such a huge. star is because he was nothing and. everything all at once. And here you see. he's like kind of neither male nor. female. You know, it's like you don't. know what he is exactly. But he was.

indignant for sure as a result of that. search. And Jordie. So so then what happened next? So the. police did the search of Michael. Jackson's body and then what happened? >> So they did the search of the body. They. also performed a search of. >> [clears throat]. >> his home his ranch in Neverland. Well, the ranch called Neverland which. was near Los Olivos, California in Santa. Barbara County. He bought that. ranch in 1988 and transformed it into an.

amusement park and invited children to. it and also lived there. So the police also searched his master. bedroom and his library at Neverland and. also his condominium in Los Angeles. And one of the. I think very very strange pieces of. evidence they found in 1993 during the. search of Neverland were two books. um that are actually even now extremely.

famous among. male pedophiles, adult male pedophiles. These books were published in the 1960s. One is called Boys Will Be Boys. The. other is called The Boy, A Photographic. Essay. And both books contain many pictures of. naked young boys with their genitals. exposed. These books were found in 1993. in a locked drawer of a file cabinet in.

Michael Jackson's master bedroom. One of. the books was inscribed from a fan from. Chicago in 1983. So, a fan in 1983 thought that Michael. Jackson would be interested in a book. filled with pictures of nude boys with. their genitals exposed. And Michael. Jackson wrote an inscription on the book. saying roughly, "Look at the joyful. playful freedom of young men. This is. what I never had and this is what I want.

for my children." So, we know Michael. Jackson received these books either as. gifts or one of them he may have. purchased and had them in his master. bedroom in a locked file drawer. And these books are important because. they came up in a later criminal trial. in 2005. Now, back in 1993, the negotiations for. a settlement went on. >> But, wait, wait, wait. Before we leave. the books, before because to me. the books. was That was huge. When I was I was. reading this piece, that was just a huge.

moment. It It was I don't want to say. game, set, match, but it's getting very. close. Um no. non-pedophile. has books. in a locked drawer in their bedroom with. naked pictures of little boys. Th- Th- There is zero legitimate purpose. for having such a thing. For clearly, it's He knew it was there. He has He had. written in one of them, celebrated it, and when I read who was behind the.

books, it was like, "Oh god." Because I spent. years on Fox News and this is back in. the day when O'Reilly was calling. attention to this thing called NAMBLA, the North American Man Boy Love. Association. And as soon as you got to. NAMBLA in your piece, my jaw dropped. That is a pedophile organization. Th-. They're trying to normalize pedophilia. There's, you know, man boy love. association. That's not a thing. That's. pedophilia. It's another word for. pedophilia. And what you wrote in the.

piece, I'm just going to read your. paragraph exactly. You write, "These books were particularly popular. with {quote} boy lovers worldwide." That. you put in quotes cuz that's what they. call themselves, since they could be. purchased legally in most Western. countries. But the two men responsible. for them were in fact pedophiles. George. St. Martin was the pseudonym of Martin. Swithenbank, a British photographer from. a prestigious family who had relocated. to the United States to study business. administration at Harvard on a Fulbright.

scholarship from 1950 to '52. In '78, he. co-founded NAMBLA. Um according to other accounts, you say. he was merely its trustee, and. contributed to its bulletin. In July of '81, he was convicted in a. New York court of sodomizing young boys. Forgive me, audience, for no viewer. warning here, but you you know it was. coming when we said Michael Jackson. And. sentenced to between 7 and 1/2 and 15. years in prison. Ronald C. Nelson was. the pseudonym of Ronald Drew, a New York.

teacher. This is on the other book. A. New York teacher indicted for. distributing pornographic images of. children in 1980. The 1993 Neverland. Hall also yielded a nude photograph of a. boy and another photograph of a boy. holding an umbrella and wearing only a. bikini bottom, which was partially. pulled down. That is just so devastating. I just I. I cannot think of any possible reason a. non-pedophile would have that material.

in his file is locked file in his. bedroom, Andrew. I have a real difficult. time getting past it. >> And so do I. And the the interesting. thing about these books is um. if you look at FBI statistics on. pedophiles, uh the ones who've been convicted and. there's no doubt of their guilt, only. 25% of them have explicit child. pornography.

because they know that that's illegal. and extremely dangerous and many avoid. it. But an an incredible amount have. literally these two books in their. collection because these books are. legal. They are considered to have. artistic merit and so you can buy and. sell them. If you want to buy one now, they cost over a thousand dollars and. you can only get them in private. auctions to pedophiles. >> So you do have to kind of out yourself.

>> Yeah, they So this is not the kind of, you know, just you can't find this book. in your local library uh and they. probably wouldn't stock it because it. contains extremely explicit photos of. young boys with their legs spread. exposing their pre-pubescent genitals. And although it's legal, it is clearly. the thing the kind of thing that, you. know, would be of interest to a very. specific clientele. And Michael Jackson. had these in his bedroom and inscribed. one of the books himself.

>> So. knowing that they had those books, that. the cops found those and that they were. in the possession of the prosecutors, I. mean, just as lawyers, you and I both. know. his legal team understood there was zero. chance he could go to trial on on that. case. I mean, like zero chance. And yet. he did 10 years later when he got. accused by the next child. he did go to trial on it. Like I don't. that's kind of where like I.

the whole thing confuses me, you know, cuz it's like. a lawyer would be saying, "Michael, you. are toast. Like cop a plea, do something. They're. going to introduce those books and the. jury is going to convict you.". And yet he wasn't convicted at that. trial. I don't know if these books came. in as evidence. It's possible they. didn't for some reason. They may have. been excluded as. too. unfairly prejudicial prejudicial. Do we. know? >> No, they did. They did come in.

>> My God, and they still acquitted him? >> But actually, that's not even the the. whole story. Not only did the books come. in, um the the prosecution also made a. motion under California evidence rule. 1108, which was passed in 1995 to make. it easier to convict uh child sexual. abuse cases. And that law said, you can. introduce other evidence of sexual. misconduct with children.

or any kind of sexual misconduct, even. if it didn't result in a conviction. And. so the jury found. >> audience cuz we've been following many. cases and we've been. we have been discussing on the show how. that same rule exists in New York State. It was passed after the Me Too movement. that you can allow in other women to. testify in a sexual harassment or abuse. case. That's how Harvey Weinstein got. convicted the first time, and then it. got overturned because the court of. appeal, which is our highest court in.

New York, said, "This is unfairly. prejudicial. You cannot have a parade of. witnesses who are not. identified victims in this case take the. stand." And now you can't do that. But. this same thing was in place in. California when it came to people. accused of child abuse child sexual. abuse. And so that did happen at Michael. Jackson's uh 2000. five trial. Okay, but wait, we're. getting ahead of ourselves cuz I did I. don't want to leave my a Jordy Chandler. and we'll get to the next case the. trial. But. you you were saying, "Okay, in addition.

to finding those books in his bedroom, and then you were going to give us a. meantime update on Jordy Chandler what. he was saying." I mean, one of the. things that jumped out at me from your. article was that Jackson was in regular. contact with June Chandler, Jordy's mom, and that at some point she found out. that he was sleeping with her son, like. in the same bedroom. They had he had they'd all been at. Neverland. He showered them with. compliments and gifts, you say. He took. them on a trip to Las Vegas.

Um and then after June Chandler went to. her bedroom with her daughter, Jordie. and Michael Jackson watched The Exorcist. together. >> [snorts]. >> And then Jackson invited invited the. frightened child to sleep with him. When. his mother June found out about this, you write, she put up some initial. resistance, to which Jackson responded. with tearful entreaty. So, tell us what. she. what she did and what. Michael Jackson did. as a result of her alleged upset in that. moment.

>> Sure. So, they were all staying in a. large luxury suite in a hotel in Las. Vegas. I believe it was the Mirage. And. June Chandler and her daughter Lilly. were sleeping in one bedroom. And they. went to sleep and then Michael Jackson. and Jordie Chandler watched The. Exorcist. Jordie Chandler was terrified. Michael. Jackson invited Jordie Chandler into his. bedroom and I believe his bed. And they slept together. Nothing. happened during that night. But June.

Chandler the next morning said, you. know, what's going on? You know, I. didn't sign up for this. And Michael. Jackson was crying and saying, we are a. family and we're all together. We must. trust each other. Nothing would ever. happen. I would never do anything. And. then June Chandler relented. And Michael. Jackson bought her Cartier bracelet. worth, you know, probably 20 or 30. thousand dollars. And from that time, as.

Jordie Chandler said in his interview. with a child psychiatrist, you know, Michael Jackson got my mother to agree. to let us sleep in the same bed and And. were in the same bed together until the. end of our relationship. >> For the price of a Cartier bracelet. >> Yes, and even some other pieces of. jewelry, too. So, June. it's not a surprise that after all the. legal events of 2004 settled, Jordie. Chandler sued to be emancipated from his.

parents at the age of 15, both of his. parents, and that was granted because he. claimed in court they were not properly. taking care of him, and the judge. agreed. >> And honestly, if you look back on this. story. and you believe that Michael Jackson is. a pedophile, was a pedophile, shame on that that set of parents. because. had they actually, if we're if we're in. the lane of this is true, he did it, had.

they actually just dealt with the. police, conducted a criminal case, or. pushed all their resources into a. criminal case, not a money grab, who. knows who how many boys could have been. saved in the future. But they didn't, they went civil. Michael actually didn't play pay right. away. He was like, "No, I'm not paying. this." He resisted, and that is one of. the reasons why many of his supporters. say. he didn't react like a panicked person.

who was guilty. You know, he reacted. like, "Who are you grifters? No, I'm. definitely not giving over a bunch of. money. This is outrageous.". And ultimately though, he did settle for. a. >> reported $20 million. They couldn't make a criminal case. because you tell me what happened after. he he did that payout. >> Sure, the payout occurred the settlement. occurred in January of 1994. It was. negotiated hard by lawyers on both. sides, and the ultimate amount, we don't.

know the exact ultimate amount, but we. know that $15,300,000. was paid to Jordie Chandler in a trust. account and about 1 to 2 million dollars. to his parents. And that the terms of. that settlement say Jordie Chandler can. never say anything negative about. Michael Jackson. ever, anywhere. And Michael Jackson. cannot mention Jordie Chandler ever for. any reason, which is why the Michael. biopic that's currently being released. had to be cut. And after the settlement.

came, now, you know, the Santa Barbara. and Los Angeles district attorneys were. investigating Michael Jackson still in. 1994. But Jordie Chandler indicated to. them that he would not willingly testify. against Michael Jackson. And so they convened. >> have needed a subpoena, and you can only. get that if the person's in the. jurisdiction. I mean, the truth is that. even a settlement or a non-disclosure. agreement can be overridden by a um.

by a demand in a criminal case um. potentially or by government officials. that you testify, that kind of thing. Like you your non-disclosure obligation. from a settlement agreement would be. vitiated, and you would you would not. have to give back the money. But that's. a separate matter from whether they can. actually get a subpoena on you to force. you to appear. And generally, you have. to be within the jurisdiction, and he. wasn't. And he actually threatened to. leave the country altogether if they. wanted to try to wrangle him in by. subpoena. And then, as a prosecutor, you're like, "Okay, even if I were going to go going to go.

do all that, I have this extremely. reluctant witness. What am I going to. get? I'm I'm not going to get what I. want." So, they they decided not to. pursue the criminal charges in '93 on. the Jordie Chandler allegations. >> That's true. And actually, in in 1990. uh Jordie Chandler did say in 2005. during the criminal trial, "I'll flee. the country to avoid a subpoena." In. 1994, >> Exactly. He was he was still there, and. he could have been subpoenaed. Um but he.

he indicated that he would not cooperate. and you know it of course the subpoena. can overrule a civil settlement but he. strongly indicated I'm not going to. cooperate I don't want any part of this. and so the prosecution would have had to. call a reluctant witness that that and. they had no idea what he might say. And it's also important to understand. that. we don't really understand what Jordie. Chandler's attitude toward Michael. Jackson was at this time.

Maybe he originally told his father. Michael Jackson abused me. He also said. "Daddy, please don't hurt Michael. Don't go public with this because that. will be really bad for Michael and I. don't want anything bad to happen to. him. He's a sweet and kind person. I. don't agree with what he did to me but I. don't want to destroy his career." So we. don't know exactly what Jordie Chandler. thought but he might have. still had very fun feelings to Michael. Jackson and who knows what he might have.

said under anesthesia. >> That Michael never touched him and that. he uh you know. his defense was always that I'm a child. I hang out with children there's nothing. wrong what could be a nicer expression. of friendship and love than sleeping in. the same bed. You know I mean. two young girls having having been a. a tween and teen girl you you'd sleep in. the same bed as a girlfriend any any. time like that's not unusual for two. like 10 year olds who are having a. sleepover. Um a a 30 year old man with a.

10 year old boy is a very different. scenario and should never be allowed. It. just shouldn't be. But anyway um. so it's possible that Jordie Chandler. never accused Michael Jackson and told. the dentist father he didn't and the. dentist father. came up with this story that no no. Jordie said he did. You told me Jordie. right after I gave you the anesthetic. for your dental work you told me that he. did and now you know there's a big. dispute and it's possible that the. parents manipulated him either to make. false allegations or that they were the.

making the false allegations because. it seems pretty clear the parents are. disgusting. The mother's disgusting. I'm willing to. say it. And this father seemed very. focused on getting a payout from the. moment the idea occurred to him either. because his child made an allegation or. because he just got the idea. And I. think that was also part of the. prosecutor's. calculation. You know, like. Okay, the boy is not going to testify. Are the parents credible? Do I like my. witnesses? Like how is that going to. play? And it was very clear that they.

were not going to play well. And so in. that from that standpoint, they did the. right thing uh the prosecutors cuz, you. know, you can't go through all this only. to have it fall apart. Just ask the ones. who brought the case in 2005 where. they had yet another terrible mother. who took the stand and sank the whole. case. >> Hey, thanks for watching today's full. episode. If you're new here, throw us a. subscribe. See what you think. Stay in.

touch. There's plenty more goodness. where this one came from. As always, we. really do value your feedback. So, email. me, too. Megan, m e g y n at. megankelly.com or just leave a comment. down below. I do read them. I meander. over and I scroll through and I find. them very entertaining and really. appreciate the feedback. But in any. event, join the community by becoming a. subscriber so you miss nothing. We value. your support. We may not always agree on. positions, but as you know, I'm very. open-minded to people who disagree with. me. That's how I learn. So, thanks. And.

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insurance at selectquote.com/megyn. today to get started. He pays Jordie Chandler that money. They go away. [music] The family goes. away. And now we have a. 12-year period from '93 to 2005. And the next big thing would be the. criminal charges um for another for. another boy. Um but. what happened in between that time, Andrew? Like. was was the.

pedophilia thing quiet? Did no other. boys come forward? Do we know what was. going on? >> Well, during that time from uh 1994 to. 2005, there was a sort of a concerted. effort to try to repair Jackson's. reputation. So, in 1994, he married Lisa. Marie Presley. And in uh. uh I think the Dominican [clears throat]. >> for a second. Forgive me. Forgive me. Cuz I love to do it linearly. I think. the audience gets it better. So, right. before Lisa Marie, and and while this whole night nightmare.

with Jordie was about to wrap up or in. the process of go of going there, um. Michael's sister LaToya came out and. stuck the knife in. And as far as I know, she's the only. family member who's done this. But, she she stuck the knife in and. twisted it, and here is what she said. She was in Tel Aviv for a concert sought. for. >> I must tell you that um this is very. difficult for me. That Michael is my brother.

I love him a great deal. But I cannot and I will not be a silent. collaborator of his crimes against small. innocent children. And if I remain silent. then that means that I feel the guilt. and humiliation that these children are. feeling, and I think it's very wrong. I. have seen checks payable to the parents. of these children. And I don't know if these children were. apparently bought. the parents by Michael or not, but I.

have seen these checks, and I've seen. these checks through my mother. She's. shown me these checks that Michael had. written to these children, and it's for. a great amount, and I'm not speaking. pennies. The sums are very very large. amounts, and this is my first time. talking about it, and I never want to. speak about it. I never want to say. anything about it, but I think it's sad. because I am a victim myself, and I know. what it feels like, and these kids are. going to be scarred for the rest of. their life, and I don't want to see any. more innocent small children being. affected this way.

>> Very damning. But it didn't stand. She wound up taking. it back, Andrew. >> Yes, that's true. I think that interview. was given in 1993, and uh it was very damning. It was. reported worldwide. And uh she also said in a book she. published in 1991, uh she described that, you know, the the. Jackson family matriarch, Katherine, was. extremely displeased with Michael's.

behavior when they were living in the. same home in Encino, California, and she. called him, you know, a an anti-gay. slur, and she showed La Toya these. checks. Now, later La Toya took it all. back. And she said that when she made. these statements, she was under the. influence of her abusive ex-husband, who. actually was almost certainly abusing. her at the time, and that none of what. she said was true. Uh she at the time she said, "I can. prove evidence, you know, I can provide.

evidence Michael Jackson abused kids for. $500,000. to a tabloid, but you know, they. inquired and she didn't have any. evidence of that. So, she took it all. back, but still, you know, it took a lot to repair her ties with. her family after her coming out and. saying that. >> And also, one other question on the. Jordie Chandler case before we move. forward. The search warrant and the pictures of. Michael's genitals and his body, they were looking for something in.

particular to see if it matched up with. the description, I guess they got from. Jordie. There appears to have been some. sort of a birthmark on Michael Jackson's. penis, like some sort of dark spot. I. don't know if it was a birthmark or it. was the vitiligo, which makes, you know, your skin darker in some places and. whiter in other places. And what did Jordie Chandler accurately. say that that existed? Like, how did. that whole match up go? Do we know? >> Yeah, that is still to this day.

extremely controversial, as with almost. everything in this case. Uh Jordie Chandler gave a description to. police. um about Jackson's torso and genitals, and he claimed that underneath Jackson's. uh penis, which is, you know, you could. only see this in an erect state, there. was a dark splotch, possibly caused by, you know, uh you know, maybe vitiligo. had affected other parts of the. genitals, and this was unaffected. And.

according to law enforcement officers, you know, when Jackson was photographed, he he made a big stink about it. He was. extremely upset. And he also had his own. photo photographers there also taking. pictures. These photographs have never. been released. And that is why there's a. debate until this day. Law enforcement. officers say that, you know, they have. seen the photographs and the photographs. were consistent with what Jordie. Chandler said. However, to be fair,

Jordie Chandler also said that Michael. Jackson had a circumcised penis. And at his autopsy in 2009, the coroner. said his penis appears uncircumcised. So, we still do not have full clarity. about whether Jordie Jack Jordie. Chandler's descriptions were accurate, but law enforcement officers have said. they were. And there's may Many people. think that that was one reason that uh. Jackson settled. Now, in Jackson had his.

own photographs taken. He has never. released those. He has never asked for. the sealed photographs to be released. during his lifetime. So, unfortunately, we'll never know the truth, but, you. know, law enforcement officers say it. did match generally. >> Mhm. Okay. So, now we're back to Jordie. and family go away. Now we're in this. period from '94 to 2004 or five when he. goes on trial. What's happening?

>> What's happening is uh first, I mean, damage control. So, uh. there was the marriage to Lisa Marie. Presley, which lasted 2 years from 1994. to 1996. It's pretty well. documented that they didn't stay. together very much at all. And uh I believe she had her own home. for most of the marriage and it. dissolved in 1996. Jackson also released. an album during this time in which he. attacked.

>> bit a minute on Lisa Marie. Because she was asked by. Oprah, "Did you consummate the marriage?". And um. it was one of those like famous moments. where Lisa Marie was like, "Oprah!" And. Oprah kind of shamed her audience who. were like oohing and ahing, saying, "You. know you want to know the answer, too.". And she was not wrong. >> I have to ask you [music] this. Was it a. consummated. marriage Oh my god, Oprah! I have to ask. that question.

What? And you all know damn well you want to. know. >> [applause]. >> I mean, it was a real marriage, like. between a husband and wife. It was a. consummated marriage. It was. Okay, that's all. >> She gave a couple of interviews and she. ultimately revealed that her mother, Priscilla Presley, had urged her not to marry him, saying, "You're being used. He's being accused. of molesting a little boy, and he's.

using you to make himself look like a. straight, normal. guy. So, don't do this.". But Lisa Marie did marry him. They had a. lot in common because they both grown up. with no childhoods, like a completely. under the scrutiny and glare of the. bright lights and the media, which gave. neither one of them a moment's peace. Lisa Marie, through no fault of her own. Michael, originally through no fault of. his own, his dad made him become the. star, but eventually he chose it.

And um it does seem that they developed. actually a very close friendship, though. it didn't look anything like a marriage. to most people. Um I think Lisa Marie would later say. that they did consummate the marriage or. that they at least had had sex. in the course of the marriage, but who. knows? It seems like they were really. just more friends. And um here's a. little bit of the two of them at the MTV. Video Music Awards. Uh this is the opening of September. 1994. Here it is, they walk out together. So,

at 11. >> Please welcome Mr. and Mrs. Michael. Jackson. >> [cheering]. >> Welcome. to the MTV Video Music Awards. >> [cheering]. [applause]. >> I'm very happy to be here. And just think, nobody thought this.

would last. >> [applause]. [cheering]. >> They're kissing. >> [screaming]. >> And yeah, she said it was a complete. marriage. Yes, it was a complete. marriage. So, that happened, and it. didn't last, actually, Andrew. >> No, it only lasted 2 years, and there.

were no children as a result of the. marriage. >> Yes, it's amazing [clears throat] though. when you see that beautiful face looking. exactly like Elvis, right? It's like. she Lisa Marie was the spitting image of. her. equally famous dad. I mean, it's it's. tough to say that Elvis was more famous. than Michael Jackson. It's like, has. anyone been more famous than Michael. Jackson? Like, who's ever the most. famous, like Princess Diana, Elvis, the. Beatles, he's tied, at least. Here's.

just one more, Norm Macdonald. You know, one of the greatest social commentators. and political commentators to have lived. in the modern era, just underappreciated. while he was alive, but it posthumously. has been celebrated many times by new. fans. Um there he was on Saturday Night. Live in 1996 after the divorce was. announced with the following, so at 12. >> The nation is still from Thursday's. bombshell announcement that Lisa Marie. Presley has filed for divorce from. Michael Jackson. According to friends, the two were never a good match. She's.

more of a stay-at-home type and he's. more of a homosexual pedophile. >> So there's a little flavor of. the what the populace was doing, which is not buying it. They they did. not buy what he was trying to sell with. that kiss and with the marriage to Lisa. Marie. Sorry. Now, keep going. >> Sure. So after that marriage dissolved, uh Jackson also released an album in the. late '90s in which he attacked the.

prosecutor of Santa Barbara County, Tom. Sneddon, in a in a song that actually. had anti-Semitic lyrics, uh mentioning and Jews, which. >> Michael Michael did a song. with that? >> He did a song He did a song attacking. Tom Sneddon and the press. >> Oh, he's passing. >> And the lyrics to the Yeah, the the. lyrics to the song go, "Kick Kick me. me. Sue me. Jew me.".

And he had to apologize for this. Uh to you know, and he apologized in a. groveling fashion. Uh but you know, that that that was. something that really stunned me that. you know, >> Wait, he really got that pushed. swept under the carpet because. I mean, I guess you know, if you're. going to choose your. controversy, you'd probably choose like. I said something anti-Semitic over I. molested a bunch of little boys. So I I. I can see why the one drowned out the. other. But I was not even aware that he.

had done that. Um okay, so he's got He's. clearly bitter over his prosecutor. >> Yeah. And then he went on to marry a. woman called Debbie Rowe, who was a. medical assistant to his own uh. dermatologist. And they were married for a couple years. in the late 1990s and that marriage. produced two children. So Paris Jackson. and Prince Michael Jackson the first. And of course they're still around and. uh there's a frankly especially if you.

look at Paris Jackson. she looks like a Swedish bikini model. >> There's no way she is the biological. child of Michael Jackson. >> I don't think so at all. And I you know. Debbie Rowe has. of course everyone who had you know. close associations with Michael Jackson. has signed NDAs. and has also agreed to never really go. into detail. truthfully so we'll never know exactly. what happened in that marriage but that. marriage also collapsed.

after producing two children. and then in the early 2000s like in 2000. 2001 Jackson was really you know in the. doldrums career-wise. His latest album. hadn't really hit very well and you know. he had Pepsi had canceled their contract. with him and he was getting more and. more into debt. And so then he decided. on a really huge gamble. He invited a. British tabloid journalist to accompany.

him for eight months. uh just to make a documentary about his. ordinary private life. And that. documentary came out in 2002. and it was called Living with Michael. Jackson with Martin Bashir. And the documentary you can find it. online but it's hard to find it online. Lots of sources about Michael Jackson. exist only in like you can only find. this documentary in 10-minute long. YouTube clips from years ago. So you. know lawyers and fixers have definitely.

been trying to take care of it. >> Bury it. >> Because the documentary is incredibly. damning. I mean it shows Jackson at Neverland. Ranch and he goes buying expensive. things at the Fabergé store in Las. Vegas. He attempts to bottle-feed his child, Prince Michael Jackson the first, but. that doesn't go well. And he also this. is. >> we have that. Let me show that. That's. shot seven. >> I love you. >> Here he is. >> But let me.

Here's the [laughter] bottle. Wait, wait. Here's the bottle. >> It's okay. Just get this off of. >> Oh, oh, [laughter] please don't drop. blanket. >> [screaming]. >> Blanket. Blanket. Okay. Okay. Here we Abu. Abu. Abu. >> [crying]. >> Yes. Abu. Blanket. Blanket. Blanket. Blanket. Blanket. I love you, blanket. Yes. Yes. Yes. I love you. I love my children very. much. >> Why would I put a scarf over the baby's. face if I was trying to throw him off. the balcony? We were waiting to. thousands of fans down below, and they.

were chanting they want to see my child. So, I was kind enough to let them see. I was doing something out of innocence. Thank you. >> All right. No worries. >> Jackson's behavior was beginning to. alarm me. >> I It It looks like he has never. encountered a baby before in his life, never mind held or fed one. That was. shocking. >> And that's also the baby that he held.

over the balcony of the Hotel Adlon in. Berlin to cheering fans, uh which also caused a lot of, you know, frankly, horror and anguish among. observers. >> It was so strange that the the crowd. down below was cheering him, just like. we've seen them do, like the famous. Marilyn Monroe moment, only Michael had. his baby and decided, rather than just. like even kind of gesturing, here's my. baby, to literally put him on the. opposite side of the railing of a.

balcony. I mean, it just like. I. It's I don't even know what to say, but. I remember that moment because it went. everywhere. Then this was the cleanup he. tried to do with Martin Bashir where he. he doesn't He's got the kid for for. listeners. covered in a um like a a green veil, like a green scarf, allegedly so he. can't see the baby's face. Well, you can. see right through it and you can see. what the baby looks like anyway. The. baby hates the veil, not surprisingly, especially when he's trying to get his. bottle, and Michael can't get it in his. mouth and doesn't look like he's.

familiar with babies or with his baby or. comfortable. Poor Martin Bashir, who. must have been a father. I mean, just. the way he he like jumps in and is. basically like, "Please stop torturing. that baby.". This is awful. If you are listening to. this show, I urge you to go to our show. about an hour in and look at this video. My god, go on YouTube. and check this out. Good gracious. So, the Martin Bashir. uh interview. didn't go well. I think we have one more.

from. that exchange. Yeah, okay. Is it sa- Okay, here's sat eight, a. little bit more. Watch. >> How do you write a song? How do you write a song? >> How do I write a song? Well, >> If I sat down with this piano and you. didn't try What would happen? >> If I sat here and played some chords, whatever, and say, "I'm going to write. the best song ever written," nothing. happens. Something in the heavens has to. say, "Look, this is the time that this.

is going to be laid on you and this is. when I want you to have it." Now, I. remember when I when I wrote Billie. Jean, I was riding in my uh car down. Ventura Boulevard. All I said to myself. beforehand, "I want to write a song with. a great bass hook, you know.". And um. >> [clears throat]. >> um. And I just let it go, really. And then. several days later, you know, ah um ah. um do. do ah um ah um do. you know, the whole thing. >> that come from? >> From above.

>> So, that's just another flavor from the. documentary. You got to know him, the. good and the bad. Like, okay, yeah, that's the kind of thing we're tuning in. for. Tell us How did Billie Jean come. about? You know, it's like um. I've had these conversations with Richie. Sambora of Bon Jovi, and they're. fascinating. Like, how did that rhythm. come to you? Like, where were you when. "Wanted Dead or Alive" popped into your. head? And he can tell you that story. And yet, we had. a lot of the dark moments, too, last. week or when we aired this.

right after the movie. We played the, you know, the sound bite. where he tried to defend what could be. more natural than sleeping in in the bed. together with a little boy. It's loving. It's the most loving thing you could do. Which would haunt him for the rest of. his life. And then here's a little bit. where he was filmed with Gavin Arvizo. And this would be the next boy to accuse. him. publicly. The The Bashir thing was what, 2000. 2, 2000, right around there?

>> 2, I think. Yeah. >> 2003? [clears throat]. Okay, 3. And the criminal charges. against him would be filed in 2005 by. this as a result of this boy who he. features. He's 12 years old. He's a. cancer survivor. And he chooses to expose Martin Bashir. to this boy, Gavin Arvizo, in the documentary. >> That. >> When people hear that. children from other families have come. and they've stayed in your house, they've stayed in your bedroom,

>> Well, very few. >> But, you know, some have. And they say, >> Holding hands. >> "Is that really appropriate for a man, a. grown man, to be doing that?" How do you. respond to that? >> I feel sorry for them because they're. judging someone who's wants to really. help people. Why can't you share your. bed? But the most loving thing to do is to. share your bed with someone. You know? >> You really do you that? >> Yeah. >> But haven't you got a spare room or a. spare house here where he could have.

stayed? >> Yeah, but no. Yes, I have We have guest. units, but whenever kids come here, they. always want to stay with me. >> And and it Gavin's head is resting on. Michael's shoulder. while he's saying that. Like he they. look like. like lovers or. you could put it an innocent explanation. on it and say, you know, your own child. might lean on you like that. You know, especially if you were under some sort. of stress or attack. Like they might.

lean on on you like that, but this was. not his child. This was somebody else's. child, and this child would accuse him. of molestation [music] within 24 months. What does it feel like when your clothes. actually feel good? This spring, Cozy. Earth makes the case that what you wear. at home matters just as much as what you. wear out of the house, and maybe even. more. Let me tell you about the brushed. bamboo jogger set. Made from viscose. from bamboo, it's lightweight, breathable, and unbelievably soft with. enough structure to feel put together.

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it's had stage four cancer and was. right near death. And miraculously, he. recovered and fortunately, he's alive. right now. Uh his mother is named Janet Arvizo and. Gavin had two siblings, Star, a brother, and Davelin, a sister. And uh they. appeared in the Bashir documentary and. Jackson was very close to the family. As. always with families, he showered them. with gifts and, you know, attention and.

uh you know, I think he I'm certain he. paid for parts of uh Gavin's medical. treatment, was very generous, and. invited them to Neverland, etc. Uh and at this point, you know, when the. Bashir documentary was made, uh Uh. there was no there were no accusations. of abuse uh between um. Gavin Arvizo and uh and Michael Jackson. But then after the Bashir documentary. came out, the Jackson camp went into. damage control and they invited the.

family up to Neverland to to create a. rebuttal video uh in which the family. was supposed to give long interviews. praising Michael Jackson and saying. nothing happened, everything was fine. Now, these interviews were never aired. The rebuttal video was aired with. outtakes of the Martin Bashir. documentary that showed Jackson in a. more positive light. Um but allegedly. during the time that Gavin Arvizo and. the Arvizo family were at Neverland. doing the rebuttal video, that is when.

Gavin Arvizo alleged that Michael. Jackson sexually abused him. Arvizo. alleged at the 2005 trial that Michael. Jackson had given him wine, which. Jackson called Jesus juice uh and other. you know, James Safechuck also says. Michael Jackson gave him wine. Uh Gavin. Arvizo also said that Michael Jackson. had shown him pornogra- pornography to. get him aroused. And uh in fact, Gavin Arvizo's. fingerprints were found on copies of um.

Hustler, Barely Legal, Hardcore. So, his. fingerprints and Michael Jackson's. fingerprints were both found on an issue. of that magazine. And and so, Gavin Arvizo once again. Gavin Arvizo's uh allegations were not. given immediately to the police. He went. to a child psychiatrist and the. psychiatrist reported the potential. abuse. And then the two then that that's. what started the uh ultimate 2005 trial.

rolling. And there was another search of. Jackson's uh home and apartments in LA. and they found. yet more legal. nude child erotica. uh and also explicit adult homosexual. pornography and explicit adult. heterosexual pornography, a lot of it. And also porno DVDs and much of it was.

in Michael Jackson's master bedroom, which he shared with children and it was. accessible to them. Perhaps not laying out, but you know, in. bookcases or in drawers. And that also. became a part of the 2005 trial. So, Gavin Arvizo accused Michael Jackson of. abusing sexually abusing him during the. filming of the rebuttal video and that's. what led to the 2005 trial. >> Mhm. And there's other testimony around this.

same time. I don't know if it was at the. trial, but. about how now in the corridor leading to. Michael's bedroom they've added all this. these security alarms like basically. down at 25 yd hallway, like lights will. go off and alarms will sound if you get. anywhere near Michael's bedroom, which. has some six locks on it including. deadbolts, multiple deadbolts. Now. I mean, I understand as a public figure.

you do need to feel safe in your. bedroom. So, like there's that defense. there, but that sounds like a lot. So, there is a question about whether. that was there so that he could have a. warning if anybody was coming and there. have been over the years a bunch of. security guards and maids and other. servants who have worked at Neverland. who have come out to say. he was doing it. Like I never saw him. actually molesting somebody, but I saw. him in his bedroom or I had to clean his.

bedroom with like incriminating. underwear, you know, boys underwear. Um. or you know, I saw him pick up young. boys and you know, take him home to his. bedroom, not like strangers, but like. testimonies like that. But in every. case, again, they were money grabs. They These people. wanted money. They either either sued. Michael for money, or they took big. tabloid payments to say these things. This is the thing that's so infuriating. about this case, Andrew, right? It's. like. everybody had their hand out. All of the.

All All I want is one. wit- the the The few witnesses who have. come forward who didn't take money. defend Michael. Like Macaulay Culkin, um, like Brett Barnes. They defend They. have never taken a dime, and they defend. Michael. I want one person who has. not. taken money. who comes out to say, "This is real. He did it to me, and I. don't want a dime. Just want you to know.

this is real." That That That would make. it so much easier, you know? But like, the fact that all these accusers took. money is just so despicable in my in my. view. I just They They've They've. muddied the waters. Anyway, back to you. >> Yeah, that is That's the argument won. the trial in 2005. So, Michael Jackson's. lawyer, Tom Mesereau, veteran criminal. defense attorney, extremely good lawyer, uh, he cross-examined all of these. They. were all allowed uh, to to testify as. sort of like pattern and propensity.

evidence to show that Michael Jackson. had a tendency to abuse young boys. But. Mesereau tore them all apart in. cross-examination, and the argument that he consistently. made is, "If you really saw a child. being abused with your own eyes by. Michael Jackson, as you claim, or something that, you. know, that's extremely incriminating, why didn't you just immediately go to. the police?". And they didn't have a good answer for. that. And they all had to admit they'd. taken tabloid money, they had threatened.

to sue Michael Jackson. Many of them. were disgruntled employees who had been. fired for cause, as Mesereau was able to. show. And so, the attempt to show this. broad pattern fell apart because. basically every one of the accusers had. their hand out or had a grudge or had. changed their story. And so, uh that is uh you know, that I I've said. in the article that I think the jury's. verdict was was reasonable. They could.

have gone the other way, but acquittal. was appropriate under the circumstances. because the there are so many holes in. the prosecution's case because of these. witnesses. >> Yeah. Here is um Tom Mesereau in 2019 uh. speaking about the Jackson case. So, 21. >> Do you think he's remotely or could have. been remotely capable of doing any of. those things? >> The things he's been accused of doing? Absolutely not. I am 100% convinced.

Michael never abused a child, never. harmed a child, certainly never molested. a child. I think this is hogwash. >> Do you think if he was still alive, do. you think these people would now be. coming out and saying the same thing, that he molested me? >> I just don't know. I mean, I think uh I. have to believe these are financially. motivated accusations. I have to believe. that. Because how else can you explain. it? Um I take that into account, too. But I. personally am not involved in their.

civil lawsuits. I've not represented. anybody in them. I've not been present. for any of the proceedings. I don't know. who said what in those cases. I just. know the evidence that I saw. And that leads me to a very powerful. conclusion that Michael Jackson never. abused a child at any time, never tried. to hurt a child. We had testimony in the. trial that he said he would slit his. wrists before he would hurt a child. >> Mhm. So, okay, that's Mesereau. He believes.

his client. But, in that trial, while he did a very. good job defending Michael Jackson, it. was the cross-examination of. of the mother. of the victim, the alleged victim, who. sunk the case. So, she sunk the case. So, what what was so. bad about the mother's testimony, Andrew? Like, why did she do so poorly? >> Well, I believe she was on the stand for. something like 5 days. Uh and the reason.

she was important is because the. prosecutor had sought to sort of like. upcharge the child molestation. allegations by also saying that Michael. Jackson and his employees had. essentially kidnapped the family and. forced them to stay at Neverland Ranch. to make these exculpatory interviews. And uh that was a bad mistake by the. prosecution because, you know, Janet. Arvizo took the stand, she snapped her. fingers at the jury, she lectured, she.

went on long rambling excursions, uh she had to be reprimanded by the. judge over and over, and you know, the the defense attorneys. kept pointing out, "You could have left. at any time. And, you know, you even left the ranch. and came back to it voluntarily because. you wanted the favors and you wanted the. free lodging and, you know, the. possibility gifts from Michael Jackson. You weren't kidnapped, you weren't held. against your will, and you she was also,

you know, she engaged in fraud, welfare. fraud, and perjury that she was. convicted of after the trial, but there. was already indications that she had. basically applied for welfare even. though she had already gotten a $150,000. judgment in a lawsuit against J.C. Penney. Um you know, allegedly one of the. security guards attacked her in the. parking lot. And she had all that money, the 150,000, and then she applied for.

welfare and got it, and concealed that. settlement, which she certainly did. And. uh so, she was completely non-credible, and Mesereau painted her as sort of a. grifting con artist willing to do. anything to extort money from the. Jackson estate. Now, it's true, she. didn't sue him before the criminal. trial, but as we both know, if had Michael. Jackson been convicted, then the civil. judgment against him would have been. just, you know, a matter of pure form. You know, she she could just sue him for.

civil damages and automatically win. because he'd already been convicted. >> I do feel the need to say that we see. this pattern often times, whether it's a. pedophile or a serial rapist of women or. harasser abuser, they these victimizers choose their. victims wisely. They don't usually choose somebody from. an intact home with a loving set of. present parents and financial means. You. know, they they look for someone who's.

vulnerable, who might be, you know, in a. difficult family situation, and whose. credibility. the family, as well, would be easy to. destroy. So, I I do feel the need to say. that because. is it possible he did that with these. families? Yes, it is. It's possible. It's one of the possibilities that's out. there. Um okay, so he wins that trial, and. we we go forward. Now, you point out in your piece that um. there's a journalist named Diane Diamond.

who worked for Hard Copy, and she's one of the people who busted. this case wide open to begin with. Uh. she busted it up open because she was. given, back in the '93 time frame, um a. police report about him allegedly being. a pedophile. And with the with the. admonition she said from somebody saying. I this can't keep happening as if. there had been multiple reports to. authorities of Jackson being a. pedophile. So, she's been on this for a. long time and she wrote um.

a postscript. to she wrote a book in 2005 but then she. updated it after that Neverland. documentary again in air quotes came out. and uh she wrote the following a highly. placed law enforcement source once. revealed to me the results of a forensic. deep dive into Jackson's financials. The. source said that that that examination. concluded that over the years leading up. to the 2005 criminal trial the. entertainer had dolled out about $200. million. of gifts and hush money to young boys.

and their families. This astonishing. figure you write appeared to be. confirmed by attorneys representing Wade. Robson and James Safechuck two of his. accusers featured in that Finding. Neverland or Leaving Neverland during. civil litigation against the Jackson. estate in 2015. $200 million if that's. true you say it's confirmed by. attorneys representing these two who. would have had access to those kinds of. numbers. Um it also does dovetail with what La. Toya said in her later retracted.

soundbite about her mother showing her. the checks that he'd written to multiple. families not just Jordie Chandler it. sounded like. Um and it would explain his financial. ruin because on the day he died the New. York Times the Daily just did a deep. dive into this. On the day he died that. his estate was valued at zero given all. the debt he was in and lack of income. because these allegations had taken. their toll. >> Yes, absolutely. That I mean we can't.

really of course we can't completely. verify the 200 million but we know that. at least 25 million is accounted for. because he paid the settlement to Jordan. Chandler and also to Blanca Francia, one. of his former maids, who accused him of. abusing her son, Jason Francia. He. settled that lawsuit for for about $2. million, over $2 million in the mid-1990s. And, you know, the other thing is that.

you know, we we all know how things work. in Los Angeles. If you're a lawyer, you. have fixers who, you know, when a demand. letter comes in from a potential. plaintiff, the fixers come around and. they make it go away. And if you have. hundreds of millions of dollars, you can. make a whole lot of things go away. before they even hit the airwaves. And. so, it's not just the, you know, hush. money payments and settlements and and. also gifts. He bought a house for. Jimmy's James Safechuck's family.

And, you know, he bought an incredible. amount of expensive bling. and incredibly expensive paintings and. artworks. Yeah, and so, he was broke at. the end of his life. And that's why. after he, you know, after 2005, he was really broke. He. couldn't pay his lawyers anymore and. that's when we almost had the. pro-pedophile documentary from the. makers of RuPaul's Drag Race. >> What?

>> Oh, this is Yeah, this that they had to. cut it out of the articles cuz the. article was already too long. But, in. 2000 in 19 the Okay, the guys who make. RuPaul's Drag Race, they're called. Fenton Bailey and they're now very. famous. They have a production company. called World of Wonder Productions. Now, in the late 1990s and early 2000s, they were making gay-themed. schlockumentary, sort of like tasteless, over-the-top. movies about, you know, a, you know, a.

gay drug kid murderer called Party. Monster. And in 1996, World of Wonder Productions from. RuPaul's Drag Race, they tried to option. a book about Michael Jackson which ex-. contained explicit descriptions of sex. between Jackson and Jordie Chandler. This book is called Michael Jackson Was. My Lover, The Secret Diary of Jordie. Chandler. >> [snorts]. >> And uh and the book was it had private.

information from the Chandlers like bank. receipts and medical records, etc. And so World of Wonder Productions, the. RuPaul's Drag Race people wanted to make. it into a documentary about the loving. romance between Michael Jackson and. Jordie Chandler. And in 2006 when. Jackson was Yeah, when Jackson was. broke, they finally did get the rights to the. book. They wrote four screenplays for. this movie. The movie was going to be.

called Michael Jackson Was My Lover. There's a 2006 article in British GQ. about this movie that was about to come. out. They had raised $4 million. for a pro-pedophile movie about the. erotic romance between Michael Jackson. and Jordie Chandler. >> Oh my god. >> is extremely hard to find. I had to you. know, you have to really work hard to. find it, but I found it and it's up on. my. uh YouTube channel now. I have a a video. about it. And so in they were about to.

release in 2007 and even Barba Auto and. Bailey, the guys behind World of Wonder. Productions, they said, "This shatters. all expectations. of what, you know, anybody can make. This is completely outrageous and that's. why we had to go to Europe to get. funding because in America the eek. factor about a positive portrayal of. pedophilia is so high. So we had to go. to Europe." And they said they had. raised $4 million dollars to make this.

movie. Of course, it it never came out, but it. was about to. A movie that portrayed. Jordie Chandler and Michael Jackson as a. sexual erotic couple. who were deeply in love with each other. without any hint of adverse judgment. >> Oh, that is sick. That that is. unbelievable. So, that So, RuPaul didn't. make the movie, but he owned the company. that was going to make the movie? >> Uh no, this is the company is owned by.

two guys in Hollywood. You know, they make a lot of LGBTQ. gay-themed content. Fenton Bailey, and they own the company. World of Wonder Productions, and that. company now makes RuPaul's Drag Race. They're You know, if you go to the. company's website, it says, "We're. bringing the underground into the. mainstream with, you know, uniqueness and extravagance." So, now. they're very mainstream. Back then, they. were on the, you know, extreme cutting.

edge of what was tasteful. >> they are mainstream. I mean, honestly, we we I don't watch RuPaul's Drag Race, but I saw Kamala Harris went over there, and we had done a segment 2 weeks before. Kamala Harris went over there to launch. like was one of her early campaign. videos. was showing. some crazy trans person, like a man, walking down the runway with fake. breasts in like bloody breasts in a bag. around him with blood dripping down his. chest, you know, fake blood. It was so.

dark. So, no, they really haven't. cleaned up their act much. I mean, you. can't go lower than glorifying. pedophilia, but okay. But, I do want to. spend a couple minutes on the two names. that we've been mentioning over and. over, which is. Wade Robson and James Safechuck. Those. are the two men who are featured in the, again, air quotes documentary Leaving. Neverland. And that was in 2019 that. revived this whole debate, you know, in. a massive way about what he was and what.

he wasn't because these were without. question two boys who when they were. young. 100% knew Michael Jackson and spent a. lot of time with Michael Jackson. Um one I think it was Wade won a dance. contest. It was he was like a look-alike. and one James Safechuck was in a uh an. advertisement with Michael and um did. get to know him. And and both of them. testified at the trial in 2005. that Michael Jackson never laid a hand. on them. Cuz we had the witnesses coming.

in like the extras saying. like the maid's son, he molested me, too. But we also had the character. witnesses for Michael like these two. like Macaulay Culkin who went to that. 2005 trial and said, he didn't he's. never laid a hand on me. He's a he's a. very good guy. These are lies. But these two. have come out in that so-called. documentary say, I was lying. I was. lying under oath then. Macaulay Culkin all these years, Emmanuel Lewis, too, who the kid who. played Webster. all these years never never laid a hand.

on me. I would tell you. I I like. Macaulay Culkin has said like. it's kind of fashionable these days to. say like you've been a victim of. something. He's like, trust me. If if I. had something to tell you, I would tell. you. Never laid a hand on me. So, these. two boys said the same, but then in 2019. cooperated with this filmmaker and there. are all sorts of credibility problems. especially with Robson, especially with. Wade Robson. What's your view on it, uh.

Andrew? >> Yeah, and even after so Wade Robson. testified at the trial in 2005 said. Michael never laid a hand on me. I think. uh Safechuck uh gave a deposition or a. statement, but didn't testify. But. certainly they both over the years over. and over and over said there was. absolutely nothing going on. And even. after the 2005 trial, they said there. was absolutely nothing going on. >> [clears throat]. >> And. and Robson especially was in contact. with Michael Jackson and was trying to.

sort of like work angles to build his. showbiz career with Michael Jackson's. help after 2005. And he claims that he changed his view. of Michael Jackson after he became a. father. That's what James Safechuck also. says. Who became a father, which you. know, that is sometimes a factor in. cases like this, but certainly and they. both sued Michael Jackson's estate and.

his companies in 2013 and 2014. And [snorts] they had to sue the estate. and the companies cuz Michael Jackson. was dead and the alleged abuse was long. past the statute of limitations. So the. theory of their lawsuit was that Michael. Jackson's companies had been. negligent in failing to prevent Michael. Jackson from abusing them. And because. the companies still exist and the estate. still exists, that was the theory of. their lawsuit. It was an extreme stretch. and the lawsuits were actually both.

dismissed. You know, I believe that Wade Robson. initially claimed something at 1.5. billion dollars from Michael Jackson's. estate and companies in his lawsuit. because he claimed that the abuse had. made it unable had made him unable to. launch his show business career, which. otherwise would have been extremely. successful. So the lawsuits are a real. stretch. and they are a money grab and and they. were eventually dismissed. Now. California has updated its laws and.

changed the statute of limitations, so. Robson and Safechuck's lawsuits have. been revived and may now go to trial. And so then you know, they told their. story in 2019 in the you know, documentary [clears throat]. or the interview series. And the thing is. uh, and the you know, it's not a. documentary because it doesn't even. attempt to provide any sort of balance. uh, in that part in that documentary. There's they're not cross-questioned. They they don't go into the timeline.

They don't go into all the statements. that they made supporting Michael. Jackson over the years. But, you know, you know, when I watched. it at the end of the documentary, I. thought. you know, these guys are. that you know, they are flawed and they. are they've questionable motives. I'm. not sure if I can completely trust them, but the pattern that they described. was consistent with. >> Totally. >> the statements of many other accusers.

and the details were consistent. >> But, all those had been public prior to. 2013 and 2014 when they or 15 when they. filed their lawsuits. So, it it they. absolutely could like the Jesus juice, you know, you could study that. You just. go back and read Jordy Chandler's. account. Read. the like I always forget the second boy. Gavin's. Read his account, you know, read the. earlier accounts that were out there and. you could come up with a credible story. I'm not saying it didn't happen to them. I really don't know and I I don't I have.

no wish to traumatize little boys who. were molested and then grew up and found. the courage to talk about it. Just. trying to be fair to. Jackson who's dead and unable to defend. himself here and in pointing out. you would be able to tell a credible. story because the earlier allegations. were not under seal. You could you could. steal heavily from them and craft a. story. And these two, I mean, apparently Wade. Robson at Michael's 2005 trial was a. star. Like he wasn't just a witness. He.

was a star and the. >> [clears throat]. >> prosecutor really tried to rattle him. and get him to admit. he did get molested. That there was that. Michael wasn't this upstanding, you. know, never touch a child figure and he. was un rattle able in a way it's been. very hard for some people to believe a. little boy would have been capable of. You know, that they believe the under. oath testimony where he said nothing. happened and they don't believe the. current Wade Robson who.

didn't. make these allegations until he thought. he was going to be cast as the. choreographer of the Cirque du Soleil. Michael Jackson show and he wasn't. Um. he wrote a book about his alleged. experiences with Michael and he. reportedly lied about having done that. when asked if he had written anything on. under deposition in his civil case, he. lied and said no and it turned out he. had and they I'm told, this is my own. reporting, that they actually wound up.

getting the metadata on. that book by going to some of the. publishing houses who had received. electronic submissions and um. it showed inconsistent. testimonials from him. Like his story. even in the own drafts of his book on. what happened to him changed. dramatically from version to version. which is very devastating. You know, it's like what do you mean? The abuse is. the abuse. Like why would it be changing. from version to version?

Um and he needed money. you know, so. there's a bunch of things with Wade. Robson. I'll go into it in another episode in. more detail because I do know a lot. about the these two in particular. Um. and Safechuck. we talked about this couple weeks ago, but he. also needed money, was facing some legal. um. some litigation. and um when he filed his claim and also. on top of that alleged that he was. abused by Michael Jackson through 1994.

Sorry, sorry. That it ended in 1991 or. two the abuse of him. And he claimed that it happened. repeatedly in this train station on. Neverland, like a fun Disneyland type. train station. And um after that so-called documentary. came out, it it was revealed that that train. station wasn't even built until 1994. The applica- the application for the. permit is public and it was was not. filed till '93 and it's public record. that that train station didn't go up. that until '94. So, there's no way.

James Safechuck was abused in that. in 1991. No way. And the filmmaker who, you know, put him out there with that. story said, "Oh, well, his date of the. abuse must be wrong. It must have ended. later than he thought.". Well, that's that's not how his. documentary presented it and Safechuck. hasn't explained that three-year. difference when he said in '91 or might. have been two, but the reason it stopped. was he had aged out. He's got he, you. know, a a pedophile, as I've been trying.

to tell the audience for months now in. related and unrelated stories, a pedophile is somebody who is attracted. to pre-pubescent. children. Through prior to 13 is what the. literature says. Pre-pubescent. And. all these kids have alleged that they. did age out. They aged out of his. attraction and this is Safechuck said. that as well. And if if it really were going on into.

'94, into that time frame, he would have. been, I think, 16, which is aged out by his own. description. And on top of that, Michael. Jackson by that point was spending his. time in New York, not at Neverland. So, again, and uh I don't know whether these. guys are telling the truth or not. All I. know is they too have serious. credibility problems, which are coming as news to most viewers. who haven't been tracking the coverage. really carefully. that looks critically at some of the. allegations. That's wrong. They You were.

meant to walk away from Leaving. Neverland thinking, I believe them. It. the whole thing was crafted to drive you. to that belief as opposed to just. presenting a fair both sides, you know, case. from which you could walk away with an. educated opinion. >> Yeah, and in fact, Dan Reed, the. director, he just released in late 2025. a follow-up. Um I It's also has Neverland in the. title. And I watched that and that is a.

much much more conventional and totally. unconvincing follow-up documentary. Like. traces how these lawsuits proceeded. And. in that documentary, you know, we see. Robson and Safechuck, you know, with. their families and they complain about. how terribly traumatized they are, but. most of the new documentary is, you know, sort of sleazy Hollywood. lawyers. explaining how they were trying to. maneuver the lawsuits against Michael. Jackson's estate. And so you see the.

lawyers, I don't want to call them. sleazy, but you know, they're kind of, you know, they're very lawyery in the. way they Oh my god, this this and this. >> Yeah. >> And it, you know, it makes it it really. Yeah, very slick and very unconvincing. And you also see that their lawsuits. initially went nowhere because the legal. theory was basically invented. And And. then in this documentary at least Dan. Reed, the director, does give some time. to the other side, to people who defend. Jackson and dispute Robson and.

Safechuck's claims. >> I mean, after he completely poisoned. everybody in 2019 with his original. piece, it's like, okay, great. And And. it's no accident to me that these guys. didn't come out until after Michael was. dead. Like. And the same with the Cassios. That. those four children who are. It's that story is so bizarre. They're. like. three sons and a daughter of a guy who. worked at the Helmsley Hotel in New York. that Michael Jackson would swing through. and their dad was a hotel worker and.

somehow he connected Michael with his. children and before they knew it he was. regularly visiting them in their New. Jersey very modest home. And Michael Jackson. moved in with the family for 3 months. after 9/11. Who's Wait, Michael. Jackson's on the couch. Michael. Jackson's living with us back in our. house. Okay, I'm like the kids at school. must have been. >> that before. Yeah, he did that with Wade Robson. Uh. he he moved in with I mean he moved into. Jordie Chandler's house and Michael.

Jackson would like when Jordie Chandler. Chandler was going to school, Michael. Jackson would show up at the house at. like, you know, 5:00 p.m. after Jordie. came home from school, sleep in the same. bedroom with Jordie Chandler and then in. the morning Michael Jackson would leave. while Jordie Chandler was at school. And. then when Jordie Chandler come back, Michael Jackson would come and stay and. sleep in the same bed with Jordie. Chandler. That went on for at least a. week. And it also went on with the. Robsons. I mean actually the Safechucks.

The Safechucks also report and there's. evidence to back this up from like. chauffeurs and documents that, you know, first of all, he bought them a house. and he also lived there for a long. while. He called the Cascios his second. family back in 1992 and and lived with. them on and off for various times. Now, I also have a lot of doubts about the. Cascio allegations because first of all, they've already been paid off. They. received a settlement of $16 million in. 2020.

And now the money's run out and now. they're saying Michael Jackson abused. them all publicly for the first time. >> Exactly same thing. So and they all. along had been defending him saying. never never never, but now Michael's. dead, then they said that the Leaving. Neverland documentary in 19 led to an. aha moment where one was like, I've got. to tell my siblings I really was. molested and then all the others are. like, me too, including the girl. She's. the only girl to ever come forward and.

say that she's been molested as far as I. know. Like I'm not sure that tracks. >> more. >> There's another girl? >> There's one more. Yeah, she's called. Jane Doe. And she claims that you so. she's never been she didn't sue and she. her identity is not known. She claims. Michael Jackson abused her in the late. 1980s and early 1990s and the only. reason there is anything to this story. is that you know, she provided checks of. you know, thou hundreds of thousands of.

dollars that Michael Jackson had made. out to her which apparently are. authentic but that doesn't prove. anything about her claims or allegations. and there's no other corroboration. >> I mean, I'm interested in it because. if you if you didn't sue then it's good. but why is he giving her big checks? I. mean like if she she must have. threatened a lawsuit otherwise he. wouldn't have been writing those but. okay, so in any event so this family now. suddenly after he's dead and the the the. gravy train is getting back on track.

because right around that time we were. seeing the Cirque du Soleil and the. Broadway musical was launched which. actually turned out to be a hit like. everything related to Michael Jackson. The Cirque du Soleil was a hit. The. Broadway show was a hit. The movie was a. hit. The music is coming back. There is. a very. very strong appetite for Michael. material and they realized it and. suddenly they've had an epiphany. I. don't think their lives are going that. great. They didn't look like they were. living large and you know, they're like,

what could it hurt? That's my own. assessment about them. Could be wrong. I don't know but that. was it. They're awfully late to the. story. Okay, I want to finish with where. you finish in the piece cuz I thought it. was a it was very well done. You you you. you spent a couple of good pages on like. what is a pedophile? What what do. pedophiles do? And like in general, if. you if you zoom out, does Michael Jackson's behavior. that we know he did. match?

And um. you write about something called the. preferential pedophile. And you write that the preferential. pedophile. Okay, so well, first you say. this, uh citing a book from 2010, uh study, Child Molester's Behavioral. Analysis. You say, "Preferential child. molesters. typically proceed by seducing their. child target. much in the same way that adults adults. seduce one another. They tend to focus. on attention-starved children from. broken or dysfunctional homes.

At first, the pedophile wins over the. child's parent. or parents by offering them support, advice, services, or gifts, and. showering them with praise." You. mentioned he bought some houses. Once the parents' guard is down, the. pedophile or maybe Cartier bracelets. Once the parents' guard is down, the. pedophile turns his attentions to the. child, spending time on things adults. and children can do together without. arousing suspicion, such as visiting an. amusement park. or sporting event, playing games with.

them, giving them gifts, and smothering. them with attention and praise. I mean, it's just when you. think about the Neverland Ranch through. this lens, it's like so. feels plain as the nose on your face. Preferential pedophiles are often noted. to be very good with children, able to talk to them easily and. understand their worldview, perhaps even. better than their parents. Their homes. will often feature interests. uh items of interest to children, such. as game consoles, toys, puppets, or. figurines. What did we hear in in the. movie, Michael? You know, we talked we. saw his room with all the stuffed.

animals, and brings the Twister game. home, and we've heard from Mark Geragos. that he had a two-story arcade at the. Neverland Ranch that was like, you know, something out of the '80s where, you. know, we I used to go and hang out and. play Space Invaders. The kids loved it. Not to mention, you know, the the Ferris wheel and the. the rides and on his front lawn and the. trains and so on. So, game consoles, toys, puppets, figurines, "Pedophiles Write Landing", the author of that study,

often refer to children using words like. clean, pure, innocent, or impish. "The homes of some pedophiles", writes. Landing, "have been described as shrines to. children or as miniature amusement. parks.". "After the pedophile has created a. situation in which he and the target. child can spend time alone, he must. convince the child to keep secrets." "To. this end, the pedophile often encourages. the child to engage in naughty behavior. such as smoking, drinking, cursing, or.

viewing pornography." My god. "This creates a bond of shame and. secrecy.". "Some pedophiles resort to outright. threats or violence, but that is rarely. the case with those who follow a. seduction model.". I mean, ah. Andrew, this is like. I don't It's like 10 We're 10 for 10. here on the matchups. >> Mhm. >> [clears throat]. >> And that's, you know, it's the author of. that that that I relied on, among.

others, is Kenneth Lanning, who was a. child sexual abuse specialist for the. FBI for decades and, you know, participated in thousands of cases and. interviewed thousands of pedophiles. And. the behavior pattern just fits so. closely. You know, Neverland was an. amusement park. If you look at the facts. is that Michael Jackson sent to Wade. Robson, it's love bombing. You know, Michael Jackson spent, uh, you know, five or six hours on the telephone to. young boys just talking about how.

wonderful his ranch was and everyone he. met on the tour and the great things. they were going to do together. And you know, Michael Jackson even, you. know, he he refers to you share your bed. with somebody. It's the cleanest, purest, innocent, sweet, innocent thing. to do. Because pedophiles, they. they don't think that what they're doing. is wrong. They believe that they are showing love. to another human being and helping a. young boy blossom and they're providing.

him with or her, you know, with with. attention and advice and material. assistance. And occasionally they have a. little play doctor session. which both of them enjoy. That is the. the. and as Landing says, the first time. they're accused, pedophiles always. always deny. They say, of course not. I. would never do something like that. And. then only when they're confronted with. the evidence, you know, with the hard.

drive full of pictures or you know, surveillance photos, then they say, okay, well, maybe we did that, but you. know, I understand this kid this kid. comes from a broken home. He had no. nothing going for him. His parents were. abusive and neglectful and I provided. him with love and attention and gifts. and that's supposed to be wrong. That's. supposed to be immoral. Who else was. going to take. care of this. >> interesting. So to clarify, in the mind of a.

pedophile. like this this preferential pedophile, cuz I guess there's another type that's. like I don't know whatever, but for. purposes of our discussion, that's what. we think Michael might have been. That that person. genuinely doesn't think he's doing. anything wrong. Like he recognizes. society has a judgment on it, but in his. mind, he genuinely is is like this is. okay. He's not like this is so wrong but. I'm going to do it anyway. >> Yeah, that is you know, that that's the.

pattern. It's also the pattern in that. weird book I was talking about that. almost got made into a movie. The book. about Michael Jackson containing this. explicit description of sex with Jordy. Chandler was positive toward that. relationship. And when you ask. pedophiles the you know, the smarter. many of them are very intelligent and. very social and educated and they'll. say, you know, look at ancient Greece. It was always accepted then. Look at. Oscar Wilde. So they have historical. parallels to it and they believe that.

it's just some people have a natural. preference for members of the opposite. sex or members of their own sex and some. people have a natural preference for. children and some children, and this is. the sinister thing, as you know, as I. pointed out as the that movie in 2007. that almost got made from people behind. RuPaul's Drag Race, that movie was going. to portray Jordy Chandler as the. initiator. of this sexual relationship with Michael. Jackson. It was going to portray him as.

wanting to have sex with Michael. Jackson. >> Gosh. >> As being a young gay boy who who who was. absolutely floored by his idol and now. had the chance to become intimate and. erotic with his idol and took it. You. know, so he's the one who seduced. Michael Jackson. That was going to be. the theme of the movie. You know, as as. far as we know according to the reports. And that's what pedophiles also say. >> A big question for a lot of us, you.

know, covering the news these days, do we have any idea how widespread this. is? Do we have any idea like. you know, they say who knows if this is. true, but they say like one in every. four person is a sociopath. Do we have. any idea like how widespread pedophilia. is or it's just there's just no way of. knowing because. the vast majority of them understand. this needs to remain underground or they. will lose their freedom and possibly. worse. >> Sure. And I mean the prevalence it's. it's very low. It's probably well under. 1%. Um thank goodness. And the one thing.

that, you know, if Kenneth Lanning, the. FBI guy, and other researchers were here. right now, what they would say is, if. you're thinking of pedophiles as a weird. nasty guy at the park in a dirty. overcoat or something like that, that's. completely wrong. The people who are. convicted of child molestation, first of. all, half of them are married. Only a quarter of them have any kind of. hard core child pornography. And the. vast majority are in positions of. authority and respect where they can.

have contact with children, like in. churches, schools, and youth groups. And. so, don't look for pedophiles at the. park or in a dark alley. Look for them. as being like weird older men who have. an a very unusual interest in children, who get along with them really well, and. who show them a lot more attention than. most uh males do, and who are in a. position to get access to children in.

like a school or a church or a boy scout. group. Those are the people who are most. likely to be pedophiles. >> So, at the end of the 3 months and the. article, and I know these things go. through so many drafts and so much. editing, so you are you've become deeply. familiar with this subject matter at. this point. What's your What's your judgment? What's. your takeaway on Michael Jackson? >> I think Michael Jackson was a pedophile, which doesn't necessarily mean he was a. child molester. But I think that, you.

know, uh. >> What do you mean? >> at the forest and not the trees. So, the. trees are all the individual accusers, all the rumors, speculation, gossip, and. all of that. Uh but when you look at the. forest, there is a consistent pattern of. him seeking out inappropriate contact. with young boys ex- and engaging in. clear grooming behavior with young boys. And there are numerous accusations of. him moving on. It's, you know, and also.

pedophiles don't just randomly go after. every child they meet. And Michael. Jackson loved children and he also, you. know, treated young girls very well and. took them to Neverland and, you know, formed friendships with them, too. He. loved children and he was in many ways. an extremely decent, kind person and a. humanitarian. But when he saw a certain. kind of beautiful young boy that he was. deeply attracted to, that's when he went.

into manipulative grooming mode. And. after, you know, a long selection. process determining how close he could. get, how many red lines he could cross, how much the child would be willing to. tolerate, in an unknown number of cases, I believe he did cross that line and. sexually abuse children. Not in a violent way. >> The distinction you're making between. you believe he was a pedophile but and. and maybe not a child molester, but you.

believe yes, is that you could be a. pedophile without acting on it, you're. saying. >> Yeah, they call themselves virtuous. pedophiles. And so there there are. support groups for It's almost always. men, of course, who who are attracted to. children and who have committed to never. acting on it because they know it's. wrong and it's immoral and it's harmful. And and they call themselves virtuous. and I know I have to hand them credit. If if they don't act on it, then nobody.

is harmed. And, you know, I think that's. what Michael Jackson should have done. He should have gotten help, tried to redirect his impulses, and if. he couldn't redirect them to, you know, maybe. young 18-year-old men, you you which is, you know, what they call twinks in the. gay community. I'm not gay, but you. know, I know the term. You know, if if. he couldn't do that, then he had a moral. responsibility to not act on those. desires. And I believe he did. >> We did talk about before, um.

there's tape of Michael Jackson talking. about how Joe Jackson, who is without a. question abusive of of his children. Um but I I. I don't know about sexually abusive, but. for physically abusive. But there is. tape of Michael Jackson saying that his. father, before the beatings, used to. make him get naked and used to rub oil. all over Michael before he beat him with. the cord of an iron. Now, that's just bizarre. I mean, it's. just I I've never heard of the most. abusive dads. we've we've heard of in the news forcing.

a child to get naked and oiling him up. So, that's strange. It's definitely. strange. And, you know, sometimes with. child abuse, sexual abuse, it can. perpetuate itself. Like if that was done. to you, there seems to be a higher. likelihood that you're going to do it to. somebody else. Um. there's no allegation that he beat any. children, but I I mean the possible. possibility of sexual abuse, unconfirmed, but it was something that. was really jarring to listen to. Uh Joe Jackson was not a good man. And. it seems like the entire family admits.

that because they're all behind this. movie. And he's portrayed terribly in. it. So, clearly everyone, including. Katherine Jackson, who's Joe Jackson's. wife and Michael's mom, who's still. alive, she was fine with him being. portrayed as a complete abusive bastard, too. So, like this is not a good person. if we're looking for the whys. And look. how Michael died. You know, look. look how he died. Like he was he became. a drug addict long before he actually. died. Now, he'd been through a lot, you. know, he's got that terrible burn. He'd. been, you know, dragged through the.

criminal courts. And if you were. innocent, that would really stress you. But like. you have to wonder what was haunting him. so badly that he needed propofol. to get any rest at night, to fall asleep. at night. Like what kind of demons. were in there? Um. and I'm not sure we'll ever have a. definitive answer, you know, without. like a videotape or a photo. We're we're. going to be be left to figure it out. ourselves. And then the next question as. as I said, to then ask ourselves whether.

it matters when it comes to our ability. to enjoy the art as opposed to the. artist. Uh I don't know, have you. thought about that, Andrew, as somebody. who's been like neck deep in this? Are. you Are you able to like. enjoy a Michael Jackson song or watch. the movie and admire the dancing? >> Yeah, I've watched the movie and I. really enjoyed it. I mean, it's it's not. something deep or profound, but it's. fantastic entertainment. Michael Jackson. was an absolute musical genius and you. know, he had a lot He's He was also an.

incredible humanitarian who gave. millions and millions to charity. And the music is fantastic. I you know, I think of it as you know, do you like. the music of the Rolling Stones? Well, the Rolling Stones had sex with. 13-year-old groupies all through the. 1970s. You know, Roman Polanski is a great. director and he also raped a 13-year-old. girl in 1977 and probably did more than. that. >> Jerry Lee Lewis. >> Jerry Lee Lewis. I mean, the list goes.

on and on. >> wasn't it the girl he married 13? >> Yeah, exactly. And And. that was a huge scandal back then. It. was technically legal. And you know, if. you look at contemporary artists, Picasso was a bastard and they all. through history, you know, Leonardo da. Vinci was a pedophile and a pederast. [clears throat]. in his time. And so I think you can. enjoy the art, you can enjoy the music, but always with an asterisk. And the. asterisk must mean that no matter how.

rich you are, no matter how gifted, no. matter how famous, uh if you abuse your your intelligence. and gifts to exploit children, then you. must that must always be a part of your. legacy. It must always be mentioned and. anything that doesn't mention it is a. whitewash and dishonest. >> Totally fair. I love the way you said. that and I completely agree with you. Andrew Hammel, thank you so much for. writing this piece. Again, um it's at.

Quillette if you Google it, um you'll. find it but the name is Never, Neverland, The New Michael Jackson. Biopic and the Campaign to Whitewash the. King of Pop's Reputation by Andrew. Hammel, H A M M E L. Thank you. Thank. you. We This is an important. conversation. We really appreciate it. >> You're very welcome. I really enjoyed. it. >> Aw, all the best to you. >> Thanks. >> Wow. Wow. Gosh, I'm like.

I couldn't I couldn't stop reading the. piece. I I sent it to so many people. because there's there's even more detail. in the piece if you read it, which maybe. you will now. I I first listened to the. audio, you know I love my audio news and. then I printed it out cuz like I I was. like I know I need to lay eyes on this. piece and actually read it, which I did. multiple times. Uh well worth your time cuz there's even. more details in there and it's well. written, too. Um I'd love to know your thoughts cuz I. feel like you guys have been through. this with me now. We've done several. in-depth. looks at this. Um.

and at some point I will do the deeper. dive into Wade Robson and James. Safechuck with you because I do know a. lot about those two. Um. what do you think? What do you think? Those two questions. Was he. and does it matter to you when it comes. to your ability to enjoy the art? I mean. I know it matters to you, but like does. it matter to you when it comes to the. ability to enjoy his songs, his dancing, this movie, the rehabilitation that's. underway of his image? What do you think. about it? Email me. It's at. megan@megynkelly.com.

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