Zev Weinstein: The Next Generation of Big Ideas and Brave Minds | Lex Fridman Podcast #158

the following is a conversation with zev. weinstein. a young man with a brilliant bold and. hopeful mind. that i had the great fortune of talking. to on a recent afternoon. he happens to be eric weinstein's son. but i invited zev not because of that. but because i got a chance to listen to. him speak on a few occasions. and was captivated by how deeply he. thought about this world. at such a young age and i thought that. it might be fun to. explore this world of ours together with. him for time through this conversation.

quick mention of our sponsors expressvpn. grammarly grammar assistant simply safe. home security. and magic spoon low carb cereal so the. choice is. privacy grammar safety or health. choose wisely my friends and if you wish. click the sponsor links below to get a. discount and to support this podcast. as a side note let me say that zev. acknowledges. the fear associated with participating. public discourse. and is brave enough to join in at a.

young age. to push forward to change his mind. publicly to learn to articulate. difficult. nuanced ideas and grow from the. conversations that follow in this. i hope he leads the next generation of. minds that is joining and steering the. collective intelligence. of this big ant colony we think of as. our human. civilization if you enjoy this thing. subscribe on youtube review it on. apple podcast follow on spotify support. on patreon.

i'll connect with me on twitter lex. friedman. and now here's my conversation with zev. weinstein you've said that. philosophy becomes more dangerous in. difficult times. what do you mean by that interestingly i. think i mean. two things by that and i think firstly i. should. clarify when i say philosophy i sort of. mean in a. very traditional sense just thinking. ideation. and that could be reconsidering.

our notions of self in a very. traditional sense which we consider. philosophy or that could be like. technological. uh innovation i think it's important to. recognize all of these as. philosophies that we can not question. whether. it's important to promote thought i. think the other thing i should. clarify is when i say difficult times i. mean. times when nothing is growing and so. the risk for real conflict is much.

greater because people are incentivized. to. fight over the things which already. exist. i think when times are not difficult. the people with the greatest power are. usually the people who are very creative. generating a lot. and that really requires ideation or. philosophy. of some sort i think when times become. stagnant the important successful people. become.

the people who are very good at. protecting their own. pieces of the pie and taking others um. i think that those people have to be. very opposed to any sort of thinking. that could restructure. society are conventions about who. should succeed and so firstly. i mean by that that it becomes much more. dangerous. dangerous for a person to think.

deeply and question during a time. when the important people or those. concerned with. making sure no one rocks the boat you. know one example of this would be. like socrates and his execution because. everyone was happy enough to sit through. his questions before. uh there was war and poverty and. distress and afterwards it just became. too dangerous the other thing i mean by. that is that. the consequences of thinking deeply.

carry much greater potential for real. catastrophe. when everyone is desperate so. like for example you know the communist. manifesto was probably much more. dangerous. during early 1900s russia than it was. during the 1848 revolutions because. i think people were in much worse shape. and desperate people are very willing to. dive into anything. new that might bring the future without.

fully calculating whatever the. consequences or risks. might be so it is both more dangerous. for a person to have. creative ideas and those ideas are more. dangerous. when when times are tough. and by dangerous you mean it challenges. the people with power who don't who want. to maintain that power. in times of stagnation when there's not. much growth innovation.

creativity all that kind of stuff right. and we know. that if nothing new is created people. have promises that they've made about. what will be paid to whom. what debt structure is the only. possibility if stagnation lasts for. long enough is really some kind of great. conflict. great war because people have to take. from others to make good on their own. promises so we know that by denying any.

sort of. grand ideation we are accepting that. there will be some kind of great. catastrophe. and so we have to understand that. philosophy is. the most important uh. when we've seen too much stagnation for. too long. it is also very dangerous. and it's dangerous for the people who. are doing it and it's dangerous. for the people who believe it but it's. kind of our only way out. ever and again by philosophy you mean.

the bigger this is not academic. philosophy or this kind of uh. games played in the in the space of just. like moral philosophy and all those. metaphysics all that kind of stuff you. mean just thinking deeply about this. world. thinking from first principles i think. your like twitter. line involves something about like. trying to piece everything together in. first principles. so that's that's fundamentally what uh. being philosophical about this world is. and that's. where the people who are thinking deeply.

about this world are the ones who are. feeding who are the catalysts of this. growth in society and so on. yeah i i mean i also think that the real. implication. of moral philosophy. can be something that most would. consider like a real political. uh implication so i think all philosophy. really. ties together uh because there has to be. some sort of. grand structure to all thought and how.

it relates. do you think this growth. and innovation and improvement can last. forever we've seen some incredible. you know the things that humans have. been able to accomplish over the past. several hundred years is just i mean awe. inspiring and every moment in that. in that history it almost seemed like. no more could be done like we've we've. solved all the problems that are to be.

solved. and there's just historically there's. all these kind of ridiculous like bill. gates style quotes. or like it's obvious that we've uh. this new cool thing is not going to take. off. and yet it does and and so there's. there's a feeling. of the same kind of pattern that we see. in moore's law there's constant growth. and different technologies. in the modern day era in any kind of. automation over the past 100 years. do you think it's possible that we'll. keep growing this way. if we give power to the philosophers of.

our society. i think the only way that we can keep. growing this way is if we give. power to real thinkers and there's no. guarantee that that will work but we. sort of don't have. any other choice and i think you're. entirely right that this. period of both understanding the. universe. at a rate which has has never been seen. before and. invention and creativity. that these past hundred years have been.

sort of. uncharacteristic uh for the level of. growth. that we've seen not in all of history. we've never seen anything. like this and i think a lot of our. a lot of our promises rest on. this sort of thing continuing i think. that's very. that's very dangerous but the one thing. that can get us out of this is. philosophy and being ready to radically.

restructure all of our notions about. what should be what is. i think that's very important so you. think deeply about this world. you are clearly this embodiment of a. think of a philosopher. your dad is also one such guy eric. weinstein. do you just do you have big. disagreements with him on this topic in. particular. i think now people should know he also. happens to be in the room. but uh the mics can't pick him up so he. can uh heckle it doesn't even matter.

but do you have disagreements with him. on this point let me. um try to summarize this argument that. we were actually. based a lot of our american society. on the belief that things will keep. growing and yet. it seems that however you break it apart. maybe from an economics perspective. that they're not growing currently and. so that's where a lot of our troubles. are. at do you have the same sense that. things there's a stagnation period.

that we're living through over the past. couple of decades i think. stagnation modern stagnation is. completely. undeniable particularly scientifically. and i think there have been a few fields. where tremendous. progress has been made very recently i. think. my dad might feel that uh. there is sort of an inevitability to. the ending of this period and.

i'm not so certain so certain that uh. the fall of this great time is. completely inevitable because i don't. know. what thoughts we're capable of producing. what we're. able to reconsider i think we really. have to be open to the. possibility that uh all of our standard. frameworks where you know like he will. talk about. embedded growth obligations if we. continue within the same. framework then we're very susceptible to.

the dangers of whatever these. embedded growth obligations are i think. if we break the frameworks we have no. reason to believe that the problems. we're experiencing. with our current frameworks will will. follow us and i think that's the. importance of radical thought is. we don't know what the solution is but. if there is a solution it will be born. from some very fundamental. thinking and so i've i have great hope. so you have. optimism about sort of the power of a. single radical idea or a single radical.

thinker. to break our frameworks and. uh break us out of this like uh spiral. down. due to whatever the the economic forces. that are. creating uh this current stagnation yeah. i'm very very hopeful the optimism of. youth. well i share uh i share your optimism so. let me let me come back to something. you've also talked about you have very. little stuff out there currently. but the things you have out there your.

thoughts. you could just tell how deeply you think. about this world and one of the things. you mentioned. is as you learn about. this world is that you as you read as. you sort of uh. go through different experiences that. you. um that you're open to changing your. mind. how often do you find yourself changing. your mind do you think. zev from 10 years into the future will. look back at like at this conversation. we're having now. and uh disagree completely with.

everything you just said. it's entirely possible and that's one of. the things that scares me. so much about appearing publicly. i think that the internet can be very. intolerant of inconsistency and. i am entirely prepared to be very. inconsistent because. i know that whatever beliefs i have. when subjected to scrutiny may change. because. that's that's really the only way to to.

form your truest. most fundamental conceptions about the. world around you. and it would take an infinite amount of. time to subject every single one of your. beliefs to scrutiny and so that's a a. process that. must follow me throughout my entire life. and i know that means that my opinions. and. perspectives are always to be. changing i'm prepared to accept that. about myself.

whether other people are prepared to. accept that my uh. public opinions may may change and. vary greatly over time is something i i. don't know i don't know how tolerant the. the world will be but i'm very prepared. to change. anything i i believe in if i think. deeply enough about it or a good enough. argument is. made so that i i might reconsider well. that's there certainly is currently an.

intolerance and that's what the one of. the problems of our age there's an. intolerance towards change. and i'll also ask you about labels you. talked about so we like to bend each. other into different categories. blue or red or whatever the different. categorization is. but it seems like the task before you. as a young person defining our future is. to make. a tolerance of change the the norm. doing this podcast for example and then.

changing your mind one or two years. later. and doing so publicly without a big. dramatic thing. or maybe changing it on a daily basis uh. and just being open about it and being. transparent about your thought process. maybe. that is the beacon of hope for the. philosophical. way uh the path of the philosopher. so that's your task in in a sense is to. change your mind openly. and bravely you know you're right and. maybe. i will just have to endure some sort of.

criticism. for doing that but i think that's very. important i think this ties back to. this previous facet of our conversation. where we were. discussing if uh you know thinkers would. win. over systems that are devoted to. preventing radical thought. or if uh you know. who will win the the systems or the or. the thinkers i think it's crucial. that my generation uh.

take up a hand in this fight and i think. it's important that i'm. a part of that because i know that i. have some opportunity. to um. there is i think it is my obligation as. a member of a. generation whose only real hope is to. think outside of a system. because whatever systems exist are. collapsing i think it is really my my. obligation to try to.

play some role whatever role i can and. being an instrument uh in in that change. are you uh as a young mind do you have a. sense of fear. about just like how afraid were you to. do this. podcast conversation do you have a sense. of fear of thinking publicly. yeah i i don't even think that that fear. is irrational. it's very difficult to exist publicly in. any form. now because it's very easy for anyone to.

take. cheap shots at something which is. difficult. and as i said the people who are. trying to have the difficult ideas and. conversations. are perhaps putting others in in actual. danger because everyone is so desperate. that they're they're. they might be they might be willing to. to try anything. so um there's a certain amount of. responsibility which. one has to take going before the public.

and there is a certain amount of uh. ridicule which will be completely. unwarranted that. anyone must endure for it. um and i think that it means that the. one has to be afraid because they could. both. ruin the world and be ruined by the. world in in. an unwarranted and undeserved fashion. um i would like.

to believe in myself enough to try to. accept this as a task. because i think people need to try or. there's no getting out of this and. we will end in some kind of crazy. brilliant war. awfully put you've said also that uh in. these times we can't have labels because. it holds us. holds us back maybe we've already talked. about a little bit. but this idea of labels is really. interesting uh why do you think. labels hold us back well.

i think many underestimate the extent to. which. language and communication. really impacts and shapes the ideas. and thoughts which are being. communicated and i think. if we're willing to accept uh imperfect. labels. uh to categorize particular people or. thoughts. in some sense we are corrupting. an abstraction in order to represent it.

and communicate about it. and i think as we've discussed those. abstractions are particularly. important when everything is on fire um. we should not be sacrificing. uh grand thought for the ability to. express it i think everyone should work. much harder including myself to really. be thinking abstractly in. abstract terms instead of using concrete.

terms to. discuss abstraction while ruining it. slightly. yeah it's uh it's kind of a skill. actually so one. one really difficult example. of in this uh in the recent time that. maybe you can comment on. uh if you have been thinking about it is. just politics. and there's a lot of labels in politics. that. it takes a lot of skill to be able to. communicate difficult ideas.

without labels being attached to you. that's something i've been sort of. thinking about a lot. in uh trying to express for example how. much i love various aspects. of the foundational ideas of this. country like freedom. and just saying i love america. as a simple statement i love the ideas. that we're finding to america. will often in the current time well. people will try. to desperately try to attach a label to. me for example for saying i love america.

that i'm. a republican a donald trump supporter. and it takes. elegance and grace and skill to like. to like avoid those labels so that. people can actually listen to the. contents of your words. versus uh the summarization that results. from just the. the labels that they can pin on you are. you cognizant of the skill required. there. of being able to communicate without. being branded the republican or democrat.

in this particular. set of conversations i'm sure there's. other dangerous labels that could be. attached. i don't think there's any way of. avoiding that right now. it might not be anyone's best effort to. really try i think the thing i can say. which will. most speak to that which i truly believe. is that participating. in modern conventional politics.

is not being inherently political in a. generative. sense it's it's this it's this repeated. trope where politics now is not about. creating new political ideologies it's. about defending ideologies which already. exists so that everyone can keep what. they have. and that's where all of the the name. calling and. the labeling really comes in it's an. attempt. to constrict whatever.

may be generated to standard. conversations and discussions so that. arguments can be strawmanned and. defeated and people can keep what they. have because everyone's. very very scared. i want to be very political but not. in a standard political sense where i'm. defending a particular party or. place on a on a spectrum i would like to.

play some role in inventing new. spectrums and i think that's most. important. politically because above. most else politics is about. real power and conventional politicians. have. real power uh and that power will. find terrible outlets if new spectrums. for that power to live are not invented. so. so you're not afraid of politics. political discourse. at the deepest richest uh level.

of what political discourse is supposed. to mean actually i'm i'm very afraid of. it but. once again we we have no it's not. paralyzing for you. that you feel like it's a responsibility. you're ready to take it on yes. this is a good sign this is uh you're a. special human. okay let's talk uh maybe fun maybe. profound. uh we talked about philosopher's. philosophy. uh who's your favorite philosopher who. like somebody. in your current time been either.

influential. or you just enjoy uh. his her ideas or writing or anything. like that. weirdly i'll i'll give an answer which. sort of doesn't have much to do with. whom i might imagine myself to be i like. thomas aquinas at the moment i think. he's very inspirational to me. given what we're going through and. that's not because his. particular ideas of.

religion or god or unmoved movers. are particularly uh inspirational. to me and they i don't even think they. were necessarily right. um but he was. introducing aspects of the scientific. method. during one of the darkest periods in. human history when we had lost all. hope and reason and ability to think.

logically. so i think he was really something of. a light in the dark and i think we need. to look to people. like that at the moment the other reason. why. i think i need to uh need to learn from. him. is that even though he was doing. something which really needed. needed to be done and uh introducing. scientific thought and reason to. a time that that lacked it um.

he was not saying anything that. would have been offensive to whatever. powers were. in play during his time he was writing. about. you know the importance of of faith in. god and how we could. prove it and so it's important to. remember. i suppose that having. ideas that shape the world and which. bring the world closer to what we can. prove. it's supposed to be and how it's.

supposed to work does not always take. some sort of grand contradiction. of whatever is in play and. the most courageous thing to do may not. always be the most. helpful thing to do and i think. it's it's very easy for anyone with. uh ideas about how everything is is. broken to become. very cynical and say oh the system man. they're they're all wrong. yeah um i think it takes.

another kind of discipline to be a. person with. real ideas and to. make the world better without stepping. on anyone's toes or. contradicting anyone i have real respect. for that so being able to be. when it's within your principles to. operate within the current system of. thought. yeah and not not offend anyone not. say anything outlandish but. introduce the method by which progress. must be achieved i think that takes a.

kind of. maturity which is found very rarely. uh now and i really look to him for. inspiration despite whatever. disagreements i may have with the. my new details of his philosophy yeah it. takes a lot of. skill a lot of character and yeah. deep thinking to be able to operate. within the system. when needed and having the fortitude. and just the boldness to step outside.

and to burn the system down when needed. but rarely. and opportune moments that would. actually have. impact i mean it's ultimately about. impact within the society that you live. in. not just making a statement that has no. impact. yeah and we were talking about how. dangerous. it is to do real philosophy at. dangerous broken times. he was going through the most broken. time in history. and he questioned.

the the methods which made a. broken system uh able to survive. and he was so skilled and so graceful. that he became a saint. in that tradition and there's something. for me to really. learn from there do you draw any. inspiration have any interest in the. sort of more modern philosophers. maybe the existentialists i mean. nietzsche is one of the. the early ones do you have thoughts.

on the guy in general or any of the. other existentialists well. with regard to nietzsche i think i think. yates might have said that he's the. worst you know he was it was certainly. filled with. with passionate intensity um. is that a compliment he was the worst. or uh or her criticism yates said this. has this big line the the best lack all. conviction the worst are filled with. passing passionate intensity um. so um.

i think nietzsche was was. destroyed by the the horrors of. everything that uh. that went on around him and i think he. never really. recovered from it i think that's because. if you think about nietzsche's. philosophy he was very opposed to any. sort of. acceptance of what one had one should.

always envy those who have more. and use that envy to uh to fuel their. their growth and become you know. accept whatever the the human condition. and desires are. and use use those desires to want more. and more and. and make use of your greed i think. it's very difficult to be. truly happy if. the thing which you uh.

the thing which you pride yourself most. on. is uh never being satisfied and i think. nietzsche was never satisfied and that. was the. the danger of his philosophy i think. also with his. immoralism you know there is no good or. evil. i sort of disagree with that on a pretty. fundamental. basis i think that um. our notion of morality is by no means. subjective it's really the proxy for.

the fitness of a society i think. whatever we consider ethical like don't. steal. don't murder don't do this. societies have a very difficult time. running it's very hard to run a. civilization when. everyone is stealing from everyone else. and people are. murdering each other and committing. these things which. we would consider uh atrocities so.

i think we also we know this because. i think very similar notions of morality. have. evolved convergently from different. traditions i think. good is a proxy for a. civilization's fitness and. the good news is that that means that. evil in being anathema to that good.

uh must therefore be uh. the opposite of stable in whatever way. that it's evil. and that means that good will always be. more stable than. evil and the only way evil can really. win is like if everyone dies. so um so wait uh can you say can you say. that again good is a proxy for society's. uh. what good is a proxy for the stability. and fitness of the civilization i. believe. and you know that's a good definition.

thank you so you're throwing some bombs. today okay all right. okay um this is exciting sorry sorry. interrupt your uh. flow there but just a good damn good one. thank you. uh so in that sense that's kind of. optimistic view that. if by definition good is a proxy for. stability then it's going to be stable. unless the entire world just blows. itself up so good wins in the end by. definition. yeah or uh no actually well.

good wins unless it all goes to. uh complete destruction beauty that's a. beautifully put. thank you on the topic of um. sort of you know good in evil being. human illusions. you've said that uh more broadly than. that about truth. that it is easier in some ways to be. unified under truth. because it is universal than it is to be. unified under belief which at times can.

be completely subjective. so what is the nature of truth to you. can can we understand the world. objectively or is. most of what we can understand about the. world is just. uh subjective opinions that we kind of. all. agree on in these little collectives and. over time it kind of evolves. completely detached from objective. reality i think. this is the greatest argument for.

objectivity. uh is that something that is. objectively true cannot be true to me. and. untrue to to you you can feel that it's. that it's untrue but that would be uh. unproductive. and create unnecessary tension. and conflict i think this is. one reason for the importance of science. as a tool for. stability if science is.

the search for truth. um and truth can never really be. i shouldn't say that truth should never. be an engine. of conflict because no two people should. disagree on something which is. objectively true then in some sense. search for truth. is searching for a common ground. where we can all exist and. live without contradicting or attacking.

each other. do you ever hope that there is a lot of. common ground to be discovered. sure i mean if we continue. scientifically. uh we are discovering truth and in that. discovering common ground on which we. can all agree that's that's one reason. why i think. uh caring about science if you have a. culture which cares very deeply about. science. that's a culture which is not. necessarily bound to. injure unwarranted internal.

conflict i think that's one reason that. i'm so passionate about science is its. search for universal ground let me just. throw out an example. of a modern day philosophical thinker. will keep your uh. dad eric weinstein out of the picture. for a sec. but he does happen to be an example of. one but jordan peterson is an example of. another. somebody who thinks deeply about this. world um. his ideas are by certain percent of the. population sort of speaking of truth.

are labeled as dangerous. why do you think his ideas or just ideas. of these kinds of deep thinkers. in general are labeled as dangerous in. our modern world. is it similar to what you've been. discussing that. in difficult times philosophers become. dangerous. was there something specific about these. particular thinkers in our time. well i think jordan peterson is very. anti-establishment in a lot of his. uh beliefs he's an unconventional.

thinker and i think we need. regardless of whatever uh jordan's. particular. views and beliefs are and if they uh. bring about. more danger than uh truth or. uh if if they don't it's very important. to have. fundamental thinkers who exist outside. of. a conventional framework so.

do i think that he's dangerous. i think by existing outside of. a system which is known he is dangerous. and i think we have to. in some sense we have to welcome danger. in that. capacity because it will be our only way. out of this so i'm. regardless of whether his beliefs are.

right or wrong i am. pretty adamant about the fact that we. need to support. um thought which may rescue us and that. thought can. appear radical or dangerous at times but. ultimately if you allow for it. this is kind of the difficult discussion. of free speech and so on. is ultimately difficult. ideas will pave the way for progress.

yeah and i'd actually i'd like to to. slow you down there because. i think like one of the issues we were. discussing. previously was the fact that language. often destroys our ability to. think um when we're talking about. whether his. ideas are a radical i don't know if we. if we mean radical in the traditional. sense of having to. to do with the root of a problem or.

in the more modern sense of being um. very extreme and i think that's. completely. by design i think. fundamental thought which. semantically would once be considered. radical thought. became very dangerous and now it's. become synonymous with. extreme or dangerous thought which means. that anyone who considers themself a. radical. thinker is semantically also a dangerous.

or extreme thinker these are not helpful. labels. in a sense that the moment you say. radical or extremist. thinker then you're just uh. well how do i put it you're not being. you're not helping. the public discourse exchange of ideas. but through no fault of our own the. concept of radical as having to do with. a root is uh it's a it's an obvious.

concept for which there must be language. and. a lot of the attack on thought has to do. with attacking. language which communicates. conceptually so like this is an example. of how. our world is becoming increasingly. orwellian. it's just language is being used to. destroy our. ability to uh to think i think i can't. remember exactly what the numbers are. but i read some statistic about. how greatly the average english.

vocabulary has decreased. since 1960. it was like some. incredible number it really baffled me. it's like how are. how are people less able to to think in. a time when. the world is supposed to be growing at a. never before seen. rate it's like we can't keep on. we can't sustain this growth if. we destroy everyone's ability to think. because. the growth requires thinking and we're.

we're ruining. the tools for it i watched your uh your. podcast with. noam chomsky and i i think one. interesting thing which he discussed was. how. language is more used to develop. thoughts within our own head than it is. used to communicate those thoughts. with others if the language doesn't. change. even if its usage changes then. when language is destroyed in.

communication it also. stymies our ability to to think. reasonably and i'm very very. worried so but the language. in communication uh requires a medium. and there's a lot of different mediums. so there's. uh social media there's twitter there's. uh. writing books there's blog posts there's. um. podcasts there's a youtube videos.

all of things you have uh dipped a toe. in. in your exploration of different mediums. of communication. yeah which do you see yourself. this might be just a poetic way of. asking are you going to do a podcast but. a broad broader picture what do you. think. as an intellectual in this world for you. personally would be the path for. communicating your ideas to the world. what are the mediums you. you are currently drawn to out of the.

ones i mentioned maybe something i. didn't. to answer your your question concretely. before. uh abstractly uh i'm scared but i need. i need to do a podcast you know it's. it's important. it is my obligation as a member of my. generation. i i really hope that more people my age. start to do this because. we will be the people in charge of new. ideas which either. sink or uh or swim how upset would your.

dad be. when your podcast quickly becomes more. popular than his. i think he would be negatively upset. also you'd be proud. he's a good dad i i really think so yeah. sorry to interrupt uh uh yes so but then. zooming out. do you think podcast are you excited by. the possibility of other mediums outside. of podcasting to communicate. ideas i would be if people still. read books or did things like that uh.

i'm somewhat guilty of this a lot of the. books i i read are. um very technical and then. my to absorb like really deep. modern conversations i listen to uh. i listen to podcasts and i don't really. read many uh books on like the matters. that we're. discussing for example it's fascinating. because you're making me think of. something um. that i align with you very much of how i.

consume deep thinkers currently. so what happens is somebody who thinks. deeply about the world. will write a book jordan penis an. example and instead of reading their. book. i'll just listen to podcast. conversations of them talking about the. book. which i find to this is really. sad but i find that to be a more. compelling way to. think about their ideas because they're. often challenged. in certain ways in those conversations.

and they're forced to. after having boiled them down and really. thought to them enough to write a book. so it's almost like they needed to go. through the process of writing a book. just so they can think through. convert the language in their minds into. something more concrete. and then the actual exchange of ideas. the actual communication of ideas with. the public happens not with the book. but after the book with that person. going on a book tour. and communicating the ideas well there. are two meanings.

i i make of why not too many people. spend much of their time reading anymore. one. one interpretation is that we've lost. our attention spans to our. phones people can't concentrate on a. page if it takes them a minute to read. we're too busy you know watching tech. talks or whatever people do. the other interpretation would be that. language and verbal communication. has as well as you know some amount of.

communication which is done through you. know facial expression. uh tone of voice etc these are means of. communication. that have evolved along with. humanity over thousands and thousands of. years. so um we know that we are built. to communicate in this way uh. we have had writing. for much less time it is a system that. we invented. not a system which evolved and.

is innately part of uh. you know humanity or the the human mind. um and so we are designed. to consume conversation by our own. evolution. we are designed to consume. writing by some process of symbols. that's evolved over a couple thousand. years.

it makes sense to me why many are much. more compelled to. listen to podcasts for example than they. are. to read books it could be that. this is simply a technological uh. progression which has displaced uh. reading conventionally instead of. some sort of maladaptation of our minds. which has.

corrupted our attention spans and likely. there's some combination. which determines why people spend much. less time. reading but i don't think it's. necessarily because we're all broken it. may. simply have to do with the fact that we. are designed to. listen and through our ears and speak. through our mouths and. we are not innately designed to. communicate uh. over a page so yeah there's an exciting. coupling to me between. like a few second tick tock videos.

that are fun and addicting and then the. three four hour. podcasts which are both really popular. in our current time so people are both. hungry for. the visual stimulation of internet humor. and memes a huge fan of and also. slow moving deep conversations. and that might you know it's there's a. lot of i mean it's part of your. generation to define what that looks. like moving forward where.

a lot of people like joe rogan is one of. the people that kind of. uh started accidentally stumbled. into the discovery that this is like a. thing yeah. and now people are kind of scrambling to. figure out why is this a thing. like why is there so much hunger for. long-form conversations. and how do we optimize that medium for. further further expression of deep ideas. and all that kind of stuff. and youtube is a really interesting. medium for that as well. like video sharing of videos.

mostly youtube is used with the spirit. of like. the tick tock spirit if i can put in. that way which is like. how do i have quick moving things that. even if you're expressing difficult. ideas they should be quick and exciting. and visual and switching. but there's a lot of exploration there. to see what can we do something. deeper and nobody knows and you're part. of the. you have a youtube channel uh releasing. one video every few years. um so so your momentum is currently.

quite slow but uh perhaps it'll. accelerate but. you're you're uh you're one of the. people that gets to define that medium. is that do you enjoy that the visual the. youtube. medium of communication as well i know. that. when the the topic of conversation. uh or the the means. by which a conversation is is. communicated or an idea is communicated. if that is sufficiently interesting to.

me. um i will read a book on it i would. listen to a podcast on it i would watch. a video. on it i think if i'm very curious about. something. i will consume it however possible i. think when i have to consume. things which really don't interest me. very much. uh i'm indeed much more ready to. consume them through some sort of video. or discussion than i am through. like a long tedious book.

so for the the for the breadth of uh. acquiring knowledge video is good. for the depth the medium doesn't matter. i think it'd be fun to ask you about. some. big philosophical questions to see if. you have an opinion on that. do you think there's a free will or is. free will. just an illusion well i think. classical mechanics would tell us that. if. we are if we were to know every piece of.

information. about a system and understand the rules. which govern that system. we would be completely able to predict. the future. with complete accuracy so. if something could know everything about. our lives. it could freeze time and and understand. the position of every. neuron in my mind about about to fire um. no decision could be uh.

unpredictable there in some sense there. is that sort of uh. that sort of fate i think that doesn't. make the decisions we make. illegitimate even if some grand super. computer could. understand what decisions we would make. beforehand with. complete certainty i think we're making. legitimate systems. uh within a system that has no freedom. we're making legitimate systems within a. system that has no freedom can you.

explain. what you mean by that yeah so. if we were to have uh just a simple. pendulum and i told you how long the. the rope was i i we froze it at a. particular. uh point and i told you how high high. above the ground. the weight was and uh. you know the motion of a of a pendulum. is something which is. it's easy for everyone to imagine um.

i could if we had all of that. information. you could ask me where will the what. will the pendulum do. six and a half minutes from now and we. would have a precise. answer that's like a that's an example. of a very simple. system with a very simple lagrangian um. and we could completely predict the the. future that the pendulum has no. ability to do anything that would. surprise us. weirdly that's true of whatever this.

four-dimensional crazy world we live in. looks like if we were to if we were to. understand where every piece of this. system was at any given time. and we we understand the the laws of. motion how everything. worked if we could compute all of that. information somehow which we won't never. be able to do. uh we would. every decision you you will ever make.

could be predicted by that. computer that doesn't mean that your. decisions are illegitimate you are. really making those. decisions but with a completely. predictable. outcome so i'm just uh sort of a little. bit high at the moment on the uh. on this on the poetry of a system within. a system that has no freedom. so the human experience is the system. we've created. within the system there's no freedom but. that system that we've created.

has a feeling of freedom. that to us ants. feels as uh. much more real than the. the physics as we understand it of the. underlying. like base system so it's almost like not. important what the physics of the base. system is. that for the what we've created the. nature of the human experience. is uh there is a free will.

or there's something that feels uh close. enough to a free will. that it may not be uh. worth uh spending too much time on. the fact that it's something of an. illusion we will never build a computer. that knows everything about every. piece of the universe at a given time uh. and so for all intensive purposes uh. our decisions are up to us we just. happen to know that their outcomes could.

be predicted with enough information. so um speaking of super computers they. can predict every single thing about the. uh. what's going to ever happen uh what do. you think about. the philosophical thought experiment. of us living in a simulation do you. often find yourself pondering of us. living in a simulation. of this question do you think it is at. all a useful thought experiment. i think it's very easy to become.

fascinated. with all of these possibilities and. they're completely legitimate. uh possibilities you know like do i. is there some validity to. like solipsism uh while it can never be. falsified or disproven so i mean. sure you could be a figment of my uh. imagination uh it doesn't mean that. i will act according to this possibility. i'm not going to. call you mean names and just to test the.

system uh to see how robust it is to. distortions yeah so i mean all of these. existential. thought experiments are completely. possible we could be brains and jars. it doesn't mean that our experience. will feel any less valid and so it. doesn't make a difference to me. if uh you were some. number of of ones and zeros or you were.

a figment of my. imagination which lives in a in a stored. stored away brain. uh it will never really change my. experience. knowing that that's a possibility and so. i try to i try to avoid making. decisions based on such contemplations. you know if we take this this previous. issue of free will. um i could i could decide. that because i have no.

choice in my life if i. lie around in bed all day and eat chips. i was destined to do that thing and if i. make that decision then i was destined. to do that thing. it would be a really poor decision uh. for me to make i have. school and a a dozen commitments uh. there's somebody listening to this right. now probably. hundreds of people sitting down eating. chips. and feeling terrible about themselves. those are how dare you sir if they're.

listening. to this they're purely they're clearly. curious about um. possibilities of of thought it's not the. it's not the bed and the chips that. okay it makes the man it's not the. better the chips the makes man yet. another. quotable from zev weinstein okay uh. but you don't think of it as a useful. thought experiment from an engineering. perspective. of you know virtual reality. of thinking how we can create further.

and further immersive worlds. like would it be possible to create. worlds that are so immersive that. we would rather live in that world. versus the real world. i mean that's another possible. trajectory of the world that you're. growing up in. is where more and more immersing. ourselves. into the digital world for now it's. screens and looking the screens and. socializing the screens. but it's possible to potentially create. a world that's also visually for all of. our. human senses as immersive as the.

physical world. and then you know it's to me it's an. engineering question of how difficult is. it to create a. world that's as immersive and more fun. than uh the world would currently live. in it's a terrifying concept and i hate. to say it. we might live happier lives in a virtual. reality headset 30 years from now. then we are currently living this future. the digital future worries you it.

worries me. on the other hand it may be it may be a. better. alternative to um fighting for. whatever people are clinging on to in. our non-virtual world or at least the. world that we don't. yet know is virtual so embrace the. future. we've been talking a lot about thinkers. now in the broad definition of. philosophy you kind of included.

innovators of all. forms do you find it useful to draw a. distinction between. thinkers and doers i think that. the most important gift we've ever been. given is our ability to. observe the universe and think. deductively. about whatever principles transcend. humanity. because you know as we discussed that's. that's the closest thing we will ever. have to.

um a universal experience is. understanding things which. must be true um everywhere. in order for that so. i think if if we're if we're deciding. that that life is. is meaningful and the human experience. is meaningful. uh you could make a very convincing. argument that. its greatest meaning will be. understanding whatever. transcends it um. i think that's only sustainable if.

people are happy. and well fed and. things of of market value are. invented and so i think we really need. both to live meaningful and. successful and possible lives. in terms of like who who my greatest. heroes are i can't decide between.

figures like uh einstein and. newton and feynman and on the other hand. figures like carrie mullis. for example i think. people like einstein make our lives. meaningful. and people like carrie mullis. who's probably responsible for saving. hundreds of millions of lives. make our make our lives possible. and uh good.

so in terms of where i would like to. find myself. uh. with these two different uh notions of. achievement. i don't know what i would more like to. achieve. i have an inclination that it will be. something scientific because i would. like to bring meaning to humanity. instead of uh sustenance. but i think both are very important we.

can't. we can't sustain our lives if we don't. keep growing technologically. i think people like you are making that. possible with. uh like computing because that's one of. the few things that's really. moving forward in a in a clear sense. um. i think i think about this a great deal. so i think both are very important so. one example that's modern day. uh inspiring figure on the on the latter.

part and the engineering part. on the sustenance is elon musk. is that somebody you draw inspiration. from. what are your thoughts in general about. the. kind of unique. speck of human that's creating so much. uh inspiring innovation in this world. so boldly i know that we will not. survive without people like that um.

elon is a ridiculous and sensational. example of one of these. figures i don't know if he's. the best example or the worst example. but he is he is of his own kind. he is radically individualistic and. those are the people who will allow us. to continue uh. as as humans i'm very happy that that we. have people like that in this world.

you said this thing about if. we are to say that life has meaning. our life is meaningful then you could. argue. that it is a worthy pursuit to transcend. life do you see. that another just i'm gonna have to. i'm gonna have to go back um and sleep. on that one. uh do you do you draw some speaking of.

elon. some inspiration. of us uh. transcending earth of us moving outside. of uh this particular planet. that we've called home for a long time. and colonizing other planets. and perhaps one day expanding outside. the solar system. and uh expanding colonizing our galaxy. and beyond. honestly i know very little about space.

exploration. i think it makes complete sense to me. why. we are starting to think very seriously. about it it's. an amazing and baffling and innovative. solution to a lot of problems we see. as a world population i can't really. offer. very much uh of interest on. the topic i think when i i'm talking. about. like transcending humanity and.

transcending earth. i'm talking usually about. deriving truth and that's one of the. things that makes like theoretical math. and physics. so interesting it's like i i really. really love. biology for example but. biology is a combination. of whatever principles ensure evolution. and whatever weird coincidences happened.

billions of years ago. um so g is more interesting to. understand the fundamental mechanisms of. evolution for example than it is. the results the messy results of its. processes. i can't say which is more interesting i. can say which i think is more. is more deep i think theory. and abstraction which can be achieved. completely deductively. is deeper because it has nothing to do. with circumstance and everything to do.

with uh logic and thought. uh so like if we were ever to. to interact with aliens for example uh. we would not have our biology in common. if if these were or some sort of really. intelligent. life form uh we would have. math and physics in common because uh. the laws of physics will be the same.

every everywhere in the universe. our particular anatomy and. biology pertains only to life on this. on this planet and the principles may. apply more. ubiquitously do you ever think about. aliens like what they might look like. i try to when i i deal with thought. experiments like these. i try to keep a very abstract. mindset and i notice that whenever.

i try to instantiate these abstractions. i i corrupt whatever thoughts. uh there are for which they're useful so. it's kind of like the labels discussion. so like the moment you try to. make it concrete it's probably gonna. look like some cute version of a human. a big like it's the little green fellas. with the. eyes and so on or whatever whatever the. movies uh. have instilled like your cultural.

upbringing you're going to project. onto that and the assumptions you have. it's interesting so you prefer to. step away and think and abstract notions. of what it means to be intelligent what. it means to be. a living life form and all that kind of. stuff i try to. i almost try to pretend i'm i'm blind. and i'm. deaf and i'm only. a mind with no inductive reasoning. capacity when i'm trying to think about. thought experiments like these because i. know that.

if i incorporate whatever my eyes. instruct my brain i will. i will impede my ability to. think as deeply as possible because once. again it's. the thing which shallows our thought can. be the incorporation of circumstance and. coincidence. and for particular kinds of thought. that's very important i'm not. discounting the use of inductive. reasoning.

in many humanities and in many sciences. but for the deepest of thoughts. once again i i feel it's important to. try to transcend. whatever uh methods of observation. characterize human experience. see but within that that's all really. beautifully put i i wonder. if there is a common mathematics and. common physics between us and alien. beings. we still have to make concrete the.

methods of communication. yeah uh and that's a fascinating. question of like. while remaining in these abstract. fundamental ideas how do we communicate. with. them i mean that i suppose that question. could be applied to. different cultures on earth. with finding a common language do you. think about that kind of problem. of basically communicating abstract. fundamental ideas. my least favorite aspect of math or.

physics or any of these really deep. sciences. is the symbolic component you know i'm. i'm dyslexic i don't like looking at at. symbols. they're too often a source of of. ambiguity. and i think you're entirely right that. if one thing holds us. back with um. communication with something that. behaves or looks nothing like us i think. if one thing. holds us back uh it will be symbols.

and the communication of. deep thought because as i said i think. communication. frequently compromises thought uh by. intention. or by just uh theoretical. inadequacy so in this topic actually. it'd be fun to see what your thoughts. are. uh do you think math is uh. invented or discovered so you said that. math we might share. ideas in mathematics and physics.

with alien life forms so it's uniform in. some sense of uniform throughout the. universe. what uh do you think this thing that we. call mathematics. is uh something that's kind of. fundamental to the world we live in or. is it just some kind of uh. pretty axioms and theorems have come up. with to try to describe the. the patterns we see in the world uh i. think it's. completely discovered and completely.

fundamental. to all experience i think the only. component. of mathematics that has been invented is. the expression. of it and i think in some sense there's. almost. uh an arrogance required to. believe that whatever aspect. we invent having to do with. math and physics and theory there is an.

arrogance. required to truly believe that that. belongs on any sort of stage. with the actual beauty of the matters. being. discovered so um. we need our minds and in some sense are. our pens to be able to play with these. things and communicate. about them and those hands and those are.

and those pens are the things which. smudge the most beautiful thing that. humanity can ever. um experience and. maybe if we interact with some. intelligent life form. uh they will have their own unique. smudges. but the canvas uh which is beautiful. must be identical because that is. universal and. ubiquitous truth and that's what makes. it deep and and meaningful is that it's.

so. much more important than uh. whatever we're programmed to enjoy as an. aspect of. human experience yeah that um. that's really beautifully put and that's. the human language is. these messy smudges of trying to express. something underlying that is. beautiful speaking of that. uh on the physics side do you think. the pursuit of a theory of everything in.

physics. as we may call it in our current times. of understanding the basic. fabric of reality from a physics. perspective. is an important pursuit i think it's. essential. as i've said i think ideation is. our only escape from the. constraints of human condition and. i think that it's important that all. great thoughts and ideas. are bound together and i think.

the math is beautiful and it ensures. that. the things which bind great ideas which. have already been had and great. discoveries together. it uh it it ensures that those. strings will be beautiful uh. i think it's very important to unify all. theories that have brought us to to. where we are do you think. humans can do it do you think humans can. solve this puzzle is it possible that.

we with our limited cognitive capacity. will never be able to truly understand. this deep like deeply understand this. underlying canvas i think if not. it will be people like you who invent. uh some sort of. i don't know we'll call it computation. for now that we'll be. um able to.

not only discover that which. transcends humanity but to transcend. human methods of discovering that which. is above it. so super intelligent systems agi and so. on that. that are better physicists than us i. wonder if you might be able to comment. so your dad does happen to be somebody. who boldly seeks. this kind of deep understanding of. physic. the underlying nature of reality from a. physics perspective.

from a mathematical physics perspective. do you have hope your dad figures it out. i have great hope. you know it's not it's not supposed to. be my journey it's supposed to be his. journey. it's supposed to be his to uh express to. the world. obviously i'm i'm so proud that i'm. connected. to someone who is determined to do such. a thing. and on the other hand uh you know maybe. in some sense i i feel bad for him for.

having to if he's gonna be the the thing. which. which discovers some sort of grand. unified. theory and expresses it i feel sorry. that he will have to. to smudge um whatever. canvas this thing is because because. he's human really i think. i know i've seen a little bit of what i. think. great math and great physics looks like. and it's. it's unbelievably beautiful and then.

you have to present it to a world with. you know like market constraints and. all of this like messy sloppiness i feel. bad. um in some sense for my dad uh. because he has to go back and forth. between this beautiful. world of math and whatever the the. messiness. is of his you know his human. life and then the scientific community. broadly with egos and tensions. exactly the dynamics of our of what.

makes us. uh human he's also very lucky that he. gets to play with these. sorts of things it's it's a mixed it's a. mixed bag. uh i both feel a little sorry for him. for having to deal with. the beauty as well as the uh. the smudging and the sloppiness of. human expression and. i think it's difficult not to envy. such a such a beautiful.

insight or life or or vision so. well that's your own path as well as. this kind of struggle of. as you mentioned exploring the beauty of. different ideas. while having to communicate those ideas. with the best smudges you can uh in a. world that wants to put labels that. wants to misinterpret that wants to. uh that wants to destroy the beauty of. those ideas. and that's you seem to at this time with.

your youthful enthusiasm. uh embracing that struggle uh despite. the fear in the face of fear so. and uh your dad also carries that same. youthful. enthusiasm as well but that said. you know your dad eric weinstein he's a. powerful voice i would say apart from. intellect in public discourse. is this a burden for you. or an inspiration or both. as a young mind yourself i think.

as i said there's this there's this. weird contrast. of um you know i know that he has. ideas which i think are very beautiful. and i know he has to deal with. um the sort of. there's there's something you you have. to sacrifice in. beauty uh when you bring it to. a world which is not always um. beautiful um and there's there's an.

aspect of that which. sort of scares me about this kind of. thing. i also think that um. especially since i'm trying to think. about how i should appear. publicly my dad has been. very inspirational and that i think he's. he brings a sort of. fastidious care to very difficult. conversations that what does facidious. mean um like. it's just very careful and um.

thoughtful um he brings. that sort of attitude to um i think. really difficult conversations and. i know that i don't have that skill yet. i don't think i'm terrible. but the care the nuance and yet not. being afraid. to push forward yeah i would really like. to to learn from. my dad there i think also my dad has. been. very important uh to my life just.

because. i've always been a sort of very. idiosyncratic. thinker um and. i think i don't always know how to. interact with the world for those sorts. of reasons. and i think my dad has always been. similar and if not for my dad i don't. know if i. would just believe that like i was. stupid or something. um because i wouldn't know how to.

how to i don't know if i would know how. to interpret uh. my differences from convention so. so he gave you he gave you the power to. be. different and use that as a superpower. yeah i guess you could you could put it. that way. i don't know who i would believe i am. if uh i didn't. have my dad telling me that it wasn't my. own stupidity which. alienated me from certain aspects of.

standard life. so i'm very very thankful for that is. there a fond memory you have. about an interaction with your dad. either funny profound. that kind of sticks with you now. a lot part. part of the reason i asked that of. course it's just fascinating. to see somebody as brilliant as you see. how your. the people that you interact with how. they form the mind that you have.

but also to give an insight of another. public uh figure like your dad to see. from your perspective. of um what kind of little magical. moments happen in private life. i would say i remember i think i just. posted about this on on instagram or. something. i re otherwise it didn't happen if you. didn't post that yeah one person who's. always. sort of mattered to whatever weird. life and experience i've had has been.

this this comedian tom lehrer. um do you do you know him yes yes. i love him very much likewise um. anyway i remember i think i was five or. something. my dad came home with the with the cd. this. tom lehrer cd and he told me to to. listen to it and it was all of this like. bizarre uh satirical writing about you. know like. prostitution and cutting up babies and. like all kinds of like.

ridiculously vile um content for. for a five-year-old i think. beyond just my love of of tom lehrer. i think it was a way for my dad to. express. that from a very young age she was. he was really ready to treat me like an. adult and he was ready to. to trust me and share. um share his his life and his.

enjoyments with me um in a way that. was unconventional because he was. willing to uh discard. tradition for the chance at a really. unique and meaningful uh. parental relationship so trusting that. the his particular brand of weirdness. is something you can understand at a. young age and embrace and learn from it. tom lehrer we should clarify is not all.

about what is it murder and prostitution. he's one of the wittiest. most brilliant musical artists if if you. haven't listened. uh to his work you should he's just. uh a rare intellect who's able to sort. of. in catchy rhyme express some really. difficult ideas and sat. through satire i suppose. that still even though it's decades ago. still resonates today some of the ideas. that he expressed. i will say also that um i think i am.

probably. uh a a more cultured person having. listened to tom lehrer than i would have. been. without i think a lot of his comedy. draws upon. a canon that i was really driven to to. research by saying oh. what does this mean i don't understand. that reference there are a lot of. references there to. um really really inspirational. things which he sort of assumes going. into a lot of his songs and for many of. us like like me you have to piece those.

things. together you know looking at wikipedia. pages and whatnot but. um to tie this back to the original. question. i think um. i think there's sort of uh a break it. you bought it. notion of parenting i think. uh really if you're if you're not going. to accept. a standard you have to invent your own. and i think in some ways that was my. dad's way of. telling me that if i.

was too unstandard as a child he. wouldn't he would invent his own way. of parenting me because that was worth. it to him and i think that was very. meaningful to me. i know you're young this is a weird time. to ask this question. uh are you cognizant on the role of. love in your relationship with your dad. are you at a place. uh mentally as a man yourself uh to. admit that you love the guy. i love my dad like i uh.

with the connection that i think i've. had to very few things. in the world i think my dad is one of. the people that's allowed me to. see myself and i don't know. who i would imagine myself to be if not. for my dad that isn't to say that i. agree with him. on everything but i think he's given me. courage to accept myself and. to believe that i can. teach myself where i'm unable to to.

learn from convention. so i have a very i love my. dad very dearly yes is there ways in. which. you wish you could be a better son. firstly i'd like to say i'm sure before. i figure out exactly. what those are i think if i. i think whenever i come to conclusions. on what that means i'm eager to uh. to take them um. what do you mean by that uh what what do.

you mean by a conclusion. i have an idea for how to be a better. son i think. i'm i'm inclined to to try to be that. person i think that's true of almost. anything i think if i have uh ideas for. improvement. it would be wasteful not to knock to. not to act on them so um. i suppose one thing i could say is that. um i think. idealism and what could almost be.

considered naivete is not necessarily. a a lacking. of maturity but instead. an obligation to those. older than us who have. lived lived and seen too much. to fully believe.

in what is naive and right without. um. without the assistance of the young. to re-inspire uh. traditional idealism and so perhaps. instead of trying to be uh more mature. all the time i should spend some time. trying to be. an idealistic form of hope in.

the lives of people who maybe have seen. too much. to retain all of that original hope. so that's something that's that's. difficult. but you know especially appearing in. public as someone as. as young as i am i think anything i do. which is juvenile by choice will be held. against me. so but maybe that's the sacrifice that i. i have to make i have to retain some. sort of youthful. hope and optimism yeah i can't i mean uh.

i'm gonna get teary-eyed no but i have. allergies. but also this is pretty powerful you're. saying i certainly share your ideas it's. something i. struggle with of just by instinct you. should read the idiot by dostoevsky. by instinct um i love being naive. and seeing the world. from a hopeful perspective from an. optimistic perspective. and it is it's sad that that. is something you pay price for in this.

world. like in the academic world especially as. you're coming up uh. through through schooling but just. actually it's a hit on your reputation. throughout your life and it's a sad. truth but. you have to like for many things if it's. a principle. you hold you have to be willing to pay. the costs. and ultimately i believe that. in part a hopeful view will. help you realize the best version of.

yourself because. optimism is a kind of. optimism is productive like uh believing. that the world. is and can be amazing is um. allows you to create a more amazing. world somehow i mean i'm not sure if. i'm not sure if it's a human nature or a. fundamental law of physics i don't know. but uh believing the impossible in the. sense being optimistic about. the thing it's it's it's similar like. going back to what you've said.

is like believing that a radical that a. powerful single idea that a single. individual. can uh revolutionize. some framework that we're operating in. that will change the world for the. better believing that. allows you to have the chance to create. that. and so i'm with you on the optimism but. it's you may have to pay a cost. of optimism and uh naive. hopefulness i mean in some sense. optimism limits. freedom uh i think if.

we don't really have much choice in. choosing. what is perfect if it exists as. is an ideal um then. there isn't much room for for creativity. and that's a danger of optimism as. someone who. uh would like to be creative i think. i think it was warren's evonne said uh. accepting dreams you're never really. free and that's something i think about. a lot um he's an interesting guy also i.

really like him. on that topic you do have uh. a bit of an appreciation and connection. with music i saw you play some guitar a. few months ago what. what uh can you put in like a. philosophical. sense your connection to music uh what. insights about life. about just the way you see the world do. you get from music i think the role. music has played in my life was. originally motivated.

by sort of wanting to to prove things to. myself. i really have no ear for music i have a. terrible. sense of pitch and i think a lot of. music. relies on very standard teaching if you. think about. uh lessons for example music lessons. there's there's sort of a routine to. them which is so. archaic and traditional that there's no. room for for d. for deviation i think.

all of that suggested to me that i would. never have a relationship with music. i loved listening to music it was just. it was difficult to me it. sort of saddened me um i wanted to know. if there was any way. i could build a connection to music. given. who i am my own idiosyncrasies. what challenges i have i decided to try. to learn music theory before i touched. an instrument uh.

i think that gave me a very unique. opportunity instead of. spending my time fruitlessly at the. beginning on the syntax of. a particular instrument this is how you. this is your posture on the piano this. is how you hold your fingers. uh i tried instead to. learn what made music work and the the. wonderful thing about that was i'm. pretty sure that. any instrument with discreet notes is. mined for the taking within a day or so.

of having the ability to. to play with it so i think. approaching music abstractly gave me the. ability to. instantiate it uh everywhere. and i think it also taught me something. about self-teaching. like recently i've tried getting into. into classical music because. at least traditionally this is the thing. which is thought to require. the most rigor um.

and traditional uh teaching. i think it's essentially taught me even. if i'll never be. a great classical performer that. there is nothing one can't really teach. themself in this. in this era so i've been i've been. enjoying. uh whatever connection i have with with. music the other thing i'll say. about it is that it's a it's a very. rewarding. learning process we know for example.

that. music accesses. our neurochemicals very directly. and if you teach yourself a little bit. of. theory and are able to. instantiate it on an instrument without. wasting your. your time or spending your time uh. tediously. on learning the particulars of that. instrument you can instantly sit down. and access your own.

dopamine loops and so you don't really. need to motive. motivate yourself with music because you. know like you're giving your. your brain drugs you know who needs. motivation. to to give themselves drugs. and and learn something so uh. i think i think more people should be. should be playing music i think a lot of. people don't realize how how easy it can. be. to approach if you take a sort of um. unstandard approach.

and the estimated approach in your sense. was understanding the theory first. and then just from the from the. foundation of the theory. be able to then just take on any. instrument. and start creating something that sounds. reasonably good. yeah or learning something that sounds. reasonably good and then. plugging into the as you call them the. dopamine loops. of your brain allowing yourself to enjoy. the process. yeah what about the uh the pain in the.

ass. rigorous process of practice so is there. something about my dopamine loops for. example. that enjoys doing the same thing over. and over and over again and watching. myself. improve i think that's because. music is more effective at accessing us. when it's played. correctly and i think you play. i'm positive that you play music much. more correctly than i do. so if you are going to sit down and play. something that you've learned.

that piece will be much more satisfying. to your ears and to your. brain than if i were to play that piece. just sitting down within. with an instrument uh but it's sort of a. trade-off with. freedom and and rigor. uh because even if i should be spending. more. more of my time practicing rigorously i. know i don't have to to make me. happy so well jacob willink i think has.

the saying. uh the discipline is freedom so maybe uh. maybe the repetition. of uh the disciplined repetition. is actually one of the mechanisms of. achieving freedom. it's another way to get to freedom that. it doesn't have to be a constraint. but in in a sense unlocks greater sets. of opportunity. than results in a deeper experience of. freedom. maybe i mean particularly if you're. thinking about uh.

discipline and uh. method for improvisation right. there are a million pieces that you. could improvise with the same. discipline and how to approach that. improvisation. so i think. i think that's it's true that discipline. promotes freedom if you uh. insert a layer of of indirection because. i think i think if you're if you're.

trying to learn one piece that was. written 400 years ago. um and you're playing it over and over. again. there is nothing personable sorry. there's nothing personal. or creative about that process. even if it's beautiful and satisfying. there has to be some sort of discipline. applied. to the creativity of self so. i think that uh i think that is the the.

layer of indirection which reconciles. both. approaches to uh freedom and discipline. and enjoyment of music discipline. applied to the creativity. of self damn zev thank you. now as an aging. man yourself if you were to give an. advice to. young folks today of how to approach. life and maybe advice to yourself.

is there some way you could condense. a set of principles a set of advices. you would give to yourself and to other. young folks. ah of how to live life sure i would uh. i would say that with the collapse of. systems that have. um existed for thousands of years. you know like whatever is happening with. universities might be an example of some. system that. that may or may not be um decaying i.

think with. the destruction of of. important systems there is. a unique opportunity to. invest in oneself and i think. that is always the right approach. provided that the investment one makes. uh in his self is obligated towards. uh humanity as a whole and i think that. is.

that is uh the great struggle of my. generation will we create our own. paths that are capable of saving. whatever is collapsing. or will we be squashed by the. debris and i hope to. articulate uh what patterns i see this. struggle taking over the years that my. generation becomes. particularly active in the world as an.

important. force i think already we're important as. a demographic to particular markets but. i. i should hope that our voices will. matter as well uh. starting very soon so. i would i would try to think about that. that would be my advice. do you uh it's a silly question to ask. perhaps. but um and a bit of a russian one. it's silly because you're young but. i don't think it's actually silly.

because you're young. do you ponder your mortality and. are you just afraid of death in general. so tying us back to our. previous conversations about abstraction. versus. uh experience. which is determining our our notions of. our. life and our our world death. is interesting in that it is.

obviously hyper important to a person's. life and it is something that for the. most part no human will really. experience. and be able to um to reflect upon. so our notions of death. are sort of proof that if we want to. make the most of our lives. we have to think abstractly and. relying not at all at times on.

experiential. thought and understandings because. we can't really experience death and. reflect upon it hence and use it to. motivate us. it has to remain some sort of. abstraction and i think. if we have trouble comprehending. uh true abstraction we tend to view our. lives. as you know we tend to view ourselves as. nearly immortal. and i think that's very dangerous so.

one concrete implication for my belief. in abstraction. would be that we all need to be aware. of our our own deaths. and we need to we need to understand. concretely the the boundaries of our. lifetimes. and no amount of experience can really. motivate that it has to be driven by. thought and. abstraction in theory that's one of the.

deepest. elements of what it means to be human is. our ability to form abstractions about. our mortality. versus animals i think there's just. something really fundamental. about our interaction with the. abstractions of. death and uh you know there's a lot of. philosophers. uh that say that that's actually. core to everything we create in this.

world. which is like us struggling with this. impossible to. understand idea of mortality. and i mean i'm i'm drawn to this idea. because um. both the the mystery of it but also just. from the human experience perspective. it seems that you get a lot of meaning. from. stuff ending it's kind of sad the flip. side of that to think that. stuff won't be as meaningful if it.

doesn't end if it's not finite. it seems like resources gain value from. being finite. and that's true for time that's true for. the deliciousness of ice cream that's. true for love. for everything from music and so on. and uh yeah it's uh it seems. deeply human to to try to. uh as you said concretize the. abstractions of mortality even though we. can never truly. experience it because that's the whole.

point of it once it ends you can't. experience. it yeah again another ridiculous. question okay. what do you think is the meaning of it. all what's the meaning of life. from your uh your. deep thinking about this world is there. a good way to answer. any of the why questions about this. existence here on earth. and as i said we're here in part by. prince spawn in part by.

accident and a lot of the things which. bring us joy uh are. programmed to bring us joy to ensure our. evolutionary. success and so. i would not necessarily consider uh. all of the things which bring us joy uh. to be. meaningful i think they. they play a very uh a very obvious role.

in a clear pattern and we don't have. much choice in that. i think that out rules the idea. of joy being the meaning of life. i think it's um i think it's a nice. it's a nice thing we get to have even if. it's not inherently meaningful. i think the most. uh the most wonderful.

thing that we will ever that we have. ever been. given um has been. our ability to uh. as i said observe observe what. transcends us as as humans and. i think to live a meaningful life is to. see that. and hopefully contribute to that so. so to try to understand what makes us. human to transcend that.

and in some small way contribute to it. in the finite. time we have here. yeah uh those are some powerful words. thank you you're you're a truly special. human being it's really an honor to talk. to you. i can't i'm just uh. i'm a newborn fan of yours and i can't. wait to see. how you push the world please uh embrace. the fear you feel. and be bold and i think.

you will do some special things in this. world i'm confident. if the world doesn't destroy you and i. hope it doesn't be strong. be brave you're an inspiration keep. doing your thing. and thanks for talking today thank you. so much. thanks for listening to this. conversation with zev weinstein and. thank you to our sponsors. expressvpn grammarly grammar assistant. simply safe home security and magic. spoon low carb cereal.

so the choice is privacy grammar safety. or health. choose wisely my friends and if you wish. click the sponsor links below to get a. discount. and to support this podcast and now let. me leave you with some words from. aristotle. knowing yourself is the beginning of all. wisdom thank you for listening and hope. to see you. next time.