Ep 630 - Buildings (feat. Michael P. Murphy)

Wow. Wow. Wes. >> All right, we're here. Michael P. Murphy. What's going on, man? >> Hey, man. Great to be here, >> dude. It was uh you know, again, I'll be. honest. I I have a booking service. They. just go and and I'm pretty bad in terms. of like researching anything. They just. go like, "Hey, here's the book." I go, "Sounds great. [laughter] Sounds. awesome." The book is called Our Our. World in 10 Buildings. >> Yeah, that's right. 10 Buildings. >> So, you're and this guy I was doing a. little I did a little research. >> Okay. So I you have like an or you have. like an architectural origin story.

>> I do. It's a little bit this book is. about as well. >> It's pretty charged. You were saying. your father was sick. Yeah. >> You went to the hospital and you're. like, "Dude, this place Why does this. place look so [ __ ] horrible?". >> Yeah, [laughter] that's right. >> Is that Is that about it? Like. >> this is like those are the two parts. Yeah. I got two kind of awakenings I. had. >> Yeah. That's a bad way to frame it. I. shouldn't say that. You were just like. this doesn't look like a place to get. healthy in. It looks. >> No, it's true. I went, you know, like I. think a lot of people went to the. hospital as you everyone will go for. those like moments of great joy and your.

kids are born and terror when your. family's sick. And. >> yeah, >> I'm sitting around. It was uh it was. actually like the holidays, Christmas. >> and the whole family had to be there cuz. he was getting surgery. So place emptied. out. >> and uh there's like no one in there. except us. And he's like, "This is the. worst place I could imagine spending the. holidays." And I'm looking around. I was. a young architecture student. And I'm. looking around, I'm like, where is the. architect? Where are the design elements. in this place? This place is terrible. >> Yeah. >> You know, and so I think it kind of.

cracked my head open and said, you know, maybe one day I could design a hospital. or something like that. >> That's So you were already in. architecture. You were studying. architecture before that. >> I had been in architecture school for. one semester. >> Oh, so you're you [laughter] were pretty. new. >> I was pretty new. >> I didn't know a damn thing. >> Did you talk to anyone in there about. architecture during the thing or were. you just kind of just chilling? You. know, I was there was this moment where. they told him he had to walk around. >> He's like, "Oh, get your steps in." And. so they're walking around uh the hallway.

with no windows, rooms on either side. >> Mhm. >> Um the nursing station in the middle and. he was, you know, very very diligent. doing what the doctors told him. So he's. walking around and I'm just like, "This. is the most abysmal experience, you. know." Yeah. >> And yet it's this great. >> famous cancer institution in New York. City. >> Yeah. Yeah, that supposed to be one of. the greatest ones and is for research, but the experience was pretty bleak, you. know. >> Yeah, hospitals are either pretty. they're pretty brutal in there and it's. like I get it, you know, you're trying.

to you got to build all the cool. life-saving machines. You can't really. be thinking about nice windows and. natural light. So, your thing is like. you you can you can have both basically. >> Yeah. I think that the question I think. the question emerged like why is it why. is it that we can't have both? You know, it's interesting when you think about. hospitality spaces are designed. completely around your experience. >> Yeah. >> You know, what the comfort of the chair. is, what the smell of the room is, what. the light setting is. It's all around. making people feel like vibe and comfort.

and interest and. >> vibe of the hospital sucks. It's not a. good vibe. >> And hospitals, which they share the same. root word, >> true. >> are completely different, completely on. the other spectrum. It's all about the. kind of institution and it's sanitary. and cleanable spaces and you can. understand there's a lot of liability. around screwing it up. >> Yeah. >> Um. >> do you think that's from like I I would. imagine hospitals were invented for. soldiers initially. >> So I think it's probably just like. mercenary mindset where it's like that's.

they always were like give them the. worst possible [ __ ] We'll put their. legs back on and send them back out. I I. just think it's just everyone was like. yeah that's just what they look like and. no one ever even thought about it. It's. a very good Yeah, it's a very good. point. You know, the history of. hospitals like originally hospitals. actually were uh converted uh religious. spaces, you know. So, like before, let's. say the 18th century, they would just. put the sick in in the church in the. kind of large rooms and put beds in. there and you could hear, you know, the.

only healing power was the power of God, you know, the word the word of God. So. the priest stands at the front, delivers. the sermon and and you know that's your. pathway to to heaven. >> Really that was the first hospital. >> So those are the first medical spaces. are like really. >> uh converted you know uh religious. spaces basically. Okay. >> Uh they're taking in the sick and then. around let's say the turn of the 18th. century kind of modern hospital starts. to emerge as a place where the state is. putting the ill and the sick. Yeah.

Yeah, >> you know, in the 19th century, 1850s is. really when you see what we know today. as the modern hospital realm. >> Oh, they're pretty new. >> Kind of new. And you're right that like. it's this confluence of. >> uh military and and kind of state. investment. So I did this research. eventually to look into why was it so. bad, you know, why how can a place uh. provide like the best care and actually. actually potentially extend my father's. life actually provide really good care,

good research, good surgery and have. such a you know a poor experience in. terms of like the comfort level there. you know why are the two so. disconnected. So I looked into this. history. There's an interesting. historical. >> uh relationship where the Florence. Nightingale who from the 1850s. >> uh kind of emerged as like the first. medical medical hospital I don't want to. say medical hospital designer but she. really she built this thing. She wrote. this book called notes on hospitals and. notes on nursing.

>> Was she a nurse? >> She was a nurse. She sort of set up the. first kind of nursing. She's this. incredible innovator and um. >> I I always thought she was like a. character from like a Dickens novel. That's a real person. I mean, it's a. very real person. >> That's like the ultimate nurse name is. Florence Nightingale. My her name is. nurse Florence Nightingale. >> She's amazing. She went to the then it. was a Crimean War. >> and uh all these all these uh soldiers. were dying because they were in these. what's called bell tents and they were. dying of disease and. >> and she said we need to bring we need to.

uh she learned that uh through the. design of this new kind of military. hospital that was brought in. >> uh that patients were actually living. longer. they were being pulled off the. ground, that they weren't getting sick, that there was air flow in the facility, and she realized that the hospital had. this big impact on saving their life. And so she developed rules for how to. design hospitals and use those rules. that kind of changed hospital design. around the world. >> Dang. So do you ever hear about the guy. who discovered germs? Similar thing. The. guy who was like, "You should wash your. hands after you like like you know, package away a dead body and you have to.

deliver a child. You should wash your. hands." That guy was told he was like. other doctors were like, "Shut the [ __ ]. up, dude. There's nothing on our There's. not like invisible bugs on our hands. And that guy, I forget his name, but he. actually uh. >> he was the one who like pretty much. founded Germ Theory and he died in like. a sane asylum. >> because all the other doctors were like, "Shut up.". >> Oh, I didn't know that. >> We don't hear about that. They're like, "We're doctors. We're gentlemen. We're. clean. We can touch anything. It's not. going to make us dirty.". >> Yeah. There was this study where uh. similar to that where it [clears throat]. was doctor's ties that were getting.

germs on them and really infecting other. patients as they were walking through. different wards and so. >> what. >> so the so this whole idea of sanitary. clothing and other things you know. >> but those same ideas are really really. fascinating you know it was the sim idea. around. >> simise sorry that's the guy. >> oh yeah. >> that guy good guy. >> good guy. >> horrible horrible fate for him he just. tried to be like guys we should wash our. hands after touching dead bodies and. deliver we shouldn't deliver babies. right after and they're like shut up. >> Yeah. Yeah. All that stuff was changing.

how we think about uh not just what. medicine is, but how we live how we live. in the world, how the cities change. >> Yeah. >> Um. >> well, it is, you know, it's it's a it is. tricky because you're in the hospital. and it's like, yo, let's make this place. look awesome. And the doctors are like, they've been up for 35 hours straight. and they're like, shut up. >> They're pretty grumpy. Honestly, doctors. are pretty grumpy. You've worked with a lot of them, I. guess, designed stuff like hospital. >> I ended up working with a bunch of. amazing doctors. Yeah. >> Ate like crap, too. They have terrible.

diets for real. >> That's funny you say that. That is some. truth to it. >> It's 100% true. Doctors have the worst. diets out of anybody. Well, they're not. as bad as construction workers, but they. fall for health food fads a lot. >> They'll drink like 10 Coke Zeros and be. like, I'm completely healthy. >> Got to stay up. It's those shifts. Long. shifts. >> It's kind of [ __ ] Yeah. It's not It's. not good. >> Yeah. Yeah. So you. >> know I met this doctor right at that. same time and he was thinking about his. name is Paul Farmer. He was this. incredible doctor and he was trying to. build hospitals around the world for.

some of the poorest people. >> and basically saying this is terrible. We deserve better medical care but also. better spaces. >> Yeah. >> And he invited me to work with him uh. and actually ended up designing a. hospital with him and that's how I got. started my first project. >> Where was this at? >> The hospital's in Rwanda. >> Dang. >> In East Africa. Yeah. building that. resume. You got [laughter] start. They're like, "We need an architect who. works in Rwanda.". >> Yeah. >> Well, [laughter]. so I'll get back to that because that is.

kind of fascinating. How did you how did. you get into Harvard architectural. schools? You were an English you were an. English literature major. >> Yeah, I was. I was. >> How did how do you what how do you do. that? You join like some inter mural. sports or like how did you how did. [laughter] you polish your resume to get. up into. >> Yeah, I had I you know I I definitely. was not destined to be an architect. You. know what I mean? I I thought I wanted. to be a journalist, maybe a future. podcast, you know, but uh. >> this this this path is [laughter]. you gotta study hard. >> I wanted to I was trying to write a. book. Actually, this book I I often say.

is the thing I've been trying to do for. 30 years. So, I'm glad it's out. But, uh. >> that's cool. >> I uh I studied literature and I went and. worked in publishing like for a book. agent actually after school which. >> I did not love and then I went to try to. be a journalist. And so, uh, I I was. working abroad. Someone told me to to. get your to to to do that, you got to go. get get your get your articles, um, be a. stringer or something and go to some. foreign place. So, I went to South. Africa where I had.

>> had studied in school and went back. there. I knew some people there and I. was trying to. >> figure it out. And while I was there, >> uh, not being very successful, I would. say, uh, I got I called my father and my. mother on my father's birthday. >> How old were you? >> I was 20. I went there when I was 24. >> So you're a 24-year-old in South Africa. trying to be a journalist. >> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. >> Crazy. Stupid. Yeah. It's like terrible. >> Like why isn't this working [laughter]. down here in South Africa? I'm on the. beat right now. >> Yeah. Right. >> I know. Shouldn't I Shouldn't something.

great happen to me. [laughter]. >> That is pretty sick though. So you were. down Sorry. You were down there and what. what happened? >> I I clearly met with some great. adviserss who told me first study. English literature, one of the least. employable professions. [laughter] Uh, actually, it's funny, just as a segue, but you know, when I did eventually go. to architecture school in 2006, in 2008, the financial crisis happens. And. >> I was a realtor. >> Oh, you're a realtor. >> I was a 19-year-old realtor in. Philadelphia. [laughter]. So, yeah, I've suffered similar. setbacks. [laughter]. >> Well, there's this there's this article,

the New York Times comes out says, "Architects have finally replaced. English literature graduates as the. least employable profession." [laughter]. >> And then you switch to that. Well, I was. in architecture. >> Oh, [ __ ] You just switched. Oh, because. it was 2008. >> Yeah, 2008. Cuz AR all the every. architect was. >> We share a similar arc. I've I've Yeah. >> So, failing up, as they say. [laughter]. >> So, you switch. So, yeah. So, what was. how did you switch? I still don't. understand. You're you're an English. literature major and you were just like,

you know what? Oh, because you were down. there in South Africa. I was down there. trying to write and then I called my dad. and my dad uh didn't my mom answered the. phone and she said, "Uh, listen, your. dad's in the hospital. He's sick. He's. got they found cancer in his stomach. >> He had these he was feeling. uncomfortable. They opened him up and. they closed him up and they said, "Uh, >> she said, "Get home. You he has three. weeks to live.". >> Oh, god. >> And so we had that terrible call and uh. the next day I jumped on a plane. I came.

back home. It was winter. I'm from um. Pikipsy, New York. >> Chile. >> Chile. Little you know upstate north of. New York City. And uh I came home and I. you know what do you do in that. situation? >> Uh I was I had this whole plan bad plan. as you articulated. Uh that wasn't. working so well. So I kind of abandoned. that and I said well I'm just going to. sit here and figure out what to do with. the family. And. >> little backstory is my dad had always. worked on our family home. Every weekend. he was like tinkering. He was painting. He was like stripping stripping paint on.

repainting this old historic home that. they had bought for kind of a cheap deal. and tried to fix it themselves. >> Usually great for a marriage. >> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter]. >> Project. >> Exactly. Makes a woman happy. >> Why is dad on the ladder for seven hours. on a Saturday? You know, we always have. that question, you know, with his like. headphones. You got a little transistor. radio playing the, you know, Yankees. game or whatever. >> That's actually kind of nice. >> So, uh, but he was always trying to. finish it. never, you know, kind of a. job that never ends. And.

>> I said, "Well, what if I asked him, I. said, you know, I want to keep myself. busy. What if I try to finish what. you've been doing?" You know, he said it. was a good idea. So, >> you know, I started digging into the. house. I started, it was winter, so I. started working inside. There was this. old attic that had never been restored. I started working up there. >> So, three weeks pass, he's still alive. Six weeks, he's still alive. He's. responding to the drugs. He's still. going to work. Um, you know, a couple. months pass and he's like, "I'm going to. join you on this." So he comes home from. work every day. >> We're working on it together. Yeah. >> It's [clears throat] like this really.

restorative experience. >> A year and a half pass. He's still alive. and we finished restoring the house. >> That's awesome. >> It was amazing. And um I went outside. with him at the this one moment. You. know, he's always. >> at the end of the day always pour drink. I always had like a CC and Coke. I don't. know who drinks Canadian Club and Coke. for your listeners. You know, some old. rye. >> That was old school drink. And um. >> sipping the drink. We're standing. outside summertime and he goes, "Uh, working on the house with you saved my. life. It healed me." He said,

>> "That's really nice.". >> And so, uh, that was a powerful. experience, you know. I said like, "Is. that true? >> Could it have happened?" You know, but. in that moment, I was like, "Okay, I. think there's something bigger here. I. should be an architect. I should. actually go study this. Understand why.". That was the big moment for me. >> So, you gave up farting around with the. [laughter] literature. >> Picked up picked up some [ __ ] tools. like a man. You found your calling. >> I was grinding grinding it out on the. floor. Yeah. Uh. >> what and so what was what happened with.

the cancer? >> Yeah. So he uh you know he went through. remission. He had hair on his head. He. was feeling good. We finished the house. >> But stage four cancer. >> sure. >> is a [ __ ] Um it came back. >> into my first semester. I told the story. we were in the hospital together. So I. went then I went to art school then I'm. back in the hospital just with a little. knowledge. >> you know I went into I went to the. Harvard graduate school design and I get. you know overwhelmed with all the famous. architects how you be a famous architect. these are all the great people you.

should follow and all this starstudded. [snorts]. >> you know um attention and uh I'm go to. this hospital no one's talking about. hospitals in the school they're talking. about museums they're talking about. these things sure. >> and I'm like where are these guys in the. hospital. >> you know because my father's now. suffering again all these people are so. people the nurses are what they're. working in this terrible conditions and. like where is that brilliance that we. see in all these things I just studied. for the first semester and why aren't. they here so it was a kind of like a. real kind of whiplash experience to go.

from having this powerful experience of. my father where we kind of restored this. thing together and he became restored. and extended his life. >> and then to go to the place where he was. facing imminent death again and see the. lack of those thoughts Yeah. >> In that experience, I think it it really. shook me a little bit. You know, I talk. about it in the book uh at the end, but. six months later, he did eventually. >> Yeah, >> he did eventually die, but it was um not. to kill the ending of the book, but uh.

he was very intentional about that that. choice and he now had had these thoughts. and he said, "I'm going to choose where. to go." Yeah. >> So he like picked. >> uh he never you know this guy never left. Pikipsy New York basically. He went. abroad once to Barbados this country. where his friend his friend [laughter]. had a house invited him. He got a. passport once for one trip. >> I mean kind of the best place to go if. I'm being honest. >> Barbados is nice you know but you. Caribbean is nice but he hadn't traveled.

at all really. And he went down there. and he had this great experience there. and. >> he said I don't want to die in that. house. He didn't tell me all this. I. found this out later. So he went to his. friend's house in Barbados. He brought. his four best friend couple friends. >> and he um and he designed that end of. life experience to be very intentional, you know, and I chose his last room as I. say in the book that like end of life. being able to design that last. experience. >> Yeah. >> Uh where he was looking at the horizon.

where he was like in this beautiful. environment where he was calm and. uncomforted, his friends were around him. and he like went out. >> Yeah. just pretty. >> went out like a king. >> Yeah, pretty ideal honestly. [laughter]. >> And so I think all those things in my. first year of architecture school really. it just sh it just shook me you know say. like okay we're doing this something's. wrong in the way we're studying and. working. >> that makes sense. I was trying to figure. out how because it is kind of a it's a. you know it was kind of a bit of like an. oxymoron to be like we're bringing.

architecture to hospitals. You never. hear about it. It's like we're going to. you know there's some rich guy with a. ton of money. We're going to paint. frescos on a ceiling and give them. bigger, you know, you know what I mean? Like it's you r you you rarely hear. about your paint on the wall. >> My beautiful artwork. [laughter]. >> You you really never hear about it. And. I that actually does make sense of how. you kind of connected that to be like. let's. >> let's make this you know like your dad. had a nice experience. How do you make. that how do you make a hospital where. you know most people are just going to. sit in a hospital? How do you make that. at least somewhat give like a sliver of.

that experience to. >> you know? Yeah. I think it I think it it. it asked this question in myself which. is. >> why do we suffer through these. anesthetic experiences you know why do. we allow ourselves to be in conditions. which are so poorly designed and have no. say in what they are I mean we live our. lives 90% of our lives are inside of. buildings. >> yeah people are going to say because I. don't have any money that's why so my. house sucks. >> yeah but in a way in this book I didn't. want to say okay only great architecture.

this famous houses we. architectural record actually wanted to. say actually there's ways in which. >> like my dad did in his last room that we. in each of our apartments or house. everyone and listening you know you all. actually are designers of your home. you're changing things you're. >> buying furniture you're changing the. layout of things you're putting in. momentos of your family talismanic. things that are from your history or. memory and you're making them your own. you know and. >> and there's a real beauty to that. actually in the spaces that we're given.

we adapt them and design them and. accommodate them to what makes us feel. at ease and comfortable, you know. >> No, that is pretty cool. So then you So. is that how you kind of got into I guess. your focus in architecture? We're like, "All right, let's work on making play.". I I remember the first time I was in a. children's hospital. Children's. hospitals kind of do this to some. >> extent. That's a good point. Yeah. They're like, I walked in. I remember it. was like, you know, if you have kids, you've ever been to a children's. hospital, it's like. >> it's a it's it's a really gut-wrenching. experience. But then you're seeing like.

kids who are like really really sick and. you're like, "All right, let me stop. being a baby." Whatever. But I remember. like for real almost crying being like, "This is so nice.". >> Yeah. >> That they've put all of this thought. into like making these places. The. Philadelphia's Children's Hospital chop. is like. >> really really nice. the way they've set. it up and they you could tell they. really designed it in a way to make, >> you know, kids feel more comfortable and. not like they're in such a like a. serious scary place. >> Yeah. >> Um, >> no, it's a really good point in in a. children's hospital because no one's. going to a children's hospital for.

>> for great things. No, it's like bleak. >> We we our second kid when they when she. was just a little baby had um [gasps]. they thought she had menitis. She had. such a super high fever that they it. wasn't one of them's like bacterial. I. think it goes like to the brain. Yeah. >> But they like we just have to be sure. they had to give her like a spinal tap. and she was a tiny little thing and I'm. you know I'm like a wreck. But I. remember just really especially in. moments like that you're like. >> it's really nice we can all come. together you know and and actually. collectively design a place for.

everybody that you know because that is. it's just like a brutal you know. >> it's a brutal experience. Yeah. Yeah. and they're like at the bare minimum. I've been in these children's hospitals. and they're like, >> you know, they're putting like Snoopy. characters on the wall or something or. they have some play area or they're at. least trying to think about what the. kids experience is going to be. You. know, >> they had Gatorade in the waiting room. and I was like, "Guys, come here. It's. 11. It's really good." [laughter] I was. I was like, "This is so nice to have. this. >> Gatorade. Free Gatorade. >> It's cold Gatorade. It was awesome.". >> Yeah. No, I mean, I think that's a good.

point. It's how do you get into the. mindset of those who are experiencing. that? Yeah. >> Is that question? And in hospitals, we're often there's a lot of times where. we've lost that. We're like, "This thing. has to be a high performance machine, >> which is we're grateful that it's a high. performance machine and it's doing. incredible, >> you know, life-changing work." So, I. don't want to discount that. >> Yeah. >> But it's also a place where people work. every day. >> Yeah. >> You know, nurses are working there and. they're grinding it out and they're. doing hard hours and doctors are working. and they're trying to like muscle. through the hard work of this. And.

>> is that the kind of workplace that you'd. want to be in? you know, it's not it's. not Facebook's office offices, you know, it's not like uh there's not like, you. know, free lunch everywhere, you know, they're not thinking about that total. experience of of what it is to take care. of the workers and labor there as well. as the people that are in there all the. time. >> Yeah. There's no artistry basically in. the whole setup. >> So, some of that can change, you know, but I I think it's it is about. understanding the the confluence and. trying to say, you know, hospitals are. the places where we face great joy and. great fear. >> Yeah. >> And we got to take care of the people.

that are in that environment. So, how. have you So, going back to the Rwanda. thing, you're down there. That was like. your first project. >> I mean, it's a crazy story because, you. know, I'm in this I'm in this moment of. like existential crisis where I'm like, what am I studying this thing for? >> Yeah. >> And I'm not going to be one of these. architects. And my dad my dad's dying. I'm going home every weekend driving. back from Boston to Pikipsy trying to be. with him. >> Yeah. And I don't know if you've ever. been with someone at the end of their I. mean who's just musling through like.

every sports program he could watch, you. know, like he was watching golf, he's. watching football, he's just like the. whole day he's just watching TV. >> I I I was I was dispatched. One of my. dad's buddies had uh pancreatic cancer. and he was really just like wasting. away. And so my dad would like send us. over there like go because we would make. them like weed coconut oil like like. edible stuff. >> and he'd be like go over hang out man go. like hang out spend some time with the. guy and he I remember he would just sit. in his underwear and just watch. westerns. >> So I would just chill with him for like.

a couple hours every now and again just. watch. >> just sit there. >> just watch westerns with him. But he was. he was a pretty funny guy. >> man. I mean I remember just I wait for. the commercial break. >> and I try to get something potent in. there. >> Dad keep stay alive. I love you. Yeah. I. love [laughter] you dad. Okay, commercial's over, you know, like, you. know, pretty bleak, you know, >> see the robots on [laughter] like Fox. football Sunday. I was like, all right, let's be quiet. >> Yeah. So, I had a different experience. my first year. And then I met this. doctor, you know, this Dr. Paul Farmer. and he was like, look, we're building. hospitals in Haiti and in Rwanda and.

we're working with all these communities. and. >> who funds that? That's my that's the. question. How do you get the money to. like kind of do stuff like that? >> He was very interesting guy. his. organization, Partners in Health, is. incredible entity, you know, and he was. grinding it out, raising money from. philanthropists. He's he had a lot of. money from there was a lot of money. funding the programs from PEPAR, actually from. >> was that. >> which was the president's emergency plan. for AIDS relief. Oh, good. There you go. >> Pretty good, huh? >> That's actually impressive. [laughter].

>> Actually, George Bush put that together. It's one of one of his crowning. achievements. They funded all this money. into. >> AIDS uh treatment especially in in in. subsaharan Africa. >> but not just solely there and that had a. lot of money pumped into programs that. were radically reducing infection rates. and also helped some fund. infrastructure. So he was raising money. in different ways. Anyway, long story. short, he was partnered with the. government of Rwanda and they were. building after the they had had a.

genocide 10 years earlier. They were. investing in architecture and. infrastructure while the rest of the. world was paralyzed after the crisis. >> Oh yeah. >> And they were building hospitals and uh. he raised a little money to build a new. hospital. They asked him to build a new. hospital. >> He's like we got to do new we got to do. a new hospital. Would you ever come and. do this with us? >> What year were you in? >> This is 2007. I went to Rwanda to work. with him. And. >> what year were you in in terms of. studies? Like what was your. >> So I had one awesome year under my belt. [laughter].

That's pretty cool though. That's. awesome. You got to put a shoulder bag. on and. >> no experience. Yeah. No firm experience. >> and um but you know they had done it. before. You they had done stuff before. I was like look I have no experience. He. goes actually we want that. >> because. you know if you've done it a hundred. times now you're bringing all that. baggage. We actually have we've done it. before. We've done it in our way and we. need you to come in and assist us. So it. wasn't like I'm coming in as the. architect. It was I'm gonna come and. work with y'all. >> That's cool. Yeah. to like see if we can.

improve basically or just add to what. you're already doing. And so I moved, you know, I I left school after my. second year and uh and moved to Rwanda. to be with his team and try to work on. this new hospital called the Betaro. Hospital. Yeah. And uh. >> and that's where we tested all these. ideas where I learned about the history. of, you know, Florence Sanguel. It's. where I asked questions like why are why. are hospitals making people sicker. instead of healthier? >> So I got really into uh airflow. Yeah, I. saw I saw that from your TED talk. That.

was kind of cool. >> How can buildings breathe better? >> Basically, how to get re get the air. I. never even thought about that because I. I just assumed like in my house like. during winter time if I don't open a. window, I'm like this is just like old. air. >> Yeah, that's right. >> It is. You're It's a sustainable air. >> We learned this in uh during CO. >> Yeah, true. >> You know, it was about air flow. You. know, we're not getting enough air. management. You know, once we sealed all. of our, this is the other lesson I. learned. Once in the in 1950s where. basically everything became air.

conditioned, and there's lots of good. benefits to air conditioning, certainly. here in Austin where it's 100 degrees, we need some AC. >> I love AC, >> you know, but it also means that the air. inside. >> often is not recycled enough to. >> clean it, >> you know. >> Yeah. I never even thought so. It's so. in the hospital. you would think like a like a central. aerid house would have like a duct that. pulls air in from the outside just to. give you some fresh air. >> Yeah. It doesn't. Right. >> No, they do. I mean they have big. mechanical systems in hospitals. They. and it's for particularly sick patients,

>> they go in what's called a negative. pressure room where they're pulling air. out constantly, you know. So those folks. in a modern hospital who are have. tuberculosis or or COVID or a disease. which is. >> infecting the air they would be put into. let's say. >> uh a negative pressure room but in a. place like Rwanda they didn't have. negative pressure rooms you know so it's. the hallways patients were coming in. very sick and infecting other patients. and it's the medical space that was. contaminating those patients.

>> Oh yeah. And so we had to think really. kind of back to the origins of. architecture and say okay if we don't. have the money for big air conditioning. units or big mechanical systems can we. design the building so you get enough. natural ventilation that reduces the. overall infection rates radically. >> and that there was like a metric I. remember you saying like you can measure. how many times the air is completely. recycled in a building or basically like. fresh air coming in old air out. >> Yeah. They call it air changes per hour. Yeah. And you know, typically a normal.

room might get like two to three air. changes per hour, but in like a negative. pressure room, you're getting a few. more. And during COVID, you want to get. like eight air changes per hour, you. know, so. >> you're kind of like, it's the same thing. with TB, you know, you want to get a lot. more. >> Um, and so. >> we said, okay, >> I went back to Nightingale's strategies. and she had ideas about window placement. and size. uh she had ideas about how big. the floor plate or the kind of plan or. the room could be and all of those. things are this relationship which.

create air air management air flow and. if we introduce that back into this. modern hospital. >> in Rwanda could we actually reduce. infection rates and create not only a. comfortable space a beautiful space on. this hilltop that looks at this. incredible view. >> I will say the I I checked out your. portfolio I was trying to dig up at. least one stinker really nice dude I I. was like damn that it was the what was. it the Ma, not Masso. Uh, Amma. >> Amma. Yeah. >> Ama. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Stuff looked crazy, man. >> Oh, thanks, bro. >> Really? I I was I was just I was like,

there's got to be one in here. Like, what the hell is that? It I was like, damn, this [ __ ] is awesome. >> We don't put the uh stinkers on the on. the website. [laughter]. >> So, what was the tech level in the. hospital in Rwanda? You're talking like. you had just open windows where it was a. breeze just coming through, right? >> Pretty low tech, you know, but there's. simple simple metrics. size of windows, size of room, and then this is key, high. ceilings, what we call the upper room. >> Yeah. >> Where the air flows up. And then we. there's this great Kentucky.

outside Louisville called Big Ass Fans. You hear this group? >> It's awesome. Sounds that sounds. awesome. [laughter]. >> And we found them and they create these. huge ceiling fans. So, I wrote to Big. Ass Fans. I said, "Would you guys ever. think about donating, helping us put. these big ceiling fans in these open. wards?". >> Mh. Uh, and they were like on board. That's awesome. So, they we had these. big ass fans. >> Shout out to big [laughter] ass fans. >> Shout out to big ass fans. >> and uh it's hilarious, too, cuz we had. all these t-shirts, all these dudes, construction workers wearing big ass fan.

t-shirts. Like, no idea what this meant. It's hilarious. >> That's really funny. >> So, we had this big airflow kind of goes. slow, but because they're big, they get. a lot of airflow. >> We have one in the Austin airport that's. just like massive metal fan. >> I might be a big S fan. Actually, >> that might be a big S fan. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'll have to look when. I'm walking through there because it. gets air up, a lot of air up, but it. doesn't you don't have the speed that. creates a lot of. >> um let's say cools you down actually. So, it gets the room up. It gets the air. up into the upper room and then up there. we had UVGI lights, ultraviolet.

germicidal radiation lights, and it. cleans the air up there. >> Yeah. >> And then it moves out. So, just those. simple strategies actually uh created. enough air changes per hour that we. needed. >> Mhm. uh without having to bring in big. mechanical systems. >> That's awesome. >> And it kind of changed the way I think. about buildings. I I started to say, you. know, buildings have to breathe. >> Yeah. >> They allow us to breathe. >> You know, they're actually working with. us actually. So, our ability to breathe. clean air is predicated on the spaces.

we're in actually. >> and uh because we spend most of our. lives in these spaces and that's a. critical measure of our health and our. comfort and our ability to live, right? >> Yeah. And uh why is it that the. buildings are not why aren't we thinking. about buildings as this uh like a a. series of lungs or a filter of the. outside to the inside more than just the. spaces that we're in and we're forced to. >> Yeah. keep it cold and keep it cool and. all that stuff. >> Yeah. So that was interesting. >> That is pretty I I really do I think it.

goes back to just like you know medieval. peasant mentality where it's like all. right we're going to build if we build. stuff for the general population. it's just let's just build it be happy. you have it. It's it's not going to help. you in any It's not going to be good for. you, but just shut up and just deal with. it. Because that's I think that's why. like hospitals really do suck so bad. >> Some of that truth. Yeah. It's like the. bare minimum. >> Well, it's almost just unthinkable to be. like, let's let's make this nice because. everyone's like, "Shut up." Yeah. >> Be glad you have anything at all. We. could. >> And there's that inequality of space,

that kind of indignity of the. environments that we live in that we. don't deserve. >> Yeah. uh spaces that not just treat us. correctly or treat us well but also. inspire us or give us a sense of awe. I. mean I think you know if you go back to. the you know to the kind of medieval. period. >> you have a great distinction right you. have maybe terrible environments that. you live in in homes hvels or something. like that. >> Yeah. They like butcher animals and. throw them right outside. >> There you go. You have terrible spaces. which are not clean cleanly and maybe.

not inspiring. And then you go to the. cathedral. >> Yeah. And the cathedral is like one of. the most awinspiring things you've ever. seen. >> Yeah. >> And so they were using architecture and. its greatest ability to like inspire awe. to remind us that like you know there's. these greater powers that are above us. that you should be inspired by and that. give you kind of purpose. >> Uh so in a way every day the public is. is going in between the conditions of. the ordinary and the conditions of the.

inspiring. Yeah. At some moments in. their life. Like I'm sure each of us has. an architectural memory that they could. tell a story about. It's one of the. reasons I wrote this book. It's like you. know what is that moment where you said. >> oh that was a badass. >> experience I had or. >> you know not know for me was you. probably actually know this. The egg in. Albany. >> Oh yeah the egg. >> I performed in the egg and I I'll be. honest that that was awesome. >> Yeah. What was it about the egg that. >> just [ __ ] cool. I was in an egg. I. don't know. I was just I was I was in. like a circ a completely circular. building there. Dude, Josh, please pull.

up a picture of the egg in Alb. It was. uh. >> Yeah. >> Also, are you familiar with Albany? >> Yeah. >> Cuz then they have those like government. buildings. It looks like evil. >> Yeah. >> They have those like that's like. brutalist, I guess. They have those like. very like you you you like come over. whatever highway that whatever road that. is and you see this like. >> eggshaped building looming in the. distance. That thing that big concrete. satellite dish looking thing. But then. there's those buildings to the left. corner. >> Yeah. It almost looks like. >> they at night time they stick up and it. looks like like the evil empire out Star.

Wars. And honestly too, I don't I don't. think anyone Well, people probably know, but they're like federal buildings. >> Yeah. >> That I don't I couldn't really get an. answer from people like what what's. actually in them. They're like, I don't. know. >> Yeah. It's like state office buildings. and. >> Yeah. And the clearance you need like. >> not military clearance when you pull in. It's like very very restrictive like who. can go in there? You need all these. credentials. So yeah, that was the. picture right there, Josh. >> Memorable, right? >> Ah yeah, that one stuck with me. I just. remember pulling up like why did they do. this? It looks terrible. >> [laughter]. >> The egg was cool. The buildings behind.

it were like scary. Like literally scary. looking. >> Yeah. And they're so different than the. the the structures around them which are. these historic 19th century buildings. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That period of time in the in the. in the 60s with urban renewal dollars. was a big moment of like big heroic. visionary and kind of sometimes like. really missed the mark architecture. >> Yeah. Well, so do you are you uh Josh, can you pull up the guild house in. Philadelphia? Are you familiar with the. guild house? >> I show me the guild house. The guild. house. Yeah. I know the guild house. Yes, of course. The ugliest.

architecture. >> Ugliest. It's the ugliest building. And. this is what I didn't realize. >> that that was designed purposely. >> Someone made this place. I should pass. it every day. The guild house. >> It's actually kind of irritated me. Yeah, >> that it's on I don't know like Aan. Spring Garden somewhere. >> But that was designed by an architect, which I I get the idea was like let's. not like clash with the existing. neighborhood. Let's give it something. that like we kind of fit in. Yeah. But. it that was for basically lowincome. senior citizens. >> And he was like, "Let's just like.

purposely make this thing look almost. like kind of like run down.". >> And then he had a big satellite dish on. the top of it they had to remove. >> Yeah. >> Cuz that was like an insider joke like. these guys are just sitting there for. the rest of their life watching TV all. day in this shitty building and then. they took [clears throat] the satellite. dish off. >> Yeah. That was. >> That was also in the 60s as well. >> That was Robert Venturi. >> Yeah. What the hell was Robert Ventur. and Denise Scott Brown uh Philadelphia. architects. real. uh I actually write about them a little. bit in the book. You know, they. >> they really championed this what became.

postmodernism and using kind of signs. and symbols in architecture to signal a. kind of language so that you read. >> he actually defended the guild house as. as ugly architecture. You know that you. would read the ugly and it could be. ordinary and okay. >> I mean this guy's got to knock it off. I. mean just give them nice rooms and some. ceiling. like this these are lowincome. guys in Philadelphia trying to you know. finish their years out and you're. >> it's a very kind of populist thing but. it's also you know it's sort of there's. so many ventures Scott Brown structures.

that really miss the mark and are kind. of hideous architecture and they but. they're kind of obsessed with the. ordinary in a way like they they they. were obsessed with Las Vegas. >> they went to Las Vegas and created an. entire theory around. >> uh the buildings on the strip there were. just boxes with big signs. Okay. >> You know, and they were saying, you. know, there's something about this we. should think about as like a vernacular. American architecture where we care. about the sign, but we don't care about. what's behind the sign. I don't fully.

agree with that. >> I I don't even know what they're talking. about. I feel like the is that the old. strip in Vegas? >> The old strip. Yeah. >> Isn't that like the flamingo? They have. like pink billy. I don't even understand. that. It looks insane. When you go to. Vegas, it does not look ordinary. whatsoever. >> No. Now they Now it's emblematic, you. know, emblematic of like little mini. Venice or a little mini uh. >> Yeah. >> you know, New York City or whatever. >> Was the old strip that plane? What year. was this? >> This was the ' 60s. >> It was just a big neon sign. Oh, okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, what the hell? Okay. So, [laughter].

I still don't get what he's talking. about. >> I think what they were saying are cool. >> Yeah. that, you know, we're attracted to. the symbol and the sign and the eat here. and come in here, but once you get. inside, it can be like every other. building. Oh, >> okay. >> And um that's why. >> that we should focus on. >> the language if you want to use it or. the symbol that wraps the building and. not care so much about the experience. inside. And of course, I think flies in. the face of a lot of other architectural. theorists who would say like the things.

should be interrelated. >> Yeah. Um, but it was an interesting and. provocative theory which definitely. changed, you know, changed the way that. architects started to focus on what it. looks like from the outside. >> I mean, here's the thing, and I again, I. don't I've never studied architecture, but if I had a guess, if I was going, all right, what would I if I'm like a. 75year-old dude who's lived in Philly my. whole life, and now I'm in a low income. housing, just give the guy like a. slightly higher ceiling. [ __ ] this high. ceilings. This is nice. >> Totally. hitting them with the high. concepts. CR and especially being like.

it's shitty on purpose. >> Shitty on purpose. >> Come on, man. I I when I read that, I. was like, "What the fuck?". >> It's very patronizing. >> It is. It's very shitty. It's very It's. very mean to be like, "These guys, give. them something shitty. We'll put a big. satellite [laughter] dish on the top.". >> Yeah. I also felt like they never, you. know, I I I critique it a little bit in. the in the book, which is to say like, >> you know, there's also a reason why you. have these big signs in Vegas at the. time. It's because you're trying to. capture the most capital. You're trying. to get the people to buy what they have. You want the louder and louder sign. So.

there's a economic driver behind that. investment that has nothing to do with. >> the experience one has and the desire. one has to like be in a space for a long. period of time. >> Casinos are freaked out because it's. like they're purposely designed to be. disorienting but kind of just leave you. just like don't leave. You literally. can't figure out how to get out of. there. >> Yeah. They're labyrinth themed. >> Yeah. No clocks. >> pumping in air so you stay awake. Yeah. >> Oh, do they do that? >> Totally. >> Oh god. It's terrible. Terrible. Well, okay. So, >> okay. So, in architect school, this is.

this is one of my prepared questions. At. what point in architect school do they. teach you how to effectively blame. everything on the contractors? [laughter]. >> This is the is lesson number one. >> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter]. >> It is nice. It's a nice thing to be able. to do. >> Well, trust me, when you work with the. contractors, they're blaming everything. on the architect. >> I know. I know. It's It's literally vice. versa. >> It's like this. It is actually. constructed as this completely adverse. relationship from the beginning. You. have the big ideas and they're getting.

everything done. >> Well, they're looking at your blue. They're looking at the plans going, "This is [ __ ] You can't We made. some changes because this you can't even. do this. They don't know what it's. like." And I've I've seen it a million. times. >> Yeah. That's what was so interesting. about working in, you know, working in. Rwanda because they didn't have they. didn't we didn't have an architect per. se. I was I was working with the team, but they had a builder. This guy Bruce. Naz. >> and he had these shops where he was. making every piece of furniture, making. window details, making they were making. coffins for the hospital. I mean, making.

everything. >> had metal shop and wood shop and. >> and I was like, "Oh, this is amazing.". Like, you're actually working. interrelated with the builder. We're. going to build it together. We're going. to design it together. We're going to. test it together. >> Yeah. >> And so there was that that relationship, that adverse relationship never I didn't. learn through that, >> right? I learned how to like work. directly in relationship with those who. were going to make it because we could. make it right on site which is sort of. something you don't have access to here. where everything is imported. >> Yeah. >> You know and that was a really unique. experience. Yeah. >> That is kind of cool. >> But there is this moment where you say. okay architects have this position on.

high. >> and we create the great ideas and then. everyone else has to yeah. >> surrender to that. And I think that kind. of again patronizing position is. completely. uh it recreates the idea that only some. get access to architecture. >> and architects and that we all have to. live and suffer through these terrible. spaces in our lives instead of trying to. figure out how to how to solve and fix. the things that we. >> I was I was reading uh I've been reading. this guy's trying to read his book. It's. it's really hard to read but he uh.

uh it's called After Virtue. It's a like. a real dense philosophical book by. Alistair McIntyre and he was talking his. part of his thing was like we need to go. back to like engaging in practices for. the sake of the practice rather than the. external reward. >> which is like a nice thing to think. about and uh but then he was like. talking about like okay he had to define. what a practice was. So he was he's like. architecture is a practice and like what. about brick laying he's like not a. practice. >> He's like that's just part of that's. just a part of architecture. It was kind. of it was kind of a snobby take. He was. like there's nothing to be had.

internally by being a a good brick. layer. You're just a subset of the. practice of architecture. >> Oh yeah, I don't agree with that at all. >> Yeah, he caught a lot of flack for it. honestly. It's pretty. >> I think. >> kind of a snobby take. >> Yeah, it is. I think one of the things I. learned is it's act you know people ask. how do you define what a more beautiful. building is versus another and I say you. know if you can tell a story about the. building. >> if you can uh communicate like why it is. the way it is and often that can be. through how it's made. >> you so the craft of making. >> you know the building I' I've worked.

with these stonemasons who. >> you know we worked together on making. this really beautiful stone wall out of. this volcanic rock. >> very nice. >> in the you know in the ground and it's. like Oh, this is about they made every. single edge of every single rock. It was. handcrafted. >> Yeah. >> And I'm like, you can see the thousands. of hours and the lot all the handstone. cutting that was going on inside. And. you can see this incredible thing they. created which will stand the test of. time. >> And in that is the story for. generations. I made that stone wall. >> Yeah. >> Like my great great-grandfather was a.

stonemason from Ireland. Came up. >> to the Hudson Valley. That's why we were. there. came to build these estates. >> um that were made out of these like. river stones. You know, you had this. Irish stone, you know, mason. >> usually breathable stone, too. >> There you go. Breathable stone. >> Very breathable stones. Yeah. I I That's. the thing. It's It is a funny thing to. say because I think stonemasonry is. almost like a very It's It is kind of an. art. You have to like take the stone, know how to actually cut them and where. to place them and how to, you know, put. they're not like all the same color. It's not like a store. I mean, you see.

this in like especially in Japan where. there's such a reverence for the. tradition of craft of wood woodworking. and and masonry and everything and and. we've lost a lot of that. >> Yeah. But I think reverting to that. having that pride in what's made back to. my own experience working on my own home. like having to sand and work on every. piece of wood and. >> you know you get really intimate with. the material and and the making of a. room or a floor. >> and it reminds you that lots of hands. have touched this thing over time. Yeah,

>> lots of people have worked on this to. keep it alive and um there's a sort of. reverence. >> uh to being part of that long relay race. of people creating spaces that protect. us. >> That is nice, man. Especially I used to. I used to paint houses and I just. changing the color of a room would make. me so happy when I would finally finish. the last coat and look at it and be like. it's just it was such a joy. I'd be like. this is such a nice It was just a nice. feeling. >> Yeah. Having that kind of finished. thing, you can imagine it taking on new. life. Yeah.

>> Now, let me ask you this. That being. said, as an architect, do you ever find. yourself when meeting a contractor for. the first time genuinely wondering like. what hell hole did this illiterate freak. crawl [laughter] out of? You don't have to answer that. This is a. funny question. >> So, I mean, I I I actually have I mean, I [laughter] will say I have a lot of I. have a lot of reverence for people who. make things, you know, cuz it's it's not. they are it's not easy. It's it's one of. I would I would say uh because a lot of. my family did construction growing up.

and it's like. >> it's one of I swear to God it's one of. the hardest it's I think it's one of the. most fun jobs cuz you're different. places all the time. Like I really love. that part of it but then it's like. >> it's hard work. It it like kind of. destroys your body over time depending. on what you're doing. Um and then you. have to go collect you have to go chase. your money down. So like you're actually. working and then there's a whole other. part of the job where you have to go. like be like, "Hey, pay me for that. thing I did." And people are like, >> "Yeah, you're at risk.". >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And I, you know, I think what's. fascinating about being a builder or.

contractor is you can kind of see the. whole system. You take on all this risk. You're trying to budget a future thing. that may go over budget. You know, >> uh you're assembling all sorts of teams. of labor. >> Yeah. >> You know, you're trying to bring in. folks, people you trust, people you. don't know, and get this thing done on. you, you know, you're future proofing. I. hope it'll take this long. I hope the. weather will. >> Yeah. >> you know, allow me to do it. You're also. managing like like honestly if you like. when I would do construction a huge I. would not all but a a sizable portion of.

the workforce would be like ex-convicts. >> Sure. >> Not yet convict. You dealing with a. you're dealing with a [ __ ] pretty. >> you're you're organizing a pretty rough. version, you know, rough squad usually. And it's like it's you know it's it's. it's definitely a different beast. altogether. >> It's good work. Hard work. It is. Yeah. I always worked I worked mostly in food. service, but every weekend. >> same thing. It's the same exact thing. >> Every weekend grinding out like the. amount of ve amount of peppers I cut and. onions I cut, you know, prepping for.

this uh at this place I worked all. through high school, you know, it's like. >> I I get it like you know, but you at the. end of a day, >> you know, you crack a beer, you look at. what you did, you see the next day, and. you're really proud of it. And that kind. of is a really powerful thing. And when. the architect is I think put move. removed from that process and on a perch. >> you know build this vision I think it's. a complete disconnect. >> into like the world around us and why it. matters. It's the people that make it. that actually matter. >> Yeah. No I I agree it is you know so.

when so you gave the TED talk your TED. talk was like that was a huge TED talk. Am I is that. >> oh you know it. >> was a while ago. >> It was a while ago. We got we got you. know we it did well. >> But that you also gave TED a TED talk in. the golden age of TED talks. >> That was a good time. >> Yeah, that's what I was saying. I I used. to remember like if someone gave a TED. talk like you know what was that like 13. years ago maybe you did or. >> I did it Yeah. like in 15. So like 11. years ago. Yeah. >> That was the golden age. That was was. that before TEDex.

>> because they watered down the sauce a. little bit. I think it was like. simultaneous but it wasn't uh TEDex was. starting to happen then but I can't. don't quote me totally but it was like. it was there was some TEDex happening. like around then but there was you still. did a 13-minute talk where I think. they've now have like a six-minute talk. or something. >> Okay. What was it what was it like. giving a TED talk? I always wanted I. don't know anyone who's given one so I'm. always curious what that experience is. like. I mean, I kept. I always described it as like uh high. school theater, you know, it was like.

when I did plays in [laughter] high. school, you know, and you had to like. remember all the words and uh I was like. it was closest thing to theater or or. you know, >> so you had a little training so you were. able to do. >> Yeah. You know, I put the presentation. together. I'm working with this coach. >> uh Chief Pearlman. She's amazing. and uh. working through the story and she would. always you know architecture is we. always talk about buildings yada yada. yada like we just talked about the guild. hall and like you get a little high. flutin but she was always bringing back.

down a narrative. It was really. >> meaningful for me to say okay people are. going to respond to story of actually. what your dad got sick and this building. changed and we're like other people. that's that's what people care about. >> Yeah. And I hadn't seen architects. really describe buildings in a narrative. way that would like reach people. And so. working on it with her and then. memorizing it and then like you know I. was like doing jogs and like saying it. out loud and all this stuff like that. like freaking people out around me. I. remember I was like in the treadmill in. the basement of the hotel and like it's.

this crazy moment like in front of me is. because Ted attracted all these people, right? >> So uh in front of me is Al Gore on the. treadmill running, right? And next to me. is Chelsea Clinton [laughter] on the. track running. You know, I don't know if. they really want to see each other, but. there was a big mirror [laughter] where. you could sort of all see each other. And I'm like running between Chelsea. Clinton and Al Gore. speaking the TED talk out loud, you. know, freaking everybody out. >> What do they What did What do Gore and. Clinton? Do they even look at you or.

they just. >> Nope. And they didn't look at each other. either because I think it was, you know, they have a little history a little. history there. >> But that's the kind of that's that weird. ecosystem. >> Who was putting on harder work? Who was. putting in harder work on the treadmill? Was it? >> Good question. I don't, you know, Clinton or Gore. No, I think it was me. I was doing the hard. >> honestly. Yeah, you're [ __ ] crushing. [laughter]. >> I would have definitely pacematched. Clinton and Gore if I was between them. >> You're like seven, eight. >> incline. Yeah, incline. Oh, yeah. For. sure. You know [laughter] me. Eight 30. seconds back down to four. >> Yeah. So, I mean that was hard. That was. interesting, but it was uh I would say,

you know, after it was finished, I got a. lot of really interesting I mean great. feedback and people. >> people wrote to me these cold emails. that were like, I want to tell you the. story of my house that I worked on with. my dad or I want to tell you the story. of the school I went to that was like. really weird and why was it that way or. and I started getting all these like. everyday reflections on the architecture. and the buildings that mattered to. people. And I think it was from that TED. talk experience and the response that it. got for being about stories,

>> right, >> that I was like, I have to write a book. that actually gets people to tell their. stories, you know, that's why I wrote. this book, which was to say, let me tell. you about architecture in our world. Not. the architecture you should go to, not. the 10 buildings you should go to in. your lifetime and your bucket list. It's. not what this book is. This book is. like, >> why do hospitals matter? Why do houses. matter? >> Why do prisons matter? Yeah. Why does a. workplace matter? Like, how do we build. a language that we understand and. evaluate the spaces that we're foisted. into so that we can start reflecting.

back? And you send me those. I want to. hear those stories. I want to hear from. your readers, your listeners, like, hey. man, I had this crazy experience in this. building. It changed my life. Or I had. this terrible experience. It changed my. life. And that's where as an architect, you gain the most knowledge actually. >> Yeah. Yeah. I was I was just talking to. my friend before I came here about. cubicles and how like I think they're a. thing of the past now. I didn't realize. that. It's more now like the open floor. concept. >> Yeah. >> But the cubicles is like a pretty. dastardly design. >> I write about the cubicle in the book.

Do you really? >> Yeah. There's a book there's a chapter. on the workplace on our on I start with. the factory. >> Yeah. >> But then there was this guy at uh at. this furniture company named Herman. Miller, famous furniture company in. Michigan. This guy named Propes and he. designed the modern office cubicle. >> Did he really? >> Yeah. And it was like this vision of. like creating all these systems that. could be plug and played and grow and. evolve in the modern workplace. It's. kind of a visionary system idea. >> And later in his life, he complained, you know, he said, "Look, my big idea of.

this of the cubicle has been has been. destroyed.". >> What was his original idea? >> Well, it was that you could create like. a good enough workplace that could adapt. and change and evolve with the the needs. of the company. And. >> yeah, >> and there's some there's some beauty. into that. There's a there's a beauty. into creating this adaptable system. that's better than the average. >> Yeah. >> But what happened is of course it. created this kind of the office space. scenario, you know, the sort of benol. the horrible the sitting in a basement,

the living in a cubicle kind of. environment. And. >> and so you have both maybe the. aspiration of it and also the use of it. >> Well, that that was Adam Smith had a. quote about factories in general. He's. like, "Dude, if we can give everyone. just one mindless task all day, every. day, they'll fly off into these like. heightened flights of fancy and they'll. come up with like the next great thing.". And it was just like, "No, they kind of. just stare at the wall.". >> Stare at [laughter] the wall. >> That is funny when Yeah. I mean, it's a. cool idea and concept, but it's like, yeah, it's not not the case.

>> Yeah. Its use and it's when it was. deployed, you know, created a lot of. terrible conditions that people then. fought against, you know, but then the. open work plan is also not great either. people get into their headphones into. their Zoom calls and. >> and you're like. >> you almost want the walls and I thought. about that too. It's like I might want. to retreat to the walls of the cubicle. if you put me at a table with like four. people and. >> yeah there's like an imperfect you're. trying to figure out how to work well. together and also have heads down work. and that we haven't fully figured out. >> I mean the full Zoom office pl office. office work is not a great environment. We have no socialization.

>> Yeah. >> We have no way to be together in person. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's I've talked to. people who uh do kind of like more. office stuff and there's been a lot of. people after co they're like, I can't. wait to go back to the office. Like I. actually want to go back. It is. >> sounds cool to be like nice, I can chill. in my house and sweatpants, but then you. do that every day. And like I think. there is like the commute is there's a. soul crushing aspect of the commute, but. then there's also like shutting your. laptop and now you're just in your house. and you're like, "All right, >> yeah, >> just me again. >> Just me. [laughter] Still here. >> It's just me.".

>> Yeah. Still here. I'm good. We, my wife. and I, I call them freedom rides. We're. like, I'm gonna go to the I'm gonna go. to the grocery store and do a freedom. ride. >> Yeah. Just drive [laughter] back outside. the house, go buy some strawberries. >> With LinkedIn or not LinkedIn, with um. with TED, the TED talk, when you did. that, did you take like beta blockers or. did you just kind of raw dog it? >> I just I just did it. Yeah. >> Raw dogged it. Yeah. >> I get a lot a lot of people are talking. about beta blocker like you got to take. them. I'm like I don't know, man. I. don't. >> No, I've never No, I've never taken.

that. But I'm interested. Tell me why. Tell me why. >> They say like it's like the public. speaking kind of like it's like the cure. all. >> Oh, is that right? >> They say it doesn't allow your heart. rate to rise basically. So like you you. like they say you like can't actually. experience the physical symptoms of. anxiety. >> Again, I've never tried it. >> I should have taken a bunch today. >> True. It's true. Yeah. Three coffees. might not be enough. [laughter]. >> Like three coffees. Yeah. No, I didn't. do anything like that. >> But I did, you know, I did practice a. lot like theater, you know, so I felt. ready. But.

>> you're ready to go. I'll tell you, man. There was this uh there was one dude who. they called you step on the red circle. This one guy went out there, had a had a. talk to give and he just went blank. He. just went blank. >> And everyone in the crowd was just like, "Is this an act?" Then he sat down. Everyone stood up and clapped and they. stood up. He tried to do it again. Blank. It was. >> such a bomb. >> [ __ ]. >> Yes. It was hard to watch. >> That is tough. >> Yeah. >> I do like the guys who go like, "They. banned my TED talk. Here's my banned. I. I kind of like the renegade TED talkers.

Like they banned my [ __ ]. >> The So when you gave the TED talk, did. you get like flooded with like I guess. like DMs and stuff? What I'm trying to. ask is like what did the babe did the. babes respond to the TED [laughter]. talk? >> I mean, I got a lot of good respon. I. mean, it was mostly like people my mom's. age, you know, who were like, >> okay, here we go. [laughter] like, you know, I've got this, you know, my. son needs a job or like, you know, I've. got this house, you know, like we're.

working on my garage, you know, that. kind of thing. >> Nothing intriguing. >> Yeah. >> How so, do you jumping from TED talks? Do you like LinkedIn? I kind of said it. too early, but do you like LinkedIn like. what are your thoughts on LinkedIn? >> You know, I uh I don't I hadn't used a. lot of social media to be honest with. you, for like years. Uh but way kind of. went back on it uh recently as I was. doing some new work and you know. obviously it's a good way to connect but. also I'm trying to like you know stay.

keep my eyes off the phone man get off. like not be too consumed by I was. watching. >> you know like all of us like. >> tracking things and seeing people. respond and the like button and. >> well LinkedIn's weird because you get. like um you get endorsements so you you. say like these are my skills and then. your you know your friends or whoever. you're like yeah He's actually great at. strategic planning. >> Yeah. I haven't done any of that stuff. because a lot of the work that I'm. getting is from relationships. You know, people I meet or like, I have this crazy. idea. I want to build this weird thing. Like, how do I do that? You know?

>> Yeah. >> And so, instead of applying for jobs or. answering RFPs, I'm talking to folks to. be like, "How do I do this crazy. impossible project?" And try to work. with them and figure that out, you know? >> Yeah. I had a uh my LinkedIn profile. during I guess I had completely given up. on like a standard career path path. So. I had a shirtless pick on LinkedIn. >> Nice. >> It's kind of nice. Lot of. >> good responses. >> Yeah. And I had I had written my own. skill sets in and they were like kind of. graphic sexual hacks that I was trying. to get people to endorse. [laughter].

>> I think they might control for that now. Yeah. My LinkedIn was crazy. Uh. [clears throat] should be my next Should. I do that the next. >> bro? Go shirtless. You would be That's. the power That's for real. Shirtless. LinkedIn is a power move. Josh, can you. I I have a clip I want to show you. This. is an architectural question. Can you. pull that up? I I saw this guy on he was. talking about something specifically he. did with his house. I kind of want to. see your thoughts on this as an. architect. >> You bet. >> Let me see here. >> Is it? >> Also, while Josh gets that, I I noticed. on uh one of the one of the I guess.

organizations you're connected to, there's a thing called the Ellen. Degenerous Campus of Diane FSY Gorilla. Fund. >> It's a good name. It really rolls off. the tongue. >> What is that? Can you That sounds. completely unhinged. What is the What is. the Ellen Degenerous campus of divine. Diane Foy gorilla fund? >> Yeah. So this was uh [laughter]. is that a real thing? It's basically. Yeah, I worked on this. >> You worked on the Ellen Degenerous Dian. Gorilla Fund center of care and in. trouble. Yeah. No, it's the it's this.

the center for the study and care of. gorilla scientists in northern Rwanda. Basically like. >> where the remaining. mountain gorillas live are in this. incredible part of the country and. people go there from all over the world. to see the mountain gorillas and you. trek up and you. >> you know oh here we go in you go with. these gorillas you you track them. It's. an incredible experience. Um, and so. Diane FSY, which I saw Gorillas in the. Mist when you were growing up.

>> Oh, really? >> Did you ever see the movie? >> I didn't see it, but I know of it. >> So that's a movie about Diane FSY. Diane. FSY in the 60s moved to Rwanda. What. was, you know, then was also Rwanda. Sorry. Was still Rwanda. Yeah. And uh. studied the gorillas and brought a lot. of attention to them. And so her the and. she was killed up there by poachers. >> Dang. >> And so this foundation that was set up. in her honor continued for 50 years. And. then they reached out to to uh my team. uh to see if we could help build a new.

campus for them. >> That's pretty cool. >> And I started working on it with them. and and the first donor came in, >> Ellen Degenerous. >> Ellen Degenerous who cares about animals. and was like, I'll give the you know. lead gift uh actually her her wife. Porsche gave the lead gift in her honor. before Ellen knew. So it was sort of. this thing, but you know the naming. rights came with the project. >> That's pretty cool. So, but it's. >> Was this Was this prior to her getting. kind of skewered by the media for being. nasty to her staff? >> It was uh. >> that was what was one of the weaker. cancellations I saw. She was like,

"She's mean. >> Yeah. on her staff.". >> I've been on Ellen's side the whole. time. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, >> she owns a tight ship. >> Yeah. It was Yeah. And she success. >> [ __ ] donated to the gorilla fund, dude. People are on her ass. >> It was right at that same time. >> Was it really? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This was sort of her. exit plan, you know. She was sort of. leaving the show. She was putting some. into philanthropy. She was, you know, funding animal philanthropy and uh. >> also power move. I have a staff of cryb. babies. I'm like, "Yeah, I'm going to. give $40 million to the gorillas. Dude, shut up. [laughter]. I don't even care about you guys.".

>> Doing the gorilla fun. >> It's definitely an attempted. cancellation. Yeah, but she survived it, I think. And uh. >> I think she's fine. >> You know, she's doing all right. >> I thought it was weak. I thought being. you can't like the I don't know. I. thought that was such a reach to be. like, "Well, she's mean." It's like, "Okay, dude. You're getting into. meanness and bullying like boss boss. >> Yeah, we're all none of us stand a. chance. >> Yeah. Like you've never been mean. before. >> Bossy pants. Can you uh This is This is. the architectural question I had. I. actually had me thinking. >> Oh yeah. >> Starts to expand.

>> It does. >> And at one point you have a trap house. >> You the whole house and put 15 stoves in. the house. >> Absolutely. [laughter]. >> My vision was huge. >> I would love to see pictures of this by. the way. >> Yeah. Yeah. My my vision was huge. >> Okay. 15 stoves, four pots each, six. cookers, uh 11 people cooking at once. It was a. whole operation. >> It was a whole operation. >> Definitely an operation. Now, I know.

you're not an engineer, but. >> it sounds like a fire hazard. >> Is that even feasible? Oh, is that even possible to have cuz. I'm trying to figure out if he's. capping. Is that possible to have what do you. say? Six stoves. >> 15 stoves. >> 15 stoves. Excuse me. Is it possible to. even do that in terms of like pulling. the in a I would guess he was in St. Pete's, Florida in let's say either a. row home or a standalone h standalone. house. >> Is that what he was in? >> I think so. I mean, if if he was he was.

saying he was in an impoverished. neighborhood in St. Pete's, Florida, >> I don't think you could even put 16. stoves. >> I'm not trying to knock the man's trap, but it's like. >> I don't know. >> Is that possible? I mean, I guess. >> if you had to design a trap, how would. you how would you go about putting the. 16 stoves with 11 cookers? >> I do eight first. I do all I do 18. stoves. [laughter]. >> Yeah. >> So, you think it's feasible for him? I. mean, I guess in a standard house, >> you know, if you have a vision, >> you have a big huge vision. That's why I.

always say, you know, you can find a way. >> cuz people were trying to say he's. camping. >> So, I was like, I don't know. It sounds. kind of like cap, but I figured I' I'd. ask an expert. >> I'm glad you asked me. Yeah. Yeah. Do. you think he could act? Genuinely, do. you think he could have put. >> I just am worried about the fire hazard, but you know, if he's got Does he have. 16 hoods? You know, what's the deal? Does he have doubtful? >> What's his airflow strategy? >> Should be good. They're cooking crack. I. don't know if you put the context. They're cooking crack. So, the airflow. should be good. >> It should be very nice. [laughter]. >> I didn't know. You know, I always love.

to see a turned up white boy, but I. didn't know. [laughter]. >> I was like, this guy might be full of. [ __ ]. >> Yeah. Thank you for letting me know. >> Well, hey, so the book's great. Before. you go, we always have our premium. subscribers. They write in a question. Um, would you mind reading it and then. we could discuss the question? >> Sure. Totally. >> You know, it's it's just random. >> Is this my own trap? You read the Okay, >> we're talking about the trap. It's not a. trap. It's just it's [laughter] they. send us questions the producers select. just grab literally at random. [laughter]. >> This is the premium subscriber question.

I'm a 47year-old married sishat male. My. wife is 52 and [snorts] for the better. half of her life was a strict lesbian. gold star. Good question. We met. [laughter]. we met around the time she was going. through menopause. We were working. together at Price Warehouse Cooper, one. of the big four accounting firms. We. started on the same team as professional. equals. Mind you, we've been working. together for 5 years. And she first. struck me as being incredibly mask, which is fine for me. I have great.

respect for mask ladies, especially how. they grind in their workplace, but can. still have a good time. That's a nice. reflection. >> It is. Yeah, >> these guy. Yeah, I think that was. actually uh Joe from Minneapolis. I. forgot to put that in there. >> I've seen it time and time again. But a. few years into our professional. acquaintance, she underwent something of. a transformation from mask to mature. fem. Something I learned later was due. to a shift in her hormonal profile due. to menopause, which I of course. mentioned earlier. It was around this. time that I started developing feelings. for her, desiring to be more than just. professional teammates. And so I asked.

her to coffee. One thing led to another, and now we're married, my second, her. third, but obviously first with a man. I'm the only man she's ever been with, and she's always filled the role of the. more masculine leaning partner out of. all her lesbian relationships. This is. something we've This is a This is good. I get the architectural substance. [laughter] in this. >> Oh, it's random. It's random. It's. random. >> They don't know who the guest is going. to be. >> Of course. Yeah. [laughter] You want me. to finish this, >> please? >> Okay. Thank this is this is something.

we've dealt with in couples counseling. for almost a year. Getting something of. a resolution. Basically, I had to step. up and be more assertive, which I. learned how to do after taking several. online courses. I'm excited about the. like internet search that's going to. happen after this. Yeah. Long story. short, things were going really well. until just the other night, we were. arguing about which movie to watch when. all of a sudden, out of nowhere, my wife. struck me, a stiff backhand across the. side of my face. I just stood in shock, covering my cheek that was warm from the. slap. I cried. And then she cried.

That's very nice. We hugged as she. apologized profusely, telling me how. domestic violence is statistically. higher in the lesbian scene, highest. actually out of all other pairing types. Oh, interesting. Wonder where the data. is from. I guess my question is, do I. forgive her and move on or is this kind. of an assault unforgivable? >> That's the question. >> That's a good question. What do you think of that? [laughter]. >> Uh, I think it's unforgivable, man. I. mean, I would I would meet her where she. is, honestly. But I don't know.

>> I'm curious what kind of space they were. in. Were they on the couch? Like, was. the home toxic? Was it a toxic home? >> I don't know. I mean, I I don't know. They were in they were in counseling, so. >> yeah, >> seems like they had help, but. >> it's a good question. So I have to like. think about it. >> I mean they're they're you know they're. up there in terms of professionals. They're they're 50 50 40 something. >> Oh is his third her fourth. Is that what. it was? Her fourth. >> the marriage. >> I don't know. Second third. >> Second third. Yeah. >> So that I actually have heard that it is. statistically higher in the lesbian.

Domestic violence is the highest in. terms in lesbian community. >> Is that right? >> That's what I've heard. >> That I don't know. >> I don't know either, but I've heard. [laughter] that. We could we could. verify that. >> Thanks for letting me read that. I I'm back to the theater of the TED. talk, you know, [laughter]. giving a script. >> True. >> So, no, no advice for him. >> I mean, I think, you know, you should. follow his heart as he has. >> I say forgive honestly. >> You know, I say. >> we all get into difficult positions. >> True. I say forgive. >> It's actually bisexual women is what AI.

says. Have the highest. >> AI knows. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Well, sorry to end on a sour note. I. >> No, I mean. >> I just have to They're the premium. subscribers. They get to submit. questions. >> Yeah, I'm sure. I'm happy to I'm happy. to give them advice. You know, hopefully. they're listening. >> Maybe, you know, maybe what they should. do, they should think about the kind of. setting of their house, you know. >> True. >> Maybe they they need a new couch or. something. Maybe they need 15 stoves or. something like that. >> They set up the trap house. [laughter]. >> Well, hey, thank you so much. That was a.

blast. >> Hey, thank you. Thank you. >> And one more time, the book, Our World. in 10 Buildings. >> Yeah, the book's Our World in 10. Buildings. It's uh how architecture. defines who we are and how we live. And. I hope you pick it up. It's about. everyday spaces. It's not about the 10. buildings you want to visit. It's about. uh how the spaces around you might. improve our lives a little bit better, a. little bit more. And uh I hope you like. it. And thank you for having me on the. show. It was a great talk. >> Thank you. >> Watch new episodes of Matt and Shane. Secret podcast on Spotify. >> Do it.