Ep 605 - Arctic Cannibalism (feat. Buddy Levy)

Wow. Wow. Wes. >> All right, we're live. We are live. Buddy Ley, thank you for coming. It's. Levy or Levy. >> It's Levy. >> Levy. Hell yeah. I got it right. >> Thank you for coming. >> Hey, my pleasure, man. Thank you. >> I've been I've been using your books to. fuel the Patreon and uh Well, thank you. for that. >> I appreciate it, man. >> Dude, it's been I I mean, I guess we do. have a symbiosis going here, but it's. really, >> dude, they're they're uh first of all, I. thought like, you know, I read the books. and I'm like, man, this historian really. is a good writer. I would like read and.

I'm like, "This guy can really kind of. uh really turn a good sentence." And. then I I learned you you studied as a. creative writer. >> Yeah, that's true. I um I actually. published my first story when I was 14. years old. Um and it was a it was a bird. hunting story about me, you know, killing a chucker part, which no one. knows about. Um but um you know once I. uh saw my by line for the first time I. was you know because I grew up in this. uh in the shadow of Ernest Hemingway in. Katchetum Idaho and I was like um I just. like telling stories you know.

>> and uh it was it so I I wasn't ever good. at anything else ended up being an. English major so I just followed that. path you know from the time I was a kid. >> That's well that's why I really like the. books and I was talking to you before we. came in here. I was like how did I I. don't know how I heard about the book. I. was like, maybe it was from someone I. follow. It might have just been like a. random search. I I genuinely don't. remember. I do think it's from the Josh. Reeds books thing, but I forget. Um, that was Concistador. But that was the. thing. I was reading it and I'm like, man, this this history book is like it's.

just focused on the narrative itself. rather than just like it's just I get. drowned in facts reading history where. I'm like, dude, just tell me the story. Tell me the story. And then and then. what you do is what's nice is you give. the occasional historical zinger where. it's like actually this thing was that. and it's like okay it's kind of cool to. know. >> Yeah. >> So I got to say it was I got to I got to. tip the hat first and foremost. It was. the books are great. >> Well and I've really enjoyed listening. to you guys um make things like uh human. ritual sacrifice and smallox funny you.

know um that that's you know because. when I'm writing it I'm thinking you. know this isn't really comedy. Uh but. you guys crush it. I there is something. very funny about you know we're talking. obviously about the the Aztec the. concistador thing but there is something. just that I thought was funny about. never meeting a certain type of people. before cuz the way they like brought him. into their temples like yo this is cool. check this out and it would just be like. a a dead dog with his skull crushed in. and like a dead kid they were eating and.

you'd be like what the [ __ ] what is this. and they're like what you don't think. this is cool like we think this is cool. and they're like no. >> it's terri that's the worst thing you. can do. Like, no, this is like the. coolest thing you can do. And then they. the civilizations clashed, >> right? >> So, it is funny to be like, yeah, I want. to show you something very important to. me. We were eating teenagers. And you're. like, >> no. Yeah. >> Yeah. It's when I write these books too, it's always like people are like, you. know, um why do you focus so much on. this this darkness, all this stuff, you. know? Um, and I'm like, well, I just I.

like to see um, as you say, you know, different cultures coming together and. also um, what happens to people when. they're on the edge of survival, like. how are they going to contend with this. new world or this new place? Um, and it. really intrigues me to see what, you. know, to what degree people, especially. back then, you know, like were able to. figure it out and just um, and move on, you know. Yeah, it's pretty uh it is. pretty wild because it's like especially.

the the food thing and all that like in. concistador and all those books like. these guys will go on these missions and. like Yeah, you only have so much food. and they run out. Now it's like we got. to drum up food in a place we've never. been to, >> right? >> So that that I kind of Yeah. Just like. you have to every time you want to eat. you have to raid basically a village or. just be like try to be cool, >> right? Yeah, that's the thing. Um or or. have slaves. It's, you know, very. helpful. That that also blew my mind in. terms of the uh concisador. Hey Nate, don't [ __ ] laugh. We're talking about.

a different time period. And they were. handy. You can't deny having 2,000. slaves would be handy to get food. Nate, we're talking history. All right. >> I don't agree with it personally. But if. I needed food and I had either zero or. 2,000, I'd like I can get food. Whatever. Anyway, and by the way, I used to sugarcoat it. You know, I when. I was writing it, I would be like they. had uh 2,000 porters and and women who. were making tortillas and my friend, this writer friend, she goes, "Yeah,

those are called sex slaves." And I'm. like, "Well, no, they were like bearers. and porters." She's like, "Those were. slaves. They they took them.". >> She's right. That was the uh the sheer. volume. This is what shocked me because. it would be like, you know, I think. Cortez landed with what, like 600 guys. >> and like 2,000 slave. Was that true? Well, he didn't come with uh very many. slaves. He he he did bring one that had. smallox, which was useful for him. Yeah. But. >> for some reason, I thought Cortez had a. he started out with a lot. Maybe I'm. thinking of someone else. >> What he ended up doing, Cortez ended up.

like recruiting the these uh ancillary. villages like the Totonics and the. Taskans. And he then did deals and said, "Can I use your guys to go get this. major leader um who you call Maktish, right? or muk. >> Wait, so I could have sworn Cortez. rolled up. They had they had their. porters. >> Yeah, but they got those from um the the. villages that they subsume sub uh. subsumed as they first arrived.

>> So he didn't roll it. It was then I'm. thinking of the Pizaros in. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> That guy set out with the party with. like 2,000 Yeah. slaves. >> Yeah. But, you know, >> at any rate, like they couldn't have. done it alone and even then they were. often outnumbered significantly, you. know. Yeah. >> But they just um figured out ways to. manipulate, terrorize. >> Yeah. Well, there there was that story. from the and I'm going to actually talk. about this later today, but there was a. story from the um Gonzalo his last stand.

or when when he's like fighting that. Spanish civil war. He's fighting another. Spaniard and it was actually his Gonzalo. slave who ran out and chopped the guy's. head off. >> Nice. >> And just carried it around town like, "Yo, we got it." And he had to be like, "Bro, why you don't do that to a fellow. Spaniard? What the hell are you doing?". He was he was dancing in the end zone on. the guy. He was. >> But yeah, it's just very Yeah, it was. like the war was to stop slavery in. South America. And the dude's slave cut. the guy's head off who was trying to. stop slavery. Yeah, it was pretty. He.

was like, "Nah, [ __ ] that dude.". Gonzalos anyway. But yeah, it was. definitely a complicated time for sure. Complicated time. But that is it is so. brutal though because you're try you are. trying to get the story but you like at. every turn it is completely and like you. were saying you're rolling around with. you know quote unquote three women who. make tortillas for 600 guys. They're obviously sex slaves. The guys. some of the [ __ ] guys were probably. sex slaves.

You know what I mean? It's got to be. somewhat prison rules. >> Well, it gets lonely out on the trail, >> you know. But, but yeah, I I just got to say the. uh the books are they're nice because it. is just it's the story. It's like the. thing that happened based on all the. historical record, which how like is. that boring researching that? Like how. how do you get through that? Because I I. feel like I would kind of. >> go crazy. >> That's a great question. Um no, you. know, when I I love the research part of. it. Um, and I it's like two components.

to it for me. There's the actual sitting. there and reading everything that's ever. been written or to the extent that I. can, everything that's ever been written. about the particular subject so that. then I know the story and then I start. writing. But then I also, you know, I. always go to the place that I'm going to. write about and do an expedition of my. own so I can make it as real and seem um. like even though I'm casting myself back. maybe 500 years um to try to be on the.

ground and in the environment that I'm. writing about so that I can feel the. sense of the place and the see the flora. and fauna and we can maybe talk about. some of those um expeditions that I've. done. But, you know, it's for me it's. fun to immerse in that. It's kind of. like doing like a mini uh a master's. degree or a PhD for every book, you. know, and it actually leaves a freaking. mark, you I mean, I'm on my 10th book. and um every time it's a huge divot out. of my brain, you know, because I log in.

for, you know, maybe six or eight months. of just reading and then I'll go on my. expedition where I'm going to go and. then I sit my ass down and spend maybe. six months to a year depending just. writing the book. And so the but I. always find the reading part um the. research part really um inspiring. because you know I'm going back to these. original texts and they've got you know. journals and diaries and in the case of. the Spaniards you know they had these um.

scribes that were there just to record. uh the events and then so you you get. these first and letters that they're. writing back home and so you really get. transported to these places and to the. minds of the people who were. And then of course you have to balance. out to what extent like they're lying. Yeah. >> Or or padding the story for different. political reasons. And so you're doing a. bunch of sifting and deciding um on. which you believe. And you know history.

to me is pretty uh dynamic and. malleable. It's not like this set thing. It depends on you know they say history. was written by the victors. So. >> but I love it. I love that part. This. episode is brought to you by Prize. Picks. How have I been feeling about. sports lately? Oh boy. College. basketball. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Check. Check on how Duke and Michigan are doing. in the tournaments and if they're going. to win at all. I don't know. I'm liking. Duke. I'll be honest. I'm liking Duke. Uh I've been caught up in March Madness.

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terms of the expeditions, is that is. that like I get you do it for to like. get a sense of the place, but like is. that also just to kind of get your own. adventure thing going where you're like, you know, cuz that's kind of because. you've you've done now you've done the. Amazon. >> Yeah. >> Did you climb the hills and everything? >> Uh well, I hiked over the Andes. >> That goes Yeah. I started in I try to. for for River of Darkness and Kungistor. I try to follow the route of the. concisadors. uh as precisely as possible, you know, using maps. Now in modern day context.

it's a little different because you know. there's more people there now but um you. know for the Amazon yeah I started in. keto um did some uh went on partly on. horseback partly on a bus and then I. tked down to the headarters of the Koka. River and then went for like three weeks. in a dugout canoe with two guides and uh. just me and two other people and floated. down the river in a dugout canoe,

sleeping in the rainforest in hammocks. Um, it was it was one of the coolest uh. adventures. >> Yeah, I wanted to ask you about that. What What was it I I do want to go there. one time, but what was it like being. there? And you know, >> oh my god, I it's quite remarkable. I. mean to put it in context, I spent like. I think two to three weeks um including. the Andes part and by the time I. finished which was in Aikitos Peru um. that's just where the Marinon meets the.

Amazon and so there's 20 I went 400. miles and there's 2,300 miles more to go. to the Atlantic, you know, >> and and that you know to give context, I. had to look this up. That is like. driving from New York City all the way. to basically I think like Idaho. It's so. far. >> It's so far. >> And you know, but it's cool because once. you get out there, it's still I mean, I. floated through this uh Yasuni National. Park and um there's so that you know, it's like one of the most biodiverse. places in the world. Um and then you're. just like you get into this river rhythm.

where you know, you float for hours and. everything starts to look the same. because you know, you're shrouded on. each side by these giant sa trees. Um, and you know, you you have to wear like. kneeh high rubber boots cuz there's ant. colonies. I mean, there's so many. critters that can, you know, mess you. up. Vampire bats. And that. >> Did you see any vampire bats? >> I did. And I saw, you know, the thing. is, I don't know if you remember in. River of Darkness, but the vampire bats. are pretty intense. They they come onto.

you at night and and um they have these. like canine incizer teeth and they so. they they pierce the skin and then they. have this anti-coagulant. enzyme in their saliva. So they just. lick at the wound. >> all all night blood. Yeah. You just keep. bleeding. Um but I was I was cheating a. little because I had a um I had a. hammock that uh had mosquito netting. Uh, so you know, the other my guides. were just like sleeping in hammocks just.

out there. But you know, there's so many. there's like spiders the size of your. fist. And. >> what was some of the craziest things you. saw in terms of animals? >> Oh my god. Well, so I This is kind of. bizarre. You know, I wanted to uh when. when you're in the in Rome, I guess, or. went in the Amazon, I decided to to go. on an iawasa trip, you know. So I didn't. decide. >> Did you do it? Would you do it. classically? Did you have it boofed? >> Remember, remember they say they like. siphoned it up their butts back in the. day. >> I did not go for the enema style, but.

>> that's kind of sick they did that. though. >> I know. Well, I mean it gets there. It's. it's mainlinining. Yeah. No, this guy, my guide, Jose. Shingongu, cool dude, man. He he was. like, I'm going to go get the bark and. do you want to try? And I was like, sure. You know, >> he was just your river. >> He was my guide. he knew all the birds. and and u he was like you know when. you're here you you know if you guys. whoever wants to try it you know and uh. there were only these three people um. and the two guides and so I said yeah. I'll give it a shot um I mean I g I grew.

up dabbling a little in uh in some of. these uh hallucinogens and uh and so. so I had read about and I thought like I. was hoping for this amazing. um spiritual journey and supposedly if. it. takes right. You're going to have this. vision quest and and meet your spirit. animal. >> Yeah. >> So, as we had been going through the. Yasuni National Park, I had seen a pink. dolphin, which is a freshwater dolphin. They're like a little 4 foot long,

really cute. >> So, I I'm the coming on and I'm having. these hallucinations and I keep seeing. this pink dolphin and I'm like, "Wait a. minute." So, my wife's spirit animal is. a dolphin. And I'm like, I was expecting. like a seawolf, you know, these giant. wolves with like webbed paws or a. freaking kraken or something. And I I. get a pink dolphin for my spirit animal. Yeah. >> 4 foot animal, you know? I mean, it was. not it wasn't what I had hoped for.

Frankly, >> you didn't drink it enough. You should. have drank. Give me four more cups. >> Like, Jose. >> So, so yeah. How was that? Was it like. did you have a super strong dose or did. you feel like it was like a mild dose or. >> I I wished I had wished for I was. wishing for more. Yeah, actually just to. transform that dolphin into something. useful, you know, like kill. Yeah. >> But I have also read I'm glad actually. that it didn't take fully because I've. I've seen some stuff and heard that you. know people come out of that.

changed. >> Yeah. Yeah. I It's like I from what I've. heard I've never done it, but I've heard. like the full dose is like you were. puking. >> Yeah. [ __ ]. >> I I felt I I just hurled a little early. on. >> Yeah. But um you know the other thing we. did which was kind of insane. I mean. really cuz that you know I was like they. took us out. We were on this one big. lake um that was like off I mean the. whole thing is so massive that it was. actually part of the river but it was. slow moving. It seemed like a lake. And. he's like you want to go catch my guy.

said you want to go catch piranhas. And. I'm like, "Sure, I'm a I'm an angller.". Yeah. You know, grew up fishing. And I. go, "What do you use?" And he's like, "Hot dogs." And so we go out there, we. got a little stick and we're dangling. for piranha, right? And then he said. afterwards he's like, "Do you want to go. swimming?" And I'm like, "Well, [ __ ]. They're carnivores, man. Like, are we. going to So, we swam with in the same. vicinity of these piranhas, you And it. was like you're just sketched a bit cuz. like alone they're not they're like I.

mean their jaws are serious but they're. they're not big. >> Mhm. >> But you get a couple hundred piranhas. and you're bleeding and then you know. you're it's just like the movies. >> Yeah. They can they can munch you pretty. quick. >> But they jumped in first and showed me. and I was like okay I'm not going to. wimp out here. You know I'm going to go. >> Yeah. I I'd be so when I keep every time. I hear about people swimming in the. Amazon I'm like it's terrifying cuz. there's there's like manatees in there. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, the manatee, you know, they're chill. >> I I mean, I I could have seen the. manatee as my spirit animal, too.

>> Something. Yeah. >> Just the sea cow is what they're called. They're just like go on the bottom and. graze grass. They're just like sluggish. >> So, anyway, um that's awesome. >> Yeah, it was uh it was really. informative. And you know what I'm. usually trying to do when I'm um going. on these journeys is I bring all the. primary texts that I can carry. Uh and. so I'm reading about the expedition that. I'm writing about and then I'm kind of.

living my own one. um and sort of. putting it together like what this place. would have been like and the s you know. there are all all sorts of things like. um in the Amazon for instance the sounds. you know in the evening there's like. thousands of different um insects and. weird like night insects where the. freaking you know their head pops up and. it goes around like with iridescent. blinking lights and it's just wild you. know and there's um. >> you know there's there's panthers and.

the thing It's got me a little nervous. is um I'm not scared of snakes, but um. you know the Amazon has the largest the. anaconda, right? So, >> you know, even if you're in a 4t up in a. tree in a hammock, you're thinking for a. 30ft anaconda. >> is not a really big reach for them to, >> you know. >> Yeah, they can slither up a tree. >> Come constrict you to death. >> So, like. >> what do you do to I guess you got to. yell and they cut it off or whatever. >> Yeah. I mean, you know, the you don't.

really want to be running into an. anaconda, but there's a guy named Paul. Rosolei who lives in the rainforest, and. that dude is badass. Um, and so he he. like intentionally goes out and finds. them and catches them and wrestles with. them and stuff, you know? So, if you. know what you're doing, uh, which I. didn't. I mean, I was just trusting my. guy. >> Yeah. I mean, what do you how do you. what what like skill can you have to. like wrestle? What do you got to know to. do? >> You need like the croc hunter mentality, you know? True. I know if it was like. quicksand if you like I know if you like. lay on your belly in quicksand it's.

better for you. >> Spread out the surface. >> Yeah. I don't know if I guess anaconda I. would try to poke its eyes. >> Yeah. And there's all sorts of poisonous. um animals creatures you know. Um the. weirdest thing is that there are these. like you know um well and also kimon you. know which are not as gnarly as like an. Australian saltwater croc. But we we. went out uh evening spotlighting for. kimon. They're like an alligator. >> Yeah. >> And um or they are an alligator. >> They're smaller. They're How big are. they? >> Yeah. They can get pretty big. Uh but. these the ones we were messing with were. just like four feet. But even then it's.

dark and you're like I don't do you not. my normal course of life to be grabbing. alligators, you know, and messing with. them. Even though I was born in New. Orleans, I should be more. >> burly about gators. >> Oh, they can can't they jump like out of. the water? >> Yeah, >> they kind of leap up and snag you. >> Yeah. So, uh, that was, um, and you. know, it's just like the stuff that it's. the unknown to me. So, you're you're. like sleeping in this hammock and then. you hear all the stuff like the howler.

monkeys who make this really wild. lionlike husky roar sound. Um, and you. know, just being out in that environment. is so intoxicating for me. Yeah. I don't. know why. >> So, and you and you recently went to the. Arctic, right? >> I did. >> That was surprising. Like, what the. hell? I've never That's one place I've. never even thought to go. >> Yeah. I went from the jungle to the. great north, the ice, you know. Yeah. Um. and I've actually now I'm on my fourth. Arctic book. And u So. >> you like the Arctic? >> I really do. I I like the um.

again well you know there's so so many. elements to it like um but I I was going. to say that on my most recent book I I. wrote about the first people who tried. to fly blimps to the North Pole like. back in uh the early 1900s. And when I. first read that, I'm like, "Huh? We're. gonna we're going to take a uh 200 foot. balloon, inflate it with like 270,000 cubic feet. of flammable hydrogen, stick a freaking,

you know, Johnson 40 outboard motor on. it. What could possibly go wrong? You. know, the thing is going to blow up.". Um, >> how did they make out? >> Well, there's some really great stories. of uh that and that's just my third. Arctic book. Um, you know, there there. there were crashes on the ice and and. people having to survive for months on. end on floating sea ice, big bergs. Um, and you know, Matt incred Well, this. that book is called Realm of Ice and. Sky, and it set off the largest Arctic.

rescue in history. Um, but the cool the. funny part about going to those places. is so I went went to this place called. Spalbard, which is 600 miles north of. northern Norway. It's still in Norway, but it's halfway between the northern. the Norwegian North Coast and the North. Pole. >> Uh, so it's like way it's the most. northern inhabited place on Earth. Um, >> and uh, I had I had met I had previously. met this woman in Greenland. Um, and.

which is actually before we owned it and. had a golf course there, but you know, um, what what are you gonna do? This was. 20 years ago. Uh, and she got me um. really turned on to uh the Arctic and. and uh Arctic explorers and stuff. >> And so I ended up meeting up with. Ingred, my friend, and and and went to. Spalbard. >> Bizarre thing. When I I before I left to. go to Spalbard, I read this story and I. was like cuz I wanted to camp and I. wanted to get the feeling of what, you.

know, at least to a degree of what it. was like for these people to sleep in. the cold and on the ice. Um it turns out. that there's only one campground that. you can stay in Stalbard and it's. like during co a guy this Dutch man. whose job was to put an electric fence. around this campground uh he was there. with all this is like one of the great. tragic ironies man he was there all the. fencing equipment was lying there at the. campsite camp area and um.

the day before he was going to install. the fence he got um mauled to death by a. polar bear. Right. So in Spalbard, the. polar bear is protected. There's signs. all over uh the outskirts of the town. that's just have a picture of a polar. bear and then it says like beyond this, you know, you're kind of on your own. Yeah. >> And so, you know, you can imagine the. first few nights sleeping there, uh. electric fence or no, if you've ever. watched videos of polar bears, like. they're just step right over that thing.

or break through it. You know, they're. incredibly. >> for some reason. I thought they were I. just I think I've only ever seen them in. like Coca-Cola commercials, so I like. didn't even know they I didn't know they. ate people. I thought they were pretty. chill. >> Oh lord. >> They're pretty vicious. >> They are I mean I you know. >> Well, there you go. Learn something. every day. I thought they were honestly. like chill bears. I I swear to God you. said they ate them. I was like that. sounds unlike polar bears. >> Yes. So there were some fitful nights uh. in the in the campsite. >> Wait, so they never finished the. electric fence after the guy got mushed? >> They did, but man, the thing is this. high. Like it it just wasn't going to do.

it. But, you know, after a few nights, you're like, I mean, you know, you hear. the tent flaps rustling and stuff and. you're like all sketched out. Plus, at. that far north in the summer, which is. when I was there, the the midnight sun. is there's no darkness. >> So, you know, you're kind of not. sleeping anyway. And then you, you know, you hear anything and you're like, >> what are the people like who live there? I always wonder those places where like. it's it's light 24 hours a day. Do they. get like the total darkness, too? >> Oh, yeah. What are the people like. there? Are they like completely weird or.

like. >> I feel like you'd be really weird if you. like didn't have a natural. >> they're hearty folk man like cuz six you. know you know half the year it's nearly. dark and so but there's northern lights. there's the aurora borealis and stuff so. you know they cruise around on dog sled. and with snow machines in the winter and. in the summer it has like you know a. three-day growing season. yeah they do some quick harvesting uh. but no it's just so it's never really. that warm you know I was in June and it. snowed and um it's a it's a harsh I.

really you end up appreciating the kind. of people who um are carving out a life. there. I mean Spalbart itself is very. organized. It has a lot of tourism uh. you know big um tour ships come in but. also you can go on um guided expeditions. and go see kayaking among the icebergs. and the glaciers which I did and really. >> um it's so so rad. I love that place. >> Really? Yeah, >> I've never That's I got to I got to. think about that cuz every time I hear.

about like North Pole, all that Arctic. exploration, I'm like, >> count me out, man. I don't know why. I. just Is it Isn't it just like snow as. far as you can see or like. >> Well, there's a lot of you know, there's. a lot of mountains, too. And um having. grown up in the mountains, I'm drawn to. that. So, you know, >> huge and it comes from sea level. So, you've got these massive peaks jutting. up and fjords. It's kind of like you. picture Norway but farther north and um. >> and stays icy and cold and windswept for. more of the year. So.

>> So here's the question because it's like. if you're on an expedition you would you. prefer dying the death of someone dying. in the Amazon or in the Arctic? >> Yeah, that's a good one. Um you know. I've I've read and written about uh both. kinds of death, right? Um I there's. something appealing in a way about like. the the cold if you were just going to. free get hypothermia and freeze to. death. Um. >> that would be okay cuz you just sort of. like go to sleep and you know lie there.

and let it happen as they say. Um but uh. you know if you go the other route um. you know in the jungle you get like deni. fever or something which would not be. fun or you know you're bitten by some. >> snake that gives you paralysis first. So. yeah, I'm going to take the north. Except I will say that when I was in. Greenland, um we went out on a boat with. a um I was was actually writing about a.

blind adventurer named Eric Weine Mayor. who was the first blind man to summit. Mount Everest and kayak down the entire. length of the Grand Canyon. >> How the hell did he do that? >> Uh well, he had he had help. He had a. guide. Um but amazing. I mean, he's a. transformative human. >> Yeah, that's crazy. But I was following. him in Greenland on this adventure race. and where it's just like a week of. different really hard sports and. >> part of it included like boating for. like a day or two all around this. southern Greenland.

>> and I we were following him in this boat. and I get I get in the boat with this. seal fisherman dude um or seal hunter I. guess and you know I said I when we got. in the boat I said like. where are the life jackets, you know? And he he looked at me and he kind of. smiled to the Greenlandic Inuit dude. And he's like, "Um, we don't have them.". And I go, "Why?" Cuz I mean, I'm going. to get off. And he goes, "No, no. Uh, if. we fall in the water, we don't want it. to take that long to die.".

>> Oh. >> And I'm like, "That makes all sense." So. cold because if you're just like. floating along, you know, then you it. will take 10 minutes. Whereas if you. just. >> bob and then sleep, >> how cold is this water? Oh frick, man. Because salt water can keep it Yeah. below free. You know, it's like. >> Bergs are floating around on the top. I. mean, it's literally three minutes. You. without a dry suit, you'd die. >> You would die. >> So, you're going in this boat hoping. like everything goes well, you know, like really trust the dude. But.

>> yeah. So, he was basically if you fall. in, we're dead anyway. So, like it seems. like you don't really. >> What size craft are you guys on? >> This boat was like a a 20 foot outboard. >> Okay. But we were following the people. who were actually kaying in rubber. rafts, you know, so they they were more. imperiled than we were. >> Yeah. So, but they had the wet suits, which I guess they would only even. preserve you for not that long. >> A while the good really good dry suits, you'd stay alive for till somebody came. and if they came and got you. >> Yeah. But, you know, of course that made. me realize again I'm thinking I'm trying.

to think about the stories that I'm. telling and the people I'm writing about. and like they had none of that, you. know, no Gortex, no dry suits, and. they're out there in like native in in. the north, you know, like the the. >> the um Scandinavians and the some of. these northern peoples are the ones who. invented like skin seal skin kayaks, right? So, they are expert in paddling. these things, you know. >> What is a seal skin kayak? So, basically, if you see, you know, the. plastic kayaks that you see out on the. river here, but they build them with. like um wooden frames and and sometimes.

bone because in a lot of these places in. the far north there's no trees. Um and. then they. >> uh they put the outsides are like. stretched seal skin or sometimes walrus. Um and so they are really they're. watertight. Um, and you know, they're. the ones who invented the whole the the. older kayaks actually look pretty much. the designs have stayed similar, you. know, where there's a little cockpit and. you're sitting down, but you're so low. on the water, you know, >> it's it's in any wind and waves and.

[ __ ] it's just terrifying. Like I don't. want to be in there. >> It's crazy, dude. >> Well, it's funny, too, the guys who. explored that place cuz like, >> you know, again, going back to the. Amazon, it's like, okay, check it out. like here's like a kind of a useful. place, but like the thing with the North. Pole, it's like you get there, you're. like, "Dad, there's a ton of snow." It's. like, "Okay, it's an open polar sea.". Like there's nothing there. But what. what was really intriguing to me. >> I'm not trying to rag on the North Pole. >> was that you know they didn't um they. they didn't know um like so where the.

people that I was writing about up until. uh and even including the derigible. airship journeys um in like the 1880s. uh this was just a giant blank white. spot on the map. >> I was about to say what did they think. was up there? Was there any like tales. of what they thought might be there? >> Yeah. and some really confused tales. that actually ended up like not helping. people because they they there was this. theory that there was a ring of ice. around this kind of um warm temperate.

zone. So they thought that it was like. open sea there. And so a lot of times. when the the Brits and some of the other. I mean the those the Nordic the. Norwegians went there or tried to go. there like the theory was okay we're. going to break through this ice barrier. and then it's like warm. I don't know. why they believed that exactly. Um. >> could be. Did you ever get into hollow. earth theory? Could there are people who. think at the top of the North Pole like. it hollows out. You kind of go in. Yeah.

Just jump. >> right through. Um. >> teleport right to China. >> See at the bottom. >> Yeah. where it's also ice and frozen. found out there was not the fabled oasis. in the middle of all the ice, >> right? And a lot of times the early. expeditions went uh with not enough gear. and warm clothes because they thought. they were going to end up in these more. temperate places. Um and they should. have figured it out by not noting what. the indigenous people were wearing.

>> Yeah, true. >> You know, they're like totally bundled. up with freaking caribou. How how high. up do indigenous people go up to the are. they on the North Pole? >> Well, nobody lives at the North Pole, but they they um they live Las Solar is. the most northern place, but on the. northern coast of Greenland, there are. still uh native populations, people who. are still carving out a life up there. and living traditional way with, you. know, um seal hunting and I mean there. there's every there's like whales and. beluga and you know.

>> Yeah, I think. >> they're hardy. I I would imagine I think. uh whatchamacallit the igloo I read I. was in like a kids museum with my kids. and apparently they like retain heat. like insane like snow retains heat. >> Oh man. >> Unbelievably so. >> Yeah. Uh, one of the things that's in in. writing about these um, expeditions, you. know, I marvel at the endurance of. these, you know, the explorers because, uh, in many in some cases they were. smart enough to take along indigenous. guides and hunters and, you know, they.

they would slog for like 12 hours across. the snow and ice, get to the end of the. day, build an igloo uh, in like 45. minutes, and then you have like a seal. blubber lantern at one end and you're. tucked into this igloo and there's and. these guys are, you know, taking um not. only writing down where they've gone, what the coordinates were, um writing. letters home, you know, and recording in. their journals and diaries everything.

that's happened, including what the. weather was like. Um but, you know, they're doing that after after just. trekking for a day or something. And the. other thing that most people don't. realize is that the the especially in. the north, it's not not the case in the. South Pole. Um, but these they're giant. um flows of ice that's breaking up and. they move uh tremendously. So you could. be in your igloo and all of a sudden you. and you hear this crashing cra, you.

know, heaving sounds and and shattering. and now the ice is breaking up. underneath your igloo. And so they like. scam you. You kind of need to sleep with. your boots on or your your buck. >> Oh, that's what you're saying. It's just. a frozen sea, >> right? And then and so it'll shatter and. then you have to get out of there and. like regroup somewhere over here and you. know you're yelling at each other in the. darkness and gnarly. >> Oh, that sounds awful. >> That really does sound terrible. That's. not It's not You're not pitch me on the. North Pole. What's up with the South.

Pole? >> Yeah. Well, the South Pole is different. It's more of a land mass that has frozen. C2. Um, but what I've always found funny. is that, you know, because not not a lot. of people know about the Arctic and the. Antarctic. So they'll they'll I'll tell. them I'm writing about the Arctic and. they say um the only thing they know is. Shackleton, which is one of the the most. famous explorers, right? And uh they're. like, "Oh, so like Shackleton, right?". And I said, "Well, yeah, it's like. Shackleton except on his journey, everyone lived.".

>> And I only write about stories where. half the people died. >> at least. And Shackleton was Antarctic. >> Yeah. Yeah. Still, it's an amazing. story. >> Personally, if I was talking Arctic and. someone came at me with Antarctic, I. probably wouldn't even respond. I'd be. like, "Yeah, okay, dude. >> I know what you mean.". >> But I haven't been there. That's the one. on my bucket list of uh I've been on. every continent except Antarctica. And. so that's that's next. >> So, and North Pole at like the North. Pole, is that like a military base or. like what is there? >> No, there's it's just it's just a a spot.

on the map. what. >> still um so what the what they did. discover was that there there had been a. theory that there was a another. continental land mass there so you know. maybe we maybe there's um. reserves of something oil maybe we can. you know and there it was contested uh. by a number of countries so what they. did figure out in the book that I wrote. Realm of ice and sky they fly over it in. a blimp. >> and are able to take pictures and and.

confirm that there's no land mass there. that it's just a giant expanse of of. moving ice. >> Okay. And then I'm trying to like. picture it. So if you fly to the North. Pole and then just keep going straight, >> you Well, these guys ended up in they. they crash landed in Teller, Alaska. Well, it depends on uh what direction. you go, but like Well, the cool thing is. once you go once you pass the North. Pole, >> every direction. leads south, you know? It's like no.

matter if you turned around or which in. one case they did. They turned around. and then went back to Swallbard. That. didn't work. They crashed. Dang. >> Um but yeah, it's um Yeah, these stories. I love because, you know, once they're. out there, then something usually. invariably terrible happens. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's really It is. I I. do like that when you're reading all of. a sudden it's like they're about to die. They're like literally on the verge of. death the entire time, >> right? How are we not going to die? >> Yeah, you know.

>> Yeah, I was I was bugging out on the. poison and it's a different thing, but. the poison arrows in River Darkness was. like. >> I couldn't stop thinking about them. Just one little scratch from a poison. arrow and it's just like a 24-hour. shivering horrible death. >> and your arm turns black and falls off, right? And it's like, yeah, don't you. duck and stay under those manity. shields, you know? >> Dude, that [ __ ] sucks. Guys, this. episode is brought to you by On It. Ever. feel like your brain is on but nobody's. home? H spend 10 to 15 seconds sharing a.

quick, relatable, and funny story from. your own life about a time. How about. this, guys? I'll be honest. I uh I do. dumb stuff all the time. This is for. Alpha Brain, by the way. I They sent it. to me, so I've been taking it. I [ __ ]. like it. I swear to God. I figured I. would like Let me just try it out. Let. me see, you know, let me see what's up. what it's all about. I like it, dude. It. feels It's a nice uh It's caffeine-free, first of all. That's why I never took it. cuz I'm like I don't need any god darn. caffeine. Um but yeah, I don't know. I. think it I I looked it up. It I I don't. know. I don't know if I if it's like you.

can say what it does, but it apparently. just like boosts your dopamine or like. pushes dopamine into your brain. Give it. a try. Give it a try. I I like it. And. um yeah, it gets it gets me charged, man. I take it. It's a very Here's the. thing, too. I'm very uh I'm very prone. to just taking stuff and being like, "Oh, I think it's working." But I gave. it to my brother. I I guinea pig my. brother Swim, who's no stranger to. chemicals and chemical compounds, who. has a heartier constitution than me. >> And he even was like, "Bro, this stuff's. got me kind of it's got me moving and. grooving." So, hey, look, we did it with.

that science right there. Did a [ __ ]. study on myself and my brother and Spud. and we all were like, "Damn, this [ __ ]. [ __ ] rips." So, get it yourself. Try. it out. Try it out. All right. Alphabrain is a daily supplement with. sciencebacked ingredients like. eltheanine designed to support memory. and focus so you can lock in, tune out. distractions, and stay sharp. Visit. onit.com and shop Alphabrain to unlock. your next level. That's on.com. And yeah, I I literally take it every. day now. I like it. Go ahead, Sean. You.

have to plug your show. >> Yeah, thank you. >> Of course. >> Hello. >> It's what we do it for. >> Hello everybody. This is Sean. I just wanted to let you. know one last time that I'll be in Salt. Lake City this weekend, Friday and. Saturday, with Nate Marshall, March 27th. and 28th. Tickets are at shaardini.com. Please come. There are plenty of tickets. available to these shows. So many. tickets. And we'll be at the Houston Riot Fest. the week after that, April 3rd and 4.

And then noctis is after that at the. creek in the cave. So please come. tickets at shanardini.com or lamarly.f. fun and and you shanemgillis.com too. >> Sell out the link. >> Thank you guys. >> Thank you man. >> Of course, guys. Um Oh, man. This leg of. the tour is winding down on April 10th. I'll be in St. Paul, Minnesota at the. Fitzgerald Theater. >> Home. >> It's all good. >> What you guys need? >> I just My red light was on when you were.

reading it. >> Oh, you're fine. Ain't no big thing. It's just getting the audio out to the. people. Sorry. >> Um, also 4:11, the next day after I. leave Minnesota, I'm going to Dez Moy's. Iowa, uh, Hoy Sherman place. Whatever. I'll be there at 4:11. So, Iowa, Minnesota. I have shows there. Let's go. Let's finish this out strong, guys. What. do you say? And then also, [ __ ]. Phoenix, man. Celebrity Theater, guys. Come on. It's in the round. It's a cool. place. Don't embarrass me. Oh, yeah.

Guardian will be there. [ __ ] It's. going to be a blast. By the way, I come. alive in the round if I'm being honest. I I've done the round with Shane. I love. it. So, please guys, please please. please. Um otherwise, I'm I'll literally. I'll just pay to get feed seat fillers. and I'll I don't [ __ ] care. I'm going. to have a good show in the round one way. or the other, guy. And I'll pay them to. laugh at me, too. That's 417, guys. 418. I'll be in Tucson, Arizona. And uh yeah, let's let's get it going. Also, uh I'll. be in Toronto. We have two shows in.

Toronto. Both of them are one of them's. definitely sold out. The second one's. dang near sold out. So, might add a. third. I don't know. Uh, Riviera Theater. Chicago. Yeah, let's go get that. I. think that's going to sell out, guys. That's in April. Um, there's been a. rumor about adding a possible, if that. sells out, an 11:00 show at Zy's secret. show. We'll see. I don't know. I don't. know. We'll see. We'll see. We'll see. We'll see. >> Going to see the shout out. >> [ __ ] yeah. But yeah, guys, go to. mammcusker.com. That That took way too. long. Just uh six shows left before I. chill for the summer.

Thank you. >> Question ever get to meet the. Amazonians. >> Oh, that's a good question. Oh, so. >> Oh, yeah. The Okay, we're bringing up. the fabled Amazon wars. >> Oh, the women. Um Oh, I thought because. there everybody who lives there is. considered an Amazonian now, but um. true. There's different tribes. So, yeah, the the Amazon women. That's an. interesting and um perplexing myth and. story. Um. >> I didn't meet any. I was looking for. them.

>> Warriors. We're talking about the. warriors. >> Amazon women warriors. Yeah. >> But they had their breasts in the. jungle. Whereas the Greek the Greek. that's where the term comes from, right? They're Greek women who would they like. strap their breast down. >> Yeah. >> tie them down so they could shoot the. arrow. >> But what I loved about that story in the. Black Sea is that they and this persists. too in the Amazon basin is that they. would take men um mate with them. >> Yeah, I know. and then like tell them to. [ __ ] off and then they just have the. women on the island that were like we're.

using you as you know you're just. procreators man. >> fantasy it's a collective male fantasy. >> get out of here we're done with you. >> done with you. >> go do [ __ ] in the jungle with your. friends I have no use for you right now. >> go hunt it. >> well that was the question that was kind. of what I was thinking about just. yesterday I was I was reading it and uh. so you have the you know because the. concisadors had the fabled myth of El. Dorado the you know the the kingdom. kingdom of gold and all this stuff. And. that was kind of the the myth that was. like a myth that was driving them, but.

like why would I think you might have. just answered the question, but why. would these Amazonian people all make up. a myth of like powerful female warriors, >> right? >> Obviously, I mean, there's the sexual. thing of them like abducting you from. your village and taking you to have sex. with you, whatever, and dropping you. back off, >> but it's like it is just a weird. collective myth to have all these people. in the jungle form of like powerful. women warriors. Yeah. >> Especially back then. Now I'd be like, "Yeah, I get why people would do that.". But like. back then in the [ __ ] 1500s, like why. why would they all do that and like all. agree that was a thing? Well, and also.

it it you know since it has persisted. for hundreds of years um I mean I love. the fact that this is where mythology. um becomes you kind of wonder like is. there a kernel of truth to this? because. you know with modern technology wouldn't. we have found them but I have to say in. the Amazon I mean when I came when I did. my journey and came out um and landed in. Iikitos Peru there there was an article. in the paper uh or you know online and.

it had images of you may have seen them. like there are uncontacted tribes still. and they're like painted orange and you. know helicopters or whatever small. planes are flying over to check them out. and they're just standing there with. spears going, you know, land, please do. [ __ ] you. You know, see how that goes. Navy Seal, but but uh you know, they. >> I mean, I think they would do all right. with their guns and [ __ ]. >> Yeah, they probably would. >> But for me, the point was like, well,

okay, if there are if there remain. uncontacted tribes, um even in, you. know, I was down there in 2008. Um. >> they're still today are uncontacted. tribes. Um, and so it's so vast and of. course, you know, it's being imperiled. by logging and farming and all this. stuff, but there's still it's so vast. that there's if there are pockets of. people that have lived the same way for. thousands of years and and then there's. myths about these particular w female.

tribes that are warriors and don't want. to be messed with. To me, there's a I. have to believe that it's possible. >> Yeah. Well, the guy in the book saw. them. He fought them. So it was like. they were they were paler they were like. lighter skinned tall women that had a. bunch of like short guys they were. bossing around first. I love and if you don't and if you if. you puss out. >> we're [ __ ] killing you. Yeah. >> that holds that still holds to this day. >> Yeah. >> How do I tell you about you better keep.

fighting them? >> Yep. I might have an Amazonian in my. house. I'm the last Amazonian. >> Why don't you pick up your shirt off the. floor? Don't back down. >> No, that uh yeah, it was and it's just. such a funny thing because you hear, you. know, they're like while they're. floating around the river, it's like. there's these tales of Amazon women. warriors and you're like, you know, you're like, okay, it's just like a. fable. Then they actually battle them. and you're like, what the [ __ ] was that. all about? That's. >> and killed a couple. >> Yeah. Yeah. They killed almost all of. them. >> That was shocking. You didn't take one.

of them prisoner. >> I know. It was silly, you know, cuz if. you look back to what Cortez did and you. know, there's also um there's albinos. that come into camp one time. Yeah, that. was a weird one, too. Tall albino. >> These tall albino dudes um you know, they may have been pituitary giants or. something which um what is a pituitary? What is that? >> Well, like you grow really fast and uh. and your usually they're marked by. having a really big head. Actually, I. played rugby for seven years and one of. our um one of our best players in the. scrum was a pit a pituitary giant. Um so.

he was like. >> huge like Andre the giant. Okay. So your. glands just produced to have on your. rugby team. >> I would imagine. Yeah. Giant. I mean, that was like medieval battle and. everything. It's [ __ ] awesome. >> And he had you like he talked like that. >> I'd be pissed if he didn't. Honestly, if. I had a giant with a soft voice, I'd be. like, "It's bullshit.". >> Howdy. But. >> Cortez had the wherewithal to like snag. some of these um you know, specimens uh.

and take them home to England or pardon. me to Spain. Yeah. >> And he would be like, I want to show the. king what is here. And so there were. like dwarfs and albinos and some of them. he, you know, absconded with, put them. on a ship and sent them with the, you. know, with the royal fifth of gold that. they were required to send back and was. like, check them out. Like this place is. rad, you know? >> That's crazy. Just sending up just a. bunch of treasure. Then like essentially. like an old freak show. Just hit him.

with like he was like you open a chest. and like dudes midgetes pop out. You're. like, "Whoa, the hell is this?". >> But in fairness to Oriana, he he didn't. have like, you know, he was just trying. not to die and get down the river. So, he didn't have the capacity to put them. in the boat. I mean, he was trying to. feed his own men. And. >> yeah, true. >> Cortez was like, "Okay, we're going to. put these guys on ships and send them. back and show what I'm taking over." The. worst story of all I think from River of. Darkness is when they landed in that. village and it was just women there and.

they took over the village and just all. just slept with these ladies. Raped him. obviously. Let's be let's not let's be. frank about it. >> And but then the guys then all their. husbands came home from a trip to just. see these like people they've never seen. before all with their wives and their. huts and it was just like dude that's. the most insane thing you could possibly. imagine. >> I know. >> Everyone goes out to work. You come home. and everyone's wife is now being. detained by like a strange being. You've. never. >> spend my whole day at the turtle farm.

and come home to this. You know, I know. you've been farming turtles all day. >> And I was. so funny. I was chuck. I was chuckling too at what you guys. were talking about how they named. everything you know and the one place. they you call you know you read it in. the part three or whatever and it's like. um it was like um place of the of the.

burned people and I was thinking it. should have been called the place where. we burned people you know like they. didn't want to name it what it really. was. yeah I also love when he they called it. when he had like that Gonzalo Bizaro had. a bad march and it named the worst march. ever through the jungle. Literally, that. was a literal term. >> Yeah, >> this was the worst march ever through. the jungle. >> Like, okay, >> there have been a lot of bad ones. >> This one worst. >> Worst ever, you know. >> Well, it is pretty bad when when he gets. back and he's like literally in, you.

know, skins and barefoot. You know, the. fact that any of those. >> The wor the worst is them. I didn't know. you could do this with a horse. You cut. it open, drink the blood as needed, and. then you pack it full of mud and it's. just like a walking. >> It's just like a food truck. You just. kind of walk you would cut slivers, cook. a sliver of it, eat it, and just let it. keep walking as you're eating it. It was. like, h. >> yeah, that was grim. I I was listening. to it a little bit on the plane and I'm. like, God, I forgot about that. You. know, it's just um what people will do.

And you know, I have to say um there. wasn't much cannibalism in the. concisador tales, but um in if you. really if you like cannibalism, as you. get to the. as you get to the uh the Arctic stuff. >> Lot of cannibalism. >> A lot of cannibalism. >> Yeah. And that was the real because. that's the that's the funny thing too. cuz I you know whenever I'm like I'll. like organize notes for things and I'll. use like you know Grock or Clawude and. they're always like by the way they. didn't sustain themselves on. cannibalism. It was for ceremonies. It's. like okay dude they're still eating like. don't like nice it up like it was.

church. Okay. >> But so that artic was like they needed. to munch guys. That was like sustain. That was like sustaining. >> Yeah. And you know, you're talking about. a different um like the idea was that. the explorers coming from from Europe. and North America were like, you know, it was taboo. Um in different cultures, it's less less so, you know. I mean, um. >> and it does beg the question. I I've. been asked that at book readings, like, would you eat uh human flesh? And. >> it's always one guy at a book reading.

>> Yeah. >> Would you ever eat a person? >> Mr. Ly, would you eat a person? >> If I died, >> your f. I'm going to I mean, >> what do you say to that when someone. asks you that? >> I say, "Would you um. >> touch?". >> I mean, it depends on how if it was your. [ __ ] homie, you know, like how well. do you know him? >> True. >> You know, >> is it a guy or a girl? I would I would. need a guy personally. >> Yeah, I would I would personally.

>> Oh, man. Unless it was a powerful. warrior, I would need a powerful. warrior. >> Yeah. I mean, I think at a certain. point, um, I would, you know. >> Yeah. Obviously, if you get hungry. enough, Yeah. for sure. >> You know, you're delirious with hunger. and it's like it's meat. >> Yeah. >> If I were a vegan, I would say no. >> I I have a cupboard full of like cereal. and all this stuff and I'll be not. hungry and I don't want to eat the. cereal and I'll eat the cereal. If I was. starving to death, I would totally eat a. person. >> Yeah. Like, no. Not even not a question.

>> Yeah. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Then I. literally would eat every person, everyone here. I think you guys are. great, but if I got hungry, no. >> But so it gets kind of grim. >> I would try. >> It gets kind of grim because then it. becomes a question of okay, if they're. already dead. >> Yeah. >> Like let's say they starve to death and. then they don't have uh and they're. which happens in a couple of my books. where, you know, they're they're dead. already. They've starved. Uh so. >> bad eating.

>> You're looking around. Okay, not a lot. you know, we've already gone out hunting. and we haven't found anything and there. there's a guy. >> Yeah. >> Um starving, >> you know. Um are we gonna are we gonna. do it? And um versus are you going to, you know, kill someone to eat them, which is a different. >> Yeah. >> thing for me. Well, this went dark. >> No, that's No, I I I hear what you're. saying because if someone starves to. death and now you got to split up your. friend with all your other friends to. eat them, but it's like they doesn't. have a lot of meat on them, >> right? >> Next person starts lagging like we can.

just eat this guy now. and get a better. meal out of it. >> Yeah. And then in some cases what. happens is like they start looking. around. This happens in in that book. actually um uh or in Labyrinth of Ice. So one guy, you know, everybody else is. like emaciated sort of walking dead. situation on the ice and and then you've. got like one guy who's like. >> 200 lb. It looks like he's just come. from CrossFit, you know, and they're. like, "What the [ __ ] is up with him? Like what why is he so, you know, burly?" Mhm. >> And they realize, well, he's been going.

off to the the title crack where they've. been throwing the dead people and like. feeding at night, you know, >> feeding at the title crack. He's just. jacked and ripped. >> And that guy, it doesn't go well for. him. I. >> So, it was he kind of gave himself away. by being like, man, I'm just different. I'm just built different. This is crazy. It's just crazy genetics. >> So, he was just sneaking off at night. time and just frying up the guys. And. >> Yes. And then uh but but the commander, this was an army uh expedition, and the. commander figures it out, Adulus Greley,

and he's like um I don't I don't I hate. giving stuff away, but whatever. But he. ends up going, okay, >> he catches him um stealing food. >> And then he says, "Okay, we're going to. take three guys out there and um Henry, that's his name, Henry's got to go. because he's eating what little food we. have left." And so they do a thing where. >> oh he was munching the food reserves. >> after and and dead people. >> and the people. >> And so then he's like uh we you know. we'll all die if Henry keeps eating.

everything. So they have an execution. and they just like go out there and you. know. >> I got to say that's not very fat. positive of them. >> Henry can't tell that he was hungry. >> Yeah. Yeah. And Henry was body shaming. people, you know. >> That's fair. Damn. So he was this. >> So they executed him, but you know, they. wanted to not know who who did it. So. they gley put like blanks in two of the. guns and then a live round in the other. one. >> and all fired. >> They all fired on him and. >> dang then they had to report it to the.

if they you know they some survived. Um. so then they had to like write a report. of like yeah we. >> took out Henry. >> made to kill him. >> Sorry. >> That's what you get, man. You can't be. doing that on the expedition. >> No, it's bad form. Bad team player. That's a terrible That's a terrible team. player. >> Yeah. >> Think it's all about himself. >> There's no eye in team. Henry, >> you know. >> Dang, that's awesome. So, what is like. So, out of all the expeditions you've. done, what are they? You've done the. Amazon, Arctic,

>> Well, also I went to Borneo. Um, this. was I think I mentioned you. I had. followed these crazy uh multisport. adventure racers around the world for. about seven years and um this was run by. Mark Bernett, the guy who created. Survivor the Apprentice. Um and so I was. doing some research and I was right I. was a journalist then writing about. these sports. Um, and the fir one of the. ones I went to was in Borneo, which is, you know, northern Malaysia Islands. And.

that was super intense because, and it. was actually during this race where Mark. Bernett found the island that was the. first Survivor Island where the first. competition happened, however many. >> like 112 seasons of Survivor ago or. whatever it's been. >> Um, and so we, this was really. incredible. We were we were following. these racers around and we were in boats. u motorboats but we would sleep on. islands right and I had heard my friend.

is trying to freak me out. He's like, "Yeah, Borneo, that's where the head. hunters are, right?". >> So I like, "Yeah, >> really?" Uh, and he he's like, "Well, they're they're south. They're south of. where you're going to be, you know?" And. I'm like, "Oh, good." And he said, "But. you know, Borneo has like some of the. most u toxic snakes in the world." And. also, um, so at one point I'm on this. island, um, and we were like waiting to. go to the next island and we camped out. there, right? This is couldn't have a. hammock there because no trees. And so I.

had heard about this sea crate, K R A I. T, which is like one of the most toxic. snakes in the world, right? And I mean, if if it bites you, I think you have. like hours to to live really. >> So we're like, get to this island. It. was beautiful. We're all setting up. camping. This one guy, we had this. MacGyver dude named Bridto. He's British. and his nickname was Bridto, which isn't. that um clever, but that's just what we. called him. Um, but Bridto, it turns. out, was really scared of snakes, right?

So, we had seen a couple. They're water. snakes, so it's freaky because you we. had to uh anchor out like it's shallow. We anchored like 200, 300 yards from the. island, and then. >> you couldn't get into shore cuz it would. break, you know. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> [ __ ] up the boat. Um, so we're like. carrying all our crap through the water, seeing occasional slithers, going, "God. damn." And and so when we got to shore, Brittle was like, I buddy, I'm [ __ ]. so scared of snakes. And I'm like, okay, well, you know, just stay away from.

them. But we we ended up like so in the. middle of the night, I so I set up my. tent and in the middle of the night, I. feel some like next to me and the dude. is spooning me, you know, and and. listen, I'm okay with spooning, you. know, but uh the guy I I'm like, what. the [ __ ] are you doing? He's like, I. can't take it. I can't be out there. And. then I showed him, I go, "Well, it's not. going to help you that much in here." My. tent had like a little hole in the. corner. And I'm like, "The the sea. crate's going to come, right?" Cuz they. look for warmth, too,

>> you know? And I'm like, >> they they're they're water snakes. >> Yeah, they're water snake, but they can. come on. They're amphibious. >> It's not a good. >> He's It's also like, "Don't be next to. me. We're going to you know, >> right?". >> She'd be like, "I'm afraid of snakes, too, bro. Back up, man. Get off your. butt, dude. >> Get your snake away from me." Uh but. but and then I I went the next day I go. I go like. >> I think he made it all up to get close. to you. Honestly, >> he probably did. >> Help me. Help me, buddy.

>> Yeah. So the next day I went out to to. take a leak and I'm like I see the. movement in the scrub, you know, and I'm. like, "What the is that?" And it was. like a it was a it turns out to it was a. >> a monitor lizard, which are next to the. Komodo dragon. The monitor is the second. largest reptile in the world. I mean, there's like from me to these guys, you. know, and it's like a Shetland pony. elongated size lizard, you know, and. you're like.

>> and they're kind of gnarly, too. I mean, you know, if you don't spook them or. something, you're good. But like it all. just makes you um nervous, you know. We. went. >> It's technically a dinosaur. A lizard. the size of a Shetland pony. That's a. dino. >> Yeah. and you're out there in this. Jurassic Park situation and you know. you're just trying to just trying to. make a living. >> That's [ __ ] terrible. And then how. how you're just on that island for a. day? >> Yeah. And then we were like went off to. the next I mean it was like a a 10 or 12. day long race and we also had to uh. crawl through um they had this really.

cool section of the race where they had. to there are these bat caves that are. really famous and they're um they're. huge. You you go through these like you. crawl through these tunnels to get. inside the big cavern and they're. massive. And then there's these batcaves. that actually are the um the local. population. They harvest these birds. They're kind of like a a swallow. They're called swifts. They they harvest. there's a they go up on these like uh. vine ladders to harvest the eggs from.

these swift birds. It's like a medicinal. aphrodesiac situation. >> What? >> Uh yeah. Every every single place has. their like I swear like give you this is. like the tree bark liquor or whatever. >> Every single civilization has their own. like boner medication. >> You got to have it. Hey, I turned 40. this year. I'm in the thick of it, bro. I'm like. >> it's finally come for me. >> But so yeah, then you're crawling. It. was kind of nasty. I'm I'm not I'm not. I'm not against bats or anything, but. like when you're And you guys I know. Congress you got bats. Um, but you had.

to crawl through like tunnels of bat. guano, like you know, centuries of bats. [ __ ] there to get into the cavern. place. And then as part of the race, the. racers had to go through there and then. um climb up this huge uh like escarpment. and then like repel down the other side, right? >> So, you know, you're just coming out of. there going, "God, did I pick the wrong. gig?" Like I'm covered in batshit, you. know, >> which it's not good.

>> No. Can you get sick? It's like is it. like bird I know bird [ __ ] you can get. really sick of. >> Yeah. You back on um you don't want to. eat it. >> True. Fair enough. >> But no, it has uh you can get sick. >> Well, because the bird bird [ __ ] what. happens is it dries and then you hit. something and it goes up in the air and. then as soon as you breathe it in it. become that like when it gets wet that's. when it kind of messes you up. Like. whatever I think moisture activates the. could just been I was working with my. dad. We were doing the thing with pigeon. [ __ ] He might have been making this all. up, but he was just like, "Moisture. activates the germs in bird [ __ ].

>> It's like a hu virus, you know. Don't be. snorting that.". >> That's pretty cool, though. So, what do. you um What do you have? What do you. have like cooking up? What's your What's. your next. >> Well, I'm doing a I'm doing a fourth. Arctic book because I am the master of. the Arctic. >> You are the master of the Arctic. >> Uh, as it turns out, >> Antarctic. I'm claiming Antarctic. I'm. going to go to the Antarctic. >> Yeah, I'm beat you to Well, my editor. I'm I'm actually This is avoidance. behavior right here because I'm I am. working on a new book and it's a it's. about uh so you may have heard of uh.

John Franklin who um this Franklin. expedition that went off and the two. boats uh ships got stuck in the ice and. then. >> uh he never came home. He had 120 Well, did you have you guys heard about the. Terror? Uh it's an AMC show called The. Terror. That was a huge deal. But. anyway, >> um these two ships got stuck in the ice. and then nobody came home and so his. wife, Lady Jane Franklin, sent for like. 20 years sent expeditions to go try to. find them and half of those people died. Um but those two ships were recently. found in like 2017 and 2014 because of.

Inuit oral history. They said, "We we. saw, you know, their ancestors said, "We. saw these boats where they went down.". And they they ended up using. submersibles to go find both those. ships. And it it helped solve the. problem or the questions about what. happened. And in fact, cannibalism um. occurred. >> Of course, >> 129 men perished. Um. >> but that's not what my book's about. >> Yeah. Yeah. True. >> My book's about the first Franklin. expedition. >> You're giving it away. What the hell? >> Yeah. uh is about the first Franklin.

expedition in northern Canada uh which. is an overland journey in cano like. 5,000 miles on foot and canoes with um. Da Yellow Knive um indigenous people. It. was during the time of the Hudson Bay. Company and the Northwest fur traders, right? And so it's 1819. >> and it's just this incredible ordeal. where they're trying to figure out where. the Northwest Passage is. In fact, almost all this stuff was related to. finding the Northwest Passage, these. Arctic, many of the Arctic tales. And um.

it's just an incredible ordeal. >> What was what's the Northwest Passage? >> It they were trying to find a seaw route. instead of having to go all the way. around to Asia. You could you could go. quicker from Europe through through this. all these islands north of Canada. Yeah. >> But it's really hard to navigate and. half the time it's um frozen and not. navigable. And so it took centuries to. figure out that it's not practical. And. you can't do it. >> Many people I mean with with global.

warming it's becoming open uh longer. I. mean if you believe in global warming. but you know it it's um it's still not. it's too uh ciruitous to get through. quickly and it doesn't really solve the. problem but it took them a long time and. many uh lives to come to this. realization. It. >> sucks. A lot of those guys too, I've. noticed when they whenever whenever. someone has like a successful voyage and. they try to do the second one, it never. works out besides I feel like. Christopher Columbus is the only guy who. kind of like I don't even know what.

happened to him ultimately. >> He gets Yeah. Like where where the. journeys improve. >> Yeah. He just kind of just I I don't. know if this is true. I I was talking to. somebody months ago about Christopher. Columbus who was a history teacher and. he was saying that Christopher Columbus. when he first got to what was it like. Hispanola or whatever there were the. people there I forget the name of them. they were like you know he famously was. like they're super docile blah blah blah. apparently he would just like hop on. their back and make them piggyback him. around the aisle which is so. disrespectful he'd be like I'm tired and.

just piggy back they would just carry. him around. >> you look fit. That's disrespect. I thought that was. crazy out of all. I mean, there's. obviously all of them did a lot of. terrible things, but that would just. >> If a grown man was like, "All right, come on. Let me hop up. Let me hop on. you real quick." I'd be like, "It's. [ __ ] bullshit.". >> Yeah. I. >> But he he made it. He was the only guy I. feel like he did. I mean, I'm sure there. are others, but he had like multiple. successful expeditions, right?

>> Yes. Yeah. >> He was all over the place. >> Yeah. But you're right. They they tend. to end poorly. I mean, even in the case. of Oriana and River of Darkness, like. you he thought like what he learned. going down the river would have helped. and then the return voyage was. disastrous, right? >> Well, plus you can't figure out um where. you're going, you know, like because the. mouth is so wide. >> One of the staggering facts that I I I. wrote it I I'm going to have to confirm. this after we are done here if it's. actually true. Um that there's an island. at the mouth that's the size of.

Switzerland. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> That's insane. Can we already look that. up? >> I think there I think I think that is. >> it'll probably quote me. >> No, I I I swear to God I think that's. the case. >> Yeah. And it's it's so imagine Oriana. arriving back there with his child. bride, you know. Um and. >> he did bring a child bride on the return. voyage, which is crazy. >> And they're like, we're going back up. and we're going to mostly visit the. places that were nice to us. >> Yeah. Maro Island. >> Yeah, that's insane. And it I forgot. about that. And the he survives it and.

then brings a child bride. Honeymoons. The child bride. >> A great honeymoon. She'll love it. >> Crazy. Crazy. Just dies in front of her. >> Brazil's nice this time of year, you. know. >> Yeah. I I do like learning about those. little like um those weird like. waterways like the Bokea de Serpiente. and the Bokea de Draon where they got to. like navigate these weird rocky channels. with like wetlands through. >> where was that? like the Trinidadian. coast. >> Yeah. Mangrove swamps and everything.

>> [ __ ] it sucks. >> Yeah. I mean. >> that that would suck so especially just. to learn where you're at. Like the place. we're in is called the mouth of the. dragon. I'd be like [ __ ] [ __ ] [ __ ]. >> I wonder why they call it that. >> Well, buddy, this was great. Thank you. so much. Um, is there anything else you. have or anything you'd like people to. know or any of that stuff? Talking. business? >> No, man. Just I really appreciate being. here. It's It's been a blast and uh I'm.

going to keep writing these things until. I'm um weak and infirm and need to feed. on a friend. >> There you go. There you go. >> Well, thank you so much. >> My pleasure, man. >> See you, buddy. >> Take care. >> Watch new episodes of Matt and Shane. Secret podcast on Spotify. >> Do it.