Lindsay Clancy "Postpartum Psychosis" Defense, Perez Hilton Legal Questions, w/ MK True Crime Hosts

Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome. to the Megyn Kelly's show. Kelly Score. is back in session with several cases. making headlines right now. A major. revelation in the mysterious death of. 18-year-old Nolan Wells in Mississippi. An attorney representing three of. Nolan's friends says that two credible. people he called quote reliable and. credible reported seeing Nolan on the. island at 6:00 p.m. Now keep in mind that the. the people who are just hurling.

accusations around at poor Nolan's. friends who appear to have loved and. cared about him and went out to this. island with him on a boat on July 4th in. Mississippi uh are claiming that they. may have killed Nolan at some point. around 3:30 to 4:30. They were supposed to take him back on. their boat and they allegedly killed him. on the boat because there's some. voicemail in which it sounds like. somebody says something about the word.

dead. It's completely unsupported. It is. literally made up by some activist who. claimed she heard a a distress call from. the boat and heard those admissions. We. all heard the distress call and did not. hear those admissions and the person who. claims to have verbated that distress. call was calling these kids murderers. before she ever went through her. process. So these kids are on the wrong end of an. angry online mob. And now we're getting.

more and more actual evidence in like. two adult reportedly reliable and. credible witnesses who say Nolan was. still on Horn Island for hours after the. boys who have been villainized left. That they they saw him at 6:00 p.m. And. I can tell you from my own independent. reporting, I have been told the same. So this is going to be in the hands of.

investigators. and we'll see what the crazed online. lunatics do with this. I mean, who. really cares? Like as you know, it's. really not my business to get into. conspiracy theories online. My business. is to tell you what the facts show. and let you know what's true without. having to or trying to debunk every. you know, tinfoil hat theory that comes. up on any case. on this show. It's just not what we're. going to do. We're going to stick with. actual lawyers, professionals, and. evidence.

And the evidence right now is looking. very much like Nolan stayed behind just. as his friends said. and that he was alive and walking around. Horn Island as late as 6:00 p.m. July. 4th. Uh Ben Crump's team is the one that has. been ginning up a lot of the hate for. Nolan's friends without any support. Uh. now there's a report that they have not. handed over Nolan Wells's cell phone to. investigators. That Nolan's mother has. it. Um. perhaps Crump's team is in possession of.

it, I don't know. They're working. together. She hired the wrong person. And um they're dodging our calls for him. to weigh in on whether the reporting is. true or not. Do you have the phone? Or don't you? Very simple question. Um let us know. So, there is a lot going on in the news. today um. on this case and many others. There's. stuff about Dr. Anthony Fauci in the. news. I mean, there's this like. disturbing report about him. and some people want him now tried. We'll get to that if we have time today.

Um but there's a lot to go over with our. Kelly's Court panel beginning with the. trial. of Lindsay Clancy. And this is the case. on which we are likely to spend the most. time today. Have you heard about this case? This has sparked some. insane conspiracy theories online. But. again, it's not about. those. It's about this mother. who killed her three children. She admits it. It's so disturbing. I've been trying to. avoid the case to be honest with you cuz. it's just like. oh my god, you know, I have three.

children and I'm sure a lot of you moms. out there don't really want to spend a. ton of time with a woman who. we know did this. But. the testimony's been very compelling and. now we're getting down to it. So we. decided to take it on responsibly here. today. Her lawyers. are not arguing that she's innocent. They're arguing that she should not be. held criminally responsible because they. say she was suffering from postpartum. psychosis. The prosecution says no, that's a dodge. And that there's they argue that there's.

not evidence for actual psycho-. psychosis. Depression, sure. But they dispute. that there was evidence of this. postpartum psychosis. And they call the murders deliberate and. calculated and we are going to get into. what the testimony has been as this. trial proceeds. Joining me now Matt. Murphy and Mark Geragos. They are the. hosts of In the Well and Dave Aronberg, too. He's host of the MK True Crime. Show. All of these shows can be found on. the MK True Crime YouTube channel and. all podcast platforms. Just search in MK.

True Crime wherever you get your podcast. >> [music]. >> and subscribe and you will get all of. their shows. Uh check it out. Don't miss a moment. Subscribe to this. show on YouTube and follow me on Insta, Facebook, and X. When you sign your. insurance policy for some brokers, that's the finish line. Bye. You may not. hear from them again until it's time for. renewal. But your business runs all year. and so do the gaps in the risk, which is. why I want to tell you about Super Sure. If your company has more than 25. employees, whether you're the owner,

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supersure.com/megan. One super agency, one powerful platform, all your policies in one place. Go to. supersure.com/megan. Paid for by. supersure Insurance Agency LLC, a. licensed insurance agency. Guys, welcome. Great to see you all. So, this is this case is. >> [music]. >> just dark. It's dark, but it's. fascinating. Let's be honest. I mean, the the Tik Tok of the husband going. home and finding out what happened to.

his family is just chilling. And what. you have now, that after this husband, Patrick, goes home, he's spent the day. with his wife, Lindsey. He's been talking to her. They've been. texting. He's seen his children, who are. all in the young single digits. And he knows that she's been depressed. He knows that she's been impatient for 5. days in the not too distant past. But. she seems, he says, to be having a good. day. In fact, he describes this as one. of her best days in recent weeks. He does not seem to have any indication.

that his wife is thinking about killing. their three children this evening. She. sends him out to the store to go get. some sort of um like a colonic or diet. diarrhea, whatever. I had some sort of. uh laxative for their uh 6-year-old. He goes to the CVS. He can't find it. He calls in. She. redirects him. Then he goes by a. restaurant. at the wife's instruction, too. They. They had called in a a meal for the two.

adults. Picks it up and comes home. He. finds his wife, what he thinks is dying, and probably. she would have been dead had he not. found her, on the front lawn having. jumped. And with some sort of. red marks on her neck and her wrists, though later they were described as. superficial. And she tells him, "I tried to kill. myself.". He stays with her. He thinks this is the. emergency. Stays with her 4 or 5. minutes. He calls 911. And then he says, "Where are the.

children?" She says, "In the basement.". So, he knew that while he was waiting. with her for the 4 minutes. And when the. paramedics arrive, he goes to the basement to check on his. children, still not realizing that. they've been killed. And then in a 911 call that they played. in the courtroom, but they did not. release for obvious reasons, too. too dark, too distressing. Um you can hear his exchange with the. 911 operator, where um. he calls out that his children have been.

killed, too. And that she's apparently taken some. sort of exercise bands. and used them to strangle his. children. Um I'm just just looking for. it here. Here it is. This is via a um. reporter for the Patriot-Ledger. newspaper. in Massachusetts who was there. His name. is Peter Blandino. He reports that the. the call goes as follows, "My wife tried. to commit suicide. Stay awake," he says. to Lindsey on the tape. "She jumped out. of the window," he tells the operator. "She's breathing. Where are the kids?".

He can be heard saying on the recording. "It's not really bleeding. It's just an. open wound," Patrick says about his wife. describing the cuts on Lindsey's wrist. and neck. "Is there something on the on your neck, Lindsey?" he asks. Lindsey can be heard. in the background, but not distinctly. "Say my name," Patrick instructs her as. the dispatcher tells him not to move. her. Sirens are then heard approaching. "I need you to stay with her. I have to. go check on my kids," he says as the. paramedics arrive. His footsteps through the through the. house can be heard.

"Oh, no," he screams followed by. desperate shrieks. "What are you screaming about now?" the. dispatcher asks. "Oh my god," Patrick. shouts, now crying, "The basement, I. need help." Patrick's screams are. heart-rending, reports Peter Blandino of. the Patriot Ledger. "She killed the kids. Oh my god." Primal. cries and screams follow and heavy. breathing. "Oh shit." says the. dispatcher. It's so dark and.

just replete with despair. But the question in this case, Matt. Murphy, is what is the level of. culpability for this clearly disturbed. quote-unquote mother? You know, there's. no question that she's not going to be. turned out onto the street to walk free. and reproduce again. The question is. basically what kind of facility she's. going to get locked up in, a jail or a. mental health one. If it's the latter, she has at least the chance of getting. out. And it all seems to come down to.

whether the jury will buy. that she was suffering from psychosis, this mental illness that can affect a. very small percentage of moms after they. give birth, or not. >> Right. Well, I know Dave and Mark and I. have all sort of been nerding out on. this one, Megan, because in the mental. health world of homicide, this is a very. interesting case. Postpartum depression. is relatively common and it's a real. thing and so is postpartum psychosis,

but it's a lot more rare. And you'll. notice, I think a lot of people probably. heard the term psychosis attached to. postpartum for the first time. That is because fortunately it's rare, but essentially you need a break from. reality. Um and depression, even severe. depression, a person can still suffer. from that. They can be mentally ill. This is the prosecution's point. You can. still suffer from all of those things. You can be depressed and still be.

legally responsible for your actions. Psychosis means she has a break from. reality and essentially doesn't know. what she's doing. Massachusetts uses. what's known as a modified. McNaughton rule where the person must. substantially appreciate Mark and I were. talking about this the other day, whatever that means, the the wrongfulness of their actions. It it's a it's a lower standard, I. think, for the defense, although the the. prosecution bears the burden throughout. Um I think also another thing, Megan, is.

you've got her in a wheelchair, which is. going to be um there there's going to be. >> From her jump. [clears throat]. >> Yeah, from the jump. She's And. apparently that's real. She is she's. going to be paralyzed for the rest of. her life. I think also interestingly on. this, Megan, she is very well defended. by this defense lawyer. I've been I've. been impressed. by by his presentation. And then the. biggest question is um. >> Kevin Redington. >> Yeah, she might go to jail or she might. go to a mental health facility. But the.

question is how long she would be in a. mental health facility. It looks like. she's going to be in a wheelchair. forever. So there's just a a real. confluence of very interesting. issues, how much medication she was on, Prozac, what what that, you know, the. impact that had, whether there's. negligence here. The online conspiracies. are again loony. Uh they don't make any sense, but it. it's it's like wildfire right now. So. this is a very, very interesting case. >> Want to play this video for the audience.

a little bit from the prosecution and. the defense so they get a feel for the. players here. This is the prosecution's. opening statement. >> This was not a woman in the throes of. psychosis on January 24th, 2023. This was a woman who acted. intentionally, rationally, and swiftly to accomplish a very. specific goal, to kill. You'll see and hear evidence about all. the things that she did that day, what she did in the days leading up to. this incident.

leading to the murders. You'll hear her spending time with her. family and friends. You'll hear her. appearing to be in good spirits and. doing better for all intensive purposes. On that very day, you'll hear she. interacted with people at the doctor's. office. She came home and took care of the kids. She talked to people on the phone and. >> Yes. >> via text message. >> [clears throat]. >> The evidence will show you she was not. psychotic that day.

>> And Kevin Reddington, the defense. lawyer. >> She had no motive. She loves her children. She intended to kill herself. She didn't fake that. Threw herself out the window. Goes to the hospital, you're going to. see that when she's in the hospital, they said to her, "Do you want to What do you call it? A. DNR? Do not resuscitate?" Well, they. [clears throat] were absolutely. did not want any DNR. Didn't want to be. resuscitated. Wanted to die. To this day wants to die.

That's. what we're dealing with on this. prosecution. So, you're going to hear from witnesses. It's going to be emotional. And um. Thank you for your service. >> I mean, man, Mark Geragos, this is a. tough one because the jury's going to. hate her.

And yet, I think we all have a natural. assumption. that a mother does love her children. And that for a mother to do this, she. would have to be out of her mind. >> Well, I you Let me push back a little. bit. I don't think this jury is going to. hate her, and I will tell you why. For. the very reason that there are all of. these crazy conspiracy theories running. around the internet blaming the father.

Um, he got on the stand. He is the only I mean, he is the ground. zero, if you will, of victim in this. case. And he's he's lost his wife for. all intents and purposes. I know he's. been remarried. I can. to hear William that's a separate. discussion. He's lost his kids. They. didn't play the 911 tape. So all of. these Looney Tunes on the internet who. only have access to what you just read.

And I was. >> They played it in court. They just. didn't release it publicly. >> that's And there's nobody in court who's. going to be blaming him. It's only. people who didn't listen to what you. read. Cuz even when you read it, it was. compelling. It made me nauseous just. listening to that to imagine what he. must have gone through having to. discover his wife who he was married to, loved, and who was his baby mama, and. who is there in the throes of mental.

illness. The people who don't understand. this, the people who are out there who. are And only a prosecutor, and I say. this with great. love for Matt and um. and. as my in the well partner, only a. prosecutor, government prosecutor, could. get up there and make that idiotic. opening statement argument that it was. intentional, it was rational, and look. at what she did earlier in the day. I. mean, if I were Kevin Redington, I would.

lose my mind. Um, this jury is not going to hate her. They're going to just say she's. paralyzed. She's never moving again. She's never getting out. If we they know. enough on that jury to know that if they. find that she was that accurately that. she was mentally out of it under the as. Matt and I discussed Dave I haven't. talked to you about it but I'm sure you. you have the same reaction. This the.

standard is absolutely like a Rubik's. Cube of the psychological standard there. but that jury is going to use it in a. way that they are going to absolve her. of a criminal in my opinion of criminal. action here and they're going to find. this for what it is which is a mother. who would had. to Redington's point no motive. There. was no there there was nothing here. It. wasn't like there's the prosecutions. arguing she was having a torrid affair.

and wanted to be. get rid of the kids or anything else. This is a woman who was on medication. potentially and I think you'll you'll. find that was failed and it has been. proven so far we're not even through the. defense case that the mental health. system failed her which is a story often. >> That I agree. >> told a story often told and Kevin. Redington is doing what defense lawyers. do best and it's refreshing for once to. have defense lawyers not be demonized in.

watching a trial like this. Ironically. the same within days of two defense. lawyers now one is the Attorney General. of the United States and the other was. the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals. Justice who swore him in in the Oval. Office yesterday. This is a defense. lawyer bonanza this week. >> You're not wrong about the. medical care. It's just now come out. that the the woman who Dr. Tuffs who was.

principally responsible for treating the. defendant here Lindsay Clancy. that Dr. Jennifer Tuffs has. you know, an absence of expertise or at least. experience behind her. And she had only. completed her 4-year residency at Boston. Medical School in 2022. These crimes occurred in January of. 2023. She started working as a practicing.

psychiatrist um and got her individual. DEA license to prescribe medications in. August of 2022. Again, that these children would be. killed in January of 2023. It was only 1. month later in September, on the 15th to. be exact, that she had her first. appointment with Lindsay Clancy. She. admitted that she never worked with a. patient suffering from postpartum. psychosis. Uh the defense attorney. Redington noted that she advertised. herself as a specialist in postpartum.

mental health. He suggested that she had. misrepresented her experience when she. only had a month under her belt. Dr. Tufts conceded that the different. medical providers did not communicate. with each other, and at no point did she. ask Lindsay Clancy to sign a release. form so that she could access Lindsay's. medical records and speak to her other. doctors to get the full picture of just. how sick this woman was. If you look at. the list of, you know, medicines that. they had this Lindsay Clancy on, I mean,

we'll be here all day. It's just uh just. It's incredible. The number of things. she was on. Just just a couple of. to to name just a couple, and I won't. list the names because there's they're. too. complicated foreign sounding, but. antidepressant, one for anxiety, one to. treat seizures and panic disorder, Valium, which is to treat anxiety and. seizures and muscle spasms or. other things, Prozac, um another one to. treat uh allergic reactions and anxiety, another one anti-epileptic. and mood stabilizer, one to treat.

bipolar disorder, one to treat anxiety, one to treat depression, one to treat. bipolar disorder, and Zoloft, which is. an SSRI, um. another one, which is an SSRI, a. sedative to address I mean, it's. incredible the number of medicines that. had been prescribed for her. Here is the. husband, Patrick Clancy, on the stand. with a little bit of something for both. sides here. Uh sought five. >> Did she also tell you at that time, at.

the beginning of December, that she was. having um some other intrusive thoughts? >> Yeah. She described thoughts of. of. hurting the kids or. um. or having or them having some sort of. ailment. >> And did she tell you um. whether or not she had specific thoughts. of how she would harm the kids? >> No. >> And she didn't describe that as hearing. this external voice telling her to harm. the kids, correct?

>> Correct. >> She told you she was having intrusive. thoughts. herself of having of harming the. children, correct? >> Uh correct. And she described it as. really the the way she was describing it. as. um. something that might happen to the kids. >> So, it was more something might happen. than she might do something, is that. correct? >> Yeah. >> How many times did she tell you this, that she had thoughts of harming the. kids? >> A couple times. I think I asked her at.

some point, you know, do you feel like. you need to be kept away from them? And. she said, "No.". And then, you know, it was very. confusing because a minute later she was. making them lunch, she was playing with. them, or you know, getting them ready. for bed or whatever it was. So, >> Mhm. Dave Aronberg, how do you see it? >> Well, it's important for the defense, Megan, to show that it's not well, it is. typical in cases of postpartum psychosis. that people will act normally sometimes.

They'll go out and make lunch, they'll. be normal. They can hide that. And so, when you send someone out to do errands, it's not necessarily premeditation. It's. just that you can be normal. And that's. what the defense is saying. And also, although I do think that Dr. Toups, I. thought her testimony, and she came. across pretty well, but she looks really. young. And she has inexperience. And I. do think that helps the defense overall. because she was heavily medicated. She. clearly had mental illness. And I find. myself agreeing with Mark Geragos, which. is rare because normally you know, I'm.

I'm a. former prosecutor. I take the. prosecution side. And I know the. district attorney Megan in this case, his name is Tim Cruz, great guy. He was. involved in the National District. Attorney Association. But I think that his office overcharged. here. I I don't think you can get a. first-degree murder conviction. I think. you lose credibility with the jury to. try to get that. I think of anything, it's a lesser charge, maybe a. manslaughter, if you're lucky to get it. One thing I did notice is that you. notice how the defense lawyer has a. thick Massachusetts accent, but the.

prosecutor doesn't, which is interesting. because Tim Cruz, the head prosecutor, has that thick accent, but he chose a. prosecutor who has no accent. And so, there's a little bit maybe of. hometowning here, where the jury may. feel more sympathy, not only for the. woman in front of them in the. wheelchair. And I do think Mark is right. that she will be sympathized with rather. than hated, but also with the defense. lawyer who sounds more like them. >> Who are these soft people, Matt Murphy? I I don't I don't look at her and feel.

sorry for her. I realize she had a. mental health crisis going on. Three. kids are dead. She took an exercise band. around the throats of a a 1-year-old, a. 4-year-old, and a 6-year-old, and. strangled them to death. And at least. the 4- and 6-year-old would have known. their mother was killing them. Really. having a tough time ginning up sympathy. Is it just me? >> Well, no. It's not It's not just you. It's one of the It's one of the things. about the case, Megan, is that it's so. um overwrought with emotion. And. remember, strangulation, it's not like.

TV where it takes 20 seconds and. somebody dies. For kids, it's going to. take three or four minutes of constant. pressure. Maybe even longer. The average adult, most pathologists will say it takes five. to seven minutes. So, it's an incredibly. long period of time to do it. But look, going back to what what Dave. was just saying, um. you know, if we look at that, and this is getting. me getting a little wonky here, my old. as a teacher for trial ad,

the you notice the defense lawyer was. making eye contact with the jury. He's. speaking in very low tones. And then the. prosecutor really. was at that lectern, hands on it. And then I don't know why. she would say this was a rational. decision. That's not an element in the. law. And I don't know why you'd over. promise that cuz clearly this is. irrational. And I don't know. I. I'm I'm I'm with you, Megan. This is an. absolutely horrific thing. It seems like. it was a train.

that looked. like it was. inexorably going down the track with the. previous mental health commitment and. everything else. And it just seems like. somebody should have stepped in and. stopped it, especially when she's. talking about the intrusive thoughts. I. think that's why so much of the blame. has been thrown at the husband here. But. this is not looking good for the. prosecution in my view. This defense. lawyer's done everything he needs to do. I think that wheelchair does come into. play. And and Megan, I think people. really will They will have sympathy for. her in that wheelchair. He's moved on.

He's married. And you know, the jury. isn't supposed to consider anything like. that. >> because she jumped out of a window after. she murdered her children. I mean, like. >> Right. >> It's a wheelchair. It's not like. somebody shot her or. >> It it. >> Okay, great. It's a wheelchair. I mean, I I bet any one of those kids would give. anything to be in a wheelchair now, alive and able to have a future. I I. realize this is this is not a well. person. I'm not trying to argue that. this was a person of sound mind when she. murdered her children, but the legal. standard seems to be was she suffering.

from postpartum psychosis where somebody. in her head was telling her to do this. or was she just extremely depressed and. decided to end it all and bring the. children with her, right? I mean, that. seems to be what they're arguing over. inside this courtroom, Matt. >> Yep. Now, and look, I if I think the. prosecution should be leaning into. uh the the mental health problems. I. think that they should be saying, "Yep, she's absolutely crazy. She's loony. She's not playing with a full deck." All. that is true, but she still understood. the nature and quality of her acts, and.

that's reflected in her journal and the. fact that look, I think a huge fact that. nobody's really talking about is the. fact that he's he's talking to her for 4. minutes. She's conscious um and she. doesn't tell him that the kids have. bands wrapped [snorts] around their. necks. >> Right. >> downstairs. Like that you could almost. from that as a good prosecutor would be. leaning into that. I haven't seen them. do that yet. And um look, I I I don't. want to be too harsh here. Um I don't want to I I hate it being. criticized, but. I have not been over impressed with what.

I've seen from the prosecution on this. I'm I'm with Dave and Mark on on that. Um and look, it. >> It is it's always bad to hide behind the. lectern to like separate yourself from. the jury, not expose yourself fully, your body, your body motions, like try. to connect with them. >> Drives me nuts. >> And you're right about the accent. >> It drives me nuts. >> kinds of things can matter, you know, that. >> where they don't feel connected to you. >> Right. >> Um let's go back to inside the courtroom. and hear the husband describing uh the. moment when he found the children sought. for.

>> And when you went left, what did you. see? >> I saw Cora. >> And how did she look? >> She had a band around her neck. >> And was that an exercise band? >> Yeah. >> And um. do you recall whether she was um. what position she was in, whether face. up or face down? >> She's face down. >> And um. when you saw her in that condition, what. did you do? >> I immediately ran over and tried to take.

the band off. >> What did you see or do next? >> I saw Callan. >> And where was he? >> He was next to her. >> And um. how did he appear? >> Callan's the baby. >> He had a band around his neck. >> Sorry? >> He had a band around his neck. >> And did you remove that as well? >> Yeah. >> And do you recall um what position he. was in? >> Same as Cora. >> After you removed the band um from. Callan's neck, what did you do next? >> I tried to find Dawson. I went to the other side of the basement.

and he was in my office. >> And when you saw Dawson, um what. condition was he in? >> Um I I knew he was gone. >> And did he also have a band around his. neck? >> Yeah. >> Okay. I mean, it's just very hard to. hear and you know, the jury's. going to recoil at the facts of this. case, but the defense is. chipping away at.

this woman was suffering and they have. among other things her journal. and here is a bit of the defense reading. selective parts of that. Sot 7. >> I now have horrible insomnia and anxiety. which is causing depression. I have no. appetite. I don't know what's wrong with. me. I want help. I want to be well. Separate occasion, he's still a very happy baby despite his. sleep training way. I feel guilty. He's. not really hitting his milestones, not. rolling over, although he almost is,

{exclamation point}. And he's babbling, which is a new milestone. She wrote, "I. have crazy brain fog. I feel like I. can't make a plan. I can't carry it out. Like I just live moment to moment, waiting for the next nap time. I'm. terrified of Cal getting overtired now. because I feel I can't help him. She. then wrote, "I'm really worried about. going back to work and not being able to. function with the brain fog. I feel like. I should start with a 4-hour shift and. see how I do. I can't tell if I am. withdrawing from Ativan and Benadryl or.

is this my new baseline? I feel. completely disconnected with my baby. I. feel like I'm going through the motions. every day. A big thing is I feel. disconnected with myself, time, reality.". >> Just going to show you one more and then. go back to you, Garagos. This is slot 11. where Kevin Reddington, the defense. lawyer who you like, is cross-examining. this very young Dr. Tufts. >> Do you want to say that fifth in fact. it's determined that you have advised as.

an expert in post-partum. and in post-partum psychiatry and you. have a month experience plus a. residency. Would you consider that to be negligent. for a misrepresentation? >> I do not believe that. I think the. wording. >> Do you understand what a. misrepresentation is? >> Yes. >> With a month having a adult. post-residency, you don't want to say to. me that you. were an expert and you have to say that. >> I I don't think that's exactly the.

wording that I used and what I said that. it was an interest of mine. >> Do you Do you want to say that again, sir? >> No. >> Good. >> I don't I think you think. the wording was that it's an interest of. mine. I don't believe I called myself an. expert. >> I will ask for it in post-partum. >> I. I maybe I I don't know. I think it. depends on what you define an expert as. >> Okay, so Mark, what I see is a smart.

strategy of instead of serving them up. Lindsay Clancy, serving them up a. negligent medical professional or two. who actually did or should have had the. expertise to diagnose this woman and and. sound the alarm and failed to. And to. your point, it doesn't hurt that this. particular doctor looks about 12 years. old. I mean, she she looks like we could. all be babysitting her. >> Not only does she look like she's 12.

years old. You didn't haven't played. at least so far my favorite part of his. cross-examination, which was her trying to get around the. fact that there was an invisible NOT on. her notes. And he has so much fun with. her on that. And you have hit on, as usual, the. effective strategy here. And the. strategy is when you have a prosecution, to Dave's point, that is so grossly over.

the top. And I know I don't want to. insult Matt's good friend here. Friend. of Matt's is a friend of mine. But the. DA in this case, you know, there I had a judge once ask a. DA that I was trying a case against, "Did they put you on this case cuz they. wanted to lose it?" And I almost had. this feeling here. I think the DA. >> Bad sign. >> Yeah, I think the DA put the woman on. this case so they could lose it cuz he. didn't want to he didn't want to just. dismiss it. My dad, when he was a. prosecutor, used to say, "Sometimes it's. easier to just try and lose the case.

than to to plead it out." And I think. that's what's going on here. Cuz this is. the most ridiculous prosecution of a. woman. I Look, I agree with you, Megan. And I was trying to say, "If you were on. this jury or in the panel, I would have. said the defense thanks and excuses, Megan Kelly." What you have to. understand. this case resonates. I'm surrounded by. mothers everywhere. My daughter, my in. my office. Anywhere I go, I've got. nothing but mothers of two or three.

kids. They are they are obsessed with. this case. As is our non-mothers, but. and part of it is that they are torn by. what the prosecution is doing here. When. they When the prosecutor starts talking. about 5 years ago, "Didn't you say I. can't handle this or I could kill this. kid?" or something like that. What. mother hasn't at one time been at wit's. end about their kids? I mean, or father. for that matter, but mothers especially.

And now you're going to. >> Not like this. >> retrospect. Well, I agree not like this, but this woman is mentally ill. This. woman was in the throes of psychosis. There is no rational The idea of. characterizing this to Matt's point as. rational or saying that it's rational is. so absurd that you lose all credibility. Then you put on this so-called expert, and you've got the greatest Circle back. the greatest theme as the defense. The.

mental health system failed her. You. want to prosecute somebody, prosecute. the mental health system because it. certainly did not They had every. opportunity in the world to save these. babies, and they didn't. >> Can I tell you something that One time. Abby and I were on a plane, and we were. heading out west together, and it was. one of those small little jets, and it. was just she and I as the passengers, and they It was a terrible landing. It. was an aborted landing, and then they. had to come around again. We were. already concerned because we had seen.

our pilot, and she looked just like this. doctor. I mean, truly, she looked about. like 17 years old, and she had a. ponytail on the very top of her head, which did not help. Okay, I'm just going. to say it did not help. And we had a. terrible landing even when she did land. the plane, and she's She's coming off. the plane, and she's not going to say. anything to us about the fact that we. clearly almost crashed. And I almost. never directly confront a pilot, but I. actually felt the need to say to her, "Do you think that was a good landing?".

>> [laughter]. >> The woman said, "Well, we hit some sort. of dust bunnies or something. We had to. come around again." And I'm like, "Okay, but did you think that was good?" And. she just kind of looked at me scared. And I said, "How how many hours do you. have in the air?". And she ran off the plane. She ran. She. she She exited. >> Yeah, cuz she knew she was being. questioned by you, by Megan Kelly. That's why. She. >> Dave, don't you just hate it when the. pilot of your private plane, your. private jet, is looks too young? This is. a problem that Mark and Megan have. I.

don't think you and I have ever. experienced that before. I want to have. that problem. >> I was not paying for it. Someone Someone. wanted me to give a speech, and they. offered to get us, you know, transportation. And by the way, it. happened to be to this very hard to get. to location, which is why they got us. this plane. But then I found out after. the fact, they had done it on the cheap. because Maddie, which is that I I. There's nothing wrong with the name. Maddie, but I think when you get older, you graduate to Madeline. >> [laughter]. >> Maddie, with the two pony tail on the. top, she not have run. She ran.

And this doctor on the stand is giving. Maddie, the pilot, vibes where you're. like, "I don't think anybody's life. should have been placed in this woman's. hands." Um and that's a That's an. advantage for the defense. Now, I will. say. if you if you just in getting ready for. today, I read the Tik Tok, you know, 8:17 a.m., 8:18 a.m., 4:00. p.m., 4:53. And what this Tik Tok shows, Dave, is. she's. she's acting kind of normally. Like. you're you're not reading this like, "Oh.

my god, this is a woman who's going to. kill her children later today." And it. does, I think, help more the prosecution. because it it's she's not frothing at. the mouth, she's not like bumping into. walls, she's not saying to the husband. when she talks to him like, "I'm having. the I'm hearing the voices." You know, to the contrary, she seems kind of. normal. She's sending him out to CVS to. get the Miralax for the one child. Like. I think more than anything what helps. the prosecution is just how normal she.

seemed in every moment the day of the. actual murders. >> Yeah, that's why it's important for the. defense to show. that when you have postpartum psychosis, you can mask your symptoms. I mentioned. this earlier, but they can put on. experts to show that people in deep. psychiatric crises can perform everyday. routines, things that look normal on the. surface, engage in like autopilot. behaviors. So, that's what they're going. to lean on. And one thing that was. mentioned earlier is is that this is. Massachusetts. So, not only do you have.

home field advantage to the defense. lawyer with his accent, but also you. have a standard that doesn't exist in. most other states. Normally, the. standard is that you have to have an. established medical condition and not. know the difference between right and. wrong. So, if you jump out of a window. afterwards, say, "Why did you do that?". Cuz you knew what you did was wrong. But, that's not the standard in. Massachusetts. It's much easier to put. forward an insanity defense there. And. as was mentioned earlier, it's very. convoluted. It says, "As a result of a. mental defect that you lack substantial.

capacity to appreciate the criminality. of your conduct." And and then the. burden of proof shifts once you make a. showing to the prosecution, not the. defense. So, it's it's very difficult, I. think, to actually win this case for the. prosecution side. And one last thing, Mark said that the DAs have fault here. That's my friend Matt Matt knows all the. DAs except but this is my buddy in in. Massachusetts, Tim Cruz. And I don't. believe he would actually put someone up. >> Friend of Dave, not friend of Matt. >> That's right. That's how I get it.

straight. I don't think that he would. put anyone up to fail cuz in the end, it's his name on the line. >> Uh I don't know. >> Go ahead, Garagos. >> I'll call him a friend of Dave, a Fod, as opposed to a Fam, a friend of Matt, but the. this guy knows what he's doing. He wouldn't have put this woman in her. giant bows or success. >> What should have happened Garagos in. your opinion? >> Clearly you got Look, the one thing that. and I think my two I'm in the middle of. this prosecutorial sandwich here on the.

>> [laughter]. >> But the the one. >> You're the baloney. >> Yeah. I am the baloney, exactly. I like to. think of it as. smoked ham. But the um. >> [laughter]. >> the one thing that prosecutors will tell. you, if they've got an able defense. lawyer, the. defense lawyers understand the risk of. going to trial. And if you've got a good prosecutor. who's not trying to make a name for. themselves or anything else, you're. going to work out a resolution. I mean,

that's always the case. I mean, one of. the great things about being an. accomplished trial lawyer like Kevin. Redington is is nobody's going to try to. make their bones against it. Maybe some. would, but generally and he would have, I'm sure, come up with a resolution that. would have put her in a psychiatric. hospital where she's going to be anyway. would have been a lockdown facility. And. you wouldn't have had to put Mind you, putting that uh father through this, putting the families through this.

Remember, she's got parents. They were. the grandparents. Can you even imagine. the repercussions amongst the family? I. always say, sometimes prosecutors get. this um. they they become so entrenched in what. in the prosecution that they forget. about whose interests are they. vindicating? The whole idea of a trial. of a criminal trial is you're supposed. to be vindicating somebody's interest. and accountability. And I guarantee you.

there aren't any family members who are. screaming, "I need you to go prosecute. this case." I haven't seen one who said. this. This should have been resolved. It. should have been resolved in a fashion. that was that dealt with it. psychiatrically. She's not getting out. I mean, that's. that's what makes this almost Kabuki. theater-like. It's where are you going. to house her? Reminds me of another case. I've got where the guy, if he pleads. guilty criminally, he's going to be on. one side of the jail. If he gets.

acquitted, he's going to be he's got a. detainer an immigration detainer hold. and they're going to move him to another. wing of the jail and you can't get the. prosecutor to figure out that it doesn't. matter where we house them. So, >> But you can't you can get out of the. mental health facility. We just did an. interview, you know, 2 and 1/2 months. ago with John Hinckley Jr. who is out. and free and wrote a very interesting. book. So, you know, it does matter. She. she could get out. Let's certainly hope. if that's the way this goes, it's past. childbearing age. Um, you know, but she.

she could get out again. One final. question in this case before we move on. Um, how do you like the civil case that. the husband has now brought or is. bringing against Patrick Clancy versus. Dr. Jennifer Tofts and the other. psychiatrist who treated his now. ex-wife, too? Anyone like the chances to. just say. they missed it. They missed it all. Maddie, it's not really her name, missed it all. >> Well, you know, I often tell clients if.

the lawyer says. I'll charge you by the hour, means he. doesn't think much of your case. The. lawyer tells you I'll take it on. contingency, he likes your case. This is. a case I would take on contingency. >> Mhm. I know. I agree. This is a tough. one for these doctors because of course. hindsight's 20/20, but not asking for. the full medical records, Matt, that's. bad. Um, she my information is she held. herself out as a specialist in in. postpartum mental health. So, it you.

know, you can split hairs about expert. specialist, but. you know, this woman was right in front. of her and was being treated by her and. within days. killed her three children and tried to. kill herself. So, it's not a great. record. >> No, I think that the Look, uh. if Dave Aronberg was prosecuting this. case, this. this would be a conviction. Okay? And if. Mark Geragos was defending it against. this prosecutor, she's going to a mental. health facility. And I think I think. this is one of those that really a lot.

of this comes down to um to the lawyers. that were involved and to the strategies. that were employed. And um this case. just the whole thing just it breaks my. heart, Megan. It just does. Um. this is a tough one to watch as. interesting as it is, but um yeah, my my. prediction is uh this this goes this. goes for the defense at the end. >> Right. >> there are some practical takeaways on. it. You know, it's like we shouldn't. lose sight of those just because we're. all lawyers. It's like if your wife, or.

for that matter husband, but it's this. tends to be a postpartum thing, is saying anything about having thoughts. of hurting herself or the children, as. much as you love her and believe she. will she loves the children and will. eventually be sound and safe to be. around them, you have to get those. children away from her. You you have got. to get her away from the children until. you are absolutely certain the mental. health crisis has passed. You have to. She It's like walking around the house. with a loaded gun, except you place the. loaded gun in the hand of a 2-year-old.

toddler who's running and has access to. all the rest of the children. It's. extremely dangerous. You've got to take. this very, very seriously. If that if. there's no other takeaway for families. at home, we should have that one. Go. ahead, Dave. >> Yeah. Now, I if I was a prosecutor, I. mean, maybe I can get a conviction on. one of the lesser charges, but I don't. think any prosecutor really could get a. conviction on first-degree murder here. That's such a hill to climb. Maybe I'll. be wrong. We'll see what the jury says. One one last thing, this civil. litigation filed by the husband, that. helps the defense. That is in line with.

the defense's theory here. So, just. another reason why this case is headed. towards a not guilty verdict. >> If you want someone to blame, blame. those women in the white coats who had. an obligation to help her and and it to. some extent to protect those children. and failed. That's that's going to be. the argument. Okay, let's keep going. Um. Nolan Wells, in that case in the news. very much still. And uh just for the listening audience, this is um a young man who traveled out. to Horn Island off the coast of. Mississippi with his buddies on July.

4th. He was black, all of his friends. were white. This would become relevant. to the Ben Crumps of the world, but not. to the rest of us. Um they were lifelong. friends. They took three boats out there. in in total. Nolan chose not to go back. with the one boat that had transported. him to the island when that boat went. back around 3:30 in the afternoon. because he was talking to a girl, reportedly, and wanted to stay talking. to that girl, a known as Katie. Um. when that boat went back to port and the.

other two boats went back, Nolan wasn't. on either one and it was chaotic and. there were some 30 kids and it wasn't. until later that they realized no one. had Nolan. And then started calling around and. ultimately called his mom and called. authorities and returned his phone to. Nolan's mother who asked for it and they. were happy to give it over. She now. reportedly still has the phone and is. not giving it over to the police, which. is weird. But it's. all the speculation is zeroing in on his.

white friends. as allegedly the last ones to be with. him. But now there are two adults. coming forward saying that they were. there, that they were on this island and. that they saw Nolan as late as 6:00 p.m. that day, which is after. all of his friends had left. Uh and certainly well after the boat in. question that's gotten most of the. accusations, the one that left around. 3:30 because it was taking on water, the. one that made a distress call that is.

recorded but very garbled that this. internet sleuth tells us has a full. confession to murdering Nolan on it. Um. but now you've got at least two. witnesses. uh re- reportedly speaking with. authorities, adults, who will say, "No, no, no, no, no. Nolan was on Horn Island. as late as 6:00 p.m. long after the boys. left." Which should be ballgame, but the. question is. will it be ballgame in this wacky world. in which we're internet sleuthing and no. explanation is a good one and real facts.

don't make any difference at all, Matt. Murphy? >> No, it's not going to make any. difference. Um in in the real world, what they're going to do this they're. running this through grand jury. So, a. lot of information we still don't have. um because it's a grand jury process. And they're going to it's an it's my. understanding it's an investigative role. for the grand jury, which is one of the. options. Um and they're going to find um. my prediction is they're going to find. that this was a tragic accident at the. end. Um and it'll never be enough for.

for some people, Megan. And that um for. lack of a better term, it really sucks. Um I've I've watched the interviews with. these kids uh at least two of them have. gone public and if you I'd encourage. people to watch that. Um one of them was. with a guy named Officer Tatum who um is. a a police officer. >> Yeah, and the guy's great and he asked. all the right questions and just y- you. watch this kid answering the questions. and it's just he comes off as a. brokenhearted guy who lost one of his. best buddies and um I think that.

everybody should watch that um because. it y-. >> fit the Ben Crump Al Sharpton narrative, though. But wait, can I just ask you a. question, Dave, as a former prosecutor? Can What do you mean they can't get the. cell phone from the victim's mother, from the decedent's mother? Doesn't she. have to turn it over if the cops say, "We want it?" or if a grand jury. subpoena it their way? >> Y- yes, that's why I'm surprised. These. are reports, so we don't know for sure. I saw reports that they had given the. information over, but they still have. the phone. So, I don't know. But, yes, they need to give it over. It's really.

important, especially with all the. misinformation out there. And And this. case is now starting to give me some of. the Duke lacrosse vibes here, where you. have these kids who are being wrongfully. accused in the court of public opinion. at the beginning, and and the evidence. just keeps supporting them, every bit. that comes out. >> It's so true, and they've been open. books about, you know, look at. everything. We, you know, they've been. talking to the authorities from the. beginning. They've been totally. cooperative. Every day brings a new. accusation against a new kid who was. there with their friend Nolan, or trying. to help the guys who had water coming on.

their boats. It's really despicable. Um. okay, that's it for this panel, you. guys. Thank you. Uh a pleasure, as. always. Up next, our second Kelly's. Court panel, and and we got a. I don't know if you could say better, but equally compelling set of cases for. our two. Don't go away. Hey, thanks for watching today's full. episode. If you're new here, throw us a. subscribe. See what you think. Stay in. touch. There's plenty more goodness. where this one came from. As always, we. really do value your feedback. So, email.

me, too. Megan, m e g y n at. megankelly.com, or just leave a comment. down below. I do read them. I meander. over, and I scroll through, and I find. them very entertaining, and really. appreciate the feedback. But, in any. event, join the community by becoming a. subscriber, so you miss nothing. We. value your support. We may not always. agree on positions, but as you know, I'm. very open-minded to people who disagree. with me. That's how I learn. So, thanks. And thanks for trusting us to always. talk about it, openly, honestly, and.

with provocative conversations. You. don't wait until your house is on fire. to install a smoke detector. You don't. wait until the wind and rain hammer your. windows, and the power goes out to. prepare for a hurricane. You don't reach. for your seatbelt after you've had a. crash, because after the crash, the. hurricane, or the house fire, it's all. too late. Similarly, you do not wait until the. dollar goes to zero before you buy gold. It's too late then, too. So, consider diversifying with precious. metals right now, because you never know. what will threaten your savings next.

Persistent inflation, we've all been. feeling that. A weakening dollar, unexpected financial disruptions, you. don't know what's coming. But, you can. take a preventative step right now. One option, requesting a free info kit. on gold from Birch Gold Group. Just text my initials MK to the number. 989898. There is no cost, there is no. obligation, they're not about pressuring. you. You will just get straightforward. information on how you can diversify. your savings, even an IRA or a 401K, if.

you're interested, with gold. Birch Gold. is a great option to consider. Find out. more by texting MK to the number 989898. While we're on the subject of legal. matters, before we get to our next. Kelly's Court Cases, [music] I want to. bring you a clip of our latest MK. Confidential series, which debuted last. night. I am so into this story. I, through all my listening to Dateline and. 48 Hours and all the true crime space, I. had never heard of the story of John.

List. Our series this week is called The. Annihilator. He is what is known as a family. annihilator from a suburban town in New. Jersey in the 1970s. All right, look at this. Here's a clip. The manhunt for John List starts big and. goes nowhere. The murder of an entire family in a New. Jersey mansion is national news. And for. a while, the whole nation does pay. attention. His face goes out on FBI wanted posters,

into police stations and pharmacies. across the country, describing him, among other things, as reportedly a neat. dresser. The bureau takes the case because a. killer who has crossed a state line is. federal business. Detectives in Westfield build a theory. around the kind of man they believe he. is. Someone so bound to his church and his. routines that sooner or later he will. have to surface at some Lutheran church. in some quiet town. They settle in.

[music] to wait for it. Okay, so let me tell you something. Doug. and I have been listening to this. Now. we are now at the point where it's like. we're like, "Hey, be quiet. We we We. need to hear this." I've tracked the. series. I've edited all the scripts. I. have a great team actually doing the. producing. But I am into this one. Uh so check it out. Do Put me to the. test, okay? To see if you agree with me. Episode two hits tonight. Episode one's. only at the Each one is a half an hour. We've been airing them in evenings at. 9:00 p.m. Uh they get released as a.

podcast and on our YouTube feed as well. And uh. so by the end of the week you'll have, you know, what I guess 2 and 1/2 hours. of content. Uh but you'll hear episode. two tonight. If you haven't reached. episode one, you can just watch that. instead. Uh and watch the series along. with me. It's right here on our Megan. Kelly podcast feed and YouTube channel. as well. Uh also wanted to tell you that. we are waiting at this hour to hear the. resolution to the story that we brought. you last week about the surrogate, McKenna West. Here's a clip of when she.

was on on uh Thursday. >> It was a reassuring conversation that. really they wanted a baby. Um they. weren't exactly sure. what decision they would make if. something came up, but they ultimately. just wanted to be parents. And so I felt. confident moving forward with with them. that termination would not be their. first choice. >> Well, McKenna is almost due with this. couple's baby. It's their biological.

child, but she's carrying it. Um. and they objected. The The parents. objected to her seeing the pregnancy. through to full term because they wanted. her to have an abortion. um at around the 20-week mark. We don't. know their names. They're just going. under their initials in the lawsuit. But. it's because the baby was diagnosed with. congenital heart defects, which they. view as catastrophic, but we have seen. you can live through and actually go on.

to thrive not. uh despite having. And we profile a. story when we interviewed McKenna of a. little boy who went through exactly. this. He wasn't the only one. And I understand, look, it's their. biological child, but they've involved a. third party in the in the birth of that. child in the in the having of that. child. Without McKenna, they couldn't. have this baby. And she does not want to abort this. child over. birth defects that are survivable. Say their medical experts and say the.

independent research that we've done. So, she's now She's from um Alaska. And they're in California, and the law. is much better for them in California. She's now in Texas, McKenna is, with. this baby about to come. I mean, he's. due in September. She's calling him Gabriel. And she has said to the parents, "Just. just let me take him. Like if you if you. if you want to abort him, I'm not. aborting him, but if you don't want this. child, I'll take him." Her brother. volunteered to adopt him. There are. many, many families who are would be.

happy to adopt him. Lila Rose um of Live. Action has been very instrumental in. this whole case. She's very, very, very. pro-life in a wonderful way. And um. the parents are fighting because they. want to have custody of their child, their biological child, as soon as he's. born. And McKenna's worried that they. want the custody so that they can give. him only comfort care and allow him to. die. Now, we don't know whether that's their. plan. We haven't been able to speak with. them. We don't know their identities. But that's her fear.

And they are litigating. And she wants. to be able to call the shots and make. sure the child gets he needs he's going. to need an operation right away. And. then two more over the course of his. first two years. In any event, it's a. very fraught, compelling, emotional, legal fight. And we've been told by the. legal teams that we're dealing with over. on McKenna's side that they expect a. ruling out of a Texas court on what's. going to have to happen when this baby's. born possibly within the hour. So, we. are monitoring our contacts with them. and we'll bring you an update just as.

soon as we have it. If not before the. end of the show today, then if we have. it, we'll bring it to you tomorrow. Praying for a. a. a good I don't know, is that too bold? Result. in this courtroom. I. I really, really hope and pray and I've. been praying for these parents, too. I. really have. They're They're I realize. in a very difficult situation, but if. they don't want to raise a boy who has. these problems or deal with these. problems or has medical expenses, fear, you know,

I pray they come to the right decision. on allowing somebody else to take it on. I'm sure it is too much for for just for. everybody. But, there are willing, loving. volunteers who will help. So, hopefully. they've received that message and will. make a good choice. All right. Um moving. on. This is a story out of Oklahoma that is. making national headlines. That is kind of stunning. Okay. Walk through this with me. March of 2025.

A then 17-year-old. young man named Jesse Butler. is arrested after two, not one, but two. ex-girlfriends accuse him of rape and of. strangling them to the point of. unconsciousness. One after the other in. it's about a six or seven-month period. claim this happened to them. Butler was at first charged as an adult. with 10 felonies, including first degree. rape and battery by strangulation. Very,

very serious charges. Here is the body. cam video of his arrest. Watch. >> So, we're here. We're obviously going to. place you under arrest. There's a. warrant for your arrest. We're going to. take you to the jail. I told your mom. that she can contact a bondsman. And you. shouldn't be very there very long. But. there just is a process for paperwork. and stuff. But right now you do have to come with. us and I do have to put you in. handcuffs. So, turn around for me. >> Do I have to put on the handcuffs? >> I. >> Yeah, I'm going to try to see if I can.

arrange for somebody to come and get me. some clothes. >> I got you. >> You know where you're going to be in. this? >> It's okay. >> Yeah, I know. >> You got the key? >> Yeah. I'll get you out. Okay? All right. Stay silent. Break the news. about this. Candy's on the dance on his. way. We're coming to get you, okay? Stay [music] strong, okay? Say your. prayers. >> Nothing in your socks.

>> But Jess, think about. >> Mhm. So, this young man, Jesse Butler, was. facing up to 78 years in prison. But. that's before he got the plea deal of. all plea deals, thanks to the Oklahoma. Youthful Offender's Act, which was. passed in 1994, which allows those under. 18 who are charged with serious crimes, the only exception is first degree. murder, to be prosecuted as juveniles. Now, according to multiple reports,

Judge Susan Worthington granted Jesse. Butler's request to be certified as a. youthful offender. And according to the Payne County. Clerk's Office, Judge Worthington. then promptly retired. She's gone on to. retire. Butler then switched his plea. once he was afforded this juvenile. offender status, from not guilty to no. contest and was permitted to complete a. rehabilitation plan at home along with. 150 hours of community service.

His case officially ended last Monday, August 3rd, after a different judge. ruled that Butler had complied with the. plan and that the court lost. jurisdiction when he turned 19 on August. 4th. Here is a report from KOTV explaining. what happened. >> This was the moment Jesse Butler walked. out of the Payne County Courthouse for. the final time, closing the chapter on a. high-profile sexual assault case that. drew public outcry across Oklahoma and. the nation. On Monday, a Payne County.

judge dismissed Butler's youthful. offender case one day before his 19th. birthday. Butler was granted youthful. offender status after initially being. charged as an adult, later entering no. contest pleas in a case involving the. sexual assault of two teenage girls. Monday's hearing was the final review of. Butler's rehabilitation plan. The office. of Juvenile Affairs said he completed. every requirement. The judge said that. left the court with no choice. Under. Oklahoma law, his supervision ends when. he turns 19 and the court has no.

authority to extend it. Butler's. attorney called it a big day for his. client, encouraging him to not look back. in a speech that left the victim and the. victim's family in tears, prompting an. impassioned response from the newly. sworn in Payne County District Attorney. who called the attorney's speech a quote. disingenuous sack of garbage.

>> [clears throat]. >> You can find both shows at. just go to wherever you get your podcast. type in MK True Crime and hit subscribe. and on YouTube as well same thing. All podcast platforms and on YouTube. All right guys great to see you all. So. just for the listening audience so this.

is what happened here. The two girls are. remaining anonymous they go by LS and. KS. They said the abuse took place over. several months in 2024. They reported it. to a school resource officer in. September of 2024 who alerted police. According to an arrest warrant affidavit. LS. um who I think was. she yeah she was the first girl. who he dated and allegedly assaulted. He. dated her from January to March of 2024. and then it appears he picked up with KS.

in April. uh or late March of 2024 to September of. 2024. So all told we're talking about um. from January 2024 to September 20 about. a 9-month period and the. LS was first then Kim KS is his. girlfriend. Uh okay here's what LS. alleges. She told the detective that. they dated. that he frequently physically and. sexually assaulted her. She said he attempted on February 2nd. again they just started dating the month. earlier.

attempted to rape her in a vehicle but. was interrupted when a woman approached. the car. LS said she believed the woman is. quoting here from the affidavit had. heard her yelling crying and saying no. Butler then allegedly drove to his home. where LS's car was parked and attempted. to rape her again before she managed to. escape. LS said Butler warned her if she went to. the cops quote they would both be in. trouble. Okay now it's. I I just got to say it's February 2nd I. would certainly hope that God forbid. this kind of thing ever happened to my.

daughter or any young girl. that there would not be another. encounter after February 2nd if that. happened. There there would be no. secondary attempt at anything because. this person would be out of your life. and under some sort of restraining order. and possibly in handcuffs, but she. alleges that. 27 days after that first alleged assault. on February 29th. after she refused to engage in sexual. acts with him. uh that he strangled her to the point of.

unconsciousness. and that when she woke up he was. laughing at her. Just just before we get too down too far. down the lane of well, she must be full. of because why would she go back to. him and allow him this opportunity to. potentially put hands on her? Um the New York Post is reporting that. this victim had to have surgery. because of the strangulation. So this is. as serious as a heart attack apparently. what happened to this girl. An attorney for LS did not immediately. respond to a request for comment.

Um okay, then. KS comes into Butler's life from March. to September. According to the arrest affidavit, KS. told detectives that in April, again, she started dating him the month before. at a drive-in restaurant, Butler tried. to touch her without consent. When she. refused, he threw her to the ground. scratching her arm and laughed about it. afterward. KS said she engaged in sexual. activities with Butler throughout their. relationship quote to prevent physical. aggression from him. According to the affidavit uh telling.

the detective she had learned quote what. to do and what not to do to keep from. being hurt. She also described two. strangulation incidents she said took. place in the summer. In the first, while she was house. sitting for a friend, Butler strangled. her she said until she lost. consciousness leaving red marks on her. neck. Days later she said he strangled. her again. This time. again, you're like, could this possibly. be true? Why would she have another. encounter with him after an alleged. strangulation? Well, stay tuned because. she says days later he strangled her.

again. This time filming it on his. phone. Investigators later obtained a. search warrant for Butler's phone and. recovered a video dated August 1st, 2024. that appeared to show him strangling. her, K.S., until she passed out, according to court. filings. In a separate incident described in the. affidavit, Butler allegedly dragged K.S. by the neck and hair from her home to a. vehicle in her driveway. So, Johnna, you. tell me. >> Mhm. >> how any prosecutor with this level of.

evidence. accepted this juvenile status thing and. no contest plea and a little home. confinement. with a few hours of community service. >> Yeah. >> as the punishment. >> I don't know what exactly we're missing. because certainly the prosecution had an. opportunity to try this person as an. adult, not just for the sexual assault, but if you have what what you just. described, Megan, as an attempted. murder, if you ask me, on his cell.

phone, why they would then agree to. prosecute him, I put that in air quotes, under the youthful offender statute. I. don't know if his family is well. connected. I don't know if there is. maybe behind the scenes, is there some. question about the balance of the. evidence that has been put forth, whether they would not have been. successful in adult court. These are all. the things that the prosecution has to. think about when they're making these. kinds of charging decisions, but how do. you get around? How do you get around a.

video? That's the part that that is. mind-boggling to me. And I would like to. know from them why they decided to do. what they did despite that kind of of. evidence. >> Yes, because our understanding, Mark, is. that. this wasn't required to afford him the. juvenile status. It was It had to be. filed as a motion, and that what's what. the victims are so angry about, among. other things, is that the the. prosecutor's office, well, it's now. being run by a a DA who's outraged, at.

the time was with a different person and. that person had to agree. So, this was. by agreement. between the prosecutor and the defense. attorney that he would be treated as a. youthful offender and the judge as well. could have said I'm not signing off on. this but did to both that status and. then the subsequent legal slap on the. wrist. >> Yeah, we're likely missing something. This guy is a dangerous predator and I. don't think picking up some trash on the. side of the road even for 150 hours is.

going to rid him of his violent sexual. deviant urges. So, we're missing. something because it doesn't add up. Generally, I find that prosecutors. aren't soft on crime. Every time. immediately people start put pointing. their finger and saying, "Well, they're. soft or whatever." That's usually not. it. There's usually some type of proof. issue. There's usually something going. on with the case where they say, "Well, it's kind of weak. At least we'll get. him to admit and we'll have him under. our eye for a couple of years." The.

judge, all you had to do was say. retirement and then everything made. sense to me because no judge, especially. one that has to run for re-election, would ever consider this type of. deviation. I think it's a miscarriage of. justice. >> Okay. And I just I. I just want to say. I'm not 100% sure that the DA's office. agreed to the youthful. offender status. It's true that in May. of 2025, Butler's attorney filed a. motion seeking youthful offender. certification and that that that that.

was granted. It was granted. >> That makes sense then. >> And then the DA's. And then the DA's office seems to have. been telling the victims that he would. be subjected to more severe punishment. This is what the allegations feel are. that um. the. Hold on, I want to get it correctly. That um. the victims and their families were told. by the DA's office that Jesse Butler. would plead guilty. and would serve time at a juvie facility.

in exchange for youthful offender. status. However, just before an August. 2025 hearing, um the families learned that Butler. would not agree to plead guilty and. would not agree to incarcer-. incarceration incarceration at a. juvenile facility at all. Um. we don't know who the district attorney. was according to the filing, but we did. find out after the fact that it was. Laura Austin Thomas, who also retired in April. So, the DA.

who handled this, Laura Austin Thomas, has retired. And we believe the judge. has retired. And um. when the victims found out that this was. going to be. certain no time served and not a. pleading of guilty, but no contest and. at home confinement with a little. community service, they both urged the. court to reject the the the plea, um saying this is an outrageous, cannot. happen, and the newly elected district. attorney. says he's pissed, too. He also objects.

So, I don't you tell you tell me what. your take is and how this went down. How. this could have possibly gone down. >> Well, at the risk of sounding too much. like a parrot, I have to parrot what my. colleagues have said and that there's. there's things that we don't know. Some. things missing or maybe several things. are missing from what we know. Now, obviously, the recitation of the alleged. facts that you went through is. horrifying. And if someone's guilty of. that, you know, Mark is entirely. correct. That's a person who probably.

should never breathe free air again, and. this would be an extreme miscarriage of. justice. But, uh what we don't know is. whether the prosecutors were asleep at. the switch. We don't know if prosecutors. were just lazy. We don't know if they. were just soft on crime or we don't know. if they are aware of problems with the. strength of their case that we're. unaware of. Sometimes evidence is not. admissible. >> You have it a strangulation on video and. with one alleged victim and the other.

alleged victim needed a surgery to. address the strangulation, you're in. pretty good territory as a DA. >> not because I've had cases involving. rape fantasy sex where people were. charged with crimes as it turn it turns. out to be not a crime. And uh our. colleague Ashley Merchant and I recently. finished a case where the factual. allegations not including the the. surgery for uh strangulation, but some. of the rest of these facts not including. the ages of the parties involved are.

strikingly similar. And after a. four-year ordeal, a prosecutor who. finally took a critical look at the case. said, "You know what? These witnesses. are not credible. We can't prove what we. thought we could prove and the entire. thing was dismissed." So, I'm my I'm I'm. not taking sides on this. I'm simply. saying we don't know what the prosecutor. did and did not know. Um it could be. that they were just sloppy. It could be. they were just disengaged and checked.

out, ready to retire. Or it could be. that there was a problem with. credibility of some of the witness. statements. It could be a problem with. maybe the way the police obtained. evidence and maybe some of it was. subject to being suppressed so the. prosecutors had to get the best they. could do. I'm saying that what we ought. to do is try to get some of these people. on this program and ask them why because. I don't really like guessing about it, but I can tell you that there is. definitely something missing from this. calculation that none of us are aware. of. >> Mhm. I mean John, if you're a a DA.

and just to play devil's advocate here. and you're looking at a situation in. which the the victims the alleged. victims. >> Mhm. >> repeatedly went back to the guy, you. know, after they say he he attempted to. rape me and he attempted to strangle me. and then there's another date, and. another date, and another date, and the. relationship goes on for more months. It's not great. That is a definitely a. bad fact for team prosecution. And to Phil's point, unfortunately, this. is a weird little like sex fetish trend.

Not saying these girls agreed to it. But it is a thing that we're hearing. more and and more about this. strangulation thing that unfortunately. guys who have watched too much. pornography decide to try on their young. girls, their girlfriends. And these. girlfriends too often, I'm not saying it. was the case with these girls, but too. often they feel like they have to go. along with it because they're not sexy, they're not fun, they're not cool if. they're not, you know, willing to.

partake in the latest risky behavior. It's very sad, but it is something we're. reading a lot about in the news these. days. >> I mean, if we are playing devil's. advocate, sure, at that age, let's. assume that these kids, right, 17 years. old, are exploring their sexuality. This. is not a situation where you have. somebody who's been married to someone. for 10 years who has been repeatedly. beaten, who can't leave because they. don't have a job and three kids, and. that kind of battered woman syndrome. These are teenagers who come and get you. know, I I changed boyfriends like I.

changed my underwear when I was that. age. Like you're not. You're not stuck. So, why they would. have a second date or a third date or. not tell. Could you imagine coming home. and saying, "Oh, hey mom, hey dad, yeah, my new boyfriend tried to choke me. That's what the marks are for." They'd. be he'd be dead. He'd be dead. Right? And my father would be in in jail. >> I I have two points. Um, first, um, I. don't need the image of Jonna changing. her underwear. And number two, >> [laughter].

>> yeah, please, none of that. Um, and. number two, what bothers me again is. it's like Kohberger all over again where. the parents were saying, "This is. outrageous. Nobody sat us down and. explained this to us. We were blindsided. by the plea. That can't happen. >> Good point. >> That cannot happen. What do we need to. body cam prosecutors going into a room. saying, "Okay, let me explain everything. to you here." This cannot happen. And. victims are getting victimized all over. again. It shouldn't be coming from the.

prosecutor. >> I tell you what, a smart prosecutor. would do. >> it's true. Otherwise, you wouldn't have. the current DA so pissed off. This is. exactly what he said. His name is. Jeremiah Gregory, and he said, "I cannot. undo what has already been done, but I. can and will continue to stand as a. strong voice for all victims of violent. crime." And is now saying he's going to. refer this to federal prosecutors for. review because he thinks there might. still be. federal charges available. Just as a as.

an FYI, um some commentators have pointed out. that Jesse Butler's family is prominent. in the community. He was a popular. baseball player at his high school. His. father is the former director of. operations for the Oklahoma State. University football team. The special. judge who granted Butler youthful. offender status, Susan Susan. Worthington, who's now retired, has long-standing ties to OSU. She. received two bachelor's degrees there. Again, we don't know whether any of that. played any role whatsoever in this, but. now that you have new blood on the case,

Jeremiah Gregory, the newly elected DA, he sees it differently. I don't know. whether he's going to be able to get the. feds interested in a case that's all. wrapped up in a bow already, Phil. >> Can I share with you what a smart. prosecutor will do when they are looking. to either agree to some type of a. sweetheart plea deal on an otherwise. very egregious set of facts or even a. dismissal like in the case that I was. telling you about that Ashley Merchant. and I just finished. A smart prosecutor. is going to go on the record in open. court, and there will be a court.

reporter taking all of this down, and. and he or she will say, "Judge, these. are the factual allegations. However, we've made the following decisions and. here's why. We talked to this victim and. this victim was not able to provide a. consistent. explanation for our prior inconsistent. statements or we looked at this piece of. evidence and we decided that it weighed. against guilt. Judge, by the way, we've talked to the. victims and their families who are. opposed to this. However, we are.

obligated to follow the law and we are. obligated to do justice. We're not. obligated to do what families of victims. want us to do and here, Judge, is why we. are unable to. acquiesce to their wishes and put it all. out on the record. That way shows like. this don't really have much to talk. about because we know the part that is. missing, the thing that we identified at. the beginning of the segment. There's. something missing and if the prosecutor.

were smart and had gone on the record. and laid all of this out, then we. wouldn't be even probably having this. conversation, but that's how a smart. prosecutor would handle it. >> That doesn't fix the problem, Phil. Number one, they'd be blindsided. Those. conversations need to be had before they. get to court and tell them what the. problem is. They need to be having those. conversations privately and then the. second thing is when I was a prosecutor, often times you can't really lay out in. detail things like, "I found the victim. not to be credible. I found that you.

know, you're now you're trashing people. in open court." It's very dicey. Like. >> you say is you say, "Well, Judge, we. can't prove it beyond a reasonable. doubt." There's code words, but it means. the same thing. >> we're going to talk about such a memo, such a non-prosecution memo in our next. case when we come back from break with. this wrestler who alleges that she was. sexually assaulted by a trans opponent. who she says put his fingers in her. coochie. That's what she alleged. That. was a That's a quote. That's her quote, Mark Eiglarsh. >> I don't know what that means. it. me,

Johnna. Johnna, help me. What is Megan. saying? >> And there was a non-prosecution. agreement or not agreement, but finding. there. However, that their problems are not yet. over, which is why it's on Kelly's court. today. Okay, we're going to pause. We. will get to that case [music] and more. right after this break. Don't go away. Imagine this. You're surrounded by. fellow fans sharing wings, sharing. drinks, high-fiving random strangers. Everyone remembers the game. Nobody. remembers the guy coughing behind you. until a few days later at 2:00 a.m. you.

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what's happened. There's this case where a girl wrestler. in Washington state claims that she was. sexually assaulted by a trans wrestler, a boy posing as a girl in a wrestling. match. Going to show the video. And while this. may just look like a wrestling match to. us, the girl who you can see has got the. long hair in here is claiming that there. was a sexual assault that happened. She's on the bottom here. She is. claiming that the boy posing as a girl.

shoved his fingers up her vagina in the. midst of this, and she actually called. out at the moment to her mother on the. sidelines, "He's got his fingers up my coochie.". And um she says she let him pin her. to stop it. And her lawyer say what we're witnessing. here is not a wrestling match, but a. sexual assault. She was very distressed, reportedly, when this ended to the point that she. went and complained, her mother did, to.

the school authorities saying, "What in. God's name? You didn't even tell her. that she was wrestling a boy. She. thought she was wrestling a girl." There. were so many issues with that, separate. and apart from it this the alleged. sexual assault. But I mean, in wrestling, obviously, the. the the size and and. natural testosterone of a boy would be. something to contend with and put. something potentially dangerous for a. girl. So, the parents are not happy. So, what's happened now is because the. principal principal. and the athletic coordinator did not.

report it. They didn't report it, and they're. mandatory reporters. If you have a minor. who comes to you and says, "I was. sexually assaulted on school grounds. That's the boy who did it. It's all on. tape. He put his fingers inside of me. against my will. This was not consented. to." You have an obligation to report. it. They didn't. And now Pierce County prosecutors out. there in Washington have charged the. principal and the athletic coordinator. of Rogers High School in. Puyallup, I don't know how to pronounce. p u y a l l u p. My apologies to our.

listeners out there, Washington, with a. gross misdemeanor for allegedly failing. to notify authorities after Kally. Keeler, she's the alleged victim, reported that she had been sexually. assaulted by her trans opponent. The. principal, uh this guy Smith, and the coordinator. of Collins charged July 21st with. failure to comply with the mandatory. reporting law. They both pleaded not. guilty. And um. the law at issue says. "When any professional school personnel. has reasonable cause to believe a child. has suffered abuse or neglect, he shall.

report an incident to the proper law. enforcement agency. The report must be. made at the first opportunity, but in no. case longer than 48 hours after there is. reasonable cause to believe that the. child has suffered abuse or neglect.". Um they say that they waited 55 days. before doing it after they'd been. informed that Smith. uh. Hold on a second. Let's see. Yeah, that's Smith. This is one of the. defendants, the principal. Smith. informed a school resource officer about.

the incident on January 30th, but was. told on December 6th following Keeler. filing a school incident report that. day. Keeler filed a report 2 days after. her mother asked the wrestling coach for. an update on the investigation, and the. coach responded that "They've shut me. out of the situation.". So, um. are they doing the right thing in going. after these. administrators for ignoring this even. though the Pierce County prosecutors. have declined to prosecute the. transgender wrestler? Jonna?

>> Yeah. Do your job. You're a resource officer. You're a mandated reporter by statute. It is not your job to determine whether. the facts are true or not. If you have. reasonable cause, you must do it. What. is reasonable cause? Okay? Female. wrestler comes to you and says, "This. happened." You can see for yourself. You. can roll the video tape and see that. this is likely to have occurred. Your. job is to report it. That's the end of. your job. That's the end of your. responsibility.

Do it. These people didn't, and it is a. crime to not report when you are a. mandated reporter. I support this. prosecution. Frankly, it's not enough. I'm disappointed with the prosecutor. that they're not going to prosecute this. person. We Phil and I did have a. conversation off air about the physics. of this, which is interesting, but I. believe this female wrestler when she. says this happened. >> Yeah. >> Here's Here's what they say, Phil.

In that This is the. the non-prosecution memo by the DA who. [snorts] is writes a letter to Detective. Thompson who investigated it. Cuz they. were we're evaluating two things. Do. they have a mandatory duty to report and. can they be prosecuted for this. misdemeanor offense of not reporting it, the administrators? But then secondly, were they correct not to charge the. transgender wrestler with with assault. or sexual assault? And this speaks to. that second issue. I guess Well, just. just the second issue. The prosecution.

writes to the detective, "Thanks for. thoroughly interviewing the many. witnesses to the incident, particularly. those involved in the sport itself. As that's the correct inquiry. As. someone who has no history with. wrestling, I was unaware that touching. in the area of genitals and buttocks is. somewhat common, including the sensation. that an opponent may be penetrating. genitals.". Okay. I'm I detect a woke ass Washington. DA. I'm just going to say it. The. sensation that one is penetrating. genitals, I'm sorry, but women know if.

their genitals are getting penetrated or. not. What the is this? Thank you. Going to keep going. Um Apparently, according to the athletic. director for Rogers High School, Peter. Collins, this is one of the guys. charged, this practice or sensation is. common enough to have a nickname in the. wrestling community, which she claims it. or he claims, I don't know if this is a. male or female DA, is oil checking. in wrestling circles. The referee who. presided over the match appears to have. said that while nothing stood out to him. during the match, after watching the. video of the match, he could not say.

that the suspect's hand placement was. quote anything out of the ordinary, that. it seemed as though the suspect was. attempting to put the victim in a half. Nelson, and appeared to be attempting to. lift the victim's leg to try to turn her. to her back and that sometimes in the. course of a match it just you grab what. you can grab. That's something that. happens in almost every match. And. you get fingers up your vagina in almost. every This is. I smell woke. administrators who are trying to cover. for a trans athlete. That's my own.

personal opinion, Phil Holloway. >> Well, look, I think that the school. should have reported it. I think that. the statute was triggered. There are. some wiggle words in there like. reasonable belief and all this, but if. but if you look if you listen to the. the female athlete, she makes the claim. She's very specific. She makes an outcry. apparently in the moment to her mom and. she surrenders the match. You can look. at the video and while you can't see. specifically, thank God, what the. fingers are doing, you can see that the.

fingers are in the in the area. anatomically of where they would be. >> There was opportunity. >> to to basically. corroborate her claim. So, I think they. should have immediately made the report. And look, if. if you have that type of corroboration, the police had to do more than give this. the old whitewash. It is true and my son. is a high school wrestler and it is true. that that it's it can be a very intimate.

sport. There's a lot of grabbing. There's a lot of touching and by. definition, you know, there's lots of. physical contact that if it had occurred. out on the street somewhere, it would be. a crime. But in the wrestling arena, it's not. But you don't consent to a. sexual assault simply because you you. you enter into the wrestling ring or you. step on a basketball court or anything. else. And so, this deserved a proper. investigation. It deserves prosecutors. who are willing to. look for a viable prosecution, not just.

say look, what this is why we can't. prosecute. It's like they were going out. of their way to justify why they just. couldn't possibly prosecute this male. for sexually assaulting this female. I. think she deserves her day in court and. she didn't get it. >> I gosh, let me say let me let me set it. up for you like this. The this. non-prosecution memo that the DA wrote. talks about how well, there are other. cases is another case in which they. found that a basketball player consented.

to you know, basically getting punched. in the face by their opponent by playing. basketball because it's very contact. sport, you know, that these things can. happen. You can't really sue for assault. after the fact or ask for criminal. prosecution. That is after the fact. Okay, so that's what she's kind of. basing this off of. Again, I'm saying. she but I don't know if it's a woman. Um however, I I it is a woman. Okay, this does not. apply. This logic doesn't apply because. there is another distinct possibility. here. And I'm sorry to be the one to.

break it to this DA, but men posing as. women, the vast majority of them, are. autogynephiles autogynephiles. [clears throat] And what that means is. it's a sexual fetish. It's not actually. a gender confusion issue. It's a sexual. fetish. They get turned on by dressing. as women and being around women and. posing as women in front of women and. making women watch and participate in. their fantasy. And we should not confuse sexuality with. gender. You can be an autogynephile male.

who likes doing this and perfectly. hetero. Okay, it doesn't mean you're not. necessarily gay. So, you can get turned on by women and. want to have sex with women and still. want to dress like a woman and claim. you're a woman. All right? So, there is. a very real possibility that this. so-called trans wrestler is an. autogynephile, was turned on by wearing the women's. singlets, wrestling against a woman,

pretending to be a woman. and that sticking his fingers up the. coochie was actually very much part of. his whole sexual fetish/fantasy. that this prosecutor made absolutely no. allowance for because of course the. knee-jerk instinct would be. trans people don't do anything wrong. ever. Only young women make. up about their coochies. >> Okay, so I have a lot you put a lot out. there Megan and I have some thoughts and. some of them are going to take a lot of.

crap from you and Jonna from in just a. moment. All right. So first let's start. off with I don't agree with the. statement that the prosecutors put out. there and I find it a little offensive. and their words were any harmful and. offensive touching/penetration. was a direct byproduct of the game and. this type of behavior is sufficiently. common as to be foreseeable. Now if they're lumping in sexual assault. where someone actually digitally. penetrate someone, I find that to be. offensive and I think it's different. than a foul at the rim in basketball,

okay? So we start there. The second. thing is I want to put my son in that. wrestling onesie and I don't know that. much about wrestling, but let's say it's. him. wrestling someone else and someone. claims that he digitally penetrated them. some way, right? We start the analysis. with there's a difference between. believability and accuracy. You jumped. on the a girl would know for sure.

Megan, we don't know this particular. girl. We don't know what actually. happened. >> A girl knows. >> Hold on. Hold on. I don't disagree. >> A girl knows if someone's fingers are in. her vagina. >> I got I I don't disagree. What I'm saying is proving that to a. jury under these circumstances, okay, is. a very strong strong challenge. The. >> No, it isn't. >> One second. my vagina had nothing in it.

The next second, there were fingers in. there. >> Right. >> Case closed. That's all you need. >> Well, listen, it's possible that she be. either believes it or said it because. she was losing the match and she wanted. to save face and say this man this man. Thank you. I'm just looking at motives. Again, pretend it's your own offspring. and all of a sudden you have a different. thought process on it, okay? >> Yeah, no, I don't know this girl. I. don't know whether she's 100% telling. the truth or not. >> Okay, there we go. So, I do believe in. the mandatory reporting. The it's not.

for them to evaluate who's telling the. truth, who's not. Report it right away. They screwed up and the good news is now. there'll be a ripple effect and. administrators won't be slow to do that. They know they can wind up a guest of. the pokey, okay? But I'm not 100% sure. that this is a case that could be proven. beyond into the exclusion of every. reasonable doubt under those. circumstances. Doesn't make sense to me. It's not fair. >> Megan. >> Yeah, you're trans. You're you're so. blinded by the whole trans thing, Megan. I just take Let's say it's a [laughter].

female. Let's say it's a female. Female on female. You're making it. >> female. What are you saying? What? It's. not a female. It's one female and one. fake female. >> I'm saying whatever applies here would. apply to a female on a female and a male. on a male. You still have to have beyond. a reasonable doubt. You're adding this. stuff about trans. >> that it's a dude. It is relevant that. it's a dude. And poor and this poor girl. did not even know she was wrestling. against a dude, which changes I mean, imagine her confusion. This is kind of.

what the ADF has been suggesting. She. thought another girl was sexually. assaulting her, Phil. And only after the. fact did she find out they subjected her. to a male with all that implies without. her consent. >> You know, to to March's point, a jury. can convict someone. simply on the testimony of one witness. if that is if that witness is to be is. believable. If they believe one witness. So, you don't need mountains and. mountains of evidence. What you need is. you need a prosecutor who's willing to.

give her her day in court. You've got. the statement on its face, it makes out. a crime. It's corroborated by what you. see in the video. True, you can't see. exactly where the fingers are, but you. can see that they are in generally the. right place. to corroborate the you know what I'm. saying. Well, >> and look, you don't consent to that. Mark. >> You don't consent to sexual assault. simply because you simply because you. [laughter] go into the wrestling. >> Phil, I want to challenge you. How does.

that video support the prosecution's. theory any more than it supports the. defense that they're in the middle of a. match and the hands are going down there. for a different matter? >> the girl's claim because it shows the. other wrestler's hand. in the crotch area, which is which is. how you achieve the sexual assault. >> Is this also how you do a half Nelson? I. mean, >> Does anybody have a problem with the. fact that. >> the defense can say at trial, but the. jury can convict based on this. >> Phil, they coined a phrase, they called. it checking the oil. That's a term of.

art in this sport. Are you. kidding me right now? Like what would. have happened if this female wrestler. grabbed this boy's penis and bent it in. half? What is that called? Breaking the. penis? I mean, what is it called? Like. how do you have a term of called. checking the oil and and then not. believe this girl when she claims that. they're. >> I hope you're not asking me that. question because I didn't come up with. that term of [laughter] art. I've never. heard of such. I think it's a crime. >> Hey hey Don, hey Don, would you Don, would you invest your.

entire 401K, your entire retirement that. this actually was penetration versus the. hand being there and him trying to. achieve a wrestling move and she. believes or made up that the hand went. into her versus was just there trying to. achieve a wrestling move. I know the. answer to that. None of you do. >> Why would she Well, nobody's going to. bet their 401K on anybody else's DICK. SO, WHY WOULD SHE? >> TO TALK ON AIR, but not put your money. where your. >> No, but it doesn't improve anything. She. wasn't getting better retirement. >> You too, Megan.

>> You go, John. >> Put up your money. Come on. >> Well, I Look, this is you trying to. climb out of the hole of Maybe she. didn't know whether the fingers were in. the coochie. Ladies who are out there, >> I didn't say. >> have you ever not known whether the. fingers were in the coochie? I think. we've all known as You You have the. right to opine on this, Iglarsch. There's no coochie at whatsoever in the. Iglarsch. >> me in that suit. >> This may be the strangest four box I've. ever found myself [laughter] in on any. program ever. >> Bending the dipstick. That's what we're.

going to call it. Bending the dipstick. >> [laughter]. >> Bender Bender. Yes, bending the dip the. whatever any any one of those works. Well, I think we're in agreement that. the DA is doing the right thing in going. after these mandatory reporters who did. not do the mandatory reporting, and we. are in disagreement on this ridiculous. prosecution memo about why he didn't go. forward. But, I do agree with you, Iglarsch, that having said all that, I don't know. what the credibility of Cali is. That's.

That is something that needs to be. evaluated. It It is possible she was. just losing the match and made something. up. I don't mean to impugn her. I'm just. saying I'm open-minded to that. I'd like. to hear the actual substantive defense. as opposed to Yeah, this happens all the. time in wrestling. Oil change, oil. change. No, mhm. I I don't believe it. I. don't believe it. Sounds like woke. prosecutors to me. All right. Now, Phil I think has to go. If not, Phil, stick around cuz I do want. to get to Perez Hilton and one other. case um. on the [music] on the back side of this. So, we're going to hold over into the. next hour for just a bit. Phil, if you.

do have to go, thanks for being here. When it comes to supplements, there are. two things that matter. That it works. and that you can trust it. Rather than. just tell you about Relief Factor, we. often bring you what their real. customers have to say. Like me, I have. to say great things about Relief Factor. cuz it's helped me repeatedly. One customer, Jim, said he ran out of. Relief Factor twice and both times his. aches, stiffness, and pain came back. Once he restarted it, he says he felt. better again. As Jim puts it, quote, "You know. something's working when you run out of.

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every Wednesday on the MK True Crime. podcast feed and YouTube channel. You. can see why I love them so much. Mark. Eiglarsh always likes to mix mix it up. and keeps things interesting and John. takes no from anyone. >> not here to kiss your ass. Come on, let's go. >> Mark, I was telling Steve Krakauer. during the break on one of our early. Kelly's Courts back in the day and there. was some case involving someone. having relieved himself in the most vile. of ways publicly and we were going back.

and forth and and your opponent said. there was no duty to warn and you said, [laughter] "Oh, there was a duty.". >> I I I would agree that it sounds like. something I would say. Yeah, still to. this day. >> Nine out of the 10 Nine out of the 10. ones we did were about strippers who. inadvertently. >> something. >> injured someone. >> Money grabs. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter]. >> Now we're on to much more serious. matters. Um okay, and that brings me to Perez. Hilton. I don't this the video was so.

disturbing. I don't know if you guys saw. it. I wasn't on TikTok when I saw it. I. was on X and it like clips of it were. being recirculated. It was this time. last week where Perez Hilton appears to. have engaged in some sort of attempt at. self-harm. Can't say it more definitively than that. because. what I saw was somebody who appeared to. be covered in blood. I didn't see actual. cuts, but I'm sure I mean, I believe. that he had harmed himself in some way. And he was. looked bloody. and um was threatening suicide and then.

the professionals arrived. They said. that they were not. barging in because they didn't want to. provoke him, but eventually like. negotiated him to a place where they. were able to take him to the hospital. And he's been in the hospital. His His. family came out with a statement saying. he needs surgery, though they didn't say. what that's for. And now we get word that his mother, he's a single dad, he had these three. kids who are all very young via. surrogate. There's no mother in the. picture. He's a gay man.

Um his mother now wants custody of the. three kids. But the reason I'm bringing. it to you guys is there is a real. question now circulating in legal. circles and by some online who witnessed. the video about whether there might be a. lawsuit against Tik Tok. Because what. happened was it's sort of bizarre. They. the Tik Tok automated system flagged. Perez Hilton's stream within minutes and.

even removed subsequent streams, reports. The Guardian. But then a Tik Tok spokesperson told. Deadline that a quote moderator error. caused a delay in shutting down the live. stream after the automated moderation. systems flagged it for removal. And. therefore it was on the air. live for some 15 minutes, which is a. long time. I mean, I I was watching just. the clips over on X, which had grabbed. virtually all of it, thinking, how did.

this air? Like. Like on YouTube we can't air. like a a public shooting or you know, violence without it getting stricken. like immediately. How how could it air on TikTok? And this. is apparently how some for some reason a. human being seems to have overruled the. moderated the automated moderation and. that's how it went out. So you know, Mark there's got to be some host of. lawyers out there. rubbing their hands together cuz TikTok.

is very very successful. A lot a lot of. money. Deep pockets saying. you might be immunized against random. things like if somebody says something. on TikTok that's not true, you can't get. sued for defamation. But you did. something yourself here. >> Yeah. >> that could potentially make you my. target. >> argument is you've got a defective. product, right? And first it's amazing. that this aired. People are so worried. when they're speaking on these platforms. to not even like say the S word. They.

say unalive himself. You know, at first. I was like why are they using that? Oh, I get it. So it's one thing to police. content, you know, people do live. streams all the time and it would be. impossible to impose that burden on any. of these companies to immediately stop. what they're saying. But if they have a defective product. that allows this not only to go out, but. then to hit all these people whose. algorithm attracts this type of stuff.

But the problem is even if for some. reason you can successfully sue. what are the damages? The people who are attracting this type. of stuff because of their algorithm, I'm. getting fishing, you know, shows. I'm. getting cute puppies, right? So I'm not. getting this stuff. The people. >> hair tricks. >> All that. >> Yeah, wardrobe shoes and and and purses. >> stuff. >> Right? And wine. So that's Jonna, right? The people who are tracking this stuff, my guess is they've seen some things.

Their skin's a little thicker, and it's. going to be tougher to prove damages. >> I want to make one complaint. The hair. videos that I am getting are so cute, and I I've never tried a single one of. them. I just look at other They make the. cutest ponytails look so easy, but I've. actually never tried a single one of. them. I'm if I'm honest, but I enjoy. watching them and thinking someday, someday. So, Jonna, mhm. I guess the the cause of action. you could potentially filed what? Like a. class action for intentional infliction?

I mean, if you want to do negligent. infliction of emotional distress, typically courts require some bit of. physical injury that goes with it. You. can't just have pure emotional damages. There's not going to be any physical. injury. So, you've got to go you've got to go. intentional infliction, and if there was. an actual human making an actual. decision to override the automation, and. that's a big if, you know, the Guardians. reporting possibly. Maybe you're getting there, or you're at. least getting to the point where a. company like TikTok might settle.

>> Yeah, I'm with Mark when I can't really. figure out what the damages would be if. there is a bridge to some sort of legal. liability, but I do think this is. something that perhaps there are going. to be class action lawyers who want. TikTok to be punished. We've seen that. before with social media companies where. they have to pay millions and millions. of dollars. We won't see it, but it's a. way to make sure that they don't create. this same situation in the future. And I. got to say, I would be exploring if I. were the government whether that human.

error was in fact intentional because 15. minutes is a lifetime. And how, you know, these algorithms and. all the extra stuff they have going on. behind the scenes, which is just so. amazing, how did one human. override that for such a long period of. time if there wasn't some sort of. disgusting gross intent there. So, there's there's some legal stuff that is. going to fly. I just don't know if we're. going to get the benefit of it, but. something seriously went wrong.

>> sure what Jonna just said. Is she. alleging that someone from TikTok. cuz that's that's the only way you get a. lawsuit here. Someone from TikTok had. some nefarious objective and overrode. their system to allow people to be. exposed for 15 minutes. If you can prove. that, you're really in business. >> a little fantasy. I don't know if. >> That's where I would That's where I. would be locking. That's where I would. be locking. Yeah. >> Someone from TikTok so a representative. of the company, which is what you'd. need, I think, somehow said, "This is.

going to be my. prize to the public, 15 minutes of his. >> I don't see I don't see that coming in. And I don't see TikTok actually paying. any. >> Are you going to bet your 401k that. that's not going to come [laughter]. >> Why do you bring money into it, Jonna? What's the matter with you? >> There's no case. Okay, I want to keep going because the. the aspect of the mother and his sister, too, um [clears throat]. reportedly getting ready to seek custody. of the children, and I will tell you up. front I've only seen this in In Touch. magazine, which. I've seen many many things about myself.

that are untrue in that magazine. So, just take it with a grain of salt. Um. they're reporting that his mother and. sister will seek custody of his three. children. amid his mental health crisis. His kids. are 13, 11, and 8. And I wonder whether you think this will. be granted. Whether this if this is. true, does this have any chance of. getting granted because. I'm going to show you the video of. Perez. We've blurred it. Um but let's just put it on the board. Viewer warning, you will see. what looks like a red man cuz he's.

covered in blood. But we've blurred it. Um. And he's sort of making noises that are. almost akin to like sexual pleasure, like, you know, like groans, positive. groans as he appears to cut himself with. a long blade. Yeah, it's dark and the. reports are that his children left the. house. shortly before this happened. I don't. know that he sent them away, that he. that he told his mother to take them or. what happened, but they weren't in the. home. It would be much easier, I think,

to get those kids if he if they were in. the home. But obviously the guy's had serious. depression for a long time. He's on. record as as saying that. And. I just wonder what you think the chances. are that a court, because of this, where. he says on on the tape that he's. thinking about killing himself, um would say, "You're You're not in any. condition to raise these children and um. your kids are going into the custody of. your mother and sister.". >> Well, I think 100%, right now he he. shouldn't be near any children,

especially his own. Um and I feel for him. He's clearly got. mental illness and I think it's in the. best interest of the kids, which is the. standard, to be with family members who. love them and would look after them. And. I think that his mother is probably the. strongest choice. >> Well, temporarily, though, right? Not. permanently, Jonna? >> Yeah, temporarily, for sure, until he. gets help, until he gets better, until. he proves to a family court that he is. no longer a threat to himself or others. and that they can reunite the family.

But that temporary order can be quite a. long time in a case like this. >> should be. It should be a long time. >> Yeah, because that's clearly the case. >> I saw something. I saw something online last night and. I've said before that I said when this. broke last week that. I I have nothing but empathy for what. Perez may be going through here with a. mental health crisis and but I do think. this is the natural culmination of a. life on the internet in which your. business is. cruelty.

His business has been cruelty. I mean, he's just been uh slinging really. serious barbs and arrows at celebrities. >> What a great point. >> beginning of his career. It's It's not. I don't think there's anything redeeming. about what he does. Um. I also think, you know, it's you can do. it. It's America. Like we do have. stirrers who are out there and always. have. Um but I do think there are real. psychic prices to pay if that's how you. spend your time. And and it caught up. with Perez Hilton. That's my own view. But I thought this was interesting.

There's somebody who's in the business. of photography who says he knew Perez or. at least photographed him once and hung. out with him another time. He's a. photographer named Scott Michael Nathan. And I'm going to show you a little bit. of what he said and tell you about some. more. Watch this. >> Perez Hilton. People have been asking me. to weigh in on this guy and I was on the. fence. I worked with the guy. I. photographed Perez for the cover of a. magazine. I think it was TV Guide but. I'm not positive. And I can tell you from personal. experience he was a first-class a-hole. He wasn't misunderstood. He was not.

edgy. He was not a brave independent. journalist speaking truth to power. He. was a nasty, fat, mean, gay guy named. Mario Lavandeira. And I know exactly. what his brand was because I watched it. from the front row. His entire business. model was built on other people's. humiliations, celebrity addictions, their divorces, their breakdowns, their. bad photographs, their relationships, their bodies, their mistakes, their. worst effing moments. He drew dicks on.

the faces of minors. He turned other. people's pain into content and content. into millions of dollars. >> Wow, I don't want him I don't want him. eulogizing me. >> [laughter]. >> Well, there's no eulogy necessary. But. there's but he posits that he's not even. sure this is real. That this there's a possibility at least. that this is some sort of a stunt. >> Thought that as well. >> Possibly to attract attention. Now, the.

family saying he needed surgery. They're. they're saying they're relieved he can. speak somewhat. So, the family would. have to be going along with the whole. thing, and I just don't think that. that's what's happening. I think it's. real, but I can't rule out given the way. Perez has spent the past 15 years. that there might be some element of a. stunt. He's been in the business of. pitching reality shows, Donna, to. you know, network after network. They. haven't been getting picked up. Rob. Shuter was reporting this that like he. couldn't get anything, you know, um in.

writing. He couldn't cut any deals with. any of these reality TV show producers. You know, they kind of string him along. and then let him down. Whereas he has been on reality shows in. the past. And um I it did occur to me that. if any of that is true, it could be a defense to him. in a custody battle, right? Like. if if this were a stunt, that would be a great defense to the. custody battle. It would be a very. embarrassing chapter for him publicly.

And again, for the record, I don't think. it was a stunt, but what do you make of. it? >> Could have been a stunt, but I also. think we can't rely on what his parents. are saying, and here's why. His parents. are only going to know what he provides. Why? Because HIPAA isn't going to let. the parents have a straight line between. what's going on with him medically, physically, and what's actually going. on. So, that could be part of the stunt. He's telling stunt. He's telling the. parents, "Oh, yeah, I've got to get. surgery. I tried to cut my balls off.". Or whatever the hell he did off camera. that we couldn't see. But but we don't. know that that's true. And if it was a. stunt, I can also see a family court.

judge saying, "That is such a messed up. stunt that we still think you should be. uh divested of your children for a. period of time until we make sure that. you are wrapped as tight as you need to. be to be a good parent." I could see. that. >> Mhm. I That's a good point. You agree, Mark? >> Yeah, I'm glad you brought it up. I I. was one of the things I was thinking, like could this be a stunt, but I wasn't. going to articulate it, particularly cuz. it would be extremely painful if this. truly is what it looks like it is. But.

I'm glad you brought it up. I think it's. based upon what he's done in the past, what he's about, what he wants for the. future. I think it's relevant to throw. it into the discussion. >> Well, I'm sure we're going to get more. updates from this family. Um and I just. Like I don't I don't know. Can I. would I stake my retirement on the the. the [laughter]. Why you all got to make me laugh money? Being a stunt? No, I wouldn't. I There's very few. things in the news that I would stake my.

retirement on. I really thought that. James Talarico was going to go down in. flames in that Senate race down in Texas. and he still might, but that thing's. tighter than I ever predicted it would. be. And by the way, he's pulling ahead. of Ken Paxton. I realize he's got his. own problems. I'm just saying like not. all of my predictions come true, which. is sad for me, but life in the in the. fast lane. So so so it goes. All right, before I let you go, I want to ask you. one question about Nolan Wells in that. case. Um. You guys have been covering this. Yes, on Positively Legal, you know, like the. latest and how the Ben Crumb's and the. Al Sharpton's are really trying to tar.

these white kids who are friends with. Nolan with murder based on nothing. Based on nothing. Well, now uh Brandon. Tatum has interviewed a couple of. adults, including this lawyer, Edward. Patsik, who says the following, because let's. not forget the boat that they're really. zeroing in on, that the internet sleuths. say included a distress call saying. Nolan was dead at 4:30 that afternoon. So they say it it there was a murder.

allegedly and it went down by 4:30 and. you can hear the boys allegedly, if you. really garble the language or play the. tape backward, you can hear the. confession that by 4:30 to Nolan's dead. and they're not really recognizing that. the C-Tow company they're calling has. already got them on tape and you can. hear their exclamations in the. background. None of this is verified. I. don't believe one word of it. Um but. here is lawyer Edward Patsik to Officer. Brandon Tatum changing the timeline. considerably on when Nolan was last seen. alive, sought 16.

>> Morgan, Warren, and Jax left the island. at about 4:30 p.m. That's it. They were gone. That is not open for debate. So, that's. a fact. They were gone. And at that time, Nolan. Wells was still alive. Now, I'm not. going to name them out of respect for. their privacy, but just as one example, there are two very fine, upstanding. members of the Ocean Springs community.

who saw Nolan Wells at about 10 minutes. to 6:00 p.m. So, about an hour and a half after these. fine young men had left the island, they. were gone, departed. Nolan Wells was. alive. And these two witnesses, two very. reliable, very credible, and very. upstanding members of the community, they saw Nolan. And they've known Nolan for years.

There's no chance that they made a. mistake. And by the way, this can be corroborated. through other evidence, other eyewitness. accounts. And that's the end of it right there. >> And I reported the first hour, I have. reason to believe the same. I've I've. come by similar information about two. independent adult witnesses who knew. Nolan who can place him on the island as. as late as 10:00 of 6:00 that night, long after these boys had left the.

island and long after they're allegedly. on tape confessing that he was dead, which is just an interset in an internet. interpretation of some tape. that is garbled and indecipherable where. they called the C-Tow for a tow. Channa, what do you make of it? >> Uh well, I mean, it adds to the intrigue. of this case along with some other. things that I still can't wrap my mind. around either, which is why we don't. have Nolan's phone. Because the mother. apparently won't turn that over, which.

is isn't that going to be a huge piece. of evidence here? I mean, this is a. mystery. This is truly a mystery. >> She's going to have to. >> They're going to get it one way or. another. And then you have to make sure. Now, I know that you can't fully destroy. things, you know, they're they're stored. in the cloud, thank thankfully, but what. if your son is dead and you don't really. know what. Wouldn't you want to hand over. everything you possibly could to get to. the bottom of it? Like there's so much. mystery surrounding this and everybody's. quick to point the fingers at the other. two boys, but there are a lot of.

unanswered questions and they don't seem. to be getting answered anytime soon. >> It does concern me if she has that phone. and is not releasing it. And that's what. Sarah Fields is reporting. Um not it's. not confirmed by the family as far as I. know. Um why wouldn't she want the authorities. to have Nolan's phone so that a full. forensic analysis of it and what has. happened on it both prior to Nolan's. death and after could be conducted?

That's one question mark and the other. question is. how critical these two witnesses who can. place Nolan on the island at almost 6:00. p.m. will be to the investigators trying. to figure out what happened. >> I shall start with question number one. Um I I do believe that uh well, first of. all, I. I want to start with, you know, they. said that he drowned after staying. behind on the island with some girl that. he found attractive. There was a strong. current. I've yet to hear why that's not. the case. I I I missed that whole thing,

you know? Did Did anybody, you Megan, Jonna, hear of anything that says that. it's inconsistent with that? I. Nothing stood up on my back of the neck. when I heard that story. I'm like, okay, no, he wouldn't leave his friends. behind. He wouldn't go He's a teenager. There's a girl giving him some. attention. girl. He hangs with her. He. jumps in the water, strong current, he. dies. That absolutely could happen. I. don't know how we make it about race. All right, back to your questions. The. first one was I think number two I. remember was the time. Yeah, that's.

extraordinary. Stop blaming these damn. kids. They weren't even there. They left. them behind cuz the kid wanted to stay. behind and then that's it. And the first. one was the phone, right? Yeah, look. Let me say this. I understand. either there's something that they don't. want law enforcement to see as it. relates to this. or what's extremely likely is. I wouldn't want anyone to have my kids'. phone. There's stuff on there even. unrelated to this that may make him look. a little less angelic and right now that.

kid to a certain, you know, group of. people in this community, you know, is. angelic. You don't want his his name to. be sullied by texts and things that. might be unrelated like people have on. their phone, you know, between friends. So. >> But Margaret, as a former prosecutor. >> I want it. >> You the prosecution's but they're going. to get it, aren't they? Like how can the. mother say I'm not giving it like I want. you to investigate this. I want you to. tell me everything that happened to my. son but no, you can't have his phone. They're going to get a subpoena. The. there's going to be a grand jury. proceeding happening very soon we think.

in September. >> and they should. >> to get a subpoena and they're going to. get that phone now. >> and check everything that allegedly was. deleted cuz nothing's ever deleted and. and see what what she didn't want you to. see. >> And they might get other people's. >> she deleted anything. >> Right? >> after after he turned up dead. Go ahead, John. >> When they get his phone, that's probably. going to lead them to get other people's. phones. So when they figure out who he. was last communicating with and what. what was being said. So I you know, it's. going to come out. It's going to come. out and I would want to know if I were. his parent how my kid died.

>> Why didn't he just drown? Why didn't he. just drown? Somebody answer me, please. Why didn't he just drown? >> Maybe he did. That's probably what. happened. >> But. >> That's probably I mean that's what I. think happened. Maybe there was alcohol. Or or some other substance that the. toxicology will show us what was in his. system. Right. And even a strong. swimmer, when there's a current this. this is known for having strong rips, especially if there's intoxication, can. drown and it can happen quickly. Sadly, it can happen really quickly. But one of.

my frustrations is, God forbid somebody actually did do. something to Nolan Wells. If somebody in. my mind and I have no idea whether this. is right it's not a nefarious thing if. somebody else is involved. It's like an. accidental thing, you know, like. somebody was negligent in not seeing. that he was going down or maybe somebody. gave him the alcohol or the drugs and. then didn't keep a good eye on him. Again, we don't have any confirmation. that he was drunk or on drugs. Just to I. mean, this is speculation.

If if that's what happened, then we're. focused on the wrong people because his. friends were long gone. You know, that. the obsessive need to tar these boys who. loved Nolan with his murder is really I. think keeping us focused on the entirely. wrong things and potentially entirely. wrong people. There is an investigation. to be had here. It's just what we've. learned so far is that it does not. revolve around the boys. who were his friends. It's fine to look. into them, but now we have and they have.

a very good, compelling, verifiable. story and the internet sleuth community. should move forward and keep keep going. if they must not you know, if they. insist on not leaving this in the hands. of law enforcement. >> You know what you know what I'd like to. hear you know I'd like to hear and I. don't think I'll ever get it is if Crump. and those with him. investigate this and then they learn the. following and they say the following if. this is the truth. You know what, we. thought it might have been a race issue,

it wasn't. He really did drown. You'll. never. I know. I know. I but but that would. give a little bit of credibility, you. know? Just a little bit of credibility. >> on that will never happen. >> I say same. Same [laughter]. actually. >> Oh. >> All right guys, great to see you both. Martin and. >> Yeah. >> Jana, you're wonderful. Everybody check. them out on Positively Legal. If you. just Google Positively Legal or MK True. Crime in your podcast search bar, you.

will find it. YouTube same. We are back tomorrow with Emily. Juschinsky. [music]. Looking forward to that. See you then.