Tom Brands: Iowa Wrestling | Lex Fridman Podcast #245

the following is a conversation with tom. brands olympic champion and world. champion in freestyle wrestling. three-time ncaa wrestling champion at. university of iowa and one of the. greatest coaches in the history of. wrestling leading the university of iowa. hawkeyes for 15 years including in 2021. winning the national championships and. getting a coach of the year award his. third. he is known for his intensity focus and. mental toughness embodying both as a.

wrestler and coach the culture and. spirit of iowa wrestling. we recorded this conversation almost. exactly three years ago after i attended. the university of iowa versus iowa state. wrestling meet. in the historic carver hawkeye arena. tom graciously invited me to his home. where his family a couple of friends and. me spent several hours chatting about. wrestling in life. we recorded this brief. podcast conversation that evening and i.

wasn't sure where. how or whether we'll publish it. but returning to it now three years. later i realized just how meaningful. that evening was for me and even though. i was nervous didn't even put on my. jacket. it's a moment i would love to share with. others. the mix of intensity and heartfelt. kindness from tom and his family made me. want to stay in iowa forever i think i. will return there soon enough. because of the amazing people there.

and because i was still in many ways the. heart of the indomitable spirit of. american wrestling a sport i love and to. which i'm deeply grateful for humbling. me early in life. and helping me and many others build. character through hard work. this is the lex friedman podcast to. support it please check out our sponsors. in the description and now here's my. conversation with tom brands.

what's the best motivator for you or for. your athletes. hatred of losing or. love of winning for me personally it was. definitely the hatred of losing i was. not a guy that was about pageantry. i was not a guy that was about the. parade. when i wrestled in atlanta. i ran in a three-cylinder geo with my. wife drove home and mowed the lawn. because it hadn't been moaned for a. month. and i remember one of our neighbors. driving by and they were like they did a. double take like well that's the i.

thought he was in atlanta well i was in. atlanta yesterday and just sat on the. stand and got a gold medal put around my. neck. that's how i was that doesn't mean that. it was the right approach or the wrong. approach it's just what worked for me. but when you were a kid you and terry. you dreamed about winning that olympic. gold yeah it's all winning then there is. the the the lure of winning but what. drives you is that. um. you know as you move forward there's. just no. reason that you have to settle for.

anything but being the best. and if if. it just it would get to you to the point. where. that's not going to happen to me again. so what the thing that keeps you up at. night is the the losses and that's not. that's not going to happen to me again. that's the thought that keeps you up at. night that's the thought that drives you. in your training that's why you do. you know nine ropes when gable says do. three ropes and bunny push-ups and. you're out of here and you do nine or. you do them until you can't do any more.

and. it's a very rare ingredient the older i. get the more rare i find it is. the ingredient of. lost feeding. feeding that the drive of hard training. maybe that because everybody's so. worried about the negative whatever and. you're putting too much pressure on. yourself so maybe that but what i meant. was is when a coach says okay finish. with four ropes and. you know bunny push-ups and four-way. neck. you know i would do 12 or 10. that's.

rare it's no longer about what the coach. says it's your own demons that you're. trying to. exercise out what's. the few losses you've had in your life. are all of them just. melt together or is there something that. stands out in your mind i'm i'm guy that. remembers. my career that well. i know that i am judged on. a very small portion of my life and. that's minutes.

of wrestling matches you know a lot a. lot of winning but there's some losing. in there too and. you know people think they know you. because of that and. they think they know you because they. see you in a press conference but. um you know to go back to the original. question. you know i don't know how to answer that. so there's no losses that just. that eat at you still there's opponents. that i. have learned a great deal from i mean my. loss to john smith.

in. 1991. us open was something that i learned a. lot. about. i learned a lot about positioning i. learned a lot about the importance of. parterre. um. you know in a certain kind of crazy way. i learned that i could go with the best. guy in the world even though it was 14. to 4. and this is when tech falls were 15 or. 12 points so i didn't get tech fault and. i wasn't that wasn't a badge of honor. for me. but i knew i could go with him because. it was one point take downs i scored. four takedowns on him.

and i learned that i had to move my feet. and i learned what it meant to move your. feet constantly and and there's no. break john smith is a very very intense. competitor that people know that now. six-time world olympic champion and i. felt that firsthand. but i did not go in there um. taking a back seat even though the score. um was very lopsided but you knew you. could stand with the best of the world i.

knew that i this is what this is about. and you know what you move your feet. and you don't give up a lace that's so. damn tight that it you can't you know. feel your calf muscle. you know and i got to get ready for the. consolation side of the bracket because. i believe that was in the semis. you know you know you just learn from. that and it was it was better than. learning from. you know a win over a. second ranked senior level guy when. you're a junior in college. you know you rest on the best on a stage.

so if you look back you probably spent. tens of thousands of hours on the mat. spilled sweat blood. even tears maybe maybe a few times. so technically or philosophically how. would you do any of those hours. differently just looking back. at the tens of thousands of hours i. would be more. probably in my older age i probably. would have been more relaxed in my. training. and probably wouldn't win another cycle.

if i could do it over again. in 96 i really thought that when gable. retired that i would be the next guy in. line and i was wrong and that was. immature of me. in terms of the coach in terms of the. coach yes. and i knew that gable was close i mean i. didn't know when but it just so happens. you know in 97 was his record-breaking. year and then he retired. but i didn't know how close he was but i. knew that he had you know he went down. with a bad hip injury and. and so you know you're just you're.

you're not gonna. so what is what what is a relaxed tom. brands looks like you're saying you. would you would have been a little more. relaxed more like where you know what i. was pretty dang good and i was getting. better every day. but maybe do it a little bit different a. little bit smarter and terry actually. did that going. through 2000. he had to do it and he would have been. in in the you know the funny farm let. alone the you know the the physical farm.

whatever you want to say. mentally and physically beat up but. he had to learn to. less is more type approach and. how it came around was is. you know you work hard at feeling good. you work hard in your recovery so even. when you're not. wrestling hard in that wrestling room. and looking for the toughest partner. to go you're still working hard. in your recovery and massage could be.

that. stretching could be that. um thing things like that that are more. fluffy. and that's something you weren't as good. at. never. never um. there's not a place for it with young. people. because in my opinion. there's so much development to have. happen. i mean when when you need to learn. wrestling you need to be wrestling. and as you get older um you your body.

won't do it anymore. and so to learn wrestling it's more of a. probably a relaxed approach so if you. have to choose between two athletes. who would dominate competition one who. drills 100 000 reps of a specific. takedown specific technique. or one that spends that time live. wrestling both um it's the same and i. like to live wrestling i was always. wanting to live wrestle bring the. warm-up into the live wrestle let's go.

but where i got really really good was a. repetition. and i was disciplined enough to know. that the things that you hate. to do in this sport are the things that. make you the very best. and that is a rare ingredient as i've. gotten older and you spend a lot of time. communicating that to younger athletes. so the thing. if you feel yourself hating something. that's probably a thing you should be. doing yes as a matter of fact i had a. strength coach when i was really young. he was just a. freaking guy that would.

we wore white. like he was almost like a nurse nurse's. clothes he wore all white from head to. toe and he was in cheyenne wyoming. and his first name was walt. and he taught terry and i to hate the. bar away from you on that last rep when. you're dead and whether it's a curl you. hate it up. and then you do the negative and you. hate it down and you hate that bench up. and you hate it you look at the bar and. you hate it away from you. so. you know i learned and that i was young.

i was young and uh i remember being born. my mom's sister lived out there and we. were dropped off to stay out there with. our cousins and i was born a little bit. and they always treated us really good. but this was like the. the single most. um. bright spot in a weightlifting like. enlightenment even though i lifted. weights. but i never knew the psychology behind. lifting weights it's just to look good. and so you can flex and look in the. mirror or is it for performance. and this guy was about performance.

and you said repetition do you mean. technique i'm talking repetition. technique technique technique drill. drill drill hit hit hit drive finish hit. hit hit drive finish so you believe in. that you believe i believe in that. wholeheartedly so. i mean i believe that you have to do it. on your own. i don't believe in the coach taking you. to the promised land. so. in the guys today. or in yourself how often do you see. people that. grow the belief of doing ten thousand.

twenty thousand reps i think it's rare i. think it's very rare and i think it's. especially rare i mean you can talk. about that as a coach but it's. especially rare. to. bring a guy to that understanding but. you never stop trying you're always. trying to reach them. i mean we didn't have a good performance. out there tonight but. you know what you don't stop. communicating. and there's a lot of programs out there. that put their head down. when things aren't going their way and. then as things start going their way.

then they rise with the tide. there was no difference in the demeanor. that that of our corner and we talk. about that's a philosophy and so you're. reaching your guys that way. um so go back to your point or your. question you know do you believe in the. in the 10 000 reps and yes i do. and. how do you inspire people to do that so. well you communicate by example but. communication but i mean that's a. in my experience what i've seen. uh communicating the value of repetition. and drilling is a hard thing to.

communicate it's hard and it's very rare. to have somebody that goes in there and. will do it on their own do you have. young guys that step up and do that we. do and it's rare and the guys that do it. on their own and have done it on their. own are the guys that. are in that lineup and and doing well. um the other thing is is that. when you talk about uh getting to that. next level. um a lot of times it's. you know what held you back was i did. everything the coach asked of me and.

nothing more. right i mean you could be a great guy. for a for an a for a coach as an athlete. and you did everything that coach asked. but you did nothing more. so you're really looking for the guys. that. go way beyond what the coaches we don't. want guys that are looking at their. watch running out of the room when. practice is over. we want guys that know what they have to. get done and they might leave early. but they're not looking at their watch. they might be done early they might be.

we might be on a whole different path. and this guy just excuses himself i'm. all about that. we are not we are not autocrats there's. an internal engine in there is that. something you're born with or is that. something you can develop i think you. are born with it you develop it also and. i think that there has to be comfort and. then go back to communication. that. young people are. comfortable enough to communicate that i. need to take the day off. so what do you mean by communication.

differently just let exactly so letting. letting athletes. uh be part of their own development. communication to me is is is letting. them know. what their what they need to do to get. themselves in contention to be the. starting quarterback. and then to give them. boosts and compliments when they earn. them. and. i don't have time to waste.

with. um. with lies and cheating. and when i say cheating i'm talking. about when they cheat themselves and so. those become very direct conversations. and the conversation starts like this i. don't have time to waste it neither do. you. and so why are we wasting our time and. here's what i mean by that. we're having a conversation about. you know your accountability. if you look in the mirror and you're. accountable then we are we aren't taking. the time to go through this. we're already on our way to solving the.

problem problem can't be solved without. that understanding. and that's. has to do with symptoms that you see in. the wrestling room there's something. where the father is not doing with. mental emotional spiritual physical. everything everything that you know. about you know i had a boss and our. athletic director is a great athletic. director and he gives us everything we. need to be successful but i had a boss. his name was fred mims and i didn't. think anybody could be better than him. and then all of a sudden this gene. taylor guy came in and i didn't and then. he was pretty doggone good too and he.

actually. you know was just like fred and maybe. even a little bit more current and then. he ended up taking a job at kansas state. where he's the athletic director now and. and then this this lady barbara burke. comes in. and i didn't think anybody could be. better than gene taylor or fred mims and. this barbara burke she's better than. both of them. and the reason why is because she's a. problem solver she doesn't waste time. she's direct and she's a problem solver. and that's what we need you need problem. solvers.

so on the flip side. of. problems and technique and repetition. here's a a thing called toughness mental. toughness. something that maybe you or maybe even. iowa in general is a little bit known. for so how do you train mental toughness. as a coach you train metal toughness by. putting them in situations that. they're. willing to go through but don't think. they can make it and then they go. through it and then all of a sudden.

those marries are down. does that have to do. with physical usually exhaustion. the reps on the ropes it has to do with. that and it has to do with. uh understanding why we're doing it and. sometimes understanding why we're doing. it might not come for months but there's. blind faith. and we have a heavyweight in the room. right now this this young guy that. he's like that he doesn't necessarily. understand it he asks a lot of questions.

but he does it. and he's been here four months now four. and a half months now and he's getting. better every day. so mental toughness too is a matter of. repetition so that's mental toughness. it's a matter of repetition and having. an open mind and being extremely. accountable and and not only accountable. that. when you. maybe. um when something doesn't go your way. that you look in the mirror and own it. but accountable. to the point of view that you know what. i gotta get tough in this situation.

right here right now and this is what's. gonna make or break me and i talked. about my own career being defined by you. know a couple of minutes on the mat. but that's when you're gonna be defined. that's how you're gonna be defined. that's okay. so. people are going to talk about you so. you might as well have them talking. about how dog untouched you are. what about. we live in a world now i've often in my. own work i hear about this concept of. work-life balance or over-training.

so you've been one of the hardest. workers ever on the mat you've coached. some of the hardest workers ever. do you think it's possible to over train. train too much how big of a concern i. think. peaking and burnout are frames of mind. or burnout as a. is a like you let things probably get to. the point where you could have arrested. them. with a good frame of mind. but peaking is a frame of mind and. you know you have to know be able to. read and that's a lot of it.

and the individual athlete also has to. know. that it's a frame of mind and so when. you have a coach that's reading that the. right way. and you have an athlete that is knowing. that it when zero hour comes that you're. gonna be ready to go. um and knowing that there's light at the. end of the tunnel if you feel like. you're burning that candle at both ends. lights coming into the at the end of the. tunnel i mean you're good to go. so you think about gable and. that whole dream of being carried off.

the mat because you worked so hard. again do you think it's possible to. overtrain so you said it's a. it's mental i do think it's possible to. overtrain if you have a lot of. distractions. and if you're looking at your watch. running out of the room. then yeah you're gonna in that frame of. mind isn't gonna lend itself to. excellency and. the thing is is we we have to accomplish. what we need to get accomplished and get. better every day you can't kind of. accomplish what you need in companies. you have to accomplish it. and when when you're in that mindset.

then the clock is irrelevant there's no. place for a clock in the wrestling room. and maybe a clock that times a match. but it may be a clock if you know we're. at student athletes here but that's why. we encourage our. you know. when you schedule your classes that you. don't have a class that comes right up. to. you know practice time or starts as a. night class and it starts at 5 30. you. know go to get the 6 30 class or the 7. o'clock so you leave it all behind your.

heart your passion is completely there's. no when you walk in that wrestling room. there's no distractions and it's never. eternal the only thing that's eternal is. death. you know there's nothing sometimes guys. come in there and they wig out. oh it's an hour and. 25 minutes and. or an hour and 45 minutes oh. yeah you have to be willing to go. as long as it takes there's no clock. there's no clock. again wrestlers are some of the hardest.

some of the toughest people. in all sports but weight cutting often. breaks people so what's your thought on. weight cutting both nutrition wise. mental wise how do you. approach and think of it as a coach in. your own career too. it's a lot of discipline and it's a lot. of discipline. during a very uncomfortable time period. that really doesn't last that long when. it feels like it lasts long and it's. painful. and but once you shrink your body down. and if you're hydrated you'll get.

through it if you're a little hungry but. you're eating. but you're hydrated. once you break that sweat your energy. depletion goes away that's a fact i've. practiced that you come in and you're. yawning. and you're you know you're starting to. shrink your body down and it's that time. of year where hey i got to get my body. shrunk down. and you're dehydrated you are dead in. the water. but if you're hungry. and hydrated when you break that sweat.

people gotten better with that over the. years over the past few days i think. that coaches science is better i think. that coaches communicate it i think they. always have. i think the bottom line is is having the. energy to implement that and taking a. guide by the hand. when he doesn't understand and he's new. in your program and he's essential. and or he's unwilling to and not. discipline enough because when you think. by the hand enough they will learn that. discipline. this is an important aspect of wrestling. buddy you know what i'm saying so you.

know it's not just go and show up for. the match. i mean it's not about just making weight. either you got to be able to make weight. that's part of the. warm-up that's part of the process. getting ready to wrestle the whole thing. it's a lifestyle yeah. when did you first start believing. you're going to win olympic gold. i don't know i mean i found out i got. really addicted to wrestling really. really fast. started late but looking back at my life.

um. wrestled my whole life with my twin. brother. and when terry and i would fight it was. wrestling and it was to mame. and so if if you were if you're if so if. you're trying to maim me i better be. tough because if i roll over. and expect you to scratch my belly when. you're trying to maim me i won't lose my. head. and tom and terry brands there was no. alpha male. and when it was on it was on for real. what do you mean there's no alpha male.

there's. both. a lot of twins there's a dominant twin. oh a lot of them. very few times is there a situation. where you're gonna i'm gonna win every. time and everything and then he's. thinking the same exact way and terry. used to describe it like when we just. get interviewed a lot about our careers. um. like it'd be like you grabbing a. steering wheel and me grabbing a. steering wheel and fighting and that's. what it was like when you would wrestle. him or fight him. and so i had that benefit so when did i.

know well i got addicted to wrestling. really really fast in fifth grade and. started to research it and i don't know. why. and talked about the olympics and. um put it in my head and. a member. said something about being an olympic. champion in fifth grade and somebody. made fun of me and i got into fighting. the playground. and i remember um. getting pulled in getting in trouble for. that. and the people that got me in trouble. for that were smart enough.

to not rake me over the coals but they. researched or they actually found out. what the fight was about and i was. distraught. i was i was really emotional like crying. or whatever you want to say you don't. want to admit that too many times. but it wasn't because i got beat up or. got my nose blood he never got punched. in the face or broke my arm. or there was any pain it was because. they stomped on my dream and they. doubted me and so i fought for that. and you know that was a lesson there's.

going to be a lot of doubters. and one thing we talk about as a staff. is our staff has to be lockstep. in that hallway in our offices. and when you deviate outside of that. that is. heresy so everybody has to be on board. confident that you're going to be number. one when we go forward and we go put our. public foot forward there is a decision. we are unified and there is no. backbiting. and we have great people right now we.

hadn't had that before we've had the. tractors in our hawkeye wrestling club. we've had guys that would go out and get. rolled up in ankle laces and not care. in our club and we got brandon sorenson. who got rolled up by james green last. night but i'll tell you what i don't i. don't have a problem with that you know. why because i know it means a lot to him. he didn't roll over. he didn't quit because he was on the. consolation side of a bracket. and so when you have that and then you. have you know if there's a disagreement. it's behind closed doors and then you're.

moving forward. and when you have people that when. they're meeting your fans and your. supporters you know they're talking the. right way with the right message. and anything that's caddy wonkas to that. you got to be careful there. you got to be careful there. so that in terms of affirmations in. terms of really believing as a team as. an individual believing that you're the. best in the world. did did you i'm sure you had detractors. you had. people that continued after fifth grade. and that's probably where my hatred of.

losing trump's my love for winning. because i wanted to shove it up their. rear end bad. yeah. and the thing is is we maintain a high. level and there's very few programs so. oklahoma state. ohio state now penn state. i mean there's four programs that try to. win a national title every year and. that's it and these these other teams. they get up and they got a good team and. they get up and they get going and then.

when when things don't go well okay. we're gonna do it next year or this is a. down year we're gonna we're gonna get. right we're three years out so no matter. what you're fighting for first we we do. and we haven't won and now you say well. we've been one in eight years well. you're right we haven't. but look at our results are better. better than anybody out there and it's. me besides penn state and it's because. of our. mentality and because we have great. people ryan morningstar bobby tell from. terry brands our medical team even. our strength coach quinn holland we're.

all on the same page. and when i send something i hit it. immediately i don't have time to waste. there will not be an ascension in that. hallway everybody's in uh together yeah. 1996 olympic games in atlanta can you. take me through the day when you're. going for the 62kg. what did you eat. drink what did you think oh it really. doesn't matter um i have a routine that. you know i had a routine as a competitor. that i could run through right now.

um it was a lot of self-talk very very. positive self-talk visualization yes. visualization. self-talk. and and that's how i i was able to relax. and getting ready for matches my whole. life. learned that very early age at a camp in. a developmental camp. at a young age terry united. and. i can tell you what i ate. and i can tell you what i did to relax. and it doesn't matter.

what you have to do is you have to find. that. piece. and i just know that when i was getting. ready for. the finals match i had gone back to my. room i had my relaxed material. you know and i was able to relax because. i. prepared for it. uh hopefully i'm right on this but. just looking at the insane bracket you. had to go through you had to beat just. to get to the faunas to be three world. champions. eventually world champ i mean they've. and you know what i don't talk about.

that and nobody else does either but. everybody talks about in their own. career. so now you're making my head big. but yeah i had a road i had a road. you're right that is the hardest bracket. i've seen so i've talked to a lot of. olympic champions. this is the hardest bracket i've seen of. any champion so uh maybe i'm confused on. this but it seemed like a really tough. day for you did you have. did you know the bracket ahead of time. did you know you faced you you see the. draw and it's a two-day tournament.

so psychology comes into it as much as. physical shape. um you know because there's those you. gotta sleep. you know the night before after the. weigh-in then you gotta sleep again that. next night after your semi-final match. is gonna be in the morning. you know and then you have to go back. and rest cause your final matches and. until whatever time it was. and so all this relaxation and all that. stuff that you just talked about that. visualization and self-talk that's what. helps it's your routine. and was there any doubt any fear any.

anything there the fear is the type of. fear. and i just talked about this to one of. my athletes today jack dempsey talked. about fear. and the fear of losing is what motivated. him to try to take his opponent's head. off he was a boxer. and. that's okay. so fear of competition fear of screwing. up fear of oh i don't feel good no. no but that little fear that you know. what there's somebody out there that.

thinks that you know what they they're. gonna they're gonna revel in my. they're gonna they're gonna. they're gonna eat it up in my misery. they're gonna love they're gonna be. thriving because i fail. and and i'm not gonna let that happen. your identical twin brother terry you've. been adam like you said. your whole life and you're both. some of the greatest wrestlers of all. time you won the gold medal he won the. bronze medal. you've mentioned you know all that.

really matters is the six minutes or. you know just a few minutes sometimes a. few seconds to find your whole career so. how do you think about that thin line. the tragic line at the olympic level. between winning and losing i think you. come to peace that. in the end when it's over that you did. the best you could. and that's certainly the case with terry. um he has a career credentials are. better than mine internationally. you know he won two world championships. i won one. and he won olympic bronze medal and.

um. you know i won olympic gold medal but i. only won one and the thing is is. that's not what's important anyway. what's important is is that. when it's all over. you know how do you. look back on it and you're kind of like. well you just said that you made sure. that you weren't going to leave anything. undone. but you know what there were tournaments. where i did leave things undone and so. how do you come back from that well. terry never came back from 2000 because.

he retired well you know what you. duplicate and exceed. when you're communicating to these young. athletes. and because of that experience that. makes terry a better coach because of. you know. 1995 that makes me a better coach. you know. realizing that there are certain things. that. unraveled in that year that i could have. controlled looking back on it. and when you have that perspective you. can communicate. so what control is there.

can you control everything. how big of a role is luck control. how you react to an injury. control that so you can't you don't have. any control over it it's over. you know whatever and. whatever happened. but. relax. and you learn to deal with injuries. better because of that you have that. experience that you let this thing maybe. get the best of you and that's just an. example and. you know terry put a lot of demons to.

rest. with that bronze medal. so becoming an olympic medalist a few. demons could relax well a little he will. never admit that and he probably is. truthful and i should i'm speaking for. him but he is truthful when he says that. but if if i look at it and bronze sucks. um but. if i look at it he did put some demons. in rest and i'm proud of him for it. there's something there that is.

a consolation. in the fact that he won the consolation. medal. the consolation medal sucks but there is. a consolation that he won the. consolation that's a tough medal to win. by the way yeah. but do you see the the shakespearean. tragedy of it all that uh the line. between winning and losing so you'd. often say that you know winning is. everything but. it feels like especially at the olympic. level or you talk about ncaa finals or. that tournament you know a.

a split second. miss move can result in a loss where you. dominated all the way up to there. you that's where your psychology comes. in and that's where the repetition and. all of the self-talk and visualization. and the physical shape and. everything comes together. and so that doesn't happen and tonight. you we got beat twice. actually three times and we out wrestled. those we we lost three matches and we. out wrestled the guy for six minutes and.

thirty seconds. or one one match went to overtime. and if our guys can move forward with. the right perspective i'm confident that. they'll. be better. i'll tell you what i'd take our guy over. their guy any day. any day because our guys get up for. every match and now we got a lot to work. on. right a lot to work on but you know what. i can say all that and i'll take our guy. and blah blah blah but what are they. going to do tonight in their meal how.

are they going what are they going to do. tonight and their rest what are they. going to do tomorrow in their recovery. on their own necessarily what are they. going to do. monday. great. wrestlers can. use their imagination with a win. that they're not. satisfied with. and go forward as if it was a loss but. it's still easier to go forward with. that win. but they can they don't just. oh i want i'm fine it goes on but then.

when they lose the exact same way that. they could have lost before then they go. off the deep end and then that's when. they're going to make the change in. their life and we talked to we talked. about that to our team tonight. and. the the mature. rare ingredient is. is guys that can get better. even with success. like it was a loss without beating. themselves up that's complicated it is. it's a balance. you often talk about iowa's focus on. creating individual champions.

like spencer lee. can you explain the philosophy of. focusing on individuals versus the team. i think that we need to put them both. together and the individual impacts the. team and. you know we haven't done that since 2010. and we need to do a better job of. putting 10 weight classes out there that. contribute to the team and. if it's not ten then it's nine. and if it's not nine it can't be four.

you know and that takes a lot of pride. and it takes a lot of. um. you know where the coach is on top of it. and. you know you're not just. working on the easy things. the glaring things you're working on. everything. what do you mean by everything so the. like there's just some you know there's. ideas that. um.

when you're a coach uh. that aren't they're beneath the surface. and you've got to find them. and so when communication comes in yeah. but you're talking about. yeah we got to move forward what does. that mean well i know what that means. but how many how many. guys really know what that means in. their program. you know there's so many levels of that. you've said before that winning is. everything.

uh. and that means people lose most people. lose. you know there's there's really in. whatever the context is only one winner. in many parts of our world today outside. of wrestling that concept the brutal. honesty of that is uncomfortable for. people so how do you think. about this very. philosophical difficult concept of. you know. they're only being one winner that. winning is everything this kind of. really painful idea.

i don't think that that's. a bad thing to have that mentality i. mean i think a kudukov. i remember a story i read about him he. comes to mind um. you know. sargosh i remember when he lost in. london. and i remember the look on his face and. those are some of the greatest wrestlers. in the history of the sport freestyle. wrestling and. um. you know what it's what works for you. and you you can talk about being at.

peace with your results and and that the. approach is in the journey is what it's. about but. um and that's great and that relaxes. some champions and that makes some. champions really really tick. um but not everybody. so it's okay it's okay and if that wigs. you out that that really makes you. uptight then then then go the other. route you have to find what works for. you that takes a lot of work if you're. lazy. forget it.

forget it. so you and terry. but in general. how do you find the line between. extremely physical extreme physical. wrestling and rough wrestling or angry. wrestling so to which degree has anger. whether it's in your wrestling room. these days or in your own career entered. wrestling do you see it as a tool that. can be. used. in the wrestling match i think there's a. balance or not even a male there's a. line that you go up to and you can't. cross it sportsmanship is everything you.

can get dinged for points you can get. thrown out of tournaments there's rules. with um. flagrant misconduct where you're kicked. out of the match. other team gets the points and then you. have to sit the next meet. so it's very serious the ncaa. sends a message a very serious message. about sportsmanship and so we talk about. that the other thing with wrestling is. there's rules in wrestling. these guys that are tough guys. outside of the rules.

that's that's what you want in your. opponent that means they're frustrated. you got to be you got to be a tough guy. inside the rules of the sport. that's that's more honorable. than cold cocking somebody and knocking. them out so yeah anger doesn't mean. breaking the rules but i mean you know. you. a lot of people know you just watching. you as a coach. there's quite a bit of passion there. well come and do what you're doing. tonight i mean break bread with me in my. kitchen and see how big of a jackass i.

am now you're a pretty nice guy well i'm. not asking for that necessarily but. thanks i'm saying. you know what you you as a coach i mean. come okay come spend a month in our. program and you'll see really what kind. of. what kind of people we are. and there's a stigma out there because. they are very threatened by our program. there's nobody else that threatens. the sport of wrestling like we do and. that's the truth. there's a legend to iowa wrestling.

there's uh it's one of the most. intimidating there's a legend to john. smith it's the same thing. but they can't up for john smith they. get up for oklahoma state. they get up for penn state. my question is okay i'll answer it this. way i'll give you i'll give you an. example in my coaching career i coached. at virginia tech for 22 months. we recruited the number one recruiting. class. we got the administration to change. 100 180 how they looked at wrestling.

here's the thing and because of how. serious we were and because we weren't. idiots. we were able to do that with our. administration but my point is this. we tried to win. we tried to win even at virginia tech it. wasn't a stepping stone for me it ended. up being one quickly. and looking back on it i was a fool to. think that i'd be there for 20 years but. you believed you would be i did yeah i. did. i did. so do you remember a time.

that you really pushed yourself to your. limits. so gable talks about having to be. carried off the mat. have you really found that level i said. something about that too in a book and i. think i was misquoted one time um. and actually it was gabo's quote i was. trying to make the point that gable's. quote was like this and. you know they weren't making it like it. was my own ones i think it was a first. wrestling tough book but. it's good it's a good book. but the story is gables.

and i don't know if there's anybody that. has done that besides him. and i think that's a very rare quality. um. but i've definitely been in that nirvana. level. of you know either you you could go all. day long. and it doesn't you have to you have to. shoot me to stop me yeah. but there's a balance because you're not. going hard with and holding your breath. it's not. it's a relaxed.

and like. you've got a guy cornered and who's most. dangerous. well the guy that's cornered and so. that's where you relax i'm not bum. rushing him. i'm relaxed i'm still moving fake and. very fluid guy falls down on his face i. run around behind him. that's offense. you don't have to just. grunt to the leg and call that offense. offense is a. in and out smooth now you sound like a. russian wrestler.

yeah well that's. they're the best. in a certain light looking at the. history of wrestling. wrestling is much bigger than folk style. freestyle greco. it's it's one of the oldest forms of. combat period there's been cave drawings. 15 000 years ago do you ever see. so you're you're. uh one of the great coaches of all time. you're not focusing a particular rule. style right now. but do you ever see wrestling as bigger. than all of. this you know as as uh one of the pure.

combats i do and we're raising 20. million dollars for a facility to make. it the best facility on the planet we. have a vision to build the best facility. on planet earth and put the best. wrestlers in it. and that is bigger than wrestling. it's for the university of iowa. and our donors are doing it for the. university of iowa but it is about. the value of wrestling to me also. there is so much value to wrestling.

blind. blind people don't play football they. wrestle blind people don't play. basketball i mean maybe they do. but it'd be. very difficult they can wrestle. wrestling is a feel sport. yeah there's no ball there's nothing. it's just two guys or two girls and. that's it that's right and you can. i mean i'm not going to say you can't. because somebody will get a hold of this. and i'll get an email or a letter that. says you said blind people can't play. baseball and blah blah.

i'm just saying that blind people can. wrestle very effectively yes i've. wrestled with with my eyes shut i mean. was honest about it too. and it was i was effective so why why. was i able to be effective because. wrestling is it isn't is a sport that. you you can overcome a lot your demons. that you're overcoming. they're not limited. with. whether i'm blind or not the demons that. are overcoming are inside you you have. to overcome those demons from within.

so what's the future of iowa wrestling. look like with this facility and this. momentum you have now and this great. group of guys you have now we have a. good young group of guys and. um you know there is a lot of buzz. in the program and probably hasn't been. this much buzz for quite some time. and our job is to. you know be. relaxed and be focused and not get. caught up in the buzz.

but we have to put it together. and we have a catalyst spencer lee but. he's gonna have to he's gonna have to. get better. and we have some other catalysts as well. that are. um you know gonna help us in the future. um but they gotta get better. and so all this stuff about independence. and accountability. and you know. being able to get better every day under. duress. and. not knowing that you're getting better. but you are you know you know what that.

you know what i mean by that. like the great thing about gable was. wrestling for him was is you were. getting better and you didn't know you. were getting better. well yeah just like you said uh grow. from success so even you. you never allow yourself to think that. you're. that you're you're getting good all of a. sudden you do something in the practice. room that you've been working on and all. of a sudden you hit it it's like it was. automatic yeah and then that you know. become yeah that multiplies success and. so if i may say so you're a bit of a.

man of the bible wha what's. where do you go. what do you go to the bible for your. faith. strength love paper same things they. talked about things that you can't. control you turn them over. so. the biggest thing for me is i gotta turn. over the things that i can't control. turn them over. to that power. and i'm gonna be a lot better off and. that's the reason why i'm not in the. funny farm. because it's very competitive to me. yeah it's very serious.

that we we know that these young. wrestlers come to school here to be the. best that they can be and to accomplish. goals that like me when i was young. they've set out to accomplish. and they chose iowa to do that so we. have to deliver. and because of that. peace with god you know it's pure. it's a pure motivation it's a pure. um.

platform it's not it's not. doing this for my ego. we're not corrupt people we're not liars. and cheaters. and so often. uh that gets in the way of a decent. person. yeah first and foremost you're a good. person and god helps you be that. yeah and we're serious about wrestling. uh. so. a couple more questions. what's the role of family in wrestling.

you mentioned your wife. who i read uh turned you down. when you asked her for a phone number. said it's in the phone book that's. pretty smooth her story of that is that. she didn't want me to have to remember. the number. and i say. at this point and i say there's no way. and i remember it very clearly like hey. it's in the phone book and i was like. okay she's blowing me off that's okay. but luckily anyway here's the thing with.

family i mean we we have great people in. our program we have great parents we. have a culture of parents. that that's part of the buzz. and this class that you see wrestling. right now that's been here a year now. lee mirin costello warner and then lugo. was a transfer and i'm forgetting. somebody and i don't want to forget. anybody but. um these parents are phenomenal and. that's a different parental culture. so the camera's dad is the same and.

and. so. there's a lot of good there and that. that's a big that's a big. a big movement because how we talk to. parents we don't talk to parents to get. along with them we talk to parents to. help them understand you know where. we're at with their sons. and when you can have a direct. conversation with a parent who is. helping his son or her son the mom. helping her son. to be accountable. and to own it then you can get a lot. accomplished and that's what we've been.

able to do and so you're solving. problems like i talked about earlier. that's part of the family the other part. of the family is the coaches. are like family the other part of the. family is the coaches. significant others and wives are part of. the family and we fed you know we fed 40. guys and. an entire coaching staff and wives and. their children here at thanksgiving. and that equals 70 people. and it's it's fun.

it's fun. so. family means administration gary barna. my my athletic director gives us. everything that we need to be successful. and he has an open mind. for the sport of wrestling and. wrestling's important in iowa so that's. a no-brainer but. not if you're not a wrestling guy. but he seems we do it the right way and. so. the commitment is there from him if we. were doofuses. you know he the commitment wouldn't be. there. so family is everybody's all in i mean.

it's from the restless to the family it. goes back to what i said earlier about. our people our people are great ryan. morty star is great bobby telford is. great. bobby telford took over for a guy named. ben burhau who is great. um our medical team is great dr. westerman dr wolff. jesse donovarth our athletic trainer is. great. terry brands is great mariah stickley. and and elise owens our managers are. great my daughter's a manager as well.

it's great. um they're they're hard-working young. women our hawkeye wrestling club is is. where it needs to be in terms of how. they help. in their role and now we have four women. in there. and that's great. and. you know at least one of their dads is. super involved with us but. um and so it's. one thing that i've learned is that you. have to have that. and if you don't have that then you have.

to address it quickly. and those outliers you know let's solve. that problem let's get it out in the. open here right and if there you know if. it doesn't work out it's not going to. work out. that's a heck of a thanksgiving dinner. yeah next year well i don't know if it'd. be legal but i'd have to check with our. compliance and. you know they'd have to vet you. you can come you can come and see what. it's all about this room is full. oh man well yeah i'll be back next year.

then all right awesome. last question in 2014 i watched this. video. four years ago. uh. of you competing. in i believe your first swim meet. against your brother terry. uh and you came out victorious. not really. okay so let's i wonder. here's what happened. i had researched this thing because i'm. that's how i am you practice no i didn't.

but i researched it in swimming if you. flinch on that starter block. it's a false start you can't twitch a. finger. and because they would be doing that to. get their buddy to move or the guy next. to him you know so you have to be. rock solid. well when we went terry was leaning. forward as the gun was going off so he's. moving. and so i was like no no no false start. no no no no and he couldn't hear me he. was already in the water and so he took. off like a bat out of you nowhere. for the end of the pool and couldn't.

hear me and got to the end of the pool. and it was a down and back. well that's a hard thing to do with a. guy with no body fat and so he burned a. lot of energy and he come up on that end. of the pool and he was like where's. where's he actually didn't see me. and so we stopped him and then he came. back and then we went another one and i. beat him. but it's the only time that. you know i wouldn't say that he was. tuckered out and that's a reason why. and i'll also say this we did a time. where we timed my race.

the one i won. and then we timed his first down to the. wall. and then we timed his the actual race. where once he hit the wall we timed him. on the way back and he beat me. now how's that for being a that's pretty. honest that's pretty honest accountable. wow person. and i'm gonna tell you something else. getting in those shorts those swim. trunks that's impressive they are tight. yeah. so is there. is outside of wrestling is there uh.

a thing that terry got the better of you. i mean i guess this could count as one. uh that you're still really bitter about. that you need to avenge. i mean that's past i mean we he's got an. uno title we have uno. world championships he's got a uno title. i have i have yet to have one morning. star has two titles that's unprecedented. so there's only four trophies out there. and terry's got one of those and i don't. have one yet yeah well it's still time.

tom thank you so much for letting a. russian with a tie into your home. thanks for listening to this. conversation with tom brands to support. this podcast please check out our. sponsors in the description. and now let me leave you with some words. from marcus aurelius. the art of living is more like wrestling. than dancing. thank you for listening and hope to see. you next time.