Ep 620 - In Defense of Sunlight (feat. Rowan Jacobsen)

THE WILD WILD WEST. >> HEY, welcome to Matt and Shane's secret. podcast. I'm here today with Rowan. Jacobson. What's up, man? >> Hey man, I'm doing great. Happy to be. here. >> I've been awaiting this. I I If you guys. don't know, I have a little booking. service that, you know, throw me guest. ideas. I saw the sunlight book and I was. like, I got to I got to talk to you. I I. happen to be deep in uh. What is it called? Heliotherapy you call. it? Just getting in the sunlight. Yeah, I'm I'm a big sunlight guy right now. As. you can see my nose I'm like I have I'm. bad with it though. I have This is like.

3 days of sunburn on sunburn. So I just. keep going deeper and deeper into it and. uh I'll be fine, but yeah, I'm a huge. proponent of sunlight, man. It's the. best. As I was telling you I I grew up. on the East Coast, Northeast. And uh just those winters would crush. me, man. When I when I read the. beginning of your book when you're. saying how you're just like, you know, you're in Vermont and you're just like. no matter what you do in the winter up. there, you literally don't feel the sun. touch your skin. And then after I it. just makes me. like I I like I really do get like ugh.

thinking about it. And yeah, ever since. I've been down here these hot summers. I'm like. still haven't complained. Like people. are like, "Oh, it's too hot." I'm like, "You have no idea what the lack of light. feels like, man. It's horrible.". >> I think about it cuz yeah, like you say, uh those winters they're crushing, especially after a while. And yeah, down. here you're like, "Wow, you could just. be cruising around in shorts and and. shorts and a t-shirt like most of the. year essentially, right?". >> So that makes a huge difference in your. >> All year round if you're a fat white. guy, apparently. Fat white [laughter]. guys. >> Or a teenager.

I mean even in Vermont, did you see the. teenagers waiting at the bus stop? It's. like 10° below zero and they're in their. shorts. Like. >> Really? That is Yeah, that is kind of. weird. Or or they they're I I noticed with. teenagers they're either it's that. shorts when it's freezing or it's like a. hoodie when it's hot. And you're like, "What the What are you guys. Tell you guys doing?" But, you know, I. guess. it's what they do. So yeah, how long So. okay, just give me the whole thing. Like. you What is your background? Cuz I've. watched interviews with you. I would say. you're doctor smart. You sound doctor. smart. [laughter]. But I don't see that the MD or.

So, what is your background? >> I'm Yeah, no. I'm a I'm like a word guy. I've been like made my living as a. writer for Yeah, like 25-30 years. Like. started in book publishing and I did a. little bit of ghostwriting. Um and then. at some point I was like. I'm sick of this. I I don't want to fix. other people's words. I just maybe I'll. just get do my own words. >> Yeah, how did How did you I I feel like. ghostwriting's dastardly. It's like I. I'm a big co-author guy. If someone's. going to help you with your book. >> Yeah. >> hit them with the co-author. There's no. shame. I I would feel so weird. Which is.

funny cuz I would like in school cheat. on all my tests, but like writing a book. I the ghostwriting thing freaks me out. I don't like it, man. It's like just. just give that person credit if they. ghostwrite or hire them as an editor, something. But that the ghostwriter. thing is I get the heebie-jeebies around. that. >> I Yeah, totally. And sometimes I did get. credited as a co-author. Sometimes. Sometimes they didn't want my name. anywhere on there. >> Right. We won't name names. >> Yeah, I can't name those names. >> No. J.K. Rowling now. >> [laughter]. >> You wrote the Harry Potters. >> I wrote them all, actually. Like now the. world knows.

>> [laughter]. >> But no, yeah. So, that would That seems. like that would be frustrating where. you're like, "Damn it, I did the thing.". >> It was actually you know, like as a like. beginning writer, it was actually the. perfect first step because your ego was. not in it. Like you you were not going. to get recognized as a thing. So, in. terms of just like practicing your. writing, it was like. playing. >> That's nice, yeah. >> So, in retrospect, I realized that was a. good way to start cuz I was like, "Oh, this is fun. Da da da. No one's going to. know whether I screwed up or get it. right.". >> True. >> Uh but then at some point after a while.

you're like. "I think I know how to do this. I just. want to do it for myself.". >> Yeah, that's cool. So, and that started. What was your like. So, it was more so just the writing. What did you naturally gravitate towards. initially in terms of like, you know. >> subject matter? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, so it was almost random. Um I was. living in Vermont and I happened to get. a gig as a editor for this like cult. foodie magazine called The Art of. Eating. This was like early 2000s. Um. >> [clears throat]. >> And it was like it was like this a.

one-man show by this one guy who was. this like super persnickety gourmet. Uh and he was doing this really in-depth. food writing. So I I worked for the. magazine, started writing for the. magazine. Um then I got an idea out of. that to do a book about oysters. It was. like. >> I saw that you wrote a book on oysters. Dude, can you please just break it down? What do you know about [laughter] them? >> I'm I was a real oyster dude. I'm. considered one of the one of the experts. on oysters for sure. Um so I wrote the. first book that kind of like helped. trigger that oyster revolution in the. early 2000s. Texas is um Texas is coming.

on really strong with oysters. >> Dude, I yeah. There's I I just had. oysters the other night. I I love them. >> Yeah, me too. I mean, yeah. So. >> So how did you That's such a sick thing. to write a book about cuz I don't even. know what they are. Like I know they're. like a [ __ ] little weird little clam. >> sure what they are. 20 years later. >> So what do you What's like the Just can. you just blow my mind with a couple. oyster facts? Not not to put you on the. spot, but I I would just love stuff to. bust out next time I crack into some. oysters. >> Well, I mean, they're live when you eat. them. >> No, dude. [ __ ] that. What are you. talking about? >> [laughter]. >> Are they really? >> Yeah. So if the if an oyster is holding.

its shell shut if the oyster's shell is. shut, the oyster's the one holding it. shut. And it's like holding on, shell. clamped down. It's like. you know, like I hope I hope this goes. better than I think it's going to go. It's just like waiting to get back in. the water or whatever. So then you shuck. it, right? When you're you are. overcoming the oyster's resistance. Like. its muscles are pulling that thing. closed and you're cutting through its. muscle to take off that shell. And so. you just hurt it. And it's, you know, it can it's going. through the tunnel. It can see the. light, right? But it's not it hasn't. gotten to the light yet.

>> [laughter]. >> So the tunnel's just your mouth? >> Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like turns out it's. the wrong tunnel. Um. >> [laughter]. >> No. >> If you if you I like I guys who are. really good shuckers, you'll see like, you know, they're like surgeons almost. and they don't hurt the oyster too much. as they take off that shell. You can see. the oyster's heart beating and as you as. it goes down. >> What? >> Yeah. >> Hold on. So, oysters Okay, so even when. they're out of water, so they're not. like a fish where they they can only. breathe underwater like. >> They are, but they can hang on for a.

really long time, like a super long. time. >> What? >> [laughter]. >> And they have to be pretty fresh to eat. >> They have to be. Yeah, you don't want to. eat a dead oyster, for sure. I mean, unless it's cooked. If you just cooked. it, it's fine, but. >> No, no, I want that thing. I want to see. the heartbeat. I'm going to feel it on. my tongue next time. >> Well, I do think that's part of the. pleasure in it. Like you see people, you. know, you know, like. a pile of oysters appears on the table. and people go nuts. >> Oh, yeah. >> And I think it's partly because they. don't realize it, but it's because. they're eating they're getting this like. live chi, you know? And it's like. it's getting them a little excited.

>> It's like the poor man's adrenochrome. I [laughter] would say upper middle. class working upper middle class, >> It used to be the poor man's. >> Yeah, I know. So was lobsters. >> Yeah. >> Lobsters were just like they were. literally they served them in prison. >> Right, and the prisoners complained. >> I know. Well, they were picking a lot of. dead ones, too, and tossing them in. there. >> it wasn't very good lobster. >> That's Okay, so okay, so all right. I. mean, that's that's one an over deliver. on an oyster fact. >> Yeah, that was my best I played my best. card. >> they were long dead. >> No, they're they're still. kicking. And if if if they die, if their. shell's open, you don't want to serve.

them to people. They Yeah, you you trash. them. >> Wow. Well, yeah, that's Wow. So, I will. I will I will just I'll save the rest. for the oyster book. That's amazing. They're [ __ ] alive. I didn't know. that. >> Yeah. And they are delicious and they. taste different from every body of water. because they're basically concentrating. that body of water. >> Mhm. Oh, wow. Okay. And then there's the. aphrodisiac component. I've heard that. as well. That's just because you you're. eating a living thing and nothing's. hotter than that, so. >> You're also pounding the booze with. them, which doesn't hurt, right? I've. always thought that was probably part of.

it. >> [laughter]. >> God, I can't wait to tell my I'm going. to let her eat it next time and say you. know it's a thing alive. This episode is brought to you by. PrizePicks. I think I'm going to get. into soccer this summer with PrizePicks. They're offering everything from group. stage winners to goal scored, and I'm. hyped to watch the USA teach these other. countries about real football and win. money while doing it. Other than the US, nominate an official, {quote} {unquote}, Matt and Shane Secret Podcast player or. team that we're rooting for this summer.

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in lineups after you play your first $5. lineup. Yes, 50 bucks when you play your. first five. Visit the PrizePicks Promos. board for more info. PrizePicks, America's number one sports picks app. That's amazing. So, [laughter] back to. sunlight. Okay, so that makes sense. You're just. You're more so following curiosities. around the natural world. Is that a fair. So, after that, I got a reputation as a. food writer. So, then all the magazines. were coming to me and It always hap- It. always happens that way. I've I've. talked to a decent amount of people who. are like, "I don't know. I was just kind. of like doing my thing." And you know, a.

lot of writers, especially, like they'll. do a history book. Now, like people are. like, "Are you a historian?" You're. like, "Yeah, sure. Whatever." So, you. So, you get pigeonholed. And like, if. you're going to give me a pigeon-hole, that was a pretty good one. >> It's not bad, actually. >> Yeah, like better than being like the. proctology writer. >> [laughter]. >> But um so I did it for a long time, and. but I was always folding a lot of. science into my food writing, cuz I was. interested in, you know, what is this. thing that you're eating, and where. where does it where does it come from, and what makes it taste good? Um. so then at some point. um I started doing more straight-up.

science writing. >> Okay, and that's how you And then I. remember in the beginning of the book. you talking. you just started noticing this is and. this is how I guess you got interested. in the whole sunlight as like a medicine. thing. You were you were just feeling a. little. just like slacking down in those East. Coast. >> For sure, like middle age. Yeah, you. start like, you know, when you're. younger, you can sort of like you don't. notice anything. >> Yeah. I'm 40. I'm 40. My my oyster. shells being ripped open by time right. now as we speak. [laughter].

But yeah, I know what you mean. >> So yeah, I started definitely noticing. summer's good, winter's bad. And I live. in Vermont, so long long hard winters. Um. and then yeah, I was actually doing a. science fellowship at MIT. This was like. 2017 2018, and this like study came out. I came across this study um. they had realized that when sun hits. skin, it actually triggers a release of. uh. endorphins in the brain, like natural. opiates in the brain. And that's why. people kind of get addicted to sunlight.

That's why it feels good. >> Mhm. >> And like the dermatologists who did the. study were like this is why people are. addicted. This is the problem that that. people love it so much, that's why we. can't break them of their sun habits, and that, you know, they're like we. should treat this as a as like a drug. addiction, sunlight. >> Yeah. >> I was like or it means that if our. bodies are rewarding us for sunlight, there's a reason in evolutionary terms. that that came to be, right? Like. >> we were people who were seeking out.

sunlight did well in some way. >> Yeah, and that's and that's the funniest. thing about the whole sunlight as like, you know, a thing to be avoided. It it really does go back to the. dermatologist. I It's very funny to see. the dermatologist they do kind of get. crushed in the sun debate because they. have been making a whole living out of. being like, "Don't let that stuff touch. your skin.". >> They do. And to their credit, like their. job is to prevent skin cancer. So, if. that's your only thing you're trying to. do, tell people to stay out of the sun. And also it covers your ass. >> And I I have nothing against. dermatologists. You know, when I have a.

weird rash or, you know, wart, I'm glad. they're there to freeze it off me or. whatever. I will say as a you There what. there's I would say kind of sneaky about. is you don't think when you go to a. derma- a dermatologist that there's any. chance they're going to see you naked. and there's basically a 100% chance. they're going to see you. Like when you. go to a dermatologist they'll be like, "You got a wart." Like, "You want a full. body scan?" I'm like, "Sounds good.". Then I'm like, "Oh, yeah, my skin's all over my full. body." And I'm like, "All right." It's. just weird. I didn't know, you know, whatever. Anyway. But, the uh. yeah, I mean, it is. Luckily for me, I've I've I don't.

[snorts] know if this is good or bad, but a lot of stuff I remember hearing. like, "Oh, you got to stay out of the. sun." I remember just my whole life. being like, "Sounds dumb. Like, I'm not. Why would I That's crazy." Cuz I I know. too if like if I'm in the sun I'm. getting sunlight, I have like weird food. allergies, that stuff kind of lessens. Like my whole body functions 1,000%. better. >> That's interesting. So, that is So, one of the big things. sunlight does is it just tells your. immune system to relax a little bit, to. chill out. So, all those things that are. like the immune system overreacting,

like which is what allergies are, um. they get chilled out by sunlight. >> Yeah, cuz I I noticed that you know, where I was like, even like if I get a. hangover in the middle of winter, it's it's like so brutal. Whereas if I'm. like kind of in a sun-drenched. environment, it's like if I I don't. really drink that much, but if I do, I've noticed like the hangover's like. shortened I just I just I feel I need. less sleep, I eat less. It's like. That's why I was like, "Dude, I'm like. whatever, you know?" Especially with I. didn't realize skin cancer like.

it's 98% of them or 98% of the times is. pretty harmless. >> Yeah, so there's good and different. kinds. There's melanoma and then there's. what they call the BCCs and the SCCs, which is squamous cell carcinoma and. basal cell carcinoma. And yeah, like 98%. are those, the BCCs and the SCCs. That's. what everyone you know tends to get and. they just get cut off. They don't tend. to have long-term health benefits I mean. health effects if you cut them off. uh. relatively soon.

Melanoma is the bad one, but it's really. uncommon. >> Yeah, it's only 2%. >> Yeah, so what does melanoma do? Melanoma. can get invasive and then you get That's. when you got a cancer that spreads to. one of your internal organs. That's the. bad one. Um but that one's not. associated with regular doses of. sunlight actually. It's associated with. burns and especially burns in childhood, which means we're all screwed, right? >> [laughter]. >> That's the bad news. >> Wait, how do they associate that? Who. hasn't been burnt by the sun in. childhood? >> right? Um well, people with darker skin.

for one. And they have almost no risk. for melanoma. >> See, I've heard that I've heard that. people with darker skin. do have a risk for not melanoma, maybe. it's a lesser skin cancer. >> They very low rates of all the skin. cancers. They can still get them. So I. think what dermatologists are trying to. do is like some people who have dark. skin think they can't get skin cancer. and so then something pops up and they. don't get it checked. So when they do. get it checked, it tends to be at a. later stage because of the sense that I. don't have to worry about it.

So they've tried really hard to make. sure that even people with dark skin do. worry about it, which is good, but. they truly don't have a lot to worry. about. They They It's The rates are like. 100 times lower. >> Okay, so it's So it's truly lower. What about I mean, is there a world in. which dermatologists can start isolating. melanin and just give everyone melanin? >> [laughter]. >> Just a little bit. Just No, I wouldn't. pig out, but just like, you know. >> Melanin's good. Melanin's awesome. >> I know. I was reading the book.

I know. I was reading the book and I was. like, god damn it, man. I'm trying to. activate mine right now. This is the. tannest I've ever been. >> But so that's what I was going to say. Like, um, you know, 10 minutes a day, 15 minutes a day, you. will start to make a little more. melanin. And also, it will it'll move. Like, from the bottom of your skin, it'll move up to the top to be, you. know, they're they're supposed to be. like little like sun umbrellas. >> It's there to kind of like, all right, if it gets to here, I'll step in. >> It's the parasol at the beach, kind of a. thing. >> That that was the one thing from the. book that kind of blew my mind when you. were talking about, um,

the little there's like little microbes. all over your skin that kind of just. like eat sunlight and just kind of get. powered off it. That that like and then. if you get a lot of sunlight, you make. more of these microbes cuz I guess it's. like better conditions for them. No, I. had no idea about that. >> Yeah, the skin microbiome's really. important. And you know, like you we've. heard about the gut microbes that are. can be good for us or bad, depending on. which ones we have. But the skin ones. and the gut ones are like talking to. each other every day. >> Really? >> Yeah. And they're like, you know, they're. running more of the agenda than you. would think. >> I know. That's I mean, that's.

definitely, you know, if you're paranoid. about that kind of stuff, it's not good. news. You're you're covered in tiny. little bugs. Although, the fact that. they're. >> No, they're good. They're mostly good. >> They're they're good. They're eating. they're just eating sunlight and [ __ ]. protecting me. That's pretty cool. There's a. >> Yeah. There's tanning injection. injections that you can get. >> Yeah, but is it going to give me the I. want the real stuff. I don't want. >> It'll make you darker, but it increases. your chances of getting skin cancer. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Really? >> Yeah. Yeah, so I Yeah, like. >> That makes sense, actually. >> [laughter]. >> That's what you kind of what you get, honestly. That's crazy.

>> Right. The same people who are staying. out of the sun for their health are then. like plugging themselves with that. >> Oh, why? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Ah, I I I've heard the whole like like. genuinely avoid I I get it. I I can't. I'm I'm pretty fair-skinned. So, I can't have that much sunlight I I. kind of a little overindulge a little. bit, but the whole thing of like stay. out of it all together gives me the. creeps, man. I've seen and I actually. like I'm sure you know Bryan Johnson, right? Health guy. [clears throat] I. like his stuff. I like that he shares.

all the things. I can't get with him on. sunlight, man. That whole like carrying. umbrella like genuinely vamp life stay. out of the sun as much as you can. It's. like I just It's like sickly. I don't. know. It's really weird. >> Yeah, it's funny. He had a He had a post. last week where Yeah, where he listed. like here's you know for life here's my. 50 things or whatever. And one of them. was that exactly. >> Yeah. >> And all the experts I know in the sun. field were like, "Can you work on Bryan. Johnson?" He's like He's not up to speed. on this one. So.

>> Yeah, I mean it does seem like he's open. to following research which is cool, but. he's like really really anti-sun. So. >> He is and he's because he's getting the. wrong information. Like he's relying on. like the dermatologists of the world to. supply him. If he you know if he put. chat GPT on the job he he could solve. that problem. >> [laughter]. >> I mean seriously those right now we're. in this like weird little stage I think. where those AIs um. they haven't been bought yet I feel like. by any companies. They'll they'll give.

you the straight dope and they've read. freaking everything. So. Just put you. can put them on the job on this stuff. and they'll like call up like the the. key papers for you. >> Yeah. No, I I that is kind of cool. They. I use them for stuff when I'm like I'll. just get an idea where I'm like I'm. pretty sure this is how it goes and I'll. be like well let me double check cuz I. I'm like sensitive to caffeine so I try. to for some reason I don't know it's. just out of spite. I try to prove that. like coffee is actually bad for you. >> [laughter]. >> So, I'm like really feeding these things. like come on, man. Give me my argument. and it was just like no it's actually.

good for you. >> See right now they're they they're. pretty solid. I mean. >> Yeah. >> I. you got to feel like. money will be eventually be able to buy. their answers. >> about that before. I'm like this is not. going to last very long. >> It's just like the early days of the. internet was it truly was like this like. like. wild west where you could just. you know, there weren't companies that. were sort of managing it all for you. >> Yeah, no. Yeah, I cuz I was even like, well, you know, I. was trying to point to the whole thing. where alcohol was like remember when it. was like drinking have a drink a day and.

it's good for you and then it's like. complete not really true not true. whatsoever. I was like, well, a lot of the studies. on coffee are probably done by coffee. company kind of like research bodies and. it was just like, yeah, not really man. Like some are for sure but there's a lot. of independent science on coffee and I. was like, damn. It's actually is good. for you. So, I tried to ruin it for the. billions of people who enjoy coffee. >> [laughter]. >> But it turns out it's actually great. So, yeah, so on me. So, yeah, where. where do we stand now in terms of like. just a quick run through it of like.

some of the science of sunlight being. good for you, how to get it, that's why. all that stuff. >> So, basically what happened is like. 10-15 years ago uh researchers started. noticing that people who were naturally. exposed to more sunlight had. better lifespans and lower rates of like. all the classic chronic diseases. So, cancers other than skin cancer, uh heart heart attacks, strokes, all the. big stuff um was lower in people who. were getting more sunlight and they. didn't know why um but now they've.

looked into that and they're starting to. get a sense of why that is um. and I kind of put it into like three. buckets. So, one is stuff we make with. the energy from sunlight like vitamin D. Um. >> [clears throat]. >> and nitric oxide which is another uh. chemical made in the skin with sunlight. that lowers blood pressure. And blood. pressure, huge killer. >> Yeah. >> High blood pressure. So, if you're. lowering blood pressure um a few points. like globally, that's going to be a huge. impact. >> huge. I mean, nitric oxide used to sell.

it at GNC cuz you would take it and it. would like make you it like makes your. veins. >> It dilates blood vessels. Viagra is. based on nitric oxide. So, the sun, you. know, it might be nature's Viagra, too, a little bit. But um. >> It definitely is. I can attest to that. >> Well, there So there was a crazy study. Uh they. um shone light on mice and then tracked. their sexual behavior. The mice who got. the sunlight had bigger balls. Um and got a little.

were considered sexier by the other. mice. >> Really? >> Which they measure in like in terms of. like squeaking and sniffing, right? >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> And um but anyway, so yeah, there is. actually some like. a little like hint that sunlight might. actually make you a little sexier. >> Well, well, there's this stuff about I I. and again, I I just get all my stuff off. like the internet like Instagram and. stuff, but I I have heard that if you're. like if the sun hits your chest for. whatever you know, however many minutes. a day, you produce produce more. testosterone, all this stuff. >> Yeah, that's interesting. I don't I.

haven't I don't haven't seen, but it. could be. >> true, man. Well, vitamin D apparently is. a big precursor for production of. testosterone, so. >> for sure. That makes sense. >> that's pretty crazy, but that's So. that's it just started with people. noticing little things and then. >> Anti-inflammation is the other huge one, I think. Like um. Basically, the the sun, when it hits. your skin, it it's it triggers a little. bit of inflammation, like redness, right? Like. because it is it's like a challenge to. the body. It's. like the body has to deal with it. So.

the body um produces all these different. repair compounds, anti-inflammatory. compounds, fixes all the damage, and. then basically, it sends signals to the. immune system saying, "Don't freak out. We got this. This is. just normal, you know, daily life, you know, on the savanna plains of. Africa or whatever.". Um. And so the it basically that um the. response to the the slight challenge of. sunlight. triggers a strong like.

healing response by the body, which goes. beyond the skin and actually keeps. everything else kind of calm and running. smoothly. >> sense. They go check on the other things. while they're out there. They're like, all right, let's go. >> Yeah. It's like you called the fire. department. >> Yeah. They're like, let's go look. around. >> Yeah, right. They're like, what else can. we fix while we're here? >> Nice. And then and the funny thing, too, that I or something I noticed from the. book was this was like kind of accepted. as. uh. like this is kind of what you did back. during. what is it? Cholera or not cholera, um.

tuberculosis. Tuberculosis. >> Totally. Yeah. >> And what was the other one? It was. tuberculosis and there's another. >> Rickets. So, the very like so the those. two diseases got super bad in the uh. Industrial Revolution. >> Mhm. >> Tuberculosis because everyone was living. in packed, dirty cities, right? So, they. were all the germs were just spreading. much easier. Rickets is caused by lack. of sunlight um because. lack of sunlight means lack of vitamin. D, and vitamin D is what gets uh calcium.

in your bones to make them strong. >> Mhm. >> So, kids in the Industrial Revolution. when like when kids were on farms, they. got tons of sunlight. Rickets wasn't a. thing. Suddenly, rickets pops up late. 1800s cuz the kids are either working in. factories or like living in like. tenement like blocks. >> Yeah. >> Um in like places like London. They're. never seeing the sun. The cities are. also choked with coal coal smoke. Um so, suddenly all the kids are getting. rickets. And they figured out that. sunlight could cure the rickets and. could also cure like the skin form of.

tuberculosis. >> Mhm. >> So, then there it was kind of this like. beautiful era in like the '20s and '30s. when like everyone was sending their. kids up to the Alps to like ski in their. underwear in the snow. >> Yeah. >> to prevent tuberculosis. >> Yeah, I heard you talking about that. And even the teacher would sit out. there. That was that's like. >> Yeah, there's awesome photos. It's like. a Wes Anderson film kind of like that. It's like. >> Everyone in their undies chilling. getting light. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, that's uh that's pretty cool. And. the the other thing, too, that I saw. that I was uh. kind of shocked by was like it's not. even like you don't even have to be in.

that much direct sunlight. It's like if. you have you can be fully covered with. clothes, all the light's still going to. penetrate through your clothes. If you. you know that you're going to get a. bunch of like stuff from basically just. being outside. Like the one that really. blew my mind was like sitting under a. tree, if you're in the shade. the light hits the leaves and you're. getting now like green light or. something. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so there's So there's. two Yeah, so in infrared, which is part. of the spectrum that we can't see, it's. like beyond red. So our eyes can't. detect it, but it's you know, it's. photons of energy just like all the.

other visible light. It goes through clothing really easily, you know, like like visible light goes. through glass. Um and it goes through tissue pretty. easily, too. So. um. So about 50% of the sunlight is infrared. and it'll go through your clothing and. then into your body and it'll kind of. like those photons will bounce around. like billiard balls in your body. >> Mhm. >> and then eventually get absorbed and. they kind of like they make they they. help you produce energy more. efficiently. They go into your.

mitochondria. So yeah, so when you're getting all that. infrared, it's just kind of like making. your metabolism work a little better. It's it's um it's giving you free. energy. >> Yeah. >> So you get a little bit less wear and. tear trying to make energy from your. food. Um. and plants don't like infrared. Like for. photosynthesis, they just want blue and. red light. So they bounce green, which. is why they look green to us. >> Mhm. >> and they bounce infrared. So anytime you're surrounded by plants, by green leaves or grass.

that's a bunch of green photons and. infrared photons. >> bouncing off of it. >> Yeah, bouncing off the plants and into. you. So you're getting like a double. dose. You're getting it from the sun and. then you're getting it from the plants. So if you're in the shade, you're not. getting too much UV cuz you're out of. the sun, but you're getting tons of. green and infrared. And green is is. good, too. They're like doing um some. research at uh two places, Harvard and. University of Arizona right now, cuz. they found out accidentally that green. light uh relieve migraines and other. like pain.

>> What? >> And anxiety. So, yeah, you can now like you can buy. green lights uh. to to treat your migraines now. >> That's crazy. I didn't I didn't know. that. >> Yeah, yeah. So, that's that's going to. be one of the next Like red light. therapy is really big right. >> I've I've seen that stuff. >> So, green's going to be next. >> Little green. And then really you're. saying also just go outside. >> Just go outside. >> Yeah, you can just go outside. Well, that's thick. Having my red light, my green light here and actually [ __ ]. yeah, I'm getting some green right now. >> You do. You got a little green light. there. >> Green LED. I'm getting some green LED. What do you have have you ever looked. into the whole sun eater guys who claim.

to like not need food but can just kind. of stare at the sun early morning? >> so there's a bunch of those dudes in uh. Mexico at the nude beach down there. Um. Zipolite, I think it's called. Yeah. So, I have a friend who's like a mezcal. importer. He's like, "Dude, you got to. go hang out with the. with the sun eater.". >> yeah, there's these guys who are just. like like in the sun all day and they're. like, "I haven't eaten in years." Like I don't. know if I believe them, but. >> Yeah, that's what I'm always I'm always. kind of like, "All right, I can't really.

prove it cuz I'm not going to hang out. here for another year.". >> But I totally want to find out. So, um I. want to find out what their deal is. I. do have sort of like. when time frees up, I want to go. hang with the sun eaters. >> there's these dudes that are just. standing naked on the beach who claim. not to have eaten. >> [laughter]. >> [ __ ] that's kind of cool. I mean, I'd. be impressed if you could do it for 3. days. That's pretty. pretty impressive. But yeah, that I've. heard that too a long time ago that if. you look at the sun when it's when it. before it hurts your eyes, right? You. kind of catch it in the morning, catch. it as it goes down, they they claim they.

get all the energy they need. So, I don't know. Who knows? Plants do. it. What the hell, why can't we? >> It might It might be sun and cannabis. that's giving them all the energy. >> True. Yeah, true. >> [laughter]. >> So, I I The one thing I liked as well cuz. I'm a big fan of like I This is the part. where you have like a little light. primer in the book. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Whenever I get into like just the. physics on photons and lights and all. that stuff, it's honestly like the coolest not even. just cool, it's like it's like beautiful. when you read about that almost on like. a spiritual level when you're like, "Damn, this is.

This has been thought out or so I don't. know how you I Personally, it's like. it's hard to kind of argue against, you. know, kind of intelligent design when. you read about just the way light works. Like it's insane. Like I know. Well, I I I'll be curious to get the, you know, again just razzle-dazzle me. with some light facts, but the one that. I have that I had recently was that I. didn't realize sun. So, there's like the whatever hydrogen. fusion or whatever in the sun particle. fusion in the sun. >> Yeah. >> The light that's on Earth is trapped in. the sun's core for like a hundred. roughly a hundred thousand years.

>> Yeah. >> And it just just like steps down cuz. otherwise the gamma would just destroy. us. >> Exactly. >> But it stepped down for anywhere from. like fifteen thousand to a hundred. thousand years and then once it's ready, you know, it just beams in eight. seconds. >> Yeah. >> It's [ __ ] it's crazy. That's amazing. >> Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I didn't realize any. of that till I got into the book either. But so light is just pure energy, right? Um. energy without matter without mass. >> I mean, for that alone is [ __ ] up. It's like if you really get into like,

you know, what is a spirit? It's like it's. literally that. It's. >> I do think I think like and you know, you've seen like so many religions. basically have used light as a metaphor. for spirit and you do start to think. it's not maybe it's not actually a. metaphor at all, right? Like maybe light. is kind of like that divine force. >> Yeah. >> Um cuz light does time does not exist. for light, which is it gets really. cosmic. Um. >> Really? >> Yeah. So, this is like Einstein. Um. Like, you know, like if if as we if as. you we speed up closer and closer to the.

speed of light, time slows down, right? They've established that. Like the. faster you move, the slower time moves. for you. If you could actually make it. to the speed of light, which you never. could, but um. time would stop. And And for light, time. doesn't exist. It's everywhere at once. that it has ever been. And it's only. when it like. hits matter and gets absorbed into. matter that it kind of like falls into. time. >> Right? So [ __ ] sick. >> But so it seems like Yeah, so that's.

>> That's crazy. >> Like so if light is um like. light can't do anything on its own, right? Like it's pure energy. It doesn't. really interact with anything. It just. >> It's like the Silver Surfer. >> Yeah. [laughter]. >> just cruises the universe. Then when it. like hits like matter, then suddenly. it's in time and it can have like cause. and effect and that energy can start to. do stuff. So then you start to think of Earth as. like this like sort of like experiment. where like light from the sun is like. being captured and is doing stuff.

>> Yeah, that's that's pretty wild. I I was. doing the. you know, I have little kids, so I'm. constantly doing like, "Dad, what color. does this make if you mix this?". And uh it it was it seemed so dumb, but. I was like genuinely mind-blown when I. was like like what color does it green. make? And I was like, "I don't know, red and yellow." Or no, blue and yellow. And I was just like, "Damn, sunlight and. water makes green for plants." I was. just I was like, "Hold on, guys. Give me. a second. This is actually kind of. cool.". >> [laughter]. >> But yeah, that the the light stuff is.

really amazing when you get into the. physics of the the photons just like. packets of energy just moving faster. than we can even conceive. It's. literally moving faster than time, which. is like. >> Faster than time. That's a good way of. putting it. Yeah. >> Crazy. And then and then you get you. know, it just like goes into your skin. and your body's like nice and you know, use it. It's For me, that kind of stuff. really I think buttresses a, you know, spiritual worldview as opposed to one. where it's like. just all meaningless photons bouncing or. whatever particles. And I just I'm.

allergic to that worldview, so. >> Yeah, I know. That that material view. like it was kind of like right in front. of them and they missed it. Like. >> Yeah. >> But cuz yeah, the light the um all the. energy that. makes us alive, like everything that. makes us not a pile of mud. >> Yeah. >> it was light was sunlight that came to. Earth, got captured by a plant, and then either. we we got it directly from the plant or. we got it from the thing that got it. from the plant. >> Yeah. >> But it's all sunlight like passing. through, you know?

>> It's [ __ ] awesome. And so in in this book, you know, you're you're basically I. guess trying to balance out the. pervasive fear of sunlight. I I see it a. lot too and again, it's I what I like. about this isn't like cuz there's the. opposite thing where it's like just go. outside and just bake in the sun 24, which I've tried and it's just that's. not the move. I I'm again, my face. hurts. If I put anything on it, it's. it's still burning. But it's like um the message really is. like sunlight's not bad for you.

Don't pig out on it, but also like if. you're just outside even you know, protected or not, you're you're still. absorbing its benefits, you know? You. don't have to have it like kind of. radiating kind of right into your skin. all the time. >> Totally. Yeah, and I actually think that. whole like lying out on the beach for. hours thing isn't good for anyone even. if you are wearing sunblock. Like you. just you're getting you're going to get. too many too much energy too many. photons of energy that your molecules. can't handle. >> Yeah. >> It makes a lot of free radicals in the. body. Um but yeah, the the daily doses.

really good um. and basically hiding indoors all the. time clearly really bad. Uh the science. is like very clear. So that's that was. kind of where it started for me is. because we had sort of gotten to this. extreme place where. the recommendations are. never let unprotected sun touch your. body, use sunblock. 365 days a year even if you're indoors, even if you're you know, it's midwinter. Like.

that's crazy. >> That's insane. It's genuinely insane. I. feel like if you're not getting burnt, you're good. That's like in the winter, I'm not getting sunburned. I don't need. suns- I don't need sunscreen. >> Yeah, and that's what a bunch of experts. have said to me. And um. I kind of you know, tend to say like. and make sure you don't get anywhere. near burnt because it's easy to think, you know, oh, I'm good. And then at the. end of the day you're like, woo. >> Yeah. >> I'm a little pink. >> Yeah, that's trust me. It's it's every. single day. But. >> [laughter]. >> it's nice to know now that if I wear, you know, one of those long-sleeve.

lightweight shirts, um I'm still out getting my daily dose. That was my big thing. I was like, man, I don't there's something about me. I. always feel defeated if I I I see people. at the pool with like the long-sleeve. pool shirt, big brim hat, and I'm just. kind of like. [ __ ]. >> [laughter]. >> [ __ ]. But now I know you're still getting all. the benefits. >> Some of the benefits. Not not the UV, but the rest, yeah. >> But how much you So you're saying if I. got like 10 minutes of UV a day, I'm. good? >> In Texas? Yeah, I'd say I mean y'all are. blessed with some good photons.

>> Yeah. So that's all I need is 10 minutes. Dude, I'd completely I've been overdoing. it like crazy. I've been doing like an. hour. >> In winter? An hour's probably good. >> No, summer. It's like yesterday, yeah. >> an hour is a lot of down here. Your your. UV index is probably like pretty high. It's like 10, 11. >> Yeah. So do you only really need and. that's the timing seems to be a thing. I. I people have heard this before, but. it's like you have to go out. Morning is. like. the best time while as it's like the. sun's kind of coming up. >> Yeah, especially for for somewhere like. like here that you've got a lot of light. to work with. Um yeah, like an hour.

midday would probably be too much this. time of year. Um. but an hour in the morning is just. right. >> Yeah. Okay, nice. That's I cuz I have a. garden in my backyard and a lot of times. it'll be like, these plants are full sun. and I put them out in my backyard and. it's like I I've learned that full sun. doesn't always mean Texas. >> [laughter]. >> Full sun. I'm like it'll it'll wilt some. of like plants that say to be sun lovers. and I you know, so. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So that's pretty So what do you do. personally? How do How is like writing.

and researching all this stuff kind of. affected you or were you kind of on the. sun path before that? >> I was um you know, instinctively I was. like, I definitely feel better like on a. cellular level when I'm getting a fair. amount of light in my day. Um but then. once I like unfortunately, I was writing. a lot of this book in winter in Vermont. and I was kind of like, "Oh my god, >> So, you're longing for it. >> I'm destroying myself. >> [laughter]. >> Stuck in my office. Um so, I'm trying to. figure that part of of it out right now.

Like summer, perfect where I live. Winter, I'm not. going to be able to get the UV that I. that I need for sure. So, I do um. I head south. >> Yeah. [laughter]. >> There's also these um. I think what's there's a a new sort of. like a generation of um. light devices coming out that are. designed to give you uh uh a dose of UV. safely. >> Mhm. >> And I think that's going to be part of. the solution for a lot of people who. can't just like, you know, go to the.

Caribbean all winter. >> Yeah, just sit basically just stand. under that thing for like 10 minutes or. whatever. >> Yeah, and the 10 minutes is it's even. less than that. Um. but yeah, they're they're FDA cleared. First ones are just coming out now. So, yeah, I think honestly, um. like. people are going to think about their. light diet the way they think about. their food diet now in some ways. They're going to like be a little more. um intentional about what they surround. themselves with. >> Well, that's what I'm always again, for. me it's always about like what's the.

quickest and easiest and like freest. thing you can do cuz there's so many. gadgets and gizmos and you know, people. are always looking for something, you. know, people feel like I don't feel. good. What do I you just pull up your. phone and you're like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, eat whatever this powder. and whatever." But the. yeah, that's why I like the I like the. sun stuff so much cuz it like it really. really works. Like I I I can personally. attest to it. >> Yeah. >> And it's free. It's free, yeah. free. Free for everybody. >> Widely widely abundant. >> Yeah. >> And free. I. um yesterday talked to. it was actually the opposite. This is.

kind of a fire and ice week. I talked to. a an ice swimmer. >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah, a guy. Chris Ballard wrote the book wrote a. book on ice swimming and all that stuff. and. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, it's like one of the it's just. again, cold water pretty easy to come. across. You can just ice get a couple. bags of ice throw in the bathtub and. sun. And it's like those two things. alone is like. Yeah, they really set you up like, you. know, they they. and then just walk or run you're kind of. good. >> But it's actually it's actually the same. thing. Like all that stuff you know, hormesis is the term they use like the.

the exercise bros use. But any any of those things that are you. know, a test for the body but a doable. test where the body's like. I got to I got to raise my game a little. bit. >> Yeah. >> That's really good long-term. Like I. kind of think probably what makes for. really good long-term aging has more to. do with how good your body is at dealing. with like little bits of damage and. fixing it than like any particular like. nutrient or supplement you're putting. in. >> Yeah, I I think so too, man. I you know, just again, for me the big thing is just.

getting outside, being active just at. least for 30, 40 minutes a day. Like I I. don't I don't I've I've cuz I've done. both. I've done it where I've been an. indoor creature for like. 90% of the day and I I feel wretched. Like mentally, I feel horrible and then, you know, so that that's been my big. thing of like trying to avoid becoming. like human veal. That's like that's what. it's [laughter] like. >> Ooh, I might steal that phrase. >> Hey, man, take it. >> This episode is brought to you by. BetterHelp.

Summer's a lot of fun, but it can be a. lot. Summer's fun, but it can be a lot. Matt or. >> [laughter]. >> It can be a lot. >> Matt. >> Well, Matt tell me. what's one thing this summer that you. have a lot going on and what did you do? Uh did you enjoy being that busy or did. you prefer more relaxed. uh. itinerary? >> I. I enjoy the business a little bit, but I. would like some more relaxed. >> You need to relax more. >> Yeah. >> That's what I always say about you.

>> Yeah. >> People ask me, they say, "What's it like. living with him there?" I say, "God, I. wish the guy would [ __ ] relax.". >> [laughter]. >> Too much of a busybody. >> Yeah. >> I got so much going up here. >> You do. >> It's true. The police radio never turns. off. >> True. >> We do have to get you a scanner. >> Yeah. >> [laughter]. >> Oh man, actually you would have fun with. the scanner. >> Yeah? >> Yeah. >> so. >> You'd go to crimes in progress. >> [laughter]. >> I would, dude. >> You'd be feared in the city.

>> [laughter]. >> The criminals, the bad guys would go, "Oh [ __ ] it's LeMaire.". >> Yeah. This is the leverage, she's coming. >> He's going to get you. >> [laughter]. >> The leverage. He's getting low on them, fire out. So, if you're feeling overwhelmed, try. BetterHelp. [laughter]. They're one of the biggest online. therapy platforms and pretty highly. rated, too. They can connect you with a. professional therapist who can help you. understand what you need to truly enjoy. your summer. You don't have to say yes to everything. this summer. Find support in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off. betterhelp.com/mssp.

That's betterhelp.com/mssp. Now, let's get back to the show. >> Guys, real quick. Oh my god, 6/26, 6/27, I'll be at the StarDome Comedy Club, Birmingham, Alabama. That's huge. That's. major. Please come. That is June 26th, 27th, the weekend after this weekend. After Father's Day, I'll be in. Birmingham, Alabama. And then, August 7th, I'll be in August. 7th, August 8th, San Jose, California, the San Jose Improv, August 7th, August.

8th. And then, 8/13, 8/14, that's August. 13th and 14th. I'll be at the Spokane. Comedy Club, Spokane, Washington. I'll. be back for, I believe, the second or. third time. >> Yay! >> Jeez. >> Yes, come please come see me. I'm going. to be in Virginia next week. Alexandria, Virginia the 24th, Charlottesville, Virginia the 25th, Cozzy's Comedy Club in Newport News the. 28th, and on the 27th I'll be in. Columbia, South Carolina. So, please. come out to those shows. And you know. where I'll be on June 23rd?

>> Optimum Knockers. >> Yes, here in Austin, Texas at the Creek. and the Cave. >> Yes. >> Panties in the mail. >> I'm Joe. >> [laughter]. >> But yeah, the. that I've I've get that I've I've gotten. to that point many times in my life and. it's just God, I feel terrible. And. there's just something about you know, especially when you're structuring your. time and day and like what am I doing? Why am I doing it? It's like there there. is especially the older I get, it's like. just getting outside every day is it's.

like important. Like you really really. need to do it. Otherwise, you get kind. of cut off from like what the world. actually is. >> Yeah. >> stuck in the like the internet and your. house and you know, all your [ __ ]. and it's like. It kind of it kind of I I get freaked. out about how. real, I should say, or how do I say. this? The internet is like a substitute for. actual physical reality. I feel like. it's getting more and more kind of. pervasive where we're putting more. importance on the internet and it's like. just the world basically outside. >> Yeah, this is the thing I think about.

all the time. >> Yeah, kind of freaks me out. >> Yeah, we're transforming into something. different than we used to be. >> Dude, I I've you know, I get I get a. hard wake up I get hard wake up calls. with it all the time cuz it's like. you know, I'm online. I I do a lot of. stuff online. I'm always promoting. stuff. And then there's like there's. like you have part of your identity on. the internet and you're going like, "What do people think about me?" And you. go, "Okay, mostly negative. Fuck." And. then like. >> [laughter]. >> So, you're like really pulled in and. you're like, "Damn, you know." So, I'm. like I find myself trying to like. mitigate this playing this like game. layered on top of my actual life and it. just gets like so stressful. But the.

whole point is every now and again I'll. be like. "Oh yeah, it doesn't matter." Like that. stuff genuinely doesn't matter in terms. of like, you know, I have a family and I. you know, I There's like real physical. beings around me, but you're like. clouded by this kind of just. you know, digital kind of thing and it's. just man I I the more the less I kind of. engage with it the genuine like the. better I feel and it it helps to be like. I'm just going to go outside. I'm going. to do this. I'm going to do that and. it's like. It's like a spider web. You I mean I. mean. >> It'll trap you. >> Yeah, it's very bad, man. I don't know.

I It's very bad and the worst part is I. feel like. the internet gives you almost like. it almost puts everybody uh how do I say. this? Like before like you know, if you. were in the 80s and 70s and you were you. were you know, a construction worker. there was no. part of you that even considered that. you could one day be famous for some It. was just wasn't your like no, I'll never. That's not a thing. You have to be an. entertainer. The internet I feel like. it's thrown every single person into the. the game where it's like hey man, yeah, you knows man. You could you could. And.

I I just I do feel like it has. >> Totally. >> not good effects. >> Cuz I had a funny um just in the past 12. hours funny experience with all that. Um. so my book came out yesterday, right? Huge wave of media attention. So like. suddenly like interview requests are. pouring down on me. So I had said to my. a friend of mine uh who's like pretty. website savvy. I was like can you tweak. my my my website looks a little crappy. right now. Could you just tweak it for. me? Make make it look a little better. She's like sure. Um.

At 1:00 a.m. last night I got a a text. from her. She's like. I broke your website. >> [laughter]. >> She's like I can't fix it. I'm so sorry. It's down. Apparently like some recovery. link went to some administrator email. I. don't know we don't know who it So I was. like okay. Like the day that my. website's going to get the most hits. ever, it's down. >> [ __ ] This is yesterday? >> This was the day 1:00 a.m. like a few. hours ago.

>> Man. >> Okay. Like this is a good test of your. zen ability, right? >> It is, man. That's the Did you say zen. ability? >> Yeah. >> Zen ability is a highly overrated skill, man. You really need it to be like, well, [ __ ]. >> Yeah. >> All right. What are we going to do now? I'm not There's There is this part of. your mind that's like. It's almost like delicious when you're. like, yeah, I get to [ __ ] freak out. right now. And you're like, you have to. be like, not even going down that path. >> Yeah. But so as as you were saying, it's. like, okay, maybe it wasn't that. important after all, you know? >> Yeah. So, what did you get it fixed? >> No, it's down.

>> [laughter]. >> I'm just ignoring. >> [clears throat]. >> I can't do anything about it. >> That's the thing, man. Yeah, you really. can't. It's like, [ __ ] I mean, uh [ __ ] Yeah, that must have been. really stressful. [laughter]. >> That was at 1:00 a.m. I'm like, okay, there goes the sleep for the night. >> Well, [ __ ] I'm sorry to hear that. But. I again, it's one of those things where. >> Right. >> I don't know. It'll get fixed, and then. it is what it is. When I When I did my. last comedy special, I. uh I had two shows on Friday, two shows. Saturday, and I was going to just, you.

know, see which was the best show out of. all four. You have a lot of chances to. get it right, basically. So, I had four. chances to do it. First night, shows. were good, but I was like, I didn't feel. like that was the one. Saturday, I'm like, all right, I got two. more chances, feeling good about it. Uh that morning, yeah, it was that morning of the show. Saturday, I had to film something for. the intro. So, I had to wear this kind. of like camera rig thing on me. It was. like a POV. And I leaned forward too. fast, and it just the the camera thing. put up like literally cut my head. It. was bleeding for hours.

But then the problem was, now I couldn't. splice if I had like a great If I had. like a good take from one, so those two. others were rendered mute. Where I was. like, I can't use these. So, now and. then I remember there were just like a. bunch of people there just putting on. makeup on my head, camera, different. light. And they went back and forth. maybe 15 times. It was like a collective. freak out for an hour and a half right. before I was about to go on. And I just. remember being like, guys, just stop. It's okay. I appreciate. you working hard, but like, it is what. it is. It's It's like, we're just going. to deal with it and figure it out. There's Let's all just stop freaking out.

and just move on cuz you can really get. caught in that like. anxiety freak out loop. We We could. [clears throat] have stayed in it up. until the minute I walked out on stage. and I remember just being like, "Fuck it, guys. Let's just do it. Who. cares? Who cares? Who cares?" Yeah. And. it went great. It was fine. I remember it almost for me it was kind. of freeing to be like, I It's just like I was like that's what. I Whenever I try to take anything. remotely serious, I tend to get. reminders just from like circumstance. where it's just kind of like, "Dude, shut up. Just go do your thing." So.

>> Right. >> That was That was a I remember just kind. of laughing being like, "Of course I. [ __ ] smacked my head on a camera. today. This is This is kind of more This. is just what I do.". >> Yeah. A friend of mine who's a. photographer for the New York Times, um. so he's had a pretty good career, but at. some point he's kind of like, "This is. Who cares, right?". >> Yeah. >> So he just He has this thing he says. whenever anything comes up, he's like, "Just remember, we are animals and we made this all up.". >> [laughter]. >> That's a great line. >> handy, you know?

>> [gasps]. >> Damn, that's amazing, actually. That's really good. I'm going to use. that on my wife. >> [laughter]. >> Right. So it So it can backfire. [clears throat] on you. >> Yeah, when she freaks out, like, "We are. just animals. We're making it all up.". So. >> [laughter]. >> Let's just do what animals do, babe. How. about you forget about that? So, what um So, what's next for you, man? Are you So, you're on you're on the. big you're on the book tour, moving. around. What do you What do you got on. the horizon? What do you What are you. thinking about doing? >> So, I am um a couple of things. I'm.

trying to decide which way to go. I'm. waiting for a sign, right? Um so one of. them is kind of what we were talking. about. Like, the more you think about. light, then you start thinking about. energy, and you start thinking about us. as, you know, rather than just like. piles of molecules, we're basically like. this flow of energy, like like a. standing wave of energy in a sense. Um. and does have like this spiritual aspect. to it. And there's some really. interesting new science coming out. around that. It's like hard science, but. I think there could be a really fun. just like easy mainstream book about. that concept. >> So, you're going quantum, you're.

thinking? >> Exactly. Yeah. >> Now's the time. >> thinking the title could be could be. quantum me, right? And I could just. experiment self-experiment. >> I mean, I I'm I'm no stranger to like. the just a lot of different spirituality. books and stuff, and a lot of them tend. to. just dabble. They a lot of them they. borrow from quantum elements to be like, "Hey, you know, >> That'll be you and me, too. >> two places at once, you know?" And. you're like, "What the [ __ ] You're. serious?". >> Totally, the entanglement stuff. That. you can apply that to so many different. things in life.

>> sneakily researching. quantum basically just quantum property. Is it quantum or is it more just like. your body as a non-physical. or energy, whatever? >> it's all quantum mechanics cuz like down. at that basic subatomic level, it's all. about electrons and photons interacting. >> Mhm. >> Um. and you know, for the physicists, they. figured this out 100 years ago that like. energy and matter are like two sides of. the same coin. Biologists like. learned this yesterday, it seems. Like.

they missed it for 100 years, but now. they're like, "Oh, we need to think about magnetism. and energy and how all these things like. change the stuff that we are." So, >> Yeah. >> it's hard stuff, but it's um but that's. why I think there's like the light. version of it would be could make a. really good book. >> That is cool. >> Yeah. But then the other thing, when you're you know, a bit of a. contrarian and you write a contrarian. book and everyone's like, "You're an idiot. You're so wrong." And. you're like, "I might be wrong, but I might not be. wrong.". >> Yeah. >> Um and then you have to try to figure. out, "How do I know if I'm wrong or.

not?" So, anyway, I think it'd be really. fun to write a book, and this would be a. book I think 99% audience would be. dudes. It would be the title would be. Yeah. >> [laughter]. >> This is a very dude heavy podcast. >> When you are when you are right and. everyone else is wrong, right? That'd be. the title. >> That's great. >> Like a field guide to unrecognized. genius. >> But perfect. >> It would be tongue-in-cheek. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Here's how to know if you are a genius. or if you're just. entirely wrong. >> How would you how would how would you.

summarize that then? Cuz there's a lot. of people who have been right that a lot. of other people, you know what I mean? Like a lot of the advanced like germ. theory is the biggest one or one of the. biggest. >> no, that's one of the best examples. >> died in insane asylum. >> So many of them that they got it right. No one ever recognized them. So I was. yeah, and and they often killed. themselves. >> on them. Like actively [ __ ] on them to. the point where they and they end up. killing themselves. The. God, who's the guy. Gödel, the mathematician? Starved. himself to death. Yeah. He apparently, and I still I've tried to read about it.

a million times, but he proved that. math, the axioms mathematics were. founded upon. contradicted the mathematics themselves, which just like they wanted they wanted. math to be this like concrete physical. reality that like they they wanted to. take it almost away from like they. didn't want anything kind of like airy. about it. Like no, this is a hard. physical science, and he kind of out of. nowhere was like, yeah, no, it's not. And proved it using their own axioms. And then they're like, [ __ ] you, dude. And he just he starved himself to death.

He's like, but apparently everyone's. like, yeah, [ __ ] he was right. >> It sucks to be the the guy who's right. but totally ostracized for it. Like. >> Yeah. >> Couldn't be worse. But anyway, so yeah, so part of it would be looking at all. those examples through history. And like. can we recognize a pattern so we can. start getting better at recognizing. these people? >> Yeah. >> Um and then on the flip side would be. like. how do we how do we tell when you're. full of [ __ ] Like. how do you tell when you're full of. [ __ ]. >> Well, the fun flip side is just going. through the there's I mean there's got. to be no shortage of people who are. like, I got this. And then it just.

turned out they're 1 million percent. >> Almost always right. >> And we're [laughter] almost always. wrong. >> Right. So that's the thing. How do you. So is there a better faster way of. figuring out. >> Figuring out you're wrong. >> Yeah. Well, except for that one time. when you actually did get it right. >> Yeah, and that that the problem too is. that cuz I've seen I forget what I was. watching, but I was watching. uh not even a debate. People were just. like talking in one of those YouTube. videos where they they kind of reference. that whole thing about how like. everything we know now will be wrong for. the most part and you know and how do we. kind of accelerate that or factor that. in? It's like you really can't. You just.

have to like wait till you definitely. know you're wrong and be like, all. right. >> See, so that's what I'm wondering. Is. there a better, you know, a better algorithm? >> Yeah. >> Also, it would just be, you know, fun. like all, you know, your uncle who is. certain that he's always always right. It's a good gift for the uncle. >> Yeah, that that would be a that actually. just the title alone. They'll probably. be like, yep, put it down. >> a beach read for dudes, right? [laughter]. >> Yeah, I remember uh I mean it's it's. slightly related, but I I grew up doing. construction like a lot of family family.

construction businesses. And uh I I. remember my my job this one time was. like I had to run a tamper and compact. dirt and gravel. I had to get I think it. was like a 97% compaction rate. That's. what I needed. So, I'm going over like. 93, 92, 95. And my a lot of my uncles are just, you. know, done construction for a long time. So, like there's a thing with. construction workers and engineers where. construction workers will be like, you don't know [ __ ] man. Like they do. it every time. Like you [ __ ] you. don't know you you couldn't possibly use.

your book smarts to like, you know, your. blueprints are wrong. There's like. there's always they're always going back. and forth. So, this is just this young kid. He was. a he was the engineer, probably intern. And he's just he had a every time I. would compact it, he had to stick this. probe down into it and measure the. compaction rate. I remember my uncle just stood over him. the whole time and be like, so dumb. What are you doing? And then it. was it was kind of just like going back. and forth. And eventually, I remember. him be like, you're never going to get. 97. Just like he was like, I know for a. fact you're never going to get 97. And.

then I remember I ran the tamper like. backwards across the thing. And then we. ended up getting 97. He was just like, that thing's dumb. I. >> [laughter]. >> All right. But there's The point is that. yeah, as you get older, there's a I I. would say. almost a sexual pleasure in being right. >> I I'm telling you, dude. All of my my. dads If you talk to my dads or any of my. uncles, huge chance they're going to hit you. with a story about a time they were. right and the other guy was wrong and. it's just it's just a 5-minute story. where in the end they're like, "Yes, oh. yeah, I was [ __ ] right." So. >> Absolutely. It's a guy thing.

>> It is. >> Um. >> It's awesome. Telling a story about a. time you were right is. >> [laughter]. >> like it's a fun. >> It's such an insane premise. Right. Right. But yeah, so yeah, you just you. want to be the one who bucked all the. idiots and got proven. like in instinctually right somehow. But. it's Those people are rarer than. >> You got to be alive for it. That's the. thing that kills me. I always read about. these guys that like I always think of. Emerson. He was out in the woods just writing. about stuff. Everyone's like, "What a. [ __ ] dumbass.". >> [laughter]. >> Like this is the worst guy ever. And. then it just just 200 years later or.

whatever, they're like, "That's That's. guy's a genius.". >> And almost all of the like the geniuses. are told they're wrong. So, it's like, how can we spot those guys faster? >> I don't think you can cuz I feel like. once you even start looking for it and. you're like, "Yeah, we're It'll just be. more just my It'll just be more group. think." And then it'll be a fake genius. and. >> So, group think it yeah, basically it's. like I like I hate group think. >> Yeah. >> I absolutely [ __ ] hate it. Um. and you see it everywhere. You see it. scientific institutions are some like. the worst examples of group think. >> Yeah. >> You know?

>> No, it's it's it's really bad. I I mean. I I luckily It was like a cool. experience. I don't know if I really did. anything with it, but I got to go back. to school in my 30s. I went back, I got. a master's in social work, which was. like, you know, I would say savior. 50 grand, whatever. But the. >> [laughter]. >> It's just just dude dude, anyone anyone. You can go get one. Anyone can get one. You can go get a master's in social work. if you're basic. It's. whatever. But I remember just as an. adult going back to school and really. seeing those dynamics at play in terms.

of group think where it's like. it'd be a question that you could. literally say anything and they'd be. like, "Huh, I've never considered" like. they they would never it wasn't like. biology they're like, "Wrong." And I I. just. >> Yeah. >> nobody would raise their hands ever like. ever. And it'd be like just to there. were certain, you know, things that if. you said the place would spaz and like I. just I I just watched in real time. people just be like, "I'm just going to. just agree and just get along." And uh. yeah, it's kind of terrifying when you. think about it. I would say. 85% of people it might be even 90 would.

just be like, "I don't even don't even. bother me with thinking. I just I just. want everyone to be cool and I'm just. going to just sit back and chill and let. people dictate what's going on for me.". >> Yeah. [clears throat] And the internet. and AI like it it becomes harder to be. an outlier. Like. it'll find the group will find you now. Like it's harder to escape the group. than it used to be. >> Yeah, I can see that. >> So did the those uh. social work skills so do you use those. for. for stand-up, for interviews, do you use. those in your daily life? It was it. useful that way?

>> what it was useful for? I I had I was. like about to have a kid um. right when I went to social work school. and I got like there while there I got. definitive proof that you're not. supposed to leave your kid in the crib. to cry it out. That's like that common. folk wisdom like let them cry it out, they'll be fine. They're like, "That's. bad. It doesn't work. And just like. definitely don't hit your kids if you. can help it." And I remember just being. like, "All right, those are two actually. decent facts that I have, you know, on. the record." Cuz you you hear it all the. time they're like, "They'll be fine. Let. them cry it out." And you know, I.

And I I you know, if I had to like tap. into my collective wisdom of like family. and friends they'd be like, "Yeah, it's. totally fine." And then you. remember at school they're like, "No, that's just the baby giving up." And. you're like, "Fuck, that's so sad. God. [laughter] damn, that's so sad.". So I was equipped with that. I remember. those sleepless nights being like, "We. can't let them cry it out.". >> Same here. Like it it is hard [snorts]. to hear that. Like. >> Oh. >> every instinct in your body is like go. rescue that kid. >> Yeah, and you can do like 2 minutes here. and there, but when they're just like.

let them do it. It's It's just like, yeah, it's not It's not good. Not a good. thing. So, I got that from it. >> Glad to hear that. >> Yeah, thank you. And then I I also for. me it was just cool where I was like. It's just like a personal thing where I. I remember being like, "Oh, these are. like This is a master's program." I. thought I was going to be around like. literal geniuses cuz I was like, "Master, this is like a step away from. doctors." And like doctors are, you. know. And I It was for me it was kind of. like a peek behind the curtain where I. was like. "Okay, academia is not the uh, you know, it's There's a lot of smart people. obviously in different fields doing a. lot of stuff." And even in that field,

I'm sure. But I remember thinking like, "Oh, it's like a. It's like a self-limiting belief kind of. thing where I was like, "I couldn't. possibly hang around, you know." I I was. thinking it was like. I don't know. I just thought people. would be like. brilliant beyond belief. And it's like, "No, a lot of these people at the. the top of certain things are. There's There's some very, very smart. people, but a lot of them are just. pretty normal, too. And it's, you know, so. For me it was kind of like, "Oh, you. can kind of You can do anything.". >> Yeah, I've had that experience a few. times, too. I kind of feel like like the. process of maturity and adulthood is.

just getting to each stage and going. like. "Oh, everyone here is just as dumb as I. am, right?" [laughter]. So, I may as well do this stuff cuz like. >> That was the That you just summed up my. answer. It was ever I was like, "Okay, so everyone's pretty [ __ ] dumb, too. That's good." I thought I was. >> Right. >> I was going to be around like perfect. people. And then it was just like, "Yeah, no, this is This is a mess. This. is a [ __ ] mess.". >> "Oh, nope. Not here, either.". >> [laughter]. >> It's every every rock I lift, I go, "Yeah, a bunch of idiots. More idiots, great.".

>> [laughter]. >> Yeah. >> So, but no, man. I'm excited for you. I. I can't wait to I'm going to finish. this. I I cracked into it last night. And I highly recommend In Defense of. Sunlight. It's uh. Again, I like the cold water stuff, too. I'm big on the cold and it's, you know, almost like. people can watch it online and they're. like, "Oh, more stuff about" It's like, "Just try it." That's the big thing. It's like, "Actually try it." It's. simple I think to put into place and. I don't know. There's no downside. It's. like go outside. Now now for me it's. like. I can be outside in the shade and I'm.

thinking about little green photons. hitting my skin. Amazing. I'm going, "Yeah, I am [ __ ]. peaceful now. This is this stuff works.". And so I think this is a great book. I. appreciate you writing it. Is there. anything else you have to say? Any more. razzle-dazzle facts or insights? I mean the oyster [ __ ] killed me. I I. can't wait I can't wait. to talk about. that. >> Um all right. I can this is a terrible. thing to leave everyone with but uh I. was just looking at a bunch of studies. showing that citrus consumption raises. your risk of skin cancer.

>> Okay, hold on. I saw that. So uh I saw. there was in the attached emails. I. thought they were like talking points. and I read it and I'm like, "What the. [ __ ] I can't I can't understand the god. damn stuff." So they were saying citrus. >> Yeah. >> What? >> Yeah. >> I skimmed it being like he's probably. just saying citrus is good for you. So. citrus is linked to skin cancer. >> It's linked to skin skin cancer by. multiple studies. >> So what do you what do you take from. that? >> I eat fewer grapefruits these days. >> Really? >> That's what I take from it. >> What? >> It's the combination. Yeah, if I'm going. to now I'm going to get a bunch of sun I.

won't eat like a grapefruit that. >> Dude, I just planted a lime and lemon. tree and kumquats. >> There's this thing called margarita burn. that like. it's well known. Like people go you know. >> Really? >> they go to the tropics and pound the. margaritas and then they get extra fried. the next day. >> What? From all the citrus? >> From all the citrus. >> Yeah, but then if you don't have this. vitamin C you get scurvy. >> All right. Right. It'll keep you from. scurvy. >> Okay, but you're saying. >> You won't get you definitely won't get. scurvy. >> That's good. But they're saying vitamin. C can with sun can.

>> It's not the vitamin C. It's this thing. called soralens that are in the citrus. >> Oh. [ __ ]. >> Yeah. >> That sucks. >> I think I think a little is fine but. don't don't pound that whole bag of. oranges maybe. >> I'm dude, look, I'll I'll be honest, I'm. not worried about skin cancer. I'm. really not. I just doesn't seem like. that big of a deal. >> Not many people die of skin cancer. >> That's what I'm saying. Like you get all. the other cancers are you die so much. more frequently.

>> Yeah, colon cancer, breast cancer. >> Bad. >> Those are bad. Lung cancer, the biggie. >> Eesh, that'd be terrible. Yeah, my dad. has skin cancer. They just like blasted. his face with lasers. >> Yeah. >> They're we were calling him Michael. Jackson for a while. >> Yeah, I mean it's not it's no fun. We. shouldn't. >> fun, but. >> downplay it too much. >> But. >> I mean, I'm going to downplay it. I'll. be honest. >> He's downplaying it. He's. >> [laughter]. >> Yeah, you're not allowed. >> I'm going to [ __ ] downplay it. I get. white spots on me every now and again. I. go, yeah, photons, who gives a [ __ ] Let. them [ __ ] in there. >> [laughter]. >> I'll heal it up. They'll have a I always. tell myself, by the time I need to.

they'll have a cure for that. I'll be. fine. >> [laughter]. [gasps]. >> Well, dude, I hope your website gets. back in order. Um. and I appreciate the insight the that. thing of just us we're animals. We made. all this stuff up is that's my new. mantra, honestly. That's the best. >> [laughter]. >> Well, thanks for having me. This was uh. really. >> it. All right. >> Watch new episodes of Matt and Shane's. Secret Podcast on Spotify. >> Do it.