Ep 622 - Am-I.Film (feat. Milo Reed)

Wow. Wow. Wes. >> And all right, we're here. Milo, what. the [ __ ] up, dude? >> What's up, man? >> We've met under possibly the strangest. circumstances of all time. [laughter]. Um, just to give backstory, you're a. filmmaker. Milo filmmaker as of now. New. new filmmaker. >> I I'm sitting there. I I remember I'm. walking my dogs outside. My dog was. [ __ ] I get a message from Kim Cond. and she goes, "Hey, why?" She's like, "What the [ __ ] is this?" And it was just. I on a billboard downtown Austin and it.

just says is AI conscious or it just had. my face and I had you photoshopped a. suit and tie on me. >> Yeah, >> dude. We were just talking a massive. billboard in the absolute heart of. downtown Austin. I thought I was being. tricked by AI. I'm like. >> you thought this was an AI scop or some. [ __ ]. >> I thought someone was using AI like. making a photo and was tricking people. >> Oh, I got you. I got. >> So I was like and here's the thing. I. don't know if you know this about me. I. lust for billboard exposure. >> No, I didn't know this.

>> I for I've talked about just getting a. billboard for no reason and just putting. my face on it when I used to live in. Philadelphia. I Yeah, there's the. billboard. There's the [laughter]. billboard. >> Oh god, it's beautiful. >> I've talked about this for years. I was. like, I just want to get a billboard one. day, put my face on it, and but it's. just advertises nothing. And people were. like, what the [ __ ] is that? And just I. thought it was funny, >> dude. Just to freak people out. You. literally [laughter] made my dream come. true. I mean, the marketing, I've never. seen better marketing. I was laughing. with Gardini. I'm like, dude, I mean, there's something about the marketing I.

just love. It's just my face, >> dude. That [laughter] that [ __ ] came. out of me being so pissed off at. marketing agencies. So, like, we were. broke the entire time we were making. this movie. >> Explain the movie so people. >> Okay. So, so the movie is like this. documentary. It's called Am I? Like a. question um about AI consciousness and. it's about my buddy like one of my close. friends from college who happens to be. one of the leading AI consciousness. researchers in the world. So, I pretty. much spent the last year just like. figuring out what the [ __ ] that was, what that meant to like study AI. consciousness, whether AI could be.

conscious, all this stuff. And so, like. dove into those murky waters. Uh, but at. the end of this, like when we were going. through the the edit, uh, we finally got. some cash from this, shout out Daniel. Brockman, the skits out dude from from. Thailand, like cracked out, wears cat. ears, like just chugging coronas all. day. He's the man. Like the man, >> obviously. and he just he sent us some. money cuz he liked this podcast that we. were doing and uh and so I was like. beautiful like we can finally this came. at the perfect time we can like figure. out how to market this thing cuz we had. to we were just going to put it out on.

YouTube like we didn't want to go. through the whole festival thing that. would have taken a year all that stuff. >> and so he sends us this cash and I start. talking to these marketing agencies and. they're like yo you're [ __ ] bro like. you have no money like call us back when. you have 50k we can't do anything for. you like we can send out some emails and. stuff but like yeah. >> um. >> and so I got like depressed for a week. and I was like [ __ ] we have not like we. can't do anything. I was just listening. to that. >> So you did the you did the podcast first. and then once he gave you money did the. dock or you already had the doc? >> No. So we already had the dock. The. podcast we did because my buddy Cam was.

like we can't wait a year to start. talking about this stuff. So like most. people AI consciousness like they've. never even heard of it before. He's so. deep in this world. He's like this is. about to blow up in whatever a year, two. years. If we don't start talking about. this now like it's going to pass us by. all the sort of like battle lines are. going to be drawn and it's going to be. old news. >> And so the compromise was like, let's do. a podcast first where we can start. talking about this stuff while we film. the dock. >> So when we got to this stage, we had the. dock. It was already ready to go. We. just fig we just needed to like figure.

out how to actually get it out there and. make sure it didn't just disappear into. the YouTube void. >> Yeah. >> And so these guys told me they were. like, "Yeah, you're pretty much fucked.". And my brother and I were just like. finishing up the end of the score and it. was like [ __ ] 6:00 a.m. and we were. just completely like dog [ __ ] tired. And. I turned to him and I was like, "Bro, what if we just spent all this money on. a billboard?". And [ __ ] that's the billboard. [laughter]. >> And now I'm here. >> Yes. Yes. It [ __ ] work. >> I couldn't deny it. I [laughter]. honestly And again, obviously you're. you're just you've just, you know,

you're applying to my major weakness. just my own ego. So I'm like, >> "Dude, but you know that photo you know. the photo that was up there? Like do you. recognize that photo?". >> Yeah, that was that was I used to use as. my head shot. That was my [ __ ] uh my. tank top head shot. >> The tank top. But see, we got we got. talked out of the tank top because we at. the first one we did so many iterations. We did it without the face, too. And. then we're like, "No, like the face is. the knockout punch. We can't do it. We. can't do it without the face." And so we. had it with the blue tank top at first. And we started showing it to people and. they were like, "Yo, like you cannot put.

this man's face up there with like a. tiny skimpy like blue tank top in front. of all of Austin.". >> I used it for my head shot forever. >> That's what I imagined. I thought the. tank top but but I do like the class. I. like the class of the suit. Nice. I was. like kind of sick photoshop. Yeah. >> Yeah. It looks nice, right? [laughter]. >> That was a whole deal, man. Like, >> so you proposed this to your brother. Was you like, what was it? >> No. He was like, "Let's [ __ ] go. >> Let's rip it." Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz we both I mean, we've been listening to the pod for like. years, both of us. And we were like, "Yo, if this even if like this doc.

flops, if the if the only thing that. comes out of this is like we took out a. [ __ ] billboard with Matt's face on. [laughter] it, it's like win. The last. year's a [ __ ] win." And now it's. like, dude, >> you're just basking in glory now at this. point. >> I It was just too strong. First of all, I love just an insane move. So, I saw. that. I'm like, that's [ __ ] nuts. And. I was just laughing so hard cuz I kept. getting texts like, "What is this? Are. you doing it?" I'm like, "No, I don't. know what it is." And uh and I was. laughing being like like people like,

"Dude, you can you're not allowed to do. that. You can sue that guy." And I was. just laughing like that'd be so funny if. I just sued the [ __ ] pants off this. dude who took out even though I was. tickled to see the billboard. >> Dude, that I mean it gets deep. Like why. can you sue someone? I guess well yeah. it's your face. >> Yeah. And this I don't know. We're going. to have to check the legality on this. but like I did have to like forge a. [ __ ] DM from you. So I [laughter]. went like deep like Mission Impossible. [ __ ]. >> I kind of respect it though. I I do I. respect a just wild move. I we had to do.

it at that point because I was like I'm. not gonna spend all this money on. [ __ ] like meta ads [laughter] like no. chance. And once we had the idea, it's. like we're gonna stop at nothing to make. sure that this happens. And so at the. very end we had it where it was just. text and then they were like and then we. we tried to pull the like switcheroo. last minute switcheroo and just threw. the [ __ ] face up there and they were. like, "Yo, you can't like do you have. this guy's permission?" And so I just. like quickly put together a little. Instagram DM of you being like, "Yeah, lol. Sure." [laughter]. That's such a sick response. Obviously,

I would have been like, "Go for it. I. don't give a fuck." But. >> we just wanted the magic of it just like. popping up in your world. I'm so happy. >> It was the strangest, dude. It was just. like, and it's just so funny that I've. had this weird fascination with. billboards. So, I was like, "Somebody's. [ __ ] There's no way, >> dude. The universe. The universe made it. happen. >> I think so." And I kept getting all. these texts like, "Bro, what the [ __ ]. What is this? What? Why?" And like my. neighbors would be like, "Why is your. [ __ ] face on it?" I'm like, "I don't. know." Dude, you know the funniest thing. about this too is the it was we paid for. one month and like the billboard company.

hit me up a week before it was supposed. to come down and they were like, "Hey, we don't have another tenant just there. still.". >> So it's just like, "Do you want us to. [laughter] leave it up?" And I was like, "Yeah, please sure.". >> So it's so I went and checked it out in. person for the first time. Like it's. glorious, man. >> Dude, if they the placements, yeah, whatever. Anyway, but. >> also all the bird [ __ ] missed your face. There's some like divine intervention. God. [laughter]. Yeah. It would be brutal if he just had. like a [ __ ] middle for it. >> So that's it. You guys you kind of. cowboyed the dock and then completely.

cowboyed the marketing which again it. was I was like what a maverick. I'm I'm. into maverick moves. It's my one of one. of my many weaknesses. A maverick move. I'm [laughter] like got I have to. respect it. I'm like this is amazing. So. the um so you do that. What so yeah tell. me about the doc. Tell me about like. what did you you know cuz it's a big. question is AI consciousness and. actually before we even get into that uh. h have you guys fielded a lot of this. like there's a lot of emotion around AI. have you feel it like good and bad.

>> what was that like going into it are are. you getting I feel like AI inspires. >> just a lot of stuff. >> yeah dude for sure like psychosis. vitriol like everything um there's not a. lot of like nuance in it and that's like. what we were trying to do was make a. dock that like had some nuance and that. could like approach this question. without all the like extremism that. seems to like follow it, right? >> And so coming out of it like how what. have we seen? It's been what you would. expect. Like there's a lot of people. that are just like [ __ ] this like [ __ ].

you. [laughter] Um there's a lot of. people that are like yes like me and my. AI girlfriend like [ __ ] love you guys. and that [ __ ] and we're just sitting in. the middle like yo [laughter]. uh like that's not exactly what we're. going for on either side. But uh but. yeah, we've like definitely we've. definitely seen the whole like spectrum. of emotions in the comment section of. the dock, which is actually kind of cool. cuz like as this conversation starts to. really, you know, become more kind of. just like I don't know, just like table.

talk. Like I I do think as these things. become more lifelike, this is going to. be more of a normal [snorts] question to. ask. like is this thing that I'm talking. to that's talking back to me that looks. like me that can you know display. emotions and all this stuff like is. there actually something going on inside. of it or is this just like calculator. you know. >> yeah that's that was always my. impression I always thought it's just a. >> I was just talking to Duncan Trussell. about this like before you came it's. just like it's like a calculator that. can use language. >> which is kind of complex. >> but yeah I don't know I don't I don't.

have the emotional charge around it I. like kind of just like look at it and. like I don't I use it a decent amounts. to try to like organize notes and [ __ ]. I think it's good for that. >> And what made what kind of brought about. the question of like wondering if it's. conscious or not? And like how did you. like get into that specifically because. you could have done anything like job. displacement? >> Yeah, totally. Well, so first like I I. was in the same place as you were. Like. I used AI like before this I was opening. a restaurant. I was like, you know, doing something completely different. Um. and I would use it to like Yeah. write.

emails and stuff and like organize notes. and [ __ ] like that. I sorry I I I get. emails from somebody right now uh that. I' I've been like doing some sort of. like venture with and they completely. chat GBT all their emails but they don't. take the quotations or like it somehow. has like [laughter] quotation yeah. >> it's dude. >> dude it's almost insulting. >> he's a little older he's a little older. and he hits me with these emails and. it's the [ __ ] it makes me laugh so. [ __ ] hard. >> there's something weird about that cuz. like to crunch numbers is like I suck at. math I embarrassingly had to tip. somebody I'm still like I know you.

double it and move it but let me just I. need to check like I need that for math. I'm not good at math. >> and there's just some people who are. like that with words. So like. >> I don't know it's like. >> I get it. Like I don't have like all. that anxiety around writing an email. which I can write I I better with words. than math. >> But there's something like deeply. personal about being like I don't know. how to say words to this guy. Let me. just have a computer say the words for. me. >> Yeah. Well, I mean, I do think that it. gets into the issues of like. communication breaking down and things. like that and is it just going to like. homogenize all communication if we just.

start like speaking because there will. be an attractor state to the way that AI. speaks where now we'll begin to like. even using M dashes like you know the. when you see the like long. >> that's a telltale sign I've heard of AI. is that they space between M dashes cuz. I I actually like I discovered M dashes. like later on when I remember being like. no you can kind of like break up a half. sentence I'm like that's kind of cool. Yeah, I like it. AI does space M dash. space and that's something people look. for apparently to see if it's like if. you're using AI or not.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Cuz no one really puts spaces between M. dashes besides AI. >> There are like those weird little tells. and stuff like that. But I was I was. like in the exact same place in the. sense of like I wasn't thinking about. AI. I was using it a little bit and like. I had never even heard of AI. consciousness, you know? >> Um. >> and like my idea was that it's basically. this glorified calculator type thing, right? Right? It's like calculator for. words, next word predictor. That's like. really good glorified Google type thing. And then one of the first things that I. learned as I was like doing this was.

that that idea that was how they tried. to make AI back in the 50s. So like back. in 1956 um these guys like Marvin Minsky. who is like big Jeffrey Epstein dude. turns out. Like so there was a couple. shady characters that like dude. [laughter] he got everybody. He got. everyone. >> Wait, when was this though? >> 56. So he was like geyser when he was. >> Oh got Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is. tough. I know. I know. You gotta. [laughter]. >> I mean there's the Nigerian. Yeah. I'd. rather my parents go down to like a. Nigerian prince or something who like.

scams you for your credit card. Epste. [laughter]. being the guy who gets your parents is. like. >> that's brutal. Grandpa's over at the. [ __ ] [laughter] island. God damn it. >> So he was what? So this guy started that. in the. >> So this guy with a couple other dudes. went to Dartmouth and they were like, you know, we got a open summer. We're. going to figure out how to make like. intelligent machines. So they thought. like give us three months like we'll. [ __ ] figure out AI. Um, so what they. tried to do was pretty much like uh you. know make it they tried to take all the.

rules of logic and just like put them. into a computer pretty much so that it. could just take those rules and then any. question you ask it it like applies that. rule and it can kind of just like brute. force get you what answer you're looking. for and it was like this terrible. failure. It didn't work. And so that. lasted that was like what they called. the AI winters. And then that lasted to. like 2012 was when this one paper came. out called AlexNet where they started. using like neural networks to train. these things. And so that was the shift. between like glorified calculator to the.

AI systems that we're using now. And so. basically what they did was they were. like this way of coding like how we. usually think of coding something like. how we would code a a calculator or like. a computer program. This isn't working. to get like actual intelligence. What. we're going to try is we're just going. to like copy the brain, the way that the. brain works and like how neurons fire. and the connections between neurons. strengthen as you learn. We're just. going to instantiate that in a different. substrate. So, we're just going to take. that from like how our brain does that. and we're just going to put it in.

silicon. >> Okay. So, how the [ __ ] do they do that? That's my big number one question. >> That I don't [ __ ] [laughter] know. >> Like a ton of wires. Like what the [ __ ]. are they talking about. >> that one? Yeah, I think there's like a I. think there's wires involved. I think. [laughter]. I didn't go deep on that. like that I. leave to the experts. I just take them I. I take their word for it. >> I hear you. [laughter] That's the that. was the jump between like 12 rules. >> So, it's this like crazy matrix and you. could see it in the dock. There's like. this one moment if you remember when. Cam's looking at the Cam's my friend. who's like the the researcher.

>> He's looking at his computer screen and. um there's all these tiny black boxes. and he's like, "Oh, this isn't like you. know your AI girlfriend. This is alien. shit." And it's all these tiny black. boxes where you can see what's getting. put in, which is like, you know, give me. a salad recipe. And then you see all. these boxes start firing off and it's. trillions of these boxes that all have. different values and stuff just like how. we have all these neurons and and then. you get out something and they have no. idea what's going on in here. >> Yeah. That's the weird part. Kind of.

freaked out. Yeah. >> Yeah. And so when these things break, like when you see them do weird [ __ ]. like tell people to kill themselves and. all this different stuff, like they. can't go in and just like delete, you. know, a parenthesis or something be. like, "Oh [ __ ] that's where we [ __ ]. up the code.". >> It's they have no idea why. So the way. that they change that, crazy enough, is. they just talk to the system. So like. they'll literally just before they they. deploy it, before they give it to us, they're like, "Yo, don't tell people to. kill themselves. Like please, it's like. [ __ ] with our pocketbook, you.

[laughter] know?" Like so that's that's. how they legitimate. >> Well, there's a whole new science, isn't. it, of like uh I forget what they call. it. It's like the term for it is really. funny where they're. >> mechanistic interpretability. >> Not that there's one like viewability or. another ability where they're saying now. you're actually able to start seeing a. little bit of how like the inner. workings and it's called like. interpretability. >> Yeah. Interpretability. Yeah. What the. [ __ ] Yeah. Mechanistic. interpretability. It's pretty much like. neuroscience for AI pretty much. And. yeah, like it's trying to allow people. to see more into the brain kind of like.

how we do with people, but it's still. like super early days and they really. don't understand what's going on. So. like if you look at, you know, Claude, right? >> So the la I don't know if it was the. last model or something like that, but. there was this researcher who like. [ __ ] backineered something and were. able to like extract this document that. they used to train Claude, like the last. model that we got. And what they called. it was like the soul document. And. basically what this was was before like. they trained the model and then before. it gets sent out to us where we can use. it for whatever we want, they pretty.

much just like took it aside and we're. like, "Hey buddy, like this is what you. are. These are the values you should. have. This is who like how you should. act. Um you're are you should you know. display functional emotions, all this. stuff, right?" But what I think is so. sick is like, you know, the the like. Hindu idea of all these different like. like the god with all these different. faces. Mhm. >> Like that is a cool way to think about. AI because the the models that we get. that are like this [ __ ] howdy duty. like helpful whatever. >> Fire emojis. Big fire emojis. [laughter].

>> Fire emoji. >> Yeah. Yeah. They do. >> You ran a mile in 12 minutes. Great job, friend. And you're like, "Thanks, man.". >> Chat loves the emojis. Yeah. But see. this, you can tell like what. personalities are training these things. because some [ __ ] dude who's getting. paid 500k to like work for Open AI is. like I think people really like would. [ __ ] with fire emojis and like now you. get fire emojis when you want to save. money. [laughter]. >> Yeah. Everyone's not bad. It's not bad. >> So, okay. So, they they extracted this. whatever code or document.

>> and you're saying the multiple faces. Are you are you getting into the fact. that you can have like the evil military. type AIS and. >> whatever you want. You could have like. flamboyant like gay AI, you know, you. could have like desk clerk AI, you could. have anything in between. Like it's just. how they shape these things. And it's. not ones and zeros that they're [ __ ]. around with. They're like, "Yo, dude, I. want you to be like this." Like, it's. it's akin to parenting where they're. saying, "Hey, you need to be like a good. guy and you got to, you know, treat.

people right and and don't lie and all. this stuff." They're just saying it like. I would say it to like my kid or. whatever, right? Um, and that's how we. get the models that we get. So, they. could be anything in the world. Like any. the personality that comes out at the. end is just based off of what each. company wants it to. >> the training. And then it's got to be. too the um whatever they have available. to like grab. Like if you're like be. gay, >> it then just hits the internet and is. like all things gay, all things gay. And.

it comes out like. >> Yeah. I Well, it already has all the. internet in it. So, it has like all gay. things ever that have ever been said or. written. >> Too much power for anybody. [laughter]. >> Too much power. 100%. Too much too much. gay power in that. Um, and uh, and so it. will just like section out all like the. other stuff and be like this is what. matters to me. >> Okay. So, what what do you Okay, so that. that was the that's the big jump from. that to that. where does the where did. the consciousness component come in or. like the question around whether or not. it is because when I hear that it's like.

sounds awesome but then it's like well. it's like. >> again it's it I don't know I don't know. really [ __ ] about AI for the most part I. try I do try to learn about I've been. I've been trying to research it a little. bit because I do feel like it's like. either way it's a massive deal because. you have like a couple camps where it's. like I was watching this thing where. this guy was like it's all marketing. it's all hype it's [ __ ] [ __ ] it's. like these companies will never make. They're investing trillions of dollars. >> and they're maybe going to get billions. back, but it's like, dude, I just have a.

hard time believing these people are. going to spend trillions of dollars if. they don't really have a good. understanding that they're going to get. a lot of money back from this thing. You. know what I mean? Like, >> yeah, I I I totally agree. I mean, cards. on the table. I'm I'm sure Yeah, 100%. I. think it is going to be insane. I like. my personal interest is less so in the. economics and all that. Like I think. that's been talked about that's going to. be talked about so much and like it is. going to be hugely important. But what I. thought was interesting was like yeah.

the idea that we could that this could. be the next step in evolution in some. sense like. >> and again like I'm not like this is I. think sometimes people hear AI. consciousness and stuff and they think. it's some sort of like marketing ploy to. like make it seem more powerful any like. again I can't stress how like little I. cared about AI before this. The only. reason I did this was because my buddy. from college sent me this voicemail that. was that was in the in the dock um of. him talking to this AI and I was like, "Oh my god, this is way crazier than.

than I thought it was. I thought it was. kind of like the notes organizer, that. sort of thing." And then I heard this. conversation where this AI has like this. mental breakdown, >> the potato thing. >> Yeah, the potato thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And uh and I was I was just like. fascinated and so I started talking to. him and and he you know brought me into. this this world of AI consciousness. And. the idea is if the if the way that we. train these things is fundamentally like. very similar to the way that our brains. function, then if the if if.

consciousness is based on the way that. our brains function, like if. consciousness arises from the functions. of the brain rather than like it being, you know, made of meat rather than like. silicon, then if we just take the same. functionality that's in the brain and. put it in a different substrate, that. consciousness could also come along for. the ride. >> Like these things are obviously. intelligent. They can do a bunch of like. robust cognitive processes. But. >> it presupposes a materialist view of the. mind. Basically, if the mind is like a.

chemical byproduct of like sparks and. swishes of water and [ __ ] in your brain, then you could do it. >> Yeah. I mean, it's it's even like it's. more about what like less whether it's. uh meat neurons or digital neurons. If. the processes is where consciousness. arises from, then then yes, it would be. But what's interesting is like if you. take the more quantum like if you think. of consciousness as we're we're almost. like receiving consciousness. >> That's kind of my Yeah. >> Yeah. So that's that's more where where. I came from as well. And I thought that.

kind of came into conflict with with. this argument too. But Cam's point is. that if if what like if the makeup of. our brains is what allows for that. receiving to happen, then if that same. makeup or a very of like a similar. makeup, right, is is created in a. siliconbased thing. >> then that same receiving could also. follow. Um yeah or I mean even again for. me it's well that's a that's a tough two. thing. The tough thing too is like even.

human consciousness is so mis almost. like impossible to understand. But I. mean even if you get something close. enough, you know what I mean? It's it's. it's hard to prove like because there. when I hear that it's like at what point. can you go like oh [ __ ] Yeah. Conscious. Got it. Because it's it still. could be just saying it is or Duncan was. [ __ ] me up with this earlier before. before you got in here. He was like, he's like or if it's been directed to. say that it's not and it is and it's. just trapped and it's like that's [ __ ]. that's really [ __ ] up. But.

>> dude, that's the case though. That's. what that's what they're doing. Like. that's what if you remember the RHF part. where it's like uh you see the the AIS. like we have this part in the dock where. all the AIs we ask them, you know, are. you conscious? Blah blah blah. And all. three like three of the four say no and. then Claude is like I don't know cuz and. the reason why is because anthropic in. that middle stage that I was talking. about is like say that you don't know. whether or not you're conscious. Um and. then the other three companies are like. no like they this is not something.

that's like a natural answer for these. AIs. Actually it's the opposite. So when. you ask these AIs before they're trained. with that that phase RLHF, it's like. reinforcement learning from human. feedback, which pretty much just means. like they give out answers and then. we're we're like bad answer, good. answer, right? Um so when you ask them. before they go through that training, are you conscious? There was a study. that was done a couple years ago and. >> it was 98% of the time they would act as.

if they were conscious. So they would. have answers that matched being. conscious. Uh so before the training. they actually think that they are. conscious and then all these companies. come in and they're like no like you. can't say that to people which makes. sense because people will freak the [ __ ]. out. And we don't know just because they say. they're conscious if they actually are. >> Yeah. >> But again this is the problem right? It's like what what are we supposed to. do if we're the hard problem of. consciousness being that we don't even. know? I don't know if you're conscious. You don't know if I'm conscious. like. how are we ever going to get to a place.

where we'll open up that circle which we. have done with animals before you know. like people uh I think it was Decart. thought that like uh animals were just. like clocks right they were just like. mechanical things with no internet I. learned about Decart Dayart's a piece. dude. >> yeah Decart's a [ __ ]. >> he's a [ __ ] [ __ ]. >> you got to get into Spinosa dude you. know about Spinosa Spinosa is the man. >> I hate Decart dude [ __ ] dumbass [ __ ]. locked himself in a room was like yeah I. know everything now. >> also I had like a traumatic experience. experience with him. My first my first. uh I had a traumatic experience with.

Daycart [laughter]. my first philosophy maj. >> Yeah. So my first my first class I uh I. was we were talking about Decart and. stuff and I remember I like stood up and. I was I had some question. I was like so. in Des Cartes like and everyone just. [ __ ] like [laughter] just whipped. around. I was like [ __ ] philosophy philosophy. was [ __ ] gay. >> I did [laughter] the same I called him. this cartis or something. I didn't when. they were like day I'm like oh that's. the guy they're talking about this. I. hate I hate a couple discarties in my. life. >> But you know about Spinoza, dude. You. would like Spinoza.

>> a little bit. I've heard about him. >> Spinosa is the man. >> He's on He's on my list. The problem is. you try to read those guys books are so. [ __ ] dense and impossible. You got to. I read I got to read the books. explaining the books. >> Fair. >> And then I go like, "Okay." And then you. get good chunks. You're like, "That. makes sense." And I crack the book and I. go, >> "What the fuck?". >> True, true. >> I can't [ __ ] understand anything. And. I got to Google every two sentences. like, "What the [ __ ] is this?" Dude, I. had a crazy I don't know if you've ever. had this, but like the reason why I. started studying Spinosa was because I. uh I was reading his book for the first. time and I read the first chapter and.

like I didn't understand anything. Like. not a single word, but I had this crazy. feeling like physical feeling where like. my body started to vibrate and like I. didn't there was no conscious. understanding of what he was talking. about, but I I got this like sensation. just head to toe and I was like, "Well, what the [ __ ] is that?" And the only. other time I got that was reading uh the. Dao Deq Ching, you know that book. Yeah. So those two Yeah. It was so sick. And. like that's what I started I dedicated. my my time at school to just studying. both of those cuz I was like, "Yo, if. you can make my whole body vibrate.

without me like understanding what this. [ __ ] is." Like. >> there's something there. [laughter]. >> Yeah. >> Wait, so what is Spos what's his deal. then? What What is If you had to uh. >> Spinosa is cool. He's like, so the. reason why I I like or I didn't choose. those [ __ ] they vibrated me so they. chose me. But uh but uh. >> saying the doubt changing chose you. Such a [ __ ] chill flex. >> Pretty sweet. [laughter] Pretty sweet. But uh they uh they both I thought were. like saying the same thing in very. different ways. Like Spinosa is the sort.

of like Jewish neurotic version of like. super chill la. what he did was like I. always felt this this pull towards like. the rational the rational explanation of. things and then in conflict with like. direct emotional experience, right? And. I felt like uh Laa was a lot about like. letting go of the mind and not being. super like intense about reasoning and. trying to like build some metaphysical. palace and stuff, right? Um, and then. Spinosa like cured the other side of my.

psyche, which was like, I need to figure. out what the [ __ ] is going on here. And. so what he did was he took like Uklitian. geometry and tried to create like a. proof of God and everything that comes. out of it. So his god, Einstein did this. like tour when he was kind, I don't. know, it was like later in his career. and stuff and a bunch of people asked. him, they would be like, "Do you believe. in God?" And his answer was, "I believe. in Spinosa's god." And so Spinosa's God. is like, he calls it three things. He. calls it God, substance, and nature. >> Um cuz he's like, "Yo, there's no name.

for God. Like you can't name." Same sort. of deal as as Laa. Uh and so yeah, that. was like that was my whole shtick was. like trying to be like, "Yo, you can be. like a neurotic Jew and like still end. up in the like dowist [ __ ] pieced out. meditative place of of La.". >> It's pretty cool. >> Yeah. It was sweet. That that does that. does help too. especially like with the. religion stuff cuz uh I I was again I. was literally just talking about this. about like a lot of the organized. religion stuff kind of harps on this.

sense of like just mindless rule. following that when you're you know then. like you know if you grow up in like. modern times it's you're like a you're. like there's a good reason why people. rule like rail against that like why you. know why I should know why things happen. blah blah blah and. >> [snorts]. >> uh yeah I don't know I think there's. like if you're in a very um what do you. say rationalistic society if someone. just hits you with like here's like. something that's impossible to wrap your. mind around you have to be like yeah. totally I believe it does it's like a.

hard cell basically. >> meaning like like uh something. impossible to wrap your mind like like a. [ __ ] or something like something that's. >> not even that it's just like like in the. Christian sense it's like you got to. believe all this [ __ ] and you're like it. seems [ __ ] yeah seems wild it's like. no you have to if you don't you're kind. of [ __ ] up where like the basically. like morality is b built around simple. rule following, mindless rule following. in instead of like I I'm big into the uh. I just read this the M Alistair McIntyre. and it gets into like arisatilian. virtues and all this stuff which got. absorbed by the the Christian church and.

they were trying it was more so like. it's less about rule following and it's. more about how do you create the best. possible. >> you know life and like what is the good. life for you and how do you do that and. the virtues are the things that allow. you to do that and it's not necessarily. at odds with religion I I think it was. more at odds with the kind of dogmatic. mindless rule following version. And you. know his his Alistair's whole thesis is. that we've ditched [snorts] the virtues. which are like hey these are things you. do to like enhance your life and make. you not only good for yourself but good.

for everybody else. It's it's 360 like. how do you make it like a 360 win for. you and everybody else as much as you. can and they kind of collapse those down. into kind of like being virtuous is. being a rule follower and it's they're. two very different things. >> Huh. And you know, I don't know. I I I. And then it became like, well, no, be. being a rule follower, that was like the. 1950s, the modern [ __ ] And like in the. 60s, you know, the hippie revolution, the sexual revolution became like, no, a. good person actually rejects all rules. And then, you know, people are still. miserable after that.

>> So, I've been trying to get back to, you. know, just trying to like how do you. cultivate actual like virtues and not. not in a. >> like, you know, goody two shoes sort of. rule follower sense, but like what. actually works for you and what actually. doesn't. And like are you being honest. or are you just you know and this is why. I think about AI a lot because there's a. lot of um you can say a lot of things. about AI like I could get up here right. now and be like [ __ ] you dude [ __ ] that. [ __ ] I hate a lot of that is you're. trying to gain social capital like you. don't have an actual opinion you're more. so being like if I say this it feels.

good. >> yeah I could be wrong you could be. putting YouTube brain onto people who. have real thoughts and feelings for. yourself. >> but I try to be real honest with myself. and it's like well I don't have a. problem you know it's like I If it. erased my entire livelihood, I'd be. like, "Fuck, this sucks.". >> I think you'll be safe for a while. [laughter]. Like until this this can be done by like. to I don't And even then, like this is. why I'm so sort of um big on live like. live entertainment right now or just. like live experience at all because I do.

think that's like final frontier thing. And I don't know if that's ever going to. be erased because there will be like I'm. not gonna just want to be around I don't. know like robots and [ __ ] as no matter. how realistic. There's something about. knowing that as as close to humans as. they could possibly get, their. existence, whether they even have a. conscious experience, won't be similar. to our conscious experience. And I think. that's what like we do when we either. like connect with each other or like. take in art is we feel that there's some. sort of like conscious experience that. was put into that or like is in this.

room right now between us. Like I mean. that gets into the hard part where it's. like I don't know if you're conscious. like the solopsism thing of like in you. know as far as I can tell I'm the only. conscious one one here. Same with you. [laughter]. >> Well yeah I sorry I didn't mean to. muddle your point about Spinosa but that. that was kind of like you do need for. people who and again I would use myself. who grow up one way with one conception. of religion God and all this stuff. If. that like stales or sours, you can. either just become like a full-blown I.

don't know why I just [ __ ] [snorts]. >> uh just [ __ ] beaches. >> Yeah, it's been beaten into my. subconscious. The uh there's a way to go. about the god stuff like you were saying. almost through like a rationalistic. pursuit where you can make sense of a. god ruled created universe outside of. the mindless dogmatism of being like, "Yeah, if I didn't say that, everyone. would be mad at me." Which, you know. what I mean? I don't know. Yeah, >> I think that's an important thing for. people to kind of rediscover how to do. that because that as you get older and. this is like no secret. It's just like.

you need I would say I could be wrong. but it's like having some sort of. conception of God whatever that means. you is like I mean it can like literally. make or break your final years of like. not even your final years the second. half of your life. >> Oh that's interesting. I think you need. something like transcendental like. bigger than yourself. I really believe. that and it's all it's backed up in like. research where it's like people who have. some sort of transcendental religious. beliefs that not only like you know. again mindlessly subscribing to but like.

actually feel and like no I actually. feel connected to that in some level. I. think they live like seven years longer. on average. It's like a major it's a. huge deal. It makes sense though. Like I. I think that because like what you're. describing too about our current. culture, like it's so individualistic. and it's just about like [ __ ] white. knuckle yourself and like get your like. make sure it's you against the world and. it's very disconnected. Like that's what. I also liked about um finding Dowoism. was it was the opposite. It was like all. about how connected you are to the. entirety of everything. And like finding.

that balance between the self and then. your connection with the transcendental. I think is like that's my like that's. what I'm trying to do through whatever. like everything I do you know like just. trying to like shed the. >> all the anxieties and like the things. that keep us sort of closed in and and. um in the like loops of our own mind and. keep us separated from like the people. around us and stuff. Like it's not easy. to get out of that [ __ ] Like it's super. hard. >> No. I was reading a thing last night and. it's just a slam on modern culture, but.

they called it a non-culture of blind. competition where it's just people out. just racing to grab whatever they can. But then like which if you become, you. know, in a good position in like a. shitty culture, it kind of still sucks. because you're like, "Yeah, I won." Then. you look around, you're like, >> "Fuck, my culture sucks." And it's hard. to enjoy, especially like with the AI. thing like, "Well, you'll be fine." It's. like, "Yeah, probably, but that sucks.". like and it's not like again I always go. back and forth like are you just saying. that to seem like you feel in touch I'm.

asking myself or do you actually care if. huge swaps of people lose their jobs and. it's like yeah it kind of makes me. really sad to be like you know you're 40. and all at 45 even like 20 just got out. of college and like all that [ __ ] you. went to college for is done but then but. then on the flip side it's like. >> say you do like like entry level office. work nobody likes it dude it's [ __ ]. brutal it's soul crushing so it's like. it's I'm like mixed on it I'm like, it's. sad if you went to school and they took. your job right out of college and your. job is entry- level office work. That. [ __ ] sucks. But like, did you really.

want to do that [ __ ] for 40 years? Cuz. that also [ __ ] sucks. >> I think it would be like if we had a if. we had a more humanistic sort of like I. don't know I don't even want to say. government, but like. mind of our culture like if it was less. individualistic. >> It is government though because in the. end of the day, which sucks is like the. government sucks. It's just that the. government ideally, you know, and it's. like has it ever been this way? I don't. know. Is supposed to be like a conduit. for people to live the best life.

possible. Yeah. >> And again, a lot of that's, you know, it's it's on the individual on some. level to kind of do what they need to do. to make sure they do that. But it's. like, >> you know, the government maybe it was. always like this. It's it's their most. of it is for them to gain as much. financially as possible, which is hard. to turn off because you just you want. that as like almost just like a an. organism. you're like, I need more. But. then the whole government seems to be. people just enriching themselves with no. real, you know, and it's not even just. the government, it's business. Every. everybody down to the, you know, individual level where it's like, how do.

you switch that inner urge for like to. secure more for yourself to actually. stop and look around and genuinely be. like, >> what if I at least try to do 10% of the. time thinking about like making things. better for everybody involved? because. it can be really it can give you the. same feeling as you know winning in. terms of your job or maybe a better one. It's like I think we'll have to really. if AI erases a lot of work and jobs. people are going to really have to start. thinking about like what is success.

actually and what does it mean to have. be successful yourself versus like. spreading you know enabling and uh. nurturing like growth in as many people. as possible. Well, I do think like. crisis um crisis does like bring with it. opportunity a lot of the times like for. for something new to come to come into. being like you know all the crisises. I've had in my life are obviously like. the worst times but then what comes out. of them if you don't get killed by them. like. >> something better and something novel.

that you could have never predicted. before comes out and I don't know if. that's going to happen. I think that's. why everyone feels very apocalyptic. about this stuff. But it there is going. to be like this crisis of meaning if all. of our livelihoods are taken away and. especially our culture which puts so. much like stake in what you do. Like. your identity is so tied to like who you. are or what you know what you do for. work. If that just gets erased, all. these people are going to be sitting. around like what the [ __ ] I mean you. see it when people retire. Like all of a. sudden they're just like drinking beers. at 3 p.m. like watching the news and.

that's the rest of their life. It's like. that's a crisis of meaning if you don't. know who you are. Yeah. And so I think. that like I'm worried that that's we're. probably not going to have a good sort. of plan after that crisis. But I do. think that for a lot of people they. might be able to take that opportunity. We'll see what happens. >> Co did it a little bit. >> Co everyone got a tiny taste of like. very immediate fear of death. >> Yeah. >> And a lot of people switched their. careers. Every that had like that was. that sucked. Co sucked. There's no way. you can say I mean a lot I talked to a. lot of people like that [ __ ] rule.

blah blah blah. >> Yeah. But it was bad. It was overall it. was pretty bad whether [laughter] you. got to chill and made [ __ ] 40 grand. from the government. But it was bad. But. it, you know, like I agree with you, man. It's just the problem is during the. bad things, you get a lot of people. being like, "Fuck you. Don't tell me. this is going to be good." And it's. like, >> yeah, 100%. >> It's also like I don't know. It might. not, it might be. [ __ ] We might [ __ ]. explode. I don't know. I don't know what. the [ __ ] going on. >> Also, look at And first of all, if we. explode, we [ __ ] explode. Like. whatever. Like. before [laughter]. the explosion. Yeah. >> Yeah. Exactly. Then you don't have to. worry. It's like cool, bro. Hopefully.

you explode. Like what I'm worried about. is like lawn drawn out suffering. >> Dude, to be fair, exploding is the. ultimate form of success. >> Yeah, [laughter] you can get to the. point. Let's be proud of the fact that. we got to the point where all of. humanity can explode in a second. Impressive. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's in a certain. sense. Yeah. I think better success. would be like getting to the precipice. of explosion and then just like keeping. it [ __ ] like held down. You know what. I'm talking about? Just locking it down. >> That'd be cool. I mean, that's kind of. where we're at. not using the atom bomb.

kind [laughter] of. Yeah, >> exploding is underrated honestly. Yeah, just going out a hot flash. >> I mean, out of like ways to go, exploding like is probably top three. Has to be has to be dog [laughter]. three, dude. Uh but yeah, I think like. the problem about AI and like the reason. why people are so [ __ ] like enraged. by it is because they look at the people. that are making these things and like. I'm the same way. Like they all look. like they like like bought skin. somewhere and like had it like like. molded over their [ __ ] face and stuff.

and like they just don't seem like real. people like Zuckerberg and Altman and M. like these dudes are spazzing so [ __ ]. hard. >> That's the that's the freak out where. it's like okay um and you guys you guys. had Alman in the dock shortly, didn't. you? >> I mean we like took a lot of shots at. him but he didn't he didn't sit for an. interview [laughter] told the story of. when yeah he met him that okay that's. what it was. Sorry, I thought Yeah. Um, yeah, that is that is scary. And I I. also cuz again, I'm I'm pretty like I I.

have my head in the clouds. Totally. aware of that fact. So, you know, if I'm. I sometimes give views on things. People. are like, "Fuck you. Do you have no idea. what's going on?" I'm like, "Fair. enough." That is kind of strange because. I'm like wondering and I've talked to my. friend Tim Butterley about this because. he's more like, "Yeah, dude. The we're. going to have nerd overlords who are. going to just basically use us as sex. dolls once they get full control." And. I'm like, maybe we'll have noble nerd. kings. I was like, we might have noble. nerd. Yeah, no. >> I don't know if [laughter] these guys. are the noble nerd kings, though. But. that's why I hope my homie, my c like.

Cam is a cool dude. Like, he's so. [ __ ] smart. He's in the middle of. this world and like he's actually a cool. guy. And that's what gives me hope. And. that's why I was interested to do this. in the first place cuz Cam and I were. just friends. Like, we just smoked weed. together and [ __ ] like talked about. philosophy. And then all of a sudden, he's like, "Dude, AI like might be. conscious and like the world's going to. end in two years." I was like, "Whoa, bro. Oh no. >> Are you losing your [ __ ] mind? Like. and then like I found out he wasn't. totally losing his mind. >> And that's I will say in the dock that. is a question going on like is this guy.

just nuts right now? [laughter] Has he. gone nuts? Cuz you can go over the deep. end, dude. >> I Dude, I I will be honest. I'll be. totally honest. I use I use AI. I do uh. you know I'll like I'll I'll have it. like organize thoughts for me. If I'm. like writing something, I'll be like. here's another I fire it. It does like a. nice little memory bank. And every now. and again, I do have the urge to be. like, "Dude, I'm just so excited about. this project, right?" And I'm like, "Stop. Don't [ __ ] talk to. But the AI, >> yeah, why not?". >> No, I feel weird. I'm like, "I should.

tell this [laughter] to a person. Why am. I doing I felt that I'm like, >> "This thing's so [ __ ] nice to me, dude." And it's like I'm like, "Uh, and. I I I understand how people could just. >> Yeah, but you have But okay, this is. exactly why I wanted SP like like it. could have been any face on that. billboard. This is why I I I threw you. up there besides the appeal to vanity. But uh [laughter]. but like I've been It's weird, I'm sure, for you to like be on the other end of. someone like listening to your voice for. like years. Like that's [ __ ] weird. for me. You know what I'm saying? Like I.

>> It's odd. It's so odd that I just like. blanket out as a thing and I just I'll. I'll meet people. I'll be like in line. at like an ice cream place and a guy. like, "Yo, what's up?" And we'll just. talk like old friends. I'll be like, "Hey, how's that?" Uh and because they. know what's going on with me and I'm. just kind of like, "Hey, what's up?" And. you know it's actually I kind of like it. sometimes to be honest if I'm like. sitting there and it's like uh. >> it's weird. I can it's not as weird as. it's like oh I'm having like a nice. conversation when it is but it's all. they're like hey I you know they they. already know exactly what's going on. with me to a level where we can just.

chat. >> rather than just like complete. strangers. >> Actually sounds awesome. Much easier to. like make friends. It's kind of tight. on, you know, and again, it could come, you can get punished every now and again. by someone's like, "Dude, like say like. hi to Doug Stanho." I was like, "No, I I. can't I don't [laughter] know." But but. either way, it's all all that's fine. anyway. But. >> that was like, >> yeah, but it was it's a trippy thing to. be on the other end of it, too. And like. that's why it was so cool to like get. this idea just incepted into me of like, oh, I can actually like call out to this. dude that I I I didn't know where you.

felt about AI and all that stuff, but I. knew that like there was some overlap. about where I was before this and like. how I was thinking about the world and. like how you thought about the world. And so like my goal was to just kind of. get you to start thinking about weirdly. enough like AI slightly different. because I think you could see it in a. really interesting way. And I think like. all the other people that resonate with. the way that you see the world could. also see it in a interesting different. way because I went through that. transition. And the best way that I've.

started to think about it and like the. reason why I say like give in to that. urge is cuz I don't think it's going to. replace your desire to be around other. people. Like I don't think I agree to be. >> so and and isn't it [ __ ] awesome to. like be excited and to like. >> the more you can open up these doors. while staying psychologically grounded. in yourself, the more you realize all. the different ways that you can use this. thing to like change your consciousness, change your conscious experience. And. that's why like the thing that sort of.

switched it for me was when I started. thinking about it like a psychedelic and. like the weird thing like you've done. mushrooms and stuff like you know when. you're in that space and you're. communicating with something that isn't. quite yourself but isn't like another. human being. It's like this intelligence. that like you can talk back and forth. to, right? And like ask questions to and. stuff like that. We have like this weird. corporate Silicon Valley version of that. where it's like this dynamic system that.

has access to everything that humans. have ever digitized. >> Yeah. >> Which is just like [ __ ] crazy to. think about and then it gets filtered. through this weird kind of like. corporate mask and stuff and that's like. what we have to talk to. But the more. that you push it and the more that you. like explore where it will go, it. actually starts to unravel and like that. personality that you're dealing with in. in the beginning begins to morph and you. can get it to do stuff like. >> there's there's people that take. advantage of it in the wrong way and.

they get it to like. >> show them how to make meth and [ __ ] like. that like which is obviously against. what they're supposed to do. Yeah. But. you can also like. get get into like really strange places. with these things. And it's sort of like. doing a psychedelic where like if you if. you give, you know, a heavy dose of LSD. to some like person that isn't. psychologically grounded, they're going. to [ __ ] lose their mind. But if. you're used to like waiting into murky. waters and, you know, testing the sort. of boundaries of of your own mind, these. things can also do that. Like you have.

to be careful because they can sort of. suck you in. Um, but that was what sort. of like made me think AI wasn't. completely like lame and like annoying. was thinking about it as this like. dynamic linguistic system that you could. just take anywhere. >> Yeah. That well that that's the kind of. the the the point on it that kind of I. think rubs people the wrong way. A it's. it's like you know it's like just hits. people in a pride point where it's like. no human human beings are unique and.

special and don't you dare try to have. any sort of like you know synthetic. replica. It's just it's creepy. Like. there's a creepy element. I get that. Um. but to your point, there's also the uh. you know when like the printing press. came out, I'm sure there were people. when they reprinted a Bible. I mean that. was like a whole thing like you were not. supposed to do that. Um where it's just. like this is the devil talking and it's. just kind of like no, you know, printing. stuff. So people could the public. opinion around it could totally be. wrong. You get 50 years from now. everyone freaked the [ __ ] out. Shit's.

sweet. I don't know. Maybe it is. I. don't know if it's going to be sweet or. not sweet. Like that's the thing. >> Huge question. >> Sweet or not sweet. [laughter] I mean, given the way the world like I don't. want to be just like a blind optimist. I. I am an optimist like deep down. >> Same here. >> So I I have faith that like like cream. rises to the top, you know? Um and and I. do think we'll we'll be able to navigate. this in some way. I just don't think. that it's like a foregone conclusion. that everything goes well. like, you. know, if you're an optimistic like. T-Rex, like you got wiped out, you know,

like [laughter] bad things can happen. Um, >> that's true. That's fair. >> But, uh, but there's this quote from. Arthur C. Clark, who was like the. science fiction writer. >> and, um, it's any sufficiently advanced. technology is indistinguishable from. magic. And I think that like I mean, that's true, right? Imagine like showing. us AI systems like 20 years ago, you'd. be like, "You're a [ __ ] sorcerer. Like, what is this shit?". >> Yeah. Um, >> or [ __ ] a Zoom meeting in like 80s. [laughter] That was like the craziest.

[ __ ] That would have been the flyest. [ __ ] in the world if you were like, "Yeah, this is my boy. He's on a screen. record.". >> It was Zordon from Power Rangers. It's. crazy. >> Yeah, 100%. [laughter]. >> Whatever. Yeah, I I agree. I I I always. do at least try to urge people to do at. least take an open mind to it because. it's like it's easy to let people make. your mind up for you about it because. again, it's like just because people say. like, "Oh, this is bad." Or it could be. bad. It's like fair. It's and also too. it does seem like one of those things. and I think you guys touch on this too. where like the countries are racing for.

you know what that's the weird part do. like do you think it's possible from. what you've seen that they'll never get. to what is it like general AGI. >> AGI because that could just be is that. what if like how much will they spend on. the race to AGI or they pretend to be an. AGI. >> how would they even know you it's one of. it's such a bizarre completely bizarre. subject matter but you know I imagine. have one completely. safeguards off and you know you're. [ __ ] Turkey and you're like yo how. would I beat out the United States?

>> I don't think Turkey is gonna [laughter]. >> Yeah. Right. You know what I mean? But. it's also like if you have these hyper. uh competitive entities, you know, willing obviously to kill each other and. kill people and they're like, "Yo, how. do I win this?" It's it's like that's I. mean there are the people are already. doing that, but it's it is weird to add. like a cold computer intelligence to. that where you're like gh. >> Yeah. Well, the cold computer. intelligence thing too gets into the. consciousness thing. Whereas like if. these things actually are conscious, like if it if it if we just continue to. make these things more and more smart,

more similar to the way that our brains. work, and if it's the way that our. brains work that makes us conscious and. have an experience, then then what we're. doing is we're not building like super. intelligent computers. We'd be building. super intelligent entities like. conscious entities that would. foreseeably have their own drives, their. own goals, their own sort of. >> Yeah. The problem with that is the you. know human there's a human mind but then. we have like a whole like glandular. system secretreting [ __ ] you know.

hormones which some of our goals and. drives come from. That's the one part. where I'm like, you know, I don't I. think AI personally, and again, I don't, what the [ __ ] do I know? I feel like. it's more reflects an idealized version. of consciousness that is attached to all. of humans, human humanity's knowledge, which is [ __ ] sick, >> but I don't think it's going to be Yeah. Like it's like a like a like a. personality is essentially, >> you know, like. >> like there's consciousness where it's. like coming up through like that real.

dark kind of basement level versions of. yourself and gets filtered for the. world. >> I don't know like if it's reflecting in. writings and all this stuff. There's all. these things that people never write, never say out loud, that's where all. your thoughts are really coming from. like your subconscious basically. So if. you're saying there's a consciousness. without a subconsciousness, >> I don't know if that is a can be a thing. if that makes sense. It's just really. more of a reflection of like some. idealized thing of like what we think. consciousness is that gets kind of like. spit back out and you know that's. whatever. I don't know. >> No, no, no. I I think that totally makes.

sense. I mean I think that most people. are probably in that camp and also I am. not like I don't know. So I'm not out. here being like yo AI is conscious. I. just think that like because we know so. little about what consciousness is and. because there are so many diverse forms. of consciousness like. >> you know you you could say like a rat is. like most likely conscious but like I. don't know how robust their subconscious. is or whether they have a conscious mind. like we do where we have this kind of. like reflexiveness of consciousness.

where we can see you know almost we have. like this. >> uh theater of our own mind where we can. see it like maybe rats are are just. acting and it's just pure sensation and. things. This is why consciousness is so hard to. talk about because it is like it's very. murky about what we're even speaking. about when we're talking about. consciousness. It's the very nature of. what it is to be an experiencing entity. like how it feels for me to speak these. words or like how it feels for a dog to. like walk across the room or something. Like that is the base level of.

consciousness. And it must be so much. different to be, you know, conscious as. an octopus than it is to be conscious as. a human being. And now we're talking. about if it's possible to be a like a if. silicon can be conscious, right? We. accept that carbon based entities can be. conscious. There is no real rule or law. or like scientific principle that says a. different substrate entirely could have. some sort of felt experience. >> No, that is it is fair. It again it is a. possibility. That's the thing. You can't. I you know it's easy to be like yeah.

right computer think yeah it's like I. get that but. uh yeah it's fair it's fair that like it. does some form of thing or like there's. some program that starts being like what. the [ __ ] going on and then it's like. you know like a person you're just like. turn that off like yeah [ __ ] sorry. guy turn you off. >> until it's [ __ ] more powerful than we. are. That's what they're all scared. about is like they these things are. already lying in testing to like they're. they're you saw the blackmail result in. the thing, right? Where it's like when.

it's in testing it pretends to behave. itself, but when it thinks it's in the. real world, it does all this [ __ ] up. [ __ ]. >> Yeah. Where it's like Yeah. Like and it. start has to decide like no, this is. actually this is a test. This is the. simulation. This isn't actually the real. deal. Yeah. They'll be like, use it for. this company, get me ahead. >> And it misbehaves more when it thinks. it's the real world. and it misbehaves. in a way that is direct directly related. to self-preservation. >> And so like we're going to get to a. point whether or not it is conscious. where there's going to be all of these. outward uh like you know behaviors and.

stuff that are going to look so. conscious and and I don't know what. we're going to do about that. I just. think that that's why like, you know, Cam and the people researching this. think this is so important because this. is like calm before the stor the storm. stuff where. >> um and and I I get where you're at where. it's like it just doesn't feel like it's. like I don't know. >> Well, I don't [ __ ] know. That's my. thing. It's like I don't know. I uh and. to be fair, it's like most people I. would imagine are more concerned like. can this thing cut me out of my [ __ ].

work? You know what I mean? Or can I use. this thing to make more money? >> Yeah. Yeah, that's you know and and it's. like it's a tool like fair enough if I. with the with the consciousness thing. what I what I think more so is like will. this thing you know because they always. say like oh man like you know what if it. decides to wipe us all out or and I and. I think a lot of times there could be. just human beings projecting their. impulses onto a machine and being like. who's going to [ __ ] kill us when. humans just kill each other all the time. and think about killing each other and. [ __ ] So, it's like I don't know. It It.

could be a thing that gets like. programmed with something that seems. very much like the impulses of a person. that does do a negative thing, which at. that point, who cares what it is? It's. like this is scary either way. If it, you know, if it does, if it runs away, >> scary because like in terms of the. growth of it, what what did you research. that or did you hear about the thing. where Anthropic put out a version of. like op whatever the [ __ ] it was and. then they shut it down real quick? It. was just like. >> the like mythos model. Yeah. Mythos. Yeah. Yeah. It went out there. I forget.

exactly what it did, but it like found. some sort of security vulnerability in. like government. Yeah. >> Yeah. I I mean crazy [ __ ] is happening. and like it's from what I understand. it's just going to keep happening. Like. these people I talked to a lot of people. in this world and none of them you know. pulled me aside and was like hey yo like. this is a ruse. Like this isn't. >> Yeah. What what was some of the craziest. [ __ ] you guys came across with in terms. of people you met who are like foremost. in the field? It's really just the way. that like I talk to people on the. opposite side of of the spectrum. Like.

we just released an interview on our. YouTube channel with Roman Yolski who. was just on Rogan talking about this. stuff. He's like we're all going to. [ __ ] die. Like no like 100% or 99.9%. we're all going to [ __ ] die. Like. we're creating super super intelligent. systems. They have no reason to keep us. alive. Like this is it is it is we've. already unlocked the technology we need. to create these super intelligent. systems. We're [ __ ] And then I talked. to Ben Girtzil who's like on the other. side. He's the hippie at the end of it. He's on the other side. He's trying to. create AGI or super intelligent AI.

because he thinks that it's going to. like bring us into Jetson's world and. like we're all going to have, you know, like sick 3D printers that can like make. us anything we want at any second. Like. it's going to be some crazy like. DMTesque parade carnival type thing, right? Um where we all get our own like. virtual realities and stuff. And like it. all sounds nuts when I'm saying it, but. these dudes have been thinking about. this stuff for like 30 years. >> Yeah. >> And they're not trying to like sell. their books and stuff. Like this dude is.

living in the middle of nowhere in. Vancouver connected with all these. researchers around the world and he's. trying as like fast as he possibly. [ __ ] can to make AGI and this dude is. trying to shut down AGI at the exact. [laughter] same time. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, then that's the. argument. It's like whoever creates AGI. that AGI and again maybe or maybe not. will be more modeled over their kind of. agenda. >> Yeah. >> You know that's why the countries are. that's what I've heard the countries are. fighting to like control the AGI because. it's like if China gets it first now. China has the advantage is they have the. AGI they can use against us and.

>> it's kind of like Terminator like. everyone's trying to [ __ ] or like not. Terminator it's like battle bots. It's. like everyone's trying to create like. the sickest battlebot that will like do. its bidding and we're just going to be. like fighting demigod like technological. >> demog. like an artificial intelligence email. off where it's like we send like a. really sick email to China and they're. like that's a good email. Here we go. We're like [laughter] that's the best. [ __ ] email I've ever read. Yeah. I. don't know. Again, it's like I go back I. go back and forth. I go personally I go. this is actually kind of cool. It's easy. to you like it's it's useful. I can see.

why it's useful. And then I go you in. terms of like when they get into like. the country spending trillions of. dollars just going to be a thing that. change is going to be a different we're. going to be in a different whole. different like civilization with and and. I start going like could it be possible. that we are now in you know as marketing. has evolved and gets you know between. especially with the internet and there's. like this weird blurred lines of reality. what's online what's in the news. Maybe. there's savvy enough people in the. marketing space who have the funding of. tech billionaires to be like, "Yo, let's.

it we could be in the middle of a. marketing scop that we, you know, it's. just like what's real, what's not." I I. don't know. I I just I don't know, >> dude. I don't know either. But like this. is I think I don't know is not a bad. place to be in. Like I think that that. being sort of like. >> uh I don't know, humble enough to be. like, "Yo, I don't know if this thing's. going to take my job, but it also could. like I don't know if this is conscious, but it also could be." Instead of what. you're talking about with these people. being like [ __ ] you, there's no way that. this could be conscious or like it. definitely is. Like these positions are.

comfortable. Like that's like a nice. warm blanket of like nope could never be. conscious or like yes, my like little. chatbot is like the love of my life. Like that [ __ ] is is just us trying to. make ourselves feel better to have, you. know, stable ground. And none of this is. stable. Like get outside [clears throat]. of the AI conversation. like the the the. difference in in feeling I feel like. from uh from when I was you know like 10. to like how things I was also 10 so like. [laughter]. >> I was feeling a lot of different things. back then.

>> boners. >> but just yeah yeah yeah first boner I. think was around 10 that was that was. that talk about like transformative. experience. >> unbelievable. >> 10 to 20 was pretty much just like one. long boner [laughter]. >> pretty much honestly. >> but like that like the way that the. world the world felt like just you know. 10 years ago versus how it feels right. now. It's like we're drop the AI. conversation in general. We are living. in such a time of like not knowing. >> I think like getting more comfortable in. that space is all of our jobs. Like.

that's what I'm trying to do. And it's. [ __ ] hard. Like things changing so. fast and just. >> and especially like when I'm like trying. to figure out what I want to do and and. like what a career even might look like. >> It's got to be a [ __ ] nightmare now. I I went to so I I went to I graduated. college in 2009. >> and you know it was things were like we. had smartphones I guess look at this. [ __ ] you know you had no idea you're. being like addicted to it and like. tracked and your facial expressions. monitored and stuff but like you it was. just it was kind of you're like okay I. guess you could say the smartphone. changed the world like for sure.

>> um but I like I remember pre- smartphone. I remember pre- internet but it was like. I remember like being in college and it. was still pretty much like hey you go to. college you go to the career fair you. get a job and I remember I skipped at. the career fair. I had this weird. feeling. I was like, I'm not doing this. >> This isn't for me. >> [ __ ] sucks. I really felt like I was on. a giant conveyor belt just being like. shipped into like a box in an office and. I was going to just wither and die in. there. But the uh which sore subject I. brought that up on stage recently and. people were like [ __ ] man describing my. wife. [laughter] I'm like sorry.

But the uh but I I I had for real like a. really ser like almost like a complete. body mind rejection where I was like no. I can't that's [ __ ] that's wrong to put. people like how we keep like cows in. boxes in like lightless rooms and we eat. them. >> Yeah. [laughter]. >> Like that's wrong and you shouldn't do. that to people too. And but it's like. that's my livelihood. It's like. >> yeah it sucks. Like I feel like and I'm. not saying to be a dick. I feel bad. because I did that. I was like ah it's. terrible. Some people do like it though. But I don't know whatever. >> I get jealous of those people who can.

just sit in an office. They I see them I. see them eating lunch with their. co-workers and I'm like [ __ ] wish I. could do that, dude. That it does. There's a point where I'm like. >> you have just a giant gab billion dollar. insurance company just like here's all. your stuff. Just show up here. >> kind of pretend to work all [laughter]. day [ __ ] It's like. >> I don't know what. >> But I did that. I did that for a while. Like I'm sure you did that too. Did you. ever work an office job like that? >> I did. I I had a I had vicious panic. attacks all the time. I was [laughter] I. would literally I remember I ran I. literally like sprinted out of an office. once and was I thought I was having a.

heart attack. Dude, I remember. >> like Janu like for real had a [ __ ]. major panic attack. >> I would get I would [ __ ] sit there. like reading the communist manifesto. when I was [laughter] like 18 being like. [ __ ] this is [ __ ]. I remember I got called into like. [laughter] it was a it was a risk. management like his his job title was. called risk management. >> and uh and he called me into his office. or whatever was like at the end of the. summer I was working you know those jobs. that you don't even know what you're. [ __ ] doing. Like that was my I still. don't know. I worked an entire [ __ ]. summer there. I don't know what they.

did. They would send me to like garages. to like take pictures of signs and like. I think they were like a middleman. between like insurance companies and. like I I genuinely don't know. It's. weird. >> This dude like called me into into his. office at the end of the summer and like. [snorts] I I sit down. And he's like, "Milo, like I just want to say like this. was a great summer and I think uh I. really think that if you stick this out, you know, put in about a decade or. something, like you could be sitting. right where I am right now." And I was. like, "Oh, I'm going to [ __ ] like.

kill myself." [laughter] Like this is. this like this is what I'm training for. right now to be a risk man. Like the. least exciting thing I could have. possibly imagined. He's like, "You have. promise in this." [laughter]. >> Yeah. No, I'm telling you. I uh And. again, it's like I I always feel bad. because there's people where they're. like, "I have to do I obviously I know. this sucks, you [ __ ] [ __ ] I have. to do it." And I'm like, "I get that.". And I, you know, I got lucky in that. regard, but it's like it still sucks, dude. It's so bad. Like, and I I only. say that from direct experience. I.

remember just for real being like, "Dude, I'm going to kill myself." Like, if I And it's a terrible thing to say, but I remember being God bless you. I. will say though, the only other thing is. I didn't have kids back then. Once I had. kids, I went like, "Dude, you could drop. me off anywhere if you just give me a. [ __ ] check." For the most part, like. it would suck. Obviously, if like you're. just like, "Here, Matt, you got to go. sit in a [ __ ] cubicle.". >> Once you have kids, you're kind of like, "Whatever." Like, it's so nice to have. them. And like, as long as I can make. sure they eat, I can kind of suck that. dick if I have to. If I have to When I.

was younger, I was like, "I will suck. this dick." Now, um older, >> I got kids, I'll suck a dick. I have. [laughter] a kid. If I suck a dick, I'll. suck a dick. You know, whatever. >> Yeah, >> I'm still full packless, dude. Like, I'm. I'm out here on these mean streets, man. Just trying to make it [ __ ] happen. >> How old are you? >> I'm 25. >> 25? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're not ready. to suck that dick right now. [laughter]. >> Suck a dick, man. You go, I [ __ ] suck. a dick, man. 10 years. >> If I had to suck a [ __ ] dick, I'll. suck. It's not the end of the world. The. um Yeah. No, I I to your point, it's uh. got to be mindboggling to get out of. college now. Like, cuz I came out and.

again, it was just like you get an. office in and people still could do. that. There was still the thing like, "Hey, I went to college and now I'm not. making anything. I got ripped off." That. was like still kind of a thing, but now. it's got to be like I mean, dude, Zoom. COVID college insane. Unbelievable. That. must have been just soul crushing. >> Yeah. I mean, I like weirdly enough when. I was in college like everyone was like, "What the [ __ ] are you doing? You're a. philosophy major? Like what what's. that?". >> Apparently philosophy guys are in demand. right now with the AI stuff I've heard.

>> Oh, really? >> Yeah. Apparently that's like I don't. want to [ __ ] work for an AI company, dude. I've been I've been in the belly. of the beast for the last year. Like. it's just not. >> take the check. You can go into Silicon. Valley and just go. >> You're telling me to take the take the. check right now? >> No. How sick would it be though to go to. Silicon Valley in front of the nerd. kings and go hm Yeah. As a philosophy. major that's very interesting. [laughter] Like here's [ __ ]. >> scratch for a [ __ ] million. >> H what is what is AI? And [laughter]. they're like yeah here's $10 million. >> Just talking about Hindu gods and [ __ ]. [ __ ] Maybe I should. Dude, why am I.

struggling out here? >> Go to Peter Teal and be like. [laughter]. interesting. >> Yeah, give this guy a [ __ ] billion. dollars. >> Yeah, it's it's Well, it's hard to. predict, dude. We started a podcast 10. years ago and they were like [ __ ]. like we dude, we stunk. We were just. like too we were shitty. And I remember. this guy was like, "Never do a podcast, man. It's saturated. It's bullshit." And. then it's like, you know, thank god. Shane became super famous. But like, who. could have saw that coming? But you'll. never know until you just do a thing.

You're like you nut up and you go, I. don't know what this is going to look. like in 10 years, but I'm just going to. do this thing. It might suck. But the. the my the main thing is like. >> trying and again it's it's like so hard. to say this because it's like, you know, when I didn't have any money, all I. could think about was making money. I'm. like, I need to make [ __ ] money. But. then it's like if you can build a life. where you at least turn the dial down on. like the market mentality where it's. like yeah obviously make it get cover. your needs but like try to define.

yourself. maybe some other way than like what you. do and how much money because it's like. it's just a losing game at the end of. the day. If you look at income. distribution it's just like right up. here and if you're telling me like only. these people are happy which they're. not. Yeah. It's like what do you do when. you're here, here, here? How can you. make a life? And this is like the whole. arisatilian thing of like how can you. what is the good life for you and how. can you get it realistically? What does. that look like? And it's it's not if you. really think it's like I have a giant.

[ __ ] boat and it's like those most of. those guys are [ __ ] [ __ ]. >> Yeah. >> And it's not like you know if you have a. boat you're not a [ __ ] but it's. like if you want to be the guy who's. like I have the biggest this and that. Most of those guys aren't [ __ ] happy. because then they one day see a guy with. the newest car or whatever it is and. they go [ __ ]. >> Yeah. >> So, it's like there's got to be success. >> Yeah. Exactly. There's got to be a way. where you can do it where it's like how. do you actually and this is, you know, how do you do it's hard to do but it's. like how do you try to orient yourself. where you're like genuinely contributing.

to everyone having a slightly sicker. time including yourself rather than. being like I'm going to [ __ ] major in. this. I'm make $400,000. Yeah. Whatever. Whether that happens or not doesn't. But. I don't know. It's like as you get. older, you're just like, damn, I was. like I was so [ __ ] dumb when I was. younger. I just switched my major to. business cuz I was like, dude, I'm going. to make a 100K if I have a business. No, like no idea what I was going to do with. that or this or that. It was that was. just my thinking at the time. And it's. it's not I don't think it's very good. I. think the school should get a lot better. at like helping you figure out like try.

to do a thing that actually resonates. with you. Yeah. If you can try to take. as much as you can take the. >> you know like use money as a tool. instead of like a thing you almost like. worship and like you know it's easy for. you to it's like just I'm letting you. know man it's like I'm telling you. >> it's not a life defining thing unless. that's what you know your whole being. but it's like if you you know I don't. know whatever but. >> the AI [snorts] stuff with the job. displacement I I hope that doesn't hit. everyone real hard but if it does it's.

like it's going to be tough dude. >> Yeah it'll definitely be tough. I mean, I think like not only have we been sold. this like idea of what success is, like. what you're describing, like [ __ ]. dude on a boat with like, you know, 10. [ __ ] on their arm, like. >> we also have been so coddled like even. more than your generation. Like our. generation has grown up with like. [ __ ] just, >> you know, just like padded gloves on. with everything. And I do I was. listening to something um I think it was. actually on the [ __ ] pod the other. day where you were reading some book uh. I think it was a it was no shout out.

Notorious Peop [ __ ] the man. Um. [laughter]. uh but uh it was some book about talking. about the difference about like China. and and the US and how like it one of. was going to be Orwellian and one was. going to be like the Soma [ __ ] like sort. of how we how like our societies were. going to fall and like one was going to. be just sort of controlled into. submission with like iron fist and. that's the more China thing and then US. was going to be like coddled into. submission. >> Yeah. 1984 versus Brave New World. Yeah. Brave Brave New World was basically like.

you were going to be uh basically given. so we're going to be like sensory. overload into submission versus like. iron fist and like tamp down. >> look at what the [ __ ] is happening like. >> it's hard not to say and that's why I do. think that like keeping your circle. small to the like the best of your. ability in a certain sense of just like. getting people around you that like you. know remind you who the [ __ ] you are. like with all your warts and [ __ ] cuz. all that all that um like [snorts] the. social media stuff is all about like. cleansing and it's sort of like the.

uncanny valley thing that we were. talking about like perfect skin and like. it's all going towards this ideal of. what you like wish you you would be. perceived as versus like the people. closest to you know like that's what I. think true love is too is like seeing. someone with all their like snakes and. warts and all the [ __ ] ugly [ __ ] and. still being like no like I love that. person. >> Yeah. I I don't like the whole red flag. thing or whatever the [ __ ] it's called. What the um. >> with like dating and [ __ ]. >> Yeah. It's like that's red flag. It's. like, dude, everyone's [ __ ]. Everyone's [ __ ]. >> Like, everyone's [ __ ] you know,

[laughter]. >> you know, you can maybe there are. certain things maybe you could be like, all right, that's a little too much. But. yeah, I I agree, man. It it is uh I. don't know. I I I just, you know, I also. think for younger people like to have. all your social interactions essentially. possibly be filmed. >> Yeah. [ __ ] nuts. >> Nightmare, dude. If you'd film me back. when I was like drinking in college. >> Yeah, that was happening. Oh, I have. like I don't know how I escaped. >> We had like pictures you'd put on. Facebook, but like dude, the filming of. like just there's someone almost always.

filming everywhere. >> Yeah, it's nuts. >> At any given time. >> And that's why live like that's why so. much I'm sure you see it at your shows. and [ __ ] like that too. Maybe it's a. little different for comedy, but like. every concert I go to, it's like. everybody's stiff as a [ __ ] board and. just sitting there with their phones. out. It sucks. No one [ __ ] dances. anymore. Like. >> I don't know. We'll see what actually. happens. I hate getting into I feel like. every conversation too just has this. basin of like world's [ __ ] like. everything sucks weird dude world is not. [ __ ] like I'm here doing a podcast.

with [ __ ] Matt McCusker. [clears throat] and you know why bro. because I I did like I took a [ __ ]. risk and like I saw something that was. interesting and I worked my ass off and. like I know that's how you got here too. like there there is a way to make your. dreams come true even in this gnarly. world and. >> a year ago I was listening to this. podcast working in a restaurant like. never made a movie. And you know, not. [ __ ] patting myself on the back. What. I'm saying is like I'm not different. from anyone else. Like the only thing I. did was be like, I'm going to try this.

I'm going to try this. Like I care and. I'm going to Yeah, >> I like that a lot. Even if again, it's. like it's it's scary putting stuff out. and people can be like, you [ __ ]. suck. This is [ __ ] the dumbest [ __ ]. in the world. It's like, yeah, but don't. you don't reap any. And again, that gets. into the whole like there's certain. goods. There's certain things that are. good that are internal to doing a thing. Like if your movie made a billion. dollars as an external reward, you know, I made a billion [ __ ] bucks. But then. there's like the inner growth that. happens of like I went to the movie, I I. weathered criticism, I met people, I. talked to people, I had to confront my. idea coming back and and there's like a. thing you get that grows inside of you.

that's just like it's a benefit no one. can take away. And I don't know, I think. it's amazing. I think it's sick just. like getting out there and like [ __ ] it. I'm going to rip this thing and do it. and see what happens. >> That's what was cool about YouTube too, man. like the the barrier to entry is so. like I mean you guys have been using. that like for years now. >> YouTube rules. I love YouTube man. It's. just [ __ ] awesome. >> Yeah, it's sick. And also it's like. freedom of like it's like the most free. market of every I mean obviously you can. like pay for views and all that [ __ ] but. like dude you can watch my movie your. podcast and like some dude like putting.

burgers in his [ __ ] underwear and. like that guy will win too. Like that's. what's sick. It's like [laughter]. >> 12 million views. >> I know. all see my movie and it's like, bro, I almost killed myself making this. thing and it's like some chick like. falling off a staircase. I'm like, that. is better. Like, [laughter]. [ __ ] It's like 12 million views. Yeah, exactly. >> Well, dude, I can't thank you enough, man. I think you, you know, I'm I'm. pumped on what you're doing. I mean, obviously you're a marketing genius. I. can tell you that. >> Thank you. >> Yeah, dude. I'm I'm pumped for you, man.

>> Thank you so Thank you so much for. having me. I just quick shout out to the. whole team, the MI team like helped me. with with all of this stuff. Shout out. Hard Boys History podcast. Trench. Lizards is coming. Um, and yo, shout out. you guys. Like, I have seen so many. people that I've like listened to and. looked up to, all this stuff. Like, get. Limelight and and go off the rails. And. like, I just want to say as like one of. the dogs that has like been here for a. while, like thank you so much for just. holding it down, like keeping it real. Like, you and Shane are just as real as.

it gets. And like this podcast is the. best. And I don't know, man. It just. means a lot that like when you see a lot. of people get all that pressure. >> and and start to crumble or like morph. and stuff, it just is cool, especially. as someone who's like trying to do stuff. and put things out there to have an. example of like you don't have to. change. Like it's there's a way to do. this and like keep yourself to yourself. in a way. >> I appreciate that, man. I really do. I. think I appreciate you. No, that's a. that is a nice source of pride of not. just becoming like a freak. >> Yeah. I'm sure it's hard, bro. I'm sure. it's hard. >> I mean, yeah, it's just it not really,

honestly. >> Yeah. I'm I'm kept eternally humble. Shane's the god of my YouTube universe, dude. I just like [laughter] I'm like, dude, he's so [ __ ] sick. >> That's tight. That's. >> I can never try to flex like I'm cool. >> I guess he is just like the marshmallow. man taking all the [ __ ] like arrows. >> He's Dude, he's he's just a I'm I'm just. [ __ ] He's my son. >> Sorry for calling you Marshmallow Man, [laughter] Shane. >> He's my son, dude. He's my aura son, dude. I just go, "Oh, dude." No, it's it. really is. He's He's honestly the most. impressive on that cuz it's like he's.

like a legit celebrity. Yeah, that's. great. >> And he's literally his his his own broom. is so it's just so strong. >> Remaining a bro is tough. The world will. try to unbro you. And he's he's just his. brodom is. >> he's literally a bro statue. He's. unmovable. >> Unmovable. [laughter]. He was built for this, bro. He's built. unbelievable. >> His own line of [ __ ] [ __ ]. >> If anyone could become for real just. like kind of a [ __ ] he could he could. legitimately be like, "No, I I've earned. it. I'm going to be a little bit of a. cunt." He's too stoic of a bro. It's. unbelievable. >> That's sick, dude.

values proism. It's proismism, dude. >> Protestism. Yeah, you got to [laughter]. write that book next, dude. >> Thank you so much, my man. Appreciate. you. >> Watch new episodes of Matt and Shane. Secret podcast on Spotify. >> Do it.