Explosive Moments From Tyler Robinson Hearing, and Trump's FIFA Controversy, w/ MK True Crime & More

Hey everyone, I'm Megan Kelly. Welcome. to the Megan Kelly show. Hope you had a. wonderful July 4th. More on our. celebration in just a bit. Um, we have a. can't miss show today. We're going to be. reacting live to the preliminary hearing. of Tyler Robinson in Utah today. He is. the man charged in the assassination of. Charlie Kirk. Erica's there. Charlie's. parents are there, Robert and Katherine. And this is going to be a very emotional. week. I think you know quite clearly for.

Charlie's loved ones and possibly for. you and I think for me too. This is this. is going to be a rough one. A rough five. days as we hear great details about. how this went down, what happened to. Charlie and you know what happened at. Utah Valley University. last September. Uh this is not a small. hearing. As I said, it's five days.

expected to be. It's essentially a mini. trial with witnesses and. cross-examinations. Uh except instead of proving their case. beyond a reasonable doubt, prosecutors. must only establish probable cause. Probable cause that Tyler Robinson was. the shooter and murderer of Charlie. Kirk. As long as they do that, the case. will head to trial at a later date. Now, typically prosecutors can do this. They. always have to establish probable cause. against a defendant. you. Typically, you. can do it through a preliminary hearing. like this or you can get a grand jury. indictment. Though in Utah, they're the.

grand juries are far less utilized than. in most places. We did not know that, but that's why they're seeking the the. preliminary hearing because that's. that's their typical go-to out in Utah, we're told. So, that's why the. prosecutors are doing this. And they're. not they're not phoning anything in. quite clearly because 5 days for a. preliminary hearing is quite a bit. They. are calling witnesses. There's somebody. on the stand right now. We actually are. going to stream the whole thing live on.

our YouTube page, which we are right. now. During the course of the show, when. we're live doing, you know, the the show. on SiriusXM, as you guys, I think, know, we do our show live on SiriusXM channel. 111 between 12 and 2 Eastern time, Monday through Friday. And then later we. release the show as a YouTube program. and on podcast. So what we're going to. do while we're live on SiriusXM is. monitor the live hearing update live as. we go with anything important and um.

then go back to the constant live. stream. So, if you want to watch this. thing gavvel to gavvel, you can on um. youtube.com/megan Kelly. And then tune. in for full analysis with lawyers, prosecutors, defense attorneys, and. others as the week goes on. The. prosecutors in this case have already. announced that they intend to seek the. death penalty against Tyler Robinson. Um. it's just one of the many indi indishes. of the stakes of what we're watching out. there. We're well aware that there are.

some who don't believe Tyler Robinson. had anything to do with this or that he. was potentially manipulated by somebody. into doing this and there remain big. questions about whether. someone outside of Tyler Robinson, anyone knew in advance that he was going. to be committing this crime. Um, we're. going to cover every single angle of. this case for our audience. We're not. going to assume assume anything. We're. going to go into this with defense.

attorneys who will argue on Tyler's. behalf or from the defense perspective. with prosecutors who will argue from the. prosecutions. uh perspective and from those who think, you know, it's possible this guy had. absolutely nothing to do with it. Um, and we'll take a very fair look at this. case as we go on. I don't I just don't. care about any of the around. this. I I I care about Charlie, care. about his family, and I care about being. very factual in our coverage of what.

happens out there, both this week and. when, as I believe it will be held over. for trial, uh, we get to trial. So, that's my own commitment to you. Before. we get to all of that, however, we've. got to get into the biggest controversy. in the world right now, and it revolves. around the World Cup for soccer. The US. set to take on Belgium tonight in. Seattle in the round of 16. But as of. last Wednesday night, the US was going.

to be without arguably its best player. Okay, Faren Bologon. I don't know how to. pronounce the names and I don't really. know the soccer players. You guys know. that. I do know that there's a massive. controversy unfurling right now around. this guy said to be either our best or. one of our best players because he. received a red card in America's win in. the last game for the player you're. seeing on screen right now. Okay, you. see the American in the white outfit and. he stepped on the other sides on the on.

the other team's uh the players. leg, ankle, foot. Now, this is slow-mo, but apparently you're not supposed to. review whether there's been a foul based. on slow-mo. They don't do that. Um, that. you're supposed to leave that up to the. call on the field. Um, and many people. looked at this, especially on the. American side, and said a red card is. well beyond the pale on what we just saw. there. A and a red card means you're not.

only kicked out of the game you're. playing in, you also are barred from the. next. So with every single game, an. elimination game, that's obviously a. huge consequence for America. Uh and and. just I mean objective observers, the. game of soccer and said just you could. find dozens of them saying how did that. turn into a red card? The refs on the. field did not call it. They didn't think. it was a red card. They didn't think it. was a foul at all. At all. And it was.

the automatic replay like video. assistant that thought it might be a. penalty. And not only a penalty, it. turned into a red card. Okay, so the. Americans were crying foul saying this. is absurd. It wasn't a foul at all. And. it certainly wasn't a red card foul to. where we'd lose arguably our best player. for that game, which we did go on to win. and the next. It was such a big deal that America.

basically wound up playing its trump. card and it was a rather massive Trump. card. And now just how big a role the US. president had in getting that call. reversed. Not entirely, but basically. the red card's been suspended for a. year. Yeah, they say for up to one year. So, I I'm not exactly sure what that. means, but it it means this guy can play. in tonight's match, right? And that.

reversal by FIFA happened after Trump. called the head of the organization. All. right, watch this. >> He didn't do anything wrong. And he's. our best player or one of our best. players, a very play. And he gave him a. red card. I didn't know what that meant. I didn't think it meant much. Then I. started hearing that that means he can't. play in the next game. At least in the. next game. I said, "Boy, that's a big, you know, if it happened to another. player, it would have been unfair." But. when they take your best player or just.

about, they have some great players, but. and they say you can't play. That's very. unfair. That's, you know, it's one thing. to penalize somebody for the game, but. how do you penalize them for a game that. hasn't been played yet? It's very. unfair. You can't do that. So, uh, yes, I asked for a review by FIFA. >> He asked for a review. President Trump. put in a call. FIFA took another look. And now, Balagon is set to play tonight,

pending a lastm minute appeal by. Belgium, our opponents tonight, who are. losing their minds over this call. because they don't want to play us. Uh, joining me now to shed further light on. this is somebody who does know about. sports a lot [music] and it's our our. friend Sage Steel. She's the host of the. Sage Steel Show. Don't miss a moment. Subscribe to this. show on YouTube and follow me on Insta,

Facebook, and X. Buy gold and put some. silver in your pocket. I know what. you're thinking. Everything is so. expensive right now. How am I going to. buy gold? But listen, we got to talk. about this. One thing you can control. right now that does not cost you. anything out of pocket is the ability to. diversify your retirement savings. Birch. Gold Group can help you convert an old. 401k from a previous employer or an IRA. into a physical IRA in gold. By the way, you can do it in whole or in part if you.

just want to like hedge your bets and. say I'm going to take part of it, whatever. You pick the number and put. that in gold just so I'm not entirely in. the stock market. A lot of people would. say that's a very smart move and it's. something that can be a hedge for you. against inflation. And right now, Birch. Gold is going to give you a special. America 250 1oz silver round for every. $10,000 you purchase by July 10th. That's 4 days away. So, don't waste. time. Think about this. 10 years ago,

you can get an you could get an ounce of. gold for about 1,200 bucks. Today, it. would cost you around 4,500. So, look. look at that markup. That's in gold. You. missed that period if you weren't in. gold. But you don't have to miss the 10. years coming at us now. Right? Where is. this going to be in 10 years from right. now from today? You should be on the. positive end of that swing this time. around. And you can do so by texting MK. to the number 989898. That'll help you. take advantage of free America 250. silver with qualifying purchase before.

July 10th. Again, text MK to the number. 989898 today. Great to see you, Sage. How are you? Hi Megan, I'm great. [music] Happy fourth to you as well. And. oh my goodness, this is controversy like. who only we can create this controversy. in America, right? [laughter]. >> So what do do I basically have it right? The guy stepped on the opponent's foot. slash ankle and the other guy wasn't. hurt but could have been hurt. And then.

how does this automatic video review. thing work? Is there a person behind. that or is it just. >> tech? Oh gosh. First of all, you're. asking great questions and I will. preface my answers by saying I am not a. soccer expert. I am learning quickly, but my life at ESPN and 30 years of. sports is football, basketball, baseball, hockey. So, this has been new. and awesome for me to go to this level. and and really learn about it. Um, even. if it's not intentional, there can be red cards issued. And that.

is exactly what happened. the. controversy. I mean, we can sit there. all day long and review that play and. look at what happened and say red card, yellow card, what what should should. have happened. If if you ask the. analysts that were on the game and my. friend Alexi Lawless on Fox, um he was. flabbergasted. He thought it was wrong. All the analysts on Fox thought it was. wrong. I have a lot of friends in the. soccer world who said, "Listen, this. sucks for us, but it was the right. call." It is so subjective in soccer. You can liken it to how you felt maybe.

watching ice skating in the Olympics or. gymnastics as well where it is. subjective and it is up to the referee. the official on the field at that time. This is the first Olympics where I. Olympics World Cup where I believe this. V this video and review uh that is there. to help the referees is used not just. for goals but for plays away from the. goal as well. So, a play like this is. fair game to be reviewed and go yes, under slow-mo. It's different than past.

World Cups for sure. And it is. controversial, but they're doing it in. an effort to what? To make sure they get. the call right. So, that's where the. beef comes in because then people see it. and say, "Well, no way. This was a. yellow card." Definitely yellow card. But was it a red card? Again, it's. subjective. To me though, the biggest. issue is bigger than that. The biggest. issue is should the president of the. United States, the leader of the free. world be getting involved in this? And I.

think that that is also subjective and. up for debate. >> I am so glad that Balagan is playing. tonight. I'm so glad he is absolutely. our top scorer. We need him to to. continue to progress um in the World. Cup. If we win tonight, we we will have. never gotten this far in the World Cup. for the men. The women have done it, the. men have not. And there's going to be an. asterisk by this, isn't there? Like, if. if we win after Trump has made the phone. call, picked up the phone, obviously. pressured him, what's the rest of the.

world going to say? Yeah, you needed. your guy to get involved to make sure. your star player was there in order to. beat Belgium. So, I I just don't like. it. I can be really really excited that. he's playing and a little disappointed. that President Trump decided to get. involved. I mean, he's he's hedging the way he's. talking about it. I didn't think it was. a fowl. >> Um, I asked Giani Infantivo, however you say the last name, [laughter] the guy who runs. I asked him.

to review the call. I didn't tell him. what to do, says Trump. I can't tell him. what to do, and I don't and I I don't. believe he even made the decision. I. think it was a committee that made the. decision, but Trump says I didn't think. it was a foul, so I asked him to review. it. So, is this one of those like the. allegation I guess age is that it's one. of those like, you know, nice game you. have there. Shame if anything happened. to it kind of phone calls without.

explicitly saying you change the call or. something bad is going to happen between. us. >> Yeah. I mean, wouldn't he have loved to. been a fly in the wall for that. conversation along with many others that. are far more important than soccer, but. just for this? Because he even. acknowledged he's like, I don't know. I. didn't know what a red I didn't know it. was a big deal. And then somebody said, "No, this is a really big deal." He's. like, "Well, well, screw this. I got to. get involved. This is America. I mean, feel the momentum." And by the way, it. has been absolutely incredible. Um, not. just surrounding the American team, but.

all these other countries coming here. and seeing just how great our country. is. It has been awesome. And the timing. has been incredible with America 250, but when have we ever known President. Trump to be subtle and to just kind of. throw it out there and see how the. person on the receiving end takes it. No, he's always so direct and I cannot. imagine he was like, uh, I don't know, maybe you'd reconsider. What he did talk. about, as he said during his press. conference today, I've heard bits and. pieces, um, are you crazy? There's 50, 60 million people watching this every.

time. What are we doing? This is like. the Super Bowl. You'll get even higher. numbers. So, I just can't imagine being. subtle with it. And by the way, we all. agree. It's just, you know, I have, you've heard me talk about this before, Megan, with with sports and politics, and yes, it's more intertwined now than. ever before, right? But this is what we don't need. The. games are incredible, and even if this. had not happened and it hadn't been. reversed, it was still going to be. watched by basically the entire country.

I just think we have to be careful when. we're saying stay out of sports. You. know, you you know, you stick to what. you're doing here in politics and we're. going to do sports. When you when when. you intermingle it for your convenience, that's when I think that we're being a. little bit contradictory. Keep this in. mind, too. Belgium has issued an appeal. to this ruling. So, there's still a. chance before this game kicks off. tonight at 8:00 Eastern time um that. Belgium wins their appeal and our guy.

isn't able to play. I mean, there's. still so much going on. But if I'm them, like, put myself put ourselves in. Belgium shoes and you're saying, "Wait a. minute. This is the call that was made. in the field whether we agree or not.". And now because you don't like it, the. president is gonna come in and influence. FIFA. Like if I'm in there, >> maybe the Belgium president should call. >> He probably has. He probably has at this. point. I just I just think I what I.

don't want now. >> That's not going to hold as much sway. >> Probably not. What my team tells me is. um. >> that there's there was an independent. committee already reviewing the play and. the call. >> at the time President Trump called and. so he he did not influence the creation. of the of the committee or the review of. the call though he may have influenced. the ultimate decision the the outcome. But let me ask you this, Sage, because. Jim Gity over the National Review has a.

very interesting article up on their. homepage right now, and it it the reason. I went there is because I remember being. on the air in 2015 for Fox News covering. how corrupt FIFA is. Yes, we did a lot. of articles on it at the time. There. were all these indictments. FIFA, the. world body that oversees international. soccer, is extremely corrupt. This is. not a hands organization. So like it's. very hard to get that exercised about. them reversing this call or you know.

it's like basically for me I think all. right do we get mad at President Trump. for interfering or do we get mad at the. guy who oversees FIFA uh for allegedly. bowing to Trump's pressure? I mean I'm. an American so I'm in favor of this. whole thing. I have to say it sounds. like it was a call and we just. had our top guy say what the f but our. top guy is a lot more powerful than. most. So too bad Belgium work on. inventing more things and becoming more. powerful and then maybe your guy will. have some sway too.

>> This is why that's where I stand. [laughter] right like who cares. I'm. sorry you're so small and you have no. international power but that's not. really my problem. Um, anywh who, I just. feel like if if FIFA weren't corrupt and. corruptable, they would have said, "Thanks for the call, Mr. President. Goodbye." But this is what Gity writes. He writes as follows. Even the most. enthusiastic soccer fan will readily. agree that FIFA has a long and sorted. history of corruption. Numerous studies.

and books have been written about the. organization's graft and dishonesty. The. journal article, Whose Game: FIFA. Corruption and the Challenge of Global. Governance, published in European. Journal of International Law in 2019, gives one of the most detailed summaries. of the briberyfilled, sleazy selection. process of the 2018 and 2022 World Cups, as well as indictments of a total of 29. present and former FIFA officials for. corruption in the organization, including allegations of racketeering, wire fraud, and money laundering. In. 2014, the HBO comedian John Oliver did a.

whole segment on how he hated the. rampant corruption within the comically. grotesque organization, but yet couldn't. resist being a soccer fan. Anyway, he. goes on to give some more evidence about. how FIFA has an amazing ability to. negotiate very generous deals with host. countries. Um this year under a deal. negotiated with US Treasury Department, national associations can seek exemption. from US federal income tax on their 2026. FIFA World Cup tournament earnings by. applying for tax exempt status. All 48. participating teams received 2.5 million.

bucks in preparation money, 10 million. in qualification money, 16 million for. team delegation costs, increased team. ticketing allocations, and so on. Um. this has already been a very successful. year, he writes for US national men's. team and goes on from there. But he's. pointing out that. half half of the people who are. associated with FIFA appear to be bought. and paid for. And this is something. Trump seemed to be tapping into today. when he was talking about the ref who. made this call or I think it might have.

been the original ref. I'm not sure. But. here's what Trump said about the refing. this morning. Listen. >> And I'm a person that loves sports and. was a good athlete and I understand. sports really well. really well. And that wasn't a foul. That wasn't even. an infraction. That was two guys running. full speed that happened to crash into. each other. I You can't take your foot. and properly place it on somebody else's. foot when you're going, "No, these were. two great athletes that got tangled up.".

And. this referee who. is a little bit suspect if you check his. if you check his past. I don't want to. say that because I don't like to create. controversy [laughter] but but very. suspect. Uh if you'd like I'll provide. you with the past. He made a call that. nobody could believe. You know even. people on the other side they say oh we. got lucky. Wow, that's and it's very.

interesting. They say they don't show. them in slow motion and I never realized. that. I never heard of that before. >> Okay, >> so President Trump tapping into, you. know, existing suspicions about people. being corrupt within the FIFA. organization. >> Couple of things. He's wrong. It was a. foul. It did deserve to be cult. And he. acknowledged he doesn't know soccer. It's apparent there. And that's fine. We. can still love him for other things. And. and same as the audience knows same,

[laughter]. >> right? I mean, stop. That absolutely. deserved to be called. You could you can. we'll debate forever. Red card, yellow. card. That is a very very fair debate. Secondly, we all knew FIFA was corrupt. beforehand. Maybe President Trump. didn't. We all knew this. This is one of. the issues with the sport, frankly, on a. global level and even here in the United. States. I mean, people don't even love. sometimes the way the game is played and. the flopping, etc. I mean, MLS numbers. and the women's league numbers aren't. great. Like, this is a thing in soccer.

as it is in with the IOC, as it is with. controversies in the NFL and the NBA. I. mean, there are so many things that are. unfair about all of these sports and. soccer's at the top of that list. I. wonder if these conversations were had. by President Trump um leading up to the. World Cup, you know, because of these. things and these are legitimate issues. that the author of that article brought. up, but it but it is what it is. And so. then to only bring it up after, well,

this whole thing is unfair. I I I have a. problem with that. Again, I am so with. you. It is awesome that he's playing. He's a 25year-old kid. He's worked his. butt off. He turned 25 on the 3rd of. July. Like, how amazing is this for this. young man after being devastated, I'm. sure, not just that he couldn't play, that but that he let down his teammates. by not being able to be there. Um, I I. just think it's a very fine line. And. did you see the comment also? He's like, "By the way, good thing it's me. If this.

were Biden, he would have been asleep at. the wheel. It never would have. I made. the I made the call and now look what's. happening." I mean, it it it's. hysterical. And the biggest thing to me, it's going to have an asterisk by it. If. America wins this game, >> does anyone care? >> Well, I mean, I have to say, maybe it's. just me because I'm not But like, who. cares if we win? like this would be such. an accomplishment for for American men's. soccer. >> And it's not like we asked like we. cheated. It's like we just want our.

player to play that we're not asking for. like to make another team man down. It's. like we want our player to play. We the. the penalty was excessive and FIFA. agrees. But I see your point. I see your. point. Let me run this by you. Dave. Portoi who we both know Barcel sports. sports analyst as well. He said the. following and like I this has got some. appeal too. >> I know. I think I read this. Go ahead. Yeah. [laughter]. >> We have had what is it maybe 18 hours. now of crying like I have never seen in.

my lifetime. Maybe when the Patriots. were on their run and deflate gate and. things like this. Maybe Michigan Brandon. Walker. But this on a global scale, the. crying, the euro tears, the sheer. [laughter]. whimpery of Europe regarding this. decision, everything from Belgium is. lawyering up. Belgium shouldn't play. UEIFA that this is illegal. You can't do. this. And it all stems from one thing.

and one thing only. And people say, "Oh, you don't like Trump and this and that.". No, no, no, no. They don't like that. we're getting good at soccer, boys. The. Europe is petrified because if we're. good at soccer, they got nothing. We're. bigger than they are, we're better than. they are, we bail them out in every. world war. We are the United States. We're the bully. We're the tough guy. And this is the one sport we've never. paid attention to.

>> Sorry, but now we're getting interested. I like it. I have to say it's got. inherent appeal. I like to visit Europe. I'm fine with the Europeans, but they. are a bunch of whiners. And America's. got 330 million people. And if we. [laughter] really get serious about. soccer, they're in trouble. >> I I agree. I agree with all of it. I. think that we've always been the. laughingtock in the soccer world. And. that's why all of our best players do. what? They go overseas to play because. that's where the absolute best soccer is. called is played. And and it's football.

there, right? They laugh at our American. football. Football everywhere else. except North America is soccer. again. with Donald Trump and I wrote this down. I mean, he said the red card equaling a. game suspension is dumb. IT HAS ALWAYS. BEEN THAT WAY. There's nothing new here. So, sometimes I'm like, I just want him. to just do a little bit more homework. before we speak about things. And at the. end of the day, I am planning my entire. afternoon and evening around watching. this game. and I will be cheering just. like you and especially glad there.

[laughter]. >> I like I can't believe it, but I too. will be watching this. Here is a little. bit more on the ref, okay, who Trump was. blasting. Um, so our guy received a. straight red car from referee Raphael. Klouse after a video review, but the. decision was widely condemned as. extremely harsh. Klouse did not even. award a free kick initially despite. standing yards from the incident. This. is what I was saying. At first, he. didn't even call it, like he wasn't. bothered by it at all, but was. encouraged to review the incident by the.

video assistant referee. >> Right. >> Um, now here's the post on Klouse and. his previous controversies. He. previously was investigated by his home. country due to a 2024 CPI parliamentary. inquiry which summoned the 46-year-old. as a witness regarding match fixing, sage steel, and sports betting. Multiple. clubs, primarily Bodafogo, raised. concerns over Klaus's decisions and. alleged patterns of irregular cards in.

series A matches. Klaus was found not. guilty of wrongdoing by the Brazilian. Football Confederation and faced no. charges as investigators found no direct. evidence linking him to any scheme. He. wasn't punished and his involvement in. the Brazilian investigation did not. hinder FIFA's decision to deploy him as. a top official at the highest level. Guilty. >> [laughter]. >> GUILTY. >> YES. AND GUESS WHAT? Let's talk to the. president of FIFA. We we knew this. coming in. So, as far as the FIFA.

governing body, when you've got a guy. with that kind of a resume, why the hell. is he allowed to even participate in. this World Cup in this role? Like, he. should have been completely disqualified. ahead of time. And the only time we're. bringing it up now is is when it. inconveniences us. And I agree, there. were mis calls throughout that game um. from the same guy. I mean, he ignored. calls and and with players being pulled. down by their jerseys, like I don't like. the guy ahead of time because most of us. knew that this was an issue. Why is he.

allowed in? And that's the bigger. picture going forward, right? Is that is. to every single referee official needs. to be investigated when it's something. this big? By the way, just like in the. NFL, it takes years and years. You start. in high school and then college and then. you get hopefully to college football. playoff before it's 20 years before. you're allowed to be an NFL referee. you. assume it that it is a similar setup um. with the World Cup and with soccer where. you're starting low and earning it and. if you don't do a good job officiating. in the NBA finals like you'll never get.

asked back but you have to be really. good to get to that point. It absolutely. should be the same way. It goes back to. the corruption with FIFA that has been. rampant for years. Why they allowed him. in, I don't know. It shouldn't have. gotten to this point. It did deserve a. penalty. A yellow maybe, not a red. But. that is the rule. If you get a red, you're out. And go USA. >> I mean, but can I just ask you like. wouldn't any team contest this? >> It's just we went a little higher up the.

food chain than most. Any team would. contest this. >> We didn't I I'm pretty sure Team USA um. didn't say, "Hey, get the White House on. the line. maybe he can help us out. Like. no, Trump Trump picked up the phone. himself and made the call once he. realized what what had happened and and. it is unfair and as my dad always told. me, life isn't fair. Sports aren't fair. So, do we go have we didn't ask for the. president to get involved? I I I want to. make that clear. I don't want people.

from around the world to be mad at Team. USA. You can be mad at our. commander-in-chief and maybe mad at FE. for president and everybody else who was. involved in the decision to resend the. red card, but this isn't team USA. Let's. not take it out on the Americans. And of. course, the Euros probably will, especially if we go on um if we go on to. win this game, but at at the end of the. day, I I I don't know what could have. been differently by done differently by. the Americans. Um if it were reversed, I.

would be upset. Like. I think Argentina's one of the ones. favored to possibly win. >> Um Spain, right, is another one. Like. >> the Americans are not favored to win the. whole thing. I feel like we're arguing. over just how far we advance or Belgium. advances. Okay. And like. >> but they might. go back to if we win the whole thing. Yes. It's going to be very difficult. >> No, but go back to the 1980 US hockey. team. There were no expectations for us. And the miracle on ice like it happened. This could happen. Megan, you don't.

know, especially with what has happened. in our game also had an asterisk because. did that last goal go in before the. buzzer? Not not fair anyone, >> right? But but we don't care. We don't. care. We don't We think it's fine. We're. just asking to have our best player play. the [laughter] game. That's it. Not with. any. wrongfully. >> I'm I'm I I want to I'm praying that. Belgium doesn't get their way with this. appeal, right? Because there could be a. change before the game starts. because. they have a right to do that too. And if.

I'm them, I'm doing the same damn thing. This is This is where I'm. >> Why are we listening to Belgium? What. have they given us besides the. [laughter] waffle? They have given us a. Steve Jobs. They can come to the table. and bargain equally about presidential. power and its use or misuse. >> The only thing that's missing, >> Megan, the only thing that's missing is. an Fbomb from you. Like, I've been. waiting. Come on. [laughter]. >> I I'm doing better, Sage. I'm trying. No, I'm not really trying. I mean, I'm. mildly trying to cut back. [laughter].

Mildly. Wait, I want to give you one. more. Dave Portau. Here he is in s 12A. >> I'm going to need some factchecking from. fact check people. >> But I've seen a lot of talk that this. has been done before in the World Cup. like uh Ronaldo had his suspension. pushed off, a bunch of things. So, it's. not the first time this has ever. happened. It was the right call and for. and this has united a nation. And I'll. also say, and I know T Bob, you're not a. Trump guy and I don't know people's.

politics. If you are against this and you're a. United States citizen deported, I want. you out of the country. If you have a. problem with this guy playing because. you're letting politics get in the way. and you don't like Trump plays a phone. call and you think this is wrong, deported. I want you on the first bus, plane, train. See you. Go live somewhere. else. This is about winning soccer. >> [laughter].

>> You know what? I think there's a few. people that I'd like on the list ahead. of those of us maybe questioning that. I'd like to have deported. It's a very. long list of people I'd love to have. deported. And I know we probably agree. on a lot of those people. Um yeah, I. it's it's it's hysterical. Courtney, like that's why Dave Porter is a genius, too. He just comes on and he and he. tells it like it is. You know, the last. thing I'll say is that is that what if. because they were still reviewing this. What if they were gonna resend that red. card on their own before the president. got involved? And by the way, maybe the.

president got involved and he didn't. have to tell us and no one would know. and this controversy wouldn't even be a. thing. >> Oh, I mean it's in the Wall Street. Journal today all the backstory about. how Harold Luckn Lutnik and Rudy. Giuliani son Andrew Giuliani who works. for the administration came up with a. plan like how are we going to get this. reversed? How are we going to get the. big guy involved? He's going to make a. phone call. like they're they're pretty. much owning it. It's not like the White. House is denying that he made the call. or got involved. It's just a question of. nuance like what was said exactly the. president. >> They could have kept this on the deal.

and and and just kept it a secret. >> I didn't tell him what to do. I didn't. tell him what to do. I just made clear, [laughter] you know, that was a the rent. stays like before. [laughter]. >> I love it. Sage, thank you for helping. us understand it and explaining it to. us. It's wonderful to see you. >> Great to see you. Have fun watching. tonight. >> Yeah, you too. All right. Well, and. we'll we'll redux tomorrow and see what. happened. Hopefully, this call does not. get reversed. I don't want to hear it.

Belgium, go work on becoming great in. your own right before you try to tear. down our soccer players. We just want. our guy to play. The red card does not. seem like it was an appropriate call. And I too have questions about the ref. Um, okay. We turn the page. We've got. some other news to get to and we do have. to follow what's happening in this Tyler. Robinson preliminary hearing. They are. putting the evidence on the stand now. for the first time in a formalized. [music] setting and we have got you. covered with the best legal team in the. business.

Hey, thanks for watching today's full. episode. If you're new here, throw us a. subscribe, see what you think, stay in. touch. There's plenty more goodness. where this one came from. As always, we. really do value your feedback, so email. me, too. Megan megyn megan kelly.com or. just leave a comment down below. I do. read them. I meander over and I scroll. through and I find them very. entertaining and really appreciate the. feedback. But in any event, join the. community by becoming a subscriber. So. you miss nothing. We value your support. We may not always agree on positions,

but as you know, I'm very open-minded to. people who disagree with me. That's how. I learn. So, thanks and thanks for. trusting us to always talk about it. openly, honestly, and with provocative. conversations. You might already own a. firearm, but what if you could start. with less lethal methods to avoid the. financial and mental repercussions of. actually pulling the trigger of a gun? Or what if you just want to add to your. arsenal so that you have different tools. available to you depending on the. situation you're in? This is where Burna.

comes in. That's B RNA. Burna's less. lethal launchers are equipped with tear. gas and kinetic ammo and designed to. incapacitate an attacker for up to 40. minutes. What I like about it is you. don't actually have to hit the attacker. If you hit the wall right behind him, it. can still take him out. And Burna is. excited to introduce the allnew compact. launcher. It's sleek, it's slim, and it. hits like a sledgehammer. Same size as a. smartphone, allowing women, for example, to conceal carry everywhere comfortably.

and with confidence. You pop that baby. in your purse or give it to your. daughter before she goes off to college. and you feel better instantly. It fires. at 400 p feet per second. That's a lot. of power to stop aggressors in their. tracks. Especially for people who are. not comfortable with a firearm, this is. an option. Their pistols are. Americanmade and hand assembled in Fort. Wayne, Indiana. With over 80% of the. components in the compact launcher being. sourced in the USA, burn is legal in all. 50 states. It requires no background.

checks and it can be shipped direct to. your door. And Burn is trusted by. hundreds of police departments, too. Try. before you buy if you like. Visit. burna.com. By rnna.com to find a burna. dealer partner near you. That's by. yna.com. Welcome back to the Megan Kelly show. You know, it was almost exactly a. [music] year ago, almost exactly one. year. July 11th, I think, was is the. one-year mark that I was with Charlie.

Kirk at the Student Action Summit being. put on by Turning Point. We sat down, we. talked about Pam Bondi. That was the big. story in the news 12 months ago and that. ridiculous memo from the DOJ saying, "You're not getting anything more on. Epstein." And everybody was what? This. is not going to fly. You remember the. controversy and a lot of that entire. seminar was devoted to Epstein because. Charlie was also outraged over it. Well,

this is the first big scandal, I'd say, of the Trump administration that's on. team rational. It's not a fake media. scandal like the left tries to create. for President Trump every other day. It's one of the rights own making and. it's not going well. And it has to do. with Jeffrey Epstein. >> Yeah. Let let me just ask you. make some noise if you care about the. Jeffrey Epstein scandal. [cheering]. >> Raise your hand if it matters a lot to.

you. Raise your hand. >> So, every hand of 7,000 people, >> everybody cares. It I. >> a lot. I said a lot. Every hand. While. he didn't feel he could be the chief. critic of the administration, he did. feel that those of us who had already. spoken out about it because the news had. already broken prior to my arrival out. there um. could they could be his voice and they. could give voice to the outrage being. felt especially by the young Trump base. who did not agree that Epstein was over.

or that all the disclosures that had. been necessary had been made. And um he. specifically said to me at that at that. event behind the scenes like you have to. do it. I you know I can't do it. And I. said I'm good. I've been talking with my. audience about this all week. No one's. going to be surprised where I stand. And. he led me in a Q&A about. Epstein. that was wellreceived by the audience. and we did an audience poll like how.

many of you care about this? And they. all did. And it was a typical fiery. exchange at a Turning Point event. between me and Charlie. It was it was. great and he was great. And there's a picture of the two of us. backstage walking out. I have on a black. dress with polka dots. He's got his suit. on. He's got a huge thousand watt smile. on. And I'm doing one of those like, you. know, sort of here we go finger points. at the camera. And we were both having a.

great time. You know, it was a little. bit of a controversial moment for the. Trump administration, which we both. supported. But we were thrilled that. President Trump was president. That he. was enacting his agenda. That Turning. Point was on top of the world. Charlie. had built this juggernaut of an. organization into a hundred million. dollar org per year. And we had a. national voice and we had young people. there by the thousand to participate in. the political process and express.

themselves. And it was also at that event that. Charlie Tucker Carlson and I spoke. backstage about Tucker and his criticism. of Israel and Netanyahu and the war and. their interference in American politics. And I was a witness to Charlie saying to. Tucker before he went out there because. Tucker had offered like, you know, do. you want me to dial that back? I know. your donors may not love all that. And I. was with them when Charlie came back. over to Tucker and said, "Go, Max.".

>> Go Max. >> And it was tape that we just happened to. capture um my team as we were, you know, getting behind the scenes footage and we. put it out there just to show that's. where Charlie was on his increasing. questions around Israel's role in. American politics. He wanted Tucker to. quote, "Go Max.". That's what happened that day almost a. year ago. No one there had any idea that almost.

two months later exactly, Charlie would. be shot and killed in front of our very. eyes. in in one of the most traumatic things I. think any of us has ever seen on screen, you know? I mean, it was like something. out of a horror film, only it was real. You know, we saw our friend's. murder. We saw his neck get blown apart.

on national TV. And I will never forget. what happened that day. We had been live. on the air. We had done a long show on. Arena, the young Ukrainian gal who was. murdered on that train in North. Carolina. Um, we had Megan Basham, we. had Alli Beth Stucky, we had Heather. McDonald, and we talked about crime and. how this was getting buried, the story, and what the realities were. And then we. wrapped, and I went back to my office in. my studio, and we got word there's been.

a shooting at a Turning Point event. And, you know, sadly in today's day and. age, you you hear there's been a. shooting, you don't it's kind of like, okay. I mean, that's the sad reality. You're like, was anybody actually shot. or was like an attempted thing? cuz. we're kind of used to these things. It's. not that I had no concern. It's just. like you don't think the worst. And then there was a report that Charlie. had been shot. and I immediately texted him saying, "Are you okay?".

And there was no response. Which didn't. necessarily mean anything. You know, it. could be at this point I didn't know. whether the event was ongoing. I didn't. even know whether that report was real. You know, there's so much misinformation. that comes in an event like this. And. then the first video broke of. Charlie clearly getting shot in a. profound way from afar. You know, the. video was from afar, but you could see. his chest.

puff up from an explosion. And that was the first indication we had. that something catastrophically. severe had happened to him. And the deep. deep worry. of whether this had actually happened. You know, you you you think about deep. fakes, you think about I don't know AI. like we just in today's day and age, you. always have to second guess everything. Sometimes we get burned by it. And. just the level of alarm skyrocketed up.

and I said to my team, "We got to go. back on the air right now. Right now.". Because if something has happened to. Charlie, our audience is going to hear. it from going to want to hear it from. us. They're not going to trust the. mainstream media on this at all. And if something terrible has happened. to him, they're going to want to hear it. from us. So, we went down back into the studio. So, I sat down on the set. and just as I did that other video hit,

the closeup where you see Charlie's neck. explode in a river of red blood. immediately emerge out the left side in. what seemed almost truly too gruesome to. be real. It just did not seem like this. was real life. It it was so much blood. so instantaneously. shooting out of my friend. It's just like the most rapid and. aggressive pace. It just seemed like it.

had to be somebody's idea of what this. kind of murder would look like and not. an actual murder because it was just so. instantaneously gruesome and voluminous. and awful. And I screamed out in the studio when I. saw it. I I I I couldn't believe it. And. instantly burst out into tears, which. think about the number of times in your. life you've instantly burst into tears. Hopefully, it's been few and far. between. It certainly has been for me.

And then we went live moments later. You. know, we had our guests lined up to whom. I'll be grateful forever. Glenn Beck, Rich Lowry, Mark Halpern came on among. others, and we got through it together. And then indeed, we had the confirmation. Desireette news that Charlie was dead. That was September 10th, 2025. And here we are. It hasn't even been a. year since Charlie was killed. And it's.

almost been a year since I sat with him. at that Turning Point event. And I kind. of can't believe that we're here talking. about his alleged killer. That's where we are. So much has happened in the past year, dueling narratives around Charlie's. death. Serious questions being raised by. many people about whether this gun could. have caused that injury. And that is a. fair question. People I really trust.

like Rob O'Neal, who's a, you know, trained Navy Seal sniper, does not believe that it could happen. And I trust him implicitly and I. understand that's a real question and. we're going to have to get into that. Um, obviously questions about whether. somebody else had something to do with. it, you know, whether Tyler was the. shooter at all and if he was, whether. somebody else had something to do with. it, put him up to it, knew about it, worked to cover it up. And that's a. very, very wide web.

We saw texts from the trans. Tifa community, the this aggressive. trans group online predicting something. terrible was going to happen to Charlie. that day. We never heard more about it. never heard anything more about it. There have been questions about whether. Israel may have played some sort of a. role in this because Charlie was. becoming increasingly Israel skeptical. and was making room for Israel skeptics. in the Republican party which was a.

direct threat to the support that Israel. needs from America. But that's become. extremely controversial. Many people. tried to stop the people who are raising. that question from speaking about it at. all. This past year, I have tried to. make room for those people to ask their. questions because I think they're fair. questions. It's a fair question. The stakes are so. incredibly high for Israel and its. relationship with America. And Charlie. was becoming much more skeptical of. Israel and its role in American.

politics. And I saw it myself. He hosted. a round table of young Israel skeptics. at that event. He told Tucker to go Max. in front of my eyes. And he would come. back on this show on August 6th in front. of all of you. and express his consternation over being. called an anti-semite. because of what happened at that Turning. Point event around Epstein. As if you're. an anti-semite if you have criticisms of.

somebody who happened to be Jewish and. American. That's absolutely absurd. If you don't like Megan Kelly, does it. make you anti-atholic? What. the What? What the What? What is that? Um, in any event, you heard him here. expressing his anger at people who were. doing that to him. And look, that's. probably not going to be allowed at this. preliminary hearing or at the trial. because while you can have suspicions.

about somebody else's role in a murder. like this one, you cannot get that into. evidence unless you have real proof and. a legitimate good faith basis for. raising it. And we've discussed with our. expert panel before about whether. they've got any of that outside of Tyler. Robinson. And the last we took a hard. look at this, they didn't. So, you can. speculate all you want. You can have. your suspicions. You can have your. beliefs, but what you need in order to. introduce it into evidence is proof.

As we go through this preliminary. hearing this week, we're going to be. sticking to the the proof that is. offered by both sides. Uh, and that's. that's where we begin today. Do we have time to run this setup. package, Steve? I've been talking for. longer. We we did a setup package to. sort of take you back through how we got. here and uh we're going to play that and. then we come back we'll bring our expert. legal panel in and we will get into it. >> Here you go. >> Good morning ladies and gentlemen. We.

got him. >> 10 months after Tyler Robinson. surrendered to police, prosecutors are. finally set to reveal the case they say. proves he murdered Charlie Kirk. >> Could you state your name? >> Tyler James Robinson. The security for. this week's preliminary hearing will be. extremely tight. According to local. reporting, Robinson will be brought to. court each day in an armored [music]. vehicle. This is not a trial. It's the first time. prosecutors will have to lay out in open. court the evidence they have against.

Robinson. Surveillance video, witness. testimony, evidence prosecutors say. shows Robinson planned this attack. text. messages allegedly between Robinson and. his so-called trans furry lover Lance. Twigs and a letter prosecutors say. Robinson left behind for Twigs. We first. got our hands on it back in the spring. I had the opportunity to take out. Charlie Kirk and I took it. I wish we. could have lived in a world where this. did not feel necessary. I wish I could.

have stayed for you and lived our lives. together. I don't think this is going to. satisfy people who have doubts about him. because it's it's written in that same. formal tone. It doesn't exactly sound. like a Jenzer, but I think what we're. seeing here, folks, is that's how this. guy talked. Twigs was given partial. immunity in exchange for cooperating. with investigators. He's not expected to. testify in person this week. Instead, the prosecution is expected to present a. recorded interview with investigators.

And then there's the forensic evidence. police claim they have relating to. Robinson. [music] DNA allegedly found on. the rifle trigger, DNA on the fired. casing, [music] DNA on unfired. cartridges, DNA on the towel wrapping. the rifle. One piece of that evidence. generating sensational headlines earlier. this year. >> The shocking claim in the Charlie Kerr. case. An ATF analysis of a bullet. fragment recovered during Charlie's. autopsy could not conclusively determine.

whether it had been fired from. Robinson's alleged rifle. >> The defense says it may try to use that. analysis to clear Robinson. >> The headlines suggested the bullet could. not be matched to the murder weapon. And. while that was technically true, the. full story is a bit more complicated. >> It's mostly a big nothing to tell you. the truth. It's not all unusual to have. difficulty making a match between a. bullet recovered on autopsy and a. firearm. You don't actually even need. the bullet, of course, to find someone. guilty of having fired the bullet. >> The most powerful moment this week may.

have nothing to do with the evidence. It's expected to be the first time. Charlie's widow, Erica, and his parents. will come face to face with the man. accused [music] of killing him. When I. sat down with Erica last fall on our. tour, I asked her about that incredible. moment at Charlie's memorial service. That young man, I forgive him. If you could say something to him, if. you say something to his parents, like.

what would it be? Would it be anger? Would it be sympathy? What would it be? That's a good question. It wouldn't be sympathy. It wouldn't be. anger. Anything that I could ever. wish upon him or that family would pale. in comparison. of the justice of God. The preliminary hearing is in a break.

right now. We're going to take a break, too. And when we come back on the. opposite side, we'll tell you what's. happened in court this morning and. what's likely to happen next. We've got. our full panel of legal experts. We're. going to have this covered for you all. week. In the meantime, say a prayer for. [music] his suffering family and keep. Charlie in your thoughts as well and. turning point. We'll be right back. Are you feeling sluggish, bloated, not. quite like yourself? This affects so. many of us. Life constantly bombards us.

with silent threats, processed foods, seed oils, artificial light, non-stop. stress, all of which can disrupt gut. health, drain your energy, and weaken. your immune health while you're not even. paying attention. When that happens, it's not that your body's broken, it's. that it might be missing the right. inputs. This is why you need to know. about Arra cholesterol. This thing's. packed with more than 400 bioactive. nutrients that they say can work at a. foundational level to fortify gut.

health. So many of our issues start with. poor gut health that can support immune. health. They say can also fuel recovery. after a workout and promote whole body. vitality. Doesn't that sound good? Strong gut integrity can support. metabolism, skin and hair health. Yes, if you're having problems there, it. could begin in your gut and even. performance and recovery, which is why. cholesterol has long been valued by some. elite athletes. If you are looking to. take back control of your health from. the inside out, consider Armra. And they.

have a special deal for you right now. Go to arra.com/megan. or enter megn to get 30% off your first. subscription order. That's a rmr.com. Sage Steel is still on the soccer case. Forwarding [music] to me just now the. following headline. Belgium's uh appeal. over Faren Bologan has been rejected. Rejected by FIFA clearing path for USA.

star to play World Cup game after. Trump's intervention. Yay. That's the. right decision. Go team USA. And then at. the same time, FIFA and its president, Giani Infantino, has just released this. statement denying denying that President. Trump's phone call is the re the reason. that uh the call was initially reversed. and now they're standing by it. He he. says as follows. He writes as follows in. this written statement. Uh I've seen the.

public comments regarding the decision. of the independent FIFA disciplinary. committee related to the suspension of. Farar and Bologan and I would like to. reiterate a fundamental principle of. FIFA's governance. FIFA's judicial. bodies are independent. They operate. autonomously, apply the FIFA. disciplinary code and decide cases based. on the applicable regulations and the. specific facts before them. Their. independence is essential to the. credibility and integrity of football. and this must always be respected. Yes, I regularly discuss matters related to.

the FIFA World Cup with the president of. the United States. And on this matter, I. did receive a call from Trump, just as I. received calls from heads of state, government officials, football. stakeholders, and business execs from. around the world on many different. issues. During our convo, I explained. that there was an ongoing legal process. involving FIFA's independent judicial. bodies, and that the case would be. decided in due course by the competent. bodies. That's how FIFA's system works, and it's a principle that I will always. uphold. I read the decisions of the FIFA. disciplinary committee when they are.

issued. Sometimes I'm surprised by them. Sometimes I agree with them and. sometimes I disagree. What I always do, however, is respect those decisions and. the autonomy of the bodies that make. them. Whether we personally like a. decision or not is irrelevant. Respect. for independent institutions and the. rule of law is what protects the. integrity of our competitions and the. credibility of FIFA at all times. So. that's a clear denial that Trump's phone. call had anything to do with the. reversal. Whatever. The reversal stands. The. game's going to go on. Cry in your soup.

some more, Belgium. Just get your guys. out there and try to win, okay? All. we're asking is to play with our regular. team. That's it. And having a. call from the sound of it, not standing. against us. By the way, online people. are already pointing out that reportedly. Kier Starmer, you heard Sage make. reference to it, interfered in uh. England's game against Mexico to make. sure against somebody in Mexico. Maybe. it was Mexico, I don't know, but to make.

sure that the game was played a little. bit delayed. There was bad weather. coming. He reportedly wanted them to. acclimate. We'll see. Like, do you is it. really so unprecedented that a that a. leader should contact the head of FIFA. and say, "Gee, I didn't like that. I'm. sure it happens. Uh so in any event, we. go forward with our full team tonight. Go USA. Uh okay, it is 1:00 here in the. East and we are monitoring the Tyler. Robinson preliminary hearing. This is it. for the prosecution where they have to. convince the judge that they do have.

enough evidence to hold Robinson over. for a real trial. Officer Chris Badley. Baggley is on the stand. He's with. Spanish Fork, Utah Police Department. now. He was previously with Utah Valley. University police uh on the day that. Charlie was killed. So far, the. prosecution has been establishing his. knowledge of the location of various. buildings on campus and he just said. this about what he heard when Charlie.

was shot. >> You mentioned So you mentioned you heard. something. What did you hear again? >> I heard a gunshot. >> Okay. And can you describe the re you. described Mr. Kirk's reaction? Was that. simultaneous to hearing the the gunshot? >> Yes, it was. >> When he fell to the left? >> Yes. >> Did you see the reaction from the crowd? >> Yes. >> What was that? >> Everybody kind of got up. They all said. a lot of people were screaming, standing. up and starting to run in all different. directions away from the center of the. tent. People are running up. People are.

laying down on the steps. I'm trying to. jump over people to get to the bottom of. the stairs so I can help uh stop an. individual that's probably shooting. Um, what happened next? >> Um, by the time I got to the bottom of. the stairs, we I was informed on the. radio that we had a shooter in custody. >> That of course would not be the actual. shooter. It was another man who in. injected himself into the melee. Uh, joining me now to react to all of this.

are Viva Fry. He's former litigator and. Rumble creator and Dave Arinburgg and. Ashley Merchant. They are two of the. hosts of our MK true crime show on the. MK media podcast network which you can. find just go to any podcast app and type. in MKTrime. It'll come up or you can go. to mktrime.com and find links to all the. multiple platforms. Great to see you. all. Dave, let me start with you as. former prosecutor um former states. attorney for Palm Beach County. What do.

you see as the goals for the prosecution. here and the challenges for them as they. try to convince this court that they do. have probable cause to hold Tyler. Robinson over for trial? >> Megan, good to be back with you and my. fellow Florida men and women, Ashley and. Viva Fry. Ashley actually is from. Florida. She lives in Georgia now. So, we're all Florida people. So, I the. prosecution here has a slam dunk. I. mean, as far as this hearing, this this. is not beyond a reasonable doubt. They.

just need to show some probable cause. They've got plenty of that. The This is. really for the defense. The defense. wants to use this as a way to get as. much information out there to. cross-examine as many people as they can. to try to help their defense. It was a. loss for them when they couldn't get. Twigs to appear in person. They wanted. to cross-examine him. They wanted to. lock him down. Instead, he's going to be. on video. >> Robinson's boyfriend. >> Correct. Correct. Now I I Lance Twigs is. his name, but the defense, interestingly, the defense refers to him. as Luna Twigs because I guess he has.

transitioned already. So both sides, the. prosecution of the judge call him Lance. Twigs and the defense calls him Luna. Twig. So you can see where they're. going. They're going to they're going to. try to discredit Twigs and try to point. the finger at him as much as possible. But as far as the prosecution, they're. just going to show the evidence. I would. say a win for them would be if they can. just show as little as possible to not. turn turn over all their cards unless. they absolutely have to because I think. they've got Tyler Robinson dead to.

rights. >> Why Why are they doing it this way, Dave, with a preliminary hearing as. opposed to going in front of a grand. jury? >> Oh, the defense wants this. The defense. wants it. So th this is something that. in Utah happens and although I'm not an. expert in Utah law, the defense can like. push for this because they want the. prosecution to put up all the evidence. so they have a chance to cross-examine. it. And so that's what happens. But. yeah, it would be much easier just to.

get an indictment before the grand jury. move forward. But here, I guess in Utah, they want the evidence so that the judge. could officially find probable cause and. then move forward. This is something the. defense wants, not the prosecution. >> But it is it like who is it up to? Because our information was that I mean, of course, the defense wants it. They. always want it, but our information was. that that the grand jury proceedings are. actually more much more rare in Utah. That they do happen, but they're much. more rare. Ashley, do you have any. thoughts on it? >> No, it's I mean, it's all of the things.

that both you and Dave were talking. about. I have a lot of thoughts on it. It is very rare to have this type of. proceeding. Typically, they would just. go in front of a grand jury. And the. grand jury, I mean, there's an old adage. that it would indict a ham sandwich. That's true. They could definitely avoid. this and go to a grand jury. My. understanding in Utah is that's not the. local custom. They typically afford. these preliminary hearings, but they. definitely don't have to. But as a. defense lawyer, I can. >> what what we I was told by my team is. Utah does have grand juries, but they're. used much less often than preliminary.

hearings in Utah. I don't know why. It. seems like it might just be a local. custom, but but it's an odd local custom. given the fact that don't prosecutors. typically not want to do this because. it's really showing your cards to the. defense in a way that will better enable. them to potentially defeat the charges. at trial. It it is and one of the. reasons that they do it, I mean, one of. the only reasons is to buy more time if. they're not ready to indict. So. sometimes because you have to have a. preliminary hearing if a person is being. held in custody without a bond and so.

they want to have a preliminary hearing. so they can prolong the time before they. have to go in front of a grand jury. This happens a lot of times when there's. like DNA that's outstanding and maybe. that you know they they want that result. back before they go in front of a grand. jury, things like that. But in this case. it doesn't make sense why they would. want to avoid a grand jury. There's. nothing really outstanding at this point. and it really does just give the defense. for really a bite at the apple. I mean, you they can lock in certain testimony, you know, cross-examination, things like. that. Um, they get a first bite at the. apple at these witnesses and they can.

try and poke holes in the case. They. lock these folks into testimony. So, it's kind of surprising that they're. putting all of this up. I'm like Dave. I. think that they should put as little as. up as little up as possible just to get. this ruling that there's probable cause. so that they can move on and go to the. grand jury. It it doesn't take much to convince a. judge that and it's a judge decision. here that there is probable cause to. hold him over for trial. I mean, Ashley, the alleged confession alone should do.

it, should it not? I mean, there's an. alleged confession on Discord, which is. a gaming site where you also have chats, and that's going to be introduced. There. are text messages alleged from Tyler. Robinson to Lance Twigs with an alleged. confession. Um, and then there is. something uh with Tyler Robinson turning. himself in to police, though I don't. know what exactly was said, if anything, by Tyler Robinson in that setting to the.

cops. >> They could take all of this evidence and. have a police officer, the lead. investigator, testify for less than 30. minutes and summarize all of this and. get over probable cause. They could do. that. They don't have to play all these. interviews. They don't have to put forth. all of this evidence. I mean, some of. the people that they have on their. witness list, it sounds like they're. actually going to walk through some. scientific testimony. They don't need to. do that. That's not anything they need. to do. So, I can only imagine that the. reason they're doing this is to try to. to show the world how strong their case. is, to try to somehow, you know, influence people who are talking about. the case and show how strong the case.

is. But, I don't think they need to do. it. So, it's very surprising to me that. they're actually going through this. process when they really could get. probable cause found within, I mean, honestly, less than 30 minutes. There's. there's no need for more than that. And. they could have a summary witness, you. know, who testifies about all this. stuff. >> That is hugely interesting, Viva. The. the prosecutor in this case, the. prosecutor's office, and the prosecutor. was just found in contempt because he. got out there after that Daily Mail.

piece hit that I referenced in the setup. package saying the bullet didn't match. the gun. Right? Like that was kind of. the headline that the bullet retrieved. from Charlie's body in the autopsy did. not match the gun of this shooter. And. he got out there and said that is not. correct. The Daily Mail's headline was. wrong and the the takeaway that people. are going with is wrong. It's that there. was no conclusive proof that it did. match. And as Andrew Bronca pointed out.

in that segment we aired in part there, that's not unusual that the bullet would. be so destroyed that it's just not. capable of being matched up to the gun. But his point was that doesn't mean it. wasn't the bullet from that gun. It just. means there was so little left of it. that we couldn't make the comparison to. to affirmatively say one way or the. other. So the courts found that wasn't. actually that was okay for him to come. out and say because that report went. everywhere from the Daily Mail. But he. went beyond that and said, "And we think.

we're going to easily be able to prove. that Tyler Robinson committed this crime. beyond a reasonable doubt. We have. overwhelming evidence against him." And. the court said, "Now you went too far. and found him in contempt because he had. issued a gag order." The reason I'm. raising this with you is because clearly. this prosecutor is feeling, forgive the. phrase, under the gun and he is paying. attention to the public narratives. around Charlie's murder. and he. obviously is very concerned about the.

public being swayed away from thinking. Tyler Robinson did it. Do you think. that's why he's doing what Ashley. accurately describes as very unusual. with like a kitchen sink approach here. with a witness list that is going to. take us an entire week to get through. instead of the 30 minute cop on the. stand saying he confessed. Here are the. text messages. Bye. >> Well, it's interesting you people need. to understand that distinction that the. contempt ruling was not because of what. uh the prosecutor said to correct the.

record on the misrepresentation of that. forensic report. it was that he went on. TMZ afterwards and said, "We have a. strong case." Which I don't understand. how that's contempt. I mean, I. appreciate there's a gag order. A. prosecutor saying, "We have a good. case." I would expect them to believe. that if they're prosecuting it, but one. thing that's. >> it's so generic. >> It's it's generic. I mean, he shouldn't. have done it at TMZ, maybe, you know, in. court is one thing, and then just don't. say anything out of court, but he had to. correct the record on the. misrepresentation of that Daily Mail. article. What's clear is that both.

parties, prosecution and defense, are. trying to wage a a war in the court of. public opinion. And I wouldn't be. surprised if the defense is insisting on. this and happy to make it as robust as. possible to confuse the general public. into saying, "Look how unfair this. prosecution is. We didn't get to have. Lance Twigs uh, you know, testify in. person so we could cross-examine him.". because people don't understand the. distinction between a preliminary. hearing and a trial on the merits and. the burden of proof for probable cause. versus a criminal conviction. And the. hardest and most concrete evidence of.

that, I'm having a back and forth now. with Candace Owens who, you know, has. already declared this to be a show. trial. And I'm like, it's not even a. trial yet. This is a preliminary. hearing. When it's probable cause, and. you know, hearsay evidence is. admissible. You don't get to necessarily. cross-examine the individual who made. the statement. That is where you go to. probable cause say okay here's evidence. is admissible and so you don't get to. cross-examine now you'll pick apart the. evidence when it's time to prove it. beyond a reasonable doubt right now. probable cause slam bank like everyone.

says how it's going to take 5 days I. don't know but you know that the defense. is going to try to confuse the general. public into thinking this preliminary. hearing is somehow something of a trial. on the merits subject to beyond a. reasonable doubt when it's the exact. opposite. >> The witness list goes on and on. Dave, it's I'm looking at it here. I know you. guys have seen it, too. There's Officer. Baggley, like we just said, he's on the. stand now. Someone from Utah Bureau of. Investigation, Agent Bricker Mortynson, who's also from the State Bureau of. Investigation. Agent Davis, same thing.

Lance Twigs via recorded video. We're. going to come back to that in a second. Um, and then I mean the the evidence. list, my gosh, it's we'll be here all. day if I if I list it all, but here's. just a couple things we expect them to. introduce. drone images from Utah Valley. University. Uh, photo of a screwdriver, which they allegedly found on the roof. Daytime photo of sniper perch. Photo of. sniper perch. Photo of sniper perch. Video of mother with children in crowd. because they need to show that somebody. was scared that he what he did that day.

scared women and children. Written. statement of a period. Right. Video of. shooting from behind questioner. Written. statement of T. Phillips. Video of. shooting from behind Charlie. Written. statement from Turning Point. Video of. shooting from behind booth. Photo of. rifle in bushes. Photo of rifle in. bushes. Photo of rifle in box. Photo of. rifle in box. Medical examiner report. Doorbell camera surveillance from 910. 2025. Written statement of C. Noble of. Mike Mitchell. Um recorded statement of. Lance Twigs. Text messages between Tyler.

Robinson and Lance Twigs. There it is. That's an important one. Discord chats. Photograph of No. Okay. I I could be. here all day. like they're going to be. introducing a lot of physical evidence, but but let's just start with the the. big one, which is video recorded video. of Lance Twigs. This is the guy. I. thought it was remarkable in the setup. package. Jake Whitman, our producer, found these pictures of Lance Twigs. looking like a like a man, like I don't. want to say a reg regular normal man,

but like a a a guy, like your typical. guy. And then you see the after pictures. when he was dating Tyler Robinson and. living with him where he's got the the. ears on and the furry cap. And obviously. this is an unwell person. You don't. declare yourself trans and a furry as. this guy did. And I mean I I'm sorry, but like the name Luna is perfect for. him, short for you know what. Um I this. person is the prosecution's main.

witness, Dave, which I would think poses. a bit of a challenge to them because. this is not a well man. >> Yeah. And you're in Utah, a culturally. conservative state and so they're going. to see this individual and they may not. like him. Um but he is a crucial witness. because he's the supposedly the. motivation for Tyler Robinson. He did it. for love of Lance Twigs and Lance Twigs. by all account knew nothing about it. He.

saw the message afterwards and was. shocked and he is cooperating. But there. will always be conspiracy theories out. there. And I think you hit it earlier, Megan, when you said that I think the. reason why you're seeing so much. evidence out there is because the. prosecution is very conscious of the. conspiracy theories and the narrative. That's why the prosecution did what. prosecutors don't normally do and go and. respond to the stuff that the defense. put out about the ballistics and even.

went on TMZ. Yeah, I think that the. judge should not have sanctioned the. prosecutor for it, but I understand that. it's unusual to go on TMZ as a prosec. I. never did that when I was state. attorney, but this is not like any other. case. >> Yeah, he he gave a print statement to. TMZ. didn't physically go on, but it was. a statement to TMZ. And TMZ, you know, with all due respect to Harvey, it's. considered a tabloid publication. They. pay for news. It's, you know, it's it. doesn't have the greatest reputation in.

the field of actual lawyers and judges. who who practice law for a living. But. in any event, that's what he did and it. reached a lot of people. They have wide. reach. Um the Lance Twig's video. statement, Ashley, he's been given use. immunity for this statement. Can you. explain what that means? >> Yeah, definitely. So use immunity means. that the government cannot use what he. says against him. It doesn't mean that. he's immune. So if they found. independent evidence that he was somehow.

involved and they find that and it's not. based on his statement, then they can. still prosecute him. So they're not. limited in their ability to actually go. after him. they're just limited in their. ability to use his statement or anything. that they get from his statement. And so. that allows them to actually play this. Um it undercuts any cross-examination to. a certain extent about you got this. blanket immunity because he's only got. this limited use immunity. Now, the reason they're putting him on. the stand, well, via video, um the.

reason, well, let's just start with. that. The reason they're doing it via. video, you tell me, Ashley, is to. prevent cross-examination. >> Yes. Oh, yeah. I this was so interesting. legally. You know, you've got typically. you don't have witnesses. So, that's the. first thing. Typically, the defense. doesn't get to subpoena witnesses at. these hearings. So, you know, that's. surprising because they don't need them. He's got a statement that that the. officer can just get up there. They. don't even have to play the statement. He could literally say, "Hey, this guy. told me this." And that's admissible. So, you know, the fact that they. actually were trying to get him, but. he's also an out of state witness. So, I.

thought this was a really interesting. part of it. the defense was trying to. get a court order to compel him from. another state to come into the state of. Utah to testify. And that's a big deal. A lot of people don't really realize. that that you can't just subpoena. someone from another state and force. them to come into a different state to. testify because you're essentially. forcing them to cross state lines. You. have to get a court order of need. And. when you're doing that, what you have to. tell the judge is, I actually need this. witness and there's no other way I can. get this evidence in without this. witness being forced to travel into this.

state to testify. So what the defense. was asking they were never going to get. I mean that was just insane that they. thought they would get that. They're. never going to get a judge to compel a. person to actually enter Utah to. testify. So it you know the fact that. they really thought that that might have. happened was was surprising to me. I. think it was just an effort to to sort. of some smoking mirrors maybe. Why why is he necessary at all Viva? because they've got I understand this is. the guy who would we're going to allege.

received text messages and a letter from. the accused killer confessing but they. have those writings they have the text. messages the prosecution they have the. letter you know this isn't a trial where. you need him to authenticate everything. and you need him to contextualize like. you can halfass all of that at a. preliminary hearing to Joe the judge you. make a profer as the lawyer I'm we will. be able to call him we will be able to. authenticate we will be getting all.

these documents in through him here they. are judge in which Tyler Robinson says I. did it so like what is the point of. putting this guy on via video to say all. of that. >> operating within the bounds of what I. know and what I don't know and what I. know that I don't know you know I'm not. a criminal lawyer I don't know if. there's a uh you know purely strategic. reason to show the world that they have. Lance Twigs and that he hasn't absconded. like was the rumor back in the day. whether or not it's just to quell. certain conspiracy theories and to show. the evidence just to the folks out there.

who say uh you know that they have the. wrong guy. My concern with this, and I'm. going to defer to Ashley and Dave on. this, is people are now saying, "Oh, he's not being able to be compelled as a. witness when my understanding is it's. only for the preliminary hearing, and he. can potentially be compelled as a. witness by the defense at the trial. And. so, it's not like he's being totally. procluded from any involvement and all. that they have going forward for a. conviction is this video evidence. It's. lending to some confusion. But my. understanding and subject to.

verification and confirmation from. Ashley and Dave it he's not they can't. compel him now but in theory he could be. compelled as a witness at the trial for. the for the benefit of the defense if. they so choose and that he's not been. given immunity and now can have nothing. further to do with this case. completely. >> and and nor could Ashley nor could they. play this little video they've got going. at trial like if the defendant has the. right to cross-examine and if he doesn't. actually show up physically at the trial. the jury will never see this thing.

>> exactly and that's that what the law. says is he has to be available for. cross-examination whether or not they do. cross-examine him that's a different. story but that means that the. prosecution has to actually bring him. and he has to be available for. cross-examination otherwise they cannot. admit this out of court statement in. And typically what happens is he would. actually take the stand. He would. testify and if he said something. different than what's on this recorded. statement, then they would bring that. in. But if he says exactly what's on. this recorded statement, the juryy's. just going to hear from his mouth. They're not going to hear this recorded.

statement. But he 100% has to be. available at trial. The only way that. he's not not has to be there for this. preliminary hearing is because the rules. of evidence don't fully apply. you don't. have a right to confront witnesses at. the preliminary hearing like you do at a. trial. >> So Dave, this is a PR play. That's I. mean that's what's becoming clear that. they there are cameras in this. courtroom. They're limited. That was a. whole big legal fight that they had on. whether there would be cameras, where. they'll be positioned, what they'll be.

allowed to show. But we did get camera a. camera in there. Not we the Megan Kelly. show, but we the media. So we are going. to see this hearing. We're live. streaming it again at the the entire. thing at youtube.com/megan Kelly if you. guys want to dip in at any mo moment in. the day. Uh it begins every day except. for Wednesday. It's going to begin at. 11:00 a.m. Eastern. On Wednesday it. starts earlier, I think. Um can't. remember off the top of my head, but. what what time, Steve? Oh, okay. On Wednesday it starts later,

3 PM Eastern. Um but this is a PR play. for the nation at large and for the Utah. jury pool. Dave, to put this Luna on the. stand, so to speak, via video because. you know why? What we're not discussing. is there's been a massive controversy. over this alleged confession from Tyler. Robinson to Lance Twigs, aka Luna, because. it sounds made up. The text exchange.

between them is so on the nose and. artificial sounding that even those of. us who believe Tyler Robinson is the. shooter have looked at it like what even. is that? You know, like and I actually. for one wonder whether the video. statement is going to include if I were. the prosecutor I' I'd include this. What's what's with the formal. verbiage between the two of you? like. you were roommates, you were allegedly.

lovers. Like why are you talking like a. couple of Shakespearean actors as. opposed to what we would envision two. Gen Z young men discussing? It's just. very strange and I'll read some of it, but do you think that's what's happening. here? Well, I I do think they are. calling Lance Swigs for the purpose of. making sure you you see it all in. context and that even though he's not. going to be there in person, that you're. going to see that yes, they he can fill.

in the gaps. Uh you had the handwritten. notes, the note that said, "I had the. opportunity to take out Charlie, you're. going to read that." And then he had the. text message to Twig saying, "I had. enough of of his hatred." And then you. had the stuff on Discord, right? You had. the uh the fact that Robinson also. confessed on Discord saying it was me at. uh UVU yesterday. So you have all this. stuff. So it's not just one. That's why. if they want to say I don't believe the. one message. Well, how do you explain.

all three messages that are consistent. with each other? >> Okay, just FYI, this just breaking. Um, Erica and Charlie's parents left the. courtroom when a police officer, this is. VF Matt Finn and Fox, when a police. officer uh started describing the. moments when Charlie was shot and killed. on the campus last September, it was. actually I confirm with my team which is. monitoring this in real time. It was. just the soundbite that we just played. Um, it but the family doesn't know.

exactly where it's going. So, they do. not wish to hear any details of. Charlie's actual murder. or the actual. moments and they're we're told going to. be protecting themselves from hearing. any of that. Um, they don't want to see. the video. They don't want to hear the. details. Who on earth could blame them? I I don't I don't know. I don't know how. you could look at that video. I like as. somebody who really deeply cared about. Charlie Kirk and was was genuinely a. friend of his and he was he of mine,

it's been hard enough like I wish I had. never seen it. I really do. I wish I had. never laid eyes on that. And I think. most people who have seen it can relate. to that. Even if they didn't know. Charlie, it's deeply disturbing. And for. the family to have to see that and hear. details around it would be too much. So. his parents, who have remained entirely. tight-lipped and private around. Charlie's death, um Erica, who's going. to be there the entire five days, we're. told she's she's his representative.

She's the mother of his children. It's very heavy. So, they they've left. for now. Who could blame them? Back to. the text messages. Okay, again, they. they're are bizarre. They they are. strange. Um, and the one of the things I. think that the prosecution needs to. establish. through through Lance Twigs is. show us some other text exchanges. between the two of you because I want to. know if this is how you he really.

talked. Like, is this how Tyler Robinson. talks or texts? Because it's very. strange sounding. I mean, I've got 30. years on Tyler Robinson. He's 23 and I. don't I've never spoken this formally to. anyone in my life, including in legal. papers. It's very strange the his little. add-ons, my love. It's I don't It's very. bizarre. But in any event, here's some. of what they're going to introduce. And. I know they're going to introduce it. because this is in in the charging. document they used to charge Robinson.

Um on September 10th, 2022, the. roommate, not not 2022, it would have. been 2025. Um September 10th, the. roommate received a text message from. Tyler Robinson which read, quote, "Drop. what you're doing. Look under my. keyboard." The roommate looked under the. keyboard and found a note that read the. opportunity to take out Charlie Kirk and. I'm going to take it. End quote. Police. found a photograph of this note. The.

following text exchange then took place. The roommate responded, "What?" with. multiple question marks. You're joking, right? Robinson. I am still okay, my. love, but I'm stuck in Orum for a little. while longer yet. There we go. Like I. played this sound bite one time of this. woman pretending she was at a. Renaissance fair reading these texts and. it was funny cuz she was funny and she. kind of added the dramatic flare but. she's not wrong. It kind of it kind of.

has that feel to it which is one of the. reasons why people don't believe it and. and we're not going to ignore the. realities around this stuff um as we go. through this. We've got to talk about. what people are feeling and how they're. reacting. Shouldn't be long until I can. come home. But I got to grab my rifle. still. To be honest, I had hoped to keep. this secret till I died of old age. I am. sorry to involve you. Roommate, you. weren't the one who did it, right? Robinson, I am. I'm sorry, roommate. I.

thought they caught the person. Robinson: No, they grabbed some crazy. old dude, then interrogated someone in. similar clothing. I had planned to grab. my rifle from my drop point shortly. after, but most of that side of town got. locked down. It's quiet, almost enough. to get out, but there's one vehicle. lingering. Roommate, why? Robinson, why. did I do it, Roommate? Yeah, Robinson, I. had enough of his hatred. Some hate. can't be negotiated out. [snorts]. I I just like.

this is the piece of this that always. gets me because. if if Tyler Robinson shot Charlie. because of the trans thing and Tyler was. having an affair with a trans furry. person, I. I can't help but feel. I don't know if the word is responsible, but like I have a lot of emotions around. that because Charlie and I over the. years discussed the trans thing many.

times privately and publicly. And there. was an earlier turning point event at. which I went and I saw this is like a. year prior to if not more the one I. mentioned. where Charlie wanted me to talk about. and once again similar to with the. Epstein thing and Pam Bondi. He wanted. me to talk about the trans thing on his. show and he said, "Can you can you. please I'm going to ask you questions. about it. Can you please explain to our. audience why it's a thing and why why. it's a big deal?" and he wasn't yet at. the point where he felt comfortable. talking about it himself. And he told me.

that his sister. um who didn't share exactly the same. politics as Charlie had been listening. to our show on that issue and that we. were starting to persuade her on this, you know, that it was wrong what was. happening in girls sports and that was. wrong what was happening in women's. spaces and so on. And Charlie wasn't yet. out there on this issue. And I I can't. help but feel some sort of like. responsibility in getting Charlie. talking about it more. And this is my.

own private stuff to work out, but I'm. just sharing it with you because he did. start talking about it more. He started. talking about it a lot more. And Charlie. appears to have made the fatal mistake. of talking about it to young people on. college campuses where it would get into. the ear of someone like Tyler Robinson, who was obviously. disturbed. not not mentally insane by a. legal standard, but obviously disturbed. And if you believe the prosecution, it. was the trigger that led to the release.

of his trigger against Charlie and took. his life. So anyway, this is just it's. awful to read and it's awful to. consider. I had enough of his hatred. Some hate can't be negotiated out. And. then goes on to talk about trying to. retrieve his rifle. The question, how. long have you been planning this? Robinson a bit over a week, I believe. I. can get close to it, his gun, but. there's a squad car parked right by it. I think they already swept the spot, but. I don't want to chance it. I wish I had.

circled back and grabbed it earlier. Talks about his grandpa's rifle. I don't. know if it had a serial number, but it. wouldn't trace to me. I had to worry. about Prince. I left it in a bush. I had. to change outfits. It's very detailed on. what he allegedly did. He wrapped it in. a towel. And then he writes this, which. is also raised eyebrows on is could this. possibly be real? Remember how I was. engraving bullets? The messages. are mostly a big meme. If I see notices.

bulgew. on Fox News, Fox New is what he writes. I might have a stroke. All right, I'm. going to have to leave it. That really. sucks that he's not going to be. able to get his gun. Judging from today, I'd say grandpa's gun does just fine. I. don't know. I think that was a $2,000. scope. Then Robinson writes, "Delete. this exchange." Then he writes, "My dad. wants photos of the rifle." Which the. father would also say later that he saw. the picture of his son on TV and thought.

it was his son and demanded photos of. the rifle from his boy to see like who's. got it. Like I want a picture of you. with it right now because I'm seeing a. photo of what I think is grandpa's gun. on the news as belonging to the shooter. Uh, and Robinson writes, "My dad wants. photos of the rifle. He says, 'Grandpa. wants to know who has what. The feds. released a photo of the rifle. It's very. unique. He's calling me right now, not. answering. Since Trump got into office, my dad's been pretty diehard MAGA. Robinson. I'm going to turn myself in. willingly. One of my neighbors here is a. deputy for the sheriff." Then you are.

all I worry about, love, roommate, I'm. much more worried about you, Robinson, don't talk to the media. Please don't. take interviews or make comments. If. police ask you questions, ask for a. lawyer and stay silent. That's just one. There's also a letter from Robinson. reiterating reiterating things about. Charlie Kirk. Had the opportunity to. take out Charlie Cook and I took it. Um, this is beforehand though, saying, "I I. could be dead if you're reading this or. facing a long prison sentence and then. allegedly went on Discord and said. more." So, all of this, I mean,

honestly, Dave, it's it's up to the. judge entirely, right? There's no other. person they have to convince. And this. judge is going to take one look at this. and say what. >> probable cause is found. Let's move to. trial and then you have the long process. of discovery and then it gets to trial. and the death penalty remember is still. on the table. Uh one thing the judge. could have done when the judge decided. to sanction the prosecutors and I think.

he should not have sanctioned the. prosecutors but he still despite that. refused to take the death penalty off. the table. He could have done that. We. saw that in Idaho when it came to the. doomsday cult mom that the judge there. didn't like the prosecutor prosecutor's. behavior so they took the death penalty. off the table there. That's not. happening here. >> Yeah, they asked for that. The defense. said the the punishment should be that. the death penalty gets removed for the. prosecutor making those statements to. TMZ and the judge said no that we're not.

going to do that. You've got to pay for. their legal fees and filing the motion. to hold you in contempt. which then. people say, "Well, that's a little silly. because this is a public defender.". Like, the state's already paying for the. legal fees, but okay, whatever. Viva, back to those text messages. They do sound bizarre. They do sound. odd. And what do you make of my own. theory that if the prosecution is wise, they will introduce some sort of earlier. text exchanges between these two to show.

that this was the the way they spoke to. one another? Well, look, uh, I was a. teenager once. Uh, you know, when when. you're in love and you reread your love. letters from, you know, 1996, they are. all pretentious, bizarrely written stuff. in the first place, you know. >> Okay. Pictures or it didn't happen. Viva, [laughter] let's. >> that that box has long been burnt. But. no, the uh when you say it's bizarre, it. is bizarre, but you're talking about a a. boy who's laring as a girl and a furry.

animal. I don't know what normal would. look like among these people. But the. bottom line, I appreciate people think. it's self- serving. It's like the orgy. of evidence that they had in the movie. Minority Report. Oh, you got him. describing the gun, what he did, etc. It's going to come down to the metadata. on those text messages and whether or. not they are authentic. People online uh. suggesting that the text messages were. sent when Tyler Robinson was already in. custody. that will get fleshed out at. trial and the metadata, the time sent, the time received, the devices from.

which they were sent and received is the. evidence that you're going to see at. trial, not at the preliminary hearing. And if it turns out that the metadata. doesn't jive with the timeline, then. people will reassess then. But bottom. line, these are a bunch of, you know, everyone's the hero in their own story. These are young people, mentally ill re, you know, revolutionaries in their own. mind. They're going to sound like. pretentious revolutionaries in text. messages. And uh I I have no difficulty. believing that that's how they'd be. written among, you know, this. demographic. Uh but it'll come down to. metadata and actual evidence that these. messages were sent and received by the.

people who allegedly sent and received. them. >> You know. that the the metadata around those text. messages, Ashley, honestly could be. hugely important in this case. I'm. thinking of Alex Murdoch, you know, Alec. Murdoch, and all the data that came from. his car that just proved how he sped up. between going to visit his mother to. make sure he got there and back in time.

to [clears throat] to kill his family, but make it look like he had done this. longer visit than he had. and all those. tech advances. doomed him, you know, and. >> in today's day and age, the there should be no doubt in this. judge's mind at the end of this week or. ultimately in the jury's mind about who. sent those text messages. Like, it. actually is knowable, at least the. device from which those text messages.

came. I mean, I suppose you can't ever. disprove there wasn't somebody lurking. over the. >> shoulder sitting there taking his taking. his phone and doing that. No, we. definitely and I think we will get some. testimony probably from Mr. Twigs that. this is a way that they talked. You. know, this was sort of a romance. language or something like that that. they were engaging in. Um, but I think. these texts are really important because. this is a death penalty case. And so. everything we're talking about, I think, is relevant to the fact that this is a. death penalty case. This is not a who. done it. I don't believe that this is a. case where the defense even thinks that.

they've got a shot at a at walking him. at a, you know, an acquitt. I mean, I. don't think that's where we're at. I. think all of the things that they're. doing right now is because of the death. penalty. They want Utah, the state wants. the death penalty and the defense. doesn't want the death penalty. That's. what this is about. and all of this. overkill with this um you know. preliminary hearing, all this extra. evidence and stuff. I think it's really. to try to sway the potential jury pool. on a very powerful issue that we're. facing in death penalty litigation and. that is res residual doubt. You know, it.

used to be that people didn't want to. impose the death penalty for various. reasons. Now, what we're seeing is. really they don't want to impose it. because of what's called residual doubt. meaning that they found the person. guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, but. they had a little residual doubt, a. little what if. What if that fingerprint. didn't match? What if that wasn't him, you know, sending those text messages? What if that bullet fragment that didn't. match? What if that meant someone else. actually did the shooting? That little. what if, that residual doubt, that is. what saves people's lives in these death.

penalty cases. And I think the. prosecution is trying to get out in. front of that and get rid of all those. whatifs. And I think that's why they're. sort of going overkill. And I think. that's why the texts are so important. because it goes to motive and they just. want to just oversell it at this point. so that they're not facing that issue. with that residual doubt. >> I but I think they are definitely going. for full acquitt Dave. I actually think. that their banking much in the same way. um there was speculation about.

>> the Carmelo Anthony case and had one of. those jurors made it on who was saying. like I just couldn't find against a. brother, you know, like there was at. least one black juror who got dismissed. for saying exactly that? It was like. okay, thank you for your honesty. Um, if. you can get one juror onto this eventual. jury who doesn't believe Tyler Robinson. had anything to do with it, thinks it. was Israel or it was some group of. transif.

you're going for jury nullification. basically, >> right? But that would be a hung jury if. you had one. You need everyone to get a. full acquitt. And it's hard. You know, you can have one Trojan horse, someone. who lies, someone who's there with an. agenda to get on that jury, but it's. hard to convince the rest of the jury. there. I mean, you you have 12 jurors, and that's going to take a lot to. convince all 12, especially with the.

evidence so strong. So, I understand why. Erica Kirk would feel that way. It's the. prosecution's greatest fear that you'd. have jury nullification. You're not. supposed to nullify a verdict. You're. supposed to follow the evidence and the. law, but there's nothing to stop a juror. from deciding that nope, I'm not going. to send this poor young man who looks so. sweet and wholesome in his sweater and. oversized glasses will probably fit him. with like they did with the Menendez. brothers or the murder at Marjorie. Stoman Douglas. Uh that perhaps that.

person will keep a guilty verdict from. happening and then keep the death. penalty from happening. That's possible. But I don't see any situation where. there would be a full acquitt. >> here. Again, this is like I'm not making. light, believe me, I'm not making light. of Charlie's death. But here's the. Renaissance woman because it does bring. home what to me sounds like the. absurdity around the way they speak. And. I I personally can't even I can't read. the text message anymore without. thinking of this woman's rendition.

Because if you go online for 2 minutes, you will find just thousands of people. who feel as she does that it's too. theatrical, that it's nonsensical, that. it sounds like something like a chat GPT. would have written up for, you know, give me confession from, you know, whatever. Gen Xer or Gen Zer, I should say, who's. in some weird relationship. Watch. >> Hello, my love. You have no [music]. doubt heard of the shooting, and I must.

admit, it was I. I had hoped to keep the. secret to the grave, but alas, I have. not lasted the better part of an hour. Why have I committed this act? It was. the hate of the man. Reason had no. purchase in the poor soil of his soul. You have not asked, but in case you were. wondering where I hid the rifle, my. love. It was over yonder by that. lingering [music] squad car. My old man. shall surely be missing it presently. Do you remember how I was engraving.

bullets the other day in front of you? Well, it was just to do a big meme. Look. no further into that. Also, I shall now. misquote my own meme. Oo woo. Oh, wo. Probably makes [music] no difference. I apologize to involve you and for this. text [music] to be so short, but I am on. the lamb. >> In conclusion, I beg you keep this from. the prying eyes of the fuzz.

>> Pretty good, Viva, right? I mean, it's. it captures sort of what a lot of us are. like looking at like what what do you. mean? I'd hope to keep he says I'd hope. this take to take this to the grave and. yet here he is the same day of the. murder confessing it in multiple forms. I I still think I mean if you are a. revolutionary in your own mind and you. think of yourself as a hero and you're. in some sort of Shakespearean you know. suicide packed type love affair I I. could see you writing it like that. The. other the other element I forget who it.

I think it might have been Matt Walsh. who said at the time that this could. have been drafted as sort of like ask. chat GPT how to draft a text thread to. ex exonerate or not inculpate my friend. in this sort of like they did in. Breaking Bad when Walter White called up. his wife Skyler and you know called her. a and did that because he knew. that people were listening. So maybe. this is self- serving to get Lance Twigs. out of this. Um, but no, I I still don't. have difficulty believing that these. kids uh would would talk like that among. themselves and think of themselves as. heroes while murdering a man who truly.

was a hero. >> Right. Like Lance Twig's like, "It was. not you, was it?" It was indeed it was. I. Uh, let's just check back in on the. preliminary hearing. This just was. testified to by officer Badgely. Baggley, again, apologies, who um. remains on the stand. Listening. that there was a male individual on top. of the roof that. was there at the time of the shooting. >> Did they describe what his movements. were? >> They did. They stated that he ran to the.

edge, dropped down, crawled, uh got in a. prone position. Um. >> I'm going to stop you right there. Ran. to the edge. What direction and what. edge? >> Uh ran running west and southwest of the. Losi building. So ran towards the tent. of where Charlie Creek was so they could. get a line of sight. Um and then the. individual stood up after the shooting. and ran northeast on the top of the Losi. building. >> Okay. Um.

you mentioned that this individual on. the the video dropped off off the edge. Did you did you get that? I haven't. mentioned that. >> What happened? What what else was. described to you? >> Um then well at that moment so I knew. that there was possibly a sheer on on. the run. Your. >> honor, can we just have a. So Ashley, what we can hear him setting. up. They're going to say this is Tyler. Robinson and so on and so forth, but. what so what does the defense do with. that? Do they try to pick it apart or. does the fence know we're going to trial.

so we're not going to show any of our. cards here? It's like no questions. Or. do they realize this is a fight for. public opinion, too, and they do have to. do something? I think the best move for. the defense is to try to lock in some. testimony that they think that they can. use at trial. So, this is sort of a. pre-trial chance to lock in this. officer's testimony and also plant some. seeds if they are going for that. residual doubt. Plant some seeds, you. know, and kind of pick around the. corners. The problem is that this is a.

pretty solid case. I mean, not the. problem, but that's a problem for the. defense, obviously. You know, it's a. pretty solid case. And so, I think. they're going to have a hard time. actually coming at this officer with. anything difficult. They're just going. to need to pick around the corners and. hope that they can get something that. they can use later on. >> Yeah. I mean that everybody's got some. some tricky strategery to unleash uh as. they navigate through this. Guys, thank. you very much. Dviva is going to stay. with us. Dave and Ashley have got to go, but we are back with Mark Geragos and.

Matt Murphy on their thoughts on what. we've been seeing so far. As I said, we've got the best in the business right. here. [music] You won't hear them. And. these are actual trial lawyers in the. criminal law anywhere else. Our sponsor, the Electronic Payments Coalition, says. Washington politicians are always. getting in your wallet, which you know, and now they're messing with your credit. card, too. They say your credit card and. the security it offers are under attack. and that senators Dick Durban and Roger. Marshall want to change the nation's.

payment system to benefit corporate mega. stores like Walmart and Target at the. expense of everyday Americans. Credit. cards can keep your payments secure and. provide rewards that families use to. help make everyday purchases much more. affordable. We all love that. The. Electronic Payments Coalition says the. Durban Marshall mandates would let. corporate mega stores cut corners on. credit card processing, routing. transactions over cheaper, untested. networks with weaker security and fewer.

protections. Find out more about this. whole situation at guardyoucard.com. and consider telling Congress to guard. yourcard. Viva stays with us as [music] we monitor. day one of the Tyler Robinson. preliminary hearing, but we're also. going to bring in Mark Geragos and Matt. Murphy. Now, they're attorneys and hosts. of the Inthewell podcast. That's on our. MK media podcast network, which you can. find at mktrime.com. And wherever you get your podcast, if. you just type in in the well, it will.

come up or MK True Crime, multiple ways. of finding them. Guys, great to see you. Thanks for being here, Viva. Welcome. back to you. So, uh, they've just broken. for lunch, uh, in the hearing, but just. prior to doing that, they were finishing. up with this officer on the stand, and. he was being cross-examined by Katherine. Netor, who represented Corey Richens, the woman who killed her husband with. fentinel in his drink, and then did a.

world tour, not really, but a media tour. trying to promote her children's book, trying to teach children how to grieve. Well, in the loss of a parent, ridiculous. In any event, she didn't get. uh the that wife off, Cory Ridggins, but. now she's hoping that she can get Tyler. Robinson off. Um she was cross-examining. here on Well, let's just play the first. sound bite, Sat. >> Um. the machines you walk through at TSA in. the airport where it checks to see if.

you're carrying any anything metal, what. we all had to go through to get in the. courtroom. Were there any machines like. that set up or being used on campus that. day? >> No. >> And as far as you know, were there any. drones that were flying above campus. that day? >> Not that I know of. >> And did anyone ever talk to you about. covering anything near or on top of or. in the Losi building? Were you ever. signed that area before the shooting?

>> No. >> Do you know who was? I don't. >> And when you got up to the roof that. afternoon, [clears throat] was anybody around that. was law enforcement? >> No. >> Nobody on the roof? >> No. >> Nobody on the stairway? >> Nope. >> Nobody on the walkway? >> Nope. >> Okay. And in the state of Utah, are is a. campus a gun-free zone? Are students.

allowed to have guns on campus? >> It's an open car state, so yes. >> Interesting. Uh guys, thanks for being. here. Where where's she going with that? Uh Mark Garagos there. No mags, no. drones, no cops on the roof, inadequate protection is really what. she's arguing. >> Correct. And uh by the way, for those. who are conspiracy theorists, it fits. exactly into what uh many of the.

conspiracy theories are. And if you're. in a criminal case, all you need is one. person and one person to start asking. those questions. I don't understand why. this wasn't here. I don't understand why. that wasn't here. Unless somebody use um. as kind of a cutout or a proxy. So that. would be my guess as to where she's. going. She's certainly this is not a. civil case so to speak where you would.

be talking about liability for failure. to provide security. So, the kind of. logical, if you will, uh, if I were a. prosecutor, and I'll leave that for Matt. because God forbid that's the last thing. I'd ever want to be, is the the. prosecutor generally would be jumping up. and down, objecting to this, saying, "This is completely irrelevant. This is. a fishing expedition, and where are they. going with this? This isn't discovery. It's a probable cause hearing." How many.

times I've heard guys like Matt tell me. that. That makes a lot of sense, Matt, that. that that's what she's doing. Like. because if you believe that Tyler. Robinson was being used as a tool by. some other nefarious actor to pull the. trigger or that he may not have been the. trigger man and that this whole thing. was done in a different way. Maybe you. do want to establish, oh, security was.

conveniently missing from the scene that. day, right? Because like the whole you. can call it conspiracy theories, whatever. But the whole business of. conspiracy theory is you know better. You there's an inside job. There's. something happening that you don't. understand unless you're one of the. smart ones. And one of the things that's. been done is to remove security. apparatus from this from the roof from. the whatever such that the plan can. unfold. as as expected. And so, yeah, why else.

would this defense lawyer be going to. that place? >> Well, yeah. Um, I'm going to I'm going. to take a position here that I'm going. to uh probably contradict myself on. numerous times during the penalty of. this case. Um, you know, there are three. main areas of attack in the appellet. process, Megan. Um, they accuse the. judge of improper instruction. They they. accuse the prosecutor of uh. prosecutorial misconduct. and they will.

accuse the defense of what is known as. IA or ineffective assistance of counsel. So, um I think that some of this is just. checking the boxes. Um you know, and I. think we're going to see more of that uh. by her. Um I I think that's the the. generous interpretation of it. There's a. a thing known as the Dunning Krueger. effect that I know you're familiar with. and that is basically if you're really. stupid, how would you know it? And the. most interesting thing to me about. watching this preliminary hearing this.

morning are the comments. Um because it. is shocking how many people are buying. into the conspiracy theories and how. could it be this and and Mark's exactly. right. It's like the the the dream, the. home run is one of those loons um gets. on the jury and somehow hangs it up. And. I listened to the last segment. Dave. Aronberg, my friend, was uh was exactly. right on that. you know that they would. love to hang it um or establish some. sort of lingering doubt that's going to. carry over into the penalty phase. And.

remember this this is only a preliminary. hearing. The judge only has to make a. call um as a magistrate. That's the role. he's playing today. Although he is going. to be the trial judge as well. Um it's. just a probable cause hearing and by the. end of today there's probably going to. be enough probable cause to bind him. over which is which is going to happen. Here's. something else that was asked moments. ago. Just to set it up, Viva, there was. and we made reference to it uh earlier.

There was a man who was initially. detained by police as the suspect in. this case who we were later told has. nothing to do with this case. His name. is George Zinn. And here's just a little. bit about George Zinn that we now know. He has a lengthy criminal record in Utah. dating back decades. Um the better. documented prior cases include in the. 80s to the 20s numerous arrests and. convictions too for criminal trespass,

disorderly conduct, disrupting public. meetings and other misdemeanor offenses. to u tied to protests and political. events. Prosecutors describe him as a. frequent repeat offender rather than. someone known for violent felonies. 2013. Salt Lake City Marathon bomb threat. Days after the Boston Marathon bombing, Zinn asked race organizers whether they. needed help setting up bombs at the. marathon finish line. They treated it as. a threat. He was convicted, served a. year in prison. Mental health concerns.

Court records show uh the guy's got some. issues there. September, he falsely. confessed to shooting Charlie, resulting. in an obstruction of justice charge. after he admitted that he was just. trying to divert investigators. In 2025, child sexual abuse material um was. found, more than 20 images on his cell. phone after his detention. He pleaded. guilty to two counts of sexual. exploitation of a minor. All this is. very bad for this guy, George Zinn. One. does wonder what he was doing at the.

Charlie Kirka event in the first place, but you may recall this videotape of him. moments after the shooting. Watch. you.

>> For listening audience, it's police. pulling him away and putting him in a. squad car and people screaming and he. confessed and he said like he did it. That's George Zinn. Watch what happened. when Katherine Nester raised the issue. of George Zinn and this arrest with. officer Chris Bagley moments ago. >> It was your understanding the person.

they took into custody was close by Mr. Kirk. Is that right? >> Yep. >> But it didn't occur to you that well. that's not where I heard the shot come. from. They must have the wrong person. I. should talk to somebody. >> during the chaos moment. No, that's they. said they had person in custody. I. figured those guys saw something I. didn't see. They took the person in. custody and I thought that was him. >> Okay. >> Okay. So, that now we're getting more on. point, Viva, of trying to make the cops. look like idiots. You can't trust. anything they said or did around this.

case. Do you agree that's where she's. going? >> Well, I I think she's just going with. more is more for the defense. let them. say something that they can then argue. in the court of public opinion that they. can then use to have whoever is, you. know, promoting theories that Tyler. Robinson is innocent. You know, you can. have that fight in the court of public. opinion and potentially poison the jury. pool. Um, what I I don't have no. patience for that. What I don't. understand is people who think of other. theories like the exploding mic theory.

and they actually claim to sincerely. believe this despite any sort of. evidence. I can appreciate people saying. Tyler Robinson is a psy and they'll. attack the. >> Just just just hold that thought for one. second so I can tell people what you're. talking about. There there is a theory. on the internet that Charlie wasn't shot. by this 306 or any other gun that the. people who believe this was a planned. assassination by some other nefarious. group had put a mic on Charlie that. exploded and it made his shirt puff out.

and his necklace puff out and then I. guess residual shrapnel. injured his neck. But that this was a. planned assassination. that in which the mic exploded and. killed him as opposed to this gun. Go. ahead. >> Correct. Yes. I I presume everybody was. familiar with that. But you know the. people who want to say Tyler Robinson. couldn't have done it because a 300 6. doesn't behave like that whatever that. means. Uh and that they have to find. some other conspiracy theory. What I.

think the defense is doing right now is. just get them to say more that would. allow, you know, the people out there. promoting these ideas to pick holes in. it, find contradictions. Oh, you said. there were no drones, but yet uh. Charlie's team flew a drone early on in. the event. So, if they were forbidden, how did the team fly these drones? This. is all not to uh, you know, contradict. the preliminary hearing. There will be. probable cause, period, full stop. I. think they're just getting as much as. they can out there to muddy the waters. between now and the trial. And and I. just want you I want to flesh one thing.

out also. George Zinn, people need to. understand just how wild a coincidence, if it's unrelated, that you have an old. man with child sexual abuse material on. his phone causing a distraction so that. the shooter can get away and people want. to entertain what I think are untenable. conspiracy theories. How about just ask. some legitimate questions? I put it out. on Twitter a while back. You know, who. was on these Discord chats? Did George. Zinn know something was going to happen. there? There were people who posted in. advance that something big was going to. happen at the event. We still don't have.

answers to those questions. Whether or. not the defense is going to say he was a. psy, but he was, you know, brainwashed. by people online, we'll see. There are. legitimate questions that have not yet. been answered. George Zinn being there. taking credit for it so that the shooter. could get away then getting caught with. CSAM on his phone. I would love to know. if George Zinn had anything to do with. any of the Discord chats in advance. He's an old man in, you know, with child. sexual abuse material. He might be. somehow anonymously involved in discord. chats involving the furry community. And.

these are the questions that have not. yet been answered that don't exonerate. Tyler Robinson, but might be indicative. of a broader conspiracy implicating. others who were told for the time being. no one else was involved. It was just. Tyler Robinson. >> That's very fair. Uh because the Discord. messages, I read the some of the text. messages between Tyler and Lance Twigs. alleged earlier. Here's some of the. Discord messages. Again, it's like this. gamer website where they both. participated. Um, this is from a. Washington Post article from September.

15th of 25. The 22-year-old suspect. appears to have confessed to friends in. an online chat shortly before turning. himself into law enforcement. Hey guys, I have bad news for you all, read a. message from an account belonging to the. suspect, Tyler Robinson, on Discord. It. was me at UVU yesterday. I'm sorry for. all of this. It was sent Thursday night. about two hours before officials said. Robinson was taken into custody. Charlie. was killed on a Wednesday. A me member. of the group chat shared an image of the. conversation with the post. Discord. provided a copy of the message with the.

confession to authorities. Uh the. message was sent from Robinson's account. to a small private group of online. friends. Uh the Discord conversation. shared with the post shows members of. the group chat reacting to Kirk shooting. Wednesday before the news broke that. Robinson was allegedly involved. The. group had about 30 people and uh. somebody wrote Charlie Kirk got shot. I. just saw the video. Holy Ro did. not deserve to go out like that. Sad. The only response from Robinson's. account came the next day, Thursday, with a message announcing quote bad news.

that I just read. It goes on to say to. read, "I'm surrendering through a. sheriff friend in a few moments." That. was posted at 7:57 p.m. local time on. Thursday in Utah. It continued, "Thanks. for all the good times and laughs. You've all been so amazing. Thank you. all for everything. Robinson was taken. into custody two hours later at 10 p.m. that night per the FBI director Cash. Patel. Um let's see. One friend the they. said no one responded to Robinson that. night, but but the next day one friend.

wrote that the apparent confession. seemed to be true. The friend asked. group members to quote pray for Tyler. and his repentance. The New York Times. reported on a conversation in a. different Discord chat group earlier the. same day. In that conversation, Robinson. joked that a doppelganger was trying to. get him in trouble after law enforcement. released images of the shooting suspect. um who resembled Robinson. Utah Governor. Spencer Cox confirmed the existence of.

that conversation, later saying that. Robinson's friends did not believe it. was actually him. CBS News added, "At. least three friends asked Robinson if he. was the shooter, saying the photos. relief released by the FBI sure did look. a lot like him. He did not seem to. refute it." Um, and then in one. exchange, the sources said a friend. appeared to tease Robinson, joking he. should avoid McDonald's. That's where. Luigi Manion was arrested after he. killed allegedly United Healthcare CEO.

um the the United Healthcare CEO. And. then the account appearing to belong to. Robinson responded, "Better also get rid. of this manifesto and exact copy rifle I. have lying around." So all of that is. going to come in the Discord messages. And you know, Mark, you tell me as a. defense lawyer, when you've got that, you got that in writing on Discord in. addition to the text messages, weird. though they may sound, to the lover, Lance Twigs, um, and the alleged letter.

that he left for Lance Twigs, which I. believe we'll hear Lance Twigs testify. about in his video statement. How you. deal with that? Well, you know, I always. I say it somewhat jokingly, but it on. the square that probable cause uh. hearings are basically are is my client. breathing? I say that with. coming on the heels last week of doing a. murder prelim and the judge actually.

special circumstance dismissed two of. the defendants. So kudos to her and and. caveat to my uh usual uh glib line. What. you deal with here is precisely what our. other guests just detailed. the fact. that there just so happens to be. somebody who obviously has issues, mental health challenges at the to say. the very least, who happens to be there.

at the exact same time, who then get. >> and gets arrested, who then confesses, it would be to Matt's point about. ineffective assistance of counsel. If. you're the defense lawyer and you do not. plumb that area and flesh that out and. do everything possible, you're going to. get an ineffective assistance to. counsel. That is more than just a. coincidence. Questions have to be asked. about that and rightfully so. even if.

you think they've got everything that. they need to tie this up in a bow and. certainly there there there's no. question that there's he's going to be. held to answer in a probable cause. proceeding. At the same time, the the. standard at a convict for a conviction. is beyond a reasonable doubt. It's. worlds and universes away from probable. cause. And there are some serious. questions as to what happened here. When. you ask an officer.

like she did, that was a perfectly. legitimate line of questioning here. You. guys thought nobody thought that they. arrested a guy in an area where the. sound didn't come from. They that by the. way, when you arrest somebody, guess. what your standard is? Your standard is. something akin to probable cause. So. that is a the a perfectly viable and. legitimate area of inquiry for her to be. investigating. Frankly, I'm a little.

surprised that the officer didn't have. more of a um wholesome response to that. to because anybody who was sentient. would have known that was coming. So Matt, in other words, what we're. seeing the defense set up here perhaps, though not explicitly, is Charlie was a. sitting duck. There was not a drone in. the sky to look after him. There was not. a cop on the roof to make sure that the.

roof was secure. And everybody knows. that that's a thing because when Charlie. was killed, it was 14 months post post. butler and the Trump assassination. attempt that he he that there were no. magnetometers, that he was exposed, entirely exposed. And then when shots rang out, you found. it entirely plausible as law enforcement. that they came from the front of the. arena, not the back, not a rooftop. you. believed this guy George Zinn and his.

confession and had no problem arresting. him for the crime and it's it is sort of. quietly setting up, you know, the. possibility of somebody else was behind. this whole thing because we're going to. get to they have three forensic experts. the defense does that they plan on. calling and I'm sure one of them is. going to be talking about how that. bullet was not able to be conclusively. matched to the gun of Tyler Robinson. that 30 odd six I know. I know. We We. talked in the last hour about how that.

doesn't mean it wasn't, but it would be. certainly better for the prosecution if. they had a match, and they they don't. >> Yeah. Two things on that, Megan. Number. one, I really like Viva's comments about. um the idea of other people being. involved. You know, you can we see that. all the time. You can have 20 other. people involved in this case, and it. might even be true. But the the question. is, does that ameliorate or does that. somehow mitigate Tyler Robinson's. involvement? The answer to that is. almost certainly no. at least in the. guilt phase. Maybe that comes out in the. penalty phase. Um, but you know this.

going back to the bullet, this is one of. those things that's been driving me. crazy, Megan, this this whole time. The. defense filed a brief where they. basically suggested to the world that. the bullet didn't match. Okay. And they. and I've got the quote written down, but. they they write that that's something. the defense can do, whatever. And the. prosecution came out and they got in. trouble because they they not only said. um it was inconclusive, but um they went. on TMZ with Mark's buddy Harvey Leven.

who got him in trouble and he said, "We. are very confident in the rest of our. evidence." And the judge said that that. violated the. >> um you know the the the bounds of the. court order and he kind of slapped him. on the wrist and he said, "But we're not. going to dump the death penalty on. that." the the the best way I think to. think about this bullet. This was a this. was a large bullet that um that. fragmented upon entry. Okay? And I don't. know if this was a frangible round. They. haven't made that public yet. But there. are certain bullets that are designed to. disintegrate. Um some are used for.

hunting. Um they call them varmint. rounds. I've never heard of a 306. varmmer round, but they must exist. And. that's never been made public. The best. way to think of it, Megan, is like if. you have a murder scene and you have the. killer who picked up um like a wine. glass, for example, and you know that. there's a fingerprint on the wine glass. and then the wine glass shatters into a. million pieces, you're going to get an. inconclusive result for that, too. And a. bullet is is similar the way they do the. ballistic comparisons. Um that's kind of. how that works. You can't get a a.

fingerprint off shattered glass. What. nobody's really been talking about um is. that there are more than one ways. There's more than one way to. ballistically match a firearm. Um and. one of them is with expended shell. casings. And he cycled um he cycled the. the casing. The casing found at the. scene matched the rifle. Okay. So. there's it's not just the bullet. And. that rifle has his DNA on the trigger. So there's plenty of forensic evidence. And Megan, you're exactly right. One of.

these experts is going to say exactly. that. I examined it and that wasn't the. bullet and it couldn't have been it. couldn't have been fired from that gun. We're going to see something like that. either at this phase or in trial. >> By the way, the defense is going to come. right back and they're going to say, "Of. course, his DNA is on that gun. He used. that gun before. That was a gun from his. house. And of course, there are casings. that match it because he wasn't the one. who planted the casings. somebody else. threw the casings there. If you've got.

George Zinn who's uh over there. confessing and at the front just. coincidentally, you think it's a long. stretch to have somebody throw some. casings. I mean, none of that. I get the. fact that the inconclusive bullet is. something that people have run with, but. I promise you that the prosecution, and you know this, Matt, the that's why. he went on to TMZ. He was worried. He is. worried that the the the the public has.

taken that and run with it. And that is. that's a significant significant. uh doubt the if if you get a B. By the. way, as you know, if you've got a battle. of the experts, what do jurors do with. that? I can't tell you how many times. they tell me, "Oh, I we discounted the. experts and we didn't come to that. conclusion." So, >> yeah, it's exactly right. >> I mean, it'd be a lot it'd be a lot more. helpful for the defense if they didn't. have the alleged confessions, you know,

the the text messages to Lance Twigs, the Discord messages, and whatever he. may or may not have said to police. Um, be a lot more helpful if they just had a. bullet that couldn't be conclusively. matched, but they have more than that. I. will show you this soundbite from Rob. O'Neal, who I adore. And he is, of. course, a former Navy Seal sniper who. not only shot Osama bin Laden in the. face, um, but has been on some of our.

most daring and dangerous missions as. part of Seal Team 6 for the past 20 plus. years prior to his retirement. And. here's what he said. This this is not he. has no dog in this hunt. And this is. what he said about this this wound on. Charlie and this gun. >> Just for me, I mean, it it it was off it. right from the beginning for me. It from. uh do we not guard rooftops anymore? There's been assassinations, assassination attempts all over the. world. Why aren't we looking at.

rooftops? >> Uh and then when I was sent the I was. sent the video with this at the same. message where they said Charlie Kirk was. just shot. When I watched that horrific. video, he was obviously dead before he. hit the ground. But the questions. immediately started to come to me. That. was but that was not an entry wound that. we saw. We saw an exit wound. So where'd. that bullet come from? You don't bleed. like and I've shot guys closer than the. camera was. Uh and an an exit an entry. wound doesn't look like that. An exit. wound does. >> I could play you 20 videos like that.

from gun experts. >> Yeah, I I love that guy too, Megan. I. can tell you right now he's wrong. I. watched that video. That's an arterial. bleed from a from an entry wound. They. they recovered the entire bullet on the. inside just in it's heavily fragmented. and damaged. So, love him. I think he's. an American hero. He's dead wrong on. that one. And he's never he's never. tried or presented this this type of. evidence in front of a jury or slogged. through. >> expert. I'm glad to hear you disagree. I. that's what that's what we're here for. But what what about Matt? You've heard,

you know, many people believe that that. a 30 odd six and that that gun and that. that level bullet would never have not. had an entry an exit wound. That the. fact that, you know, there was this. alleged surgeon who said, "Oh, Charlie's. got like a Supermanlike spine. You know, he was so strong that his bone stopped. it. That's why there wasn't an exit. wound." And many people just said. immediately, "That's utter. that we don't believe that.

>> Mark Aragos, my friend, has seen. probably more. more autopsies than I have after 17. years in homicide. Bullets do weird. things and this thing fragmented. They. they recovered the whole thing. And when. you hit bones, bullets break apart. And. I don't care if it's a 30 odd six. That's the thing. They never released. what kind of ammunition it was, but this. was an this was an antique rifle. if. this was antique ammo to boot. Um, you. know, who knows? But they there there is.

no mystery here other than speculation. and kind of nonsense. I mean, you see. this all the time in homicide cases, Megan, where sometimes the bullets go. right through and it looks like they're. pristine. Sometimes they will hit a bone. and shatter and stay inside. Sometimes. little rounds, spin around, um, bank all over the place inside a. human body. You know, we part of our. used to go watch the autopsies on our. homicides, and it's it is you'd be.

amazed the things that different bullets. will do. And there we go. That's a. that's a Mouser was a Mouser 98. That is. a a a rifle that was designed well over. 100 years ago. It's still that and. that's a really old one, but they still. make those because it's it's a simple. design and it works. But ammunition, depending on the ammunition, they design. certain rounds to break apart to shoot. coyotes. It's literally called vermin. ammunition. And there's no, you know, it's not like they got in there and. didn't, you know, couldn't account for. the weight or the grains. Apparently,

it's all inside his body. It hit his. spine. Um Viva is right. He was dead. instantly or or um very close to it, thank God. But um but yeah, this is the. kind of stuff that the conspiracy. theories and these are a bunch of people. who um who haven't haven't witnessed. autopsies, haven't seen it, bullets. pulled out of human bodies before. And. uh the only person who might have seen. more of them than me is probably my. friend Mark Geros right there at the.

bottom. And. >> do you agree with him, Matt, Mark? >> Yeah, the the Matt's as usual is spot. on. the the issue of what a bullet will. do. In fact, I have I have. cross-examined I can't tell you how many. ballistics experts and when they talk. about, you know, they shoot bullets into. water. They shoot bullets, you should. see how they testify as to how they um. test guns and how they test casings and.

things of that nature. And I have used. exactly what Matt has said as a as. fodder for cross-examination, saying, "By the way, lay the foundation. Have you ever been to an autopsy? Have. you seen what bullets do?" For you to. say that you can try to recreate it by. shooting it into a a long trough of. water or something else is just complete. utter nonsense because they it's almost. as if I've actually had ballistics. experts uh admit to me that bullets have.

a mind of their own. I mean they they. I've actually had that statement um uh. repeated back to me on. cross-examination. That doesn't mean, however, that the defense is going to. not run with that. The defense has an. obligation to run with that. The defense. has an absolute duty, zealous advocacy. to kind of plum the depths of that. because God only knows what is going on.

here. I mean, this has not been uh I. think Matt would probably admit if this. were he wouldn't admit that he's ever. had this situation down in Orange. County, but he probably if I was out. with him at Crime Con in Vegas would. admit that he has chastised. investigators uh for doing stuff like. this before because this is not um. you're not. >> What do you mean doing stuff like what? >> This is not a primer on a really good. investigation. number one. And I I don't.

want to be the armchair quarterback. second-guing, but this the this once. again has all the earmarks of some. people in over their head, at least. initially. There's a lot of things that. were done here that I think are going to. come out during this preliminary hearing. and the defense is going to bring out as. to what investigators did or didn't do. >> Megan, I. >> I want to hear more on that, but Viva, I. want you to weigh in. Well, I when I.

hear people say this is, you know, a 300. 6 would always leave an exit wound. It's. impossible, inconceivable that it. wouldn't. And then I say Martin Luther. King Jr. and then you people then people. like, well, I don't believe that report. either because you're believing fed slop. if you believe that that bullet actually. killed Martin Luther King. So you're. having an argument with people who who. basically push unfalsifiable theories. where if you say it always leaves an. exit wound, there's probably a few. soldiers from World War II that can. testify that a 306 doesn't always leave.

an exit wound. Then you say Martin. Luther King got shot in the face. And if. they believe it, they say, "Oh, well. that hit his jawbone." Okay, so a. jawbone can stop it, but not a spine uh. or sp well not the spinal cord, but not. the spine uh bones. Uh, and then you. say, "Well, I don't believe the Martin. Luther King got shot in the face with. the 3006 either, so therefore I stand by. my it could never have been a 300 6.". Anybody saying that, and I'm not a gun. expert. I'm not an ammunition's expert. by any means. I was a lawyer for 13. years. My question has always been, do. you know the condition of the ammo? If.

you don't know the condition of the. ammo, you are not in a position to. definitively say how the ideal ammo. would perform and what it would do to a. human body. And and I I think I don't. know if we all know Chris Martinson. He's done great work on CO. He's looking. into this quite a bit. I had him on the. channel and I say, you know, hypothetically, if that if that. projectile is tumbling when it hits the. body, who knows what it does. At a lower. angle, it dives down. And you know, Chris, in in all honesty said, yeah, I. guess if it's a fouled bore, if the. rifle hasn't been maintained, if it's.

old ammunition, you know, it's. conceivable that the round is tumbling. by the time it hits Charlie in the neck. and hits the spine and goes down. It's. conceivable. we're talking about, you. know, what are the odds? Until there's. evidence to support anything other than. this. It it takes a great deal of. audacity to write this off and say this. is not how a bullet behaves when it's. behaved like this in the past. Martin. Luther King, if you don't believe that, fine. But you don't know this, the. condition of the ammo. You're not in any. position to say definitively what the. bullet would or would not have done to a. human body.

>> That's right. I I mean, personally, I. like I can't get past the fact that if. you if I'm the defense, I can poke a lot. of holes into the this wasn't the gun. that this was the gun. I I can poke. holes into that. I I maybe I can. convince a jury this was not the gun or. they they can't prove it beyond a. reasonable doubt that this was the gun. and this was Tyler Robinson's ammo. But. then I get to the written confession in. the text messages to the trans furry. lover. Okay, those sound weird. Maybe.

you find a jury that's like, "It doesn't. sound like normal Gen Zers. Like, I. don't buy that." But you're going to. have the metadata. You're going to have. an expert. The the prosecution is going. to know that there are doubts about. those text messages, and they are going. to shore up any doubts about them coming. from anything other than Tyler. Robinson's phone and Lance Twig's phone. and try to convince us that absolutely. it was those two. And then on top of. that, there's a note that Tyler.

allegedly left for Lance underneath the. keyboard um that that also it was in. advance of the shooting saying, "If. you're reading this, I'm either dead or. I'm facing a long prison sentence. I'm. sorry, but I had to do it." And then on. top of that, the night that Tyler. Robinson was arrested, Matt, you have. him speaking to his parents allegedly. saying, "I just I'm gonna end it all.". like allegedly confessing to the parents. and saying, "I'm going to end it all.".

And then the parents, here's how it was. it was reported, okay, at the time. Um, this is from the criminal information, the the basically the the the charging. document against him. They say on the. evening of September 11th, this is. Thursday, the day after the murder. As. law enforcement continued their. investigation, Robinson went to the. Washington County Sheriff's Office with. his parents and a family friend who's. going to become relevant to turn himself. in. His mother stated the following to. cops on September 11th, the day after. the shooting. She saw a photo of the.

shooter in the news. She thought it. looked like her son. She called her son, asked him where he was. He said. homesick. And that he'd also been. homesick the day before the day of the. shooting. The mom expressed concern to. her husband that the suspected shooter. looked like Robinson. The father agreed. First of all, that's all admissible. All. of that is admissible and will likely. come in. Um, his mother explained that. over the last year or so, Robinson had. become much more political and started. to lean more to the left, becoming more. progay, more trans rights oriented. She. said that Robinson began to date his his. roommate, a biological male who was.

transitioning genders. This resulted in. several discussions with family members, especially between Robinson and his. father, who have very different. political views. And one convo before. the shooting, Robinson mentioned Charlie. Kirk would be holding an event at UVU, which Robertson Robinson said was a. stupid venue. Robinson accused Kirk of. spreading hate. That's the exact term. allegedly used by Robinson to the. transfery lover. Some hate can't be. negotiated out. Robinson's father. reported that when his wife showed him. the surveillance image of the suspected. shooter in the news, he agreed it looked.

like their son. So, that in and of. itself is evidence. Both parents, Matt, are looking at the now un as of now. unidentified. uh picture of the shooter. Just the. shooter. That's all we know. And both. are like, "Holy that's our boy.". So that that's all admissible. And then. we get to he also believed the dad that. the rifle the police suspected the. shooter used matched a rifle that was. given to his son as a gift. As a result, the father contacted his son and asked. him to send a photo of the rifle. This.

is him saying, "Do you have it on you. right now? Because I'm seeing the cops. have one that looks an awful lot like. the one I gave you from grandpa." Um. Robinson did not respond. However, Robinson's father spoke on the phone. with Robinson. Robinson implied that he. planned to take his own life. His. parents were able to convince him to. meet at their home. As they discussed. the situation, Robinson implied implied. he was the shooter and stated that he. could not go to jail. He just wanted to. end it. When asked why he did it,

Robinson explained there's too much evil. and that guy Charlie Kirk spreads too. much hate. They talked about Robinson. turning himself in and convinced. Robinson to speak with a family friend. who was a retired deputy sheriff. At. Robinson's father's request, the family. friend met with Robinson and his parents. and convinced Robinson to turn himself. in. The family friend spoke to police, reported telling Robinson that it would. be best if he brought all evidence with. him to the sheriff's office to avoid. police having to search his parents'.

home. That family friend also asked. Robinson if he had any clothes that were. related to what he did. Robinson replied. that he had disposed of the clothes in. different areas. So, they don't use the. word confession in here, Matt, but my. god, that's a lot of circumstantial ev. how you describe that, but that's a lot. of very, very good evidence for the. prosecution that the family knew it was. him. He didn't deny it. He talked about. wanting to kill himself. He didn't say, "What evidence would I have when turning.

myself in?" I didn't do it, friend of. family, former deputy sheriff. In fact, instead he said, "I got rid of it." This. guy and the two parents can absolutely. be called. They're not on the witness. list for prelim preliminary hearing, but. they're coming to trial to show this. jury he he confessed or didn't deny and. came right up close to a confession to. virtually everyone. >> Well, every murder case um is like a. collage, Megan. Every murder trial, it's.

a bunch. as many different pieces as you. you can put together um as a prosecutor. and then having the jury take a step. back and consider every piece of. evidence in light of everything else. And you're absolutely right. Um I know I. know Mark is listening to that. Um often. times uh the best evidence that you have. as a as a homicide prosecutor is. statements from the defendant to friends. to family. Now we have the whole world. of text messages. And when you add it.

all up on this, you're absolutely right, Megan. This is overwhelming. Um I think. and I'm interested in Mark's thoughts on. this and and Vivas too. The this case. really in my view is all about the. penalty phase. It's important to. remember that in Utah, it's just like. California. Every trial like this is. bifurcated. You have the guilt phase. where all this evidence is going to be. presented and then you have the penalty. phase where the jury is going to be. tasked with considering the aggravating. versus mitigating factors. And one of.

the challenges for really good defense. lawyers like Mark Geros in the guilt. phase is how much of your credibility. you want to risk by arguing fanciful. conspiracy theories or all that because. when a jury goes through the evidence. and you've stood up and if you lean too. hard into kind of the some of the crazy. stuff, you you tend to blow a lot of. credibility in in the penalty phase when. it really matters. And in Utah, they. have an actual death penalty unlike. California where it's it's basically.

symbolic or other states. Um Utah and. this guy, they go through the 10th. Circuit Court of Appeal, I think, Mark, if I'm not mistaken, 10th Circuit, which. is not the Ninth Circuit. Um this guy, he is actually facing the death penalty. on this. And and I think that that's one. of the interesting things about this. tactically. Um because if you go too. hard on nonsense, um that jury may not. believe you when you get up and you. argue mitigating factors, um you know,

mental illness, love for this other guy, whatever's going on in his head, the. juryy's going to get to consider that. Um whether that carries the day or not, that's really the way I see this whole. case. Um is this are they going to are. they going to vote death or not? I think. that's the ultimate question. Mark, how. how would you see it if you if you're. looking at the Discord messages, the. text messages, again, alleged, the. alleged letter left under the keyboard. in advance, the alleged conversations. with Tyler Robinson and his parents, the. alleged conversations between Tyler.

Robinson and this family friend who's a. retired former sheriff. Um, h how how hard do you go on this is not. the guy? >> This is why um as much as I love him, I. hated going up against Matt. umly. because he understood the kinds of. tactical decisions. One of the uh let me. give you just a little bit. One of the. the things that um uh addages is it's a.

rare case for the defense that gets. better after the prosecution rests, which means you don't want to ever call. your client. the the first cousin of. that is the worst thing that you and one. of the reasons you don't want to call. your client is because the jury's f. focus goes immediately to what did the. client say. It doesn't matter what Matt. put on. It's what did the what is the. client say? That is what they're laser. focused on. If you don't put the client. on, then you've got to deal with the.

text messages. all of the um items that. lead up to um and that are basically. portrayed by the prosecution as the. client's statements. If you can deal. with that, if there's a way to thread. that needle and say, "Well, he was. implication or he thought he had a. doppelganger, whatever that might be, the most devastating piece of evidence. that you're going to have to deal with. in this case is what you and Matt both. referred to, which is the the close.

family relatives." Now, I will say with. a caveat that in Luigi's case, for. instance, the parents have come out and. publicly said what law enforcement is. saying we said, the parents, we being. Luigi's parents, is false. We never said. that. I haven't seen that here in this. case. But if you've got the parents. testifying against their son, that is. about as heavy a lift as a defense. lawyer as you're ever going to have. And.

to Matt's point, you do not absolutely. do not want to squander whatever. goodwill, whatever credibility or. authenticity you have with the jury. trying to run away from that and then. have to stand up in the penalty phase. and say, "Oh, by the way, just kidding. in that guilt phase. You should he did. have uh remorse. He wanted to kill. himself." Blah, blah, blah. You got to. believe that. I was just joking before. That never plays out. that never ends.

well. >> Oh, that's so tricky. Go ahead, Viva. >> No, I was just going to say like people. don't see the people who are saying. Tyler Robinson's innocent or there's a. lack of evidence don't seem to be. appreciating what's out there. And it's. not just, you know, the parents, the. text messages, the the video of him. running across the roof and jumping off. The day of, I remember watching live. streams where immediately after the shot. occurred, the person with the camera. panned over to the area where they. thought the shot came from. Not to say. he's dead to rights. He's he'll have a. trial. If it comes out at trial that the.

text messages were falsified or altered, that the Discord chat was manufactured. You know, then you can say, well, now I. question everything and anything in this. case by way of the other evidence. His. parents have not come out and said he's. innocent. Why are you prosecuting my. boy? I mean, that is what you'd think a. parent would say if the reports of them. turning their son in or identifying. their son were false. But, you know, barring something outrageous during the. trial, like it comes up that the feds.

somehow concocted the text messages to. frame a guilty man, uh, you know, this. trial is going to go the exact way we. all think it's going to go. And then the. only question is going to be, are you. going to get one individual out there. who says not necessarily, I believe. Israel did it with an exploding lapel, mic, but it could have been someone. else, and I'm not comfortable sending. Tyler uh to a death penalty or to jail. for life. >> So, well said. Very very good framing. there. The. you know we we haven't addressed all of.

the messages online from what I'm. calling Transifa. You know like there. there were messages from people online. saying something terrible is going to. happen to Charlie Kirk on September. 10th. Wait until you see. And then after. he was killed the equivalent of told you. multiple. We've never heard a follow-up. from the FBI on that. that they they've. never I asked Cash Patel about that. myself and he said it was under. investigation and then we never heard.

anything and that I just feel like that. has got to be answered in some way, shape or form. Like I that was. widespread. Most people will remember. that as I say it. So what how do you. handle that as a prosecutor? >> Well, number one, I it it is it's. disturbing and some of that stuff uh. that came out right at the very. beginning and it is odd and and in the. way of a a caveat. Um, you know, good. for Lance Twigs for cooperating. Um, he. doesn't appear to have been a part of.

any of that. So, um, good for Lance. Twigs. Okay, that said, this is. something that you do encounter as a. prosecutor. You'll have one defendant. sitting there. This is like my Daniel. Waznjak case, for example, um, where. this guy murdered his um, his neighbor, his war hero neighbor to get out his. combat pay. um and then murdered a a. young woman named Julie Kiwishi in the. dead guy's apartment because he murdered. him someplace else in order to frame the. guy he'd already murdered so that.

everybody will be chasing after him. It. was absolutely diabolical. But that was. really the claim of the defense was that. um Daniel Wasnak's fiance Rachel Buffett. had to have been involved. She had to. know. She had to know. And as a. prosecutor eventually, that was the. death penalty case. And you stand up and. you go, "Okay, great. Let's say um. everything he just said is right. Let's. say she was up to her eyeballs and there. wasn't evidence supporting that. But. let's say she was up to her eyeballs in. it. All that means is she should be. sitting at council table right next to. him. That doesn't lessen his guilt or.

his involvement in any way. And all of. those people could have been involved. They could have been helping. There's no. evidence to support that right now. There's certainly evidence that I'm that. came out that indicates that people knew. about it. Maybe he was bragging about. it. Maybe he was telling people ahead of. time. But great, so we could line up 25. chairs next to his. It doesn't lessen. his individual guilt. And that's the way. you handle it. It's it's like awesome. Conspiracy theories, run a muck, super. Let's take all of that. Let's let's say.

every bit of it is true. How does that. lessen his moral culpability or his. legal culpability for what the evidence. shows he did? That's how you deal with. it. And and I. >> I know you've you've done some coverage. on this, too. Your thoughts on it? No, sorry me. I I was just looking up online. because it it is it's to the point where. like I I'm questioning my own sanity and. my own memory. I remember at the time. there were posts that said something big. is going to happen at Utah. Pay. attention. And you go to Grock now and.

you ask that question and it gives you a. a wishy-washy answer. And I put that. question out there publicly to the FBI. as well. Not that they listen to me or. follow me, but like it if it didn't. happen, then the public memory should be. corrected. But it happened. And the. question is. >> it happened. >> It happened. And now and the question is. this, what's going on with that? People. say, well, they can't comment on an. ongoing investigation. To which I say, hogwash. You don't wait for every. individual involved in a scheme to be. convicted before you investigate others.

involvement in that scheme. I was just going to say what a copout to. say um you know it's an ongoing. investigation because if you don't think. that the defense has already hired a way. back machine what we call the wayback. machine has preserved a way but through. subpoenas to get the pre-existing. uh talk about something big is going to. happen. uh it would be malpractice per. se, ineffective assistance for the.

defense not to show that. And by the. way, if you can show that and if you can. show also to your point uh that the fact. that there's been some kind of concerted. effort somewhere to erase those things. Boy, doesn't that play right into the. idea that if you can't trust what you. what you saw with your own eyes, how are. you now going to trust what the. prosecution is presenting to you and. telling you to just believe kind of.

unfailingly in terms of text messages or. anything else. It's a version of garbage. in, garbage out. to to that point. I just want to say. that the cross-examination, the bit of. it we saw of her with officer Bagley. talking about how there were no mags, there was no drone to patrol the sky and. there was no one on the roof. I mean, I. do think she's also laying the. foundation for when Charlie's security. team takes the stand if not at the. preliminary hearing at the trial to say.

this these guys were utter failures and. you can't believe a one word they say. This is not Megan Kelly's opinion. This. is, you know, that she. >> right that she's going to get up there. and say like they they have a reason to. to mislead because they blame themselves. and they should. That's what she's going. to say. Um I do want to refresh the. audience with the following. This is. just a piece of what we know on the. about the online communications around. Charlie's death. an online friend of.

Lance Twigs, the the furry boyfriend, uh, who goes by Cherbam75, wrote after Charlie was killed, "Charlie. Kirk deserved that Let it die. Let. it die." Uh, and then we did it. Right. So, that is a friend of Lance. Twigs, the transfery lover of Charlie. Ker, forgive me, of Tyler Robinson, saying, "We did it. We. did it." Another account, a person who. goes by Osamu bin Tazuka, 5 days before.

the shooting, September 5th. You guys, I. have something big in all caps coming. soon. Just be sure to check the news. You You will know it when you see it. Emoji given giving a wink. Then on. Wednesday at 4:52 p.m. after the murder, well, that's that. Another Chud bites. the dust. An exac account called Mushy. The ex handle is Tally Hal album. It has. since been deleted. Um, but the first. Kirk tweet was September 3rd, seven days.

before the murder. It'd be funny if. someone like Charlie Kirk got shot on. September 10th, laughing my ass off, followed up by another one on September. 11th. Did it. So, okay, you know, you can dismiss this, but it's. very strange that there's so many. predicting doom and gloom, then claiming. credit for it, and at least one of them. is directly connected to the lover of.

the accused shooter. And you know, back. to the theory of the text messages are. not some nefarious third party or the. FBI making up fake text exchange. confessions. It's actually two. co-conspirators. to take the credit away from Lance. Twigs, Matt, and re-evaluate the. thinking as maybe Lance Twigs was a. co-conspirator and is just saving his. own ass in talking with and dealing with.

police now because he was in on it. Some. of the people in this Discord group were. in on it, knew it was going to happen, celebrated it. It's possible they knew. George Zinn, the 72 or three year old. guy who said he did it and distracted. the cops. Like, we don't know how wide. this goes, but it does disturb me. I'm. not really into I I I, as the audience. knows, I got my criticisms of Israel and. I know that Charlie was under a lot of. pressure from his Jewish donors at. Turning Point because he told me that.

and it's written down in his own text. messages. Um, but I am much more focused. on this Transifa group group. um when it. comes to this crime because I do believe. that Tyler Robinson pulled the trigger. and my only real question is who else if. anyone knew about it and said nothing. Who wants to take that? >> Well, Lance Twigs. um he would be a horrible criminal um if. he was or horrible co-conspirator on. this because remember the note. underneath the keyboard came from him.

He didn't he didn't follow Tyler. Robinson's instructions to delete the. text messages and he could have done all. that um and didn't. So that's where I'm. coming from on that. And and like Mark. and I'm sure Viva too, we've seen so. many cases where somebody who is. involved in something like this will. destroy evidence and even even if. they're not involved ahead of time as. accessories after the fact, especially. for people that they're in love with or. that have they have some sort of. romantic bond. You see that all the. time, case after case after case. the.

girlfriend who's trying to cover for the. guy or the parent burying the body. I. mean, you see that so many times that um. I mean, it seems like Lance Twigs had. the opportunity to do it. That would be. my response. That's somebody that that. even given my background that I I could. defend in a case like this. The furry. world, Megan, and I know Mark has seen. this. I I don't know if uh if Viva has. ever dealt with it before. It is one of. the most bizarre. communities. Um I I there were a couple. of really vicious murder cases in Orange. County that we dealt with out of the.

furry community. Um and it's it's it's a. whole um sideshow of of weirdness. Um. but I think. >> but but but the but the weird thing. about I mean the tricky thing about. Lance Twigs being a furry is normally. it' be the defense attorney who would. raise that like you're into the furry. community, aren't you Mr. Twigs? Like. that's your thing. It's not enough to be. a so-called transgender, but you also. think you're this whatever kind of. animal, half human, h what whatever. floats your boat. But how does that help.

them, Mark, to do that to Lance Twigs? Because Tyler Robinson was his lover. I. mean, just as weird as Lance Twigen, it. allurs to Tyler Robinson, too. That's. what he was into. So I have no special. knowledge um or anything else that's. being reported but based on what's being. reported if I would bet you couple of. donuts that the defense has explored the.

idea that he was lured into this that. they have to as a theory pursue whether. or not Tyler Robinson was used and if he. was used or set up and you have enough. to at least. uh uh credibly uh pursue it with an. investigation. If there are people who. are connected to Lance Twigs who are. predicting things and if this is a.

fairly recent phenomena where Tyler. Robinson is drawn into this world or. drawn into the relationship, that is not. something that is unheard of or. extremely rare when it comes to uh cases. where somebody ends up uh kind of doing. somebody else's dirty work. I would I. would venture to say that the defense is. or has explored this and we will see.

either in this preliminary hearing or in. trial whether they think there's any. traction to it. But certainly uh the. last thing you'd want to do is have him. get convicted and get the death penalty. and have ignored this whole area of. investigation because that'll buy you an. IA in a 2255 petition in the 10th. circuit faster than you can say uh um. hide the gun. >> Can I just jump on that real quick, Megan? >> Effective assistance of council. >> Yeah. What's interesting about that. point, I think Mark's exactly right. One.

of the factors the jury is going to be. asked to consider is was the person. under the substantial domination of. another at the time they committed the. murder. And that's a I had even thought. about that angle until Mark was just. saying it. But they may really be able. to lean into that where a conspiracy. situation might really help the defense. not in the guilt phase but in the. penalty phase because if if he is lured. into this or or there's somebody that's. there's some guru that they're listening. to or whatever the defense can find that. could help them theoretically. um in the.

penalty phase on this and Mark's right. they got to explore it no matter what or. or that IA claim is going to land on. their headscess to Matt's to Matt's. point they have already the are. developing mitigation the one of the. things you have to do as a capital. defense lawyer is you have to both walk. and chew gum at the same time you're. defending the guilt phase but you're. also robustly. developing mitigation.

If this is viable, you're starting it. with mitigation, meaning were you under. the influence of some other person? Is. there some kind of mental coercion or or. something along those lines? If it turns. out that somebody makes the game time. decision that, hey, this actually could. go towards guilt, so be it. But right. now, I I would be shocked if they. weren't investigating this. and and they. and you may see this during the.

preliminary hearing or at least kind of. nibbling around the edges. >> One one thing real quick is calling is. calling Lance Twigs Luna. >> Yeah, >> the defense is doing that. So, they're. not shying away from that. Viva, quick. last word. >> Two things. We need to find out who. radicalized Tyler Robinson online and. whether or not there are other players. involved and and whether or not, you. know, there might have been other. elements involved. But when Tyler, you. know, messages his his boyfriend and. says, "Remember when I was etching the. bullets?" I mean, if I'm the defense,

it's like, "Oh, why were you etching the. bullets?" And was was Lance enticing him. to etch these bullets. And did they have. a plan that Lance lured him in? That's. what you do as a defense. But bottom. line, for a conspiracy, what the hell. did Lance Twigs think he was etching. death threats into bullets for a week. before the assassination? >> Yeah, that's not something we all sit. around with our partners and see every. day. Uh, it's a good question. one of. one of many that we're going to be. exploring over the following week. Thank. you all for tuning in. Thank you to my. panel for being here [music] and we will. see you all again tomorrow.