Latest Arrest Connected to Karmelo Anthony Case, Nowak Prosecutors Appeal Digwa’s Sentence, and More

Hey everyone, I'm Megan Kelly. Welcome. to the Megan Kelly show and happy. Friday. We made it through another week. Later in the show, we're going to have. our all-star panel to discuss the latest. with this Nancy Guthrie case. Are we. closer to solving this thing than we. think? Our news with Morin O' Connell. the other day went viral. Um, you know, she said she's 75% sure that they're. closing in on Porchman. So, we'll get. into it. Uh, we're also going to get in. in just a minute to the controversy in. the WNBA over Caitlyn Clark. Jason.

Whitlock has got the inside scoop on. this, but first we begin today with a. major update in the Carmelo Anthony. case. Uh there has now been an arrest, reportedly as many as three arrests down. in Texas and the feds are now reportedly. stepping in, reports Fox News Digital, following a brutal assault on a Texas. woman who was who was allegedly beaten. down by a group of suspects chanting. free Carmelo. Fox is reporting uh that.

in Long View Long View, Texas, police. have made this arrest in connection with. this alleged random attack. on a victim uh by this group of suspects. that claim uh according to Fox that they. had had said, quote, they were going to. target the smallest white girl they. could find. And they did indeed find a. white girl who appears to be severely. injured. We've got pictures of her.

injuries, um, which I'm going to show. you now. She is, we don't have her name. We do know that one woman has been. arrested for this assault. Here is the. victim whose injuries appear all over. her face and head. Her eyebrow is bloody. and looks to have a deep gash on it. The. top of her head appears to have a deep. gash and is quite bloody. There's a. picture that uh they've released of her. high heeled shoe, which none of us can. quite figure out what we're seeing, but. they appear to think it's evidence and.

has blood on it. We can cycle through. the pictures, please. Um, and you can. see some of her injury. She's wearing a. neck brace. She's clearly been attacked. This is not This is not neck brace that. you. Okay, now we do have her name. The. victim's name is Sammy Lee. This is not. the kind of neck brace, you know, we had. a car accident and we're looking to run. up our insurance bills. You can see the. blood all over this woman's face and. head and arrests are being made. The. first one is of 21-year-old Cararianne. Fuller of Long View. Uh she is facing.

assault charges and was booked into jail. on a $20,000 bond according to local uh. KYTX. And the locals are reporting at least. two other arrests as well in this case. Unbelievable. So this we don't have any. idea what the race of the perpetrators. is, though I'm going to assume it's not. necessarily white if they were looking. to target quote the smallest white girl. they could find. But this is in. retaliation.

The report is that this is in. retaliation for the Carmelo Anthony. conviction. This is insane. Carmemelllo. Anthony attacked and stabbed a young man. to death. He happened to be black and. the and the deedant is white and this. wasn't a race case despite the fact that. Carmelo Anony's family spokesperson. tried to make it one and now this small. group of people although it's growing. like the intellectual class so-called is. jumping on board of this. Oh, now we.

have a picture of the perpetrator. Yeah, she she does happen to be black. She's. there with some crazy hair. Um, blonde. ex blonde tips and dark roots and I. guess was allegedly part of this whole. thing. Now being held on $20,000 bond. So they're turning this into a race. crime. like what wasn't a race crime is. turning into a race crime because. there's a collection of people extremely. angry about the fact that justice. applied to Carmelo Anthony the same as.

it would to any other person who stabbed. another boy in the heart with no reason. Here to join us on this case and more is. our friend Jason Whitlock. He is the. host of Fearless with Jason Whitlock. Don't miss a moment. Subscribe to this. show on YouTube and follow me on Insta, Facebook, and X. When you sign your. insurance agency, for some brokers, that. is the finish line. It's a handshake. They get their commission done. Then you. may not hear again from them until it's.

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convenient, so much easier to manage. Go. to supershure.com/megan. paid for by Superure Insurance Agency. LLC, which is a licensed insurance. agency. This is so infuriating, Jason. The the. turning of the narrative around Carmelo. Anthony has been infuriating from the. start and now it's culminating in. racebased attacks as some sort of. vengeance for what the the person who. was hurt here was white. It was Austin.

Metaf who was the victim here. >> The world is upside down, Megan. And we. sit here and we're baffled like how did. we get here? And it's been a long. process and it takes a lot to understand. uh what is transpiring. But you know I I. I. what Megan do you remember the West. Memphis 3 case? West Memphis Arkansas. >> HBO did three documentaries.

>> Three uh white kids, teenagers murdered. three 8-year-old boys. And these were. all white kids. Damen Eckles, 18, 19. years old. Uh Jason Baldwin, and a Jesse. Miss Kelly. They did the murders. And. the prosecution argued that this was a. satanic child sacrifice case. That's. what they argued in court. And the jury. agreed and convicted these guys. They.

gave Damen Eckles a life sentence. HBO. jumped in and people like Johnny Depp. and Eddie Veter and other celebrities. jumped in and said, "No, this is satanic. panic and this little small town in. Arkansas has too many Jesus concerns and. these are just kids and misconstrued and. they didn't actually do it." And they. for 18 years the media and HBO HBO put.

out three different documentaries trying. to argue that these kids were innocent. and eventually they got an Alfred plea. and they became celebrities and heroes. and they got sprung from prison. They did the crime, but and the argument was like heavy. metal music and sat reading Stephen King. books had influenced these kids into. this satanic ritual child sacrifice.

deal. And Megan, I believe that the same. thing is going on with hip-hop music and. hip-hop culture. It has the same. influence over young black kids and it. has overtaken black culture. And so hip. hop culture believes that you touch this. kid, you put your hands on me, I have a. right to kill you or assault you with a. weapon of some sort. And they want the. rest of American society to bow to their.

standards. In hiphop, any sort of. disrespect can be met with violence. This is why you see so many videos of. black people say, "Don't you put your. hands on me. You put your hands on me. Don't you and see what happens if you. put your hands on me." There's a mindset. that has been uh given to black culture. and black people that's incompatible. with ChristianAmerican culture and. Christianame standards. And that's how.

so many people were running around. defending Carmelo because they've been. brainwashed. You put your hands on him. You pushed. him. And in our culture, hip-hop. culture, we can be violent and kill you. And that's how they've come up with the. self-defense case. And they've got. idiots like Dominique Alexander that. represented the family, the new Al. Sharpton. >> He's a p he's he's a convicted felon. He. he comes from this hip-hop prison. Yeah.

Pop prison hip hop culture and he's out. promoting this and and Megan, you. remember when we saw the the black kid. out in front the black man out in front. of the courthouse dancing and jumping up. and down in front of the white guy and. and it just looks crazy. But we are. going to have to accept like, hey, there. is a culture that has gone absolutely. nuts and has been influenced by this. prison hip hop and just quite frankly.

this African cuz a lot of this and I'm. telling you it's hard to understand but. I just I just had a pastor named G uh G. Craig Lewis on my show and he's been. talking about this for 30 years that. black people, American black people, their obsession with Africa and. connecting with African cultures and. from the change in their hairstyle to. the changing of just their customs and. wanting to bring that African culture to.

America. Well, we have to be honest. about Africa and African culture and how. violent and how tribal it is. And so, we're looking at an American culture. that's being influenced by African. tribalism, uh, satanic religious cults. Hip hop is. right in line with that. If you look at. the roots of hip hop and what they. brought and what they preached, I it's. it's a lot to unpack and understand, but.

it's very important that we understand. what we're dealing with so that when we. stand against it, no one can call us. racist or coons or sellouts. It's just. like, hey man, we don't want that. African culture crap here in America. We. don't want religions or beliefs that. say, uh, if you touch me, I can kill. you. We got to reject that. And I know.

you've been dealing with the slings and. arrows as have I. But we have to be even. more resolved and resolute to like, hey, this just can't stand. Everybody's at. risk here. I don't want to live in a. society where people can interpret what. I say is disrespect and then get all up. in my face and try to bait me to touch. them or have conflict with them and then. they get to kill me and and and paint me. as the bad guy.

>> Right. Um exactly right. This is and now. like to see it morph into retaliatory. attacks. It's like wait a minute. If. we're just going purely by race here, a. black person attacked and killed a white. person. If there should be retaliation, it would be the other way around. How. are now more black people attacking a. white girl as justice for this case? And. it's because Carmelo was convicted and. sentenced to prison. that we're getting.

more details now as we speak on the. other two arrested. Um they we have. their mug shots too. It's it appears to. be a group of black women who attacked a. white woman. Deay Brown and Alana. Mumfrey are the names of the other two. We're showing their pictures here. They've voluntarily surrendered now to. law enforcement. Uh according to Learian. Brown, Long View police spokesperson, each faces a charge of assault causing. bodily injury. Both were booked into. jail and released on $20,000 bonds.

according to online jail records. Again, the victim is Sammy Lee, who describes. herself as new to Long View, Texas. She. posted on Facebook on June 21st that she. was assaulted at Whiskey Jay's, a bar by. three quote random women who yelled, "Free Carmelo." Lee said she had not. interacted with those women in any way. before the assault. Um, let's see. The And now, as I. mentioned, the Long View police are in. communication with the FBI, Jason,

regarding the case. And why? Because. online conversations concerning. retaliation, division, and attacks are. increasing. So there there's a group of. people, this is sort of the Jasmine. Crockett Street version, only actual. street, not the fake street that Jasmine. pretends she has in her background. um. who are looking to like exact revenge on. random white people reportedly. I mean, they're going to have to check into this. woman's story, you know, like we don't.

know for sure whether that's what they. said and we'll see what their defenses. are. Um but if this is true, this is. deeply disturbing. This woman's injuries. are no joke either. >> Listen, uh and I'm not trying to be. provocative and look, it's it is what it. is. Black people have been convinced. that we're victims of white supremacy. We're we're not victims of our own. choices. We're we don't control our. destiny. Uh through the music, through. our education system, through everything.

the left has done, uh the identity. politics and all that, you're a victim. and you have a right to be violent. towards the people that you believe are. your oppressors. And at some point, like. we like America did uh before the Civil. War, during the Civil War, during Jim. Crow, America had a conversation with. itself. Say, "Hey, man, white people. have a racism problem that has to be. addressed head on. We now need to say.

black people have a racism problem." and. they're practicing a form of religion. that is. destroying them and now looking to. destroy the rest of America. We have to. be that direct and that honest. I get. why most people are afraid. Corporate. America doesn't want you to say that and. it could put you out of a leadership. position or or get you targeted over. social media. But if we don't have a.

real honest conversation about what's. gone on with the black church and how. it's lost course and has gone into. racial victimhood and again as a. Christian any of or those of us that. just have Christian values within it, we. don't believe in victimhood. America is the land of opportunity. It's. not the land of oppression. people from. around the world and people of all. colors aren't trying to get into America.

because it's the land of oppression. It's the land of opportunity. And and. there's a documented history of white. Christians. fighting for the freedom of black people. and black Americans and black giving. money to Africa and all this other. stuff. White people are not perfect. They're just as flawed as everybody. else. But this rap that they're like out. to destroy uh black people and black.

Americans, it's a lie. And there's all. kinds of evidence that it's a lie. And. and white people, what they've done is. said like, "Help, you adopt this. Christian culture and we're good. We. don't care what color you are." That. that is the true story of America. And. black people seem to be saying, uh, you know, we don't share those. values. Everything needs to be based on. skin color. And and you know, we're.

going to be tribal based on skin color. while being tribal like Africans over in. Africa that war and destroy uh black. people and white people. And so we we. get the the worst of of all of it. We, you know, black on black crime is out of. control. Now, black on white crime and. just the smearing of America and white. people, it's all out of control. You. know, what we're experiencing here is no.

different than what's going on in South. Africa. Uh, white people are being. targeted by black people out of racial. animous and everybody has to sit around. and be quiet and pretend like it's not. happening. Uh, I'm not going to pretend. anymore. We can't. I mean, we're taking. it all the way back to the Carmelo. Anthony case. A 17-year-old boy was. stabbed in the heart for pushing a kid. uh at a trackme.

We pushed and shoved all the time when I. was a kid. That's what kids do. They. don't stab each other in the heart. and. and a guy has stabbed and killed a. 17-year-old kid and somehow he's being. turned into the victim by politicians, mainstream uh television broadcasters. and pundits. This is insanity and and we. have to stop it. >> It's awful. It's awful. And it's like I.

truly This one's so crazy to me because. it's like we've we've almost become I. don't know in to cop. unleashes fire on a black man and then. we're going to have riots. We're going. to have weeks of media coverage putting. it on a loop. Uh it it's going to be. misrepresented and you there could even. be retaliatory violence like we just. saw. But this is this is so bizarre. This is in this case a black man killed. a white man teenagers. That's what. happened. And then was held to account.

in a criminal court of law by a jury and. a judge and a whole trial. uh like how. is there retaliatory violence against. whites? This is just bizarre and it's. some something's definitely happening. And I know you're speaking generally. You don't speak about all black people. in this way, but there's definitely a. collection that's had a very bizarre. outsized reaction to this verdict that. is showing shining a light on an. underbelly that is dark and disturbing. Um,

>> let let me say one last thing and I'm. sorry, but. >> hey, look, the indifference to what. happened to Austin Medave. >> That's just as sinful as anything else. And so the people that aren't shouting. down the idiots. And so I I I'm not I. don't want to paint a broad brush and. obviously there are black people like. myself, but black culture in general has. been so influenced by the depravity of. hip hop that that too many black people.

are indifferent about what happened to. Austin Medaf. And that's just as bad as. the people that are out uh seeking. violence and and uh harming white people. because it's that indifference that's. kind of a passive okay. Well, I get why. you did that. I get why Carmelo did. that. I get why these women went out and. attacked these these other white women. The indifference bothers me that that.

that everybody isn't screaming at the. top of their lungs, hey, there's a. problem here. Uh we can't continue to. bathe our kids. Megan, you you've got. kids. Trust me. The music that you. listen to while the child is in your. womb, when the child is growing up, it. it it affects their soul and their. mentality. And we're letting kids listen. to this depraved music. And and the. point I was making about the West.

Memphis 3 is that like white people saw. this with heavy metal music and called. it out in real time and they got pushed. back and all that other stuff, but they. they're aware like music has an. influence. that uh we don't fully understand. And. if we're going to allow all this. profanity, all this sex talk, uh, and. young kids are know all the lyrics to. this, don't be surprised that when they.

get to be teenagers, they're. participating in teen takeovers and just. doing violence and and rioting for no. reason. Their minds have been groomed. >> No, Jason, you're you're not the only. one saying that. We we've had on Dr. Leonard Saxs who is an expert in. childhood psychiatry and child rearing. He's been he's a worldwide recognized. expert in in chi children and their. psychology and so on. And he has been. making a similar point. I remember him. him using just an easy example to.

remember on our show talking about how. um because I I said to him Jason I'm. like those of us who grew up in like the. 70s and the 80s we really had no. parents. So you know like why are you so. worried about what's on TV and radio? because back then we were raised by TV. and radio, you know, like parents didn't. pay any attention to us back in those. decades. And he said, "It's different. now because you put yourself in front of. the TV or your kid in front of the TV. and the radio without you there now.". And they're hearing those kinds of.

messages that you just talked about, you. know, about like killing and violence. and sex and disrespect for authority. figures, including your parents. And the. the me like sort of the babysitter is. very very different than it was in the. 70s when it was like the Brady Bunch and. Little House on the Prairie. >> Father Know that was the worst you could. fall into. Yeah. >> Yeah. He had a good point about it, you. know. >> Yeah. The the the pop culture. actually. affirmed the values that you wanted to.

instill to to some degree. Not all of. it, but again, I grew up watching Dennis. Dominus and Father Knows Best and The. Brady Bunch and. >> My Three Sons. >> Yeah. My Yeah. Those values were like. those are good values that they're. affirming in those shows. Now, all of. pop culture is telling you screw your. parents, screw authority, change. everything. You don't even have just. change is good. change. We can believe. all all the stuff Obama basically.

affirmed that if you're changing. something, that's a good thing. Well, well, hold on. You know what? If you're. uh Megan Kelly and you're beautiful and. the change they want Megan Kelly to do. is, hey, overeat and become 200 lb. Well, that's not good change. It's it's. it's. so all change isn't good. There's some. things that were built into America that. don't need to be changed. Period. End of. story.

>> Um, forgive me for bringing up a tough. topic, but I I think it fits here, which. is Uncle Jimmy was murdered. I I can't. believe this. He was your co-host for. years. You guys came on this show. It. was during the summer cuz I remembered. I was down at the Jersey Shore when I. was talking to you both. What made you. say, you know what would add to this? I. I want to bring back Jimmy. I want a. partnership there. >> Well, you have to remember Jimmy. uh in how many years ago? Three years.

ago. Jim was still in Kansas City, Kansas. >> He was uh. >> This is a true story. >> Yeah. He was a. sergeant. >> Oh, I worked in law enforcement for 17. years. So yeah, >> a sergeant at in in in the sheriff's. department in in Kansas City, Kansas. >> And and I decided I was going to bring. him on to my television show at Fox. Sports, >> uh to play the role of my uncle on my. talk show, Speak for Yourself. And.

people thought I was crazy. And And. >> people thought I was crazy. >> Yeah. People Well, you were crazy. So. they they were But they thought I was. crazy for wanting to do it. The guy. works at a jail. He going to crack jokes. on TV now. What are you talking about? And so I had to twist arms and beg and. eventually they allowed Jimmy to come on. uh to move out to LA and appear on my TV. show. Speak for yourself. >> He was murdered recently. He was only.

64. >> Yes. >> What happened, Jason? >> Uh. three teenagers, black. uh I think got into dispute. uh with one. of Jimmy's sons earlier in the day and. circled back and shot up uh Jimmy's. house and Jimmy was sitting in his. driveway in his car about to run an. errand and got shot in the back of the.

head. Uh and yeah, it's. >> the random violence. uh that we talk about all the time and. the young kids out of control, unfathered. Again, it's like we want to. reject the fact that, you know, if 75%. of your kids are growing up in a home. with no father, that's a problem that. has to be addressed. The matriarchy is. not going to fix that. fathers have to. come back into the homes.

>> uh so that there's peace, there's an. authority figure, uh there's someone. that is a protector and a provider. Uh. you know, we want to pretend like a. single mother can do what two parents. can do. And it's just not true. And I my parents. divorced when I was four or five years. old. And I was raised primarily up until. my senior year of high school in the. home with my mother, but my dad was. always involved. And then my senior year.

of high school, I live with my dad. But. but I I'm under no illusion that, you. know, things would have been better had. my parents stayed together and that that. system produces better fruit than the. single parent fruit. But we can't talk. about it because you get called racist. or a for talking about it or you. hate women, you're you're sexist or. whatever. No, man. I I I believe the. data. I believe the Bible, but I believe.

the data even more that two parents do a. better job than one parent. Two parents. create a better neighborhood and. community than uh neighborhoods. dominated by a single parent. It it just. is what it is. But they've used race to. silence us away from just common sense. and things that are been proven over. thousands of years. >> We don't have to debate whether two. parents are better than one. We got.

thousands of years of data that says. there's been no uh society, no great. society built that wasn't built on the. back of the nuclear family. Uh, and so, you know, I guess we're going to try to. be the first and the early results, the. primaries have been decided. It's not. going well. It's it it it's if you want. to look at what single parent and the. matriarchy can do, look at the American. black community. Look at the SAT scores.

Look at the incarceration rate. Look at. the teenage pregnancy rates. Look at all. of it. >> The results are in. It doesn't work. Well, I'm very sorry for your loss, Jason. I I liked him. He was fun. And uh. I was to hear that news. >> Yeah, >> I know. I know. And you guys went way. back. I know. >> Um Okay, now we got to get to this. controversy in the WNBA with Caitlyn. Clark. I've been following your. coverage. Jason has been analyzing these. clips and what's been happening with her.

on The Fever like the Zapruder films, and I am here for it. I That's why we. first booked you. I'm like, I want him. to walk me through all of this. So, I'm. just going to lay out what my producers. put together just to get the audience up. and running and then you're going to. take it. It's so It's so fascinating. your take and I to you've convinced me. 100%. All right. So, this all started on. Wednesday. Well, it started before. Wednesday, but the latest chapter. started Wednesday when the league. released its 30th anniversary poster,

and we're showing it on the screen right. now. Caitlyn Clark, the league's biggest. star, she's responsible for huge. ratings, sold out arenas. She's not on. it. Okay. And there are recent players. on it. Uh like I think Angel Reese is on. it. Okay. Why is she on it and Caitlyn. Clark is not on it? That's the question. Some people are suggesting it's because. she it's a licensing issue. Uh that she. like that she hasn't allowed that, but. we haven't heard that from the league. itself. And it does seem weird to me. that the the WNBA wouldn't have.

permission to use Caitlyn Clark's image. Um, so we don't know. All right, because. it's absolutely baffling, but that wound. up not even being the biggest. controversy on Wednesday because in. Caitlyn's game that night against the. Phoenix Mercury, Mercury player Alyssa. Thomas lodged her fist into Caitlyn's. neck in a play where no foul was called. during the game. We're showing a still. of it right now. I'm not a sports. expert, but I mean it does seem like a. foul. Seems like a clear foul. Even I.

could see that. Now, the WNBA upgraded. the play after the fact because there. was all this outrage after the game. because nothing had been called. It was. like, well, how is that not a foul? So, then they upgraded it, which they can do. after a game has ended, not just to any. foul, but to a flagrant two foul. And. Thomas got suspended, but just for one. game. So many critics are saying, "What's that?" And she got fined. something like a pittance. I think it. was a thousand bucks and she makes 1.2. million a year. According to Caitlyn's. coach, who's going to play a pivotal. role in our discussion with Jason here.

That was not the only cheap shot by the. Mercury that night. You can see on your. screen a Mercury player fouling Clark on. a three-point attempt, not giving her. space to land safely, which I'm told. you're supposed to do. Uh people who. have played basketball say this is. exactly the type of play that can lead. to a nasty ankle injury, which is why. they often call it as a foul, but not in. this case. And there are allegations. that it's a it's a pattern when it comes. to Caitlyn Clark that that the league. and its refs allow her to to get beaten,

I mean physically beaten, not beaten in. the sports lingo without calling the. fowls because they can't stand her. The. pretty much everyone hates Caitlyn Clark. in this league. She maybe have a couple. of friends, but everyone hates her. And. you know, there are real questions about. why. Is it just normal professional. jealousy? Is it a race thing? Is it a. sexuality thing because 74% of the. league according to some reporters are.

um well, first black and then some huge. portion of them are also gay. Why does. why do they have to be gay? Why are so. many soccer players gay? And why are so. many basketball players gay with the. women? I'm saying like I don't I don't. get it. Like whatever. But in any event, they hate her. Now Caitlyn, back to this. game in which she got the punch to the. throat. She ultimately walked out of the game. like before it was over. I think it was. third quarter and they said nothing like. the announcers weren't talking about it.

was like the biggest player in the. league just walked off in the middle of. the game and then they kind of came back. up and they were like oh it's a back. injury and Jason Whitlock says no you if. you believe that you haven't been paying. attention because there is a dynamic. that caused Caitlyn Clark to walk off of. the court that day and it had in his. opinion nothing to do with her back. Okay, take it away, my friend. >> So, let me There's a bunch of things you. said. Let's The close out play where the.

woman uh is contesting Caitlyn's shot. There was a foul called on that and. Caitlyn went to the line and shot three. free throws. What they didn't review is. whether that was a reckless close out, which would have required an additional. uh uh f or free throws. But there is a. foul. That's why Caitlyn Clark went to. the free throw line and shot three free. throws. As it relates to the poster, you.

you covered that pretty well in terms of. potential licensing issue. But what what. is left out of that is like, hey, the. WNBA is controlled by this Marxist. uh mindset that hey, everybody should. get something and and you know, we got. to share things equitably, equally, blah. blah blah. And so Diana Terasi is widely. considered the greatest WNBA player of.

all time. She's white. She's not on the. poster either. And so Caitlyn Clark not being on the. poster and this is celebrating 30 years. of the WNBA and there's old players on. there, there's current players on there. the whole nine years. The greatest. player arguably in WNBA history also. isn't on the poster. And so there may. have been a licensing issue with Diana. Terasi or it may have just been this. stupidity of hey, you know, let's leave.

Terasi. Let's leave Sue Bird's not on. there. let's leave Caitlyn off and let's. showcase these other people because. that's what's equitable. And so that's. the lunacy instead of doing what's best. for business. Hey, let's put Caitlyn. Clark on here. She's got the biggest fan. base. They'll be more likely to buy the. poster. So, uh, those are the first two. things I just wanted to add a little. clarity to as it relates to the foul on,

uh, Caitlyn Clark, the fist to the neck. area. You put it down in slow motion, you you. put a steel photo up and it looks like. the worst thing in the world when you. watch it in real time. If you play uh. Caitlyn's reaction and how quickly she. got up and when she goes back down court. and you look at her and look at her. facial expressions and body movement, th. this thing's being exaggerated. It it.

and I'll make a very provocative. analogy. It's being exaggerated. the. same way Derek Schovin uh on top of. George Floyd greatly exaggerated. Derek. Schovin weighed 150 lbs. It had nothing. to do with George Floyd dying. Now, Alyssa Thomas, the player that did do. that, she's a bonafide thug. There's no. qu there's all kinds of video throughout. her career of her being ridiculously.

physical with her opponents, whether. black or white. She's a rugby. >> She does seem like a bonafide thug. Just. my own research, I know nothing about. the WNBA, but just my own research. showed like three examples where team. coaches were going jihad on her. Like, what the f with this player who's. actively hurting multiple women in the. WNBA. She's got a foul on Angel Reese. that's much worse than the Caitlyn Clark. file just just for clarity. But she's a. thug she's a rugby player. She's.

unskilled. She her game is bullying and. intimidating everybody and that's how. she gets buckets and that's how she's an. effective player. Uh the Phoenix Mercury. because of Alyssa Thomas whose wife. is on the Phoenix Mercury as well named. Dana Bonner. Uh, and Dana Bonner played. briefly last year uh for the Indiana. Fever and left and quit and basically. forced her way uh onto the Phoenix team.

so she could be with her wife Alyssa. Thomas. Well, they do have a problem. with the Indiana Fever. And they do. think that intimidating Caitlyn Clark. trying to intimidate there's a white. girl on the team named Lexi Hull. They. try to intimidate her and they play. physical with her. All of this is par. for the course for Alyssa Thomas and. Dana Bonner and the type of thug ball. that they play with everybody in the. WNBA. So, as it relates to does Caitlyn.

Clark get treated unfairly in the WNBA? Yes, she did. her first two years, her. rookie year and last year, these players. had a real problem with her and they. were extra physical with her and the. league addressed it this off season. implementing new rules called about. freedom of movement. And so the rep the. games are ref completely different and.

the players for the most part are. completely different because they got a. new collective bargaining agreement that. is paying them six to 10 times more than. they were ever making in the WNBA. And. so the the animous around Caitlyn Clark. has dissipated this season other other. than the. >> finally realized she's getting them. paid. >> Yes. And so other than uh the Phoenix. Mercury, no one has really messed with. Caitlyn Clark that way. Players that I.

saw that used to be extra aggress. aggressive with her, they're now joking. with her before the game, even during. the game, it it's all dissipated. But. most people have the old narrative from. 24 and 25, and they're applying it to. what they just saw here. And they're. also ignoring or they're unaware because. most people are passive watchers of the. WNBA. They see the highlights. They're. just not informed. There's a dynamic.

between Caitlyn Clark and her head coach. Stephanie White. They've been at each. other's throats now for two years. They. don't like each other. >> She's white, too. Stephanie, just for. the record, is is a white woman. a white. woman who like Caitlyn Clark, I'm from. Indiana, Stephanie White's one of the. greatest high school basketball players. in the history of Indiana. Like Caitlyn. Clark, she went to a home state school, Purdue, and lifted Purdue up the way.

that Caitlyn Clark lifted Iowa up. Stephanie White led Purdue to a national. championship. Then was a first round pick in the WNBA. didn't have a great WNBA career, but. then became a coach in the WNBA and has. had some success in the WNBA. She failed. as a college coach at Vanderbilt. She's. returned to the WNBA, had a little bit. of success and previously coached this. Alyssa Thomas thug and and you know,

co-signed that style of basketball. The. other thing about Stephanie White, like. Caitlyn Clark, she came out of college. with a longtime boyfriend who she. married and transitioned while in the. WNBA to the alternative lifestyle. And. she is now married to Lisa Salters, the. ESPN sideline reporter. >> That. >> black woman. So, she's married to a.

black woman, >> Lisa Salters. And there are people like. me that are following this closely. It's. like. >> they want to convert and transition. Caitlyn Clark and Stephanie White may be. a part of that. They have similar. backgrounds. You know, they were cuz. Stephanie White in her playing days and. even now is a relatively attractive. woman and she was an attractive young. athlete that had a boyfriend, got. married, blah blah. Same Caitlyn Clark.

track, same deal as Caitlyn Clark. And. they are at odds over style of play. And. and if you really watch what happened. Thursday, five minutes into the third. quarter, Caitlyn Clark had a bad play, threw the ball, turnover, didn't hustle. back on defense, and gave up an easy. layup. Stephanie White hops out of her. chair and angrily calls a timeout. The. coaches go and huddle. The players are.

sitting on the bench and there's fans. have sent me videos of like I was in the. arena. Here's what happened. You can see. it for yourself that Caitlyn Clark is. sitting on the bench with the other five. players that are in the game and she's. planning to go back into the game. Stephanie White eventually comes into. the huddle, points at uh the backup. point guard, Raven Johnson, and replaces. Caitlyn Clark five minutes into the.

third quarter. This is like, you don't. do this to your best player. You don't. do this to virtually any starter. We're. only five minutes into the third. Why am. I getting pulled out? And Caitlyn Clark, you can see by her body language, there's no uh there's no her talking to. a trainer about my back. There's no. informing. >> She's not wincing. She's not holding. back. She's not like bending over the. way we all would. You know, we. everyone's had a little back pain here. or there. >> There's Clark standing there. >> Yeah.

>> And when she walked. >> fine. >> Yes. And when she walks away, it looks. like It looks like But it's not. accurate. Two trainers are following her. when she walks away. But if if this is. the right video, you'll see the trainers. uh like the woman with the ponytail. >> Yep. >> She circles and takes a seat behind the. bench. She does not continue to follow. Caitlyn Clark. So Caitlyn Clark, >> the best player in the league, >> the biggest draw in the league,

allegedly has a back injury, but she's. getting no attention from the trainers. She's just walking back into the arena. and and then for the next. 12 minutes of real time, not game time, but just real time, the broadcast crew. never addresses where is Caitlyn Clark. She's not on the bench. She's not on the. court. They're not and and Megan, you. and I know that 12 minutes of TV time. might as well be 12 hours. You don't.

leave some issue unressed for 12 minutes. and what people they're playing the. game. You're giving the the audience no. explanation. The biggest star, the. reason why you're watching the game has. disappeared. And we're not telling you. that she's disappeared. We're not trying. to even attempt to find out why she's. disappeared. Someone had clearly told. the broadcast team, "We don't know why. Caitlyn Clark has disappeared. We don't. want you to address it." And so it. wasn't really until the start of the.

fourth quarter that they came out with. this weak explanation of Caitlyn Clark. won't return. It's a back injury. And. then they show an edited video of. Caitlyn leaving and and paint. You can. see her grimace. You can't see her. grimace. They're just lying. And so the. story. >> but bottom line for us like what? So why. why like to me you're telling me she had. a hissy fit and took her ball and went. home because she wasn't getting played.

Like this is an example of Caitlyn. behaving like a spoiled brat. >> Yes. Because she is and most players. with her talent are most players with. her talent and success and what she did. at Iowa and it has to be coached out of. them. And that is where I'll defend. Stephanie White to some degree. She's. trying to coach the brattiness out of. Caitlyn Clark. Caitlyn loves to uh. cheerlead on the court. She loves to.

tell the crowd what to do and she loves. to tell the officials what to do. And. this has been going on since high school. and college. Uh you her dad would be at. Iowa games and they'd show him on camera. telling Caitlyn, "Hey, shut up." And you. know, mind your own bit. This is just. part of a personality quirk that Caitlyn. Clark has. Doesn't make her the worst. person in the world. It makes her a. person that needs some correction. And. she's getting it from someone she. doesn't respect. Stephanie White.

They're at each other's throats. And. Caitlyn Clark walked out. She'd had. enough. Walked off. And you know, bad. explanation. and they eventually concoct. after 12 minutes of trying to figure out. what to say. Uh, but no one wants to. talk about that dynamic because they. just want to talk about Alyssa Thomas. and Caitlyn, you know, stabbed her. >> these hens like it's like, okay, a lot.

of drama with these ladies. It's a. little much for me. But you convinced me. because on one of your shows uh earlier. in June, you showed the moment it was. after a June 10th game. We pulled it. from these are clips we got from you and. your show. Um June 8th, sorry. There was. a game and first I'm going to do what. you did, which is show Caitlyn Clark's. game-winning shot. Um which was over the. Washington Mystics. Thanks to the shot, they won. Here, let's watch it.

>> Here we go. She's running. There we go. She's got the ball. It's a three. It. goes in. It's beautiful. They win. Okay. So, this should be a huge moment. Doesn't look that huge. She's kind of. walking around. All right. Doesn't. exactly look like, you know, when the. Knicks won. And then you found this. video of her walking by her coach. Stephanie White, which you would expect. them both to be jubilant. But here's. what's happening. She walks by. It's a. low It's a low high five. She barely she.

doesn't. >> no eye contact. >> look at her. >> No eye contact from either one of Yeah, >> that's that's pretty good evidence. I. would say they that they don't they. don't like each other. There's another. incident you showed where um then so so. that Caitlyn got uh they called a foul. on Caitlyn that you showed and you said. it was a call. Caitlyn actually. didn't foul anybody. It was like they. shouldn't have called this. And then.

Stephanie White, the coach, got. interviewed at halftime in the spot. where we would have expected Caitlyn. Clark to be giving the interview. You. pointed out on your show. So, it's kind. of odd that the coach took over the. interview. But, >> okay. So, what does she do? Does she say. that was a call? Caitlyn did. nothing wrong. Like, these refs are out. of control. Nope. This is what she says. in SAT 19. >> Fouls are frustrating. What are you. going to tell your group just to adjust. to that this next half and not lose the. physicality? >> We got to be disciplined. We got to be. more disciplined. I mean, we're fing.

when it's unnecessary because we're in. poor position to start. >> H. So, she basically threw her under the. bus. Jason, so she Why doesn't she like. Caitlyn? >> Right. Backing up. Backing up. >> They are. uh Look, I'm I'm sorry for saying this, Megan. They're women. They don't support. each other. >> and they compete with each other. They. compete with each other. And so. Stephanie White was Caitlyn Clark 20. some odd years ago and again she was the.

hometown hero and uh there's some. jealousy and look there there's a player. that she that Stephanie White can't get. to submit to her style of play. Uh and. that's where Caitlyn Clark is right that. Stephanie White's style of play doesn't. work for Caitlyn Clark. It's not the. right style. and Caitlyn Clark won't buy. in and so they just dislike each other.

uh as and they're competing with each. other and and Stephanie White thinks. look you know I could have been you or I. was you and I know what you should do. and Caitlyn Clark's like not with that. stupid style of play you're talking. about and you know Lisa I'm sure Caitlyn. thinks Lisa Bluer was a better coach. than her and they just the Indiana Fever. have surrounded Caitlyn Clark with the. wrong people including the head coach. They haven't managed a a superstar. It's.

like there was a very very beautiful. young smart lady that was on this news. station that she was a superstar. and they just didn't know how to manage. her at Fox News and she had to go. independent to really really succeed. Fox. >> and. >> Fox did okay. I'm not sure about the. next place. >> Well, all right. NBC. They just didn't. know how to manage her and she had to go.

independent. I'm sure you can relate to. that. You've you've heard that story. before, haven't you? >> Yeah. I will say it's a lot easier to go. independent as a news anchor than I. think it is as a basketball player. But. >> there you go. >> That's the business she's chosen. So, good luck to them all. Honestly, these. are some of the reasons why I don't. watch the WNBA. I don't really watch any. sports, but I do watch Jason Whitlock, >> and all of you should too because. honestly, like your breakdowns of these. games have been so entertaining. Uh, I'm.

here for it. Thank you, my friend. Great. to see you. >> Thank you. >> All right, up next, what CBS News is now. reporting about who the first ransom. note in the Nancy Guthrie case was. addressed to. That and much more on the. very latest as this case may be. changing. Stand by. Hey, thanks for watching today's full. episode. If you're new here, throw us a. subscribe. See what you think. Stay in. touch. There's plenty more goodness. where this one came from. As always, we.

really do value your feedback. So, email. me, too. Megan megnancell.com. or just leave a comment down below. I do. read them. I meander over and I scroll. through and I find them very. entertaining and really appreciate the. feedback. But in any event, join the. community by becoming a subscriber so. you miss nothing. We value your support. We may not always agree on positions, but as you know, I'm very open-minded to. people who disagree with me. That's how. I learn. So, thanks. And thanks for. trusting us to always talk about it.

openly, honestly, and with provocative. conversations. Our sponsor, the. Electronic Payments Coalition, says. Washington politicians are always. getting in your wallet and that now. they're messing with your credit card. They say your credit card and the. security it offers are under attack. and. that senators Dick Durban and Roger. Marshall want to change the nation's. payment system to benefit corporate mega. stores like Walmart and Target at the. expense of everyday Americans. Credit. cards can keep your payments secure and.

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a moment, but we have got breaking news. out of the UK and the Henry Novak case. that we have got to show you. A jury. last month found Vicram Digua guilty of. murdering 18-year-old Henry. He was. sentenced to life in prison with a. minimum of 21 years that must be served. Now, prosecutors are appealing that, saying the sentence is too lenient. I. mean, it's very rare for prosecutors to. have to appeal saying the sentence is. too lenient, but they're doing that here. because while a life sentence sounds.

real, the 21-year minimum is concerning, and they're apparently concerned that it. actually will be all he serves, which. would clearly not be enough for what. this guy did. Um, this is because Digua. clearly lied about Novak racially. attacking him. He let him die and bleed. out on the street saying to police that. Henry had attacked him based on his. race, the fact that he's a seek and.

Henry was bleeding out steps away. He. let that happen. He tried to hide from. authorities that he was the one who had. stabbed Henry in their fatal encounter. over and over and over again as Henry. had tried to run away from this maniac. and was getting stabbed in the back of. the legs. Now, we've detailed many of. Digua's lies about the case on this show. previously, and we've even showed you. all the falsehoods that his brother made. in his 999 call. That's the UK's version.

of 911. We have real questions about why. the brother is not under arrest. Seriously. But now we have Digua himself, the. actual murderer on tape in police body. cam footage that has just been obtained. by the BBC and put out on their website. This is Vicram Digua, the one who had. repeatedly stabbed Henry. Well, as you. watch this, you keep that in mind. He. had just repeatedly stabbed him. Uh here. he is directly telling the police that.

Henry Novak racially attacked him, which. is a lie. Again, zero zero proof of that. as Henry is steps away receiving CPR. Watch. >> the gentleman that's on the floor with. my son. >> I'm like, don't record me. >> Pushed my turban off my head, started. grabbing my hair. So I'm a seat obly and. he started grabbing my hair started. dragging me around and obviously from. there then obviously altercations.

happened my brothers then seen it. stopped it and that's when he then. started stumbling around started. climbing around all these sort of bits. and bobs and stuff like that so. literally I saw him from there from the. get go from there I saw look mate you. clearly are obviously drunk I said to. him carry on with your date he said that. and then he started just escalating the. situation call me and all this sort of. stuff and this isn't the first time. we've had something like this happen. here again we've lived here for since. when four or five. >> Okay, so that's him saying, um, he.

grabbed me by the turban. I said, "You're clearly drunk." By the way, Henry wasn't. Um, and then he called me. and they bleeped it out there. But it. was it's the the I I get I guess it's. just as offensive in the UK as the. n-word is over here, P A KI. And um he. said that's what he was called by Henry. A lie. Lies. All lies. He didn't grab. you by the turban. He wasn't drunk. and. he didn't call you that word. Like these. are all lies. Um, in the next clip, Digua finds time to complain about the.

police lights, which he finds slightly. irritating to his eyes and declines to. tell the authorities that Henry Novak is. bleeding out at this very moment because. the CPR is not going to save him. You. see, he's bleeding to death internally. because you stabbed him. Watch this. >> Especially in that in that moment. You turn the flashes off. Sorry. >> We're caught on the right. >> So, I'm going to move over here then so. it's not too much in my eyesight. So,

this is when he got me in the face a. fair few good times as well. >> Where do you live, sir? >> Okay. So, you you have an altercation. with this guy? >> Yeah. >> This isn't the first time we've had. altercations during Not even. altercations. We had people racistly. attack us during the morning which my. hair started grabbing my hair or start. punching me and all this sort of stuff. >> Okay. >> And then. >> Do you know how he's got that that that. wound then? How's he got that wound?

>> Well, so or he's got you said he's got. blood on him. How's he how's he. >> must have been where we punched him but. he did fall over here. So he was. climbing all over these bins and stuff. like that and then he's fell over and. then landed onto that car. Okay. Sir, >> must have been when we punched him. That's why he's bleeding. He knows full. well he has stabbed him five times. He. He stabbed him. He's bleeding to death.

The time codes would later show us that. Henry had stopped breathing 13 minutes. prior to that. He. He's dying. He's possibly dead. And here. he's still misleading the police. officer. Here we see the police officer telling. Digua he's going to be arrested. Oh, and. by the way, before we move on, in that. clip also, you heard Digua going on. about how he's been multiply he's been. attacked multiple times, racial attacks. multiple times. Um, this is where he got.

me in the face several times playing the. victim. We've been we've had racial. attacks before, he goes on, sure, sure. you have. you've been perpetrating them. because there's absolutely no reason to. this moment to understand why you. attacked and killed Henry Novak other. than possibly his race and your own. grievance. Um, again, all lies bought hook, line, and sinker by the police as Henry lay. dying. Here we're going to see the. officer telling Digua that he's going to. be arrested on suspicion of attempted. murder. But notice one thing, Digua not.

handcuffed. Watch. >> Okay, right. This is really important. Okay. Um the time now is. >> uh 11:55. >> Okay. It's important, mate. All right. At this time, I'm arresting you on. suspicion of attempt murder. Okay. Do. not have to say anything. Remain harm. your defense. If you don't mention when. question something may later anything. you do, so be given evidence. Okay. The. necessities are for a prompt and. effective investigation. Okay. And to uh.

for any further harm and injury, >> you've got your side of the story, mate. We don't know what's going on here. Okay. So, we just need to we need to. find out. Okay. >> Start sure what's going on here. I've. gone nine for attempt murder with the. gentleman that I've um run through. Have. we got a van at all that I can uh get. him down to Central?

>> Yeah. Uh, and indeed it would be actual. murder, not attempted because Henry. died. And as the video ends, Digua again. repeats the lie that Novak racially. attacked him. Watch. >> Okay. And we'll get it all sorted. All. right. I'm not saying you've done. anything, mate, but we need to find out. what's happened. Okay. >> I've been I know. I know. Okay. >> I know. I've been raally. We don't know. what's going on, mate. He's.

The the video captions read, "He does. not finish his sentence." The police. officer, he's he's about to give an. update on Henry. And based on the BBC's. reporting, we we now know it took police. eight minutes to find Henry's stab. wounds. Just one of them, the one into. his lung, took them 8 minutes. They. reportedly took off his clothing once. they realized that there could be and. obviously had been catastrophic injuries.

and were apparently shocked. shocked to see him bleeding out. Um. it's all because they believed this man. and his brother and their false claims. from the moment they arrived on scene. And while they found and there was. testimony that the police really. couldn't have done anything to save. Henry, he was he was too. catastrophically injured. Uh so even if. they had noticed that he'd been bleeding. out and that he'd been repeatedly.

stabbed from the second they got there, that they probably couldn't have saved. his life. I guess we'll never know. Moreover, what happened in Henry's last moments. was he was treated like a criminal. He. was handcuffed. He was dismissed. His. complaints that he'd been stabbed were. ignored and argued with and overruled by. that same police officer we heard. talking to Vicram Digua, his murderer. So he was ignored. He wasn't believed. He was in clear distress. It was.

overlooked. And Vicram Digua. was believed hook, line, and sinker. Everything he said was believed. It was. accepted until Henry died. And then they. started to re-evaluate. and ultimately had to arrest him without. even putting cuffs on him because, you. know, he he was a racial minority. That's that's what it came down to. They. in the UK have been operating under. these principles for quite some time. For quite some time. We've covered the.

the rapes of the young girls there, the. white girls for the most part by Muslim. immigrants. Didn't didn't pay any. attention to it. In fact, it actively. worked to cover it up for years because. of skin color, because of racial. sensitivities, possibly religious. sensitivities. It's absurd. Crime is. crime. It can be done by either race, any race, against another. And these. these cops in the UK walked right into. this thing primed to believe the Vicram.

Digas of the world and to see the Henry. Novaks as the bad guys. I don't even. know what it's going to take to re. revisit this to to to eliminate this. It's it's Henry's death and the. embarrassment they faced. It's not. enough. That's they're not going to. change. This is like this is a sick. ideological perversion of the mind that. like we need a whole new generation to. come into policing in the UK and and.

replace these people because this is. just it's too dangerous right now for. young white men in particular. And that's that tape is embarrassing. It's yet another black eye for the. police um and and the system that. allowed this. And I agree with them, the. prosecutors, they should pursue that. 21-year minimum because it should be. much, much higher. That that guy and his. brother and the mother, let's not forget. she hid the murder knife and she was. found guilty of doing that, too. So, I.

mean, it's a criminal family. that's been getting away with their lies. over and over again. Who knows how many. other people they've hurt. I really I'd. love somebody should be doing a deep. dive on that in the UK press right now. What other cases have they been been. involved in? Have they brought any civil. suits? What has their story been? I'd. love to know because they seem to be. pathological to me. Um, poor Henry and. poor Henry's family. At last, the truth is known. The body. cams show exactly how negligent the.

police were and how biased they were. And um, you know, it's it's not unlike. what we talked about with Jason. Whitlock. Like, it's some sort of a. sickness. It's like a mind sickness. around the issue of race and minority, you know. And my only question is as you. know, whites head into the minority, because we will be in the UK and here in. the next 15 years or so, um, is it going. to work the other way? Is there going to.

be a a benefit of the doubt you get when. the minority is white and you happen to. be a white person? Somehow I doubt it. By the way, speaking of our talk with. Jason, uh it just broke that Caitlyn. Clark is not going to play this. Saturday, saying that her back injury is. still preventing her from being out. there. Is it her back injury or is it. her quiet punishment from her coach for. quitting the game as Jason theorizes? No. proof of that, just his opinion. But she.

s she didn't look like she was in a lot. of pain in that one video. Um in any. event, that's the update from the UK. We're going to take a quick break. We're. going to come back and we're going to. talk about the latest in the Nancy. Guthrie case because we just found out. that Harvey Lean just got another note. from the man who claims he knows who the. kidnapper is and has an update on how he. can prove it. You might already own a. firearm, but what if you could start. with less lethal methods to avoid the.

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identities of NY's abductors. Okay, this. is this person. It's confusing, but just. stay with me. There were two so-called. ransom notes by the person the FBI. apparently reportedly claims was the. real abductor that went first to Harvey. Leven at well to TMZ and a bunch of. local Tucson news stations. That was. right after Nancy was taken the first. week. The second week after Nancy was. taken, Harvey Levan at TMZ started to.

receive other emails from some dude, would you just call him the friend of. the kidnapper? This is just made up. We. we we have no idea whether he knows the. actual kidnapper or not and or whether. they're friends. It's just a good short. form. The friend of the kidnapper saying, "I. know who has her." Suggesting it was. multiple two two people. suggesting. though not explicitly that it may have. been south of the border that they had. her and suggesting he had seen her. Um.

virtually everybody we've had on thinks. that that guy is and many if. not most think that the first notes are. too but they appear though it's. not confirmed. This is also not unknown. that they appear to be different people. writing the notes. The first two notes. 100% are connected, you know, demanding. ransom and then then we heard earlier. this week the second one was more like. she died, sorry. Those two definitely.

included the same uh identifying. information and and reportedly the same. Bitcoin address account because uh the. authorities were satisfied it was the. same person. And this new guy, he keeps. asking for Bitcoin to reveal his. information, too, and continues to put. the same Bitcoin account in all of his. correspondents. Although Harvey says in. this latest one, he changed the Bitcoin. demand or the the account, but made a. reference to the one he'd been using. just to prove it was the same guy. Now,

this guy this time, the friend of the. kidnapper, uh, is claiming that he has. footage of Nancy and the main kidnapper. Again, intimating that there's more than. one. He's got actual video foot video. footage of Nancy. Okay. Plus, CBS News, the separate matter, is now also. reporting that the first ransom note. ever sent in this case was addressed. directly to Savannah. Now, that's the.

first we've heard that. remember that. came in again, as I said, to TMZ and. also to local news stations and had. demands. They haven't said a lot about. that one specifically because that. that's the mother lode right there. That's the one, if this really is the. real dude, this is the email that made. them believe that. It's the one that. allegedly described what Nancy was. wearing, described the location of her. phone. Sorry, her Apple Watch. And also, um,

what's the third thing? Oh, describe the. flood light on the outside, the broken. flood light on the outside of the home. And now, this is the first we've heard. that that note was sent directly, it was. addressed directly to Savannah. Uh, CBS. News reporting. Do we have that actually? Yeah, here it is. Here's CBS Evening. News reporter Jonathan Vigliotti. reporting this stop 51. The note was the. second of two that investigators believe. were sent by the same person in the days.

following Nancy Guthri's disappearance. February 1st. Sources tell CBS News the. first note was written directly to. Savannah reading in part, "Hello, Savannah. We have your mother Nancy.". The message included a ransom demand and. described the exact location of NY's. Apple Watch inside her bedroom. A detail. investigators never made public. Chilling. Joining me now, James. Fitzgerald. He is a former supervisory.

special agent for the FBI. He's now the. co-host of the Cold Red podcast. And for. the first time on this show, John Kelly. John's a veteran criminal profiler and. psychotherapist. His profiling expertise. has been used in well-known cases such. as the Green River killer. That case. involved a serial killer who was. convicted of murdering 48 women. He also. helped contribute to the solving of the. Golden State Killer in 2018, helping. find a man who had committed 13 murders. across the state of California. James, John, thank you both so much for being.

here with us today. And John, welcome to. the program. >> Thank you so much for having me, Megan. Thank you. >> Annie Kelly is a friend of mine. Um. And you know what? Our cousin, Mr. Fitzgerald here, he's all right. >> That's right. You get basically you're. you're figuring out my whole method for. how people get booked on this show. Moren O'Connell. I mean, I got my quiet. lipmus test. Um, okay. Let's talk about. this. So, James, I haven't heard from. you since um we learned the details of.

the second note. Okay. We'll get to. Harvey in that news in a minute, but I. want to prioritize the actual news about. the possible real kidnapper. And I'm. only saying that's not my judgment. That's just Savannah thinks those first. two notes were real. And I know. Savannah. She's very smart. She's a. lawyer herself. And I'm telling you, there's no way Savannah thinks those two. notes are real if the FBI has told her. they don't think that they're real. Like. they they I I believe the FBI told her.

we think they're probably authentic. That's why she believes it because I. just don't think she would deviate from. what the FBI is telling her. She would. realize she didn't have the expertise. Um, so and and Harvey Lean is reporting. that the FBI told him they believe those. first two notes are are real, meaning. from the real abductor/kidnapper. That doesn't mean they are. They're just. saying we're distinguishing between. those two and all the rest. Well, what. we learned earlier this week is what the. second note from the so-called real.

abductor actually had in it. Uh Howard. Bloom had some exclusive reporting on it. that set off a firestorm of reporters. who had apparently known and been. sitting on it um to tell us what exactly. was in there. The best summary I've. heard is from Brianna Whitney. She she. now works as a crime reporter for Crime. Junkie, which is a podcast. But at the. time, like up until recently, she worked. for the sister news outlet of Kol, the.

one that received. the bo both notes. And she said in that. capacity, she actually had eyes on both. notes, that she's read them both. And. here is how she described the contents. of the second note, which I'd love to. get your thoughts on. Stop 52. >> I have spent months and months covering. the Nancy Guthrie case, boots on the. ground. And in my former role before I. came to Crime Junkie, I was made aware. of what these ransom notes said as I was. reporting on the case. I've seen them.

with my own eyes. So, I want to actually. provide more context as to what that. second note said. The way that this note. was written, it's written as we like we. didn't know this, as if it was some sort. of team or whoever was involved in this. It said, "We did not fully grasp the. seriousness of her physical condition.". It went on to say that they never. intended to hurt her during all of this. They continued and said, "She perished. shortly after she was taken. They. believe that it was heartrelated." And.

then what the reports were confirming. earlier today that she was buried with. nature. And maybe the most important. part of the second ransom note, it said, "Nothing you could have done could have. changed the outcome. We are truly sorry. >> Your thought your thoughts. >> Um along with being uh first of all. Megan, great to be back with you. Along. with being a criminal profiler, I'm also. a forensic linguist and I cut my teeth. on the unib case. Got my master's degree. at Georgetown after that. So I've been.

dealing mostly with language uh in. cases, you know, since the mid 90s and. I've helped, you know, resolve a bunch. of them to identify anonymous authors, whatever. Uh, and the first thing I. always want to understand when looking. at something like this, we're using the. word note. You did and the the reporter. that you showed. I think what we're. describing though is an email. Correct. Well, all I know is that in the case of. TMZ,

they were uploading it on the tips. website part of the TM, you know, so. like that was one of the ways that they. were reportedly masking who they were is. like you go on there and you upload it. and it's unidentifiable. So, I'm not. sure. I'm not sure. I know the friend. the friend notes are being described by. Harvey as as emails. As for the original. one and two, those I don't know. >> All right. And the content is what we. would be looking at here. Uh but the.

question is I would still want to know. how they are being uh transmitted, how. they are winding up. This would have. been so so easy for the kidnappers and I. use that word loosely here uh from day. one, from night one to leave some kind. of a note on the table. we have your. mother, we want money, we'll call you or. this Bitcoin account, whatever they. would set up. You know, there are so few. kidnappings for ransom in this country. Uh I mean legitimate kidnapping for. ransom. We've been over this before, Megan. I know, but it's just it's just.

so rare. Lindberg, Frank Sinatra Jr., you know, Sydney Riso in early 90s, uh. Exxon executive. They are so rare. And. then now we have these notes which may. be posts, which may be emails, and all. we're getting is snippets. So, it's hard. for me as a forensic linguist. I in the. back in the day when I was working cases. in the bureau, I would have the entire. message, including with uh uh you know, every case, Daniel Pearl, DC Sniper. In. fact, in DC Sniper, I'll never forget. there was a leak because some journalist.

had a source and in the tarot card, they. repeated u uh the words, "I am God." Uh. where I happened to uh see the tarot. card, the actual one, it said, "Call me. God." A big difference. It's a it's a. reference to a movie with a sniper who. went by the nickname of God, power of. life and death. So I want to be careful. that we don't necessarily know the exact. language in these notes, in these posts, in these emails, whatever they are. But. having said all that, >> um I am still highly skeptical of their.

providence, of their of their validity, of their legitimacy. And I would say. this, you know, the investigators would. be remiss not to follow up on them, go. through all the, you know, computer. analysis they can do to find out where. these are originating, whatever. Look at. language features. I hope there's a. forensic linguist within the bureau or. someone they've contracted to come in. and look at the actual raw language. contained therein. Maybe that could help. male, female, uh, uh, you know, native. speaker of English or not. You know, do. the dollar sign go before or after the.

number? All things that that which may. indication of a European possibly. So, there's so much they may have there, but. I I see no reason at this point in time. for new notes or whatever we're calling. them to be coming in. And and this. person, I I'll leave it at this for now. This person is really taking a risk. saying, "I know who did it. I know their. names, addresses, and ages." And just. send me this. I don't know if he still. wants the one Bitcoin or not. I'm. confused about that part. But. >> he does. I think. >> which I think is $61,000. I just looked. it up. USD, US currency. and um not a.

whole lot of money. It would be a nice. quick payday for him. The family. wouldn't have to be putting, you know, all that much out. But this this doesn't. hold water for me. Again, investigators, I'm talking to you now. You have to. follow through on this. I get it. But I. don't put a whole lot of weight in this. What's the purpose at this point in time. with something new and to of all places. TMZ nothing against those guys there. send it directly to the family which. allegedly the first note went to or the. FBI but a cell phone hidden somewhere.

it's almost like some kind of Dungeons. and Dragons game being played at this. point and I think it's by an. opportunist. >> What do you think? I'd love to get your. thoughts overall, John, but can I just. ask you specifically first about that. news that that first alleged ransom note. was directed to Savannah specifically? >> Look, I have a whole I have a really. hard time with it. Um, I mean, I can. understand them using Savannah's name,

but you know, as soon as they make this. privy to the press in in the way they. did, I mean, man, you've got everybody. standing to attention, every law. enforcement agent in the area and around. the country, and I just uh I just don't. I don't really get with it. I. understand, you know, we know where the. watch was. We described where the watch. was. Uh we're talking about the light. outside,

you know, and uh it having a problem. We're describing her pajamas. But I. really really Or the clothes they said. she left with. I mean, I really have a. problem with the whole thing. It's. either an extremely unsophisticated guy, an extremely stupid kind of guy, but as. far as being a professional kidnapper, or have done kidnappings in the past, I. would certainly say no way. No way. I.

mean, this guy's dripping. of rookie, you know, dripping of stupid. rookie as far as I'm concerned. Uh, I. don't know. The tape on the porch. >> I'm sorry. >> Go ahead. Why? What draws what leads you. there? >> Well, I mean, there's just no. sophistication here. I mean, why would. you tell the world, you know? It's like. Jim was kind of talking about, you know, if you if you want to do a kidnapping or. something, you want to get the person. there and they're really not a person to.

you. They're an object. They're an. object for money. You've objectified. them. So, you're going to grab that. person, take that person as quick as you. can. You're not going to spend 40ome. minutes in the house. and you're going. to take off with that person. You're. going to already have it set up how. you're going to make contact. You're. going to try and make contact in the. most private way you possibly can. because you don't want other people. involved. And you're going to try and lower your. risk if you're a professional and you. have some sophistication and you've been.

around. And I I see none of this here. I. see like somebody on a billboard. broadcasting all over the place. Hey, you know, I've got I I've got Nancy. Guthrie over here, Savannah, and uh you know, I want a bunch of money. for her and I want four million. You. know, I'll give you a discount if you. give me the money on Thursday and if not. I, you know, I'll have to wait till. Monday, but I want it Monday and I want.

six million, you know. Uh, so I I think. that's very very uh this is all very. interesting to me. It's it. >> you know, some of it looks pretty. stupid. Um, >> and and I've got a question. Um, and and. I don't want to interrupt you, Megan, but I've got a question for uh Jim. And. um, you know, he's a he's he's. specializes in linguistics.

Jim, you and I know the type of. personality. pretty much that grabs women like that. I mean, they're usually psychopathic. kind of personalities, you know, that's going to, you know, show up at 2:30 in the morning, break in. to this 84 year old woman's house. You're going to have a mask on. You're. going to have a gun hanging from your. groin. You're going to go in and you're going.

to wake her up. you're going to startle the hell out of. her. I don't know how the woman didn't. die uh from shock or from a heart attack. with seeing this, you know, uh and being. woken up like this. So then you're going. to spend 40 minutes in there doing. whatever you're going to do. Then the next thing you know, this woman. is being taken from her house. Okay. Now, I'm not hearing or I have heard.

nothing was taken from her house, right? The only thing they pretty much that I. heard was stolen was her. Okay. So, now. she's. >> I haven't heard I've heard the same. >> So, she's being taken from her house, right? So, now I'm not hearing about. clothes missing that a kidnapper would. need to keep her in. I'm not hearing. about medication that a kidnapper would. need to keep her alive. I'm not hearing about any kind of. sanitary stuff that a woman that's going.

to be kept in captivity for a number of. days before she's traded for money is. missing. I don't I don't I don't hear. about anything at all. I I I'm I I I'm. not, you know, hearing about shoes. I. don't know if the lady left in shoes. Okay. All. >> Savannah said no shoes. >> Okay. No shoes. Right now, some. kidnapper here. Right. So now this guy. is hauling her a bloody mess. Okay, this.

poor old woman who has been grabbed in. such a cruel, horrific way from her bed. and being hauled out of that house is a. bloody mess and probably right from. where the blood drops. She probably was. dumped into some kind of vehicle. My. thinking only. Okay. And some of the. people in our group. Okay. So bottom. line there, what kind of person are we. dealing with? To me, this has psychopath.

written all over it in my mind. Okay, now all of a sudden there's a second. note and you're a linguistics guy. Okay, and I'm a linguistics guy, too. All. right, so now we're looking at this guy. hauling her away in the first note. He's. talking all dollars and what he wants. for it. And now reportedly ended, John, the first note reportedly ended. according to TMZ with the words or else. like you will you will give us this.

money and said or else. That was not. number one. Keep going. >> What is this? So anyway, so now we got this cruel. scumbag. I'm sorry. Okay. And this lady. is hauled away. And now we get a second. note. Now, the first note, if you look at the. words, they're what I would expect from. a psychopath. You know, that an. unfeillings kind of guy. I mean, there's, you know, there's three.

different uh, you know, types of primary. intake senses when it comes to. linguistics that are more or less used. consistently. You know, one is visual, one is. auditory, and the other's feelings can. kinesesthetic. Okay. I have not met a. psychopath yet that has a kinesthetic. primary index sense. In fact, I have not. found a psychopath yet that feels hardly. anything. I I and and believe me, I know. a couple of them and I'm up close and.

personal because I study them and they. know it. They. we have an agreement. Now, the reason. for this is they don't know. They really. don't do guilt or remorse. I mean, they've told me right to my face, John, I can't feel guilt or remorse. It's it's just that simple. Now, how. much is genetic? Yes, they were abused. growing up, too, but I do believe. there's that slight genetic piece. Now,

going on, we have this guy now, this. cruel man that did this. He's turning. around. and he's saying more or less kind of but. he's not saying exactly sorry but it was. not intentional. Okay. She perished. I. have never heard one of these guys. These are hard guys. They don't use. words like perished. >> No one does. >> She's dead.

>> It's a weird word. >> She's dead. Okay. I mean these guys I. said are coming across. All right. Yeah. And not just that, but like you know. that nothing you could have done would. have saved her. Trying to make the. family feel better. Um just like sort of. soft softening it all. Hold on. Um I had. it right in front of me, but yeah. Yeah, here it is. We believe it was heart. related. She's been buried with nature. We never intended to hurt her. She. perished shortly after she was taken.

Nothing you could have done could have. changed the outcome. We did not fully. grasp the seriousness of her condition. I take your point, John, which is what a. difference in tonality in approach. And. you know what fits what Okonnell was. saying yesterday and James was here too. um was. that's a fraudster. That's how a. fraudster does like they try the one. tack like brass knuckles that didn't get. a payment. So now they're all like, "Oh,

we're like the sweet kidnappers who we. just want to let you know something. terrible happened. It was totally. unforeseen." They didn't reiterate their. demand reportedly for money in that. second note, but that was their take. Like, no, it's the grifter back trying. method number two to get cash. >> and who knows from. >> break into the house. Breaking into the. house early in the morning. Sorry. Go. ahead. >> That was intentional. >> Go ahead. I'm sorry. Go ahead.

>> Thank you. >> Go ahead, Fitz. >> Uh, and who knows from Eastern Europe, from uh, you know, subsaharan Africa or. it could be someone, you know, very much. local. Uh, these these particular. communications, that's what I'll call. them instead of notes per se. Uh, they. are they they are flowery all over the. place and they really don't make any. sense. The problem is we don't have much. of a baseline of actual kidnappings in. this country as I described earlier. Uh, yeah, parental things and custody. things. We have human trafficking, those. things, but a for-profit sort of.

stranger kidnapping, they are so rare, they are so out of uh out of the. ordinary that we really don't have that. template uh in terms of what kind of. notes are they going to have. The. closest we've come to it was uh the John. A. Ramsey case in uh in 96 in uh in. Boulder, Colorado. But of course, that. was never actually a kidnapping, but. someone took, you know, uh you know, the. time to write a three-page note. there. was actually a practice note put in the. trash and then the other note came out. with the kind of demands how much money. you'll do this you'll do that there was. really none of that here and and it was.

very peacemeal and and almost. nonsensical from the beginning so I I. I've always said Megan and on your show. back in February multiple days in a row. this was a a successful abduction that. we can criticize all we want in and out. 40 minutes uh you know taking something. not taking something but um but it was a. failed kidnapping and then I posited you. know, after a few weeks, it never was. meant to be a kidnapping. This was done. for some other reason, something. personal. Uh, uh, John mentions, you.

know, psychopathy. You got to be. careful. John knows this. You can't, of. course, psycho do a psycho val without. actually doing testing. But, uh, I'm not. even ruling out a mania that this guy. was a stalker perhaps of Savannah and he. couldn't get to her. The building she. lived in in Manhattan was too well. protected, kids, etc. What's the next. best thing? uh do something to the mom. and whether it went wrong, whether it. went right, she died too soon. But this. guy was is so scared right now. He had. his own reasons for doing this personal.

uh you know, perceived relationship. He. may have met uh Savannah in the past. He. may have uh you know, shared emails with. her, you know, very prefuncter and very. basic back and forth. And she had no. idea that maybe she was pissing off some. guy by not giving him, you know, the. second 8 by10 glossy or actually doing a. phone call with him, something like. that. and uh and and he goes and said, "Well, I'll show her." And he does this. thing. Again, successful abduction, I. don't think was ever meant to be a. kidnapping. And these letters, while. they still have to be investigated,

notes, uh communications, uh I I think. they're going to basically uh lead down. a uh you know, a rabbit hole that. basically takes the investigators. nowhere. >> Let me let me follow up on the. Aradomania thing because you and I have. discussed it many times and. unfortunately I've had it in my own. life. Um, here is something very interesting on. this front. I've told this story once. before on the air, but um I I know. somebody who was a psychiatrist at a.

prison hospital for years, very. wellrespected psychiatrist, and he told. me years ago that there was a you know, it's not the only test it was, but one. of the tools they would use in figuring. out whether a patient who was coming in, a prisoner, was a sociopath, right? no. empathy whatsoever was the following um. riddle. They would offer this riddle to. all the prisoners and the ones who were. not sociopaths would have one kind of.

answer and the ones who were sociopaths. would all have a different answer but. there the sociopaths would answer it the. same way. Okay. And the the riddle is um. Guy goes to the funeral of a woman. While they're mourning the deedent, Guy. makes eye contact with a um a woman. who's there who's also attending the. funeral and thinks that they had like a.

moment like the two of them exchange a. glance. It lingers for a couple of. seconds. Whatever. The funeral ends. Everybody goes their. separate ways. Two weeks later, guy. kills that woman's mother. Why? And the the answer is anything. If. you're normal, if you're a sociopath, you know it immediately. And they all. have it instantly. And it is because he. wanted to see her again.

>> That that's the way a sociopath thinks. And so to your point on the arado mania. theory, Jim, like what if you can't have. access to Savannah, but what you really. want is contact of some sort with. Savannah? Why not this? This would be a great way. of having Savannah think about you and. being in Savannah's life and like. possibly even coming together with her. physically in the future, like at a. trial or something in some way. you just.

like they don't think the way we do. Fitz. AB: >> Absolutely not. Uh the brain the. synapses don't connect as as they should. especially depending on the level of. degree and the uh uh you know how many. how many other examples. This was. probably Savannah was probably not the. um the the first victim that this person. obsessed over. And again, I worked in. New York City uh in the 90s and I was up. at NBC about once a month and the. various mostly female employees there,

you know, the on air personnel before. you were in that area, Megan, but you. know, once a month I was dealing with. the head of security. Hey, another. letter mostly then back back then. letters, put a lead out to whatever city. they came from. Hey, you sent this kind. of strange letter to someone uh you. know, so and so at NBC, did you really. plan to hurt her or do anything? And as. long as they got a confirmation, no, the. guy had no prior record. he wasn't about. to travel. They said, you know, all. right, no problem. You're good. But, uh, so yeah, and I'm hoping, and again, I. said this back in February, Megan, I'm. hoping the investigators are searching.

every single email Savannah ever. received. She's the outlier to this. kidnapping. Obviously, she brings the. the financial element to it. She's the. one that could pay the bigger bucks, you. know, several million, 15, 20 million, whatever it is. And and so that's a. factor to consider, but she's also the. onair personality. there are plenty of. wealthy people. >> and now we find out letter number one. was addressed to her. >> which I didn't I didn't know that back. then either so uh that is very.

interesting and then they perhaps backed. off but again this was never about. getting money never about any sort of. financial uh benefit to this person this. was saying I now have something of yours. and quite frankly maybe the person did. not plan uh for Nancy Guthrie to die and. it's very likely with her delicate. condition she did uh you know suffer an. early death and and an awful death uh. because of this trauma. But uh. nonetheless, he would have loved to sit. around and talk to her for weeks at a. time. What was Savannah like growing up? And you know, can I can you draw some.

pictures for me? Whatever the the. fantasy life of this person would be. But um but that didn't happen. And I. think this person then got rid of Nancy. probably not too far as the crow flies. from that house and uh and then went. deep and dark and hasn't come up since. the other stuff. As I said, opportunist. isn't writing these notes. No, >> here's here's an argument in favor of it. is the guy writing the notes. I don't. mean John necessarily, porch man. Maybe. he was working with somebody. I don't. know. But here's an argument that the.

perpetrator is the one writing the. notes. Um CBS News, I played to you. their revelation that the first ransom. note was addressed. Dear Savannah, what. they didn't report, weirdly in their. onair piece, but did report at CBS. um.com, their website, was that the note. gave highly specific details about. Guthri's home, including that an Apple. Watch, which we knew that they he said. where where it was placed, but they.

reveal that it was that the note. revealed an Apple Watch with a white. band was on the floor of her bedroom. Now, I don't know whether they made a. mistake there, but that is the first. I've seen that reported anywhere. And of. course, all the news organizations were. asked to withhold some details because, you know, if they get the the guy, they. want to be able to test him with. information that the public did could. never have accessed. But there it is. I. mean, how else? Like, if you're a. fraudster trying to take advantage of.

this poor suffering suffering family to. try to get them to send you 4 million. bucks or 6 million if they wait till. Monday, how would you know that there's. an Apple Watch with a white band that. was on the floor of her bedroom? That's. now we're getting really specific. >> Mhm. >> And maybe that's exactly what. investigators found. That's that's not. even the kind of thing like a maid two. weeks earlier could attest to, you know, like that's you were there. You saw. something the night of the crime. Like I. I'm starting to glean why they may.

believe these notes, these first two. were authentic, John. >> Well, that's very possible. But, you. know, if you also go with a theory that. somebody is really obsessed with. Savannah and they're following this. case, you know, um, from head to tail. and they're following the news all the. time because that's what they do. They. obsess. They obsess with the news. They. look for stories all over the place. As. a matter of fact, the person that took. Savannah and or I'm sorry, that took.

Nancy, I'm sure will be looking at us. today, too. But anyway, I just wanna I. just want to get back to that. I mean, uh, so he could have picked that up um, from the news. Now, you're the first. person that's bringing that out to me. I. have not heard that before and I think. that is just unbelievable. >> CBS just posted it. >> That That is really unbelievable on how. that information could have gotten out. Okay, because I'm going to talk in.

linguistics on I want Jim's feedback on. this. Jim, we know these guys don't have. feelings. Number one, lots of them. They, you know, these kidnappers, they. would know feeling if they fell over, right? So now this guy's talking about. unintentional. He's talking about parished with nature. When did you ever hear of a hard guy, a. hard guy, right? A psychopath. So, oh, she perished with nature. Oh, it was. unintentional.

Yeah. Have you ever heard that? >> They don't use verbs like that. >> No, >> they don't use verbs like she's she's. laying. >> So let let him answer. Go ahead. >> Sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead. >> Yeah. And by the way, buried with nature. that all of us will be buried with. nature. We could be chopped up. Shallow. grave, regular grave, uh a pond, a lake, uh in the desert. We're going to be. buried with nature. There's nothing uh. un to me unusual about that. And look, I. also want to be something we should. throw out here. Uh, I I've had friends.

over the years kind of for jokes, at. least my friends, they go to see a. psychic and it's it's it's fun to talk. to them and maybe they get little. tidbits. It's amazing what a. well-trained, experienced psychic can. come up with and tell you about. yourself. They're very wellkilled and uh. in that department. I'm not saying the. person who did this was writing the. notes is a psychic, but I'm saying I'd. like to see the actual language and it. could be very much just generic and and. sort of suggestive of this and and maybe. they the investigators have, you know,

blinders on. Oh, well, okay, the watch. was kind of over there, but maybe they. meant that it was here and and and they. go in that regard. So, we have to be. careful. And we're also only getting. sources. I'd love to see the notes. letters themselves. That could help us a. lot. >> I know they won't release them. All. right. Actually, we're going to hold you. guys over. We're going to go to break. We're going to keep this rolling, but I. I have something to show you uh right. after this break. A picture that may. change the discussion entirely. Stand. by. Don't go away. SiriusXM. We will be. right back. Uh and by the way, it's.

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trial today at shopify.com/megan. Go to shopify.com/megan. That's shopify.com/megyn. >> There's a note that our Brian ends. reported on that says that she's dead. She's with nature. Is there any hope. that the FBI and investigators find her? >> I hope they find her. I mean, Savannah's. gone through a rough that family's gone. through hell, but I hope they find. >> President Trump weighing in on the case. after having been asked about uh it and.

saying, "I hope they find her.". Unfortunately, he didn't sound as. optimistic as he did the last time he. was asked about this and weighed in. there. He was outside under an umbrella. in a rainy day. The first time was on. Air Force One and said, you know, he. felt optimistic. Remember that there was. going to be breaking news and we later. found out what that was about. It was. those it was the porch video uh of Porch. Man. So, he did have reason for. optimism, though that didn't wind up. solving it. At least not yet. Back with. me now, James Fitzgerald. He's a former.

supervisory special agent for the FBI, now the co-host of the Cold Red podcast. And John Kelly's with us, too, a veteran. criminal profiler and psychotherapist. Guys, great to have you back again. Um, >> here's the picture I wanted to show you. So, we discussed how the perpetrator. might have been out there stalking, getting information about Savannah. Take a look at Nancy Guthrie in this. picture. >> Notice anything. >> on her left arm? >> Yeah.

Just. >> it's. >> the Fitbit or whatever. >> Apple Watch. >> Apple Watch. Yeah. >> With a white band. >> Yeah. >> Apple Watch with a white band. >> Not for nothing, but you can see NY's. skin. This happens sometimes with the. elderly with her her skin looks almost. purple from the uh mid forearm down. Just underscoring that she was a fragile. old lady. This is 2023. So two, you. know, three years before she would be. abducted. >> Um you can see I mean look at that. It's. like the picture of somebody who is. frail. She's You can see her cane. You.

can see her old skin, you know. I I mean. a aging. I don't mean, you know, old. I. mean aging skin. Obviously, a. circulatory problem because you can see. the blood is pooling down on her. extremities. And you can see the watch. So, it's it's telling from a number of. perspectives. Now, the CBS.com. report said that the perpetrator. described Apple Watch with a white band. on the floor of her bedroom. So, you. know, if you're just somebody taking a.

shot, that's risky to say that's where. it was when you don't know. Um, so you. could know about the Apple Watch with. the white band. I don't know that you'd. be able to say where it was the day she. was taken. And the other piece of it is. Howard Bloom reporting. Um, specifically, he's adding this. He says the first note. actually also correctly described what. Guthrie had been wearing on the night. she was abducted. Again, how accurate, how closely did they describe it? You.

know, you could I know what my mom. sleeps in every night and you could if. you if you hit the category, I'd. probably believe you. Um, but if this. person actually said, you know, it was. like leopard pajamas and that's what it. was, you'd believe him. Like the FBI. knows how close this guy came to the. mark. And again, Harvey, who's been in. constant constant contact with the FBI, is reporting that the FBI believes the. first two are authentic. Savannah. constant contact with the FBI believes. the first two notes are authentic, like.

belong from the kidnapper. And my. information was that the second note, the ransom, sorry, the apology note, whatever we're calling it, these she's. now died note, that the reason they. believed it was from the f first guy, was that it also had a reference to the. same Bitcoin account as was in the. first. But that is somewhat contradicted. by reports out now that there wasn't a. renewed demand for payment. So why would. they which I believe like everybody's. saying there was no new renewed demand.

for payment in the second note. So why. would he have even made reference to the. Bitcoin maybe they're just maybe the. first report was wrong that there wasn't. a second reference to the Bitcoin. account and it was simply the IP address. such as it was obviously masked and so. on was traced back to the same location. obviously masked or not that it matched. the first note to the second. Here's. okay. Okay, so that's all that. But here. is what I want to ask you guys about.

the Harvey friend contact, friend of the. kidnapper who keeps, you know, texting. in to Harvey or emailing. He is emailing. Fitz. My conclusion is my amateur solething, this person is definitely not the same. person as the person who wrote the first. two notes because now we figured out the. timeline. The first two notes demanding. payment for four or six million and then. the oh I'm sorry she died. Those. happened the first week Nancy had.

disappeared. She was taken on a Saturday. into a Sunday. The first note came we. believe on Tuesday basically saying pay. us by Monday or else. Um, and. the Thursday deadline for the four. million passed and then they received. the second note saying she died before. it was time to pay number, you know, the. 6 million. The whole point is the first. week they allegedly had Nancy taken. They received one note saying 4 million.

or 6 million. They received the second. note saying never mind. Not never mind, but she's died. Whoops, she's died. That's what led to Savannah and her. siblings coming out and saying on video, "We understand. We really want to. celebrate with our mother. This is important to us. We will pay.". And the belief now is that this is them. not explicitly acknowledging she's dead. as she they've been told because they. don't want all of us to go away and stop. looking for Nancy because they don't. know if this is real, right? So like she.

might be dead. this might be the actual. kidnapper, but if it's not or if she's. not, they don't want all of us to take. our foot off the pedal and go away and. stop covering this. So, the family wants. to telegraph to the kidnapper if it's. real. We'll give you money for her. corpse. Please stay in touch with us. Tell us how to do that and while keeping. us all on the line. But this the friend. of Harvey doesn't appear until second. week. Second week. and his first message.

says, "Time is of the essence. I've seen. them." And suggests it may be in Mexico. Then a day or two later sends another. note saying, "Time is no longer of the. essence." Telegraphing like, "She's died. now." Like between his first note and. his second note, but the other person a. week earlier pulled the same routine. Give us the four to six million or else. And then a couple days later, she died.

So this is not the same person. I mean. maybe it's the same fraud being. perpetrated from different angles, but. that's what's happened. So initially I. thought maybe friend of Harvey was. dovetailing at the same time as the. first twoletter guy and initially they. were like right you know pay pay time is. of the essence. They both were kind of. saying that and then they initially were. both like and never mind but that's not. true. It was a week later and it's part. of the reason why I think Friend of. Harvey is completely I have I. have an open mind on the first guy.

Friend of Harvey seems like a complete. fraudster. And last but not least, let. me play what Harvey Leven said just a. couple of hours ago as he revealed. friend of Harvey or friend of kidnapper. has been in touch yet again. And this is. what he said. Stop 49. >> Only two are directly involved. He says. that he has video. He has video of Nancy. Guthrie with the main kidnapper. He.

says, um, while it contain what it. contains is my definition of delivering. it on a silver platter, a short video of. the main guy with Nancy, the day that. was probably her last. He also says that. he has uh names, addresses, phone. numbers of the kidnappers. Now, he says he has that video in a phone and.

the phone is turned off. It is in a. secure secret location, but a location. easy to find if you know where to look. And that's what he says. He doesn't say. a safe deposit box, but he says easy to. find if you know where to look. And he. says that if he gets a Bitcoin, uh, he. will deliver, as he puts it, on a silver. platter, um, exactly how to get access.

to this phone, including the password. >> John Kelly, thoughts on that? >> This guy's looking for his 15 minutes of. fame in a Bitcoin. I. That's about what this amounts to to me. I mean, this is just uh you know, silliness. I mean, uh. >> you don't believe that guy at all? >> I don't believe it. I don't believe it. for one minute. He's getting off that it. keeps getting reported and he's on TV.

and he's hearing about himself and he's. getting off to that and he's trying to. get a Bitcoin in the meantime. This guy, you know, I I I look, I can be wrong, right? There's no question about it. But. I I wouldn't give this guy 10 cents, let. alone a Bitcoin. Yeah. >> Yeah. And you heard Harvey later uh come. out, Fitz, and say, "If you're real, go. to wherever the phone is, get a screen. grab of something proving you're not a.

liar. If you've got something, send it. You've been sending us more than a dozen. emails. Send us something to show you're. not a fraudster.". >> Um that's not going to happen. And by. the way, Fitz, do you remember when this. guy sent his first or second note to. Sheriff Harvey? He said, um, "You won't. be hearing from me again." Okay, it's. been like 10 10 notes later, uh, Harvey's begging him to send something. proving he's not a a fraudster. And I. think we all know where that's going to. lead.

>> Yeah. Fake, phony, and fraudster. Uh, the three Fs there literally speaking. Yeah. You know, we're going back and. forth with this, Megan. I probably use. the next three words I'm about to say uh. you know a half dozen times with you in. February. I'm going to modify it. slightly. Back then all they were asking. for was proof of life. Three words. Now. it's very likely Nancy is deceased. Now. give us proof of death. Why all this. game playing, the showmanship, these. minations going back and forth and.

people guessing and and folks like us. discussing this on the air, which is. fine because we we have limited. information. And of course, I'm going to. say again, the investigators would be. remiss if they didn't follow through on. this. But I I I I hope they're telling. Savannah to please, you know, don't get. overly u what's the right word? But. don't get overly confident that this is. something that's going to come to pass. because we wanted proof of life and we. never really had that a bit. I mean a um. a Fitbit or the Apple Watch, whatever it. was on the floor and describes it. Okay.

And Megan, by the way, that picture you. showed of Savannah with her mother with. the watch, I assume that was public. before the abduction. Correct. >> We think so. I actually asked my team. where we got it and they said it's been. circulating online but by all people who. are watching this case. So, but it had. would have to be, right? because NY's. been missing and but I mean whether it. was public on the Today Show set. >> whether it was public or not on Facebook. or whatever is what I'm or what I'm.

suggesting here. So if the person would. know how to describe the watch if this. was a private collection you know that. that that Savannah never put out there. All right, that tells us a little. something more if it's out there. And. Megan, I was on with you I I think live. one day and you found and your team. found a uh walkthrough of NY's bedroom. and uh there was a video that you know. years before. >> and I'm probably the older woman hasn't. changed her bedroom that much. It's the. same house, same bedroom and as I think. you even commented you know your mother.

or remember my mother you know you just. don't change much when you get you know. past 50 or 60 in your bedroom unless you. actually move. So, it wouldn't be hard. to watch that somewhere and then in fact. come up with this uh you know this uh. this this inside singular knowledge that. only the real kidnapper knows. And. again, I'm saying this was an abduction, not a kidnapping for. >> But Jim, you don't find it you don't. find it persuasive. Like. if if the cops got there and that Apple. Watch was on the floor,

that's good. That's that would convince. me this was actually from the real. kidnapper. >> I'd have to Yeah. And and I I would. agree with you, Megan, on that. particular note. But. it it also doesn't mean these are the. kidnappers. And I'm not sure the guy who. abducted her would have put some letter. out like this making it look like a. kidnapping as opposed to abduction. And. really quick, the other point I wanted. to make here, there have been for-profit. criminal kidnappings over the years.

hate to go back uh 94 years Lindberg. The baby died within 10 minutes of being. brought down the ladder in Hopewell, New. Jersey, and Hawkman buried the body. there. But the kidnapping uh I'm sorry, the ransom request went on for two. years. Cindy Riso was shot in the arm in. 1992. He's the Exxon executive in. Northern New Jersey, and he died a day. or two later, but the husband and wife. kidnapping team kept up all the. negotiations for the next six to eight. weeks or so. So why did the person so. she if she did die why did they give up.

on the kidnapping? There had to be a lot. of planning with this whether from. overseas, you know, locally, whatever, whether the the kidnapped, you know, mastermind was somewhere else and this. was local talent that he hired to go in. with the uh the mask and the Doc Holiday. holster in front of him and and and and. carry through there. But why just give. up on the kidnapping? If you had that. proof of life, send something. send the. pajamas or at least cut a piece off that. the mother was allegedly wearing and.

say, "We have her. Here's the pajamas. she was wearing. She's okay. Give us the. money." They would have paid that money. in a heartbeat. Uh knowing that kind of. proof, but everything is so nebulous, so. amorphous that I don't blame them. I'm. glad they didn't pay the big bucks to. these to these people with such little. information to provide. Again, successful abduction. You can criticize. the interactions there on the on the. porch, but uh but a half-ass kidnapping. and I would just further summize it. never was meant to be a forprofit. kidnapping by by legal definition.

>> John, um our pal Howard Bloom, who's. reporting in airmail, restarted this. case this week because he was the one. who first revealed some of the contents. of the second note. Um he is reporting. that there's a case of regret happening. right now amongst law enforcement. because they are starting to think they. should have just paid the $4 million and. then followed the money and that would. have gotten them to somebody which would. have given them some them some answers.

And again the reporting is that the FBI. thinks that $4 million demand came from. the actual kidnapper. Here is Howard um. on I don't know where he was this week, but he was on Inside Edition and he was. talking about this theory in terms that. John Wayne fans may find familiar. S 56. The $4 million ransom was never paid and. investigative reporter and best-selling. author Howard Bloom says detectives he.

spoke to are regretting that decision. today. Not to have done that originally. when the window of opportunity was there. was perhaps a very big even a fatal. mistake. >> He says Tucson police considered using. what they called the big Jake theory. A. tactic inspired by the 1971 John Wayne. Western big Jake. >> Put it down. Come on. Let me down. >> In the movie, John Wayne's grandson is. kidnapped and he chases the bad guys.

>> He has a plan. he's going to pay the. money, but also get the money back and. his grandson back. And the cops refer to. that because that's what they feel. should have been done in this case. They. should have paid the ransom, hope to get. Nancy back, and then worry about getting. the money back. >> Bloom believes the kidnappers got the. idea to kidnap Nancy after Savannah. returned home to shoot a special for the. Today Show last November. >> The best thing about Tucson is coming. home and seeing you guys. I believe. someone in Tucson saw this and they saw,

"Look at these people. They have so. much. Their life is so blessed." And in. their greed, they came up with this. scheme to take Savannah's mother. >> So, what do you make of that, John? That. thought they should have just paid the. four mil. >> Yeah. Now, if you listen to what he said. there, he said the Tucson police. He. didn't say the FBI. You follow me? I I would not I would not. if the FBI didn't go along with that. wholeheartedly. I would not go along.

with it. I would Can the Tucson police. track that? I don't know. Can I do I. believe the FBI could track that Bitcoin. transaction? Absolutely. You know, one. other question, two questions I have. that I think are important. The one. question is the her cane. Did anybody. say that her cane was out of the house? that the cane was missing from the. house. >> I don't I have not heard that the cane.

was either left behind or taken. I don't. know anything about it. >> Okay. Because that's that's important. for some guy that's apologizing, right, for uh or or or or seemingly putting. together some kind of empathy, you know, for the woman. And then the other thing. again I go back to what you brought up. Megan about the news and the watch and. everything uh you know being found on. the floor uh on the news. I mean these.

guys watch everything. I'm telling you. they're watch this guy who's out there's. watching this. And this brings me back. to what Jim said early on in this. interview in this show. Okay, Jim, you. talked about him being scared. Whoever. this guy is right now, he's scared. Talk. about that. >> Well, >> well, especially Fitz because Did you. hear what Moren said on this show on. Wednesday? >> I heard a few things. I know she put a. 75 percentile uh.

>> out there. I'll play it just for the. audience that that didn't hear her, but. our we love Moren and she's former FBI 2. and she said the following two days ago. >> The person we're talking to could say, "Wow, they're probably closer than we. think they are." Could you just expand. on why you think they're wrapping like. they're getting there? That they're. close to making an arrest. >> I think they're getting close to. the porch guy. And when they when they get the porch. guy, the floodgates.

shall swing open. >> What's your level of confidence on that? >> 75%. >> That's big news. >> I know. >> she's not loosey goosey. Moren's. careful, she's considered, she's bright, and she's got connections. So, that was. very interesting, and it did make a lot. of news. It went everywhere. So, your. thoughts? >> Yeah. Uh, and I I trust Moren. implicitly, and if she has sources that. I don't have right inside the. investigation, good for her. And of. course, if that person was identified, that would open the floodgates or.

whatever she said there. I agree 100%. So, uh, I mean, he is the kidnapper, whether there was someone else or. abductor. Let me go back to that word. Uh but and then whether someone else. helping in the car, whatever, we don't. know that. But uh uh but there's going. to be an alpha male who was in charge of. this. If there's a second if there is a. helper, a second person, it's going to. be the alpha male. That's what my. profile went out uh uh you know, at the. end of February, early March when this. thing just hadn't been solved. Uh and uh. he he's the one that of course the.

investigators have to focus on. And I. think everything else here is jetsum and. floats them. And it doesn't have. anything to do with the case itself. And. and again, you talked a little bit, Megan, early on about the regret um the. task force members may feel. And I I've. been on task force, Unibomb task force. and the DC sniper task force and uh and. when the next victim occurred, when the. next victim was killed, you felt like. and you felt awful. What could we. have done different? Why didn't we get. make the arrest beforehand? I remember. before I even showed up at the Unibomb.

Task Force, they did an interview or. something in Playboy magazine, I think, and uh very legitimate interview. knew. they would have, you know, good. journalism back then. And uh and then. there's two killings right afterwards. and they felt so bad to bombing victims. by the uni bomber and they felt somehow. their article, their interview, things. they said about him could have. contributed to him. But then we finally. got in the cabin, got all his written. communications and these murders and. these particular people were planned. well before that came out. So, uh, as. John said, this person has no remorse,

no, uh, no compassion for anyone. uh. he's a narcissist to some degree and uh. and this is all about him at this point. And and if Moren's right, we talked. about pre-offense behavior and. postoffense behavior. Whoever out there. knows this guy, maybe he heard what. Moren said. You may see some changes in. his behavior. Putting the car in the. garage, you know, driving Uber back and. forth to work, growing a beard, you. know, shaving it off, whatever it takes. if you see someone with behavior that's. changed certainly back in January then.

again in February uh you know remember. that but uh but certainly in the last. week or so if he thinks people are. getting closer the best thing and I I'll. I'll just say this one more time the. best thing happening for the actual. abductor is these bizarre notes coming. in they're saying. >> thank goodness you know defay the. investigation let them focus on that and. not worry so much about me because I. never even thought of doing it for that. reason. But hey, if they want to think. that, good for them. This guy did it for.

a very personal reason. And as I put out. there, I challenge this person if he's. listening to my podcast and certainly. yours. Uh he may just be a guy that. likes to have sex with old ladies. And I. know it's graphic. I hate to say it. And. there's a name for that. John, you know. what that condition is? It's in the DSM. And if he wants to tell us otherwise, no, I'm not one of those perverts. Put. something out there and tell us why you. did this. And you don't have to give. your name away. you to give your address. or your age, which apparently somebody. has uh on their phone. But um but just,

you know, tell us why you did this so. you're not so That's why the Uni Bomber. eventually started writing to the New. York Times. He didn't want people to. think he was some random nut job uh you. know, sending off bombs to, you know, random people. Uh he had specific. purposes in doing so. And I'm trying to. encourage this guy. You know, if you. don't want to be seen as some kind of. pervert who likes old women, you may. want to uh you may just just tell the. public why you did this and without even. giving anything away and at least your. legacy will go down that you're not this.

creepy guy that many of us who know this. stuff think you may just be. >> very women. You know, >> by the way, it's Megan at Megan. Kelly.com if you're trying to get in. touch. Go ahead, John. >> Yeah, Megan and Jim. There's two other. women, similar looks, older women that. are missing uh in in um Arizona. It's. it's kind of creepy if you want to take. a look at it. And I don't think either. one has been found. Um they lived alone.

Very veo very similar to Nancy as far as. um living conditions go. Okay. Uh, if. you want to look at Carolyn. Cosner, uh, C O S N O R N Iona D's D E A S, if. you want to take a look or if you'd like. me to send some pictures over to you. because the first thing, you know, we. started looking at, you know, and and.

you know, if somebody's missing and. somebody's been grabbed and if it's not. a kidnapping, if it's something else. If. it is something sexual or whatever, do we have any other victims? Let's look. around and see if we have anybody else. And we found. >> You are the serial killer catcher. >> Yeah. So, if you check these two women. out, if you want me to send their. pictures over, Megan, I'll send them. over to you. I think you'll find it very. interesting. >> We would like to check that out. Um, my.

team is now alerting me that in that. that segment that NBC aired in November, this past November, November 5th, 2025, which would have been December, January, 3 months before the kidnapping, Nancy had the white watch or the the. Apple Watch with the white strap on it. on there, too. So, there was that. picture of Savannah and her back in. 2023. And now, here, this is just three. months before she was taken.

There it is. You can see it very. clearly. Apple Watch, white band. But. again, doesn't necessarily explain if. they were able to say it was on the. floor of her bedroom, but that watch was. definitely out there for the for the. viewing. The the case remains a mystery. It remains unsolved. Not for lack of. trying by our part uh on our part. I. don't know. I'm sure that law. enforcement still is working furiously, but um Harvey's reporting no new leads.

He's disputing that they're close to. finding poor guy based on his sources, but but he also says he hasn't spoken to. the FBI in months. He says they won't. call him back anymore. So, I'm not sure. how up toate his information is. I trust. Moren uh implicitly as you do, Jim. She. hasn't steered us wrong yet. Guys, thank. you both so much for being here and uh. further updates to follow. You're. welcome, Megan. >> Thank you so much, Megan. Have a. wonderful weekend. Thank you. >> Oh, thank you. Thank you. You, too. All. right. And thanks to all of you for.

tuning in. Go ahead. As I mentioned, uh, today's Friday, so we post our American. News Minute. If you go to Megan. Kelly.com, you can sign up for it. I'm. sorry to tell you, but my Stredwick. updates have been out of control lately. He's He's the sweetest boy. He honestly, I love this dog so much. She's just so. sweet and so loving and lovable, but. he's so naughty. And we've had trips to. the vet. We've had very expensive bills. We've had a lot of stuff ruined like.

recently. And he's five. Why? Why? We. also do the news in the American News. Minute. It's not just the Dreadwick. newsletter. But anyway, go and sign up. if you need a laugh at my expense. Um, and in the meantime, have a wonderful. weekend. Lots of love to you. We're back. on Monday with Stu Ber. See you then.