Ep 602 - Future Man (feat. Kevin Ashton)

The wild wild west. Hey, what's up? What's up? What's up? What's going on. everybody? I'm already fumbling over my. [ __ ] words, dude. I suck. I'm here. with Kevin Ashton. How you doing, man? I'm good. How are you? Pretty good. So, how would you define yourself? Obviously, author, Yeah. futurist, futurist, >> You think you're old now? >> Oh, god, yeah. What? 57. 57? >> 57. >> I'm I'm I'm not I'm not too far behind. I'm 40. Oh, well, that's young. 40 I I. think 40 is young. I still feel like a. boy. Like there's never the switch has. never occurred to where I'm like A.

little bit I feel like a man. I go in. the grocery store, they're playing the. music I danced to when I was a kid. Really? >> That's That makes you feel old. Oh, when. it's in the grocery store. Yeah, it's. like the music now. >> Yeah, yeah. So, what what was your what was your. music back in the day? What what was. your go-to? >> Oh, I was pretty sure I was a jazz funk. guy. >> Really? Yeah. Jazz funk, when. Like no, it's like the it's a British. name for like R&B, basically. So, like. Mhm. mid '80s was like Luther Vandross. Ooh. Yeah. You're smooth.

>> brother. Oh, yeah. >> [laughter]. >> All the working class kids in London, that's what we There you go. Nice. >> kids like, you know, the punky stuff, but we were Hey, so I got to ask you. then, is it true cuz I I I have a friend. who's from London and he loves soccer. Okay. And I I, you know, naturally, in. in America, soccer's looked at as a. sport kind of for girls. You know what I mean? Like it's. >> Not so much now, though. Yeah, not so. much. When I I was trying to explain to. him when I grew up, it was like. Like we everyone played football. That's. what we we call American American.

football football. And I was like, you. know, I was I was just kind of getting. under his skin. I was like, it's kind of. for like weak guys and girls. And he was. just like, nah. And I was cuz I played. rugby. He's like, rugby's for the posh. boys. And he was That's true. And so, it's true? Yeah. Rugby's such a more. brutal sport It's such a more brutal. sport. Why is it for the posh boys? It's. just the way the school system I mean, I. I was like it was suggested that I go to. like the posh school in town. And but they didn't play soccer, they. played rugby. And there was just I was. like 11. There was no way Really? >> I was going to school that didn't play.

soccer. So, it's kind Okay, so it's. almost like you over there it's like. like if someone played water polo over. here, that would be very posh. >> like lacrosse maybe. Lacrosse isn't very. It's not posh. It's It's Yeah, I I can. see that. >> New England, I feel like. >> Yeah, you know you're right. Lacrosse. bros are I would say borderline posh. boys as well. >> So, cricket and rugby are like the posh. Yeah, I feel ashamed to play the posh. sport. I thought I was flexing on him. He was like, "Oh, that's for posh boys.". >> soccer on the street corner. Yeah. >> You know, you just toss down your. sweaters and you got a ball and you're. away. You can't do that You can't quite.

do that with rugby, you know. Yeah, you'd have to play like touch. You'd be. like seven. >> on that street and it would Yeah, it. would be Yeah. Well, [ __ ] you're right. I was hoping I would uh he would get. overturned, but that's completely true. Yeah. Dang. Well, >> Sorry. Thank you for coming to the. podcast. So, okay. So, futurist, how do. you get the futurist title? Oh. So, that's like a thing. Like you. can't study at school, right? That you. There's no like major futurism. I mean, I It's not a word I use about. myself so much, I guess, but yeah, I I. mean, I started a lab at MIT Okay. in.

the late '90s. That's why I came to the. US. And. like I had this idea. that I called the Internet of Things. >> Yeah. And everybody thought it What the. hell is that? It's crazy. And they. they're all interested in like the. dot-com boom and everything. But, you. know, we got lucky and our research did. well. And now the Internet of Things is. everywhere. So, you kind of I guess when you have a. stupid idea and it comes true, you you. move from being like an idiot to a. futurist. >> Futurist. That's awesome. >> [laughter]. >> Well, it's funny cuz I I watched a video.

and and the origin of the Internet of. Things, you know, which we'll explain in a. second cuz I I always heard that term. and I I There's something about it. I'm. like, "Man, I love that term." I had no. idea what you were talking about. I just. like I was just like it's like the. Internet I had this nebulous idea in my. head. I'm like, "It's like the Internet. and just [ __ ] stuff." And it all I I. didn't know what it exactly was. You. came up with the term you're pitching a. thing for Proctor & Gamble, right? I saw. that and you you you it sounded like you. kind of just like pulled it out of your. ass. You're like, "I want to I wanted to.

like cuz you wanted to what? Like make. them use the internet for their supply. chain and make it. >> Yeah. And like honestly, it sounds crazy. now, but the senior executives didn't. even do email. Yeah. >> Like you sent them an email. and it came back in the internal mail. Most people won't know what the hell. that is, but like a special reusable. envelope. Their their secretary had. printed it out and they'd like write a. reply to your email. Like that's how. technical these guys were in the. mid-90s. And then suddenly they they'd heard. about the internet.

And it was kind of like the thing you. had to to know about. >> Yeah. So like I already had this idea. for like like putting chips and things. in in the product so we could know where. they were. But they didn't want to get. in that. So I figured if I could put the. word internet in there somehow. then you know they'd be interested. >> you just tacked on of things. Yeah. Kind. of awesome. That's like I mean really. like [laughter] what am I going to call. this PowerPoint presentation? How about. this? Internet of Things. >> here we are now 30 years later. >> Yeah, that's cool cuz then like that.

idea for the presentation became almost. like a career launching point. >> did. Yeah. That's insane. >> And I have to pretend like it was like. some real. >> [laughter]. >> But the best you ask about what is the. Internet of Things. So have you heard of. teledildonics? Who? Teledildonics. Have you heard of. Teledildonics? No, I have no idea what. the hell that is. This is my favorite. People say what's the Internet of. Things? I say teledildonics. It's the. Internet of Things of sex toys. Oh, okay. >> Like vibrators you can like turn on from. like the internet anywhere in the world. Oh, the vibrating butt plug. Yeah, yeah.

The vibrating app. But but like you know. through through Wi-Fi or your phone. >> how you define the Internet of Things. You're like That's that is one of the. first killer apps of the Internet of. Things. They're the They're always the. first adopters of everything. And just. so And just to explain it cuz again, I. feel like if you're it's it's a similar. idea than you think. It's just using. attaching sensors to things that are. connected to the internet and then can. bring in information. You plug in the. wall into the internet. >> So, here w-. Did you come up with that idea or you. just describing the practice to these.

guys and you coined the term? >> one of like there was a small room full. of people who all came up with similar. ideas about the same time. Yeah. But. like the internet was new, it was. dial-up, it was kind of crappy. >> Yeah. You know, we didn't have graphics. really or any So, the idea of using the. internet for like anything past like. email was kind of on the wild side of. things back then. >> Yeah. So, yeah, but like plugging the real. world into the internet so you knew. where stuff was. So, like you could have. these like self-driving cars that like. know where they are and are.

communicating with your phone and stuff. like Yeah, and and this was before. Wi-Fi. Oh, dude, that must have sounded. insane in 19-. >> I I yeah, 1995. Yeah. People thought it. was It was like maybe '97, but like. yeah. People like, "What the hell?" This. is why it's called the internet of. things. True. Cuz like at least I could. They wanted to pretend they knew what. the internet was. Yeah. So, you just like write on that. That's. That's pretty cool. So, that that was. The whole idea was you, you know, back. in the day you'd have these companies or. advise them to attach basically just.

sensors to regular objects. >> Yeah. So, then those sensors could then. gather data. Yeah. Which basically So, and this was before the smartphone then. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. >> Just way before the smartphone. >> was a like business systems. Like we got. a lot of money from the defense. department cuz you know, you go to war, Yeah. you got to have enough stuff. >> Yeah, where the hell are my bombs? Where. the hell did I put those bombs? >> is one thing, but like you know, soda. cans and like body bags, bibles, you. know, toothbrushes. >> So, all that stuff. >> You've got to know where it all is. And. so, you know, that was one of the first.

like obvious applications. It was just. like logistics. Yeah. That's where all. the money came from to fund it. But. yeah, then a few years later you got the. smartphone and it becomes easier to put. it in. everybody's pocket. Yeah, so how did. that like, you know, were you kind of. following the development of the. smartphone or did that just come out and. you're like, "Hey.". Yeah, I mean, it's funny. I was um. I guess I can say the name now. Like I. was I was. on the board the research board of. Motorola. Okay.

And we were trying to explain to them. this is like the flip phone. Mhm. And. one of the perks was I gave you their. best phone every year. So I always had like the quote unquote. best Motorola phone. It's terrible. [laughter]. Like you didn't like the RAZR, the flip. RAZR? It was awful. I mean, the funny. [laughter] thing is like Motorola even. had a partnership with Apple before the. iPhone. Really? Yeah, it was called the. ROKR. Right, it was like an iPod in a Motorola. flip phone. Okay, woah. >> [ __ ] it up so badly that Steve Jobs.

was like, "Yeah, no." Oh, I don't want. anything to do with. >> do our own thing. >> [laughter]. >> We were trying to explain these me and. my like futurist were trying to explain. to them like you know, touch screens, graphic user interfaces, guys, sensors. Yeah. >> Have the phone like know when you pick. it up. Like this is not expensive. It's. not hard to do. And then the first the iPhone wasn't the. first one. Like LG came out with a thing. in Korea. Oh, okay. >> Six months before. >> That makes sense cuz I had a Droid way. before I had an iPhone. My first phone. was a Droid. Yeah, I think it was.

actually an LG. Yeah, and LG so LG had. this like it was called the Prada. Don't. ask me why. Okay. >> clothing company. Yeah. But it was it. was it was basically the same as an. iPhone. And then the iPhone came out. And I remember like I went back to the. Motorola guys with another meeting and. we were like, "So, you know that thing. we were telling you about for years? It's [laughter] happened, right? What do you think?" And that the head of. I swear to you the head of research. Motorola said, "Yeah, but it doesn't. have a very good microphone.".

Like people were like lining up around. the block to pay like a thousand dollars. for this phone they'd never even. touched, right? And this guy was like, "Well, it has a. crappy microphone." And that that was. kind of true. Yeah, okay. But who gave a. [ __ ]. >> Yeah. And then, you know, Motorola is. kind of not in business anymore. >> No, they and they were It's funny you. say that cuz they were like cell phones, they were like number one. It was Nokia, Yep, Nokia. >> Sony, all these guys. And probably in. all those companies there was somebody. saying, "Hey, this is what the future's. going to look like." Yeah. And they were.

like, "Yeah, no." So, yeah. So, who is. that? Yeah, who's a. >> Love you. Goodnight. This episode is. brought to you by ZipRecruiter. I always find it impressive when someone. can Hmm, let me talk about a skill I. find impressive or profession I. appreciate. For example, Olympic athletes and their. dedication to training, people can touch. their nose with their tongues, or. someone who can speak multiple. languages. Well, those are good prompts, but I just love a good accountant. Guys, one skill I've found tremendously. helpful in my life recently is Hmm,

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almost like there's like a super like. mystique around the iPhone where it was. like you know, it's just almost you. know, people a lot of times are like. jobs was just like taking acid in the. woods and was just like completely. tapped in. So that had been a slow. ongoing process. >> He he was a guy like you know, like a. really good DJ who like is just ahead of. the trends who like plays tune you. wouldn't have thought about but then you. realize it's actually he was that guy. for like tech. Like he he really had a. good eye for what was coming. And you know, and so what happened with.

the iPhone like and this is kind of what. we all saw. It was it wasn't really a. phone. Mhm. Phone was a thing. You know, if you. think about your smartphone now like how. often are you actually making a call? Yeah. Right? It's just one of your apps. It's all the others that you use it as a. camera, you use it as a video game, you. use it as you know, GPS mapping, whatever you use it for. >> Yeah. And and that's what he saw. You. know, so you got the iPod idea and the. online video idea and the phone idea and. the handheld video or just all stick it. into one thing. Yeah, and he really I I.

get him cuz I had the Droid first and I. you know, I was like and I I will say. there was something about when I would. like. tap it or touch it that when it would. buzz every time I did that it there were. I I don't know why that like made me. feel so happy. Every time it would like respond back to. me. I I don't know. I still like you. know, I had to turn off my phone cuz I. just I I do like those little noises. like boop boop boop boop. >> Oh, yeah. And if you watch the first. like presentation of the iPhone like way. back when like he swipes on the screen. Mhm. I think he gets a standing ovation. Yes. [laughter]. So funny.

We take it all for granted now, but. yeah, so it was it was fairly clear in. the late '90s, early 2000s that. something a bit like that was was going. to happen. >> Well, yeah, I That was my whole thing. Apple, like when I had the Droid for a. while, I'm like, this is cool, but Apple. was like it was like intuitive where I. was like, oh, this is so easy. Like I. don't have to spend time figuring it. out. I was just kind of like this makes. It's just so much easier to use. >> Yeah, cuz I mean Jobs wasn't really a. technical guy, you know, so he he was. kind of like our representative in the. in the room who's like, yeah, this is. too complicated. Yeah. Make it easier.

Make it easier. And then you end up. with, you know, what we have today, which is That's awesome. Yeah. Well, yeah, so the So, here's here's the. thing. So, okay, Internet of Things term. you coined. And what when you gave the meeting, were you like kind of aware that like, damn, I think I'm crushing it right now. or like this is a thing or you Did you. have You know what I mean? Like. Oh, man. This is It's a long time ago, so I could So, uh. the CEO wanted to see the talk at. Procter & Gamble. And I was in the UK. I.

don't think they realized that. Like I. got an email saying, yeah, come and see. the CEO like the day after tomorrow or. something. Procter & Gamble was based in. Cincinnati. I'd never even been to the US, right? Fortunately, I had a passport. So, like. I got a ticket. >> [snorts]. >> First place I ever went to the United. States was Cincinnati. >> That's pretty sick, actually. >> I was fairly disappointed. >> [laughter]. >> Um Right to Ohio. And I'm in this like. walnut paneled like boardroom kind of.

place. And. they all come in. Like there's a you. know, the CEO and all these other like. really senior guys. And I do my thing. And basically, we go around the room and. like all the other like the entourage. guys are like, yeah, that sucks. That'll. never work. I don't like it. I'm like, oh, damn, you know. But then the CEO's. like, well, I like it. I think it's a good idea. And funnily. enough, like it's like watching the. dominoes go down. Like all these guys. who I I swear had just been [ __ ] on. my idea.

>> Yeah. Like, yeah, you're right. That's a. really Yeah, what a. >> [laughter]. >> what a good idea. So, yeah, if it hadn't. been for Durk Iaga, wherever you are, thank you. If it hadn't been for for. that guy who was CEO of Procter at the. time, I don't know what would have. happened. But yeah, he got it. He said, yeah, we're going to pay for you to go. to MIT and make this real. Woah. So, like yeah, the first time I went to the. US was like Thanksgiving. Yeah. It was. was like Thanksgiving of '98. And then. by September 1st, '99, I was in the. Smithsonian Institution announcing the. Internet of Things to the world. And I.

lived in the US. Woah. >> happened really fast. >> Yeah, that's insane. >> Yeah, it was crazy. And they were like, well, let's give you we'll pay for you. to go to MIT and just figure this out. >> gave me money so I could fund the. research. Then we got a bunch of other. companies involved, and it just. snowballed. Well, and what did you do. before that? What what was your. >> I was a brand manager. I was uh I ran like part of the uh Oil. of Olay business for Procter & Gamble in. Europe. Yeah. >> Damn, you're slanging lotion. Yeah, I. was. I was like an expert on mascara. And you were like supply chain side of.

it. No, it's just the [ __ ] was never in. the store, and I got pissed off, and I. was like, why is my stuff never in the. store? Why is you know, why is this. particular color of lipstick that we. know everybody likes, a literally true. story, is never in the I go get my groceries, it's never [ __ ] there. And the first answer was, well, it's. just in that one store. And I'm like, yeah, no. There's no way. It's just the. store I go to is So, I did some. research. It wasn't anywhere. Like we. were paying all this money to advertise. it, you couldn't actually buy it. I. wanted to fix that problem.

>> It just wasn't getting there, basically. Yeah, I mean, it was it was in the back. or something, you know? I was at school. in like the early mid '90s, and like. like I had a computer when I was 10. I. had like a shitty home computer. You. know, like the age of like I don't know. if you've heard of like Commodore and. all those guys. I was at school in like. the early mid '90s, and like. like I had a computer when I was 10. I. had like a shitty home computer. You know, like the And I like a shitty. home computer. You know like the like I. don't know if you've heard of like. Commodore and all those kind of really. early computers. >> No, no, no. I only remember the Windows. and like that early Apple thing that was. like purple on top of it. >> So yeah, but my generation was like we. were the first kids to have computers at.

home. You had like you either had your. Atari video game system or you had. Commodore 64 home Didn't do very much, but like. >> a Commodore? I remember Atari. What was. a Commodore? >> Commodore 64 is like a keyboard that you. plugged into the TV and it had like. basic computer ability and you could. like. buy video games on cassette tapes and. like play them into the computer. But. like it would hit like sound like a fax. machine and it would like load. [laughter] it in and you could play some. little game. That's awesome. >> Yeah. No, so yeah, I just grew up with. computers. So like I was like well. there's got to be a This is an. information problem, right? There's got.

to be a solution. And like. there was. Ding. That's pretty cool. Yeah, it worked out. So then you walked. home that day like I I think I crushed. it. Like Did you have an idea like you. were just That day you were like. >> I went from there to a meeting at MIT. And I was having breakfast in the. Cambridge Marriott Hotel, which is at. that time was like the only hotel near. MIT. Yeah. And a senior guy from Procter. & Gamble Campbell came busting in to. find me at breakfast. And was like.

they've just approved for you to like. transfer to MIT. How quickly can you. move to the United States? And I was like. >> [ __ ] Uh how about 2 weeks? And they're. like yeah, sure. That's awesome. And I like went back to. my office and like the human resources. came in and they're like yeah, we we pay. for your apartment, we pay for your. plane, we pay for all this stuff. And. I'm like oh my god. So yeah, it was like it was life-change. That's insane. That's That's honestly. that's like a fantasy of mine. I always. wanted to go in a boardroom and hit them. with the you know million dollar idea. [laughter].

God, that's awesome. I would love that. Yeah, it I mean it landed, but like I'm. not kidding you like the first 5 minutes. of feedback were brutal. >> [laughter]. >> It is funny like nah, I don't like it. What what was there Do remember their. push back specifically they were just. like this will never work? It was just. like they had some [ __ ] Like I mean. the thing you always heard back in the. days was oh the laws of physics. You know, if you want to put a radio. microchip into like a bottle of. moisturizer, it's going to cost $10 and. and it won't work. And like this was. before Wi-Fi, it was before Bluetooth.

And there are a lot of people who are. convinced that you really couldn't send. data over radio. Okay. >> Or barely. Yeah. And that's crazy now. Like we think about like, you know, you. can download like a high-def movie on. your phone over like the cell network, right? >> Yeah, yeah. But in the '90s, it was like. yeah, that won't work. It's going to. cost too much. We already know where all. our stuff is anyway. I'm like no, you. don't. You know, you have a guy whose. job it was like to know. Mhm. And they. weren't going to be like yeah, you know, he's right. We actually have no [ __ ]. idea. True. So like this is not a.

problem. That was one of the, you know. So what are the How do they like who the. guy who knew where all the stuff was. back in the early '90s? They would just. call a warehouse manager and say did you. guys get that stuff? Well, they didn't. No. know like they'd know like down to. the nearest like million or something. Right? But what's I cuz I used to get. this like even after we got to MIT, we'd. have like CEO type guys come through and. we'd pitch them and they'd be like yeah, we already know where all our stuff is. And I'd be like okay. You sell this product and you've got a. store down the street in Boston.

How long would it take you to find out. how many of this one product are on the. shelf in that store? And they'd be like. uh yeah, well, you know. And that's the thing they couldn't do. it. >> Yeah, of course. I I I used to work in a. beer distributor in the When was this? The early 2000s and they the guy would. still walk around count every single. case of beer. He had a piece of paper. So I remember I stole a 12-pack from him. one time. And he could find He was like, did you uh. I was missing a 12-pack of MGD and I was. like god damn, you really have this. thing that's good. [laughter] Yeah.

He was the only guy I I I I I I knew. >> That guy owned that store, I reckon. He. was He worked very closely with the. owner. It was like a He was trying to. get a citizenship and he like lived in. the he lived in the warehouse itself. So. he was it was like his ticket to. America. So. >> But like in a big box store? Like not a. what? No, there's no way. No, especially if you go to like a. Target still to this day. You go to a. Target sometimes and it's like just crap. everywhere. Like I it's it's pretty bad. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's a mess. Yeah. Well, cool. So you came up came up with. that idea and that kind of. I don't know. Did you ever feel like.

kind of um. since you weren't, you know, technically. like a you know, you were savvy with. computers, I guess. I guess if you used. a computer regularly in the '90s, you. were a tech guy. You know what I mean? Well, you know, I was kind of too stupid not how stupid. I was really, but my experience had been. like. the first computer I got had 1K of. memory. And I saved up used to deliver. newspapers. I saved up for months. and bought a 16K. like K, not megabytes, gigabytes, kilobytes, memory expansion for that.

thing. Cost like 100 bucks or whatever. And I felt like I had more memory than I. would ever need, right? This is in the. '80s. And by the '90s, you know, it's. like we're talking about like maybe. megabytes. >> Yeah. And the stuff you you can do was like a. million times better than stuff you. could do in the '80s. So like in my dumb. brain, it was like, well, things just get cheaper. Yeah. >> Things just get smaller. And that turned out to be true. I mean, I I didn't know how it was true or why. it was true, but like. >> figured it out. >> Yeah, I'd seen that happen for like 15.

years at that point. Yeah, I I saw a. video. So there's a video from you 11. years ago and you were doing pretty you. had like three predictions. And the one. was 15 years from now. This is 11 years. ago. 15 years from now most cars won't. have steering wheels. Which I took as. like automatic cars basically. Yeah. So. kind of nailed that cuz I don't know if. you see I mean, obviously you see all. the Waymos here. I got here in a Waymo. Finally I got I love the way I actually. love the Waymos. So you were so you were. kind of spot-on with that. 15 years ago. or 11 years ago, you were like, yeah, there's self-driving cars. I don't think. people will really 11 years ago they're.

like, no way. Oh, they would. No, I And. the thing is, like, what's happened is a. lot of cars, like new cars, are more. self-driving than people realize. Mhm. It's called like enhanced driver aids. >> Yeah. So, it tells you if you're like. going out of your lane. It can tell you. if you need to brake suddenly, you know? There's a whole bunch of stuff they're. like building in gradually. Mhm. >> So, like, what used to just be like the. automatic gearbox or like cruise control. or something, it's like now getting more. and more sophisticated. So, you're. getting closer and closer to like that. self-driving Yeah, the lane assist. I I.

I like it. I took a Waymo and I actually. kind of really enjoyed it. I you know, I. thought I'd be like, "I don't know. It's. It's pretty reliable. It drives like a. regular speed. It's, you know, >> First few minutes is kind of weird, and. then it just gets old. Yeah. I I find. And I I like it. I'm I enjoy talking to. people in Ubers, so I don't mind the. human interaction, but there is. something really peaceful about just. like being there by yourself, Yeah. >> putting on a song and just kind of just. chilling. I I like really really I don't. know. I feel I find it really relaxing. I still catch myself about to say. something to the driver.

Oh, yeah. >> [laughter]. >> Or I'll say thank you getting out, I. think. >> Twice. Yeah, it says it says hello and. it says your name. And I always want to. say, you know, hello back. It's like. there's no one No one here, dude. So, the other one was, and I'm curious to. see what what where you're coming up. with this, five years from now computers. won't have batteries. What will they run on? >> Well, I was cheating at that point, right? Cuz they already I mean, so. there's a thing called an RFID tag, Mhm. which is like the the sort of one of the. main technologies in the Internet of. Things. It's just like a little chip. with an antenna, and like you buy. something from Walmart or something,

they use it for inventory tracking. >> Yeah. You know, you buy something from. Walmart, it might have a sticker on that. says EPC. That's the thing we invented at MIT. That's the electronic product code, right? Okay. That's a computer. Like an RFID tag is a computer, but it's. very small. It's very simple. It doesn't. have a battery. It gets power from the. radio waves that are communicating with. it. There are more Even when I made that. prediction, there are more RF There were. are RFID tags in the world then than any. other kind of computer added together. Smartphone I mean these things cost cost.

a few cents. They're in like your speed. pass and then in the products you buy. and you know they use for tracking in. Amazon warehouses and whatnot. So. there's billions of them and they don't. have batteries, right? So that's that's. the cheat in that story, right? But. you know what's happening in in. computing is two things. One, the the. amount of power it uses. goes down by about half every 2 years. So computers get just keep getting more. power efficient, right? Um so they need. less power, but also then we're getting.

better at like sending power over the. air, harvesting power from like. vibrations, sound vibrations, stuff like. that. Um so yeah, we're definitely. moving I mean it might be your. smartphone always has a battery, but you. probably noticed you get a lot more life. out of a charge now than you used to, right? So the power budgets go down, ways of putting power in go beyond. batteries. That's that's been happening for a while. that'll keep happening. Damn, so those. little Okay, so those are. What's the difference between a computer. and a computer chip? Nothing. Really? Okay. I mean because.

you think of computer and it's like. shorthand for like personal computer, but that's like a chip with like a. keyboard. Like a memory or you know it's a fan or. something, right? But the thing that's. doing the computing is the. microprocessor. and that's one. chip, one integrated circuit. That's. crazy they just pull the I guess the. energy out of the Wi-Fi and they keep. That's why Yeah, that's why my easy pass. keeps rocking. I've never charged that. >> Yeah, you got Yeah. Dang, nailed that, too. Mhm. And what do. you [laughter] think I'm nervous. I. don't want to do the third one. No, third one I think you're spot on. Kids. and grandkids will live to 100 on.

average. Oh, yeah. >> Yeah, that's that's coming, I think. >> Worldwide we're definitely getting. there. Um. you know, I mean the pandemic like. screwed up like life expectancy. Because. the thing about life expectancy that. nobody knows, right? Is it's what age are people dying today? Mhm. So if you're 20 years old and you. like you got on the internet or say your. life expectancy is 80. But that means the people who die today. are average age of 80. >> Yeah. >> That's not actually accounting for the. fact that it will probably get better as. you get older.

>> Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, so most. people are going to going to hit a 100. unless they have a bad accident or. something. That's that's definitely on. the way. Yeah, hopefully they can do. that you know, little like tiny small. robots that can go around your body and. be like cancer cell and then you just. get like a thing on your right watch. your watch your watch it. >> I mean that's that's kind of sort of. happening. Like at least [clears throat]. customized drug delivery. Mhm. Like it's. kind of a bit more modified for your you. know, your DNA, your body type, stuff. like that. We're learning a lot and. the thing about health care is.

you solve one problem. Like when I was a. kid, like all the men were dying in. their 40s of heart attacks. >> Yeah. They were smoking too much, they. were drinking too much, they were eating. British food too much, you know. Yeah. And and we figured out heart attacks, right? It doesn't really happen. And so. then people start dying of something. else. When they're 50. Yeah. >> And then we figured that out. And then. you know, you get And now it's so now. it's like dementia type problems. >> the big one right now. But you know, there's there's a lot of interesting. work happening. There's a lot of money. being thrown at that. I guess someone. will figure it out. And then the other. side of that there's there's something.

else that people will 100 die of. Yeah. >> You just don't know at what point you. like does it stop working that you can't. fix the thing that people are dying. >> Yeah, I wonder what the new thing will. be. I'll probably be the one who finds out. So yeah. >> [laughter]. >> Call me in 30 years. >> [gasps]. >> Damn man. So okay. So we we figured out. how you become a futurist. It's. Do you have any futurist like pals that. you talk to that you kind of like. >> Oh yeah. There's like there's a little. bunch of us and we shoot the [ __ ] and.

we we like. you know, like we post-rationalize like. you give me those predictions. >> Mhm. A lot of guys are completely wrong. I won't name names. But but but you you. know, when you said that but what I. meant was. >> Yeah, futurist yeah, but that was. >> There's this thing over here that I. found on Google that actually proves. So. yeah, you know, I I I think I'm an. honest futurist. Like, if you if you'd. have said you predicted this and it. didn't happen, I'd have been, "Yeah, you're right." Oh, yeah. It's hard. Yeah. Yeah. But, like, there there are a lot of guys. Yeah, who who won't ever admit that,

like, they got it wrong. You know, you. get a lot of stuff wrong. Like, it's not. surprising. >> If one of your futurist bros were to go, like, too far into the future, would you. pull them back and be like, "Bro, you. can't go that Like, if they were like. 700 years from now, or would you be like. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's, like, I mean, cuz you've got to think. about There's two things, right? If you. think about 700 years ago, Yeah. there. was no way anybody could have described. [laughter] this, right? Yeah. But, and. and as population gets bigger, you get. more ideas. >> Mhm. And people have more leisure time. as technology gets better to think about.

new things. So, technology improvement. accelerates, like, massively, right? Which is why we've gone from, like, I. mean, the first, like, main TVs were. like in the 50s, I think, was like the. big US television revolution. >> Yeah. Like, some shitty TV about, you. know, this big. >> Yeah. And now you've got, like, 4K on. your phone. Yeah. >> the idea of, like, looking more than. like 50 to 100 years ahead in any. meaningful way. >> Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, cuz like, one. thing leads to another, and at some.

point, you know, it's just gone in a. direction you didn't see coming. >> Yeah, that's what I like um. I do like in terms You have you have a. pretty optimistic outlook on terms of. future and technology. >> A lot of people Yeah. You know, especially with the sensors and this and. that, feel like they're they're clo. they're slowly getting closed in by like. a giant, you know, uh surveillance apparatus that's going. to like lock them up in a room. >> use good technology for bad things. I. mean, generally governments, not always. But, that that happens, and you know, you try and control it, but you If you.

if you don't invent something cuz. someone might do something bad with it, you know, you're never going to invent. anything, right? >> Yeah. Um but, the other thing is, like, it's it's safe to be an optimist. because, like, I'm going to tell you. right now, like, the world is not going. to end in our lifetime. Yeah. And if I'm. wrong, hey, who's going to. >> [laughter]. >> Who's going to know? True. You know, you can't really lose betting. on that. Yeah, well, I know I feel like. it's a lot of you get a lot of uh. I personally think it's really in vogue. to be very negative and very kind of.

doom and gloom with the history, especially with AI. Everyone I know is. like freaking out about it. I honestly. don't I don't know. Again, it's like. yeah, if it erases a bunch of jobs, you. know, seemingly overnight, that's it's. going to be a problem, but I I I really. feel like they'll figure it out. I don't. know. I don't like. >> Yeah. Cuz it's like especially if you. like go back to like the fall of the. Roman Empire, dude, if you were to ask any of those. guys back then, they would have been. like, "It's done. We're done. Everything's over." They They would have. never been able to conceive of the fact. that it's like not only not over, but. it's going to be.

a million times different and better. Oh, yeah. I mean, and and bad things. happen, good things happen. AI is like a. big complicated topic, but like it's. very close to the internet of things. So, I've been like dealing with AI one. way or another since the '90s. Yeah. So, like. I'm not like all doom and gloom or all. like hype about it. I'm kind of like in. the middle, you know? And And the thing. is, I think. um and I'm not I'm not trying to raise a. billion dollars right now. So, you know, it's easy for me, but like it's it's. just a more complicated toaster, right? >> Yeah. You know, you like a toaster turns.

bread into toast. It doesn't know what. toast is, right? Doesn't understand. meaning. AI is the same. AI is just like. brain toast. Yeah. You know, it it's. it's it doesn't know what it's doing. It's just a machine. And you know, like the. there are things that only humans can. do, right? And the thing that only. humans can do, one of them is meaning. Mhm. So, if we like tell stories, we can. only tell good stories. Computers can't. They can tell bad stories cuz they don't. know what anything means. Yeah. I mean,

it's like I I give you like in comedy, Mhm. like the best comedy is the the. comedy, right? People laugh most, they. get the most emotional reaction from. something that feels most true. And that's true in all storytelling. If. it makes you scared, or if it makes you. excited, or sad, or whatever. Like the. more it makes you feel something, you. know, in comedy it's laughter, the truer. it is, generally. The more it means. something. Machines can't do that. AI. can't do that. >> Yeah, that's that's kind of uh that's. been my feeling on it. I've I've like. it's useful for like editing, you can.

have it edit, you can have it flag. errors, but like. I don't know I I feel the same way cuz. it's like I mean I I guess in terms of. like producing a good story, maybe they. could like draw from, you know, a. hundred of the best authors of all time, copy some sort of like, you know, pattern to that, but I I don't feel like. I've tested Grok before by being like, you know, um here's a joke I'm thinking. of and it was complete nonsense on. purpose, and it was like, "Hilarious, you're killing it." And I was like, "That's literally, you know, that's a.

>> It's It's like It's like the guys who. run it. They like They like sycophants, you know, they like you know, people. suck up, and they think you like that, too. But like I mean. I can't imagine you like asking AI to. write you a bit. They can't literally can't. >> on stage and be like, "Yeah, I can. confidently deliver this bit.". >> No, I can't do it. Cuz that was I. remember hearing like, "Oh, it's going. to, you know, at first or whatever, not. the first, but the last writer strike, there's a big thing like AI's coming, it's going to take." And I was like, "How close is it actually for comedy. writing?" It's so so bad. It's horrible.

>> Yeah. I I I crap crap AI storytelling is like. crap human storytelling, right? You. know, like what's what's Why is a bad. comedian bad? It's cuz they're saying. something that doesn't really mean. anything, that doesn't really ring true. Yeah. Right? And like Like you see a. crappy like straight-to-video kind of. movie, and it's it's kind of like a. mashup of a bunch of cliches you've seen. a million times before. Doesn't really. have any kind of thematic thing. So what. I say that comedy is is truth-telling, right? So Yeah, I grew up I'm again, I'm.

old, I grew up on like Bill Hicks. Yeah. Eddie Izzard. You can still. You know about Bill Hicks? Yeah. So you. can go You can go back and look at Bill. Hicks like from like the '80s or '90s, he's still funny. Yeah. You know, maybe. the president he's taken the piss out of. us change the name or something. But. basically it's it's still true, right? >> Yeah. And so you know, that's that's that's. all storytelling whether it's comedy or. anything else. It's got to be real. It's. got to be true. It's got to have. meaning. AI I don't think it's ever going to be. at that point. Yeah. Where like you.

could say, "Okay, I'm going to have it. tell me write me a joke and I'm just. going to go say it and people are going. to laugh." Yeah, I yeah, I don't think. it could do anything meaningful. At. least you know, I don't think so. I. think it could crank out like children's. cartoons. Like PAW Patrol. If you were to do like, you know, like a children's animated. show. I've noticed as I've I've watched a good. amount with my kids. Almost all those cartoons follow the. exact same storyline where it's like, you know, an animal's lost and needs its. mom and it's like you could I think you.

could like crank out slop like that, but. yeah, I I just think it's good for like. organizing. It's like a super spell. check where it's like it can go flag. errors, you know, but yeah, I I. I'm not worried about it. I know so many. people are like, "It's going to become. sentient and like realize it doesn't. like us and kill us." And it's like. >> people have stopped saying that since I. started using it. I feel like they're. saying like. >> [laughter]. >> They're like, "Actually this is kind of. crap." You know. Exactly, yeah. Sorry to interrupt the podcast, guys, but this episode is brought to you by. PrizePicks. Shoot your shot on.

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your first $5 lineup. PrizePicks, it's. good to be right. Hey, uh, real quick, while I have you. guys, I have some shows coming up, and. um, well, we have some good news and bad. news. The good, well, depends on For me, the good news is I'll be in Cleveland. and Pittsburgh this weekend, March 6th, Cleveland, March 7th, Pittsburgh. And. I'm not fronting. I think both shows are going to sell. out. So, if you want to come, here's your CTA, your call to action. If. you want to come to those shows in.

Clits- If you want to come to those. shows I almost called it Clitsburg, that's crazy. Uh, Cleveland, Ohio or. Pittsburgh, I almost slipped. Um, yeah, just come. You can get my tickets. I think there's a link in this video to. get them. Pretty sick. And, um, also after that, I'll be in St. Louis, Missouri, Indianapolis, St. Paul, Missouri, I guess that's MO, Missouri, Des Moines, Iowa. Phoenix, here's the. big one, guys. All of them are selling. pretty well. God damn that Phoenix. Celebrity Theatre is it's not till.

April 17th. So, we have some time, but. that show's in the round, and I actually. enjoy performing in the round. So, if. you want to see my butt for like good. 10-second stretches while I I do my. thing, and you know, I'll turn around, I'll. show you my bulge at the Celebrity. Theatre as well. It'll be butt and bulge. all night at the Celebrity Theatre. Just. an angry little micro bulge. I wear some. joggers that night, so everyone gets. their money's worth. They can all go, "Ha ha ha, look at that. It's barely. sticking out." Guys, I'll be in Tucson,

Arizona. Toronto's a big one. Two shows, again, not bragging, nature of the. beast. Two shows, both have sold out in. Toronto. I'm thinking about adding a. third, so. Canadians, I know I've said a lot of bad. things about your country. I was just. [ __ ] kidding around. I love you guys. You guys love me more than all these. bastards in [ __ ] Phoenix, Arizona, apparently. So, come on out to the. shows, and then Chicago, of course, I'll. be at the Riviera Theatre. Uh probably going to add a second show. there, hopefully, cuz that that thing. done sold out May 26th, so whatever.

Hopefully, that makes sense to you guys. Go to mattmccusker.com, and uh yeah, come to a show, man. We're. having a good time. Also, I'll be doing. Algonauts in Austin, Texas. That's once. a month I do that, where where me and. Tim Butterly take people's cell phones, project their algorithm through. Instagram, usually on the screen, and. you know, try to get a picture of like, "Who is this person? What are What are. they What is the algorithm being sent or. what is being sent to them through the. algorithm? What does that say about. them? What doesn't it say about them?". Cuz you can't just judge someone on. their algorithm, or maybe you can't, I. don't know. Come out to that That's at.

the Creek and Cave Creek and Cave. Uh. so, if you go to creekandcaveatx, you. can get that. And last. and. I don't remember the saying. Last and. s- cool enough. Guys, I'm tired. Last and. most importantly, um Noble Bomb, I'll be in Philadelphia. March 16th. I'm going to I'm I'm just. visiting family, figured I'd strut my. stuff. on the old flagship stage that is Helium. Philadelphia. I'm going to get some of. my.

friends and we're all going to try. newish material, stuff we're working on. It'll be fun. Come out. It'll be St. Patty's Day weekend. You can get drunk. if that's what you feel you must do. And if you're trying really hard not to. be drunk, well, try to hold out. Come to the show. Be. sober. You know, be fun. Learn how to be fun while sober. or get [ __ ] hammered on St. Patty's. Day. It's really up to you. All of these I'm. laying out choices. That's all I'm. doing. I'm I'm not trying to coerce you. I'm not trying to manipulate you. I'm.

just giving you choices. Do whatever you want. Love you guys. Back to the show. Pardon the interruption. Pardon the. interruption. This is Sean Gardini. I. just wanted to let you guys know that. I'll be in Salt Lake City, Utah at. Wiseguys Comedy Club. March 27th and 28th. with Nate Marshall. So, please come see. that show if you'd like. And I'll be at The Comet in Cincinnati. Not Comet Ping Pong, just The Comet in. Cincinnati on May 22nd and 23rd.

So, please come to those That was a. little joke there, but I'd like I'd. really like to see you guys at the show. So, please come if you can. Tickets are. at seangardini.com. And we also have Optimum Noctis. at The Creek and The Cave in Austin, Texas, me, Nate Marshall, and La Mer Lee. every first and third Tuesday of the. month. So, thank you very much for your time. Pardon the interruption. Enjoy the rest. of the show. But But yeah, the other And the other.

thing, too, is like. I I saw you talking about um God, who. what was it? Mozart? That fake letter? Oh, yeah, yeah. Where like all of his. songs would come to him like in this. He'd be in a great mood and they would. just start to finish they would come and. all he had to do was kind of write them. out. And how that was everyone believed. that was like oh for sure but it's it's. literally fake. Guy worked his ass off. Probably like you do. Like you know. I. mean maybe once in a while you're stuck. at a red light and you like get the seed. of an idea that's quite a good idea but. I don't know you but I'm guessing like.

most of the comedy you write you're like. sitting there like thinking about it and. like making a little bit better and a. little bit better again and Yeah. getting pissed off with it and throwing. it away and you know that's that's how. great creators create. Mhm. They just. work. Yeah. >> There's talent and all that stuff. It's. not like anybody could be Mozart. Sure. But even Mozart had to be like writing. things down, crossing them out. He he. has to play something, listen to it and. go oh that's good, that's not good. That's how everybody does it. Yeah, there that's that's kind of a you know. what you come to discover it's like it.

really is like. you know if you want to do something. cool in any capacity usually it's just. like you have to trade your time. Like. you have to trade tons of time and just. deal with stuff that like sucks so bad. and just keep plotting through. Whereas. I I do think there's yeah there's a. thought where it's like I can just link. into the AI, feed it prompts and it's. like I don't I don't think it's going to. produce a That's why it sucks to be like. on a deadline or in a hurry. Yeah. Cuz. you kind of need the luxury to be like. yeah I spent a week on this. but it sucks. Mhm. And I don't want to.

but I'm going to have to start over. Yeah. >> And so if you if you don't have that. luxury. you got to go with the thing that sucks, right? >> Yeah. True that. So so about the book we got. the story of stories. Mhm. Where'd you when when did you kind of. like you know cuz you were talking about. things what made you what prompted you. to switch to thinking about stories? >> Oh well it's like. I was so we talked about smartphones and. like this year. about 90% of the people in the world in.

the world. own a smartphone. Okay. And that's like 15% of those people are. like us in advanced economies. We maybe. had computers before that, TVs, and. telephones, and all that stuff. But, the. other like 75% of people, they never had. any of that stuff. So, you've gone from like not owning a. telephone, you know, watching a TV that 10 other. families watch on the corner of the. street, >> Mhm. to having a smartphone in your pocket. Yeah, that's cool. >> beginning of the story of stories was. like, "Well, what does that mean? Like,

how does that change things?" And, you. know, the way it changes things is this is the. first time in human history when anybody. can tell stories to anybody. Mhm. Right? If you have a good story, like you can. put it on the internet, on Facebook, or. whatever. And, if people start sharing. it, like very quickly, like it can kind. of go all the way around the world. Mhm. That's never been true. Like, you know, storytelling started. about a million years ago. because we invented fire. Yeah. So, if.

but if we invented fire, and at about the you know, similar time, uh alcohol, drugs, and cooking. So, you're sitting around a fire. What else is there to do after you've. eaten some food, gotten drunk, gotten. high? Right? You start shooting the [ __ ]. >> [laughter]. >> So, that's how language happened, right? Language didn't give us stories, stories. gave us language. So, you you know, you're a million years ago, like your. long way human ancestors, and you only. know how to like, you know, say all. there's a pine near over there, or let's.

have sex, right? You got a few kind of. barky sound. But, gradually, you what do. you sound cuz you can't see cuz it's. firelight. So, gradually over a long. period of time, you know, you evolve to. get good at talking Yeah. about. tomorrow, or something you remember, or. like where the stars maybe came from, or. whatever, right? So, storytelling is. what made us human. Right? And, at that time, like it was like you could. talk to like five guys, you know, that. you're buddies around the fire, right?

But then you get like. maybe drawing, like you can draw on the. wall of a cave or something, people can. see it like even after you die. Then. [snorts] you get stuff like singing, so. it's it makes it really easy to remember. a story, and then of course, you know, writing, printing, all the way through to like. smartphones and AI. It's It's It's. stories all the way down, right? So, the. minute I was like, "What the [ __ ] does. it mean that everyone's got a. smartphone?". You know, I kind of went backwards, I. guess, down the rabbit hole. >> Mhm. And then ended up with, "Well, it's.

it's all stories." You know, the way to. tell the story of what's happening now, everyone's arguing about whether this is. true or that is true or this conspiracy. theory or whatever, that's really being. enabled by smartphones, right? It's all. storytelling. Storytelling is deep in. our brains because it evolved with us. Yeah. Um so, that's where the story of. stories came from. I mean, this is like. I'm kind of a slow thinker. I like have. to read [ __ ] everything, and it takes. ages for it to like, you know, settle in. and like make sense, and I chase. squirrels, I go down rabbit holes, and I.

wake up in the morning like, "How did I. get here?" But the the point was like, "What does it mean about the. smartphones?" Basically. Yeah. And then. one thing leads to another, you end up. with the story of stories cuz that's the. only way I figured out how to answer the. question. So, what do you What did you. What do you in terms of like a. prescriptive, I guess, if you have one? Uh-huh. What do you think the answer to. that question is in terms of like where. it'll go or like how do you handle. yourself in a world where like you have. a million people telling you a million. stories, and especially with like the. deep fake stuff, and you know, that's. coming down the pipe? I mean,

I I think there's a couple of I I I. can't really do prescriptions. Like, I. But But what I what I think is. um. we got to understand that stories are. really integral to how we think about. the world. Like, some people think of. stories are like, "I read a book. I saw. a movie." Right? But yeah, stand-up. comedy is storytelling, right? This. conversation is storytelling, right? Most of what we do is storytelling one. way or another. Yeah, the thing Sorry to. get the thing from the book that really, you know, I think is cool is the uh. kind of the idea of like, you know, how. you're.

majority or I guess maybe the whole. entire thing of your identity is. literally just you telling stories or. continuing stories. Like the person you. are. And to be And it's like, you know, you're you were saying, too, like how. your all your cells basically die Yeah. except for your eyeballs and like the. Just a little bit of the back part of. your brain. >> Yeah, like a couple of little. >> That's crazy. That's the only thing over. your whole lifetime that lives the. entire The cells don't die. Just you. have your your original eyeballs and. your little like lizard stem of your. brain. Yeah. Everything else dies, comes. back, dies, comes back. >> all made of food. So, and I I do get. that cuz there's like, okay, that's.

fair. So, like your physical form is. actually kind of coming and going. And you're you're The thing that's. actually sustained is the story you're. telling yourself. The only only caveat. is that you There is a form, like a. shape to your physical cells and stuff. That's the one thing that does Well, actually no, it doesn't. Cuz then you. grow and you I mean, you weren't born. looking like this, man. Actually, I came. out exactly like [laughter]. Came out 192 lbs, like. No, that's fair. That's Yeah, okay. Yeah, so and then you can also alter. your form, so Yeah. Nope, I'm wrong. So,

that is kind of cool to think of like I. was like reading it last night, kind of. bug First of all, bugging out about. people telling stories a million years. ago over fire, which is just like like. just like groaning noises to each other. And uh how that becomes basically, you. know, that's that's evolved into where. like literally that's how you experience. yourself as who you are through stories. and the The thing that I really like, too, is like stories being vehicles of. like shame and glory delivery systems, where it's like you tell And it happens.

all the time. The news is like the. number one thing, where it's like it's a. giant shame Mostly a shame apparatus, where it's just like, "This person, piece of [ __ ] They suck." And it's, you. know, and you're listening, you're like, "Yeah, I hate that guy, too." There's no. gray, right? It's like, >> [laughter]. >> "You're a hero or you're a villain.". And that's that's the story shape brain, Yeah. right? So, you got to understand. like that's that's not how how world. actually is. Mhm. Everybody's kind of. like a bit good and a bit bad and some. people are really quite bad and some. people are really quite good, but we we. think in terms of heroes and villains.

just cuz all that stuff around the. fireside, right? You know, cuz we're. shooting the [ __ ] around the fireside. getting high, well, we're the heroes. Yeah. Those guys over there, they're the villains. Yeah. That's just. how the brain works. So, like. understanding that is one thing. Like. your your understanding of the world is. like 99.9% based on stories that you. have heard. Yeah. And most of those. stories were based on stories that the. person who told you the story had heard. And so on. Very little that we know, we. know through our eyes and ears and so. on, right? We're told it. That's unique. about humans. So, you got to be really,

I think, just like you might think about. the food that you eat, right? You kind. of got to be a little bit picky about. what stories you expose yourself to. >> Yeah. But also, then, like don't just. take them at face value, you know, especially if it's something you want to. believe. Yeah. >> Like if someone tells you your hero is a. hero, you might that might be the best time to. be like, "Well, I'm going to think about. that a little bit harder cuz there may. be another angle here, you know?" And. and. this is the challenge like because the. story of stories kind of the first wave.

of it is this one person can tell. stories to five people to now everybody. can tell stories to everybody, right? That's kind of we're at the end of that. first wave, but what we're seeing now is. like is this story real? Yeah. >> Is this cuz cuz throughout human. history, like you know, you look at this. painting, like we know that's a. painting. We know that's not actually a naked. woman sitting right there, right? >> But as we move into this world of like. ever-increasing screen revolutions, it. looks more and more three-dimensional, ever better AI, deepfake technology,

we're going to reach a point sometime. soon when you actually can't tell. Yeah. Are you looking out of a window kind of. thing or are you being told a story? Like how real is it? How fake is it? And. that critical thinking that we already. need to be like, "Is someone. bullshitting me right now? It's got to get a lot sharper. Yeah, that's going to be I was like thinking. about that. a lot especially with the Epstein files. cuz I think that is going to follow. whatever the next election like the you. know, presidential election. I think.

that's going to be weaponized to try to. like take the either you know, people. trying to take their opponents down with. that which is like okay, fair enough but then it's like. we'll be in a place now where you can be. accused of horrible stuff as a. politician there will be a video and. you'll be like, that's a deepfake. You. can see that already, right? Like. >> You know, I mean that was not long ago. like I think Syria was accused of. gassing its population or something and. like there was a video it's like, oh. yeah, that's all AI, you know. Yeah. That's that's a it's [ __ ] but it's. it's common and you know, I mean. obviously people are in that I mean you.

know, raping kids is bad, those people. suck, they should all go to jail, I'm. totally for that. But yeah, I mean that. just on the story of stories side of it, the Epstein files exist because of. email. Yeah. And there's so much like like you. know, this like priest police brutality. stuff that we hear about now like that's. not new but you get to see. video of it. Like right now there's like. 10 smartphones pointing at it and. they're all on the internet like. immediately. Yeah. So yeah, there's good. and bad with this new technology. We're. getting this paper trail. Like are the.

Epstein emails fake? We kind of know. they're not, right? Cuz they just they. look real, right? And there's so many of. them. So but at some point yeah, you're. going to be shown a cell phone video. This happens now like look what this you. know, this person did. It's going to be BS. >> Yeah, so I saw a video of a bombing. recently where like literally the cars. just like flew up in the air and I was. like damn that it was in like the Middle. East and then it's like 10 people like. this is AI not real and it's like. >> Yeah. [ __ ] that's kind of weird. You could. generally find some expert online now. there like who can explain to you.

>> get it. >> this is or isn't real like Yeah, well I. think I know. yeah, I think Netflix has a thing where. they they actually screen if you give. them something they'll run it through a. filter to determine how much AI is in it. and if there's too much AI, they're. like, we can't use this. I was watching. a video yesterday. It was like some guy. who was like cheating at like speed. running. You know, like when you play. Yeah, yeah. So, like they video. themselves, but like they'd analyze like. the mouse movement and they realized. that the mouse hand was like kind of. superimposed and it wasn't really there. Really? Yeah, so I mean that stuff's. already happening.

>> this is a scandal. Why don't Why is. nobody hearing about this? This. >> Oh, it's I mean. >> [laughter]. >> YouTube, man. Tells you everything you. need to know. But there's there's. Again, good and bad, right? You can use. this technology for like cheating. Mhm. But there's another guy. who can use the technology to tell that. you're cheating. >> Yeah, yeah, that's true. And that's what. I wonder, too, cuz again with with the. you know, if we go into a realm of just. like political deep fakes, you don't. know what's real, what's not. It's like. literally genuinely impossible to tell. I wonder if, you know, cuz there is like. a desire for like the truth. Like. especially with the Epstein stuff or.

whatever's going on. Like I want to know. exactly what happened. >> Yeah. But then it's like I wonder if. people want that kind of access to the. truth if there's going to be some. trade-off where it's like, all right, well, we're all going to like. divulge everything about each other. Like, you know, live We're all on camera. 24/7. That way we have like we have the. truth if we need it. I think everyone. would be like, I'm all right on that. I'm all right on that. Instagram filters. are there for a reason, right? You know, >> [laughter]. >> FaceTune and all that. Nobody wants They. want They want to make you think that's. what what's real. But yeah, there's I. mean there's never any proof of.

anything, right? There's only evidence. Yeah. And we have to be, you know, we already. are cuz our brains are built this way, but we have to be smart and awake about. is this evidence real? Does this. evidence add up to the story someone's. trying to tell me? Why are they trying. to tell me this story? Cuz that's the. other thing, like. if anybody's ever telling you a story, even like in conversation, like. they whether they realize it or not, they've got an agenda. It's not like. neutral or objective. They're like they. want to get a second date or they want. to make you laugh or they want to. impress you or they don't want you to.

find out what you did what they did or. something, right? Yeah. >> Always. That's It's a bad thing. That's. just the way of the world. So, you got. to be kind of on to like is this. [ __ ]. >> Yeah, and that that's No, for sure. And. it's it's hard, you know, it's That's. kind of a hard thing to do cuz I feel. like a huge part of that is like taking. yourself out of the equation as much as. possible. Cuz it's usually like what. what version of this makes me look the. best? And it's like. >> Well said. Yeah, that's I think that's. what happened. And you know, it's it's. hard to like be aware enough to not do. that. But even with like the again, with. the Epstein stuff, it's like like you. said,

obviously child rapists are horrible. Horrible horrible thing should be. punished, you know, beyond even whatever. they get. But then the thing I've saw is. like. it becomes very almost I don't know if. trendy's the word to be like. to ramp it up to the point where it's. like we're now controlled and people are. like, "I'm sure of this by. pedophiles entirely who are like eating. kids." And it's like. And again, if there's proof of that, it's like obviously punish that person. But the thing I worry about is like you.

do get a charge. Like whenever you talk. about something like somebody being bad. makes you feel good in some way. You're. like, "That guy's a piece of shit." And. then you know, it's like how much of it. is like, you know, like if they're a. [ __ ] pedo cannibalistic pedophiles, obviously [ __ ] punish them. But it's. like A, what if that's not as true as. you think? And like what is that weird. ego charge you're getting being like, "These [ __ ] pieces of. And like they're in control of the. entire world." It's like, "Maybe.". >> Here are some villains again, right?

Yeah, yeah. That's the one kind of thing. that I get a little iffy on. And it But. it's it sucks cuz it's like what are you. sticking up? It's like, "No, not at. all." Like again, if you catch somebody. doing that, like do whatever you have to. do. But it's like when you There's like a. There's this thing where you ruminate on. it endlessly where you're like, "What. are you What are you getting out of. that?" Or it's like it's kind of sick on. both ends. >> I think it's storytelling again. Like. cuz like, you know, you got the. Pizzagate thing like it's blood sucking. Hillary Clinton or whatever that was. about. Like that's a story. That's like. a movie, like good conspiracy theories. are kind of like good movies, right? Or.

the other way around, right? Real life, even with these heinous crimes, the. other thing about the Epstein files is. kind of how tacky it is. You know, these. people are like cheesy, they're kind of. cringey. It's not like a an action movie. or. it's like, you know, it's what they're. doing is [ __ ] horrible. And and but. but also like they're they're they're. just like having these tacky kind of. email exchanges about like. >> that's the one thing too, how dorky it. all was. >> addicted to JE. I like,

>> [laughter]. >> you know, I miss my JE. >> guy stood right there. Really? Seriously? Oh [ __ ] sorry. Sorry that. guy. But like, what the [ __ ] I've been. making fun of JE withdrawals as soon as. I heard it. I was like, "Ah, man." Have. you looked in the Epstein files for. yourself? I have not, no. Oh I have. I'm. not in there. I never knew the guy or. anything, but like he was hanging around. MIT when I was, so like. you know, there's there's plenty of. people who like they never met him, but. like. >> He loved He loved science stuff. >> Oh yeah, there's a list of like, you. know, names or people present presenting. at something, but yeah, I was like I was.

I don't think I was on his radar, thank. god. That was the other thing for the guys. that again, there's comedians. >> Comedians came out very well. They did, thank god. >> [laughter]. [gasps]. >> But yeah, that's that's the. Yeah, that's the one thing where it's. like you're totally right where, you. know, it's like we have to. recognizing how deeply stories kind of. alter your reality. You know, it's like. one thing to be like, let me sit back. let me take a breath. Especially I know. myself as I have my own biases like if I. read a thing and I'm I'm starting to get.

pissed, I have to like train myself to. be like, relax. Or I'll feel myself I'll. be reading an article and I'm like this. better not be [ __ ] true and I'll. start like trying to right away picking. it apart automatically. >> That's emotion, right? That's emotion. and truth. That's that thing. It's like, oh, I'm feeling something here. >> Yep. >> That's really good to notice. >> But it's hard not to be like, [ __ ] yeah. This is [ __ ]. >> That's possibly what they. Yeah, I'm going to [ __ ] share this. I'm going to comment I'm not actually. going to like read the article cuz I. just saw the headline. And yeah. Well. that's and that's my thing too, though, with on the flip side of the conspiracy. stuff. It's like.

you have some people to be like if. something even sounds outlandish, they. go, "Well, this is just a crazy case.". It's like it could be true, too. I don't. know. But it's like I you know, I don't. know either way. Could totally That. whole other thing about the island of. pedophiles was out 10 years ago and. everyone was like, "You're out of your. [ __ ] mind." And it was true. Yeah. So, it's like, you know, that that's the. one thing where I try to just like stay. as neutral as possible where I'm not. like, you know, hoping it's true or. hoping it's not or it's like maybe it. is, maybe it is. Like you know, and and. you mentioned COVID in the book. That. was the That was a great example of. like, you know, cuz again, like I my.

family was just kind of like, "Whatever, we'll just live life as we see fit." And. it. seemed fine. And then I would hear. people like their half their family. would die and it was like. it was crazy, you know, it's kind of. nuts, you know. >> Yeah, and that's that's the thing about. stories that like. really serious. It's like it changes how. we behave. Mhm. Like, you know, if you. believe the Loch Ness Monster is real, like it doesn't really matter. Yeah. It's not. There's not a dinosaur. in a Scottish lake, but like you're not. hurting anybody believing it. You're not. hurting yourself by believing it. But.

the minute you're like, you know, I. don't know, Jewish people are like. pedophiles sucking blood, I'm going to. like, you know, go go yell at a mosque. or like I'm not going to take a COVID. vaccine. >> [laughter]. >> Oh, right. It was just that like word Yeah, I know. And that's that's the uh If you hurt. yourself or somebody else, that's a bad. story. Yeah, and especially Yeah, exactly. And especially again, it's like. just the awareness of being like, "What. are the odds that like, you know, I am. the one who's like the good one I'm the.

good guy and everyone else is the bad. guy?". >> Yeah. You know, and it's like again, it's such. a case-by-case basis where it's like I. could confidently look at Jeffrey. Epstein and go, "Yeah, I'm I'm good. compared to that guy, you know?" But. it's like when you start like grouping. in thousands and hundreds of thousands. of people and being like, "I know what. they're all about." I you You it's it. gets kind of dicey. Oh, this is this is. the identity being a story you tell. yourself, right? Like. >> Yeah. the fact that Jeff's here, Jeffrey. Epstein is this heinous pedophile. Yeah. And God knows what else, like, you know,

bribing, blackmailing, whatever the hell. he was doing. That doesn't change who. you are like 1 in. Yeah. You're not a. better person cuz he was an [ __ ]. >> [laughter]. >> Just like you're not you're not you're. more of an [ __ ] because like this. some other dude who's like, you know, That's a depressingly low bar. >> [laughter]. >> Be like, "I'll tell you what I don't do. I don't, you know, roast kids and eat. them and, you know, what Yeah, that's. That is kind of a sad thing to get a. charge on where you're like, "Shh, what. a piece of shit.". >> Any story where like you're the hero or. someone else is the villain and that's. probably I I mean, like always makes me.

laugh. Like, you know, you're you're an. Eagles fan, right? You're like. every time you go to a football game, like the ref makes a call. and if it's for your team. >> Yeah, [laughter] he loves the ref is. Like the first time I watched a football. game, like I only just come to the US. I. didn't understand football very well, but I was like in a in a bar. It was the. Snowball game. Like it was Patriots. versus Oakland. And like Brady had like. what looked like a fumble. Yeah. And they said, "Oh, no, his hand. was It was a tuck rule game." And then.

the Patriots went on to win the Super. Bowl for the first time ever. And like. Boston, like, "Yeah, that's that was. great refereeing right there. That was. exactly The rest of the world, like, "Fuck that." You know? But you know damn well if that'd been. the Eagles quarterback, if that'd been. Donovan McNabb Yeah. that would've been. a great call. Exactly. Yeah, Philly. would've Yeah, I know it's totally true. You'd be like, "No, actually I yeah, that's totally fair. Yeah.". >> and villains every time. Yeah. Especially the big thing, too, is like, you know, the in in a marriage, it's like I can.

easily spin a yarn in my head where my. wife is completely out to ruin my entire. life, hates me, is genuinely evil. And then literally 10 minutes go by and. I was like, "Nah, I was being kind of a. dick. I should apologize." I I needed a. sandwich. >> [laughter]. >> That's also like post breakup, right? Like your friends are like, "Oh, she was. Yeah, you know." And and her friends are. like, "He was an ass." It's like, you. know. >> Yeah. Anytime [snorts] anytime you're the. hero, everyone else is the villain, and. you're really sure about that, that's. probably when the. the alarm bells need to ring. >> Yeah, so that'll be an interesting, you.

know, I'll be curious to see how people. uh. you know, what they do internally to. kind of navigate the landscape. Cuz I I. I do feel like people are starting to. catch on and like relax and not get as. triggered. Even like 10 years ago, people, you know, we were like hitting. each other with trash can lids in the. streets, and like it was people were. pretty inflamed about like political. storytelling and, you know, who's the. good guys and bad guys on that side. I I like to think a lot of the younger. people I talk to, like, you know, early 20s, almost take.

like an ironic kind of stance towards a. lot of the political like getting heated. Yeah. >> in general. Like, I don't know if you've. ever There's a There's a uh. There's a like a. Instagram video genre called rage bait, where it's just like young 20-year-olds. will walk up to a, you know, about like. 50, 60-year-old guy and be like, "What's. up, pussy?". And [laughter] it's like and they're. filming it with meta glasses, and this. guy is like, >> Yeah. "I have to fight you now." And. they're almost just making fun of this. whole idea that like anyone can be. triggered by words to like. >> that's it. That's especially a thing in.

the South. There's like science on this. Like, it's I forget what they call it, but like Southern guys are raised like. if anybody like looks at you funny, you. know. Yeah. That's like that's fighting. talk, right? Whereas in like other parts. of the US, it's like, "I don't give a. shit." Quite so much. So, some of that. again is the stories you get told about. who you're supposed to be. >> Yeah. Even on like the East Coast, I remember. like, you know, people I remember I was. in Tulsa recently, and you know, I'm at. I'm at the bar, and we're hanging out. after the show, and there was this kid. who had come to the show, and he's, you. know, he's just hammered. He's talking.

to me, "Ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah. ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah And then there's. just like this black dude sitting at the. bar, and he reached over, grabbed the. dude's head, and went, "Ah ah ah ah ah. ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah. ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah. ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah. ah ah And I was just like, "This guy's. going to [ __ ] punch you in the face.". cuz you know it's like you know if I. were to do that to just a random black. dude in Philly they would I I I I I I I. I I I I I I I I 100% I think 99.9 they. would fight me. Like it's literally like. you can't just can't do that. And this I. and I was like, >> [gasps]. >> and I like it started almost like. interceding on his behalf like he's at. and the guy was like, oh he's just. having fun man. And I was like,

And and you know it's not even if it was. a a white guy it's a it's similar thing. but it's kind of like. how are you not fighting right I. couldn't understand it. I was like I. would assume you'd be fighting. But. there are I mean there are chill people. in Philly too, right? There are but it's. not that many, you know what I mean? That if that had been a bar that someone. grabbed someone's head and shook it. violently like that in Philadelphia and. then again just regardless of race it. would have been. I would have said a. 80% chance of some sort of at least. verbal it would have been 100% chance of. verbal altercation where it's like, what. the [ __ ] are you doing? Yeah, my money.

>> And that age group too. We're talking. like 50, 60, maybe 20 years old. >> probably a fighter. Like he probably. could have like. killed the guy. >> He just was like, he's having a good. time, man. >> I tell you if if you're in a situation. where it gets confrontational and. there's one guy who's like really chill. Yeah. Yeah, true. >> [laughter]. >> He's like the MMA guy, you know. Yeah, you know I'm not trying to be. racist obviously and black people will. fight you if you touch it. Well, actually no that's kind of true though. If you touch their heads they spaz so I. stand by the statement. >> I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I.

I I do that too. >> [laughter]. >> I don't like when people touch my face. I feel I don't like that at all. >> London. Like yeah, [ __ ] off. Yeah, you. can't yeah you can't touch my head but. that was that is yeah I don't know. That. was just something that I remember that. made me laugh cuz I remember I like. interceded on a level where the guy was. like Don't worry about it. Relax, man. Like you don't need to do all this. And. I was like, all right, well that would. be nice. Maybe your set had made that. guy so chill. May I don't think he That guy wasn't at. the show. >> Oh. I don't think he he was just a chill. He. might have been the chillest guy but I. think it is just like and I was asking. people from there and they were like, yeah man like you know we just we [ __ ].

around. It's not no one's that wound up. around here in Tulsa like to that. extent. I was like, well that's a lot. different. I'm not used to that." So. But yeah, man. So, what else are you You. just You got the book When's the book. coming out? Tuesday. Tuesday? >> Yeah. Ooh. Big day. Okay. So, we'll hold. this. We'll hold this. This We'll have. this come out maybe day of, dude. We'll. see. I appreciate it. That'll be nice. And uh What do you got So, what's on the. horizon now, man? So, you know, you you. kind of What are What are you looking to. do? Cuz I I you know, I I had you pegged. as like a complete technology, you know,

technologist kind of in terms of like. Not not some I I thought you were like a. die-hard computer guy. Mhm. And you're. more of just like a curious kind of. where will things go guy. Yeah. So, where do you think yourself Could you. predict where yourself where you're. going to go? I hope not. What's your. What's your plan? Every few years like. I'm amazed at like what's going on and I. kind of like that. But like I'm working. on a new book. Nice. Um you know, I I'm. promoting this book. I've got into calisthenics and stuff,

you know, doing my planche and all that. stuff. >> [laughter]. >> Bloody hard. So, yeah. It's me. I'm you. know, trying to get my kids to pay me. attention now that they're in their 20s. What's that like? I have a three and. five-year-old man. I can't even imagine. them not. >> either. Like I said to my daughter when. she was 12, "You know, when you turn 13, you won't want to hang out with me. anymore." She said, "No, Daddy. I'll. never be like that." And like, yeah, you. you get a text once in a while. >> [laughter]. >> Which is great. It means they're. independent. They're doing their own. thing. >> True. True. I mean, they're very. impressed that like I'm coming on here. Yeah. Like two of my three kids Two of.

my three I said I I've been invited on. this thing. I don't know what it is. They're like, "Oh my god." Two of my. three kids have met Shane. Nice. One of. them has a picture. The one from Philly. She sent me a picture. Hell yeah. I said. I'm like, "Oh, okay." You know, so my. kids will be in touch with me about. this. So, thank you. Nice. That's all. >> Cuz like for once they're impressed. >> going to call. Yeah. >> [laughter]. >> The book coming out I don't matter, but. oh, you you know, Oh, yeah. They're on. the That's That's so. cool. >> cool. That's awesome. Thank you. All. right, thank you for coming. The book's. called The Story of Stories.

Um Kevin Ashton, appreciate you. Thanks. for having me. All right. I'm about to piss my pants. >> [laughter]. >> I drank too much water this morning. Watch new episodes of Matt and Shane's. Secret Podcast on Spotify. Do it.