Alex Murdaugh Convictions OVERTURNED, Plus the TRUTH About the "Sex Recession," with Dr. Debra Soh

Hey everyone, I'm Megan Kelly. Welcome. to the Megan Kelly show. Oh my goodness, we have we have news for you. Uh the. second hour we're gonna have be joined. by Dr. Deborah. So she's got a. fascinating new book and we're going to. get into some of the Christy Gnome Brian. Gnome issues. But we have got to begin. with stunning legal news this morning. By a unanimous vote, the South Carolina. Supreme Court reversed the murder. convictions of Alec Murdoch. Mr. Murdoch. is the high-profile South Carolina. attorney accused of shooting and killing.

his wife Maggie along with his son Paul. in June of 2021. His six-week trial in. 2023 captivated the nation. We covered. it gave the gavl here. Uh and he was. ultimately convicted of both murders. As. a reminder, here is the 911 call Alec. Murdoch made when he claimed he. discovered the bodies. And this call was. played in court. Watch.

>> 4147. Mosel Road. I've been up to it now. It's. bad. >> Okay. >> Okay. And are they breathing? >> No, ma'am. >> Okay. And you said it's your wife and. your son? >> My wife and my son. Are they in a. vehicle? >> No, ma'am. They're on the ground out at. my kennel. >> Okay. And did you see anyone? Okay. Is.

he breathing at all? >> No. No. >> Is she okay? Do you see anything? Do you. see anyone in the area? >> No, ma'am. No, ma'am. What color is your house on the outside? What color is your house on the outside? Uh, >> it's white. You can't see it from the. road. >> Okay. Is it a house or a mobile home? >> It's a house. >> Okay. And what is your name?

>> My name is Alex Murdoch. >> Okay. Did you hear anything or did you. come home and find them? >> No, man. I've been gone. I I just came. back. And was anyone else supposed to be at. your house? >> No, ma'am. >> Please hurry. >> We're getting somebody out there to you.

>> Oh. Oh, >> while he's continued to maintain his. innocence, was found guilty and few that. watched the trial had much doubt about. his guilt. However, every defendant in this country is. entitled to a fair trial and to due.

process unfettered. by influence from any third party. And. that is the reason why we and other. respected legal scholars have said for a. while now that though for example in my. case I believe he did this he's entitled. to a new trial. I I said that before I. said this on this program not because I. like Alec Murdoch but because the court. clerk interfered with this jury in a way.

that could not possibly allow this. verdict to stand. and the South Carolina. Supreme Court agrees. They're going to. give him another shot. They've just. reversed the denial of his motion for a. new trial, meaning he's going to get his. new trial. Uh because the five justices. on that court found, quote, Colatin. County Clerk of Court Rebecca Hill. placed her fingers on the scales of. justice, thereby denying Murdoch his. right to a fair trial by an impartial.

jury. impartial jury, one that hadn't. been tampered with. The court determined. that the clerk, shown here, made. improper comments to the jury, and that. she even wanted to write a book about. the case, which she did, and that she. believed a guilty verdict would help. with sales. So, they not only knew that. she made the improper comments, they. knew her motivation for doing it. And. then they called in the jurors, not the. South Carolina Supreme Court, but the um.

lower court when this whole issue was. raised by the defense because they got. wind of what Becky had done, the court. clerk, and they had a whole hearing with. the jurors and went through them one by. one. Did you hear her say anything? What. did you hear her say? And the critical. the critical question, did it influence. your verdict? And notwithstanding the. fact that one juror known as juror Z. said, yes, yes it did. the lower court still refused to give. him a new trial. Um, now the Supreme.

Court in South Carolina writing, quote, "Accordingly, we hold Murdoch's right to. a fair trial by an impartial jury was. violated and the post-trial court aired. in denying his motion for a new trial.". Wow. So, what does all this mean? Joining me now for reaction, two people. who know this case very well, have. previously spoken to us about it and. talked about it a lot on their own. respective shows. Vinnie Palitan, who is. lead anchor for Court TV, as well as.

host of Vinnie Palletan Investigates, [music] and Charlie Condan, former. attorney general for the state of South. Carolina and now a criminal defense. attorney. Don't miss a moment. Subscribe to this. show on YouTube and follow me on Insta, Facebook, and X. This episode is. sponsored by Veracity, whose founder and. CEO, Ally Egan, has a story you should. hear. She is a certified hormonal health. coach who experienced the effects of. compromise compromised metabolic health.

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for up to 65% off. And make sure you use. my promo code, Megan, so they know we. sent you and you get that 65% discount. Uh, gentlemen, welcome back. What. [music] a stunning day. Charlie, let me. start with you as the former AG of this. state and I know you covered this gavvel. to gavel on a great podcast I listened. to you uh do throughout the course of. the trial. Your reaction to this news? >> Well, the the decision was not. surprising because the court telegraphed.

its feelings during the arguments. But I. am really surprised though that it was. unanimous. All five a procurium. They. obviously got together and decided it. would be best to have a an opinion from. everybody, not a specific justice. And I. think given the notoriety of the case, they wanted the the public to have. confidence in its decision. >> Yes. And I think the public will, Vinnie. I mean, I people will explain to. them what happened. I think most people.

haven't been paying attention to Becky. and her role in this, but as soon as you. hear what this court clerk did, you're. shocked. It shocks the conscience. >> No. and and you know I I I was down. there for the trial. So as an outsider, you know, going down to Colton County, um the feeling I got from the beginning, I was calling this a big trial in a. small town. And I think the the the. trial, the moment was just too big for. Becky. She didn't get it. Like she the. her eyes got really large and she knew.

everyone was coming in. I think at times. her heart was in the right place, but. she was in over her head and I don't. think she understood her role in all of. this with communicating with the jury. Like, tell them when lunch is, okay? Tell tell them what time they can leave. Um, tell them they you left your eggs in. the in the jury room, but don't talk. about the case. Don't talk about the. defendant. And that's what she did. So,

like to me, she was very naive. I don't. think she understood it. She was. relatively newly elected in the position. and was in over her head. And to me, to. you, to Charles, I think to all of us, it was obvious this couldn't stand. I. was the shocking part was when they. brought the jurors in, Megan, like you. said, and they told their stories and. the judge that the retired judge that. they brought back in for that to make. the decision, not the trial judge, said, "Ah, no problem." because they didn't.

want to do it again. They didn't want to. do the trial again. >> Yes. And and there's like this feeling. that a lot of us have like we all know. he did it. And the court even said in. denying his motion for a new trial. There was overwhelming evidence against. him in this case, which is a factor they. say they're allowed to consider in. whether to grant or not grant a motion. for a retrial. I will say, I mean, Charlie, I'd love to know your thoughts. because I heard you guys say nice things. about this clerk, Becky, who prior to. this had a good reputation, but I will.

say just my own impression now, and of. course, you've learned a lot more about. Becky since you you covered all this, um, is not that she made a good faith. mistake in not knowing what to what she. could and couldn't say to the jurors. I. I firmly believe that Becky Hill is a. pathological liar. She's lied. repeatedly. She's lied under oath when. caught here. She didn't say, "Oh my. gosh, I misunderstood." She lied about. what she'd done. The jurors contradicted. her. This court, Supreme Court uh of.

South Carolina said, "She has no. credibility. We don't find her credible. at all." I think if you're making an. honest mistake, you own it. You. apologize for it. She's she's lied at. every turn. But your thoughts? >> Well, it's hard to argue against what. you're saying, but I will say this about. Becky. I do think that Benny's right. that that that she really nice lady, former uh I think court reporter for for. one of our judges and she small town. lady. Well, I think one of the telling. pieces of information I got about her. after the trial was that she went on one.

of the I think the the Today show maybe. and she said that was the first time she. had been on an airplane. And I think. what had happened was that the the. notoriety of the case, the media coming. in there really went to her head. I do. think I hear what you're saying about. her being a pathological liar. But my. sense of it is that really nice person. when she got caught with her hand in the. cookie jar, so to speak, she went down. the path that so many people do that. that are otherwise nice good people and. just kept on on lying about it. So, I I.

don't know if it's her character that is. immensely flawed, but I do think it's. it's fair to say that in that moment. that she did not meet the moment. And I. want to say this, too, uh in reference. to the um to the judge that heard the. post-trial motions. I think it should be. noted it really wasn't just any judge. It was Jean Tol. She was the former. chief justice of our Supreme Court. And. one of the surprising aspects of uh of. the opinion, it's a 27page opinion. I've. read it. at the end they they they.

commend her for her service and said it. was a murky area of law. And I do think. that's correct. If you if you read all. the South Carolina cases on jury. tampering, they are all over the map. You can you can argue both sides of that. I think very uh very effectively. And. what this Supreme Court has now done is. they've given us a very clear road map. here in South Carolina that that the. Remmer versus United States supplies. There's a three-step analysis you have. to go through when there's this type of. contact with with the jurors. And I do. think in fairness to former Chief.

Justice Tol, the cases that she was. looking at, they were they were murky. And the Supreme Court recognized that. >> Charlie, you're so sweet. You've always. been nice and defensive of the local uh. judges and and officials involved in. this case. I am not sweet [laughter] and. less inclined to give these people the. benefit of the doubt, though. I I. thought Gene Tol was impressive as she. reviewed this case. She had quite a. quite a whopper handed to her um as.

stepping in right after this case came. to verdict to see whether the court. clerk had queered the verdict by messing. with the jurors. Like such an. extraordinary and rare thing. And I'm. sure her inclination was having been. around the block many times not to throw. this bone to the defendant because they. are always trying to oversee the verdict. or overturn the verdicts. It's like you. know we see that in every case. But but. this Becky Vinnie, here's just one. example. This is her splitting hairs, but she did lie repeatedly under oath. saying she hadn't done it. She um didn't. have these communications and it just.

wasn't true. Here's one where she tried. to get specific. This is where Dick. Harput, former multiple time guest of. many of my shows at Fox News, a great. lawyer and he represented Alec Murdoch, uh cross-examined her on what she did. and did not say to the jurors. Here it. is in Saut 2. Did you tell the jury not. to be fooled by the evidence presented. by Mr. Murdo's lawyers? >> Mr. Hartpulian, I never talked to the. jurors about any of the evidence. >> The answer would be yes or no. Then you. can explain. Did you say that? >> No.

>> Okay. Did you ever tell the jury to pay. attention to Mr. Murdo's testimony? >> To pay attention, not specifically to. his testimony. I did tell the jury to. pay attention um. >> to what? Just generally in the hallway. when I was speaking. >> not to him. >> No, >> just any witness. >> Right. >> Okay. You got any other books in the. works? >> No, sir. >> I mean, doesn't this make a good book?

and Vinnie. Um, in the Supreme Court. decision that we just got, South. Carolina Supreme Court, they go through. the testimony that they heard at that. hearing, including from Jur, a female. who uh said that Hill told some. collection of the jurors, it was later. determined, three of them heard it, to. quote, "Watch his actions." This is the. day that Murdoch was about to take the. stand. "Watch his actions. Watch him. closely." She added that Hill said more,

but she couldn't remember it. Jersey. explained Hill's statements did. influence her to find him guilty. And um. her affidavit, Jersey submitted, gave. even more detailed um details on what. Hill said. Toward the end of the trial, quoting here from her affidavit, after. the president's day break, but before. Mr. Murdoch testified, the clerk of. court, Rebecca Hill, told the jury, quote, "Not to be fooled by the evidence. presented by Murdoch's attorneys." not. to be fooled, which I understood to mean. that Murdoch would lie when he.

testifies. She also instructed the jury. to watch him closely immediately before. he testified, including to look at his. actions and look at his movements, which. I understood to mean he was guilty. And. then she testified that when the jury. began its deliberations, Becky told the. jury, "This shouldn't take us long. I This is so bad." Um, then she said, "I. I did have questions about Murdoch's. guilt, but I voted guilty because I felt. pressured by the other jurors, which be. would come back later." But all of that.

is contradicted. I mean, Becky. contradict all of that under oath. And. this juror had absolutely no reason to. lie and it played directly into today's. decision. Yeah, that that's. problematically just the fact like from. my perspective looking you know covering. our system of justice every day for. decades now like a bright line don't. talk to the jury about anything other. than just logistics. We we you know and you're and and the. problem here is like she's like part of. the court and and her perception in that.

courtroom was she was kind of like the. judge's right-hand. you know gal or whatever in terms of. running things. So, what she says is. going to have much more influence than. if it was just some rando um outside or. if she over or if someone overheard one. of us from the media speaking really. loudly in front of the courthouse like I. was doing. Like her influence is much. greater because she's seen as part of. the system and closely tied to the. judge. And you know how jurors are with.

judges? Like that's who they look to. like the judge is the one guiding them. through the system. And if this is. someone who's kind of in with the judge. and is telling us to do something, well, I guess we should do it. >> Yeah, she had the air of authority of. being connected to the judge. And I. mean, this is so egregious, Charlie. Uh, this shouldn't take long. [laughter]. >> What defense lawyer wouldn't be setting. his hair on fire when they heard that? >> No, they they they had they had uh they. definitely had had that information, but.

couple of things, not to to make too. fine a point here. Most of the jurors, I. think 10 or 11 of them testified that. there was nothing that was said to them. that was unourred. That was the actual. evidence at at the evidentiary hearing. And in looking at juror Z, I think. Justice Tol wrongly hung her hat on. this. But juror Z, follow me on this. She gave an affidavit in which she said, "I was pressured by the other jurors.". She then testified. >> yes. >> that that was the more accurate.

statement of her feeling mean meaning. that the pressure on the jur the. pressure she got from other jurors was. the reason that she voted the way she. did not the improper conduct. So I think. justice tool wrongly again I'm not here. to def to to criticize the court's. decision. I think overall it's correct. I I do think that we now have clear. standards in South Carolina when you. have this kind of conduct. Even if it's. going only to one or two jurors, that's. the end of it. Unless the state can. overcome that presumption. The court. also gave us another road map though. Don't know if you recall that part of of. the discussion, but there in the opinion.

there's a court rule that you cannot and. this is a federal court rule as well. that you can't go into the can't have. evidence about what the jurors discussed. during deliberations. The court firmly. ruled that yes, when Justice Tol, former. Chief Justice Tol allowed that testimony. in that was a violation of the court. rule and therefore in the future you. can't go there with this. The state is. is really hamstrung. It can only go by. other evidence to overcome the. presumption when there's a when there's. this proper improper jury tampering. So.

now at least we've got clearer guidance. I I guess the really sad part about all. this, and I think this is really the the. sad part of of of what's happened here, is because of the really the improper. conduct of of this clerk, having sat at. this six-week trial and knowing the. preparation that all of these lawyers. had to had to go into. You know, I hired. the prosecutor who prosecuted the case. I I knew I knew the judge from him being. a former prosecutor. Dickartin, you. mentioned he ran against he and I were. were both he was a Democratic nominee.

for attorney general. I was a Republican. nominee and and I won that election. So. all these people who were in court for. six weeks every day from from early in. the morning to late in the in the day. all that is for not this defendant gets. a new trial. >> Yeah. And all the court was sure to. point out how great. >> the the lawyers were. The court wanted. us to know that. They wrote uh uh okay,

Hill shocking jury interference was. accomplished outside the presence and. knowledge of the outstanding trial judge. and superbly competent and professional. counsel for the state and the defense. So the no one had any issue with what. the judge did or what the lawyers did. It was the damn clerk. Vinnie, have you. ever seen it before in all your years at. Court TV? >> No. Never. Never. Ever. Ever. And and in. most of the cases we cover, the clerk. doesn't even have any sort of role in. the case. There's a baiff.

>> No, there the clerk gets no air time. >> No, the baiff will bring the the jury. back and forth and that's it. There's. like one one person usually here. Again, it's about the moment. You have to. understand how small this town is, Megan. When when we all showed up, they. were afraid that we were going to starve. because the restaurants in that town are. open a couple days a week, some of them. only at night. So, they brought they. made sure that there were food trucks. for all of us. They coordinate. everything. They bent over backwards to.

welcome everyone into town. >> But you have but the people there aren't. used to that. And and and again, I I. think uh Charlie's right with what. happened with Becky. She didn't meet the. moment. It got out of control and it. snowballed on her. So everything that. she did after the fact and trying to. like, oh my goodness, what am I doing. here? Um, makes her look even more. You. guys are both. >> She wasn't going to make money on sell. her book. >> Megan She wanted to sell her book and. she knew a girl a guilty verdict would.

be more helpful. There's that's all over. the record. That's not my speculation. That's fact. >> How much money can you make from a. self-published book? Come on. Have you. seen enough to do a town that only has. restaurants open twice a week? >> Have you Have you read the book, Megan? I did. Have you read the book? >> Well, we did read large portions of it. when we covered her plagiarism, Vinnie. There's a pattern of dishonesty. You. stepped right in it. >> I have I have to say. >> she plagiarized her book.

>> I have to say. >> I'm trying, Becky. I'm trying for you, Becky. I'm trying [laughter] my best. >> Go ahead, Charlie. >> She needs better counsel. Yeah, I do. have to say that I did read the book and. I thought, boy, this book is really not. that great except that the beginning is. really good and that's the part that. Becky plagiarized. >> She plagiarized it. If memory serves off. of a journalist, right, with whom she. had corresponded that was good or whose. stuff she had. >> read. was good. >> [laughter].

>> So, the court, we've we've talked about. it a little, but I just want to get. explicit on it because we have had this. legal debate on this program when it. came up and it was what standard will. the court use in deciding whether. Becky's behavior is reversible error, you know, for the judge not to have. considered it as a deal breakaker. And. um the the question was whether they. would was it enough to allege and prove. interference. which my understanding is that would do.

it at the federal court level. If you. can prove interference with a juror, you. know, material interference, then you. can get a reversal in a new trial. Or. did you also have to prove interference. and prejudice like and it did affect the. verdict and you can prove that it. affected the verdict and um that's that. was the higher South Carolina standard. And amazingly, the defense team in my. view met they met it. They got juror Z.

to take the stand and say the following. here in S3. >> Was your verdict. influenced in any way by the. communications of the clerk of court in. this case? >> Yes, ma'am. >> And how was it influenced? To me, it felt like.

she made it seem like he was already. guilty. >> Did that affect your finding of guilty. in this case? >> Yes, ma'am. >> They had it right there like. >> except so open. >> Yeah. except that the defense put in her. affidavit. which had this business about about hey. I was pressured by the other jurors and. then the court relied upon that.

>> Yeah, Charlie, let me just read that. Let me just read that and then I'll give. it to you. This is from the Supreme. Court's opinion. Again, South Carolina. Supreme Court juror testified that when. the jury began deliberations, Becky Hill. told the jury, "This shouldn't take us. long." In addition to referencing Hill's. statements, Jur aired in her affidavit, quote, I had questions about Mr. Murdoch's guilt, but voted guilty. because I felt pressured by. the other jurors. She doesn't say by. Becky Hill, the clerk, by the other. jurors. And that's what um the judge,

Judge Tol, picked up on and said to Jur, quote, I asked you previously, was your. verdict influenced in any way by. communications from Becky Hill, the. clerk of court. You answered that. question, yes. In light of what you said. in the affidavit, which is, "I had. questions about his guilt, but voted. guilty because I felt pressured by the. other jurors, is that answer that I just. read a more accurate statement of how.

you felt?" And juror Z answered yes. So, Juror Z did tell Judge Tol, "The greater. influence on me was my fellow jurors who. guilted me into finding him guilty." And. that was enough for Judge Tol to say. that's this is not something we would. reverse a guilty verdict on. And now. Charlie, you believe the standard has. been changed as a result of this opinion. to sort of just say material. interference is enough to get a a.

verdict overturned. >> Yes. The the Supreme Court now has made. it very clear and they acknowledge it's. a murky had been a murky era of the law. It's no longer murky. It's very clear. Remmer versus the United States is is. our standard. so that if you have this. kind of unpro improper conduct, you get. a new trial unless the the government or. the state can rebut it. And so we've got. a very clear roadmap here. And this is a. bit off topic, but I have to say this, Megan, the way you um phrase these. questions, it just shows that you have. just really high level of intelligence.

And I can remember that I can remember. and really well well articulated. And I. I remember seeing maybe a couple weeks. ago something about the president saying. something about you maybe not being so. bright. I want to say for the record. that you are extremely bright, very. talented and uh the president is wrong. about you. Uh for sure. >> Oh, you are so sweet, Charlie. I I. appreciate you vouching that I am not in. fact a low IQ nut job. I [laughter]. I love it. I didn't see it coming, but I.

love it. Um my crack team has reminded. me on our discussion about. your best friend Becky Vinnie [laughter]. that the person she plagiarized, I knew. it was a journalist, was BBC journalist. Holly Hondurich. and um the plagiarism stemmed from. emails from this reporter who. accidentally sent them to Hill. Uh they. were discovered after a trove of Becky. Hills emails were made public in. response to a foyer request.

The email showed that reporter Holly. Hondrich sent Hill two drafts of an. article she was writing about the double. murder trial. Uh, and Hondich had. intended to send the drafts to her. editor, also named Rebecca. >> When she discovered the mistake, she. asked Hill to delete her emails. Hill. said she would. Instead, months later, Hondridge's words appeared right at the. beginning, by the way, of Hill's book. Now your sweet little cupcake Vinnie.

Palitan has got a history [laughter] of. dishonest behavior. >> again in over her head. She wanted to. write a book. She didn't know how to. write a book. She's like she committed. to the book and now I've got to put. words on paper. I thought it would be a. little bit easier. Oh, wait. Here are. some words. Let me put them on. >> Oh, who? My my muse. My muse from the. BBC. [laughter]. Okay, I want to keep going because there. is a real question now about what's. gonna happen. Vinnie, what's gonna. happen now? >> Oh, I I'm making my reservations.

already. Unless they get a change of. venue. >> You are, right? >> Yeah, of course. The the See, this is. the great thing, right? Cuz I believe, you know, I I listened to the evidence. I saw the evidence. I believe he did it. I think it was obvious. Um once we saw. the whole case, I thought it was put. together very well. The defense did. their best, but like it is what it is. The facts are what they are. Um, at the. end of the day, when a criminal. defendant wins an appeal, they win the. right to be convicted again on Court TV.

So, I I think that's I think that's. where we're headed in this one. Although, it does seem there'll be a. another slight change in some of the. evidence. I think uh prosecutors will. have to pull back a little bit in in the. way that they present some of the. financial crime evidence in the case. That was another big point by the. defense in their appeal. So, I think. they may have to rein that in a little. bit, but at the end of the day, it's. it's the there's such great evidence in. this case, and you have the defendant. himself. I think the the the the only.

outstanding question will be, will he. testify again? >> Yeah, that's a good question. Wait, before I get you, because I know. Charlie, you're an expert on all this. and what's likely to happen or what is. going to happen next and and I want to. hear that. But before that, I wanted to. make an additional point on Becky. Um, one of the issues, sorry, [laughter] but. one of the issues about. what she did. Okay, so she spoke to the. jurors directly the day that Alex. Murdoch testified and apparently the day.

that they got the case as well. You. know, this this shouldn't take long, the. deliberations. Uh, but she there was. also the problem of what Becky Hill did. or did not do with respect to the. so-called egg juror. Vinnie made a joke. earlier about, you know, the clerk of. court maybe tells you you have your eggs. back in the jury room. That that was an. on-point joke and and he was referencing. something that it really did happen in. the case where one juror got. disqualified. the day of the deliberations, the day of. the closing arguments into.

deliberations. And the reason she got. disqualified was there had been a. question about whether she'd been. discussing the case outside of the. courthouse. And and she shouldn't have. been discussing the case at all at this. point because they hadn't even gone into. deliberations. and there was a. possibility that her disgruntled. ex-husband had maybe said something. online about this, etc. Well, I did not. I did I have followed this case closely, but apparently not that closely because. I missed.

what. what Becky Hill allegedly said to the. egg juror, who did get dismissed and. replaced by an alternate. the day that they that she was egg juror. found herself in trouble and had to go. see the judge because this stuff had. come out. Did she talk about the case. out of school? She and good old Becky. had a discussion and testimony was. submitted about what that discussion was. and here is a bit of that from the.

proceeding before Judge Tol. >> So she [clears throat] called or she. spoke to Miss Hill. Correct. >> Yes sir. >> And Miss Hill told her according to the. egg juror the Murdoch probably got to. him. You agree that's what she said in. her affidavit? >> That's what she said in her affidavit. >> Okay. And then Miss Hill asked her if. she was leaning one way or the other. And the juror egg juror said, "Uh, Mr. Waters closing was good, but I still.

have questions.". And she said, "What kind of questions?". And she told Miss Hill she had questions. about the guns. I suppose couldn't find. them or they were too used. And then. Miss Hill asked her, "What makes you. think he's innocent?" and she said the. video at the kennels. Uh, and then she said, Miss Hill said, "Everything. the defendant has said has been lies and. you should be forget about the guns.

They will never be seen again." Are. those uh fleeting comments or are those. egregious? >> Your honor, those would be hard pressed. to defend. Yes, sir. That would be much. different from what I'm arguing this. record. And then Miss Hill told her that. the four person should just go in and. ask for a raise of hands and this will. be over and done with and everybody. needs to be on the same page. >> So I'm struggling number one with why. the egg juror wasn't allowed to testify. because that was directly impeaching of.

Miss Hill's testimony that she said. nothing. >> That's amazing. So clarifying obviously. that was not Judge Tol who's female. That was one of the judge judges on the. South Carolina Supreme Court who's. wondering why at the judge toll hearing. this egg juror dismissed juror testimony. was not allowed because it's a smoking. gun on the character of Becky Hill. I. mean honestly, Charlie, have you ever. heard of something so egregious? >> Well, you you uh you're doing a very.

good job of prosecuting Becky, I must. say. It's uh it's it's it's [laughter]. getting harder and harder to defend her. But I still stick with my earlier. comments relative to to I I do think. that the Benny's right. If you'd been. there, I mean, Walter Burough, it's the. front porch of low country, very small. town, really nice people. It's a the. county is is population-wise small. And. so this massive international media just. comes into Walterboro. And I do think it. went to Becky's head. And again, not to.

defend her at all what she did with this. with the with the jurors, but I just. think deep down inside, I think. basically she's not a morally corrupt, horrible woman. I think she's got some. really good qualities. But again, it's. very clear she did not meet the moment. here in this trial. >> Very clear. >> No, she did not. No, no, she did not. meet the moment. But so that all of that. is what wound up getting this ruling uh. from the high court and uh and the.

question about what happens next, Charlie. So. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> Because he already was convicted on all. these financial crimes which will keep. him in jail for the rest of his life. alone without the murder convictions. So. what does the state do now? >> You're right. 40 years federal court. sentence, 27 years state court sentence. They're running concurrently. But the uh. the news today is that all of the. candidates running for attorney general. have said that they would reprosecute. uh this defendant. They would take.

office in January. The current AG, Alan. Wilson, said he would he would. reprosecute. Of course, he won't be AG. when uh when when the case would come. up. So, it looks like and also my. understanding is the Democratic nominee. uh says the same thing. So, everybody's. saying they're going to reprosecute. So, I guess we'll see you soon, I guess, at. Walterboro, right, Vinnie? >> Yeah, I I'll be there for sure. For. sure. >> Is there any chance that the that they. strike a deal? Like, is there a deal to. be made now?

>> I don't I don't think he'll ever admit. to murdering his wife and his son. He'll. he'll never do that. Even if it's. concurrent, I don't think he does that. >> Yeah, I agree. And Vinnie, wouldn't he. also want the time out of prison, sitting in the courthouse, getting nicer. meals, seeing his family? That's a much. more pleasant experience than sitting in. this correctional facility he's now in, which is reportedly not so nice. >> A good point. It really would be. I am. sort of curious of the economics here.

because it's my understanding that the. attorneys were retained initially and. that you got the sense as the trial wore. on that their budget maybe got very low. I don't think this defendant is uh has. any resources now that that I'm aware. of. Everything's been taken, I think, through the civil processes. So, my my. expectation would be that his current. attorneys would stick with him really. pro bono. We'll see what happens. But, uh I do think we're looking. >> They were asked they were asked at um a. presser, I think after one of these.

court proceedings, would you represent. him if he gets a new trial? And they. said that's up to Alec Murdoch, but yes, we would. So, the question wasn't then. asked, what if he can't pay you. anything? And it's one of those things. for these well-known defense lawyers. Do. you do it for the PR? You know, because. you're in the news every day for six. weeks, it makes you a national star. It. did for these guys, too. Or not because you need to pay your. bills just like anybody else. Not. And I. mean, I suppose they could do it out of. the loyalty to Alec, too. Go ahead.

>> Well, I think when you talk about public. relations, um, there's only a downside. if they don't do it. other criminal. defendants might think a little less of. hiring these guys if they're not loyal. to the end. Um even if they're not. getting paid because they're going to. presume that they got paid a lot the. first time around. And I don't I don't. know what the numbers are. Um I have no. idea. But at the end of the day, I think. there's only a downside to that if they. don't stay on. And by the way, there'll. be a line of attorneys who will do it. for free, who will jump in the case. So,

so you may see a situation where maybe. someone jumps in to help them a little. bit in in all of this just so they can. continue the rest of their practice and. continue to generate income. >> That's a good point. >> I mean, what what about a change of. venue, Charlie, because now the whole. world, but certainly all of South. Carolina knows he was convicted for. these crimes. So, even if you wanted the. ch to change the venue, where on earth. could you go? you'd have to go, I don't.

know, to some place without television. or any electronics. Like, what what do. you think Harput does to try to try to. get his client a fair trial this time. around? >> I would think we've got 46 counties in. South Carolina. I can't imagine one. county that doesn't have the same amount. of jurors saying what they would say. about I've already made up my mind. That. is the standard. It's not that you've. heard publicity. it's that can you put. that aside and be fair and listen only.

to the evidence in the courtroom. So my. expectation would be they would start in. Colton to see how it goes and if they. can't get a panel there then to ask for. a change of venue but again that's a. strategic decision. I did get the sense. you know uh ALEC has a lot of local. family there. I did get the sense they. sort of like being there. They like. being in Colton. So my expectation we. would see a retrial in Colton. And what do you think, sticking with you. on this, Charlie, because this is a. particular question about the procedure,

what will change in the second trial? Because, you know, it's interesting to. me that juror Z said the reason she was. thinking Alec Murdoch was not guilty was. the tape at the kennels because that's. the thing for the most of the rest of us. that sealed his fate as guilty. He said. he I think the listening audience knows. what happened in this case, but I guess. I should have given a couple lines. Uh. long story short, his son Paul was. involved in this boating accident in. which Paul got very drunk and ran the. boat into a piling, killing Mallerie.

Beach, uh a teenage friend of his. The. parents filed a lawsuit against the. Murdoch. It would wind up spiraling to a. place where Alec was going to have to. make a bunch of financial disclosures. and was going to have to sit for. depositions and the family finances were. going to come under a microscope. He. panicked during all of this and I'm. really short forming here, but wound up. killing that son who had driven the. boat, Paul, along with his mother, uh, Paul's mother and Alex's wife. And, um,

this was done as a sympathy ploy because. Alec's law firm was also looking zeroing. in on Alec in the context of all this. pressure on him. And he was, so he's. getting examined by his law firm, which. we now know he had embezzled from. He. was getting examined by the community. and potentially by these good lawyers. representing Mallalerie Beachch's family. about finances which would have put his. financial schemes into the open. And the. theory of the prosecution was he did. this. He murdered his own family as a. sympathy ploy. And it worked because his. law firm backed off on its requests for.

documents from him. They felt so bad. about what had happened. And even the. lawyers representing the Beach family, you know, they felt bad. They were kind. of going to leave him alone potentially. because they just felt like, oh, this is. awful. meanwhile, that's why he did it. Um, so, so back to what could happen at. the next trial because what really I. think helped do him in was he testified. even though his par his family was. killed down at those kennels that night. by two different guns and there were no. eyewitnesses that he was he was not.

there. He hadn't gone to the kennels. that night. He had been over with his. ailing mother who had dementia and was. dying. And. Paul, before he was killed, had taken. out his phone and taken a video of dogs. who were at the kennels. And Alex's. voice can clearly be heard in the. background. It's very eerie. His son in. that way convicted his own father. His. his son and that videotape were the. lynch pin to this whole thing. He It's.

as if moments before his death, he. pointed the finger at his murderer. Actually, we've got the sound bite. We'll play it. Here it is. >> Hey, he's got a bird in his mouth. >> Hey, Bubba. >> It's a kitty. >> This is a chicken. Come here. Come here, C.

that put the lie to Alex claim that he. had not been at the kennels. It's really. what forced him to take the stand and. try to explain to the jury why he lied. and just sort of went on about how he'd. been on drugs and he panicked and. whatever. Nobody believed him. And so. the question now knowing all about the. tape, team Murdoch, knowing it's. absolutely coming in, knowing how the. prosecution will use it, how bad it. makes him look, how he cannot get rid of.

it with it with his weird explanations. as the witness he thought he would be, and then there's the witness he actually. was. What do they do differently? Because they they will make different. better decisions. These are very good. lawyers. Yeah, that that's an excellent summary. And you know, I thought about this a. good bit actually after the oral. arguments at the Supreme Court where. they telegraphed I think the the. decision we have today. And I've. prosecuted a a number of cases that came. back and we had retrials when I was the.

the prosecutor here in the Charleston. area. And to my experience, a retrial. typically benefits the state because you. know what the defense is doing. I think. in this case though, it's completely. different. I think the defense has a. real advantage because the way that. trial went down, there was all sorts of. technical information that came in. It. came in rather rapidly that really. provided all sorts of circumstantial. evidence that supported the state's. theory. And I think they have a real. opportunity here now to to reconstruct.

how they did things and do things quite. differently. So, I think it's going to. and also I do think the defendant will. not testify next time. My understanding. is he wanted to testify. However, maybe. they can put into evidence since it was. under oath anyway. Uh, and sworn. testimony subject to cross-examination. Maybe they can put that in anyway. But I. think the defense is going to have a. real advantage here. And I think it's. the state will not have as easy time. There's a Himalayan mountain of evidence. against him. But I do think that they're. going to be put to to the test a bit. more than they were in the first trial. Well, it's an interesting thing to.

consider, Vinnie, because. you mentioned the technical discoveries. that were done late that got into. evidence. For example, all the evidence. around the the car, Alex car, and my. god, your car is completely spying on. you if you have anything that was. purchased within the last couple years. It can tell them everything. Like, good. luck trying to get get away with I. wasn't speeding or I don't look at my. phone while I'm driving. Between your. phone and your car, they know everything. you've done. It's it's good incentive. not to text and drive. Um, but it the.

reason the financial crimes were. admitted, Vinnie, into evidence is. because the defense opened the door. They opened the door, right? That was. one of the ones that that they. regretted. I think the defense and so. the defense has the opportunity not to. make these same mistakes. Um, I think. they open the door. Didn't they open the. door on. [sighs] the the guy who got the guy who. shot Alec on the side of the road? The. defense made a couple of blunders during.

the course of the trial. >> Yeah. Cousin Eddie, that opened the door. to testimony that was very bad for Alec. and they will not be doing that this. time around. So, I mean, notwithstanding. the fact that everybody listening to. this trial in the jury box will have. will will know he was already convicted, the trial in front of them that they're. supposed to make their decision off of. is probably going to be more favorable. to the defendant. >> Yeah, I agree. I agree. And the analysis. has been perfect. But I think the. biggest factor in all of this and what's. going to be the difference between trial.

one and trial two is I think the defense. is gonna double down and try to find 12. egg ladies to be in that jury box. And I. think there's a better chance to find. people like that. This trial, obviously. the case was big. Everybody kind of knew. about it. There were a couple of. documentaries. It was all the buzz uh. down in the low country. But after the. trial itself, which became bigger than. big, everybody knew almost every detail.

about it. So now when you're looking for. the jury, the the pro prospective jurors. are going to know the story. And now. who's going to be left in the box? Only. those people who have who who haven't. made up their minds. Who are these. people? >> Oh boy. >> Like who are these people? These are the. people who were down in Orlando, Florida, when I was covering another. trial involving a mother whose. daughter's uh body was in the trunk of. her car for weeks. That's who was left.

Like because of how big that story was. before the trial, the the 12 that ended. up in the jury box were the 12 that Oh, yeah. Well, I don't know. Maybe maybe. she didn't do it. And that's that's I. think the defense's best shot here is. that you have 12 egg ladies um who. despite everything that we've seen and. heard through the documentaries and now. the actual trial itself are still saying. I don't know maybe he didn't do it.

You know, there's a weird dynamic now. that's going to be at play, Charlie, that wasn't in the first trial as much, I guess, which is I don't know, especially women, I hate to say it, they. may have a bit of a savior complex here. Like, >> I can swoop in. I can relieve him of. this terrible fate. >> They can't really because of the. financial convictions. But, okay, maybe. they're they're not going to hear about. that. They're not going to be told. anything about your verdict doesn't. matter. he's still going to sit in.

prison. Um I we talked yesterday on this. program for an hour and a half about the. Michael Jackson movie and what the. evidence is against him. You know, was. he a child molester or wasn't he? And um. I do think there's a huge faction of the. population that just doesn't want to. believe it. They. >> admired him. For Michael Jackson, we. know why they admired him and they just. won't believe it. And for Alec Murdoch, I think there'll be there could be a. similar dynamic where he was very well. known. He had he a lot of swagger. He.

was respected in the community. Now. they're going to know potentially. probably that he was wrongfully sent to. jail. And it's like, okay, I I have the. chance to be the savior. >> That's a good point. I I remember. speaking with Dickart Pley during the. trial and he said they focus grouped the. uh the case and but by far the strongest. reaction they got from people who would. be favoring a not guilty would be how. could a father kill his beloved son and. his beloved wife. And so you're right uh.

both of you made very astute comments. and and to Vinnie to your point in. thinking about it you make a really good. point. If if you haven't made up your. mind based upon watching the trial with. all the evidence out there that he's. guilty, if you're honest, when you come into the. jury panel, you're going to tell the. judge, "I've already made up my mind.". And you know, I think that's going to be. probably a lot of people, if not most. So, the ones that are left, if you. haven't made up your mind based upon. what's out there, you may be very much a. defensrone juror. So, the state may.

indeed have a very hard time with uh. with convicting this defendant. Again, we'll just have to see despite the fact. there's so much evidence. >> Charlie, do we know what is going on. with Buster Murdoch, who is the. remaining surviving son who was a couple. years older than Paul and had gone to. law school but been kicked out, right, the last I heard, for academic. dishonesty. >> Well, this is a bit of hearsam.

repeating, but I think it's a reliable. source. Someone told me fairly recently. that he was uh in the uh in the Buford. area selling clothing and I believe he's. happily married. >> Oh wow. Oh well I mean the documentaries. about the family do show him with a. loyal partner who seemed to be very. supportive of him. I'm going to check. myself on the academic dishonesty. Uh. standby, but go ahead V. >> Yeah. So uh I can verify that because we. had the video. We showed it. Um he he's. selling clothing. He's trying to just. live his life. He's married to uh I.

think his wife's name is Brooklyn. Um. she's an attorney and you know in all of. this he he kind of gets lost in the. shuffle a little bit, right? Like. because he he he's got the red hair. He. he reminds you of of Alec to a certain. extent, but like. >> he is a victim of all of this. Like he. lost his mother. Oh yeah. He lost his. brother. I don't know exactly what he. believes about his father, but at the. end of the day, Buster is a victim. And. I, you know, yeah, his last name is. Murdoch, but I I feel bad for him. I.

feel bad for him. Like, you don't have. your mom anymore. >> Oh, some of these documentaries have him. convicted of murdering this other. resident of the community who was gay. And they speculated that Buster was gay. And they've basically convicted Buster. of a murder that he's had absolutely no. charges for. I mean, it's really he's. been through the ringer, this guy. He. was indeed uh forced out of law school. due to plagiarism. Um guys, thank you. Such a good discussion. Looking forward. to part two. We'll have you on plenty.

then. All the best to you both. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> Crazy crazy [music] story. >> Hey, thanks for watching today's full. episode. If you're new here, throw us a. subscribe. See what you think. Stay in. touch. There's plenty more goodness. where this one came from. As always, we. really do value your feedback. So, email. me, too. Megan megnancell.com. or just leave a comment down below. I do. read them. I meander over and I scroll. through and I find them very. entertaining and really appreciate the. feedback. But in any event, join the.

community by becoming a subscriber. So, you miss nothing. We value your support. We may not always agree on positions, but as you know, I'm very open-minded to. people who disagree with me. That's how. I learn. So, thanks and thanks for. trusting us to always talk about it. openly, honestly, and with provocative. conversations. Missed calls and slow. follow-ups are silent killers. That's. how businesses leave money on the table. without even realizing it. That is why. today's episode is brought to you by. Quo, spelled Quo,

the business communications system built. so that you never miss a call. Your. entire team can handle calls and texts. from one shared number, meaning no more. dropped conversations. Everyone sees the. full thread. Replies are faster, and. your customers actually feel. prioritized. Quo works wherever you are, on your phone or on your computer. You. keep your existing number, you add. teammates in minutes, and then you sync. your CRM effortlessly. It is currently. the number one rated business phone.

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having less sex and reporting less. intimacy and connection than ever. before. At the same time, fewer young. people are getting married, starting. families, or forming long-term. relationships. So what's behind the. decline in sex and intimacy? Our next. guest is an expert on this and we are. glad to have her back. Dr. Deborah So is. a sex neuroscient. easy for me to say sex neuroscientist. and author of the book Sexinction: The.

Decline of Sex and the Future of. Intimacy. Deborah, welcome back. It's. great to have you. >> Hi, Megan. It's so wonderful to see you. again. >> Oh yeah, it's you, too. I mean, you were. one of our first guests on this show. when we were just audio only with uh. your your first book and now it's great. to have you back. Um, and everybody. should check that out, too. It's called. The End of Gender. Um, so you hear about. this all the time that the young people, they're not getting their driver's. licenses, they're not really drinking,

and they're not having sex. And while I. can understand those first two, I. there's Uber, people are living with. their parents longer. Um, I don't know. You drinking with the maja world taking. over is no longer favored. And by the. way, some of these kids have gummies and. things like that they use instead. But. no sex. So what what did you find? What. is the answer? So yeah, I was similarly. perplexed by this question because I. thought yes, Gen Z on average, they are.

reaching typical life milestones at a. delayed pace. But you would think if. they are, you know, not not driving and. not going crazy and partying, what are. they doing with their spare time. instead? So with sex extinction, I. wanted to determine is the sex recession. real? And I do believe it is because I. was quite skeptical before. Uh there the. first study showing that there was this. overall decline in sex was in 2016 and. it found that Americans were having less. sex than ever before. And this was. especially pronounced in millennials and. this was expected to continue on for Gen. Z. And so now what we see is globally.

there is this trend of people it doesn't. matter if they are married or single. where they live in the world whether. it's the east or the west all developed. countries all age cohorts um they are. having less sex people are having less. sex than ever before but this is. especially pronounced among millennials. and Gen Z and particularly men. So the. statistic I keep seeing is one in three. men and one in five women have not had. sex in the past year and succinction is. basically a science-based approach to. trying to understand why are we so. disconnected? what is taking the place.

of sex especially regarding what we know. nowadays with screens and smartphones. Uh I wrote the book as a guide for. parents to help them understand what to. anticipate in terms of child development. how to avoid making the same mistakes. potentially as we made with smartphones. and social media and but I would say. whether you're married or single or. dating or not interested in any of any. of the above um you'll get something out. of the book because I wrote it from that. perspective. I do think this is. something that affects everybody even. married people. Well, I know you you write about one of.

the problems because it seems to be. multiaceted the answer. And one of the. problems is that as women's financial. means rise, um so do their demands of. their partners. And unfortunately, that's happening at the same time that. we are dumping on men, not allowing them. into college, not allowing them into the. workforce because they're men and we. don't no longer favor them. and god. forbid there are white men or for that. matter an Asian man, they're not going. to get into a good college. You like all.

these societal factors are conspiring to. keep them down and prop up the women. But as the women get propped up. socioeconomically, they want someone. who's at least equal and they would. actually prefer higher status to them. And yet our societies are not allowing. that. >> Right? So women are hypergamous. This. means that they prefer partners who are. at the same level of success as they are. or who are more successful than they. are. So this is of course doesn't say. speak to all women but just on average. and evolutionarily speaking this makes. sense in terms of why women prefer.

someone who has status and resources to. provide for them and potential children. So what we have in education and in the. workforce is that women are far uh. excelling their male peers and I think. female success is a wonderful thing. I. think female ambition is wonderful, but. as you said, if we are at the same time. intentionally suppressing male success. through initiatives like diversity, having quotas that really favor women. and minorities instead of over merit, and in some cases explicitly punishing. men, as many of my former academic. colleagues will tell me, they will.

sometimes experience uh job postings. that explicitly say they are not hiring. for men. Especially in the sciences, there are again lots of programs, mentorship, uh opportunities for. explicitly for women and um early stage. researchers that are female explicitly. No such thing for men. If you tried to. advertise specifically for men, I think. that they would get shot down in two. seconds. So there's this bias there. And. so when you add those two things. together, what happens is there's a. smaller number of men whom women find.

attractive and whom they wish to date. But the thing is men don't care as much. about uh a partner's financial success. or resources. So these highly successful. men basically get their pick of women in. terms of no matter how successful a. woman is, all women are fighting for. this smaller pool of men. And the other. men who are less successful are. basically shut out of the mating market. You write about the uh three sixes rule. which women many women may inherently. have but winds up being an impossibility.

for virtually all women. Can you speak. to that? >> Right. So the three sixes refers to um. um basically top tier male specimen in. terms of dating. So, a man in from this. perspective, a man needs to be over six. feet tall, have an annual income of over. six figures, and have a I'm not sure if. I can say I'll say down bel down below. on your show, a penis that is over six. inches in length. So, it if you as a. woman pursue a man who does not meet.

these criteria, you it's considered. settling from this perspective. So I. think it's a little bit ridiculous. because from a say a research. perspective and I think if you talk to. anyone who's married those factors I. mean there's some truth to say the. annual income being uh enough that you. he can support you and your growing. family say or wanting a partner who is. taller because he can potentially. protect you and offer physical safety. but um you know in terms of penis length. penis penis growth is actually a greater. predictor of sexual satisfaction. So.

other factors like personality, common. com. [laughter]. >> we're having a tutorial today on on. penises on the Megan Kelly show. >> Yeah. So [laughter] I I think women. should be allowed to want what they. want. But at the same time, this is the. as I talk in succinction about the role. of social media and just how ridiculous. it's become in terms of telling both. sexes that they should aspire to attract. the highest status um partners possible. They have to check all these additional.

boxes. And I mean these partner, the. business potential partner, not only do. you have to find them, but you also have. to get along. Hopefully, they're nice to. you. Hopefully, they treat you well. And. things like agreeableness, that's so. much more important. Chemistry so much. more important in terms of a long-term. relation. >> Sense of humor. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Totally. Yes. You know, you write in the. book, this is actually good. Um, only. 14.5% of men in America are over six. feet tall. I didn't know that. Only. 14.5% of men in America are over six. feet tall. only 17% make over $100,000.

annually. And then you're right, considering that the average penis. length is about five inches, um an even. smaller percentage of men will meet all. three sixes. So women who whether. they're consciously requiring this or. unconsciously uh of course. subconsciously requiring this, you got. to check yourself on these ladies. because you are limiting the pool of. potential mates down to the single. digits at a time when the men are tough. to find to begin with. So o cast a wider.

net, open your heart, open your mind and. your legs [laughter] ultimately to. something less than six. Sorry. Okay. Now what's happening? What's happening. on the male side though? Because the one. thing that I when I when I got to this. point of the book, one thing I thought. first was it's probably SSRIs in in some. measure because SSRIs, these. anti-depressants, lower your [snorts]. libido. They make you not want to have. sex. And so many people are on them. because it's this younger cohort too.

that's being like just thrown on these. drugs by college counselors cuz they. swing by the office one time and like, "Hey, I'm not adjusting well." Oh, here. take this. And there's really not a. disclosure or discussion about how it. really could lower your libido in a. profound and unfortunate way, right? And in terms of especially. children being prescribed these. medications. So obviously for your. audience, I'm sure they're they're well. aware. Don't take advice from Deborah on. Megan Pelly's Megan Kelly's podcast. Speak to your mental health.

professional. But just speaking from a. research perspective, we don't really. know definitively what the long-term. effects are on of anti-depressants like. SSRIs on children or sex their sexual. development in to adulthood. And um so. that's concerning. And the other thing. is researching for this book was wild to. me because there are so many toxins in. our environment, in our food, in the. water supply, especially when it comes. to pharmaceutical waste that we may or. may not be fully aware of. So even if. you aren't intentionally taking.

anti-depressants or pharmaceutical drugs. or like the birth control pill, you may. be in fact exposed to it without your. knowing. So one of the well yeah one of. the well-known side effects of. anti-depressants um is low libido. But I. would also say for people I mean there's. a larger mental health crisis going on. especially among younger younger. generations. And when someone is. depressed I mean their mood is low they. don't really want to be around people. they isolate, their self-care goes down, you know, social skills are not really. um the priority. Socializing is not. really a priority. And then the same. with anxiety, so people are really.

self-conscious. So all of these things. together are creating this um context or. I guess mental state where where people. don't want to go out and date. They. don't want to have conversations with. people. And then with all of these. surrogates coming in where you have the. AI boyfriends and girlfriends, you have. pornography, you have sex dolls, and. eventually sex robots, which the. technology is moving forward quite. quickly. These replacements for. in-person sex and also connection make. it easier for people to stay in this. state of mind or I think make it less.

make them less incentivized to want to. move beyond their comfort zone. And. especially I'd say for Jenzi I really. feel for them because they did grow up. on screens. They don't really know a. life without the internet or social. media. And so when that's your norm, you're not it's a lot more difficult, I. think, to imagine a world that in which. that is not the center and that is not. how you talk to partners or potentially. meet partners or how you get sexual. gratification. But my my larger concern, I would say, yeah, with the low libido, it's it's not just the lack of sex, but. it's also this disinterest in connecting.

with other people and having emotional. intimacy, which is just as unhealthy, >> right? It's so sad because of course if. you're feeling it you're at home alone, depressed and lonely and you just don't. want to get out there and meet people. It's like the answer to your problems is. to get out there and meet people and. then those problems won't exist. Like. just push yourself a little and if you. actually do have a partner with whom. you're having sex, your life is going to. get better. Um you write in the book. that one in eight women, citing a. survey, one in eight women said using. social media makes her feel less.

sexually desirable. This is so. interesting because it's not only the. problem of oh we all have iPhones and I. I'd rather watch Netflix on my iPhone or. on my big screen than have sex which. you've also found in the studies that. you've surveyed that are cited in the. book. So there's that like I just want. to be distracted and escape to some. series rather than have bodily contact. with somebody. But it's also that for. the women going online on social media, Instagram in particular, I'm sure that's.

I inserted that makes the women feel. less sexually desirable. And you say one in 11 men also reported. feeling less interested in having sex. with his partner after looking at social. media influencers. So this reminds me, Deborah, so much. I've cited this. before, but Andrew Schultz, the. comedian, he's brilliant. [snorts]. He said once on, you know, the way the. comedians have the best insights into. our society, they're brilliant and. they're funny and that's what makes them. great. And he was saying women, they. obsess over like, "Oh god, I need to.

lose 20 pounds or you know, I'm worried. about this position and how it's going. to look or my cellulite or whatever.". And he's like, "We couldn't care less. Ladies, we couldn't care less. All we. want is access. We want to have the. experience with you. like please for the. love of God stop obsessing over those. things and um that that's these women. are looking at these perfect women in. quotes with like the perfect curated. lives and they feel fat, they feel. gross, they feel less than, undesirable.

Meanwhile, all their partners think like. Andrew Schultz thinks they honestly. don't care. I mean I was reading a study. of how young women gen women in. particular are looking to laboplasty as. a result of pornography exposure think. and avoiding sex actually feeling. anxious about their body and anxious. about having sex because their parts. don't look like pornographic actresses. So when you look at social media, there's this trend overall to have a. very particular look which I I go. insection I talk about this timeline.

from going from front-facing cameras and. selfies to filters to now we're getting. to more sophisticated AI and how this is. also spreading into cosmetic trends and. young in you know my hometown I see. teenagers fairly often walking around. with injectables in their face and I'm. thinking these girls are not even done. development yet and why do they feel the. need to radically change the way they. look? I think if if women or men want to. get cosmetic pro procedures, that's. their business and I'm not judging that. at all. I think especially if you have a. a public-f facing job nowadays, there's.

so much pressure. So, I fully understand. that. But for my concern is for children. especially or young women who are. essentially, you know, there's no. reason. There's absolutely no reason. And the only reason to me is because. they're um you know vested interests. that want to push this on on a. generation so that they feel insecure. and they feel that they need to look. outside of themselves to fill that gap. or to spend their money on things they. don't need. So with regard to say social. media, yeah, I think it's really. unfortunate that even people who have. partners are not interested in having.

sex with them or even as something as. simple as just being on your phone. swiping or scrolling when you're with. your partner. There are so many times. when I'm in public, I'll see young. couples and I I'll think, "Oh, that's. really sweet." And then I'll see both of. them are on their phones together. They're not interacting. The only time. they interact is when they point they. point at their phone to each other. So, you know, I think we'd all benefit from. spending less time on our screens. But. also to for the younger generation to be. aware that this is really not something. you need to be worried about. And like. you said, men are just happy. They're. happy with what they can get. They're. not going to notice that insecurity that.

you have. And I would say even as we get. older as women, men love it. Men love. MILs. So, we have nothing to worry. about. >> Yes. I think that's right. And I think. most women actually do want and would be. very happy with a man who is good to. them, who's kind to them, who pays. attention to them, who potentially can. provide for them, and wouldn't obsess. over, you know, how exactly how tall he. is, etc. Um, it did remind me that discussion that. your reference to what we see online and. how it's like young girls have these.

images that are not realistic. This. isn't about a filter, but it is about. obvious, in my opinion, disordered. eating. Um, to me more. is at I think it's Khan, right? The Khan. Film Festival is going on now and um. she's shockingly thin. She looks truly. anorexic. There was a um a screen grab. of her. The New York Post wrote this, but they weren't the only ones. They're. not the only ones who phrased it, but. they were like, "Oh, her toned arms were.

all the talk at Khan." Well, I correct. me if I'm wrong, and it's not Khan, my. team. But in any event, um you see this. picture of her, Deborah, she is skin and. bones. The the outreached arm does not. look like an arm with some muscle, you. know, and it's just toned, you know, like a Angela Basset, right? Who. infamously or famously played Tina. Turner and rocked that body as well as. Tina did it. She looks like like a.

Holocaust victim. Forgive me, but I mean. it's like just barely any muscle. Can we. put the picture on the board please of. just a teeny tiny like senuey thing. attached to a bone and the elbow is. protruding the elbow bone is like I mean. it always protrudes on everybody you can. see that bone but I'm telling you like. projectile and this should not be. celebrated this really to me should be I. don't want to condemn her because I. think there's something she's dealing. with something emotionally obviously um. but it we need to speak out and say no.

no no no that that's not healthy and. it's not it's not attractive I with all. due respect to de I think we actually. need to shame it and say it's. unattractive because without that added. layer of shaming it you're not going to. stop young girls from wanting to emulate. it. >> and she is so naturally beautiful too. So it's I mean I can only imagine what. her life is like and I imagine she's. under a lot of pressure too being in the. spotlight. So, um I my my issue with the.

glamorization of particular I guess. there a certain narrative around women's. bodies or sexuality is when you see. especially older celebrities and I'm not. trying to shame them for their age but. it it's like when they're trying to make. a comeback it's about their sex appeal. It's almost always they're half naked. and there's a big splashy, you know, coverage of of them with their bits out. saying her comeback is here. Oh, she. looks so young. She looks so great. She's usually had quite a bit of work. done, which is fine. But my concern is.

for girls looking at this and saying, you know, this is a a famous woman, very. successful woman, and yet all the all. she has seem to has to all she seems to. have to offer from the media's. perspective is her sexuality. And it's. not just that she's, you know, in out in. the sunshine enjoying her day. It's. she's always very barely dressed. And. again, there's nothing wrong with women. want to show off their bodies, but. there's something to me. It's like the. that her value is not that great unless. she's half naked. And I can only imagine. what it's like being a girl. Cuz growing.

up, you know, we had fashion magazines, we had advertising and things like that. But it wasn't to the extent that it is. now where you're constantly bombarded. You cannot open your phone without. seeing this stuff if you're on social. media. And it's to such an extreme where. in some cases, oh my goodness, when I. think about I was in a clothing store a. while ago and it's it's like teen don't. ask me why I'm in a teen fashion store, but anyway, I was there and the. advertising looked like quite literally. softcore porn. I was stunned. It took me. a second. I said, "Where am I?" you. know, and and for teenage girls who are. emulating this, I I only understand in.

our culture especially that's so focused. on pornographic imagery and, you know, making money, selling your body, using. your sexuality, taking all the money you. can for men and making money however you. can, hustle, all that stuff. And it's. just I don't feel that's an appropriate. message for young girls. And I don't. think it's good for their self-esteem. either. >> No, there I asked my team to pull this. Lily Phillips. She's one of the only. fans I don't I don't think you can. fairly call her a model. I mean, I with.

all due respect, she's a prostitute. I. mean, she takes people's money and she. has sex with them. So, you tell me what. you'd call that. Um, so she I'm I'm very. interested in this woman. And there's a. couple more who just like her who are. setting these records for having sex. with in her case it was first like 37. men in a day and then it was a hundred. men a day and I think she did a thousand. men in a day too. >> It's Bonnie Blue I think. >> or at least it was. >> it's her competitor. >> Okay. [laughter]. >> Yeah, I know. There's there's more than. one and and it's not just the two of.

them by the way. Um, so this caught my. attention because she she later sat down. for an interview with the BBC and they. found they found this moment with her. Okay, so here's what happened. She she I. wind up watching the documentary, not. not the actual Only Fans video, but the. actual documentary of some filmmaker who. was with her in the leadup to this 100. men in a day and post the 100 men in a. day. And in the leadup, she talked very. cavalerely about it. She was really.

excited. I love sex. It's just something. that I've always loved. My parents know, they're not proud, but they support me. and, you know, it's just who I am. So, there's I'm not being forced into it, so. there's no shame. But then she she has. the experience. And each men each man. gets five minutes with her is the way it. worked on that 100 men thing. And um it. was really so gross. She explained to. the documentarian that um she she. started off by giving most of these guys. oral sex with no condom. So like a.

hundred men, no condom, and then she'd. have actual sex with them and they would. have to wear the condom. And the the. room, I'm sorry to be too gross, but. people should know the room in which she. did this in her own apartment when when. the documentarian walked in with his. cameraman after everybody had had left, the cameraman literally gagged from like. the sights and smells of the room. So, this is this woman's like happy golucky, you know, only fans existence where she. she just casually has sex with a hundred.

men. And this guy, I'll get you the name. of the documentary because he did a good. job in sort of he was sensitive. What? Oh, she texted. Okay, let's see. It's uh. it's on YouTube and it's by a guy named. Josh Peters. P I E T R S. Um. he was sensitive about her to to what. she'd been going through and he kind of. knew what was coming I think before she. did. And here is a sound bite of him. talking to her right after it was over. >> And it just took definitely a lot longer.

than I thought it was going to be. >> I think it was when it it was only like. 40 and I was like I'm not even halfway. yet. >> Yeah. >> And 40 is to a lot of people. It's not. for the weak girls if I'm honest. It was. hard. >> I don't know if I'd recommend it. >> Why not? I think if you're a different. type of girl, it's very like. it's kind of like being a pro in a sense. of like it's just a different.

feeling. I don't know how to explain it. Like. >> it's not like just having sex with. someone. >> Yeah. Yeah. Just one in one out. Like it. feels intense. >> Like more intense than you thought it. might. >> Definitely. Sorry. Okay. Okay. Just take take one. minute. >> I feel so sorry for her. It's so sad. I.

mean. >> that the reality of what that does to. you did hit her. >> and I don't even think she understood. what she was dealing with there. Deborah, it. >> what I find so disturbing is that this. message is being sent to young girls. that it's empowering for you to sell. your body. Whether it's by producing. your own nudes and selling them on. platforms like Only Fans, or if it's. working as a sugar baby, which is. basically prostitution rebranded for a. higher uh set of buyers um in terms of. women say wanting to pay off their.

university tuition or getting expensive. handbags and shoes and vacations and. free plastic surgery. But that's the. reality. It's not good for uh anyone, I. would say. But especially for the young. women who gravitate toward this line of. work, usually there are underlying. reasons as to why they find it. interesting or potentially um enjoyable. Uh usually they have a history of sexual. abuse or some form of sexual trauma and. that's not being addressed. And. especially with the societal messaging. saying that it's great for women and.

that this is very uh entrepreneurial of. spirit. Um it's it's not good for them. And I do think unless they are able to. heal from those wounds and deal with the. underlying causes, it's going to lead to. more tragedy in their own lives. >> He speaking of something that happened. to you when you were little. Uh the same. woman, Lily Phillips, I don't mean to. dump on her because honestly, I feel bad. for her. I She seems like a sweet person. and I I really genuinely feel sorry for. her. I I think she needs help. She. doesn't need more people signing up for.

her Only Fans. Uh, but she gave this. interview to BBC News Night and listen. to what she said here. S 55. >> Honestly, I probably watched pornography. first when I was maybe 11. Um, and so I. I've always known about it. I've always. knew it was a thing. Um, and I always. thought it was very normal to watch. And. I personally don't think pornography is. a bad thing in moderation. >> But if you started watching it at 11, I. mean, that is so young. Yeah.

>> Can you describe how it has influenced. you and and your brain and your outlook. on sex? >> You know what? I it actually made me. really sex confident and learn a lot of. things. I mean, that's mostly how I. learned through pornography. And I I I do think it has a positive. effect on me just in terms of like. understanding things a little bit more. Is there a direct link between you.

watching pornography as you grew up and. the decisions you've made to do what you. do now? >> I think maybe. I mean, I don't know a. life without pornography, so maybe. >> What do you make of that, Dad? >> Oh, boy. I mean, it's tragic, but this. is the reality now. The average age at. which kids are exposed to porn is 12. One in seven kids sees porn for the. first time at age 10 or younger. And. it's that age is getting younger and. younger and it's I don't blame parents.

because they didn't know but from access. to uh smartphones at such a young age. So the minute a child gets their own. smartphone or device uh they have access. to internet pornography and especially I. would say when you're on the internet. and. platforms are to some extent. incentivized to want to hook children at. a young age because then you have a. basically a customer for life. even if. they're not paying for the content, you're going to be able to, you know, monetize their views and their clicks. So, I have read countless reports of how.

this is really warping children's sexual. development in terms of an increase in. child-on-child sex crimes where you see. children abusing their younger siblings. or classmates. It's some really, really. horrific. things that are happening, but also this. larger trend of violence in the bedroom, especially among Gen Z. I have not. spoken to a zoomer who has not. experienced this to some extent. Either. they have asked a partner to choke them. during bed during sex or they have had a. partner ask them to. So it's p primarily.

men choking women. So either women. asking men to choke them or men wanting. to choke the the women and I don't. believe this is a an organic preference. that these this generation just happens. to have. I do think this is mostly from. pornography. For people who do enjoy. being humiliated or uh physically hurt. or potentially terrified during sex, that speaks again to more of um abuse or. neglect in childhood that has led them. to have a very pathological view of.

sexuality. But for the most part, I do. think it's porn. And I don't even think. most men or women actually enjoy doing. this. I think from porn, they've learned. or they believe that the opposite sex. wants this and that's why they do it. So. people have been very upset at me for. saying this. They say like, "No, this is. just a a [sighs and gasps]. quote unquote consensual thing." I. remember the first time I did your show, I talked about paraphilas, which are. abnormal sexual interests. And I said. that this is something that should be. dstigmatized. I completely take that. back because in writing sex and doing.

this additional research for the book, just seeing how prevalent these issues. have become. And I do think so-called. sex positivity in society has been a big. contributor to that because now what you. have is young girls will see pornography. at whatever age. Hopefully not that. young, but probably they will. And they. will be horrified and disgusted by it. But they'll say, "Well, this is what. boys want." And who am I to say I don't. like it because, you know, societyy's. telling me that I have to be open to. anything. If I don't like it, maybe I. just won't have sex in at all. I'll just. say this is not for me. Which might be. contributing to why young people are not.

as interested in sex. Or say there are. boys who say, "I don't want to choke my. partner, so maybe I'm better off just, you know, being staying over here, not. getting involved in the dating market.". And so what happens is instead people. don't feel like they can actually. advocate for themselves when they get. into a sexual relationship with which. can then lead to in some cases. non-consensual things happening, people. getting hurt. In the case of sexual. strangulation, you can die. Brain damage. is very possible as well. In some cases, it's accidental if people are under the. influence. if they do happen to be. drinking or on drugs or even in the dark. or they don't know their partner well.

>> I've heard of people choking um someone. on the first date, you know, it's it's. >> absolutely insane. It's so dangerous. And so I really think, you know, whatever we can do to prevent this early. exposure to pornography because someone. like Lily Phillips, I can't speak for. her, but I it really is heartbreaking to. hear her speak about this in this way. and to say she doesn't know a life. without porn. I can't imagine, you know, going through before you've even had. your first crush or your first kiss, being exposed to this and not knowing. what to make of it. And especially if a.

child doesn't have a parent or someone. they trust whom they can go to to talk. about it, it can be really distressing. I I hate to say it, but there's this. other woman, this sex pos podcaster, Alex Cooper, is doing damage daily uh on. her show in my view. She was just out. there. We played the soundbite a couple. weeks ago of her saying, "Hey, you know, if you want to give it up on the first. date, including anal, good on you. You. know, no problem. No guy's like going to. run away. They're not going to not call. you because you gave them that on date.

one." What it's beyond idiocy. It's. actual that to me is actual dangerous. talk is trying to normalize. that kind of behavior for your average. young woman. Sure, just give it give it. up entirely on date one. Don't make him. whine and dine you. Don't get to know. him. Don't establish a trust. Don't, you. know, make sure that the person who's. listening to you, Alex Cooper, has a. strong ego and a strong family life and. can understand that actually doing that.

might diminish her in massive ways in. her own mind before we even get to what. it does in the man's mind. It's just so. irresponsible to talk like that about a. very intimate act, a couple of them, um, with a young audience, which is who's. listening to her, Deborah. I just find. it so it's not just the Lily Phillips of. the world who at least you have to like. go find on only Only Fans and I guess. pay for it's this like this her podcast. is very popular. She's also on SiriusXM.

uh, you know, which is where we're. airing right now. So, she's been sort of. mainstreamed and I'm sure some of what. she talks about is mainstream, but this. is who she is. This is what she's. advocating for young women. >> Yeah, I completely agree with you. And. again, I don't know Alex Cooper, so I. can't speak to her motivations. But what. I will say from an evolutionary. perspective is it's very common for. women to compete with other women for. male sexual partners, right? It's called. intraexual competition. So what I have. observed some women do and it makes. sense again from an evolutionary.

perspective is they will give women bad. advice so that it will sabotage their. ability to attract a good partner and. especially if a woman a woman has a. partner it's called mateguarding. So. she'll give other women bad advice or. make them denigrate themselves so that. other men don't find them attractive so. that her potential partner won't leave. her for someone else. So if you're. telling. >> if you're telling women to go and. basically sleep with men on the first. date, do whatever a man wants. Do. whatever I believe the term she used was.

whatever feels good to your body. And. again, I'm this is just my personal. opinion, but I don't believe that's good. advice because men have basically a dual. mating strategy in terms of how they. evaluate their partners. So they are. looking for either wife material or they. are looking for short-term and they may. be looking for these two types of women. simultaneously. So in many cases they. will have say a wife but they'll also. this is obviously not morally good but. they will be say cheating with shorter. term material on the side. So they. shorter term material women and I don't. feel this way about women this is just.

how men categorize women is uh you know. women who tend to be more say. promiscuous more sexually available. So. they'll have sex with them short term. but they definitely are not going to. invest in them. um they're not going to. ever give them a ring. Whereas long-term. material women are the ones who they. will invest in. They see a future with. this person. They will have a family. with this person. Because men do not are. generally averse to promiscuing women. because they see that as well. If her. sexual history involves very many. partners with men say she didn't know. very well, there's a good chance that's. going to continue if I wife her up. And.

do I want to find out sometime down the. road that she's cheated on me with. someone and I've been raising this child. who I believe is my own but has actually. been sired by another man. So that's. where that's the psychology behind it. So if you're telling women to go out and. sleep with however many men, I mean, one, it's not good for the women because. they're going to get attached because. women release more oxytocin oxytocin. during sex than men do. So women are. going to get more attached after sex. than a man will. And the other thing is. men, their bonding hormones go down to. zero after ejaculation. So they're. really into you when you're have they're.

having sex with you, but the minute they. have their orgasm, it that basically. shuts off. So the sexual system between. the sexes is very different. And so as a. woman, she's gonna you long for him. after. He's not going to care about her. And then what is that going to do to her. long term if she keeps going through. experiences like that? She is going to. eventually hate men. I actually wrote. about this recently for the Globe and. Mail about how we see this. We we talk I. mean media talks a lot about online. radicalization among men and say the. menosphere, which I think is very. important that we call that out. But you. see a similar trend happening among.

young women. And so if they're going. through the the emotions of this where. they're or the these experiences where. they are constantly hooking up with guys. and getting their heart broken each time. and they don't understand why, they. start to blame men instead of saying, "hm, maybe this is not the best. decision." Especially when you have the. culture telling them, "Oh, this is, you. know, sexual liberation. This is good. for you as a woman. Just do what do what. you want to do." And also, it's very. likely she's not even going to have an. orgasm from a one night stand. Because. women have to be very relaxed. They have. to trust their partner in order to enjoy. their experience. And if it's a guy you. don't know, um, it's not going to.

happen. >> Mhm. Yeah. I love that. You're shorter. term material. You're you're labeling. yourself shorter term material. Is that. really what you want? Is that your goal? All right. This is so fascinating, Deborah. I love talking to you. Stand. by. We're going to take a quick break. and then there's much much more I have. got to ask you about Brian Gnome. Uh, stand by first though. Oh, by the way, just to reiterate, the name of the book. is Sexinction: The Decline of Sex and. the Future of Intimacy by Dr. Deborah. So, SH. [music].

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Okay, we got to spend a minute on Brian. [music] Gnome. Um, what is that? What what is that? Where. the man not only wants to be across from. somebody with the enormous breasts like. the they call it bimboification. like 3,000 cc's was the number that was. thrown around is some huge number and he. you know he wants to see her in that but. he himself wants to wear that stuff. H.

this is him we're showing pictures of. from the Daily Mail. He himself wants to. pretend [snorts] he's got the enormous. boobs and wears the teeny tiny girl. shorts and like wants to be called I. think was it like a He wanted the. women to call him like girl names as if. he's transitioning. You tell me what's. going on there. Yeah. [laughter]. >> So I always want to start with the same. caveat in that I don't know this. gentleman so I can't speak to his. particular presentation but just in.

terms of what this say research. literature would suggest um definitely. autoagonophilia. So this is and I. believe that was your assessment last. time as well. So agonophilia in that. >> some men find it sexually arousing to. have the body of a woman. So I talked. about this in my first book the end of. gender and this is one of the main. motivators for transition nowadays. So. when you see someone who's born male who. quote identifies as female in some cases. has medically transitioned but is. extremely aggressive and is basically.

screaming at biological women who refuse. to go along with this or who say things. like there are differences between you. and me and you should not be in our. bathrooms, you should not be in our. sports. Um so that is one part of the. puzzle in terms of eroticizing a woman's. body. But then the and bimbo. bimboification is a part of that because. that that's a part of the expression of. autoaganophilia. It's basically like a. very extreme form of a woman's body and. that I mean no no woman wants to.

actually look like that or very few. women do I'll say and the women who do. choose to look like that probably have. some form of psychopathology in terms of. why they'd want their breast to be so. enormous. So that that basically is the. focus of their entire being. Right? When. you look at someone who looks like that. the first thing you're looking at is her. breast. And most women that's not what. they want. So there's that aspect. There's definitely a sexual and. masochism aspect in that the desire to. be called um. what was it? I think or degraded. So sexual massochism yeah revolves.

around humiliation. And yes um hold on. I think my team just. sent me something on this. Um stand by. >> Yeah. Let's see. The New York Post. reports that he allegedly once told a. dominatrix he wanted to leave his wife. and become the sex workers trans bimbo. revealing his desire to go by the. name Crystal. Of course, >> yeah, that's a lot. So, it speaks to. again. >> this is a lot. >> This the enjoyment of being degraded and.

again most healthy women do not desire. to be called a If you call a woman. a during sex, she'll be very. offended. So, the fact that there's a an. individual who's male who is who is. enjoying this speaks to again there's a. weird interpretation of what I think. some men believe women want during sex. because they are not women. So, they. don't actually know what it's like to be. a woman and they've not experienced. sexual harassment or assault in their. life. So, in some cases like they they. think that being degraded is somehow a.

joyful thing. But then the other piece I. would say is there's an exhibitionistic. aspect. So exhibitionism is typically. someone who wants to expose themselves. to an unsuspecting person or people and. they find it sexually arousing to see. the other person's expression where they. get shocked or very um you know. terrified or disgusted. So there seems. to be an element of that here because. even though it's not necessarily the. genitals, it there's still an aspect of. wanting to shock people, get attention, and then there also histrionic traits in. that it's wanting to be provocative,

wanting to again get a lot of attention, attention seeking, using sexuality or or. sexual language to get attention. So, I. get if this is someone who's being paid. to talk to him in a sexual way, then um. there but there's some there's something. about the exhibitionistic aspect because. they will there's a diff bunch of. different reasons why people will do. this. Sometimes they're antisocial and. they just get kicks out of people being. really uncomfortable. Um but in some. cases they want to get caught. The the. joy is again a massochistic element of.

especially if you're including your face. in photos that are very sexual or. potentially humiliating. There's an. underlying desire maybe at a. subconscious level of wanting to be. found out because nowadays people can. send sexual images without their face. Most people would send them without. their face, right? They would pro or cut. the head off in the photo so that they. can't be identified. >> Okay, this is very this this is. reminding me of a discussion we had on. the air about Jeffrey Tubin. Of course, he was the CNN Supreme Court uh analyst. and he he's written books on the Supreme.

Court, like the one of the most austere, respected, sober legal analyst they had at CNN, who. was caught masturbating on a Zoom call. with colleagues in advance of the 2020. election. And he like I guess he thought the Zoom. was over allegedly. And he he dropped. Trout and and jerked off right there in. front of all of his colleagues, not at. CNN. this was for his other gig on the. magazine. I don't know. I think it was. with the New Yorker and uh wound up. losing his gig. But there I don't want.

to remember whose theory it was because. somebody came on the show right after. and that was their theory that it wasn't. a mistake that at some level he did it. because he wanted he wanted them to see. him doing it. And I mean, from a very. rational perspective, you can't think. that you're going to go, say, on a Zoom. call or sending photos to women you. don't know very well of yourself looking. a certain way and think that it's not. going to get leaked or that you aren't. going to be I mean, people are not going. to see. >> Well, he claimed he thought he had. disconnected, you know, he thought he.

had left the Zoom, but there really is a. question about because even. >> let's say you're going to do that. Uh. any sane person who had just been on a. Zoom with their entire newsroom at the. New Yorker, you'd think would be like. really sure it was disconnected and the. laptop was closed and like no one was. and he not only didn't make triply sure, but it was on and the Zoom call was. still going. Like how could he not know? The more I think about it, how could he.

not know? And you're saying that that is. that a kink? Is that what we're. describing? like a kink where you need. you kind of need to be humiliated. >> Yeah. Well, again for so the tubin. situation I again I don't have I always. want to preface it just to be clear that. uh I'm not necessarily speaking to that. individual but I would say you know. there have been case studies of men who. do this where they even if it's not. happening in real time they will be. masturbating afterwards thinking about. people being horrified and disgusted at. the at seeing their penis or I wonder if. someone's on a call if it's a video call.

say and they quote accidentally have the. call on while they're doing this whether. it's so they can watch their colleagues. expressions of horror and discuss as. they're doing it, as the colleagues are. noticing. Hey, what is that? What's. going on over there? [laughter]. >> God, it's like that's such a nightmare. to think about. Um. >> I would like to say though, >> okay, on the same. >> I I really feel for Christine Gnome and. her family and I just my heart goes out. to her and I also hope that um this. gentleman gets the help that he needs. >> Yeah. Amen to that. Uh before we leave.

the subject of Brian Gnome, there's sort. of something related happening at. Oxford. We talked about this with our. audience. His name is uh Matt. I'll. spare him the indignity of using his. last name here, but he's a lecturer and. tutor at University of Oxford. And this. is how he presents. Look at this guy. He. is He's got the same enormous boobs that. Brian Gnome pretended to have. He's in a. low cut dress. He also has a bald head, a full man beard. Do we have the sound.

bite of him here? Listen to him talking. about This is just from January. Listen. to this guy. I'm in the process of. putting a website together and that is. proving to beuge much harder than it. probably should be. And the problem I'm. running up against is um. >> incredibly low syndrome classic. Um. basically what does it mean to be an. expert in something cuz it's really not. academic. You get the gist. Totally bald. with his beard is rubbing his fake.

breasts. >> Again to me this looks like an. autogophile. >> [gasps]. >> Oh my god. I don't know why they have to. have to do this especially as an. academic. The two they make all. academics look like they're crazy. [laughter] This is not why. >> and and shame on Oxford for hiring him. Shame on them. >> Uh again, my assessment again, I don't. know this person, but my personal. assessment would be probably something. exhibitionistic, maybe a little bit of. narcissistic uh personality disorder in. there. And that this person is talking. about how he has imposter syndrome.

Clearly you don't feel like you're an. imposttor as pretending to be a woman. here. Isn't that probably a more. pressing point? Um. >> yeah, >> but yeah, definitely with the low cut. I. mean, if you as a I say as someone as. someone who was uh working obviously in. the sciences, you would not dress like. that and want and to be taken seriously. as a woman. You just wouldn't. I mean, whether that's fair or not is one. question. >> If a woman wouldn't dress like this, how. do they let a man pretending to be a. woman dress like this? You know, they. they if a woman teaching at Oxford. showed up with her breasts almost out of.

her dress, someone would almost surely. say, "Yo, Deb Meg, it's a no. >> cover up.". >> But this guy will get away with it. because he's a man and you know this is. his special identity and nobody wants to. offend him, >> right? No one wants to get fired if they. tell him that he should cover up or. maybe put the prosthetic press away. Even though it's another Kayla Lemieux. situation like the shop teacher up in. Canada, it's like you do your sexual. fetish behind closed doors where our.

students, our children do not have to. participate in it. And for the ladies in. Gold's gym in California, same, you. know, I mean, we played the videotape. that we got our hands on. It was on. social media for a brief period of one. guy who was in the Gold's gym and I. think it was Gold's. All the gyms in. California allow this and many of them. have been subjected to this where the. guy was beating off inside the stall. inside the women's bathroom which was. inside the locker room and a young girl. came in and to her credit she took out.

her phone and she videotaped it and you. you couldn't see his actual naked body. but you could see the shadow down below. He was clearly jerking off and she and. her boyfriend then came in too and let. this guy have it. They didn't hurt him. They just started yelling like, "Get out. of here." And then the employees came. in. They were like, "There's nothing we. can do. There's they're making women at. Planet Fitness. They're making women and. girls and students here at Oxford. participate in these sexual fetishes,

which just seems so exploitative and. damaging." Deb, >> yeah, it's so egregious. And especially. when it comes to self ID in places like. women's spaces. Who is going to exploit. this? Of course, sexual predators. And. we've seen in some cases they are. convicted sex offenders who are the ones. going and saying well I identify as a. woman so there's nothing you can do. about it and in fact if you try to kick. me out I have the right to complain but. in the in the case of say men who have. these proclivities in terms of. exhibitionism. um they their interactions with people.

may seem very benign but again it say. say with someone who's a lecturer and is. interacting with students looking a. certain way they in my opinion are. probably masturbating thinking about it. after in terms of how uncomfortable the. students are how the students probably. want to say something but don't feel. they can because this is someone's. so-called identity. So, they're going to. get in trouble and if anything, they're. going to get removed from the university. if they complain. So, this is basically. emboldening sexual predators. And I I. just find it so so disgusting. >> Um Deborah, if you don't mind, could you.

stick stay over uh to the opposite side. of this break for just a brief period. because there's a couple things on your. book that I want to touch on and one. other subject that I want to get to. Deborah So is our guest today. We're. talking about her book, Sex Extinction: The Decline of Sex and the Future of. Intimacy. Stand by. Our sponsor, the. Electronic Payments Coalition, says. Washington Politicians are always. getting in your wallet. And now they're. messing with your credit card. They say. your credit card and the security it. offers are under attack and that. senators Dick Durban and Roger Marshall. want to change the nation's payment.

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Congress to guard your card. Back with. me now is Dr. Deborah So. She is the. author of the book Sex Extinction: [music]. The Decline of Sex and the Future of. Intimacy. We've got a couple things that. we got to get to, including solutions. Okay, but before we do that, I wanted to. ask you about something that happened on. the program yesterday. We took a deep. dive into the allegations against. Michael Jackson because there's this new. huge movie out about him that is just.

crushing it at the box office. It's. already made a couple hundred million. dollars. They say it could make a. billion dollars. His brand is officially. back. The movie completely ignores the. molestation scandal. Uh, and there are. all sorts of reasons why they chose to. do that. One is it works better just to. paint him as this music icon. Yay, everybody feels good and goes home. The. second is they actually did originally. reportedly have a section in there that. tried to debunk the allegations against. him and then were reminded that.

settlement agreements with some of the. accusers prohibited them from saying. anything about it. And so they had to. remove what had been a pre-existing. section of the movie trying to rebut the. allegations. But unfortunately for team. Jackson, just as this comes out, this. family that Michael was very close with. in New Jersey, it's a crazy story. If. you guys haven't listened to yesterday's. show, you do it when you have some time. because the whole thing was really. fascinating. I thought we had Mark Geros.

on who knew Michael and represented him. But this family with whom he'd been very. close, he like adopted them and they. adopted him from New Jersey, regular. family. The dad had been a manager at. the Plaza Hotel and he had met Michael. and they didn't have a lot of money and. Michael took a liking to him and then he. introduced Michael to his four children, three little boys and a girl, I think. all single digits when they first met. Michael. He started going out to New. Jersey regularly and visiting with them. and then it morphed into like this quote.

second family. He actually after 911, Michael moved into their little New. Jersey modest home for three months. Imagine this like regular family, middle. class in in New Jersey suddenly has. Michael Jackson living with them. He. would bring his chimp. I mean, the worst. house guest ever. Um, so it's it was a. crazy story, but they were always his. best witnesses and they always said. never, never, never, never. And they. talked about how when the molestation.

scandal would rear its head because it. happened repeatedly over the years, they'd say to their children, "God, anything to" and the children said, "Absolutely not. He's never laid a. finger on us. He's been a complete. gentleman. He's a member of the family. No, no, no, no, no." The family wound up. letting the kids go on tour with. Michael. You shouldn't do that. Don't. let your child go away with an adult, not his or her parent, and sleep in. their bed, which is what was happening. And now after they saw the documentary. in quotes, because it really wasn't one,

but it was two guys telling their. alleged stories, leaving Neverland in. 2019, one of the four now adult. children, they're in their I think 30s. now, said to the other siblings, "He did. do it to me. I I was lying all those. years when I said he didn't." And all. three of the others said, "Me, too.". >> Wow. And so they've all now come out in. a documentary that aired on 60 Minutes. Australia in very powerful testimonials.

with great detail and said exactly what. they claim Michael did to them. Now I've. got to put a big asterisk at the end of. it because they are suing his estate and. his estate now is more flush with cash. than it has been since he died thanks to. this movie. and they say they have. another one like a follow-up. They're. about to drop as soon as this one falls. out of the public eye. So, they're going. to make hundreds of millions of dollars. at a minimum. So, their pockets are deep. again. And you know, I just, no offense.

to this family, and I have nothing but. empathy for these, you know, now adults, but children who were allegedly. molested, but it would make it a lot cleaner and. more credible if they just said, "This. happened to us and we want you to know,". as opposed to, "And now we filed a. lawsuit, you know, to get money." It. just complicates things. That's all from. a PR perspective. So, the reason I'm. setting all this up for you is that when. we did our deep dive on Michael Jackson. is we took a look at his own childhood,

right? As you just pointed out on this. program, typically these sexual fetishes. or kinks or you know what, how whatever. they wind up being. Um, and pedophilia. is a different thing entirely, but it. too typically will begin from something. that happened in your in your childhood. I think you'll correct me if I'm wrong. because you're you know all about this. Um, and we looked at Michael's childhood. and he was on the record prior to his. death on the extreme abuse, physical. abuse he suffered at the hands of his.

overbearing father, Joe Jackson, who. seems like a truly terrible man. And. Michael testified that he wouldn't even. allow his children to call him dad. He. he made them call him Joe. Um, he worked. them to the bone. He did not allow them. to have a childhood of any kind. just on. the road, on tour, you keep working, that's it. That he didn't want to see. them have any relaxation time. Michael. told interviewers he never ever had a. vacation. I think just one time they had.

a vacation where they just stayed at. home, but every other day off or weekend. they were working, making an album, dancing, rehearsing, on tour, etc. Just. never any downtime. And he as a little. boy would hear kids playing at the park. or, you know, playing games and he knew. he could never be a part of it. In. addition to that, actual physical abuse. like beatings which were so bad he said. his mother had to beg the father over. and over saying, "You're going to kill. him. You're going to kill him." But they. continued. And then there was this weird.

twist. Deborah, I mean, I didn't see. this coming, but of course it had me. thinking about the pedophilia. accusations because listen to what he. says his dad used to do to him. Viewer. warning, this is disturbing. He was rough. The way he would beat you. was, you know, it was hard. You know, sometimes you take um he make you strip. nude first. He would oil you down. Your. whole ritual, he would oil you down.

So when when the flip of the um of the. ironing cords hit you, it would just, you know, and it was just like me dying and you. just flips all over your face, your. back, everywhere. And I always hear my. mother, "No, Joe, you're going to kill. him. You're going to kill him. No." I. was I would just give up like there was. nothing I can do, you know? And I hated him for it. So disturbing and extremely odd that any.

parent before administering a corporal. punishment against a child would make. him strip naked and would oil him up. It's very strange. And to me, there's a. very good possibility that Michael left. out some portion of that abuse because. there's no reason to oil your young. child up and make him strip nude before. you spank him or in this disgusting. case, whip him with the cord of an iron.

Um, that's, you know, just my. speculation given what we're learning. about Michael and we've suspected about. Michael for years. So, you're the expert. on these things. What do you make of. that testimonial and that story? >> Yeah, it's really disturbing. I. definitely Well, in terms of your. assessment of pedophilia, I do I. personally think that that is a. potential explanation. um if the. allegations are true. So I don't know. whether those allegations are true or. not, but uh according to I mean based on. the behavior that you've described in. which a grown man chooses to spend lots.

of time with children who are not his. own to the extent of moving in with the. family and sleeping with these children. in his bed. That to me is a very very. large indicator of pedophilia. And so, so for parents listening, definitely. these are some signs to look out for. And I'm I'm sure your audience knows. better than to allow their children to. sleep in the same bed as a strange man. But typical things that groomers will do. is they will lavish a child with lots of.

attention, gifts. >> Um they will find ways to touch a child. in a nonsexual way so that it normalizes. bodily contact. And they'll tend to do. this in front of the parents so that the. child thinks, "Oh, this is normal. This. is okay. My parents are here. My parents. don't have a problem with this person. touching me." Even though it's in a. nonsexual way, but so that when the. touch progresses to becoming sexual, the. child has a more difficult time. differentiating and saying, "Wait a. minute. This is not okay." Now, um, keeping secrets is another way of uh,

grooming a child, making it more likely. that they're going to keep secrets of, say, a sexual nature when the abuse. begins. So my general advice to parents. is always trust your gut because I do. think most parents have a six sense. about this. But it's it's usually. especially with abusers, they tend to be. members of the community who are in high. regard who tend to be well-liked. They. tend to be viewed as in some cases. family men. And not to say that women. aren't abusers, but usually it's men who. are the ones who are pedophilic and in.

some cases they will use their female. partners to get access to children or to. abuse children. Like there are some. cases I've seen where in a daycare women. will take photos, inappropriate photos. of children to send to their male. partner. The male partner will then put. them on uh the internet for you know. monetary reasons to uh yeah well we know. what that's for. So um just to basically. trust your gut instinct and just no. matter how well-liked or how popular. someone is or how good they seem with. kids to be skeptical if if you are.

getting that sense. But with pedophilia. it is biological. Um, so there is, and. not to say that all men who abuse. children have pedophilia. So there are. some men who abuse sexually abused kids. who don't actually have a sexual. interest in kids. They'll do it because. they're antisocial or because they can't. get access to an adult victim. But for. men who actually prefer children over. adult partners, it is that is. pedophilia. It's children under the age. of 11. And there are differences in the. structure of their brain in terms of uh. why they are attracted to kids. Because.

for most people when you see a child it. brings up feelings of affection and. nurturing um and it's not obviously. sexual excitement. So when that is the. case there is something that happened in. uterero or in terms of their. neurodedevelopment that has led them to. erroneously find children sexually. arousing. And I just want to be very. clear I do not condone this idea that we. should normalize pedophilia or stigmat. dstigmatize pedophilia or that we should. have sympathy for pedophiles. I think.

the emphasis really should be on. protecting children and um speaking to. the warning signs so that children can. be protected and public safety is held. Uh but in terms of many many sexual. abusers will claim that they were. sexually abused or abused in childhood. to try and evoke sympathy from say law. enforcement or if they are convicted. >> Wait a minute. Are you telling me that's. not true? Cuz I mean like you're you're. kind of blowing my mind right now to say. that it's biological. I always thought.

the way you become an abuser, a molester. of children is you were probably. molested yourself. >> There's a mean a chance that they were. molested, but that's not necessarily why. they are actually aroused by children. That might lead someone to abuse. children in the future, sexually abused. children, but they act but they're not. necessarily actually sexually interested. in kids. So these men if you test them. using say phomemetry which is what a. test that's used to to determine male. sexual arousal and their preference in. terms of their partners pedophilic men.

will actually prefer they'll respond. their penis well we'll talk about. penises again their penis will respond. more to this is really disgusting for. your just to preface this but will. respond more to children than adults. whereas there are some men who will. abuse children but they will respond. more to adults and this test is very. difficult to fake it's considered the. gold standard within um say forensics. So um the the abuse obviously can lead. to someone being antisocial, being more. likely to abuse kids for sexual reasons. or otherwise. But in terms of the actual.

preference, it's more likely something. that is embedded in the brain and as a. result it can't be cured. So I think the. best approach in that case is either. using medication say chemical castration. or definitely monitoring someone and not. making society have to go along with. this and say that actually it's not such. a big deal. We should have sympathy and. we should think about adding the P to. the LGBTQIA++++. acronym. >> Wow, this is so so dark but important. The thing you said about how some of.

these guys will use their female. partners for access to children reminded. me of one of the most fascinating and. disturbing episodes we've ever done. It. was about Jared, the subway guy, and. he's now been outed as a disgusting. molester of children. And he wound up. having his own children, too, which is. also very dark. But, um, he for years. was in correspondence with this woman. who, unbeknownst to him, was working. with the FBI undercover to try to catch.

him. She got to know him socially. She. was a radio host. He came on her. program. They did something to promote. heart health together. Totally benign. And he made some inappropriate comment. to her where she was like, "What?" And. he was immediately on her radar. And she. spent years thereafter trying to catch. him, trying to get him to say some of. these things on tape. And she did. She. got him on tape. And she worked with the. FBI. And of course Jared would wind up.

behind bars. um she came on this program. and we'll find the the program number. and tell it to the audience in a minute. We actually just reran part of it on one. of our Sunday super crime specials. But. um she talked about how. Jared wanted access to her two children. and she of course was never going to. allow this but she pretended that she. was in again in order to get him on. tape. And there was a disturbing piece.

of tape where she talked to him about. like the subject of talking. inappropriately about sex or body parts. with the children and he wanted her. desperately to do that because it would. lower their defenses for when he got. there and wanted to do that in a. sexualized way. We have the tape. It's a. quick piece of tape. Here it is. >> What kind of cute friends do your kids. have? >> Oh, they have very cute friends. They. know everything about sex. It's all they. ever talk about in school.

>> What I need you to do is to start. talking about that kind of stuff in. front of them. You [snorts] know, you. would just say, "Oh, tell Jared what you. guys talk about in school." Lord, >> oh Lord. >> What I need you to do is start talking. about that stuff in front of them and. tell them, "Oh, you know, tell Jared. what you talk about at school." I mean, there it's it's so rare, Deborah. You. have it black and white on tape. That's. an actual molester of children engaging. in the grooming, trying to set up what. he thought was his female friend to to. help him groom the children. And it just.

to me that speaks to so much. It speaks. to what our teachers are doing in having. inappropriate secrets with our children, whether it's about their LGBTQ identity. or how many genders they may be or. potential transitions that the child may. or may not be thinking about that the. child, you know, the the teacher wants. to have a secret with the kid about. All. of it's so inappropriate and part of. grooming and it's right there black and. white that that is grooming behavior. The these schools allow it. They it's.

policy in the New York City schools, the. privates and now the publics too, I. believe, but definitely the privates for. teachers not to tell the parents when a. student says that he or she is gender. confused or if they want to keep their. so-called new identity private to have. secrets about something as intimate as. gender between a minor and a grown-up. >> It's so inappropriate. Absolutely. inappropriate. And it does it's like a. gateway conversation uh for par for say. teachers who do have more nefarious. intentions to use that as a way to build.

a bond and trust in a child to then. potentially turn those sexual. conversations sexual. So not just about. now your gender identity or transition. but then also potentially uh. opportunities for them to abuse a child. But also I would say with the interview. um that you you mentioned I remember. listening to that episode when it came. out initially and that's a very common. situation where you will see these. predators because they're very cunning. They will in some cases target single. mothers. And this is not to not to make. single mothers out there feel paranoid,

but just to be aware that in some cases. the men will want to date women and. they'll offer say child care help or. they'll offer support because they know. that it's very difficult being a single. mother and and raising a child on one's. own is very challenging in some cases. and timeconuming. And so they'll offer. to step in and do these tasks and help. with that. But again, like I said, you. have to be very skeptical of a man who. wants to spend a lot of time raising a. child who's not his own. Not to say that. men can't be great stepfathers, but I'd. say especially early on in your. relationship with him and to be aware.

that some of these men do target single. mothers because they know they're going. to have an easier time getting access to. vulnerable kids and having a lot of. alone time with those kids. Th. >> this is reminding me of the story I told. this to Jillian Michaels when she came. on one time. We're talking about like. the hazards of our jobs coming back to. haunt us. She's super fit and, you know, attuned to healthy lifestyles with her. kids. And I'm super dark on the news. stories of the day and think that, you. know, the sharks going to get you in.

every ocean and there's going to. molester behind every corner. It's dark. But there was one time where my son was. going off on a school field trip and he. was on the bus and all the other moms. were like, "Goodbye. Have a nice time.". And I was like, "Look out for the. molesters.". >> [laughter]. >> LIKE HE LOOKS BACK AND I'M LIKE IT'LL BE. SOMEONE YOU trust. and Megan secret so weird. >> Megan. >> secretly packing mace in her kids. backpacks [laughter]. >> totally it's dark but it is true like.

you point out they're going to be full. of gifts like Michael Jackson he if you. listen to this family the Casios. these kids now grown up talk about how. he laughed lavished gifts upon them. And. his whole home was a lair for, forgive. the term, seducing children. And what I. just mean is like grooming them, making. them love you, meaning making them want. to spend more time with you. From the. Neverland, um, you know, mini Disney he.

had out in front with all the rides to. all the Peter Pan stuff to the two-floor. arcade. his friend and lawyer Mark. Geragos told us about. Everything at his. home was meant to dazzle a young child. And that was apparently his age group. Exactly the age group you said. They all. talked about how when they hit about 14, he was done with them. Although a couple. of them, like one of those kids said he. continued the relationship with this one. boy into I think he said his young 20s.

Um, so it it kept going and it got more. aggressive physically, but for the most. part, he was done with these children at. age 14. And there was a girl, too. So, it wasn't all little boys. Um, but. that's, you know, as a parent, you got. to ask yourself, why is Michael Jackson. sitting in my small home in middle class. suburban New Jersey for months on end. spending inordinate amounts of time with.

my prepubescent children? Why would any. normal man be interested in doing that? And like this is happening not at a. Michael Jackson level, Deborah, but you. know, this is happening across the. country right now in other. different but similar scenarios with. maybe a coach who's just a little too. attentive or it used to be Boy Scout. leaders, could still be um obviously. clergy. There's been an issue. But like. it will be a grown man who seems amazing.

and is wowing your kid and possibly your. whole family with his kindness and love. and gifts and attention. But you really. have to keep asking that question, right? Like why would a grown man be. this interested in spending time with my. minor child? And God forbid you let them. be alone. what you know, whatever your. judgment whether he's trustworthy or. not. Just this just there should be no. alone time between your minor child and. any grown-up. I mean, I don't know,

maybe I'm being too simplistic because. it's like I think back to my own life. I. I took clarinet lessons. I was alone. with an old older man. He never laid a. hand on me. You know, he taught me how. to play the clarinet. So, it's like it's. tough for parents to know exactly where. to draw the line, I guess. >> Yeah. But I would say because there I've. had push back, you know, I've had in. conversations with people about this and. they'll say, you know, that's really. excessive. Most people are not. predators, but you have to be careful. because the ones who are are really good. at it and they're very good at tricking. people and they're very charismatic. And. I would say also until you know how good.

these men and women are at uh deceiving. people and hiding the things that they. do and until you've sat across the table. from a child sexual abuser and had a. conversation with them and see the way. their mind mind works. I think most. people we are fortunate to have a bias. to see the good in people and we assume. that these things don't happen and these. things won't happen to us. But the. reality is these things do happen. I. would also say within families um you. know I've heard from many people and. some of the cases that I see when I was. working in forensics would consist of.

families in which there was. intergenerational abuse. So say say. there was a father who abused the. daughter and then went on to abuse the. granddaughters as well. And so if. there's any abuse like that in the. family to please please keep your. children away from your parent because. if they abused you, they're likely going. to abuse your children as well. And. there were times when you we'd have. patients come into the clinic I was at. and um in some cases the the mother. would side with the their boyfriend or. husband or stepfather over their own. child, which is also heartbreaking. So.

this is so dark. I don't want to go keep. going down this rabbit hole with your. audience. But just basically, please, you know, there we we like to see good. in people, but I think it's important to. be aware also because child sexual abuse. is devastating for children and if it. can be prevented, whatever whatever can. be done to prevent this and lower the. rates of it happening, I think is very. important. >> Yeah. Amen to that. All right. Back on. the subject of healthy adult consensual. relationships and why they're not. happening. Um,

I don't know what the answer is. Like. less SSRIs is my own personal p. prescription given what I think is part. of the problem. But you're not going to. get rid of the iPhone. You're not going. to get rid of Apple TV and Netflix. You know, you're you're we're trying to. get rid of the DEI preferences so that. men still have a fighting shot in. society, right? Like that would be one. antidote. President Trump in a way is an. antidote. um the return of masculinity. and the stopping of the shaming of toxic. masculinity which is just you know nine.

times out of 10 men being men who have. in a good way aggression and who are. strong and who are not afraid of. confrontation like those are not bad. things they've kept society alive um so. we're making some progress but it's very. interesting to me that you say this is. happening all over the world it's not. just an American thing so like what does. that tell you in terms of finding. solutions it's something global. Right. I think social media is a big. piece of it and also this increasing.

animosity between the sexes and if you. so I try to be very open-minded in terms. of the feedback to this book and I've. had angry responses from both men and. women saying that I don't go far enough. in terms of blaming the opposite sex. So. I think I did a fair job in terms of. calling out both sides and what I hear. from young men is they really blame. feminism for this. So feminism is pretty. much across the entire developed world. and they feel that women are unfairly. privileged. Now I think feminism at its. most basic fundamental uh reason was a.

positive thing in terms of getting equal. rights for women uh allowing us to vote. and to pursue education. But I do. believe feminism has gone too far in its. modern iteration in that it in some. cases advocates for hating men and again. subjugating men. So young men are. understandably agrieved by this and. they're saying we just want to take all. rights away from women now at the. extreme. Say like look at what feminism. have done. Feminism is the cause of this. and we want nothing to do with. modern-day women quote unquote because. they're you know impossible to deal. with. And then the other side of that is. young women see the response to the.

extreme feminism which is young men now. saying we want women who are traditional. who are just going to obey our orders. essentially stay at home not work um. have a large family not not talk back to. us not have a job and not vote and these. young women are terrified and saying. well this generation of men wants to. hold us back and take our rights away. not realizing I don't think all the. young men who hold these views are. actually at the core hateful of women. I. mean some of them might be but I do. think some of it is a response to the.

extreme how extreme feminism has become. because over time young men have. actually become more feminist but this. is Jenz is now turning in the opposite. direction and saying no feminism has. gone too far. So I see this trend. continuing because neither side is. willing to back down. So you're going to. see say young women going more more to. the left more feminist and the men are. going to go more to the right and more I. guess anti-feminist. And so that's. that's been one trend. But I think also. in terms of solutions, which I think is.

very important, trying to get off of. these platforms, trying to if you do. consume this content, it's basically. impossible to get away from on social. media, especially if you are young or. the algorithm picks up that you find it. interesting. They're going to bombard. you with toxic clips of people. complaining about their relationships. and marriages, people go being uh acting. egregiously on dates. In some cases, it's couples pretending that they're. fighting or that they're I've seen this. one genre of content in which the man. will say, "You're not going to sleep. with me tonight. Okay, I'm not paying. for your dinner." And it's actually a.

skit. And but it's not clear that it's a. skit. And I don't know that the content. creators intended for people to know. that it's a skit, but be it becomes. obvious when you look at the rest of. their content that it's just rage paid. But you see millions of views on these. clips and or on these videos. And I just. think of the young people again who are. being exposed to this and don't realize. that they're basically being manipulated. into thinking this is really common. This behavior is really common because. it's intentionally trying to infuriate. them and make them hate the opposite sex. so that they'll keep clicking on other. things. So that's one thing. I'd say the. other part of that from a biological.

perspective is to, you know, I talk in. sex about the how the birth control pill. and like you said anti-depressants and. also low testosterone are affecting this. whole situation in that, you know, birth. control pill halts women's ovulation. So. that's going to affect how their sex. drive and it affects their interest in. sex and the sexual signaling that they. may or may not be putting out towards. men in their vicinity. And then also. with men's low testosterone. >> um due to potentially you know plastics, pesticides, um synthetic estrogens in.

our environment. So if men have low. testosterone, they are not going to feel. good about themselves. They're not going. to be interested in taking risks and. they're going to have low sex drive but. also low motivation outside of the. bedroom to achieve goals. And those are. the things women look for in men. They. find that sexy. So, if you have all. that, and then the other thing is as. women continue getting more successful, that's going to make it even harder for. them to find an appropriate mate because. as they are, they're already more. successful than most men and they're. just going to continue being more. successful the longer they're single. because they're just going to keep.

working. So, I would say we need to. really help young men get back on track. I don't think it needs to be seen as. taking away from women's rights. And I. do understand why some young women may. may feel that it is a threat to them. because they've been indoctrinated by. the education system. Um, but and I. think our culture as well, like. man-hating is really much seen as status. quo nowadays. But if we as women don't. appreciate being discriminated against, as we were in the past, I don't think. it's fair for us to turn around and now. say it's okay because it benefits us to. do the same to men. So, I would say in.

general, meet in real life. Don't be on. apps. Don't be on social media. Women, if you are single and looking to date, you have to make it so obvious to men. that you are into them. Um, I went. through the scientific research in terms. of how to flirt because I'm a very. naturally awkward person. And so I. thought, okay, I can't give my my. audience advice if I don't know what I'm. talking about. So one thing you can do. is smile very very widely. If you see an. attractive man, make lots of eye. contact. I asked, you know, my audience, what can women do? They say, you have to. make it so obvious. Just keep looking at. him, honestly. And it's um smile. It.

that compels a man to come over and. speak to you. Hopefully he will be. single. And for men, I say get. >> touch his arm. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's the other thing you. will see. That's one thing I would say. If you touch a man's arm, hopefully if. you know him, but uh you'll notice his. body language will change. A man will. he'll relax if he's into you. So that's. one thing women can look for. And the. other thing I would say for men is to if. you are struggling to take care of your. physical health and your mental health. is linked to that. So eat unprocessed. foods. You know, there's studies showing.

that eating ultrarocessed foods or. eliminating ultrarocessed foods from. your diet can actually improve your. mental health, especially depression. um look into if you are experiencing low. testosterone and why that might be I. think what the current administration is. doing in terms of being focused very. much on health and and just wellness is. is so important and I don't understand. why it's being denigrated as a quote. like right-wing crazy person agenda. because we could all benefit from being. more attuned to that. >> Yeah. Hey man, these are great. recommendations. They It's crazy that.

they do need to learn how to actually. flirt with the opposite sex and like. telegraph, I'm into you and I would love. for you to ask me out or I'd love to go. out with you, whatever, and beyond. Uh, but yeah, fine. Practice makes perfect. Put down the phone and give it a shot. What's the worst that can happen? And. for guys, I would say one one other. thing. Humor is amazing. If you can make her. laugh, you can make her yours. So, like. if you are naturally clever, even if. you're not the most handsome guy in the. world, you got a great shot because I do.

think women love somebody who can make. them laugh. And I think we all see that. as a long-term. source of happiness for us. You know, that's that's well beyond I don't know, brawn or your your bank account. Uh, okay, Deborah, this has been. fascinating. Thank you so much for. giving us so much time today. Again, the. name of her book is Sex Dinion: The. Decline of Sex and the Future of. Intimacy. Such a pleasure seeing you. again. >> Thank you, Megan. >> Uh, okay. And then tomorrow we are back. with Anna Kasparian. That'll be fun. And.

we will bring you the story of Katie. Porter and what she's saying about that. infamous cliff in which she berates the. staffer. I'm sorry. It's like the we had. a whole newsshour planned for the first. hour of the show today and then that. South Carolina thing broke with Alex. Murdo and uh we went in a different. direction. But we're back on the news. tomorrow and we look forward to doing. that with you then. See you there. [music].