Platner Allegation EXPOSES the Media, and the Robinson Defense REVEALED, w/ Halperin & MK True Crime

Hey everyone, I'm Megan Kelly. Welcome. to the Megan Kelly show. It's day two of. the Tyler Robinson preliminary hearing. in Provo, Utah, where prosecutors are. seeking to persuade a judge that there. is probable cause to believe that Tyler. Robinson assassinated Charlie Kirk at. Utah Valley University on September 10th. of last year. We will have the latest in. just a moment. We've been watching it. It's been on for the past hour. We are. streaming it on our YouTube channel for. those of you who would like to follow. along. youtube.com/megan Kelly in its.

entirety. And uh we are going to be. doing substantive coverage of what. happened yesterday and this morning in. about 20 minutes or so. I'm going to. start with a different story uh here on. our show, but we've got to bring you. more about this this item that that was. in our AM update podcast this morning. Graham Platner, this whole thing is. imploding. His his campaign is. imploding. He was the darling of the. Democrat party. He easily won the. primary to take on Republican Susan.

Collins in the main Senate race. And. Republicans have been very worried about. this race. It's extremely tight. Extremely tight. And Susan Collins is, you know, she's a stalwart. She always. seems to manage to pull out these. contests. They like her in Maine because. she's moderate and so are they, uh, including the Republicans. But this. guy's sort of an in insurgent candidate. He's he's Trumpy in the way that he's. outside the mainstream. He doesn't look. like the other candidates. He doesn't.

talk like them. He he's more of a. populist though a leftist populist. whereas Trump was more of a Republican. populist and he has a very very good. chance of unseeding her or did until. recently. I mean he's been again kind of. like Trump like Teflon. He surrounded uh. or he he survived the scandals like that. surrounding his Nazi tattoo. He had made.

several controversial comments on Reddit. prior to running allegedly sexed with I. mean we were told about a dozen women. who were not his wife that the campaign. said no more than six. Okay. Okay. But. while he was married and he only got. married in 2023. So this is not ancient. history. and generally mistreating his previous. romantic partners. There was a big New. York Times expose on how those romantic.

interludes went beyond, you know, bad. romances to where one woman, Lindseay. Field, who's a conservative, said she. had been locked in a room by him. She'd. been she had her arm twisted in a way. that was painful and forceful. and some. other allegations that came out which. were quickly dismissed by most Democrats. who didn't really care. And now he's. facing allegations of sexual assault. from a woman he once dated. And I have.

to say, just having read the. allegations, she's alleging that he. raped her. There's really no. distinction. I don't know why they're. not using the Rword. And she is talking. about it in a way that's a little odd. You know, like when asked, "Did you say. no?" Oh, she had language like, you. know, I I used language of non-consent. She's got an a sort of e ethereal way of. addressing uh the the issue of consent, but it seems clear if you read her full.

comments and then listen to her on with. Jake Tapper yesterday, she she's saying. consent was not there and that that was. communicated. Um, and it's causing an. avalanche of defectors now from Graham. Platner. I mean, I think everyone but. Bernie Sanders has abandoned him now. Just about. All the people like who had. endorsed him and who are standing by. him. Even my old pal Crystal Ball, who I. really like. She's on the opposite side. of the aisle uh versus yours truly, but.

she's awesome. She's smart. And we go. way back. She'd been standing by Graham. Platner. She really likes that populist. leftist thing. And she today said, "Yeah, he's got he's got to drop out.". Uh, Political First reporting yesterday. that 41-year-old Maine resident Jenny. Razincott is the woman alleging Platner. forced her to have sex with him while. they were in a relationship, but she did. not want to have sex with him. He's fall. down drunk. She had told him not to come. over. It was one of those situations. And he um he did. He came over. He.

followed her around the apartment, got. her into her bed in her bedroom, and. forced himself on her. That's what she. said. She also sat down, as I mentioned, with CNN yesterday and said this to Jake. Tapper. >> This has obviously been very difficult. for you to talk about for 5 years. >> And even when you're telling the story, you don't. use the word.

>> Yeah. >> So, let me just be and I apologize. Let. me be as. direct as I can. Did Grand Platner rape you? >> By definition, yes, >> absolutely. >> Because he had non-consensual sex with. you. >> Yeah. >> Forced himself on you. >> Mhm. >> After you had told him no and fought him. off. >> Yeah. He violated multiple layers of.

consent that night by coming into my. home. when I asked him not to and by. advancing on me when I told him not to. and and furthermore another incident. that I had told him not to do and. >> with protection. >> Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, by the way that my. nervous system reacted to this. experience. Absolutely. Platner's calling any accusation of.

non-consensual behavior quote. categorically false. That's what he said. when the New York Times piece hit too. But yesterday, as this news was. breaking, we got news that he was. cancelling uh campaign events and then. he released a statement about how he is. contemplating his political future. The. most important part of this statement is. the last sentence. Listen here. Any. accusation of non-consensual behavior is. categorically false. Over the last 10.

months, I have been deeply humbled by. the faith Mayors have put in me. You. have welcomed me into your homes, into. your places of work, into your. restaurants, into your houses of. worship. You have shown that a different. kind of politics, one that puts the. interests of people over corporations, is not just possible, but is inevitable. So regardless of the inaccuracy of the. reporting, but mindful of the political. reality it will inflict, we are taking. the time to reflect on the best path.

forward for the state that I love, the. people that I love, the movement I. belong to, and the goal of defeating. Susan Collins. >> Taking time to reflect on the path. forward is classic language for we're. out. Um, he didn't say we're out. He may. just be considering getting out. There. hasn't been an announcement that he's. out, but taking time to consider the. path forward is not good. If you're. saying that as a candidate for office,

you're in a lot of trouble. Now, the. deadline for him actually to bail for. the Democrats to replace him as well on. the ballot is July 13th. Saturday is the. 11th because it's my mom's 85th. birthday. Um and then um so yeah, the. 12th is Monday. Sorry, 13th is Monday. And so that is the deadline by which. Democrats must replace him on the ballot. if they wish to replace him on the. ballot. And many, as I said, prominent. Democrats are calling for him to drop.

out right now with Maine seen as a key. opportunity to flip a Senate seat. They. see Susan Collins as vulnerable. Uh, one. person who has not yet commented is. Senator Bernie Sanders, who previously. endor endorsed Platner. is probably the. biggest power player um in making. Platner and his the loss of his. endorsement would be devastating. Joining me now to break it all down um. this this scandal and what the pain it's. causing within the Democratic party are. two of the best. Tom Beavenon, who's. co-founder and president of Real Clear.

Politics and co-host of the Real Clear. Politics Show on SiriusXM right here on. the MK channel, and our pal Marpin, who. is host of Next Up [music] on the MK. Media Podcast Network, which also airs. on the MK channel on SiriusXM. Don't miss a moment. Subscribe to this. show on YouTube and follow me on Insta, Facebook, and X. When you sign your. insurance policy, for some brokers, that's the finish line. handshake, they. get their commission and then they're. kind of done with you. You may not hear.

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welcome. What a hot mess. Mark Halprin, put it in perspective for us. >> Well, what matters, of course, in the. end, besides the drama of just the main. race, is what this does to impact the. chance the Democrats can control the. Senate after the midterms. if they can't. win Maine, the math becomes very. difficult for them. This was their in. one or two of their top pickup. opportunities. Um, in terms of Platner, I think this raises real questions for. the Democratic party about credibility.

and honesty and fidelity to principle. and it also raises questions in terms of. the timing of whether they actually will. end up with a weaker candidate. As. flawed as Platner was, if you look at. the people they might pick, they they. they may be decreasing their chances of. winning this seat as opposed to. enhancing their chances. What do you make of it, Tom? Because. this is not only the implosion of a. candidate. Um, it's also a serious black. eye for the press because the New York.

Times had this woman. She was in their. initial piece, but not with this story. And it it looks like if you're going to. be really charitable to the New York. Times, she didn't tell them the full. story. She's out she's coming out now. saying, "I didn't tell the full story. then because I wasn't ready." Right? >> But they had this bird in hand and. apparently weren't interested enough to. coax this out of her or did coax it out. of her and weren't interested in coaxing.

it such that they could get it in print, which as you know is another layer for. any good reporter. And now another. woman, that woman Lindseay Field, the. conservative, who was featured in the. New York Times, is coming out now and. ripping the Times a new one, saying, "Your piece wound up being a cover up. It was it was designed to run cover for. him. It was not designed to elicit the. truth. And it's no accident that you. failed to and that it took Politico a.

couple weeks later to actually print. what happened to this other woman. Yeah, I mean this is one of the things. all the Grand Platiner supporters are. are up in arms. I think the media has. has just done a a hit job, you know, based on the establishment backing, right? And then folks on the right are. saying, look, you saw people like Jodie. Caner going on CNN and and defending. Platner in the face of that initial. Times article. I mean, you have all of.

the you had the media and the Democrats, they were certainly they were willing to. overlook all of these things, all the. tattoo, the Reddit post, the you know, portaotti masturbation thing. I mean, all of this crazy stuff, including these. allegations about him being not just. sort of a bad boyfriend, but actually. putting his hands on women and Roana and. everybody was willing to sort of look. past that because they were able to say, "Look, this is a conservative woman.". >> They can't say that anymore. And. obviously uh now now some some line has.

been crossed here that that even. Democrats as you mentioned pretty much. everybody except for Bernie Sanders at. this point has called on Platner to get. out of the race. And so I I think he is. what's interesting about what Mark just. said it's going to be fascinating to. watch this play out because if you look. at the betting markets uh the the odds. of of Democrats winning that seat. actually popped up. they might they. might end up with because Platner was he. had so much baggage but he also had this. enthusiasm among the sort of you know. left-wing base and if they put somebody.

in that seat if Democrats end up picking. someone and putting someone in that seat. who doesn't have that support the. party's going to be split in half. heading into the general election which. is not a good place to be. >> Here is that Jodie Caner soundbite. She. is she's not the woman who wrote the New. York Times article on Platner, but she. is responsible. She and Megan Tui for. the New York Times Me Too coverage. They're the ones who broke all the big. stories, Harvey Weinstein, etc. And this.

is Jodie Caner talking [clears throat]. about the Times' coverage on this issue. >> Well, let's talk about what they may or. may not be willing to overlook. The. accusations against Graham Platner are. not classic meto accusations. They're. not about a boss and a young female. employee being subjected to sexual. advances. They're um they were mostly. made in the context of consensual. relationships. There are these like very. sensational uh texts about sex. There.

are allegations from former girlfriends. that are not the way my colleagues. reported them were not like classic. abuse allegations. They were mostly like. being his boyfriend gave me a view into. him and I did not like what I saw. His. character was scary. He had this Nazi. tattoo etc. There was one allegation of. crossing a line physically. But I think. that means that these are pretty. different accusations than say the one.

that pre the ones that President Trump. faced. And of course in the Access. Hollywood tape, President Trump uh. bragged about grabbing women uh against. their will. And so I think it speaks to. the kind of confusion of the long postme. which like gender related accusations. get bundled together, but they're. actually very different. Very different. Very different Mark from. Trump. >> I'm breathless listening to that. If you.

couple that with what I can only see as. a catch-and kill attempt by writing the. original story coupled with Lindsay's. very well doumented Twitter posts about. how the Times reported this story in a. way that int seemingly intended to. downplay the damage it would do to. Graham Platner. these these these there. should be uh New York Times employees if. they if passed with prologue for them. they should be out in front of 8th. Avenue protesting their own paper. They.

should be calling for a thorough. investigation of how such a thing could. happen because uh this is a this is a by. their st by their standards a massive. failure to protect the rights of of. victims, accused uh accusers. And um and. I just it's just mindboggling to me that. the New York Times can can operate with. impunity and no accountability to what. seems clear to be an attempt to, as they. often do, favor one party over the. other.

It was it was a catch and kill. That's. how it I mean the the irony, right? That's that's the name of Ronan. Farrell's book on um what the National. Inquirer did to protect. >> well Trump and Harvey Weinstein and and. some others and not just the National. Inquirer but that he talked about that. practice of catching and then killing. the story. You get it and then you kill. it to protect the subject of it. And the. New York Times seems to have clearly. done this in the case of Graham Platner. and under the opices of an expose,

right? But now we know, Tom, that the. expose was very limited given what. Lindseay Field had told them because. she's ripping them to to, you know, high. heavens and has been since that piece. broke and given what we now know this. Jennifer Rascott had to tell that she. had this. And look, I've I've probably. interviewed more meto victims than Jodie. Caner and Megan Tui. Um, I know these. women very well. Not the ones in this. story, but I women who have these.

stories. And I guarantee you the Times. knew Rascott's story. I guar there's no. way Rascott did not tell the two women. who interviewed her the full story. She. she probably just said, "I'm not I'm not. ready to go there yet." Like this. I. only want you to print the following in. the New York Times. That's my [snorts]. guess. Um, she's saying publicly now, I. wasn't ready to tell the full story, you. know, publicly when I spoke with the. Times and I really thought they had. Lindsay and they had another girl, so. they didn't really need me. But my point. is simply, if you know in your head that.

this is what what the full allegation. is, your piece sounds different. You. know, I mean, you you don't go lightly. on him. You you've got somebody who says. he raped me who's just too scared to say. it. Um, so if that's the case, I'd love. to hear from this Jennifer Ascot on. whether she actually did tell the full. story to the Times and just didn't give. permission to print it because then then. they are truly villainous. Then then. those women wrote that catch and kill. knowing that he had a credible.

allegation of rape against him and still. in in a way to catch and kill it. Can I. just read to you, Tom? You you mentioned. this um this Lindsay Felder Mark you. did. She's she had this devastating post. on X yesterday and I'm going to read it. in part. She she's mad about what. they've done to her and what they're. doing um now in general. I actually. understand why Democrat leaders don't. take our stories serious or didn't take. our stories seriously when the Times. reported them in June, but are now. It.

was by design. The line most shared from. the piece was the claim that the Times. quote could not corroborate my story. despite talking to two of my friends. Just FYI for listening audience, Lindsay's story included the following. three paragraphs. Mr. Platner could be. rough with her. Uh, Miss Feithfield. said, particularly when they were. drinking, leaving her shaken and. sometimes afraid. In the interviews, Miss Feicefield grappled with how to. process her experiences. She was quick. to know that he never hit me, never.

punched me. But she said he regularly. grabbed her by the shoulders, sometimes. hard enough to leave marks, and on one. occasion yanked her out of a cab by her. wrist after an argument when she wanted. to stay in the car. During one one. argument, she recalled, he twisted her. arm behind her back, shoved her into a. bedroom, held the door closed from the. other side so she couldn't get out, telling her to remain there until she. was calm. Eventually, Miss Fifield said. she fell asleep and left the next. morning. "It hurt," she said. It didn't.

cause an injury. It didn't break my arm. Uh so they were quick to make sure they. printed Field's downplaying of the. incident. Right? Uh without reporting, for example, that's kidnapping. If it's. true what he what he did to Fifffield, it's kidnapping under the law. Not to. mention assault. That is it's a battery. An unwanted touching is a battery. In. any event, back to Field's ex post. She. says, "Um, okay. They were quick to. print point out that they quote could. not corroborate my story despite talking.

to two of my friends. I gave them. contact info for five friends. They. called the two who I clarified would not. know about the abuse, but would be able. to affirm our relationship timeline, events, etc. They simply did not call. the other three." I also gave them the. names of all my former roommates who. remembered him stalking our row house, which was about five houses down from. his, and waiting for me to return. By. the way, that's very relevant now. because this Jennifer Rascott is saying. he broke into her home and was lying in.

wait for her. Lindsay uh continues, "I. gave them screenshots of messages. between these roommates and and I. discussing it." She says, "I gave the. names of the other men I dated who might. have remembered him following us around. the hill and showing up on my stoop. after we walked home from dates to. confront us. I gave them emails to my. landlord urgently ending my lease and. moving to an apartment across town and. diary entries talking about it all time. marked." I told them that during. premarital counseling, I had spoken to.

my ex- fiance about the abuse because I. had to explain to him why I reacted with. such terror anytime he lost his temper. They said, "Oh, no. We don't need to. bother him or my priest. Besides, I had. written about it in my diary in detail.". They re they reassured me. As the weeks. dragged on, I stopped trying to give. them evidence because the amount I had. already given them seemed to overwhelm. them, and I thought it meant they. clearly had more than enough to verify. my every claim. My friends might not. have known the details of the abuse, but. they affirmed that yes, I had told them.

he was abusive long before he ran for. Senate. Besides, they assured me uh my. part in their reporting would be small. She wound up being the poster girl for. the whole piece. I thought my details. would only serve to affirm Jenny and the. other anonymous woman. Jenny and I, having never met or spoken, both shared. with these reporters terrifyingly. similar details of intimate partner. violence, coercive control, and cycles. of abuse/lobbombing. The third unnamed woman in the story did. as well. But tell me again how they. quote could not corroborate. Tom, that.

is devastating. Well, it's even more. insidious than that because the. difference between the two is that. Lindseay Field was a Republican, was a. conservative, and this Jenny Rascott was. a liberal. I mean, she basically said, "Look, I I agree with Graham Platner's. policies, but I don't like him as a. person." And so when the New York Times. did that and made Lindsay the feature. and focus of that story, that allowed. all these Democrats and everybody else. in the media to dismiss it as as the. Platner campaign came out and said,

"Look, this is just a disgruntled, you. know, this is a hatchet job from the. right-wing, the MAGA crowd, all of. that." If they had reported the fact. that there were also credible. allegations from [snorts] from another. woman who who was from the other side of. the aisle, it would have been much much. harder for them to to play that game and. and do it that way. And that's why I. think a lot of Democrats now are looking. at this and they've that's the. difference between the two cases. >> Megan, I I went and. >> that's such a good point. >> Sorry. I went and reread the New York. Times story yesterday and the whole. thing is so insidious. Not just as.

Lindsay points out, the things they. didn't include, but just based on what. they included, this is the this is the. lead they wrote. This is literally the. lead of a story about accusations, as. you said, of serious accusations. On. Tuesday evening, after a whirlwind day. in Washington, Graham Platner, the. Democratic nominee for Senate in Maine, rushed home. Rumors were spreading from. Portland to the PTOIC. It's like a. featury lead about how Platner is. dealing with the accusations. I rewrote. the lead just based on what they put in. the piece, not the stuff that they. buried. This is what have been my lead.

Democratic Senator Graham Platner is. facing allegations that he physically. assaulted and held captive a former. girlfriend during a volatile. relationship, according to a New York. Times investigation. That's the lead. >> And the story and the story as written. is filled with. >> quotes from, oh, other girlfriends. really liked him, said he was a really. nice guy. Can you imagine them inserting. that in a story about Donald Trump? Th. this is this is such a scandal, this. piece. And and and I can see why Lindsay.

feels so betrayed by cooperating with. them. And I question why she did. >> uh because because it was clear based on. her account of how they treated it. They. were not trying to write the real story. It's just phenomenal that they tried to. get away with this and and they would. have potentially had it not been for. someone else deciding that she needed to. come forward. >> Yeah. I mean to to quote one of my mom's. favorite movies, Animal House, you. up. You trusted us. Yeah. >> That's what that's that's what the New.

York Times is saying to Lindsay, right? It's like too bad you took a risk. You. never should have done that. >> Uh but it is infuriating and and in a. way, I mean, not in a way. In fact, Tom, it backfired because the Democrats could. have had the truth about Graham Platner. He denies it. It may or may not be true. Okay, I must say that for the record. Um, but they could have had this story. in full [clears throat] about Graham. Platner weeks ago uh in much more time. uh before the election to get another.

candidate in there to clearly and easily. get him off the ballot before that July. 13th deadline. But they decided to play. the game of delusion and delusion. And. now here we are with less than a week to. go before his name has to come off that. ballot or stay on there for the general. election. and he's just considering the. path forward, not agreeing to step down. >> Yeah. I mean, as if the Nazi tattoo. wasn't enough, like they could have. gotten rid of this [laughter] guy like a. year ago, months ago, months ago, right?

Um and all of the other the Reddit post. and all that stuff. I mean, it is. astonishing for for all of the people. who live in Maine that that the. Democrats decided to get behind this guy. and and hitch their wagon and their. credibility to this guy and then stick. with him through all of these things. Um, it it has been remarkable to see and. now it is a problem. It they are going. to pay a price for it not just in Maine. but for all the other races. I mean, you. had Elsed endorsed him in Michigan and.

he's he's now distancing himself. the. only person uh the most prominent. Democrat who did not endorse him, interestingly, was AOC. Uh she did not. get behind this guy. And I I find that. kind of uh kind of interesting. But as. you said, Bernie's Bernie's been all in, has been up there campaigning for him, even after that New York Times piece. came out, he hasn't said anything yet. And so I look, I think he has to get. out. I don't know. I I guess there's a. slim chance that he could he could try. and ride this thing out, but I It looks.

like. >> bull Trump. >> Well, yeah, exactly. >> Remember we all thought Trump was gonna. drop out after the Access Hollywood tape. >> and he came out, double barreled it and. said, "F off. No locker room talk. I'm. in.". >> I saw Mika Brazinski sort of grilling. Adam Ren, the political reporter about, you know, now there's no there's no. police report, right? There's no, you. know, like what documentation do you. have? Like do you have the DMs? I mean, theoretically, >> I don't remember her asking any of that. about the Trump accusers,

>> right? She's definitely doesn't look. like she's believing all women. Um, but. I guess theoretically he could say, "Look, you know, this is a he said, she. said situation. I say it doesn't happen. She said it did." And he could try and. go that route, but it looks like the. momentum is is swinging pretty heavily. against him. It would be hard for him. to, I think, to to ride it out at this. point. >> I think Sanders may have called for him. to get out. >> Oh, did he just now? >> Just now. I think I've seen reports on. that, but let's see if. >> Wait, while you check that, let's play a. little of that Morning Joe exchange you.

just referenced. Uh, Tom Beavenon. Here. it is. 4B. >> Correct me if I'm wrong. And this. there's not a legal case playing out. here for due process to see itself. through. So my question to you, given. the very high standards political has uh. before they come write something like. this and publish it, what aspects of. this story brought it to the level of. publishable? >> Yeah, you're you're correct here, Ma. There there is no uh police report in.

this case. Uh we spent a lot of time. talking to to Jenny um you know asking. her for cooperating evidence. Were you. able to see the interactions between. Graham Platner and this alleged victim? Did you actually physically see them? Did she produce them for you? >> She was she uh attempted to uncover. them. She uh but was unable to. >> Willie, >> she was Jenny in that New York Times. piece. She appeared in the piece a few.

weeks ago. So, what's your sense of why. she decided she wanted to go into more. detail with you at this point? >> Yeah, Willie. Uh, she was frustrated. with how that article uh landed. >> Yeah. Um, you you're right, Mark. I'm. seeing it, too. It broke six minutes. ago. Senator Bernie Sanders on the main. US Senate race, quote, "I have spoken. with Graham Platner about the best path. forward for Maine. In light of these. very serious allegations, I have recommended that he step aside.".

Um, so does that is that is that it. Mark? I. >> when you have Sanders actually join the. chorus. >> Yeah, it's pretty big deal. Fellow New. Englander, leader of the movement, as. pointed out, just one of his major. backers. So look, Planner can look at the Donald Trump and. Bill Clinton examples and say, "If I. fight and win, I go for broke and and. I'm a US senator and and I can survive. If I get out, I'm probably done." as a. as a not just a political figure in. Maine, but as a member of polite society.

in Maine. But no financial support, no. backing of Sanders. Um I I I I thought. he had close to no chance to go on as. Tom said, but now I think it's now I. think it's probably literally no chance. >> because we already saw that um he was. losing his funding. The uh National. Democratic Senate Senatorial Campaign, I. think it was, or one of those formal. fundraising groups already said, "We're. out." Um, all the other supporters have. said we're out. As I said, even sort of.

the grassroots, more podcasty type. influencers are saying we're out. And. now you have Sanders saying we're out. >> I will say if if you did a poll in Maine. right now in the wake of the. allegations, I think he'd be within five. points of Collins. >> I did a focus group with Maine voters. and they they just don't care. >> No, I agree. I agree. I agree. Which is. which is why that's on the other side of. the ledger if you're if you're Graham. Platner in deciding what do you do here. But the the only other guy they're. talking about so far at least is this.

Troy Jackson who's a former state. senator in Maine. He lost the Democratic. primary last month uh for Maine governor. and he's been floated as somebody who. could succeed Platner. Reading here from. the Washington Examiner, he called for. Platner to drop drop out saying I'm the. best person to replace him. However, [laughter] okay, however, guys, um, here's what Progressive Victory just. posted. We began asking our contacts on. the ground in Maine about Troy Jackson.

earlier today after seeing many. suggestions that he should replace. Platner. In our discussions, we have. received troubling information not only. about Jackson's behavior, but the. behavior of many prominent Maine. Democrats toward women more broadly. Both as a result of the credibility of. the sources and in the interest of not. seeing our movement make the same. mistake twice, we are choosing to share. some of this now. As Maine Senate. President in a state senate caucus. meeting several years ago, Troy Jackson, in a heated disagreement, struck a. female colleague with a bottle he threw. at her. There [snorts] are many.

witnesses and it appears this is a. widespread open secret within Maine. politics and not an isolated incident. This information is still de developing. We'll provide it more as we get it. I. should note for the record that's not. been responded to by this Troy Jackson. It appears to be an allegation that was. not made in any sort of official or. formal setting. So, we will assume he. denies it for now. But the the vetting. thing is not going well, Tom Beavenon. It's not it didn't go well with plat and. maybe this is the reason why. Who could.

forget these idiots who found Graham. Platner to begin with and then were so. proud of themselves did the media rounds. only to have all normies recoil in. horror that these are the people picking. our political candidates. Look at these. two. >> We paid a nice firm a whole chunk of. money and got some stuff back. Some of. what you've seen on the news we got. back. Other stuff we didn't. Um, did the vetting process turn up? The. tattoo that became so controversial?

>> No. >> The Reddit posts, did that turn up in. the vetting process? >> The firm sent us a thing and it had some. of the posts, but it didn't have all of. them. >> And what did you think about that? How. did you how did you think your way. through the fact that he had posted. these things on social media?

>> I said none of this will or should stop. him from becoming a US senator. >> Oh my god. [laughter]. >> I'm sorry. >> They might want to ask for a refund for. that oppo research firm that they hired. because they didn't do a very good job. >> Of course they didn't. that. Have you. ever seen a bigger loser? I mean, you. could just tell just the his a effect, the way he speaks, his his defense of. the vetting process. I I don't know if.

he's connected with progressive victory. Mark Halpern, but they seem to be doing. a better job in stopping certain other. possibilities in their tracks so that. that they don't make this mistake. I. mean, I think the biggest winners today. are obviously main Republicans and. Republicans nationwide who've got to be. feeling this seat, notwithstanding what. that betting poll showed, is is a bit. more secure for team red than it was two. months ago. Well, you just imagine. whoever the main Democrats pick, even if. they somehow can pick somebody on. Tuesday if Platiner gets out, it's a.

challenge to stand up a Senate campaign. Even if you run a gubanatorial campaign. this year, standing up a federal Senate. campaign, hiring everybody in the middle. of the summer, uh fundraising, scheduling, and then going through. vetting, you know, it's a crapshoot. It's is it possible someone could get. all that done and not have vetting. issues and and and put a campaign up. against Susan Collins who by the way her. and her team are killers? They they're. not they're not laxidasical. They know.

how hard it will be for her to win this. seat no matter what because of the. nature of the state. So good luck to. whoever it is and and they better be. clean as a whistle because you can rest. assured their own veterans may not find. stuff but the James Blair and the. Republicans will find it all. It's it's. really not great to replace the one. who's, you know, allegedly kidnapping. and assaulting and raping women with one. who threw a bottle at another woman in a. heated disagreement. I don't know where. it hit her, but there are apparently.

many witnesses again reports. >> [clears throat]. >> uh this group as an open secret. So, um. last but not least, this is not on the. subject of Graham Platner, but it is on. the subject of Mitch McConnell. There is. a report out today that Mitch. McConnell's been hospitalized for the. past few weeks and there's a woman who. broke the story um who's an independent. journalist. I'll try to find her name. here. I had it a second ago and [snorts]. she is reporting today that that Mitch. McConnell may be in a coma. he may be in.

a coma right now and that as that news. hit his wife Elaine Chow final former. labor secretary under Trump flew to. China to meet with the Chinese vice. president. Okay, so he was found. unconscious and required CPR at his. Washington DC home following an apparent. cardiac arrest. reading here from a. Daily Beast report that's based on this. woman's and I think another's reporting.

Um, and now this woman, her name is. Desiree Townsen, again, she's the one. who initially reported accurately he was. found unconscious at his home, [clears throat] is saying yes, that. she's now hearing uh that he is in some. sort of vegetative vegetative state uh. and possibly no brain activity and that. she's now waiting at the hospital for. when his family quote eventually decides. to move him off of life support. it. He. is still a sitting US senator. He's.

stepped down as majority leader, but. he's still a sitting US senator. And. there's speculation, Mark Halpern, that. the reason possibly, this is Steve. Bannon's theory, that they don't want to. announce this is that he believes the. senator's office is trying to avoid. triggering a special election that would. allow outgoing Kentucky Republican. Representative Thomas Massie to run as. an independent. there's some timing. issue if this comes out about McConnell. before August 3rd about whether we can.

have a special election that might allow. Massie to run or whether it would just. go right to November in the general and. I don't know if that would how that. would affect Massie but can we just. start on the issue about McConnell and. the the reporting there. What do you. what do you know and what do you think? >> Well, they've been very uh very. unforthcoming about what exactly has. happened. We know he's had health issues. in the past. I talked to someone today. who I think knows more than he was. willing to tell me, but uh I wouldn't be. surprised if Senator McConnell didn't. come back to the Senate and and all this. stuff about um about uh who will replace.

him is is going to be very much on his. mind and the mind of his team. They're. extremely proprietary about that seat. >> I got to say, I'm I'm sad about this. I. I know there are a lot of Republicans. who don't like Mitch McConnell because. he's been a Trump antagonist in more. recent years, but the Mitch McConnell I. know is the one who got Supreme Court. justice and appellet court justice after. one [clears throat] after the other. through at a time when the Democrats uh.

were completely. obstruction uh oriented around judges. and he [snorts] accomplished some heroic. feats around judges that he really. should be applauded and remembered for. And um look, he you can't have your. whole legacy be defined on whether you. were on the right side of Trump. You. know, it's that's just Like he. served honorably for decades, became a. leader in Republican politics. He he was. a gentleman but fought very hard when it.

came to judicial nominees. Forgive me. for speaking of him in the past tense. There's no report that he has died. It's. just I understand he's obviously. struggling right now. So, um, but if. this does become a battle for, you know, legacy and the seat, Tom Beavenon, it's. not like this is going to go blue this. seat, but Thomas Massie actually. potentially getting in to like what a. switcheroo that would be. I [laughter]. mean, I don't know if Trump would feel. any better about Massie than he did. about McConnell. No, that would be like.

uh one of those stories that, you know, Hollywood would re reject because it. seemed too far-fetched if that's how the. the the whole thing worked out. But I. agree with you. You Mitch McConnell had. a really interesting arc over the last. few years of his career because when he. was in the he's a master tactician. He. he was able to get those Supreme Court. justices through. And you remember like. there were all these memes of him going. around and like with narcos and all. these things like he was he was like. dark cocaine. Yeah. Cocaine Mitch and. all that. Fear the turtle, all of those.

things. And then he subsequently the. sort of the the the attitude flipped and. he became uh among the least well-liked. If you look at his favorability ratings, they went absolutely into the tank in. part driven by Republicans. And so uh he. became one of the least liked members of. the the establishment by the MAGA base. even despite his successes and. accomplishments. Look, I I started my prime time uh show. at Fox News. The very first guest ever.

was Ted Cruz, and my first question to. him was, "What's it like to be the most. hated man in America?" I have a long. track record of liking and having a. friendship with the least liked people. in Washington. And I don't know if this. is to my credit or to my shame, but I. wear I wear it as a badge of honor. Uh. it's good to get along with people if. you can, guys. Thank you both so much. >> Good to see you both. Thanks, Megan. >> Yeah, you as well. Um, all right. Coming. up next, we will have the latest on the. Tyler Robinson hearing. [snorts] We've.

been monitoring it all morning. I'm. going to summarize for you the major. points that came out yesterday. I can. see clearly a couple of places that. they're going on this. It's fascinating. how much the prosecution is showing. I. mean truly like my only conclusion is. that they must be worried about the. public PR battle and the jury pool. because they don't have to be doing all. this and yet they are. And they just. released some really like gripping. video. It was moments before air and I.

was sitting there eating an apple like. staring at it and eating my apple not. able to speak. Doug came by. I'm like I. can't talk now. We're going to show it. to you and talk about its meaning next. [music] Don't go away. Hey, thanks for watching today's full. episode. If you're new here, throw us a. subscribe. See what you think. Stay in. touch. There's plenty more goodness. where this one came from. As always, we. really do value your feedback. So, email. me, too. Megan megnancelly.com. or just leave a comment down below. I do.

read them. I meander over and I scroll. through and I find them very. entertaining and really appreciate the. feedback. But in any event, join the. community by becoming a subscriber so. you miss nothing. We value your support. We may not always agree on positions, but as you know, I'm very open-minded to. people who disagree with me. That's how. I learn. So, thanks. And thanks for. trusting us to always talk about it. Openly, honestly, and with provocative. conversations. Every season change seems. to come with the same realization. A. closet full of clothes and absolutely.

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time. All right, so that's dailyook.com. for 50% off and make sure you use our. promo code Megan, which will ensure you. get your discount. All right, and then. they'll know we sent you. Now, we want. to get to day two of the Tyler Robinson. preliminary hearing, [music]. and I just want to update you on what. happened yesterday, okay? And then I'll. tell you what happened this morning, and. then we're going to bring in our panel, and we will discuss it. But uh our. friend Jack Bobic, who has been doing.

great work with Turning Point in the. wake of Charlie's death, as he did. prior, uh is there at the trial and did. a wonderful report um online yesterday. for the Postmillennial about what. happened in court. We of course checked. it ourselves as we always do. Um we. trust Jack and and he was right about. his reporting, but you know, it's always. good uh just since uh more eyes are. better. And I want to tell you what what. happened, some of the highlights, okay? And then we'll get to the stunning video. that was just released. Uh, okay. First,

yesterday to testify was officer Chris. Bagley. He currently or he he was there. because he served as a Utah Valley. University officer on the day of the. shooting. Now, that in and of itself is. interesting because they failed. UVU. police failed to keep Charlie safe and. to keep that roof secure. And I was told. directly by my friends at Turning Point. that the reason the Turning Point.

security team was not patrolling the. roof or doing drones taking a look at. the roof is because they were told by. the local cops that they were on it. And. we heard the head of the security team. for Charlie say that to Shawn Ryan. He. went on his show and said something to. that effect that that the locals had it. And this guy was the local. This is this. is the UVU officer who was there the day. of the shooting. And by the way, once.

you know that, it makes the neester. cross-examination. she's the lawyer for. Tyler Robinson of him yesterday come. into more clear focus because do you. remember like this guy was used to set. up the scene to talk about the shooting. to talk about the aftermath and then. what he did to find the the scene of the. shooting the evidence he saw there and.

so on. So, he's an important witness to. talk about this is this is the evidence. we found at the scene and how it all. went down. And she, it seems clear to. me, was trying to diminish him by. saying, "You. don't know your ass from your elbow. You. you you know, ultimately she's going to. argue this guy, he couldn't keep Charlie. safe. He's got a lot to cover up for. He's got a lot to answer for. Should we. really be putting a lot of stock in his. word? uh because he's the one who failed. to secure the entire scene because she.

did get after him yesterday in a. soundbite we played on the lack of. security on the roof and um you know did. you really know that um can't remember. the specifics of it but we listened to. it yesterday. In fact, we'll just play. it. Okay, here's her cross of this guy. Bagley ST 36. >> Um. >> the machines you walk through at TSA on. the airport where it checks to see if. you're carrying any anything metal. what. we all had to go through to get in the. courtroom. Were there any machines like. that set up or being used on campus that.

day? >> No. >> And as far as you know, >> were there any drones that were flying. above campus that day? >> Not that I know of. >> And did anyone ever talk to you about. covering anything near or on top of or. in the LOC building? Were you ever. signed that area before the shooting? >> No. Do you know who was? >> I don't. >> And when you got up to the roof that.

afternoon, [clears throat] was anybody around that. was law enforcement? >> No. >> Nobody on the roof? >> No. >> Nobody on the stairway? >> Nope. >> Nobody on the walkway? >> Nope. >> Okay. And in the state of Utah, are is a. campus a gun-free zone? Are students. allowed to have guns on campus? >> It's an open carry state. So, yes,

>> that actually is important, by the way, that Utah is an open carry state and UVU. is an open carry campus and therefore. it's fine to have you don't need a. license. So, different let me tell you. from Connecticut. Um, but you don't need. a license because it's a free state uh. to carry a gun. We have a whole thing. It's called the Second Amendment. So. like the these crazy leftists would have. us get a license to have our free speech. next. Uh that's also an important. amendment. In any event, this guy. testified about being a UVU officer on. the day of the shooting. He testified uh.

he he was shown a number of images. depicting the campus, the buildings, and. the surrounding area. Uh of course, the. defense objected to everything and uh it. they were overruled. He said he was. securing um the area above the tent that. was covering Charlie. Uh he came in to. do a shift for this special event. He. observed Charlie arrive on campus, do a. meet and greet. He saw the sever several. thousand people there in attendance. Uh. he [snorts] heard a shot fired at 12:23.

p.m. local time, which is 2:23 p.m. Eastern. Cannot forget that moment here. [snorts]. Uh experiencing ourselves. He said he. saw Kirk lean to the left going further. under the tent. Then everybody started. getting up and starting to run in more. of a chaos kind of situation. He said he. recognized the noise as gunfire. He left. his post. He began fighting against the. crowd flowing against him so I can help. stop an individual that's probably. shooting and he's looking for the. shooter. By the time he got to the.

bottom of the stairs, someone said over. the radio, "We had a shooter in. custody." Um, as Bagley recounted the. events of the shooting, Erica Kirk left the room. This was. actually kind of a stunning development. I know that Erica is going to leave and. Charlie's family is going to leave. His. sister is there, too, not just his. parents when they get into the details. of the shooting. None of them wants to. take that in. God bless them. Why should. they have to? But Tyler Robinson is. sitting in that courtroom and he was. reportedly laughing at the beginning of.

the hearing. Not during the testimony, but laughing. Picture it. And and all. the reports are that Erica burst out. into tears before the hearing even got. going. And Tyler Robinson is sitting. there laughing. I mean, I just can't imagine this. dynamic of Erica having to sit feet away. from the man accused of murdering her. husband, his Charlie's poor parents and. sister. Same. And soon, it could be. today, could be tomorrow. We haven't. been told exactly when, they're going to.

play that videotape of Luna Lance Twigs, the lover, furry trans person of the. defendant, Tyler Robinson. And Tyler. Robinson is going to see his trans furry. lover, testify against him. And it'll be. the first time they've seen each other, I believe, since the crime and since. Robinson's arrest. and he will have to sit there and listen. to th this lover sell him up the river. and that will be quite a moment inside.

that courtroom. Um so Bagley went on talked about how he. began assessing whether anyone else was. injured. Uh didn't see any other. injuries. He did testify that he saw an. empty pistol holder that was sitting on. top of the grass but then realized that. there was a rifle shot. he could see the. Los Ci building that had a direct line. of sight. So, he went there to see what. was going on because he said he thought.

he heard the shot come from the east. He. was later pressed on the fact that that. wasn't in his report that he had heard. it come from the east. But he added that. yesterday and this would be in essence. what brought him to the scene of the. shooting. But it would also be his. excuse for why he did not pick up that. holder, the empty pistol holder. And I'm. sure the defense is going to make. something out of the fact that there was. an empty pistol holder there that may. have had evidence on it, DNA, etc. What. was never retrieved. More on that and. the stunning videotape [music] right.

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completing Officer Baggley's testimony. He was a UVU campus officer at the time. of the Charlie shooting and was. describing that he had seen an empty. pistol holder that was sitting just on. top of the grass. He would later testify. that he lost track of it and it. disappeared. I'm sure the defense will. want to make something of that, but it. is relevant that Utah is an open carry. state. So, it's not it's not like there. was a shooting and and now I found an.

empty holster and it must have come from. this empty holster. It's it's Utah. It's. open carry. There's probably holsters. everywhere. And in the chaos of a mass. evacuation in a scary, dangerous event, it wouldn't be entirely shocking to find. somebody's on the ground. Perhaps. somebody even pulled their weapon to. protect themselves. Um, but if you're. the defense lawyer, of course you're. going to make something of that. I mean, of I'd be arguing that's the real. shooter that it wasn't my client who had. that. Um, and it wasn't a rifle. It was.

a it was a pistol. So, that's where. they're going. More back to Bagley. He. described um going over to the Loi. Center, right? He claimed that he saw he. he believed he heard the shot come from. the east. That's where the Loi Center. was and that's the building on which the. shooter Tyler Robinson, the accused. shooter, was accused of being when he. fired these alleged shots. Um, he said. he got there and he discovered a red and. black screwdriver. He was shown a. photograph from the top of the Loi.

Center from which he said you could see. the grass courtyard area and where. Charlie had been speaking. He described. images shown in the courtroom of gravel. So they showed the judge these images of. gravel on the roof that had been. disrupted of the Losi Center. At the. very top of the Losi Center, Bagley said. he could observe what looks like a. sniper pad, a person that has been laid. in a prone position with the markings of. elbows, knees, and feet in the gravel in. the line of sight where Charlie's tent. was. After his findings on the rooftop, Baggley said he asked dispatch to look.

at the camera system to see if anyone. was on the roof at the time of the. shooting. Now, he's looking for. corroborative evidence to what he's. seeing in the gravel and this. screwdriver, which he thinks may be. relevant. And he says, "Dispatch says. there had been a man on the roof and. described that he ran to the edge, dropped down, crawled, got in a prone. position toward the direction of the. tent." He then went to the police. department in a nearby building to look. at the footage himself. At that moment, I realized I had more crimes, a bigger. crime scene than I needed to cont that I.

needed to contain and preserve for that. moment. So you can see this guy Bagley. is important. Um he went on to say that. he went to the northeast side of the. building. Outside the building he saw. impressions of the shoe print inside the. grass and also up above on the northeast. side of the building I could see on the. cement where someone had scuffed there. then dropped down to the shoe imprint. He's attempting to lay down the evidence. of the path that the defendant he is.

arguing took. Um Kathy Nester. cross-examined him in the way that we. showed you there, zeroing in on that. holster, you know, what happened to it. Bagley said he did not know. Um and that. no one had taken custody of it. Um. then came David Hull. He is currently. with the Utah Department of Public. Safety. He was working as a state bureau. of investigation.

um major crimes division investigator at. the time of the shooting and and they. need Hull to get in all the videos that. they have of who they say is Tyler. Robinson that day and that's he started. that yesterday afternoon and that's he's. still on the stand. That's what he spent. this morning doing. So now we're getting. up to speed to current moment. uh he. testified that he was directed to go. down to the university following the. shooting. So Bagley is our guy to get us. through the actual shooting and this guy.

came on the scene right after for to. investigate. Among the data gathered. from the general public because he. testified they received multiple videos. from the general public um were uh. through tips and social media. Okay. Were videos taken at the scene. Multiple. videos collected by the team were played. in the courtroom including clips of. Charlie at the beginning of the event. a. video showing the moment Charlie was. shot as well as Charlie in the moments. after he was shot. There was a stunning. moment in which. they played the judge seeing.

Charlie get shot and I think I mentioned. this yesterday, but he. you can't hear the audio. You can hear a. little bit. You can hear the shot go. off, but you can see the judge, Judge. Graph reacting. He winces. He He's just You see the judge's. humanity. He winces when you can hear. the shot and you can see him. Yeah. Struggling to contain his emotions as.

the plays out. In fact, no, it was on AM. update. We didn't play it here. Can we. play it now? >> And uh let's go ahead and play this. video only on the monitors. And if. there's sound associated with it, uh the. sound to be played as well. And you may. proceed.

for listening audience. You can see the. judge at the moment of the shot and if. you listen to you turn the sound up, you. can hear the the shot and he he jumps. the way you do like a jump scare in a. movie and then you can see him push his. chair back. It's an instinctive. protective mechanism, right? Like push. your chair back from the screen like we. all want to when we see that video. You. don't want anything to do with it. You. don't want to be seeing it. You don't. want it to be true. And then he comes. back in toward the laptop. It's all very. subtle, but it's happening. And then you.

can see the judge kind of put his tongue. to the side of his mouth like, you know, he's it's stress. That's stress and. anxiety. manifesting in him. And he's a consmate. professional. He's holding it completely. together. But you can just see his. humanity and a judge, a distinguished. judge trying to control it and control. his emotions because he is a human. inside that robe. He has a job to do, but he's a human. He's a he's a human. being who clearly has empathy for poor. Charlie and what happened to him. And.

that comforts me to know that. back to David Hull uh again who was with. the State Bureau of Investigation, Major. Crimes Division on the Day of the Talked. about the multiple videos and um he. talked about the medical examiner who. was at the scene who told him that he. had pronounced Charlie dead. Uh he. testified that the Utah Medical. Examiner's Office conducted an autopsy. late in the evening of September 10th. and that the cause of death was listed.

in the autopsy report. He first said, as. a murder, the manner of death, a gunshot. wound to the neck. The defense lawyer. objected that the cause of death was. actually listed as homicide, not murder, which is a legal distinction. Murder has. to be proven in a court, and the comment. was corrected. Hull. said on the night of September 11th, the. next night, Thursday, we received word. from Washington County that an. individual in the area had reached out. to law enforcement and was wanting to.

turn themselves in for the incident at. UVU. He said the name that they were. given from Washington County was Tyler. Robinson. After receiving the name, they. put together a workup of his driver's. license and other records to get some. info on him, his car, and so on. After. that information, they were able to use. video to try to track where Tyler. Robinson went and that they were able to. establish that Tyler Robinson, quote, had been on campus approximately four. times throughout the day. Twice before. the shooting, the time of the shooting,

and after the shooting, later in the. evening into the early hours of the. 11th, there was testimony about. something, I think it was 12:38 a.m. that night. So, he was there twice. before at the time of the shooting and. then in the we into the wee hours of. between the 10th and the 11th. Um, when. asked if the man on the videos was in. the courtroom, he was about to point out. Tyler Robinson. The defense objected, which is such a objection, but. in any event, ultimately he was allowed.

to identify that the man sitting in the. courtroom as Tyler Robinson was the man. who was on those videos. And he also. recounted footage that was gathered from. nearby neighborhoods, including Ring. doorbell footage uh showing a vehicle. consistent with the one identified as. belonging to Robinson parking across the. street. Again, in the early hours of se. September 11th, what we would learn from. Hull is that Tyler Robinson was there. It reminded me, frankly, of Brian. Coberger, who, you know, stalked the location of.

his crime prior to committing it, of. course, was there while committing it, and then went back again after. That's. what they're saying Tyler Robinson did. as well. It It appears clear Tyler. Robinson was there repeatedly, at least. four times that day. They'll argue about. whether he pulled the trigger, but. they're setting up that he was there. repeatedly. And then today we got to the. videos that they found of Robinson. What. who of who they say is Robinson. You. look at these videos, you can't clearly. tell it's Robinson.

They're going to have to prove that, but. there's definitely video of the same guy. first in a maroon shirt and gray shorts. on the campus and later in an outfit. change. And they've got video of what. they say is Tyler Robinson's car because. now they know it's registered to him and. to his mother. There was testimony by. Hull to that effect. He's getting. cross-examined now. But I want to show. you first our compilation of the video. we were watching just as we came to air. And I should also tell you there was a. fight late yesterday about whether the.

prosecution's compilation of all these. videos where they highlighted the man. who were supposed to focus on. They. blurred the faces of some people. They. made it more user friendly. Was objected. to by the defense. She objects to. everything. She's getting. annoying. um objected to and. they didn't allow it in yesterday. Now. today they they laid the foundation by. showing all the raw videos and then they. asked the judge if they could then. introduce the compilation video which is.

a shorter summary that that's more user. friendly. She objected again and he. sustained the objection. So well at. least we we the media are not going to. be able to see the compilation video. so. he he can see it. But for some reason, they don't want to make it easier for. the media to see it. We'll do our own. Sorry to disappoint you, Miss Nester, but we're pretty good in the TV world of. taking raw video and zeroing in. I think. you're probably going to be happier with. what the prosecution did, frankly, because we're under no obligation, as.

the prosecutor is, to keep it completely. objective and admissible. So, whatever. Um, we did what we could in the time we. had before this just aired an hour and. 20 minutes ago, but here's three minutes. of what they showed the court on the. videos of who they say is Tyler Robinson. all over the UVO UVU campus that day. >> What are we seeing here, Agent Hall? >> Uh, that's the vehicle is believed to. belong to Mr. Robinson arriving in the. parking garage on campus.

>> At what time in the morning is what? Well, what what time of the day? Uh it's. approximately 8:30 in the morning on. September 10th, 2025. >> And and what leads you to believe that. this particular vehicle belongs to Mr. Robinson? >> Uh information uh that was provided um. regards to driver's license and. Department of Motor Vehicle records, the. vehicle fits the description of a. vehicle owned by Mr. Robinson. >> Is is there anything unique about that. vehicle that stands out to you? Uh the. the shape of the vehicle is is very.

distinct but predominantly the wheels. were very distinctive on this uh version. of the vehicle. >> Now what do we see? >> Uh the driver of the vehicle exits the. vehicle and then uh walks on foot to. exit the parking garage. It's the individual in the the red. t-shirt and the shorts and the shoes. >> And do you believe you recognize who. that person is? >> Yes. Who is that? >> Believe that's Tyler Robinson.

>> Right. Where does he go from there? >> Uh he heads out of the parking garage on. foot uh into the campus. um and actually goes to the quad area of. the campus. At that time he makes contact with uh. some representatives from TPUSA. >> By quad area, >> sorry, the the amphitheater is is what. I've previously referred it. [clears throat] to. >> All right. So he goes up onto campus, visits the the the amphitheater area, the courtyard or quad. >> Correct. >> Um and and then what do we see here now?

>> He returns on foot back to the same. vehicle. >> And what time is he returning back to. the vehicle? >> Uh it's about 9:25 a.m.

And where is this parking structure. located on campus? >> Uh it's it's just off of campus drive. Um it's a short walk from the from the. amphitheater. >> What do we see now? Uh. >> that's the vehicle exiting with Mr. Robinson driving the vehicle.

Now, what do we see? >> This is Mr. Robinson returning to the. campus on foot from um the neighborhood. to the northeast. You can see he's. wearing the same clothing as in the. previous video. and he's carrying a blue backpack. >> Describe the clothing. Uh, it's a maroon. colored t-shirt uh with uh gray or olive. colored shorts and then Converse shoes. >> And what time did he return to campus?

>> Uh, just after 10:00 a.m. >> And does he leave the parking structure. eventually? >> Uh, he does. Yes. >> And during this visit, do you know where. he goes after [snorts] he leaves the the. parking structure? >> Yes, we we're able to track his. movements on campus. He went to. Chick-fil-A. >> [snorts]. >> um in the Senson building. >> Mhm. >> And purchased some food, sat and ate the. food. >> Okay. So, that's him prior to the.

murder. And then they showed video of a. figure on the roof of the Losi building. And video that has been publicly. released. This is there. You can see a. figure running on the top right of your. screen running across. This is him post. shooting allegedly. And here now for listening audience, it. it's a figure who appears to throw. something down. He's on the the edge of. the roof. This has been made public. prior to this, so you you may be. familiar with it. And he drops to the.

ground into the grass where the where. the the officer had said he found a. footprint and runs. So this is what officer Baggley said he. witnessed when he went to the dispatch. center and said, you know, I I found. evidence on the of some guy on the roof. what do you have? And the dispatch. saying, "Oh, yeah. No, we've got that, too." So, they they found the video. All. right, let's bring in our panel now and. get their reactions. Dave Arinberg is. here. So is Phil Holloway. They are. co-hosts of the MK True Crime Show on. the MK Media Podcast Network. Go and. subscribe just by typing in MK True.

Crime in your podcast uh feed and it. will come up. Uh guys, thank you for. being back with me. So, Dave, just give. us your impression. I've given the. audience a lot here on what on what's. gone on yesterday and today. give us. your impression on what exactly is. happening, what the prosecution's. building, and what the defense is trying. to undermine. >> Megan, good to be back with you. And. Phil, this is the longest preliminary. hearing that I've ever seen for. something like this where you all you. have to do is establish probable cause. I mean, this should be done in hours,

but I think you're right that the reason. why the prosecution is just using. overwhelming force here. I mean, shock. and awe is to debunk the conspiracy. theories out there, especially since the. defense leaned into a ballistics report. that was inconclusive. The the. prosecution so far has not challenged. They've tried to like look away from the. inconclusive ballistics into all the. other evidence that's there, like his. multiple confessions, his position on. the roof, the video where he's running.

away. I mean, they've got a lot of. evidence against this guy, and they. don't need to show it, but they are. because they're aware of the gravity of. this moment, how many conspiracy. theories there are out there. Some of it. has been pushed by the defense. themselves, and they want to get ahead. of it. Phil, what do you make of my comment. that this guy's giving Brian Coberger. vibes with the multiple visits before. and even going back after midnight the.

day the the evening of the crime, like. after the crime was committed. >> Yeah, that's a that's an excellent. point. And you know, to echo Dave's um. very wellstated comments there, uh the. prosecutor is is showing way more of. their cards than they, in my view, than. they need to or they should. It's kind. of like when you play poker, you don't. show the rest of the table, you know, what you're holding in your hand. By by. giving this much detail and this much. evidence, you're just giving uh the.

defense the opportunity to pick it. apart, you know, for trial. But that. being said, what they're showing is. premeditation. and they're showing. deliberation. They're showing what they. really would need to show uh to get the. death penalty in this case. Now, this of. course isn't the trial and this is not. the the penalty phase or anything like. that, but it gives us a little bit of a. preview of what we're going to see when. there is a trial. And if you have this. much premeditation, deliberation, preparation, consciousness of guilt, the.

fleeing from the scene, uh things of. that nature, all of that goes to show. that this was cold. This was calculated. This is the abandoned and malignant. heart that uh that we use to describe. what malice is. This was truly a. malicious act. The videos themselves, I. think we could do for purposes of the. prelim. We could do with less of that. But the confession that we have yet to. get to, you know, that's corroborated by.

these videos. So, I agree with Dave to. to bring this all together. I think they. could have done this in about an hour or. two. You show the video of the shooting. of of Charlie Kirk. You show some of. these videos for context like we've. seen. And then you get to the. confession. And then you put a big bow. on it and say, "Okay, we're we're. getting ready for trial now because. we've established probable cause. A. crime probably was committed." Well, clearly that shows that a crime was. committed and that this defendant is. probably the one who committed it. That's it. That's all you need to prove.

This should be over in just a matter of. hours. But it's dragging on and on and. on, and it gives the defense more. opportunities to to chip away and to. prepare their defense for trial. Um, I just want to point out to the. listening audience, now we're looking at. a different video that was shown of who. they say is Tyler Robinson wearing a. different outfit. Now he's in the outfit. that the FBI says the shooter was. wearing and he's he's walking funny. There's speculation that that's because. he's got a long gun down his pants. Um,

he's walking kind of funny like with a. limp. He's no longer wearing the gray. shirts and shorts and the maroon. t-shirt. And the testimony in court is. that this is after the shooting. After. the shooting or before the shooting. We're trying to figure this out. Forgive. me. Um because we we grabbed this video. and enhanced it like zoomed in just so. you could see it better. Um but it must. be it's got to be before the shooting. because I I believe this is the video. from which they made the pictures that.

we identified Tyler Robinson. And the. allegation is that after the shooting, he jumped off of the rooftop and dropped. the gun down below and then buried it or. hid it in the woods. So this my. deduction is it's got to be on his way. to the shooting. [clears throat]. >> But the here's the question I have for. you, Dave Arinberg. The prosecution. needs to prove they want to prove that. this was him. That he. he stalked his prey. You know, he he. showed up at 9 at 8:30 a.m. the morning. of Charlie's appearance, that he was. there for an hour. They said he it took.

him he arrived at 8:30 and he left at. 9:25. And in that time he went to the. quad and he made contact with a TPA. TPUSA. uh representative. Maybe he's asking. exactly when Charlie's expected. You. know, who knows? That poor Turning Point. rep will probably wind up being a. witness and had no idea, right, who. they're talking to or who they're giving. information to. Um and then he returns. They said a little after 10:00 a.m. We.

saw the car pulling out of the garage at. 9:25. a little after 10:00 a.m. They. said he returned on foot, but they said. he returned on foot with the same outfit. that uh maroon tea and the gray shorts. and that he went to Chick-fil-A at the. Sorenson Center on campus and then. returned back on campus like on proper. campus, no longer carrying the backpack. And I believe that's when he changed his. outfit and got rid of the backpack. that. that we need to shore up because that.

that was not clear to me from what I. heard. But it's one thing to tell the. judge and eventually the jury, Dave, that's Tyler Robinson. There he is. And. it's another to prove it, right? Because. if you're Neester, she's questioning. everything. She is not giving the. prosecution any gimmies. It's actually. annoying. But on this, she should. question, right? She should say, "How do. you know it's Tyler Robinson?" Now, on. the on the car, they've they've got the. registration. They can see the plates. and the the car there. The the officer.

testified is registered to Tyler and his. mother and there was testimony that she. bought it for him. Um, so I guess that's. halfway there. Then you got to prove. that's actually him getting out of it. So how do they do all that if you're the. prosecutor as you have been for years? How do you do that? >> Step by step. Megan first they. identified his Dodge Challenger and then. because they ran his license plate, they. had driver's license details. So, they. know that that's his car. And then you. had agent Hull who testified uh that the.

person in the video showed a distinctive. limp that that you could see it. yourself. Um and then you want to try to. tie it to him. Uh once that Robinson had. turned himself in, they could correlate. that the timeline matched the digital. footprint, including the cell phone data. and the specific route that was. identified via the the Google map. records. So the fact that he was there.

on campus four times that day, that does. give the Cobberger vibe. Someone who's. scouting it out, who then comes back. over and over again. Um, I just think. that you just have to put all the stuff. together and with all the totality of. the evidence to show that this is the. guy. Uh, the defense is doing the right. thing by asking all these questions. Although, yeah, she's getting a little. annoying, but she is using this as a way. to get the cards, as Phil said, from the. prosecution. The prosecution is showing.

so much evidence. They're giving the. defense a great amount of stuff that. they wouldn't normally have. So, this. hearing can actually benefit the defense. more than the prosecution because. they're getting all this good info even. though they don't have Twigs in person. >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Well, they're not. going to get they're not going to be. able to talk to Twigs, but uh yeah, they're going to hear what he what he. has to say. I mean, to me, it's. interesting because Phil all this stuff. like doesn't the defense already have. access to all of this, right? The. prosecution doesn't get surprises. They.

have to turn everything over to the. defense. And so it's different to hear. them stitch it together and to hear. their narrative, but the defense should. not be surprised by any of these. exhibits. >> No, they're not surprised by the. evidence or the exhibits. But here's. what they don't have until there's a. hearing. They don't have sworn testimony. from these witnesses under oath. And let. me explain just a minute, if I may, why. that could backfire on the prosecution. Because these are witnesses that are.

going to come forward at trial. Okay? There's going to be a transcript of this. preliminary hearing and the testimony. from these witnesses. If their story is. any different, if their testimony varies. one iota at trial, the defense is going. to whip out the uh printed transcript of. this particular testimony and they're. going to even if it's just innocuous, if. it's something just a minor misstatement. or or something like that, they're going. to try to show the jury that they said.

one thing during the preliminary hearing. and then something else during the trial. and they're going to try to impeach them. potentially with any prior inconsistent. statements. The other thing that it. does, it gives the defense sort of the. opportunity to see how witnesses. testify, how do they do on. cross-examination, what's their. demeanor, how are they going to play to. a jury. So, this really does uh give the. defense a lot to work with. We have a. group text amongst our uh MK truth crime.

hosts and and we've been talking about. this case and uh our friend and. colleague Mark Geros commented that this. length of a uh um preliminary hearing is. is good for the defense and he's not. wrong. He's absolutely right. This was a. mistake to to do it u the way they're. doing it for this to go on for so long. They need to just get the core evidence. out there. or they have to prove that a. crime probably was committed and that. this guy probably did it and that's it.

They could do it like we were talking. about just in a matter of a few hours. Um the other thing they could have done. is they could have sent this to a grand. jury for a grand jury indictment so that. that would be a judicial determination. of probable cause. But by doing it in. this fashion, uh not only are they. frustrating the us in the media because. we can't see all of the evidence that. the judge is seeing, but they're giving. the defense uh lots to work with when it. comes to trial preparation. >> But listen to this, Bill. This the the. the failure to use a grand jury and to.

go for a preliminary hearing where you. have to lift the dress way up has. boggled the [clears throat] minds of a. lot of lawyers, including this one. But. we actually did take a deep dive into. it. We had been told yesterday that it's. it's not favored in Utah. They don't use. grand juries a lot. And then we did a. deep dive and here is what we found. Um. in Utah's criminal justice system, grand. jury indictments are rare. Um the Utah. Supreme Court laid this out in a 2015. decision. The vast majority of felony. cases are prosecuted by information, that is by a prosecutor filing charges.

directly in district court. The. historical role of the grand jury is now. generally played by the district court. itself, which holds preliminary hearings. to review the state's evidence and. reject unjustified prosecutions. Um, a. prosecutor wishing to prosecute by. indictment must first persuade a special. panel of five district judges, this is. if you want to go jury, grand jury, that. there is good cause to summon a grand. jury. If the panel then summons the. grand jury, the prosecutor may then ask.

the jurors to return an indictment and. charge the defendant without a. preliminary hearing. But they make it. intentionally difficult. For some. reason, they really don't like. impaneling grand juries in Utah, which. is why they do the preliminary hearing. And once you've said, you know, you're. going to ask the district court to give. you an indictment, the defendant has the. right to demand the prelim preliminary. hearing. And and that's, you know, Bob's. your uncle. you're off to the races, which is what happened here. I don't. know why they don't like the grand jury, but they don't like it in Utah. That's.

why the prosecution is doing it this. way. Um, I want to go back to these. videos because. this video that we're going to see here, we showed part of it just a moment ago. of him now in a different outfit. This. is the outfit that was released by the. FBI as being worn by Charlie's killer. And this is the these are the pictures. This is the video of the still shots. that were used to identify who is this.

shooter. The FBI put it out on September. 11th saying, "This is our shooter. Does. anybody know who this is?" And it would. turn out that Tyler Robinson's own. mother and father saw it and both said, "Oh my god, that's our son." They both. started texting him. The mother saying, "Where are you?" He claimed he was sick, homesick, and that he had been the day. before. or the father saying, "Send me a. picture of grandpa's gun. >> right now." Because he knew the FBI had. released the picture that law.

enforcement had it, had recovered the. gun. And the the father recognized it. And they were also worried because they. saw the pictures of the shooter and they. said, "Geez, that looks a lot like. Tyler." You know, it's like the same way. we've been looking at Porch Guy in the. Nancy Guthrie case, saying, "We don't. know who the hell that is." But if you. were married to that dude, you would. know you, you know, when it's your. family member, your spouse, your kid, your dad, you know, in a way that. strangers don't. So now we're seeing the. actual videotape from which these still. images were were taken. And and this is.

what was played in court just as we were. coming to air. And we'll hear the. narrative about the videotape. We showed. you Tyler Robinson allegedly in the. maroon shirt and the gray shorts, parking, coming in at 8:30, leaving at. 9:25. Then he came back at 10:00. And. now there's here's the testimony about. the video of who they say is Tyler. wearing the same outfit as the shooter. here. >> The images that we have are.

from from my viewing and and seeing Mr. Robinson on the video, it's the same. person. Uh, he's noticeably wearing different. clothing. >> He is wearing different clothing. And he. also is walking with a gate or a limp in. this video. >> With a gate or what? >> A limp. >> Now, what do we see? So, it's Mr. Robinson coming up the stairs of the.

parking structure. again. He seems to be having issues. walking. >> And again, were we able to track So, were we able to track Mr. Robinson. uh when he leaves this parking.

structure? >> Yes, we were able to. Okay. >> So, when he leaves. Okay. So, then they continue and they're. the testimony is that this is prior to. the shooting. I mean, Dave, this is. actually quite eerie. You know, we're. we're sort of doing a forensic analysis. of it, but what they're arguing is that. he was on his way to murder our friend. who was out there asking questions would. kissed his wife Erica goodbye early that. morning while she was still in bed. It. was he left so early. Who couldn't sleep.

the night before. who had a feeling. about something possibly happening, who. had been under non-stop security. threats, who was not well served, unfortunately, by good-hearted men who. were supposed to protect him that that. day, who didn't anticipate. the rooftops notwithstanding Butler 14. months earlier. And Tyler Robinson, according to the police and the. prosecution, had murder on his mind and.

was limping because that long gun. >> given to him by his grandpa was running. down his pant leg and would be one of. the reasons he would get caught because. he, you know, if you believe the text. messages between Tyler and his lover. Lance Twigs, he hid it in the woods on. his escape and couldn't get back to it. the cops got got turned on to the woods. too soon and so he wasn't able to get. back and maybe that's why he went back. there because if memory serves we. weren't aware that they had the gun.

until the next day you know so it could. be at 12:38 a.m. on the wee hours of. Thursday the the 11th. That's what he. was doing back there, trying to clean up. after himself and couldn't manage to do. it. >> Yeah. Megan, quick question if I can. jump. Didn't Wasn't there some, as I. recall, um some of the statements that. he made to Twigs were of the effect. that, you know, I I need to go back for. my rifle. As I recall, that was what the. conversation was, and we're going to.

hear more about that, of course, when we. hear from Twigs, but that will or at. least through his statement. And then of. course at trial we'll hear from Twigs. and anybody else. Uh but but that I. think explains why he went back. And uh. you know it makes sense that if you're. going to sort of preposition items that. you may need for an assassination, uh. you might make multiple trips to go get. your spot set up, get your sniper den. set up, and then have to leave in a. hurry and then go back to to clean up. your mess. So this all actually makes. pretty good sense to me.

Yes, he is lamenting in his text. exchange with Lance Twigs how he he. wasn't able to get his rifle and he. thought that was the only thing that. could identify him. Um, there was also. testimony the Well, Dave, I wanted to. get you to respond to my my other point. about how eerie it is and how they're. setting it up and how, you know, it's. all so forensic and antiseptic and yet. you know exactly what these actions. allegedly produced. >> Yeah, this had to take some real. planning. You know, he had different. outfits. He was limping when he had the.

gun on him and then later he's not. He's. wearing something different later on and. then he had to try to find out how to. get the gun back. Even messaged Twigs at. some point about how they'll be together. later on uh in in life. So, this took. planning and that means premeditation. and that means the death penalty. And it. is quite telling that this judge had. every opportunity to take the death. penalty off the table because he is. holding the prosecutors in contempt for.

speaking too much for giving a statement. to TMZ, which I think is overplay. I. don't think the judge should do that, but okay. And but instead of sanctioning. the prosecution by taking the death. penalty off the table, he's refusing to. do that. He's leaving it open to other. sanctions. And that tells you that I. think that this is going to be a capital. case and that it's very likely that this. defendant gets the ultimate punishment. >> Mhm. Yes. Yes. And if they prove this. case beyond a reasonable doubt, that's. exactly what he should get. Um there.

should be absolutely no mercy for him. He had none for Charlie. Here is um some. of what was in that text exchange that. they say is between Lance Twigs and. Tyler Robinson. um as he starts to panic. [clears throat]. that. hold on a second that that the gun has. been left there. Let's see. Says I'm. stuck in Orum. I I am still okay. He he. starts off with this September 10th, the.

day of the the murder. Lance Twigs received a text message from. Tyler Robinson which said, "Drop what. you're doing. Look under my keyboard.". He looked under the keyboard. He found a. note that stated, "I had the opportunity. to take out Charlie Kirk and I'm going. to take it." Police found a photograph. of the note, I believe, on Lance Twig's. phone. Then the following text exchange. took place. After reading the note, Lance Twigs responded, "What? You're. joking, right, Robinson? I am still. okay, my love, but I'm stuck in Orum for. a little while longer yet. Shouldn't be. long until I can come home, but I got to.

grab my rifle still." To be honest, I. had hoped to keep this secret till I. died of old age. I'm sorry to involve. you, roommate, you weren't the one who. did it, right, Robinson? I am. I'm. sorry, roommate. I thought they caught. the person. Robinson said, "No, they. grabbed some crazy old dude, then. interrogated someone in similar. clothing." I had planned to grab my. rifle from my drop point shortly after, but most of that side of town got locked. down. It's quiet, almost enough to get. out, but there's one vehicle lingering. Roommate: Why, Robinson? Why did I do. it? Roommate: Yeah. Robinson, I I had.

enough of his hatred. Some hate can't be. negotiated out. If I am able to grab my. rifle unseen, I will have left no. evidence. Going to attempt to retrieve. it again. Hopefully, they have moved on. I haven't seen anything about them. finding it. Again, they didn't release. the time stamp on this, but one might. assume it's prior to 12:38 a.m. on the. 11th, which is when they said he did he. is on video again. Um, roommate, how. long have you been planning this, Robinson? A bit over a week, I believe.

I can get close to it, but there's a. squad car parked right by it. I think. they already swept that spot, but I. don't want to chance it. He goes on, I'm. wishing I had circled back and grabbed. it as soon as I got to my vehicle. I'm. worried what my old man would do if I. didn't bring back Grandpa's rifle. I. don't even know if it had a serial. number, but it wouldn't trace to me. I. worry about Prince. I had to leave it in. a bush where I changed outfits. Didn't. have the ability or time to bring it. with. I might have to abandon it and. hope they don't find Prince. How the.

am I going? Will I explain losing. it to my old man? Only thing I left was. the rifle wrapped in a towel. And then. goes on to say, "Remember how I was. engraving bullets? The effing messages. are mostly a big meme. Blah blah blah. blah blah. Judging from today, I'd say. grandpa's gun does just fine.". >> I know. >> See what I mean? All they got to do is. all they got to do is is. >> show the video of the assassination and. then some context and then get into that.

particular text message confession with. all those details and then you've got. probable cause. It's like right there. with a bow on it. And so I I just am. still scratching my head why this is. going to be something that takes an. entire week. I've handled prelims that. take five minutes. I've handled them. that take a few hours. But we certainly. uh are not accustomed, at least not in. in in my neck of the woods anyway, to. preliminary hearings that go on for days. and days and days. That would be called. a trial. U but this is is just a bit of.

overkill if you ask me, pardon the pun, but for a preliminary hearing, this is. just too much. >> This has got to be for the benefit of. someone other than that judge, does it. not, Dave? >> Absolutely. That that is for the public. It's for all of us. And it's to try to. quell the conspiracy theories. I think. that foreign governments are behind him. They're just showing this guy has. admitted it. There's no ties to anyone. else. He did it for a clear motive. He. was upset at Charlie Kirk for stuff he.

said. He decided to play God, take. matters into his own hands, and he. wanted to win the affections of Twigs. and live happily ever after together. He. thought he'd get away with it. He was. already uh you know, pretty much just. saying, "Oh, his concern was not. necessarily that they'd find the gun and. tie it to him and he would get. convicted." It was, "Oh, my father is. going to be upset that grandpa's gun is. not back. Oh, wow." So, yeah. Not good. >> I mean, like, I How do we like I.

I don't know, maybe I'm just being. naive, but it's like, how does somebody. who was relatively high functioning up. to this point. become so cavalier about murder? Like, oh, I've been planning it for like a. week. like a week earlier he got the. idea to murder Charlie Kirk in this and. I don't use this favorably but you know. what I mean spectacular fashion and then. he does it and then it's like ah the.

grandpa's rifle works great like he's. not by anybody else's account some. massive sociopath running around. torturing animals Phil like isn't that. one of the biggest mysteries around this. case and one of one of the reasons why. people have doubts about whether he in. fact is the shooter. It's like what? How. did this guy who according to that one. video we saw of his mom shortly before. he went off to college had I think he. had gotten a scholarship. Now he didn't. last at the university to which he'd. gotten the scholarship but he was you.

know prior to this year leading up to. the shooting he seems to have been. rather high functioning and it you. really do have to ask yourself how how. did this happen? Well, in my opinion, the thing that happened to Tyler. Robinson that transformed him from a. relatively high functioning individual. to a brazen assassin was the. normalization. uh of political violence and the violent. rhetoric that we hear from so many uh.

particularly on the left who uh may take. issue with uh anything that. conservatives have to say. Look, it's no. no secret whatsoever that uh you know, Charlie Kirk um inspired lots of people. to to think about things and to talk. about things. And what he did in life. was to try to get people talking to each. other so that they could have a free. exchange of ideas. But uh for so many. people that's just not tenable. they. they want to hear something that someone. else says and if it's different from.

their point of view, uh then they. believe that it's okay to commit acts of. violence or to talk about violence. against those people. So that to me is. the simple explanation. I think it's the. one that makes the most sense because to. your point, Megan, there's got to be. something that that causes someone to. snap that way. He doesn't apparently. have any other psychiatric disabilities. or or disorders. He doesn't seem to be. like a sociopath. He's not like some of.

the serial killers that we've seen. Uh. he's not like a Cobberger type in that. sense. This is all about um the. normalization. uh in my opinion of political violence. and and this is how it plays out. >> Megan, this is Luigi Manion. I mean, this is the same type of of thing. >> I know. I was thinking of him too. >> Yeah. And and not only so when you're. surprised about how people can be so. radicalized. Luigi Manion from Ivy. League schools, no priors, and look what. happens to him. And then you see today. all these ghouls who are hanging out.

outside the courtroom praising Luigi. Manion and and worshiping him knowing. that he did this. It's not like they're. saying he didn't do it. He's innocent. No, they're saying no, this is deserved. This is justified in today's political. climate. that line, some hate can't be negotiated. out. Just chilling, you know? It's like. to to believe that and think you have. you have the right to end someone's life.

because they're too hateful to be here. You know, it's like and then to have. watched the left defend this for the. past 10 months. You know, that Lucy. Rodriguez pretending to shoot herself in. the neck. She's still teaching children. in Chicago. This that behavior wasn't. too too extreme for them to fire her. Like there is just a collection of. people out there that finds this kind of. kind of political violence acceptable. It's so deeply disturbing. It's I wish. it were just the shooters. I wish it.

were, but it's not. There's a. collection, like you say, of those who. show up at the Luigi hearings who think. it's fine. of those who have celebrated. Charlie's murder, who at at heart think. it's fine and actually applaud it, actually are in favor of it. It's sick. Dave, thank you for helping to put. people like that behind bars for many, many years. Phil, thanks to you as well. Everybody, check them out on MK True. Crime, uh, wherever you get your. podcasts for free. We're going to come. back with more on the hearing with Mark. Geragos, Mark Iglar, and Janna Spilbar.

Spillbore. All three of these uh. practice in the criminal arena, have. been on both sides, at least Mark uh. Iglar has, and we'll get their take on. where this is going, [music]. and show you the latest that's happening. inside the courtroom. Our sponsor, the. Electronic Payments Coalition, says. Washington politicians are always. getting in your wallet, which you know, and now they're messing with your credit. card, too. They say your credit card and. the security it offers are under attack.

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networks with weaker security and fewer. protections. Find out more about this. whole situation at guardyoucard.com. and consider telling Congress to guard. yourcard. We want to show you a video now that. they showed and testified to [music] the. prosecution of the man they say is Tyler. Robinson getting off of the roof right. after the shooting. Let's watch. >> Do you see Mr. Robinson now?

>> I do. Yes. He's just arriving at the. corner of the building. almost top center of the image. >> Hang. He's about to hang off the side. and then drop down into the grass. >> What are we seeing now? >> Mr. Robinson lowering and jumping off of. the roof of the Loy Loy building onto. the grass area and then moving away. towards Campus Drive. And he appears to be carrying some kind. of an object in his hand at this time.

So he's approaching. >> campus drive. >> and again broken into quadrants. Where. is he currently? >> In the top white right quadrant. >> and the time. >> uh it's 12. must be right at the shooting was at. 12:23.

uh Utah time. Joining me now, Mark. Geragos, co-host of In the Well on our. MK Media podcast network, and Mark. Iglarsh and Jonas Spilbore, hosts of. Positively Legal. You can find both. shows on our MK True Crime YouTube. channel and podcast feeds. Guys, thank. you for being here. You know, it is kind. of interesting to hear him say over and. over, "That's Tyler Robinson. That's. Tyler Robinson." I wonder if should that. draw an objection, Garagos? I would, you. know, that's why your your day job uh.

takes away from what you uh could have. been practicing because asking that. question. I would have been objecting. I. would have been standing up and I would. have been saying there's no way in the. world that there's any foundation for I. for the identification. It's leading. It's argumentative and there's. absolutely it calls for speculation on. top of it. >> This Nester objects to everything but. not that. Mark Iglar, what's the story. there? Do you think they're gonna. concede that that's him? >> Yeah, probably. I mean, that's really.

the the best thing you can do. Um, you. don't really have much in the way of. he's been framed like the Mona Lisa. You. know, if you connect the dots, it's so. clearly him. I heard that they're going. to be calling like three forensic. witnesses. Like, what's that about? My. guess is that's state of mind. So, they. would probably have to concede. But only. once the prosecution lays out their case. and now everybody knows, okay, his goose. is cooked and then what do we do? Let's. go to state of mind. >> H I don't know. I think that they may be.

getting ready to argue he's not the. shooter and maybe I don't know why she's. not objecting though. She objects to. literally everything. Maybe there was an. objection to like a blanket to that's. not him and we don't want him saying. that that she's just preserved it. But I. think she may there's a chance she may. argue actual innocence that it wasn't he. wasn't the shooter that okay you've. proven he showed up on at on campus at. 8:30 in the morning and he drove away at. 9:25 and he came back at 10:00 but at he. was wearing a different outfit and there.

you you want us to believe he's the. shooter based on what? Like that wasn't. him in the stairwell. You don't have. close-up video of any of the guy on the. roof who appears to have been the. shooter. Um arguably they may not even. concede that. uh and try to get him off. on an actual innocence defense. Stand. by. We got to take a break thanks to. [music] our SiriusXM sponsorship which. we appreciate very much. We'll come back. and we'll pick it up right there with. Janna. Don't go away. We are back now. with Mark Garagos, co-host of In [music]. the Well on our MK Media podcast.

network. Mark Iglarsh and Janna Spilbar. who host Positively Legal. You can find. it all on our MK True Crime YouTube. channel, MK True Crime. Just type that. in and all these shows will come up. Janna, we were going to get your take on. where things stand as of right now. >> Katherine Netor cannot have a realistic. expectation that this case is not going. to be bound over for trial. So, what I. think she's doing, and which is pretty. clear from this dog and pony show, she.

is simply setting up now testimony that. will become useful when and if this case. goes to trial to sort of have police. officers and other witnesses tripping. over their tongues based on maybe. testifying differently at trial than. they are now. Now, we don't want that to. happen when you're prosecuting this. case. But when you get down this. granular and you try to get this. nitty-gritty with these witnesses who. are going to have a long time before. this case goes to trial, who will have. to review their testimony in transcripts.

before the the case goes to trial, that's just an opportunity to chip away. in front of what is really going to. matter here, and that's a jury. And that. goes to the identification of Tyler. Robinson, too. She's probably preserving. those objections because that's an. argument better made or that's evidence. better laid before a jury. Do they have. the right guy? That's that argument is. going to fall flat in front of this. judge, but it may not fall flat in front. of 12 strangers down the road.

You know, I was asking uh my earlier. panel, how do they prove that this is. Tyler Robinson in these videos? Arriving. at the campus at 8:30, leaving at 9:25, coming back a little after 10:00 on. foot, coming in an outfit change, now. limping because prosecutors are going to. argue he's got a long gun down the leg. of his pants and then ultimately on that. roof. And one of the things we haven't. really seen anything about or heard.

anything about is cell phone evidence or. the data from the car, you know, like we. saw in Alec Murdoch. You know, we heard. so much about that crime thanks to his. car. Your car is spying on you these. days. So, what do you make of that? How. how helpful do you anticipate those. other items could be? Okay. So, I equate. the video that we're seeing now to, I. don't know, like bloodshot eyes in a DUI.

case. That in and it of itself wouldn't. necessarily prove anything beyond a. reasonable doubt. It's just one piece of. the puzzle. The other evidence, like the. DNA and the confession, will definitely. go a long way towards increasing the. chances of him being convicted at trial, assuming there is one. the absence of. cell phone data either is because they. haven't yet put it in or they better as. hell have an explanation from one of. their experts as to why for some reason. they don't have it in this case because. people have come to expect it.

>> well especially because we know he was. texting with Lance Twigs I mean. allegedly uh later that evening about. allegedly having done it. So, I mean, if. that's true, he should have had his cell. phone or a laptop on him, both of which. would be potentially traceable. >> and should tell us exactly where he was. and when, shouldn't they, Mark Aragos, it's very hard. >> to hide. >> your tracks these days. >> That's correct. which is in most people. who have a couple of neurons firing. If.

you're committing a crime, you're not. going to take your phone with you or. you're going to have what prosecutors. love to call a burner phone with you. that doesn't have a smartphone feature. of some kind uh that's traceable. If he planned this, the prosecutor is. going to argue if they don't have cell. phone evidence or if the phone is. sitting in one particular spot during. the time that the shooting took place,

they're going to say he didn't take it. with him and that'll be the explanation. for it. If they have the cell phone uh. evidence and the data and the. triangulation and the pinging off the. towers and also the GPS feature, then. they may just use that coming uh later. on as kind of the cudigra. They may have. a. >> yes so-called summary witness who will. lay it all out at the end. But. >> I think that's coming later. I think. you're right because it's not listed on.

the items that they anticipate. introducing at this preliminary hearing, which again, they only need to convince. this judge that they have probable cause. to believe that Tyler Robinson committed. this crime. They don't have to prove it. beyond a reasonable doubt. The standards. of evidence are relaxed. It's just a. much different proceeding than an actual. jury trial would be. And the standard is. different, too. Here's another video. This is uh testimony that was received. not long ago showing another piece of. the trail. We showed earlier the video. of him allegedly arriving at 8:30 and.

then leaving at 9:25. And now here's. more uh testimony from this witness. who's been walking us through all the. videos they have allegedly of Tyler. Robinson. Check it out. >> And and what time is this? >> Uh it's just afternoon about 12:15. >> On what day? >> On December. sorry December September 10th, 2025. Okay. What what just happened or what. did we just see happen? >> The individual actually kind of rolls.

over the railing onto the roof of the. Losi building. >> All right. Um. >> and again in the top left corner, the. individual is now seen running across. the rooftop of the Losi building. to what would be the southwest corner. of the building. Mhm. >> Uh crouching down and then crawling to. the corner of the building. And and this is at what time? >> Um around 12:23.

>> I think the time stamp on the video is. 12:22. >> on the 10th. >> on September 10th. Yes. 2025. >> So we're clear. This is the roof of the. Losi building. >> Correct. >> Can you still see that individual? >> Uh yes, you can. Lane prone. that is. >> playing prone. I mean, >> wait, what' you say, Garagos? >> That individual, both the questions and. the answers that describe the.

individual. >> Mhm. But we've seen the close-up video. of the individual, and he's wearing the. same outfit as, you know, the the one. that they would later say is the. shooter, and please help us identify. him, who they say is Tyler Robinson. I. just think like there's going to be. there's this is how it's done. Is it. not? I mean, you guys tell me, but like. if you're a prosecutor, you've got to. cobble together bit by bit. Tyler. Robinson's car reentered the UVU campus.

at whatever right before 12:15. The. shooting happened at 12:23. They've got. him on the roof or this figure who now. looks exactly like Tyler Robinson who's. returned. We've got his vehicle. Perhaps. they have vehicle of him or video of him. getting out of his vehicle. I'm not. exactly sure whether they I haven't seen. that. I've only seen him show up in his. vehicle at 8:30, leave at 9:25, that. they said he came back at 10:00 a.m. and. then he came back again. He left and. then came back. It could have been on. foot. Um, but in any event, they're. trying to establish that it's him. He.

changed his outfit. Now he's got the. long gun. It's down his pants. Now we've. got video of somebody who looks an awful. lot like that figure who was just. limping on camera who looks exactly like. him on top of a roof, lying down, lying. prone, and they're going to have the. moment of the shooting as well. We've. shown them just today. Hey, we shown on. the audience of of the video of the. shooter then running off the roof, jumping down. I mean, this is very. unusual, Janna, to have the entire crime. on tape. Like, this is kind of a. prosecution dream. Yeah, it is. Because. you can't uh swing a dead cat without.

being on video these days. And this is a. classic circumstantial case. And the. fact that it's a capital case doesn't. change that. I mean, how often do we. have uh criminal cases where we see the. person shoot the victim? I mean, it does. happen sometimes, but it doesn't happen. always. There are plenty of other crimes. where we have to piece it together. because nobody is an eyewitness to the. actual event that is the crime. And this. is going to be one of them. And again, here we here we are in the in the.

preliminary stage literally of this case. where, you know, I'm a little surprised. that the prosecutor isn't holding back. some like they should really be doing a. bare bones and not allowing a five-day. dog and pony show for the defense to set. this up the way they're doing it. I'm. surprised that the prosecution is kind. of playing into the defense's hand here. that way. >> There we go, Megan. That's the point. Two two things that are very unusual. one, Janna making some metaphor about. swinging a cat. I don't know what she's. doing in her spare time. Sorry.

>> Um I don't get that. And [laughter] and. number two, and number two, in reality, in real life, and Garagos, I'm sure, would say the same. And Janna, this. would be a two-hour hearing. Hearsay's. admissible. Let's just get through it. Did the crime probably occur? Is it. probably him? That's the lowest. standard. Probable cause. We're done. Now, I was okay with it cuz I was like, "God, there's a lot of conspiracy. theorists out there. They all think he's.

not guilty." And then they start doing. this trial. And then the feedback we're. getting on social media and at my law. firm where they're calling calling my. assistant saying, "I'm a nut for giving. legal analysis suggesting that there. might be evidence that he's guilty.". >> People are either not watching or they. don't want to hear. So, what's the. point? If it's not helping the public, then get through it in two hours and. prove it to a jury, which is the only. thing that damn matters. >> It's been interesting, >> you know, to the end to the end on. Coberger, we had Coberger truthers, you.

know, the guy pleaded guilty to. quadruple homicide and still we had. truthers who were like, "No, it wasn't. him." I was like, "Yeah, I in my. experience, you you just a true. conspiracy theorist, and not everybody. who doubts Tyler Robinson's guilt is a. conspiracy theorist. Some some are, but. a true conspiracy theorist can never be. convinced out of the conspiracy. It does. not matter what you show to them." So,

you raise an interesting point, I if if. this really is for conspiracy theorists. in the truest sense of that term, they're wasting their time. But if it's. for jury pool members who may just be. confused or have doubts and the. prosecution's convinced if they see some. of this tape, they won't have them and. could potentially serve uh once this. jury is chosen. Maybe it's different. You know, I mean, >> that's a miscarriage of justice. That. shouldn't happen. The purpose should not. be to poison the potential jury pool if.

it's to, you know, >> or I think they'd argue unpoison. M it shouldn't it should have nothing to. do with that. It shouldn't it shouldn't. be to influence the jury pool in any. respect. That's not due process. Period. >> Go ahead, Gagos. >> Well, the the interesting thing is I've. I've evolved, if you will, on cameras in. the courtroom. I now fervently believe. that you should have cameras in the.

courtroom for trials. I think that it's. vital, especially what I call. superersized trials like this, you. should have cameras in the courtroom. I. think, and I agree with Janna and Mark, and actually Phil was also talking about. it along with Dave, the prosecution. could put this case on in minutes. I. wouldn't even say hours. I mean this I. used to have a friend who was a DA who. used to see how many how few questions. he could ask in order to get somebody.

held to answer and I think his winning. one was what happened next what happened. next please hold the answer but that I. think the prosecution's calculation is. that they want to make this appear to be. a slam dunk case for whatever reason I. won't go into their motives because all. this does is give the defense the. ability to engage in what the defense. should be doing, which is exactly what.

they are doing during this preliminary. hearing. What I do, I'm sure, what Mark. and Janna do. You presented with a. series of witnesses. You're going to. question, you're going to test, you're. going to push. However, uh to also their. point, the pro this is not the trial. So. it is improper to try to influence a. jury pool. But from a defense. standpoint, that jury pool is. overwhelmingly already has a prejudgment. rate of guilt. The one kind of niche, if.

you will, is kind of the I you call them. the truthers. I would just call them the. tinfoil hatw wearers who generally until. they hear the words out of somebody's. mouth do not believe it no matter what. you pres. >> and even then. >> right [clears throat]. >> AI generated not real yeah. >> or or just like forced into it under. threat of what I don't know how people. say Coberger didn't you know it's like I.

I'm done I I don't feel the need to. reason with those people you know it's. like okay. >> what. >> take care like believe whatever the hell. you want. I don't care. He's in jail. That's the important thing. >> It's actually I think to their point, I. think the pro I think this backfires on. the prosecution in a lot of ways. Ultimately, it may not make any. difference, but it certainly is not. moving the ball forward for them in. terms of uh th those who believed he's. guilty aren't going to come away from. this having their minds changed. those.

who. >> I know. >> the conspiracy they're. >> well that's that's what makes me sad. because you know like I see some of my. friends like fervently retweeting some. of these segments and these videos being. like you see and they're not showing it. to their audience on X or elsewhere to. show them what's happening at the. hearing to say this is what the. prosecution has this is how they're. stitching together the case they're. tweeting it to say this disproves this. piece of whatever conspiracy theory This.

disproves this. It's like you are. wasting your time and your breath. Like. one thing I know from 20 plus years in. news is there is no disproving a. conspiracy theory in the mind of a true. conspiracy theorist. It's not possible. They will just continue moving the. goalposts. And then when you ask them to sit across. from you and explain how it all went. down, like how was this person.

controlled? By whom? How would they. argue this? How how did they get. control? What is the evidence of it? How. like they can't do it? They will just. get out of bounds because it's just the. way the mind works. And part of the. issue is we've had so many conspiracy. theories come true over the past few. years. You know, like we we did find out. that CO was from a lab and it wasn't. from a pengalin in some wet market. We.

were lied to about that. We did find out. that the vaccine caused myocarditis and. other issues, especially in young. teenage boys, which we were lied. to about it. We did find out that the. six-foot rule of not getting close to. one another was totally made up and had. no basis in science trademarked. We did. find out that Jay Bodacharia was not. some conspiracy theorist. He was a. legitimate doctor who was raising real. concerns about whether we should just do. focused protection on the elderly and. not quarantine masses uh the masses.

across America and the globe. Like COVID. in particular was a was an experience in. which conspiracy theories wound up all. being true and the real nut cases were. the ones in government power lying to. us. There's a real hangover from that, right? And like people disbelieving. official narratives. >> It's so true. I I as one who was was. litigating during that entire COVID.

period. I mean, I remember the the. restaurants, outdoor restaurants, and. having to fight that fight and sue the. government. And to quote Gorsuch, this. idea that this case out of Boston, Jacobson, US Supreme Court case became a. towering presence. The problem that. COVID presented is that people who are. already had mental health issues, it. amplified those issues. And people who. didn't have mental health issues, who.

were trying trying to rationally examine. stuff were basically kind of forced in. or lumped in with the others. And it is. unfortunate co to your point I mean that. was one of the best 90 seconds summaries. I've heard since listening to corola. talk about it that the co did an. enormous amount of damage to the US and. specifically in California where I am.

California just became kind of unmed. from reality and rationality. I mean, when you think back to bulldozing the. the beaches or arresting a guy on a. paddle board, I mean, it it sounds. insane now, but at the time it was, you. know, you were you were pillaried if you. disagreed with it. And that. >> yeah, >> lays the foundation for now kind of this. taking a circumstantial evidence case, which by the way, the law says it. There. are two reasonable interpretations, the.

one that points towards innocence. But. we've lost kind of this ability. collectively to believe what is. reasonable or rational at a certain. level. >> There's a couple of other things just. just to add. You know, the Ebstein. controversy where people believe that. there really was some elite cabal. covering up for other elites so that. they wouldn't go down. And then there. was a revolt when the administration. didn't want to release any more Epstein.

documents. But it was done. And look. what happened. a bunch of people went. down. You know, the that UK um official, I don't remember his name, but he fell. Um the the UK's had actually a lot more. accountability on Epste than we have. over here in America. But like look what. happened with Bill Gates. He got. humiliated. Some others got exposed. Uh. Obama's former White House counsel got. exposed. Like bit by bit we did learn no. there is a cabal of people who were very. connected to him and seemed like dirt.

bags who did deserve to be exposed and. with more and more pushing they were but. we were all told that's a conspiracy. theory too about Jeffrey Epson. like, okay, this is like it's just annoying. And and look, the thing on Israel, like. that's that's underlying this whole. thing. And I feel like I'm in a unique. position to speak to this because. it's like Charlie and I were completely. aligned on Israel all along and up to. the day he was killed where we were.

very, very pro-Israel, but we were. starting to have doubts because of their. behavior in Gaza and how extended and. and and egregious it was and just how. the overkill again to use that same. word. And we hadn't abandoned Israel as. supporters, but we were becoming more. critical. And we both felt a need to. make room in the GOP for Israel. skeptics, which is what young. Republicans feel. They're they're very. skeptical, not of Israel and the the. Israeli people, but of this government. and its behavior. And. Charlie was having doubts about Israel.

and was under pressure not to not to. abandon Israel as a cause and is in. writing and on the record with me on. this show and elsewhere not appreciating. appreciating being called an. anti-semite, saying he might have to. leave the Jewish cause entirely, saying. he wasn't going to submit to the the. pressure from certain Jewish donors to. not waver at all in Israel, and that he. didn't appre appreciate that at all. correspondence directly with Netanyahu.

And so, look, understandably, some people are going to say, "Did they. have a motive here?" That I think that's. a fair question. But now, when we're. getting into real live court where, as. you three know better than anyone, we. have to deal in evidence. This is not an. okay time for who who might have been on. Charlie's bad side, who might have been. threatened by Charlie, who might have. been mad at Charlie. We have to talk. about evidence at this stage. It is time.

to put up or shut up. And what we see is. no evidence. No evidence that will lead. us to believe anyone other right now. than Tyler Robinson was responsible for. this cause. But I understand the. skeptics. I do because I, as Charlie's. friend, want every leaf to to be turned. over. And I've been fine with doing that. all along. But you know, this is where. the rubber meets the road, right guys? Where it's like in lots of cases, you. have theories about who hated the.

deedent, who besides my client wanted. him dead. How could I potentially do a. head fake or like point direction, you. know, for the jury members over there. instead of at my guy? And the court. won't allow you to do that unless you. have a good faith basis to do it or. actual evidence to justify it. You can't. just do wild goose chase over here. because I've got a suspicion. That's. just not how it works. And and in our. discussions here, it's I think it's.

really important we stay fact-based. What's admissible? What what can they. admit? What is his defense team actually. arguing? They have a greater reason than. anyone podcaster or otherwise to get the. attention off of Tyler Robinson and we. haven't heard anything from that defense. team which does seem talented about it. not being Tyler. So anyway, thoughts on. it? Megan, can I put I want to put my. tinfoil hat on for a minute and I never. have a tinfoil hat, but just for.

argument sake in terms of the evidence. in this case and what will come forth. The one the chum for lack of a better. word that I think conspiracy theorists. can sink their teeth into that we know. so far are the weird text messages. Why? because they're too detailed for. somebody who wants to commit a heinous. crime and get away with it. To be. texting your your furry lover, all of. the details of the grandfather's gun and. the this and here's where I put it and. look under your keyboard and do all that.

stuff when you know damn well as a. 23year-old, you know damn well that this. information is getable. Why would you. almost give yourself up digitally if. somebody weren't putting you up to now? I don't believe that is the case, but if. I were a conspiracy theorist, I'm going. to be hanging my hat on those text. messages because there's just too much. there there. >> Also, >> so I have a dear friend who I I love. She's she's a doll and she tends to.

think more conspiratorally on some of. these issues and she she keeps me a. breast of what she's hearing and she. thinks on this and I actually really. appreciate it because it's a good window. into you know how people who are very. skeptical of of the theory that Tyler. Robinson did this are thinking and she. just texted me that these messages are. not believable and no one believes this. is why he was taken out. um at least she. goes on from there. But those messages. are a problem for people.

>> um who want to convince us it was Tyler. Robinson because they do they sound. fake. They just sound they do they sound. fake. >> They sound fake. And to Janna's point, guys, they do have it's like a. prosecution's dream. It's my rifle. This. is where I hid it. Remember when I. engraved the bullets with the following. memes? Like it's it's exactly what you'd. write if you wanted to ensure his. conviction. >> Well, and then layer over that, somebody.

else was there who gets carried off and. arrested who later confesses. layer over. that there are preexisting. chats that are memorialized in some. fashion which look to be a. conspiratorial. and you. I I would not be so sure that in jury. selection you that a stealth juror this.

is usually the defense's worst nightmare. but in this case it could be just like. in Luigi the proc prosecution's worst. nightmare. They get a juror on Yes. >> not going to buy anything that the. prosecution is selling because it just. looks too neat, too convenient, and. doesn't kind of answer all of the. questions. >> I have a theory, man. >> Let me tell you something. They the I. know I know a few people who are, you. know, like my this one friend who's very.

well off. She's very successful. um who I met years ago. She was Q anon. She was part of Q like. she believed all the theories about like. the pizza place and the Democrat like. all of it. And um like pretty much every. conspiracy theory and I never knew that. I until she had a dinner party at her. house and we all went and she kind of. started confiding in me and I remember. being shocked. I'm like she she believes. every single one of them. I know a few. people who are like this and they are.

brilliant. They are very successful. This is not like there is a very good. chance a few of these will wind up in. the jury pool and being considered for. the actual jury here. Um this is. something the prosecution absolutely has. to be paying attention to. >> Sure. You you listen, we we we think we. know people. We only know what they show. us and and even then you really never. get down to it. My theory in this case. is that these defense lawyers are doing.

their job ensuring due process by. challenging every piece of evidence by. making all the right objections. But. Megan, you're thinking, and many people. are thinking, well, so what does this. lead to? What type of successful defense. is that somehow leading to? And I don't. think that they even think that it's. going to lead to that. They're defining. winning by doing everything they can to. challenge the evidence. And then. ultimately, not not possibly, but when.

this judge says, "I'm finding probable. cause," which is 100% certainty, they. will then proceed to buy their, you. know, their their their protective knee. coverings, get down on their knees, and. beg the prosecution to consider waving. the death penalty. And that to me would. be a victory for the defense. Prosecution has no reason though to do. that in I disagree unless unless Erica. Kirk and Charlie's parents wanted them. to. >> It starts there. I haven't heard that.

they're tremendous advocates for the. death penalty. So the fact that that. door is even cracked open a little bit. means that there's a possibility. >> that the door is not cracked open. Erica. Kirk has said I don't want that on my. conscience. I don't want to be involved. in that. Okay. Like I'm I'm leaving that. >> that that means it's open, Megan. In our. business, unless if you have a victim. saying no, anything less than the death. penalty, like the Parkland, Marjorie. Stoman Douglas parents, they wanted the. death penalty for Nicholas Cruz, that.

was it. There was no discussion about. resolving it to a life sentence, which. ultimately probably would have saved. them a lot of time and energy. In this. particular case, there are more generic. reasons. I don't disagree with Janna and. those who think that the evidence is. overwhelming. they'll get the. conviction, but you've got 12 jurors, all who must unanimously find that the. aggravating circumstances are greater. than the mitigators. And death is very. different. It's very unique. It takes. one Utah juror to say, "Yeah, I think.

that what he did was abhorrent, but I. think you should live out his days in. jail, be worse for him. Let him rot in. prison. I'm not going to send him to. death row." Or whatever their reasons. are. >> And so, it's not a slam dunk. It's not a. guarantee. What is a guarantee is him. saying, "I'm guilty. I'm waving all my. appeals. I don't want to have any more. notoriety." Not that he would say that, but we're saying that to him. Good. riddens. Go away. No more expense. No. more time. No more energy. Guaranteed. life sentence. And then he'll probably.

think he's going to do it. >> I don't think he's going to I don't. think he's going to do that because his. lawyer should I think he thinks he's got. a shot. >> I think he's think he's got a shot now. And I also you if you read those text. messages, if that's really Tyler. Robinson writing, he doesn't give a. about dying. He's like, "If you read. this, I'm either dead or I'm heading to. prison for a long time." He I think he. was prepared to die that day. Go ahead, Garagos. I can see. >> things change. >> He can't The lawyers are not going to. let him do it because absent agreement. by DOJ, remember, unlike Luigi where you.

have the federal backs stop to the. state, there is no double jeopardy. If. he pleads the DOJ to a wife, the DOJ can. come in instantly and just use that and. go go for broke. And. >> they would work that out, Garagos. They. would all work that out. He wouldn't. plead unless he knew that he's getting a. pass in the fence. >> Why would this Department of Justice. agree to the pass? I I to me that's they. already. >> I They won't. Don Jr. is sitting in the.

front row of this preliminary hearing. right now with his new bride, watching. every moment. He was extremely close. with Charlie. There's zero chance. >> Imagine Imagine a scenario worse than a. 5day preliminary hearing. Imagine 5 10. years down the road after he's. convicted, after he's given the death. penalty, the appellet court reverses. based upon something that was done in. jury selection, whatever it is, and then. we come back and we do it all over. again. That's possible.

>> Who cares? >> Oh, okay. >> So, what cares? Like, remember the. outrage when Coberger was allowed to. plead and didn't get the death penalty, which he clearly deserved. That was. utter We can't be put in that. same position. Go ahead, Garagos. >> I was just going to say, remember the. reason that the feds did not get. involved and they publicly said it. It's. not like I'm talking directly to. somebody who's confiding in me. They. said Utah's got a death penalty. Unlike. New York where similar to California,

the death penalty basically does not. exist. We came in in New York because of. that. We didn't come in to Utah because. they mean it when they say they've got a. death penalty. That's the backs stop. That's the only reason they didn't take. federal jurisdiction over this. >> And Megan, a win a win for the defense. here is simply not getting a unanimous. death verdict. That is a win for the. defense. I don't think they know. They. know they don't have a prayer of an. acquitt. I don't see that happening any.

at any point. But if they have one juror. who can't sentenced to death, that is a. win. And that might be a long plea as we. like to call it. And maybe that's the. angle of this defense team at this. point. >> If I if I were the defense lawyer, I'd. be going for jury nullification. I'd be. going for hung jury. All I need is one. who thinks that Tyler Robinson was. manipulated whether it was by the CIA. and an MK Ultra, which I've seen that uh. by Israel who, you know, somehow swooped.

in and got controlled his mind or he. wasn't actually the shooter because. there was the exploding microphone, whatever. There's a lot of theories out. there that I'm the defense lawyer. I'm. 100% going for that. like I've got to. find the one jury and I'd have to have a. consultation with jury consultants like. what should I look for like raise your. hand if you think we didn't land on the. moon you know like that [laughter] I'd. be looking for jurors who are like. yeahgan you know why you know why. there's typically two different lawyers.

on a death penalty case because the one. who would have to argue the garbage that. you just talked about the most. ridiculous theories which will land him. with a conviction within an hour there'd. have to be a different cursor then to. get up there and make arguments about. why he should live instead of die. because the first lawyer. >> explain this. So Garagos made this point. yesterday and we didn't really flesh it. out. Keep keep going. Why? So. >> describe exactly the position you'd be. putting yourself in if you stood up.

there and your main defense was. basically to like head fake over to MK. Ultra, the CIA, the FBI, Israel, whatever. >> Okay. I had a death case recently. I. litigated it for five years. Death, death, death. These Florida prosecutors. wanted death. And quite frankly, the. facts probably warranted them. It was. really that bad. It wasn't until the. 11th hour ultimately when we did motions. and showed that like they're doing, they're talented lawyers, they're. fighters, whatever, that maybe that. greased the wheels and ultimately we got. what we wanted. But I couldn't have been.

the one, if we actually went to trial, to then make the arguments about how he. had a lack of prior record, how he had. mental illness, how he said, "God bless. you," to a few people and helped them. across the street. Whatever you're going. to throw out there to mitigate, I. shouldn't have been that same one. because with the same mouth that that. spewed to try to convince them. that they're innocent, I can't be the. one trying to save his life. >> Go that far. I would say you're. zealously defending in a guilt phase. And that's what the client is entitled.

to, a zealous defense. And you're. arguing they haven't proved their case. I'm giving you an alternative. explanation. I'm telling you this, I'm. telling you that. If a jury rejects. that, which they must in order to get to. the penalty phase, they basically. there's an idea. You're the voice of the. client. They've given you your their. they've already given you their verdict, so to speak, on your authenticity and. everything else. then to get up and say,

"I was just kidding. [laughter]. Let's talk about let's talk about this, that, and the other thing, and why you. should um uh it's it's an impossible. human situation, I think, to navigate.". >> Correct. >> But wait, why is it inconsistent to say, "Uh, okay, Tyler Robinson didn't do it. He didn't do it. Somebody else did it. Don't believe those tapes. We can't tell. who that is. This is There's. no hard proof. Uh, somebody could have. stolen that gun. that's his DNA is on it. because it's his gun, not not.

necessarily because he shot it. And then they say, "We disagree. He's. guilty." And then you get to the death. penalty phase and you say, "Why is it. inconsistent to say Tyler Robinson is. actually a really sweet guy? He spent, you know, 22 of his 23 years being a. good citizen, loving son, university. He. got he got manipulated, you know, by the. internet. He got you know, pulled into. assassination culture and, you know,

don't hold that against him because. look, he was a boy scout and he did all. these nice things. >> because you're credibility by that point. is out the window. You've challenged. good, decent, honorable police officers. You're trying to make X look like Y. You. know, creating reasonable doubt um could. be really challenging u especially when. things are so straightforward and you. have to convince jurors that they're. not. What you're seeing is not actually. that straightforward. someone. manufactured the words that were. allegedly sent to his boyfriend. Um, you.

know, that and then all of a sudden to. get up there with that same mouth and. then talk about actual things that he. doesn't have a prior record, that he had. some mental illness and here's the. expert that claims that he whatever. you're going to put up there to. mitigate, it's very hard to to do it. with the same voice that that that. minutes ago they were insulted by, you. know. But Megan, the the inconsistenc. I'm just kind of laughing picturing you. I GL I I've never seen you. uncomfortable. It would be kind of funny. to see you actually feeling.

uncomfortable. >> I wouldn't show it just on the inside. [laughter]. >> because of that. But I you're making. your case. I I get it. I'm getting it. Go ahead, Jonath. The inconsistency is. baked into the cake, right? Because when. you have these death penalty cases and I. I'm trying to remember I don't know if. it was Jod Aras or one of them and and. maybe even Scott Peterson Garagos where. you put up a defense because you truly. believe that your client is innocent and. then in order to save their life they. have to present the mitigating evidence. or it's not going to happen. You have to. you have to the the client sometimes.

themselves have to say, "Oh, yeah, I'm. really sorry." After you spent days or. weeks or months trying to convince a. jury that they're completely innocent in. order to live, they have to now kind of. admit their guilt. >> He is still trying to convince us that. Scott Peterson is innocent. You We can't. use that as an example. He still thinks. he's going to be home in time for. Christmas. Um, wait. I wanted to tell. you guys something is happening in court. right now that is relevant to the very. discussion that we're having. Um there.

there's a debate about whether they can. read um the testimony of. Okay, I want to make sure it's a pastor. The prosecution wanted to read the. testimony of pastor David Angelhart. about Christian belief. The this is via. the federalist and its correspondent in. in court Breen the uh from Englehart. about Christian belief the beliefs and.

goals of Turning Point USA and the. religious and political beliefs of. Charlie Kirk. The defense objected. Uh. this is another defense lawyer named. Novak who says the state is using this. testimony in a way to get the quote. victim targeting enhancement. to lay the groundwork for Robinson's. reasons for targeting Kirk specifically. Novak argues that political expression. is outside the statutory relevance. needed which is separate and distinct. from a personal attribute. Do you do you.

understand what he's saying? Does. anybody know what that means? for the. special I assume for the special circ. and he's saying the special circumstance. that's attached to the murder which. makes him death penalty eligible and. he's arguing that. >> and. >> you can't use. >> like a personal attribute would be he's. gay and he got targeted for being gay or. he's black and he got targeted for being. black as opposed to he was a Christian. who was religious. I think that's okay. I get it. I think that's what what the. argument is over. And then here's the. quote from defense attorney Novak. I.

understand in today's world that there. is a crossover between religion and. politics. I think we can all acknowledge. that. But the legislature and the. information here are focused on. political expression. So I'm concerned. that this affidavit statement of Mr. Engelhart goes far beyond the scope of. what would be admissible if the state. has it to prove that Mr. Robinson. targeted Mr. Kirk because of Mr. Robinson's belief or perception. concerning Mr. Kirk's political. expression. This is not a case about.

religion, Novak said. Novak said the. evidence the state needs to provide is. not what Kirk believed, but rather what. was in Mr. Robinson's head. So he did. not want the um affidavit to come in and. it looks like uh he has succeeded in. that because the update was judge graph. for now has sustained Novak's objection. meaning the state prosecutor cannot read. directly from Angelhart's testimony.

Quote quote quoting from it in open. court I fear does risk issues to the. constitutional rights of the parties. said the judge. They're talking about. closing the court down so that. prosecutor McBride can refer directly to. this testimony. The state does not want. to do so. McBride says he believes the. defense is trying to shut down the. openness of the proceedings so that the. public cannot hear it. News media. attorney, because we also have our own. lawyer in there arguing for our rights. Uh Raymond is arguing that just because. an exhibit could be inadmissible does. not mean the public cannot see it. My.

god, there's so many layers to this. This is crazy. But this is all about the. death penalty, right? This is all about. >> correct. >> whether this I admire this evidence that. would make it a death penalty like this. admissible. I like this judge. Putting. aside whether I'm okay with the ruling. because I don't have all the facts. surrounding it. I love that he's calling. balls and strikes and not just appearing. to be a judge who's ready to do that, pretending to do that and then just. ruling in favor of the prosecution for. everything. He really does seem to want. to hear from both sides and he does seem.

like he cares about the rule of law and. I admire him. Not everything should come. in. >> Well, I have to say it's been it's it's. been actually very telling because. usually this Netor objects to everything. the woman that's her job. >> and No, it's annoying though. If if she. does this in front of a jury, they're. going to hate her because juries don't. like a non I realize she's got a life to. save and delay works in her favor. The. every day is another day he's alive. But. I know, but like I'm I'm a jury and I.

hate her. Um I'm just saying like she's. alienating a lot. >> Hey, you ain't making it on, babe. [laughter]. >> No, I'm definitely not making on this. one. >> Um she But then he says the judge says, "Okay, I'll hear argument." You know, she make and she's like, "Uh, stand on. my objection." She has no argument. It's. like the prosecution is like, "Great. Let's argue it. I'll I'm happy to. argue.". >> She's doing her job, >> Megan. She's doing her job. So that not. if but when he possibly gets death. They're going to go back and say did he.

have effective assistance of counsel and. yeah she's making all the possible legal. objections and then this is all good. >> Wouldn't her job be to like give him. give him that defense by not doing not. crossing every tea or dotting every eye. like no. >> surreptitiously blowing things so he. could argue I. >> basically. >> what is it IA? Go ahead Garagos. >> Yeah but no it's not it's not our job to. purposely take a dive. No. [snorts]. >> Right. We just got to make sure. >> I think she'll get lucky like like Alec. Murdoch and they'll have a court clerk. who will unduly influence the jury and.

>> Yeah, that's a good strategy. Count on. that. >> Go ahead, J. [laughter]. We you know, let's hope that the angle. here isn't to get rid of the the thing. that makes this an aggravated murder. because without that there is no death. penalty and then the defense will have. one at the end of this what is going to. be a lengthy prelim. So hopefully the. prosecution has more than one ground for. its aggravation in the way that it. charged this case. It's. >> Yeah. >> Hey, were there kids in attendance? How. old were they? Okay, there you go. And.

that one. >> Yeah. Well, that's I mean he killed them. across a crowd. That should be one. So. there should be other choices for the. prosecution here. >> Yeah. besides whatever Christian. affiliation or your one's political. beliefs, which clearly is the motivation. if you know Tyler did this, that's he's. it's in writing. But yeah, they have on. the witness list um I think a picture of. a mother with a baby in a baby stroller. >> So, they clearly are going to try to.

argue that, you know, children were. present at the time that this disgusting. event happened. Uh so, we won't be. surprised if we see that. So, all right. In some, we think the prosecution is. getting it done. They could have gotten. it done in two hours. Everything beyond. that is probably an attempt to. manipulate the public narrative, which. Igar thinks is unacceptable. I think. it's unpoisoning the poisoned well, just. to try to get us back to neutral. In the. same way the prosecutor felt he had to. come out to say, "Wait a minute. The.

Daily Mail report about the bullet not. matching is not correct. It couldn't. conclusively be matched, but it wasn't. not matched either. We just couldn't. tell. It was blown to such smitherines. that we weren't able to say one way or. another. I think he's trying to do that. in his presentation here, too. Unpoison. the poisoned well as opposed to poison. it or put his finger on the scale for. himself. So, that's where it stands. Over wait, wait. Megan hates the defense. lawyer. You didn't include that in the.

summation. We We covered that. Um Megan. thinks that if she. >> I do. She's very annoying, >> right? And if she objects like that in. front of jury, she'll turn them all off. Got that? Right. >> And she says um every two seconds. She's. not articulate. She's not I mean, I'm. just not impressed with her. I don't. like unimpressive. >> All right. Just add that to the to the. summation of what we've discussed. >> Yeah. And she blew it on that on that. What's her the woman who poisoned her. husband? The fentanyl poisoner. >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, represented her. >> Cory Richens. >> Corey Richens. Yeah. She blew that one.

That was probably. >> I don't know if that was winnable, but I. think Garagos could have walked out with. a with an acquitt on that one, [laughter] but she she couldn't. >> Her defense, she's doing a more than. workmanlike job. Number one. Number two, >> it's also uh it's incredibly stressful. for a lawyer to be on camera performing. even though. >> correct. >> get into it, but that adds another layer. to it. So, >> not for us. Megan, did I ever tell you. one time I had a a judge chastise me for.

objecting too much? She actually told me. to stop objecting. [laughter]. >> I didn't listen, but. >> I don't blame her. >> Yeah, I must have annoyed her, too. >> Yeah, I don't I don't blame her. It's. [laughter] like at that point, you just. have to have like blanket blank. I get. it. You object to literally every. question. Your rights are preserved for. appeal. Sit down and be quiet and let. the thing go forward. At one point, this. judge is going to have to do that to. Netor because this cannot keep going. like this. I I realize, you know, delay. is in her favor, but it's gotten to the.

point of like you want to you want to. give her a little a little backhand. Um, okay. I got to go, you guys. Thank you. all so much for your commentary. Everybody, be sure to check out MK True. Crime and subscribe to In the Well with. Garagos and Matt Murphy and Positively. Legal, uh, as well as our MK True Crime. show, which is sort of the name brand. there. Anyway, lots of true crime. offerings and they've been all over this. case um this week and will continue to. be as well. Uh I gotta say.

it's been it's been kind of crazy to. watch Erica have to sit through this and. have to deal with all of this. And I. really really wish that the people who. have doubts about Erica Kirk would just. keep them quiet this week. I mean, whether you like her or you don't like. her, hopefully the human inside of you. can see how difficult this is for her. and the family to sit in there and have. to listen to this and have to be feet.

away from Tyler Robinson and then soon. the videotape of the lover and. they're removing themselves for the most. graphic pieces of the testimony. But. they're hearing enough. This is going to. be intensely upsetting. And every night, Erica goes home to Charlie's two. children who have no father and still. has to struggle with helping them. understand what happened to him. It's. just beyond human what is being asked of.

the family. And I've just I beg for you. to keep them in your prayers. Infuse. them with strength, with some sort of. serenity to get through this, with the. ability. to keep this in perspective. You know, as Erica said from the beginning, that. the real judgment is going to come from. God, not from this judge, not from the. eventual jury. And that's really what. Tyler Robinson should be thinking about. each night. That's what should disturb. his sleep night after night, answering.

to his maker. Um, you know, his lawyer. may be able to spare him some penalty. here, or possibly in his best case. scenario, even a finding of guilt, though I doubt it. But Tyler Robinson and anybody else who. was connected with this crime are going. to have to answer to their maker. eventually. And that from that they. cannot be spared. None of us can. Anyway, been thinking a lot about. Charlie this week as I know you have. It's very hard to talk about this case. forensically without remembering it's.

Charlie. Talking about Charlie. You guys. know that better than anybody. the the. listeners to this show, the the viewers. of this show saw more of Charlie than. virtually any other audience did besides. his own. All these people out there talking about. Charlie, you you saw him regularly. You. listen to him regularly if you watch and. listen to this show. And you knew a lot. about Charlie Kirk, his character, his.

personality, what mattered to him. And. I'm sure you're feeling it, too. I'm. sure you're feeling an intimate. connection to this case because you do. feel that connection to him. This is. like, you know, the guests who come on. this show are like family. They're. family, like family to me. And I'm sure. you feel that as well. So, keep his. family in your mind and in your prayers. And thank you for that. And thank you. for trusting us with the coverage of it. as well. We will continue to stream the. entire preliminary hearing on our. YouTube channel. That's. youtube.com/megan Kelly. And we will be.

back tomorrow with more legal analysis. and other news. We'll see you [music]. then.