LIES in Karmelo Anthony Case, Bombshell REVEALS Contents of Second Note in Nancy Guthrie Case

Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome. to The Megyn Kelly Show. We have major. developments today in the Nancy Guthrie. case as there are new reports about the. ransom notes. We'll have a full. breakdown later in the show. FYI, our. pal Howard Bloom broke some major news. on it on this whole thing. And now every. reporter is running around repeating his. news claiming that they broke it. It's. very annoying. Howard Bloom broke this. news, okay? It's not that hard to credit. somebody when they break something. And. for that matter, if you want to go back. a little further, someone on X who goes.

by Nerdy Addict actually was the first. person to break this news and we brought. it to you at the time. And remember we. had this whole discussion like we don't. know who this person is. They go by. Nerdy Addict, but we found them very. reliable in this case and here is their. reporting. Well, guess what? It panned. out. And now all these other reporters. are running around claiming it as their. own and it's not. It's not. Nerdy Addict. had it first, but in the sort of. mainstream press, Howard Bloom had a big. exclusive and no one's crediting him,

which is annoying. Okay, anyway. Uh. also, you will not believe who showed up. at former President Obama's new. presidential library opening. Think as radical as they come. We'll get. into it. And Kristi Noem's husband is. back in the headlines. Apparently, the. rehab did not work. But first, there is. more news today in the Carmelo Anthony. case. Yesterday, the Stand with Carmelo Coalition. announced that Carmelo had a new team of.

six lawyers who will be handling the. appeal of his murder conviction free of. charge. You remember he said he was. indigent, penniless, and he needed. court-appointed lawyers. Well, he got. free help that's not court-appointed. It's like a dream team of uh lawyers who. want to help uh people who aggrieved. racially from the sound of it. They. include people like Gary Bledsoe who. happens to be the president of the Texas. NAACP,

uh someone named Brooke Clouse, who. happens to be not only a lawyer, but. chief of staff to Benjamin Crump, who is. basically an Al Sharpton type, and Shawn. DarDia, whose claim to fame is getting a. hung jury for an alleged an alleged. Trend Aragua member charged with murder. Okay, so that's his new. legal team, uh and who thinks they're. going to be able to turn around this. just conviction. Good luck. Good luck.

Uh that organization writing in a press. release, quote, "Our responsibility is. to determine whether a legal error. occurred and to ensure that every issue. supported by the record is fully and. vigorously presented on appeal." That's. great. We've already had a full trial, and it was entirely uh supported, the. verdict that the jury came to. So, you. know, you're going to do what all. criminal defense do and try to appeal it. and try to find some scurrilous ground, arguing that he didn't get a fair trial. in one way, shape, or form, and he's. entitled to that appeal. It's not going.

to go anywhere. Um that's news, I think, to. Sunny Hostin over at The View, who knows better. She's a former federal. prosecutor. She knows very well what she. says here is total nonsense. Watch. >> You're supposed to have a a jury of your. peers, and you're not supposed to just. strike someone because they're black. >> Mhm. >> And um in this case, they they gave the. reasoning that they're educators, and.

this happened that these were high. school students, and this happened at a. school track meet, so they couldn't be. impartial because of that. I don't think. that's an appropriate reason. >> best ones, too. >> Yeah, I don't think it's an appropriate. reason to strike um black jurors, especially when it's a young black. teenager um on trial, and especially. when that particular area is made up of. 10% of of an African-American community. So, I don't think he got a jury of his. peers. So, I think on appeal there is a. a legitimate thing. legitimate reason.

>> I'm sorry, but that is. a blatant misstatement of the law, as. she knows. The Supreme Court has. specifically held that you have no right. to have individuals of your same race on. your jury. That's black letter law now. She knows. that. Why is she doing this? Why is she saying that? The same reason we have Jasmine Crockett. and these other race hustlers trying to. stir up racial hatred.

To try to suggest that you have some. sort of constitutional right if you're a. white person to an all white jury. Oh, great. Try arguing that to an appellate. court. Well, the same is true if you're. a black person. You're not entitled to. an all black jury or Hispanic entitled. to all Hispanic. What the F? You're not. even entitled to a partially black or. white jury. You're not entitled to any. racial makeup on your jury. You're just. entitled to a fair one. And they can't strike a juror because he. or she is black or white or old any of.

the protected categories, but you are. not entitled to have a jury that matches. the racial makeup of yourself or your. preference. All right. Now, there were no black. individuals on the 12 person jury that. tried the Austin Metcalfe Carmelo. Anthony case, but there were three. racial minorities including Asian and. Indian. and all of the 18 person jury like if. you if you include the alternates uh of. of of those six were minorities. Six.

It's also true that the judge allowed. the prosecution to strike three black. female jurors but they said this was due. to the women's potential bias as. educators, not due to their race. That's. the prosecution's only obligation or. whichever side is striking the juror. If. the other side says, you know, we want. to know why, you say, this is why, and. the judge will make a call. And. sometimes the judges do say, I don't buy. that. Uh but here, they said we're not. striking them due to race, we're. striking them because they're educators. and we don't want a bunch of teachers on.

this jury. This happened at a high. school. There would be all sorts of. reasons why you wouldn't want teachers. there. They think they know better, they. might know the potential, um. you know, witness list members. I've said before, I it. One of the things they always told us to. look out for before we tried cases was, you don't want a mini expert going in. there on your jury. So, you know, you're you're trying a. case about welding, you don't want an. expert welder on your jury. He's going. to think he knows better. You want the. jury to only accept the evidence you put.

in front of them, you and your. opposing counsel. So, you would not want. a bunch of educators because they'd have. their own thoughts about what the. traditions are at the track meets and, you know, how this particular thing was. likely to work based on their. experience. No. No, no, no. You haven't. been certified as an expert. You are. being called there to be a juror, an. impartial arbiter of facts. So, it makes. perfect sense to me that. either side might not want educators. sitting on the jury. And it made perfect. sense to this judge as well, who knew.

that under Supreme Court precedent, when. challenged, prosecutors must have a. neutral explanation for excluding a. juror that has nothing to do with race. That's all. And the judge in Carmelo Anthony's case, John Roach, absolutely believed that's what happened. here, as we just heard him espouse on. his interview with WFAA. >> Like I told you before, as long as I. follow the law, uh I sleep well at night. And I'm. telling you, I followed the law in that.

case. Uh did I know uh what the. perception was going to be? Sure. I I knew in the back of my mind what the. perception was going to be. But I'm not. here to satisfy perceptions, I'm not. here to satisfy agendas, I'm not here to. do any of those things. I'm here to. follow the law and I did it to a T and. I'm proud of that. Very proud of that. >> Look, this guy is no nonsense and that's. going to come back to help uh this. verdict and the prosecution which will. be fighting to sustain it on appeal.

Th- This is not some. who got placed on the bench for. politics. You can You can tell this guy. is a serious jurist. and he knew what he was doing. And this is not the first time, I'm. sure, he's had a defendant raise. complaints like this. Um but Sunny Hostin's complaints didn't. just stop with the jury, actually. She. She said she's still. not convinced that this the misleading. went on for 5 minutes, okay? I won't. subject you to the whole segment because. each there of The View weighed in.

I mean, truly, one is dumber than the. next. Sunny Hostin's not dumb. This is. willful misinformation on her part meant. to push a racial agenda that she has. that ABC has been allowing for far too. long. This is willful misinformation. All right, here she is trying to. convince the national audience at ABC. that Carmelo Anthony. did. act in self-defense. She's not convinced.

that the jury was right in finding. otherwise. Watch. >> I also think we have to look at. self-defense here because there seems to. be two systems of justice at play in. this country and there have been for a. very long time. I was part of the. system, so I understand that and I. believe that to be true. Um in this case, this young man, you. heard him say he put his hands on me and. I told him not to. This uh the kid that. that died and and I have I I have so. much empathy for for him and his.

family's loss. That kid was 200 lb. This. kid was 130 lb. And so and the other kid. was also taller than he than he is. He. was the only black kid under the tent, and he this the the the the victim here. had his twin brother with him, who was. also a very large person. If that If you. don't fear for your your life if you. weigh 130 lb, I weigh 130 lb facing. somebody that's 200 lb, I would be. terrified of that. So, I don't. understand why self-defense uh was.

rejected by this jury. >> He asked him. He dared him. to put his hands on him. Anthony dared Metcalfe. to put his hands on him. He wasn't. afraid. He was provoking him, you. dishonest. hack. He went in there and intentionally. provoked him.

One of the many reasons why self-defense. was not available to him. Why it did not fly. You cannot claim self-defense when you. provoked the action against yourself. You cannot taunt someone, beg someone to. lay hands on you, and then when they do. so, stab them in the heart and say, "Oh. gee, I was just defending myself." You. provoked it. The self-defense law understands that, and separately, the jury understands.

that. Austin's dad, Jeff Metcalfe, who was. gagged for the course of this trial, like everybody else, and not able to defend his son, the. murder victim, as he was being defamed. by people like Jasmine Crockett. Um he is on. a bit a a small media tour. He's not. looking for fame. He's looking to. rehabilitate his sweet son's image. Who He did nothing wrong, nothing.

And villains like Sunny Hostin are. trying to argue, "Oh, he's so. intimidating with his, you know, big. frame and to 130 You know what? You know. what you wouldn't do, Sunny? You're 130. lbs, good for you. I'm 120. You know. what I wouldn't do? I would not go up to. somebody who was 80 lbs more than I was. and say, "Do it. Lay hands on me. Do it.". I wouldn't do that. I would understand that there was a. chance that he might actually do that. And then, if I overreacted in response,

I could be heading away to jail for 35. years like Carmelo Anthony is. So, stop, all right? And by the way, no. absolutely no accounting made in her. little summary there for the fact that. this was not a woman. being attacked by two hulking football. players. This was one track meet. participant confronting another track. meet participant, provoking him, saying, "Go ahead. Lay hands on me.". And then, when he did so, as gently as.

gently enough that he didn't even knock. Carmelo into the guy next to him while. they were seated, he got a knife in the. heart. And she knows very well that all. self-defense, all self-defense, has to. be proportionate to the threat. You. cannot respond to a push. with a knife to the heart. That is. inherent in the law, which she knows. But back to Austin's father, Jeff. Metcalf. So, he's been trying. to get the truth out there about what.

actually happened here because it's just. the disinformation. I showed you that. reporter, Mimi, from The Breakfast Club, which is a popular show. Um I just got the dereliction of duty in. trying to actually confront in that. situation Carmelo Anthony's parents with. facts, gently, kindly. I understand they're suffering, too. You'd have to handle it gingerly, rather than just allow disinformation to. go out to all your listeners. How. irresponsible is that? So, Austin's dad is. on the Will Cain show yesterday.

and was asked to respond to Sunny. Hostin, and he did. Watch. >> A lot of big voices in the media. um have talked about this, said I don't. understand I could play a clip for you, which I'm not going to, of Sunny Hostin. on The View saying I don't understand. how this couldn't possibly be. self-defense. So, what is your judgment of all these. people in the media that have spoken on. the case? >> Well, they're just like anybody else. They don't know me. They don't know. Hunter Austin. They don't know Carmelo. They're looking for their 15 minutes of.

fame or their clickbait or their clicks. They're looking to monetize the death of. my son. I really wish they wouldn't speak about. at all because one, shh, if that woman. said that, she has no idea about the. facts of the case, but she wants to spew. her public opinion on a platform that. reaches millions of people every day. Do I have that platform? No, but today I. have a little bit platform to say what. I'd like. She is completely wrong. And if they want to take me and call me.

and ask me to be on The View with them, I would gladly fly Fly me up there and. let me talk to all of you. >> Oh, do it. I dare you. Do it. If those. women of The View have any spine. whatsoever, they'll do it. They'll take him up. This is a grieving. dad of an actual murder victim at 17. years old, and he's offering to come on. your show. and talk truth about what happened in. this case. Do it. If you have any heart or spine.

whatsoever. Joining me now with reaction is Victor. Davis Hanson. He's a senior fellow at. the Hoover Institution and author of the. forthcoming book, The. Counter-Revolution, [music]. The Fall and Rise of Donald Trump and. the MAGA movement. Don't miss a moment. Subscribe to this. show on YouTube and follow me on Insta, Facebook, and X. Our founders believed. that freedom was not just a word. It was. a way of life.

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800-4-relief. VDH, great to see you. >> This is infuriating, because as I said, Sunny Hostin, at least, she's the only. lawyer of the group, she knows better. So she's just defaulting. to her racial priors, which is. Achilles heel for her on every story. She sees everything through a racial. prism, even now the law. And it's. downright dangerous to. the disinformation campaign being.

unleashed on the American people right. now around this case. >> Yeah, it is. I mean, I think all of us. went to high school, and we went to. track meets and football games, and we. understood there were two different. sides, and sometimes there were tents. where parents would meet, but no one. no one went to those. um events with a knife. armed, concealed weapon in your. backpack, and then no one went to the. other side or to a group that he knew.

might be hostile or might feel that you. were on invited, and then when asked to. leave, would not leave, and then almost dared. people to force him to leave, and then. when somebody tapped him, took out a a. weapon, and stabbed it not in his shoulder, not. in his leg, but right through his heart, and killed him, and then left the scene, uh did not say I'm sorry or let's I. didn't mean to do it. Let's see if we. can stop the bleeding. Just left.

And then admitted to what he did to law. enforcement. So, it was a pretty. open-and-shut case. He went to the track meet armed, and he. you can make make the argument he. intended to use that or he wouldn't have. brought it if he got into a situation. which he created. So, it was pretty open-and-shut, but. I'm not even sure you There has been a. lot of different conflicted press. reports. Uh some say that he waited 160. I don't. know what he weighed, but the idea that.

um there was a a weight disparity. is not really applicable when you push. somebody and then you I mean when. somebody gently pushes you and then you. take out a weapon. The other thing I. never understood, they kept saying it it. was just a knife. It was just a knife. It wasn't I heard that for about 2. weeks. It was just a small pocket. It. doesn't really matter, and it's not a. murder weapon. You have rock can be a. murder weapon. A. a piece of stick can be a murder weapon. Doesn't really matter that it was a. knife and not a gun or it was this the.

blade was this long or not that long. I. don't So, they've tried every single. every single ruse because they can't. confront the reality that there's two. young men. One person is not where he's. supposed to be. He's gently asked to. leave. He does not want to leave. He. wants to make a point. And he came with. a weapon. And so. I don't know what else to say other than. it's a larger commentary on racial. relations. Ever since the Obama years, I. think the idea was we were very.

optimistic that race was becoming. incidental, not essential to who we all. are. And now it just seems to me with. the. when a affirmative action morphed into. diversity, equity, and inclusion, and. then the George Floyd, and then. it was just. a focus, a fixation, addiction to racial. racial disparities. And then it was. statue topping and name uh toppling and. name changing and get rid of the SAT, and equality of result call it, and we.

became obsessed with it. And I think. what happened, people got the wrong. impression that this was going to be the. norm. And then when. we had a change of administrations, people, whether it was DEI in the. Defense Department or. the Ivy League and Stanford and other. universities reinstating the SAT and. coming to their senses, then everybody. got very angry in the DEI DEI community. Well, we we were in control. We had we. reinvented America. Now you're doing. this to us. So it just further exacerbated. And I.

don't think it's going to lessen until. everybody, according to their station, just says race is incidental to me. I. don't care what you call me. Call me any. name you want, but I don't really. particularly care about race. I'm just. going to treat people equally. And if. you can't, then you're the racist. And I think. I I feel a change in the country on all. these issues. The the trans issue, the DEI issue, the border issue, that. everybody and they're looking at Europe,

too. And they're just saying this is not. sustainable in a democracy to have a. return to tribalism and tribal. chauvinism. It's a pre-civilizational. idea and it's not compatible. historically with consensual government. It. you know. the historian Thucydides tries to. explain why you had Greek city-states. and why they are so sophisticated and. one thing he says is before these. emerge, people identified by their. tribal affiliations and they were. migratory. And what he's trying to say.

is that when you identify by your ethnic. clan or your superficial appearance, you can't do it. Reminds me when I was. in Libya not. and I asked somebody, you're the fifth. wealthiest oil producer in the world, why are the roads full of potholes? Why. is everything so decrepit? And my. Soviet-era minder turned to me and he. said, Mr. Hanson, we hire our first. cousin. We hire our first cousin over anybody. else. End of story. And he was a Libyan.

official. What he was saying is that we. still for all of our communism were. ethnically tribal and that's the bane of. civilization and here we see it coming. back again and again, but I think this. time Sunny Hostin doesn't realize that. there is a lot of people that are. fatigued with it all. And I hope that. they understand that because I don't. think we're going to go back to. that aberration after George Floyd for. four or five years. I just don't think. it's going to happen.

>> Well, it's so maddening, Victor, because. the way they're talking about this case. is as if Austin Metcalfe stabbed and. killed Carmelo Anthony. You think Sunny. Hostin would be out there arguing it was. self-defense if this exact scenario went. down, exact scenario, but reverse the. races of Anthony and Metcalfe. Zero. chance. There would have been riots on. the street about this case from the. moment it happened and at this trial. there would have been protest outside to.

make sure the jury came to a guilty. verdict. There would have been. celebrations when the guilty verdict was. read. There would be absolutely no. empathy for the killer because he's. white and he killed the black, you know, young boy. That's what they would be. saying. But because, simply because. Austin Metcalfe was lighter-skinned than. Carmelo Anthony, they've changed the entire narrative to. make him a villain, not the victim, and to make Carmelo Anthony into this.

poor, sweet child who just felt. threatened by the very large football. player whom he clearly provoked and whom. he stabbed in the heart, taking his life. instantly and giving him zero chance to. fight for his own life, Victor. >> I think also there's a larger context. and when I meant the word fatigue, when the Jussie Smollett farce, I. remember Kamala Harris said this is a. modern-day lynching. And then we had the Ferguson situation,

hands up, don't shoot. That was a. complete lie. That was demonstrably. untrue as Eric Holder's DOJ proved. >> Sunny Hostin was part of that. She was. part of that. She was on the set at CNN. with her little hands up and her little. fake sign. >> I remember that. And then Trayvon Martin. was not a a diminutive little teen. He. was out looking for trouble and he hit. George Zimmerman and that was a one one. against the other and he was. hitting him in the head and they even.

photoshopped the police file later and. they. I think CNN doctored the 911 call. And so and then we had the Duke lacrosse. and then we had going way back to Tawana. Brawley. But my point is that they have. a predictable pattern. Even the more. most controversial George Floyd, it was. very clear whatever officer Shalman did. at the very. instant that this thing hit the news. that you could not say the father and. you could not say that he was a prison.

convict. He had a long rap sheet. He had. engaged in a home invasion where one of. his friends had put a knife to someone's. a young woman who was defenseless. to her abdomen. You could not say that. he was in the process of allegedly and I. think convincingly passing counterfeit. currency. You couldn't say that if he. wasn't on fentanyl, if he didn't resist. arrest, if he had just got in the car as. he was asked, none of this would have.

That was all taboo. And then we had all of this misdirection. that blacks are inordinately killed by. unarmed blacks far disproportionate to. their, you know, the arrest. And we had. the Washington Post come out and say, "Actually, of all the people, 11 million. people who were arrested, there is no difference in. racial proportions of those who are. unarmed who are shot by police." But I. guess what I'm trying to say is that the. media, the whole race industry, they've.

done it so many times it's like crying. wolf. And it's sad because there may be. some case where the circumstances are. different, but they don't understand the. effect that they're having on the. general population. And I don't I don't. confine it, Megan, to the white. population. I live in a community that's. 95% Hispanic. And I can tell you that on. every one of these issues, they are. tired of it. They are tired of it. As. one person said to me not too long ago, "Why are these wealthy white people.

attacking the ICE? Do you know, Victor, that 45% of ICE officers are. Mexican-American and they're middle. class and they're just trying to protect. their communities from being overrun by. illegals who were in large number are. criminal.". So, what I'm getting at is that the. whole fixation on. um. race and illegal immigration, crime, all. of these issues. uh they're not sustainable and people,

you know, they're. the Democrat just to get final The. Democrats should run away with these. midterms. They always do. 38 out of the. last 41 midterm, the in party in that. White House loses seats. And I don't know whether I don't know. what it is, but their popularity is. going down, down, down, down, the. Democrats, and it's because of the. candidates that they are nominating that. resonate these issues we're talking. about. And a Graham Platner or a Tel.

Rico, and I don't think there's a. constituency for it. I really don't. I. think people are really angry and. they're not talking about it because. they understand that it's it's career. ending or it's dangerous or you get. social pressure, but there is uh. it's not over with, the anger about. what's happening in the country. It's. not just Trump Trump it's still there, and people are saying We're not You look. at that picture of the European It's. kind of a worthless parliament. It. doesn't have much power, but when you. saw.

two to one vote to end illegal. immigration, and people were actually in. Europe got up and said, "Send them. back." Whether you agree with that or. not, that's that's incredible for for. Europe. And you can see these parties You can. see in in the Western Hemisphere. conservative victories in Colombia, in. Ecuador, Peru. Chile, Argen- That whole leftist. paradigm. that we really exported all over the. world. uh the DEI was born here, and that whole.

idea, whether it was through USAID or. whether it was our popular culture, it. doesn't work in a consensual society. It. just pits people against each other in a. tribal fashion, and it's a collectivism. Everybody belongs to a collective. There's no individuality. And I think the universities I work on a. campus and you should hear Megan the. professors off the record off the. record. They're all left wing and they. all say after we got rid of the SAT. after George Floyd I can't teach my. classes.

because I have to either reduce the. workload or have to introduce new gut. courses or I have to do what I did 80%. A's and that's the biggest problem right. now at Yale Harvard 80% A's and you say. why are you doing that? And they say. privately I don't want to be. statistically accused of being a racist. and when particular people. don't get the grade. that they like and they have they show a. pattern of being in to a particular. group. And so it's affected everything.

it's permeated the entire society but it. didn't have the effect the architects. wanted it's creating. a backlash. And. >> Yeah. >> And. >> Well now and now they'll complain about. the backlash. I mean Sunny Sunny Hostin. lives in a mansion. She posted pictures. of it herself publicly so that's how we. know it's spectacular. She makes. millions of dollars a year. She talks. about how her son when he started. running through the neighborhood like he. was training for track I think. She she.

mentioned yesterday that he was on the. track team and she went to the local. police station to say that's my boy that. black boy is my boy don't you arrest him. for running while black because I'm sure. in her very tony Westchester Village. that they arrest all black people who. are running you know people who who are. related to Sunny Hostin sure sure they. do. She's not grateful to a country that. helped her son that that allowed her son. to go to Harvard we're still all racist.

all the jury is in Texas of course the. white people they're going to be racist. that's why you have to have blacks and. it's not just universities doing this or. media. The the you told reminded me. when my daughter was in uh I guess it. was fourth grade, that's when. the Chauvin trial was happening. And. this is we were still in the city in our. woke private schools. And her teachers made the class read a.

Newsela article about the verdict. against Derek Chauvin. >> [clears throat]. >> It was like a one-page article. So, they. did all those fourth-grade girls read. the article. And then the two teachers. said, you know, have like the main and. then the assistant, let's talk about it. And the first girl raised her hand and. said, um. Oh, no, first the teacher said, "There. is a major problem in this country, massive problem with. cops killing black men.". Okay, so that's the premise to start the.

discussion. So, one girl raised her hand. and said, "Um. wasn't he resisting arrest?". And the teacher said, "They always say. that to defend their actions." Like. these evil white cops. And then then my daughter raised her. hand and said, "Wasn't he on a lot of drugs at the. time?". And the second teacher said, "This. conversation is making me very. uncomfortable, and I am shutting it down. right now.". >> Of course. Yeah. >> Disallowed.

the discussion amongst a bunch of. nine-year-old girls who had been. assigned. this article. This is The girls weren't. watching Fox News. They were reading. what the teachers gave them. It was in. the article, and the girls had some very. good questions about the complications. of that case, which stood out to even. nine-year-old girls immediately. And. rather than allowing them to flesh it. out, it was shut down as verboten. I. mean, that in a nutshell is what was.

wrong with those schools, and what is. wrong with universities today, and what. leads to a person like Sunny Hostin. being allowed a national perch. notwithstanding her racial blindness. >> I I think everybody I think you're. right. I think people got to realize. this is not a a grassroots phenomenon. among poor blacks or middle-class. blacks. This is a top-down media. academics. professors K-12 who create these. ideologies and then it filters down. So.

Kamala Anthony all he knows is. that if he goes to those that track meet. and he has a knife and he goes where. he's not supposed to be and he gets in. an altercation the larger discourse is. going to allow him to make an argument. or he won't be held accountable. In. other words, DEI takes away all deterrent fears. It. just says whatever happens to you, you're going to play this race card and. you're going to get an exception and we.

and you they think that because it's all. over. the popular media and. >> And and Victor if I forgive the. interruption, but it also teaches racial. grievance in the first place. >> does. It it teaches it at the very. beginning and it teaches it all through. the university. And you know, it's it's. one reason why people say why are these. why are the universities in such. failures and it's an act of commission. and omission. They teach so much of this.

pop psychology racial stuff dash studies. courses that these kids come out. ignorant and arrogant and they don't. really have skills especially in the. social sciences and the humanities, but. they have these ideologies that have. been drummed into them. And then they re. they reach the real world and in real. world you don't go across. into a an opposing team's private tent. and you don't dare somebody who's bigger. than you and you don't come armed, but.

that's what you would do if you filtered. down this message from elites. That's. why I mentioned the ice. All these very. wealthy and I see it all when I go to. work in Palo Alto or Menlo Park, you see. all these signs and protests about. immigrant They're all very, very wealthy. people. And not too long ago I saw one. and when I was walking on campus and I. said to her, "You should come to where I. live." And I live 1/4 mile from. Sureno's, Norteño's and 13 people. And.

most of them are not here legally. And. you should see what happens when that. when that occurs. You should try to go. to a public social welfare um. dialysis clinic or an ER and what. happens to a poor Mexican-American. citizen when all of a sudden it's. flooded with people who speak Mixteca. Baja, a language that's not even. Spanish, in their communities. And they. don't have the resources. But this. ideology from very wealthy, privileged.

people has done so much harm. And that's. what the real issue is. So all those. people on the view are. multimillionaires. And they talk as if they're socialists. on the barricades. But they're never. subject to the consequences of their own. ideology. None of them. They talk about. crime and then this But they all have. security and they all have enough money. they're not worried about California. taxes or They're all and I think people. in the West are seeing that it's a. phenomenon that's. that can't go on because if it goes on,

the system that we you know, we live in. a private property, market capitalism, consensual society that's pluralistic. And if you attack that. long enough and you try to to undermine. it, and history's not very forgiving. And I think all of us, whatever your. politics are right now, you think if I. identify by my tribal affinity. or my gender or my sexual orientation. and that's my primary identification.

then I'm anti-civilizational. I'm a retrograde tribalist and people. are going to have a legitimate objection. to what I'm doing. And I think that's where we are now as a. nation. We're getting We're saying that. this goes on we can't sustain ourselves. It's kind of like 1850 1850 people said. we tried to deal with slavery. um. you know, we had it in the Declaration. of Independence. Thomas Jefferson was. censored all men are created equally and.

then we said we can't deal with it and. you could see why because the 13. colonies would have split apart from. immediately. We put it off long enough. and this is not sustainable and they had. that 700,000 people killed. And I think. right now it's it's just a force. multiplier the blue state model this. whole therapeutic stuff the government. fraud but all of this emphasis on. tribalism and open borders and people. are saying this doesn't work. You people. if it's.

>> I have to say like I. I I I look at what's happening is cuz. this Carmelo Anthony trial and the. reaction to it has been so insane that. it's it's just a very stark reminder. that the left has not abandoned these. radical notions about the role race. plays in any and all aspects of society. and I it makes me so angry because. I I feel like. no one rioted when a 17-year-old black.

boy shoved a knife in the heart of a. 17-year-old white boy. No whites were. out there chanting white lives matter. and you know, saying the system is set. up against whites and so on and you. know, that there there has been a. massive. change in the bias. Try growing up a. white boy today. versus a black girl, all the advantages. are with the latter in today's day and. age when it comes to getting into. universities and getting jobs and so on. Nobody was raising that. People just.

said, "What happened in this case? Can we make sure this kid gets a fair. trial and that it's fair to the decedent. as well?" That's what happened. And and. then the jury came to its verdict. But. now there's this activist class that's. acting as though the races are reversed. and somehow white people did something. terrible to a black boy, and that's just. not what happened. Like that's the kind. of stuff that's going to radicalize. people. Like. >> It's not just that. >> Everyone behaved themselves. No one made. this racial. Don't make this racial cuz.

it doesn't end well for you race. agitators. >> And the same thing happened with the. Ukrainian the poor girl that was. murdered or throat cut on the subway. You saw this murderer eye her, then he. cut her throat. And then four five people. walked right over her as she was dying. They didn't lend any assistance, and. then it was disputed what he said, but I. listened to the tape dozens of times. It. seems like he said, "I got the bit blank. something whites." And nobody rioted.

Nobody said, "Wow, this African American just preyed. on this girl." What we heard was. from the media, "Oh, you have to be. socially aware. She was looking at her. She was fixated on her phone. She wasn't. aware of the circumstances in which she. was in." What were the circumstances. which she was in? She just wanted to. take a subway ride home. And if she was. attacked by somebody and there were five. people right behind him, wouldn't. somebody come to her aid? Maybe they.

could stop him or. you know, hold him for police, but they. just tiptoed around her. She died as she. bled out. It was horrific. And when you. add what was going on in Europe, you. know, with Henry Nowak and in Bristol, all of these things in the Western world. are building, building, building, building. And it's really important that. they get vented before people. feel frustrated and they have no avenues. of correction. So, I I think. >> Yeah. And it's important to remind. ourselves that these lunatics, Sunny.

Hostin does not speak for black people. >> No, she doesn't. >> Certainly, nor does Jasmine Crockett. I. mean, it's just it there she's just a. terrible representative. ABC. >> I I think so. I I I work at the Hoover. Institution and there's four. African-American people who were. associated with it. Thomas Sowell, Shelby Steele, Condi Rice, and Kiron. Skinner. And they were the best. the best scholars there. I mean, it has. nothing to do with black people. generically. It's a group of very well.

uh. very well-off, educated, supposedly. educated elites that are drumming this. up among the lower classes. And they're. using actually the fear the criminal. element. They're using that element uh. to divide us and then to get spoils from. society. And um I feel bad because the. people who are really warning us have. been black intellectuals on the. conservative side what was going on. Thomas Sowell was. he was life was threatened. We had to.

have a you know, all of his mail had to. be examined. But all those threats were. coming from uh people on the left. And. Shelby Steele was the same thing. And. >> No, he's amazing. And his son Eli's. awesome, too. >> Yeah. >> And not to mention Glenn Loury. Uh I. mean, there's just Jason Riley's. spectacular over the Wall Street Journal. on these issues. Like, there's just. there's a long list who they don't buy. into this nonsense. Normal normal people. who aren't in the media, too, don't buy. into this nonsense, black or white. But.

you're right, it's these elites, these. leftist elites. who are just spewing their bile and. trying to create race riots or just. hatred that they'll never have to deal. with. As you point out, with their. guards and in their mansions and their, you know, their fancy cars driven by. chauffeurs, they'll never have to deal. with. I want to keep going cuz there's. there's. >> I just would say one last thing. This is. not new. The people who were behind the. Bolshevik Revolution, Lenin and other. people, people who like Karl Marx, he was an. elite. Lenin was elite. The people who.

were behind the French Revolution, the. Jacobins, Robespierre, brother, they. were all elites. The people behind the. Spanish Revolution, they were the. anarchists and the communist, they were. all elites. It's always the way it is. It's a bunch of elite and the Mondami, look at him. He's he's an elite. His. parents are dow- endowed professor, a. subsidized filmmaker. He gives us. lectures about settler colonialism and. you think, "Wait a minute. You were from. the 1% population in Uganda that had 65%. of the economic output of that country.

and no one ever said that you were a. settler You came here to our country. What if we said you're a settler. colonialist, you and your family in the. Indian community? How would you like. that?" Then he says, "I'm going to go. after wider neighborhoods that are. affluent." Well, then if you should get. your data up all ethnic groups in the. United States, Indian Americans are the. most affluent. So, he should have said, "I'm going after Indian American. communities. They have too much money. statistically." But. So, what I'm getting at is when they.

This is an elite driven stuff. AOC, uh. Jasmine Crockett, uh even Ilhan Omar. Nobody ever says to. Ilhan Omar, "Is it true that your father. was a colonel in Barre Said's corrupt. government that orchestrated a genocide. and the most, not all, but many or if. not most of the refugees that came out. were from the Said government that was. overthrown for its crimes. uh in the Somali Somaliland wars?". Nobody ever says that. And maybe we.

shouldn't, but she sure does about other. people. She's always checking. everybody's background and all of these. oppressions and isms and ologies, but no. one ever says, "Well, wait a minute. The. United States welcomed in 85,000. refugees from Somalia and never asked. them to what degree are you involved. with this government that committed. genocide?". >> Well, and also didn't ask them about all. the massive fraud that they would. commit on us. I mean, that's the thing. is like we still let you come in if only.

you had not defrauded us, you probably. wouldn't be having the criminal troubles. you're having now, but you're not. allowed to come into our country and. fleece our people and commit crimes. All. right, wait, I want to keep going. Um I've got to talk to you about this, okay, cuz we're on the subject of elite. university people who are far left and. in control of the narratives that our. children learn at every level. And that. leads me to who is at Barack Obama's. >> [laughter]. >> presidential library opening. Um but. we've been covering this and I didn't. see this news until today.

In the third row, Bill Ayers and his wife Bernardine. Dohrn. They showed up at Barack Obama's. library opening. This is the terrorist. that is being referenced when people say. Barack Obama used to pal around with. terrorists. Bernardine Dohrn and Bill. Ayers who are partners, who. um were founders of the Weather. Underground back in the 1970s which was.

bombing federal buildings. For those of. you who are young and don't know about. this, I'm just going to give you a clip. from a. a documentary on the Weather Underground. and uh it's got a young Bill Ayers. in it, okay, here it is. Check it out. >> Terry more more than probably anyone. else represented the view that it was. too late for. any kind of reconciliation inside this.

country. >> [music]. >> and that uh the best that we could do. was to um. uh bring about uh a catastrophic series. of actions. >> They had decided to set off the bomb at. a non-commissioned officers dance at. Fort Dix. The idea being that. uh there are no innocent in in this war. of aggression. >> What we wanted to do here was.

deliver. the most horrific hit. that the United States government had. ever suffered on its territory. >> So, that man. one day when I was at Fox News would. stroll in. 2014. and. give me an interview. Bill Ayers, it was. a crazy it was like one of the craziest. moments of my life, Victor. We got him to Fox News. He came in.

through the belly of the beast. We'd. been ripping on him non-stop when Barack. Obama had run for president. Barack won. anyway and he agreed to do an interview. with me. It was insane. And [snorts] uh my assistant Abigail. Finan said I Somebody said, "What did. you do today?" She said, "I I babysat a. terrorist in the basement of the Fox. News building because we didn't want him. to flee. We didn't want him to realize, wait, what am I doing here? This is a. bad idea." So, he came on the show. It was a very challenging interview, but. very fascinating. And here's just a. little bit of it, okay? Just we got a.

quick sound sound bite. Watch. >> How many bombings are you responsible. for? >> Weather Underground I think took credit. for just slightly over 20. Might be. personally I've never talked about it. and never will. >> Let me just tell you what what I hear. when I hear that. I hear you saying. you sound like with respect to Osama bin. Laden. While underground you stole. you lied. you hid, right? Any disagreement? You. stole. >> Onward, yes. >> And and. You wrote about it in your book. >> We we stole ID. That's the. >> You stole purses. You stole wallets.

>> Yeah. >> Stole money. >> Some. >> You stole You ripped off dead babies'. identities. >> Right. >> And yet the violence continued. Just. because you went underground didn't mean. the violence stopped. >> What violence? >> March 1st, 1971, you bombed the US. Capitol. May 19th, 1972, you bombed the. Pentagon. January 29th, 1975, you bombed. the State Department. That's what I mean. by violence. What would it take to make. you bomb this country again? >> I can't completely say no, I would never. ever rise up in opposition in in a very. militant and serious way. I can't say I.

wouldn't. I doubt it. >> That's who went to Barack Obama's. library opening in the third row. He. wound up teaching at the University of. Illinois. His wife, who was just as. involved as he was in the Weather. Underground, teaching at Northwestern. Law School, Victor. Third row. Everything we've said about Barack Obama. was true. He's as radical as they come. He just presents as this moderate, avuncular kind of guy. >> does. And he says in his I mean, it was.

reported he wrote, if he did write the. whole thing, his memoir in Bill Ayers'. house. He said that. And then, what was. even. crazier was at that speech, I thought I. thought to myself, here they were He has. four mansions at the Chicago mansion, I. think it's almost worth 2 million, Kailua. Hawaii, Martha's Vineyard. They're worth. 70 to 100 million. And now, what are. they going to say? And the first thing, one of the first thing is he had to give. us a little spin on the Declaration of. Independence, that we were flawed.

>> Mhm. Still better. >> Yeah, he didn't understand anything that. that had been a big discussion, that. Jefferson said, "All men are created. equal, and we're going to try to mention. slavery, even though he was a slave. owner." And five Southerners, five five. of the 13 colonies were, you know, slave. owning. Not that there it was de facto. outlawed, although there was some in the. north, but they all said, "If we don't. If we try to eliminate slavery right. now, we won't have a union. The British. will win because they'll pick us off one.

by one.". And we're going to have to deal with. this issue, but let's just be united for. now. And that was always an issue, always. Every year they fought about it. And finally 700,000. But he All the. context is gone. He didn't mention any. of that. And then when Michelle got in, she said he was dazzling, brilliant, and. she listed three things. His Nobel. Prize, and then she said Obamacare, and. then all of the unity. And I thought, "That's all a lie. What are you going to. have in that. That 7 850 million-dollar flood tower?

What are you going to have inside? Where. are going You know, the accomplishments. or the legislation? I can't think of any. other than he tore us apart. Cuz wasn't. He wasn't. >> at the beginning? >> Yes, but remember the. beer summit. >> Divisive at the end and post-presidency. Stand by. Hold. I want to continue this, but we got to take a quick break. There. is more to do on this subject and more. We will be [music] right back. VDH. thankfully stays with us. Don't go away. Hey, thanks for watching today's full.

episode. If you're new here, throw us a. subscribe. See what you think. Stay in. touch. There's plenty more goodness. where this one came from. As always, we. really do value your feedback. So, email. me, too. Megan, m e g y n at. megankelly.com, or just leave a comment. down below. I do read them. I meander. over and I scroll through and I find. them very entertaining and really. appreciate the feedback. But in any. event, join the community by becoming a. subscriber so you miss nothing. We value. your support. We may not always agree on. positions, but as you know, I'm very. open-minded to people who disagree with.

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find a Byrna dealer partner near you. That's B Y R N A. dot com. >> 1980, you and Bernadine Dohrn. resurfaced. And when she turned herself. in, Bernadine Dohrn promised to spend. her energy organizing to defeat the. American empire. And within a year of that, October 20th, 1981, was a triple homicide. Kathy. Boudin learned that some of her learned. some of her very criminal tactics while. she was with her Weather Underground. She was in the townhouse that exploded. when that bomb went off, wasn't she?

You adopted her child. >> She's a wonderful person. >> Your wife, Bernadine Dohrn, was asked to. cooperate in that investigation and you. did, too. >> She refused. >> Absolutely. >> 7 months in jail because she refused to. help the police in their investigation. >> refused to speak to a grand jury. That's. quite different. >> Why would she do that, sir? Nine. children lost their father that day. >> I agree with you. >> your wife help? >> Grand juries are a terrible overreach of. the US government. >> She said about the Charles Manson. murders. >> Yes, but. >> pregnant woman and six others, quote,

"Offing those rich pigs with their own. forks and knives and then eating a meal. in the same room, far out. The. Weathermen dig Charles Manson.". This is your sweetheart? >> No, no, this. >> This is your soulmate? Your wife. miraculously got a job teaching law or. teaching at Northwestern University Law. School. >> successfully, absolutely. >> Which is amazing. They must be offering. classes in what what you can learn from. your future clients. But are you. surprised that that you got those job. offers, you and she? >> Not really. But I mean, I. >> She was on the FBI's 10 10 most wanted. list. >> I know. Um I So was Angela Davis. Um and.

you know, a lot of great people have. been on that list. But but. >> Okay. >> [laughter]. >> Welcome back to the Megyn Kelly show. I'm back with me now Victor Davis. Hanson. He's the author of the. forthcoming book, The. Counter-Revolution, The Fall and Rise of. Donald Trump and the MAGA movement. So, um here's just one more thing for you on. Bill Ayers, who was at Barack Obama's presidential. library opening along with his wife, Bernardine Dohrn, another domestic.

terrorist affiliated with the Weather. Underground, both of whom wound up in. academia. Uh Axios. is the one that's where I learned that. Ayers and Dohrn were at Obama's thing. You know, all Obama's presidency, his. campaign, he distanced himself, "Oh, no, I hardly knew him. What do you mean, Bill who? No, no, no. Fox News is crazy. saying I launched my campaign in his. living room." It was all true. That's why he's there as the bookend on. the on both ends of Barack Obama's. presidency. And uh here's how Axios, I. mean, today is trying to spin this this.

thing. Uh he They write, "In 1995, they, meaning uh Bill Ayers and Bernardine. Dohrn, held a casual party at their. house to introduce friends to a skinny. kid with a funny name named Barack. Obama. That was a quote. Uh. then they then they the Axios writes, "That was enough for Republican. operatives to seize upon when Obama ran. for president in 2008." They argued. Obama had ties to a man they described. as a former domestic terrorist. That's. 100% true. Even though the support came.

nearly 30 years after the Weather. Underground. You tell me, Victor, did he. sound apologetic and regretful in in. that interview as I just played to you, which he did? >> I couldn't believe he was smiling. >> years ago. >> He was smiling. He was smiling. It reminds me, Megan, you remember that. when Obama was trying to um. convince the country that he was a man. of faith and and mainstream, he said. that he was going to church at the. Trinity Church and the Sun-Times. interviewer asked him, "Well, you how. often do you go?" And he said, "I'm.

there every Sunday." And then as soon as. we got that clip from Reverend Wright, "Chickens coming home to roost.". Uh "No, no, God uh bless America. God. blank blank America." Then all of a. sudden he was wayward. I mean, he had. bragged that he was married, his kids. were baptized. So, his whole. his whole role was trying to disguise as. long to get elected. Remember the red we. are no red states, we are no blue state. 2004? And then as soon as he got in. there, we had the beer summit and all of.

that stuff. It just kept going on. Trayvon's a kid, the son that I never. had, looked like me, etc. etc. And now. he's done with it and he can feel. liberated again. And that's why he. invited them. And. again, Bill Ayers is a son, as I. remember, of very wealthy utility. executive. Raised uh. like Obama. Obama said he was, you know, lower middle class. He went to a prep. school. His His grandmother, who was a. very wonderful person, who paid for his.

education, was a worked her way up to be. a banking executive. He was of course she was rewarded by. being called a typical white person, but. that. he all of these people are elites. They. are either upper middle class or they're. very very wealthy. And um. it's not. the America's never had a mainstream. socialism. movement. I think the greatest vote. giver was Eugene Debs, right? In 1920. He ran for president five times as a. socialist. Finally they put him in jail.

and he got a million votes. That was it. So the people themselves have never. wanted to be. communist. And if Mondami and these new. socialists have support, I guarantee you. it's coming from people who went to. college and were imbued with all this. stuff, but it's not coming from. electricians or plumbers or any of those. people. >> Totally agree. Yeah, it's crazy to see. these clips come back and and to see. Axios trying to whitewash his history.

and to see Barack Obama give it up. He. gave it up. He's been denying the. relationship with this guy, downplaying. it for years. Third row, okay? Third row. We were. right all along. The Obamas lie. If. their lips are moving, they're lying. The only difference is nobody will call. them out on it in the mainstream media. Axios won't call them out, the others. won't call them out. They're they're so. too obsessed with orange man bad and. Trump's alleged lies. As Sean Hannity.

once put it to me, Trump's problem is. not that he lies, it's that he tells the. truth. >> [laughter]. >> I don't know why we're talking about. remember Reverend Wright was shut out. during the eight years and they asked. him, well, why haven't you seen Obama? And he said, "Them Jews don't let me see. him." That was a that's a direct literal. quote, but where I don't know what. happened to him. He had a very beautiful. home that he he had. It it all this race radical stuff. It's. all it's very cynical.

Bill Ayers is still privileged and they. they do a lot of damage, but as you. pointed out, it's the middle class, the. officers who were killed, their. children. They all That's the victims, always. >> Mhm. >> And uh. that's what's sad. When all of these. race hustlers gin up all this racial. animosity, then it's some black electrician that. then somebody comes up to him and said, "Well, Al Sharpton all. the it's it's an elite driven uh thing. and uh.

>> Or or the black pilot. You know, this is. the point Charlie Kirk was trying to. make. The black pilot who is 100%. qualified and out-hustled everybody else. to get this job, who gets a second. glance from somebody who's flying United. because they understand that airline has. a policy of requiring at least 50% DEI. hires or. it's not all black, but like women and. whatever, but like minority groups, alleged minority groups. That's the. point Charlie was making that so many on. the left use against him now to say he.

was a racist. He What he was saying, "I. don't like feeling that way. Get rid of. DEI, then we look at everybody in their. positions and know there's only one. reason they got there, skills, qualifications.". >> I I used to go for 15 years Thomas. Sowell and I had lunch twice a month and. he once said something really profound. It seemed obvious, but the way he put it. was very profound. He said, "I don't. as a matter of my own behavior, I don't. trust people that have not gone through. the meritocratic process." And I said, "Well, explain." He said, "You know,

when I was growing up in the 1950s, you could not if you were black, it was. very hard to get into medical school.". So, he said, "If you got through medical. school, you had to be 110%." And he. wasn't defending that. It should have been, you know, no edge. either way, but what he was saying is. there was an institutionalized bias. So, when he went to doctors, he deliberately. went to black doctors, not because he. was black, but because they had to be. superb. There was no, you know, old boys. network or preference. >> I love that. >> he said, "And then they reversed it.".

So, then they allowed you to have, I. think he said 250 points on the MCAT. advantage and all this. So, he said, "Now, I kind of. He was kind of laughing, but he was half. serious. He said, "I kind of go to Asian. Americans because. >> Yes. >> they're they're overrepresented and. they're always discriminated against and. you have to be the best of the best of. the best and I and he said it's never. proven me wrong." And what it was a it. was just That was his, you know, he. could just simplify things in truisms.

that were not truisms. They were really. profound. But, that. he had a good point. >> You're so lucky to have had that, Victor. I'm so jealous. That's amazing. >> was a wonderful person. He really was. So was Shelby Steele. They were my two. best friends at who were. >> Aw. >> They and they still are. Yeah. >> You have good taste. All right, wait, let's keep going. I've got another one. for you. Uh I don't want to exhaust you. cuz I know you're still recovering from. a very serious illness, but you look. great and you sound great. >> Um.

the person who tried to assassinate. Justice Cavana- Kavanaugh. >> Yes. >> Um. is has been given an 8-year prison. sentence. We knew this. That's kind of. old news. His name is Nicholas Roske. But, part of the reason why Nicholas only got. an 8-year sentence for trying to. assassinate sitting Supreme Court. Justice to stop him from ruling on the. Dobbs case, which overturned Roe v. Wade,

is that Nicholas is now Sophie. And the sentencing judge factored that. in to her decision. Her name is Judge. Deborah Boardman. She's a Biden appointee. And she specifically said, she's a. former public defender, and she. specifically said that she was taking. Roske's. oh-so-convenient, newfound transgender. status into account. Quote, "I take into. consideration the conditions of.

pre-trial confinement and the fact that. she. is a transgender woman, meaning a man, and will be sent to a male-only Bureau. of Prisons facility.". The judge questioned whether Roske would. receive adequate mental health treatment. in federal prison, saying, quote, "Let's not hide the fact. that there's an executive order on this. specific topic." She was annoyed that. Trump is making. prisons great again, with men staying. with the men and women staying with the.

women. So, to its credit, the DOJ did something. it rarely does on sentencing. It appealed. It appealed to the Fourth Circuit Court. of Appeals, saying, "This was such a downward. deviation from the federal sentencing. guidelines that it has to be taken up. Um that normally this person would have. gotten like a few decades in prison, and. because. he now says he's a she, he only gets 8.

years in prison? This is absolute. madness, and they're hashing it out.". They say it's, yeah, 22 years below the. bottom. of what the guidelines recommended for. this guy. So, the minimum sentence the. guidelines recommended was 30 years. This guy got eight. Now, the judge said, "Well, he turned himself in.". The prosecution said he did that because. he saw two marshals standing outside of. Justice Kavanaugh's house and knew that. he was about to get caught.

And this judge, of course, you're not. going to be surprised to hear federal. public defender, a former public. defender, didn't buy the prosecution's arguments. that, "Oh gee, what a good person. Uh he turned himself in." Oh, no. She. turned herself in. And this is This guy. was a man. when he did it. Like, they all suddenly. become female when they're facing. prison, but whatever. Um. And now, it also turns out that this is. a furry. He's a He's a furry in addition. to all of his other issues. Reports the Daily Wire.

And I think, uh, this is actually a. great a great move by the DOJ, even. though they're with the Fourth Circuit, which used to be more conservative, but. now has a bunch of libs on it. Um. they have to challenge this kind of. nonsense, do they not? >> Yeah, they do. And it's part of a larger. trend where the left has been at it When. I was growing up, there was the Warren. Court, and they loved they worshipped. the, um, Supreme Court. They said, "You. know what? The legislate The Senate and. the House are just retrograde, and we. thank God for the Warren Rehnquist uh.

court." Now, they despise it cuz it has. a conservative, but they they do things. that no one. on the right would ever do. I mean, part of this was Chuck Schumer going out. in front of the doors of the Supreme. Court while it was in session and. saying, "Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, you sowed. the wind, you're going to reap the. whirlwind. You don't know what's going. to hit you." A few months later, all. these people started showing up, and. that is I think a misdemeanor if not a. felony in some cases to show up and try.

to affect a Supreme Court case at a. justice's home, but nobody was indicted. for that at all. And then when you look at the way the. hearings have gone. with Clarence Thomas, that was just. abject character assassination. Kavanaugh, we know now the whole thing. was a joke. Brett Susan Blasey Ford, it. was all nothing to it. >> Christine. >> Yeah, Molly, um, Hemingway demolished. that. So, it's just that And now we hear, of. course, even the character.

assassination, the threats to the. justices, the leaking about the, um, Dobbs case, all of that is still not. enough. And we're told that this new. Democratic Socialist Party, they're. going to pack the court along with. they think they're going to get rid of. the Electoral College by the national. voters compact. They're going to bring. in two states, they say, Puerto Rico and make Washington D.C. a. state. They're going to If they are. still in the minority, they're going to. try to. I don't know.

eliminate the filibuster. They won't be. able to do that. And now we're even. talking the latest thing is they want to. I think one of the socialist candidates. for House wants to turn the Senate into. the House. In other words, it's not fair. that senators represent states rather. than demography. And they want them to. be, you know, popular 20 senators in. California zero in Wyoming, that kind of. stuff. So So they want to change What. I'm getting at is they know they're You. know who they don't want to make a. state, Victor? Cuba. They don't want.

Cuba to join as our 51st state. And. thing is that they. they their agenda does not appeal to. people. They know that on the border, on. crime, on draw any of that doesn't. appeal. We hear that right out of the. mouth of Bill Ayers. So they always want. to change the system. They always want to change the system or. they want to alter the demography. You know, when they open the border, they wrote actually wrote books that. said the new Democratic majority.

are demography is destiny. [clears throat] That was And then as. soon as anybody conservative said, "Yeah, you're right." They said, "You're. racist, you're nativist, you're you buy. into the great racial theory and all of. this stuff." But that's what they were. doing with the 10,000 people a day. And it's it's all gets back to the idea. they don't have a resonant message that. nobody really It's contrary to human. nature, the communist socialist message. And so they're always trying to finagle. the system or change it. And.

yeah, >> I mean anything will do. They they tell. us we're not allowed I mean, for years. on YouTube, you couldn't say that. transgenderism was a mental illness. They they would strike it strike your. video. You could get uh deplatformed or. demonetized. Now, this guy is using his. gender dysphoria as part of the mental. illness that allows him a lower. sentence. He's trying to say, "I'm not a. well person. I have gender dysphoria. I.

have depression.". Okay, depression is not a reason to get. out of a severe sentence. And by the. way, so this is what how he describes. himself. He put out a classified ad calling. himself a male to female pet for owner. "I want to wear nothing but a collar, ears, and tail plug and communicate only. through my body what I want." Um he. wrote in another thing. his play partners, quote, "pretty kinky.

Have a fetish account and everything. If. you are not a cis man, chances are I am. interested in playing with you." This is. this person. So, instead of being. treated [clears throat] as a very. bizarre, disturbed, but sane person who. should be sentenced. per the guidelines on trying to. assassinate somebody, this radically. left judge, Biden appointee, decided to. play the small violin for him. And the. New York Times assisted, back to the. media and their.

complicity. Um. here's what the New York Times described. as. Rosky, a man, again, was in court on uh. sentencing day. They use Ms. I refuse to use this. I'm. going to change the pronouns back to. what they actually are. But, they keep. saying Ms. and she. Okay, but I'm changing them. Mr. Rosky, wearing yellow prison scrubs and ankle. shackles, apologized to Justice. Kavanaugh and to the judiciary as a.

whole for contributing to the fear. judges experience as a result of doing. their jobs. He spoke in a halting voice, fighting. back tears, and leaning on his counsel's. table. Sitting behind him in the gallery. were his parents and younger sister. And. then I remember at this thing. they took testimony from his mother. talking about how like she hadn't been. attentive enough to his gender issues. Like we're talking about the possible. assassination of a sitting Supreme Court.

judge. Again, Victor, if that justice. had been Elena Kagan or Ketanji Brown. Jackson. >> on the eve of the Dobbs decision, we. would not be hearing about their. childhood trauma or their tears in the. courtroom. >> No, if somebody uh had threatened either. one of the those liberal justices and. then claimed at a sentencing that he was. uh trans and wanted a lighter sentence, they would have said.

well we have a whole century of sex. sexology research from Havelock Ellis to. Masters and Johnson. It's. it's. it's described in the literature as. 0.01%. to 0.001%. of people who have a biological problem, but it's it's very very rare. And that that's true. It's It's don't. It's denoted in antiquity. I mean, Catullus wrote a poem about. changing your sex by castration. And.

it's in Petronius's Satyricon. But my. point of all this, Megan, it was always. recognized as a very rare phenomenon, not 20% of a student body saying they're. in college in some polls that they're. considering transition. It became a. cultural fad. Almost every Hollywood. celebrity wanted to talk about a child. who might be trans. And for the left, it. was a new civil rights movement. They. said, "You know what? Uh we've got all. the legislation for civil rights. We've.

got all the affirmative action DEI, but. we have to find and we have gay. marriage. We've got to find a new Oh, it's the trans community." And then they. exaggerated the numbers. They they just. didn't look at years of prior research, and they just created this myth that. you know, it's one out of 10 uh people. are transgender or um. >> Right. Well, but you also know, Victor, I could have. sat here with you a year ago and said, "All right, Victor, knowing nothing about the case other. than this.

On the one side, a man claiming he's a woman and wearing. a dress and saying he's a furry. On the other side, a conservative US. Supreme Court Justice named Brett. Kavanaugh. In the middle of the case is the. decision to overrule Roe v. Wade. What is this trans person likely to get. as a sentence? The minimum, the maximum, or [clears throat] something else? You.

would have You would have said below the. minimum. You would have said that just. based on knowing nothing other than. that. >> Absolutely. And when I looked at Susan. Blassie, was that her name? Susan. Blassie Ford? >> Christine Blasey Ford. >> me. I I looked at that. None of her story made sense. Nobody. Even her friends couldn't corroborate. the story. She was obviously at times. disturbed. She said she was afraid of. flying. She had a record of flying. She. had been coached. And I said to myself, "They're almost going to win this case.

because they had all of the leftist. money, all of the the She was a cause. célèbre. It was. It was As soon as. As soon as it it was over, it was all. revealed. It was kind of just. constructed. It was like E. Jean. Carroll. She was a heartthrob. You. remember her? E. Jean Carroll was. And none of her story She couldn't. remember that what year that the. supposed assault took place. She. couldn't remember what dress because it. hadn't even been made yet. She couldn't. get any of the story. Then that Law &. Order had a an episode where it was. almost the same thing as she was in the.

same department store and and then and. then she had apps about how to break up. people's marriages and then she was. bragging that one of her favorite. >> her cat vagina. >> Yes, and she said one of her favorite. actors was Donald Trump and he she loved. The Apprentice. This was 10 15 years. And then finally I thought nobody's. going to believe this and then they had. a bill of attainder which is, you know. better than I, is unconstitutional and. the New York legislature had said, "Well, for 1 year there's no statute. limitations for sexual assault claim.".

And then she. >> They heard her story. They heard her. coming out with it. They realized she. was up against a statute limitations. They were like, "Oh, we have an idea. We'll just change the law.". And now the same. Now the same half of the country, you. know, the the far left on the on the. left side, will lecture us about how, you know, Donald Trump is acting extrajudicially. and abuse of process at the DOJ. Just. stop. Please stop because some of us. remember what happened during the Biden. four years. Last but not least, I have a.

weird one for you. >> That's basically the theme the theme of. the book I wrote, The Counterrevolution. I hadn't when I started it. I didn't realize how bad it was. I knew. it was bad, but I go through all of. those cases, Alvin Bragg, Letitia James. That's three half the book. And then I I. looked at all of the the media accounts. and then I looked at the polls and what. the weird thing was. every time he had the one mug shot, every time. uh Jack Smith gave a press conference,

every time somebody said he was going to. be his polls went up. His polls went up. and it just reminded me that. um for all the physical abuse that he. took. and how this is all constructed. Uh. then. he it was beneficiary. He he he people. really did get sick of it. And the funny thing is I said I thought. said to myself, this must have been all. constructed out of the White House even. though they were local state prosecutor.

Then I found out that 3 days after he. announced that he was going to run for. president, Megan, Nicholas uh Nathan Wade was in the White. House talking to the White House When. does the Fulton County prosecutor go to. the White House? That same day, Merrick. Garland, the same day uh. appoints Jack Smith as special. prosecutor. The same day Letitia James. is logged in at the White House. The. same day Michael Colangelo, the third. highest guy in the DOJ who had just come.

there from Alvin Bragg's case, leaves. that process prestigious job to go work. for Alvin Bragg. All there 3 days. afterwards. So, the whole. I only mention that cuz when they. mentioned lawfare what would have. happened or don't the DOJ now, that was. all one of the most egregious examples. of coordinating state, local, county, federal prosecutors to destroy a. political opponent after he had. announced that he was going to run for. president.

>> Oh, it's the late It's a late discovery. of conscience by the left side when they. don't like it being done to them. By the. way, one of the things that they were. very upset about was the John Bolton. indictment. He pleaded guilty, okay? So, um that that's that one. All right, I. know you got to go, but I just have to. mention this because it I mentioned it. in the tease and it just it came in. right as we went to air. I do think this is an ongoing story. Kristi Noem still has a government post. and her husband has not backed off of. his bizarre antics one bit from the look.

of it, Victor. He's laughing. I'm glad. to make you laugh. You need a couple. laughs. >> I do. >> Um. she's special envoy we all do for the. shield of the Americas. And um. now the Daily Mail, which broke the. story about her cross-dressing husband. to begin with, Brian, he's still at it. They're reporting he. is still at it. That he messaged bimbo. dominatrix, that they like this label in. this weird fetish field to the the. bimbofication.

fetish. Um they they've even they've been. messaging each other, okay? So, they. report Brian continued to message. dominatrix after his fetish was revealed. by the Daily Mail, according to. the bimbo, who is a sex worker. She goes. by Shy Sotomayor. Wonder if there's any relation. I'm. going to guess no. I don't I think so. Um. she allegedly had a 9-year relationship. with Brian Kemp. He married Christy as. right after high school, so obviously.

while he was married to her. And she claimed on this podcast that he. reached out to her just last month. Hold. on, where is that? Uh yeah, here it is. Let's play it. This is her on a podcast. >> You posted to X on June 15th that you, quote, can't keep Brian out of your DMs. Um how recently has he DM'd you and and. what is he saying to you? >> May 17th. He texted me on iMessage. He's. like, I've I've been a really bad boy.

I'm like, oh, I know. I know you've been. a bad boy. And then he started talking to me. directly on WhatsApp, and I had a long. talk with my husband. And I was just. like, you know what? I feel like this is. truly a sick man. I feel like he has a sex addiction, and. that's not something I would want to. take advantage of. So, I was just like, you know what? I'm going to send Brian a. message. I sent him a very long message. saying, you know, Brian, I thought. really hard on this. You've obviously.

are very sick. You need help. If it's. not clear by now or after being. America's joke, I truly don't know what. is. But, I've came forward with my story. about you. This is just kind of me. saying goodbye. If you find another girl. who does want to talk to you during. this, I'm like shame on both of you. You. guys You need to get better. >> Okay. Victor. >> Uh that that's so bizarre. >> Sotomayor is calling you sick and saying. you need help, you've reached rock.

bottom. >> Yeah, I I thought, "Wow, here here's. somebody so dominec- who all of a sudden. lecturing about psychological. disorders." And her appearance it. convicts her. But, you know, just a. final thought, there is something tragic. about this cuz I remember Kristi Noem. when she was a house member, uh and she was pretty good. And as a. governor, she. And then all of a sudden, she she had altered her appearance, her. the dress was inappropriate for her job. at Homeland Security. The Corey was involved. The I didn't.

know about We didn't know about the. husband, but it all I don't know whether. it was always there, but it just seemed. that it it was a tragedy that once she. got into national prominence, all of the. characteristics that had promoted her. and propelled her, good governance, sober behavior, the way she dressed was. kind of, you know, attractive but. conservative. And then all of a sudden, it was like a glamour tour. And then the personal problems with her. boyfriend, it just it just all imploded. It's It's kind of a moral story about.

power and and celebrity. I'm quoting. Barack Barack Obama. Remember, he just. said that I'm not interested at the. square at the dedication. He said, "One. thing we got to remember is uh it life's. not about influence, celebrity, and. money." And I'm thinking, "You're worth. a hundred million dollars. You work for. Netflix. You can't keep out of the. cameras. You You. You get 400,000 for a lecture, and you. always fly in when no one really needs. you but for you to lecture somebody. But.

it was almost as if every time Obama. just to finish every time he lectures on. morality, it's always a psychological. projection. You know that he feels that. he's a hypocrite so he's going to. identify it in someone else and then. condemn it and that gives him absolution. if somehow. But I don't know what. happened to Kristi Noem. It's really and. the weird thing final Megan is it we. didn't know who really about her. husband. We just saw those pictures, you. know, he was very religious and straight. and father. So we all thought that he.

was the victim of this purported affair. and then it turns out that. whatever he was doing it was so much. more bizarre than her. It would the. whole. >> He may have been the cause of it. >> Yes, and you combine it and it was. really tragic. It really was. It it's. >> I know. No, it it it is tragic. What's. even more tragic tragic is poor Shai. Soto Mayor. issued him an invoice for $4,500 and he. hasn't paid it, Victor. He You got to. You got to pay your debts. Especially. you're going to put on those enormous.

fake boobs. >> You got to pay your debts. >> And you're going to wear the tighty. little pants as Brian Noem. Um you got to pay your debts cuz you. know, what's going to happen is exactly. what did happen. Those ladies are going. to come out and they're going to spill. the tea on you, Brian. And your rehab. was a failure. It was a fail. You need. to go back in and do a different. facility, sir. Uh Victor, it's wonderful. to have you. Thanks for giving us so. much of your time. I know you're still. recovering and we're all praying for you. and wishing you the best. >> you, Megan. Appreciate it. See you. >> Good.

>> Yeah. >> We're counting on it. Again, Victor's. forthcoming book is titled The Counter. Revolution, The Fall and Rise of Donald. Trump and the MAGA movement. We will be. sure to have Victor on and celebrate. that when it hits. Up next, a deep dive. into the new leads on the disappearance. of Nancy Guthrie. There actually is a. fair amount of news in this story today. and we'll tell you exactly what it is. I. kind of can't believe what I've read. this morning. Stand by. When you sign your insurance agency, for. some brokers, that is the finish line.

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One super agency, one powerful platform. All your policies in one place, so. convenient, so much easier to manage. Go. to supersure.com/megan. Paid for by Super Sure Insurance Agency. LLC, which is a licensed insurance. agency. New developments today in the Nancy. Guthrie [music] case. Multiple news. outlets are now reporting that a second. note, we knew about this note, we just. didn't know exactly what was in it, sent. after her disappearance, claimed.

Savannah Guthrie's mother was, quote, "buried in nature.". Seeming to indicate that she had passed. away. The reporting prompted an emotional. response from Savannah, who said her. family is living in agony, and she. pleaded with anyone with information to. come forward. Now, as I mentioned at the top of the. show, the person who lit this fire, to. his credit, is our pal, friend of the. show, Howard Bloom, who did such amazing reporting on the. Idaho 4,

and has now for Air Mail, which is a. publication started by Graydon Carter, formerly of Vanity Fair, along with a. partner. He's reporting for them. And they turned. him to the Nancy Guthrie case. So, he. had a first installment in his reporting. not long ago, and this is the second. installment in which he broke a bunch of. exclusive details about that second. ransom note, so-called ransom note, which may have Now, we read it just been. more of a like a just like an update. Um from the the one.

writer who Savannah had said she. actually believed was the legitimate. kidnapper. And now we're so thanks to Howard, we're. learning all about what was in that. note. And again, just just a point of. order, but it is journalistic courtesy and. professionalism 101 when someone breaks. something big, like a new detail, and. they have it exclusively, you you have to credit them when you. report it. And like, I'm seeing all. these reporters run out like it's their. exclusive. Like,

you know, update on Nancy Guthrie colon, and then, you know, my sources tell me, "Okay, I get that you've matched. Howard's reporting." You have to cite. Howard. It's just All right, sorry, enough about that. Joining me now to explain what all of. this could mean for the case, Maureen. O'Connell. She's a 25-year veteran of. the FBI and co-host of Big City Crime. Behind the Red Tape, and James Hamilton, a former FBI supervisory special agent. who now runs his own security firm. called Hamilton Security Group. Maureen,

James, great to see you both. >> Good to see you. >> So, just want to get We We actually did talk. about this cuz as I'm giving credit out. here, we covered this in March when an X. account that goes by Nerdy Addict. actually did report some of these same. contents from that second note. And we. kind of laughed about it because we're. not used to. hinging our reporting on an X account. with somebody who just goes by Nerdy. Addict, right? But in our experience,

Nerdy Addict had has been right a lot in. this case and had clearly has developed. their own sources. I think it's a he. And uh the picture is a is of a man. And uh so we reported that some of this. content that the second note had said. that Nancy had passed. and uh moved on. But no most people. didn't touch it. And then Howard. actually got it um you know, in. reportable form. So clearly he had enough sources to. actually put it down on paper and. publish it, which he did and Airmail. did. And then it's it almost seemed like.

all these reporters had it up their. sleeves but didn't have permission to. print it or whatever because all of them. started coming out saying, "Okay, we. have it too. We have it too. We have it. too.". And what. Here is what the reporting is. That. that first. ransom note came. Uh Guthrie disappeared on February 1st. This is Savannah Guthrie's mother. I. think everybody knows this by this point. out of um Arizona. And uh she was in her. home Tucson overnight on a Saturday to a. Sunday. She had seen her.

other daughter Annie and Annie's husband. Tomas for some games earlier in the. evening. Tomas brought her back home. She went inside. Next thing we know she. didn't show up at her home on Sunday. morning at her at her um her friend's. home where they all watched a church. service every Sunday via remote, like. via Zoom. She wasn't there. And then all hell broke loose. It was. clear that she had been abducted. We. later saw videotape of the uh per-. presumed abductor at her door in a very. scary ski mask and so on. So then ransom letters started to come. in.

And the question all along has been were. they legitimate? Is the Is this the. actual kidnapper? Savannah would later. say she did believe those first two. notes were from the actual kidnapper. At. the time, local press reported and. Howard has matched the reporting that. the ransom note, the one that I'm about. to start with, the first one, accurately described what Nancy Guthrie. was wearing. when kidnapped, accurately described. where her Apple Watch was placed in her. bedroom, and accurately [clears throat]. described a broken floodlight light on.

the exterior of the home. Um so, February. 2nd and 3rd, the mom goes missing. February 1st. 1. >> Mhm. >> 2nd and 3rd, several media outlets, including TMZ, KGAN and KOLD, those are two locals, receive the first reported ransom letter. demanding millions in Bitcoin for her. return. Uh. this note has a first deadline of 5:00. p.m. Thursday. Okay? Again, she was. stolen overnight Saturday to Sunday. Uh now we get to Tuesday.

and they're saying this Thursday, we. want $4 million or. or. or else. That the note explicitly used. that term, or else. There was no proof of life. Um KOLD anchor Mary Coleman told CNN at. the time, "A lot of it is information. that only someone is who's holding her. for ransom would know, and some very. sensitive information and things that. people who were not there when she was. taken captive would not know.". Um. Okay, February 4th comes along and.

Savannah and her siblings posted an. Instagram message appearing to respond. to the ransom. "We need to know without. a doubt that she is alive and that you. have her. We want to hear from you. We. are ready to listen. Please reach out to. us.". February 5th, which is Thursday, the. deadline. The first ransom deadline. comes and goes. $4 million due by 5:00. p.m. They don't pay. February 6th, another note goes to just. one of those three news sources, and. it's local Tucson station KOLD.

This is the one that according to Howard. Bloom. included language that he characterizes. as an apology. And. uh it led to Savannah and her siblings. responding with a new video on Instagram. holding hands and saying we received. your message, we understand. We have it. here. Let's just watch it. >> We received your message and we. understand. We beg you now.

to return our mother to us so that we. can celebrate with her. This is the only way we will have peace. This is very valuable to us. and we will pay. >> Howard reports that they were responding. to. the message sent to kold alone. that he reports as follows. Had the same. IP address as the initial seemingly. credible emails. And it transformed the entire course of.

the investigation, quoting here. With its receipt the task force. investigating this case concluded with a. stony resignation, the Nancy Guthrie. case was no longer simply a kidnapping. but also a potential homicide. In this. note, the contents of which were. summarized by sources close to the case, the sender took a new less confident. tone. It opened with a sputtering and. labored quote apology. That was the word used by a source close. to this case for Guthrie's inadvertent.

death. It went harshly on, however, to offer up. the transactional possibility that her. body could be delivered for a sum. Whether it would be the original 4. million or another amount apparently was. never clarified. And now after Howard breaks that, guys, a bunch of people are matching the. reporting and adding to it. There's some. quibble about whether it was an actual. apology in there, but confirming that.

that second note reported Nancy had. died. Um. here's Brian Entin, among others, reporting on the note. Sot 53. >> Uh and I want to read you this exactly. cuz I I wrote down exactly what I was. able to get from my source. Um. I am told. that the second ransom note in the Nancy. Guthrie case said that she died. and that she was, {quote}, "buried with. nature now." And again, this is. according to a source close to the. investigation.

Uh the note indicated that Nancy's death. was not intentional, but did not offer a. direct apology. There's been some other. reporting today, um from other people, saying that that. it was an apology. I am told it was not. a direct apology, but that it did. indicate that the death was not. intentional. Remember, we don't know. whether any of these ransom notes are. real. Savannah Guthrie has said in the. past that she believes that the ransom.

notes, or at least some of them, are. real. >> And one more, Maureen and James. Um This is a reporter named Briana. Whitney. She works now for Crime Junkie, but was previously at another outlet. covering this case. And um. she said she's seen the note and. describes it here. Sot 56. >> I have spent months and months covering. the Nancy Guthrie case, boots on the. ground. And in my former role, before I. came to Crime Junkie, I was made aware.

of what these ransom notes said as I was. reporting on the case. I've seen them. with my own eyes. So, I want to actually. provide more context as to what that. second note said. The way that this note. was written, it's written as, "we.". Like, "we didn't know this." As if it. was some sort of team, or whoever was. involved in this. It said, "We did not. fully grasp the seriousness of her. physical condition." It went on to say. that they never intended to hurt her. during all of this. They continued and. said, "She perished shortly after she.

was taken. They believe that it was. heart-related." And then what the. reports were confirming earlier today, that she was buried with nature. And. maybe the most important part of the. second ransom note, it said, "Nothing. you could have done could have changed. the outcome. We are truly sorry.". >> So, she too is reporting an apology, but. that's not even like the most salient. The most salient point is that Nancy is. dead according to this person, that she. had died, and that's why. you guys were right in your speculation.

when you heard Savannah's reaction. that it sounded like an attempt to get. back a body as opposed to a live person. But, there's a lot in there. So, let's. go through it. Um Maureen, let me start. with you. Your Your reaction. >> Well, energetically to to your point. about how what we thought when we heard. um. uh the Guthrie family respond to this, it was as if all the air was let out of. their tires and and you could just feel. it. Uh you could see it. It was clearly. obvious.

Now, with regard to these people saying, "Oh, nothing else could have happened. We never could have foreseen anything. like this happening." is just utter. nonsense. Nancy was bleeding when she left that. residence, which means she was probably. struck in the face. As an 84-year-old. woman, she was scared to a point where a. 35-year-old fit man could have a heart. attack and die. So, for them to say. you know, "No one could have expected. anything like that to happen.". >> Yeah, it's just it's just utter. nonsense. They're murderers. They.

murdered her. Period. >> Yeah, it's just to reiterate again what Briana. reported, and again, I trust her because. she says she has seen the note. This is. not just reporting from somebody, James. This is her saying, "I had eyes on it.". We did not fully grasp the seriousness. of her condition. We never intended to hurt her. Nothing you could have done could have. changed the outcome, but she did perish. shortly after she was taken.

And they say they also we believe it was. heart related. Quote, she's been buried. with nature. Your thoughts? >> Oh, hey, good to see you. This just. continues with the unorthodox nature of. this case. Um. none none of this, you know, every time. we think we have stuff that adds up, it. just doesn't. And there's little bits of. information here that are interesting. Um. you know, again, it's. I don't put a lot into the apology. A. lot of people are saying that people. that kidnap or murder can't apologize.

Well, that's a pretty general statement. Um you know, I I think it's just. unorthodox. Again, I'm curious what. happened between the you know, the first. note and the second note, if we thought. it was real. And and I agree with. Maureen, when we saw that Instagram post. on you know, with the family that you. just played, it was pretty clear that. that you know, that something had. changed within the investigation and. they were asking, you know, for the. family to you know, plead directly cuz. they had basically had no communication. with the quote-unquote kidnapper. And.

and it was heartbreaking and it's you. know, again, case continues to be. heartbreaking and I feel terrible for. these people. >> But what do you make of the attempt? We. have about a minute left to and then. we'll carry over you guys after the. break, but. what do you make of the attempt to sound. kind of like likable, Maureen? >> It sounds feminine to me. A lot of the. verbage is feminine. Um this this. buried with nature. It's it's like they're trying to comfort.

people. Why are you trying to comfort. someone when you. >> feminine. >> It doesn't it? A lot of this does. >> Yeah. >> It's it's. >> Very good observation. >> Yeah, what guy is going to say, I I'm. you know, I could have never foreseen. this and nothing you could have done. could have changed this. What that is neither here nor there. That has nothing to do with anything. Well, I'll tell you what could have. changed it. You not breaking into the. home of an 84-year-old woman. There's a There's a a a. you know, breaking headline for you.

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purchase before July 10th. Again, just. text MK to the number 989898 today. >> I've seen them with my own eyes. So I. want to actually provide more context as. to what that second note said. The way. that this note was written, it's written. as we, like we didn't know this as if it. was some sort of team or whoever was. involved in this. It said, "We did not. fully grasp the seriousness of her. physical condition." It went on to say. that they never intended to hurt her. during all of this. They continued and.

said, "She perished shortly after she. was taken." They believe that it was. heart related. And then what the reports. were confirming earlier today that she. was buried with nature. And maybe the. most important part of the second ransom. note, it said, "Nothing you could have. done could have changed the outcome. We. are truly sorry.". There it is again, reporting by now. Crime Junkie reporter Briana Whitney who. says she's seen that second ransom note.

or however you want to characterize it, note from the alleged kidnappers of. Nancy Guthrie and that it did include an. apology, an announcement that she had. died, a statement that. "We did not fully grasp the seriousness. of her condition. We never intended to. hurt her. She perished shortly after she. was taken. We believe it was heart. related. She's been {quote} buried with. nature and nothing you could have done. could have changed the outcome.".

Welcome back. We're discussing the. latest with the Nancy Guthrie case with. Maureen O'Connell, a 25-year-old veteran. of the FBI and co-host Big City Crime. Behind the Red Tape and James Hamilton, a former FBI supervisory special agent. who now runs his own security firm. called Hamilton Security Group. Um yeah, so back can we just like hit on the. feminine point a little bit more maybe. expand on that like. "Buried with nature. We never intended to hurt her.". Even like she perished? Perished? Was.

that word used? I wonder cuz that's that. jumped out at me. That's not really how. people talk. And then the "Nothing you. could have done could have changed the. outcome.". >> Like don't blame yourself. >> weird. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's just very conciliatory and and very. strange considering the facts of this. investigation, of this case, of this. poor woman. to talk this way. You know, any any. >> [snorts]. >> any self-respecting criminal.

would at least be a little more honest. about what happened here. They're trying to soften what they did. And please don't blame yourself. I hope. you're not being too hard on yourself. It's so weird. >> Well, because I mean, if you're. following their logic, they had said in. the original note on February 2nd, and. again, Sunday was the 1st, "Give us $4 million by Thursday or. else." Again, using the term actual or.

else. And now here we are, they haven't paid, and they're writing the note saying, "She's gone.". "Oh, and by the way, there was nothing. that you could have done to have changed. the outcome." So, they seem to be. saying, "You didn't give us our $4 million. bucks, but don't worry, she was dead. anyway. Even if you'd given us the. money, it wouldn't have panned out for. you. But, if you want to give us. money anyway, we could get the body back. to you, I guess." It Or at least maybe. that's just still lurking out there. It's implied. It's not clear in Briana's.

description of it. No one's talking about. But, that original cuz the the original. note we know James said, "$4 million by. Thursday, $6 million. by the following Monday. If you wait, it's going to cost you more." Then comes. the second note. Like, why would they. send the second note? Like, "Hey, FYI, she she died. And don't blame yourself.". Like, what's the point of that? >> Well, it looks like they also didn't. give any real um you know, particulars. on how to get that $4 million to them.

They It doesn't sound like there was any. clear communication given, you know, this is how you would respond to to me, get back to me. Um and then they're just double tapping, "Hey, by the way, it's you know, it's. not worth it now cuz she's gone. And. we're sorry, but you can still give me. some money cuz I get the body back to. you." But, I think you and Maureen are. are nailing a couple of really important. things. It you know, if true, that you. know, she's with nature. Instead of. saying, you know, she's gone with God. I. mean, if you're following the case, you. know that she you know that Nancy. um was a believer. And so you that would.

track with her, you know, this note. person saying it was a heart condition, which would track with if you're. following the case, you know about the. pacemaker. But saying that she is buried with. nature is interesting. That needs to be. looked into and there's plenty of people. who are really smart and can put words. together and study language and and. really good context of a statement like. that. Is that said in certain parts of. the world? And certainly hope the FBI is. looking into something like that cuz. that's just a very interesting phrase. And then what you had said earlier Megan. about, you know, we didn't realize the.

extent of her condition. It kind of drew. me to one of you know the the two. things, which is you know, I thought. initially that there was some. pre-operational surveillance, meaning. they looked at the house and maybe even. looked at her. And then whether or not that was because. she was Savanna's, you know, mother or. because it's in line with this nice. house, nice theory, you know, we were talking. earlier about, you know, a crime gang. hitting these nice houses. But still. both would speak to pre-operational.

surveillance and and maybe that's what. she's you know, the note writer is. alluding to is when we looked at it, we. didn't realize she was that, you know, kind of old or fragile. And I thought that was very interesting. >> There's. reaction today from Savanna herself who. did address this on the Today show this. morning. It's like you kind of forget. that she's back doing her job. without any resolution in this case, which you know, she has to do. I'm you. know, we all have a job to do. She has a job. to do.

But like then this story is in the news. again and she you know, felt the need to. respond for obvious reasons and here's. what she said. >> The bravery and courage with which you. have done this job every day since that. happened. Nothing short of remarkable. >> Wow. >> Nothing short of remarkable. >> I love you guys and I love this place. and um this is unusual and unprecedented. to say the least to be sitting here. But, um. you know, I I don't have any comment on. the story and um I'm not involved in our. coverage. Um.

but I can't pretend I'm not here. And. so, since I am, I wanted to just take. the opportunity to. to ask people to really to beg people to. come forward. Somebody knows something. And this is a new story today that is on. your radar, but this is the life that my. sister lives, that I live, that my. brother lives, that our extended. families live, that our children live. every day. And we are in agony. And we cannot be at peace. So, no matter. how much I try to come out here every. day and smile and find that joy, and I.

will. I promise I will. This is the moment to tell you that. we need your help. We're begging for. your help. And I'm not going to miss. that [clears throat] opportunity. And so, please, if you're watching, >> Yes. >> no matter how small, the reward is. there. >> [snorts]. >> You can tell us. You can be anonymous. Please, do the right thing for us, for. our family, for our children. And we. love our mom, and we will never stop. looking for her. Never. >> Mhm. I wish she had mentioned the reward,

too, because it's like somebody. that that the reward actually could. motivate somebody to come forward. And. and that is something we should discuss. because. Howard's reporting, and I know Howard Bloom, he's very. solid. Like, he's I don't know how he. gets the information he gets, but he. gets really good exclusives. And his reporting. is that this task force that we've all. discussed before, you know, that's what. remains on the investigatory team now, and it's a combo of FBI and Tucson cops.

Um detect de- detectives, that the task. force. has. it like. expressed some regret, from the sound of. it, about not paying. the ransom. Like, that if they had just paid, if the. FBI had agreed to pay the ransom or tell. Savannah to pay the ransom, that 4. million bucks in the beginning, that the. FBI really feels confident in its. ability to track the Bitcoin, James. You.

know, it's Bitcoin, so it's it's not. just like cashing a check. It's going to. be a lot harder to track it. But that at. some point we've, you know, the Bitcoin has to be withdrawn or it. does the kidnapper no good. And so, why didn't they just pay the 4. million and then track the Bitcoin and. arrest the perpetrator because. what he writes is that, and we had. speculated about this, instead they. decided to quote tickle the wire. And remember we talked about how there. Harvey Levin had reported that there had.

been a $300 deposit made into the bank. account of whomever wrote those first. two notes into the Bitcoin account. And no one bit. No one touched it. Now, he's reporting. it's a different number, like $141 that. was deposited, but it's neither here nor. there. The point is the FBI, according. to him, did in fact, this is the first. confirmation we've had that it was the. FBI who put the money in, and that it. was an attempt to tickle the wire, James. They thought maybe the kidnapper.

would be dumb enough to take it. And Howard reports that either, you. know, either the kidnapper was like, "Nice try, all right?" and knew it was a. trap, or just wasn't interested in, you. know, going risking anything for 140. bucks. So, your thoughts. on whether they they should have paid. it. Like if they're really believing. this note was legit as Savannah does, and her information definitely comes. from them, and that they had all these things right. about the Nancy scene and Nancy herself,

and now we know more about what the two. notes sounded like, like. why didn't they just pay? >> Yeah. Uh, it's because protocol, uh, I. mean, you we got to remember that the. reality is we still never had a proof of. life ever. Uh so the note the first note, you know, didn't indicate anything like a picture. of her or anything. Yeah, we we do have. some information about the the the. watch. Um but that would not be specific. enough that the bureau would say, "Yeah, just go ahead and launch $4 million.".

Because if you do and you know, you. don't get her back because it's a. scammer, then there's going to be more. $4 million request. And you're going to. keep playing that game until you run out. of money. And so that's why they don't. do it is because if you don't have any, you know, real legitimacy and the only. way you can really get that legitimacy. is you got to show us this person that. you say you have. Um they just can't do that and that's, you know, and that's a question I asked. too, you know, if they believe so much. But the it that that protocol is there.

for a very good reason and and I, you. know, it it might sound callous, but I. agree that, you know, they shouldn't. have paid the $4 million without an. actual proof of life of Ms. Guthrie. >> I just don't understand, Maureen, what. kind of a kidnapper, if you go with this. is the kidnapper, what is the point? What is the point of on Thursday after. they've missed the deadline. sending a follow-up saying, "She's dead. She's dead now. We didn't intend to hurt.

her. It's not your fault. We think it was the. heart. Um nothing you could have done." What is. the point? >> The point is they're amateurs. And they. and and I have to first go back for a. minute if I could to James because if in. fact they did pay the ransom without any. proof of life, what precedent does that. set set for every other person who's. kidnapped? Everyone's going to jump out. of the woodwork even more than they do. right now because that you saw the pre-. predators pounce when that award.

>> can we really say there's no proof of. life? I'm I'm just going to play devil. devil's advocate. When the the first. note allegedly said, "This is what she. was wearing. This is where her Apple. Watch was and check out the broken. floodlight on this part of the home. That's our proof that we have her and we. were there." Is that Does that qualify? That's more than. >> No. >> saying nothing. >> Sure, but it's not enough to say that. she's not dead. I mean, if you if you. just consider how they transported her. or how they had to transport her. So, she's bleeding from presumably her. mouth, which they already know by now.

because like they've tested that blood. to see if saliva was in it or whatever. on the front porch. So, she's bleeding. from her mouth. She's 84 years old. She. has no medication with her. She's very. frail. She's scared to death and there's. no proof of life. They all They obviously spoke with her. doctors. They've talked with family. members. You could see from watching her. on Savannah show how frail she was. So, if they were doing pre-incident. surveillance, they saw her with a walker. or a cane going very slowly around her.

backyard. And when it's really hot and. dry like that, it's difficult to you. could see someone breathing with labor. It's It's you know, you have to have proof of life. It's It does sound callous. Again, to. Jim's point, but it's it's I I agree. with it actually. >> I mean, like in negotiation, I mean, they teach you I'm I'm sorry, Megan. >> No, you go. >> just in negotiation school, I mean, they. teach you obviously we want to establish.

communication rapport, but we got to. keep the goal in mind and we both have. the same goal here. I mean, I want to. get her If I'm working this as a. negotiator and I'm talking to the. kidnapper, look, I want her back and you. want to give her to me because you want. your money. So, we we have a common. ground here, but for me to get this. money cuz 4 million bucks, you know, I. don't just have it lying around. I got. to go get that, but before I go get it, can you prove to me you have her? And it. And it can't be that you know there's a. floodlight out that you could have got. from a you know, Google Earth overview. or some you you.

previous story cuz Megan, you did a. great job playing all the previous. stories of interviews that Savannah had. done with her mom where I could have. seen that Apple Watch. I could have seen. the details of that inside of her. bedroom. I could have told you the. nightgown she likes to wear. I could. have told you the color of her pillows. All things I would have got from, you. know, open source. I wouldn't have. kidnapped her, but I would have seen. those things, you know, they were open. to me. So, what we would be looking for. is give me something else. Like prove to. me you have her, which is why you always. see the newspaper clipping, you know, the hostage holds the newspaper of the.

day so we know, okay, we still have a. live body and then we can negotiate in. good faith. >> fake, if this is a faker, okay, I'm with. you. I get I accept all that, but like. if you're a faker, why would you send that second note? I. can I can actually kind of follow where. the real kidnapper might do it. Like if. the real kidnapper has her, it's Tuesday. night. Sorry, it's it's. the the first was Sunday when she was. taken, right? Yes, and then the notes. came on the second and third. So,

you have her. You want the money, so you're sending. out the notes on Monday and Tuesday. saying 4 million by Thursday, 6 million. if you wait till Sunday. And you offer. enough detail in there to convince. somebody you have her. This is what she. was wearing, this is where the Apple. Watch was, and this is what the. floodlight looked like. Then you watch the world explode. over your note, all the speculation, all. the stuff. And then, let's not forget. one of the first things the Guthrie. family said Savannah in particular right.

away was. she's. she desperately needs her medication. Like she she said she's not going to. survive without her heart medication. And we were never sure whether that was. 100% true or whether it was an attempt. to ratchet up the urgency for the. kidnappers. Like, we need her back ASAP. May- maybe it was 100% true and she. dies. So, now she dies. So, you you can't give proof of life. There's no more life. You have Nancy, but it's a body now. And maybe by the time they sent this.

follow-up note. um on February. 6th, it was the the day after the ran-. the ransom was due and not paid. Maybe by that day you decided to take a. different tactic. You've got to You've. got to fess up you cannot provide proof. of life. There's not going to be any. talking to Nancy or pictures of Nancy. holding the daily paper. So you decide to come clean saying. she's dead but. I don't know whether it's explicit in.

here according to that Briana it's not. but maybe the theory is the earlier. demand will stand and maybe they will. pay us for the return of the body and. indeed that is what Savannah responds. with. So that that makes sense to me. But if you are a fake kidnapper just. trying to get Bitcoin 4 million or 6. million that second note makes no sense. >> Oh well I don't I mean. I'm surprised you haven't been through. this cuz cuz I know I have and I think. probably Maureen has too but when. someone's trying to get something from.

you they just keep trying. They don't. stop. All right, they're incessant about. it. It never ends. They just keep coming. and so. they they'll hang on for anything and. that's why you send the second note is. oh maybe I say the right things. Maybe I. sound like you all had said earlier. Maybe if I sound apologetic or I sound. you know sympathetic that maybe you know. you'll send me some money because I have. nothing right now. I have no If I'm a. scammer I have no money right now maybe. I can get a hundred grand from you if I. tell you where the body is. You know and. that's that's that's typical 101 fraud.

fraudster mentality and methodology. That's exactly what they do. So the. second note doesn't surprise me at all. >> You wouldn't expect them to to write the. second note ratcheting it up like she's. hurting you know she's scared which by. the way. someone who, think it was Harvey. reported was in the first note that she. was scared. >> She's okay, but she's scared. >> you know, so the second note, you. ratchet that up. Get Get Savannah upset.

She's the one with the deep pockets. Like, let's scare her as opposed to. run the risk of her being like, "I'm not. paying $4 million for, you know, somebody who may or may not have a. body.". >> Well, no. Notice it worked because she. went on Instagram the next day on the. 7th saying, "Hey, we hear you and we. will pay.". So, what happened? That's the good. question is, okay, what happened from. the Instagram post to this, you know, IP. address? Why was there no more contact, right? What What happened then? Cuz.

there's no one reporting on any of that. Nobody, right? So, what happened? >> Maureen, did you want to weigh in? Cuz. I'm I have another thing I want to bring. up, but you go first. >> we're missing a lot of pieces of. information and and without them, it's. it's going to be hard, but I think part. of what happened with the second note is. they're trying to take their foot off. the gas. They're trying to let let. trying to make the the situation um uh. a little less explosive. And by that, I.

mean, they're trying to turn down down. the temp. Right now, everybody's full. steam ahead. Everyone's looking for. They're out searching for. It's pedal to. the metal. Every single law enforcement. agency all and they just wanted to to. just pull that back a little bit. And by. saying that she's gone, by saying that. she's, you know, out in nature, what. what does that mean? It means they're. going to. So, we don't have to worry about writing. warrants for houses right now. I mean, there's it's it just it just sends the. investigation in a totally different. direction and away from someone. And the.

final thing about this is a lot of this. in. the the verbage here is someone who. cares. You know, we always said from the. beginning that this is someone that that. had some nexus to to Nancy. This This. person is trying to say that they care. um because that might um as Jim said, that James said, that might um get them. to pay. But, they're just predators. They're just going to do whatever they. can to get someone to pay them.

>> Okay. I Here's Here's what I find interesting. among other things about this. Harvey Levin. as you know Sheriff Harvey as our our. friend Zack Peter calls him he was also. recei- got the first ransom note, but. not the second. Then he started getting targeted by some. other person. Who also wanted Bitcoin. And this person was like, I know where.

she is. And I know who has her. And revealed that it was south of the. border. But, like wouldn't say more. And was. like, give me half the Bitcoin up front, half later. It was I don't know. They. kept changing. And we all kind of. thought this person was a fraudster. Maybe left a few percentage points open. for the fact that maybe not, but did not. sound legit. But, Harvey. he [snorts] he he came out and laid out. some updates on TMZ about that person.

And Harvey's discussions with the FBI. around that person. Okay? Just listen to. We cut it way down, but. listen to what we have here. >> Now, there is. uh a uh reference to Nancy Guthrie not. being alive anymore. But, that is from. the person who sent us multiple emails. saying that he knows or knew. uh where Nancy Guthrie was and where the.

kidnappers were. And he wanted money uh. in return for information. We passed. that along to the FBI as we did the. ransom note, but this person kept sending us emails. and early on he said time is of the. essence and then a few days after the. kidnapping he said time is no longer of. the essence meaning she wasn't alive.

So that's where that came from not the. people who kidnapped her but from the. person who was sending us these notes. Now that person wanted. effectively a hundred thousand dollars. This person also said that he was afraid. that he might be implicated. He had a. burglary on his record from I think he. said 11 years before. and apparently he knew these kidnappers. well enough that he was afraid he might. be implicated. So.

the FBI never paid that money. I was. always confused about that. I called the. FBI back and I said look, what if. TMZ does a documentary and that we try. and get in touch with this guy and even. pay the money and if he takes us to the. location then.

you get resolution. The Guthrie family. gets resolution. And if he scams us, he scams us. But I. just had this real feeling that. it might be real and I've called a half. a dozen times since over the last couple. of weeks and I've gotten nothing back. For some reason the FBI has gone radio. silent on me. >> So that's another question. Why not just.

try to pay that one off and see if it. leads anywhere because that person too. for whatever it's worth, was saying time. is of the essence, which kind of tracks. with the first. ransom note we were just discussing, which we believe is from somebody else. Savannah says she believes the. legitimate kidnapper. And then the. reversal. days later of. she's gone. And and according to. Harvey's uh person, time is no longer of.

the essence. And this person wouldn't. have known None None of that reporting. about the second. you know, ransom note saying she's. perished and she's been buried with. nature. That was not yet public. So, you know, if this guy Yeah, you could. make the case that maybe this guy did. know. the actual kidnappers. And maybe all of. this is real. Maybe the first two notes. are from the real kidnapper, and maybe. this guy. really did know the real kidnapper, and. we should have Instead of putting 300. bucks or 140 dollars in the Bitcoin.

account, should have actually taken. Harvey up on his offer. to put the half of the Bitcoin. into the account. and take the loss. You know, it was what. would have 45,000 bucks at one point. Like, he's basically saying to the FBI, "Maureen, I I will pay it. I will suck. it up.". And they aren't getting back to him. So, what's the story there? >> Well, maybe um just as is the case with. you, Megan, maybe the FBI was tired of. dealing with. >> Sheriff Harvey.

>> Yeah, exactly. Sheriff Harvey, that's. right. Um I'm I. I think they're I think they're close. right now to um pulling this case. together, and that's what my sources are. telling me. They're. >> What? >> Yeah, things are happening, and um but. but one of the reasons it's taking so. long is because whatever defense. attorney takes this investigation and. and represents whoever they charge in. this case, you have to operate under the. assumption, like from day one, uh you're. doing your trial prep practically.

Everything you do is geared toward trial. and prosecution. And if um. if you. you're going to have the greatest. defense attorney in the world handling. this case, whoever whoever takes this. case. So, you have to operate under the. assumption that a couple of big chunks. of your evidence may get tossed. So, you. have to put a case together in such a. way that it would withstand losing some. some of these chunks of evidence, depending on how you got them or.

or how vulnerable they might be to. getting tossed. So, I think they're just. working on these other uh chunks of. evidence, shoring them up even more. But, um I I I think we're getting. closer. I actually really do think. they're getting closer. And one thing um. when, you know, when James talks about. being a negotiator, and he talked about. every time a um a uh kidnapper puts out. a ransom note, th- just just the words. have have all kinds of implications. And. so, the same holds true for FBI agents.

when we speak to people on the outside. If we talk to them and there's um. optimism in our voice, and we sound. upbeat, and we don't want to answer. questions, the the person we're talking. to could say, "Wow, they're probably. closer than we think they are." And. that's when I would that's when I go to. ground and I. don't talk to anybody else. When I feel. like I'm I'm getting there. Uh and I. don't know, James, what do you what do. you think about that when you're getting. kind of close? >> wait. I love James, but we're not moving. off Maureen O'Connell yet.

Why Can you just expand on why you think. they're wrapping like they're getting. there, that they're close to making an. arrest? >> I think they're getting close to. the porch guy. And when they when they get the porch. guy, the floodgates. shall swing open. >> What's your level of confidence on that? >> 75%. >> [sighs]. >> Maureen. >> That's big news.

>> I know. >> I've like. That's huge if big if true as the kids. say. By the way, it does. it it it raises something else Howard. Bloom said. in his reporting that he wrote he wrote. that they are. thinking. it was a group effort. Like at least two. At this point because he reports. they think the person writing about the. Bitcoin. um.

was sophisticated. That. the the letters, the words, the English, the diction, whatever. was sophisticated. And that the guy on. the porch to them seemed too bumbling. to be the author. And again that they may think that those. two notes are authentic, they may think. You don't I don't know that. I'm going. off of what I said before. Savannah. thinks so in her her info would have. come from them for sure. Um and Harvey reported that the FBI was. taking those notes very seriously.

So. that they they're thinking. the bumbler on the front porch. alleged bumbler, there's a difference of. opinion there. is not the person who did the Bitcoin. account and wrote the sophisticated. notes and is talking about perished she. perished and she's. she's with nature, she's buried in. nature and all that. Like I actually. that tracks to me. That tracks that it. might not be the same person. I don't. know. James, your thoughts on Maureen's. just dropping a bomb on us here on our.

casual update in the case. >> Well, leave it to Maureen you know to. bring the great news and I I certainly. pray that she's right and that there is. some closure and all all that. I would. be over the moon if we actually had an. arrest in this case and and and I would. I would be very very you know happy. about that. I did want I'm going back Megan to your. your question, uh, with regards to, you. know, Harvey and this this second. individual who, um, you know, had some. information. You know, the reason the.

Bureau puts out a reward is so that we. can get money to people who have useful. information. And so, as he started going. down that road as to why the individual. didn't like that idea, it sounded very. criminal to me. And I mean, you know, Maureen and I for more than 50-plus. years, we talk to criminals on a daily. basis. And so, uh, when he double-taps with, well, I. would I have a burglary 11 years ago, that's just nonsense, okay? That he. doesn't want to go to the Bureau because. he's probably full of crap, right?

That's just the reality of it. He's. making up excuses. There's no. There's nothing that says we can't give. you the reward if even though you've had. some criminal conviction years ago, as. long as you weren't involved in the. crime. Um, so, I just think that he sees he. sees Harvey as an easy mark and wants. some publicity and wants a little bit of. money. Um, and the reason to answer your. question pointedly as to why the Bureau. doesn't let Harvey just pay the money, well, it didn't sound like they told him. no, they just gave him the Heisman. They. just basically said, "We're moving on. We got, you know, more important things.

to do." And if Harvey wants to pay the. guy, go right ahead. He'll probably lose. the money, but it'll be a good story for. him. But again, we just can't be in the. business of giving money out to people. that, you know, are chasing stories. Um, it just doesn't work that way and it's. not a professional way to to operate. >> One of my favorite lines of all time, James, giving him the Heisman. >> You like that? >> I love it. >> Um, >> Yeah. >> what about I'm going back to look at the. Harvey. the Harvey notes, his special line of.

notes. Not not the receipt of the first ransom. note, but this other person who's like, "They're in Mexico and I know who they. are.". Now, that's the first he's revealed that. the person had a burglary conviction. I had not heard that before. So, the person's admitting that they. have a record or maybe Harvey. Harvey doesn't have an identity on them. So, no, the person must have admitted in. the notes that he has a burglary. conviction. So, you know, that kind of increases his credibility. You hang out with criminals, you are a.

criminal. More likely that you're. hanging out with the criminals, maybe. >> Well, fun fact, Megan. >> I'm going back. Well, I'm trying to figure out Maureen, when did that guy write "Time is of the. essence." And when did he write "Time is. no longer of the essence." Because I do. I if it's if it tracks exactly. the first note and the second note from. the other guy, then that is kind of. interesting. Like doesn't that increase. the chances that the this second Harvey. guy might actually have known what he. was talking about? >> Well, I'm Maureen hit it, but I'm going.

to I want to come back to it if I can. >> Sure. >> Yeah. What. When he says "Time is of the essence.". and he doesn't get a respond response, then. I mean, after he just realizes that's. not going to work, so he's going to go. to plan C or D. And then the only other. quick thing is if someone admits to us. that he's got a burglary rap uh in his. jacket, guaranteed he's got five other. charges also. >> [laughter]. >> Right. And I wrote it down as you were. as you were playing that, Megan, I wrote.

it down because. when you work fraud, wire fraud, mail. fraud, you know, the stuff we work. forever, it's always critical like time. is time is of the essence. They always. create this urgency, right? When they. want to get money from somebody. It's it. has to happen right now. It they can't. be any slow down in the process at all, and they always hit the people with. urgency. Uh and so, when I heard that, I. was like, "Yep, that's typical fraud. 101." Um I don't know. >> Yeah, consider the success of all the um.

fraud against elderly people. "I've got. your granddaughter right here." And a. young girl screaming in the background. "Get to the bank, withdraw money, drop. it off here." You I believe the people. that that go along with that. >> Yep. >> You when you charge it with emotion and. you put a timestamp on it and you push. push push, this is what they do. >> Well, it would. Okay, so I was pursuing what if it's. real? What if that's the real kidnapper. and this is a real guy who knows the. kidnapper and they're all they're.

writing the same thing. Time's of the. essence. Uh, it's not of the essence. Um. What if it's not if it's not real? Neither one's real. Then what you're saying is actually. really smart and really interesting, too, because. you're you got two bad guys behaving. exactly the same way at the same time. Right? >> Right. >> Then you got two we presume two. I. There's still the possibility this is. the same person. But. >> Look. >> You got two bad guys who are like, "Emergency, emergency, I'm in on it and.

I know things." No response. Uh. It's not an emergency, but I might be. able to help you out a little. >> Like just imagine the guy. >> Well, we know that this is like tried. and true. You've seen a million of these. like where they do the. >> And just think about the conduit that. it's TMZ. Right? Why go there? If you really have useful. information, you're First of all, you're. going to the family. I mean, every. kidnapping I've ever worked, that they. called the family. They didn't call TMZ. They didn't call the local news station. They called the family and said, "Hey,

we got your kid. We want the money.". That's how it works. I mean, it it's. just again, I think I said this the. first time I was with you how unorthodox. this thing has been. The communication. through TMZ or your local news, I mean, you go direct to that family. And. certainly, if you know it's Savannah. Guthrie, you go to her directly. Hey, here you. go. I want my money. Um and again, I. just I I I smell fraud and and it's good. publicity for, you know, TMZ, you know, and that's why they keep going there.

And and he's getting a good story out of. it. I I wish he'd kind of paid it to see. what would happened. Um he probably. would have been out that money. Probably. >> Right. >> Especially the south of the border ones. >> party, not to be confused with these. first two parties, that that came in. with a demand for ransom that went. directly to Annie Guthrie's phone. That guy's he's been caught and he's. going on trial, I think, soon. >> Right. >> for doing that. But my point is simply. Annie Guthrie's number must be pretty. easy to get or at least at that time.

must have been pretty easy to get if. some loser criminal was able to do it. and text her, "I've got your mother, you. know, whatever." So, if these kidnappers, you know, wanted to reach directly to. the family, seems like they could have. done it. You know, this Nimrod did it. with Annie. You don't have to go through. Savannah, whose number is definitely. going to be protected, but Annie Guthrie. seemed accessible and they didn't do it. They went through TMZ just to bolster. your point. You were going to say. something, Marie. >> I couldn't agree with you more. That's. Derek Colello from Hawthorne, California.

and I looked up when that story first. hit, I tried to find their their um. contact information and I was able to. find even some scrapings of it for both. Tom Maso and for Annie because they're. small business people and they're in the. area and he's a teacher and, you know, parents. whatever. I I could see that. I could. also see, you know, some people are. saying, "Why didn't they reach out to. Savannah?" Well, you as you mentioned, Savannah obviously is going to be. impossible to get a direct line into.

So, I I I I agree with exactly what. you're saying. Uh Derek Colello's um. hearing, by the way, is July 2nd and um. that's going to be interesting, Megan, because. after July 2nd, his case will be. adjudicated, considered adjudicated and. once once that happens, if there is anything more to the Derek. Colello saga and this case, he's going. to be able to then he'll be free to work.

with the prosecution. So, if anything is. going to come out of that, it it'll come. out after July 2nd. >> Mhm. Um I just went back to the. Nerdy Addict report. that we had in March and that we. discussed on this show. Again, it it. dovetails with a lot of what we've heard. today. But, I just want to read you what. Nerdy reported at the time. I now have two sources confirming that. one of the letters sent to the media in. the Nancy Kytola case allegedly states.

the sender apologized. claiming they So, that's now Howard. Bloom, this Briana Whitney, now of Crime. Junkie, and Nerdy all saying that that. the. that there was an apology. Again, unclear to me whether they're saying. there was an explicit I'm sorry or just. the tone of the letter was an apology. Um Howard Bloom puts "apologize" in. quotes, that that's what he was told, and Briana, who saw the note, says that.

it includes an apology. But, okay, for. whatever it's worth. He says, "The. sender apologized. claiming they did not realize how. serious her heart condition was and that. she has, quote, gone to be with God.". Now, that's different. No one else is referencing gone to be. with God or. "buried with nature" is where we are. I. can kind of see how you might confuse. those two. I don't know. They're both. sort of ethereal. a an ending of sorts. I don't know.

We'll see. According to these sources, investigators believe the message came. from the same individuals who previously. demanded Bitcoin. Though this latest letter reportedly. made no demands and was framed solely as. an apology. While this has been. validated by two independent sources, it. has not been publicly released or. confirmed by the media. And then came. Howard Bloom. So, that's I don't I just find that. interesting. Like, why does he have gone. to be with God?

And the new ones don't have that. That it was be I don't know. She was. buried in nature. But in any event, that. too confirmed back in March March how. serious her heart condition was and that. they didn't realize it. So, this. what's your bet now, Maureen, having. heard all this? That Savannah's right? That this probably these first two. really were from the kidnapper. And that this is the actual kidnapper. Either saying she's gone to be with God. or buried in nature, but feeling bad. about it or at least trying to convince.

Savannah and Co. that he or she feels. bad about it. Is that your bet that. these are legit? Or uh no, that Savannah. and possibly the authorities are wrong. >> I would say they might be legitimate in. that someone knows someone close to them. over heard them a girlfriend to some of. the guys that took her something along. those lines. Just because of the. position of that um Apple Watch. People. say that that was so specific that you. really could not have been able to know. that. And it's not like seeing it on the. nightstand. It's something like they.

ripped it off her wrist and they threw. it and it landed something like under. the dishwasher in the kitchen. Some. random spot that you would not know that. unless you were in that room, you know? >> Oh, the other thing is the pajamas. Like. I don't think you actually could know. what pajamas. Nancy owned from what we saw on the. Today show. That's the one thing I I. agree with you, James, on the Apple. Watch and the floodlight. You could get. You could get both of those if you were. a contractor inside the house.

potentially if the Apple Watch were just. in a generic place, you know, like she. charge you you see where the charger is. and that's where she charges it and. you're there as the cleaner and you. you mark that in your mind. But. what pajamas she had. that would be something, you know, you'd. have to be her housekeeper basically, I. think, to know that. And what pajamas. she was wearing when she was abducted. That's. That would convince me. >> Did you have that? >> you know, if you. >> Did you have that somewhere?

>> Yeah, that's what they're reporting that. that um. Howard is actually just referencing back. to earlier reporting that um they they. knew what she was wearing that the. outfit correctly described what Guthrie. had been wearing. >> Mhm. >> That's what he how he phrases it. >> And they went further and said she. didn't have her slippers with her. Or something too. Remember Megan way. back? >> Yeah. Yeah, that's right. So that. if that if if and you know, we don't.

know, but if they had that, that would. convince me, too. Um. what do you make of the possibility that. this is more than one person, Maureen? And the theory that. Portchmann is not the sophisticated. Bitcoin and letter writer. >> Well, with regard to the sophistication. of that letter, I've said from the. beginning that, you know, chat GPT does. great job. You could I mean, even if you. had to translate it, for example, and. then say make it sound more. sophisticated, you can do that and it.

and it does it fine. And and I know that. Harvey said, "Oh, it doesn't look like. chat GPT." I'm not sure how he would. know that, but okay, he does have a tech. team. Um. so. I think that it's it's been my opinion. since the beginning that it's probably. two people because any more than two, you're just exponentially increasing. your risk. But Jim Clemente, the um uh. Fitzhugh's old partner, he and also an. FBI profiler, he said he's seen no. evidence that there's more than one.

person. So I've been he's been trying to. train my brain to think that the. possibility does exist that it could. just be one person. If it is one person, they had to use some sort of a dolly to. move the body. It's just too heavy. Uh. even if she was slightly ambu-. ambulatory, it's it's. you know, she was bleeding presumably. from her face. And so, um. and you're going to have to do something. to restrain her if you're going to put. her in a car and take her someplace.

Um, and to your point about the. kidnappers and and Mexico and stuff like. that, the vast majority of the um, of. the um, kidnappings that we see in this country. are drug related and and by that I mean. someone has a load of dope and they get. pulled over by police and the dope gets. seized. Whoever those people are, they're still on the hook to the cartel. to pay them for the money that they owe. them. And so, often times that's what. will spark a um, a kidnapping. Now, that kidnapping in a.

situation like that, the victim will. stay with like a uh, sometimes a couple. that we've worked here, they've stayed. with a family um, and until the money is. paid and then they release them. And I'm. sure uh, James can speak to that also. Um, so. you know, going down to Mexico, they. what's happening here is is is far a. fall from that because they're not do. they're not running this operation like.

a cartel would run a um, a kidnapping because it's a hit and run, get it done, get the cash, get her out. of there. You know, that is not what. happened here. >> not only that, but James. nothing you could have done could have. changed the outcome. We never intend. That does not sound like a Mexican drug. cartel to me, but I and I am an amateur. >> Not the ones not the ones I've worked. Um, they don't speak that way. And they. don't write notes like that, frankly. So, no. But, that's just my experience,

so that's not that's not the norm. >> But, but. But, what do you make of multiple. people? Doesn't, you know, ruling out. the Mexican gang doesn't mean it's not. like a gang of two Americans. And let's. not forget about how the back door was. propped open. Propped open by like a. planter or something. >> Yeah, I've always felt. >> Well, this guy was trying to come in. through the front door. We believe he. exited with Nancy. through the [clears throat] front door. But, I think the working theory is that. he will end up getting in through the. back door since it the door was propped. open with something. >> Yeah, I've always felt it was multiple.

people. Uh I still don't you know, I I. don't know how you. um. get the guy on the porch saying she's uh. with nature and we're terribly sorry. It. Yeah, I just don't put those two. together. I think it's a team. Uh I. think it always has been. Um I don't. really believe these ransom notes are. legitimate. Um if there was any type of, you know, desire to get paid, which they. always want to get paid in these. situations, they would have extended a. lot more effort to to make that happen,

and they didn't. So, um I think it's. interesting, but um I I just I I know. scammers, and I just feel so frequently. that, you know, this is a scam. They're. playing a game. They're trying to get. paid. Um they haven't proven anything to. me. And and just to go back to your. point real quick about if they did have. specificity about her nightgown, and I know you said something like you'd. be convinced. Well, I wouldn't be. I I'd. still need to know more. I need to know. how many people went into that crime. scene. How many people would have known, you know, what she was wearing. Who did. they talk to? I mean, it it I would.

still need to go a long way before I. could fundamentally say, "Yeah, um. that's them." without them showing me a. picture of her or letting me talk to. her. Uh I'm just, you know, as an FBI, I'm not going to say to the family, "Yeah, they've got her. Let's pay. Let's. do what we need to do." I'm just not. going to do that because there's nothing. here yet that proves to me, yeah, they. had her but they had Ms. Guthrie. >> You know, you're raising good points cuz. I I'm thinking we did a a week fraud. week.

one one year when I was on vacay. We did. a pre-taped five series episodes. Uh. five episode series. That was June. of. two years ago, June of 2024. And we played, as the final episode of. fraud week, my own family's. attempted defrauding. Where my husband's. mother, as you point out, the elderly, who at the time was 86, I think 85. And. um she received a phone call from a.

hysterical woman claiming to be her. daughter. Her own daughter. Saying she'd. been in a car accident. Uh no, saying that she and her her. partner had been pulled [clears throat]. over by the cops. and accused of drunk driving. Excuse me. And that her partner had. punched out the cop. And meanwhile, she and her partner don't. drink. But like it was COVID, so like you. didn't you never knew, you know, like. people were behaving weird. >> Right.

>> Sh- So that uh he punched out the cop. and they were both in jail and they. needed to be bailed out ASAP. And could she please call could the. mother please call Diane's lawyer. And she gave her mom, in quotes, her lawyer's number, her public. defender. And Jackie, Doug's mom, called us. hysterical. She was like, "Oh my god, Diane's had this terrible incident. She. and Brad are both in jail. And I spoke with her. She's like, "I. spoke with Diane.". I'm like, "Oh my gosh, this is terrible.

What happened?". And uh it was all a fraud. It was so. sophisticated, you guys. He had at least. three people involved in the fraud with. him, different actors who called, who. played the court clerk, who who played. his assistant, who played the 1-800. rece- It was like. the amount of money they threw into. trying to get Doug's mother to It was. just crazy. >> Yep. >> And we almost fell for it. We almost. They had us. They had us on the line, for sure, James. They. you know, but for the grace of God. >> Yep. They're really good. I help clients.

every day with call spoofing and how to. avoid it, how to mitigate it, how to. calm down, you know, bring the anxiety. way down. There's an easy way to do it. Um because they're pushing the right. buttons. That's why you you you felt. that, Megan. You felt like, "God, this. sounds real." Because they're pushing. the right buttons. They know what. they're doing and there's a way to beat. them, but you got to, you know, take the. first step. >> You can't do it if you're running. You. got to pump the brakes. Can't put too much stock into those. letters. That's a good reminder. Um but.

we do know one thing, which is Nancy's. gone and someone was on that front. porch. >> That's right. >> And Maureen O'Connell says they may be. getting closer to figuring out who that. was. Team, thank you. Great to see you. again. >> Great to see you. >> Further updates to follow. Wow. Um. what a what a crazy story. I mean, like. that that's that's quite the update, right? Like Maureen's update is bigger. than anything we came to air with. That they're she's 75% sure that they're. closing in on porch man. I mean, that.

would be that would be everything. That's the that's the one who took her. I don't know whether he's the one. writing the notes, whether he's the one. who masterminded it, but clearly that's. the one who took her. And if we find. him, then it's ballgame. Still saying. prayers for Nancy. they're still, as she points out, in. agony. Uh let us know your thoughts. You. can email me, Megan, at megynkelly.com. on that or any other aspect of today's. show or the news. Look forward to. hearing from you and we will be back. tomorrow with more.