Ep 616 - The Four Heavens (feat. David Stuart)

THE WOW-WOW WEST. All right, we're live. David Stuart, thank you for coming, man. Thanks for having me. I'm pumped, man. I've never met an archaeologist before. Well, yeah, it's a fun job, I got to. say. Do you like it? Playing in the. dirt. Absolutely, I love it. I I when I. was a kid, I decided that was what I. wanted to do, you know, and and luck I'm. really lucky because I can do it as a, you know, grown up. >> Yeah. And your parents are both. archaeologists, too. Yeah, my my dad and my mom were were. both archaeologists and worked for.

National Geographic in the magazine, you. know, back in the heyday of all of that. So, you know, they took us on trips, me. and my my brothers and sister. Um, you know, that's how I got exposed. to this stuff was like going to, you know, Mexico and Guatemala, you. know, back in the '70s, Mhm. getting. getting exposed to these fantastic ruins. before they were turned into big tourist. sites, Yeah. >> sometimes, right? And I just caught the bug. I mean, I. just wanted to know more about it and.

and seeing what my dad was doing, what. my mom was doing, I just. wanted to keep on with that, so. Nice. Yeah, I mean, we uh by the way, too, we. have we have Val with us here today. Josh couldn't make it. The Josh is. actually getting, I believe, a. colonoscopy. Very important, yeah. >> Someone's doing some Someone's doing. some excavating in uh in his butt. Other. areas. He's asleep right now. Someone's. looking for secrets in his butt. >> [laughter]. >> Deciphering the text. Um, that's pretty. cool, though, man. So, like, you know, and and re- from reading your book, by. the way, the the four heavens, I have it.

right here. History of the new history a. new history of the ancient Maya, not the. old, not the BS from before. That's. right. Yeah. But, from reading your. book, it was like, back I guess when. your dad was doing it, it was kind of amazing. I didn't realize. how much of, you know, their history was. completely unknown and lost and there I. guess there was like little bits and. pieces. That kind of struck me about how. people were just like, even the people. who lived there were just like, "I don't. know.". Like no one really knew. >> and this is still kind of the case in.

terms of people's awareness, right? So, I think it's fair to say it's new in in. terms of not being out there in the. public arena. Mhm. And certainly in in. Mexico, you know, there are plenty of Maya. people around today, but they don't have. much of a sense of their own history. Yeah. And and that I find that really. sad and something that needs to be fixed. and corrected. So, there's a Spanish. edition coming out, you know, and I I. hope word gets out about this stuff and. it gets into the schools and everything,

but you're right. Um. when when my dad was, you know, an. archaeologist and and working in Maya. ruins, um when I was a kid, there was no. history. You know, so we've we've been through. this amazing time in the last 50 years. where we've kind of gone from zero to. 100 in terms of knowing. the names of kings and knowing the. dynasties and how they all, you know, kind of Game of Thrones history of of. all these different kingdoms. Um and.

it's the oldest history anywhere in the. Americas, which is pretty mind-boggling. That's that's that's also crazy cuz. like, you know, you you always see stuff. and you like I don't know, I always hear. things on like TV and YouTube where it's. like some claim they go back to like 60. million year, you know, something like. crazy. Cuz I mean that must have really. chapped your ass watching Ancient Aliens. back in the day. Did you like that show? Uh. you know, I've been asked to be on that. show several times. >> Really? And. >> You wouldn't play ball about the outer. space travel or what? What was the.

problem? >> Well, the thing is I I know from. experience that um well, I should say I. that show to me is just nonsense. Really? >> Uh the the real human story of these. places and and the monuments is I think. the real story that that's it just as. compelling. But um. yeah, I mean I I was invited to be on a. few of those shows, and what what I. realized. from a long time ago is that when you. get interviewed for a show like that as. an. as an expert, quote unquote.

>> Yeah. >> [clears throat]. >> Um of course you have no control over. how they're going to edit it or how. they're going to display what you say or. chop you up or whatever. >> actually. You spend your whole life. trying to be like a credible Yeah, so. I've actually had friends and colleagues. who, you know, say, "Yeah, I'll do that. Sure." You know, I kind of get that, right? You want to You want to be out. there and talk, but then they just kind. of, you know, manipulate whatever you're. going to say, you know, for their for. their narrative, right? But yeah, I mean as as as someone who. studies the Maya and has been around the. people, has been around these amazing.

sites in in Mexico and Guatemala and. Belize, you know, the the the whole ancient. aliens narrative, um it's coming from another place. It's. coming from our, you know, kind of background and trying. to struggle how to explain these places. That's an old struggle that goes back. hundreds of years, actually. But. the thing is now we have the history. This is what people don't realize. We We. We have the names of the people who. built these monuments. They're not.

aliens. They're They're people, right? And they're doing the same stuff we do, and they have the same concerns we do. Yeah, that was kind of cool cuz it. really goes from what you guys have. found, it goes almost back Oh, I guess. further back or about the same as like. as we know about ancient Greece. Like it. goes like. What do you say, like 200 AD? I think. like earlier or. >> written history we have goes back to. about Not quite as far as ancient, you. know, classical Greece, but. let's say to about 300, 200 AD. Okay. >> It's pretty far back. I mean, that's.

1,200 years before Columbus. And. the archaeology goes back further than. that in terms of seeing what people are. doing on the ground and, you know, tracking how they develop over time. So, we we hit the story kind of. midstream in terms of being able to read. about what they're writing about. >> Mhm. Um what's preserved. And and that's where we have to kind of. fill in the blanks in terms of. you know, stuff they didn't write about. You know, maybe they didn't write about.

>> [snorts]. >> uh their their economic situation and. they didn't write about, you know, what. was going on in their world beyond just. the. the the the aristocrats. They were the. ones who were writing, right? And the. ones who were literate. So, it it's what. we have. I think it's super exciting, but it's not the whole picture. Yeah, and then and you know, I guess. there was the uh I I didn't I've like. heard about this guy Diego de Landa. Right. Who burnt all the books. Yep. Yep. I mean, did you ever just like sit. at night and like just kind of cur- Like. did you ever really get mad at that guy. cuz he kind of did like ruin the whole.

thing? >> He he ruined a lot. Yeah, so so this guy. he was a Franciscan friar who he later. became the bishop of Yucatan back in the. 16th century. And he um. You know, he's vilified because he burnt a lot of. the Maya books and and smashed their. their, you know, what do you call the. idols and so forth and. uh he caused a lot of damage. In a way. he was doing his job at the time. And.

that's what they were there for. Um. we've lost a lot of culture and a lot of. history. indigenous culture because of that. But. there's one thing I will say about. Landa. He was. in a way a curious. figure. He he was curious about the. stuff he was trying to stamp out. Mhm. Which sounds a little weird, but he he. wrote this book. that is basically a compilation of facts.

about the world of the Maya before the. Spanish ever arrived. I have that book. in my house. I just like happened I. didn't, you know, I was funny when I was. reading your book. I'm like, "Oh, I have. that." I read like a little bit of it. Yeah. Yeah. And uh yeah, he does kind of. does strike you as he was like. recounting whatever history he had or. whatever he said. >> talking to people and he was getting the. these are unique accounts that we have. And and and without his book, this manuscript that was just found. randomly back in the 1800s, you know, in. a in a library in Spain, without Landa's.

book, we'd be really up a creek in terms. of understanding the Maya. So So I have. to give him some credit despite the fact. that he did a lot of. damage at the time like most Spanish. priests of that era, it was this. kind of give and take. I mean, they were. trying to stamp out the the idolatry, the non-Catholic, you know, rituals they. were seeing. But they were they were almost like um. anthropologists of their time. They were. they were writing down stuff that.

otherwise would just be lost. And what. And what was like the uh was I I I. remember I read about Cortez and the. Aztecs and there was like the ritual. human sacrifice. Was that the Mayans? Was that kind of like. >> They did some of that. >> Yeah. Maybe not on the scale of the. Aztecs or at least on the scale of what. the Spanish talk about for the Aztecs. Some of that's exaggerated. >> Yeah, I've heard that. Um but but. sacrifice was real. It was part of their. in Mesoamerica in general, um we we. study that, we acknowledge it. Um one of.

the things about sacrifice that's hard. for us to think about is that. and here I'm kind of thinking about. examples that I have come across in my. own research. You know, for the Maya for example, there were ritual. like executions of of war captives. And that's kind of cross-cultural. I. mean, we call that sacrifice. Yeah. But. it's like a Roman gladiator, you know, arena. Yeah. >> Or or, you know, which is very like. performative and very ritualized, but.

it's a way of kind of. dealing with your enemies and your. captives and in this kind of. this way of going about executing them, right? >> Yeah, that I mean that's like pretty I I. would say that's pretty common. I mean. even the Spanish were like cutting. people's heads off and hanging on. sticks. I think were they was it the I. think the cannibalism thing is what gets. people. kind of if they were I don't know if. they were munching. But if you're also just munching on I. think there was was some of that in in. ancient Mesoamerica, you know,

in in the Americas. It's it's in a lot. of places in the world. I don't hold it. against them. I mean it was a long time. ago. I'm not I'm not saying they didn't. do it. I'm just saying it's. >> it is hard to wrap our heads around in. some ways, but um the the. indigenous people in the. 1600s and 1500s were. also recounting their own background and. their own histories and they sometimes. talked about that Yeah. or drew pictures. of it. And and. some some scholars today dismiss it as. exaggeration.

I think it actually did happen. Um Yeah, and then I mean it makes sense. I mean even when they cuz I I I you. know, like when Cortez got there, he was. a he he hit the Yucatan first. So I. think didn't he interact with the Mayans. or something? >> Long before the Aztecs got to the. Yucatan, right? Yeah, and a lot of a lot. of the there was two other expeditions. that got pretty much thwarted the the. Span- the Spaniards before him, right? >> Yeah, that area is so interesting. Um. you know, these crazy expeditions, these. guys who would just head off into the. into the horizon not knowing where they. were going. Yeah. And and the early.

expeditions, um. you know, they hit the coast of Yucatan. and they didn't know where they were or. or they didn't expect to see mainland. right there. And the Maya are there and yeah, they. have these battles. The the Spanish more. often than not get trounced. Yeah. They. have to head back to Cuba and and then. try again and then they go back and try. again and eventually Cortez Yeah. gets. his group together. Finally does it. Yeah, that was that was the one thing. you always hear about Cortez where the. you You popular consensus people say is.

they go, "Oh, he's just like showed up. and he tricked the guy and they handed. it over to him." And I was like, "No, it. was a pretty long, kind of like. gruesome, protracted battle for like I. mean, it was like years." Years? Yeah, I. mean, the whole story of that of of. Cortez's adventure, I you know, I'm still waiting for the. big Hollywood epic movie of this. I. Because it's one of the greatest stories. in all of history. Um it has a lot of painful parts to it,

for sure. It has a lot of drama, but you. can read first-hand accounts of it, too. >> Mhm. That not only Cortez wrote, but one. of his soldiers wrote this amazing. first-hand book. of his memoirs of that encounter. And. it's like a science fiction novel. Yeah. It's like It's like these guys landing. on another planet. And and they have to go through this. process. And it's long, like you say. It took years for. Cortez to arrive on the shore of Mexico.

Mhm. And then to. overthrow the Aztec empire. Yeah. >> Um not a lot of years. It was kind of a. short time in in, you know, two two and. a half years. But but even after that, it took a while. to kind of solidify their their presence. there and to establish, you know, New. Spain is what they called it. So, [snorts]. that that story is one of not just the. Spanish coming in and beating people. over the heads. Cortez had to.

you know, there were just a few hundred. guys, at most. They had to. make alliances with people the Aztec who. hated the Aztecs. >> Mhm. That's how he was successful. Yeah. You know, the the the there was this. city-state called Tlaxcala. It's now a. beautiful town in Mexico, not far from. Mexico City. But that was the center of. a kingdom. Cortez passed through it, actually. warred with them. Eventually, they. realized, "Hey, they could together. fight the Mexica, the Aztecs, you know, the of of Tenochtitlan.

And so that's a whole drama. That's. whole That's part of the story, right? And and yeah, I just find it amazing. Um. I I always. you know, go back and read excerpts of. that story just because it's. it's it reads like a novel. It's like. high drama. It's It's really is kind of. amazing, especially with the um. Who was it? I think Aguilar was the guy. who got like stranded out there. Father. Aguilar got like stranded and like lived. among them, spoke the language, and like. happened to you know, he was a slave for.

like 6 years. Yeah. And so. >> upon that. That's like the most That's. the one story I'm like surprised no. one's ever done. >> Well, right. This is another movie that. someone has to make. In fact, I think. there's scripts that have been That's. cool. >> bandied about in Hollywood for a while. about about that story and the Cortez. and but the Aguilar story, yeah. So. Cortez, when he first arrives on the. coast of Yucatan, >> [snorts]. >> the the Maya that that they are in.

contact with realize. "Wait a minute, we've seen one of these. weirdos before.". Who Who was like floating in a boat. Uh and and the Maya realize that oh. there's this slave who's one of these. bearded. you know, white guys. um who speaks the same language, right? And so they they get him. They bring him. in. uh and and communicate uh and and it. turns out it was the shipwrecked Spanish. sailor. who by that time was fluent in speaking.

Maya. Mhm. And eventually he links up with Cortez. Cortez now has someone who can. communicate for him. Uh. without that, Cortez would not have been. able to go very far. But the other part. of this that's an amazing story. Eventually they uh link up with another. uh Maya uh kingdom, you know, and. interact with them. And this is where. Malinche.

comes from. This is the woman who. eventually becomes Cortez's mistress. >> Yeah. He strangles his wife. He. strangles his. >> He strangles his wife or Right, she's a. princess. She speaks Maya and she speaks. the language of the Aztecs. >> Yeah. So, between those two, Aguilar and. um. uh between the Spanish sailor and and. Malinche, they can actually converse. And they he. and and. Cortez is a master manipulator, right? That comes across in all these stories. And he's talking to the Aztec emperors.

and you know, through these two. And. they're actually having conversations. So, it's just amazing to me that that. all came together. Yeah. You know, and. it was just by chance in some ways. Um. but but again, that's part of how. extraordinary this story is. Yeah, and. and so I thought in in your book that. was you know, the part of it I never. even thought about was like and I I. thought it was pretty cool that you. documented was like the effort it took. to decipher those like Mayan symbols and.

text. And I I still don't understand. You're saying like cuz you get they're. like hieroglyphs. They're phonetic, but also they like I. was something I was like trying to wrap. my head around where they have like. sounds almost like a consonant, but then. it's also just like a pictogram where. it's like this is the thing and they're. I don't know. That was like throwing me. off. I don't know how you guys did that. >> Yeah, it is a little confusing. And so, this This is my my specialty. This is. what I work on more than anything else. is. is decoding Maya hieroglyphs. >> So, you literally like can look at this.

and that's like words. >> and I. >> What? You know what this means? Yeah. >> Get the hell out of here, dude. That's. crazy. And it's beautiful stuff, right? I mean, visually it's really. >> It's really cool. >> cool-looking. And that Actually, this is. one of the things that drew me in as a. kid cuz my dad I remember asking my dad, you know, he was finding. in in like the in the '70s when we were, you know, working in in this Maya site. called Cobá, which is near Tulum. Mhm. I remember he he a couple times he found.

new carved tablets. And they had hieroglyphs on them. And I. would say, "Dad, what what is this? You. know, what what does this say?" And he's. like, "I don't know. I don't know. Nobody can read them.". Um and that, you know, caught me. I was. like, "That's interesting.". And and so, you know, I was really. intrigued with They they looked like. cartoons. They looked like. >> Yeah. I was a bored 9-year-old. Also, like I. was like, "Hey, I just, you know, I just.

started drawing them and copying them. out of books that my dad had.". Just been kind of interested in what. they were. They It was like instead of. Pokémon cards, it was Maya [laughter]. hieroglyphs, you know, for me. Something like that. So, um. you know, it that's what caught me. Um. and and and I. got kind of obsessed with them and and. was asking people that my dad knew, you know, and they were like, "We can't. read these." So, it turned out that, you know, I was.

seeing some new patterns that other. people hadn't seen. There were other. people who I got to know who were also. kind of on the cutting edge of stuff. And and by the '80s, '90s, um. there were a a handful of us who were. these young. uh. some people called us the young Turks, you know, we were these up-and-coming. guys who who were. knew that we were onto something. And we. knew we were making inroads. And so, that was a heady time. I was so. lucky to time my.

entry into this world that way. And and. my dad was sort of like, you know, he was like at a He wasn't. involved. He wasn't pushing me into any. of this. Uh it was just my own kind of interest. And and he was like, "Hey, that's great. what you're doing." And I think he was a. little weirded out at times that we were. [laughter]. deciphering things right and left all of. a sudden, you know, the words for names. of kings and the word for chocolate. Yeah. >> You know, which is written all over the. vases, you know. They didn't know. avocado was a Mayan term either. That. kind of threw me for a loop. Yeah, well,

avocado is we borrowed that word from uh. Nahuatl, which is the language of the. Aztecs. Ahua- Ahua- cacao. >> what it was. It was an Aztec. That's It. was pretty insane. Yeah, so a lot of. these words for foods, cacao is a Mayan. word, so that's written in hieroglyphs. And to go back to your question though, Matt, about the the sounds and the. pictures, yeah, they're they're. elaborate looking, but when you. when you cut to the chase, it they're. spelling words and they're writing them. as sounds. Um, so you can.

the visuals distract you. The. you know, it's like Egyptian too in that. way, right? We see pictures of you know, human figures and birds and stuff stuff. like that in Egyptian, but they're. they're also phonetic. Mhm. There's just. you have to know the language to read. it. So, you know, we really perfected our. ability to read the language behind the. hieroglyphs. And it's a language we can. connect to the language that's spoken. today Mhm. uh in that area and.

uh by by the mid-90s, I would say, we. could read maybe 80 or 90% of Mayan. texts. That's crazy, especially when you. the one thing if if I have this right. was like, you can have different. symbols, similar symbols, but different. for the same sound, which I was like, dude, that's. pretty crazy. >> Well, this gets It gets crazy because. and this is what I helped kind of work. out was just how. ridiculously complex the visuals are.

compared to the actual system. >> Oh. >> So, you can you if they wanted to write. the word cacao, okay, for that's for. chocolate. Mhm. Cocoa. Um they will. write that with sounds. Ka ka wa. Three. hieroglyphs. Mhm. Now, this is a great example because as it. turns out you can write the sound ka one. of a couple of ways. With two different. kind of.

pictures. Um one of them is a fish. And the other one is this thing that. looks like a little comb, hair comb, but. it's actually the fin of a fish. So, it's the same sign. But anyway, it's. they write it as a fish. And the fish is. like, what does that have to do with. chocolate? Well, it's because the fish. is the sound kai. Word The word for fish is kai, right? So, that's where they get the ka sound. So, ka ka wa. They're they're distracting. you writing a the word using the picture. of a fish, but that's just how they do.

it. And so, if you if you sweep through, get past. all the. artistic. uh. sort of bells and whistles. Yeah, there's a lot of them. Mhm. You get down. to the words. And and that's That took a. long time to figure out. Yeah, I I was. you know, I was shocked, you know, that. you know, I mean I obviously makes. sense, but it and there was the So, was. there like a definitive kind of like um. like deciphering codex that kind of like.

made everything like the the Rosetta. Stones like that been. >> Yeah, well, the. the folks in Egypt had it easy. >> [laughter]. >> Compared to us in some ways. Uh so, we didn't have a Rosetta Stone. Mhm. Um. and and that was of course the key in. the 1800s for reading Egyptian. Uh we had some help. One of the things. that helped us was going back to Bishop. Landa. Mhm. In his book, he had and this. is pretty funny. He had a.

um what he called the the alphabet of of. of the uh. of the Maya people, right? And it's like. A B C D E. And and. it's crazy because they didn't have an. alphabet, but Landa didn't get that. He. didn't understand. He was like, "Well, if they're writing, they must have an alphabet, right?". What What Landa didn't realize is that. he was writing down. Maya glyphs for the sounds That makes. sense. Now I see what you're. >> of the letters as they're pronounced in.

Spanish. >> Got you. So, A B C Mhm. D, right? Those were those were the syllables, right? >> Spanish like a notoriously phonetic. language itself? I remember in Spanish. class they're like, "However you look at. this, this is how you pronounce it. pretty much." For the most part. >> the phonetics of it are pretty. straightforward, you know, as an. alphabetic thing, you know, it's it's. the vowels are all pretty consistent. stuff. >> Yeah. So, Landa was was clearly. flummoxed trying to describe He called. it actually this cumbersome.

writing that the the people have here in. Yucatan, and he couldn't get it. What he. didn't realize was. the the guy he was working with, the. Maya guy who was writing down all this. stuff for him, they were just talking past each other. They had no idea what each other was. asking or providing. >> I saw that in your book at one point at. one point the guy literally just said, "I'm tired. I don't want to do this. I. want. >> down This is This is hilarious, right? He writes down in the manuscript. uh "Manticati", which means, "I don't. want to do this anymore.". >> [laughter].

>> That's really funny, >> I'm like, "I'm just like He's done. He's. like, "I'm out here. I'm out. >> Yeah. This episode is brought to you by. PrizePicks. The regular season's done. and the NBA playoffs are here. Time to. get in on the action with PrizePicks, a. preferred partner of the NBA. >> NBA. >> N space B space A. Download the PrizePicks app today and. use code DRENCH to get $50 in lineups. after you play your first $5 lineup. And. during the playoff during the playoffs, make a $5 lineup with a live NBA pick.

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>> [laughter]. >> I'm going to get pyro. underneath the stage, and I'm going to. tell them go ahead. Yeah. Send it. >> Flame me. >> I'm out. >> [laughter]. >> Guys, I had I picked up some comedy club. dates all summer long. We're going to be. having fun together. I'll be 6/5 June. 5th and 6th. I'll be at the Summit City. Comedy Club, Fort Wayne, Indiana. And. that is that's in just a few weeks. >> to a buzz hole over there. Did you. really? >> Yeah. What did you get? What happened? It's just. just an absolute buzz hole. Negative.

experience. [laughter]. People were just hammered. It's a fun. club. >> Yeah, that'll be I'll be there in the. dog days of the summer. Levity Live, Huntsville, Alabama, the Stardome Comedy. Club, Birmingham. I'm excited for that. And Spokane Comedy Club, Spokane, Washington. Uh also, it's not up yet, but I do have a bunch of more dates, so. check them out on mattmccusker.com. Goodbye. Hey, so what what's the. earliest in terms of like cuz you know, that was kind of cool reading about how. they figured out how to kind of. transcribe everything. What's like the. earliest story they have that you guys.

can look back on that has some like. narrative arc or. >> Yeah, so the earliest is story of of. history that we can tap into. is is really the beginning of these many. dynasties. Um we're talking about the. area that's now northern Guatemala, southern part of Yucatan. We we can tell that there are a lot of. these. great cities that are starting up. Some. of them are are being abandoned. There's. all these cycles of rises and falls.

But there's this era around, you know, 200, 300 AD when. these dynasties kind of start up and and. they're often connected with each other. They're often. rivals with each other. And we can start to read names of kings. We can start to read some narratives. about what they're doing. Um one of the big big episodes of Maya. history. that we know about now today. um was in the late 300s in 378.

Mhm. Uh there was. this war. It was a conquest. of this really amazing. city in Guatemala we know of today as. Tikal. Major site. In fact, Tikal is the. uh Rebel moon base in the first Star. Wars movie. George Lucas sign filmed. the the scene of the Millennium Falcon. taking off from the jungle. I don't know. if anyone remembers that scene with the.

pyramids. >> Yavin 4, I think it is in Star Wars, right? >> [laughter]. >> That is Tikal. So he filmed it there. Anyway, fun fact. Um. the in 378, the king of Tikal was. conquered by these uh outsiders who were. coming all the way from Central Mexico. They were coming from. a place called Teotihuacan, which is up. near Mexico City. And they had had a long relationship. clearly. Uh there there's this long.

distance. intermarriages and stuff, but there came. a point where something happened. where they had to take this guy down. And so they go hundreds of miles into. Guatemala to conquer him. And that sets off this whole other. thing. So that history really picks up, let's say, in the 4th century. Mhm. Then. we have. a lot of detailed records after that for. about 4 or 500 years. of um. you just we have thousands of. texts we can read about. hundreds of different actors and and and.

players in this drama. with [snorts] a lot of different. kingdoms. And it does become like Game. of Thrones, like I said, where you where. you have alliances being forged. Those alliances often are being. uh. turned around and and they're uh. turncoats and they're wars in between. cousins and so forth. So so it becomes this really dynamic. world that. you know, again, 30, 40 years ago we. couldn't talk about any of this. That's.

what's exciting. Yeah, I think. >> we can match up. the the places that we're reading about. with the actual sites that, you know, we. are exploring in the jungle. So. uh. that's also really cool. We can. match up the name of this ancient place. to this site. Oh, so you actually Yeah, you know exactly where it was. And it. wasn't like I don't know if this is. because of that, but I was I was kind of. struck by how a lot of the history comes. from just it was like written on the. walls of buildings. Yeah. So like the. buildings themselves held pretty much.

the history, which is pretty cool. >> Yeah, a lot lot of official stuff, just. like, you know, we do in a way, right? We we have monuments and in our parks. and so forth with some official. historical records, but. >> Mhm. yeah, I mean, we're we we have. they wrote a lot, right? They wrote a. lot and carved it on stone. Otherwise. we'd be up a creek, right? Because it. doesn't [laughter] it doesn't preserve. in the jungle. Yeah. Um. they they wrote on pottery, ceramics. So. we have a lot of that stuff. We don't. have anything written on paper from that.

era. Yeah. >> Cuz it's it's not not going to preserve. Yeah, true. >> We the the stuff we have, the books we. have. which is amazing, uh those are much. later, right? The Spanish actually. collected those. Okay. Um. So, yeah, we are we we're lucky to have. what we have is the way I look at it. And and they So, were they like a That. was the one thing I was trying to figure. out, too. Were they like a transient. like they would build these giant like, you know, cities basically and then. [clears throat] they would just leave. like abandon them? Do you Is there any.

idea why they would do that? Was it like. a famine thing or they just would do. that? >> is a huge question and this is the thing. that I think a lot of people um. think about when you when you think. about the ancient Maya is this idea of. collapse. And I often get this question. like, "Well, what happened to them?". Cuz, you know, "Didn't they disappear?". And and that that's a common narrative. out there that the Maya ancient Maya. just disappeared. Which. is kind of problematic because the Maya. are still around. So, as a people they.

didn't disappear. But, what did disappear is that around. 900 800 to 900 AD. Um. a lot of their cities, some of them. really large with tens of thousands of. people. they collapsed. Uh we call this the Maya. collapse. This is a question that. we as archaeologists and academics have. been struggling with for a long time. What happened? So, Tikal, okay, the the Star Wars moon.

base place. That's a good example. Huge. city, 80,000 people, maybe even 100,000 people who were. living there, something like that in the. general area. Between about 800 and 1,000. you're going from a vibrant city to. nobody really living there. And it gets to be overgrown with jungle. and then explorers find it in the 1800s. What happened? So, this is this this idea of a lost. city. This is really where it comes. from. It comes from the Yeah.

>> Maya, you know, explorers in the 1800s. and and. I mean, talk about. romantic exploration. You know, hacking. your way through the jungle, very. Indiana Jones. >> Yeah, that's pretty cool. >> is a 100-ft high pyramid. that no one has explored before. I mean, that that's the reality of early days of. my archaeology. So, this fed into this. question, what happened? It fed into a lot of crazy ideas about. maybe what happened. Um did they disappeared?

Well, they did disappear from those. places. They moved on. So, one of the. things I'm writing about in the book is. you know, what factors went into this? Um. I think there were tipping points. It had to do with climate, for sure, because we have records of drought. Mhm. We know that um. water was hard to come by in these. places. It still is. >> Yeah. Uh so so the you can understand how. these tipping points might come up.

Um but big populations basically. couldn't sustain themselves in some of. these places. And I think also the. political system kind of. fell apart. They were We can also track. in the records. you know, the last 100 years of of this. era was. there was so much warfare. Uh and and and. you know, there had always been. conflict and and you know, like any like. medieval history, but you see it ramping. up. Uh and and in the last few decades.

there, it's just incessant warfare. And. I think the system just breaks down. Yeah. Yeah. So, um. I think the Maya had a lot of agency in. deciding what to do, the people. Mhm. And I think they just voted with their. feet and decided to Just left. >> go off and do other things. >> True, yeah. And and so, this is the one. of the things that I really want to try. to do in my. my narrative about this is that it. wasn't like some external thing that. came, you know, UFOs with beams taking. people away. [laughter].

It's that the Maya um were going through. a crisis. And they had to make some very very hard. decisions no doubt to. do something about their. dire situation in many places and they. decided to leave. Have you seen the. hieroglyph of a guy who's like looks. like he's in a rocket ship looking up. though? >> [laughter]. >> That was the only thing I remember from. Ancient Aliens. They would show that 100. times. >> they keep showing that. >> dude, he's in a rocket ship. He took. off. You're Right. So this is the famous.

or infamous image of a Maya rocket. That. is actually a lid of a coffin. Oh. >> sarcophagus of a great ruler whose name. was. K'inich Janaab Pakal. Mhm. And he ruled. a place. that we know today as Palenque. Beautiful beautiful site in Mexico. And. yeah, when they found his tomb in the. 1950s, you know, this beautiful coffin. with this carving. Um.

there were there was kind of a. interesting situation. After they found. it of course, nobody could read the. hieroglyphs, right? In the 50s or 60s. There were there were all these texts. around the the coffin. It wasn't until the 70s that we could. sort of read the name. Maybe in the 80s and 90s we could read. actually what it was saying. It was. talking about this great king, his birth. date, his death date, all his ancestors. kind of waiting for him in the afterlife. and all this stuff. The scene on the top.

is. of. K'inich Janaab Pakal the king. He's He's kind of taking off in a way, right? But what he's doing is he's. raising as as the sun in the east. He's being resurrected. And and he's not in a rocket. He's just. emerging out of the earth, out of the. kind of this maw, this cave, rising up. as the sun. um, the sky. And it's a really elaborate imagery, but. that's as in in essence what it is.

That's really cool. Not a rocket ship, but he's he's going in the sky anyway. >> [laughter]. >> That's Yeah, I remember just that must. have you know, I was watching that as. like a perpetually stoned young boy. something being like I knew it. This is. awesome. It must have been driving you. nuts. To watch TV and be like what what are. you doing? What are you Why are you. doing this right now? I know, yeah, it. does drive me nuts because, you know, well, here's the thing, right? The those narratives and and it's not. long before Ancient Aliens, long before.

that show, right? There were movies, Eric von Däniken and his book, you know, Chariots of the Gods Yeah, yeah. >> talking about all this stuff in the. '70s. That was at a time when no one could. create come up with a counter narrative, right? So, that takes hold. Mhm. Um, it fills a void, right? To explain. this stuff. Yeah. And now we can explain it. So, this is. the conundrum that I'm facing is.

you know, we do understand it. culturally, historically, but it is hard for us to. fight against, you know, Ancient Aliens, which is on TV almost every night. Yeah. Or or whatever, right? That that's what people. the people who are curious about this. stuff, genuinely curious, don't have a whole lot to go to to. understand it. And they may come up with. um. uh, a show like Ancient Aliens and. that's like, "Oh, okay, that must be the.

consensus view or something like that, right?". >> Yeah. Not knowing that. any archaeologist thinks that's BS. Yeah. >> Um, we're just not very good at. communicating with the public, to be. honest. You know, what we do know. Yeah. And and um, I'll be the first one to say. that academics are terrible at. communicating. some of the realities we think are you. know that that are out there in terms of. history. and culture. So I mean this book I I I. hope is a.

a small um. effort to you know. tell what's really going on to to. explain some of what we think we know. That's pretty So in terms of like that. you know being an archaeologist and I. kind of like the um. I guess like the day-to-day Mhm. Like I get I do you like do you ever. have people cuz it is you know you're. out there you're digging like do you. have people who like break stuff all the. time and like how do you deal That must. be that must be like really tough. Like how really [clears throat] high. stakes of like a you know.

>> Yeah yeah it it it's So archaeology is. well it is a lot of fun you're out in. the in the boonies. often living in a camp with a bunch of. people. for months at a time. Uh that's what I was doing in my younger. days at least um. you know in in in remote places. and it is a little crazy. I mean you you. you're. you're you're studying the this ancient. stuff but you're also kind of isolated.

and you know I just remember living in. the jungle before there was any internet. or anything like that. You know you kind. of go a little bit bananas. >> [laughter]. >> But but also um. yeah there there when you're digging. uh. not necessarily a big pyramid or. something. Let's just say you're digging. a ancient house and it be a pile of. rocks that's a couple of feet high. you know a platform in the jungle. Um there's pottery everywhere. There's a. lot of stones you know wall stones.

Um it's boring maybe. Um even for a specialist it can be kind. of boring. You know you don't find. cool things every day maybe once in a. while there's something. um and usually in my experience the. coolest stuff is discovered. when there's like 2 days left. Really? >> season. And you're [laughter] like, "Oh [ __ ] what do we do?" Like a tomb, you know, royal tomb or something. Yeah. This is typical, right? Cuz. you know, after you dig deep deep in a. lot of time passes, then you find the.

cool stuff. Um so, it can be stressful that way if. you find something special. There's a lot of bureaucracy involved. Yeah. >> You have to let people know what you. found in the government and Yeah, they. try to take it. and and you made it you. mean you get guards down to protect it. Um I was wondering about the theft cuz I. I imagine it's like you guys have a. pretty decent size crew digging, you. know what I mean? So. >> Yeah. Yeah. I would imagine, you know, if I was just there digging and I wasn't. an archaeologist, [clears throat] I. would definitely snag like an old mug or. like I you know, you'd you'd want to, right? Well, I know for a fact that.

stuff does get taken by the the laborers. we sometimes have or. you know, um back in the old day, archaeologists were notorious themselves. for taking stuff. You know, in a way. that probably at the time maybe didn't. seem unethical, but. you know, 100 years ago, archaeologists. working in Mexico, you know, you'd. go to their archives and you'd actually. find artifacts that they brought out, you know, you wouldn't do that today. No, yeah. >> But um What's the penalty? Do you just.

get like lose your like license? Like. how do you Well, yeah, nowadays, it's uh. as a professional archaeologist, you all. artifacts have to be cataloged. You have. to report them to if you're working in a. foreign foreign country, of course you. have to report everything you you have. and that you found. Um. but you know, there are uh. There There's a dark side to all of. this, too, which is like the art market. and the market in looting ancient sites.

And that's what we're. often. fighting against, sometimes directly, you know, looters in the in the field. I've come across. got gangs of looters in northern. Guatemala who were tunneling into. pyramids looking for tombs. >> Yeah, that's my next question. What do. you do for I guess you just said you get. security around the site. Cuz that I'd. be kind of like nervous. I was out in. the woods and tunnels in Guatemala and. I'm digging precious artifacts. I would. assume someone's going to be like, "Yeah, let me get that.". Yeah, yeah. No, I I I. >> they'll tunnel underneath it. Yeah,

well, this is what we do too as. archaeologists. We have to tunnel Oh. >> into if the building is large enough. um and stable enough, that that's the. best way to understand its history is to. actually start digging a tunnel. It's. like you're mining, Yeah. >> into a pyramid. And and the looters do the same thing. Uh so, the irony of a lot of this too is. that. the guys that that archaeologists have. trained. to dig,

when we go home, Mhm. they don't have a. lot to do necessarily and they're like, "Hey, Let's go dig this. We know how to. dig these things now." Yeah. And they go. to town. And and so, uh this actually is. what happened a lot in the '70s and. '80s. Like, there isn't an ancient Maya building in. northern Guatemala that doesn't have a. trench right through it. Mostly by. looting. Yeah, yeah. >> And and it's really sad. Um. >> [clears throat]. >> but uh a lot of the stuff you see in. museums today. in the states, uh you fantastic Maya.

pottery or whatever, a lot of that's not. dug by archaeologists but found by. looters, sold on the art market, collected by. either museums or private collectors. Um. I understand that cuz it's beautiful. stuff. I mean, if I had the money and. wasn't an archaeologist, I would I. understand, [laughter] you know, I'd. love to have a. Maya chocolate vase in my living room. Yeah. Um. so, uh. there there's. there there's that constant struggle, right? There aren't enough. archaeologists to go around.

And there are a lot of people who are. really interested in digging the stuff. up who maybe aren't scientists. And and. you know, what's interesting is that all. of this kind of becomes this big mix. It. becomes this. way of of. of accessing the ancient past. It may not always be through. archaeology, but I'll tell you, the. stuff in museums now that maybe doesn't. have any.

context to it or or we don't know where. it's from exactly. Sometimes those. objects have stories to tell that we can. read or we can figure out. We can. reconstruct it. And and so that's part of it, too, right? I do a lot of work in museums. instead of. uh digging in the dirt. Because. uh and there's still not enough of us. doing this kind of research, frankly, so. uh it's overwhelming. Yeah, so there. you're saying there's a just like a. [clears throat] ton of stuff that's been. found and it's just a matter of taking. the time to decipher figure out.

>> Yeah, yeah, we we have thousands of. It's like having a bookcase or or a. library of thousands of books. and there may be, I don't know, 10 or 15. of us who can read them. Dang. And you. know, we have jobs and other things. we're doing. And. So yeah, it it there's a lot of work. still to be done to figure this stuff. out. So in terms of like, you know, um. Did you guys have a good sense of like. what the Mayans, I guess, like.

philosophy, the religious worldview was. and you know, where where were they at. and how do how do they compare to like. Aztecs or is there is there like big. differences or Yeah, great question. Um. So we do know a lot about Maya. philosophy. and and religion. I think it's hard to. distinguish those things. Yeah. Um. and it is a lot like the Aztecs because. they're all part of this same kind of. Mesoamerican world, which is sort of. like, you You of Greece and Rome.

or the Mediterranean world. where um a lot of those myths and and. religious ideas are kind of the same but. maybe with different flavors. >> [clears throat]. >> Same idea. Um. one of the things that excites me and. and I'm thinking of my next book. actually a little bit um is one about. this about Maya. religion and philosophy. Because. as much as we can read about kings and. wars and dynasties, we can also read. about their gods and about their outlook.

on the world and their cosmology. And the Maya of today have a lot of the. same ideas. about. you know, the way the sun moves around. the sky and how that. creates this kind of overall structure. of the universe and that structure is. reflected in a lot of other things. There's this really elegant cosmology. to these folks and it's not just in. Mesoamerica. I think a lot of it is just. indigenous American.

About the structure of the world and. they they were observing their world. just like scientists do. Like they. didn't have the tools of modern science. but they were smart and they could see. how the world was working, the patterns. of the seasons and of time. and of agriculture and. this sort of cadence of the world around. them. That that that's what created their. philosophy. Um it's it's rooted in.

in literally rooted in in kind of the. earth and and the the sky and. not to get too abstract about it. This. this is stuff that really I find. fascinating because it it's it's like an. archetype. You know, it's like one of. these things that a lot of cultures. share mhm even beyond. the Americas. I mean. if you go to traditional societies in. China or or or philosophy there in Asia, in Africa, you see a lot of the same. ideas about cosmology and and structure.

Uh, that I I don't know, we've kind of. forgotten some of this stuff in our. world, but I don't know, if you're a. farmer in a traditional society. and you're relying on the seasons and. you're relying on on, you know, how the. sun works and how it moves. and the rain, I mean, that that creates. a template that's kind of universal. Mhm. In in in. in the human experience, I think. And.

so, I'm kind of interested, I don't know. a. ton about outside Mesoamerica, but I'm. really interested in. in kind of probing those deeper ideas. Not that people were sharing those. ideas, but I think they're old. I think. they're just really fundamental about. about existing on the on the earth and. and we can tap into it some. That's pretty cool. Yeah. I. from from just like the little bit I've. read about the Cortez and the Aztecs, there was this idea with the Aztecs that.

like if they didn't complete the. sacrifices, like that blood, the blood. was like some universal life force that. they would like, you know, display to. appease the gods. And if they didn't, the skies like would literally crash. down and like there was like a balance. held by all this stuff that if they. didn't do the rituals, it would just. look like the sun would fall out of the. sky. It would just everything would fall. apart. Yeah, yeah, but this is part of a. bigger idea of of. renewal. It's all about renewing the. world. And sometimes it involved the offering.

of one's own blood. in bloodletting or sacrifice. It could also involve. lots of different transactions with the. forces of nature to ensure renewal. So, um, if you step back a bit and look at. the bigger picture, there there is a. philosophy behind it, right? Which is. the. um, uh, humans have a responsibility to renew. things. I think that's very powerful. You know, we we don't do that in our world.

necessarily, [laughter] right? We kind. of do the opposite of that. Um. but but I in this pre-industrial, whatever world, you know, they they were. they they saw that. um. you know, there there were problems with. climate sometimes. There were years of. drought and so forth, you know, not. everything was stable every year, right? So, this is where that idea comes from. Um the Aztecs took it to a certain level. uh in their ideology that that's. different maybe from other cultures, but.

the underlying idea there is that. that humans have to do certain things. We can call that ritual. Um. they didn't have a word for for this as. ritual. They just saw it as the work. they had to do. >> Yeah. to. ensure that yeah, the sun would come up. again after the 52-year cycle or that, you know, it would be as strong as it. once was or that the rains would come. Um I've been part of ceremonies as a. kid. I was a part of ceremony as a kid.

in in Cobá, in this little Maya village. Now it's a bigger town. >> [snorts]. >> The rains they weren't coming one year. that we were there, my dad's project, and the the the the village was in. crisis. because without that rain. there was you couldn't even hunt the. animals cuz they weren't around anymore. >> Mhm. And and people could not grow their. corn. So, the the local priest. um decided to have a rain ceremony. And.

this was completely genuine. This was. not some kind of tourist thing for us. This was for the village. >> And and we had they constructed an altar. in the plaza of the ancient ruins. I mean, talk about atmospheric. I mean, it was wild. And uh it was an all-night ceremony. to renew rain. Mhm. And it's called the. Cha-Chac, which means to summon Chac, the rain deity. Uh. who's a deity we see in the ancient art, by the way.

And uh as one of the. uh I was young. I was 9 years old. The the the the shaman. they call them himen, a doer. He needed kids. to be part of the ceremony. So, he asked. me. to be one of the kids that would um. rotate around uh. every you know like an hour here, an. hour there. There were a lot of us to sit under this. table, makeshift table. It was his. altar.

And it was a four-sided model of the. universe with the four world directions. And. I was one of the four kids that sat. under the table facing in the world. directions. to call the rain god. And I had to sit there for an hour. In. the middle of the night going woah woah. woah woah. >> How how old are you? Woah I was nine. Woah. I was a frog. Yeah, that's. awesome. And I was calling the rain god. And well, we were all sitting there. going woah woah woah woah. And you know, there's there's fermented.

drinks going around, and it's just wild, you know. No women were allowed. It was. just men and the boys. And um. I mean, I was a kid from North Carolina, and I was all of a sudden, you you know, kind of in this thing. Yeah. And my dad. was you know, taking pictures and. uh being the anthropologist. And I was. just sort of going there and going, "What am I [laughter] doing here?". Um. but I that experience for me was it. really really brought home in retrospect. to this idea. that.

you you you know, we have to do things. to renew the world. Mhm. And all. religions do this, right? That that that. in in a Catholic mass is kind of a. renewal ceremony, right? >> Yeah. Um all sorts of ceremonies are are are. renewals of the cosmos. And and and. they're doing it their way, right? And. they do it in these weird ways that we. think are. well, they are kind of nuts. I mean, sometimes these. you know, the the. human sacrifices that the Aztecs were. doing.

um was a kind of renewal to cuz the life. force. is the blood of these people. And and. the cosmos needs its life force. Um there are a lot of. complicated ideas behind all of these. things. But in a nutshell, it is about. renewal. That's pretty So, what's what's like the. pantheon the divine pantheon. [clears throat] looking like? Do they Do. you have a good sense of like all the. different gods like they do? >> Yeah, well, they they had it I said they. they existed in in what we would call.

maybe an animate universe. Mhm. In that, you know, we know that we're. living beings and plants are living. beings and animals. But they also saw. an animation in mountains, in the earth, in the sky. Um. anything that that the sun that moves. around, you know, it has animation. It. it's It has agency in a way, right? So, in when we're talking about gods, we're. talking about in many ways these kind of.

natural forces. >> Mhm. Um. and and so they gave names to these. The. rain deity, right? Who is still venerated. Um. yeah, he's he's. one of the most important, right? Because he's a storm. He's He's like a. storm cloud. Chak, that's exactly what. they call him. When when there's a storm cloud coming. in Yucatan, oh, I remember this as a kid, they would. say, "Hekultale Chak, here comes Chak.". >> Yeah, he's coming. He's coming,

right? And he's coming with his machete. Mhm. >> to break the clouds to bring the the And. in ancient times, it was an axe, you. know? Stone axe, but. um these ideas don't die, right? They're. they're they're still there. And it's. it's easy to say it's like mythology and. stuff like that, but but this is part of. their lives, you know? And and. I think um. they they had. all of these deities and and and.

so-called gods and forces in their. world. Um some of them are ancestors, some of. them are. forces of nature. Um some of them are combinations of all. of these things, right? So, it gets to. be very very complicated very quickly, but. yeah, they they were. you know, like a lot of other cultures, they just saw this kind of animation in. the universe around them. That's pretty and and they're I know. they were notorious, the calendar's the. big one. Yeah, time time was animate. Time was a.

living thing. >> Yeah, that was kind of cool cuz I you. always hear about the Mayan calendar, but in the book the you were talking a. little bit about how they they seemed. almost like. pretty hell-bent [clears throat] on like. really nailing down all those little. kind of swirling gears of time and how. it all fit together and and it was. pretty that was pretty neat. That was. one of the reasons it was I guess easier. to decipher cuz they had such a good a. strong calendar system they were able to. see the date. >> aren't we lucky that they wrote. everything down according to the very. day when things happened, right? So, I've actually had these conversations.

with. um. people who study Egyptian history. Mhm. Or or even Greek history. Like. there's a lot we know about that, but. they may not know the exact day when. Tutankhamun died. Like they might know. the year more or less within a couple. years. We know because of the Mayan calendar. and the. way they mesh with our calendar. the very day when. K'inich Janaab Pakal died and was.

resurrected. You know, we know when the. war of 378 happened. at Tikal. That was on January the 16th. We know when. all sorts of things happened, you know, to the very day. And it's. that's really unusual anytime in ancient. history, no matter where you are in the. world. Mhm. So, we're really lucky we. have that for the Maya. Um they were so interested in their. cosmos and in the patterns of time and. everything. that they they wrote that down with.

precision. So, yeah, it's great for us. >> How many days are in a Mayan year? Was. it 360 or. Well, they had our year, too. I mean, they had 365 days. >> What? They had that. They had um. uh. a notion Well, this is cool. They're We. have a base 10 counting system, right? They had a base 20 counting system. How's that How's How's that work? >> we count our fingers, but they also. counted toes. >> [laughter]. >> Didn't even think of toes. So, I've been.

doing math with my 6-year-old daughter. I'm going to bust my toes out now. So, So, when once you get that idea of. fingers and toes, okay, base 20. So, they they have a counting system that's. 20 instead of 10, 100, 1,000, right? It goes 20, 400, 8,000. Whoa. And so, I mention this because they they. understood time to be 365. days. like we do, even with the leap days in. there. Um.

but they also had this idea of 360 days. Okay. >> Because 20 will go into that. They liked. that. Mhm. And they're like, okay, we'll. use that as sort of a a basic idea of a. year in in this calendar that they. developed. And it it doesn't track with. real time. Mhm. But they used it and they used it to. create this um massive calendar. the scale of which dwarfs our cosmology.

You know, in terms of the Big Bang. Like, the the dates they were writing. sometimes in mythology go back, you know, billions and billions and. billions of years. So, um that that's. another kind of cool topic, but. >> Well, so their mythology has dates and. Yeah, yeah, I know. They're talking. about gods doing things way before our. Big Bang. Yeah, yeah. It's It's really. crazy [laughter] when you think about. it. What what is their like Genesis myth. that like do they have do they have like. a standard Genesis myth or is it just. kind of Yeah, they do. In fact, this is.

something I've been working on in the. last few months. Um. I haven't even published on this really, but uh I think there's one essential. myth about. the the raising of the earth out of. primordial sea, you know, which sounds. like a lot of myths in the world, right? Um and it's the stone that is the. surface of the earth. And. uh there're four. uh guys who kind of hold up this big. table-like stone and create the world.

Um that's recorded in in some ancient. myths I've been working on. Um. the uh it's interesting cuz Maya kings. talk about renewal. Mhm. When they were. marking their. calendar of festivities, they would have. to recreate that myth by by raising. stones. Uh these are the monuments we sometimes. see at Maya sites today or the stones. that are symbols of of that. Um. and the there's another myth that's.

about. uh. kind of a hearth that is created in. primordial time. Uh three stones that get set in a. triangle. And uh that's called the first hearth. place. And that seems to be a really. essential. event in the creation of of kind of the. order of everything, right? So, we have these Here's the struggle right. now among us who are studying this stuff. is we have these little episodes of myth. and mythology. I'm trying to create more.

of a narrative out of them all. Like. what's the real story? How do they all. connect, right? How does the stones over. here connect to those stones over there? Anyway, I'm I'm really optimistic that. in the next several years we're going to. be able to talk about Maya mythology, ancient Maya mythology in a way that we. talk about Egyptian or even Greek or. Roman mythology in terms of this stuff, right? And so that's that's exciting. >> That's pretty cool. Yeah. Well, nice. Well, hey, thanks for coming on, man. And yeah, if anyone wants the book, it is The Four Heavens by David Stuart.

Good job. Thank you. Thank you. Thank. you. Good job getting figuring out what. this stuff means. I just I couldn't do. it. >> There's more to do, too. It's great fun. Thank you. >> Well, man, thank you so much. Appreciate. it. Watch new episodes of Matt and. Shane's Secret Podcast on Spotify. Do. it.