Yeonmi Park: North Korea | Lex Fridman Podcast #196

the following is a conversation with yon. mi park. a north korean defector human rights. activist. and author of the book in order to live. quick mention of our sponsors balcampo. gala games. better help and ate sleep check them out. in the description. to support this podcast let me say a few. words about north korea. from 1994 to 98 north korea went through. a famine. mass starvation caused primarily by king.

jong-il. who at the time was the new leader of. north korea. after his father's death in 1994. somewhere between. 600 000 and 3 million people. died due to starvation from all the. stories of famine in history. including my own family history i've. come to understand. that hunger tortures the human mind. in a way that can break everything we. stand for in north korea. during the 90s famine many were driven.

to cannibalism. imagine more than 10 million people. suffering starvation for months. and years always on the brink of death. we don't know the exact numbers of. people who died because the suffering. was done in silence. in darkness very little information in. or out most people had to survive. without electricity. without clean water medical supplies. sanitation. and food the north korean propaganda.

machine called this. the arduous march or the march of. suffering. and words such as famine and hunger were. banned because they implied government. failure. and once again now in 2021. kim jong-un the current leader of north. korea is calling for his country to. prepare for another arduous march. or march of suffering another period of. mass starvation. as the country closes its borders. looking. at atrocities of the past decades and.

the encroaching atrocity there now. i think about the quiet suffering of. millions of north koreans. i think about the torture of the human. spirit. i think about a north korean child who. could be a scientist. an artist a writer but who instead grows. impossibly thin. without food their bodies slowly rotting. away as their parents watch helplessly. i got emotional in this conversation. with you on me. in part because i remembered my. grandmother who survived khaldamur.

the famine in ukraine intentionally. created by stalin. where 4 to 10 million people died and. many. many more suffered imagine knowing that. if you don't engage in cannibalism. you will die before your children did. and then. they will be eaten imagine because of. this. deciding to murder and eat your own. children as many people did. imagine the kind of desperation torture. that leads up to a decision like that.

i'm not smart enough to know what evil. is. know where to draw the line between good. and evil. but stalin king jong-il kim jong-un. are men who are in the name of power are. willing to make. millions of people of children suffer. and die from starvation. i rarely have hate in my heart but i. hate these men. i hate that such men exist in this world. i hate. that the beauty i love about this life. exists.

amidst such unimaginable cruelty. i have been haunted by this conversation. by memories of my grandmother's pain. but i've also been warmed by memories of. her love. love gives me hope hope for the. perseverance of the human spirit. even in the face of evil. this is the lex friedman podcast and. here is my conversation. with yomi park can you tell your story. from north korea to today as you.

describe in your 2015 book. and with the extra perspective on life. love and freedom you've gained since. then. wow that's a long story so i was born in. the northern part of north korea. initially. and my father was a party member. and my mom was housewife i had a one. order sister. and i remember born in that country i. never thought i was. in an unusual country now i'm thinking. of what it is like.

literally called the hermit kingdom but. i thought. i believed that i was living in the best. country on earth. it was a socialist paradise and. everybody. in the rest of the world worshipped my. idea leader. and there was nothing to envy for me. so i had this enormous pride in my heart. and grateful to be in that country so. was love for the leader not. fear for me at least it was love.

yeah it was all the moderation and. gratitude. it changed lately but for me was pure. pure like love was there any. like looking back with the perspective. you have now. would you describe some of those moments. growing up. as full of happiness or was that. delusion at the time so not knowing the. alternative. will you still be able to be happy the. fact that i did not know.

like in north korea this is the only. country in this 21st century has no. internet. and they don't even know the existence. of internet. not only that we don't even have this 20. like like. you know 24-hour electricity yeah so not. knowing. definitely helped i think to be sane. so as a human being you're still able to. find moments of happiness. i think my happiness was from family. nothing else even though those they was.

keep telling me that they were. our source of meaning and happiness i. don't think i ever got. happy by that maybe they're here and. they're in schools and like when i was. learning propaganda. like you know the proud feeling right i. mean the greatest nation. here and there but like actually true. happiness came from. laughing with my family and my friends. are there any childhood memories. pleasant or painful ones that stand out. do you know. i mean like you know whenever i think.

about my. north korea the interesting is there's. no color. i mean one is because north korean. country has no color right most of. things are unpaved. and trees all cut down we have no fear. so people cut down trees to make food. so but only that like even what we were. wearing was like no color. so it's um interesting like memory to. look back what about fashion i've.

noticed from. sort of uh you now you're you're. you have quite an incredible sense of. fashion so. contrast that with your time in north. korea how do you remember. fashion just or ways that people could. express themselves visually. was it all bland there was no word for. fashion in north korea. we didn't even know it was not even our. dictionary so of course i did not know. what victoria secret motors were i. didn't even know what motors were so. when i came out i learned.

more there was a job and like what is. that and i'm still confused. so there's so many jobs that we have. here doesn't exist in north korea. what was life like in north korea as. compared to the rest of the world so. maybe you said there's no internet. uh 24-hour electricity. is a luxury you do not have what about. food. what about water what about basic human. rights. i think that's the thing like when. people were asking me can you tell me.

about. like life in north korea and in the past. i was like. i cannot describe it to you and. initially i thought oh because of my. english that i cannot find the words. it's not that it's a different planet. the common sense that we have doesn't. exist there. like people literally do not know the. concept of. romantic love or human rights or liberty. so when i'm thinking back to my country. it's uh you know like as you cannot.

imagine your life on mars right now. it's like that kind of difference i grew. up never seen the map of the world. i never knew that i was asian like the. regime told. me that i was keemer's son the first. king race. and then our calendar doesn't begin when. jesus christ was born. our candor begins where hymns was born. so. we and history was forgotten to us they. didn't touch. us about of course christianity or like. the. big bang like our history began when kim.

was born. so everything was forgotten to us and. it was like different meaning i mean. feeling of existence. you know it's not even like the same. life i literally think. that was almost like my past life and. this is like a new life that i began. you're you're almost like a different. human being now absolutely. yeah so you've uh i have to say. i often say that my favorite book is. animal farm by george orwell.

i've read it i don't know how many times. and so i was really happy to. hear that that was uh of the many books. excellent books they. will hopefully talk about you've. mentioned that an animal farm had a big. impact on you. it was the book that kind of. uh led to uh a kind of awakening for you. maybe. can you describe what impact it had so. after going to what i went through right. and i arrived in south korea after many. years of journey.

they were saying so kim's were dictators. and south korea is not colonized by. american investors. and americans first of all not bastards. they're good people. and then they say everything that you. believed in north korea was a lie. it was a propaganda then at 15 i was. thinking. so if everything that i believe was a. lie how do i know what you're telling me. it's not like. that was so hard how do i trust ever. again. and i just it was chaos and belief right.

i did not know what was true anymore. and that's the moment few years later i. read this book. like animal farm just by mistake it was. a very short book in the library i was. like okay i can finish that quickly. and when they're ending that like last. chapter right they. could not see between the pigs and. humans anymore like that sentence. i just understood everything what. happened i just it made. every sense to me what happened to me my.

people. and to my country yeah that there's uh. there's so many things they could say. about that book yeah there's a haunting. nature. to the young and i guess spoiler alert. but you should have read this. already if you're listening to this um. at the end the animals were looking to. the humans. and to the pigs and they couldn't see. the difference and then there's this. kind of. gradual transition. from the initial revolutionary steps.

of animals fighting for their freedom to. slowly. uh the pigs gaining control went from. four legs good two legs bad two uh. four legs good two legs better. even better i think yeah like that they. were so like. gradually transitioning the ideology. under which the farm operates. and i think the gradual nature of that. where basically you have generations.

born not. knowing how things were in the past. and that's that's what makes the most. kind of for me. haunting transition from freedom. to slavery to suffering to injustice. all those things and the animals don't. know they're part of that. and also for me personally. i've always kind of found a kinship with. boxer the.

the horse because i just i'm kind of an. idiot i just work really hard. to work hard and i just love the idea of. working hard for an ideal. mm-hmm and the tragic nature of. to the end that horse boxer working his. ass off. for for the pride uh. for others uh but yeah for the pride of. the farm you know. uh and then the the the pigs.

giving him sort of using that but then. just sending him to the slaughterhouse. anyway. when he was no longer useful i mean. there's so many tragic elements that. echo everything i've seen in the soviet. union. and many of the elements that you see in. even. harsher more drastic way in north korea. if there's something hopeful you pull. from that book. like within the suffering within the. gradual decline. the taking away the freedom there were. still moments of beauty it seemed like. it can be but i think for me was.

when i was ending the last page of the. book. until that point i was angry towards a. dictator. why do you do this as a human being i. was so angry. dreaming of killing him revenging my. father the people that he cared but when. i was ending the last chapter. actually everybody was responsible to. create this dystopia in my country. that animals initial animals that when. they're scared. when they receive the first execution.

and then they were not doing their job. speaking out and keep questioning. like they had a question and then they. as soon as they feel fear. they silence yeah because of that like. that's when i was like. my grandma knew life could be different. i think the one thing about north. koreans are unique is that. they don't know they're oppressed they. don't know that they are slaves to the. dictator. and the fact that other people know. they're oppressed like in america a lot. of people think they are oppressed.

like you are not oppressed you don't. even know the definition of oppression. and like that's like when the new. animals came. the new animals didn't even know what. the life could be like. there's no alternative for them to. compare even. and i was like my grandmother knew why. didn't they not do anything about it and. they were just scared they kept. silent and everybody was responsible. so the people who knew were too afraid. to say. and then there's people that just didn't.

even know. and i don't know what's more terrifying. about. human nature looking at this group of. people who are. afraid to say that things could be. otherwise and then the group of people. that. don't even know it could be better no. it's uh i don't know that this is that's. the reason i've returned to that book. often because it's such maybe because. it's interesting using animals to. represent ideas that were very human. it almost allows you to explore the.

darkness of human nature. without sort of being uh broken by it so. you mentioned anger when i watch your. interviews. you're really calm and collected not. just your interviews. you know instagram the way you present. yourself you um. i don't know it seems like you're almost. at peace with the world. um is there in private times when you're. just angry.

do you feel fear do you go to dark. places depression. all those kinds of things are are you. able to put that world that you were in. behind you. it's a joke because i talk about north. korea every single day. and i still rescue people like from. china and russia and other countries. right and sometimes. our rescue mission fails and they get. capture and send back. i still have uh people in north korea. report to me. so like when i talk to my sister who.

chose to not. be in this life activist life she forgot. most of things. and like for the other hand i like. remember everything. so sometimes it's uh it's it's a. blessing to. keep reminded of how because it's you. know they say. happiness relative thing it is sometimes. i mean a good thing is also people say. because nobody was fooling. when you're growing up everybody was. suffering you should have been okay.

right but know like if you are suffering. that degree. no matter even if there's no comparison. like if you're in nazi german. in a holocaust right in the in the. concentration camp. i'm sure nobody was better than them i'm. sure they were. suffering is the same thing i suffered. but now because i'm. in this place i can compare easily right. getting that perspective. but it is true like i still have days. that i cannot get out of bed. and i'm really hoping like that where it.

was elam was talking about downloading. your brain blah blah. yeah like if maybe technology develops. that i can download some part of my. memory. and then i can erase it like when was i. deleted. and that would be so much better what i. this is uh. sorry for the tough question but if i. came to you if elon. came to you and said we can erase that. part of your memory. would you do it some days i would do it. for sure. and my mom would do a hundred percent my.

sister would do it. all other defectors know they do a. hundred percent. for me i hesitated because i'm a witness. so if i delete that part i don't know. how real that can be. but it is painful like after i talk. give a speech right i mean i'm fine but. somehow i'm depressed. sometimes if the talk was very intense. i'm like depressed for three weeks. it takes a while for me to be recharged. but i don't know why it is you know.

yeah i i just don't know yeah. well there's also the and uh there's a. guy named victor franco who wrote the. book. masters for meaning and there's some. aspect um. where so he talks about the holocaust. and you can in the in those moments of. suffering still discover meaning. still discover happiness in the simplest. of joys. like while starving you know a little. piece of bread could be a source of. incredible joy yeah and there's some. aspect.

in which that experience gives you a. clarity about the world. like somehow experiencing suffering. allows you to deep. deeply experience joy yeah and love. and also empathize with the suffering of. others and like it's almost like. brings you closer to other humans so. it's. this double-edged sword that um. that the highest of joys sometimes.

are catalyzed by suffering and it's hard. to know what to do with that you see. that with. world war ii the stories of soldiers. that have suffered but. some of the closest bonds. of brotherhood of just pure love was. experienced by them. and it's it sucks that our brains are. like this. you know the love requires hardship i. don't know why that is. yeah that's like that's thing of course. in my journey i learned. how to survive right when to not trust.

and when to run but i think. most of i was keep learning what it. means to be a human being. i think that was like ultimate thing i. was keep learning and. i still don't know fully what it means. but i do think it seems. like suffering is necessary for. people to be grateful and even be joyful. to sometimes. yeah so i talk about love quite a bit. and you mentioned that romantic love uh.

i'm fascinated about. love in many aspects but. you mentioned romantic love was. forbidden in north korea yeah. what do you think about love now that. you've. kind of discovered it what's the role of. love in life. why was it so why do you think it was. forbidden in north korea. so the tragic thing about north korea is. not only just banning shakespeare. like we don't even know what romeo and. juliet is right our movies is never.

about love stories. but then also they ban the love between. mother and daughter. wife and husband and you know. and you between your friends they deny. you being a human. so only love that i knew was when i. described my feeling towards the leader. and in the written form that was the. only love that people know in north. korea. and now i'm like there are many loves. you can experience. i mean i think you definitely love.

science right. but imagine that if you're being denied. that yeah. so there are so many loves in life but. in north korea. all of those things are denied and i. think. for me is love what makes you tick. like you know love for your child love. for your parents. love your friends love for even yourself. that is denied so i mean many people say. like love is an option but like then why. do you live. i think we live to love and it doesn't.

have to be romantic love it can be. anything. but finding love any in any person or. you know any subject i think that's a. goal i think that's when people find the. meaning in something. yeah i think a lot of romantic love is. just one sort of part of it. yeah one echo of the some core thing. yeah science i love science i love. robots all of those things and. it sounds like deliberately or not. the north korean regime wants to channel.

that very. deep aspect of the human spirit all. towards the leader. yeah that's it that's the only thing. they allow us to fear. and know about so i remember i mean you. read 1984 by georgia where. it talks about double think and double. speak. who controls the language who controls. thoughts. and why he does talk about as they go. they like eliminate a lot of words. right now like later one word can. represent 10 different things.

and like what fascinates me is like how. many. vocabulary meaning people can have and. like when i literally came out i. remember i went even to san francisco. and someone came to me and hugged me and. then he was a guy who's like. oh baby don't worry i'm gay i was like. what the heck is gay i don't know. right and then they try to go to hotel. room and google the gay. and i think oh that's what you meant and. like that like. they deny what that is i'm sure there.

are gays in north korea i'm sure there. is. but you don't know what it is and. like that they eliminate words so the. fact that you know the concept. that is a state is much better than and. that's the thing a lot of people like. when you're born you somehow know what. justice is. what liberty is and it's all somebody. taught you that. and like that's the thing why people is. like oh humans are. inherently know what is right what is. wrong what is oppression and like. no that's like bs you gotta learn that's.

fascinating that words. give rise to ideas so like. as a child one of the ways to learn. about justice and freedom. is to first learn the word and then to. ask well what is it. yeah the concept yeah and if you don't. have the word for it. then you never have the kind of first. spark. that leads to you trying to be curious. about it that's interesting and. controlling the words. and then yeah i mean your thoughts you.

control the thoughts. there's so many echoes i mean i have uh. it's it's a very different but perhaps a. very similar experience which is the. journey of my family. through the soviet union. because there is a love of country there. is a pride of the people. yeah like you are proud of your family. in general yeah. but um i wonder how much of that is. polluted. by the the propaganda i think a lot too. for sure yeah it is to this day i'm like.

my father who died in china and. he was tortured and then he died. he wanted to go back before his bath. right. and then it's like that if you go about. you're gonna be executed. and like i wanna be executed he wanted. to go back to north korea. to be executed so he can be buried in. his own land. and then his last wish was if i die. criminate me and then bring my ashes.

back to my country. when i'm dead i still want to be my. country. and this is nationalism this is a. propaganda right. and but now like it's the same thing. like. it's the same thing if i die i somehow. buried in my land. and i still feel like i'm the outsider. i'm always longing for my home it's a. horrible home. yeah like let people say what's your. dream like do you want to be a president. do you need to run for office like. i just want to go home that's my dream.

right. and people here don't get it ever yeah i. um. i don't know what to do with that i love. my country and i think for me my country. is. um the united states and perhaps it will. be for you too one day. it is i think it's becoming new years. has been a very special place in my. heart. i think this is the first place i felt. like i i feel like home. and i mean i was in south korea longer. and i didn't feel that way.

so so i think there were very different. life stories but i think. it's almost two different people the for. me it's the person that was in the. soviet union and the person that's. here those are two different people for. that previous person's home. in the soviet union and he's part of me. yeah. and i suppose in that same way you're. you know your first maybe two decades of. life. are somehow longing for the home that is. north korea. yeah and your next two decades of life.

might be finding a home in the united. states. yeah your your dad uh can you tell the. story. of um of his struggle. um uh of his death. i mean first do you miss him do you. think about it. all the time like i had a son when i was. 22. and i had ivf three times and. i know as you see i'm like 80 pounds but.

back now like 75 pounds. because of my master of your. malnutrition somehow my body is very. different. and so after three times of av. ivf after 23 i was still wanting family. and the reason i wanted him is. because i felt so guilty for my father. that he never seen this world. i somehow like when you're so desperate. you become illogical. like i want to believe in the recon like.

buddhist idea right you come back to. life. and i prayed please come to me like as. my son so i will take care of you like. come back. and when i was pregnant with my son even. though i planted pregnant with a girl. doctor made a mistake he became a boy. so i made his middle name like my. father's name since i think he's the. only. american got north korean name. [Laughter]. it is so he's so part of your father.

isn't your son. yeah that's how i that's. how i make the sense of it and that's. how i move forward. like if i like as a logical human being. you you know when you're dead you're. done maybe that's that's what i at least. used to think. but then life just become too unbearable. and somehow that's the thing like. we tell ourselves stories in order to. live and that's how i came within my. title of the book in order to live. i had to tell myself a lot of stories to.

overcome a lot of things. i think i was part of it. can you tell the story of um you. escaping north korea. to china yeah i think. it's it's a thing it's amazing. even though i was like 13 my like. life outside north korea is almost like. it went by like one second. and my life till that point was like.

eternity. i remember being in china i arrived. there at the end of march. at 13 and by october it was six months. passed. and i literally felt like i lived. eternity. and one day living in china. felt like living one year one day was a. war like. surviving through one day was so hard. every night i was like i cannot believe. i got done one day today.

that was the thing i was grateful for. before i went to bed. okay i survived i didn't get captured. and i made you another day on earth so. the experience. of the minutes is is what fear. fear of being captured fear. loss everything so. because i mean i sold my own mom in. china. to survive too.

so it was more than that and. it's not feeling i think that's the. thing in china. i learned not to fear and. after my escape was challenging i didn't. feel anything. and it was hard not feeling anything is. a torture it's a bigger torture you can. never feel like. even you fear sadness that's better than. not feeling anything. and i fear something when i had my son. that's when i started healing so he was.

a miracle. to save me but yeah in china it wasn't. even. fear like it was numb you were numb yeah. it was like paralysis. yeah just overwhelming. on the uncertainty of your future did. you have a sense what your future. held at the time like what do you even. even feature i don't even know that word. right. like a lot of times i was looking at. myself like i left my body and like just. looking at me. and just not feeling it it's not like.

i'm scared for her. i'm like sad for her just looking at me. like. oh that's interesting wow not feeling. anything. and me like being raped going through. every emotion of life to survive right. like. but like like somehow i don't know. you say so or something like looking at. it just like. you feel nothing you don't feel anything. for that person. so even with your mom like what was.

was there some. i don't know some warmth that you were. able to extract. from the connection with your mom yeah. of course i think that. made me survive i had a very strong. connection. with my family and i think that's what. kept me going. to do all of that i think as you said i. escaped at 13. my sister at the age of 16 escaped with. her friend. first and i was going to escape with her.

but. one day i got like really bad. stomachache and my parents took me to. hospital. and north korean hospital they don't. have like x-ray machines like they don't. even have electricity. they like literally using one needle to. inject everybody. yeah and people don't die from cancer. and north korea you die from infection. and fever and. hunger right it's most likely you're. gonna die more by being treated by. doctors and. not being treated i think i was lucky. even though they thought i had appendix.

they they operate on me without any. painkiller. and i didn't get infection i survived. so that's how i got delayed to escape to. my sister. and she left me a note in my bedside. saying like follow this lady. and this is like another trick about. human trafficking right. she sold me to china as a sexual slave. and she executed fully later and she had. she was executed for that later she had. five daughters.

and she sold all her children to china. and we can now sitting here judging on. like how heartless you are. selling your own children to china and. as a sexual slave they were like her. children were. 7 10 years old but that was the only way. for her to save her children. and if she didn't start me that day i. would be dead right. now so i'm grateful that she sold me. and i think that's the thing is life is. so crazy. you cannot judge it's just so complex.

and yeah that's how she changed my life. by selling me. she sold my mom and myself in 2007 to. china. so you're grateful for that you're. grateful for that suffering. of course i am grateful because the. alternative is worse. i would not be here with you you never. knew i existed. what do you make of the others suffering. in the world today. the people there in north korea.

so that is part of the your. of your life's work is helping those. people mm-hmm. what do you think about them what should. people know about them. i think that's when i get angry whenever. i think about them. like your anger directed at. at. the heartlessness of people the. ignorance of people. like so when i got on north korea.

going through all of them and i went to. south korea one day. i was watching television and just like. famous korean k-pop stars and crying and. doing some fundraising concerts and i. literally thought i was like oh my god. something is a horrible going wrong in. this country why are these people crying. it was cheery like campaign and then. later was. showing that it was the animal rights. campaign. to helping out cats and puppies in the.

shelters. yeah do you know anybody she has their. tears like that. to another human being right now like no. right people rather give a million. dollars to save some dolphins. than saving these children right now. being raped in china. and i think i love elon musk i read this. right i love these people want to like. go the moon. mars and like people told them like yeah. you went we went to the moon like i did. not know in north korea.

i think that's what upsets me okay why. there is not even one single human. with that kind of brilliance in their. brain. they they can't save so much suffering. that nobody does anything. i think that's when i i feel like hard. to find help in humanity. and that's when i get so upset because. think about like even biden or trump or. obama. they know what's happening in north. korea exactly right i mean if we see. satellite photos.

there's public executions i mean the u.n. says this is the holocaust happening. again. and is it happening if the holocaust. happening again how. why how are you okay doing nothing about. it. but somehow humans are able to okay not. doing anything. and this is like this is. hard like when people say i'm gonna. change the world i want to make a. difference like. it's hard to believe it you know. yeah that we can turn our back to human.

suffering at scale when it's right in. front of us i mean that makes you think. about the holocaust. this is just everybody was looking the. other way. yeah because it was almost too hard to. look at it. no it's not it's the easier thing like. it does the thing. i was like here to speak at the south by. southwest few years ago. and like they're everywhere talking. about like elon musk project going to. the moon right. we're gonna be multi spell like species. i was like. back then i did not even know who he was. so if you're guys.

trying to go after this earth you. haven't even explored our earth yet. you cannot go to north korea right now. you haven't explored that part of our. our like planet can we do that first and. then move on. explore the landscape of human suffering. like alleviate suffering in the world. there's. um there's a lot of suffering happening. in africa. that has to do with disease and for some. reason. it's even though we turn our back to. that kind of suffering too.

we still can try to do something about. it. and there's still efforts uh in terms of. uh health care in terms of medicine in. terms of bioengineering in terms of like. all these efforts to help people from. disease but like. that's almost like converting into an. engineering problem and trying to solve. it. that somehow is easier for us humans but. when there's obvious sort of. non-disease-related. torture of humans we look the other way.

yeah whether it's china or it's north. korea. yeah i mean that has to be changed. somehow. we'll have to change that somehow this. is the thing right now like. the china like they bring the xinjiang. vigors right dave. they say oh this vitamin take it and. then it kills their sperm. and make them not reproduce their birth. rate gone down something 47 to something. 50. in the one year time it's a genocide in. 21st century. and they get those people and get their.

like organs out. imagine if there's some people who do. that with cutie puppies and cats. there's gonna be insane amount of. product they're gonna destroy everything. and this is like a human nature that i. don't get. why there's so much anti-human sentiment. in this modern world like we don't have. to like. the the fact that i was saying like the. fact that you care about animals rights. it's beautiful because you care about. something who cannot speak for.

themselves. the fact that we care about animals is. because they cannot speak for themselves. right they don't have that. ability and there are many people who. cannot speak for themselves right now. and why do you refuse to be the voice. for them. because they're simply being a human and. maybe it connects to us. not being proud of who we are like maybe. i don't know what it is why do they deny. humans. this way maybe they don't like. themselves. yeah it's almost um we would have to.

acknowledge some dark things about. ourselves in order to start helping. what's the solution so you know i see. two solutions. one is in the military side. yeah it's uh assassination. or the full-on invasion. and then on the activism side. which is figuring out ways to um.

like like you said sort of let people in. north korea. understand their situation sort of from. within try to reform. or maybe there's others obviously there. could be activism. from the outside to build up momentum. for the entirety of the world. especially the world that it's not just. the united states or europe but also as. russia and china and so on. what what are your ideas here how we can.

what we can do as individuals and as. countries. i think the first thing that we can do. is speak about. chinese role in this sponsoring. dictatorship in north korea. like i haven't had so much struggle. talking about north korea right they say. how north korea is possible why is it. like the way like this is. 99 accountability going to. ccp kim jong-un cannot last. without chinese have even one week this.

is. completely funded this holocaust is. funded by ccp. but if you talk about in the mainstream. of course they don't buy it. and i think it's in a way north korea is. a lot easier to. serve than even in the middle east. there's nothing conflict like. between people there's no ideology no. religion nothing. people are peaceful right there's not. even one civil. any discontent among the people or. problem is there's a dictator funded by.

the second economic power in the world. and. even any military they know if they kill. kim jong-un they're gonna get killed by. chinese. nobody can dare to stand up against kim. jong because of china is backing it. so somehow here in the west we. collectively. acknowledging that china is the. responsible person. for these crimes against humanity in. north korea then we can somehow. i don't know china exactly we're. we're failing to do that in a way.

in all kinds of avenues of life of. public life. because uh for many reasons they're. probably primarily financial. but it also i'm against. i don't know maybe you can correct me. i'm against sort of. making china this evil enemy. because i've seen this with russia as. well and i don't think that leads to.

progress. i think you want to highlight like you. basically want to. help china the chinese people. become the best versions of themselves. so speak to the chinese people. and not fear not uh making the leaders. of china. the like into these caricatures of. devils. i i feel like the cold war the way it. was done in russia i just for. both sides they were caricaturing each. other through propaganda and the result.

was not productive at all. it did not help russia become the best. country it could be did not help america. become the best country it could be. and the same thing with china i feel. like making them into this enemy. like being afraid of china being. making them into the thing that's going. to spy on us that's going to destroy the. rest of the world. that's not going to help china like. reform themselves they're going to plant. their feet. the dictators the evil people will. become more evil. the power hungry will become more like.

they will centralize the power more it. feels like. um maybe naive but it feels like. it should be like again. love not violence that solves this thing. now of course in north korea it's like. long gone 80 years. almost 80 years old you can't love is. not going to solve that problem or. i mean i don't it's very difficult they. have tried that. because of the sunshine policy which is.

there's a two people walking down the. street and the sun and the wind made a. battle. so who can take off that man take off. jacket so wind. tried to blow as much air he could and. then that man was. like putting more like his jacket on. right not taking off but sunshine came. like okay i'm gonna give him a lot of. worms. and then he took his jacket out and came. out so that was the theory let's give. north korea as much love they want. let's give them a lot of money whatever. they want let's give to them. do they know that we are not here to.

attack them yeah and north korea what. they did with the guy who did the. sunshine policy in south korea named kim. daesung. won the nobel peace prize for that and. kim. kim jong-il used the money to build. nuclear weapons. so that's how they came with the nukes. so i think. that's the thing i hope your love serves. problems. but there's got to be a way and that's. the the hope is with the 21st century. you can directly speak to the people. somehow when there's no internet when. there's. nothing like that it's hopeless i think.

china there's a hope. that yeah the china is still connected. to the internet i love your optimism. i have seen the actual dark side of. china. on the underground i hope. i think that's the thing people here in. the west right they say oh how can it be. that bad. they ask me like i walking passing this. young teenager man in near the world. with my sister. he's like intestine coming out through. his bad way.

and even in that moment what he wanted. was. please give me food he was hungry his. intestine is hanging out of his body. yeah and he's. asking for food do you know what humans. demand when they die in north korea all. they want is eating. right yeah and people say oh nothing can. be that bad. but people just here haven't seen an. actual true evil would you say that the. evil comes from a tiny minority of.

people. or does it permeate much larger parts of. the population. like if we look at sex trafficking. how many people. like is it 99.9 of the people are s. are um. longing to do good in the world. or is there is it uh. or do we all have the capacity for evil. in certain kind of environment certain. kind of. uh governmental structures inspire a.

large. percent of the population to do bad. things. i think humans are capable of anything. there is no exception. i don't think there's any saying to born. with a morality. i think in north korea you can say. initially that there's few guys in the. top. wanting the power and then doing this. but. eventually made a society where people. don't even know what. compassion is we don't know the concept. of we don't know that you need to feel.

bad for another human being when they're. suffering. the fact that you know compassion is in. your knowledge that's why you do that. humans need to learn it's not anything. bad about human nature it's just saying. humans are capable of everything we are. the most adaptable species on the planet. that's why we. created the internet like talking this. way right. now other animals have done it because. we are so adaptable. that is a good thing and that's a bad. thing so in the adaptive situation.

they all can be i mean during the. holocaust right those people. they could have been capable of good too. if they were exposed to different system. yeah and that's why when people. underestimate evil. that's what scares me evil is evil. it's a different thing it's a completely. different thing. and of course i could really get your. idea we don't want to isolate 1.3. billion human beings in on earth by. chinese but the thing is we are talking. about this.

regime not the people i love chinese. people i speak chinese. i love like all about the country but. this system. does promote evil well that's an. optimistic view actually because. we can fix systems yeah it's harder to. fix people. so if we fix systems then the people are. adaptable absolutely as you said. i mean that and then the question is uh. first of all you have to. talk about it just as you're doing. you're right now like this little flame. that burns bright and it's really. important for north korea but just keep.

talking about it. until there's until hopefully. leads to at the highest levels of power. revolutionizing the systems in the world. and then. uh in china and in north korea do you. see. north korea being a potential instigator. of a nuclear war. they will not start any korean war as. long as they can do whatever they want. right now. right north korea's army not designed to.

fight the enemy. they designed to prevent their own. people the quteta and the revolution. with their own citizens. that is 1.6 million north korea. with a tiny country the fourth largest. armies in the world. so this this country designed to fight. with their own citizens. and the army the fourth largest in the. world. is designed to basically fight its own. people oppress their own people that's.

what north korean military is about. okay let me uh ask you some. aspects about north korean life can you. describe the seongbon. system of uh ascribed status used in. north korea. yeah so that's a very interesting thing. right right now there are a lot of. people playing with this ideology of. like. democratic socialism socialism communism. whatever you call marxism leninism right. they have all like these similar.

features where. we give collective power to a certain. entity. and they will make the decision for the. bigger good. right and north korea came up with the. idea. the kimir song he was the leninist he. was marxist. saying i'm gonna create the most equal. society on human face. so it was a communist north korea and. then. they came up with this tumbling system. it's a family caste system. three b categories warrior wavering and.

hostile. and then in between three classes they. divide into 50 different. classes so a lot of people don't even. know which exact class you belong to. that's a sacred golem document and. that's how they decide your future so in. no way north korea. before you're born your life is. determined for you. and this is normal joke right they. dreamed of creating the most equal. society. they ended up with became most inequal. society in the. face of humanity so there are 50.

different classes. and where the one guy on the top became. a god. so when this animal farm as we keep. saying like there's so many. all the animals are equal and someone. and more equal than others. exactly but but it's not only it's just. more equal. one guy in our school became a god. because north korea was born. out of uh marxist ideals yeah. from stalin can you comment on. uh juche ideology which seems to.

be its own kind of socialism. but uh with unique aspects here. it really does ideologically says the. importance of having a great leader. yeah is there some interesting. similarities or differences that you can. comment on. between other implementations of. communism throughout history. the soviet union china elsewhere. so tutor is very unique it came around.

the 90s after soviet union collapsed. so before that north korea was very. still loyal to the marxist and. melanianism. which is state takes care of you we are. going to give you the right education. health care your livelihood you. everybody's going to be equal. you're going to have in the working. collective form collective workplace. everybody collectively do things. together and let's work for the paradise. but 1991 the soviet union collapsed. and until then north korea was heavily.

subsidized by soviet union's aid. and then soviet didn't give them. anything so now three million people die. on the streets. the regime then came up with the idea. okay our goal. is what is successful ruling for us is. keeping the 10 percent. of population alive which is in the. capital pyongyang. so they design the hunger games there is. a capital. 13 other districts everybody on the. countryside on purpose being starved. so those people who are starving cannot.

thinking about meaning of. life cannot thinking about shooting to. the moon right they're not gonna think. about anything or they're gonna think. it's like finding next meal. all on purpose is man-made famine. international community was begging to. give north korea food. why not stood at the u.n they begged to. give north korea formula. medicine and food they are begging can. you please feed your people and kimchon. said no thank you. last year like we knows had a horrible.

horror flooding south korean prisons are. begging. can you get can i give you please some. medicines like no. because he wants to be the one provider. he doesn't want people to think other. people giving him the thing. so on purpose other people are starving. and the truth. idea is that's when you're coming from. so until that communism was about like. steady speaking being a. father figure takes care of all your. needs right give the power to us. and you are all good but north korea. regime says okay. now we cannot give people's rations so. which means.

means self-reliance you need to take. care of yourself. while you're giving every right to us so. now. in 1990s the regime told us okay. we are not going to give you russian you. cannot trade. that's illegal but you find your own way. to survive. so be self-reliant that's what to say. and you know but when you're a god you. can do whatever you want you don't need. to make a sense. that's the difference being a god and. being a leader. even it is religion it's not falsifiable.

you cannot challenge it. god's way is suspicious god works in the. mysterious way. so when you're god people are not gonna. say oh this doesn't make sense right. you're gonna okay whatever god says. we as a human being we can never change. these thoughts. it is unbelievable what regimes can do. the there's something about. famine you know. that um is another.

is another level of evil to me. you know what stalin did in ukraine in. the 30s. yeah fuck him. yeah this is what torture is. cannibalism yeah and um. north korea too they humans right now. in 21st century seven billion people on. this earth right now. you make the enough food for 10 billion.

people. nobody should be starving right now it's. worrisome to me the humanity is moving. forward with the technological advances. blah blah we are going so. fast in in advancement and we are living. this like 25. million human beings in the cage. completely leaving them behind. and north korea is living like 16. centuries i never. like this morning i was taking a shower. beautiful shower. like one never knew what shower was i.

was bathing few few times a year going. to the like. river how do i even know what shampoo is. and this is. how human beings in 20 persons living. and it doesn't bother us and rather. most people obsess being a vegan and. like. how how do you reconcile this. i think we get used to stuff very. quickly we get used to comforts that's. just the way of human life you. you take the beautiful things for. granted. so i try to appreciate everything i have. so whether it's.

uh like the food i have now or like the. luxury to have a diet and. to be struggling with that yeah or just. the basic simple moments of being alive. with the people i love. or actually i get like i think i'm on. drugs all the time because. i feel like just even like uh this mug. everything on this table. just brings me joy but it's. like filling your life with joy in the. full. capitalistic american way you can still. at the same time. uh not feel too bad about yourself no.

and still. focus on the the suffering in the world. and i think. there's some way. that in trying to build a better world. in america it has ripple effects. elsewhere sort of like so i'm a fan of. rockets in space it sounds perhaps. counter-intuitive but sending raucous to. space. will help solve the north korea.

a problem because it lets. people dream yeah and build. cool stuff so it's not the rocket it's. the other people. that like are inspired by the rocket and. then look to. other problems in the world i mean. that's what elon did is like he saw. problems in the world and saw like what. can i do to help it. and i think the north korea one is a. tough one though. because that's ultimately has to do. with revolutionizing government.

china china that's what it takes. changing chinese communist party is. impossible. that's why we couldn't solve north korea. for that many decades but. it's china well for now it's china but. it's china. it's um so it's uh. russia it's certain aspects of the. united states and struggling with that. uh one of the you know there's a bunch. of technologies that are striving at. this. um for example uh i don't know what your.

thoughts about cryptocurrencies. i love it so like there's a idea that. money could be a way to destroy or to. challenge the power centers of the world. yeah. so if you give if you take away the. power from fiat currency and give it to. this thing that can't be controlled by. government that's cryptocurrency whether. it's bitcoin ethereum all those kinds of. things. that's a way to get money into the hands. of people. to where the government can't take that. money away.

but north koreans don't have electricity. no internet. so yeah we can do that with china we can. do it a lot of african dictatorship. countries. right i do think big cryptocurrency is. such a fascinating technology. right i think this is an amazing. experiment i mean. that power is in our hands i'm the huge. advocate believer. but i think nurses too behind yeah you. know i think that's what is unique about. north korea is that. most of things that we talk about is now.

it's different planet literally. the common law that we have is now. applicable. what about kim jong-un kim jong-un yeah. is he intentionally evil or is he. mindless mindlessly propagating an evil. system created by his. ancestors what's your sense of the man. so with the keemer's song i can give him. more than i feel that. he was a initial true believer of. communism.

but then as later he gained the power he. realizing. i think i guess back then he thought. most of people are dumb my individuals. don't. so therefore i need to make a decision. for all of you. that pure arrogance came from out of him. even that i can tolerate okay. fine and kim jong-il who never like yeah. fine he grew up in that system too but. kim jong-un is very unique. this guy was educated in switzerland.

in the heart of democracy he knew how. human beings. should be treated as a child event. when you're a child your brain is very. susceptible. right you change anybody like why the. mall was so pleasant. changing young people's minds like. that's every revolutionary they do right. they go. change young people's minds first this. guy was so obsessed with the power. him being a god even starting in. switzerland. didn't change him and that's why i think.

that's a pure evil. you know i can't give him more benefit. or thought to his grandfather and father. but when it comes to kim jong-un this is. like what pure evil looks like. pure selfish being yeah that's what it. looks like. is there is there some sense where he's. justifying. everything he's doing to himself or do. you think there's a psychopathic. aspect to where he enjoys the suffering. i think in his life right i read a lot.

about like north korea a lot of cia. documents a lot of intelligence people. work there. and even like worked in north korean. type elites and escaped i. could hear about them so kim jong-un. when they're born they treat like gods. so they never have a sense of them being. a human. they're like equal with others for them. like if you're just any kind of. tool like that what napoleon like thing. does right. anybody's a tool like once boxer dies.

you get him slaughtered for my cause. and they do not even feel guilty about. it because they don't view us that you. deserve you are worthy of it. yeah that's right so it's not like he. even fears he doesn't even recognize the. suffering. like of course you you this this is what. you do serving me. because i am i am this so i think that's. like. beyond that like he's not like suffering. his enters his minds. he doesn't even think what we go through. you see he thinks is himself. as a as a god yeah and then everybody.

else is just uh. tools that are disposable right there. was rumors. several times of him dying yeah do you. think he is. um obviously his health. is not good do you think he will die. soon what happens if. kim jong-un dies. well when it comes to north korea. anybody knows what they're going. what kim jong-un does it's lie right. nobody knows i'm sure cia knows but they. may never reveal that.

cia has enough intelligence to can tell. where kim jong-un is what he's doing. they just don't assassinate him because. they don't see the. needs of it right now because do you. think they can assassinate him they. can't they do have ability abilities. why the hell do they not assassinate. them because they don't care they don't. care about the suffering of 25 million. people. they gotta pay the price if they sell. assassin kim jong-un. they gotta pay the price there will be. financial there'll be political price to. pay. it will anger china absolutely that is a.

huge piece for them and then they'll. have to deal. obviously there'll be financial military. consequences of having to deal with. the turmoil the uncertainty yeah the. revolutions that will spring up. yeah that's the thing like that's why. they don't want to take that risk they. don't want to do anything. the u.s now became very passive when. they pursue these mortal values to the. rest of the world. they did the same thing with the. holocaust in the early days actually. yeah they were like just they didn't. care. and that's what they're always policy. has been they don't care i mean.

so if kim jong-un dies it's gonna be. very hard for north korea to replace. anybody in his position because kim's is. a brand. it's not just like a leader for us right. whenever we think of kim. who came with my mind like who's like. almost god figure. like north korea is the number 10. religions in the world. they copy the bible so if you believe. that. if there are people believing that god. and jesus christ.

how do you not believe that north korea. believes in the same thing so kim. il-sung's grandfather and his parents. were. devout christians so kim your son was. grew up just like christian like word. verses. so when he finding his country he said. i love my people so much that i'm giving. you my son kim jong-il. his body dies but he spirits with us. forever. who can know how many hair i have what i. think and when we suffer. we go to paradise with him and when you.

block every single information going. into country of course people are gonna. believe it. so who would be the successor if he dies. he has a son. a first son born 2009 and not. not old enough if he dies now so. either his sister might rule for of. short amount time as not like a leader. but like replay like. temporary placement and then when the. sun. is old enough he might take it off. because it's a kingdom.

that's most likely and china will do. everything they can. to maintain that status call for the. north korean regime. so north korean people have no option. here. we just need some leader to courageously. come up and do the right thing. so we can't just wait this out no we. can't it's not something that takes. its course and not gonna change like we. not even know that. economic freedom does not bring. political freedom we know in china.

it doesn't that's that's unique thing. about freedom. you gotta fight for it otherwise you. don't never get it. freedom is something has to be fought. and if nobody fighting for freedom it's. not gonna be there. can we talk a little bit about freedom. what what does it mean to you. having had we talked about love in. that same way about freedom having sort. of. discovered it later in life what does it. mean to you. i think every day i i get a new.

definition of freedom. it is it's a never-ending journey. having this relationship with being free. and what it means to be. free right i think. i think uh you definitely can live life. without being free. and also happy life too i saw a lot of. nursing. elites who were were fed and have power. but didn't have freedom were. very happy in a way happier than the. people that i found in yeo were like.

investment bankers and consultants in. manhattan. and seventy percent of them called like. talk therapists. i was very confused i remember writing. my book in new york. like my editor was saying yeah me you. know like you're traumatized. you need to go talk to therapists and. it's like what is therapy right. what is trauma because in north korea. they don't have word for stress or. trauma because. how can you be stressed in the surgery. is paradise so they don't let you be.

knowing what that is yes so and then. they were like. yeah hearing people having problems go. talk to therapists. and i was like like how much is it. actually like 200. per hour and it's discounted rate too. it's like no thank you. [Laughter]. you know i was like you know and we know. that. freedom comes with responsibility. and in a way it's not that easy to be. free. thinking for yourself constantly like.

when you. in a way i understand like let's give. government every power we have. let them decide what education that i. get let them decide where i live like. you know. let someone figure that out for me and. that's how north korea began. hoping the government gonna represent my. own interest. believing that they were good and with. that. benefit of thought and good faith you. began the nightmare right. yeah so freedom is not like a gay way to. be happy at all. in a way you can make life a lot more.

complex but then it's fun. isn't it you start being for yourself. you start making mistakes. and it's so fun to be free even though. you can be suffering way more. than the people who are not free the. thing about freedom is. when you have freedom you also have the. responsibility for your actions. and that could be a huge burden yeah. because. um if you succeed it's you. but if you fail it's you yeah and.

uh if you do horrible things it's you if. you don't do something. for example if you don't help people in. north korea it's you. yeah and that's a huge burden yeah. and living with that burden is a kind of. suffering. i mean there's some aspect in which. freedom is suffering it is suffering. because life is suffering and then. freedom is uh. you as an individual fully living. through that. so you talked you're friends with. michael malus.

he believes and so i want to kind of ask. you about government. he believes he's an anarchist and he. believes kind of in. freedom fully implemented in. in human societies meaning that humans. should. all be free to choose how they. um you know transact with each other how. they live together. there shouldn't be a centralized force. that tells you what to do.

do you think there's some role for. government. in um in a healthy society yeah so. you if we look at north korea there's. the most horrible implementation. of government but then if we. look at what the united states strives. to be at least. in principle there's uh there's an. ideal of a government that represents. the people and helps the people like is. there is there a place for that kind of. ideal. or is government always going to get us. into trouble i.

am not i mean i spoke to michael males i. kept asking. why he's anarchist right and he doesn't. believe in military none of that. and it's i was like i was like i don't. think i want to be in that world. you're describing me that's pretty scary. i want the law enforcement. i want like i don't. in a way that so why equality makes no. sense is that. the fact that when you and i were born. we were born in a very different. capability of thinking.

different intelligence different. capability in our physics right. so equality is nonsense you can never. achieve that. right so to me that's when it's very. scary. when the government tries to interforce. equality on everybody that is. impossible that's specifically equality. of outcomes so like. so given that we all started different. places enforce. like measure in some kind of way where. people stand and if they're on equal in. force equality.

yeah and that's what leads to the kind. of things that you mentioned with the. class system. right in north korea yeah so i think. that's why. government can be bad they can be very. dumb and. another another thing is that they. cannot know what you want a lot of times. people don't even know what they want. any individual. like how the heck do you assume. government gonna know what is best for. you. nobody knows we just all do our best. i do think that some governments against. switzerland.

you know have more give power to the. different state. can be good i think i'm more you know. like giving power to the state. and let individuals decide where they. want to go in within states or. i mean why did you choose taxes right. there's no. income tax right like there's a lot of. things people find texas. like you know charming and they come. here so in a way that. i don't want to be in a one strong. garment it makes. every single thing the same way in a way.

i want to kind of experiment. everything you can have anarchy state. there's no police nothing going on you. can be. whatever one you want and you can go on. a stable it's like. abortion is bad blah blah this is bad. all these. conservative values and let the ideas. compete. and let them how they are being tracked. in real real life. but i think it's very scary when the. youth government is getting bigger and. bigger and then they try. to you know make every state under one.

big government. and that's like when i get really. alarmed are there things that you see in. the united states. in the current culture that kind of has. echoes of the same things you saw in. north korea. that that worry you that much. absolutely it's it's uh. it's in america now the meritocracy. doesn't matter right it's evil. the white man's idea of like talking. about if you're.

competent enough they said oh if you're. coming from which white family. you are going to be competent so other. people don't have a chance but. look at asians who came from nothing is. competent and go to like harvard law. school and medical school. so it doesn't almost it's like there's. no incentive for you to work hard. anymore in the system right now that is. north korea there's no incentive because. you're born. with your class already so no matter. what you do you can never so. the horrible thing about north korean. system is that there is nothing even.

holding mary up so if you're coming from. other cultures. that like mega marco join the royal. family and she became a lawyer you go. up by north korea if someone from high. class is going to marry somebody down. you only go down with them that's how. they prevent. classmates right they that kind of. enforces the separation because there's. huge disincentives to go uh to marry to. to. integrate between classes yeah.

what do you do about this kind of um you. know. especially in universities but in. companies i'm. thinking about starting a company so i'm. looking at this very carefully. there's these ideas of diversity. and and meritocracy that's a tension so. yeah i think there's. there's a big way in which diversity. broadly defined. is not at all in in tension with. meritocracy so having a variety of.

people. backgrounds way of thinking all those. kinds of things is a huge benefit to any. group but the way diversity is often. defined. is by sort of very crude classes. of people whether it's by skin color or. gender. or or or some very kind of large group. way. and that that actually does two things. in my mind one it drowns out real. diversity. or not real but the full spectrum of.

diversity. which is like within class diversity of. like. um are you are you somebody. who is um. are you somebody who's exceptionally. good at mathematics are you somebody. who's exceptionally good at psychology. are you good with people. are you good with numbers all that kind. of stuff that i think spans. or intersects in fascinating ways with. these kinds of groups. so that's diversity and then meritocracy. is this. thing that probably the reason i wanted.

to move to silicon valley and the reason. i didn't is like. having a fire to change the world within. you like. meritocracy is like i want to be the. best in the world. at this and i will strive and work hard. not stepping on others but like. in purely within yourself be the best. version of yourself. that that idea is. um in some ways being. not celebrated or demonized.

is it literally meritocracy is being. demonized right now in america. working hard is a symbol of you. coming from some established family yeah. the fact that you celebrate. accomplishment hard work is a sign of. your. patriarchy whatever thing they call. right and. they want to abolish that they they want. to like stop. giving kids grace that's what they're. already doing right they. want to stop they want like we should. abolish like s 18 in america they take.

to go to college right. they won't even abolish this because. yeah some keep kids have no ability to. do math so why do we have to force them. to learn math and that's what comes with. humans overcome challenges yeah that's. what makes us special. but then like because these kids coming. from this family let's find a reason why. they cannot. and then they don't have to do that. thing but they still deserve the same. job they need to be a lawyer. and doctors yeah and that's like what. in north korea was like not there was.

not even meritocracy to begin with right. you. these people in the same family the. family the blood right. like if one person does something wrong. it's like collective guilt because i. spoke out. three generations of my family got. punished who are left behind. and then in america i see the same thing. like if you're. somehow great great grandfather on the. slave. now you are privileged and you're guilty. because you are white and geared then. but how do you change your ancestor.

how did you have a saying on it and that. is where there's no way out there's no. forgiving there's moving forward. and this current culture in america now. like i remember. at columbia like before class everybody. have to go around of saying. tell us what your pronoun is and. my english might third language i. learned as an adult. even saying he and she i'm confused by. this is a pure mistake. and they say call me day because i'm.

gender fluid basically i can be a girl. but next hour you talk to me i'm a boy. right yeah. and if you don't do it right they like. look at you why are you big at. right it makes me so nervous and this is. where i come to. this is a regression of civilization. we are regressing as a humanity here. like the enlightenment all of those. things made us so much. brighter and looking forward and now we. are going backwards. well i think it's there's a pendulum.

aspect to it because it's my it's my. hope in terms of backwards so. pendulum goes backwards too but it just. goes back and forth i think. and then uh in the long arc of history. we're making progress. i think all of the discussions of. diversity and. inclusion and all those kinds of things. i always thought that they're healthy. in a in moderation right they should be. a small part of the conversation amongst. other things the the natural asp. like it seems that they kind of have.

this way of just consuming all. conversations. it's like the meetings like diversity. and inclusion meetings multiply somehow. where it's like the only thing that. you're talking about it's very kind of. absurd and when i look at uh. even at mit it's it's it's a strangely. disproportionate. amount of discussions about that and. also to me as an engineer those. discussions are very frustrating because. they don't seem to actually. do anything no so like they want. to uh bully people yeah.

instead of creating systems that fix. define. like definitive problems and. that in itself that kind of bullying. that's the same kind of. thing you saw in terms of mccarthyism in. america. against the communists you certainly saw. that in soviet union. against everybody who's not communist. it's uh it creates. hate not progress when you talk to. jordan peterson recently and. people should listen to that. conversation it was a fascinating one.

i think um he. he almost got emotional on the. discussion about. universities and your experience with. colombia. because he like myself for perhaps. different reasons have a hope. for our academic institutions some of. the most incredible people some of. the most incredible engineering and idea. development innovations happens in. universities and so. we both deeply care about them um.

is there something so the reason he got. emotional the reason he was kind of hurt. is. the the the fact that you did not you. were not. deeply inspired by your experience. deeply. it made me dumber it made me scared it. made me terrified. that i had to censor myself in america. like. like are you seriously telling me that. you don't ever censor yourself and when. you talk.

do you can you truly say whatever you. want about race. of anything gender we all censor. ourselves let's be honest right we. are all doing that and that's what i. learned like. i thought i was coming to country where. i never needed it like first thing my. mom taught me. growing up in north korea was don't even. whisper. because the birds and mice could hear. you. and i thought okay now america is a. truly the land of the free home of the.

brave. you can say anything you want and then. you have. freedom to change your mind and evolve. right. but the people now demand you to be the. perfect version they demand you to be. you cannot change your mind and then. what is the meaning of life you cannot. grow. right you should be feel safe to talk. about anything and then later okay. i was wrong but now if you do that you. gotta like get penalized for it. i mean censorship is a funny thing. because you probably should not say dumb. things. you should try to say things you want to.

say in the most eloquent the most. effective way you can so i mean that's. what editing is. right yeah so there's some level of like. being careful with what you say not. because you're afraid. of some overarching kind of group. of bullies but you want to be the best. version of yourself when you express. stuff. but there's some sense where in the. university setting. you can put that self-censorship like. level down more. and say stupid stuff right and explain.

and play. because you should be forgiven for that. kind of uh play. especially when you're discussing. difficult aspects of human history. whether. that include racism that that include uh. atrocities. i'm still nevertheless sort of hopeful. but at the same. time i'm i'm surrounded by engineers. yeah so i don't get to interact with. people in humanities much. and it seems like there's a good thing. it's a good thing i i.

yeah i don't know um well i do sort of. interact with psychologists but they. haven't touched on those kinds of topics. yet i. i still sort of in defense of psychology. i still i wish he had more numbers yeah. uh but i still feel like most psychology. people. don't partake in this kind of stuff. either they're just doing excellent. research. we're just highlighting this what. america does well. you're kind of highlighting anecdotal. experiences.

and uh making a big deal out of them. but that's good because like it's a. slippery slope if those. if those things start to overtake all of. academia it starts becoming a big. problem even in the engineering field so. we should be concerned but it is truly. tragic that somebody who's. exceptionally well read like you whose. fire was stoked first with orwell. that fire should burn bright like this. should not be. you should be writing many books you.

know what i mean like and. you'll be you talk to jordan you know. it's very possible. depending what you want to do with your. life that you'll be a future jordan. peterson. right so like that and colombia. should be a place that enriches. that your mind and the fact that it. didn't is. is tragic it's like i was there four. years. it wasn't like i had one class that was. bad in a one semester. yeah that was the thing i mean dr peter.

was asking is there any one class. that had no sentiment of this this. virtue signatory and politically right. yeah there was none yeah. entire course i think i took 126. credits total yeah not even one class. doesn't matter we were talking about. classic art and that's the thing. i literally thought okay i pushed it. last like the semester the call like the. art and music right. so i thought this is going to be the. least politically correct class i can.

take. and then it begins with who has problem. with. calling this course the western. civilization muse of art and music. and everyone's raising their hands. because like why do you have to learning. about this better than mozart the bigots. and all the people like you know. everything ruined by white men. yeah and it's even music even these. paintings. and as i i didn't raise my hand. everyone's looking at me. how do you not have a problem with us. like you used to hate us you're asian.

you're so i think that's the thing is i. think the. problems way deeper than what people. think and it's. it's so that's what i when i learned. it's like. it's not that safe in america we can go. complete to the south. and looking at even europe that is like. i used to be way more optimistic like. you know that but now. i actually see wow this country can go. to south. and we might if u.s force land right.

this is the only country. left to battle with the common spot in. china. we may lose the opportunity to be free. ever again as a humanity. wow so i mean that puts a lot of value. on having these kinds of conversations. it is i mean i'm troubled i'm troubled. by a lot of things but like censorship. on youtube for example. yeah it was very annoying to have to. listen to donald trump all the time. like just like create drama like the. news cycle was completely drowned out by.

donald trump. but like banning him from twitter it was. like. that i that was that was scary for me. because. it's like that's a step towards the. direction where. you're going to like where's that take. us you're going to silence. people then it's like jordan peterson is. next that's why we need to promote. freedom of thinking. and speech right and one thing that i. love about dr peterson is.

humans he's psychologists right he talks. about we. we we think by talking yeah. that's why when you go to therapy you. talk and then you hear yourself and then. you think and you come up to the. answer it's so important for humans to. talk. so we can think so when they say you. cannot talk means you cannot think. and they don't know the consequences of. that and this is why. i promote i want the freedom of speech.

even though it hurts. ridiculous you know sometimes it can. it can be dangerous but the price the. alternative is so bad. that we should take the you know make. this trade-off everything has a. trade-off in this world. and it comes with a sacrifice right so i. think that's uh. that's what i want to see in america but. it's unfortunately like. the people like you say who decides what. is hate speech what is dangerous. that's what what i've been getting. scared because.

everybody's imperfect yeah how do you. want to give the power to them and. they're going to decide. today they might agree with me say okay. your speech is good. promo is good and then they might come. back next year so you're probably. bad what are you gonna do when that. happens to you. we have to almost like get ideas out and. then play with them. i think what's a really important. component of that is forgiving each. other for. like realizing the word different person. day by day and certainly years later.

and i think some of that is both. cultural mechanisms of saying like we. forgive. each other for wrong ideas or not wrong. ideas but. for who we are the the full evolution of. the human being. for the steps we've taken on that. evolution and. also creating mechanisms that. allow you to um allow. us to forgive each other like for. example on a twitter is like horrible. with this because. one of the main viral ways that people.

create drama on twitter is like. pulling up an old tweet that somebody. said right. and then saying oh this is the guy that. thinks that yeah. and but that's like the opposite of the. mechanisms we need. to forgive ourselves forgive each other. for the things we've said in the past. um so part of that is the cultural part. of this is as. is the um the technological um. mechanisms you mentioned uh jordan. jordan peterson you had a great.

conversation with him. what uh what was chatting with him like. i'm just i'm just curious because he's. deeply passionate especially on the. soviet union side. about the atrocities of these kinds of. systems what was it like. what did you um what did you agree with. him on. what did you disagree what were some. things you both kind of learned from. each other through that conversation do. you think. so here so my story the jordan period is. not a. very long one so one day i was walking.

down in chicago. and they were like a huge theater or. sold out. he said big letter jordan peterson saw. that yeah. and then it was a huge theory in the. middle of chicago right like. doesn't like comedian like who can be. selling this entire thing out. at like 7 00 p.m and then with. my like ex-husband we were walking the. street. and then we saw people were like selling. those like tickets. like and for a very higher price right.

and then you want to take it and then he. was like yeah sure. and we went in it's packed. and then i was just. give birth or like but i wasn't able to. understand his english that much my. english was served. and he didn't know who he was really no. no you were just curious. yeah he was like 2 000. he's the guy. that sells out of. a theater yeah yes i i saw dave rubin. came up before him and make jokes i. still. don't know who dave rubin is afterwards. i met them all but back then i had no.

clue what that is. and then he was giving lessons but what. i got from that night was not. what jordan said but what people did on. the audience. these people like i don't know thousands. of people in this big theater. crying like babies and that's what i was. like. whatever that guy is doing is very. special right he was like making any. jokes he had no slides just. one simple person standing in the huge. dragon theater talk.

and long time too and people cry. i was like wow okay mate whatever that. is i gotta check it out. and then i got home and then later many. years later i got a book. and i was start reading his book and it. talks about it explains so much right. like now. at columbia learn like everything gender. is like made of concept. construct like the higher kills my men's. idea make the hierarchy. and he begins with the number one the. the lobsters.

had the hierarchies evolution of history. that is within. us that we want a higher key rate and. then. chapter five about socialization of. child. you know how do you raise them and all. of it and then. what's why telling the truth is matters. right. and there's a white like in it's. entire twelve lessons i read it and i. was like i'm. i was so grateful that i'm alive with. this like there's people always say. if socrates is alive how much would you.

pay to have lunch with him. that kind of thing right so for me was. like okay. i'm like alive in the same contemporary. world one of the greatest singers of. my entire generation and then like. how much money you hang out with exactly. right how much money would i pay right. no no limit amount yeah and. i like reached out to michaela on her. pockets on twitter and connected and. then one day she'll say. do you wanna go my father's podcast i. was like. what i was like of course and.

i was very nervous but i didn't expect. him to be. like that connected yeah because. i thought he was psychologists like he. saw so much suffering in the world he. started solving. his hobbies collecting those things to. remind him of the suffering of a human. being. so sometimes some people hear so much. atrocity they become like. very you know not engaged desensitized.

he felt. he was feeling he was it's almost like. he was living through the experiences. with you as you were talking about it it. was an amazing conversation. so jordan is one of the great thinkers. of our time but i would say the greatest. thinkers of our time is michael malus. you've also got to just talk to uh. well so he wrote a book on north korea. yeah. it's an interesting style book i learned. a lot from it. i learned a lot from michael about it. and it's interesting that he chose. north korea as a as a thing to study.

that he of all people this fascinating. human being that is michael. chose this darkest of aspects of. of uh humanity to study what uh. what do you think of michael what do you. think of his book on north korea called. dear reader that people should. definitely check out. absolutely so back then when i reached. michael through mutual friends south. korea i my english. wasn't good so i got a copy in my hand.

i tried to read and a lot of them i. didn't understand. so but i thought it was very fascinating. how he. explained north korea through the deal. leaders perspective. right as nobody has ever done that and. you can reverse so much about the. state and the absurdity of entire. situation. and also through humor and that's what's. amazing about my chris is. he knows the full gravity of tragedy. he knows the first offering he's not.

just like people here in america. on the bus feed making fun of kim jones. haircut they don't care what people go. through. michael cares deeply cares and then he. still does ridiculous jokes. so that that kind of reveals in a dark. way the absurdity. yeah of evil yeah he does that. masterfully do you. he's a genius he is definitely all right. let's. let's if he watches this uh.

you know let's not get make his head too. big here. but is there some aspect to. i mean there is an absurdity to the. whole thing yeah uh. kim jong-un is this i mean he's almost. like a caricature of evil. like joke it's a joke a lot of people. think it's a joke. they just think like this is too too. absurd that is a they laugh. like can you imagine you laugh at. holocaust this is that. ridiculous can you maybe psychoanalyze.

that a little bit. because that that's where my mind goes. too. like he's so ridiculous. that you can't it's almost like hard to. believe this is real. yeah is that just is that just my kind. of and people's desire to escape the. cruelty. of reality by just kind of making a joke. out of it. i think it is a few things right like. um to north korea as a nation.

uh number one or number two smartest iq. people in the world. despite their magnitude so. so so there is i mean that that was. that's an interesting point so. in your sense the people are not dumb. still carry the the the brilliance. there's a there's a culture there. that's like hungry to become realized. like the people that that were like that.

that are silenced by the electricity by. the. actually having no food all those kinds. of things like if you add the. electricity if you add the food you're. going to have a cultural center of the. world. like south korea that's what they. exactly did right the exact same career. one became one like 11th largest economy. one became the world's most like polish. nation right. and this is a perfect example like if i. don't know if you read that book. why nation affairs the system.

it's not about the culture it's not. about people it's not about iq. what makes us too different is a system. south korea is north korea is a perfect. example of that. one is exact same capability we were. homogeneous. like country same language tradition all. of that. we gave them different system one is. free democracy one dictatorship. and came up with the biggest different. results. and i think north korea reveres that to. us. it's not because we are great that we.

are living in this prosperity. free market the ideas gave us to this. the system we built our ancestors spirit. gave us this privilege it's not us. nothing is about us being special here. right the system that we have is quite. special. and north korea proves that to us it. doesn't matter even if you're smart. it that's all irrelevant and i think. that's why. people just keep denying that they want.

to feel special like because. i'm awesome i got all of this like no. it's not you you got this. and when people say like i hate. capitalism it's like. without capitalism how do you came up. with this thing. literally how did you come up with this. the. systems matter and they matter. like um way more than. this individualistic society would like. to imagine.

it is the most important thing you can. have in life choosing the right system. do you have a device for young people. today. you've lived an incredible life and you. have. i hope an incredible life ahead of you. what advice would you give to young. people today high schoolers. college students how to um. be successful in their career maybe. successful in life.

last thing i want them to fear is guilty. it's it doesn't do anything right. so i hate when people talk about white. gears. it's like that doesn't make even any. sense right. i think the fact that they born with. freedom. is a blessing for all of us. it's not like i want them to want to do. something because they are guilty. i want them to do something because they. are grateful. it is true like we are sitting here the.

fact why i have children is suffering. having kids you don't sleep costly like. so much. work like any like logical rational mind. you should never want children right. like why would you do that to yourself. especially as a woman right yeah you. don't want to do that to yourself. but think think about like we are. sitting here today. two of us in this amazing technology. this country. because somebody in savannah hundreds. thousands of years ago.

they're hunting berries and surviving. cold. every suffering they can imagine they. fall for us. that's how we ended up here so life. is ultimately bigger than us. and i think that's what i want them it's. not like i want them to do the right. thing and be the best. person of themselves it's like i want. them to feel grateful. and we should be very grateful for the. freedom and then take full and. advantage of that i mean it starts with. the freedom to experience.

everything in life and for your life. literally like. how my father like. you know working dying is a lot easier. than living. that takes like few minutes right. maximum. and living takes forever so when i was. facing this. unbelievable challenge i thought okay. this most rational thing i can do is. killing myself right now. but the hardest thing i can choose is. choose to live. and my father did that even in the.

consumption camp even no matter what he. said. life is a gift you need to fight for it. and i think that's what's missing here. that we don't think life as a gift it's. a gift. like how many people had to fight for me. to be here today. think about the sacrifice they made for. many many many generations i don't even. know what they went through i can't even. fathom what they. went through they fought for life yeah. and that is my responsibility enough so.

it doesn't make them. their fault fire was not meaningless. right it meant. something because now i'm carrying on. that fight. you mentioned considering suicide. do you think about your mortality now. now that you're perhaps in slightly. more comfortable place you still think. about. death i do because i. was informed actually when i was 21 that.

i was on the killing list of kim jong-un. in by south korean intelligence and then. and then i i had to live with that right. but now i actually feel more because i. don't know you. follow jamal khashoggi's story the saudi. journalist. who got chopped off in turkey canvas. right. his reason why he got killed was he. became very prominent on twitter. he had a huge voice and saudis followed.

him. now i became very first north korean to. have this many social media followings. and recently north korea started. invasion investigation team to. analyze whatever i do even though it's. first time for them. so they don't even know what at this. point like they're like this is so new. what do we do with kim jong-nam. kim jong-nam the half-brother kim. jong-un got killed in malaysia. that is another tragedy that i feel so. sorry for the u.s government is that.

kim jong-nam was giving information to. the cia for the past like 10 years. that trip when he got killed in. malaysian airport he was meeting up with. the cia agent for two days on the. northern ireland. cia could have protected them they. didn't they let him die. and who killed them north korean kim. jong-un. do you know the malaysian the ladies are. the vx the nerve agent. north koreans kill them in malaysia in. the international land.

so i mean jamal khashoggi who was a. youth resident. and the washington post journalist when. he got killed in saudi like a lamb. they chopped them into pieces in that. most. inhumane death what was the consequences. for the saudis. nothing the word is we think we living. in justice. country now there's no justice there is. no accountability for killing any decent. no matter how big their names are so you. don't think. you're vast and quickly growing social.

media presence. protects you no it does opposite. because kim jong-un in german i spoke. out i don't know if you went through it. they. did everything they could to. characterize assassinate me. saying i'm a liar i'm a cia spy i get. paid. and then they reach out to penguin. saying we're gonna blow up. you cannot write this book and they did. it with the sony they hacked the sony. studio for making that stupid movie. interview right. and then penguin did their investigation.

they met. every survivor that i went through in. the desert they got the voice recording. of them. because they don't want them to change. their mind later right people remember. differently. so they got the voice recordings like. the penguin regarding got the old. audience. and now we are ready for the lawsuit we. are going to publish this book. because we checked to verify every. single thing that was going in the book. and north korea couldn't do anything. anymore but that's a character. assassination. which by the way that's a whole nother. conversation that you were able to.

survive that. i appreciate the kind of strength it. requires to survive that because you. don't know. and your character being assassinated is. in some ways. can be as painful as actual. assassination it's. worse everybody thinks you're a liar. yeah like everybody thinks. you're a liar yeah and now everybody. like you said this. nature of internet that as long as. something is written internet they think. that's a fact. yeah any stupid person can start a blog. and write about you. but they think oh because it's written.

on the internet it's a legit. especially negative stuff that's the. thing i was kind of trying to. elaborate on there's a viral aspect to. calling somebody a fraud or a liar yeah. that. nobody questions whether it's true or. not it just spreads yeah it's a. it's a dark side of our human nature. that we want to destroy. yeah the people who are rising yeah. we cannot stand it yeah yeah we any. change maker in this world who wasn't. controversial right martial. engineer like nurse mandela he was.

called as a terrorist. right so i just did not know. i the character assassination is the. thing it'll probably. continue with you it will continue. forever so you have to get stronger and. stronger i think in the face of that. but actual assassination and perhaps. it's me being hopeful because. i have a situation with russia that i. hope i'm not under. well i don't care actually but there's. some aspect in which social media. presence i thought protects you a little.

bit. because just imagine the outrage. from an attempted assassination. assassination of you. but what was our wage when drama koshki. got killed like that. was the social media presence large over. one million people i don't have that. family. he was 1.6 million twitter followers. and the outrage wasn't there no because. saudis. spoke to amazon the prime studio netflix.

there were people made a documentary. about him but told everybody don't. cannot get that deal so there was a huge. censorship on that. and people of course like i mean they. can talk about it one day. some distance from saudi got killed yeah. horrible it just dissipates like they. they move on to the next cute puppy. right they didn't execute cat like. that's what the nature of this. new generation does they desensitized it. doesn't affect them they. keep following the instant pleasure. instant high.

that's what instagram does to you it. changes your brain. like that's why i always reminisce about. the shallows we became shallow and. shallow. and our brain changes permanently so. this inner generation we can get them. angry for like 10 minutes. create hashtags for one day but then as. quick as that was. it goes down like instantly and i think. that's the. well that means that okay so that means. that there is uh. it's an effective way to get rid of. opposition is by murdering them.

and that means a united states if it. stands for freedom if it stands for. the freedom of exchange of ideas should. be protecting. people like you but they because they. don't want to be involved. they will they they they didn't even. protect kim jong-nam who was giving. information 10 years to risk in his life. that's what is so i mean working for cia. is not bad. i'm not i don't i hope i mean the thing. is. he was giving information to bring down. the vision yeah that is valuable that is.

something noble about him. but then you just don't go extra miles. to that. that's when i lost my faith in the u.s. system as well like this country. just cares about saving face what is. most. minimum because they pay for anything. and like i went up south korea. constantly every single day intelligence. calling me. like the north korean agent going this. place where are you going. the u.s citizens came to us nobody. they said when people said that you're a.

cia agent like i wish they called me. i really truly do but nobody nobody does. here. i'm sure they know what's going on but. the south korean agent is more like. oh my gosh we don't want you to get. killed a south korean citizen right. yeah and now i'm trying to become a. citizen. so it's in a way it's i don't know. what's worse. are you are you afraid for your life. i was afraid for those ever three four.

years i was afraid and it was. but i had to came terms with it like in. my enemy. is not on some crazy psychopath it's a. state. with a new career power to attack the. most powerful country. if kim jong-un decides if i die i'm. gonna die. it's not up to me right so in a way it's. just. liberating that you it's like if you are. like afraid of some mobs or some like. gangsters on the street. it's almost like you have power over a. little bit you gotta be like thinking.

that's my fault i. i went that way right but when it comes. to kim jong-un. i know like my enemy is so much bigger. than me. it's in always a liberation and also it. always. i just i live a lot so i have seen a lot. i've seen everything. i don't have that much yogurt left here. like okay i'm going too soon you know. it's like okay. maybe it's time like death is a part of. life. so in some sense you're willing to. accept death. to keep fighting for freedom in your.

in at least in part a place you call. home yeah. it is do you hope that one day you can. return to north korea. i hope so i hope i bring my son and tell. him this. is like where your ancestors from too. it would look very different than the. place you came from. in your as you hope. do you do you hope that there's a. democracy one day.

that north korea looks like south korea. well that'll be in paradise right. that's but i'm a rational optimist. i'm not like just optimistic because i. have to be. i think as long as there are people who. have changed the world right. like who believed in something and. worked for it. and like i don't know like there's a. like alice she wrote a few people. holding entirely this word. right i really believe in that i think.

as long as that continues that can. happen in my country. as long as people like you someday you. want to decide to do something about. north korean working for. using your brain power to solve this. puzzle how fascinating would that be. that's why i. continue to speak continue to recruit. to inspire millions to do something. the books you like are all the books i. love so. i have to mention this you mentioned uh.

briefly on the uh. with jordan uh siddhartha by herman. hesse. is uh it's an incredible book yeah. they're. i mean i don't i don't know exactly what. i want to ask here but there's some. i think the book kind of. through telling a story yeah reveals. that. life is suffering and yet there's beauty. in it the beauty in. every moment it uses kind of a river. painted metaphor is there is there um.

is there something that you could say. speak to like how that book. impacted your life and the way you live. life maybe the way you. see life whether it's on the life of. suffering side or that. life is beautiful side i mean he goes. the entire journey right. he goes in this state like i'm so. enlightened that i cannot. deal with people they're in love and cry. about it. right they're like that's so like. primitive. once he has his own son he actually.

being attached. he actually cares he actually really. does whole thing. right that's the thing that he used to. think not once his son comes find him. he looks at life differently i think. that's the thing i did have the kind of. journey where. oh nothing matters right so bitter so. so like so cynical and. after i met so many incred incredible. people i was talking about that. person who told me he was gay he told me.

i love you and i was like why do you. love me. in the past people when they wanted me. was because they want to rape me. everybody wanted something for me that's. why they wanted me. and i never understood you can love. somebody unconditionally. and this gay guy the last one was going. to sleep with me right. and he loves me and i think. i had a blessing after my journey. meeting people who. loved me unconditionally because i was. just being a human.

and i think that's what it is now for me. that like him. i live for love now i live for love any. kind of love love for knowledge. i like i read so many books because i. love books right. i love what i do i love my people i love. humanity. you know even it sometimes annoys me. i love myself and that's beautiful too. the annoying parts are beautiful too. what do you let me ask the ridiculous. question what do you think is the. meaning of this whole thing.

of uh what's the meaning of life. well i think at this point i stop. questioning why i'm here. right like it doesn't matter someone put. the atom there or the big bang. i'm here that's truth right i'm going to. accept that fully. so what instead of me keep asking the. impossible question what i'm here. i'm going to let you do that science do. that right. you guys go out in the space and look. for the evidence i'm contested. you accept that you're here and you're. just going to.

enjoy like you're here for love as you. said. that's the thing i think i'm here for. the. process of pursuing something bigger. than me process of doing something. it's not like a model it's not a virtual. signal or anything it just makes me. happy that i fight for something bigger. like that me right so how boring is it. every day you get up like oh my god i'm. gonna buy myself. this so i'm gonna get this for myself. it's so boring isn't it.

so in a way i think that's what it is i. i'm grateful. that i'm in a state i don't have to fly. for myself anymore. but many people have to do that and. that's sometimes more than enough they. have to do and i salute them they are. doing. fighting saving themselves every day but. now i'm. i'm not there i'm very blessed that's. why i'm very grateful. so fighting for something much bigger. than you but do you still believe. that you can change the world that you.

can be a thing that. at least in part helps north korea or. even broader helps alleviate. some suffering in the world so that's. the thing uh i was reading this book. food. by randomness right yeah. i was like they're up here like oh my. god you're so courageous you're amazing. i was like you know i'm not i'm horrible. right i know myself you don't want to. tell me that. it's random why i end up here like why. did i pick up english so quickly why do.

i love books right. i don't know why yeah it's random don't. ask why. just enjoy it yes it's random i think i. don't know how. the history will remember me i think. only thing i have to at this point to. make sure is that the people. after constructing a lot of security. teams like now north korea. became less smarter like you said they. may be more disguised as a like a. suicide. and a car accident yeah so when i die. they don't even know i got killed. yeah i think that's a higher chance so.

i think that's the thing like people are. suffering take it or not it's. your choice and at least it's my. responsibility for them to know what's. going on. i think if you did not know and didn't. do anything you are not even guilty of a. thing. but once you know then you are not doing. it then you. something is like not right so that's. what i'm doing like. i want the people to know and then. what they are gonna do is not my my.

problem afterwards right. so my role is very small in that regards. and. i just hope that would. humanize north koreans for the first. time because we have been so dehumanized. right like we are like looking like. robots if you look at us marching and. cry like. when dear later dies it almost seems. like you don't even have the same. emotions people cannot connect us. in the same level and i think that's.

something is uh we that's something. media have done it to us and you're. you're shining a small light on this. dark part of the world that i think. and you make it you're so modest but i. think. i think you will have that little light. uh just might be a big thing that. changes. that incredible amount of suffering. that's happening on that part of the. world. you know me you're you're an amazing.

person. i'm so fortunate i get a chance to talk. with you i can't wait what you do in the. future. you're i hope you write many more books. i i do. hope you uh continue making videos. continue having conversations you're an. inspiration to me and. millions of others i really appreciate. you talking with me today. i'm so honored thank you thank you. thank you for listening to this. conversation with you on me park and. thank you to. valcampo the gala games better help.

and eight sleep check them out in the. description to support this podcast. and now let me leave you some words from. bob marley. better to die fighting for freedom and. be a prisoner. all the days of your life thank you for. listening. and hope to see you next time.