Austin Metcalf's Father Speaks, Plus False Karmelo Narratives, and Blake Lively Legal Fees Ruling

Hey everyone, I'm Megan Kelly. Welcome. to the Megan Kelly show. Happy Friday. And on this Kelly's court day, we're. going to have Mark Geragos and Arthur. Idala coming up in just a minute. But we. begin today with the continued fallout. from the Carmelo Anthony guilty verdict. In just moments, we are going to be. speaking one-on-one with Jeff Metaf. He's the father of Austin Metaf, uh the. young 17-year-old boy who was killed by. Carmelo Anthony for no reason. Uh there. have been vile attacks on the Metaf.

family in the wake of Austin's murder. It is the strangest phenomenon I have. seen in recent years where this. community has turned on the victim's. family. They've done nothing other than. mourn their son. And there are literally. people posting the most vile things. about what they'd like to do to Austin's. grave, to Austin's brother, his twin. brother Hunter, to Jeff Metaf, his dad,

to his mom. It's something very bizarre. is happening with this case. We'll talk. about it and we'll talk with Jeff Metaf. about this entire case in just a moment. But we're going to start with something. that we've been wanting to do as this. case has unfolded and the parents of. Carmelo Anthony have come out and tried. to spin a narrative. Um, a little fact. check is in order because the other. reporters refuse to do their jobs. They.

get these parents in front of them, Carmemelllo Anony's, and they allow them. to spew lies about the Metaf family or. this case, and there's no challenge. because no one will do any homework. No. one does their homework, and they just. want to allow them to spin this. narrative, and it's So, we're. not going to do that here. We are going. to correct the record so that you know. what's real and what's not. We played a. few clips yesterday, but we're going to. we're going to play a few more today. All right. Now, it began with the.

parents of Carmelo Anthony, the. murderer. Their description of the. aftermath of the murder where they claim. that Hunter Metaf, the surviving twin, is lying about his twin brother, Austin. Metaf, dying in his arms. We played this. yesterday from an interview with the. Breakfast Club's Mimi Brown, but here it. is again. Watch. >> Did Carmelo want to get his story out. more to the public as well? >> He was He was trying to listen in. He. was trying to listen to what he was.

being advised, >> you know, the hey, don't make it about. race, don't do this, don't don't do. this. So, we like all right, we go. again. We we we. played the the game they wanted. We did. everything the law by the citizen post. They told us don't do this. We did we. did everything we we supposed to. And he. wanted people. You of course he wanted. somebody. You got they got pictures of. him being 17 with a dress on saying.

he'll be raped in jail. Like all kind of. these adult adults are talking about. this child, but nobody's seeing it. Like. nobody's seeing it. So we can't say. anything. The the other family, they go. paint this lie that nobody exposed that. he died in his brother arms. And it was. all. >> that's not true. Cuz that is a. narrative. Yeah. >> No. No. you never heard it no more. That. that was that was a lot. >> Neither of those parents was actually.

there uh at the track meet and Carmelo's. mom, Kayla Hayes, who you saw there, said she had been planning to go to the. track meet, but decided not to because. of the weather. So, she wasn't there. We. know that for a fact. Hunter was there. He's been 100% consistent in describing. what happened. Here he is with Fox's. Will Kaine the day after the murder. stepped up over there, asked him to. move, got aggressive. He grabbed the bag. and then I I whipped my head around and. then all of a sudden I see him running.

down the bleach just grabbing his chest, just blood rushing out, you know. He. said, "Yo, he got stabbed. He got. stabbed." First I froze for half a. second. I didn't know what to do. And. then I I I saw him by the fall. I went. to go over there. I grabbed him. I see. [sighs and snorts]. this stuff. >> You can picture what what happened when. you know what was what was coming out of. his chest and. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Y'all can visualize that stuff. I don't.

want to put that on my mom right now. But I put my hand I pushed my hand on. there trying to make it stop and I. grabbed his head and I looked in his. eyes. I just. I just saw his weave and it took my soul. too. I saw his soul leave and it took my soul. too. He tried to save his twin brother. He. couldn't. Described holding him. How. dare this family go out there and try to.

question his account as a lie. That. what? They know nothing. They know. absolutely nothing. Hunter was not asked to take the witness. stand during the course of the trial. But the testimony given did back up his. version of events. The prosecution's. fifth witness in the case was Joshua. Redmond, an Army veteran and defensive. coordinator at Liberty High School. Redmond testified that he noticed the. commotion and he ran to the scene after. Carmelo stabbed Austin. According to NBC.

V in Dallas, Redmond had to move Hunter. away from Austin's body. Uh, and that. Hunter was quote freaking out, move him. away so that they could give him medical. care. After seeing Austin's wounds, Redmond. testified, quote, "I knew he was gone.". Now, look at what Carmemella's dad told. CBS's Jonah Kaplan about the jury. >> Take us inside that courtroom. What. stuck out to you? >> What stuck out to me number one was the.

all-white jury, but I was trying to be, you know, like, all right, it's not that. big of a deal. I mean, the truth is on. our side. Okay, this is totally false. First of. all, the truth was never on their side. ever. The the truth is his son murdered. somebody in cold blood for no reason. That's going to land everyone in jail. for decades minimum. This kid got off. easy with the 35ear sentence. Easy. He. easily could have been put away for. life. I was just listening to a case in.

Nebraska. If you commit a murder, you go. it away for life. Period. That's it. That's that's the penalty you get in. Nebraska. You you take somebody's life. in a murder, you're going away for life. A life for a life. That's how it works. He is so lucky that he got only 35 years. and could be eligible for for parole in. 17. He could get out of jail at age 34. with time served. I mean that you got. your whole life ahead of you, which is. more than we can say for poor Austin.

Metaf. But putting that to the side, it. is a lie that this was an all-white. jury. This is a lie being spun by race. hustlers who want to stoke up racial. animous in the wake of this totally just. verdict. There were no black people on. the jury, but it wasn't all white. Oh, by the way, why were there no black. people on the jury? Because we had black. jurors testifying. I'll give you an. example, potential black jurors, um, testifying things like this. Quote, "I. don't know if I'd feel right putting a.

brother in jail. Yes, you will be. dismissed from the jury every single. time for that kind of nonsense. Sir, that's why we had no black people on the. jury. It wasn't because the prosecution. was biased or didn't like black people. or didn't think black people could come. to a sane, just verdict. But you can't. put any juror, black, white, Hispanic, or otherwise, on the jury with. statements like that. Irrespective, this was not an all-white.

jury. There were multiple minorities. According to Fox News Digital, of the 12. jurors, there were three racial. minorities, including Asian and Indian. Eight were women, four were men. Of the. 18 total jurors, including alternates. So, when they, you know, cast you back. there, when they choose the 18, the. prosecution and the defense have no idea. uh who's going to be whom. Um, six were. minorities. So, everybody needs to knock. it off with this all-white jury. narrative. It's not true.

All right. And now here's more from. Carmelo Anony's parents here, the. mother, Kayla, who had this to say about. the witnesses at trial. >> All of the witnesses statements and. stories were inconsistent. So, we thinking that the jury is going. to notice that, >> but they already had their mind made up. when they sat in that courtroom. THEIR. MIND WAS MADE UP ALREADY. >> All right. First of all, this idiot.

doing the interview is sitting there. with about 10,000 pounds of false. eyelashes on just nodding herself. Yes. Her head yes. I guarantee you this woman. didn't watch two minutes of the trial. She's just going with the narrative. That is her preferred narrative. She. doesn't know anything. She has no idea. whether the witnesses were consistent or. not. Clearly, I I understand the. mother's grief at what has happened with. her son, but that your job as a reporter. is to stay factual and to not facilitate. lies on your air. I realize it's quote.

the Breakfast Club, which nobody's. really turning to for truly factual. coverage about a trial, but do better, madam. If you're going to get into this. game, do better. The witnesses were consistent. They just. all went against Carmelo's case. Here's. the Daily Mail's Marann Martinez, who. was in the courtroom, posting on X. Friday. Quote, "We have now heard from. six teens who were at the stadium the. day Austin Metaf was stabbed by Carmelo. Anthony. Four out of the six are black.".

All have testified that Carmemelllo. Anthony was asked to leave the Memorial. High School team tent, provoked Austin. Metaf, and pulled a knife before or. while Austin had even pushed Carmelo. There was total consistency on that. And. here's what Maryanne reported Saturday. They had uh the trial on Saturday, which. was unusual, but it happened. Quote, "Today, we've heard from five additional. kids. Six yesterday, five today in the. Carmelo Anthony trial. They're all.

telling the same story. Carmemelllo was. not known or wanted underneath the. Memorial High School tent. Multiple kids. asked him to leave and he refused.". The truth is, whatever inconsistencies. there were of note came from the defense. witnesses. One defense witness had to. admit he was wrong when he told police. that Carmelo was surrounded in the tent. before the stabbing. He'd been trying to. paint a picture like these kids from.

Memorial High School had been like. ganging up on him, surrounding him, and. therefore he was threatened. That was. He was forced to concede on. the stand that Carmemelllo was only. surrounded after he stabbed and murdered. Austin Metaf from CBS Texas. Quote, "Prosecution, you had a few things wrong. when we talked. Is that right, witness?". "Yes, sir." "Prosecution, your initial. statement to police that you saw. Carmemelllo Anthony surrounded had to be. after the stabbing." "Yes," said the. witness. "You had a story in your head.

when we visited, correct?" "Yes." After. a few more lines of questions, they. continued. Prosecution, my impression. when we first met, you thought when you. saw people surrounding Carmelo Anthony, it was before the stabbing. Yes, sir. That was actually after the stabbing, asked the prosecutor. Witness, I. couldn't really tell. Prosecution, when. you and I met, you told me you thought. it was before the stabbing. Witness, I. thought it was as the stabbing was. happening. Prosecution, you know you're.

wrong. Witness: Yes. Yes, sir. And then moving on, we get this story. from Carmelo's father that Carmelo. wasn't trying to leave the scene after. he plunged a knife for no reason into. Austin Metaf's heart. That he simply had. just gone over to a teacher for a hug. after this dastardly deed. Watch. And so. the video that you all uh that that they.

they show showed in court, it it it it. shows him running away from. >> Yeah. He he ran to a teacher. The. teacher said that the teacher he ran to. he ran to a guy and the teacher he ran. to actually um. um he hugged him cuz [sighs] he's not. like he he hugged the guy like he was. freaking out. He hugged the guy. So the. guy would they they was hugging. He was.

crying hysterically and. um. they tried to paint it as if he was. trying to leave. >> But then in court court they should have. said it that he wasn't [clears throat]. trying to leave. >> Yeah. >> What would be a good way of getting that. testimony in um in order to give your. son's defense? maybe put him on the. witness stand, but you chose not to do. that. You chose not to make the case.

that it was self-defense through. Carmelo, nor that he didn't flee through. Carmelo. You you just you want to get your your. helpful facts out now after the trial's. over. That's not how it works, sir. Now, what he said there is partially true. based on witness testimony, but it. leaves out some key facts. See, according to CBS Texas, Carmemelllo only. went to that teacher after he was first. stopped by Memorial High School athletic. trainer Tiffany Whitaker. The teacher, who is Heritage High School coach.

Vincent Hooper, testified that Whitaker. handed Anthony to him, saying, "Do not. let him leave." That's also according to. CBS Texas. He wasn't just looking for a. supportive hug. He was not free to leave. because they realized he had just. committed a murder. And here's more color from Sarah Fields. on X. Quote, Tiffany Whitaker, the. athletic trainer with Memorial High. School, testified that she got in front. of Anthony as he was running, put her. hands up to keep him from leaving, and.

yelled at Coach Vincent Hooper, "Hey, this kid stabbed someone. Don't let him. leave." This is when Coach Hooper put. his arms around Carmelo in a hugging. fashion to prevent him from leaving the. stadium. That's. that's what happened. That's what the. testimony was at trial. And yet this. Drew Anthony gets up there to say, and. you saw the long pause. That's the long. pause of a liar searching for a story.

And he spoonfed it to this. to say, "Oh, you just needed a hug. Where was her homework?" to say, "Wrong, sir." The trial testimony suggested he. was stopped physically by a coach who. had just received a holler from someone. else saying, "Stop him. He just stabbed. someone." This is ridiculous. All right. Here. Here, moving on, is. what Carmemelllo's parents had to say. about Carmelo not taking the witness. stand. Watch.

>> And did Carmelo want to testify in his. own uh on his own behalf and and was. >> it was based on everything. He didn't. need nothing because everything they. said on his self-defense, they have to. prove it. They never prove. >> Okay. So, that was never that was. because I know there was this pause and. a lot of people thought that, you know, uh we were going to come back and he was. going to take the stand and he didn't. So, that was never an option. That had. never been discussed of him taking the. stand. >> That's why we just need a a new we need.

we need somebody who's going to fight. >> That's what I can say right now. We just. need somebody going to uh fight for him. >> It's not an answer [clears throat]. >> because their whole thing was he. provoked it. Um that was their whole. their entire case. He provoked it. That's that's um that's what the whole. thing was. >> That's not an answer. Okay. She she said.

she's asking why I didn't take the. witness stand. He's just meandering. He. doesn't want to give it up. I'm telling. I'll tell you right now why he didn't. want to take the witness stand. He was. obviously going to make a terrible. witness. Terrible witness. And my. suspicion is it's because he has zero. regrets. He's not sorry at all. At all. He's an agrieved young man taught racial. grievance most likely from his parents. who hired the biggest race hustler in. Texas as their family spokesperson.

There is zero chance if Carmemelllo. Anthony would have made a compelling. witness if he really were the sweet kid. just running around looking for hugs. that he would not have wound up on that. stand, my friends. That's how you make a. self-defense defense. That's not what happened. A and what. he's saying there in any event is not. true. The jury not only convicted. Carmelo, they rejected his sudden. passion defense that would have knocked. down his conviction to only a. seconddegree felony. They just weren't.

buying what the defense was selling at. all. Have you noticed the shirts that they're. wearing, too? They say the parents here, #believe Carmelo. How are we supposed to. believe him if he didn't say anything in. his own defense? We have no idea what. Carmelo's position is. He hasn't spoken. one word. What do you mean believe. Carmelo? What the f is that? some weird. take on believe all women which was also.

This is there's no one to. believe. You people are I understand. upset parents but you don't deserve our. presumption of truth tellers. You. haven't earned it. We don't believe you. and your son has given us absolutely. nothing to hold on to whatsoever. And you heard in that soundbite some. animosity toward Carmelo's attorney, Mike Howard, who is white. They claimed. that's the reason that they hired them. him because they were advised to hire a.

white guy. Watch. >> Uh, everybody kept saying, "Hey, to beat. this, to beat this, I I went to some. black attorney." They're like, "Oh, you. need a white you need a white. >> uh attorney to go out there to fight out. there." Remember they were telling us, >> "So, do you believe your son received a. fair trial?" Um, absolutely not. >> Absolutely not. >> Absolutely not. And we going to keep. fighting. Mhm. >> Who would not stop. >> fighting for justice for my son? >> But was there at any point. >> that you felt the outcome was heading in.

this direction? >> No. >> Everybody lied. >> Look at the report. Everybody Everybody. >> Why didn't the defense call more. witnesses? >> That's not my department. And I. apologize for that. because there was no one who could help. him. Because all the witnesses, hello. Mimi, the white ones and the black ones, said it was exactly as.

Austin Metaf's defender said that. Carmelo Anthony went into a tent he. wasn't invited into. That the teams did. not sit together. It was highly unusual. for someone to do this. It was basically. considered a provocation that multiple. multiple people went over to Carmelo to. say, "Please leave, he wouldn't." That. when Austin, who'd been asked by a coach. to be a leader in the tent that day, keep order, make sure nothing happened.

that was going to lead to a bad result, that's why he wanted him to leave. I'm. sure Austin saw this could spiral into. something because it it was, you know, an enemy as the that term is used in. sports in your home camp. No one allows. that. Can you imagine a Spur getting up. at the Knicks game and going sitting. down on the Knicks bench? That doesn't. happen. So, he went over to say, "You need to. leave." And the first response was, I'm. an agrieved.

person who felt put upon like, you just. make me. You go ahead and try to make. me. See what happens. All right, tough. guy. Right. That's He was looking for a. fight. He knew he had a knife in his. bag. I've been saying for days now, I. could easily make the case as a. prosecutor that this whole thing was a. setup, that he went there with murder in. mind. Why else would he have brought. that knife in at to a track meet into a. tent? Why else would he have dared. Austin Metaf to put hands on him and.

then Austin does in a way that didn't. even knock him into the man next to him, Carmelo, and and his his aunt before he. can even be rattled in his seat. He's. got a knife in the guy's chest. Okay, that's the reason we didn't have. more witnesses. The lawyer for for. Carmelo Anthony was not talented. There's no question he wasn't. However, the reason there was not a parade of. witnesses is they did not exist. They. weren't there. He cannot manufacture. someone out of thin air. So now they.

seem to be saying they wanted more of a. fighter as an attorney. These people. raised over $600,000 on give for. Carmelo's defense. Lots of good lawyers. would have been eager to take that kind. of fee. Not to mention the publicity. this trial would generate. A lot of. lawyers love that. But instead, they. went with Mike Howard. Did they do any. research? Do they have access to Google? Because this is what Mike Howard posted. on February 4th, 2025, almost two months.

before Austin was murdered. Did he. telegraph, I will be a shark for you? I. will be fierce in a courtroom for you. I. will take no prisoners for you. You You. tell me. So, what kind of lawyer do you want? Do. you want uh an aggressive junkyard dog. who's going to fight for you hard, or do. you want somebody who has a reputation. as, you know, easy to get along with, uh, the answer might surprise you. Uh.

while of course it's important to have. somebody who fights for your rights and. stands up for you, if they are that. aggressive junkyard dog, the risk can be. that they end up being obnoxious or. offensive to judges, to prosecutors, and. even to juries if your case goes to. trial. I have cultivated a reputation at. the courouses in which I work as. somebody who fights for their clients. and if you go to trial, I'm going to. give you a a hard fought trial. Uh but.

who's easy to work with, easy to get. along with, and reasonable that ends up. benefiting my clients. >> Okay, I'm sorry, but you have yourselves to. blame. a concept with which you should. really familiarize yourselves. That you. have yourselves to blame for the way. your t son turned out, for the way his. trial turned out, for the way your lives. turned out. What happened to the.

$600,000, by the way? Where is that? Because just today, yesterday, he. already filed for an appeal of the. verdict and is pleading indigency that. he is quote penniless. So where's the. money? Did it all go to this guy, Mike. Howard, or did it go to your mansion. that you hung out in over the past year. while you claimed you were receiving. threats, driving around, living large? I. I'd love to know. Look, it's painfully. obvious that Carmemelllo Anony's parents. let him down in numerous ways. And I I.

want to end here, okay, on something. that is actually largely true that. Anony's f Drew Anthony said, watch. He. said it in court yesterday. Forgot. He. said that. They told my son to look at. me when I'm talking to you. >> Who said that? >> The dad. The son. Both of them said, "Look at me while while we talk to you.". Like, "Oh, it's going to come out." They. they said, "Look at me while we talk to. you." What?

Yeah, they they did say, "Look me in the. eyes." you I I don't know how Drew. Anthony knows that because he didn't. bother to show up during the sentencing. and victim impact statements. He. couldn't bother to be there for his son. in that moment. He pieced out of there. But back to what Drew claimed in that. soundbite. Yeah, Hunter Metaf, Austin's. twin, and Jeff, his dad, did reportedly.

ask Carmelo to look them in the eyes. during their victim impact statements, and Carmelo didn't. He only briefly. looked at Hunter one time. He couldn't. bear to look in the eye the people whose. lives he changed forever. He couldn't even give them that. courtesy. And this family has not only failed to. offer any courtesy or condolences to the. Metaf family, they are directly.

responsible for the hell that is that. was unleashed on them one year ago that. has been continuing ever since the day. their son was killed and that has gone. on steroids since this verdict, this. just supported verdict of guilty against. Carmelo Anthony. the community. that a faction of the black community in. Texas and a faction of the black. community that is in media has turned on.

the victims on this poor family still. suffering and tried to demonize them. somehow rooting. for. harm legal or otherwise to happen to the. twin brother Hunter. openly forgive me talking about. urinating. on Austin's grave, celebrating the. thought of it. It's despicable.

Joining us now is the man Carmelo could. [music] not seem to face, Jeff Metaf. He's the father of Austin Metaf. Don't miss a moment. Subscribe to this. show on YouTube and follow me on Insta, Facebook, and X. Every year I try to. find a Father's Day gift that actually. gets used for Doug, not something that. ends up forgotten in a drawer. This year. we're looking at Cozy Earth. Their. bamboo sheet set can completely change. how you sleep. They are unbelievably.

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everyday polo are designed to keep him. cool, comfy, and relaxed all summer. long. Head to cozyear.com. Use my code. Megan for an exclusive 20% off. That's. code Megan for an exclusive 20% off. And. if you see a post-purchase survey, mention that you heard about Cozy Earth. right here. Jeff, welcome to the show. I. am so so [music] sorry for your loss and. for what has been happening to your. family. >> Thank you for this time.

>> Can I just start with your reaction to. the disgusting blowback that your family. is receiving now for some reason in the. wake of this guilty verdict? Uh, I mean to be honest it doesn't make. any sense to me at all. Uh, if you're. just a average normal human being that. has empathy and compassion for your. fellow man, you don't act that way. The moral decay of society today is. rampant and the only people that can fix.

it are us, the ones who exist at this. very moment. to make sure you teach your. kids right from wrong. Uh, and guide. them and give and give them love and. guidance and and let them grow and. become a contributing factor of a member. of society. >> The moment the verdict came down and you. heard them say guilty, what what did you feel.

>> realistically? I mean, there was a sense of relief. and it was going to be a sense of relief. no matter what was said. I just needed. to get through this time frame of this. process. Um, it's been a long time uh. since my son was murdered and you know, not being able to speak while my dead. son's being uh drugged through the mud. Uh memes, pictures, but but let me let. me make one thing clear. uh that has.

went on from both sides and I don't. condone any of it. Uh I've seen the. things that they've made about Carmelo. and it it's disgusting. It's it's it's. just as vile as the things that are done. about my son and and and those people. that are so far left or so far right. that has the the need to attack a dead. child or a child that's going to prison. or a child any child. It doesn't sit well with me. Um, he's.

going to have to take the consequences. for his actions, but we don't need. piling on. I mean, this has been a. tragedy for both families. Um, unfortunately, you know, the Anony's. still continued to deflect from the. truth that the truth has has been out. there. Uh, the truth was exposed. Uh, there was no 411. There was no broken. phone. all the lies have been debunked.

Uh, and if they were at the trial during. sentencing or during impact statement, uh, they would have some more. information, but they chose to abandon. their child at that point and let him be. there by himself. Uh, that alone to me. says a lot about their parenting skills. and who they are as people. Uh, that's a. true reflection of their character. It. has nothing at all to do with me. Have you come to know anything about. Carmelo Anthony in the past year?

Because he's said nothing. All we've. seen from the parents is some racial. grievance and just fact revision that. bears no relation to what actually. happened inside the trial and the fact. that they represented themselves as a. with a with a spokesperson who is. undoubtedly a race hustler. He's been. injecting race into this case from the. very beginning. This Dominique. Alexander. So, do but have you a been. able to learn anything about Carmelo. Anthony this past year? >> No, ma'am. Nothing.

All I know is he was put on house arrest. and he got to enjoy his freedom as you. gets to stay at home and play video. games and eat pizza and have friends. over and gets to go to the library. Gets. to go get his haircut. Still basically. still gets to live until the trial. Uh I. knew nothing. I don't know where they. live. I don't they don't communicate. Um, I mean, ever since the press. conference when I came to try to bridge. the gap and they had me removed, you. know, Dominique Alexander proceeded to. gaslight me. Um, you know, he acted.

like, you know, he had this professional. security team, which actually he DPS has. already found him guilty of operating a. a security team that's not licensed. Uh, this person has floundered and all he. wants to do is uh infomercials for NG. He really is. I call him Minister. irrelevant because that's who he really. is. He just he wants his 15 minutes of. fame. He wants to give the Anony's bad. advice and take their money. And that's.

what he did. And from what I understand. now, there's maybe a little bit. infighting on that side of the camp. I. heard that Tiffany Bills was blaming. Dominique Alexander for the sentence. that he received. No, the sentence he. received was too light to begin with, but he's lucky he got 35 because as my. ex-wife pointed out, me, her, and. Hunter, and the rest of our family, we've all been served a life sentence. Not to mention if your son killed a.

black 17-year-old in this manner just st. shoving a knife in his heart after the. the the black boy had literally just. placed a hand on on your son. He. absolutely would have been sent to jail. for the rest of his life. There is just. no way this this they gave him a gift. with this 35 years old with this. sentence. He'll be out with good. behavior possibly by before he's 35. years old. So I I have no empathy for these claims. that this was somehow the the book was.

thrown at him or the sentence was. unjust. If it was unjust in any way, it. was unjust to Austin, not not to Carmelo. Anthony. This Dominique Alexander, the. family spokesperson, is a baby beater. He's a convicted baby abuser. He he. seems to get off crushing um little. two-year-old babies. And um that's not a. matter of dispute. Here he is this week. in reaction to the verdict on the late. night with Mama Mo'Nique podcast 20.

>> Carmelo is all of our babies. Most. people know him as a hashtag and a name. I know that baby. What matter is that a. baby was railroaded in a in a courtroom. >> He's he's a baby who was railroaded. This is the narrative that they're. spinning, Jeff. It's and and it's taking. hold as you've seen. I mean, I is it. stunning to you that there are people. out there believing this nonsense? >> No. There are people out there that.

voted for their polit favorite political. person based on color. It doesn't work. that way. I mean, let's just deal with. facts and truth, not spin webs to to. create narratives that benefit you. Let's just be truthful. You know, as he. always says, "Let me be clear." Well, he. can't be clear about anything other than. he can clearly lie, misrepresent, and grift.

from other people. That's his MMO. when your family was leaving the. courtroom the day of the verdict. and and you were followed by these. activists outside of the courthouse who. have been shouting the most vile things. about your deceased boy and you guys. possible and you had Hunter with you. What What was that like? >> Okay, we we need to clarify this. Okay,

that's not the truth. Okay, first of. all, uh. we were escorted in and out of the. courtroom uh with security and driven to. an off-site undisclosed location. Uh. what you're referring to were four. individuals who were friends of Hunter. and Austin's and they were coming after. the trial to meet us where we were at. the undisclosed location and there was a. >> clarification.

>> by the Colin County Courthouse as far as. security procedures and they let them. walk out without any protection. whatsoever. They were immediately. surrounded uh to trying to get to their. car. Uh and these are 17 18 year old. kids, friends of Hunter and Austin's. Uh. one was a female, three were male. Uh. the things they said, you know, we're. going to, you know, we're going to piss. on Austin's grave. You know, we're glad. that Austin's dead. Just continual vile.

outbreak and trying to really disturb. them and impede their progress. And you. know, they finally made it to the car. They made it to us. They were visibly. shaken, crying, uh upset. Uh I was. upset, but one because the security, the. lapse of security. Um but it just goes. to show how this certain set of a. certain subculture, and I mean very. small percentage, I'm not I'm not trying. to pick on any certain race, but I am I. am going to identify one subculture of a.

race that does continue this type of. behavior. I don't think it represents. the entire race. Um I I mean I have many. friends of different. different ethnicities, uh color, race, gender. Uh you know, like I said before, uh I am racist against I don't. care what color you are, but if you. treat me with disrespect, uh I will give. it back to you. Uh as far as the. Anony's, uh they're just in a constant.

state of denial. And I mean it's a hard. I mean it would be hard for me to accept. that my son is a murderer. But the. difference between me and them would be. I would hold my son accountable. I would. make him apologize and I myself would. reach out and apologize and ask is there. anything I can do. I am so sorry. This. is terrible. My son made a mistake. Yes, he did. He's going to have to pay for. it. But the lack of remorse, the the. lack of humility, and all you want to.

stand up there and give me some fake. crocodile tears, same ones I saw at the. press conference, that you're going to. try to el, you know, ask for sympathy or. more money or whatever you need. All I I. can tell you what you you need God in. your life. And if you and if you and if. you already have it, trust him and lean. into his understanding and and stop. spreading lies and just accept the. truth. The truth was presented in the. court. More than one, more than 10, more.

than 15, more than 20 people. testified. There was no. >> mistrial of justice. There was all white. jury. there was many minorities and and. and like you know you can't fill out. your form stating you're biased if you. expect to be picked as a juror that just. totally eliminates you. Um everything. about the thing was fair and to me I'm. not being able to speak. Did I feel like.

that was fair? No. while they all have. t-shirt sales and and. activists on Tik Toks every night. monetizing, making money, telling lies, and while I stand here and just have to. keep my mouth shut. Uh, my house has. been swatted. My ex-wife has been. swatted. They talk about the stuff. they've lived through. Now, yes, maybe you experienced something, but nothing on the level that we have. experienced. and and I feel sorry for.

them if they experience anything. And. like I said before, I don't condone uh. all the social media uh memes and and. derogatory comments because I know how. it feels because your side has done it. to me four times as much as they're. doing it to you. But either way, two. wrongs still don't make a right. So, you. know, uh crazy has no color. Love. doesn't see color. Hate doesn't see. color. Um, and for people to see the.

color, they really should look at. themselves in the mirror and re-evaluate. who you are and how are you a piece of. society? Are you a part of the problem? Are you part of the solution? So, you. know, hopefully in this world, I'm I. probably only got another 20, 30 years, but I'm more worried about the future. and what we're teaching our children. right now. And I'm sorry if you teach if. I I can only hop. I can only guess if that boy was raised.

differently maybe. I don't know why. And. the biggest question that really I'll. never get answered uh is why. Why did. you not get up on the stand and tell. your story if this was true? Why did you. not defend yourself? Why did you And. it's your whole case is about. self-defense, but yet you chose not even to defend. yourself and your parents abandoned you. during sentencing and and victim impact. statement.

Actions speak louder than words. I don't. have to say anything. You guys smear your own name without me. having to point it out. Everybody in. America sees how we're all acting and. it's it's a damn shame. That spoke. volumes when the parents wouldn't. wouldn't even stand there and there was. nobody else. I mean, his who did his son. have like the parents abandoned their. son at the at the toughest moment when. he was going to find out how much of his. life was going to be spent in a cage. They pieced out. Have they said that.

they're sorry at all? Jeff, has anyone. from the from the Anthony family reached. out to you or any of your family members. to apologize, to express regrets, to see. how you are throughout this whole thing? >> No, ma'am. Not one time. >> Wow. And how about now? Do you feel safe in. your own home? Does your ex-wife feel. safe in hers? Your son? I mean, are you. >> Well, I mean, I can't feel threatened at. all. >> I can't speak for my ex-wife, but um I.

myself uh yeah, I'm I'm very safe. I. mean, I'm. I am not worried about my personal. safety. Um I'm able to protect myself. Um, it would be a a it would be another. devastating travesty if someone was to. try to uh interject and approach me. >> The uh website TMZ is reporting today. that your family is getting inundated. with dozens of death threats and other.

hateful messages following the. conviction. Um, is that true? >> Yes, it is. Yeah, it's a daily it's a daily. occurrence. um that you know I've turned it over to. law enforcement. I really don't want to. comment too much on it. They're going to. handle it, but it's a daily occurren. occurrence of uh you know vile text, actual phone calls that actually, you. know, they want to talk to me. Um it. it's it at some point, you know, they're.

going to have to get tired of it and go. on. So, I mean, what's done is done. the. verdict is out. Yeah, you can file for. appeal. Really, everyone thinks there's. new evidence, new that. No, there's not. All the appeal court does is make sure. it was procedures were followed. correctly and there was no nothing that. was done to to uh interfere with due. process. >> TMZ is reporting that you've received. messages like they say that these are. screen grabs that from from messages.

sent to you. You're just mad because. Austin's no longer living. should have. stabbed Hunter, too. Um, didn't you beat. Megan? I blame you and he effed around. and found out about Austin. Is that Are. these some of the messages that you. >> That's just the tip of the That's just. the tip of the iceberg. Yeah, that's. that's it's unbelievable the amount I. get. And uh, you know, for. >> this is so crazy. >> Yes, it is. It doesn't it it doesn't. make.

it's not rational behavior from a normal. human being. >> Are you worried about Hunter's safety in. the wake of these death threats and so. on? He looks obviously just like his. brother there. The hate toward him has. been overwhelming. There's a petition. now with change.org to have him arrested. for assault. Are you concerned about. him? Well, every parent, if you're a. parent, are you concerned about your. children every day? Yes, of course.

>> Yeah. >> Uh I've been concerned since he was. born. Uh but now doubly so. Yes. Because. if something was to happen, oh man, that. picture, that's the greatest. Those. >> those m I mean these memories, you know, the people that say, "Oh, I was an. absentee father. Oh, I beat their. mother." I've never laid a hand on a. woman in my life. You can ask Megan. Uh, I may have I may have not have been the. best person in the world, but I. guarantee you one thing. I never once. laid a hand on her. I don't believe in.

that. I taught my boys that. You do not. ever touch women. I don't care if they. hit you first. You do not strike a. woman. That's just something I was. taught from when I was raised. And uh, I. passed it on to my boys. >> These are some of the pictures of your. twins growing up together. and this. video played, I understand, as you gave. your victim impact statement in court. Um, how is how how is Hunter doing? This. must have been incredibly hard for him.

in particular. >> Um, to be honest, Hunter is amazing. I. uh I spoke to him a couple of nights ago. when he came over and we stepped out. front by ourselves and I and I wanted to. tell him something. And I said, "Son, um, when you when you walked up on that. witness stand, you were a boy. When you stepped down from that witness. stand, you were a man." I said, "I have. been hard on you and I have drilled so. much into you. I know you're sick of me.

telling you, but I always told them. about communication is the key. If you. can't communicate, you're you're gonna. have problems with every part of your. life, with your job, with your family, with your relationships. If you cannot. effectively articulate your words and. string them together in a sentence to. convey your emotions or your thoughts in. an effective manner so other people can. understand you, you're going to be. limited. And when he got up on that. stand, because I was more emotional when.

I did my impact statement than him, he. was calm, under control, held his emotions in. check, was respectful, was direct, communicated in a very. soft but firm and strong way to get his. point across. and to ask that man, young man, with. respect, he said, "Please look me in the.

eye.". At least Carmelo gave him at least 5 10. seconds of looked him in the eye and. then straight back down. He wouldn't do. that for me, but Hunter. walked down off that. witness stand as a man. And I told him. last night or night before that, I. hugged him. said, "From now on, son, uh, I I don't look at you as a boy. I look. at you as a man. I'm going to treat you. as such.".

>> Wow. Were they identical, Jeff? Were they. identical twins? >> Yes, they were. Austin was born a couple. of minutes before. And so, but yes, they. were very identical. I actually used to. have to take a black Sharpie and color. in Hunter's toenail black uh so we could. tell them apart when they were on the. floor or we wouldn't get confused. And. the joke was uh [laughter] you know. you're you you're from the black toe. tribe. U because we do we we [laughter].

do have Native American heritage in us. We do have our Indian cards. So we kind. of joke about that. And uh he asked me, "What tribe are we?" And I was like, "Well, you're from the Black Toad. tribe." And so that was a running joke. for years. [laughter]. You're you're from the clear toe. You. over there. Clear toe. The um I asked. you if you'd learned anything about. Carmelo Anthony in the past year. We. know precious little about Austin. I'd. love to hear about what kind of kid. Austin was.

The day he was killed, at 10:00 in the morning, our church held a vigil, impromptu. vigil, at 7:00 p.m. that night. Our. church holds 1500 people. It was completely full and overflowed of. two or 300 people more in the lobby. We had me, family, friends who spoke. about Austin and how he touched.

everyone. Uh when I spoke about Austin, uh I told a story that I've told many. times I've told when I had cancer is. people don't remember how much money you. had. People don't remember what kind of. car you drove or how big your bank. account was, but people always remember. how you made them feel. and they put their footprints on your. heart. They leave a lasting impression.

in some positive way. And that's what's. called a legacy. That's what you leave. behind. Because when you live, when. you're born, you're you have nothing. When you die, you go out with nothing. There's no U-Haul behind a hir. But what. you leave behind is the people that you. impacted in their life. And Austin was. special. He had the ability to be a. leader, to show compassion, to to to. encourage his teammates, to to lift up.

and and and discover. I mean, I tried to. make them go to church so many times. before, but um they found it through. God, through their friends, and God. works through them. So I was fortunate. that he found God. Uh I was very very. lucky to have him as a son and uh there. I could go on for days to and tell you. stories about Austin and Hunter and me. >> Jeff, I hope we can consider continue the.

discussion sometime. I I'm wishing you. and your family nothing but [music]. wellness and healing. God bless you. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. Thank you again. Hey, thanks for watching today's full. episode. If you're new here, throw us a. subscribe. See what you think. Stay in. touch. There's plenty more goodness. where this one came from. As always, we. really do value your feedback, so email. me, too. Megan megnancell.com. or just leave a comment down below. I do. read them. I meander over and I scroll. through and I find them very.

entertaining and really appreciate the. feedback. But in any event, join the. community by becoming a subscriber so. you miss nothing. We value your support. We may not always agree on positions, but as you know, I'm very open-minded to. people who disagree with me. That's how. I learn. So, thanks. And thanks for. trusting us to always talk about it. openly, honestly, and with provocative. conversations. For 250 years, Americans. have believed in a powerful idea that we. were meant to live free. Free to work. hard, free to move, free to enjoy life.

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The 3-week quick start is ready for you. Visit reliefactor.com or call 8004. relief. We are turning now to Kelly's. Court. Joining me now, Mark Geros. He's. the co-host [music] of In the Well on. our MK True Crime channel, which is a. podcast uh called MK True Crime. And we. have different shows on that podcast. So, go ahead and subscribe now to the. podcast wherever you get your podcasts. for free. Um, and you can just go to. mktrimerime.com as well, which will.

direct you to all the right places. Arthur Idala is also here. He's our pal, longtime pal, and he's the host of the. Arthur Idala Power Hour. Former. prosecutor, former, well, now current. defense attorney, civil lawyer, does it. all. Does it all. Guys, thank you for. being here. Great to see you both. Oh my. god. Poor Jeff Metaf. That was tough. This poor guy, in addition to losing his. son, has had to deal with non-stop. harassment. They're they're treating him. like his boy is the one who committed.

the murder of of a black boy. That's how. this is being treated. Like like he's. some racist kid who committed a murder. for no re. It's exactly the opposite. He. did nothing wrong. He was trying to ask. this kid to leave and he paid for that. with his life. Arthur, what do you make. of what's happening to this poor family? >> Well, yeah, you know, I listened to the. um the interview and I don't know what. who the rebel rouser is that you were. referring to, their their spokesperson.

down there in in Texas who. >> Dominique Alexander is his name. >> So, Megan, it is literally become people. should know this, it's become an. industry. It's become like the way to. make a living is to be spokesperson for. these cases. You can imagine how many. there are in New York. Um I'm I'm. representing a police officer who's. Hispanic who killed someone who's. Hispanic. All the witnesses and all the. cops are Hispanic and they're making.

this a racial thing where there's. everyone is the same exact race and I. mean they're screaming and they're. yelling and they're I mean they ripped. me apart for defending the the sergeant. and it's what they do. They just create. problems. They're unethical. They are. absolutely now there are there are no. ethics, right? They're not lawyers. They're not judges. So they play by the. and and they're they're taking money. They're in my opinion stealing people's. money. I don't think they are providing. any service any benefit. I think it.

typically they wind up making things. much worse. And but it's but because of. all the social media and the clicks and. all. I mean you you just rattled off. like eight podcasts that I never heard. of where all these different interviews. are taking place. So, hey, why not? Let. me and I love the question you asked. rhetorically. Where is all that GoFundMe. money and you know, and I did see he. filed a indigent client, meaning he has. no money to do his appeal. $600,000 is a.

significant amount of money for anybody. Even though the Mark Geros. >> blow through in a year, >> I mean, that's, you know, that's a. that's a lot of money right there. Um, so, you know, I it's it's tragic. It's. tragic. Uh and and the the twin brother. and you highlighted that as well, Megan. You know, my best friend who I I lost on. on 911, as tragic as it said as his. parents were, his siblings were they. still haven't recovered 25 years later. And I'm not exaggerating. And I and to.

be a twin, I mean, that has to take. everything to a whole another level. So, you know, and talk about the legality of. it. I've never tried a self-defense case. where the defendant didn't testify and. talked about why he had to act the way. he did in self-defense. >> There's a reason they didn't put him on. the stand. I think we all know they must. have concluded he would have made a. terrible witness. I mean, in a. self-defense claim, Mark, to not put him. up there. And he's the only one. He's.

the only one who could say what was in. his heart when Austin Metaf came over to. him. Why he said to Austin Metaf, you. know, push try to touch me and you'll. find out. Touch me and you'll see. Why. did you say that? Wh why were you. inviting him to touch you? What was in. your head as the you'll see part of that. exchange? Why did you bring the knife? All those things, if he had good. explanations for them, I think we would. have heard them. >> Yeah. Except it's not the law. And it's.

an interesting one of the things that a. judge instructs the jury in every single. criminal case in America. >> Yeah. But isn't it different when it's. self-defense as the defense? I know he. has no obligation to testify and you. can't hold it against him that he. didn't, but he's raising his whole. defense is it was self-defense. I was. afraid. I was threatened. >> Right. And if you really believed as the. lawyer, still the one tactical decision. that you don't get to make as a lawyer.

is whether to call your client or not. I've actually gone into chambers in. murder cases and said it's over my dead. body that the client is taking, pun. intended, taking the stand. uh in a. self-defense case. I've had a more than. a a few cases where I have got I've uh. had a result that was a voluntary. manslaughter without the client taking. the stand. People I think in this case. didn't understand. I'm going to give the.

benefit of the doubt to the defense. lawyer. This did not strike me ever as a. self-defense case. Yes, you invoke. self-defense, but it was always going to. be based on what was reported. And. unfortunately, we didn't have cameras in. the courtroom, but based on what was. reported, this was always an excessive. force against whatever the push, the. shove, whatever the initiation was. If. it's excessive force, then you're you're. aiming for a reduction that you're.

negating malice. You're trying to get a. manslaughter. >> You could argue both. You could argue. both in your summation. You could say, you know, look, >> our position is that he acted in. self-defense. He had fear and these are. the reasons why. Now, you can't get into. the reasons why. If he doesn't testify, he if you don't know what's in his head, if he doesn't testify hypothetically, if. he says, "Well, yeah, I saw the deceased. beat up two other kids just a week ago. and he broke the guy's nose and he was. bleeding all over the place. That's why.

I acted the way he did. I did." Well, now you could have a really sound. argument, but you can tell the jury and. if you discount our theory of. self-defense, this is also a case where. the judge is giving you a lesser. included. So therefore, you could say. you could determine whether he just he. used excessive force under these. situations and try to get what's called. a compromise verd. >> And to Arthur's point, >> they they rejected all of it. They had. manslaughter offered up him, a silver. platter, and the jury said no. And then.

when offered the the sudden passion um. mitigating factor on the sentencing. phase, they reject it rejected it again. because that would have had a maximum of. 20 years and they gave him 35. The jury. didn't buy it. They didn't buy it. It's. like I I know like the maybe the family, the lawyer bargained that people would. hear that he was asked to leave the tent. and would infer that this was a racial. thing and get mad at Austin Metaf for. trying to kick the black kid out in the.

rain, then laying hands on the black kid. as this hulking white boy. They didn't. buy it. They knew it was They. knew you don't stab somebody in the. heart for telling you to leave a tent. and literally just placing a hand on. you. Megan, go ahead, Mark. >> The the problem was from their. standpoint, as all cases in my experience, it's over. in jury selection. When you don't have. in jury selection African-Americans on. that jury, it's pre-ordained what your.

verdict's going to be. I remember. >> Okay, tell me why. >> I'll tell you why. I remember during the. George Zimmerman trial, in fact, Marco. Omera still teases me. Mark Omera was. the lawyer for George Zimmerman. As soon. as they got that jury, and it was an. all-white jury, I I went public and. said, "The only way Zimmerman loses or. loses this case is if he falls and trips. and hits his head." Because you are. never as a defense lawyer going to.

change who the person is. Just take a. look at our political scene today. Take. a look at kind of the left versus right, Republican versus Democrat. You don't. change, you're not changing anybody's. hearts and minds as a lawyer. What. you're doing is you're picking a jury. that will look at what your defense is. and either buy it or not buy it. Either. the story resonates or the story doesn't. resonate. You can't change in a week, in.

a month, even in a one-year trial the. way somebody views life. And so once you. had that jury for whatever reasons and. that jury was selected, you have to. course correct to give them whatever. arguments. And hopefully the lawyer when. he was doing that understood. And by the. way, the judge did give him a. manslaughter. that wasn't necessarily. required when the client doesn't take. the stand. That was a victory for the.

defense. But at the same time, I. guarantee you if he still had any. neurons firing, the lawyer had tried to. question his client. And I can tell you, having raised a a teenage boy, having. represented countless teenage boys, they. there's rarely the teenage boy that. you're going to want to to put on the. stand who's going to withstand a. cross-examination. It just is it's virtually impossible.

But that I mean you can find let let me. just say this though. You can absolutely. find black jurors who would have. convicted Carmelo Anthony in a heartbeat. and white jurors who would have. acquitted him had the evidence been. there. And I've been wanting to play. this. I saw this on X last night and I. was like, you know, because I feel like. so many people are generalizing about. black people because we're seeing a lot. of black people outside of this. courthouse saying vile things to the. Metaf family and making this a race. thing and and saying we got to protect.

ours. They don't speak for all black. people. That's this is Most. black people are normal just like white. people, you know, they're good, they're. bad, they're in between, they're all the. things. they don't have like saddled. with racial grievance all the time and. they can't be fair jurors and they can't. see justice when it's administered or. it's not. And that brings me to this. father whose name I don't know. I just. it's a viral uh video on X. He's sitting. there with his I think they're all boys. He says they're boys, but it's five. black children on his lap behind him.

Couple of babies, so you can never tell. gender so much with the babies. I accept. him that these are the five black. children. And listen to this guy, Sat. 19. WHAT DO YOU WANT US TO DO? THAT'S. RIGHT. >> WHAT WHAT DO YOU WANT US TO DO AT THIS. POINT? WHAT? I I'M LOST FOR WORDS. I. DON'T KNOW WHAT to do. I got five boys. I don't know WHAT I AIN'T GOT NOTHING TO. TELL THEM NO MORE. YOU CAN'T WALK AWAY. NO MORE. >> What do you want us to do? >> I I also had five boys. Um she doesn't.

know what to do after the Carmelo. incident. Like what to tell her sons, guys. >> Um. I'm going to go ahead and try something. >> today. Boys, when you go out into. school, don't stab any other kids. >> You think you think you think you guys. can do that? >> You feel good about that, Lee? >> You feel good about that, Ace? >> Yeah. >> Oh, you're a trail. This is Ace. So, is. that a good commitment from everybody?

We're not going to stab any kids today. >> Probably not. >> Hey, try that, lady. That might work. [crying]. >> I love that. It's basic personal. accountability. >> I didn't see that coming. I did not. think I did not think that was the type. of clip you were going to play. Can I. just address. >> Neither did I I was I I did not. >> Can I just address what Mark was talking. about, Jury? >> It's amazing. Like, think of the black. people, you know. That's what they're. like. The black people I know are like.

he stabbed him in the heart. They're. they're not saying like he deserved it. because he placed hands on him and said. leave our tent at a sporting event in. which they were rivals like that. The. people outside of that courthouse are. nutcases. The people in the media. backing up like Jasmine Crockett are. nutcase activist types. Regular black. people are not having this reaction. Maybe I'm wrong, some are. But I don't I. just think the average person, black, white, Hispanic, what have you,

understands perfectly well what happened. down there. That kid snapped. I don't. know why. I don't know what was in the. background. He snapped. And it was. murder. Like he obviously understood. plunging a knife into another man's. heart so deep and so hard that the the. heart had a two and a half inch wound. and it that he he nicked the bone behind. it. that that kid was there to kill. Austin Metaf in that moment. Go ahead, Arthur. >> A couple things. I just want to address.

what what Mark said about a jury and. jury selection. Um, it's it's that but I. agree with what you also said, Megan, is. that there are plenty of black jurors. who convict black people and white. jurors who convict white people. But but. Mark is correct. I mean, what I say when. I lecture at law schools, Megan, you're gonna get a kick out of. this, is you know, a trial, it's like. making gravy. It's like making Sunday. sauce, right? Mana's Sunday sauce. But. if you start with bad tomatoes, it.

doesn't matter how much meatballs and. sausage and everything. >> So, you you're never going to you're you. know, you're never going to have a good. sauce. So, if you start with a bad jury, it doesn't matter how talented you think. you are. if they're just so. predetermined to be against you. Now, my. limited understanding is that's one of. the big issues that is going to be. raised at the trial here. >> Well, there there were minorities on. this jury that just weren't black. people. There were minorities. There. were Hispanics and there were Asians. >> There were three apparently there were. three African-American women who were.

struck from the jury by the prosecution. and one after the other after the other. And um you the argument at the appeal is. going to be um that you you know that. they they were struck by the prosecutor. because they were black. Now the law is. >> which is illegal. You can you can strike. jurors for any reason. You can strike. them because you don't like their hair. color. You cannot strike them because. you don't like their skin color. There. are like the the things there are a few. things that you cannot strike a juror a.

juror perspective juror based on. Race. is one of them. But they have a defense. to that. They said they were all. teachers and that's why they. >> you have to give a raceneutral reason as. to why you dismissed those two or. >> three Arthur a question. >> and the judge believed. >> Yeah. Well, I was going to say Arthur, have you ever met a prosecutor who. couldn't give you a pretext as to why. they excuse somebody? What kind of. nonsense is? And why does a prosecutor. who's got the burden of proof, why do. they need a perempter challenge, I. thought, you know, they have the burden.

of proof. Why should they be able to. exercise perempter? At least in federal. court, somebody understands that it's an. uneven playing field and the defense. gets more peremparies than the. prosecution. I' I've always thought I. the prosecutor shouldn't even have a. perempter. They ought to they're so. confident. Um so, but Megan, what what people. >> bleeding heart criminal defense. >> bleeding heart. You're going to take. away somebody's liberty. Why not prove. your case if you think the case is so. great? both sides have a few in their.

back pocket who they they get to bounce. for no cause whatsoever. teacher it just happens to be a black. teacher I I don't like. >> the case happened on a school ground. what you know exactly what the. prosecution was thinking three are going. to get on there and they're going to be. like I'm the authority because I'm the. teacher let me tell you how these things. work a lot of lawyers criminal defense. and prosecution say I don't want some. expert going on there I'm the expert. I'll tell them Let me guess. Let me.

guess. If they had a cop on that jury, the prosecutor would have bounced the. cop cuz he didn't want the authority. Come on, Megan. Let's not be Let's not. be naive. They were bouncing the people. for a specific reason. We can make the. argument any other way you want. >> You You're alleging racism and a. violation of the law with zero. foundation. >> Alleging. See, this is where I think. people get mistaken. They say it's. racism. No, it is bouncing. And when I. say bouncing, I mean using a permpter on.

somebody because you think as the. prosecutor that person is going to have. an affinity for the the defendant that. does not necessarily I when people say, "Well, that's. >> but it's illegal if they do it for rape. You're accusing them of violating their. ethics.". >> It's illegal. But how do you prove it's. illegal as long as the prosecutor is. clever enough to give you a pretextual. reason? >> But he's got a whole Arthur, you tell.

me. Because they the defense tried this. Even that loser defense lawyer who was. terrible did try this. He stood up and. he was like, she he they just struck the. three black jurors and the prosecutor. said, "That's because they're educators. and I don't want three teachers on the. jury." And he said, "You you let a white. woman go on the jury, but it sounds like. she wasn't a teacher." I don't like that. if if the white woman who he who he let. go on the jury is a teacher and has the. same resume as the three black people,

now we're talking, but the judge wasn't. persuaded by the facts as they stood. >> You you are correct, Megan. and and you. know you you I don't know the reason why. they didn't want them on the jury the. the teachers was for the authority part. as much as the sympathy part. They're. going to be teachers. They're they're. with young people all the time. They're. going to know the consequences of their. verdict. If he gets found guilty, he's. going to spend majority of his life in. prison. So that's why um as a. prosecutor, I would not want a teacher. who are with children. I mean, their. life is children and it's protecting.

children and enriching children and and. so their DNA is to help children and. this kid is basically a child. So that's. why I would say judge, you know, and I. would make that exact argument I just. made on the record to the judge. Here's. why. They're going to be overly. sympathetic to the jury. They're going. to have to the to the defendant. they're. going to have a prejudice against the. prosecution and for the defendant. because they're going to look at the. prosecution not as someone who's trying. to do justice but is trying to say,

"Hey, one kid is dead and now we're. going to kill another kid." So that's. the but the more you give the judge to. say this is a race this is a very. raceneutral reason, the the stronger it. is. That's why I don't think this is a. strong appellet issue um for the. defense. >> Okay, but here's here's what's crazy. now. Now you've got there was at least. one juror who was bounced because he. said during voadier quote I don't know. if I feel right putting a brother in.

jail by I mean I appreciate the guy's. honesty but here's what's happening now. Here's here's now what we're getting uh. in reaction to this verdict by the. activist class class. This is from the. Jin and Juice podcast. Uh take a listen. to SAT 17. If they say, "Can you be fair?" Don't. say, "No, [laughter]. I'm not. I'm not gonna put a black man. in jail." Don't say that. You have to go. and be like, "No, I will hear the. evidence. I can be fair." When damn near.

half of the black people who could have. been on the jury. >> canceled themselves out. You know, don't. do that. When you go up there, >> say, "No, I have never heard about this. case. I can be fair." Say that. Okay? And then mean it. Believe it a little. bit. Don't tell them you can't be impartial. >> I believe [clears throat] in the rule of. law. [laughter]. >> So don't go in there and act like all of. a sudden you have to be the most honest. person you've ever been.

>> Yeah, that's interesting. >> Don't. By the way, if you don't think that. applies for prosecution jurors, I can. give you I have caught so many stealth. jurors who lied to get onto a jury to. fry the client. It applies to both. sides. >> Absolutely, Megan. You know how Let me. just tell you, you know where it. happened really extensively? The first. Harvey Weinstein trial I did, they would. come in, we interviewed them one-on-one,

and they, "Oh, I could be so fair. I. could do whatever, swearing on their. children that they would give him a fair. trial. And then with they were struck. for whatever reason, we followed up on. their Facebook and their Instagram and. they were like, "I was almost on the. jury to convict that burnt ball. I. couldn't wait to send the lying to us so. blatantly.". >> Arthur, during Scott Peterson's trial, we did what's called in California back. in the day Hovie Border. You bring. people in individually.

>> That's what I did. Weinstein. That's. what we did. >> Yeah. And I actually had a woman who I. liked. She said, "Oh, I changed my mind. when I when I first heard I was coming. in this case, but my dad told me, "What. if it was your brother?" And I thought, "Wow, this is great." I get back to the. hotel where I'm staying. Somebody sent. me a chat room. It's 20 years ago. And. she says, "I really I really hoodwink. that defense lawyer. I'm gonna lie get. on the jury and I'm gonna fry his. client." So. >> who did it was Megan? You know the the.

[laughter] the supermodel I guess Gigi. dad know who that is cuz I didn't. >> Yeah, >> she did it. So when when she walks in my. coach like GG I don't know who I that. isn't that a Broadway show GG. I don't. know who it is. So she comes in. oneonone. >> She must have caught your eye a little. >> Absolutely not. She was like neither. >> She she looks like a 12year-old boy. It's it's not my thing. But she she. swore to us absolutely I could be fair. And we're like well you're in that. industry. Isn't it? Aren't you going to. be B? No. No. No. He deserves a fair.

trial. B. I forget which side struck. her. And oh, you should have seen what. she wrote on Facebook. I was so close to. sending that fat so to jail for life. I. mean, they just blatantly on their. children on a stack of Bibles. Lie to. your face. >> She she she's a 5'11 supermodel, but. okay. I accept the she didn't catch your. eye at all. 12-year-old boy. I. [laughter] was going to say I don't know. what junior I don't know what junior. high argument jeez. >> know is my wife [laughter].

>> all right well let let me keep going. because there's a lot more to get to. So. so does anyone think this appeal has any. sort of a chance they are they may raise. the juror uh challenge you know that. that that they're going to argue that. these jurors were clearly stricken. because they were black and that was. illegal. I mean, that that is the kind. of thing if if an appellet court decided. to revisit it, that could get you a new. trial, but there's no evidence of it. I. mean, like, they'd have to have. something very strong, would they not? Have you guys ever seen a new trial. granted on those grounds? And was it. stronger grounds than this?

>> I have, but you would have to have some. I to your point, you're absolutely. correct. It's a heavy lift. You would. need some kind of a declaration. you. would need some kind of really. compelling evidence that somebody was. either uh you know one of the things. that I found Arthur may have seen this. you have a jury strike list by the. prosecution if there was an initial a B. or something for black or some type.

I've seen that I've I've actually seen. that happen where that was discovered. years later and it ended up being the. basis for a habius to get somebody free. >> Oh my lord. >> Y'all be that lucky. That would be an. amazing. >> You seem to have talked about the. appellet issue. You seemed I I did not. pay enough attention to have an opinion. on the defense attorney's um. performance, but you I don't. >> He was dreadful. >> Okay. So then one of the issues, one of. the things you could bring up is.

ineffective assistance of counsel. Now, it's a very high bar. >> Okay. Can we talk about what the. dreadfulness was? And let me run it by. you guys as the seasoned experts who who. do this for a living. Now, still um this. guy, for example, um he got up there and. he said to the one witness, "Uh you you. and I have barely talked, right? Like I. talked to you for two minutes or. something." And the guy was like, "Yeah, you know what? Say again, Steve.". Yeah, it was his own witness. It was his. witness. And he's like, "We don't know. each other. We basically haven't spoken.

at all." And the guy was like, "Right.". And then that guy gave his testimony. that was supposed to be helpful to. Carmelo Anthony. It wasn't. It wound up. not being that helpful. On. cross-examination, he was exposed as. having completely collapsed. And then he. adopted the prosecution's theory of the. case. And the prosecutor got up there. and he's like, "You and I have talked. many times, right? Like, we know each. other. I I have talked to you." And he's. like, "Yeah, yeah, I know. I know who. you are. I know what. So, like on the. one side, you have a diligent prosecutor. who's been, you know, all along speaking. to witnesses, figuring out what they're. going to say, figuring out out his.

cross-examination, and you have a. defense lawyer who called the witness, who doesn't know anything about what. he's going to say, and the thing. implodes. Now, I feel like that's just. one example. I thought he was. ineffective from start to finish. I just. thought it was he should have done what. you said, Arthur. He should have said, "Here's our our her main defense, but. here's our alternative argument. uh if. you ex if you don't accept that and. here's all the proof that you know heat. of passion or whatever. He didn't he. wasn't effective on any of this. But. you ha you have to prove not not only.

was it ineffective assistance, you have. to prove that if you had a Gyaragos or. idala in there, the result would have. been different, right? That it was it. actually did affect the outcome that you. would have had a serious likelihood of. an acquitt if you had effective. assistance. And this case was open and. shut. The facts really weren't even in. dispute. So, doesn't that kill that. appeal? >> If the kid if the kid signed a. declaration like uh like Mark was saying.

that he says, "I really wanted to. testify and my def my lawyer stopped me. from testifying. I wanted to tell my. side of the story, but my lawyer who's. twice my age and when my family paid him. and he spoke to his thing, he told me, "No, no, no, you can't testify." And I. needed to tell my story and judges. really believe that. And it is a. self-defense case. So it is a you know. it is it is very relevant. It's not like. a pie in the sky but it's look I can. just tell you in New York Megan to get. an ineffective assistance of council is.

very difficult. The the key uh case has. to do with a lawyer literally sleeping. at the table where the it's on the. record. The judge is like Mr. Jo Mr. Jones are you sleeping right now? >> Mark was tired. >> He was tired. Stop it. >> That Arthur that was a Texas case. The. sleeping lawyer was out of Texas. >> I did not know that. >> Yeah. >> Oh, and that's where this case is. Well, do you think do do you disagree, Mark, that it's next to impossible on. ineffective assistance?

>> Ineffective assistance is a very high. bar because it isn't whether or not if. you had Johnny Cochran or you had the. second coming of Clarence Darrow, it's. basically are you, you know, I always. joke about probable cause has been. reduced to are you breathing the um is. my client breathing? But for ineffective. assistance, it's not a high bar to be. thought of as competent. And and. basically judges will say, could this. have been a tactical decision? Could.

this lawyer is there a way to spin. whatever decision the client is. complaining about that the lawyer had a. reason to do it tactically? If they did, the judges are dismissive of it. The. reason why I brought up him testifying, Mark Little said it earlier, when it. comes to a trial, that the main. decisions that only the defendant can. make is to take a plea or not to take a. plea and to testify or not to testify. >> And so that the testify or not.

testifying, that's that's a that's a a. third rail. If the judges believed that. this kid really wanted to testify and. the judge and that his lawyer prevented. him from testifying, that's something. that I'm gonna all say is they're going. to take it into consideration. >> Well, Arthur's point, I I make a habit. of having the judge do an inquiry just. so that you don't go down this road when. the prosecution arrests and have the. judge do it on the record. And in the. instance, as I mentioned before, to.

Arthur's point, I actually will take the. client into chambers, have it have it. transcribed if they're taking the stand. over my objection. I've only done it a. couple of times, but I think of the one. where a a client did it after I thought. I had tried the best defense case within. the prosecutions you could ever do, and. he did it over my uh over my vehement. objection. And you know, day one he did. well, day two he disintegrated. So.

>> that's that's how it goes. That's why. you don't want that. All right, stand by. because there is breaking news right now. in the Blake Lively. Justin Baldoni. case, we have a ruling from the judge on. her demand that he pay her legal fees. plus punitive damages times three. She. wants them trebled or tripled. Um, we've. got a ruling that's next. Let me tell. you something. When you sign your. insurance policy, for some brokers, that's the finish line. Handshake, commission, done. See you. Then you may.

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Justin Baldoni must pay Blake Lively's. attorney's fees expended in defending. his defamation claim against her. Um, he. had rejected her request for additional. punitive or triple damages, which is a. very good thing for Justin. The. attorney's fees less good. Um, this is. her submission under a policy under. California law referred to as section.

47.1, which was enacted to protect. me too victims, sexual harassment or. sexual abuse victims who file claims and. then get counters sued for defamation by. defendants who wish to harass them, who. wish to silence them. It was a way of. empowering them against more empowered, more more, you know, richer, more. famous, more connected defendants that. they may be suing for sexual harassment. who try to bully them into silence with.

a counter claim for defamation. I know. that because we interviewed the woman. behind the law, the woman whose idea it. was, and the woman who was the architect. of the law, her name is Victoria Burke, and she was very against this law being. used by Blake Lively. uh she was she. came on and said this is the last thing. I had in mind. She's more powerful than. he is. She's better connected. She's. richer. And she admitted she revealed to. us exclusively that Blake Lively's.

lawyers had come to Victoria Burke to. say we really want Blake to be the face. of this law and to take it national. So. it's not just California and three other. states which it is now but it's 50. states and that Blake Lively will be the. champion for this law who brings it. everywhere. And this woman Victoria who. unlike Blake Lively is an actual. survivor of sexual assault. said no I don't want your help you weird.

lady. I'm doing a good job on my own and. I have a strategy and I'd much rather. stay under the radar than have you go. out there in your stupid MetGala dress. and try to make yourself the face of my. law. So, this judge has kind of split the baby. from the look of it, saying, "All right, I under the the term the explicit terms. of 47.1, I guess I have to give her her. attorney's fees, but I'm not doing any.

of that other nonsense." And it is a. loss for team Baldon, which made the. argument that this law couldn't even be. enforced and that it's probably. unconstitutional. They wanted him to. like not give her anything, but they. didn't quite get that. But it's much. better to just get her fees awarded to. her, Mark, than to get her fees and. punies and times three. >> I look, if I was prognosticating, and I. did prognosticate, and truth be told, talk to Brian about it. I didn't ever.

think they were going to get trouble or. punitive damages. I expected only. because there is part of what was uh. built into the settlement agreement was. a no appeal. So the judge basically. could act with impunity and he didn't. have to worry about the circuit. reversing him. The strict language of. the statute would seem to suggest that. you have to award fees, but there's. still yet another battle. Even though.

the order says case closed, they're. going to submit their fees request. there's and cost and then the judge is. going to whittle it down and Brian's. team is going to uh file something that. says no, this was not what was intended. and they're going to go back and forth. and the judge is going to make the call, but it's not going to come out of Justin. Baldon's pocket. This is all going to. it's going to be a fight between the. insurance companies over who's going to. pay this. So, it's really much a do. about nothing and confirms what you.

said, Megan, that that settlement was a. massive loss for Blake Lively because. she paid out of pocket to her attorneys. for the entire case. She's not going to. get all of her attorneys fees back. She's only going to get a siloed. specific. discrete amount that are cabined to and. tethered to the defense of that counter.

suit, not the entire case. So, it's not. like she's getting some windfall. She's. getting a percentage, some small. percentage of what she spent on this. case. She got no damages. And as you. said, the woman who actually authored. the law is running as fast away from her. as she possibly can. >> My question for you, Arthur, she she. hired like 25 lawyers or something. You. know, like she ridiculously overspent. because she and her husband Ryan are. swimming in money unlike Justin Baldoni.

So when the judge gets a submission of. what fees were expended only in. defending the defamation claim, she. doesn't get to reim get reimbured. She's. the one who filed this case. She filed. sexual harassment. He counters sued for. defamation. So, she's not going to get. everything. She's not going to get how. much it took her lawyers to draft her. complaint or to serve process on Justin. It's from the time he filed that counter. claim, that's when it would stop start. ticking. And they're going to have to. give an itemized. This is how much was. spent in defending that claim. But even. so, if they look at that and it's.

totally excessive because she hired all. these, she went balls to the wall. She. used Ryan Reynolds money to do it. Is. she entitled to all of that or does it. have to be reasonable? >> No, the judge and what Mark said is. true. Um the judge will um and and also. what Mark said, it probably will be a. lawyer from the insurance company that's. going to have to lay this money out. saying, "Hold on a second. First of all, and I'll be give some hypotheticals. They're billing out at $3,000 an hour.".

And we can tell you that the average. lawyer in this California is bills out. at $1,200 an hour. So whatever that is, let's take let's lop that off. Now they. have five lawyers working on one motion. and let's lop that off. So they may put. in a bill for $2 million and they might. wind up with getting $600,000. uh in the long run. And don't forget, you know, we talked about earlier jury. selection and people's prejudices. It's. a federal judge who who makes, I don't. know, $350,000 a year looking at these.

bills. To see that like some lawyer is. gonna make $3 million on this is a. little bit like, "Oh, slow down, cowboy. I'm not giving you all of this money.". Okay. I got a job. Yeah, exactly. Do you. know Do you know him? I don't know him. I knew his father. Um, Arthur Lyman, who. was. >> Judge Lman. >> Yeah. Judge Lyman. His father was a was. a. >> storied guy. >> Yeah. I mean, a storied legend and kind. of of an Edward Bennett Williams level.

of uh of expertise. I don't get the. impression just based on what I've. either seen or read about his uh uh. temperament and his uh kind of uh. rulings in this case that he's going to. write anybody a large check or allow. anybody to have a large check written in. this. And the truth is though, Megan, it's not probably going to hurt these. lawyers because as you accurately. stated, they've already got paid a ton. of money on the initial suit. So this is.

just the the other piece of it. But you. know, Meg, in general, not ne necessarily this law. I have no. objection to these kinds of cases where. attorneys fees can be awarded. I think. it should be done more often because it. would prevent frivolous lawsuits. who. would prevent people saying, "I just. want to break their chops. Let I'll give. you $100,000. Let me just break your. chops and see what happens." And if they. spent, you spent a hundred on your.

lawyer, but they spent 300 on their. lawyer. Well, now you're you're on the. hook. So, your lawyer says, "Look, you're going to give me 100, but I got. to tell you, things don't go our way. You could lose money you gave me and the. money you gave." Then he's given his. lawyers and the judge can give you. treble damagements. So there should be a. little bit more of accountability or. potential punishment if you come at them. with something that is that really is. frivolous and you know you're not going. to win, but it's not to the level where. you can't file it. So I I'm not.

necessarily against laws. >> I I believe it is busting the chop, not. breaking the chop. If we if we drill. down, isn't it? You're busting my chops. >> Okay. All right. That's what they say in. Albany. In Brooklyn, I think we say. don't stop breaking my ch and my. father's inside. He's from the Bronx. I'll ask. >> in Brooklyn, they say bust. You're wrong. there, too. >> Listen, when it comes to cursing Megan. Kelly, I'm not in your league, so I will. defer. >> And you bust chops. I submit my case to.

the jury of the MK show. Please email in. as our verdict. Uh, who is right on. this? It's Megan. >> All the responses. >> You can say stop busting my who owns. >> my balls to Oh, look how sweet you are. You won't say anything. >> My mother watches this. Megan, my mother. watches this. Okay. So, I have to be. [laughter]. >> I know. She knows about me. She's She. already forgives me. >> Okay. >> Okay. Here's my real question, though. Um. worth it, Mark? You know, like that's my.

my number one takeaway is so worth it. Like the defamation case was Justin. Baldoni saying. these are lies. This woman is a. psychopath. She's claiming I busted in. on her when she was breastfeeding and I. have evidence to show you she invited me. in there saying don't worry, I don't. mind if you come in while I'm. breastfeeding. You know, like she time. and time again she made these.

allegations against me which were so. false. They were false to the point. where I felt I had no choice but to say. to the world, she is falsely accusing me. to the point of defamation. And now let. me tell you everything about the. defamation I'm suffering. This whole. thing turned the narrative on its head. You had him like labeled as a meto. disgusting foul pervert by Blake Lively. and her rich husband. And when Brian. filed that counter claim, everything.

changed. So, I don't really care what. modicum of attorneys fees his attorneys. or his insurance has to pay. Worth it. >> Well, you're not kidding. And you, we're. old enough, some of us, to remember the. Stryand effect that's been supplanted. now. You can call it the lively effect. Never has somebody so lit themselves on. fire and for absolutely no reason. I it. was stunning to me that they did it in. the first place and they doubled down.

and they missed the perfect opportunity. when Judge Lyman gutted Baldon's case as. counter claim at that point declare. victory and get out and and make some. kind of a statement. But the idea of. continuing and continuing and just. continuing to just drive into the center. median just made absolutely no sense to. me. >> Yes. Yes, she made herself into another. Amber Herd and she will not recover from.

that. >> Got a nice dress. You got a nice dress, Meg. >> Got that nice dress. You should borrow. it. >> The sherbet. >> You and you and Doug would look great. from the town with that. You go for it. >> She's so disingenuous. By the way, speaking of disingenuous, did you guys. watch uh the miracle at MSG the other. night when the Knicks turned it around. after being down 30 points? >> Oh, yeah. We I had like guys at the. office have a video of us exploding when. it happened. >> It was un sports person. It was unlike.

anything we've ever seen. I was sitting. there with my daughter and my husband. It was like no what? They were down 30. then they were down 15. It was like. what? What? Okay. But the reason I'm. bringing this up is Taylor Swift was. there in the front row pretending to be. a Knicks fan and like oh yeah, here I. am. I'm so excited. Oh, the Knicks. By. the way, she was just at a Knicks. Cleveland game. Cavaliers rooting for. Cleveland. >> Well, that was her husband, right? Isn't. that her husband? You. >> think she's kidding? >> Isn't that her husband's team?

Cleveland. I mean, we we do have. marriages, right? >> She was there rooting for them for the. other team. >> I didn't know. I didn't realize she was. rooting for. >> Yes. >> Okay. Well, >> she was there with him. They were. rooting for the Cavs. She's a fake New. York Knicks fan and she's a fake. person. You know, [laughter] I Arthur, were you even born the last time the. Knicks. >> Yeah, I was six. I I don't remember, but. I was six. But I was there in 99 when. they were in the finals. I was I was. right there and that was a fantastic.

situation. But this really. >> The other night was just sick. >> The other night was a miracle. the games. one and two which were in Texas, but I. was in the city walking in the area of. MSG and walking down the street as. baskets are being made and the cheers. from the city and the energy in the. city. It was just a wonderful thing. You. couldn't you couldn't imag. right right now as I'm sitting here, Megan, I'm looking at the M NBA store,

their big flagship stores diagonally. across the street. >> [clears throat]. >> Not only has it been packed for two. weeks, they're staying open like till. 10, 11:00 at night. What it has done, this for the New York economy, this mix. run has been fantastic. U the bars, the. restaurants, >> we needed this. We was saddled with. Mayor Mom Donnie. For the love of God, we needed a W. All right, last but not. least, Nick Reiner. This is in your. backyard, Mark. Nick Reiner, the son of.

Rob Reiner and Michelle Reiner, who is. accused of killing his parents, is. working to get his trust fund, um, which is got a lot of money in it, $1.5 million to pay for his criminal. defense. >> He's he's going to get it. >> It's a very interesting defense because. or question because normally like in New. York, we have the son of Sam law and out. there in California have something. similar. doesn't allow you to profit off. of your crime. But his argument is that.

this was a trust he was entitled to long. ago, like when he turned 30 and for some. reason just didn't get access to it. So, it's not like a will like a like an. insurance policy, right, Mark? So, what. do you make of it? Is he going to get. it? >> For a lot of the chatter online has been. how do you kill your parents or be. accused of killing your parents and then. profit from it and that's a separate. issue. This is a trust if you believe. what is being uh actually filed that was. formed when he was a youngster and a.

child and it was one of these trusts. that was set up when parents are worried. that it's going to screw up their kids. and make them trust fund babies. So it. was not supposed to kick in until he. turned 30. It was not distributed when. he was 30 and they're going to litigate. that. My guess is as a practical matter. when a judge sees this application and. understands look right now um the the uh.

taxpayers are paying for his defense. through the office of public defender. If I free up money here from the trust. to pay Allen Jackson, that's going to be. a zero sum game of money that we don't. have to pay as taxpayers. So I I expect. that that money will get freed up. >> and the the the financial aspect to the. taxpayers is right on. I mean Megan. should a guy who's got $1.5 million in.

the bank um get you know in this case. they'll give him three lawyers, two. parallegals as secretary you know it. it'll be a whole law firm literally. working on this case and the people in. California [clears throat] are paying. for it. You know, if it was in federal. court, maybe the federal judge would. say, because they're much more strict in. federal court about getting a free. lawyer, he would say, "No, no, no. Let. me see all of your finances, all of your. ass." No, no, you're not getting a free. lawyer. You go out, you got, you know, you even 75,000 bucks there. Go find a.

lawyer. There's some guy out there for. 75 grand who's going to take your case. So, you know, it it it does have. something to do with why should the. taxpayers be paying for his defense when. there's all this money there sitting and. he's never going to use it anyway cuz. he's except for his commissary behind. bars. >> I know, but like the the siblings I'm. sure are angry at the thought of their. parent. It's really the parents money, you know, that they gifted to him. He's. I guess 32. So he was he was supposed to.

receive a dispersement at age 30 which. didn't happen while Michelle and Rob. were still alive and then another one at. 35. Um I don't know. I can see I can see. the argument against doing it, but I. take your point of they'd rather saddle. the trust with the burden and not the. California taxpayer. Guys, a great. discussion all around. Have a great. weekend. Go Knicks. >> Thank you. It was great seeing both of. you. >> Bye you guys. Ah, likewise. All right, have a great. week weekend to all of you as well.

We'll see you Monday. And do do send in. those emails about the show, about life, about anything on your mind. It's Megan. at megankelly.com. [music]. See you Monday.