Secrets of the Night Stalkers, and Rescuing Marcus Luttrell, with Army Master Aviator Alan C. Mack

Hey everyone, I'm Megan Kelly. Welcome. to the Megan Kelly show and happy. Memorial Day. Every year we take time to. highlight a veteran who sacrificed for. our country and this year we have an. extraordinary guest for you. Alan C. Mack is a master aviator who served more. than 35 years in the US Army. Allan. spent 17 years flying Shinook. helicopters as part of the Elite 160th. Special Operations Aviations Regiment, better known as the Nightstalkers. Allan. and his team were among the first men to.

enter Afghanistan after 9/11. Their. mission included flying special forces. teams to the ground in the dark of. night. Among those Allan delivered into. combat were the special forces known as. the horse sold soldiers. Their story. became a major motion picture in 12. Strong. Allan also planned the heroic. rescue of Navy Seal Marcus Latrell, better known to some as the lone. survivor. Allen's many combat operations. tell a story of bravery and. determination, but his journey came with. personal struggles. Struggles he has.

spoken about openly in an effort to help. his fellow vets. In 2022, he wrote the. book Razor 3: A Night [music] Stalker's. Wars. And he has a new book out in. August called Shinooks in the Dark. Don't miss a moment. Subscribe to this. show on YouTube and follow me on Insta, Facebook, and X. When there are supply. constraints on commodities, prices. surge. You see it with fuel prices with. everything happening in the straight of. Hormuz. And you know what else is a.

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gold, text MK to the number 989898. Bridgeold can help you convert an. existing IRA or 401k into a tax. sheltered IRA in physical gold. Text MK. to the number 989898 to see if you. qualify for a firsttime gold buyer. rebate of up to $10,000. Alan Cmack, welcome to the show. >> Oh, thanks for having me. >> Oh, it's a pleasure. Thank you for your. service. Uh, >> you know, like I said earlier, I enjoyed. almost all of it. >> Ah, all right. So, tell us back take us.

back to how you became attracted to. joining the armed forces. You when you. did you come from a military family? >> No, not really. You know, I uh grew up. in coastal New Hampshire. >> Okay. in Portsouth and uh in the late. 60s early 70s obviously the Vietnam war. was still going on and you had the. nightly news Walter Kron kite and all. that kind of stuff and they show videos. of you know helicopters zipping across. the screen and I said that's what I want. to do and uh that kind of dropped off.

after a while and eventually the be all. you can be commercials uh caught my. attention. >> really yeah. >> they worked on you they did. >> we actually pulled it let's watch it. let's see what what what it was. >> A ranger never takes the easy [music]. way out. You're reaching deep inside you for. things you never known. >> That's why getting into the Rangers is. tough and the training is tough. [music].

>> So, it makes me feel like I'm part of. something really special. [music]. all that. >> And I'm not the only one. >> Be all that you can be. You can do it in. the army. So, what was it? >> Just the the mood, the message that like. >> training is tough. >> I don't know. It just was something I. wanted to do. You know, I wanted to fly. >> Okay. >> And. >> And did you have was there a reason for. that? >> No, I just thought it was cool.

>> Wow. Okay. >> So, I go to the uh army recruiter and. I'm like, uh, hey, I want to go you. know, graduating high school. Can I can. I go fly helicopters? And because that's. one of the things that they had, they. call it street deceit, high school to. flight school. >> Okay. >> Uh and he's like, no, you know, it. doesn't work quite that way. You know, you don't already have a pilot's. license, you know, that kind of stuff. So, he said, why don't you just join as. an aircraft mechanic and then you can. get used to the aviation community and. then put in for it, right? And. >> it was kind of a twofold thing. Number. one, he didn't get credit for officers,

you know, just Yeah. But he was correct, you know, it was good advice, you know, because I was 18. >> Yeah. Right. >> You know, and I needed. >> Did you know anything about airplanes or. how to fix them at that point? No. >> So, they teach you right from scratch. Oh, >> yeah. >> That's kind of amazing. >> Yeah. No, it was great. >> So, when you join to become an airplane. mechanic on on his way ideally to. becoming a pilot who can jump out of. helicopters and etc. >> Um, what branch of the military is that? >> Uh, for me is the army. >> But it does it have to be?

>> Uh, no. Yeah. >> You could do it in the Marines, the Air. Force. >> You were just attracted to the army. >> I like the army. >> Okay. It was just the the commercial. again. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> All right. So, they say, "We'll take. you.". >> Mhm. >> All right. And you got to do the basic. training. And do they go right out? You. go right off to fixing helicopters. >> You go what's called advanced individual. training. AIT, right? So, I went to. Virginia for that. I was like four or. five months. >> And then my first assignment was uh the. Republic of South Korea. Oh, well, I. didn't realize that you could declare.

that you want to be like an airplane. mechanic. >> That's Well, that's the key, too. The. Army is the only service that did that. and still does. >> Oh, >> so the other services you kind of you. take a test and they tell you here's. what you're eligible for, which the army. does as well. Y. >> but then they say, okay, pick your top. three and you're likely to get one of. those three. Whereas in the army, they'll guarantee. >> the job and I believe your first. assignment. this story like the way you. started because you would go on to. become this incredibly well-known.

revered pilot, but it's kind of like. somebody told me a story about Elon Musk. one time and it they were saying that if. you went to Tesla in the early days uh. that you know they were building Tesla, you would see Elon out there on the. floor kicking the engines like taking. them apart, putting them back together. He was not hands off like he he really. felt he needed to know exactly how this. engine was going to work. >> in order to have this this thing be. successful and so it probably I mean. don't you think that that was the.

advantage you had over all the other. pilots? You just knew it so well from. your years as a mechanic. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, I I did nine years as a. mechanic and then Wow. I decided I was. in Germany at the time, West Germany, >> and I was like, "All right, I'm going to. put in for flight school and if I don't. get accepted, I'll get out and if I do, you know, go fly." And when I got there, the army had transitioned from the TH55. helicopter, which is a little. two-seater, to the Huey, the UH1, uh, because they were transitioning to. Blackhawks. So, they were had no use for.

the Hueies. So, they ah, let's go teach. people in that. So I had all the. advantage because I worked on them. So. while other students my, you know, my. peers were studying about, you know, how. the transmission, the engine, you know, the avionics worked, I already knew. that. So I could focus on meteorology, aeromedical, aerodynamics, you know, that kind of stuff. So I had the. advantage. >> in that case. >> So was it hard to elevate up to becoming. a pilot? Like what do they do to you?

How how do they make sure you're worthy? Oh, well I mean it takes about eight. months to get through flight school. And. back then you were a warrant officer. candidate a walk the entire time until. you graduate. Nowadays you're a walk for. four to six weeks and then they make you. a a W1. So the warrant officer ranks go. W1 2 3 4 and CW5 and which didn't exist. at the time. It was only four. But they. um they spoon feed you. I mean, they. know how to teach and they've been doing. it for years and it just works really.

well. You know, the. >> the process, you know, they. >> So, within eight months, you went from. being a mechanic to being a pilot. >> Yeah. >> That's crazy. >> Yeah. Although, you're not very good. pilot, >> you know. I mean, it's like. >> So, what do they let you fly? >> Well, you're you fly as a co-pilot. >> Okay. >> So, you're, you know, a two seat. aircraft. You You're the junior guy. So, it's like driving with your 16-year-old. when they first learn. >> Yes. I'm doing that right now. >> Yeah. It's a little scary. >> Yes. I could use that brake that they. used to have in driver's ed. >> Yeah, that's the right. That's the. That's the thing you have in the.

helicopter. They've got another set of. controls. >> So, if you're not the one Yeah. You're. not the one making the decisions. There's a senior guy next to you saying, "All right, let's go here.". >> And was it always helicopters? >> For me, it was. >> Okay. Yeah. >> So, not the uh like the fixed wing. whatever aircraft. >> Um and was it always Hueies when you. were learning when you were training? >> Yes. >> Okay. Because I know those would. eventually be phased out and as you. mentioned, and then you'd be graduating. what to the Chinook, >> right? So I was lucky enough because of. the advantages I had with the academics. I was a distinguished honor. So the army.

at the time like the airline industry. today kind of aged out. You know the. pilots were all retiring at the same. time. >> and especially in the Shinook community. So the Chinook community is very at the. time was very topheavy very senior. oriented. So all these guys were older. and they were leaving. And the only way. to refresh that with any kind of. longevity was take new guys like me, which was, you know, kind of unheard of. at the time. So there's no metric to.

say, okay, he's going to be a good chunk. pilot. So they just look at grade point. average and all right, this guy is. number one, this guy's number two. So me. and, you know, one of my peers in class, you know, we got selected for Chinooks. right out of flight school. So. >> what year is this now? >> So this is 1989. >> Okay. So long before 911, like what do. they send you off to do after that? Like, >> well, were you bored? >> It just so No, because it just so. happens. >> 91 something happened, >> right? So I actually, so I started in '. 89. Really? I graduated in 90. And in.

the summer of 90, I get to Savannah, Georgia, which is my first assignment, and Saddam Hussein invades Kuwait. And. we're designated, we're part of the 18th. Airborne Corps. our headquarters was at. Fort Bragg and we were designated to go. there. Uh, which was interesting because. as a new pilot, there's a a readiness. level progression that you have to go. through and to make sure you're a. competent co-pilot, you have training.

that usually takes four or five months. >> Oh. >> And, you know, as you get to the unit. and they're like, "All right, we're. sending our helicopters away, you know.". So, we flew them up to Wilmington, uh, North Carolina. They sent them on a old. ship, you know, over to Saudi Arabia. In. the meantime, we had nothing to fly. So. the 160th was right next door to us and. they were going to go by airplane by C5. So they lent us a helicopter for me to. get trained. It's funny because then, you know, I spent 17 years with them. later on. >> Yeah. Right. >> But meanwhile, it's like I don't to me.

that sounds so daunting that you're. here's a here's a loner. You're going to. have to learn how to fly this. helicopter, this this new one before you. go off to war. It's actual war now. And. good luck. Yeah. Well, the nice thing is. that once again, you're the junior guy. in a twoperson crew and then you've got. actually crew chiefs in the back, three. maybe four of them, they can tell you. what to do. >> or who you could also take down. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter]. >> That's you see how I'm looking at it. Yeah. I'm generally more positive, but. when it comes to flying, I've definitely.

got a fear. So, I I just This is so. foreign to me that you would ever. >> flying is so fun. >> Oh my gosh. That you would ever. volunteer to do such a thing. It's just. such a dangerous activity. But I know. it's. >> It is and it isn't. It's unforgiving. >> Yeah. Yes. >> Perhaps a little risky, but you can. mitigate risk. >> Yes. Well, clearly you've done a good. job of that. Um, okay. So, you you fly. Shinooks. >> Yeah. >> In uh Desert Storm, >> right? >> And how did that go for you? Was there. >> for me? It went great. Um, you know, the.

you had Desert Shield preceding Desert. Storm. And so about six months or so of. just flying in the desert. And because I. was the new guy, they flew me every day, you know, with a senior pilot. And then. we flew at night. And. the interesting thing about me being a. nightstalker eventually is that, you. know, you fly at night, night vision. goggles. And the goggles at the time. were. you would wear them um kind of stuff you. see in some of the older '9s movies, you.

know, you great big things, you know, surgical tubing holding them on your. helmet and counterweights and. >> look like an alien. Yeah, it was quite a. mess. But the older guys that had flown. in Vietnam and such, they did not want. to fly these, you know, they would much. rather fly uh what we call nighthawk or. unaded, right? So just, you know, what. you can see out the window. And in Saudi. Arabia, it's pitch black if there's any. kind of cloud cover. You know, there's. no cultural lighting out in the desert. >> So you cannot fly like that with just by. the eye, >> right? So they're like, "Well, send the.

woge, which is Warren Officer Jr. uh to. go fly." And I got good at it. you know, and we got a couple hundred hours flying. at night in the. >> with the night vision goggles on, >> whereas the older guys didn't. So, out. of 16 air crews, we had six that. actually flew at night. >> Okay. And is it incredibly challenging? Like, >> it can be. Yeah. The the flying isn't so. bad. It's the landing and takeoffs. because you get all the dust, right? And. you can't see out the window. >> Yes. No, that doesn't sound safe. You're. in a place where the the word desert is.

in the title. >> Yeah. It is less safe than you know you. know being able to see out the window. for sure. >> Um so did you see any action while you. were over there like what what did you. do? >> No, I mean we hauled you know cargo and. you know the u the famous uh Norman. Schwarzoff left hook. >> you know we were part of that. So we. were part of I think it was 100 125. Shinooks. >> in flights of five flying up into. objective Cobra bringing up artillery. resupply fuel. >> Okay. Uh, and that's kind of what.

>> that's not that's probably as starts go. not a bad one. >> No, no, that's not bad. >> Right. It's not you're not like. >> Oh, we were very excited at. >> over Fallujah. >> You know, I Right. I look back now and. it's like that was pretty tame compared. to what came later on. But we also. >> I had more experience later on. I had. better equipment, better training. Um, >> so what went on between 91 and 2001? >> So 91 and 2001. Uh, so I get back. So, so the army had. this saying, we own the night, right?

Because the night vision goggles. And. what we found out in Saudi Arabia is we. did not own the night. We were, as we. joked, leasing it or renting it. >> Because everybody was flying into the. top of these dunes. So the dunes in. Saudi Arabia, you see them in the. movies, Lawrence Baby, all this stuff. >> They kind of they come up and then they. have a second lip and with the goggles, you'd see the first lip but not the. second one. >> And guys were flying into that and. ripping off their landing gear. So they. decided to do the big assault during the. day because it was insane the airspace.

that we were in. And had we done it at. night, it would not have gone well. Okay. In hindsight. >> So. >> So that was strategic, >> right? Oh. So anyway, uh so now when we. get back to the States, the army intends. to own the night. So every exercise we. do includes night vision goggle crews. >> And remember I said out of 16, we had. six. Well, I'm one of the six. So, everything we did was, you know, I was. at the National Training Center, the. Joint Readiness Training Center, uh,

other places out over the water, whatever it is. And we got really good. at it. And about the time we did that, I. got assigned to Korea again, but as a. pilot instead of a mechanic. And when I. was there, I became a night vision. goggle unit trainer, which is one level. below an instructor pilot. Mhm. >> And I flew the border of North and South. Korea back and forth uh from memory. So. you had to teach people. >> the border. >> That's risky. >> Yeah, it it is. And the reason they do.

it, it was always kind of, you know, we're always like, but we're going east. west. You know, it's not the same as. going north south, but you're seeing the. landmarks. >> And the idea is, you remember, um, >> what was his name? Bobby Hall was. infamous for he flew across the border. him and his co-pilot and they got shot. down by North Korea and he was held for. a little while. >> and eventually released. >> But that's what that's responsible for. is to teach guys what to look for and. know to turn around. When I was reading. up on you, I all I could think about was.

what just recently happened in Iran. with, you know, we're told these two. pilots are went down and, you know, the. one was like hiding there in the in the. mountains of Iran for the better part of. a day. >> before we sent in all these planes to go. rescue him. What did you make of that. story? >> That, you know, it's kind of a little. bit of irony there that the the 160th. was involved in that because the 160th. was invented because of the Iran hostage. crisis, right? So, Operation Eagle Claw, which was a failure at Desert One when. the uh the helicopter flew into the.

refilling tanker on the ground, blew up, >> President Carter aborted it, everybody. came back. >> and you know, it's all over the news. You know, a tactical mission now is a. strategic failure. So, what they did is. they reformed the entire task force and. created the 160th out of that. And the. second hostage rescue attempt wasn't. required because President Reagan came. in, they released the hostages and. everybody stood down. But what they. decided was that they would keep the.

army rotary wing soft special operations. forces intact and that was the 160th. >> Yeah. >> So formed from the ashes of desert one, they go into Iran to rescue this guy. doing their mission and you know they. did well. You know they ran ran into. some problems as you as you will. Yep. >> But there's always contingencies and. they had contingencies. >> But you're exactly the kind of guy they. would call in to advise on how we're. going to do this, right? Like that's. exactly the kind of thing they'd call. you up about. >> And how risky was that? I mean, just.

>> flying into like this mountain in. mountainous territory trying to retrieve. our guy over, you know, enemy territory. >> You know, the. the environmental conditions are usually. more dangerous than the threat, >> you know. So running into the mountain, the weather, you know, that kind of. stuff because there's no weather. reporting out there. So you're kind of. >> making an educated guess based on the. overhead assets and stuff, >> but you know, they are penetrating some. pretty hefty enemy air defense, you. know, because I think the Blackhawks,

the Air Force Blackhawks were shot at. the day before with man pads, >> heat-seeking missiles. >> Oh, that's terrifying. >> Yeah. >> I mean, how do you how do you get in a. helicopter knowing that that could be a. possibility? a heat-seeking missile. could get fired at you or service to air. like what? >> Well, uh I was thinking about this this. morning actually. >> You were. >> I was um every aircraft special. operations aircraft in particular have. uh counter measures, right, for. >> you're not just a sitting duck, a flying.

duck up there. >> So, every weapon that's out there. designed to take down an aircraft has. what's called a probable kill ratio or a. PK. So, let's say a man pad is fired at. you, blue sky background, no terrain. between you and the thing, and no. countermeasures. It probably has a. probable kill of like 99%. >> Oh, gez. >> Right. So, you add counter measures like. flares or lasers or any of the stuff. that they're using nowadays and the. probable kill ratio drops to like 20%. And then if you add technique and.

tactics to it, you might get it down to, you know, 1% or no percent. Do you have. the like in the movies where if they. lock on you, you you something on your. bird starts going and you're like, "Okay." Yes, >> you do. >> Yeah. As a matter of fact, >> have you ever had to listen to that. sound? >> Plenty of times. But. >> plenty. >> the uh I did have two in 2001. I had two. man pads fired at me on the single day. I was flying General Franks into the. embassy in Kabul when we took it back. over in December of 2001. And it was a. daylight flight and uh what we think was.

an HN5. It's a Chinese variant of the. SA7 was fired at us. Went right between. my aircraft and chock 2. Flares. deployed, decoyed. It. >> and off we went. >> What does the flare do? >> The flare, well, without getting into too many. details, it matches your heat signature. >> And so when the missile locks on to you, right? So when a guy fires the man pad, he he looks at you, it locks on and he. fires it. And so the missile is going to. seek it's going to home in on your heat.

signature that it locked on. Yep. >> So the idea is to throw another heat. source that is first a little hotter and. then more match matches you. Right. And. the idea is that a more sophisticated. missile getting too technically. >> No, no. I love this. This is. >> a more a more technical miss a newer. missile will see the flare launch and. say it will start to follow it and it. will go that's a flare. Ignore it. So. now it goes back to the other heat. source, but you've sent out more than. one. So the the a different temperature.

flare is out there to to get it. The. idea is to get your engine exhaust out. of their field of view decoys. And it. works. >> And and but for you as the pilot, it's. just like fingers crossed those two. things work. >> It happens at low level. It happens so. fast that you don't know it's coming. Like no one says, "Oh, there's a missile. coming." The flares go out. >> automatically. >> Automatically. >> Oh, great. And you go, was that an. inadvertent launch? Because sometimes. they go off on their own. >> Yep. >> And no, sir, missile went between us,

you know. And. >> and so if they didn't work, if the if. the missile was not fooled by those. flares, you'd just be blown up. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> That's not a bad way to go. >> Most likely. Well, I like to say miss by. an inch, miss by a mile, a miss is a. miss. Unless there's a proximity. warhead, in which case you're screwed. >> Oh, okay. All right. That's like our uh. our burner less lethal protection that. we advertise. They advertise on our show. where it's like it looks like a gun and. it fires these pellets and but unlike a. gun, you don't actually have to put the. bullet in the bad guy. If you can just.

like hit the wall behind the bad guy, it. it goes off and it's like this very. toxic fume stuff that will like. incapacitate him for a half an hour. >> Close enough. It's good for somebody who. may not be the greatest shot in the. world. >> Yeah. So, the goal when the missile. comes at you and misses, which it's. going to with the with the counter. measures, um is to get out of the. engagement zone. So, either you put. terrain between you and the the guy that. might have another missile or uh.

well, that's really all you can do. >> That's it. [laughter] That's the. >> And so, I dropped down. So, I had on. board, you know, General uh General. Franks, who's in charge of all of the. Sentcom, a AO, his wife, General Harold, you know, the whole entourage of staff. >> He's relying on you to keep him safe and. to get him. >> and they're on headset, right? So, they. can hear the conversation. And the next. day, so we we drop down about 10 feet. off the ground. Like I mean that, you. know, pretty much no higher than the. ceiling here. >> because they can't find you. The. missiles can't get you when you're. >> they can't get a lock. So if you have. terrain in the background, the the.

seeker head has a tendency of not being. able to pick you out of the clutter. >> Oh, >> at least that's the goal. Or, >> you know, if you can get down in in a in. a low enough swale or a stream bed, you. might be able to block them, you know, with some kind of terrain. >> Yep. It doesn't take much. But we came. in doing about 170 miles an hour and uh. dropped into the embassy. The press. wasn't ready yet. They were inside. We. were a little early now. I was like, "All right, sir. Get out." And he's. like, "All right, chief." You know, you. know, he didn't know what was going on. Oh. >> And so I they got out. I took off and um.

out over the the city of Kabool, which. is I don't know if you've ever been. there. It's it's very sprawling. It felt. like LA, you know, like not real tall. but really wide. >> and there's um. >> TV antennas all over the place and u I. got another one fired at me. >> on the way out. >> On the way out. Yeah. So the next. morning I go over to talk to the the. general and I say, "Hey sir, what' you. think?" He's like, "We had no idea you. guys sounded so calm on the radio or you.

know there we're just. >> Let me ask you a question. Is anything. was something done wrong in that. situation for you to have been subjected. to that? Did on a normal mission should. somebody have known? >> We flew in the daylight uh to an area. that was well known that we were going. to. >> So is this is a known risk and you like. the the chopper? >> Yeah, I suggested I suggested to Sentcom. that they drive uh which you know in. hindsight is just as dangerous. >> Yeah, I was going to say based just.

based on my own reporting of what. happened over there. You could drive or. you could fly with me, you know. And. when I say me, right, I want to I want. to start this right now is that, you. know, I was just one of many just like. me, you know, and the guys I was. reminded after by my very first podcast. One of the guys called me and said, "Hey, uh, Al, I noticed you said I did. this, I did that a lot.". >> As I recall, I was sitting right next to. you. I was like, "Yeah, yeah, okay." So. >> Oh, that's sweet. I actually think it's. sweet that like he wanted to be. remembered and and it must be an. important memory to him.

>> Yeah. Well, you know, but you know, also, you know, they were taking the. same risk and doing the same things. Totally. You know, I just happen to be. the decision maker. >> Yes. Well, you're you were a very. important one and for good reason. Now, we're sort of we're seeing sort of the. building blocks of what makes you you. and why you had become so special and so. important to them. >> Um, and Stone Cold, too. Like, I don't. Can you speak of the nerves? Like, was. there a career as an air traffic. controller at So, like how are. >> No, those guys have a job that's. stressful. >> That's extremely stressful. That's like. the height of stress. But this is very.

stressful too. Surfacetoair missiles or. whatever man pads are coming at me. What. was there something in your background? Did you meditate? What how did you. handle that? >> It's the training. You know it's well. it's selection who who the unit takes. and then you know there's certain. personalities that work in this. situation and others that don't. And. then they just train you and then you. train very realistic. And uh you know. it's funny. I was talking to Jerry. Brookheimimer at the premiere for 12. Strong. And he's like ah you know hope.

you like the movie. And I said uh well. as long as you didn't make us look like. I've seen in every other movie which is. you got the badass special operations. guys coming in and they're flying low. and all of a sudden someone shoots a. pistol at them and they all run into. each other and oh god [laughter] they're. shooting at us. Um and he goes no I. think you're g you like it. And uh my. point to that is the general and his. staff heard us talking on the internal. comms and they didn't know we were being. shot at because the conversational tone.

is you know missile 2:00 evading you. know descending speeding up. >> I think even I would know that's okay. I. understood enough. >> Yeah. But you know what happens is you. you do the mission and then you come. back and when you've done the the. afteraction review and you kind of sit. down, you know, at the mess hall and. you're eating, you know, that's when it. it it dawns on you, oh crap, we almost. died. >> Yeah. You know, and I wrote about that. in the book that. >> in the first week or two, the other.

flight, there was two of us uh flying. out at Task Force Dagger in K2 carib. uh we. snuck off to discuss. >> Oh, I like this. >> How we thought we were going to. >> with their liquor? >> Yeah. The CIA brought us a bottle of. Jack. >> Yeah. >> And uh we each had a little. >> This humanized you. >> Each had a little snort and uh. >> because you were about just so set the. scene. you were about to go off on a. mission and you were. >> Well, so we're back now. So, we've done. a couple of missions uh into Afghanistan.

and. really, you know, I talked about the. environment being one of the most. dangerous parts of flying. You know, we're flying into the mountains of of. northern Afghanistan. >> This is now post. >> post 911. >> 911. Yeah. >> And we're flying using equipment that. we've never been allowed to use for. real. You know, you could train with it, but you couldn't go in the mountains in. the clouds. And it was Donald Rumsfeld. that actually called us and said, uh, you know, you will get those teams in. tonight, period. And that's a whole. whole story on its own. But so, you.

know, we we get through these first. like, you know, two, three missions. And. each of them was like by the skin of our. teeth. Like both the other flight lead. and me, you know, took the aircraft. right to its limit. I mean, they were up. at 22,000 ft. >> Oh. >> You know, and I was. >> How high can the aircraft go? >> About 25. >> Oh, jeez. You're on oxygen. The doors. are open, you know, because you got. miniguns hanging out. >> Usually a little worried about a big a. big wind or something. I mean, like. that's so close to tops. >> Yeah. The wind the wind sucks.

>> Yeah. >> Coming off the mountains, a lot of. turbulence. But we came back and both of. us had near misses on all the missions. where we just didn't think our luck was. going to hold out. And we sat in the. back room there with a little shot of. Jack. And I was I don't remember who. initiated the conversation, but it was. like, "Hey, what do you think?" It's. like I think we're going to die in the. next, you know, mission or two. And he. said, "Yeah, I agree.". >> And they were like, "What do we do?" And. the. >> fill her up. >> Well, the answer was we do the missions. because who else was going to do it? You.

know, it's right after 911. >> That's I mean, I've talked to so many of. you guys and that's the attitude. That's. like it's shocking to hear, but it's. actually not because you all seem to. feel that way. You know, it's like uh. Rob O'Neal told me when they were flying. over to um Abadabad in those helicopters. and they all thought, "Yeah, probably. going to die doing this. this is, yeah, going in to get Bin Laden in the middle. of the night. He's probably pretty well. protected and we're taking a lot of. risks. And he tells an amazing story, one of my favorite ever, of how. >> one guy sort of said, not not like he.

was chickening out, but basically like, "So, what are we what why are we doing. this again?" Because like it's near a. certain death. And um they had a. discussion about a woman who was on I. think the South World Trade Center. >> and and was holding her dress down. >> for modesty. >> I remember watching that. Um. >> you know, it's funny as you tell the. story. I get I'm getting a little teared. up here. >> Yeah. >> The um I was at uh Camp Borgard, Louisiana. We were doing a training.

exercise and uh I heard guys in the. hallway making a bunch of noise like, "Holy crap, did you see that?" You know, they were watching the news. They saw. the first plane hit. >> Yep. >> So, I turned on the TV, started making a. pot of coffee, and you know, I watched. the second plane hit. I was like, "Okay, this is no act. >> This is an attack. >> It's definitely attack." So, I'm going. run around getting everybody, you know, together. And we ended up driving back. to Fort Campbell because they wouldn't. let anything fly, >> right? That was like a 12-h hour drive.

And then the next day I was in Tampa, you know, another 15 hour drive, you. know, just a plan uh what was initially. called um infinite response or something. like that. I can't remember the exact. >> indefinite indefinite. Yeah, I remember. >> Yeah. Donald Roosefell came out. They. read us the right act. Do not talk about. this at all. Infinite justice. >> Infinite justice. That's what it was. Yeah. >> And so they're like, don't you talk. about this at all. And we're driving. back to Campbell listening to NPR. It's. the only radio station we could get like. all the way up. reliably. >> I forgive you. [laughter].

>> You gotta do something. No satellite. radio. No cell phones. >> That's right. >> Um we had pagers. But uh it was just Oh, he comes on for the the um the press. conference and he says, "Were you. starting Infinite Justice?" Like, "Oh, so much for OBSAC." And then they. changed the name. >> Yeah. Like thanks to Runsfeld. >> Yeah. >> Okay. You knew right away you were going. someplace. >> Oh, yeah. >> Did you know right away it was bin. Laden? >> Uh I didn't. No, I didn't know that. right away. I just. >> a lot of the military guys had guessed,

you know. >> Yeah, >> people who were tuned in. >> We were, you know, we were going after. him. I might have even put it in the. book uh in 999 2000, you know, when they. did the big TAM strike, the tomahawks. >> Yeah, you did put it in the book and. Bill Clinton did not authorize the. strike, >> right? So, the Clintons wouldn't. wouldn't authorize it. >> In a hindsight, you know, I write that, you know, >> you thought it was an okay call. >> The equipment and the techniques at the. time were brand new. >> Yeah. you know, that we ended up using. in Afghanistan. But I don't know that it.

would have gone well, you know, in Yeah. But it might have been okay. >> I mean, you think about what might have. been, you know, my gosh, good gracious. to have thought. >> Yeah. >> You know, to have gotten him if we if we. could have in 99 and spared the world. everything that would happen. >> Trust me, you know, we I was at Tora. Bora in 2001. Uh I saw you did an. interview with MCI. >> Yes. So fun. >> Right. So he was one of the guys I was. carrying in. >> and um. >> you know they did that crazy ceasefire.

for some reason. >> and he got away. >> you know I mean we had him on the ropes. injured. >> but uh you know it's [sighs]. you know when they got him I remember. just thinking. >> finally. >> Yeah that was such a moment. It was. crazy. It's like, and I know in the. steel community there's a it's. controversial like you bring up Rob's. name and I adore him because they're all. like you don't take credit but meanwhile. it's like okay that happened through a. series of events and it it was such a. historical mission. I think it's much.

better that we know. I really think. there's so so much value to. >> him in particular because he's an. incredible storyteller and communicator. to have come forward and said this is. what we did and he didn't make it all. about himself. He talked about his role. but he talked about everybody's role. I. I just think he did us all such a. service because it only increased our. respect for the steel community. Think. about this exponentially. >> If you never tell any of the story, right, this is what I I struggled with. writing this book and you know sent it. through the Pentagon. They did their.

little cuts on it, but essentially they. didn't really change the story. But if. you know when I was talking to the. public affairs at the 160th they're like. we're uh you know we're quiet. professionals which is true but you. can't be what they call a silent. professional meaning you don't tell. anything. >> because you know where's your tax. >> quiet professional is one thing silent. is a different. >> Yeah. Yeah. So you know I'm probably one. of the more vocal for the nightstalkers. Uh, you know, Mike Durant did something, you know, after Moadishu. Um, he had two.

books. You know, Rob, you know, he he. always speaks highly of me. So, I got. nothing bad to say about him. >> That's good. >> I will not have Rob bismerched in my. presence because I just adore the guy. I. think he's so great and he's done so. much for our country. But I understand. that that with within the SEAL community. and and I'm sure beyond um there is some. constrnation about talking, you know, about the missions or anything. You. know, most military guys are so against. anything that would sound self. arandizing, >> which is why, you know, we love them and. >> and we're all we admire that.

>> We're an all volunteer force, you know. So, if you don't have somebody want to. join you because they just don't know. anything about you, >> they're not going to join. >> Yes. You know, >> exactly. What a better what better way. of recruiting is there than to tell at. least a few of the stories or or what. you can tell around the stories. Um, okay. So, let's go back. So, 911. happens. You you mentioned you're in. Louisiana, you're watching it, you know. you're going to get deployed, >> and you do get deployed. And tell us. about the horse soldiers. >> Horse soldiers,

>> right? So ODA 595, operational. detachment alpha 595. They're our fifth. group, uh, which is at Fort Campbell, Kentucky. And ironically, they were a. Marops team, maritime operations. And. the mission I was doing at or at Pulk. when the towers came down was maritime. operations which is kind of funny. I end. up in the desert but uh we get to. K2 Kiabad. >> which is Kari Kabad. So it's um.

Usbekistan. So it's just to the north of. Afghanistan and we've got this old. Soviet. >> air base that turns out had radioactive. materials left behind. Yeah. >> So my arm's a little shorter now. [laughter] But um our mission at the. time is personnel recovery or PR, right? The idea is we're going to go bomb the. heck out of the Taliban and a little bit. of retribution because the idea is to. get through the Taliban to Bin Laden. So. you first you have to, you know, soften. them up a little bit. So our job was if.

somebody were to go down in Afghanistan. or what we call denied territory, we. would go rescue them. That lasted a. couple of weeks. >> Just other pilots. >> Yeah. other pilots, other, you know, the. bombers and and uh at the time you had. B-52s, B1's, B2s, and F-14s off the. carriers. That's all that was flying. over. >> B2s are aren't the. >> the stealth fighters, the stealth. bombers. Yeah. The big wing. >> Yes. That isn't that what we used in. Iran? You know, like. >> in the first Yeah. And that. >> in June. >> Yeah. >> The B2 bomber. >> Yeah.

>> That stealthy looking scary spaceship. >> They were taking off. They were taking. off out of the US and coming to bomb, >> right? Not not stopping for refueling, >> right? So anyway, we were going to. rescue them if they were to go down. >> Okay. >> Oh wow. >> And what we did not know was that there. was a what they call a UW campaign, unconventional warfare with the Green. Berets, and they're going to come in, link up with the Northern Alliance. factions, and fight the Taliban. >> Our NATO allies. >> Well, uh I wouldn't call them well, the. NATO allies came in to the fight, but.

the Northern Alliance's Afghan forces. Oh, the General Do Fahim Khan, you know, those guys. Uh, as a matter of fact, what's his name? Um, Mass Masud, the I. can't think of his nickname. It was like. the wolf of the mountains or something. crazy like that. The al-Qaeda. assassinated him a day or two before 911. because they didn't want us to have an. ally to fight them in Afghanistan. They. killed him with a fake film crew, right? They blew up the camera and killed them. And there was no clear successor.

>> It's diabolical. And there was a problem. is no clear successor for us to deal. with which is so their plan sort of. worked. Yeah. But not really. >> because the CIA had been embedded around. the country and they hooked us up with. four or five different warlords. Uh. General Dostam was the one that we had. at Maseri Sharif in that area. So the. horse soldiers if you will, but they. didn't get that name until they. infilled. And I'll tell you why in a. minute. But uh so my job was to take. them in. This was uh October 19th. They.

took them in and there was another set. of Chinooks. >> as in 2001. >> 2001 right so we typically operate in. teams of two helicopters right you know. chalk one chalk two and they were going. up to the big mountains the 22,000 foot. mountains I was going to like 12 or. 14,000 so I could carry the entire team. which is 12 guys and their equipment as. opposed to normally would split them up. >> for redundancy and just more performance. for the aircraft. >> in the mountains and So they ended up,

what's his name? Uh, Fahhem was the. other warlord. And he said if he didn't. get his Green Berets first, he would not. only not cooperate with us, but he would. attack do them, you know, and then throw. our. >> These are our friends. >> Yeah. >> So great. >> He ended up being like the defense. minister or something when they formed. the government. But anyway, so they go. over uh they turn around the first night. for weather. They can't can't get. through the mountains. >> Next night they go back again. Same. thing happens. And that morning, you.

know, I'm all pissed off at my buddies. because they can't get the guys in. I. wasn't a very supportive. >> And these guys, the the ones who were. trying to drop are meant to be taking on. the Taliban in an effort to get one step. closer to Bin Laden. >> This isn't the 595 guys. They're they're. working with me. This is triple nickel. 555. >> Okay. >> Out of the same battalion. >> But the but the mission is take out. Taliban, get closer to Bin Laden. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> And so Donald Rumsfeld personally, well, actually his secretary calls the the. planning area. We're all asleep in the. day and uh this major we call him major.

Mark uh answers the phone and he hears. you know is this the you know dagger ops. in he's like yes who's this and he's. like please hold for the secretary. >> he's like secretary he's like this is. Donald Rumsfeld who am I talking to you. know and he's like. >> like the scariest man in Washington by. the way. >> you tell Maul Holland who was our. colonel at the time now general because. uh you tell him to get those teams in. tonight you've been given a lot of. equipment a lot of training a lot of. money spent You do it, Niha.

The game changed from there forward. >> Why hadn't you gone in at why was the. plan not to do it that night? >> Because, well, this was in the day and. it would have been a repeat of the next. night and I wouldn't have brought the. 595 guys in because we were always. trying to leave an aircraft as a spare. and we don't like to fly a single ship. So, if I gave I had to give one of my. Chinooks to the other team to carry what. they needed over the big mountains. >> Oh. So. >> that's why you had everybody. >> So now the game changed. I'm going to.

fly a single ship. Y. >> so by myself with all 12 guys in their. gear y. >> and I'm not going to have enough gas to. do it. >> So we do air refueling, >> but we at the time never planned on air. refueling being. an only way to get gas. You always had a. >> a spare gas somewhere. In this case, you. didn't. It was you either got your. tanker or you didn't. >> That's life or death. >> Yeah. So what they did is they gave me a. couple of armed Blackhawks. They're. called DAPs, direct action penetrators.

Fantastic aircraft. Very, very deadly. But it doesn't have the performance to. go into the mountains where I have to. take these guys. So he's going to take. me as far as he can. >> You have to go alone. >> And I like to, you know, uh, describe. this as like I was reading a book on. World War II, you know, the bombers. It's like, you know, the fighter cover. would go only so far and then, you know, either turn around or wait for you to. come back out. >> What was left would come out. So that. was the goal. We're going to go in. He'll hang out wherever he can. And uh. that started the night. So we um.

we took off. Oh, and by the way, uh the country of. Usuzbekistan, their military didn't. agree with us being there, so they. threatened to shoot us down. >> Oh. >> And so they had all these, you know, radar guided missiles. I mean, really. nasty things. So. >> why did it have to be done that night? Why was he so hasty? We were we were in. Afghanistan for 20 years. >> Well, we were supposed to be there a. couple weeks. >> Yeah. At the beginning. Yeah. >> We were we were told. >> that old chestnut. >> Yeah.

>> that's raised its ugly head again. recently. >> Get get bin Laden, get out. That that. was our plan. >> And um. so we uh we take off and uh I got the. jammers running, you know, so if they. they lock onto me, I can jam them with. the radar jammers and I'm flying down. low on the train in friendly territory. But not so friendly. Yeah. Friend of me. >> Right. So then I get across the first. set of mountains. I meet my tanker. I. get my first air refueling. And then I. go across the border. The Amodari is a.

river on the northern border. And I. remember, you know, saying, "All right, it's 10. minutes to cross the border." And my. heart was just jumping out of my chest. I mean, externally, we talk about, you. know, sounding and being calm, you know. So the crew the uh you know the teams. are hearing 10 minutes to border. crossing but in my mind it's something. much more insane. >> And can I just jump in and say like how. do you know where to go? Is there a GPS? Is it like. >> is there an actual GPS telling you where. to go? >> Yeah.

>> Like is cgraphy important for a pilot? Like you got to understand the maps and. >> Oh yeah. >> That's what would kill me. I might be. able to fly an airplane if I were on. like some sort of a drug that calms you. down. But um. >> well then you just let the you couple. press the button let her fly you. I just. can't I can't I have no sense of. direction. I would definitely have been. in North Korea when I was doing that. North Korea like Hi. Hi. Sorry. I My. bad. >> Well, Nightstalkers are known for their. navigation skills as part of the. >> I admire that. I deeply admire that. Yeah. It must be wonderful when you go. to the mall and you can't remember where.

you parked. I can't Well, >> that doesn't happen to you. >> Talk to my wife about that. I can't get. out of a parking lot. Save my [laughter]. life. But I can get there, >> right? And if anybody locks on you with. a man pad, you're good. You know what to. do. Honey, get that flare in the back of. the car. Yeah, but I'm still stuck in a. parking lot. But. >> okay, so back to you and your your heart. is racing, but you're projecting common. cool. You got 12. night horses. Is that. >> uh Well, the they're green berets, right? Fifth group, >> and they're going to be called soldiers.

>> Horse soldiers because after I get them. in, they end up riding horses and. cavalry charges with the Northern. Alliance. So they're doing uh GPS and. laserg guided munitions while riding. horses. >> That's next level sophistication. >> That's what they make their movie about. It's pretty insane. >> And old school as well all at once. So. when you actually dropped these guys. off, are you so relieved? I mean it do. you have the moment of like dear God, thank you. >> Yeah. So it but before that we're flying.

along my DAPs with me, right? They're. they're at my five and 8:00. So, >> for part of it anyway, >> but we you can't see out the window like. it's dark and it's really dark and it's. like, "Wow, I don't see the mountains. anymore." So, I turned the search light. on and there's a saying in flying that. if you don't like what you see in the. search light, turn it off. [laughter] Uh. cuz what we saw was dust. It just mean a. dust storm. So, you know, I've got the. radar is up and I can see the terrain. with the radar and the DAPs are tucked.

in as tight as they can on me because. their night vision goggles can see the. heat from my engines. So, there's two. circular orbs in the back, right? That. the engine exhaust. And as we increase. power, obviously, they get hotter and. they can tell we're on a climb. So, they. just sort of climb and stay with it. >> Well, one of them uh couldn't see us. anymore, so he had to break off. And. then the other one turned around as. well. And then the colonel, the. battalion commander is in my jump seat. So the jump seat is like I'm sitting in. the left seat. There's a right seat.

pilot right about here. And I could hit. him. And right between us and just. behind us is the air mission commander. So he's the, you know, guy really. responsible for the decisions that are. being made. And he goes, "Al, what are. we going to do?" And I said, "Sir, I. think we just TF train following radar.". And he goes, >> "What train following radar?". >> So So the I'll tell you in a minute. >> I was turn the around. This is. terrifying. We're all gonna die. >> We're gonna TF. And he goes, "Uh, okay. Execute." Right. And I'm thinking, "Holy. crap." I didn't know the SEC def had.

just called and said, "Get those in no. matter what.". >> Oh. >> So, I'm like, "All right, Jethro, my. co-pilot from West Virginia, they said, uh, press a button, the cues come up, and the cues for the radar keep you 300. feet above the terrain, right? So, it'll. descend you, climb you in the mountains, uh, fly in between the mountains, and. but it's all a little video game that. he's he's moving the controls based on. the cues that he's seeing on the. >> So, it's not automatic pilot. It. >> it is nowadays, but it wasn't then. It. was all what we call commanded.

>> So, he's flying this thing. And the. reason we weren't allowed to use this at. the time for real is because in training. was because like um your iPhone ever. bricked up on you like just sort of. locked up and you had to do a hard reset. or maybe a laptop. >> delete. >> The radar would do that just out of the. blue. Oh my. >> So here you are in the clouds in the. mountains at 3. >> and you're like rainbow wheel. >> And so all you can do and we train for. this but once again not for real. And uh.

the pilot slows back to what we call the. best climb air speed. Pulls in all the. power you got and you climb like your. life depends on it because it does you. know and because remember I told you. about the PK the probable kill. >> Yep. >> Uh so a missile may have you know 10 20%. you know with with counter measures. Uh. the ground has a PK of 100%. >> Yeah. >> So you run into the mountain. >> you're never even going to know. Yeah. And the mission is failed and our goal. is to succeed. So,

he's climbing. I'm pulling circuit. breakers and resetting things and we get. it back and then I figure out what it. what the problem was and we kind of do. some things to get around it. >> Control all delete. >> pretty much. Yeah. >> And we end up going over the last. ridgeel line with these guys. We're. going to meet up with the the Northern. Alliance. soldiers, if you want to call them that, fighters. And what's interesting is. there's a ZPU234. It's a fourbarreled.

23mm anti-aircraft gun on the other side. of a small hill. So we had done the you. know. >> this is what's waiting for you. >> that if I don't if I screw this up. that's what's waiting for me. So there's. a group of guys and then the gun and in. between them is a small hill that as. long as they can't see me they can hear. me all they want but if they can't see. me they can't shoot me. And the idea, you know, I did the math and the the. navigation around specifically so that. when I came across the final ridge, they. wouldn't have a line of sight on me, so.

they couldn't shoot me. But we've got to. descend, you know, four or 5,000 ft in. about a mile, which is really difficult. to do. And if you go long, which you. normally would, that gun's going to tear. us to pieces. So instead, we do these. like we call them S turns, right? You. just S turn it back and forth. So you're. losing your altitude laterally instead. of going long. And so my co-pilot is I'm. doing it. And then um we get to the. bottom and I'm on a lefthand turn. I. know he's out to the right, but I'm at.

like 100 feet now. And I should be what. we call in short final set up with all. the controls kind of centered up and you. you press these little buttons that the. magnets will keep the controls where. they're supposed to be. So you have you. just fight the springs, you know, as. opposed to moving the hydraulics. And I. go, Jay, Jethro, can you can you see the. LZ? And he say, "Yeah." I said, "What's. the LZ?". >> Uh, landing zone. >> Oh, >> right. So, this is where we're supposed. to land. And I said, "All right, you. have the controls." And I just screwed. him because now he's got to take the.

controls after I just whip this thing. around and he's got to get us lined up, set up the thing. >> He's like, I I've got him. You sure? You're doing so well. >> But I will tell you, he was one of the. best dust landing pilots I've ever met. >> So, he's better than me. >> Well, maybe, [laughter] but no, he's he. he probably is. So he he does it and as we come in that. it's like a talcum powder d talcum. powder dust and I'm convinced I'm. looking at the display and I'm like.

we're going backwards. We're going to. crash, you know. So we the idea would be. >> I'm getting JFK Jr. vibes here. >> Yeah, it's along those lines, right? >> You don't know. >> whether you're up or down. It's up. Oh. wow. >> Except I feel the a landing gear touch. the ground. >> Oh, >> you know, and I just told him to go. around. So, he's starting to pull the. power and we're going to take off again. and try to come around. Hopefully, the. gun doesn't get us. >> And uh now I'm pushing on the controls. to make it go down to land, right? You. realize you are landing. >> It's like he he got us on the ground. I.

just got to get the forward gear down. >> So, he realizes at some point. >> uh what I'm doing and he lets it lets it. go and then the dust kind of settles and. we're surrounded by. >> you know Afghan fighters in traditional. Afghan. >> So, now what? Well, now I got to wonder. is the right guys, right? Because. there's no, you know, so the the team. leader gets off. >> Possible, >> right? And you know, in 12 Strong, they. get off and I all hug and stuff, you. know, he he gets off, they go talk, we're all on go. We're ready to defend.

ourselves and uh he looks back at me and. just gives me a thumbs up. >> That that's a ballsy guy who went out to. have a little chat, not knowing. >> Yeah, those what if it's not friendly? >> Those guys are amazing. But uh so we. took off. We went back, repeated the. same thing back, got air refueling again. from the Air Force tanker and then came. back and I remember uh landing at Kari. Canabad. when you went out and came back on those. first days, everybody came out to see. you off, you know, the the base.

commander, the chaplain, you know, the. all the people wanted to see you and we. come back and everybody's like big, you. know, a. >> but we're just so [music] like spent. from the adrenaline dump. Hey, thanks for watching today's full. episode. If you're new here, throw us a. subscribe. See what you think. Stay in. touch. There's plenty more goodness. where this one came from. As always, we. really do value your feedback. So, email. me, too. Megan megnancell.com.

or just leave a comment down below. I do. read them. I meander over and I scroll. through and I find them very. entertaining and really appreciate the. feedback. But in any event, join the. community by becoming a subscriber. So. you miss nothing. We value your support. We may not always agree on positions, but as you know, I'm very open-minded to. people who disagree with me. That's how. I learn. So thanks and thanks for. trusting us to always talk about it. openly, honestly, and with provocative. conversations. Are you feeling sluggish,

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first subscription order. You do that. when you're checking out. That's a rm. a.com. gyn or just enter that code Megan when. you're checking out. >> My references are so weird. Forgive. [music] me Alan. All I'm thinking about. is Little House in the Prairie and Mary. Engles. She married Adam. They were. blind and she was leaving and he said, "I'll be waving as you drive away.". That's what they're saying to you. It's. a dust storm. You can't see them. They. can't see you, but they want you to know.

they're rooting for you. They're there. I love that they show up. >> Yeah. You know, as a matter of fact, when we left on the mission, they they. had to tug the aircraft out from. parking, right? So, they have a track. aircraft tractor called a tug and they. pull it out with a toe bar and they put. it where you u have a clear, you know, spin up your rotors and stuff. And I'm. walking along with my hand on the fuel. tank. It's dark. Uh I'm looking up at. the stars. It's crisp night and I could. see Orion. So Orion is my favorite. constellation because every time I saw.

it, life went good, you know. So it's. got to be my lucky thing, you know. >> But as I'm walking out, everybody's. watching me walk by in the mud. You. know, the the taxi was all mud. It's. that uh. >> You must have felt like a badass. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It was I mean, this is right after 911. We're gonna take the fight to the enemy. >> FNA. >> And this it felt good. >> Yes, I'm sure it did. Can I ask you when. you were in school, were you really good. at math? Did you take physics? >> No. Terrible at math.

>> really? Because I feel like while you're. up there, you were doing calculations by. the millisecond. >> You do? I mean, I can I can save my life. with it, but [laughter]. >> but no, I'm not any good at math. >> So, you are good at I was more into. history and you know. >> you're good at it but maybe you just you. weren't taught right or you know. >> well I was good at the math that. mattered. >> Yeah. >> You know. >> Yeah. Yeah. Cuz that clearly and. geometry. >> that was kicking in for you up there. >> Yeah. >> So so how does that conclude? So.

the so they go do their thing uh that. the ODA and a couple of days later uh. they take Maseri Sharif which is the key. to the north and the Taliban. um withdrew to Kabul and then a couple. of weeks later now in the meantime we're. still doing you know in the movie it's. like one ODA out there one team of Green. Berets but I think we put 21 teams in. total. Oh, >> over the course of like the first two, three weeks and then General Dostam.

decided to take Kabool. So, everybody. back in our command is telling the Green. Beret captain, tell him no. Advise him, no, we're not ready to do that. Maybe in. the spring, right? And this is a. November, December time frame of 2001. And he is, you can't stop him. And so, all we can do now is support him. And he. took Kabool in like a week. >> Wow. Wow. >> And they were expecting, you know, a. year or so, but the Taliban just fled. And that's how we got the embassy back.

>> Kabul. >> Okay. >> Yeah. And then we just kept doing I told. you we did 21 teams total between the. two flights of two. >> and we just kept doing it night after. night pushing the aircraft. The aircraft. crews kept those things up. >> When you think about the fact that it. would be another 10 years before we. actually did get bin Laden. >> Yeah. >> You know, it's like we were we were. pushing pedal to the metal. We weren't. wasting time. We were getting the job. done. But the the big gorilla. >> we So it was November of 2001. We get.

told, "Hey, send two aircraft to Bram. Air Force Base down in Afghanistan. We. get this thing called Tora Bora." We. think we got Bin Laden, right? So they. start that. >> This is what this is when we actually. did get him or this. >> No, this is this is when Yeah. >> So this is 2001. And while those guys go. down there, um, my job is to fly around. Afghanistan and move all of the Green. Berets to C130 capable air strips, meaning they can be resupplied now by.

Air Force airplanes instead of us. Meaning, we're going home. This is. November, like Thanksgiving 2001. We're. going to go home as soon as the Tora. Bora campaign's done. M. >> and then uh the guys that were down. there only packed like a three-day bag. They stayed for about five days and then. they're like, "Hey, we got to swap out.". So I took my flight down there with a. better supplied group, you know, to stay. longer. >> and we're going to finish this up. >> And then he had to cease fire. He gets.

away. >> and we just keep going. We We didn't. stop 10 years. I did 10 10 years worth. of deployments. >> Really? >> Yeah. Back at home, >> you had some troubles in your personal. life. >> Yeah. >> With your wife, your wife, your first. wife, Linda. >> Yeah. >> Was Was this the period that you write. about in the in the book where she. started to deteriorate? >> Yeah. She uh it's well started not uh at.

the end of that deployment. So, March. 2002, I was shot down during Operation. Anaconda. >> Yes. Right. Right. >> That's where the two medals of honor. were issued for Brett Sinsky and John. Chapman. >> So, it was interesting because I I get shot. down. I get rescued. I'm brought back to. a Ford operating base and one of the CIA. personnel comes up and hands me a. satellite phone. He says, "Mr. Mack, you. probably want to call your wife. This is. going to hit CNN in five minutes." And I.

I can't because if I let her know I'm. okay. Because here's what the report. was. We had uh was uh two shinooks shot. down, eight killed was what CNN. reported. >> What year? >> Uh 2002. >> Yeah. >> March 2002. And. the odds are that's me because I'm the. senior flight lead and my wife is going. to hear that. But the problem is if she. knows that I'm okay and all the wives.

are hanging out at the commander's house. watching the news coverage and waiting. for news. If she's calm, they know it's. not me, so I can't can't do it. Right. This is my professional. >> uh. >> because the odds go up. It's one of. their guys. >> Yeah. And and there's a process to. notifying somebody that they have killed. an action. And um. we get out of there and we're coming. home and she found out that I had an. opportunity to call her. >> Uh oh. >> And it did not go well. And she never.

forgave me. Never forgave me. >> Oh. And so after that she was addicted. to prescription opioids, you know, pain, methadone was her her thing. And then. that wasn't enough. So she augmented it. with alcohol. And this is all, you know, taking place over years, you know, but. it's it's slowly getting worse. I had. ups and downs. And I'm still deploying. and coming home and deploying and coming. home. And even when you come home, you're not really home. You're out in. what we call the environment training. You're out on the Atlantic landing on.

ships. you're in the mountains of. Colorado getting good there. You're. flying in the cities in LA, New York, so. you're always gone anyway, you know, and. so she, you know, [clears throat]. a good example when people thank me for. my service, it feels a little odd. because I feel like I don't really. deserve that thanks because I did it. because I wanted to. The families kind. of got dragged into it, you know? I. mean, they had a vote to an extent, >> but, you know, they're the ones that. really need the the thanks. I mean, the.

spouses generally enter into it. willingly. The children get dragged. along. >> Yeah. >> Um, so you're dealing with that like. your wife's not doing well and the. marriage is not doing well. >> Can we should we we should back up and. talk about operation anaconda. >> Okay. >> Um because the the little radars the. flares did not work. >> No, but Okay. So. there are different threats to an. aircraft. You have um IR threats,

infrared, that's the heat seekers. You. have radar threats, which is radar. guided equipment. Both of those you have. countermeasures for, right? You you can. tend to mitigate or even defeat those. systems most often. Then you have a. ballistic threat, which is machine guns, rifles, uh rocket propel grenades, right? Those are not guided. If somebody. shoots at you, depending on how good. they are, how good their gas was, how. far you are, you're going to get hit,

you know, and uh that's what happened to. me. It was a rocket propelled grenade. came through the side of the aircraft. while the seals were getting off on the. top of this mountain, Tucker, >> now called Robert's Ridge to many. people. Um yeah, and it was uh wasn't. anything I could do about it once it. hit. >> How many were on board? >> Uh let's see. So, my crew of uh. seven and then seven seals. Yeah. So, 14.

people on board. >> And so it hit not your side. >> Yeah. Hit on my side. I watched I. watched it come in. >> and uh it came in slow motion almost, you know, like that time compression. You could see it. >> I could see it coming at me. Sparks. coming out of the back and it hit, >> you know, um about two feet behind me. Now, behind me is what's called the. flight control closet. It's this uh. closet full of actuators and hydraulics. that when you move the controls, they go.

through this series of bell cranks and. gizmos. They go to the top. We call this. PFM, right? Pure magic. Uh you know, is. how the Chinook flies. But, um. >> it missed that. If it had hit it, we. would have been done. If they had shot. forward, they would have hit the. cockpit. We would have just died. Yeah. that would have been done. And if they. had gone another foot backwards, they. would have hit the main fuel tank and we. probably wouldn't be here. So they they. ran it right through the one spot they. could do the minimum danger. >> and it came through the aircraft,

exploded inside. >> Now typically, you know, when these. things hit armor, the over pressure is. what kills everybody inside, but the. doors are all open, >> right? >> And so there's no real over pressure. So. it comes through this side, hits the. ammo can, metal and bullets are flying. everywhere. uh and it goes out the other. side. Put a couple big holes in the. rotor blades and it took out three. separate electrical systems as it all. went through. Now they're they're. geographically placed so that you have. redundancy and you know battle damage.

can be kept to a minimum. In this case. they got it. It was like a shotgun all. >> three of them gone. So the cockpit. of an MH47 E- model, an Echo, uh, is. four television screens or. multi-function displays, MFDs, and all. of the information for the flight, you. know, the engine operations, the rotor. RPM, all the things that are important. are displayed on that. And uh, the guns, we have these things called miniguns. It's a six-barreled electric Gatling. gun. That's our self-defense. Those are.

AC powered. They run off the generators. They shoot 4,000 rounds a minute. So, I. mean, they're they're deadly when they. work, but with no electricity, >> they don't. >> they don't work. Now, since then, we've. put them on batteries instead of the. aircraft power. >> But anyway, so now I'm sitting in the. cockpit and it's night time. This thing. comes through, the screens all go blank, and you know how your your desktop. computer, especially your older ones, you can hear the fan. >> Yeah. >> You know, the cooling fan. >> Yeah. Well, all these black boxes have. cooling fans, so they make a lot of.

noise and all of a sudden they're just. spooling down, you know, and I'm like, "Oh, >> that's even worse.". >> But the rotor blades are still spinning, so the engines will run in what's called. reversionary mode. It's a backup mode. So, I can still fly. So, we're in the. middle of a engagement here where we. can't defend ourselves. So, we go to. take off and that's when Neil Roberts, uh, who was getting out of the aircraft. at the time, he was not plugged into the. communication system, uh, and he fell. out on top of with with my crew chief.

So, the crew chief fell out, but he had. a tether. >> So, >> oh my gosh, >> he was able to be retrieved. >> Uh, so we dove down the mountain trying. to get out of the enemy fire, regain. rotor RPM, and my intention is to crash. on the floor below, you know, a. controlled crash because I got one. engine, I think. >> Yep. And the crew chiefs are telling me, "Sir, we've both engines are running. You can level off." Like, "Are you. sure?" Right? Because I have no. indications in the cockpit. Yeah. Yeah. We hear both engines. So, I pull in the.

power. We level off. And now they tell. me, you know, Neil fell out the back. >> So, all right, we got to go back. So, we. turn around to go back into the top of. this mountain. And, uh, the controls stop moving. Can't. move any of the controls. Uh, >> oh. >> Right. So, I always give the example of. uh your car when you still had a key in. the ignition. Yeah. >> If you pull a key out, you can't move. the steering wheel. >> Yeah. >> No hydraulics, no move controls. So, uh. I'm like, "Guys, I'm sorry. We're done.

I can't do anything." So, for a minute. there, it's very surreal. I'm kind of. looking up at the stars. I look down and. I can see the battle down below me. The. big the 101st is down there fighting. Taliban. And uh I can see tracer fire. going back and forth and it's kind of. cool thinking this is my last view and. then all of a sudden the controls work. again. >> So one of the crew chiefs in the back. had a can of hydraulic fluid which is. you know not much bigger than this glass. and he's pouring it into a fill module.

which is meant to pop it off not to. service it. And he's got this little. handle and he's like pumping it like. feverishly and he's getting hydraulic. fluid back into the system. Now I can. fly. And I'm like all right here we go. We're back in the game guys. And I turn. back toward the the hill again. >> For how long? >> 50 seconds. >> Whoa. >> So 50 seconds goes by. I can't move it again. He puts another. can in. >> Are there a lot of cans? >> He's got three cans. >> Holy cow. >> So now I realize I can't reasonably land.

on top of the hill and get everybody. back off. And I'm still responsible for. the other SEALs, you know, and my crew. I can't just go down there and, you. know, hit the meat grinder. So my second. aircraft, Razer 04, is still out there. So I'm hoping he can go do the rescue. I. can't do it. I'm going to need to be. rescued. >> So instead, I turn now back to the. battle. And the idea is to identify a. friendly position and land near it. >> So I set up a rate of descent. And I'm.

sorry for being technical here, but you. know, about 300 foot a minute, about 70. knots. And the idea is that maybe. if I lose the controls again when we get. to the bottom, maybe that's a survivable. impact, you know? I mean, it's going to. be ugly, but maybe somebody lives. >> And we get down to the he puts the fluid. in the last time and we get down to the. bottom and what looked like nice smooth. terrain as I got about 75 feet off the. ground turned into these, you know, hills, you know, rolling. Right.

>> So, now I've got my landing area in. sight. But the aircraft is now sliding to the. right and I cannot move the the control. that would stop that. So there's a. saying we have in aviation, never quit. flying the aircraft. So what else have I. got? I have other controls. So now I. push on the pedals and the aircraft. swings in the direction that we're. sliding. So now I'm straight onto the. hill and then I can't move those anymore. and we hit the ground at a reasonable. speed and rate of descent. Then I pushed.

the last control down. We settled on a. slope and we lived. >> I remember thinking. >> a little bit of an exploit of we're. alive. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Never quit flying. >> Yeah. And we shut it down. Razor 04 came. picked us up about 45 minutes later. Uh. bringing the seals back in and. >> you were a hero. They knew what you had. done. >> Yeah. Well, it is funny because Brit. Sloinsky, one of the Medal of Honor. recipients, uh he's rallying his guys. All right, we're going to go back up to.

the hill. And I'm I got our map out and. I'm like, "That's not the mountain. That's the mountain." And he's like, "No, we were only flying for like 3. minutes." I said, "Yeah, like you know, 90 miles an hour, >> right?". >> For 3 minutes. I said, "We we're like 10. miles away.". >> Oh. >> And he's like, "Oh, >> it's good thing you knew that.". >> Yeah. >> Back to the map knowledge. Yeah. >> That would come in very handy. >> Yeah, sure did. >> So that was Operation Anaconda. >> Mhm. is the biggest mission you were ever.

part of the retrieval of Marcus. >> As far as what I can talk about? Yeah. >> Oh, there's, you know. >> Yeah. You can tell me you'd have to kill. me. >> Yeah. >> And all of my listeners, too. >> I'd get in trouble. [laughter] I don't. want to do that. >> We don't want that. >> But, um, yeah, that was a biggie. I. mean, that's probably the toughest. flying I've done in my entire life. one. of the most well-known and shocking. incidents of. >> two weeks of of hell, you know, flying. into there because we were trying to.

find all the bodies because. >> well, for what's what just the the. audience may not. >> Yeah. >> be familiar. So, what's the first you. heard about is this guy missing or was. it when the helicopter went down? >> Yeah. So it starts out. >> rescue. >> operation red wings which is a. conventional operation with the US. Marines but in order to get our. helicopters the special operations. helicopters you have to have a special. operations component in the mission. So. they said, 'Well, it would be great if. we got some special forces guys up on.

the hill overlooking the village because. what happens all the time when you when. you come in with helicopter assaults is. people hear you, you know, most of the. time and they tend to run, right? So if. you've got, >> you know, five different buildings where. the bad guy could be uh and they run. Now you got to find these what we call. squirters. So the idea was these four. guys tend to be seals. Marcus Lutral was. one of them are going to establish what. we call pattern of life. They're going. to watch the village from a distance and.

see if they can identify our HVT or. highv value target and decide which. building he's actually in so that when. we come in if somebody squirts from. there you kind of narrow down where to. look. >> Okay. >> So they're going to do that and we had. two different types of shinooks at the. time. I was flying the MH47 Echo which. had the terrain falling radar and all. the stuff I talked about and the third. battalion out of Savannah who was doing. the mission uh had MH47D.

AWC or adverse weather cockpit. So it's. a fairly capable aircraft but it's on. the way out. It's one of our original. high-speed aircraft. Mhm. >> But the difference is they don't have. all the same equipment that I have for. survivability, but that means the. aircraft is lighter and has more lift. capability. So they're going to take all. these Marines in while I sit on what. they call QRF, quick reaction force. And. so, uh, the team is compromised. And.

>> Marcus' team, >> Marcus' team is compromised during the. daylight. and I walk into the the. tactical operations center and there's, you know, a lot of attention going to. the big TV screens, you know, we call. ISR, uh, intelligence surveillance. Uh, I don't even know what the R stands for, reconnaissance. There you go. Um, and I. sit down next to the colonel who's in. charge with my cup of coffee. I'm like, "Hey, sir, what's going on?" He goes, "Uh, team's compromised. Uh, we launched. the QRF. Quick reaction for us." Well,

I'm the QRF starting it, you know, a. couple hours ago. And I was like, "Hey, sir, that's me. Why? Who's who's. flying?" "Oh, it's Major Reich." You. know, the guys that were on it. previously because they decided to. launch part of Red Wings early and. that's what they were going to do. So, like it made sense in their mind to do. that. So, they go running down there and. I'm just sitting there watching my. coffee, watching the the tracker, you. know, showing their aircraft position. And as they come to a hover to kick. ropes, they're gonna fast rope.

Fast rope is about a, you know, between. 60 and 90 foot rope that's about, you. know, this big, like, like the. oldfashioned fire poles, you know, in a. firehouse. >> And they're going to slide down that. because there's no place to land. And. when they come to a hover, I watch them. kick ropes from the there's an A-10. flying around with what they call light. >> You can you can see this how again? >> Through the there's a an airplane. overhead with a a. a fleer uh forward-looking infrared. So, it's a. >> okay. >> uh it's like night vision but it sees.

differential in heat. >> It's like what we see sometimes they. show us the situation room video. It's. like that what that looks like. Okay. >> Yeah. So, I'm watching that. I watch the. aircraft [clears throat] come into a. hover on the terrain. They're kicking. ropes and all of a sudden I see uh what. looks to be an RPG shot and the aircraft. explodes. >> and limps off uh off frame and it came. apart. >> Oh my god. >> All those those men down the slope. The.

aircraft came apart in lots of little. pieces. >> and you knew. >> Yeah. And so the chalk 2, the second. aircraft calls us back on the satellite. radio and he's like, "Hey, you know, lead's down. You know, what do you want. me to do?" And so they told him to back. off because got to assess the situation. And now they're going to launch my QRF, my quick reaction force with the SEAL. team out of Dan Neck. And so we run. [clears throat] down to the aircraft. Crew chiefs have already got it up to. engine start for me. I get in, strap in, start the engines. I don't have to go.

through any of the other process. >> There's not like a big planning meeting. prior to that. >> No, this is get there as fast as you can. and respond, which is what they did. >> You're trying to save lives. You're. trying to I mean that's why. >> you're trying to put shooters on target, you know, uh so they can use their. weapons. But the thing is, you know, I'm. hauling ass there now with these guys. with 21, you know, dev group seals. But I'm thinking to myself, what am I. going to do different than what they. did? That was the only clearing on top.

of that mountain. >> Yeah. >> And I'm doing, you know, close to 200. miles an hour. You know, I'm doing 170. >> Is that fast for helicopter? I don't. know. That's really fast for I'm shaking. the rivets out of this thing. >> and I'm just thinking I'm gonna be there. in like 10 minutes. What am I going to. do? >> And then I got called and got told to. divert to a Ford operating base at. Jalalaban or Jbad which is where they. did the Bin Laden raid out of. >> but uh we got there and the idea go. >> the idea was to come up with a better. plan. >> which I'm glad somebody. >> thought that through.

>> Yeah. >> Because we probably would have just done. the same thing. >> Oh. >> So so so then what happened? you you you. go to J. >> So over the course of the next two. weeks, we continue to bring rangers and. seals in and green berets to search the. area for bodies and the original four. seals. >> Yep. >> So what we don't know yet is that Marcus. Latrell has been uh taken care of by a. local. Yeah. Right. He's he's being. protected. Interestingly, [clears throat].

about a night before that, we saw. infrared strobes all over the valley, right? So, each each pilot has a IR. strobe to identify yourself, and you can. only see it with night vision goggles, and you have a survival radio at a. certain frequency, and I remember. telling my crew, "If we see an IR. strobe, we're going to go check it out, and if they give the right visual. signals, we are going to land and pick. them up." Okay, [clears throat] no one. disagrees. We're flying along. The crew. chiefs see what they think is an Irish.

strobe. I fly around. I look and I'm. thinking, I don't I don't see it. I'm. not going to go to unless I know for. sure. So, we go back and I store the. coordinates in the computer. You know, I. press a little button says, okay, here's. what it is. We get back to Bram and I remember. thinking, nah, that wasn't anything. So, I don't retrieve the coordinates from. the the aircraft. So, we go back, you. know, we we do an afteraction review, take a shower, go to bed, and now I'm. like, what if it is?

>> So, I had to go wake somebody else up. because I wasn't allowed to drive on the. flight line because I can't drive in a. parking lot. And uh he drives me down. I. pull the coordinates out. I give them to. the intel guys. I said, I don't know if. this is anything. So, they sent those. coordinates to a team of Green Berets. who went to check out the coordinates. And it turns out it was a trap for. helicopters. The IR strobe was out in a. small opening. >> Oh my gosh. >> And there were a group of Taliban. underneath a waterfall of all things uh.

with a clear line to the landing zone. So had I landed, they'd have blown us to. pieces. >> Thank god you didn't do it. >> Yeah. >> Thank god you your instincts told you. no. >> Yeah. And but you know it's one of those. things where you know had it been one of. our guys and I landed you know all of a. sudden yay. >> Yeah. >> But in this case not so much. >> Do you do are you a man of faith? Do you. feel like there's any divine. intervention? >> Yeah, I mean I don't consider myself. like overly religious, but I believe in. in God and I believe in, you know, some. kind of intervention. And I think many.

times in my life, I have been saved by. some power beyond me. That's for sure. >> Yeah, it certainly sounds like that. >> So, we've retrieved all of the bodies. but one. >> from the Blackhawk. >> from the previous Chinook and the. original team. So, we're still missing. >> somebody. And uh actually we might have. been missing two, but we're doing what's. called a dignified transfer practice. So. >> to send the bodies of our fallen home, there's a you take a casket with a flag.

and you march it over to the C17. There's a ceremony that happens. >> We've all seen the the receiving end. over. >> Yeah. So we're practicing this, right? and one of my good friends, Master. Sergeant Trey Ponder. So, I was the. senior um MH47 pilot in the entire. regiment. He was the senior. non-commission officer. So, he and I. were the guys that were responsible for. making sure the air crews were always up. to standard and always up to date in. their techniques. And we did their.

evaluations and all that kind of stuff. And so I I sat this far away from him. for oh six years, you know, and he was. the one kicking the ropes out the back. and he was killed. So I'm carrying his. casket. >> Oh gosh. >> And uh our officer in charge comes. running and say, "Hell, someone's going to take your place." I'm. like, "Damn, sir." You know, we're doing. dignified transfer. And he's like, "Come. on, we got a survivor." So. somebody takes my place. We come back. We're in the the rescue operations.

center and we get presented with okay. uh somebody walked into a little Marine. Corps patrol base with the correct. information that we need that that it's. likely to be him. We uh had his beacon. location from his radio. So. >> you knew it was Marcus? >> Yeah. >> Not and not one of the other three. >> Yeah. >> Because it's a specific. >> Yeah. Each each person in in a threat. veer like that gets what's called an ISO. prep isolated personnel report and um on.

it you've got these little numbers, you. know, let's call it a 10-digit number. And so you tear off the the end or you. write it down, you give it to somebody. and say, "Hey, take this to somebody. that can help me.". >> And there's instructions on the back of. the the uh the bloodshed, you know, not. the isopre bloodshed. Um, ISOP prep is the questions you want. to be asked, >> right? >> So, they ask him those questions over. the radio. They verify. So, they've got. him verified and u so now we got to go.

get him. And the problem with where he. was. is there's, you know, mountains and. there's essentially three ways in to. where he is. One of them has clouds on. it all the time. So the third battalion. Chinooks, the D models, can't fly. through that. They don't have the radar. that I have. So I can do it, but I only. have two helicopters. The other the. other six are these older versions. And. >> why why is it bad to just have the two. helicopters? Like. >> because it's not enough uh not enough.

firepower, you know, you can't carry. enough people. >> So because you're trying to get actual. like shooters to go protect, >> right, >> you protect they have to be. >> you expect engagement when you get. there, right? Yeah. you're and it's not. going to be you because you fly the. plane. Yeah. Okay. >> So, I did end up uh one of the knights. coming in that way with only two and I. had the other guys go the other way and. the idea was to have noise from. different directions. Uh which comes. into the the Latrrell thing. So, we're. all talking about uh you know, he's on.

this building on a terrace field at the. bottom of the mountain. Uh we're gonna. send the Blackhawks from the Air Force. in there to get him. And I threw a fit. And I was like, "No way are they coming. in to do that because I happen to know, you know, I can do math. You know, not. very good, but I can do math." And I. know that the aircraft are too heavy. They don't have the performance to get. in there and get him out. >> The Blackhawks. >> The Blackhawks. >> And they said, "Uh, well, they stripped. them down. They took out the armor, the.

guns, the equipment, and they now. technically mathematically could fly in. there, you know, uh, totally undefended. And, and they go, Al, we're still. missing somebody. We were missing one. still. And we have to bring more people. in to the top 12,000 foot mountain. And, you know, the Blackhawk can't do that. So if you don't let them pick it up, if. you do the pickup of Latrrell, you're not bringing another, you know, 30 guys to the top of the mountain. because the weather is bad, right? The.

the weather is kind of coming in, waves, thunderstorms. And um I said, "Okay, >> they can't do that.". >> So he said, "Your choice, Al." And this. guy was smart. He he appealed to my. professionalism. >> He knew, >> "Okay, I'll buy off on that. I'm planning the. mission and I'm leading the whole thing. You know, they'll pick him up, but I'll. lead the mission. And the Air Force guy, yeah, okay. So, we came up with a a very. what I consider one of my artistic. pieces of work of deception,

uh, brute strength, speed, you know, and, uh, everybody worked together. It. was a wonderful operation. you know, Marcus puts in his book, he's like, you. know, I walk out the door and like. Taliban positions are blowing up and. yeah, I plan that, you know, and the Air. Force delivered. >> One of uh I love these interviews every. year and we we always do. We love. military and. >> we one year did um Marcus and his. identical twin.

>> Oh, right. >> Together, right? >> Yeah. Morgan. >> And um it was unforgettable exchange. Those two are incredible to together as. they talk about their experiences. But. >> Marcus was telling us his piece of it. and then Morgan was telling us what was. happening down in Texas at their ranch. >> and they were getting everyone's there. praying, you know, around the clock. >> and they didn't expect good news at all. >> And uh the moment when they got the call.

that he was okay, thanks to you and your. guys on the other side of the world. >> Yeah. Everyone went crazy. Like the family, the the friends, like the scene down. there, >> you know, I I talk about this all the. time where I get asked, "What's the most. rewarding missions that I do?" And does. it feel good to take out a bad guy? Yes. But I like when I say like, it's the. most rewarding to do kazak, casualty. evacuation, or personal recovery. Like. in this case, bring somebody back to.

their family that didn't think they were. going to get them. Mhm. >> And what I write in the book there, I. talk about uh this is the kind of stuff. you don't ne necessarily see in the. movies with all the cool guys stuff is. um you know, so I'm going night after. night what I consider the toughest. flying I've ever done. You know, evading. the threat, evading the weather all at. the same time. And we get back, we did a. memorial service. I walked off between. two bee huts. Bee huts are like these. plywood barracks that you stay in. I was. in the dark and I just sort of slumped.

down and cried and uh I didn't want. anybody to see me. >> and uh but so a couple of days later I'm. flying back to the states and they sent. a crew chief with me, one of the very. junior guys. It's like a go with Mr. Mack, you'll be all right, you know. So. we stopped in the Netherlands on the way. back and so I said, "Hey, let me buy you. a beer." So we're sitting there and he. goes, "Hey sir, I got to ask you how how. come you weren't scared?" He goes, "When. we went on that first mission," he goes, "I was scared shitless.".

>> I was like, "Uh, I was too." He's like, "But it didn't seem that way." I was. like, "Well, would it have been any. better?" He's like, "No, [laughter]. the rest of it, I'm sorry. I tear up a. little bit. It's it's emotional.". >> Why does that make you emotional? What. is it? >> Well, I think, you know, when I talk about doing the. mission, you know, it's always very. objective, very sterile. It's like, why. you do it, you know, the training, but. it's people, right? And that's why we. have Memorial Day is to um, you know,

honor them. >> Yeah. >> Oh, >> yeah. >> God bless you for saving so many. No, no, here. Hold on. I've got. >> No, this is the This is But this is the. side that uh. >> You're a hero with a heart. >> Yeah. This is the side that um you know. once again guys like me are out doing. the mission and now they're doing it you. know I'm done and there's guys rowing. the boat without me you know and that's. the thing you never really want to leave. you know you feel like I'm going to miss.

the next thing you know and like I ended. up I was in the training company. training new shinook pilots uh when they. got bin Laden and got by the very guy. the very flight lead that I always. thought would get him. >> Really? >> Yeah. Cuz we we would uh all through the. years we kind of knew where he was, you. know, and I say that, you know, with. understanding how intel works, right? >> You know, we knew, you know, if you put. your hand on a map, he's in that area, but. >> you can't actually Yeah. Right. Unless.

you know where he is. >> So, as you rotate out, your replacement. comes in. and you give him the intel and. okay, we're thinking, you know, here is. where he is, you know, and uh it's like. that guy's going to get him. And the guy. that always followed me turned out to be. the guy that actually got him. >> Oh, wow. So, were you jealous or were. you How did that Yeah, a little bit. >> You know, I mean, I don't know. Yeah. >> Yeah, of course. You wanted to be you. >> Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to be me. I want I. was just so glad they got him. >> Yeah. >> And. >> but it would have been thrilling to to. have been there.

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>> Master Chief Gothro was out there and. he's the one that would answer the. phone. And by this time there's anywhere. there's about 40 seals out there and we. would all pile into my father's bedroom. which was little bitty and. shoulder-to-shoulder and master chief's. on the phone. He's like, "Yes, sir. Roger that. Understood. Roger that. Yes, sir." And he dropped his head. And I mean, we lost it, right? We was. like, "Oh my god." You know, worst case. scenario. I'm sitting there staring at. him. Everybody was crying around. I was. in there staring at him and he he he. gives us a thumbs up. Anyhow, my parents.

came walking in and then some of my best. friends came walking in. They saw. everybody else crying. Mom loses it, dad. loses it. They're like, "No, no, no. They they found him. He's rescued." So, um I mean, I don't remember who it was. walked out to the crowd and said they. found him. And I mean, it sound like. Super Bowl. >> like I could hear it from Afghanistan. So all the but the problem with that was. all the all my friends and family were. celebrating the fact that we found my. brother but all the SEALs that were out. there and all the other and there were. some Marines and army and everybody had. just started to come out and spend time.

with us. We were still very stoic. because we're down we're down men. What a moment of like the greatest joy. you can possibly feel. But always as in-. with the military, worry, always. concern, always care for others. >> Yeah. And you know, that's the thing, you know, the families are back. You. know, um there were nights where the. weather was terrible and you couldn't. fly, right? And the ground force. couldn't go out because there's no stack.

overhead. you know, the uh the. supporting, you know, the fighters, the. ISR, the drones, all that stuff can't. fly in this horrible weather. So, what. we're doing is we're all playing Call of. Duty, right? All the computers are. linked together playing Call of Duty. >> and or watching movies on the server and. just kind of a downtime, right? Notebook. >> Yeah, guys. We're very We're very uh you. know, emotional. >> Sentimental. >> Sentimental is the right word. But um. often times somebody will say, "Hey. guys, do you realize right now our.

families think we are out getting a crap. shot at us right now and they have no. idea that it's not like that all the. time. You always think that people. overseas that they're uh. >> yes, >> you know, it's terrible all the time. >> Every second they're in harm's way. >> You know, oftentimes it's unpleasant. You know, the heat, the cold, being away. from your family, especially on holidays. and, you know, birthdays and Christmas. and stuff like that. Mhm. >> Um. >> I mean it's just like the constant worry. and the constant adrenaline, you know, that's what comes back to haunt so many.

of the guys upon return home. You know, like. >> talked about Dakota Meyers struggle to. reintegrate. and how he almost ended it all. He was. going to do it and an angel from heaven. took the bullets out of his gun. He had. the gun. He was going to do it. It's. very hard for a lot of the guys and gals. to reintegrate for all sorts of reasons. >> Yeah. >> And one of them is just with a constant. like years of being worried about.

getting killed and that the anxiety that. that can create in you. And then also. there's a different type that like needs. the adrenaline hit and can't find it. Then you got guys like MCI who are just. stone cold. He's like, you know, the. sheriff of Baghdad's like, I'm good. I. was good there and I'm good here. >> So where where did you fall? Where would. you fall? You know, the interesting. thing is in that 10 years of combat. deployment, so I did 17 deployments by. my count. >> Good gracious. >> Um the. right at the very beginning, I decided I.

was going to die doing what I was doing. >> Yeah. >> And so I just kept that mindset the. whole way through. Now, that doesn't. mean I wasn't scared, but I was often. convinced that I just was not going to. come home. And so what I tried to do and. my kids both have served, one's still in. the Navy, um is I tried to create. experiences and memories when I was. home. So I tried to be present when I. could be. And and the cool thing for me.

is, well, unfortunately, you know, Linda. died, you know, she overdosed and the. regiment was super with me, you know, the 160th. They they were like, "All. right, look, what job do you want? You. can deploy or not. You can. >> two boys still at home. >> Well, they No, they're in the army. >> Oh, they're This is where they were. already grown. >> Yeah. I didn't have So, this was in 2012. pass. >> Okay. >> But so, one was a crew chief in the. 160th. I shouldn't have crew chief. And. the other one was a F-18 Wizo, weapons. systems officer.

>> Wizo. Yes, I know. The Wizo. >> Yeah. He's basically a goose, you know. >> Yeah. Right. Right. >> But, uh, so, you know, they came back, but so now I'm alone with my dog. Scooter, you know, who probably saved my. life. the fact that I could just talk. with this little guy. Uh but the but the. regiment was great. They were like, "Hey, what do you want to do?". >> And I really had two jobs that were. interesting. One was uh the chief of the. aviation shootown assessment team, which. is kind of like the NTSB but for the. army. So somebody gets shot down, they.

send a team, they investigate the. wreckage, they try to figure out what. shot him down. >> That seems interesting for you. >> You know, it was the next best thing. Then I got offered uh to be the flight. detachment commander at West Point. So. that's essentially a VIP mission. You're. flying the general around, you know, superintendent to, you know, college. campuses. The Pentagon is his big thing, you know, >> and uh the skydiving team. >> Oh, that's. >> which turned out to be critical for me. So.

>> what I find interesting for this with. the people that have trouble, you know, um reintegrating. >> Yeah. is I considered West Point. assignment an off-ramp. It was if I had. just stopped being a flight lead like. just okay no more. I don't know how well. I would have done. >> you know not well at all I don't think. >> Y. >> but I went to West Point as the. commander. I had enough responsibility. to kind of keep me on my toes but yet it. wasn't the same kind of life or death.

>> decisions I was making. >> And I met the cadetses the jump team. my. very first mission as a you know as the. commander. We got to West Point, we. land, you do the season beginning safety. brief and all these uh these two seniors. come up to me the first season and like. hey sir we've heard all about you um. will you be our leadership mentor? I was like uh sure. I had no idea what. that [laughter] and failed right and. then he yay they run off. Turns out, you.

know, my responsibilities were to. essentially uh be a mentor to them to. what to expect when you get out because. they were going to graduate. You know, what's it like to deal with, you know, uh people you outrank like sergeants who. have a lot more experience? >> We're going to be in aviation. How do. you deal with warrant officers who have. all the experience, right? And so we. would and and they taught me how to. skydive, which is funny. I got my B. license with these guys. >> She's a thrill You're a thrillseker. You're you're like you don't care. You. don't have the same fear factor as the.

rest. >> Just amazing. But those guys, both of. them ended up flying Shinooks on the. 160th. >> Wow. >> Interesting. >> Oh, yeah. Your unit, >> you know, back on the subject of when. you said I I just decided I was going to. die, >> you know, and accepted that, which is. sort of how you were able to do all the. risky things. >> It reminded me of a conversation I had. with the skier Bodie Miller. >> Yeah. >> He once told me that um you know, because I asked him like, "What made you. so good?" like how how are you so much. better than everybody else and and.

that's extremely risky too? I mean. extremely risky. >> And he said like I I just decided like I. I was never going to fear falling. >> And he said to this day when I know you. know when you're falling. >> um I just relax my whole body and let it. take me. >> Like he didn't fight it. He didn't you. know his he didn't tighten up. >> Yeah. And that's why he, you know, of. course he did get hurt over the course. of his career, but less so he thought. than otherwise. And it was what in that.

sort of acceptance right right up front. is what allowed him to take these big. risks in his field. And it sounds like. you and yours, >> right? And the guys that I served with. were all pretty much the same same. thing. You know what I. >> Do you ever get the nervous guy who's. like this is so dangerous? Like. [laughter] that the missile the flare. what? >> They wouldn't get Well, I take that. back. So, my wingman when we um the embassy. story where I said we had the two man. pads fired at us in 2001. You know what.

I didn't tell you was the the story of. the kites, right? So, we we take off out. of the um the the embassy yard, uh missile comes at us, we drop down, and now I'm as low as I can get dragging. my wheels through the uh the TV antennas. and and all that kind of stuff. You. know, it wasn't satellite dishes back. then. And to my front are hundreds if. not thousands of kites. The Taliban had. banned kite flying. And these kids are. flying kites.

>> What? >> And the problem is they don't uh they. don't use kite string. They use fishing. line to make sure that because they. fight the kites, you know, it's the kite. runner. Okay. >> So now I'm dodging the damn kites. And. uh my wife told me not to tell the. story, but I'm going to tell it. >> Yeah. So, uh, there's this one red kite. off to the front and it turns this way. I I go away. It goes over. And if this. thing wraps around the rotor system, it. could actually cut the rotor system off. with this this filament. >> Oh, we're not getting around here. >> So, I couldn't quite get away from him,

but it wrapped around the landing gear. And I'm dragging this kid like a mile. holding on his He's not letting go of. that kite. >> He's getting a little joy rod off of. your helicopter. >> Well, he lasted about 100 meters, I. guess. [laughter] No, >> like lasted as in lived or. >> No, >> he was fine. >> He's fine. >> Okay. [laughter]. >> But um but so we get back to Bram and. now we still got to go back and get the. general. And my co-pilot, not my. co-pilot, the pilot in command of the. second aircraft, his name uh Willie. He's from Puerto Rico. Now Willie is.

known for being very animated. And the. more animated he gets, you know, whether. it's fun or anger or whatever it doesn't. matter, any emotion, his accent thickens. up a little bit. >> Okay. >> And so he's he's uh he's yelling at me, you know, Al, I can't believe this, you. know, and oh my god, it just missed us, you know, and I was like, Willie, we. still got to go back. >> And he's like, no way. No way. And he's. just, you know, he's. >> Willie is the only sane one in this.

pairing. I just want you to know that. But [laughter] so there's a movie, a. book really, uh, Flight of the Intruder, and the the main characters fly into. North Vietnam in the, uh, in that. conflict when they're not supposed to be. there, and they go to drop bombs, except. the bombs don't drop because there was a. problem with the airplane. So, they fly. away and they they get all this stuff. shot at them, right? They almost don't. make it. And the navigator, the bomber. says, "Oh, I I got it fixed." He goes,

"Uh, let's go back around." And he go, "And do it again." And the guy goes, "What? Are you nuts?" He goes, "They'd. never expect us twice." Right? So I tell. that to Willie. I like Willie, they'll. never expect us to come back. They never. expect us twice. And he's like, "Oh, hell." You know, and he hadn't seen the. movie. I said, "It's a movie, Willie. We'll we'll figure out something." Um, >> so there are some some with the nerves. >> Yeah. But he's, you know, I I say that. that was that situation, but he went. with me on many, many very dangerous.

measures. >> That's good. So, he had to overcome it. >> And think about the crew chiefs, right? So, the pilots are up front. Both of us. have access to the controls, right? So, if something happens to me, the co-pilot. can do something. If something happens. to the two of us, the guys in the back. are screwed. >> Oh my. >> Right. They have no say. So, what I. mean, they can speak up, but you know, they're not in charge. >> Yeah. They're they feel powerless at. least. That would be nerve-wracking. I. mean, then you're jumping out of. airplanes just to like find something.

that's close to the adrenaline you had. over in Afghanistan. Um, you. I mean, it doesn't sound like you and. Linda had a happy marriage. >> No, it really was. >> It was happy. >> It was happy with moments of suck. >> Okay. >> You know, and. >> when she died by suicide, were you in. love? Were you together? or was she. still. >> No, I was pissed at her. Uh I just moved. out of the house cuz I caught her. driving drunk. She had I don't know. three drunk driving. >> stops and she had only been punished for.

one of them. And she was out still. driving and I came home at lunch and saw. her at a stoplight. You know, lights. out, her eyes, there was nothing behind. that. >> And so we got in a big fight and she. called my unit commander and said, you. know, maybe Allan shouldn't come home. tonight. And he tells me that. And so. instead, uh, well, I did come home with. a with a escort, if you will, packed up. all my stuff, grabbed the dog, and left. She was passed out on the floor the.

whole time. And then she lasted about. another week, two weeks, I think, before. she uh just drank herself to death. >> Yeah. >> You weren't surprised? >> No. No. Is there what's what. >> I tried to get help for her from uh the. insurance that they use in the military. is tryare and she had used up all her. benefits. You know, she went to rehab a. couple of times and. >> that'll do it. >> I went in and said, "Hey, >> she's got she's got to have rehab or she. is not going to live another month.".

>> And the ladies were very nice, but. they're like, "We can't. >> can't force her.". >> And uh yeah, she didn't didn't last. >> So when she died, were you resentful? Like what what is. the feeling then given all that preceded. it? >> I mean that was 2012. Uh and I'm happily. remarried to a wonderful woman, Patty. Uh. >> today. >> today I've got a great life and I'm. still angry at her. You know, I try not. to be. I try to come to peace with it. >> But you know, just when I think, okay, I.

kind of come to terms with it. I'm still. mad that she couldn't get better. >> Really? But I mean, like, don't you see. that it was clearly out of her control? >> Yep. You still feel the anger? >> Yeah. >> For your boys? >> Yeah. I mean, I have uh I have five. grandkids. She only got to see one of. them, you know, and uh you know, it's. amazing. >> Did you watch her become an alcoholic? >> Yeah. >> I've I've watched somebody I love become. an alcoholic. Not a family member, but.

>> it's it's terrible. It's like the slowm. moving car crash that you can't stop. >> Yeah. No matter how hard you try, no matter. how badly you want it to stop, you can't. stop it. And even if you have endless. conversations with the person, it seems. like they can't stop it either. >> You know what movie best describes the. situation I had it I and I just saw it a. couple months ago was uh Hillbilly. Elegy. >> Oh yeah, of course. Our vice president, >> you know, he's the whole time he's.

trying to help her. She's promising. No, this time this time I'm gonna do it. you. know, and you. >> Beverly. >> Yeah. You you keep trying and eventually. doesn't work out. >> No, I know. It's fool's gold. And the. promises, you know, too many times of. I'll get help. I'll go to rehab. I'll. >> Because you want it to work, >> of course, but it's fool's gold. I mean, it for some for some some actually are. able to turn their lives around, thank. God. But when you're on the losing end. of it, as you were here, it's I can. understand it. I hope for your own sake,

you can get to the place where you let. that go so it's not haunting you any. longer than it needs to be. So now, um, you're living your life. You're at West Point. You're jumping out. of airplanes. And. we then leave Afghanistan under. President Biden. And it's official. We've now lost that war and given up all. of our uh, positions there. We've. betrayed the translators who helped us. in the war. We've betrayed the Afghans. who we made promises to that we didn't.

live up to. This is not we the soldiers. but we are are our leaders. >> Yeah. >> Thanks to him we have a humiliation a. humiliating departure with the people. grabbing onto the air airplanes trying. to come. >> We lose 13 service personnel in the. attack that happened. And. so what where does that leave us? Where. does that leave you? I've talked to so. many Afghanistan vets who have strong. feelings about it. >> You know there's it's a it's a complex. set of feelings. I mean, first of all,

when they gave up Bram Air Base. before the whole thing even happened, you a couple weeks before, all I could. think of is why would you give up the. one piece of terrain? We took that first. for a reason. And you could do what's. called a NEO, non-combatant evacuation. order out of Bram. Screw any timelines. that they agreed to. You know, they're. Taliban's not coordinating. You're going. to, hey, we're going to get our people. out. We're leaving. You can watch, but. we're leaving from Bram. It's got two. runways. It the whole valley is.

basically secure. And instead they. didn't give the mission to the military. who plans and executes NEO. They gave it. to the state department. And the problem. with the state department as I. understand it is they viewed Haya as. essentially an embassy. What's inside. the fence is like embassy. >> Haya. >> U Kabool airport. That's the identifier. for it. And. you can't have multiple rings of of you. know defensive positions like you could. at Bram because they selected bad.

terrain. You know I mean that's a story. as old as warfare itself and they tried. to stick to a timeline that was. untenable. Mhm. >> And in doing so, you know, when the. Soviet Union left Afghanistan, they left. all of the forward operating bases fully. stocked, ready to go with people they. considered capable of doing it. >> I want to say within a week, they were. all ransacked and empty, >> which is what happened. >> once we left because the Afghans.

>> were only doing as good as they did. because they were working with us. you. know, we gave them intelligence, we gave. them air assets, we gave them ISR. platforms to see things and they, you. know, to whatever degree you can agree. is their success. We took that all away. and now they're just like Taliban and. they're going to. >> just melt right back in. >> But how's that feel now? I mean, you. lost sucks. >> You lost guys you you cared about. >> I think, you know, I want to say I lost. 21 friends in the course of that time.

>> Geez. >> Two of them really good friends. And. I feel like it's a waste for sure. We. didn't get out of that what we thought. we were going to. And had we left, you. know, the hindsight part. You know, we. were supposed to be gone November, December 2001, right? And then we would. do what what they call the over the. horizon fight. We'll just come back when. we need to. You know, we've proven we. could do it. >> Oh, we're having this same talk right. now. >> Yeah. >> Around around same same thing. I've.

heard that same thing like we'll go back. if we need to. >> Yeah. But, you know, once you get your. foot in the door, you know, it's uh it's. much easier to do something once you've. achieved the success of taking terrain. and, you know, establishing a foothold, if you will. You know, life is so much. easier. I mean, you have to, you know, resupply and all that kind of stuff. But. you know if you turned Bram into you. know Rammstein Germany. you know and just kept it and just.

support them but without doing all the. big combat operations but just. supporting the Afghan military. >> Yep. >> They probably could have I don't know if. if they could have. >> Well, it would have been better than. where we are now. >> Well, it certainly would have been. better than that. >> Do you look back thinking that was a. waste? I I I still am not there. I don't. I know we were lied to about the. government about how the war was going. and that there were in inept leadership. decisions, >> but as a civilian who was back here the. whole time, I feel like you guys kept us. safe. You did keep the enemy focused in. a far away remote region of the world.

and not on the homeland. >> I, you know, people would ask me, >> you know, in the military you can retire. at 20 years and when the GWAT kicked. off, I was at like 21 years. So, I could. have just retired. And a lot of my peers. did. When their families were, you know, their wife had had enough, they retired. And they would say, "Oh, why are you. still doing it?" And I'm like, "So, my. sons don't have to, right? Let's keep. the fight going." I felt like I was. making a difference the whole time, you.

know? And maybe I did, maybe I didn't, but I I felt like I was. >> And unfortunately for me, my sons. decided to follow in my footsteps. Anyway, they both have deployed to. combat. >> uh numerous times. God love them. >> Thank God. And they're fine. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Thank goodness. >> That's good. >> Well, you set an amazing example for. them, for your troops, for the guys you. mentored at West Point, for me, for this. audience. I'm so so grateful to you and. to your family, and I'm thrilled that. you did find love again. You're not. you're not back here succeeding as a.

civilianish. alone like you have. >> Yeah. Oh, no. I got a a great partner in. life. This is awesome. >> She But she was wrong about that story. It was okay to tell that story about the. kid with a balloon. >> Yeah. Know, she hears it. You know, there's certain stories I I do speak on. occasion for some fundraisers. Uh at the. Night Soccer Foundation, uh helps with. families. >> Does she know about the super secret. mission that you're not allowed to tell. us? >> No, >> she doesn't. >> She knows there are missions. >> But it's funny, you know, gosh,

>> we'll go years where she doesn't hear a. story. You know, she's never heard a. story and and we'll be at a Nightstalker. reunion or something and we get talking. Hey, remember that time this? Oh yeah. And she'll hit me in the arm and go, "You never told me that.". >> Oh, come on. >> Like, "Well, you never asked." You know, I mean, it just doesn't come up in in. casual conversation. >> Will she have learned anything new from. this interview? [laughter]. Okay. What's her name? >> Uh, Patty. >> Patty. Oh, well, please send her our. love. She sounds like a great person. I'm thrilled that she's in your life. You need that. >> Is the dog still around? >> No. Sadly, he passed this year. He was.

18. [clears throat]. >> What kind of dog was it? >> It was a Jack Russell Terrier Beagle. Mix. They call Jackabes. Very high. energy. Oh, now would be a great time to. get one from Ridgeland. with the dogs. >> Yeah, to [clears throat] rescue a. Ridgeland Beagle since you're inclined. Anyway, just throwing it out there. Alan, thank you. Thanks for everything. It's an honor to meet you and to know. you. >> Well, thank you. >> Really appreciate it. >> All the best to you. >> Thanks. >> Well, Alan Mack, everybody, the name of. his book, the last one is Razer 03: A. Nightstalker's Wars. And the new book is.

called again. >> Shinooks in the Dark. And that comes out. uh the end of the summer. They can. pre-order on Amazon right now. >> Oh, good. Please do it. Shinooks in the. Dark by Alan Cmack. You got to do it. Let's support Alan. My god, it's the. least we can do. Please. I think. everybody's feeling that right now. God. bless you. [music].