Harry and Meghan FLEE America, with Maureen Callahan, and Bombshell New Karmelo Anthony Texts

Hey everyone, I'm Megan Kelly. Welcome. to the Megan Kelly show. Today, two. important selfdeportations. that can unite all of America. This is. the first thing we've been able to agree. upon in over a decade. Megan and Harry. are leaving. Praise Jesus. They're. going. Get back to the UK. Go become. somebody else's problem. We are sick of. you. We have enough weirdos. self. narcissistic obsessed Americans already.

The country's full. It's saturated. Go. home, Harry. We never wanted you here to. begin with. If we had to have one of the. kids of Prince Charles, Ben, Prince. Charles, we we all wanted William. No. one wanted you. I don't know how we got. stuck with Megan anyway. We had safely. ejected her to Canada. Then you came. along, took her over to UK. That was. fine. It was a hot mess for you, but we. were still living our beautiful lives. And now finally she's going back to the.

UK. And we all know why. There's many. speculations out there about why, but. I'll tell you why. Because they can't. stand not being adored and famous and. welcomed everywhere and getting the the. reservations they want and the attention. they want. We want privacy. We all know. is a lie. And they think that they'll. have an elevated status over in the UK. and that so will their children. They. want those children to be brought up as. the little prince and princess they are.

And they know that the British public. actually, you know, believes in that. crap, unlike us. No one here is treating. Archie and Liet like royalty. No one. We. don't do royalty here in America. We. fought a whole war to get away from. those people. And that these children. are not going to be treated as anything. special. Sorry. Especially in Monteceto. where if you're the child of George. Clooney, you're closer to royalty than.

if you're Meghan Markle's kid. No one. gives two dams. So that this is my own. belief. This is why they're going. They're going back to a place where they. can feel special and they can get. reservations at any restaurant and the. tabloid attention will pick back up. because it's withered down to an arid. dryness now. And um they can't stand it. She can't stand it, but he can't stand. it either. He's just as petty and small.

as she is. You know, yesterday on the. show, yeah, it was yesterday, right? It. was a Wednesday, like all the days are. blending. Uh, we had on Doug Brunt. He. was our second hour. And if you are. listening to the podcast or watching us. on YouTube, you you didn't see it. because it was something we do in August. every year just for the SiriusXM. listeners because we have a great. relationship with SiriusXM. We love. them. And so we give them like a special. feature once a year where we do a series. that's just for the S SiriusXM audience. And by the way, if you're not subscribed. to SiriusXM, you should totally do it. I.

love SiriusXM. I listen to it all the. time. It's got so many great things. The. app is good. if you if you miss this. show, if you want to keep up even on. cable, like see what the weirdos are. saying, you can always pull up. somebody's show. They've got virtually. all of them on there. Anyway, it's a. great app. And um our Get Closer series. yesterday featured Doug and I love. introducing people to Doug because Doug. is great. He's smart. He's charming. He's I He's just easy, you know, to be. around and to listen to, not to mention. to look at. And uh I adore him and you.

can tell he's a great guy when you talk. to him. Like I I need only introduce you. to Doug for you to love Doug. These two like I can't imagine what it's. like when they have to introduce the. other to somebody who doesn't know them. because of course they're thinking like, "Oh my god, Prince Harry." And then they. meet him and see what a hot mess he is. And by the way, he doesn't even have. proper grammar. You'd think a a prince. of England would be able to, you know, do subjectverb agreement. He can't. He's.

actually kind of an idiot, which is. ironic because they apparently are. sending their children back to the UK. because they want them to go to UK. schools because Harry's so enamored with. the education he had. Um, I think you. need to rethink that, Harry. Um, and can. you imagine introducing somebody to. Meghan Markle as your wife who's bullied. everybody, who's nasty, who snaps at her. own friends as we saw on that with Love. Megan show. So, it's like these it's. only a matter of time before this. relationship is over. We all know that. And um now they're going to be the the.

problem of the UK friends. And you know. what? I part of me my heart goes out to. them because they they don't really. deserve this. They're already dealing. with like a lunatic government that's. cracking down on free speech. The influx. of radical Muslims who are trying to. chastise them for wearing tank tops. I. mean, this is a lot. They've already had. to deal with a lot. The king's got. cancer. Princess Kate had cancer. Um. they they don't need this other form of. cancer coming back to the UK. Why? They. should go back to Canada. That would be. a solution we could all live with. Okay,

that's my initial take on this. Uh we. are in just a bit going to get to a. packed Kelly's court on Lindseay Clancy, what's happening that trial where the. something's happening with the jury. today. We'll get into it. And also. Hayden Penitentiier as we're learning. that the DEA is now joining the. investigation of this case. Didn't I. tell you? Didn't I tell you that's what. happened right before the Matthew Perry. people got charged? the DEA swooped in. and before we knew it, four or five. people got charged. That's where this is.

going. Guarantee it. Uh okay, but we're. we're going to get into first uh before. we do any of that uh just a quick. programming note here. We've got the. latest episode of our MK Live series. It's available on YouTube for those who. join our members only. It's a new. feature on YouTube that you can offer to. your fans and you head on over to. youtube.com/megan. Kelly. Uh, make sure you're on the. YouTube app if you're using your phone, otherwise you won't see the little join. button. But, uh, if you use the YouTube. app and then you will see the join.

button. You hit join to subscribe and. there you will get access to all sorts. of exclusive content including live. discussions with yours truly. We're. going to have one coming up on Monday. night where we're going to get into MK. Confidential and other subjects, but. we're going to have sort of our our book. club version of MK Confidential where we. talk about the crime series and your. thoughts on the the cases and, you know, how they turned out. Anyway, that's. going to happen on Monday night. We'll. have more on that on Monday, but you got.

to be a member. Got to be a member of. members only. It's $6.99 a month. It's. not that much. Whatever. If if you don't. want to, you don't have to, but I think. it's actually going to be really fun. We. already had one of these Q&A and it was. really fun. Uh the tour documentary uh. episode is called Backstage Pass, and. that's exactly what it gives you, the. inside look at what really happened. behind the scenes on our tour last year. Oh, it's quite a behindthescenes uh. look, too. features a broken guitar, burns to yours truly and Abby, my.

assistant, uh, and burns in more way. more ways than one. We also get into my. attempts to mediate the hatred between. Ben Shapiro and Tucker Carlson. How'd. that work out for me? Here's what you're. going to find. A little preview. >> Just goes out there and lets rip him. Having so much fun. This is the United. States of America. She's. >> out there [music] telling people what.

she thinks every single day. She's not. hiding. >> She would have withered on the vine at. Legacy Media. This is the real Megan. >> I feel like it brings me joy being on. the [music] road with her. It would be a. really good picture if we all got on the. motorcycles. I knew what my legs need to. do on a motorcycle. [music] Megan did. not. >> She's like, "Ah." Like I see like the. the pain in her smile. John Rish was. walking up the stairs with his guitar. and fell. >> My boot caught the last step and [music].

just bam, just snapped the head right. off of it. >> So now we're going to scramble to try to. find replacement guitar. My brother Pete. out there with you. Pete, are you in the. front pier? Right here. He absolutely. [music] tortured me as a child. >> My mother will tell me all the time, we. talk to her sister, have her slow down. on the body language. >> [music]. >> I do read all the emails. I have a. general understanding that while maybe. 15% of the audience feels that way, [music] 85% are with me. [cheering].

She told me once at drinks that I wrote. something bad about her and I said, "Oh. my god, I feel terrible that I wrote. that. I can't believe it. I really feel. [music] like my two brothers are. arguing. I'm not in politics to be. friends with people.". >> Buzz off. >> Yes. I kind of gave up. and forging a. piece between them. >> He's turned that way for us. >> It was just so good to be with the. people that I spend two hours with every.

day. Sea of reasonable right-wingers. So many fun and some fraught moments in. this episode. It's going to be available. right now uh for subscribers of our MK. members only. So head on over to. youtube.com/megan Kelly and join now. All right, we want to bring in someone. who you just saw in that little trailer. Moren Callahan. She's host of the hit. show The Nerve on our MK Media podcast.

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an exclusive discount for you, too. Right now, get 50% off your new system. by visiting simplysafe.com/megan. That's half off at sim plyafe.com/megan. There's no safe like simply safe. Moren, this is huge news about these two. grifters. Why do you think they're. leaving after telling us for six years. they couldn't stand the UK? They they.

made their escape to Monteceto. the. propaganda of that with love Megan. trying to show us this miraculous. perfect life that they had built for. themselves out in one of the most. beautiful areas on earth. They they had. everything was perfect. Moren, why are. they leaving? >> I have so many theories, Megan. So many. theories. When I was thinking about all. of this in advance of coming on to talk. to you, it occurred to me, by the way, that this is personal, at least for me,

because the very first time I did your. show and I think you had just gone to. video, it you had I was asked to come on. because of a Megan and Harry blowup. story. And I believe it was the story in. which Megan said to the cut that she was. told by a member of the Lion King that. when she married into Harry's family, they danced in the streets in South. Africa like Mandela was freed. I'll. never forget it. It's seared in my.

memory. And who knew a friendship would. be born from that? Megan and Harry, at. least they brought you and I together, you know, I can be thankful for that. >> For that, we're we're truly grateful. I. can be truly grateful for that. Um, I. think many things are going on. So, the. reporting is the reporting that the. Daily Mail has is that Charles himself. was blindsided by this news. You know, they were just in the UK. Harry just had. that meeting with the king at Highrove. The reporting is that he never mentioned.

a peep to the king. Now, that's the. reporting. Could there be a deeper play. at work here where that's the official. story? Because we also know this. marriage seems to be in trouble. They. professionally separated their brands. about a year ago and announced they were. doing so. Here in the United States, Harry and Megan have been making. appearances separately together. Separate from each other, excuse me, for. months now. We had reporting over at the.

nerve. Lady C came on with her explosive. report, multiply sourced. >> Heard it. >> Harry's in love with another woman. >> She said, >> "Yeah, >> and that other woman Harry loves. somebody else. >> And there was a question raised about. whether Megan actually carried those. babies or used a surrogate. This is. something we've seen in the press for a. long time. It's not really the behind. the move or anything like it was. It was. just very interesting. Lady C was. suggesting she she'd heard speculation. along the same lines. Of course, Megan. and Harry say that she carried their. babies, but I mean, it would be right on.

brand with this vain woman to not want. to do anything to her precious body. Whatever. That's an aside. if he's in. love with somebody else and they're. leaving because that what he wants to. get the children back in the UK before. things split up so that he doesn't have. to deal with an across the pond. relationship you know they're there. he'll he'll be in better legal standing. to say you have to stay here but I don't. know because meen they're keeping the. Monteceto mansion. >> for now. >> and so that has some people thinking.

she's she's either not really going to. go with him like this could actually be. the split where for all intents and. purposes like she's actually going to. stay here even though we're pretending. she's leaving. Who knows? >> Well, I've read this morning that there. is now as as always with the Sussexes, nothing is clean. There's no controlled. messaging that's seamless. The. reporting, the latest reporting is that. Megan's going to give it a try for six. months. She's not allin. Now, you know, when they went back and.

Harry had that meeting with Charles at. High Grove and the reporting also was. that Megan was made to wait in the. hallway for quite some time before she. could join her husband with the king. Um, they're they're running out of money. I. don't know how they're going to finance. a non-royal home, a home not provided by. the British royal family, right? Is this. part of a larger play to get Harry back.

>> to get the children if once you enroll. children at at such young ages in. school? You know, the idea of ripping. them out is is is a is a is a huge one. Harry gets out of California residence. before 10 years are up. Once 10 years. are hit in California, you file for. divorce, it's community property, 50/50. >> Okay. So now he's got British residence. reasserted, reaffirmed. Megan, what is she going to do there?

She is loathed. She's got no friends. >> I asked the the team to pull this for. me. I said, "What's the latest approval. rating of those two over there?" Yuggov. poll of Britain's in July. Harry's. favorability is 30%. Megan's is 22. For comparison, Williams was at 76. Princess Katherine is at 74. All right. I mean, e even Queen Camila's, she's at.

43. She's well ahead of both of them. And the British public used to hate her. But now, look at that. Meghan Markle has. a 22% favorability rating in the UK. Nearly 80% of the populace hates her. So, what will she do, Megan? Because. again that last trip to the UK she. didn't even show her face publicly not. once like all she came late actually the. reporting initially was she and the.

children were going to be with Harry. during this most momentous visit in. which he was promoting the 2027 Invictus. Games the his most serious cause the. cause we are told is closest to his. heart. Was she there for any of it? Nope. That was the same week by the way. he got the black eye. All of his claims. against the publisher of the Daily Mail. were rejected. He and his cohort are now. on the hook for $63 million. You know, >> right? Because loser pays in the British. legal system. And he lost.

>> He lost. And and and that's not even the. the judge still has to rule on what. legal fees he'll be paying for the. defense in that court case. And I find. this timing, as I know you do, incredibly convenient. They have no. money. All of the Hollywood people have. backed away slowly and have vanished. Your Opas, your Tyler Perry's, your. Chris Jenners, um Ted Sarandos. Ted Sarandos. I mean,

he denied it in the variety piece, but. it seemed to me like a faint denial. where he said, "I won't get on the phone. with her without my lawyer on the other. line. They're done. They're done here. Megan's done there.". Um, I I I have no idea what she does. with herself for six months. We know she. can't live without a camera or a. spotlight. >> Yeah. No, they have no friends. Moren, you remember Harry? He showed up at the. NBA finals with the commissioner. It was.

like a guy in his 30s gets an invitation. to the NBA finals and he doesn't go with. like his bros. That's like. >> Yes. Doug and I are very much in love. I I. would not be his first phone call for. the NBA finals. He He would want to go. with one of his best friends, one of his. dude friends who loves basketball. He. showed up with the commissioner. He. >> He has no one and she has no one. They. have absolutely no friends. But I really.

think it's more simple. I genuinely. believe they it's their vanity. And in. particular, it's her vanity. I believe. she's not happy her little kids are not. getting the royal treatment and neither. is she. I think she probably wants those. kids to grow up with a British accent. I. think she wants them to be referred to. as prince and princess everywhere. I. think she wants to be able to have her. latest assistant, who only lasts two.

months because she bullies them all out, uh be able to call any restaurant in. town and say, "It's the Duke and Duchess. of Sussex." which actually means. something over there. Here people are. like whatever. Give me a break. Is it Tom Cruz or isn't it because. that's the only person we stay up late. for. You know, she wants that status. that she thought she was getting when. she married him. And so I believe she. wants this and she probably had to talk. him into it because he actually has been. ripping on his country nonstop.

15 months ago. He said he could not. possibly Is this a sound bite or is this. just in my notes? He said he could not. possibly go back there. No, no, no, no. It is a sound bite. Can't see a world in. which I'd be bringing my wife and. children back to the UK. Saw five. Listen, >> the only time that I've come back to the. UK is sadly for for funerals or court. cases. Um with the the odd charitable. function um where I can in between that.

um you I put myself at risk for that, but I I will continue on with a a life. of public service. So, I will always. support the charities and the people. that mean so much to me. Um I I can't. see a world in which I would be bringing. my wife and children back to the UK at. this point. Um and the things that they. the things that they're going to miss is. well, everything. You know, I [snorts]. love my country. I always have done. Um,

despite what some people in that country. have done. >> Okay. But that that was 15 months ago. Meen, I can't see a world in which I'd. bring them back. Now they're all moving. there. What changed? >> Consistency and uh, you know, an. intellectual throughine has never been. the strong suit of the Sussex's ever. >> True. True. Facts. I also think that I I. I you know, we we talked about last time. we talked about this, it was just like. five minutes ago. You know, we were.

talking about how Diana I I think Diana. had it right when she said Charles was. too weak for the top job. People. magazine in their exclusive report last. night and we know People which is from. her. >> is the preferred they definitely have. her as a source in my opinion. She's. their source. All of their exclusives. which are over the top favorable to her. >> Exly. they shoot them the emails, you. know, and then they just reprint them. with like v, you know, very very minor. tweaks. said that um the the People. report.

oh said that the Sussex's. felt they had very successfully. accomplished what they had set out to do. by moving to America which was establish. themselves as the halfin halfout royals. which is such an FU. to the late queen who at the and they. blindsided the queen too with their. announcement of Mexit in the first place. at the Sandringham summit the late queen. said there is no half in or half out. In. her infinite wisdom, she said, "No half.

in or half out. You're either all in and. you serve the British public and you. represent this country or you are out. Go make your money. We wish you well. You cannot represent the royals." And. now they're saying that not only are. they doing that, they've successfully. done it. And I think the danger here is. very real because I think that Harry is. going to continue to make his. appearances and he is a prince of the. blood. And those will be considered royal. appearances, you know, whether they're.

endorsed by the palace or not. Megan. will continue her travels as an. ambassador address of who knows what, and she'll consider those royal. appearances. Now, this is I think also the. deviousness of these two because I think. they are looking to get back in with. King Charles. >> And they're gonna they're going to. attempt to checkmate William because. once Charles begins to soften, Operation. Thaw is what it's called in Charles's.

realm. How is William going to look to the. British public if he maintains his. stance that his brother, who has been. nothing but a traitor to him, his wife, his children, and the crown, will. William somehow be depicted as the bad. guy here? He'd love nothing more. I mean his in. his book Spare, which is the only. successful thing they've done, uh he.

alleged uh that during a 2019 argument. over Megan, William called Megan. difficult, rude, and abrasive, that he. grabbed Harry by the collar and knocked. him to the floor where he landed on a. dog bowl and injured his back. He said. that William later apologized. He called. William his arch nemesis. He's my. beloved brother and arch nemesis, he. said. Um, by the way, while on the. subject of the of insults he hurled his. family in his book, couple more. He.

accused Camila of using him to fix her. image. He portrayed her as dangerous. because of her relationships with the. British press. He accused his dad, Camilleia and William, of working with. the press against him. Um, he, you know, he's had nothing but negative things to. say about them. And then in that Netflix. special, the two of them called the. British public racist. We pulled the. sound bite just in case people forgot. I. guarantee you the British public has not.

forgotten. It's sought 10B. >> If you go back and look at the social. media of that moment, immigration is at. the absolute center of those debates. And immigration is very often in this. country a cipher [music] for race. >> Everybody should should feel concerned. about illegal immigration. [music] We. don't know who these people are.

So the EU commission reported how to. understand. >> exactly the same time that our. relationship became public. [music] It. warned that if the government isn't. going to do something [music] or if the. media aren't going to sort themselves. out that a culture war that already. existed was going to become huge and. become a real problem. >> Increase in racist attacks after EU.

referendum. >> A perfect story. [music] that gave. credence to jingoism and nationalism and. gave people with really horrible views. of the world, a little bit more strength. [music] and confidence to say what they. wanted to say, to do whatever they. wanted to do. The nerve of these two to call them all. racists, anybody who wanted Brexit, it. was racist, and then expect to prance. back in there and get a hero's return.

Well, you know, that Netflix. documentary, which I believe they fired. the original director or she left under. a cloud of of conflict, uh, you know, if. that's their if that's the story they. want to put out there that, um, racism. really began to flourish when Megan came. on the scene. >> I mean, I call this histrionic. personality disorder. You know, you're. you're responsible for like. >> crossborder, you know, get out. Okay.

Secondly, if if this [laughter] is true, if this is if this is what they truly. believe, Megan, why? Okay. Harry has. spent almost his entire his full-time. job, as best I can tell, has been suing. the British tabloids. >> Yeah. >> So, if the British tabloids. are so terrible, have made, as he said. on the witness stand, he said that he. was weeping, oh, they've made my my. wife's life a living hell. at which. point the judge had to say, "Excuse me,

sir. This isn't a therapy session. Control yourself, >> right? This is a McDonald's, sir.". >> You know, like, "Stop crying." Uh, if. >> Well, e even Moren, even in that in that. People magazine uh piece, because the. the Telegraph broke the news that Meg. sits off and now they're going back. Um, and then People magazine almost. instantly had its own piece up 100%. obviously from the Sussex's. And in that. piece, um, they they they detail like what.

they're what they're going to do and. what this is about. Hold on one second. I just want to pull it up because I it's. it's better if I read it. Um, yeah. Okay. This is what they put the. blame on. While the couple appeared to. have an idyllic life in Monteceto, they. want you to know it was idyllic. This. isn't a fail. Everything was ideal uh. and idyllic. While they appear to have an idyllic. life in Monteceto, they have made no. secret of their disillusionment with the. current White House. [laughter].

With the midterm elections fast. approaching, concerns about the. direction of the US loom large for many. This is the most cynical BS I've ever. read in my life. They don't give a. about who's in the White House. if she. were getting her reservations when she. wanted them, she'd be staying. Trump has. been president or presidentele for. almost 2 years now. In fact, he's been.

president in his second term for so long. that we are now on the cusp of beginning. the next presidential election where he. could possibly be replaced by a by a. Democrat. He will be replaced by. somebody. So to blame it on Trump is. such an obvious head fake like to her. leftist, you know, the very small crew. of leftists who still like her. Um, like. I say, I'm leaving because of Trump. What a lie. That to me, putting that in. there makes it clear that this is all a.

lie and they don't want to tell us what. the real reason is. And so what that. Okay, so it's got to be a few things. Are they ending the relationship? Are. they um out of money, which is a very. real possibility, or is it just a petty. need for more attention? You tell me, Moren, how that's going to go if Okay, so great. You can get your reser your. restaurant reservation, but everyone. there hates you. No one's clamoring to. spend time with you. They're looking at. you, but they're looking at you.

disdainfully. They can't stand you, and. they know now that you can't stand them. I'm so happy that they very quickly um. disavowed their uh search for privacy, all credit to South Park, worldwide. privacy tour. >> Yes. >> And have left us with such historical. documentation of everything they thought. and felt in any given moment. Do you. remember Megan? It was around this time. last year, I think, or maybe even. earlier this year. Megan sat down with.

Emily Chang of Bloomberg. She was. launching something else. And Emily. Chang over Smashburgers. asked Megan about, you know, the very. difficult time we're in in this country. And did Megan feel like she could say. everything she wanted to say as far as. her concerns about where this country is. headed politically? And Megan sat there. knowing, as Michael Jordan famously. said, "Republicans buy sneakers, too.". Well, I think I've said everything I've.

had to say. Now we're politicizing it again. And. we're politicizing it just months after. King Charles and Queen Camila came to. the United States for a multi-day state. visit, were warmly welcomed by Donald. and Melania Trump, have spoken mutually. about how much they regard each other in. the highest realm. >> So it's it's it's so on brand for them. to mess everything up before they even. start. Let's blame Harry's father's.

American best friend, the leader of the. free world. That's the ticket. >> Yes. And that way maybe leftist. Britain's might welcome us back. We We. had to flee Trump. He was so bad. And. all of MAGA is so racist. Just like. those evil Brexit voting Britons. We had. no choice but to return home where Megan. could be safe. Where our black children. could be safe. [laughter] They're whiter.

than you and I are. >> That's why I buy the surrogate rumors. and the egg donor rumors. I mean, you. know, those are red hair, blue eyes. Those are recessive jeans. >> Honestly, and you and I are white and. these kids, we are pasty. These kids are. pastier than we are. Um the obsession. with celebrity is a factor here. You. mentioned it. They got the the cold shoulder out. there. No one's taking their calls. anymore. There have been multiple. reports out about this. No, that we we.

literally talked about the cold shoulder. that they got at that event with the guy. was supposed to be like a surrogate. father to Harry. Um that you know mucky. muck up in Canada. There we go. Married. to Katherine McVy. how he didn't want to. like hug Megan on the red carpet and it. was an obvious awkward moment. Oprah reportedly said no to doing. another interview with them. They're. they're not they're not what they. thought they'd be. And these two are. obsessed with celebrity. Meanwhile, Kate.

and William are like this, you know, everybody wants to book them. Everybody. wants to be near them. It's like, you. know, touching them gives you the. mightest touch. That's the image that. they have. But can we forget this image, this moment from Megan um after the uh. hold on a second. Yeah, it was it was. after the Oprah interview aired and they. included this bit in their Netflix. special about a special phone call that. Megan got three.

>> Be fiancé just texted. where they met. >> Shut up. >> Just checking in. >> Just checking in. Just casual. I still. can't believe I still can't believe she. knows who I am. >> Kind of cool. >> No, it's okay. She said. >> she wants me to feel safe and protected. She admires and respects my bravery and. vulnerability and she thinks I was. selected to break generational curses. that need to be healed. >> Oh god,

>> sad. >> Oh my god. >> Moren, can I just tell you something? So, you know, at the top of the show, I. teased this um behind the scenes stuff. on the MK tour and you're in this week's. episode. It's so good. Um but there like. it was funny because my producers, God. love them, had included like some some. over-the-top nice things that certain. characters had said about me, and I. said, "Please take all that out. Take. that out of there. We I don't want. that." You know, it's ridiculous. Like,

I I'm putting it out. If I'm putting it. out, it's like me complimenting myself. I'm not doing that. This had that. in her Netflix document. [laughter]. I'm reading. She praised my bravery, [laughter]. generational curses, traumas, and Harry, like the ballest wonder he is, is like, "That's right. That's right. You were. said to break the curses wrought by. generations of my family, the oldest.

monarchy in the West, I believe. You. know, it's incredible, too, because um I. don't believe that that was the text. Beyonce wrote. It just doesn't sound. like Beyonce. I have like a very very. very well sourced friend who um has told. me that she this was stuff she was. saying once she was behind palace walls. before the marriage. that she believed. she had been divinely ordained. to be the second coming of Princess.

Diana. >> Oh my, >> she's like unwell. She's a I think she's. a deeply unwell, dangerous person. I. think that the other thing, Megan, from. that Netflix documentary, which I don't. understand how any Brit will ever get. past, I mean, we just went through her. taking photos of Harry and the children. at what looked like a procession to. Diana's grave, which was said to enrage. Prince William, rightly so. The crossing.

of the ankles in the limousine while. driving past Diana's death tunnel. Um, the mock curtsy that she executed that. deep curtsy. >> Here it is. Sat n making fun of the. queen. >> Americans will understand this. [music]. We have medieval times dinner and. tournament. It was like that. Like I. curtsied as though I was like.

pleasure to meet you, your majesty. like was that okay? >> Oh my god, his reaction says it all. >> She's such an She's making fun. of it. And by the way, Megan, speak for. yourself. America at large does not. regard the British royal family as like. medieval times, >> the the franchise restaurant/the park.

We do not. But in that moment, and. that's where I I you see her deep. insecurity and lack of a self, the only. thing she knows how to do is try to. elevate herself, compensate for her deep insecurity, the. mask she's always wearing, by bringing. Harry and the British royal family down. to her level. Well, now I mean I'll be interested to. see and we'll cover this as it evolves, but I will be interested to see what. this does to the royal family because.

they've set off yet another bomb within. it. If it's true that they didn't tell. King Charles until this past Sunday that. the reports are both in people, so. they're claiming it and the Telegraph as. you pointed out that he didn't find out. until Sunday the 16th of August, which. was this past Sunday, right? Is that. this past Sunday or the one before it. got few days ago? >> Yeah, it's this past Sunday. So that he. didn't tell them. He didn't tell the the. king when he was over there and that the.

king found out as we all did basically. Um, and William and Kate reportedly. don't want this. So, what what's going. to happen now? I mean, how does this. threaten the royal family? Because poor. King Charles is now going to have to be. navigating between the one son who is. the heir, who has done his duty, who. didn't get a six-year reprieve hanging. out with Tyler, Perry, and Oprah. um who doesn't want them and doesn't. appreciate the split business nature of. the relationship as you point out Queen.

Elizabeth said no to. >> and the other son who just plays on his. heartstrings and says well if you want. to see your latest grandchildren you. know you'll allow me back and we'll be. able to do regular vis visits at all the. royal properties and you'll protect me. with adequate security and make me feel. like a royal like I like I want and so. poor King Charles who is aging and still. dealing with the fallout from the cancer. diagnosis has been placed in a very. difficult spot and this could really.

tear the whole family apart. I agree. with you. I think it's the greatest. existential threat since Andrew truly. Um, you know, they just sort of excised. that cancer only to have a different. kind re-enter the host. You know, this. this affects Britain. It's not it's not. just any family. And this is where I do. think Diana was right. and Charles is. weak. If they're going to insist upon. returning, I think the king needs to. make it very clear they're returning as.

private citizens. They they have no there there is no. place for them in the family that they. renounced. And you know, Charles isn't. the only member of this family who has. been dealing with cancer. Catherine was. diagnosed with cancer. And you know what. could have helped? when William was. dealing with a sick wife and three small. children and a sick father, having a. brother who hadn't betrayed him so many.

times in such deep, profound ways, who. had stayed and done the job and a. sister-in-law who understood her role. and stepped in to help. That would have. been that would have been what that's. what family does. I I I I think that. Charles is is I think I think there's. something even deeper here. I think and. it's dark, but I think Charles resents. William. I do. I think it's just. >> they say that there's a rift between.

those two that because William holds him. responsible for what happened to. William's mother. >> But William also has all of Diana's. gifts. He's got the charm, the. magnetism. total. >> the the he's he's uh photogenic. People. love him. He's got this image like, you. know, Charles resented Diana for all of. those qualities as well. Charles reads. the polls. He knows that the British. public, this job he's been waiting for. his entire adult life. He gets it. He.

gets sick. He reads the papers. He knows. that the British public would die for. William to ascend the throne sooner than. they. >> They want William. Yep. They want Will. >> So this is just something else. >> Sorry. >> There's something else. Those two. grifters want their children to grow up. close to the future future king. And I mean Prince George. So they have. George um what's the the name? Charlotte.

and then Louie. Okay. Now they know that. I think they know that Harry and William. are probably not going to reconcile. But. one day George will be king and I think. they want Lilet and Archie to be in a. position to be treated by that point as. equal royals to George and Charlotte and. Louie. That they can salvage that. generation. And Louie is only eight.

years old. And guess how old Archie is? He's seven years old. And there is a. report out today suggesting that they. are they're hoping to ingratiate. themselves with the wider British. family, like the royal British royal. family, all the other royals who are. running around out there, not named. William and Kate, and their children as. well. And think about it, and they want. them to go to these British schools. So. if if these kids follow in the footsteps. of William and Harry, then those boys. are going to go to Eaton. Um that's.

where Harry went. That's where William. went. and George, no, sorry, Louie and. Archie would be there at the same time. They they could potentially be in the. same grade or separated by a year. And I. guarantee you, these two are like, "Our. kids are going to get their little. British accents. They're going to get. their British education and they are. going to be just as popular and famous. and beloved as that Williams. Children's." Like that. I think they. feel the entitlement to it and they're.

like, "All we need to do is buy four. plane tickets and it's ours." I agree. with everything you're saying. I think. the one the one point I differ on is I. do not think Eton will allow Harry's. children to attend or Archie. It's an. all boy school. I don't think he will. allow it. Um, you know, they educate. future kings. You know, Harry wrote. wrote wrote of his time there terribly.

in spare. Why would he want to send his. child there? Again, I thought we were. protecting the innocence and privacy of. innocent children by moving to America. >> when uh the merching didn't work out so. well. We began seeing the children, the. backs of their heads, insight profile. Now, we want to integrate them. Integrating them into the family means. they're public property to a degree. You. have to work with the media. >> Oh, yeah. >> So, now they're going to work with the. media. I thought the media killed his. mother.

I. >> I thought the royal family tried to kill. her, Megan. >> Remember? >> Like, why would you go back to a family. that couldn't that cared so little about. your wife? They were ready to let her. kill herself. I mean, what this does is. just put the lie to all the freaking. whining that these two have been doing. for seven to 10 years now, right? They. tried to bully me into committing. suicide. They They won't protect me or. my family from the evil British racist.

public that wants to kill us. I could. never move my family back there because. we're not safe. We'll get killed. All of. that is by the wayside. And the the. royal family is obsessed with skin color. and wanted to know how dark my baby was. going to be. What? What? Right. We all. saw the theatrics around these lies. And. now it's we're back. welcome us back. We. love it here. And it's about the schools. or it's about Trump. That's what they. want. So wait, you're going to endanger.

your wife and your children because of. Trump or because you think you can't. find a good school in the United States. of America? I'm sorry, but we have some. of the greatest schools in the world. here. Everybody knows that. Especially. out in the fancy Monteceto area. Some. private school out there can't do better. than some British school. I I beg to. differ. Um, and by the way, she's like, I'm a California girl and I love the sun. and I Okay, you know what London is. like? Enjoy that. You're gonna be there. for the next 18 years or 15 while your.

kids go through the public school. She's. going to hate it. She's absolutely going. to hate it. So anyway, all these these. behaviors are putting the lie to all the. they've been spinning for. years. I know. And they're going right. back into the lion's m. I mean, what. kind of treatment do they think the. British tabloids are going to give them? This is partly why I really do think. this is the the we're building the. blocks to a divorce announcement. Megan. can go for 6 months. The children get. enrolled in boarding school. She can be.

by coastal. It doesn't really matter. They're in boarding school nine months. out of the year. She takes them on. summer vacations wherever she takes. them. you know, she gets, you know, you. know, a King Charles. And and this is. why this is why they should have. stripped the titles because if they. didn't have the titles, none of this. would be on the table. We wouldn't be. talking about what damage these wrecking. balls can do. They're such destroyers. Um, wait, what was I saying? I totally.

lost my train of thought. Wait, >> I I mean I Well, I have something for. you in any event because we only have a. couple minutes left and I want to get. this in. Last April she went on with. that ridiculous person Jamie Kern Lim. Lima um you know the he the one that. talks like this and listen to how she. described their their life now 11 are. you in love now more than ever more than. you've ever been. >> yeah I mean you have to imagine at the. beginning everyone has like butterflies. and and then we immediately went into.

the trenches together. >> Yeah. right out of the gate, like six. months into dating. So now, seven years. later, when you have a little bit of. breathing space, you can just enjoy each other in a new. way. And that's why I feel like it's. more of a honeymoon period for us now. >> Yeah. Do you think you'll be married. forever? >> Yes. >> I have a letter. >> He's also a fox if you haven't noticed.

My husband's very, very handsome, but. he's his heart is even more beautiful. I love that your eyes are sping right. now. >> Oh, Morin, I threw up in my mouth. >> All reports to the contrary that Harry's. got a bolt hole in Santa Monica where he. smokes weed and plays video game and. gets on literal British time. This was. the thing I was going to say that. reminded me. A King Charles, unlike a. King William, will happily cut Megan. Markle an enormous check to go away. And.

I think she's I think I think she would. be happy to take it. >> Yes. But how about that nonsense of. finally we have room to breathe. We were. in the trenches. And by that she means. Buckingham Palace, [laughter]. Kensington Palace, Balmoral that we we. were in the trenches six months later. You were wearing tiaraas, the. crown jewels, and having a wedding at.

Westminster Abbey, where the king of. England, Future, walked you down the. aisle. What? What kind of weird. revisionist history is this? Oh, and now finally, we have breathing. space. Oh, but we want to go back to. where we were being suffocated. We'd. like to go back to where they want me to. die. They want my children and and my. and my entire family to be in danger. from the racist British public and where. we cannot breathe any longer. And it's. because of the schools and Trump. Moren, this is perhaps the biggest line of.

these two have ever tried to. feed us. And we are only left to ask. ourselves why. What is the real reason? I'd love to hear from the audience. You. can email melly.com. I maintain they're not getting enough. attention. It really is the South Park. thing. We want privacy, which we all. know is fake. And no one here gives a. about royals. We just don't like. we'll pay them special homage when they. come by for a little visit. Like be cool. to see William and Kate. We were really.

nice to Charles cuz he was really nice. to us. But like living amongst us. daytoday, we don't give a We don't. believe in royalty. We're American. You're not special. And you two are. really not special. And especially in. Monteceto, which has got billionaires. and actually accomplished people and. they can't stand it. Moren, I'm sure. you'll have more on this on the nerve. this weekend for us. You got it. We we. this this thing broke last night and we.

had a we are original mini was going to. be all about um someone named Jeff who. bombed into our live chat and every. troublemaker, myself included, believes. Jeff. Megan was Oprah. >> Oh my gosh. >> It's it's and and. we have to do but we've had to we've had. to. >> put that on ice for a moment because we. we've got to address this lady. Like. this is the other thing. You're so right. about the celebrity part.

>> Important. >> You're you're so right about the. celebrity part, Megan. >> Up until yesterday afternoon, Wednesday. afternoon, the biggest celebrity story. of the week was Hayden Panitiier. Nobody's talking about her anymore. Now. we're talking about these two. They know. exactly what they're doing. >> Oh, it's so true. I mean, I'm sorry, but. you've got to do it. You've got to. rejigger from the other as as interested. as I am in Oprah possibly, aka Jeff. This is an all hands- on deck situation. We need We need to get to the bottom of. this. Is there a potential separation in.

the mix? Are we actually finding finally. rid of them over here in America? I'll. bet no one's happier than the Monteceto. neighbors who have been probably looking. at these two and all the people she's. bullied out there. In any event, um we. will stay on it as will the nerve as. will Teddy Van Halen, [laughter]. Marine's right-hand reporter on the. nerve. He found Steman, but possibly. just a cardboard cutout. More from her. over the weekend. And we will be back. more here with Kelly's Court right after. this.

Hey, thanks for watching today's full. episode. If you're new here, throw us a. subscribe. See what you think. Stay in. touch. There's plenty more goodness. where this one came from. As always, we. really do value your feedback. So, email. me, too. Megan megyn megan kelly.com or. just leave a comment down below. I do. read them. I meander over and I scroll. through and I find them very. entertaining and really appreciate the. feedback. But in any event, join the. community by becoming a subscriber. So, you miss nothing. We value your support. We may not always agree on positions,

but as you know, I'm very open-minded to. people who disagree with me. That's how. I learn. So, thanks and thanks for. trusting us to always talk about it. openly, honestly, and with provocative. conversations. When it comes to. supplements, there are two things that. matter. That it works and that you can. trust it. Rather than just tell you. about Relief Factor, we often bring you. what their real customers have to say. One real customer, Jim, said he ran out. of Relief Factor twice, and both times. his aches, stiffness, and pain came.

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18004 relief. You will connect with. their friendly local team and they will. do everything they can to help you. And. maybe you will be sharing your relief. factor story with them soon, too. We've. got some breaking news in the Carmelo. [music] Anthony case that you are not. going to believe. Uh as we kick off an. incredible Kelly's court, we'll have the. latest on the death investigation into. Hayden Penitentiier. Um, is her on-again. again, off-again boyfriend in potential. legal trouble? And the Lindsay Clancy. trial is back in session as her. supporters are cheering outside the.

courtroom and all over social media. We'll talk about why. Um, but we're. going to kick it off with Carmelo. Anthony. And guess who's here in the red. studio with me? It's defense attorney. former prosecutor Arthur Idala. He's. host of the Arthur Idala Power Hour. and. two of our MK True Crime Show hosts Dave. Aronberg and Ashley Merchant. Join me uh. via the transom, the magic of. satellites. Go and subscribe to their. twice a week show uh that they host. along with our pal Phil Holloway by. going to mktrime.com.

Find it on YouTube. Just go to the. podcast button on your phone and type in. mktrime and you will follow them if you. hit subscribe. Guys, welcome back. Great. to see you. Uh Dave and Ashley and great. to have you here in studio. >> What a thrill. This is the room where it. happens. Guys, I'm in actually I'm in. the room where it happens. >> Jealous. I'm not going to lie. I am. jealous. I want to be there in the. party. >> He Arthur's not going to be so thrilled. in about five minutes when the heat of. my studio starts to kick in. >> Oh, no. [laughter] That's that's fun.

I'm I am thrilled cuz I get to spend. time with your husband and that's that's. always a fun time. >> A Doug is a [clears throat] good man. All right, guys. Great to see you. This. is We got to start with Carmemelllo. Anthony because just as I was talking. about Megan Markle, holy cow, the update. in this case is genuinely stunning. Um, okay. My papers are everywhere. >> Well, he's basically um. >> I know what it is. I just want to find. >> Having dreams about stabbing people and. licking the blood off the knife. >> He's so excited. Be quiet here. Let me. tell them what it actually is. Okay. [clears throat].

Daily Mail's uh Marann Martinez. reporting because they're in court this. morning on Carmelo Anthony on the. defense motion to get him a retrial a. new trial saying that there had been a. gentleman's agreement that we weren't. going to do character evidence at this. trial and and the prosecution somehow. violated that by making some passing. reference to like what Austin Metaf. liked to do or what Carmemelllo Anthony. liked to do for fun. It was just it was. it's such a hail Mary by the defense. But something big happened in court this. morning when the prosecutor got up and.

did not deny that there was a. gentleman's agreement to not go to the. character place on either the accused. Carmelo Anthony who stabbed and killed. Austin Metaf at a track meet for. absolutely nothing. Austin told him he. had to leave Austin's team's tent and. Carmemelllo Anthony instantly stabbed. him. um or Austin Metaf. They they both. sides agreed, we're not going to do. character evidence on either the. defendant or the deedent. And the. prosecutor got up there and said, "We.

did have such an agreement, but let me. tell you what we would have introduced. had we gone there. It would have been. like cuz now the defense is like, we. should have been able to do that. We're. going to do that." You know, we could. have talked about what a bad person. Austin Mechaf was. And he's like, "How. about Carmemelllo Anthony, the actual. defendant? Here's what I had in my back. pocket. He says, first of all, Car. Carmelo Anony's girlfriend, Valyria, would have testified that they that she.

went to school the morning of the. stabbing, April 2nd, 2025, and she told. school officials that she had she told. school officials that she had broken up. with Carmelo Anthony, and that he was. stalking her. So, this had happened that. morning. 1 hour later, Austin Metaf was. dead, according to the prosecutor. Clearly painting a picture of this kid, you know, so-called Carmelo Anthony who. was a hotthead who was angry that.

morning in some level of emotional. distress and turmoil already at the time. he showed up at the track meet. It's. starting to come together, that hair. trigger he had. But here's the real. headline. Uh, so first of all, he texted. the girlfriend, "I'm low-key on the. verge." He texted her the morning of the. stabbing. The verge of what? We're not. sure exactly. However, the prosecutor. says Anthony had a history of violence. and that he wanted to stab someone. Quote, "There is a text message where he.

fantasizes about stabbing someone and. licking the blood off the blade." he. said of Anthony. He was obsessed with. starting fights, said the prosecutor, and he was prepared to prove that, revealing Anthony had previously been. taken by his parents to a special. program at LSU for kids who cannot keep. them h their hands to themselves. Um he. went on to say, let's see, um there was.

one other thing suggesting that there. was Oh yeah, there was previous. aggressive behavior and text messages. about a knife in particular. Uh that. came out a little bit after. So all of. this is deeply disturbing and would not. have helped Carmelo Anthony at all, Arthur. So what what [clears throat] do. you make of it? Well, first of all, this. this type of evidence usually only comes. out if the defendant's going to testify. You can't unless it's absolutely. relevant. Now, maybe the part about the.

girlfriend going that day because that's. relevant, right? That's within hours of. this happening, that may have come out, but it didn't. And I mean, that's the. thing, the difference between a jury and. a judge. A judge at this point, you. could let it all hang out. And Megan, I. mean, I think Hail Mary is what you the. term you use. I I would say a miracle. In other words, they made a passing. reference to him being not a nice kid, but they really had a tremendous amount. of ammunition. He kills a guy with a.

knife and they have text messages of him. dreaming of stabbing with a knife and. then licking the blood off his blade. I. mean, this case is not going anywhere. And it's and it's a new judge, right? They wanted the judge recused. He wasn't. going to be fair and impartial. Good. I'm happy there's a new judge with a. clean slate. And he I'm sure this judge. is going to be like, "Okay, I think. everything went well at the trial.". >> Yes. Exactly. Because it seems like a. no-brainer that, you know, this. Carmemelllo Anthony does not deserve a. new trial. This is the new judge. They. got rid of the old judge because he gave. an interview to the press, Dave. And um.

made all sorts of statements of like, I. think my ruling on allowing them to. strike those black jurors was correct. I. think the jury verdict was correct. And. was saying a bunch of stuff that it's. very rare that we see a judge give. interviews like that. And the defense. [clears throat] made the most of it and. said, "You you need to recuse." He would. he didn't rec recuse. He got bounced off. of hearing these motions by an. independent judge that they brought in. to evaluate the motion. And now the. judge has been bounced. But the new. judge doesn't exactly seem like a softy,

Dave. He's um lifelong Republican. They. don't tend to be softies on the bench. He also was very well respected when he. was on the bench. He only retired in. 2020. and he's got some history of. actually increasing sentences when they. come back around before him. So, I'm not. sure they're going to like the new judge. anymore than they like the old judge. What do you make of all this breaking. news? >> Yeah, be careful what you wish for. factor. >> Be careful what you wish for. You know, you got the new judge, same as the old. judge, right? It's this is guy's going. to be very tough. [laughter].

>> You I do think it was the right decision. to balance the old judge because he did. give a press interview where he said. that he thought the jury got it right. with the guilty verdict. Okay. Well, the. standard is whether uh it creates a. reasonable expectation of bias or an. appearance of partiality. And yeah, when. you're asking for a new trial, when the. judge has already prejudged it, it's. good to to get a new judge. And that's. good for appeal. So, they can't uh keep. this going on any longer because the. evidence is overwhelming against Carmela. Anthony. And when they say, well, we had.

a deal with the prosecutors not to put. on evidence about the character of. Carmela Anthony, all this other stuff. And then that's why we didn't put on our. client Carmemelllo Anthony because if we. had then the prosecutors say they were. going to go after him for character. Well, now we know the real reason why. they didn't put Carmelo Anthony on the. stand. It wasn't because of a deal with. prosecutors. It's because they had some. smoking gun evidence about his text and. his fight with his girlfriend.

>> That's exactly it. Well said. that the. all this Ashley, of like, well, we had a gentleman's agreement. and, you know, once we realized the. prosecution wasn't gonna wasn't going to. honor it, we couldn't put him on the. stand. Oh, and by the way, they said we. only had 10 minutes to decide whether to. put Carmelo on the stand. And the. prosecutor actually um is featured in. this report by CBS Texas. I'm going to. play it quickly. SP 49 on whether that's. true, too. Listen to this. This aired on. July 20th. Howard's new affidavit says.

he was 99% sure before the trial that. Anthony would testify. He blames part of. the reason he didn't on being rushed. during the closed door hearing and the. judge declining to extend our time. beyond 10 minutes. But the trial. transcript shows that behind closed. doors, the judge gave Anthony a lengthy. explanation of his rights and that the. defense had more than a half hour beyond. that to consider their next move, even. allowing Anthony to consult with his. parents before telling the judge, "I. don't want to testify." Did you think. you had ample time to talk to your.

lawyers about that and got feedback from. them? Feedback from your family? You. have had enough time to make that. decision? Anthony replied, "Yes, sir, we. did.". >> What was your reaction to seeing this. affidavit? I was surprised. I was. disappointed and frankly a little. confused. I mean, I was there for every. minute of the trial and Bill Worerski. and our prosecution team, they conducted. this case so fairly and cleanly and. professionally. >> Go ahead, >> Megan. This is so clear. They wanted a. door number three and there was no door. number three. And that happens a lot. I.

mean, he wanted a door where he could. testify and none of this evidence would. come in. That's not possible. No matter. how you spin it, no matter how many. gentleman's agreements you have, how you. try to wiggle it. if he took the stand, this evidence was going to come in and. this evidence was going to sink him. And. that's why he didn't take the stand. And. I guarantee you, they didn't have 10. minutes to talk about this. I guarantee. you, they've been talking about this for. a year because the first thing you do if. you're a defense lawyer is you're going. to look at this and you're going to say, "Oh my god, my client has made. statements like this, has made threats. with a knife. I mean, he had a prior. school incident, you know, where he had.

been quasi suspended from school. I. mean, he had been taken to, you know, this this treatment facility, I guess, for kids who couldn't keep their hands. to themselves. I mean, all of these. things are things that would come up if. Carmemelllo Anthony took the stand and. any defense lawyer would know that. there's a huge risk that's going to come. out and it's going to be highly relevant. and they wanted a door number three and. there was no door number three. So, they. had to make a choice. They don't like. that choice and now they're trying to go. back because they want to try again with. another choice and that's not how it. works. The um just a little bit more from.

[clears throat] that first report that I. was reading about what happened in court. came from the Daily Mail. This is from. CBS Texas and their reporting is similar. but adds a little bit of a new element. where they say um. the the morning this is from the. prosecutor Bill Worski. He said a lot of. people have asked why Carmemelllo. Anthony took a knife to attract me. Those reasons were captured in our 404. motion about allowing in prior bad acts. by the defendant. Um the morning of the. stabbing, his ex-girlfriend goes to an. assistant principal saying she broke up.

with Carmelo and he was stalking her. Anthony, there's an Anthony text message. saying. um I'm on the verge the morning before. the stabbing and emphasized uh and and. that he emphasized something that it's. disjointed this report, but then this. reporter says he also threatened her. with a knife. He threatened the. girlfriend with a knife in one message. and told her in another, "When I stab. someone, I'm going to lick their blood. off the blade.".

So, it seems like he might have made a. specific threat to the girlfriend, which. is why she's in reporting it to the. principal. >> Yeah. And and you know, Megan, every. this case, honestly, and I know you kind. of agree, this was a no-brainer, right? I mean, he stabs this kid in the chest. for basically no reason. And all this. and none of us are happy when a young. person like Carmela Anthony is now going. to spend his basically his life in. prison. But it makes you feel more. comfortable about what really happened. here. I mean, and and this stuff, if you. testify, I don't care about gentleman. There's no gentleman's agreement. There's.

if a defendant testifies, you know, there's what that I mean, look, this is. a different location than Manhattan or. in Brooklyn where I where I practice. But it's the rules of evidence. And if. I'm the prosecutor, I'm going to do. everything I can to get that in. I'm. going to bust my butt to argue to the. judge, why is this relevant? It has to. go to his mindset that day. This isn't. re This isn't from five years ago. This. is right there. And then the girlfriend. she's report she's her fear is so. heightened that she's reporting it to.

authorities. That is something if I'm a. juror I want to know that that this kid. on that particular day he had hate in. his heart. I mean that's. >> he was itching for a fight and more than. just a fight. I mean Sarah Fields who's. been doing great reporting. [clears throat] on this. She reports. Um, my multiple sources have been. telling me there is so much more about. Carmelo Anthony behavior, texts on his. phone that go back for years. I mean, Dave, we need to see this because the. the uh Austin Metast family is still.

being harassed by these lunatics down. there who think somehow their dead son. is to blame for going over to Carmelo. Anthony and saying, "You need to leave. this tent. This is for our team.". >> Yeah. by the fact that they've made so. much noise and are claiming that they. didn't get a fair shake and they need a. new judge. It does open the door for all. the stuff to come out at least in the. court of public opinion because it to. think that this was somehow. self-defense. Now we know why he brought. the knife to the track meet and we know.

it's not self-defense. This was not a. spontaneous act. this was something a. guy who was a ticking time bomb and they. had a scrap a disagreement and at at. worst it should have been like a pushing. fight which it was instead he brought a. knife into it and so there is no. sympathy for him Arthur is right we. don't want to see young people go to. prison for life but he took the life of. another person and destroyed a family. and now that family is also being. dragged through the mud so it's. important for the truth to come out.

>> yes Ashley the um the report uh Again, back to the Daily Mail's Maryanne. Martinez is that Meetaf's mom is almost. in tears in this courtroom this morning. with eyes closed as the prosecutor is. talking about how there was almost a. shooting at her house leading up to the. trial and how the medavs were doxed. multiple times that it's the the victims. are being treated like they're the. perpetrators. And I really think I mean,

who knows? But like the the public. release of who Carmemelllo Anthony. really was is overdue. There's no reason. I mean I guess the prosecutors were. trying to preserve his the case pending. appeal getting final rulings and all. that, right? Is that what other reason. would there be not to release that? >> It's really interesting that you bring. that point up because that's one thing. that's really kind of bothered me about. this the entire time. They did a lot of. stuff in secret. So these 404b motions. is what we call them as lawyers and it's. just it's it's you know trying to keep. out prejuditial evidence. So evidence. that maybe Carmemelllo had been in.

fights before. Essentially the. government wants to bring that in. The. defense wants to keep it out. And so you. file these things called 4 or 4B. motions. Well, typically they're filed, it's a public filing. I mean, things. that are filed in the court docket is. public. Typically, these hearings are. held publicly. In this case, they didn't. file them in the court's docket. The. judge kept them and they had these. hearings sort of in secret. And so, you. know, as a member of the public, that. really bothers me. What's interesting. though is Carmemelllo Anthony is trying. to use that to get a new trial, but it. actually benefited him because the.

things that were in these motions are. all of these prior bad acts. You know, the prior instances of violence or prior. instances where maybe he was stalking. his girlfriend or he was making these. heated texts, you know, whatever. happened at the school that we still. don't know about, but maybe by 5:00. today, we'll know about, you know, whatever led for him to go to this. program at LSU. All of this stuff is. probably in those motions. And so, the. court was really protecting him this. whole time. But yet, while the court was. trying to protect him and keep all this. secret, the internet was able to make up. all these false narratives and really.

spin this in a way that's it's just it's. awful what's happened. I mean, even the. lawyers have been threatened. You know, both sides, the defense, the state, and. [clears throat] I don't think that that. was really ever anybody's intention. But. I think if the world had really known. the truth from the beginning that maybe. we wouldn't be where we are here today. >> Here's the other thing, Arthur, that we. we found this out yesterday. Um, back to. Sarah Fields, she found this and. actually Carmelo's lawyer's affidavit, his trial attorney, Michael Howard, submitted an affidavit about an off.

there-cord agreement, this gentleman's. agreement he allegedly had with the. prosecutors and so on. So, this comes. from Carmelo's side and he writes um, in. sentencing uh, in reliance upon this. agreement, the defense did not designate. an expert who was ready to testify. regarding mitigation on behalf of. Carmelo. don't give him a really mean. sentence because all these terrible. things happened to him when he was a. child and so you should feel bad for. him. And so this is what he is now. arguing saying because of this. gentleman's agreement, we did not um we.

did not bring up a character witness to. offer mitigation. And so the defense. severely limited its available character. witnesses to just three questions of Mr. Anony's mother. But here's what I'm. getting to. He writes, "Other than. general character testimony and pleas. for mercy in reliance upon that. agreement, the defense also did not go. into substantial family violence Mr. Anthony had witnessed and had been a. victim of in his own home." Now, I'm.

sorry, but these parents of his. >> Yeah, I know, >> right? [clears throat] Have been all. over the news trying to paint the Metafs. and the the poor dead Austin as a racist. with no evidence. How many times have we. seen this Mr. George Floyd all of after. he died all of a sudden was a saint. George Floyd people who had never dealt. with him dealt with his mental illness. dealt with his addiction all of a sudden. they were there and his brother I mean. this is it's like a script um and I I'll. answer your question but the sad part.

and I'll ask you the question if both of. these kids were white or both of these. kids were black would it be more than a. one day story. >> maybe it wouldn't be this big but I mean. a kid for apparently no reason shoving a. knife in another kid's that is a big. story. >> Yeah. But it it's so obvious what. happened. This this wasn't a who done. it. No. >> Right. It was like, what happened? And. >> there really there really wasn't a. bright there really wasn't much of a. why. I mean, could you leave the tent? I'm going to stab you in the heart. So, I don't I don't This is foreign to me.

If when you're doing a All right. So, someone gets convicted of murder. I. don't care if you're 12 years old or 112. years old. Of course, you put your best. foot forward. Yes. If they put forward. he had these dreams of licking blood off. a knife, but you know that the kid got. beaten as a kid, Carmemelllo Anthony, let's say his father abused his mother. or father abused him. He was sexually. You got to put all of that out there and. just throw it all on the judge's lap and. say, "Look, judge, here's the good and. here's the bad and here we are." Why. would you hold that back? >> He didn't do it. I I think he didn't do.

it because the parents probably didn't. want him to do it, right? Those parents. were enjoying being seen as saints. David Ashley. They were out there with. their little weird press guy who was. throwing the race card in everybody's. face based on nothing. And they wanted. to look like, "Oh, we're the we're the. grieving parents. We're the ones who. have lost something." Meanwhile, they. took the GoFundMe money and it appears. that they spent it on some $900,000. rental and blew a lot of that cash. Um, and I'm sure they didn't want it coming. out. It's no accident, Ashley. Only now. is Carmelo's lawyer saying, "Geez, I.

only asked the mother three questions on. mitigation and wasn't it's all the mean. prosecutor's fault that I didn't get. into the fact that he had been sub that. he did not go into substantial family. violence he had witnessed and had been a. victim of in his home home in his own. home." He's saying that there was. somebody was beating somebody up inside. that home and Carmelo Anthony was one of. the people who got beaten up. By whom? the sweet loving parents. Exactly. So, so Megan, you know me, so this won't.

surprise you at all. As soon as I saw. that, Mr., you know that I don't even. know if his name is Mr. Anthony, but his. father did not testify, I immediately. started running his records um. immediately. And I was curious, why did. they move to Texas from Louisiana? You. know, the the allegation was they were. trying to get away from something bad. Well, he has a substantial record. He's. got lots of issues, lots of cases open. in Louisiana. He's got, you know, where. he's had probation that hasn't been. finished. you know, just different. things. Nothing super serious on the. record, but lots of little cases, lots. of involvement with law enforcement,

lots of involvement with the court. system. So, it didn't surprise me at. all. And I assumed immediately that's. why this man did not testify in defense. of his son. I certainly didn't know that. it it rose to the level of PTSD. But. immediately when he didn't testify, I. thought, okay, there's something that. they want to hide. Well, why are they. trying to hide that? Because it would. help Carmelo. If if he abused Carmelo, that would help him in mitigation and. that potentially could help Yeah. It. could help his self-defense, too. I. mean, if you know, if they had an expert. that says, well, he was beaten and so, you know, he was more of quick to defend.

himself, that could have potentially. helped. Um, they didn't do any of that. So, I think you're right that they did. it for money because if they had done. that, the donations are going to dry up. You know, why else would you not. >> What other reason could there be? Dave. Aronberg, what [clears throat] if you're. talking about saving this kid's life? He's just been convicted by a jury of of. murder and you're the defense lawyer. Aren't you go? It was shocking how. little mitigation he he attempted. It. was shocking that he had they had the. mother on the stand. He's I think one of. the questions was like, "Was he sorry?".

And she's like, "Yeah, he was sorry. No, he was." That's it. Like there was no. mitigation. Why wouldn't you any normal. parent would be like, even if it weren't. true, most be like, "I beat him. I fault. my%. I did something. I screwed the kid. up. Whatever, you know, and like it's like she didn't. go there." And now we're learning a lot. >> Yeah. It's like criminal defense 101. when the Parkland massacre happened. You. remember the killer who slaughtered 17. innocents in Marjgery Stone Douglas High.

School. One of his defenses at the. penalty phase of the trial was that his. mother smoked while he was in the womb. So this is like. >> Oh my god. >> I mean this is like. >> So did my mom. I that explains a lot. >> My mom probably drank when I was in the. that would explain A LOT TOO. >> YES. MY MOM'S DEFENSE WAS NEVER IN the. first three months. >> Yeah. After that, you can have a glass. of red wine once a week. >> Just replace everything about my SAT. score. Keep going, Dave. [laughter]. >> It's true, though. No, it's funny how. all of our mothers did that. But yes, it.

this is an area that's right for. bringing up and penalty phases and and. mitigation. But it's interesting, you. know, all this stuff comes out now that. they had a deal that wasn't honored. It. wasn't brought up during the trial. In. fact, the judge kept asking the defense. lawyer, "Okay, are we all good? There's. no nothing, no deals or anything. everyone is happy with the each other. and there was none of this stuff brought. up during the trial only after the. result was bad. Now it's like okay now. we have to complain about this and also. there are at least 600,000 reasons not.

to bismerch the parents. That's the. amount of money that the parents raised. from the give andgo fundraising. operation by the time of the trial. So. they had every reason not to bring their. names up because they were raising a lot. of money and there are a lot of. questions of where that money went. Man, >> can I just ask my colleagues here. because you know I I'm primarily in the. tri-state area and you're in Florida and. Georgia like do you guys have these. handshake agreements with prosecutors.

like all right I won't do this and you. don't in a murder case you know maybe if. it's a DWI or something like that but I. mean I you know we just that just. doesn't exist in my world. >> No that does not exist. We put. everything on the record. We would have. it in writing. There is no way I would, you know, depend have my entire defense. based on some backdoor gentleman's. agreement that wasn't even ironed out. I. would have very specific things. That's. ridiculous. >> How about you, Dave? You just in the. business of prosecuting people. >> for 12 years. Uh, when I was state. attorney, I know I our office would not.

have entered into some side deals with. with defense lawyers. You do that and. that is just you're risking having your. conviction overturned on appeal. you're. also risking the reputation of your. office because there's inevitably going. to be disputes. Oh, you didn't live up. to that. Because once the defense loses, they're going to point to something in. that deal and say, "You're the problem.". Because they don't like to admit that. they're the problem. So, what Carmelo. Anthony should do is that realize he's. not going to get a new trial and then do. his direct appeals and on his appeals do.

an ineffective assistance of counsel. claim. Blame your lawyers. Maybe that's. his best shot of getting out of prison. >> Yeah. No, it's true. I was shocked to. see the prosecutor admitting, "Yeah, we. did have this agreement." It's like, >> why why would you do that? What do you. what what has he put has like we're kind. of ripping on this whole thing, but like. is there a chance that this judge won't. see it as a. >> hail? I I don't think I don't think the. prosecutor had the had they had this. gentleman's agreement that the. prosecutor is admitting they had and.

they introduced the evidence of the. dream with the licking the blood off the. knife but I don't they didn't breach the. agreement to such a degree that it. changed the facts of the case right. there something called harmless error. >> so was this I mean the facts of this. case are indisput indisputed so it's it. wasn't like oh these we didn't know if. he was going to be guilty or guilt not. guilty on a knife's edge and this one. little thing that the prosecutor said. that he said he shouldn't have said is. what made the verdict happen. It's just. again it goes back to harmless harmless. error analysis.

>> Yeah. I I see it as the the defense took. a gamble on this agreement which does. sound like it was kind of a good. agreement for the defense. You. >> all this stuff doesn't come in. I don't. know why the prosecutor wouldn't fight. to put that in. >> I mean it's amazing. a conviction with or without this. Might. as well make it as bulletproof as I can. But so but the defense agreed to it and. only now do they want another bite at. the apple because that now with the. benefit of 2020 hindsight they see oh it. didn't work didn't work out. So I'm just. going to say whatever I agreed to was. was a problem and uh it was a little.

funky. So maybe I'll get a judge to say. this was too funky for me and uh it's a. murder trial so I'm reversing this. But. I agree. I don't think that's what's. going to happen here. I think the judge. is going to say no retrial for you. All. right. I want to move on because we we. talked a bit about was there domestic. violence inside the Carmelo Anthony. home. Well, there was domestic violence. inside Hayden Penitentiary's home by. this disgusting boyfriend. I I I mean, this guy is the lowest of the low. I. cannot believe and I'm so sad that this. woman spent a big portion of the last.

six, seven years with this guy. They met. in 2018. By 2019, he was abusing her. By. 2020, there was a criminal case against. him. and he he w he I can't remember. right now whether he was found guilty or. pleaded guilty. Either way, there was a. guilty result. He was convicted of. punching her in the face. The police saw. her right after. There was no question. that it happened. He's admitted to it. Um some jail time, some probation, and. reportedly a 5-year restraining order,

which neither one of them lived up to. She invited him back into her life. This. is a pattern many domestic violence uh. survivors are familiar with. And now the. reporting on this case has uh just come. out that the DEA is now involved in this. in investigating where those drugs came. from. That she reportedly had like a. suitcase full of drugs uh with her. that. um there's a new report out today that 3.

months ago when she was on her media. tour, like this is my victory moment. I'm together now. >> She was doing drugs then that she tried. to order whippets. >> Yeah. She was doing weird drugs. >> Nitrous oxide. >> Yeah. I mean, >> isn't that what you get at the dentist? >> Yeah. That's like when high school. stuff. >> Yeah. When you were kids, you'd put it. in a balloon and it's almost like. sucking a helium. It'll talk like this. and it like and it lasts for like six. >> [laughter]. >> I've done that. >> It's really fast. It makes your head. very long. >> It's a 60-second.

>> I think we're too old. We're We're not. the right demo. Clearly, >> Megan, to your point, you know, my my. law partner is retired Judge John. Lethal. He was the first domestic. violence judge in the United States of. America 25 years a 30 years ago now, where we didn't really know domestic. violence because common sense would. dictate if anyone punches you in the. face, you're not really going to hang. it. Maybe it's your brother or your. sister, but besides that, you're going. to get away. Especially you have means. Like a lot of women get trapped because. of the finances, right? They can't leave.

because there's a child, right? There's. a child and then the finances and. >> but there is a psychological aspect to. this where you get the like this locked. in and sometimes the women snap and we. have created a a defense to murder. called battered woman syndrome. >> There's a whole TV series called. snapped. >> Right. Yeah. I've been on it. I have. I. I'm like, well, not me, but my client. has been on it. Um, but yes, and it. looks like that's what happened here. This woman had the means. She had the. means to escape, but I guess it's the.

combination of the domestic violence, PTSD, and then the drug addiction, sadly, tragically, led to her death. >> Yes. Okay. Now, Debbie Murphy tells me. via WebMD, "Whippetss or nitrous oxide. are popular inhalent drugs. You may also. hear them referred to as whippets or. whippetss. That's the same thing. The. drug gets its name from whipped cream. aerosol canisters that people open to. misuse the gas inside. Nitrous oxide. cuts off oxygen to the brain, creating a. euphoric high that lowers your mental. and physical pain. All right. So, it's.

I'm still not clear on how it differs. from like what they give you at the. dentist, but okay. I've never had it at. my dentist, but I once I've told my. audience once I had a laser done on my. knees. Ashley, you'll appreciate this. You know, when you age your knees Yeah. your your your skin starts to sag around. your cricket and I didn't want sk. sagging skin on my knees. So, I had this. laser procedure done and they gave me. the nitrous oxide. >> So, two things. The nitrous oxide only. works very briefly. It works like for. like 15 seconds. Um, and secondly, that.

laser procedure worked, man. Because the. knees look so good after like. >> What would your nana say about you. getting your knees lasered? >> Why not? She [laughter] called me a. stupid jackass. >> She said it, not me. Never said it, not. me. >> I'm just saying this the only time I had. the nitrous oxide, which I think is what. you had. Anyway, whatever. I digress. So, [clears throat]. now the DEA is involved. And this to me. spells serious trouble for this. boyfriend who was with her along with. his brother when she died. And by the.

way, the the reporting yesterday, we. didn't do a show on on this yesterday, was that um. >> they didn't call 911 to report that. Hayden was there dead until 1:50 in the. afternoon and Brian, the boyfriend, was. still asleep. Yeah, it was the. >> according to the reports. >> Okay. So, you're asleep at 2:00 in the. afternoon. You're doing the drugs, too. [clears throat] In my opinion, that's. what's likely to come out. And you tell. me whether um Dave, the the DEA getting. involved in this telegraphs Yeah.

federal charges may be under. consideration. >> Yeah, look what happened to Matthew. Perry. The DEA got involved there. because they're going to go find the. source of the drugs. It used to be the. law enforcement officers would just say, "Okay, it's another uh a drug abuser. who's died now day days, we look at the. chain and try to find the ones who sold. them the drugs." The problem is a lot of. people who are in the throws of. addiction have a number of drug dealers. on speed dial. So, it can be tough. But. now now you have the boyfriend who was. involved and he's got a criminal past.

He's got a rap sheet. And so I think. there's a lot more to it. I don't think. this will be the end of this. investigation. And and one more thing, Megan, maybe [clears throat] you. wouldn't have had saggy knees if your. mom hadn't smoked during pregnancy. [laughter]. >> Once again, back to my mother's. decisions. I mean, most of us born in. the 70s have a picture with our mothers. with their big pregnant bellies like. resting a martini glass. >> with a cigarette [laughter] in their. hand. And with a cigarette like Yeah. With a cigarette in there makes you.

stronger. >> Yeah, that's right. Exactly. So, um, you. tell me, Ashley, would you be worried? I. feel like this guy's defense attorney. who represented him in his domestic. violence cases is probably calling him. saying, >> "Keep your mouth shut. >> Oh, yeah. >> Don't talk to the feds. >> Don't be helpful.". >> Definitely. >> And there was a report just yesterday. that um cops were seen. They're now I I. guess he and the brother are reportedly. now staying with their mother, like. their family of origin, Betty Ellison. And yesterday at 8:20 in the morning,

page six of the New York Post, reporting. exclusively that cops were seen um. sniffing around the home. They came, they knocked, nobody answered, although. people were inside, they left, they were. reportedly conducting a quote welfare. check, and then I think they went back. and did it again. Uh so they're. definitely sniffing around there. >> Oh yeah. If I was Brian, the boyfriend, I would be really worried. I'd first be. worried about his brother. So, his. brother Zach is a preacher and has. apparently had, you know, strong.

feelings for Hayden in his life, whether. or not they dated. There's been some. rumors about that, but the reports are. that he was just distraught when they. found her. So, if he cared for her that. much and if he thinks his brother had. something to do with her death, I'd be. really worried about the police talking. to him from a defense perspective. I'd. also be worried about the DEA poking. around because they are they're strong. and the DEA when they start asking. questions, people start talking. People. get real scared and so if he gave her. these drugs, he had to get them from. somewhere. He didn't make them, you. know, he got them from somewhere and. folks are willing to talk when the feds.

come knocking. I wouldn't be as worried. about the state charges because most. likely he probably was using the drugs. with her. I mean, like you said, he was. sleeping till noon and there's actually. defense in Tennessee state court if they. they had their own statute that you can. be prosecuted if someone dies. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. And so in South. Carolina, they've got a statute where. you can be prosecuted if someone dies. while, you know, they've basically taken. drugs that you gave them, but if you did. it together, that's a defense. So, you. know, he might have a defense to that, but the feds I'd be really worried.

about. >> That's so wacky. If as long as you shoot. yourself up too or take the drugs as. well, then you can get out of jail. >> It's a weird concept. >> But so here's here's the report from TMZ. this morning, Arthur. Uh, police are not. satisfied. Hayden Penitent's death was a. tragic overdose of prescribed meds. because they are trying to determine if. there could be criminal conduct behind. it. Law enforcement sources involved in. the case tell TMZ they are conducting a. death investigation to see if some. illegality is behind her death. Um they. said yeah Wednesday they went to the.

family home of her boyfriend Brian. Hickerson. It would appear police want. information from Brian regarding any. circumstance that might be connected to. her death. And then, you know, my team. went through and there's a bunch of. possible charges that could be brought. federally, which would explain the DEA's. interest in all of this if Brian. Hickerson provided the drugs. I mean, the the person who the assistant who was. getting the drugs from Matthew Perry got. ultimately sentenced to 41 months in. prison. >> But that's a great example of how it's.

kind of easier to find who gets the. drugs. What Dave said is right on. A lot. of these guys, you know, unfortunately. I've been on Volve with deceased. families as well. You know, they want. answers, right? And then when you. eventually get into their phone, there's. like eight numbers, there's 10 numbers. And yes, you try to go back and see, but. then how do you prove well the drugs he. got from John on Tuesday and then he got. drugs from Jose on Wednesday. How do you. know which drugs he took and which ones.

had fentanyl and which ones didn't have. fentanyl? So, as a prosecutor, Dave can. tell you it's very hard to eventually. prosecute someone. With Perry, it was it. was that all of those different drug. dealers were going through one person, right? There was a bottleneck and it. went through them and you were able to. much more easily prove he's the guy who. actually handed them the drugs. But I. got to tell you, like I don't know if. I'll ask Ashley and Dave, >> overdosing on whippit is like not. something I I don't even think I don't. even think it's possible, isn't it? Yeah. I mean cause of brain damage.

before death. >> The report about that May ingestion or. attempted ingestion of drugs said it was. both whippets and alcohol not which she. also shouldn't have been having if she. was a recovering alcoholic as she was. portraying. So it was multiple attempts. to embibe something some sort of. substance uh to you know get a high at a. time when she was on this book tour. What were you going to say d? >> Yeah the guy who is the assistant to. Matthew Perry Iamasa is his name. He he. didn't just arrange for the drugs. He. injected Perry with the fatal doses.

Then he left and he found Perry dead in. the hot tub and he tried to cover it up. So his fingerprints were all over this. mess and and he plead guilty. Not sure. >> But don't you think this guy could go. down if we have no proof whatsoever of. this. But if he did give her the drugs, even if there wasn't an injection. situation. >> Yeah, he enabled if he was able to hand. the drugs to her. Yes, he could go down. for it. They would need proof. And then. you have the brother perhaps testifying. against his brother, especially if he if. he was in love uh with her as Ashley.

mentioned. So I this is a a very. interesting situation that I think you. will see some charges down the road. But. but uh Arthur and I identified the. problem if you're going to identify the. source. If you're going to track the. source, there are so many potential. sources. It's easier to get right at the. bottleneck the brother or the the. boyfriend who would have been there to. give her the drug. >> All right, stand by. Uh we're going to. take a quick break, but we have more to.

do and then we got to hit on Lindsay. Clancy. [music] More with our Kelly's. Court team after this. Let's talk about something that isn't. always the most comfortable subject, but. it is incredibly important, and that is. making sure the people you love have. financial security if and when something. happens to you. Hear me out. Life. insurance can be easy to put off, but. getting coverage does not have to be. complicated or unpleasant. This is why. you need to know about Ethos. Ethos. makes getting life insurance fast and. easy, and the entire process is 100%.

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Get your free quote at ethos.com/mk. That is ethos.com/mk. Application times may vary. Rates may. vary too. On the Hayden Penitentiier. [music]. thing, just before we move on from that, did you guys see the reports of her. mother and the what the mother said. after her death this week? Now, her. mother has emerged as like a villain in. this whole thing. She she sounds like. she was a terrible mother. First of all, you shove your kid into Hollywood, you. know, as a baby and thereafter. I It's.

such a terrible decision and it's so. harmful to the child seems like reckless. to me. >> So now her daughter was on camera and on. the record in her book saying, "I went. to my mom when I was 19. She was 36 when. she died this week, and said, "Mom, you. can't be both my manager and my mother. Would you please just be my mother?" And. the mother's response, according to. Hayden, was you owe me. >> Wow. and wouldn't wouldn't let go of the. the money role. And now her name is. Leslie Vogel. She was a midling soap. opera star in her day, which is, you.

know, she didn't make it, so she wanted. the daughter to make it. So she. vicariously living. >> Yeah. Recover her her lost glory. [clears throat]. >> Wow. >> So here she shares her first public. comments to NBC after Hayden died. >> And this is what she said. I mean, it's. >> it's really crazy. This is as as Debbie. Murph put it to me, this sounds like. something my doorman would say about me. if I died. like this is how detached it. was. >> Uh I think Hayden was an amazingly. talented person in so many departments. and I think young people who grow up in.

the entertainment industry, it is a. struggle and it is a very challenging. industry and it's not unusual for them. to sadly find the wrong path. What. >> is she on drugs like herself? My god. >> Right. That's what she said. Uh she said. that her last conversation was in. October, that they'd been texting a bit. but not in some time. No contact was a. choice I made for very specific reasons. and you know certainly not for lack of.

care, concern or love. Uh she said she. wished things could have been different. I think it becomes very difficult to be. true to yourself. I think Hayden sadly. lost her way and I wish it were. different. Um yeah, like that you hadn't. been her mother. Go. She did go on to. say um she ripped on Brian. That was her. other contribution. I think we can all. agree on that. He was a terrible person. to have in Hayden's life. She this this. person in her life that we've been. trying to get rid of for quite some time. was with her at her death. That was.

Brian Hickerson. There's a lot of. history in the past that Brian has. enabled Hayden many times. And this is. why her father and I had been concerned. for a long time about him. By the way, there's another report out today about. this is a witness who uh lived next to. Hayden who said that she saw. >> the stretcher taking Hayden out. This is. I think back a couple years ago. Not not. that long ago, maybe like 2025. >> She said she was clearly terrified. You. could see the look in her eye. She was.

clearly battered. You could see I guess. she had some bruising or something. She. identified her as being battered. And. she said she could see she was clearly. scared. And it's not like she slipped. off a ladder and like bumped her head. and they would take her. There was there. were real issues. >> And this is this is during the time. where that restraining order would have. been in place. So she would they were. both obviously willingly violating it. But can I just tell you guys one other. thing? So Yashar Ali, who's a great. reporter, he went back and found the. statement that that um the mother made.

after her memoir hit in May. And it's. even worse than the one I just read. She says there's a personality style. which manifests as a need for control, entitlement, and a lack of empathy. She's not speaking of herself. She's. speaking of her daughter. >> I'm aware. >> The major fear is that someone will see. through the mask they present to the. world and discover who they truthfully. are. This condition cannot be fixed. regardless of continual efforts to.

support or comfort. No matter the. encouragement given, it will never be. enough. And listen to this. After 20 years of trauma, I took the. advice of professionals and chose the no. contract contact route. This is the. mother saying she's been traumatized by. 20 years from Hayden. So what? From 16. to 36 from all the time she was a huge. star. The child traumatized the mother. >> Oh my gosh. >> She says, "As many parents of. entertainment children know, we are all. too familiar with the painful.

observation of watching the. self-destructive paths they sometimes. choose. No parent hopes for this. scenario." Totally no responsibility for. the fact that she put her in the. industry, but she was a baby doing. commercials. One more. Sadly, this is. not Sadly, this is out of our control. You cannot save someone who does not. want to be saved. Radical acceptance is. the most difficult challenge any parent. must embrace. Unfortunately, I've spent. a great deal of such. Um, I've seen a. great deal of such in my life. experience. I guess she's referring to.

her 20 years of trauma caused by her. rich famous daughter who only wanted a. mother, Ashley, and couldn't get one. >> Didn't want her mother to run her career. and do that. Just wanted her to be a. mother. I mean, she's got to feel some. responsibility. But it doesn't sound. like she's taking any responsibility at. this point. >> Wow. What a disgusting pick. I'm. >> This is all she said. We're ripping. for a couple cigarettes while we were. present. with us. This This is actual. abusiveness. Like this is actual abuse. This kind of emotional abuse of women.

>> How about I'm distraught about the loss. of my daughter. It's against the natural. order to lose your child. But I unless I. missed it, I didn't hear any of that in. [laughter] there. >> Megan, this was a prepared statement. This wasn't spontaneous. She had time to. think about this and issue this. >> Yeah, she she gave an interview to NBC. and just went off on on how tough it. was, I guess, for her when when Hayden. was still alive and how, you know, just. arms length like gez, it's a tough. business. She wasn't able to get it at. back under control. >> It's like, no wonder this girl turned to.

drugs. You know, that's my takeaway. All. right, let's keep going. >> Maybe she had bad knees. >> You know, I could have helped her out. She should have called me. >> That's what she needed. >> One time was enough for that procedure, though. I mean, like, one time was. plenty. It hurt. Um, okay. Lindsay. Clancy Arthur and I was just talking. about this during the break. >> Everyone knows you're you have to be. nuts. You have to be nuts on some level. to kill your children. Like, that's. that's basically what the defense has. going for it, right? Isn't that the. number one thing the defense has going. for it? Which is like she loved her. kids. >> Only a crazy person would kill their.

children, right? So, how does the. prosecution overcome that? Let me start. with you, Dave, on that question. >> I think the prosecution overcharged. I. think they should have focused on a. lesser charge, involuntary manslaughter. If you overcharge, you lose credibility. with the jury. It's going to be so hard. to convict her of firstdegree. premeditated murder. uh especially. because they have medical experts that. say yes, sometimes she was lucid and you. can be lucid even when you're under the. throws of psychosis. But I would focus.

on some of the things that the. prosecution has pointed out. I would. lean into that. So, for example, if. Lindsay Clancy was completely consumed. by this postpartum psychosis, then why. was her first question when she woke up. in the hospital about getting herself. legal representation, not about her. kids, >> right? Not about anguish over their. deaths. And so, I would try to poke. holes in the defenses narrative that. here's this poor woman who couldn't. control herself. She was under this all.

these drugs and psychosis. and you say, "Well, after the fog cleared, she didn't. ask about her kids. She didn't seem too. caught up about it except when she's in. front of you, the jurors, here at. trial." So, I would try to do that, but. in the end, I think the prosecution has. a tough case. I think they overcharge. I'd be surprised if they can get a. conviction even of a lesser charge. >> The other thing is, Ashley, you know, there's she sent the husband out. She. sent him to the CVS and to the. restaurant to pick up um food for the.

family. It seemed calculated. She had. Googled how long the trip would take. She seemed like a methodical killer. getting rid of the one eyewitness who. would stop it. Yeah. And that, you know, she was determined to sort of lay the. plan out. And then there was testimony. this week from somebody uh in the. facility with her where she's being held. saying the the one date like the dates. that she never acknowledges are her. children's birthdays. She seemed. absolutely fine on each one of their. what would have been their birthdays. uh. having really good strong days where she.

was kind of enjoying herself and um like. doesn't seem to miss them. >> But one of the things that I think is. important to remember is that she's. medicated. So like Dave's talking about. what she says when she first wakes up, she's intubated at that point. She is. heavily sedated at that point. And now. when she is in this this psychiatric. facility, she is on a lot of medication. I guarantee you she is on a lot of. medication and it dulls her. And so. anytime you know her reaction to maybe. her children's birthday, I'm sure that. they're watching her very closely on. those days. I'm sure they're trying to.

keep her occupied because they know her. suicide risk is super high. They've also. got her on some heavy medication. >> Stand by. Hold the rest of that thought. I'm going to hold you guys over because. there's a lot more to discuss in this. case, including why they're ending early. and why the jurors were called up one by. one this morning. Stand by. You don't. wait until your house is on fire to. install a smoke detector. And you don't. wait until the wind and rain hammer your. windows and the power goes out to. prepare for a hurricane. You don't reach. for your seat belt after the impact. because after the crash, the hurricane,

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There is no obligation and there is no. cost, just straightforward information. on how you can diversify your savings, even an IRA or a 401k in whole or in. part with gold. Birch gold, a great. option to consider. Text MK to the. number 989898 to learn more. >> Um, were you aware that on May 26th, 2023 that um, the defendant was observed. by staff in a note stating that she was.

visible along the unit hallway. self-propelling her wheelchair, that she. had a visit with her mother. They ate. and played games during the visit. Are. you aware of that? That would have been. uh approximately 4 months after the. incident and uh on the date of Ken's. first birthday, >> right? >> Yes. How about on January 24th 202 24. where she's observed in a note from. Tukesbury State Hospital patient was. visible in the millu engageable with. both staff and select peers that she was.

pleasant during interactions. self-propelling in wheelchair in the. halls spending much of the morning and. early afternoon in her room and hall on. her electronics. Um do you recall. reading that record? >> Not specifically. And January 24th, 2024. would have been the year anniversary of. the incident. Correct. >> Yes. >> This is the prosecutor trying to. establish that Lindsay Clansy's handling. the anniversaries of her children's well. birthdays. You know, their birthday in.

heaven um. just fine without much emotionality. Uh. welcome back to the MK show. Arthur Adal. is here, Dave Aronberg as well, and. Ashley Merchant all back with me. Um, so. let's talk a bit about what's happening. inside that courtroom as they're, you. know, trying to make their case and then. we'll get into what happened with the. jurors today. They had Lindsay's mom. take the stand and her name is Paula. Musgrove. Here's a bit of what she said. in SAT. Why don't we just play them back.

toback 28 and 29? Do you recall the end of January that. she made a statement to you about the. medication in her opinion, what it was. doing to her mind? >> Yes. >> What did she say? >> She said that she couldn't remember. anything. The medication was pretty much. just destroying her mind and it wasn't. her. She said, "This isn't me. I I just. want to feel better and enjoy my kids. again." text message that you're. referring to um would that be on.

October 20th of 2022? >> Yes. >> And do you have that on your phone right. now? >> I do. >> Can you just pull that up for us? >> I can. Just give me a moment. >> Would you read that for the jury? >> Mom, will you please come up and stay. with me for a bit? I'm really sick. Something is wrong. I had horrible. insomnia all night and I just don't know. how I'm going to get through the day. I.

started taking the medicine my doctor. prescribed for anxiety and I think it's. made things worse. It's just really. scary and I don't want to be alone. So Ashley, this is the defense trying to. paint a picture of a woman who's. deteriorating on medicine that is not. being well managed by her physicians and. recognizing that she's changing in a way. that's very disturbing to her and the.

mother backing her up on it. There was. also testimony that the mother had. texted Lindsay after the last visit, "So. great to see you doing better." Which. was a day before the children were. killed. And the mother kind of tried to. disown it, being like, "Oh, I was just. trying to be encouraging. I didn't. actually see her better.". >> Yeah. >> But I mean, try to explain for us what. they're really arguing over because. there's no doubt that Lindsay Clancy. killed the children, >> right? >> There's no doubt she strangled them one. by one with an exercise cord. Not the.

not the bands. They've been referring to. them as like the bands. No, the cords. Like a bungee looking cord. Um, which is. just brutal. in the basement and then. she jumped out the window. The the only. real debate is whether she did it. because she had postpartum psychosis or. she was just regular nuts. Right. Like. >> to a certain. >> sense anybody's nuts who kills their. children. >> Right. Exactly. Just, you know, Well, the prosecution has charged it though as. first-degree murder. So, they're saying. that she did this on purpose, that she.

had a plan. She wanted her kids dead. So, I think what the defense is doing is. they're building really a timeline. And. I expect in closing arguments, we'll see. this timeline where Lindsay was reaching. out for help repeatedly. They're. changing medications. And I think one. thing that might resonate with the jury. are these medications. I mean, they're. medications that are meant to alter your. brain. That's what they do. And they. were prescribing these. She was going on. them. She was going off of them. They. were doubling dosage. They were. switching dosages. Um, some of those. actually are anti-depressants that could. drive you into mania. We had a guest on.

um our on our show MK True Crime earlier. this week who treats actual postpartum. moms regularly and was talking to us. about that and talking about how you. don't act a certain way all the time. It. fluctuates and was talking about how, you know, you could be in psychosis for. one minute and then you seem normal and. fine the next minute and how this is. really something that fluctuates. regularly. So I think at the end I think. the defense will tie all of this up in a. bow for us. They're just laying the. little pieces. They're putting all the. little bricks out and then they're going. to build this house in closing where.

they say, "Look, you know, she's. repeatedly reaching out." And, you know, I think having her reach out to her mom, that's something that's reasonable. That's something that she would be. honest with her mom. You know, I need. help. And I think that really helps the. defense because it shows that she really. did need help and she really was. suffering. >> There's the cross-examination, however, uh, of the mother, Paula Musgrove, and. here's a bit of it. Saw 31. And when she. made the statement that she had thoughts. of harming the children, did either you.

or Patrick ask her what she meant by. that? >> I believe I remember Pat asking her if. she felt like she couldn't be alone with. the children and she said no. >> And after she made those statements, did. uh did you have any thoughts about. committing her? >> No. Did you have any thoughts about having. her come stay with you in Connecticut. away from the children? >> No. >> Were you concerned for the children's. safety at that point in time?

>> No, because I was there. >> Sorry, I should have played the came. before that, which is where she. testified that Lindsay did say she had. thoughts of harming the children. And. the cross-examination was basically did. she say she didn't think she she could. be alone with them? and the mother. saying no. I mean, it does make you. wonder like as a parent, if your spouse. says, "I'm having thoughts of hurting my. children." I don't really give a. when the answer is. Can do you think you.

can be alone with that? >> I know. Game over. But me, you just. asked Ashley a question like, "What's. this trial really about?" It what it's. really about so everyone understands is. housing. Where is she going to spend the. next three or four decades? >> We know she's not it's not going to be. walking around society. So, the. prosecutor wants her to be in a prison. and the defense wants her to be in a. mental hospital. And I don't know the. state of mental hospitals in. Massachusetts, but where I am, they're. it's not like the hospital where you've. given birth. It's it's not a pleasant. place to be. And I know in New York,

because I've been in this position, people who get convicted of murder. actually wind up being out in society. sooner than people who are committed. because they committed murder by reason. of they're found not guilty by reason of. mental disease or defect. Because if you. shoot someone because he's in a gang and. you're dealing drugs, by the time you're. 30 years later, they think that that's. over. But when you're nuts and you did. something, I don't mean to say nuts, but. you know what I mean.

The doctors don't know you. Can you come. out in society? Can you not come out in. society? You did this without rational. thought. The gang member that kills the. gang member. There's a lot of rational. There's street cred. There's money. There's pressure from gangs. But you do. something like this. They don't know if. you're going to do it again in some form. or fashion. So this trial is just about. where is she going to be housed. warehoused for the next 30 or 40 years. until she dies. >> I mean, I don't know. Davis, so the. people who are very angry at her for. these murders, you know, for these.

killings, >> which one should they be rooting for? Because what if is like involuntary. manslaughter included as a lesser. charge? Because if she gets that, that's. that's a quick turnaround. She should. she'd be in and out. >> in a relatively small amount of years. versus if she got sentenced under the, you know, to the to a mental health. facility where she might have to stay. longer. >> without any oversight, too. Megan, I. mean, if she gets out quickly, there's. no lengthy probation. If she's in a. mental institution, if she's released.

from that, she's going to go to sort of. a step down program. She'll go to a less. restrictive alternative, but she'll. still have to check in. So, she'll still. have to be medicated. She'll have to. maybe take long acting injectables, maybe make sure that, you know, she can. prove she's going to therapy, things. like that. There's going to be some. oversight where if she got convicted of. something lesser and, you know, essentially got time served, there's no. oversight. Nothing. >> Is it a lesser? Do we know whether there. are lesser included charges that the. juryy's going to be charged with? >> We don't usually know until the very. end, but most likely they will ask for. it. So, what the what the law says is if.

there is any evidence to support that, the judge has to give those charges. So, typically the defense would ask for them. at the end. It's a strategy call though. and we may see a fight over that. You. know, Kevin Readington may not want. that. You may not want to give them that. option. >> The defense the defense will want all or. nothing. The prosecution should hope. they can get the lesser includins in. there. If they get involuntary. manslaughter, you can get her up to 20. years in prison. But keep in mind, she's. also sentenced to life with paralysis. because of what she did and threw. herself out the window. She's in that. wheelchair for life. So, that's.

something she's going to have to deal. with. And if she gets sent to a mental. hospital, she could be released early. on. I mean, especially if she shows. extended periods of being lucid like she. did beforehand. She was very calculated. in her planning. So perhaps if she but. is seen as lucid again after she's uh. acquitted by reasons of insanity, she. could get out of that mental institution. early. So it's a it's it's a tough call. Arthur's right. She's not going free no. matter what. It's a question of whether. she is in a prison or a mental. institution, but she'll be in that.

wheelchair for life. >> I mean, who I feel no sympathy for her. there. Like you you killed your kids and. you jumped out a window. Okay, that's. you know you know what that's that's why. you're going to be in a wheelchair. Oh. wow. >> And David, I don't think there I don't. think any doctors doctors would have to. I think recommend for her to be released. and then the judge would have to agree. with them that she should be released if. she's in a mental institution. >> I don't see especially a case of this. notoriety three deaths and there are. children. I don't see any doctors. signing anytime soon that that she's. going anywhere.

>> But I do have a question about like. what is that? What is he arguing Dave? What is what is she? The prosecutors are. she is she is her cuz like this isn't a. case where Lindsay Clancy was having an. affair and the guy didn't want children. You know, we saw that, right? We've seen. that before. Um so she wanted to get rid. of them and she wanted a new life. Like. >> she threw herself out the window. Like. she this woman clearly in my view. clearly wanted to die. She wasn't well. There's tons of documentation that she.

was losing it mentally. She did try to. seek help repeatedly. made these doctors. seemed terrible um not managing her. medication once they gave it to her. So, like I'm not excusing anything. I I. think she should probably be convicted. I'm not totally convinced she heard the. voices at all. But my point is simply. like what's the prosecution's theory. that like she is nuts. She's just not. legally nuts. Or is it like no, she's a. cold, calculating who decided to. take out those kids and then this was a. fake suicide attempt when she jumped out.

the window? >> That's it. No, it's the latter. And. that's the problem because she looks at. least to some sympathetic there in front. of her in front of the jury in the. wheelchair. She was bawling when she. heard about the kids at the trial. And. there's no evidence. >> The autopsy report. >> The autopsy report. Also, this is not. like Casey Anthony where Casey Anthony. wanted to go on the party scene and get. rid of her daughter or like Susan Smith. who was buried with these three like. these three kids like loaded down with.

them and wanted to go and sleep around. So, this is different. There's really no. evidence that she was out there on. Tinder trying to have a new life. And. that's why it's going to be hard for a. jury to say what is the motivation other. than that she was crazy that she was. overmedicated. And the fact that she. threw herself out the window and. according to her own experts, landed on. her head, her neck in an attempt to kill. herself, >> that that will, I think, move enough. jurors that it's going to be nearly. impossible to get a conviction. unanimously beyond a reasonable doubt.

>> Is there a chance then? I mean, like, it's just now dawning on me that. is there is there a possibility of not. guilty? >> No. >> Okay. It's either. >> No, they're admitting that she did it. >> That's why you're Yeah, that's why. you're saying it's just an argument over. where she's going to go. >> That's where it is. And and what Dave. just said though, it is hard to say that she had evil in. her heart. Like unlike Andre Yates, right, she drowned the kids, but then. like she was that she didn't wind up in. a wheelchair. I mean, Maggie, you're. diving out of diving out. She didn't.

jump out the window. She dove out the. window and landed on her head. >> Seems pretty clear she wanted to die. Yeah, I accept. I have been I'm. convinced that she wanted to die. Um I. don't it doesn't. >> with the voices or without the. but I'm not convinced on the on the. psychosis. I'm really not like so if I. if I'm a juror, Ashley, and I have to. find psychosis, you know, that she's. hearing the voices, which she's there's. been some testimony. Um I'm not I'm not. going to find that. But is she nuts? Like did she do this because she just.

decide because it seems like the. prosecutor is trying to say she she that. we've talked about that Facebook post. that Lindseay Clancy made about her son. about how he's just so difficult and. like all day long and he won't agree. with anything and she sounds extremely. frustrated. It seems like the prosecutor. is trying to say she's a nasty. short-tempered mother who just hated the. burden of motherhood, >> but there's no evidence of that. >> I I Well, I mean, you know, some. bitching about She does talk about her.

children in a way that's very. off-putting. I mean, I I can't imagine. publicly complaining about my child the. way she did about him. But, >> right, >> is that really where the prosecution's. going? They're not going with No, no, no, no, no. there has to be like the. defense now has the burden of proving. psychosis and trust members of the jury. they won't be able to do that. >> right and that's not what they're doing. they just don't really have any evidence. that she wanted her kids dead I think. that is the big gaping hole in this case. um everybody who's testified said I mean.

she was a labor and delivery nurse she. wanted a large family she loved her. family loved her kids um and that she. was suffering luckily they don't have to. prove that she actually heard a voice so. you know that's one of the things that. that they keep talking about and it. definitely yes it definitely The defense. has a burden here, too, since they've. asserted not not guilty by reason of. mental detail. >> Exactly. As long as they think that her. mental essentially her mental illness is. what caused this. I mean, essentially, that's what they've got to argue and. that's what they've got to prove. As. long as they do that, then she could get. the not guilty by reason of insanity. I.

also think it's important because one of. the experts who has actually witnessed. her, her um psychologist or actually it. was her psychiatrist who started. treating her right after this has been. seeing her, has seen her over 50 times. in the mental institute. He testified. that she is actually so suicidal still. to this day that she requires one-on-one. supervision. So, she can't really be out. of anyone's sight because she is that. close to being suicidal at any given. time. So, I think that you know they've. >> unless it comes to the kids' birthdays, in which case she's like, I'm good. >> She's playing she's playing back and you.

know what she brought up Ashley that I. forgot. She's a labor delivery nurse. >> Hold that thought because I got to let. Dave go. I know he's got another. obligation. Thank you so much for being. here, Dave. Great to see you as always. to be continued. Yeah, Ashley and. Arthur, continue. >> a labor and delivery nurse. >> The mo the mother was. >> I mean that's someone who deals with. kids all the time baby. I mean there's. an eight-month-old that died here. I. mean that, you know, that just adds an. aggravating factor of of. >> I mean, again, me, you started off the. segment saying, "You got to be crazy to. do this." And,

>> you know, I I I I if I was the if I was. the prosecutor, the elected DA or. whatever they call him there, state. attorney, I would have worked this out. where I would have just said, "Look, just agree that. >> Clancy was a nurse, but it was her. mother who was a labor and delivery. nurse for for like 38 years. I don't. know what kind of a nurse Lindsay was, but they there was testimony. She was. like super fidious. She was like down to. the the minute on the kids' schedules, including the moment they had to be. asleep. I mean, I not everybody's cut. out for motherhood. I got to say.

[laughter] it truly like you can't be. this uptight and have kids. You. just. >> the cursing. You're supposed to curse. when you're [laughter]. >> She did that weird sleep training thing. I remember that. I was like, I thought. that I didn't even know that was a thing. still. Some weird sleep training thing. where she was so rigid with the sleep. and this third kid just didn't want to. do the sleep training. But that yeah, that was odd. But it seems like she. comes from a long line of labor and. delivery nurses, too, because her, you. know, her mother-in-law, her mother, she. was they to me, and I think a lot of. jurors will will agree with this. >> That means she likes babies. You know,

you're not going there delivering babies. if you don't like them. And so, when. she's not in this psychosis, she likes. babies. There's been a lot of evidence. she wanted a lot of kids and that she. was otherwise a good mom. I think that. strengthens this temporary insanity. almost, you know, and I hate to use the. word temporary because she obviously had. a long line of mental illness, but it. seems like it just temporarily got out. of control at this point. I mean, obviously way out of control. >> It does seem like I don't agree with. Lisa Renawives.

that Patrick is the real killer, the. husband. Not even not even Lindsay's. arguing that. >> Um, but the more I learn, the more. disgusted I am with him. I got to be. honest. It's like, so you knew your wife. was in crisis. You saw her deteriorate. You knew that she was having thoughts of. hurting the children. You were told by. the doctor she was bipolar and you said, "My wife is not bipolar." You are. working from home because you're worried. about her. And yet in the midst of all.

that, you do allow her to be alone with. the children ever. >> Yeah. >> And the mother too kind of failed her. No, no disrespect to that mom, but like. the mom was there. She said, "No, I. wasn't worried that she was going to. hurt the children cuz we were there.". But then you left. Why was she ever. allowed to be alone with these children? She was failed by these doctors, the. hospitals, her husband, her family. >> But it's to some degree, Mag, it's like. inconceivable. Like, is your wife really. going to kill your three kids? Even her. mother-in-law, and one of the women in. my office said, "Mother-in-laws hate.

their daughter-in-laws." But even the. mother-in-law said, "When I saw her, she. was a very good mom. She was a very good. mom." You go into it thinking she would. never except when the spouse comes to. you and says, "I'm thinking about. hurting the children." In which case, you're like, >> I'm hearing voices. >> Yeah. This a five alarm fire now. You. will not be being you will not have any. alone time with them. >> You're you're right. Like. God knows what he's doing in his mind. right now. >> No, but every every parent knows you.

love your spouse. you adore your spouse. and and you have to be a united front. when it comes to discipline with the. children and all that stuff, but like if. there's any possibility your spouse is. going to hurt your child. >> Yeah. No, >> you're on the side of the child. Like. the divisions don't that's not a. situation where you back the spouse. Um. >> there was a testimony. It was kind of. interesting how they got it in about her. hearing the voice. And you mentioned. that that psychiatrist, the guy who. treated her, Dr. Paul Zeisle, he was on. the stand and here's 36. Listen to this.

one. >> She wanted to know how he was doing. She. wanted to know if she could call him and. find out. >> her husband. >> where things are with her and with him. and how he was fairing and to just speak. with him. >> She told Patrick that she loved him very. much. She was unable to express a lot of. emotion, but she expressed. love for him. And she had said that she.

heard a male voice. ordering her. telling her. that she didn't have any choice. [snorts]. But she had to kill. her children. and then kill herself. >> Why did you let her call her husband on. your cell phone? I let her call a husband out of. [clears throat] human compassion.

>> I Isn't that Why wasn't there a hearsay. objection there? That's a lot of That's. quite a backended way to get in that she. heard voices. >> Yeah. Well, the prosecutor would be the. one, right, objecting to that to that. coming out. >> Why wouldn't the prosecutor object to. that? >> Well, sometimes they don't always know. >> Yeah. >> They not always know what they're doing. They make mistakes. We That's why they. call it the practice of law. We're still. practicing. We never get it right. >> I don't know. I don't think that was I.

would have been on my feet saying that's. not coming in. Not Not this way. >> I think that's the only way it came in. >> Here's the cross- examination um of the. same guy. S 37. >> How many times has she told you since. the incident that she's heard a voice? Currently, >> she has not heard voices since the event. took place in uh 2023. >> And you've now testified that over the.

course of a period of time that. she did hear voices, right? >> Yes. >> And is that based on one of these 35. hours worth of conversations you had. with her? How do you know that? >> Well, there were collateral contacts, spoke to other people. I spoke to other. people who. I asked the nature of their interactions. with Miss Clansancy and.

it was not a fishing expedition. >> I mean, this like this is the most. backended way of getting in that she. allegedly heard voices. That's why I say. I'm not convinced. >> This is the prosecutor bringing in. >> Yeah, I know. which is also it's just. ridiculous. Ashley, >> well, I think the prosecutor probably. wanted it to come in. So that's why she. didn't object during, you know, when the. defense asked it. I think it this. prosecution, we can only imagine cuz, you know, they're doing something weird. that none of us really understand, but. it seems like they're trying to argue,

well, she only said she heard voices. once, so you know, and she hasn't heard. them since. They keep hanging on this, she hasn't heard them since. She hasn't. been psychotic since. And all I keep. thinking is that's cuz she's treated. now. She's literally institutionalized. and treated. Of course, she's okay now. She was on medications before, though. I. mean, like, have they found some new. cocktail that's stopping the voices that. she wasn't. >> on? No, but that but me, apparently, that's a real thing like these cocktails. and andthium. I had a friend who was.

going through bad depression and it took. him like two years and now he's like, "Mr. Happy golucky." But it but he said, >> "Nitrous oxide.". >> He go, "No, no, no, not that happy." But. he said, he goes, "It took a while for. them to medicate me and whatever. I I. don't know enough about that to talk. about it." But it took a while for him. and and Ashley's right. Like, in other. words, she's now, I'm sure, on a. different regimen. She's insanely. supervised, right? There's people with. her all the time. And. >> yeah, >> I mean, the voices to me are irrelevant. >> The only thing that we haven't. discussed, Ashley, is um Yeah, she's. sleeping. Is this is Massachusetts.

It's not Texas, you know. >> Oh, no. And and you can see that, Megan, in their laws. So their law is so. different than most states laws just on. this not guilty by reason of insanity. As soon as the defense raises it, the. state has a burden to disprove it beyond. a reasonable doubt. And that is rare. Most states do not have that. Most. states the burden is on the defense. So. this is a really high standard and we. have what will probably be a very. liberal jury. >> hearing with a very liberal law. So, you.

know, I think that's definitely going to. work in the defense's favor. You're going to have a higher number of. bleeding hearts on a Massachusetts jury. >> You would. Yeah. One would think. >> And the law, like the law in California, we talked about this when Nick Reiner. got charged. The law in California on. self-defense is tough. It's very tough. And the practice, like the the way the. trials have panned out, Matt Murphy's. been talking about this cuz he was a. lifeline prosecutor out there. Um, listen to this one. Uh there is this case that's often cited.

in California law schools as an example. that severe mental illness does not. equal legal insanity. It's the case of. Richard Chase, the vampire of. Sacramento, 1979, killed six people. between December 77 and January 78. All. of his victims were chosen at random. One was a pregnant woman. He drank her. blood after he mixed it with yogurt. Oh. my god. Primary motive behind these. murders was the mutilation of the bodies. and the consumption of their blood and.

organs. Sorry, viewer warning. Chase had. a delusional belief that he needed to. consume the blood of other beings to. replenish his own supply. He had been. treated in psychiatric hospitals before. the murders. One time he was taken to. the ER of American River Hospital having. injected rabbits blood into his veins. He was diagnosed as a paranoid. schizophrenic. He was on psychotropic. drugs. He tried to use an insanity. defense. The defense argued that he was. a paranoid schizophrenic who believed. his blood was turning to powder. The. jury deliberated for 65 minutes before.

ruling that he was sane. Under. California law at the time of the. commission of the murder, sentenced to. death, later died in prison. California. is hardcore. If that doesn't get you the. insanity defense, I don't know what. would. But it does come down to how the. judge is going to charge the jury on. what's what equals insanity or mental. defect. I mean, that's the entire real. ball game, is it not? >> Right. It It definitely is. And. Massachusetts has very good jury charges. for the defense on that. So, I think. that is definitely going to work in. their favor.

>> Wow. So, I don't know. Maybe we should. be rooting for it since we all agree. that if the jury could consider a lesser. included, she's probably going to be out. in no time at all. >> Well, I don't know. I don't know about. no time at all, but I definitely less. time than if she goes to a hospital. As. they said, a case of this magnitude, three deaths. Then you add the the. aggravating factor there three children. Then you add they're her children. Then. you add that this is a huge media case. >> You know there she's not going anywhere. anytime. >> And also I mean if she's that suicidal,

she's not going to get out because the. standard is a danger to herself or. others. So you know I'm with Arthur. I. think she'll serve a lot of time in a. state mental institution. We have to spend one minute discussing. the insane weird leftist mothers all. over Tik Tok who are posting these. videos. There's something wrong with our. society. Something deeply wrong. >> What about the Luigi Luigi fans? >> Yes. So there's like category this whole. trend of like these young moms who are. like, "Oh, she speaks for all of us.

Being a mother's so hard. Will you stop? Stop it." Half the battle is mind over. matter. It you know it can be. challenging. Sometimes babies cry a lot. You know what? But there are ways of. managing it and you don't have to be a. nutcase about it. It's a baby, you know, like there there are ways. Um, ideally. you get some help. If you can't afford. some help, you got to lean on a family. member. Ideally, if your family member. is not there, you lean on your spouse or. you just remove yourself from the room. But you don't have to be doing weird Tik. Toks of yourself like be behaving very.

strangely with your baby. Here's now. they're pretending. That's what's so. weird about these videos. And this is a. trend. Here's one of a mom pretending to. be overwhelmed with her newborn while. she plays the audio of Kevin Readington. That's Lindsay's defense lawyer, reading. her diary entries. Watch this. 41. >> I'm desperate to get a mental break from. taking care of everyone. My mind is. trying to make something physically. wrong with me. My mind never shuts off. It's constantly thinking of the next. thing someone needs. I can't shut it. off. I desperately want to go back to.

work, but now I don't know how I'm going. to function and it worries me. Wrote. that, right? >> Correct. >> There were two consecutive or two pages. that were blank that she didn't even. write on. And then on the third entry, affirmations, she wrote affirmations on. November 22nd of 2022. I am calm. I will remain calm today. There is nothing that needs to be on my. mind. The weight is lifted from my mind. I will sleep tonight.

>> Okay, for the listening audience, this. there's a woman in her maybe late 20s. holding an adorable baby who seems. >> adorable baby months old at most. yawning. Why isn't he crying? Yeah, it. looks like a happy peaceful baby. [snorts]. >> She's she's rocking him back and forth. He's not crying at all. She's doing fake. sad faces. There's not a tear in her. eyes and she just keeps throwing her. head back and like trying to look. distraught with like like so she her. baby looks perfect and easy and um she.

wants in on the what. >> and look I don't I don't I really don't. mean. >> no no things but we all know that. infants especially and those it could. get overwhelming but now in the palm of. our hands with this little phone thing. we call there's so much relief there's. like the calm app that to calm the kid. to calm yourself there's so much stress. management. You know, I think about my. grandmother and my great-grandmother who. had 11 children, Megan. 11 children. Both sides of my family had 11.

>> Wow. >> Like, yeah. Both. Well, because they. would die. I mean, that's, you know, I'm. talking about in the early 1900s, like. the three, I think, on both sides died. >> So, like, you know, yes, it stinks. sometimes. It's overwhelming sometimes, but you know, there's a long there's a. lot of real estate between being. overwhelmed and mental illness to the. point where you're jumping out of window. and onto your head after you kill three. people. I mean, so. >> again, not everybody should be a mother. Like, if you can't handle stress in your. regular life, if you're full of anxiety. all the time, it might not be for you, >> right? And a lot more people should.

>> Where are the dads with this Tik Tok? Like, what's happening when the family. members are seeing these Tik Toks where. these people are talking about this? I. mean, are is someone showing up at their. door making sure that the kids are okay? >> We know they're probably faking it. >> So, well, these women are setting up. their eyelight, their little spotlight. on them, you know, make sure the natural. light hits me just right while I look. super sad with my baby. I swear I'm. super sad. That's where the fathers. don't care. They know it's attention. It's attention seeking. It's all it is. >> Who would put this on their on.

their Instagram? The stuff. Wait, I want. to show you something. When when my. oldest was born, I downloaded there was. like the iPhone came out in 2007. He was. born in 2008. I downloaded this app on. my phone and it is a miracle app. It's. got this rattle. >> and if you shake it like the thing. moves. I'm going to show it to you. And. I use it if there's like a crying baby. on an airplane. I always go over to try. to help the mom cuz this app is like a. miracle thing for babies. And it worked.

on all three of my kids so well. It. works on people's other you strangers, babies. And then they all say, of. course, what is the app? And. unfortunately, the app only says, Arthur, tell tell the audience what it's. labeled there. >> Hold on. >> Baby B A B [laughter] Y with an adorable. little picture of a baby. >> Baby with a with a picture of a little. baby. So, I'm like, I got nothing. I. don't know how to tell you how to find. this app, but I'm going to show you. here. Can you see it? Like, I can hear. it.

Yeah. If you shake it, little balls move. around. The little rattle balls. It. >> chills them out. >> They love it. Every baby on Earth loves. this bet. >> Now, maybe there's another app where you. can find this. >> We all had something like I had one kid. who liked to swing, one who liked that. little like vibrating chair. I mean, there are so many things that you can. get. >> But this is like a magic magic, I'm. telling you. >> And it's in the palm of your hand. It. travels. >> Don't know how to recreate. In any.

event, I I have no tolerance for these. actresses who, you know, it's either, you know what, get help. >> or keep it to yourself. Like, don't go. on the T, sorry, Tik Tok. >> or go on or or get, as I said, I'm being. sincere. There's so much relief on your. phone. There's so many ways to deal with. this. Now, with AI, okay, my baby's been. crying for 3 hours. What the hell do I. do? And it'll give you seven. suggestions. Put an ice cube in its hand. like something. >> One of them is not go on TikTok. I don't. think any of them are. Go on Tik Tok.

So, we What do we think? Final final. predictions on this case, how it's. likely to come down. Arthur, >> I I think the jury I don't think they'll. be able to unanimously find she. intentionally killed these kids. And I. mean, the the the. reasonable doubt fact is her diving out. a window. Yeah. >> I mean, that that harm to herself, it's. too difficult to say she's like just. this evil person. So, I think she'll be. in a mental institution. And and again, Ashley accurately points out if the. doctors think she's going to hurt. herself anywhere along the line, they. will not let her go. So, she'll be there.

and she's in this wheelchair and I don't. expect her to have a long life. expectancy. >> What about you? >> I'm with Arthur. I think that it's not. guilty by reason of insanity and I think. that we're going to hear from the jurors. that they don't like how the state. presented their case. I think they're. going to be very critical and I think. one of the things that they're going to. say was a big decision-making um factor. for them was the fact that she had no. motive. She didn't want her kids dead. And so without evidence that she. actually other than that one little. Facebook post that she actually and it. wasn't even that she wanted her kids. dead. It was that you know her kid was. crying and she was tired. I. >> think they're going to say there was no.

motive. >> Wasn't handling it well. >> Yeah, she she wasn't handling it well. Obviously. Uh great to see you actually. Thanks for being here. You as well, Arthur. So good to have you here. >> Got some great Italian bread from. Brooklyn downstairs for you when you're. ready. If you're allowed to eat. I mean. Doug ate. >> We're doing that now. >> Okay. I'm down. >> All right. Um we're going to stay on. this. By the way, there's speculation. that closing arguments could come as. soon as Monday. All this is broadcast. I. love these trials that actually allow. cameras in the courtroom. They're so. helpful and you get such a, you know, better accurate picture of what's going.

on inside the room than you can when. they don't allow it. So, thank you for. that, Massachusetts. And thanks to all. of you. Enjoy your weekend. We'll see. you next [music] time. Today's episode was brought to you by. Supershore.