"Cornell 7" Lawyer Speaks Out, Plus Bombshell New Texts From Jane Doe, & Reddington's Bizarre Tactic

Hey everyone, I'm Megan Kelly. Welcome. to the Megan Kelly show. Today we pick. up where we left off yesterday as we. have a lot of updates to the Cornell. story on the accuser, what happened in. the weeks between the alleged gang rape. and her reporting it to authorities, and. more. We noted yesterday how many are. falling into the same traps we've seen. over the years in stories like the Duke. fake lacrosse rape case or the UVA fake. rape case involving a fraternity there. where there is a rush to judgement and a.

total disregard for due process the. presumption of innocence or even common. courtesy for those being accused of one. of the most serious crimes a person can. commit. This morning, video emerged. online of one of the men listed as a. defendant in Jane Doe's lawsuit. Cornell. student Jillio Lopes being confronted on. campus. Watch. >> Are you not like embarrassed to be here?

>> After all of this time, after the case. comes out, your name is here, your face. is in the paper. Are you not ashamed. that you still here? You're with an. education while Jane Joe had to. leave. >> You realize there's a reason for that, right? What's the reason for that? >> I'm not going to talk about all this. right now. You don't even know. >> Yeah. And I You never will because. you're a disgusting person. You're a. disgusting person. Everyone in Cornell. is ashamed of you. Like that group chat. is disgusting. >> I had nothing to do with. >> Were you in the group chat?

>> Kai, there's 60 people. >> Yeah. And none of you did. >> I had nothing to do with. >> You're in the lawsuit, man. I don't know. what the to tell you. >> I'm just disgusted by you. I just want. to like let you know personally. So, I'm. ashamed to be on the same campus as you. >> and you're a gross person. So, >> here to react to this and with more on. the case is the attorney representing. Lopes, Tara Davis.

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with them and with me soon too. Tara, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for. being here. >> Thank you for having me. I'm sorry for uh what your client is. going through because even if he is. adjudicated guilty if he winds up. indicted by some grand jury, the rush to. judgment here is stomach turning and it. is literally unamerican. Um, can you. give us some background on how first you. got involved in this? Because when I.

look at your resume, it looks like. you're the lawyer I would call if, god. forbid, a son of mine got pulled into a. Title 9 hearing like these boys did at. Cornell University. >> No, thank you. I appreciate that. Um, so. I've been involved since the university. content proceeding. Um, I became. involved shortly after the notice of. allegations were sent out. So from the. very beginning through the university's. conduct process, through the. investigation, the hearings and the. appeals um I was working with the with.

my client and so I I have um been. involved since the very beginning. >> Okay. So you were there alongside of him. for the title N proceeding that happened. on Cornell's campus, >> correct? >> Okay. Amazing. because it wasn't so long. ago that you weren't entitled to have a. lawyer there with you under the Barack. Obama years. The lawyer, you had no. right as a defendant to even have your. counsel present. Isn't that true? >> Correct. Yeah. I mean, there has been a. lot of changes that have happened since.

2011 when the dear colleague letter was. issued. So, we did have a period of time. where attorneys were able to attend and. cross-examine witnesses. uh there was a. change in the administration and. correspondingly the regulations as you. mentioned and at that point those rights. were taken away for a period of time uh. fortunately not too long before they. were reinstated. So now we are back to. uh the position of being able to attend. uh being able to cross-examine witnesses.

and in fact the parties involved are not. able to cross-examine parties. themselves. They are required to have. adviserss. They don't have to be legal. adviserss, but they have to have. advisers conduct the cross- examination. >> It's an incredible, I mean, and very. valuable restoration. I have to say, God. bless President Trump for doing it. because it was Arie Duncan under Barack. Obama who wrote that dear colleague. letter that changed due process rights, eliminated them for anyone accused on. college campuses nationwide. You're. talking about a boy's entire future, his.

his college education, being labeled a. sex offender for the rest of his life. And they were told by Barack Obama's. administration, you you can't have a. lawyer in there. You can't. cross-examine. You have very limited. rights to discovery. It was very very. wrong. Trump reversed it. And here we. are now with your client and others. being accused by Jane Doe. Can I ask you. first of all, um, I have a I have a real. problem personally with the fact that. she's maintaining her anonymity and.

she's named all seven of these young men. explicitly. their names are in every. newspaper in the country right now. Can. you comment on that? >> Yeah, absolutely. And and you know, New. York State and and perhaps part of the. reason she chose to file in in the New. York State court is because they are. quite differential to uh parties that. that bring cases that involved. allegations of this nature. So there is. an opportunity to challenge that status. and we do have a return date for the. parties to oppose her request to appear.

by pseudonym. Um, but I think that the. courts are likely to allow her to remain. that status because of again the nature. of the allegations and that courts. typically do allow parties to to proceed. as as a dough. Um, on the other side, you know, often times we talk about is. it appropriate to name the defendants, right? I mean, if we're bringing a. lawsuit on the pliff side, which we. often do, do we name the other parties? And at this point, there have been some. discussions about do we move to keep. that pseudonym status or try to uh.

remove it. And and from our perspective, it doesn't matter at this point. I mean, the cat's side of the bag, like you. said, their names are everywhere. So, even if we were able to get them changed. to John Doe's 1 through 7, everyone. already knows their names and faces. >> Yep. Yep. We we tried not to say them. yesterday, but I mean, having you on, we. we're going to say them. And I'm giving. serious thought to saying her name, too, once I've confirmed it. Uh because the. members of the media can do what they.

think is ethical. And we have had many. examples in the past, including of the. New York Times naming an accuser if they. think the circumstances warrant it. And. I I think we're there on this case. personally, but continue to review. So, can you walk us through a little bit of. the timeline? When did Julio first find. out that what he thought cuz he was one. of the he he's one of the young men. accused of actually having a sexual. encounter with her. There were four out. of the seven who allegedly did. He is.

one of them. And my understanding is all. these boys thought it was consensual. I. mean it was runchy and it was a night of. debauchery if you will involving. ketamine etc. But the text messages. after the fact and her initial. statements appear to confirm that all. involved believed this was consensual, racy, but consensual in on the night it. happened and the days thereafter. So, how did he first get wind that she was. changing her tune? >> Yeah. So, I mean, I can't speak to the.

other uh defendants certainly. I I don't. think and I and I don't know exactly the. timeline for him. I can say that he did. not have any indication that this was. going to become something more serious. than than just a kind of a crazy night. until he heard that there was a report. that had been made. Um, and there was a. report that was filed, as you know, with. the Cornell police, but there was also a. campuswide um report that was made to. all of Cornell. So, at that point, people started to recognize that this.

was going to become a a more serious. matter and it likely was going to be. investigated. The Title N notice did not. come out till January, but by that point. because of the campus crime alert, they. had an understanding that that there was. likely going to be an investigation. >> And the event, we should remind people, happened in October, was October 19th. overnight into the 20th. Correct. >> Uh so it it made news campuswide in. January, but it had been it had occurred. a couple of months prior. So today, the.

New York Times has reports that it has. gotten its hands on the Title 9. documents on the the filings uh around. that issue, including it looks like. hearing transcripts. First of all, are. you surprised that that they have that? >> Uh I am. I I don't know where that came. from. I mean, certainly there are a lot. of people involved. There's a lot of. parties involved in the lawsuit, but. also a lot of people that are aware of. what's happening. So, you know, I. suppose it's not surprising that someone.

leaked them. I I don't know who and I. haven't seen them, so I'm not sure. exactly which documents they are. >> Um, yeah, and and same. I mean, I'm only. going off of what they what they. printed, but they they have a lot in. here that confirms, frankly, what I was. theorizing about yesterday, which is. that Jane Doe very clearly initially did. not think she had been raped at all. and. that it looks like from the documents.

they're reporting on, it was her. roommate who tried to convince her that. she had been raped as opposed to Jane. Doe coming up with this on her own. A. notion she'd been toying with. And then. there was a crucial denial by the KiFi. chapter president. to allowing Jane Doe to go to a. Halloween party. And that's when she got. really mad from what I read in the New. York Times. Can you elaborate? >> I don't recall specifically.

conversations with the roommate. I I. know she did speak to some of her. friends in the sorority house in in the. days following uh the interactions. Um. but I can say that I I do know that the. week following the events at issue, there was some kind of a Halloween event. or themed party that she had planned to. attend. some member of the fraternity, I'm not certain if it was the president, but some member of the fraternity told. her that that she shouldn't come or or.

disinvited her in in some way, something. to that effect. And I I think she was. upset by that. >> Yes. What what the Times is reporting. was that is that um in the days. thereafter first of all that the. roommate the roommate says one roommate. told investigators Jane Doe did not use. the word rape or assault when they were. first talking about it the day after it. seemed like she was in shock her other. roommate later told investigators quote. not really understanding the gravity of. what she was saying she went to her big.

sister Jane Doe did at the Triel house. um and told the sister there are. roommates circulating this is the next. day, October 21st, that she was a. The Big Sister, who's a junior at. Cornell at the time, told investigators, Jane Doe added with a laugh. Unfortunately, they're true, these. rumors. Um, the Big Sister. brought up her own passing. I could I. could tell that she had not yet. processed what happened. And then, um, she had her text Jane Do had a text.

exchange with another one of the. defendants known as defendant number. two. Again, we're saying the names now. This one's named Jonathan Newell and she. reassured him in this text where he. said, "I want to apologize for how. things went down that quote in her. words, "At the end of the day, none of. the sexual stuff was illegal." And. honestly, I really liked being with you. and Matt, she wrote explicitly. Um, then. she would get angrier because by October. 23rd, which was looks like 2 days later,

she texted, "Bro, everyone knows," and I. think this is to Matt, the the guy she. was meeting initially when she showed up. at the house. She said the episode was. ruining my life temporarily, that her. reputation had been destroyed, said all. she could do was sleep and cry all day. Matthew Engles assured her it would all. blow over soon, noting how fast nonsense. spreads at this school and that she did. not have anything to be ashamed of. "You're right," said Jane Doe. "It'll. get better." And then what the New York.

Times reports is that um even though she. had more texts, and I'll get into them. later when you're not here. I don't want. to bore you. Um you've seen it all, but. that ultimately we got to the Halloween. party. She was eager to attend. Um that. Mr. Engles texted her again saying, "We. want you here. Ki is your house. You're. welcome here." She wrote, "Thank you. I. really appreciate that. I'll bring my. Sigs tomorrow." And then she received a. phone call from the fraternity president.

disinviting her. It was for her own. good, she said. And she wrote back, "I. knew this was going to happen. The woman. will always get the short end of this. stick. Y'all aren't my friends. Y'all. are covering your asses." And then uh. she sent a nasty text to Mr. Newell, man. number two. Let's be clear, 90% of what. happened that night was not consensual. I was given more than I can remember. More key, short for ketamine. Uh, and I. know that I told you I felt. uncomfortable and I didn't know anyone. in that room. It went on from there. And.

then within days, um, literally within. days, she was at the campus police. So I. mean to me this is evidence of a woman. who was involved in a consensual. exchange that then her friends campus. rumor mill and ultimately anger over. feeling rejected by the fraternity whose. some of whose members she was with led. this woman to change her story.

>> Yeah. And I I think those all sound. accurate and and I do recall those text. messages and and I agree with the. general sentiment. I mean, again, I I. know, you know, what my client has told. me about what happened from his. perspective. He had very limited. involvement uh in the events of that. night. It was at the very beginning of. the night for a short period of time. Um. and the testimony and evidence that came. out during the university's conduct. proceeding confirmed all of that. So, from his perspective, I I mean, yes, everything was consensual and and there.

was no question about it. So I don't and if I ask something you. can't tell me, please obviously feel. free to say so. But what happened to. your client at the proceeding? Because. we know two were expelled and five. weren't. Some were given temporarily. temporary suspensions. >> Yeah, he received a suspension period in. addition to some educational sanctions. one of which included a component. involving an essay, which I think is. where people got that information and.

and kind of ran with the assumption that. that was the the full sanction. Uh it. was not. He he did receive a suspension. period. >> What What was the story with the essays? Because some are out there tweeting. nonstop, "OMG, all they had to do is write. essays." You know, how how outrageous. And it just seems like absolutely insane. to think a university like Cornell would. ever leave it at that because we all. know from the history if anything they. bend over backward to believe any woman. accuser and to throw the book at the. male defendants. So tell us the story of.

the essays. >> Yeah, and I agree with you. I heard you. talk about that yesterday as well. Something along the lines of what you. just said in terms of Cornell being the. institution that it is would never just. assign essays to someone found. responsible for a Title 9 violation. And. and honestly, in all the cases I've done. over many years, I can't recall a single. case where someone found responsible was. assigned only an essay. Um I I think. that that's just absurd and it wouldn't. happen. Um they had essays, some of them. to write. Again, I don't know every.

sanction because I wasn't privy to all. the materials, but that came in. combination with a number of other. sanctions. It was just one piece of the. sanctions received. Um, I think it was, yeah, it's Casey. Johnson, with whom I've been working for. years as a guest on my many shows, who. really is one of the best in terms of. covering what's been happening on. college campuses to young men and the. erosion of due process and these, you. know, you're you're guilty, you're. presumed guilty by all the irrelevant. authorities. and he writes uh in a piece.

for National Review yesterday uh that. Cornell. is in the top five of universities. nationwide that have faced lawsuits by. male respondents who claim their cases. were handled unfairly. It's one of the. top five most unfair to men being. accused. That's the unfortunate news for. your client is he happens to go to this. Ivy League university that does not. appear to believe in due process for men.

accused by young women. It's it's really. outrageous. Okay, so the essay the. temporary suspension and now we saw in. that video at the top of the show he's. still trying to complete his education. there. We believe he's a senior. How's. that going? >> Yeah. Um it's it's not easy certainly. I. mean, he's trying to get to his classes. and complete his degree eventually, but. as you can imagine, it's incredibly. difficult. Um, his name, his reputation,

everything has been affected by this. His family's name. Um, they're getting. doxed online. I mean, he's having safety. concerns. So, it's really scary. Um, and. unfortunately, or fortunately, he's able. to be on campus, right? I mean he served. his sanction and that's concluded and he. is permitted to be back but. unfortunately people um you know don't. see it that way and and want him to not. be there any longer. Um so it's it's. really really difficult you know I mean. he's just I think trying to get by the.

dayto-day right now. >> Did things change in the past week? Because I understand, you know, the. students on Cornell University campus. generally knew who the accuser was and. who the accused were, but this week it's. gone viral because she filed her civil. lawsuit naming them and now the whole. country knows. So, did things change. this week? >> Oh, absolutely. In the past week or two, absolutely. I This had not I mean, this. was something that occurred two years.

ago, you know, so people knew about it. at the time. People talked about it. there was the rumor mill, but after that. things had really quieted down. Um, and. there were some of the students that. were not permitted back that were. expelled. But the past two weeks, things. have just really um, you know, spread. like wildfire and and um, he's had to to. deal with things that have not been an. issue until this case was filed. >> It's very hard to get into Cornell or. any Ivy League university. It's is it's. harder than ever. Um, he's now done four.

years there, which is also an. accomplishment in and of itself. Does he. worry now about getting a job? I mean, that's that's the goal when you leave a. university. >> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I'm sure. they all do. I mean, you know, putting. aside what's happening on campus, like I. said, his name's out there, his. picture's out there, and regardless of. what happens in the civil suit or with. the the DA, you know, whether they. decide to go forward, if there are. criminal charges, regardless of what. happens with any of that, this.

information has spread so dramatically. across the news, across social media, that it it's going to be out there and. it's going to live on the internet um. you know, forever. So that certainly I I. think and he hasn't said that to me. directly, but I have to imagine that all. of these defendants are feeling that. way. >> We have a lot of moms who watch this. show. Can you speak at all to how his. parents are handling this? >> Yeah, I think um as any of us would. I'm.

a mom, too. I I I have boys, so you. know, this is certainly something that. that I think about a lot. And um I I. think they're devastated, right? I mean. to go through not only the the. university process in itself was. incredibly emotionally taxing. Um it was. a long process. There was uh you know a. lot involved in that and then getting to. the point where you get a sanction and. then serving that sanction and feeling. as though it's over only to be faced. with this now and to have this kind of.

attention and focus on on your son on. your family. It's it's it's awful. It's. awful what they're dealing with. And I. they're concerned for him. understandably. >> Yeah. Oh my gosh. I'm sure I'm sure. they're all all the families must be. devastated right now. I'll ask you about. what she alleges. You can tell me. whatever you can. She alleges in her. civil case that um Matt Les was the one. we referred to as man number one. That's. the one she showed up at the Ki House to.

see. They danced together. He said, "Can. we have a threesome with somebody?" and. she alleged to police that she said yes. Then she alleges in paragraph 158 at one. point defendant could no longer maintain. an erection. So he stopped participating. and told the other two he was going to. take a nap and proceed to get up, move. to a bed and sleep. Defendant Newell, that's defendant number two, then began. reaching for her vagina with his hand. multiple times and each time plainif. pushed his hand away. Paragraph 160. Soon after, defendant Lopes, and it is.

Lopes, it's not Lopez, you you tell us, entered the room, grabbed plaintiff away. from defendant Newell, and began kissing. her while defendant Newell groped her. from behind, specifically reaching for. her vagina. Paragraph 161. Defendant. Lopes and Newell then placed plaintiff. on a bed, and the two men began having. sex with plaintiff, initiating another. assault. This is her lawyer's language. in her civil complaint. All without. plaintiff's consent. So that's I mean. there's a few more allegations, but. that's the crux of it.

>> Does he deny those allegations? >> Yes. That that that's just not factual. It's not what was presented in the. hearing through any of the testimony. through the evidence. It it it's just. not um factual and it it's it's just. mischaracterized. And I I mean one thing. I'll say is that the amount of. information included in the complaint, which is I think 101 pages, is very. limited. And this was a proceeding that. took place for months that resulted in. an investigative record about 1500 pages.

long that included 50 witness interviews. and 12 1/2 days of a hearing. So there. is just much much more background and. context and detail than than what's. being presented in this complaint. >> And and your client is male number three. in the allegations, just to be clear. Yes. Uh, I believe so. >> Yeah. Okay. Male number three. Okay. Then, um,

does he deny that he had sex with her. that night? >> No. >> Okay. And his defense is that it was. consensual. >> Correct. >> And what about the the drugs? Like, how. big a factor was the ketamine at the. Title N hearing? >> It was extensively discussed. Um there. were a lot of questions about it. Uh not. surprisingly. Um the testimony provided.

was was pretty inconsistent as far as. the timeline. Uh I don't think there's a. dispute that it was present at some. point, but it it it's still not exactly. clear to me what the timeline was as far. as when when at all the complainant. consumed any when that happened and who. was involved. H does does that did the university. expel people? Can you tell us based on. the drugs or based on the allegations of.

sexual assault? >> Um it's hard to separate out. I mean I. would say if there was solely an. allegation of drug use probably not. You're probably not looking at an. expulsion. But here the relevance is to. the question of capacity. So, you know, in looking at the allegations of sexual. assault, the question is whether she was. incapacitated. such that she could not consent because. of her consumption of different. substances that night.

And that was something that we've now. heard from the DA uh for Ithaca and the. county there that he felt he could not. prove in a court of law that she was. incapacitated based on her own six-page. single spaced typed statement that have. according to him 20 of her handwritten. notes. So she edited it, she added to it. and then she signed it under penalties. of perjury. And he believed that that. statement, which we haven't seen, what. made clear that throughout that night,

there was not an issue of her capacity, that while she was increasingly. intoxicated, it was always her own. choice at her own hand, and that she. never reached the point of full physical. incapacitation, meaning unconsciousness. or inability to speak or interact. Is. that your understanding? >> I mean, again, it's a bit hard for me to. to speak to. I know that when my client. was involved earlier in the evening um. at the earlier end of these events, she.

was not incapacitated as far as we saw. through all the testimony, her own. testimony included as as well as the. evidence. >> So, how long did the whole thing go on? How many hours did this hap happen over. >> uh the alleged event we're talking. about? I believe. >> Yeah. So, she says that she arrived to. the house, I think around 11:00, and. left sometime after about 5:45 or 6:00. a.m.

>> Okay. Cuz her roommate, according to. this New York Times report on the Title. 9 proceeding, says she didn't get back. home until 11:00 a.m. that morning, but. she do Do you know is that is that when. she left the Ki house? Because she said. she fell asleep for a time. >> Yeah, she may have she may have fallen. asleep for some time after the the last. sexual encounter that she had and left. later that morning. I don't recall if it. was 11:00. Um, that that could be right. I I just don't recall exactly. >> Okay. So, there were, as I read the. complaint, it's and it's and the. six-page uh statement, the excerpts that.

we've been given, etc. It looks to me. like there were three sexual interludes. that she had in the course of that time. There was um the first one, which I. think was with Matt and uh this other. guy, number two. And then there was a. second one which involved Matt and your. client. And then there was a third one. later in the evening. Is that correct? That sounds correct. >> Okay. So, what you're saying is you feel.

very satisfied that she had capacity. when she was with your client. You're. not going to speak to what her status. was or how she was on the third. interlude. >> Correct. >> Okay. Um, and they have separate. council, those young men. >> Yes. >> You only only represent Lopes? >> Yes. >> Okay. Um, and so does Lopes admit to. drug use that night? >> No, he didn't use any drugs that night.

>> Okay. So, is she's accusing him, I. think, I think she's accusing all seven. of them, excuse me, of of snorting. ketamine off of her quote perfect body. Um, he says that's not true. >> That is not true. Okay. And did he do one of the hair. follicle tests um like Scott Cretchar. did to prove that he did not take. ketamine? >> Uh I don't believe so. I think Scott Kay. was the only one who did that.

>> Okay. But it was not was he wasn't found. guilty of it, I guess, is the is that. the way to phrase it at the Title N. hearing? >> Uh he. Sorry. He being Scott or or my client. >> Your client? Yeah. Lopes. Yeah. Sorry. No, I I believe the hearing panel had. found that he wasn't involved in in the. use of the academy that night. >> Okay. So, what was he is it is found. guilty the right word? I mean, what was. he. >> found responsible? >> What did they say he did? The the Title.

N panel. >> He was found responsible for some. violations of their policy. I I don't. know that I want to go into too much. detail on that. >> Okay. There is a remarkable report in. Unheard today. the reporting by our our. friend Sarabamari who spoke with the. lawyer representing this other defendant. Scott uh Ketchmark and that lawyer tells. Unheard that during the proceeding at. least during Scott's portion I don't. know what your experience was the the.

chief investigator for the Title N team. was in her car she was driving for 45. minutes of it and that at another point. he could see from her glasses is that. she was surfing online like barely. paying attention to evidence that his. lawyer said was actually. exculpatory for Scott. What was your. experience and and Jillio's in that? >> I do recall that. Um I think everyone. made note of that. I mean, this was a. long proceeding. Like I said, it was 12.

and a half days of testimony. But there. was one point, probably about halfway. through where it it wasn't the hearing. chair. It was one of the other panelists. where everyone noticed that she was in a. car, she had the seatelt on, and you. could kind of see movement from driving. in in her glasses. >> So, I mean, do you think they were. taking this seriously at, you know, these so-called investigators and those. who are going to be determining these. boys' fate? >> I I think they were taking it seriously. I don't know that they were perhaps at.

least this particular individual was. paying attention as much as she should. have been throughout the entire thing. Um but I I do think they were taking it. seriously in in terms of recognizing how. how serious the allegations were. Um but. but that was one of the the concerns. that we had with with the process. I. mean, you know, from our perspective. there there were a number of things. Cornell did in terms of their uh. handling of the case, which I don't. think were perfect, but that was one. thing I I know that a lot of the. advisers picked up on.

>> Yeah, you would definitely want them to. be paying attention when you're. presenting your exculpatory evidence. >> So, what role now? Now, we're seeing. text messages between Jane Doe and a. number actually of the boys after the. fact. definitely with Matt um also with. defendant number two um and maybe some. others. It's some of it the reporting is. confusing because they don't reveal the. names in each instance or they block. them out. >> But I is that your understanding that in.

the days after this happened all the. text messaging from Jane Doe reflected a. woman who believed the consent that the. experience had been consensual. >> There were some that indicated that. Yes. I I think the the ones more close. in time to when the events happened, I I. think that did shift as more time. passed, but the initial ones there was. certainly some indication of that. >> And as somebody yesterday, it emerged. and we spent some time on this on the.

show that the six-page statement to. which she swore under penalties of. perjury did not use the word rape except. in a hypothetical context like gez, if I. had fallen asleep and they had sex with. me, that would have been rape. but she. did not actually accuse them of rape in. that statement. Is that true? >> Have to check that. That sounds correct. I I think, you know, it's important to. keep in mind though from the. university's perspective that that's not. how they define uh a violation of. policy. Right? So, from their.

perspective, it's a question of whether. it was consensual or not. So, it could. have been that she had that in mind um. when she was drafting the statement, but. I I don't I I'd have to double check if. if she used that word in. >> Okay. Did the university find the young. men responsible for rape? >> So, they wouldn't find them responsible. for rape because that's not necessarily. the the the terminology used. It would. have been sexual assault that they would. classify it as. Was anyone found li or.

responsible for sexual assault expelled? >> Uh I I don't know for certain because I. don't know every sanction that was. imposed for all seven of them. >> Okay. But some were found responsible. for sexual assault in the eyes of the. univer eyes of the university. >> Yes. >> Um why do you think the DA is reopening. this case and now going to submit it to. a grand jury? Uh, I mean, to me it seems. like pressure to do so. I mean, people. are outraged, understandably. I mean, if.

if they're hearing the way that she's. presenting the case, of course, people. are going to be horrified and outraged. at at what's being said. Um, so I think. it is just that pressure to take another. look at it. And if they didn't do any. real investigation at the time, um, you. know, perhaps they feel that that now is. the time to do it to to make sure that. they reach the right decision initially. What do you think people out there need. to know about this case that they don't. know?

>> I I think they need to understand that. there there's a lot more to what. happened. And again, I'm not speaking. for for every defendant. Um I'm not. saying there was no wrongdoing, you. know, or or things that happened that. maybe shouldn't have, but there's a lot. more that needs to be considered. And. this is all going to come out through. the case, right? I mean, we're in the. early phases of the complaint just. having been filed. There's going to be. discovery and depositions and a lot more. information is going to come out. So, I.

I would just, you know, encourage people. to be perhaps a bit more open-minded and. not immediately jump to conclusions. about about who did what and who's. guilty or not. >> Are there are you thinking of documents. that you've seen that are going to come. out or do you think it's testimony that. you're going to elicit? uh both, but. probably primarily the testimony um. because that makes up the majority of. the investigative record. >> There is an allegation that the New York. Times is repeating today from the Title.

N proceeding that this Jane Doe told at. least a roommate that she had been. sexually assaulted before. This is not. her first accusation of sexual assault. Is that news to you? Uh, I don't want to. comment on that one. You know, I want to. respect the privacy on on her past. history. >> Okay. Sure. Um, and can you confirm, you. know, I'm not going to ask you to name.

the uh the the Jane Doe, but is it is it. your understanding that she is from the. south, from Alabama? >> I recall she's from somewhere far from. New York. I I honestly don't recall. exactly where it was, >> but I'm I'm pretty sure said something. about live living a few thousand miles. away, so I know it wasn't in the charge. >> Yeah. A thousand. >> Yeah. >> A thousand. Yep. And and your. understanding is even though she's not. from New York State that she filed you.

think she filed in New York State. Supreme because you think that's the. place that would be most friendly to. allowing her to proceed anonymously or. do you think it it could go beyond that. as somebody who practices this kind of. law? >> I mean there's a couple factors. I think. it jurisdictionally it probably made the. most sense because of where all the. defendants are located or or the far. majority are located. I'm sure that was. consideration number one. Um, but I do. think New York State as as um as a. general batter, you know, is is pretty. accommodating in terms of allowing for.

parties to proceed by pseudonym. >> The I think the biggest thing that led. to this getting revived by the DA, who. seems to not think that there is a case. here, is the Snapchat exchange, which he. says he didn't have at the time, but he. also says he thinks it's irrelevant. legally. Um, but it just reflects so. poorly on the young men involved, the. free P word upstairs, and then we. learned overnight that there's another. piece of the exchange where someone.

texts, "Shop still open." And someone. else responds, "Yeah, just let me ask. you explicitly whether Lopes is is. involved in the excerpts that we've. seen.". >> He is not. And that was something that. was confirmed through the the hearing. process as well. He was not on there. he. was not active in that group and. actually the first time he ever saw it. was in his second interview with the. investigators in February of 2025.

So, can I get you to comment on that? Because, you know, if you heard me. yesterday, you heard me say there's a. serious moral problem with the exchanges. here. And, you know, I have my own. judgments about even what happened in. that room, even if it were consensual, but I don't think a crime was committed, as I also said, but can you speak to the. moral outrage piece of it and what the. young men are thinking about that now? >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's awful. I I was. sitting with him in that interview when. we saw that for the first time and I. think we were equally horrified um you.

know to see people even talking in that. way and and yeah I mean putting aside. the fact that it may not on its own be a. a violation of any policy or or a crime. necessarily to to talk in that way it. it's it's disturbing. Um and I'm sure. that you know the the men that are on. there are embarrassed as they should be. Um and so you know I I certainly agree. I mean to to see people talk in that way. is is very upsetting. >> This is a weird question maybe but I you.

know part of me is shocked to to see. even what we do know happened in there. with you know three different threesomes. and the the drugs that part of me is. shocked that kids who work this hard to. get into this elite institution would. behave like that. I maybe I'm just naive. Tara but can you shed any light on it? Uh I I think I I you know I no longer. share um any of that naive just because. we've been doing this for long enough to. to see this over and over again. Not to. this level, but um you know just seeing.

kids who are away from home for the. first time and experimenting with. different things regardless of whether. it's a huge Ivy League school on the. east coast or small liberal liberal arts. on the west coast. Um kids do dumb. things, right? and and hopefully it's. not to this extent where it leads to uh. conduct findings and sanctions and. potential criminal activity, right? I. mean, we hope that it's things that are. are just a matter of a a learning. experience, but it it doesn't surprise.

me because we've we've seen this over. and over. Um again, not to this level, but we you know, every day we're getting. calls of of different things that people. have uh concerns about with their. universities and colleges. the um one of the concerns and I I thank. you. I'm grateful to you for being here. today is the doxing not only of the. young men but their lawyers. Um this.

Jeremy Saland who represents uh the. other guy I mentioned, he he came out. and said he personally is being doxed. I'm going to play that sound bite. It's. number seven. We're interpreting that snap now as. something horrible and horrific and it. may have been, but he did not know this. and that's why he went there and he was. looking for his roommate or his friend. who had left the room at the time. So, I. don't know what else we could do and I I. I just please I I've been I have gotten. doxed like you can't fathom to the point.

of about me being Jewish Zionist rapist. Uh, I should be raped, my family should. be brutalized, my my address, everything. I I get calls every 30. seconds. I'm getting calls as I'm. sitting here with you, threats and. threats and threats. People need to. pause, understand the facts, and if. there needs to be accountability, there. should be accountability. But if there. doesn't, give someone the benefit of the. doubt. She could be a victim. And even. if she really is in full extent, it.

doesn't mean that Scott, who is not. someone who did anything wrong, should. be victimized and abused and thrown over. the coals, raped over the coals. >> Are you worried about that, Tara, for. you and your other lawyers? Yeah, I mean I, you know, I certainly in. coming on to speak with you, it's. something I I thought about in terms of. um you know, people having a a. perspective about this case and um but. like I said, there there's a lot more. here that and and like Jeremy said, I.

mean, there's a lot of facts that have. to come out and I think people need to. pause and and just wait to see um you. know, what happens with the case and. where this goes because it's easy to. rush to judgment based on the. information that's been shared in the. media, but There there's a lot more that. needs to be considered. >> really. So, do you think the people who. have rushed to condemn these boys as. gang rapists might wind up embarrassed? >> I I hope they I don't know that that. they'll wind up embarrassed or that I. hope they do, but I hope they they can.

be open-minded and revise their opinions. when warranted. >> Wow. Um, some of the craziness we've. heard has come from random people. online. Some has come from some of the. most powerful lawmakers in America. Your. client is just a kid at Cornell. University. It's a lot to have, you. know, people like Chuck Schumer attacking him. explicitly, the Senate minority leader. But he did. Schumer texted the following.

or posted on X. The allegations of. sexual assault and rape at Cornell. University are horrifying and deserve a. thorough investigation that leaves no. stone unturned. It took extraordinary. courage for this young woman to come. forward to university administrators. and police. I mean, already she's the. courageous one. This is already assuming. something illegal happened and that. she's got the courage and she's the one. we should be celebrating. It's very. wrong for a politician to be doing this. He goes on, "What she reported demanded.

urgency, seriousness, and an unflinching. pursuit of the truth from the very. beginning. Sexual assault remains far. too common on college campuses across. America, and the culture of silence and. complicity that allows it to persist. must be confronted. It's incumbent upon. all of us, elected officials, university. leaders, faculty, and students, to build. campus communities where sexual violence. is never tolerated, maximized, or or. minimized, or ignored. There must now be. a truly independent and exhaustive. investigation, not only into what. happened, but into how this case was.

handled from the moment she came. forward. Every fact must be uncovered. Every failure must be examined. Wherever. wrongdoing occurred, there must be. accountability. She had the courage to. come forward. No survivor should have to. summon that courage and then fight the. system to make it respond. Your reaction. to that? I. >> I mean, I agree with the majority of. what he's saying. There's no question. that sexual assault is a problem on. college campuses and we know that and. and the data shows that. Um but that. doesn't mean that that's what happened. here. And do you think that the likes of Chuck.

Schumer and and some Democrats may use. this to try to restore the Title 9. provisions for due process on college. campus that were in place under Barack. Obama? >> I I don't know. I mean, I I think I. think the process that is in place it. does work. not 100% of the time, but uh. like I said, I've been to a lot of these. hearings, and when the processes are. implemented and and followed, they do. reach correct outcomes.

>> I assume you do not want to see a. restoration of the Barack Obama era of. Title 9 enforcement. >> Uh preferably not. >> Yeah, I mean, I can I can speak to it. myself. Absolutely not. I've seen too. many boys lives get ruined with no. really no appeal. Even if you find the. devastating text message after the fact, the universities they don't care and. they don't listen. Here's Elise Lotkin, who is a Democrat from the state of. Michigan, US Senator. >> We know what it's like when institutions.

fail women. Now, it's time for Cornell. to step up and treat this with the. seriousness they should have treated it. two years ago. That institutions have. plenty of tools and accountability. measures. um they can uh remove. students, >> they can um suspend them indefinitely. until the court proceedings. They can do. a million things. >> Um writing an essay in my mind is not. part of that list. When we make the.

decision that because young men have a. promising career ahead of them, that. they shouldn't face accountability for. violently assaulting a woman, like then. we've lost our way. >> What's your response to that? >> I mean, again, with the essays that that. wasn't the outcome, right? So I I agree. that there should be accountability and. there are plenty of cases where that's. appropriate and it may have even been. appropriate here with respect to some of.

the defendants, but this unfortunately. is another, you know, snapshot of people. who don't have all the facts and are. reading what's, you know, the sound bite. that's been circulated and and gone. viral as far as what the allegations. are. >> Last but not least, the the folks on. TikTok are having themselves a week. Um, your client has to live with this and. get confronted by random co-eds on. campus as a result of this kind of. rhetoric. I'll play some for you.

>> Ruin their futures. Ruin them. ruin their futures. Because maybe, just. maybe, if we hold young people. accountable, then we won't have rapist. presidents. And that is a future that I would love. love love to see. >> If you're going to do the crime, >> ruin ruin ruin their futures. I really.

do believe that every single person who. is in that group chat who's chose not to. speak up is complicit in this violent. crime. The gutless bystanders are just. as culpable in my opinion. If a dog were. to bite you, what would happen? the dog. would be put down. Okay, justice will be. served cuz if it was my daughter, you. guys would be hanging upside down in my. basement slowly bleeding. But violence. is not the answer, guys. Unless it comes. to my kids. >> I haven't been able to stop thinking. about the Cornell rapists. I don't call.

them the Cornell 7 because they're. rapists. So, we call them the Cornell rapists. >> What do they need to know about Gillio. that they don't know? I think they need to wait and see what. the evidence shows. I mean, like I said, um she was not incapacitated at the time. that he was involved with her. Um the. evidence shows that the the decision. shows that he was not aware of the. Snapchat messaging. So, I'm not, you.

know, again, saying that there was no. wrongdoing here to some degree, but. there there was no evidence sufficient. to show that there was a crime. committed. And, you know, I'm I'm all. for accountability as well. And and. certainly if there were some of these uh. defendants and and students that that. were accountable, right, and they should. be held responsible for that and they. were um they were imposed sanctions. So, you know, it's not like they're they're. found responsible and automatically.

permitted to return to campus and go. about their lives. I mean, they did they. did receive sanctions from the. university. >> To those who say he walked in there, this is a woman who is clearly high or. drunk, out of her mind, and he should. have turned around and walked right back. out and or stopped the whole thing. What. say you? >> That's not how she was presenting. And. the evidence will show that she was not. presenting in a way that would have. suggested that she was not aware of what. was happening.

>> So he thought she was she had total. capacity and was there enjoying herself. >> I don't know that I I would phrase it. exactly like that. I I think I'll leave. it at that though. >> Okay, fair enough. Listen, thank you. I. know it's it's risky sadly for you. personally to come out and speak to this. which is very very wrong. Everyone. accused deserves a a good lawyer. That's. how our system works. And um and your. client deserves to have people stay.

open-minded to what his defense is. before he's had the chance to present it. publicly. He should not be dragged in. this way. We really appreciate it, Tara. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> All the best to you. >> You too. >> Wow. This is like this is turning into I. mean full Salem witch trial. These guys. are being. lynched in the media before we've heard. anything. The Tara, that guy Jeremy, who. I just played, those are the only two. who have gone on camera to speak out. So, we haven't even heard the defense of. most of these guys. And yet, still, you.

get these women all over social media. You get Slotkin, you get Schumer. There's more to reveal. We'll do it when. we when we come back along with some. other news. Hey, thanks for watching today's full. episode. If you're new here, throw us a. subscribe. See what you think. Stay in. touch. There's plenty more goodness. where this one came from. As always, we. really do value your feedback. So, email. me, too. Megan megnanc kelly.com or just. leave a comment down below. I do read. them. I meander over and I scroll. through and I find them very.

entertaining and really appreciate the. feedback. But in any event, join the. community by becoming a subscriber so. you miss nothing. We value your support. We may not always agree on positions, but as you know, I'm very open-minded to. people who disagree with me. That's how. I learn. So, thanks and thanks for. trusting us to always talk about it. openly, honestly, and with provocative. conversations. It's no wonder so many. people are scared of AI because it is. changing everything, including how. criminals steal. They're targeting. something most Americans do not even.

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The ai threat is real. Do not let. scammers have the upper hand. That's. hometitleock.com promo code Megan30 to. get peace of mind today. Swimming in information here, swimming. in it. Like drowning in it at the moment. and trying to keep it all straight for. you. But here here's the chronology. I. didn't want to waste Tara's time with. going through the text to the text to. the text. She was very forthcoming. That. is the most forthcoming we've heard any. defense lawyer representing any one of. these seven be. So, credit to her. Um,

a lot came out overnight, so I want to. go through it with you. First of all, you've got. um Okay, the reveal of text from October. 23rd. This is 4 days after the incident. All right. And they they don't make. clear who she was talking to in this. text exchange, but she writes, "Bro,

everyone knows." And then the peace. sign, "I'm incredibly stressed out. Some. random blocked out told some of my. friends, I don't even know who that is. How blank she know me." How blank she. know me. So, I don't know. exactly who she's texting with. I'm. going to guess it's defendant number one. who's Matthew um because that seems to. be her main friend at Ki and the one. identified as male number one who opened. the door with whom she danced who she.

thought was attractive etc. And then she. texts him still on October 23rd 4 days. after the incident. I will also say this. is ruining my life temporarily. My. reputation is destroyed and I'm utterly. ashamed. That's extremely important. right there because that's that's the. motivation. I mean, her her defenders. will say that's the consequence of being. gang raped. And I think there's a very. strong argument by the young men that.

it's the reason she changed her story. It's the reason she went from very. clearly. saying, "I consented to this and nothing. illegal happened," which was another. text she sent right around this time. frame, to one of the young men, to I was. gang raped and it was not consensual and. I was incapacitated the whole time. And. she's kind of telling us right here in. her own words, "My reputation is. destroyed and I'm utterly ashamed that. all these people know." She says it,

"All these people know my reputation is. destroyed. I'm utterly ashamed. Then his. his piece of this exchange, whoever. she's texting with, is blocked out by. ABC. She goes on to say, "You're right. It'll get better and thank you. Everyone's just jealous of us, but also. like everyone needs to grow up." Listen. to this cuz sexuality and sex and blank. is changing and stuff like this is going. to become more common. I'm also really. open-minded though. I love you, King.

Also tell anyone who gives you blank. that I'll actually beat them up that. don't want the smoke. I promise. So, she. seems to be saying to this guy October. 23rd, again, I'm just guessing it's male. number one, Matthew, that um she's mad. her reputation is destroyed. She feels. ashamed because everyone's talking about. it. And she says, "I'm stressed because. some of my friends know and h how do.

these people know about it?" And then he. apparently says, "Everyone's just. jealous of us." And she responds, "You're right. It will get better." And. you think everyone's just jealous of us, but also everyone needs to grow up. because sexuality and sex, it's changing. and stuff like this is going to become. more common. I'm also really. open-minded, though. And then I love you. king. This is one of her alleged. rapists. We think that she's talking to.

I love you king. I mean, if this really. is defendant number one, Matthew, this. is just a deeply problematic text for. her side. I love you, king. I'm just. really open-minded. sex and sexuality. is going to become more common like this. meaning threesomes obviously like what. this is devastating okay now that was. 1023. now as I pointed out to you in the New.

York Times. piece today that has the title n hearing. information in it. there is a reveal about. what happened around this Halloween. party that was just devast devastating. for Ki. Okay. Yeah. By the way, the New. York Times confirms that that October. 23rd text is with man number one. His. name is Matthew Les. I guess we're going. to out them all. Um the New York Times.

has named him. And they they also. confirm she wrote, "Bro, everyone knows. this episode is ruining my life. temporarily. My reputation's been. destroyed." And then they add that she. wrote all she could do was sleep and cry. all day. He assured her it would blow. over soon, noting how fast nonsense. spreads at this school, saying she did. not have anything to be ashamed of. You're right, she responded. It'll get. better. Um, okay. Then she had a text. with her big sister that week. Uh,

she wrote to the big sister. Have you. heard the rumor about your little? In. the meantime, Jane Doe had delivered. strict instructions to one of her. roommates. If anyone asks about this, say it didn't happen. The roommate was. plainly concerned. Initially, the. roommate said Jane Doe was quote kind of. recounting it as this crazy this sort of. crazy thing that she had done. So, the. roommate's confirming that Jane Doe came. back from the house and just thought it. was a crazy thing she'd done, a crazy. night she'd had. And then I told you in. that one text she was saying people to. her big sister. People are saying I'm a.

And they're right. Haha. I've got to tell you something. Okay. I. told you yesterday that I was in Trid. Delt and you know there's a there's I I. loved Tridel for the year that I was in. it and I deactivated the next year. because as I told you yesterday I had a. boyfriend who was an an athlete there. and they couldn't he wasn't allowed at. any of the parties. So I'm like I don't. want to go to these parties. What am I. doing here? Anyway, um. the you've you've probably heard the. saying of Trielt is Trid Delt everyone. else has. And I'm not going to lie,

there was a reputation amongst some that. they were kind of easy. Not yours truly. Something I've always. prided myself on. Not easy. Really not. easy in any way. Um but anyway, that. there was a reputation and that the. saying was Tridel. Everyone else has. Um. this girl seems to be leaning in saying, "Ah, I just, you know, I'm very. open-minded and sex and sexuality it's. all changing and you know, like she's. kind of cool with all this." and then.

says to the to the big sis allegedly. that there are rumors circulating that. I'm a and then says with a laugh, quote, "Unfortunately, they're true.". Now, that was 2 days after the alleged. rape, the alleged gang rape. Now, she. she's saying to her, "People are calling. me a and they're right.". Okay, so this is like this is the these. are the initial texts. That same day, October 21st, she. received a text message from defendant. number two. His name is Jonathan Newell.

This is the one who. tweeted out or Snapchat Snapchated out. though it's spelled differently. Jonathan Newell in the Snapchat free. Pword in the alumni PU. I don't know. what that stands for. It was an alumni. room. So, defendant number two, you. know, we had some harsh words for him. yesterday. He's going to have to spend. some time. reconciling his behavior with what I.

assume his parents taught him is ethical. conduct. And um she does have a text. with him. He was engaged in at least two. of these threesomes. Jonathan Newell. allegedly. and she has a text message. with him on October. 21st. that reads, this is according to the New. York Times's report of the Title N. proceedings. Uh he she got a text.

message from him, one of the men she. would go on to accuse of sexual assault. Quote, I just want to wanted to. apologize for how things went down the. other night. He then said that both he. and Matthew Engles, defendant number. one, another of the men she would later. accuse of assault, both felt terrible. for being too under the influence of. drugs and alcohol, to quote, "shut it. down and kick people out before it got. way out of hand." Jane Doe replied and. assured him, quote, "At the end of the. day, none of the sexual stuff was. illegal, and honestly, I really liked. being with you and Matt." End quote.

I mean, I'm pretty sure that the parents. of Matthew Ingles and Jonathan Newell. are probably very outraged. Even though. their son wrote that ridiculous Snapchat. and probably is the one who got this. whole thing reopened, he's got it in. writing from this woman that she enjoyed. her sex with him and that initial. threesome, that she enjoyed it and that. none of it was illegal in her viewpoint. Again, that's not determinative, but.

it's not helpful to a prosecution. Um, then things started to change a bit. Well, actually, before we get to that, okay, then she had the uh then she had. an exchange on October 25th. Defendant. number one, Matthew Les, texted her, "You good?" She replied that defendant. number two, Mr. Newell, had quote, "Definitely told people." days later, she sent Matthew Ingles an image of the. forum post that she had found, she said,

while she was randomly surfing, suggesting there had been a gang rape at. Ki. And she sent it to Matthew with. three question marks. And he responded, "Ridiculous. I'm going to report that. Ridiculous. I'm going to report that.". So, there we are in late October with. these exchanges. And there's nothing. about a rape. There's only her calling. herself a. and saying attitudes about sex are. changing and calling I believe defendant.

number one Matthew I believe that's not. on the statement I'm assuming a king. saying love you king. um then comes according to the New York. Times the. Halloween party as Halloween approached. Jane Doe's roommates told investigators. her understanding of what happened. appeared to have shifted around October. mber 28th, Mr. Ingles was on the phone. with Jane Doe and according to one of. her roommates who said she overheard the.

conversation, he apologized to her, but. rather than assure him everything was. okay, Jane Doe took a different tone. Quote, "How could you let this happen?". End quote. The room roommate recalled. her saying, quote, I think she wanted it. to be consensual. End quote. The. roommate told investigators looking back. on how Jane Doe was processing the. alleged assault. The roommate told. investigators that Jane Doe had been. sexually assaulted before, which made it. particularly hard for her to talk openly. about what had happened. Quote, "I'd. have conversations and she would.

describe a part of what happened, and I. would tell her that that is what could. be classified as rape.". So, here is the roommate admitting that. she is the one who introduced the. concept of rape to Jane Doe. She'd also. read online that someone got gang raped. at Ki, but it is the roommate telling. her, "You're you're not a You were. gang raped." And and the roommate. testified to this that I would tell her.

this is what could be classified as. rape. Okay. But Jane Doe was not yet. deter deterred from her desire, I think, to be with defendant one, Matthew Les, who she thought she was attracted to, who she said she enjoyed her interlude. with, who she danced with and went to. the Ki house to be with on the night in. question. The Times reports at Ki the fraternity. was preparing for a Halloween party and. Jane Doe was eager to attend. Now, I've. got to ask you, if you have just been.

gang raped by four to seven fraternity. members at KiFi, why would you be eager. to attend a party at the fraternity. house? This is what came out at the Title N. hearing. She was eager to attend. She. said, "I am a slut." She said, "Attitudes about sex and sexuality are. changing. This is going to be happening. a lot more frequently.". Okay. She's eager to attend the party at.

her alleged gang rapist's house. Text. messages included in the investigation. show Matt Engles assuring Jane Doe that. he and other frat members wanted her to. be there. Quote, Kyifi is your house and. you are welcome here. End quote. He. wrote, relaying the views of the. fraternity's president, who was not. among those accused of sexual assault. She responded, quote, thank you. I. really appreciate that. End quote. and. then added quote with a heart, I'll. bring my Sigs tomorrow. End quote. But.

then, this is critical in my view. Jane. Doe received a phone call from the. fraternity's president. According to the. text messages, she was disinvited from. the party. It was for her own good, he. said. Now, I'm just going to say. that was colossally stupid. Absolutely idiotic. by that guy. Now. you're going to step in. Now you're. going to enforce some sort of moral code.

around her wellness and safety. Dude, what did you think was going to happen? You did you think that was going to make. her feel all warm and fuzzy about Ki and. the guys in it? Or do you think that. might light a fire under this woman. who's already being told by her roommate. she was raped and starting to rethink. the the narrative around that night. according to that roommate.

So, and by the way, if you think she's. in danger and it's for her own safety in. terms of coming back to Ki, you get your. young men in order. You have a little. team meeting where you say no one lays a. hand on her. Everybody, everybody better. behave like a perfect gentleman or you. know what? You cancel your party that. year. Just absolutely idiotic. So it set her off. She sent a biting.

text not to the fraternity president but. to her friend Matthew Les. I knew this. was going to happen. She wrote, "The. woman will always get the short end of. the stick." I read this earlier with. Tara. Y'all aren't my friends. y'all are. covering your asses. That is all um right in advance of. Halloween. It does it's not dated in the. New York Times. Um. then, okay, by November 3rd, she appears. to have concluded that she was.

assaulted. She sent a text to Mr. Newell. Mr. Newell by o by November 3rd. Okay. And in that November 3rd text, she. wrote, "Let's be clear that 90% of what. happened that night was not consensual. I was given more key, meaning ketamine, than I can remember. And I know that I. told you I felt uncomfortable and I. didn't know anyone in the room." The.

text continued with her telling uh. Newell, defendant number two, that one. of her only memories was doing ketamine. off of his penis. quote in front of. everyone like a sex doll slashworker end. quote. This is not good for the young men of. course and now she is saying it was most. of it was non-consensual. I told you I. felt uncomfortable. I didn't want anyone. in the room and that she felt like she.

was a sex dollar sex worker. Now, feeling like a sex dollar sex worker was. going to happen. to virtually anybody other than one of. these paid prostitutes. You know, if you go into a room and. voluntarily have sex with four to seven. men, it's really only four. She's saying. you're probably going to feel like that. It's why you shouldn't do it. Among the. many, many reasons. And by the way, she. showed up at the Ki House at 11:00. um on, you know, some evening, the. October 19th. Let me pro tip. Nothing.

good is going to happen to you if you. show up at a fraternity house on a. college campus at 11 p.m. any night of. the week. Ever. Ever. And then as soon as you go. upstairs with somebody, guess what? They're going to think it's consent to. sleeping with them. Virtually every single man on earth is. going to think you would like to have. sex with him. if you show up at the. fraternity house at 11 o'clock at night,

then willingly go upstairs with them. And according to Jane Doe, this Matthew. Les then turned around to her and said, "Would you consider having a threesome. with another guy and me?" And she said, "Yeah, actually, yes, I would. I I would. like to." So now you're really. telegraphing consent, which she's. completely rejecting now. But th those. facts we know from her from her six-page. statement. So here we go. That was um November 3rd.

when she said it wasn't consensual. A. lot of it I told you I felt. uncomfortable. I didn't know anyone in. the room and the the one memory was. doing ketamine off of your penis in. front of everyone like a sex. doll/worker. Now, on November 7th, she went to an. emergency room in Ithaca and requested a. rape kit. I haven't heard much about. what happened with the rape kit, but I I. don't think from. sexual interludes that happened on. October 19th there would be anything.

relevant or probative by 117 other than. possibly that bruise she said she got on. her rear end from one of the threesomes. where she alleges defendant number two, that's Newell, slapped her rear end. hard. Um, so it's possible that was. noted, but I don't think any evidence of. actual intercourse would still be there. November 7th, that same day, male number. one, this Matthew Les texted her,

quote, "My ex told me, I'm being labeled. an assaulter in the public eye. I was. going to ask if you may have said. something along those lines to someone, but I know you wouldn't.". Then she responds, quote, "I had a. friend who was going to Kaiifi and I. said, don't, but I've never mentioned. your name.". He uh she also then writes to him, "I. haven't said anything, but I do know. people are changing the narrative. because like in any sexual scenario with.

one woman and many men, the woman was. probably the victim.". You can see it's changing. Right. It's changing. But she doesn't. say, "You raped me." What she doesn't. say to Matthew Engles is, "You and your. friends raped me. I was out of my mind, drunk, and high." The next day, November. 8th, he asked for a phone call. And by. this point, she's been to the, you know, in for a rape exam.

She said she was done talking to him and. that she knew he quote lied. ABC says. it's unclear what she was referring to. when she says he quote lied. He asked. what she meant and asked her to call and. she answered quote no never again. I. mean he he must have known he was effed. by this point. About a week later she. gave a sworn statement to Cornell police. saying she felt incapacitated, declined. some of the sexual activity, and that.

the encounters quote felt like coercion. She of course then filled out a six-page. statement in which we believe she did. not accuse them of rape explicitly. um and did recount multiple instances of. turning down certain sex acts that night. and so on. You know her whole story. seemed to in indicate. consciousness and ability to control her. conduct which is deeply problematic for. any prosecutor trying to prosecute this.

as a rape case. So, those are the. reveals um that we got overnight about. the text messaging. And you can see. exactly what I predicted yesterday. She did this. You know, we used to call. used to call it Sunday morning regrets. back in my day. She felt like a. She tried to laugh it off. She felt. ashamed. She was still talking to. Matthew, the one she liked. She felt. like maybe something could happen there.

And then that idiotic university. president barred her from the Ki party. Honestly, I realize this isn't the main issue. I'm. just saying how stupid can you. be? And um I think that really set her. off. She had the roommate in her ear. saying, "This sounds like rape to me.". Um, and slowly but surely she was getting. pissed off because word was getting. around campus and clearly the guys had.

talked and she didn't really want that. You know, at first with them she's like, "Well, sex and sexuality are changing.". But but what she really wanted was for. people not to know what she did because. even in 2024 then America there was a. judgment attached to repeated group sex. three threesomes in a night, which is. kind of a relief to find out that. there's still judgment around that. And. now here we are. Now, here we are. She.

filed the civil lawsuit. Again, we're. going to find out who she is. I do. believe she's the gal from Alabama that. is being named online. I'm not naming. anybody, not being absolutely sure who. it is, but there's one woman from. Alabama. I mean, people, the online. sleuths basically figured out who was in. Tridelt at the time, and there were only. about 50 young women. And then they. figured out who didn't stay at Cornell. because this gal did not stay at. Cornell. And then they got it down to. about 10 or 12. Then they figured out.

who was from a town about a thousand. miles away from Cornell because she. alleges in the complaint that she was. from a small town around 1,000 miles. away. And that made the list even. shorter. Um then they started to do. further detective work like. who stopped posting on Instagram around. this time etc. And they did get to a. name again we don't know that it's this. person who's being named but she is this. person who they the internet believes it. is is from Alabama and Jane Doe hired a.

lawyer who's admitted in Alabama who who. may be from Alabama the main guy who's. representing her on the case. So he's. got a New York address and he's got an. Alabama address. So that's interesting. too. Uh, I guess she lives in New York now, but query that connection. Why would she. be hiring? Why would a New York. plaintiff be hiring an Alabama lawyer? And look, I I stand by what I said. yesterday. I just don't think there is any reason.

when you are talking about a civil. lawsuit asking for money. to protect the identity of a woman. alleging rape. when she names all of the. defendants there there is this has to. stop. We are treating women like it's. the handmaid's tale and that you know. there's a paternalistic society that. controls everything around them and that. somehow they're to blame for even for. the real victims. You know let's say she. she actually is a real victim and all of.

this is true. They gang raped her. There's no shame on the victim. We we. have been saying that we won't say the. names of rape victims for a long long. time now because they get shamed. Why do. they get shamed? It's not a rape. victim's fault when she gets raped. It's. the the shame is on the defendant. So. this whole policy can't comes out of an. anacronistic understanding of this. paternalistic society and how a woman's. chasteed reputation must be maintained.

And I'm I'm sorry, but we are equal. participants with equal power in society. now. And this rule is outdated. It's. actually a sexist rule. Sexist against. women, treating them as like the fairer. sex that doesn't have equal power in. America. And the way it's being applied. here and in many other cases is it's. unfair to the male defendants. That's. it's another serious problem of doing. this. No, I'm not sure if I would feel.

this way if there had just been criminal. charges brought against these guys. Um. because that's I mean I don't know. It's. probably the same feeling. But for sure. when it's a civil lawsuit and the the. person's trying to get money, she's. like, "Pay me like I want to get paid.". And by the way, let's not not forget. this woman never went back to the DA. She never went back and said, "Now I. have a Snapchat message. Please look at. this and consider charging." She never. used her lawyer to say, "Please reopen. the case. Why don't you interview me?". You never did. She went right to the.

tort claim with her palm out asking for. money. I just don't see there's no. ethical impediment stopping any media. person from naming her. So, we'll find out who she is some point. soon, I'm sure. And it's unclear whether. the New York courts will even allow her. to maintain that cloak of anonymity, though it being New York, I would. imagine they will. Can we talk about. picky eaters for a second? If you've got.

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takelean.com. There was a Lindsey Clancy hearing on. Tuesday and nothing much happened. because it was a status hearing and they. did not really take on the issue of the. hold out juror and what should happen to. him. Kevin Readington is out for that. guy's scalp. But there was some talk around it and. the nation's jaw collectively dropped. when Kevin Readington. suddenly after a whole trial of. admitting was never in doubt that his.

client Lindseay Clancy had murdered her. three children suddenly injected new. doubt into that question or tried to. inject new doubt into that question uh. with the following sound side 11. >> Where is the evidence that she did this? The evidence is that she cut her wrists, cut her throat, standing in front of the. mirror, blood drops, then went over to. the window and propelled herself out of.

the window. Your honor heard evidence. that she indicated that the screen was. cut. Your honor also heard evidence that. in fact the screen was not cut. Your. honor could infer, obviously, as a. rational jury could infer that in fact. this is a false memory that she had. because she believes that the screen was. cut and it wasn't. But in any event, she. propels herself out the window and. sustains the injuries that your honor is. well aware that she sustained. Your honor recalls looking at the blood. spatter evidence and the drops on the.

floor. Where are the smears from a. person who has just cut their wrist, cut. their throat, is in a state of psychosis. that throws themsel out a window? Where. are the smears from that person walking. across the blood up to the window? What? What are you saying? You already. admitted this at the trial. Now he's. trying to do a defense on the merits. like she might not have done it. like.

actual innocence. He's getting like. crazed with his power. He's drunk on his. own wine. Now, after that 11 person. jury, minus the hold out, um that 11. people on the jury decided to that they. were ready to vote not guilty by reason. of mental defect or insanity. Look at. him. He's like, I'm going for the. straight allout innocence now. Okay, a little preview of what trial. number two is going to look like. He. doubled down just in case they think.

that was a one-off here in ST 12. >> This entire case is based on. speculation. Where is the admission? Where does she. say that she did this? And what's most. chilling is the fact. >> you said it. >> that when she comes out of this obvious. coma that she is in that when she comes. out of it your honor heard the testimony. from the psychiatrist and from the. doctors at Brigham Women's Hospital.

She was told what happened. She had no. memory of what happened. Why does she recall cutting the screen? Why does she recall killing the children. where she's told what happened and had. no memory? There's no evidence that she. admitted that she did this. So, you have. no evidence from the defendant in. Massachusetts. An uncroborated statement. of a defendant obviously is not.

evidence. You have to have. corroboration. I submit to the court. there is no evidence she made any. statements as far as the actual killing. of the children which forms the basis of. the indictments. This is so crazy. He's trying to. relitigate the whole case now. Okay, your trial is over. It ended in a. mistrial. Your client is likely to be. retrieded. You are trying to stop that, but there is a 99% chance it gets. retrieded unless you and the prosecutor.

can come to some agreement. But he is. going to reindict her short of that. And. at that trial, you can go for this. argument, Kevin Readdington, and argue. actual innocence. for some reason you. failed to in trial number one. And maybe. you're now going to get attacked as. having provided ineffective assistance. Maybe Lindsey Clancy is going to. actually appeal the mistrial or the the. grant of one, saying I was ineffectively. assisted by this idiot who gave up the. farm by not arguing that I was actually. innocent. Um, which is what he did.

Don't trust me. Here's a sound bite for. you with Kevin Readington. Then versus. now. Watch. >> This is a woman. that did not get the medication, did not get the medical treatment that. she so deserved. This is a woman that. was suffering from. psychosis at the time that she went down.

to that basement. Where's the evidence that she did this? Where is the evidence that she did this? >> Okay. What happened in the basement is. the murders. I mean, there's just been. no question that she did it all along. That the husband like his testimonial. like everyone knows she did it. Uh, and. Kevin Readington did not dispute did not.

dispute and admitted. um that she was in the basement, that. she was she was under psychosis when she. went down to the basement. That's that. was the defense. It's very strange. And. he was asked about this reversal when he. went on the show of our pal Billy Bush. Hot Mics on Tuesday. Watch here 14. today. It felt to me, you know, honestly, that you opened the door a. little bit to what actually happened and.

and and his involvement again. Did you. go one way back and then the other way? >> No. No, not at all. Again, as I already. said, what I did was argued exactly what. I argued in my closing to the jury, exactly what I argued in motions for. required finding. The government has to. prove probable cause. I don't care. Full. stop. Whatever the case may be, if they. can't prove the guilt of the citizen. based on their investigation, that. person's entitled to a not guilty,

regardless of what a defense may be. And. this investigation was so horrific, so. atrocious that it just defies, it. boggles the the mind why this. investigation ended up the way it did. So, I had to raise that issue on the. motion for a required finding. Okay. But you blew it because you didn't. raise it in the trial and chief. And in. fact, what we heard in the trial and. chief was testimony from Patrick Clancy,

the victim's father, uh, about Lindsay's call to him a week. after the murders. Quote, she said she. heard a man's voice telling her that if. she didn't do it now, she would lose her. chance or something like that. I mean, this they gave up the farm on. this one. Get it together, sir. Okay, get it together. It's ridiculous. She did it. Good luck trying to persuade. a jury otherwise.

Um, there's news about the hold out. juror. He, as you may know, issued a statement. on tape saying, "I didn't have any. doubt. Actually, I had no doubt." And. then his attorneys went on Hannity on. Tuesday and they are none too happy with. Kevin Readington for bismerching their. client as a lying felon accusing him of. lying under oath which is a felony. repeatedly.

just for doing his civic duty. Listen. here 15. >> Oh Sean I can tell you we're going to. file a bar complaint. Look, he filed um. in in his words that we just heard a. second ago, he said that all he's done. is file a motion. Well, even if you take. that as true, which it it obviously. isn't. The motion that he filed was. unprecedented. You don't attack jurors. this way. You don't single them out. And. we're going to file a bar complaint. >> I want your audience to know. I want you.

to know that that's happening. >> Absolutely. >> And here's the hold out juror himself. Hi, my name is Michael Peggy Desonville, also known as the lawn juror. I know the whole focus has been on me, but we want to reel everything back and. put the focus on the three angels that. is that's at hand. The ones that can't. speak for themselves, the ones that. can't defend themselves, and the one. that can't fight the battles, and those are Kora, Dawson, and Ken.

A little bit about me. I want to thank. God for my Catholic faith. I want to thank God for blessing me with. the ability to love my daughter. And I'm foremost I would like to thank. everyone, every individual that have. support me throughout this difficult. situation. Your prayers, your emotional support, your psy psychological support is a.

tremendous to my heart that I feel, that. I sense, that I know. I do want to thank. you from the bottom of my heart. Thank. you. >> There you go. They're filing bar. complaint against Kevin Readington as. well. They should. How dare he accuse a. juror of committing a felony in the. middle of the trial because he won't. come to a verdict along the lines that.

defense council wants. That is so. outrageous. And now he has spent weeks. attacking and defaming this private. citizen. It's just beyond the pale. And. honestly, all of the defense lawyers and. prosecutors in Massachusetts should join. in this motion. They should make a an. example out of this guy. The judge. should throw the book at Kevin. Readington. He should be outraged, this.

judge in this case, and the bar should. throw the book at him in the ethical. proceeding. There is zealous advocacy, which is expected of every lawyer. And. then there is harassment. of a juror proceeding in good faith. This is this is deeply wrong. The. attorney um went on to speak a bit about. what has happened to Michael Desanville, the hold out juror since Kevin. Readington began his nonsense here. S.

>> his life has changed dramatically. He. has been docked. He has been threatened. He has been harassed. But as I've said, Michael is absolutely indestructible. He will not be broken by this. And he. has remained calm, cool, and collected. And the man that you saw on that video. is Michael. Michael is a man of devout. Catholic faith who loves his daughter,

cares very deeply about the three. innocent children who were murdered. and is somebody who cares also very. deeply about the United States. Constitution and following the law and. following the evidence. This just so insane. So the drama there. goes on and on and doesn't look like. it's coming to a close anytime soon. there will be a hearing about the the. holdout juror. It was rescheduled. because they hadn't copied his lawyers.

and given them enough time to respond to. all the allegations swirling around him. So, they asked for that to be postponed, which was accommodated by the lawyers, the prosecution and defense. But, we. will be getting to that and when we do, we will have it covered for you. Okay. There is other legal news that we need. to get to on a case we spent a fair. amount of time on last week, which was. the murder accusations against so-called. pastor, music pastor, worship pastor. Caleb Flynn. This guy in Ohio who was.

married to Ashley for 15 years. They. have two daughters. And this is the guy. who had tried out for American Idol but. failed. and who said his wife was just so very. pretty, Ashley. And he loved her so much. and she encouraged him to try out for. American Idol, but he failed. And then. 15 years later, I guess her good looks. had waned in the in his eye because he. started banging some 20-year-old who.

frequented his church, Alia. and he had. an affair with Alia for some two years. or so, 18 months to two years. And this. is this is Caleb and his wife Ashley. And this Alia. and he had over 100,000 text messages. with one another referring to poor. Ashley as quote douche and and. other choice terms. Both of them called. her that. By the way, all the testimony.

was that Ashley was such a lovely person. and the text messages from her to Caleb, her husband, showed somebody who was. actually quite sweet and loving. She clearly at one point found out about. the affair because at one point she said. like, "Where are you?" And he said he. was working and she said, "Be honest, are you with her?" I mean, but like can. you imagine most of us would have been. like driving there in our bathroes with. our, you know, moisturizer all over our.

face, banging on whatever door he said. he was behind. Like it would not be are. you with her? It would be I'm going to. kill this person. Not really, but just like yell at. Anyway, he shot his wife twice in the head as. she lay sleeping and then tried to claim. that an intruder had come in through the. garage door while he was out of the room. in with the daughters and he was shock. shocked. They had a fan on and they. didn't hear it and you know he just. couldn't believe it and he called 911. and you know got the worst actor award.

for his ridiculous histrionics and. within days was arrested and in the. closing argument his lawyer went for it. um really went for it and went after. Alia and basically tried to tell the. jury, "How do you know she didn't do it, which was a good card he should have. played even harder during the course of. the trial, but here's a bit of that in. ST 17. >> The judge is going to provide you. instructions and basically the bottom. line is you can believe or disbelieve.

all or any part of any witness's. testimony. So, let's do a little test. Should we. believe Aaliyah? If you believe that she was a virgin and. cheated Caleb, I have some swamp mind. I. would like to sell you. And then you have the unmitigated call. to lie to the FBI.

Okay. She want to save her reputation. counteract. The issue here isn't whether he was a. good husband. Was he an. or any other label you want to put on. him? Bad husband. That's not the issue.

Absent real evidence that doesn't equal. murder. So there you go. If you could if you. could not hear it, he asked, "Should we. believe Alia? If you believe that she. was a virgin when she did Caleb, I have. some swamp land. I would like to sell. you." Okay. Well, was the jury persuaded that they. should find him not guilty because Aia. may have done it. Here's the verdict. Sad 18. >> We the jury in this case, being duly.

impanled and sworn find the defendant. Caleb C. Flynn guilty of aggravated. murder as charged in count one of the. indictment. We the jury in this case. being duly impanled and sworn find the. defendant Caleb C. Flynn guilty of. murder as charged in count four of the. indictment at this time. Jordan number. one, Mr. Applegate. >> Were these verdicts your own? >> Yes. >> Okay. Thank you, Miss Atkins. Were these verdicts your own?

>> Yes. Members of the jury, you are now. discharged from your duties. Thank you. Miss Oendorf, if you would walk out, >> the defendant who has been crying more. than John Boehner at a tearful event, um, has been in tears the entire time. And of course, when his own fate was. determined, he blubbered like a small.

toddler. Uh, he will now be going to. prison, and no one gives a that he. is upset about it. So, goodbye, Caleb. Flynn. I wish you no good luck. I. actually hope you do not enjoy prison. Uh, but that some of your prison fellow. prisoners do enjoy your stint there. And. I'll just leave it at that. Um, I want. to give you the latest on Presley Gerber. because there's news via TMZ on that. today. And it's unbelievable, guys. It's. unbelievable.

So, you know, all along we've been. having I I had questions about why was. he in this what kind of a rehab can you. OD in, you know, and I told you that I. had a loved one who went to Karen rehab. here in the Northeast and you could not. get anywhere near there with anything. even approaching. intoxicating in your bag or for your. loved one. Stuff that, you know, you. would never think would be used as a. drug. um would be confiscated from you as a. visitor. So, I didn't understand this.

And then it turned out he wasn't at a. rehab facility. He was at a like a sober. house, which is much much short of a. rehab. Okay. I don't I still didn't. understand why they would take somebody. who's an active addiction quite clearly, and put him in a sober house. And now. TMZ is reporting on that and it's it's. pretty it's pretty clear now. Um. TMZ reports that Presley Gerber did have.

a sober coach. Remember I had said why. not have a sober coach? There is. somebody you can pay to like follow you. around when you're really vulnerable to. make sure you don't drink. He did have a. sober coach. Uh they say he had a sober. coach. The sober co coach had planned to. take Presley to an rehab facility, an. actual rehab facility. the following. Monday, but needed to put him somewhere. over the weekend. So, he took him to. this place called Resolutions and just. left him there. Here is Harvey Lean.

expanding on Presley's last hours. Saw. 22. >> I want to tell you what I know about. Presley Gerber's death, and I know a. lot. Um, I want to start with the. Saturday morning before he died, 24. hours before he was found dead. Um, Presley Gerber was in a therapy group uh. with other men and was very open about. his struggles, about his personal life,

about uh his battle with substances. Um. that morning uh I am told he was fine. He was not high. It changed midday. Um. there were people who had contact with. him in the middle of the day on. Saturday. Uh and it became apparent that. Presley Gerber started to circle the. drain. He was clearly high and scared.

Um what people around him told me is. that he was actually scared that. something bad was going to happen to him. and felt a need uh to get some help. Now, he was with a sober coach at least. part of the day. And at around six. o'clock in the evening on Saturday, um. that sober coach, we're told, um.

contacted Resolutions Living. The sober. coach, we're told, contacted Resolutions. and said, "I want to bring Presley in, but I need you to know that he's high.". And the facility said, um, bring him in. Just bring him in. Presley Gerber is in. this house and. nobody is looking. Where is the sober.

coach? If the sober coach knows that he. was high going in, where is the sober. coach in all of this? because based on. what we know, it appears that sober. coach was nowhere in sight. >> So, he got dumped there by a sober. coach. And TMZ also obtained this video. of Presley, which they say he took of. himself Saturday evening around 1000.

p.m. He would he would only have what, 12 hours to live. He looks very thin. It's being shot on the side and then. back up. It looks jumpy, TMZ says, because they had to slow it down, but. he's showing his room. It's supposed to. be luxury accommodations. And I don't know whether this was posted. or just found on his phone. I mean, honestly, if this was just on his phone, then they got this from his family, which is very strange. I Why would the.

family be leaking videos of Presley. Gerber to TMZ? Um perhaps he posted it on his social. media and then took it down. We didn't. see it and we checked the social media. right away. Uh I don't know. Don't know. how how we got our hands on this, but it. is disturbing to see Presley Der Gerber. within hours of his death when he had no. family around him, clearly no friends, and no sober coach to protect him. It's.

very sad. They also TMZ did caught up with this. Dr. Raza Nambavei who owns Resolutions. and they asked him why would you admit. somebody while Hi, I'm just going to. show you just a little bit of this. thought 24. >> Doctor, why would you admit Presley. Gerber into your sober house if you knew. he was he was high? >> Is there anything you could say to the. public?

>> That's it. She keeps firing questions at. him and he keeps walking away because he. knows all of this is deeply problematic. Um, more on that as we get it and we. will see you again tomorrow. Thank you. for tuning in.