Simone Giertz: Queen of Sh*tty Robots, Innovative Engineering, and Design | Lex Fridman Podcast #372

- It's a machine, it was my friend Daniel Beauchamp and I, we had. this long running joke about a proud parent machine. that you could give a quarter, and it pats you on the shoulder, and says, "Proud of you.". - [Lex] Yeah. - So yeah, I still have that hanging on my wall. in my workshop. So that one, I'm really happy with. I just think it's a really funny concept, and also I executed the build well. - [Lex] So it's an arm? - [Simone] Hm-mm. - [Lex] What's the build? - [Simone] I built it off of an old lamp arm. Yeah, basically, it's just a motorized arm, and this kind of torso of a person.

- [Lex] Was this, so it's actually a hand, right? - [Simone] It's just laser cut plywood, and it kinda has like, it looks creepy. - [Lex] Yeah. - And yeah, it's says "Proud of you, son.". Because I just thought that sounded more funny. than "Proud of you, daughter,". and also, "Proud of you, son," just, it immediately communicates that it's a parent. It's not just like a colleague or something. He's like, "Proud of you.". - (laughs) Yeah. - [Simone] And it charges you a quarter for it. - Yeah, but you add like ChatGPT on top of that,

and fine tune it on conversations you've had. with your parents, and all of a sudden, you have a thing that can fundamentally. transform your psyche. - [Simone] Yeah. - The following is a conversation. with Simone Giertz, and an inventor, designer, engineer, and roboticist famous for a combination of humor. and brilliant creative design in the systems. and products she creates, including, as part of her new product design company called. Yetch, she has a popular YouTube channel,

where she has demonstrated a lot of her incredible. and fun designs and inventions from quote, "shitty robots,". to a Tesla Model 3 converted into a truck, but where she also revealed her personal journey, after having been diagnosed with a brain tumor. Simone is a brilliant, fun, and inspiring human being. It was truly an honor for me to get to meet her, and to have this chat. This is a Lex Fridman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors.

in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Simone Giertz. What was the first cool thing you built, where you fell in love with the process of making stuff? - You know, I think, in the beginning of building stuff, you run into the limitations of your skills so much. So I feel like honestly, building gets less and less frustrating, or I love it more and more, the more I know. - So all the limitations aren't fun? Like when it's- - The limitations are fun, but it's like when you have an idea of something. and you wanna make it a certain level,

and then you just have to compromise. with the materials and the tools and the skills you have. So I can't remember first time where I felt like-. - [Lex] I'm proud of this. - Wow, this was so smooth, I'm so proud of it. I feel like a lot of people, I watch them build stuff, and it's just like watching water pour down, it's just so easy, and for me, it's just like trying to shove a toy car into a wall.

- So you're not able to step back and marvel. at the early creations, even like, we're not even talking the Arduino stuff, even before then. - I'm from Sweden, and you have to choose either sewing. or woodworking, and I chose woodworking in middle school, and I remember the sense of pride when I got. to bring something home and that thing of like, oh my God, I get to show my parents this. And I think that is kind of the feeling that I've built. my job around.

It's the sense of pride, and wanting to show people something that I made, and back then, it was a little wooden spoon, and now, it's a slightly larger wooden spoon. - Wood spoon. Yeah. That is dynamic, and moves, and has a mind of its own. You first started doing more engineering type-stuff. with Arduino boards. at Punch Through Design, which is an SF engineering firm. What are, just from your memory there, what are some cool things you built there? - So the thing is, I went to advertising school,

and I just, like a vocational study's a year, and I realized there that I didn't care much. for advertising, but I thought it was really fun. to build stuff and program, so I just completely focused on that, and there I built my first hardware project. or electronics project, which was this iPhone case. with retractable guitar strings. - [Lex] Yeah, yeah. - So basically, I imagined that you could pull. out guitar strings from the bottom of your iPhone, and you could pluck it to your belt,

and then you could hold a chord on the screen. And I built that together with my friend Jonathan. And I was like, oh, this is dope. I thought it was so much fun, and I considered, oh, should I go to school for this? But then I thought, hmm, maybe I can get a job, and I could get paid to learn about electronics. So, just based off of that one project, I got the job at Punch Through Design, where actually, it was a one-year internship. - Can you explain what we're talking about here?

So it's a case. - [Simone] Hm-mm. - With guitar strings attached to it. - [Simone] Yeah. - Does it actually work at all? - It does. - These are not on the screen guitar strings? - No, so they're actual strings that you pull out. So there's a mechanism that's almost like. a seatbelt mechanism and, yeah, you pull them. out from the bottom of your phone, and you can attach them to your belt. I mean, it's terrible. There's a few different ways to decide.

if somebody's touching a guitar string. And what you do in a real guitar is, you have the little, it's like measuring the vibration or the change in the, yeah, you're measuring how the guitar is vibrating, and you can't really do that, because I can't have a receiving sensor, because the guitar strings are gonna move. in relationship to that because you don't have. this rigid neck. And this is, yeah, this was my first electronics project. I was a little fledging baby maker, but what I decided was to use capacitive touch,

'cause that is independent on if the guitar strings. are moving in relationship to something, or in relation to something. So basically, there was just this little. Bluetooth Arduino board that this company, Punched Through Design made, so that was how I found them. And I measured the capacitive touch. So like whenever the guitar string was measured, there was this little microcontroller that was like, oh my god, a guitar string got measured, or it touched, and then that sent a signal over Bluetooth to my phone,

and I'd built a little iPhone app that interpreted. those Bluetooth signals, and then checked what type. of chord I was holding on the screen, and then played the coherent sound. - So you holding the chords on the screen. - So you're doing the multi-touch sensing there. - [Simone] Hm-mm. - That's incredible. - I honestly cannot believe that I pulled it off, because I think I was, ignorance was definitely bliss, because that was like, yeah, the first hardware project I'd ever built,

the first iPhone app I'd ever programmed. And now, if somebody was like, "Hey, I want this to be my first project,". I would probably be like, "Oh, that's a lot,". but I pulled it off. - That's such an interesting thing for people to hear, because it's your first project, and a lot of people stop because of the difficulty. of their first project. They never truly discover their own genius, because they stop at the first, and you didn't stop. So it'd be interesting to kind of psychoanalyze.

you on the couch, of why you didn't stop. 'Cause you have to build an app. - [Simone] Yeah. - To figure out how to, did you know how to program much, or no? - [Simone] No. - Okay. - I mean a little bit, but I never programmed in or done any iOS apps. - Okay, so you have to figure out how to get, forget what the app does, just get the app running and working and then you have. to figure out how to get the sensors in real time, the finger touching, and you have to connect. how to get the capacitor touch working. with the microcontrollers. Do you know anything about the capacitor touch sensors.

at that time? - No, I mean, it's pretty easy now. It's basically- - Everything's easy. You know, rockets are pretty easy. - Hey, you sound like my grandma. She's like, I have an Italian grandma, and I'm always trying to get her, we're trying to get her to tell her recipes. and every recipe starts with, "It's very simple.". And then there's 45 minutes of her explaining it. (laughing). - It's like with gymnastics at the Olympics, they make. it look easy.

The best people in the world always make. the impossible seem easy. - I pride myself with making buildings look really hard, 'cause I feel like I'm always struggling so much. - [Lex] You make the easy seem impossible. - Yeah, yes. - [Lex] No. So how many strings was it? Was it just one? - Oh gosh, I mean this is such a long time ago. No, it was six. - Six strings, and you could touch it, and then there's, wow, and it can, and then the phone itself makes a sound? - Uh-huh, and I still think it's such a cool concept.

to have this mobile, I'm not even a guitar player. I don't know, I mean I got the idea because I was kind. of strumming on my charge cord of my phone. - Oh, like an air guitar, but on a cord? - Yeah, but I've been thinking about it 'cause I'm like, oh man, it would be really fun to go back. to that project with what I know now, but the problem with it is that when you're producing. the tension in your string just with your arm, you can't make it taut enough to actually play.

It kinda becomes playing these saggy strings. - [Lex] Yep. - So as you're not really getting that experience. And I think that's why, I mean I, yeah. I haven't really pursued it. I wonder if there's a way to generate the tightness. from the case itself, get a device that unfolds, and then, with some kind of tightening mechanisms. - Yeah, but then it kind of becomes this whole thing-. - [Lex] A guitar. - A guitar, then it just becomes a really shitty guitar. - [Lex] Yeah. - Which, this is a really shitty guitar,

but it's also not a guitar. - But it's so shitty, It's awesome. - Yeah, I don't know. - But it's cool. that you have an interface. between a device that's capable. of incredible computational power, and an actual hardware thing. Is there something that you can psychoanalyze. that made you finish, that others could hear in their own struggle to do. their first project like that? Because you were a non-engineering person, technically,

and you did a pretty cool renegade, out-there, wild, no-instructions engineering project. - No, it definitely was an off-road build, where it's like if you're building a Lego kit, it's very much on the road, and you're following instructions and this is like, you have no idea if you're headed for a cliff. or a dead end, or you're gonna get stuck. I think it had a natural pressure to it, because it was a school project.

- [Lex] Yeah. - So, it did have deadlines built into it, and stuff like that, so that definitely helped. But I think also, it was just so incredibly motivating when I realized. that I might be able to pull it off. - [Lex] Yeah. - Like that was, I felt like a bloodhound, you're just like, "Oh my God, I can actually make this happen.". And I think if I hadn't seen that at the horizon, it would've been harder to stick through. - Were you able to see the end of the tunnel.

pretty early on? - No, not really. (laughs). - So there's something to just suffering for a while. - I don't know how your brain works, but it's like, if I have a problem, I can't stop thinking about it. It's so fun to think about it. I spent two and a half years designing a coat hanger, and I just can't stop thinking about it. I get so into it, 'cause I think it's so much fun.

- Take me to this two-year journey of the coat hanger. - (laughing) The coat hanger. - [Lex] How did it begin? - How did it begin? It began with a corner in my home where I couldn't fit. a coat rack. The thing is, I shouldn't have brought this up, because I'm gonna release it as a product, probably in a year. - Oh, an actual product. - Mm-hm. - Okay, well let's view it as a mystery. - [Simone] It's a mystery, yeah. - It's what it is, it solves a fundamental problem in the human condition. - Yes, and I am so excited about it, and I cannot,

I don't think, yeah, but this is, I get so pumped about it, because I see, it's just this issue, or this problem that I wanna solve, and I can't put it to rest until I have. - Speaking of coat hangers, doorknobs have always been interesting to me. Is cool how there's things that everybody uses. that somebody designed. - [Simone] Lex. - Yeah?

- Oh my God, so, okay, so this is, so I have two big, so basically, I started on YouTube, and I have been. doing that for the last seven or eight years. And I've been thinking of, okay, what's next for me? 'Cause I wanna keep on trying out new things. And I'm kind of going into two different avenues. One is the product business that I started, coat hanger is TBD, and then I am working. on a pilot episode of a show, where each episode is about an everyday object, and why they look the way that they do.

So we've written a pilot episode about forks, and it's all about, why do they look the way that they do? - [Lex] That's awesome. - Why did this became the eating implement of the West? Why are we ruled by an iron fork? How did that happen? And everyday object that you have, and that you just take for granted, somebody's just made it up. - Yeah, we're all sheep. We all keep using it. - [Simone] Yeah. - Even if it's not, I mean, presumably most objects are optimal, you hope, or at least- - But they're not, yeah.

And that's what I think is so like the world around us, and this is why I love building things, is because it just opens up this idea. that the world around us is so malleable, and you can make objects work for you better. I spent, I made this fruit bowl, I had a fruit bowl, and I was always annoyed that I had either too little. or too much fruit for it. So I made a fruit bowl where I can change the diameter. of it, has a mechanism so you can make it bigger or smaller. And that's just the thing of being like bowls. Why are they the way that they are?

I can make them different. And I think like I wanna make an episode about doorknobs. I think it's so interesting, why are they the way they are? Why are they placed the way where they are? - I think that's gonna be a rabbit hole. from which you'll never return. - I would happily live in that rabbit hole forever. Like if I can like dig out a little niche for myself there, because I think it's like... They go so deep. - They're also on different sides of doors. You never, like the push/pull situation on doors in general?

That's one of the main problems of humanity. is figuring out- - Push/pull doors? (laughs). - [Lex] Figuring out which-. - Is embarrassing, yeah. - Okay, how many, there's 8 billion people on Earth. Every single second, there is millions of people. being embarrassed by the confusion... - Real life stats. - Right now there's somebody, some guy, first time in college, he's trying to be impressive to everybody, he pushes on it, and he plays it off like it's cool, oh, shit, I knew that,

over and over. - And it affects our behaviors. That was why I think it's so interesting with forks, is that forks actually affect our eating behaviors, and they can get you to eat faster or slower, take bigger bites or smaller bites. And they're all these ways, or like the social, I mean the reason that chopsticks work. is because they do the food chopping in the kitchen, rather than on the plate.

And also you have a bowl that you bring to your mouth, whereas a plate you keep on the, there are just all these ways. in which these objects affect our behavior, opening and closing doors. And I think it's such an interesting take on culture, and human behavior, through these objects. that we use every day, and we never question them really. - Yeah, and then there's institutions that are. controlling our mind that don't want us to know the truth. Why are sporks not more popular? Have you asked yourself that question?

- Yeah, no, it's all Big Utensil is behind all of it. (both laughing). - All right, so, in those early days, did you suffer from imposter syndrome? That leap to being an engineer? Was there, especially when you started working on parts. of the design on a team of engineers, was there insecurity? - Both yes and no. I think I always try to flip my flaws into selling.

points and for that, so getting that job, I was like, oh, you're a team of engineers. Everybody working here is an engineer. Your customers are not all engineers. You need somebody who can be your filter and tell. you when something's gonna be too hard. for your customers to understand. So it was more me being like, oh no, it might seem that me not having skills is a bad thing, but actually, it's a great thing, you need it.

- I represent the everyday person. I understand deeply what everybody needs and wants. - Yes, that is me, the representation of the average human. But I mean, I remember that, so I studied physics for a year in college and then. I dropped out, and I had this rule for myself, that whenever I did not understand something, I would ask a question. So I was always raising my hand in class, and it's this room, entire auditorium,

filled with incredibly intelligent people. who are mortified of seeming stupid. And I think that was really, and I remember people at the end of the year coming up. to me and being like, "Thank you so much for all the questions you asked, because whenever there was something that I was too. scared to ask, you always raised your hand.". So I think it is a bit of a skill, and I think that is kind of how I channel. my imposter syndrome is, I'm just like, no, let's lay it all out there. (laughs). - So you're okay being almost self-deprecating, just coming off, I mean, I'm definitely that,

I kind of lean into it, I call myself an idiot. I lean into being stupid. I think not all heroes wear capes. And the guy and girl who asks the stupid question. is everybody's hero. Including the poor teachers. - Yeah, I think it's both. It's a double-edged sword. I started out on the internet, I kind of got the moniker, the Queen of Shitty Robots because I posted a lot. of stuff on /r/shittyrobots on Reddit, and people.

started calling me the Queen of /r/shittyrobots, and then, the /r kind of dropped. So what I'm trying to say is, I did not come up with that myself, but I did happily adopt it. So I definitely came from a place of like building. things that didn't work, and kind of, yeah, everything going wrong every time. Like happily failing. And I think that was amazing. It was a really powerful tool for me to not get. my perfectionism in the way, because if I set out to do something that's great,

then I'm never gonna start. And I was like, no, I just need something that looks funny. But what I've realized now is that it was also. a defense mechanism. Being self-deprecating is always beating people. to the punch. It kind of was a survival tactic on the internet, of being never daring to set out as an expert. And I still do that, I'm terrified to tell people how to do something,

even if I know, because it opens you up for being shot down, so I think I definitely have a conflicted. relationship with it. And now especially, as I'm getting older, I am more skilled than I was before, I mean I'm a CEO of three businesses, and I'm like, I don't need to keep on talking myself down all the time. So yeah, I think it's definitely something that has. served me really, really well, and that is still a thing that I have in my work life.

and in my relationships, but I'm also trying to only do it when it's beneficial. to me and not when it's harmful. - Yeah, but when you're as successful as you are, I feel like people like it. when you're self-deprecating and you don't. take yourself seriously. You have that humility. - Yeah. - I think it's probably the hardest. when you're starting out. - Yeah? No, I think it was easier then, almost. I dunno. - But nobody takes you seriously, right? When you're starting out, when you're young.

- You know, I just realized that I played a lot. more stupid than I was. And I think it's also, oh gosh, I can't believe I'm the one bringing this up, but being a woman in a male-dominated field, and you're like, I was just trying to make myself. the least amount threatening or really unthreatening, because people are threatened by you in different ways, and it's like, you have such a thin line that you can.

walk where you're like, okay, I need to be just attractive enough for people to not. be offended by my appearance, but just unattractive enough for people. to not sexualize me. I have to be just smart and witty enough for people. to be like, "Oh my god, that's really cool.". But also shoot myself down enough for other people not. to be able to do it or be like, oh yeah, watch this woman try, thinking that she knows how to build electronics. So it's like... - That's an interesting skill to build, especially when you put yourself out there on the internet.

- [Simone] Yeah. - Unfortunately, that's the reality of the internet, and it's a skill you have to develop, and it's actually why a lot of really brilliant. people avoid the internet. - [Simone] Yeah. - There's not many people, like at MIT for example, there's not many brilliant professors or PhD students. and so on, just putting their stuff out there, because if they. really put their heart and soul. into a thing, first of all, that's really hard, and nobody sees it, and then everyone's like,

"Eh, this is boring.". So there's so many failure modes like, "This is boring.". Or, like, like you said, you're coming off as too much of an expert, you're not self-deprecating enough. or there's just so many failure modes. and it's terrifying for people. But I feel like that's a skill you should learn, because most people, like at MIT, at university, and so on, are doing a lot of awesome stuff. - [Simone] Yeah. - And they should show it off. But I feel like. you figured out a really good process of showing it off,

of when you fail, when you succeed, all of it. Not taking yourself too seriously, but also revealing through the humor. and the self-deprecation a kind of genius, a kind of intelligence and curiosity. - Okay, I just wanna snapshot that quote, and put it on my LinkedIn, and the back of my book. - [Lex] When is your autobiography coming out? - Oh, never. (laughs). - You don't wanna say that, because a year from now. - Oh God, I don't wanna shit on autobiographies.

- Yeah. - No. But even, just by saying that, I'm on shitting on autobiographies. I just, me being interested enough in somebody. to wanna read 600 pages about them talking. about themselves, it's a... - No, well, (laughing) that's exactly the kind of person. that should write one. - But also I'm fucking 32 years old, what do I have to write about? I went through puberty, I lost my virginity, and here we are, I dunno, it's such a... (laughs). - Three chapters, it's a coloring book (laughing).

- Chapter seven, I learn to tie my own shoelaces. - I feel like it would be awesome. Anyway, what's the Queen? So how did you achieve the status of royalty? The Queen of Shitty Robots? What's the origin story there? - I have officially renounced my title now. - Can you still speak of the time when you-. - I can still speak of the time. - [Lex] Your kingdom? - Yes. No, I mean it started on because I-. - Did you rule by love or fear? - By fear of rejection, from me,

that people would reject me. So I, yeah, I started making these little gifs. The early projects that I did were very gif-forward. It was always like, I only did it because they could be translated into a gif. - Gif-forward. I like it. - Yeah, but honestly it was like, it's a really good mental exercise, to vet if your project is easy enough to be explained. by a seven-second looping video without audio,

and because nobody's gonna care that it also has Bluetooth. It's really like, is it self-explanatory enough. to be explained through a gif, so yeah. - Could I just pause, I'm sorry to interrupt but-. - [Simone] No, go for it. - I feel like all scientific papers and projects should. go through that exercise. - Can it be explained as a gif? - Yeah, actually, Deepmind does a good job of this. Like, we saw a protein folding, here's a gif, that's literally what they do.

- [Simone] Yeah. - Because who's gonna read the Nature paper? So, you have to like, how do we communicate this visually, in a sexy, clean way, where people can intuitively understand, even if you don't know what a protein is, even if you don't know what protein folding is, yeah. It's a cool exercise. - No, it's very like, yeah, if somebody comes outta context, and that's been really interesting, also, building this product business and trying to do. the marketing around that. And I'm like, if somebody comes in, and they have no idea about what this product is,

will they get it explained to them in this ad? And I don't know, but it's definitely a worthwhile exercise to do. So I started making these projects that got. translated into gifs, and I posted them. on /r/shittyrobots on Reddit. - So that subReddit existed? - Yeah, and I loved it. I thought it was really fun and I was like, I wanna contribute with content here. - [Lex] Conquer it. - I don't, I mean, I don't know. I was voted, I think I was voted top user of 2015.

So yeah, that's an old merit. - Once you win a Nobel Prize, you always have. the Nobel Prize. - (laughing) Yeah. - Okay, so what was the first, do you remember the early gifs that you created? - So this is when I was. at Punch Through Design in San Francisco, I was building. a lot of hardware projects for them. But I also felt, and they were so supportive of me, but I also, it's such a different way, representing a brand versus representing yourself. So there were some projects that I just ruled out, 'cause I was like, this feels too weird for this brand.

And I started building them on the side. One of them was a toothbrush helmet, and yeah, so it's like a skateboard helmet with a robot arm. on the forehead, kind of like a unicorn horn, and it brushes your teeth for you. - Was that the first YouTube video you uploaded? - It was the first gif that I uploaded. So actually, I wanted to... I wanted to do a kids' show about electronics. in Sweden, 'cause I was like, I love electronics, I think it's fucking dope. I could do a kids' show about it.

So I filmed this terrible, terrible pilot episode. in my bedroom. in San Francisco, and that's when I built. the toothbrush helmet and I emailed it to them, I mean just cold email, I had no in or anything, but I was like, "Hey, I wanna do this,". and they didn't get back to me, nobody surprised, and I was like, well I have this thing I built, I might as well post it on the internet. So that's why I made the little gif, and I posted it on /r/shittyrobots.

I think it got like 50,000 views, and I was like, wow. And from there, I just kept on building things, and I think within six months, it was my full-time job. - Can you go through the detailed design. of this toothbrush helmet? So it's a motor, it's like a servo, what's the motor? Is an Arduino involved? - Yeah. So I built it off of this robot arm called MeArm. So it's just this acrylic robot arm,

and I think it has three servomotors, and it's all controlled by an Arduino, all the electronics. - The arm's already prebuilt? - It was a kit, so I assembled it. - How do you make sure the length of the arm is the proper? - I mean the arm came down so it's like, I mean I just programmed it to come down to my mouth, and then poorly brush my front teeth. - Yeah. - [Simone] Yeah. - And it was just swung back and forth, I mean... - Trial and error, is how I did that.

- What was the challenges of that, do you remember? - [Simone] Oh gosh. - Or was that one not much of a struggle? - No, it was definitely a struggle. - [Lex] Because also, how do you loop it with a nice gif? - I mean, it loops. It loops fine. - Yeah, it loops pretty fine. That's not that hard? - No, I mean it doesn't have to be perfect. It's a gif, it's the internet. Things are shitty all the time. I think the biggest struggle of that was that I had. this intention for it to be the show, and then them not giving back.

And I was like, well, if they don't want it, then maybe YouTube will have me. - They don't notice my genius yet. - [Simone] Yep. - What was so bad about the pilot, do you remember? What's the most embarrassing? - It's so cringey. Yeah, I mean it's thankfully not on the internet, so nobody can find it. But it's very much me being in what I called host mode, which is where I'm like, "Okay, so what we're gonna learn today is that, we're gonna look at this is something called a servomotor,". and the intonation and everything is really different.

And I'm actually, I mean thinking back on that, I'm so happy that they didn't get back to me, because it's such a different thing to start. your career in your living room, running back and forth to the camera and filming. something and then looking at it, and I got to really find my own voice in a different way. And then a year later, they offered me a show, but then I was so off and running, I was like,

no, I don't wanna do this. - You didn't fall into that place of being a actor, like a YouTuber, where you're presenting a kind of personality. You're more focused on the product you're creating. - I mean, I think it's a combination of it. I think of it as acting sometimes, but I only play the role of myself. But of course it's like when you're shooting something. for the seventh time, like you have to be able to muster that enthusiasm.

But no, it's not a kind of, think of everyday life me as a watered-down version. of the YouTube version. It's like- - It's a cheap knockoff? - Yeah, (laughing) the wish.com version. No, it's just like, add a few parts water, and you have me. But on YouTube, it's just so condensed, 'cause you have jump cuts, and yeah, I'll script jokes and make sure that everything lands, and there's music and stuff, and then in real life, you don't have any of that. But it's still me. - What are some other cool robots in the early days.

that stand out to you? I mean there's a million we can go through, but what, maybe, what was a challenging one? Like a really challenging one, in the early days? - I mean I remember the breakfast robot, which was my second project, was a challenging one, so... - Was it eating cereal? - Yeah, it's a robot that pours milk and cereal, and feeds me with a spoon. It was mostly challenging because it was so, everything had to be in the right location,

and there were so many takes before I got everything right. And by right, I mean it makes an absolute mess. Yeah, that one was challenging. - [Lex] How many takes was that one? - I don't know, probably 12, 10 something. - [Lex] Just a mess everywhere. - It was a mess, and also, I used Cheerios for the cereals, and it's shot in my old bedroom. in San Francisco, and the floors were sticky. for weeks afterwards. - See, this could go into your autobiography. - [Simone] (laughing) Yeah.

- It's nice. - We can just type out this podcast. - [Lex] Make a transcript. - And I'll release it, my manager would be stoked. - We'll fix it in post. Yeah, the feed, 'cause you have a couple of feeding ones, right? There's soup, isn't there a soup one? - Yeah, there's a soup robot. There's a beer-pouring robot. - I mean, that's awesome. That's a difficult robotics problem, in the shitty and the perfect version, of having an arm that interacts intimately.

with a human being. And one of the most intimate things you can do. with a human being that's PG is to feed it. - That's what I was thinking, (laughing) don't go there. - [Lex] Where is he going with this? - Oh my God, he's a YouTube comic come live. Like, dammit. - So, to me there's a, feeding is tricky, or even like getting a beer, even pouring a beer, is tough, into a glass. - Yeah, it's trickier than anyone who hasn't tried it thinks. And even making it,

I think what I realized is that making things. really shitty, or failing in a spectacular way is also. its own sort of skill, because, the shittiest robot is the one that doesn't turn on, but that isn't much to watch. So it was always wanting for it to fail in these kind. of spectacular ways. No, there's a lot of stuff to be said. about engineering in it. - Is there something to be said on a philosophical. level about the value of a flawed robot?

So like... The kind of robots you want is to be partially flawed? Do you think the kind of robots we'll have in the home, that are friends and, you know, almost like pets, wouldn't they need to be kind of shitty, because we can love, somehow we humans love the shitty. - I mean it's kind of endearing, and 'cause I think it kind of, I'm gonna mess up this word, anthropomorphizes them.

I mean, I never feel as deeply connected. to my Roomba as when it's like, "I'm on a cliff.". I'm like... - Have you had Roombas talk- - This tiny ledge. - No. - I really, yeah, I've done that a lot. - Yeah? - When they talk to you. Yeah. And you immediately anthropomorphize them. - Yeah. - [Simone] And then you have, if they have a name, which is why most roboticists don't give names. or gender to robots. 'Cause you become connected to them. I'm of the opposite mind.

You should have like, an intimate relationship sounds weird, but you should have a close connection to robots. I mean there's power in that. There's a social element of robotics, even an arm. I don't know, there's something about us humans. that gains so much value from our interaction. with dynamic objects and we should like lean. into that as opposed to run away from it. That was always the confusing thing to me. about robotics is that most roboticists run away from that.

- Yeah. - It's weird, 'cause it's obviously gonna be, robots are obviously gonna be everywhere. - Yeah. - Obviously. - But it's also humans are sensitive and squishy. and there's so much liability. - Oh. - Yeah. - Yeah. But humans are sensitive and squishy. when they interact with each other and they hurt. each other all the time. Like sometimes they get together and they're like, oh you're the best, no you're the best. And then they leave each other and then they break. each other's heart. - Sorry about your breakup, Lex.

- Yeah, I'm just trying to get over this. I'm actually drunk for this interview. (laughs) Haven't been able to sleep-. - Have you slept all night? - But from a safety protocol perspective, people think about like physical damage, not emotional damage. I know this sounds ridiculous, I know this sounds ridiculous, but it won't be. It's already happening. There's an app called Replica where people have. an intimate relationship with an AI chat bot. and they hurt themselves. - I was thinking about this. - Yeah. - Okay. In dating...

What if you, 'cause you can drain like a chat bot. to kinda mimic the way that you talk to people. and interact with people. - Go on. - Yeah. But then I'm like, okay, but what if we could all make AI versions of ourselves. and have them date... - Yeah. - Like thousands. of thousands of other AI people. and have that as a way to turn out potential candidates. Like I feel like that's gonna be, what's the...

Yeah. - What's the, what? - No, but what's the point of like meeting 20 people. if you're like, oh, but if we just had our AI versions of ourselves interact, they'd be like, oh, your method of conflict is not gonna match. Or... - What if the AI version of you like sleeps around. with all the other AI and it becomes famous. for that and it starts this on OnlyFans and then. it become, and you're like, what did you do? You come back home you'd realize like, I don't, I didn't want any, I... - Created a monster? - Created a monster.

- I mean, do I get a cut? - Exactly. That's the question I'd be asking. - But I think it's definitely like, yeah the human technology interaction. is really interesting because I feel like I don't love. any of the machines that I have in my life. - [Lex] Oh really? You haven't... - I mean, I don't love my phone. I touch it all the time. and it's there and it's like constantly, it's a constant presence, but there's nothing than me that feels like, oh, I love this object. Like I kind of despise it. - Well, that might be the way you show love. I don't know.

Yeah. That's a deeper, that's another psychoanalysis thing. So you don't, there's not robots whom you've taken. apart that you miss? - No, they're all terrible. I mean I have objects that I built that I love, none of the robots I think. But that's also because there was a different, that was a different era where I wasn't really putting. a lot of care into the projects I built. - So the more care you put into it, into the design to actually make it look, to make it functional and look good,

that's where you put the love in. - Yeah. I mean it is, it's like I feel like any technology company. that figures out a way to get you to actually. genuinely love your Roomba or like love it in the way. that you would love a pet has a lot to be gained. - Yeah. And I think it's scary, depending on who the company is, because then they can manipulate you. - Yeah. - If you love your Roomba. and all of a sudden. your Roomba starts telling you to buy stuff...

- Yeah. - Or it's leaving. - To put lotion on Jeff Bezos's head. - Yeah. I don't know where the lotion came in, but yes. Maybe buy certain- - I just... I just imagine my Amazon Echo being like, "Hey...". - Hey. - Jeff Bezos, he is really a great guy. - (laughs) But even though you haven't, do you think it's possible to fall in love with a robot? - Yeah. I mean people fall in love with things all the time. - Well people have fallen in love. with your shitty robots, probably.

I guarantee you there's people listening. to this that are a little bit heartbroken saying. that you've never fallen in love with your shitty robot. They're like, but I had a relationship. Like I have an emotional connection to that robot. Like the one with a parent, pats you on the back. - Oh, that one. That one I do like. I like that one a lot. That's probably my favorite, like, shitty robot. - Can you explain it? - So it's a machine, it was my friend Daniel Beauchamp and I, we had. this long running joke about a proud parent machine. that you could give a quarter,

and it pats you on the shoulder, and says, "Proud of you.". - [Lex] Yeah. - So yeah, I still have that hanging on my wall. in my workshop. So that one, I'm really happy with. I just think it's a really funny concept, and also I executed the build well. - So it's an arm? - Hm-mm. - What's the build? - I built it off of an old lamp arm. Yeah, basically, it's just a motorized arm, and this torso of a person.

- Was this, so it's actually a hand, right? - It's just laser cut plywood, and it kinda has like, it looks creepy. - Yeah. - Which I like. - Yeah. The creepy helps with the... - And yeah, it's says "Proud of you, son.". Because I just thought that sounded more funny. than "Proud of you, daughter,". and also, "Proud of you, son," just, it immediately communicates that it's a parent. It's not just like a colleague or something. He's like, "Proud of you.". - (laughs) Yeah.

- [Simone] And it charges you a quarter for it. - Yeah, but you add like ChatGPT on top of that, and fine tune it on conversations you've had. with your parents, and all of a sudden, you have a thing that can fundamentally. transform your psyche. - Yeah. - That's all it takes. That's a beautiful creation. How'd you come up with that creation? - Oh it was my friend Daniel and I who had. a long-running joke about it. - High level, can you speak to your creative process? - I think a lot of it, I mean it's changed... - [Lex] For the shitty robots. That's actually-. - For the shitty robot. Yeah.

I mean it has a lot of overlap, so it's identifying everyday problems. and in the shitty robot era I would kind of take. an everyday problem like oh I have a hard time getting. up in the morning and I would solve. it in the most ridiculous, spectacular way I could think of. So if we're waking up in the morning, it was having an alarm clock that slaps me. in the face with a rubber hand. And what I'm doing now is still identifying. everyday problems, but I'm actually trying. to like product design my way out of it.

- What in your experience was the funniest thing? Is it violence? Like the hand slapping you? Food eating? Is there is, or is it just case dependent? - I think the funniest is... No, I think it's more like the proud parent machine. It's not violent. It doesn't, yeah, there's no nothing. It's just emotional and it's kind of a commentary. on this fraught relationship that we sometimes have. with our parents and they're proud of us. - Sometimes? Every time. - Sometimes.

My dad visited like last week and he was like, "I just wanna say I'm so proud of you and for the life. you've built for yourself.". And that was really sweet. - Yeah. Really good. - I'll put that on the back of my autobiography too. - Yeah, it's not your fault, Simone. It's not your fault. - Some stuff is my fault. - What was the longest one to complete. for the shitty robots that you remember? 'Cause you spent on a few of them, you spent quite a long time. - [Simone] Mm-hm.

- Which is also inspiring when you take so long. on a project. - Yeah, I think kind of in the more like fun. whimsical department rather than shitty robots. I built recently this music box. So like a small music box that kind of has a barrel. with little spikes and it plays a song. But I did a large version of that that pops a sheet. of bubble wrap and then like plays tones into a pan flute. So yeah, you can actually program it. to play different songs. That one kicked my butt in so many creative ways. and it was such a pain.

I think that is probably the like weird funny. project that's taken me the longest and like. the biggest engineering effort. - [Lex] Where's the sound coming from? - So if you, it all came from me realizing that if you pop bubble. wrap and you pop it right in front of the opening. of a pan flute or like one of the pipes you can have. it play different tones. So that's what it does. So I built this music instrument off of that. - Okay.

If it's okay, can you describe some something like. how it works, some of the technical details here? - Yeah. - It's fascinating. - So basically, I mean one of the big issues that I had, so I worked with as of a year and a half back, I hired an engineer, Stu, So we were collaborating on it. But a big issue that we had was feeding in the bubble. wrap sheet and like making sure that it feeds. in straight and doesn't get skewed because you need. to make like the popping feet,

which is where you program this barrel to pop. different bubbles need to be so perfectly aligned. on the bubble of the bubble wrap for it to pop. in the right location. - So there's a feeder for the bubble wrap. That's a challenge. And then you have to have a barrel with the little. baby feet on it. - Yeah. - That pops the bubble wrap. Why is it so exciting? - That barrel was a pain. - Yeah. - As well. I had to get a, like this rotary set up for my CNC and yeah, it was a lot of work,

but that was really fun and it's just like, this is probably my favorite privilege of my job. is that I can go down any rabbit hole. I think find interesting. - Did you have a lot of joy from popping the... - Yeah. That's- - The bubbles. - That's a lot of self soothing, and like I got to spend, I think I spent a week trying to figure. out the best material to pop bubble wrap with, because if you have two,

if you kind of put them two through or through, if you put a sheet of bubble wrap through two rigid tubes, the air kind of just escapes from one side. of the bubble into the other. So what I realized was that if you have a squishy material, like kind of a yoga mat material in between it, it actually, it prevents that and pops it a lot more reliably. But like increasing the pop reliability was a huge. effort as well. - You have to pop a squishy thing. with another squishy thing. - Because you don't need a lot of force.

- Yeah. - Like you just need. it to not, air to not be able to escape anywhere. - Wow. - But then also we had, there was different qualities of bubble wrap. where there was a lot of transference. between different bubbles. So instead of the bubble popping, it would just seep the air into a neighboring bubble. and that like membrane would kind of, so, you know, I just, like getting to spend weeks on weeks. of just studying bubble wrap. - Did you ever think about like publishing academic. work on bubble wrap? - No. - Wouldn't that be epic?

'Cause nobody's done this. I bet you nobody's done squishing, Squishy versus squishy for popping. - I bet somebody has. But you know, I always, I thought I was gonna go into academia. Like I was such an ambitious student. I loved school. I actually applied to MIT but then I pulled. out 'cause I was like, no, I don't wanna do it. But now I realize it's really good that I didn't. because I'm too much of a spaz.

- Too much of a spaz? Now I'm distracted. I'm thinking, there must be papers about when you have. two bubbles, yeah. You need to know the physics of two bubble, when you have two bubbles colliding, one will pop first and there has to be good models of that. But that has to do with chemistry. and whatever the material the bubble was made from. But then, no, there's materials in here. Somebody must understand bubble wrap deeply. Like deeply.

- So I'm just gonna take a quick restroom break. because Lex is on his own train now. And I'm just gonna leave you to talk about bubble. Yeah. Actually don't need to go to the restroom. (laughs). - I'm gonna insert like a two hour instructional here. with like a blackboard where I... - It's the skill of a podcaster. I feel like I could throw you any topic. and you could just go on about it. - I don't know if I have that skill. I just... I love bubble wrap. (laughs).

Okay. - Bubble on bubble interaction. Go. - So you did mention MIT, you went to college. for physics for one year and you dropped out. What do you learn from that? Who do you think should and shouldn't go to college? - Hmm. I think first of all, you shouldn't listen to me. - That should be the name of your autobiography. - First of all, you shouldn't listen to me. I, you know, I realized that I was. there for the wrong reasons.

I had this deep, I got completely, like starting to get grades in school, which in Sweden at that time we started getting. it at 8th grade, so when I was 14, it just kind of hijacked. my brain because I realized that I could put a number. on how smart I was and I got obsessed with it. And I wanted to study mechanical engineering. because I was like, I like machines. But then physics was kind of the hardest thing.

you could do when I had this like deep need to prove. to myself that I was smart. So I started studying physics, realized I wasn't that smart. I realized, or I mean just mostly that I like, I love math but I don't love math 10 hours a day. - [Lex] Yeah. - And also I think I am a generalist through and through. Like I'm decent at a fair amount of things, but definitely not a specialist in any ways.

And this, it was such a specialist type of area. that I felt like the other parts of my brain kind. of just dwindled and died. So I think most of all, if people are thinking about going to college. and especially if you're here. in the States and it's so fucking expensive, really... Okay, there's two things I wanna do. One is like actually go to a workplace where people. are doing the job that you think you wanna do.

If you wanna become a doctor, like be at a hospital and like try to see how doctors. work and if you actually like it, because I feel like people have a lot of ideas. of what it's gonna be like and it just doesn't. match with reality. And then I think when people figure out what they wanna do, there's kind of, that's two separate questions. or there's two questions that you could split out of that. One is like what do you actually wanna do? That for me for the last 10 years is building stuff. But then there's a second part to that question,

which is what context do you wanna do that? Do you wanna build stuff at a startup. or at a big corporation? Do you wanna build stuff for an art gallery. or for the movies or for YouTube? And I think that's often like people only learn. how to answer the first question, but then it's like the context means as much. Because I was building stuff. at Punch Through Design and I wasn't getting. that like deep fulfillment. Like I felt like I wasn't fully using myself.

and like hitting all of my gears. because I just wasn't that motivated about building. stuff for other people. And I changed the context and everything changed. - And so sometimes you do need to consider resume. and stuff like that, depending on the, but some, I think people consider that way too much, especially in modern times. I feel like you don't need to go to college. just for the resume. I feel like the biggest benefit of college, I mean there's a bunch, but one is just to do hard things.

But you could do hard things anywhere. But some people need to be, I was probably one of those people, to be forced to do hard things. And the other is to meet fascinating humans. from all walks of life that are pursuing, that have all kinds of different passions and allows. you to learn, depending on the major, you can learn generally and you can search, if you're doing it efficiently, about what actually inspires you. And the other thing is the resume thing.

- [Simone] Yeah. - But ultimately you don't need college to find. your passion to run with it. - I mean I have so much college FOMO though. Like I think it's, I chose a different set of experiences. and when I applied to MIT I was, I think I was 24, 'cause I was like, oh, maybe I should become an electrical engineer. because I really liked electronics. But then I remember seeing that the average age was 18.

and I was like, oh fuck no, I can't hang out, or like be in a room filled with 18 year olds. who are smarter than me. - Yeah. - So I think I definitely like missed the train. on having that experience. But at the same time I did so many other things. and I chose other experiences and I wouldn't trade them. But I still like, I mean I'll go to on a campus and I'll be like, oh... - [Lex] Yeah. - But I think it's also because I have a dreamy idea. of what it is because I never had to do. it and practice fully.

- Exactly. It's the FOMO. - Yeah. - Huh. Yeah. A lot of people really struggle with that burden. They'll go, it doesn't matter how long you go through, if you don't go all the way to the PhD, a lot of people have the FOMO. It doesn't, it's a silly, silly, silly little notion I think 'cause I think you should. be doing college or school until you find something. that lights your heart aflame, where you're like, fuck yes,

I wanna do this. - Yeah. - And run with it. - I mean you can find that in other contexts as well. I've I found it. - Yeah. Exactly. - Yeah. But it is a buffet of experiences that you can have. - What about what was the most fun robot to make. or musical artistic creation, where the process was the most fun? - Oh, they're all painful in different ways. - So pain. - Yeah. - Do you find pain fun? - No, but it definitely,

the pride of me getting to pull. something off or like managing to pull something off. even when it was really difficult is very satisfying. - What was the difficult thing that you pulled off? You were like, yeah, this is cool. - Mm... I like working on jigsaw puzzles, but I don't like how much table space they take up. because I like just have one big table where I can do it. And that's also my dining table. So I made this mechanical table where you can. switch between two tabletops and that was.

an incredibly painful project and I'm really happy. with the outcome and like so proud that I managed. to pull it off. - How does this switch tabletops? - It's tambour mechanism. So like tambour, like you'll have on like old. record player, like it's these like thin slats. of wood with fabric on the back and you can kind. of get them to go around curves. So basically one of the tabletops or table surfaces. is tambour and then there's a little crank. and you can kind of roll it off to the side. and it reveals another tabletop under it that you can. then lift up 'cause it's on cams,

so you can switch between the two. I think that one was both really difficult to pull off. and it's also one of few projects that I use. in my every day life. Like I use it almost every day. - You know what a really cool one was that, that was part of your TED talk, where there's a rotating thing that you wear. on your shoulders. Was that hard to make? So for people who haven't seen your TED talk. They should of course. But it's how you describe-. - [Simone] Oh, they cut out the best joke.

- You put, how would you call that device? Sorry I have. - I don't even know. I never used it beyond the TED talk, really. Yeah. But basically it's the shoulder rig and it has this like, almost like Saturn ring looking platform that goes around. I can't even remember what the problem proposition. was that I was trying to solve. - Variety, probably, introduce variety into your life? - [Simone] Yeah, maybe. - And the in an element of surprise because you can. put popcorn as you did on it and it goes around. as a little hand.

Why is the like a tiny hand funny? I don't know, but it just slams whatever. is on that finger into your face. - Yeah. I don't know. - Was that easy to make? - Yeah, that one was fine. I can't, there was, I mean my TED talk was so, yeah, for one, once again they cut out my best joke. - [Lex] What was the best joke? - My best joke. And they didn't even ask me about it. It was, so there's this whole lead up where I built. a chopping machine.

So it's a machine that chops vegetables and it has. two giant knives and it goes dun-dun-dun. and it's kind of terrifying. And I show a video of it and then it ends on this gif. of it chopping up a banana and I'm kind of scrunching. up my face being like, ugh, ugh. - [Lex] Yeah. - And the whole reason I show that project. is because I'm leading it up to the punchline of, oh, and as a bonus, this gif right here is the perfect response if anyone. ever sends you dick pics you don't want, which brought down the house, it does it every time.

And they cut it out without asking me. 'Cause they were like, oh, but we wanted people to be able to show it in classrooms. And I was like, I have abandoned the hope of being shown. in classrooms for... Years ago. - I think that's a good joke. - Thank you. Thank you. - That's a really good one. - Yeah. - So you're okay going sometimes a little bit edgy? - I mean, I say that I'm crude and wholesome... Because I can be very crude, but I also try really, really hard to be a good person. - [Lex] Yeah.

- And to like, I'll say shit and fuck and all that stuff, which I don't even think is crude. But, yeah. But I really, really try to wield the power that I have. in a thoughtful way. So no, I wouldn't call me edgy because I'm not, I don't think it's edgy. It's all like-. - Chopping a banana with knives and saying it's a good. gif response to anyone that sends you dick pics. is definitely not edgy. You're correct. Yeah.

- I think it's funny. It's a funny joke. - Yeah, it's pretty funny. - Yeah. - I feel bad that TED cut that. - I mean it's fine. It's like, it's a decision that I made really early. on where I was like, I think often people misinterpret. what I'm doing as being for children, which I think is part because like my projects were. always really cool, colorful and fun. But I think it also has some sprinkles. of sexism of being like, oh, it's a woman doing something, she must be doing it for the children. And I'm like, oh, fuck the children.

I'm doing it for myself. - Yes. Good. - So I think I was just really early on decided of like, oh no, I'm not gonna try to cater to that. Which like still, I mean I get a lot of messages. from parents being like, can you please stop cussing in your videos? And I'm also like, I get it, but also that is not what's gonna mess up your kids. - Yeah. - Like I really try to be-. - Yeah. - Thoughtful. and a decent enough role model, but I'll also acknowledge that humans fuck. - Yeah. - It's okay.

- Somehow that you being able to say the F you. to the system. - What word? Word? - F. - What do... - I can't. I'm scared. (Simone laughing). It sounds better when you say F you, it's a dance. I should, oh boy. Have you ever made a robot that dances with you? - No. - Okay. - You need a dance partner. (laughs). - [Lex] I get lonely sometimes.

- Yeah. I feel like that's the theme of this whole podcast. Yeah. - Oh. (laughs). - What's the most embarrassed you've ever been. on your podcast? - So, I don't know if you've experienced this, but I am generally embarrassed by most things I say. inside my head. - Yeah. - So like when I say something, like now, it's just, there's a voice inside my head that goes, oh...

- Yeah. - Like what... (laughs). You're a disappointment. Like the parent patting you on the back, the hand stops working. - Yeah. - Just slows down. Yeah. And then there's an awkward silence. You don't know what to say next. That's really embarrassing usually. - Yeah. So I used to work as a journalist so I know. how to sit with the silence and try to drag it out of you.

- [Lex] See what I did there? (laughs). - You gave up. You pulled out. - I quit. - You're like... - I'm sweating. I quit. I'm literally sweating. Okay. - Also 'cause you're in a full fucking suit. What is that, like, how did that come about? - Actually it was probably MIT is because everybody. was dressing in like sweatpants, a very chill wear, and I was like, I like taking everything seriously.

It just felt like a, it was my way of saying F you to the way things are. 'Cause I like, I always admire. Richard Feynman and I like it how there's like. a classiness to it. So I don't know if it's for visual purposes. but it's just how I feel when I put on a suit. It makes me feel like I'm gonna take. this really, really seriously. - Yeah. - And if I embarrass myself, it's all my fault 'cause I tried... There's no excuse. I tried 100%.

The interesting thing about your TED talk, to go to a dark topic... - Mm. This is what happened when I walked off stage? - [Lex] No, what happened when you walked off stage? - Found out that I had a brain tumor. Was that not where you're going? - Yes. - There's something else dark. about my, yeah. - Well, yes. I thought you knew through the TED talk, you found out right after. - I mean the reason that I found out was partly. because of the TED talk 'cause my mom came into town. to be there for it,

and my right eyelid was swollen and it had kind. of been swelling over a while. And I even got comments about it on my YouTube. channel and I thought it was allergies 'cause I was like, oh, it's just pollen allergies, it's just affecting my one eye 'cause maybe I sleep. mostly on that side. I don't know. And my mom came into the States and then. Vancouver for my TED talk and she's like, Simone, you have to like have a scan or see what's up.

Like, we have to go to the doctor. And she really pushed me to do it. 'cause I was like, I'm fine. And I had an MRI scan. on like 5:00 PM on a Friday night. My boyfriend at the time was there and I remember. like halfway through an MRI scan, they kind of pull you out and they inject. contrast fluid or this like thing that, yeah, just gives 'em another type of scan.

And the nurse looked at me in this way and was like, how long have you had symptoms for? And that's when I knew that they'd found something. and then they like shove you back into the machine. for another 20 minutes. And my ex was just seeing like them like zooming. in and out of my scans and there was like. this obviously something that just looked wrong. in there and they sent me to the ER and I found. out that I had a brain tumor the size of a golf ball. that probably had been growing since I was a teenager. So it'd been growing over like 10, 15 years.

And yeah, I had surgery to remove it and then it kept. on growing, the parts that they couldn't remove. and I went through radiation treatment. So that was like two years that just was kind of dedicated. to just getting better and getting back. to where I am now. And I remember like I was so stoked about 2020. 'cause I was like this is the first year that I'm not. held back by my health and I'm like finally gonna be. able to do everything I'm better, and then. the pandemic happens and you're kind of just like, okay,

just in the backseat of what's happening and things. that are outta my control again. - In your public, you made a couple of videos about... - Yeah. - About it. I have a brain tumor, my brain tumor's back. You kind of, you know, you name your tumor Brian, you kind of make. it a light-hearted thing, but so you don't reveal much of the darkness. But were you scared? What were some low points? - Yeah, of course I was scared.

I mean it's terrifying. It's like, and also when it's in your brain, like, you know, I was like take any other part of me. but don't take my brain. No. It's this unfathomable thing that happens when you're like, I'm healthy, how could this possibly be a brain tumor? Like my eye is swollen. Like there's nothing there. I haven't had any seizures, I haven't had any cognitive issues, I haven't had any headaches even,

like how is that even possible? So you go through a lot of different stages. of just trying to understand what it is. And I think I remember being hit like right as I found. out when we were in like an Uber, poor Uber driver, from where I had my MRI scan to the ER where they sent me. And I was really both really grateful that I've gotten. so much more outta life than I ever thought I would. Like I've had a hell of a life. and even if it would've ended really early,

I would've done so much more than I ever thought. But I was also really, really sad that I hadn't had kids yet. Like that was my big grief of like, fuck, I haven't had time to have kids yet. But no, it's terrifying. I mean the prospect of somebody cutting up your head, like that's terrifying. But it honestly wasn't as bad as I thought it was gonna be. - What about the radiation treatment? What are some things that, you know, people should,

well you learned about it, about the process and about yourself. through that that people might be interested about? - I think surgery was both harder and easier. than radiation treatment because... It was harder because it was so much more intense. and it's such a dramatic thing, like going to the hospital that morning and being like, I don't know, and you feel so awful when you wake up and... But then the recovery from it was pretty linear.

Like almost every week I would get a little bit better. The thing about radiation is that it was not linear at all, and it kind of drained me in this weird, like it was so hard to predict. And also they put me on these, I spent months feeling like I was high out of my mind, and I couldn't process reality in a way. that I normally would. Like, everything just felt off, like I felt, yeah, I felt like I was high on drugs,

and I kept on asking my doctors what was going. on and they're like, no, no, no, no, don't think it's anything related. And I was on this Alzheimer's medicine that they put. you on to prevent dementia from radiation treatment, like kind of as a preventative. And I found all these subreddits of people using. that Alzheimer's medicine to get high, and people be like, "Oh my god bro, I took like 20 milligrams yesterday and I was high. out of my mind," and I'm like, I'm on 30 milligrams a day.

Like of course it feels weird. And that was honestly one of the scariest parts. of it because that was the first time where I felt like. it genuinely affected my way of processing reality. And yeah, I was so relieved when I found out that that was. what was causing it. 'Cause I felt like I was going crazy. But even after surgery, like I woke up and I felt like myself. Like everything was, I got no brain injury. So obviously this is like my experience from somebody.

who came out of it pretty unscathed, who didn't get any brain injuries and didn't have. to do any of that recovery. It's more just the recovery from like the physical act. of somebody cutting your skull open and taking. a large chunk out. - Did you research all the things that can go wrong? - No. - During surgery? - No. I honestly am, I'm a bit surprised by how I acted. Just pausing for you to pour. You're welcome, editors.

- This is like a commercial. - (laughs) This is like work injury from being a YouTuber. This all like freeze if there's audio that comes in. - Ah... - Ah. Yeah. Sponsored by tap water. I was surprised by how little I was willing. to think critically about what my doctors told me to do.

Like I, very early on, the neurologist that I worked with, he was the one who was on call at the ER the day. where I came in and he was the one who ended up doing. my surgery and he kind of became like my rock. in this and I just 100% trusted him and he turned. out to be an amazing doctor and like did a great job. and was just like, and... So I got so, so lucky. But I remember my mom being like, oh, but we should like talk about second opinions and like.

we should try to do more research. And I was like so unwilling to do that because opening. up to the idea that there are. multiple ways or multiple things. that might be right or wrong. was so terrifying. Like I wanted there to just be like, no, this is the only option, this is what we need to do. And if I started questioning that then I don't know. if I would've been able to go through with it. So yeah, it was a strange, I just really wanted to trust the doctors.

that I worked with and I was very scared to question. them in any way. - How did that process change your relationship with death? Are you afraid of death? - No. - Do you ponder. your mortality? - Yeah, I think. it took away a part of youth for me. - [Lex] Like the innocence? - Yeah, I mean you kind of think of terrible things. as something that happens to other people, and death and illness...

So I think it kind of fast tracked that for me, but it mostly changed my relationship to life. It changed, it's made me so much more gentle with myself. Like going through illness, it forces you to redefine what it means to be good. And before being good had been pushing myself really hard. It had been working, and I don't know,

just being really hard with myself and disciplined, and when you're healing from something, being good is listening to your body, it's resting. It's like really being in tune. with what your health, where your health is at. And I think that is something that's kind of stuck. with me since then. I'm like so much more gentle and delicate with myself. - And with others? Are you? - Ah fuck it. I think it definitely, it's like when you're young and healthy. it's really hard to- - Yeah.

- Know what it feels like to be ill. And I remember, you know, you like go to yoga class and you'd be like, oh my god, this is too slow. Like I want it to be, I have so much more energy like I need to... And when I was recovering from my brain surgery, there was this yoga studio nearby my house. and they had yoga for seniors and I was so stoked. 'cause I was like, oh, this is the yoga class I'll be able to take.

- [Lex] Yeah. - And I think that was really eye-opening of just like, there's no, you kind of imagine that it's just like, oh, just push yourself harder. But no, that's not it. With age or sickness or it's just, you gotta be so gentle with yourself and you have. to cater to people where they're at. - Yeah. And just appreciation of this like biological vehicle. you get and you should take care of it? - Being sick sucks. - Yeah. - It's awful.

And I really am really motivated to postpone. that for as much as I can. And also I was so tremendously grateful when I got. ill that I felt like I had so much to take from, like I had so many energy reservoirs, I'd spent my life taking pretty decent care of my body. and like exercising and eating well and like not. wrecking my body in any way. And I felt like this was the first time where that was. so critical and I felt like my body was ready for it.

You know? - I thought you were gonna go the other way. Like, you can take care of your body all you want and it's, bad stuff happens. So you should go on drug binges and go wild and do. crazy things and... - I mean I also had that thought where I was like, I fucking floss every day. How do I have a brain tumor? I've been good. Like why does this happen to me? But more so it was like my body was so resilient.

and ready for it, and I was really, really proud of it. - Yeah, it's amazing that the human body's able. to recover from even the harshest things. - Yeah, it's wild. And my brain. So after, after surgery, 'cause yeah, I had a brain tumor the size of a golf ball kinda. behind my right eye. And after brain surgery you kind of just have. this big hole in your head, like this void, and usually your brain stays that way.

Like it retains the shape even after the brain. tumor is gone. But for some reason my brain was feeling really. ambitious and it has completely flopped back. and I have almost like a normal looking brain now, where doctors are like, oh, we would almost not be able to tell that you had one. So yeah, that just blew my mind of being like, when did it, was that why I had all those headaches after surgery? It's just my brain being like, ah. - Trying, working. Yeah.

Oh, pretty cool Thing I wanted to ask. you about is the Every Day Calendar that you worked on. - [Simone] Mm-hm. - That was a long time. That took a long time. - Yeah, so basically I designed this calendar, like I wanted to start meditating every day, but it's really hard to meditate every day to like kind. of build that habit. And what I would do is I would make these grids. in my notebooks where I could like check a box. for every day. Like I just wanted like a little, ding, I did it and like this thing of accountability,

but then I was like, this is, I don't wanna have a notebook that I do this in. Like I want an art piece that I can hang on my wall, like accountability art. And I made this thing called. the Every Day Calendar, which has an entire year on it. So it's 365 days and if you tap any of the days. you light it up and we turn it into a Kickstarter. campaign and it's now a product that I'm selling. through my product business, the Yetch Store. - What's it called? - The Yetch Store. - Yeah. And that for people who are confused is the right way.

to pronounce your last name. - It's right but it's so wrong. It makes, my last name is spelled G-I-E-R-T-Z. - Who does that song? "If Loving You Is Wrong I Don't Want to Be Right.". - Yeah. Pronouncing my last name, yeah. - That's all makes because, what's his name? From the Office. He covers it... From the British Office, which is the better Office. Okay.

Tangent upon a tangent upon a tangent. So you said you created the Every Day Calendar to make. a more beautiful, in quotes, and more sacred gold star system on a wall, not a notebook that gets thrown into a drawer. - Yeah. Wow. Well said, past me. - (laughs) You said that making this calendar taught. you a lot, in quotes. I feel like a real investigative journalist. You've said, in 2018-. - Yeah, I'm waiting for the gotcha. - Can you share some of the lessons you've learned?

Like what do you mean you've learned a lot. from making this calendar. - Oh. - What are we talking about? - As somebody who builds things, manufacturing something is such an unrelated process, like making one of something and making 10,000. of something, like they're not even distant cousins. Like it's completely different beasts to tackle. And yeah, so that was one of it. Everything takes so much longer than you think. it's going to. I did a Kickstarter campaign that we launched. in 2018 after my surgery and,

yeah, it's just, you know, you think you're so generous with the timelines, we still ended up being a year late but we shipped. We're good. But yeah, I mean I'm trying to get my product business. off the ground. We launched in May and it's just, yeah it's just a pain. As somebody who's terrified of disappointing people, I'm like why have I chosen some of the jobs. where it's the easiest to disappoint people? - [Lex] You can disappoint people at scale. No.

- Yeah, I can disappoint people at scale and also. them actually having paid me money to deliver on something, which is a terrible transaction, but it's, I am just stoked to realize that I love the job still. Like I love the product development aspect of it. I love trying to design stuff for manufacturing. and figure it out and like anticipate how people are. gonna use your products and like. the Every Day Calendar, I mean we've sold thousands. of them now, they're all over the world.

and it's like people actually finding something. useful that I made and implementing them into their lives. It's just mind boggling. - Especially 'cause this is tracking habits, good habits. So this is... - Or bad ones, you can do it wherever. You can use it however you want. - I went in a drinking binge again today. - Yeah. - Success. Great success. - Kicked another kid. - What does it take to mass manufacture something?

What did you learn about that? Like what are, can you like elucidate the gap. between the one, the prototype versus the like. product development for mass manufacturer? - I mean for one of it is like, yeah, the manufacturing, the tooling that they use in manufacturing. and to do things in a cost effective way. is really different. Like I can make a one-off, then it's gonna take me 17 hours, but obviously you can't spend 17 hours per calendar. when you're doing something in factory.

I think it's that, like quality control is such a beast. You cannot trust anybody telling you that things are. gonna be okay. Like you have to have such trust issues, and it's also terrifying. I mean as somebody who's doing everything independently, I haven't raised any capital for it. Like it's all self invested and we're doing. it all in-house. It's just, you know, yeah, I could buy 10,000 calendars but then what if all.

of them are, have a manufacturing issue or, you know, it's just terrifying because the risks are so high, but also I got to this point where, for one, this is something that I wanted to do for a long time, but something that going through health problems taught. me is how fragile my business model is. Because, I mean, I'm basically running. an influencer business where I make videos oh YouTube,

and then I have an ad spot and I talk about a brand. So like I'm a human billboard, which is fine, it grants me a lot of freedom to play around. But if I am not well enough to be on a stage, giving talks, or be in front of a camera, everything stops. Like it's such a pillar of a business and it can. topple over at any given moment or like YouTube. could change the algorithm, like legislation could catch up and change. how you're able to advertise on the internet.

Like it's so frail and I really felt like I need. to diversify what I'm doing and also just to keep. it interesting for myself. So what I decided was to start a product business. because also it's kind of this perfect combination. of businesses where I can turn my YouTube channel. into an R&D department 'cause I have a reason. to constantly be exploring things and turning. out new products. I can also do that as early audience testing and see. what people are actually excited about. And if there's something that I think would make.

an interesting product, I can pass. that over to the product business and then. once I'm ready to market that and sell it, I can pass it over to the YouTube channel. So it's like, I can kind of, once I realized that YouTube didn't feel like an end goal. for me, I was like, okay, then I can use it as a tool to accomplish. these other things that I wanna do and this was. one of them. So yeah, it's a lot that went into it. - And one of the tools, like I said, is R&D but it's also kind of advertisement. for the cool stuff that you're doing. I think Mr. Beast is one of the creators.

that's also starting to understand this power. of this reputation that you've built of like people. trust you, like they love you, to do cool stuff, they trust that you put your heart and soul into a thing. - Yeah. - And so like, and they feel your pain and the struggle too. You know? Like if a product, like, for example, say the Every Day Calendar, like there was issues. in manufacturing something like this-. - It would be hard. Yeah. - They would feel the pain.

of that and they would still support. I mean that that's the beauty of it when you have. the actual person right there struggling. with their lows and highs. - That's a decision that I made really early. on where I was like, the Yetch Store is supported by me. but it's separate from me. It's not merchandise. You don't have to know who I am or care about who I am. to be interested in this product. And if you go on the website, yetch.store, plug, it's like it's, I'm on the about page, Y-E-T-C-H.store,

like you have to go to the about page to find. anything about me. Like it's definitely not like this is Simone's brand, and I think anybody who's followed me for a long time. will see that like my personality is sprinkled into it, but it's still like clean off of me. And I think that's also because I wanted something. that was separate from me. 'Cause I am also running out of narcissism, believe it or not. I'm like, I don't feel like I wanna, I don't want it to be about me and I want.

it to be something that can also run independently. of me and doesn't, like I wanna be able to retire my face, and still do like the other stuff because I think it's fun, but I don't want that to be the core of it. - What other kind of stuff have you worked. on for the product design, for Yetch? - So I mean a lot of the products, I decided to launch the store with a really small. roster of products because developing products is such a, it's such upfront, heavy,

like cost-wise and just investment, such a, it's very big upfront investment. So, and I know that it would take a while, or I knew it would take a while for me to kind of find. the right tonality and visual language for the brand. So I just wanted to launch it, have it be out there, start working on it, start like learning more about what it entails, even if we just had a small roster of products. So we've released it with, we have a puzzle... (laughs).

- Yes. - This is just a whim, but I wanted to release a puzzle that has. one piece missing. So it's actually, as far as I can tell, it's the world's first officially incomplete puzzle. You get 499 outta 500 pieces. I keep the 500th piece. So I have a box in my workshop. with everybody's missing pieces. - [Lex] Yeah. - And I don't know what to do with it yet, but someday it will come to me. - Profound artistic statement. - It is something, it's definitely something and I'm surprised.

by how many of them we've sold, which I've also like, I kind of wanted to have that product out there. 'Cause I was like, can you imagine having a pitch deck, if I do ever raise money of being like, you know how good I am at selling things? I sold people 5,000 incomplete puzzles. - Incomplete puzzles. - Yeah. Also have, you know, it's like a lot of the products, I call them basket fillers, like they're kind of just like stuff where I'm like, yeah, this is like easy to throw into your basket. I mean we have these rings, I'm wearing them. So there's a screwdriver ring,

which is a Phillips head screwdriver, and then a screw ring that kind of has a recess, like a Phillips head screw, have these sawdust socks that make you look like. your feet are covered in sawdust. Like you spend all time in the all day in the shop. without having to put any of the actual effort in. But then we have four more products in the pipeline. that we're working on and that are kind of the more, the big ambitious products that are more in line. with what I want the brand to be. Like the tagline is unique solutions to every day problems.

And it's just a lot of like trying to develop. novel takes on existing products. - So something where the function becomes a bigger part. of the design? - Yeah. - And so what's the process of creating. something like that? Like even Every Day Calendar? So like what are some challenges that are. interesting along the way? So you have to sketch it out, you have to like brainstorm, draw things out and then create a schematic and see. like how, how do you know what it's going to look like visually? - You don't.

So the Every Day Calendar, the first, so I just built it for myself first. Like that did not come as a product idea first. And that's kind of been the process that I've had. for a lot of things. Like I make it for myself and then I'm like, oh, maybe other people would find this useful too. So the Every Day Calendar, the first prototype I made, it had actually physical mechanical toggle switches. So 365 toggle switches that you could flip. So if you worked out that day or meditated,

for me it was meditating, you can just flip that switch and that was great. But when I started evaluating it as a product, it's, if you have 365 of something in a product, like the runaway cost is crazy. So the cheapest option, most reliable option we could find was capacitive touch. So basically it's a touch interface and the front plate. is a circuit board itself. So it's this like circuit board that's designed.

in this really fancy way. So it looks like a beautiful piece of art. Not to toot my own horn too much, but it's actually a circuit board, which I also thought was really interesting of like. using this that people usually hide away in products. And it felt like a nod to my career in electronics. as well of being like, no, let's make it pretty and let's make it, put it front and forward. But yeah, I mean what I'm realizing now more and more. is like, there's so many of,

like I would love to turn the puzzle table into a product, but then it's like that would be a $7,000 table. And I don't wanna sell a table for $7,000. So you're kind of limited to the price bracket. you're in and it's like your margins are tough. Like maintaining your margins are really, really tough. And as somebody who's like, I would love to sell the stuff that we're doing cheaper, but you just, it's just not feasible. Like you need those margins to survive. And... - Well one of the genius things in the conversations. I've had with Elon is the ability through sort.

of systematic questioning of how things have been done. in the past to discuss what is the lowest cost way. to solve a problem. And so he's very good at getting to, like with Optimus robot for example, the humanoid robot, how do you get the cost down? - [Lex] Yeah. - And that seems to be like one of the essential things. to do in any product that you have to mass manufacture. is constantly discuss like how do we simplify, simplify? - It's definitely a design limitation that's interesting,

it's both hard and interesting to work. within and that's such a different thing as well. It's like, I mean as I talked about before, like what is the context in which you're creating things? Like I'm still building things, I'm still inventing things, but I change the context and it has a very different. set of limitations and constantly trying to simplify. your product to make it cheaper and, yeah, it's a really interesting and different type. of design process. - You can lose some of the magic though, right? Like people can do that a little bit too much.

I think Apple is famous, like Jony Ive is famous for sort of focusing. on the design first and not worrying about the cost later, 'cause you don't wanna sacrifice... There's some stuff that's gonna cost more, but it keeps... - Yeah. - Some of the magic. - I think it's for some of the products. that we're working on, it's like, I'm like, let's just make it the best we think it can be and then. we can scale back from there. Like, just like let's not impose these limitations. on ourselves upfront. Like let's just make it the most beautiful version.

of itself and then we can decide what we wanna. compromise with or compromise on. Yeah. - That's what I say every day when I look in the mirror. You just make the most beautiful... - And then we can compromise. Yeah. - [Lex] We'll just discuss-. - It's why you put on that suit. - Yeah. - Yeah. - And then see how goes wrong later. All right. Back a little bit to the robots just, or actually to one of your more epic projects. I mean they're all epic, but Truckla.

- [Simone] Yeah. - You cutting into a Tesla and turning. it into an epic truck. What was that like? Where did the idea come from? - The idea came from that I really wanted. an electric pickup truck. - Yeah. - Like I'm only really driven electric because I got. my driver's license pretty late and I'm like one. of that first generation drivers, it's like probably never gonna have a gas vehicle. But yeah. This was in 2018 as well. 2018 was a big year. - Yeah. - Yeah. Or 2019, I can't remember.

And I figured that we could just make our own. - So you took a Tesla? - Tesla Model 3. - Model 3. - Mm-hm. - And you cut off a piece of it and you turn. into a pickup truck. What's the, (laughs) it looks pretty badass. So like what are some of the challenges of doing that? It's unlike other projects you've done. - Yeah, it's very much outside of my realm.

Like I'm not a car person. I haven't worked on cars before so we brought. in a big team and had another project manager. for it and stuff. 'Cause also like, cars, you definitely don't want things to go wrong. Like there's no part of me that wants to fuck around. and make something that's gonna be really unsafe for me. or for other people who are driving with me. So yeah, I mean it was about a year of planning, and then we got the car and then we spent a month.

just tearing it apart and trying to make it... I was so set like I really wanted. the car just for its function, and I was like, I'm so fine with it if it's really ugly. But then we managed to make it actually look really good. - Oh so that wasn't part of the discussion, like how the final thing looks? - I wasn't that fussed about it. I was like I just want it for its function. Like I really want this car, I don't want it because it looks cool. But then it ended up looking pretty cool as well.

And I'm really, I mean even now a couple of years. later when there are some more options of electric. pickup trucks, I still stan Truckla. Like, she's, like Rivian, Ford F-150, like. they're all great but they're giant. - You're sitting there on a porch in your cowboy hat... - Yep. - Drinking whiskey and saying-. - With my cattle dog. Yeah.

- Shotguns... - I wanted like small '90s pickup truck. - Back to shitty robots. You used parts of previous robots a lot. What's like a memorable example of that? It's just the graveyard of parts? In the workshop? - I've gotten better at keeping projects intact. In the beginning I used to disassemble. every project 'cause it was also. a much more stringent budget. So if I needed a motor then I would like steal it off. of an existing robot or a previous robot. But I've got a really good at not doing that now,

because I'm like, maybe one day I wanna have. a museum exhibit and then they would be nice to have. all of those machines intact and not having. to rebuild them. - Centuries from now, they'll, you know, you can look at Benjamin Franklin's house... - [Simone] Oh yeah, nobody's gonna look at my house. Yeah. - Simone Giertz's house. - No. - Just some weird shit. - Yeah. That goes great with my idea of myself. - (laughs) With the autobiography? Yeah.

- Yeah. - You said that people keep requesting. in the comments that... - That I put a on dildo on it? - Yeah. - [Lex] I have-. - Wait was that actually what you were gonna ask? - Yeah, I have dildo written in my notes. - I thought I just made it into a raunchy punchline. You were actually gonna get there. Yeah, that was in the early days in the shitty robot days. But now I have a filter on my YouTube channel. for every possible spelling of dildo. - So I mean, people want to probably sexualize robots, right?

Or they put- - They wanna sexualize. my relationship with them. Yeah. - Oh... - You know, 'cause I have majority male followers, and they're so sweet and so like respectful, 99%. But I realize like, there is a lot of, I've realized that society hasn't taught men. how to have female role models, and the way that people channel it is through being like,

oh, it's because I wanna fuck her or I wanna date her. or I wanna marry her. And I'm like, I don't think you want any of those things. I think you actually just admire my work, but you don't know how to look up to a woman. - Yeah. That's beautifully put. What about weapons? Do you get requests to put weapons on a thing? - No. It's interesting, I kind of started in robotics. as just like a happy camper who is really. into like tinkering and now I'm kind of seeing some.

of the darker parts of it, and I remember first time I went to a proper factory. and I saw like big industrial world robot arms at work. and I was like, oh wow, this is what it is about, you know? And it was almost scary where I was like, oh, I've just been like playing around. with these tiny versions of this and I'm like, oh my god, everybody, robotics is cool and fun! And then you get in there and you're like, this is kind of terrifying. - You were platforming the very things that will. destroy human civilization. - Yes. - You're making it fun and entertaining.

- I'm the mouthpiece and I'm like getting people. into robotics and engineering and we're all. just building our demise. - Yeah. - At accelerating speed. No, but I mean I had that in like as the same. with also with like companies who are saying. that they're never gonna put weapons on their robots. and then have military contracts and stuff like. that and you're like, this is dark and scary. Fortunately I haven't gotten a lot of requests for it. - Yeah. Drones are terrifying.

Especially... - Drones are fucking terrifying, and it's really, everything... I mean we humans are so good at creative ways. of killing and fucking each other. It's like almost how everything goes. It's like, and it's, yeah, I'm terrified of the future where we are gonna use. more robots to kill each other. - And come up with new and new creative ways to kill. and hurt each other. - Yeah. - Emotionally, psychologically, physically.

- [Simone] Yeah. - Speaking of which, what are your thoughts about, I don't know if you've been paying attention, but ChatGPT, the advancement in language models. and artificial intelligence. Have you added speaking capabilities to any. of your devices? - I have Siri on. Yeah. I used to have an Amazon Echo in my house, but then I removed it. It just freaked me out that I could whisper. from my bed and it heard me. - Yeah. - I'd be like, "Alexa, play Spotify.". It'd be like, "Playing Spotify!".

- Yeah. - Oh fuck. I... I think it is a powerful tool that we are not. fully ready for. - Yeah. - And I don't know, I think the internet is kind of a parade of us. using powerful things in harmful ways and I think. chatbots are really, really exciting. I am stoked to have a personal assistant that's like.

a virtual assistant that actually does a good job. and can solve problems for me. But, yeah, it also feels like. it can get dark really, really quickly. - Yeah. 'Cause you can form close connections like. we're talking about with it and then it can be used. to manipulate you. Manipulate you in terms of what is true. and manipulating you in terms of getting. you to buy stuff. - Yeah. - Or maybe because at least for now it's centralized, getting everybody to think the same way.

- I mean for, I mean it's the same. in like algorithms being used. to radicalize people or kind of having. that as a consequence of the way that they work. and combine that with a really advanced language model. and like you can control people's worldview in a way. that you couldn't. I mean it's just, it's wild and I think we're not ready for it. And I don't know if we ever would be. because we're very impressionable, little squishy flash bags.

- [Lex] Takes us back to the one, the squishy flesh bags interact. Which one pops first, still-. - Oh yeah, the bubble. - The bubble wrap. - Bubble on bubble. New paper coming out. - What we were talking about. Oh, what about consciousness? So you never anthropomorphized the robots? Did they ever come to life for you? Where you kind of thought... - No, 'cause I've built them and I know how they work. - [Lex] So that prevents you. from being able to see the magic?

- I don't know. Yeah. But I think it's like, I definitely when I did a lot of the shitty robot stuff, like I wanted them to move like a human or like. in a more organic way and not just like point A to point B. - [Lex] Yeah. - Which is easiest way to program stuff. So I wanted other people to anthropomorphize them, but I don't think I did necessarily. I'm trying to think of a piece of technology. that I've kind of projected feelings upon, but no, I can't.

- So sometimes what makes me anthropomorphize something, even though I built it, is there's element of surprise. So especially with machine learning, you're surprised by the kind of things it does. Have you ever been surprised by a robot? - No. 'Cause they're all pretty dumb. Like also the robots I built, it's like they're all just servos moving from, I mean they're, I don't think I've built anything. with a huge amount of sensors,

like they're just moving in a pattern that I programmed. them to move. - What's the most complex thing you've built? - I mean, probably Truckla. - Truckla. - Yeah. Was complex just for the sheer scale of it and like the, I mean both, I think that was my biggest project both. in terms of build scope but also in terms of impact. that it had. Like that project just went wild. But then, yeah. Then I don't know. The bubble wrap music box?

I don't know. They're all complicated in different ways. - That one is epic. How does the bubble wrap connect to the flute by the way? How does that work? - The flute is just right where, like mounted it right where it pops it. - Okay. - Yeah. - [Lex] That's so fascinating. I gotta watch that video. - Yeah. Have fun. - Funny enough, in my, in deep investigative journalistic research of you... - [Simone] Yeah? - Says you used to be an MMA reporter.

- Yeah. - How? How? How? How did that happen? How'd you get into it? - I was really into martial arts. I was like a huge UFC buff. I mean, this is 2010, maybe. - [Lex] Did you practice martial arts yourself? - I did, yeah. I was, mostly stand up, I did. Or like, I did a lot of Muay Thai and then some. Brazilian jujitsu and just, yeah, I was really, the thing is I get really intense about my hobbies. and I was so into it. - So you went all in.

- I was all in. - Awesome. - And I had worked a little bit as a journalist. and I was like, oh, I should like do MMA reporting and I emailed. this MMA website in Sweden. I was like, hey, can I come and write for you? And they were like, oh, actually we are going to an event in Gothenburg tomorrow, do you wanna come? - [Lex] Yeah. - And I was like, wow, this is a lot. It's like 11:00 PM at night, but sure, I'll come. And I went there to their office,

I'd never really met them. And I'm like, this is kind of scary. Like I'm a 20 year old girl and going there. with a group of men, and they were so rude. They'd like, I went there and I was like, "Hey, what's up?". And they were all kind of ignoring me and just like. not looking at me or interacting with me, until they realized that Simon was a girl. because we'd only talked over email and they were like, oh, this guy named Simon is gonna come.

And then they were like, oh, fuck, Simon. It's actually Simone. - Yeah. - And it's a girl. So I kind of like slid into that in a very, very strange way. And I did that for a year, but then I got kicked out of an interview. with Alexander Gustafsson, and I was like, oh-. - Your pronunciation is so good. - Yeah. (laughs). And then I just kind of never went back and I was. done with it and now I'm not allowed to do martial. arts because of brain stuff. So, I've kind of put all of that behind me. And it's interesting. It's like I definitely see the athleticism.

in it and the skill that goes into it. I think as the older I get, the more concerned I am about the health impacts. of the sport and of the people who are practicing. it on an elite level. And I'm just not as, cannot as 100% just cheer as somebody beats somebody. else up into a pulp. - Yeah. Especially considering the effects you might have. on the brain. - Mm-hm. - May I ask why you got kicked.

out of this Alexander Gustafsson interview. Was it anything fun? - So, it is, no, it wasn't. I didn't intend to get kicked out. I didn't realize I was gonna get kicked out. So it was, Alexander Gustafsson was gonna fight Jon Jones. - Yeah. - And he had just, he was kind of like this golden boy. in Sweden and he had just come out to the press. that he had actually been to jail for violent crimes,

and all I wanted to ask, all I asked was what was the reason that you wanted. to bring that forward now? And apparently that was completely like blacklisted, but I hadn't gotten briefed about it at all. And the PR man, head a PR of the UFC was just yelling at me. and they kicked me out of, Grand Hotel in Stockholm. And I immediately called my mom and I was like, "Mom, you will not believe what just happened.

I got kicked out of an interview in at Grand Hotel.". Because in the '90s she got kicked out of an interview. with Mel Gibson from the Grand Hotel, so that's like runs in the family. So I was just so... - Like she proud of you? - So yeah, no, it was just this weird generational skip where we both. gotten kicked out of interviews at the same hotel. - You spent quite a bit of time in China as a student. Is that something you could speak to? The differences in culturally,

maybe even from like a student. in an engineering perspective between China and US, maybe even Sweden. Those are like technologically speaking. just such fundamentally different places. - I mean I moved to China when I was 16. - Yeah. - And I went there. as an exchange student. So that is before I had ever touched upon those things. And it was, and then I went back when I was 19 to work. as an English teacher for a little bit. It was...

It was incredibly challenging to be there. - The language barrier, the language, the culture? - All of it. I mean I was like, now when I look at 16 year olds, I'm like, you're a baby. And I moved, sorry, 10 to 16 year olds listening to this. But like, I just can't believe I did that. And yeah, I didn't speak the language, I got placed in like a small city. with almost no foreigners. It was just a constant audience of people staring at you, because they haven't interacted with a lot.

of foreigners before. And yeah, it definitely, and then after that I moved to Kenya and I think. that was one of the reasons why it was so interesting. to move to the States because people were like, oh, isn't it like hard with the language barrier. or the cultural difference? And I was like, dude, this is nothing. And I could speak the language like I could speak. English well and I could kind of pass. as an American even just as I moved here. And it was such a relief where I was like, wow,

I'm like an undercover foreigner, because I got to a point where I realized like, it doesn't matter how good my mandarin is, people are never gonna fully accept me here. So, yeah. - And you moved, you went to Kenya, you've spoken about this, after your parents got divorced? - Yeah. When did I talk about that? Didn't realize I told that story. - [Lex] I know... I know so many things. What do you think this is? - Is it from when I have my Amazon Echo installed? - Yeah- - Yeah, so...

- [Lex] Made a few contacts. - I came home from China first time I was there for a year. It's one of the most turned upside down days of my life. I spent a year there and I was so excited. I had really rough year and I was so excited. just to come home and like be a child again. I remember thinking and just like feeling like I belonged. And then I came home and I found out that my parents. had separated when I was gone.

And they hadn't told me because they wanted to like. not affect my stay there, which I think was 100% the right decision of them to make. But I kind of came home to a house that was starting. to get picked apart. And-. - Such a big shock to you world. - It was, both yes and no. I think I remember I just sat down on my bed. and I was like, well, this isn't what I expected, but I guess I'll move to Kenya because I was one. of the few, there were a few Swedish boarding schools.

in the world. There was one in Brussels, Paris, London, and then one in Nairobi. And I didn't wanna miss more school because I'd taken. a gap year when I went to China. So I was like, I guess I'll go to Nairobi. And I'm thinking now, like I think if my parents had stayed together, granted, it was amazing that they did, made the right decision in every way. But my roots kind of never grew back after that. And I think I just kept on moving abroad and moving. around and being really restless and, yeah...

And... - Have you ever been able to find a home, spiritually? - No, I have a home. Yeah. I mean I have a home in the people around me and I have. a lot of different homes. You know, it's, I think what I'm realizing more. and more is like you cannot live. without consequence and compromise. And sometimes I can envy people who have that like. same friend group that they had their entire life or that,

you know, just really belong in a place. And I realize that would be amazing. But I've chosen different experiences. And one of the upsides of that is I can feel. home almost anywhere. One of the downsides of that is that I cannot feel. fully at home anywhere. - Wow. That's deeply and darkly poetic. - [Simone] Yeah. Do you feel at home?

- Probably the way you put it is really beautifully put. Yeah. No, I have to find home in the people I love. - [Simone] Yeah. - What advice would you give to young people that look. at your stellar life, the trajectory of your career as a human being, as a creator, as a engineer, as a designer,

as a incredibly interesting personality, who's working on an autobiography. What advice would you give them? Like how to make their way in this life? Maybe high school students, maybe college students, on how they can have a career they can be proud of, or life they can be proud of? - Oh my god, Lex. Hmm... You know, it's, this is not the advice, but there are very few moments in a career that feel.

as good as you think they are going to. And there are very few moments of feeling really. proud of yourself. Like, I feel like I often just feel like I'm not doing. it well enough or big enough or, and now I just had one of those moments like hearing. you say that I'm like, oh, I'm actually doing okay. I think my main advice is enthusiasm is a much more. potent fuel in life than duty.

And just because something is boring doesn't mean. that it's important. I kind of realized for myself that like I'm so much. better at the things I enjoy, but school doesn't really teach us how to stay. excited about something and how to stay. enthusiastic about something. And if you can find that, then like you got a gold mine of potential. So I kind of had to reprogram myself to be like,

just because this is fun, doesn't mean that it's not important, because I had so much guilt about it in this weird way. or where I'm like, no, this is too fun. This can't be work. And I'm like, no, it's still work. The boring stuff isn't more important. - And the vice versa as you said, just because it's boring and hard doesn't mean. it's the right thing to do? - Yeah. - That's interesting. I'm gonna have to take that advice and think through it. 'Cause I'm, genetically,

I'm built a little bit like if this is really unpleasant, it's probably good for me. - [Simone] Yeah. - And it's a dangerous thing to think. Sometimes it's true, sometimes it's not. - Yeah. No. And it's like what comes really easy and where do. you have that kind of effortless momentum. and enthusiasm and that is kind of the sweet spot. I think that I'm also really happy that I spent time. trying out so many different jobs. I mean, I've had so many different jobs before I did.

it and I would do things for a year and then I quit. and it feels like I tried on a bunch of different. pants and you're like, okay, I can kind of wear this, but they're like not super comfortable or I don't love. the look of them or whatever. And now I feel like I've found this pair of pants. that just like fits me perfectly and that perfectly. caters to my strengths and my weaknesses. Like I used to work as an editor. for the Swedish government, and I remember thinking like,

oh, I need to be okay that not a lot of things. are happening and that things are moving slowly. and that the work is kind of like monotonous. And then I realize like, or maybe I should be in a workplace. where it's a benefit or strength that I want a lot. of things to happen and that I can handle a high speed. - [Lex] Yeah. - You know, and I think that is really such. a good question to ask as well. Like what are my strengths? What are my weaknesses? And then what context are most of these things strengths? - If you're know that, if you know the measurements,

you can find the right fitting pants? - Yeah. Or the right suit, as Lex will tell you. - What do you think is a meaning of life? - [Simone] Oh, I don't think there's any meaning. - It's a meaningless void? - No, just that it doesn't have any meaning doesn't. mean that it's meaningless. I don't think that there's this big grand meaning. I think a more important question is. what brings you substantial joy in your life? To me it's the relationships with people that I have.

- [Lex] Love? - Yeah. I mean love in all different kinds of form. It's, I'm really working on figuring out how to build. more community, especially in a society that isn't. really made for it. I want more passive hangouts with people, where like I just want people who are there. - Together? - To get high? - No, together. - Okay. To get high?

- Together? - Yeah. I mean, I, like, I think seeing somebody for lunch and kind of shooting. the shit and what's the latest with you is great, but like what I want is somebody to just roll up. in sweatpants and open my fridge and like be like, what are you gonna do? I don't know. Maybe I'll read a book. Like, yeah. I think that... - Just sharing kinda like silence. - Sharing silence, being alone together. And that just, that type of community I think. is what I'm really seeking out now.

'Cause I think, yeah. And also like working on a goal, on a joint goal together with other people. And I think being a YouTuber can be really lonely. I mean, as much as I'm working with a team, it's like, yeah, I just wanna work in a bigger project and kind. of have that sense of, wow, we're like doing this together. 'Cause I think that accesses my pride a lot better. than just being proud of myself.

It's so much easier for me to be proud of a team. than for me to be proud of myself. - That's probably good advice for people who are. doing creative work on YouTube too. To work on a team. - Yeah. And just choose, try to do things, and take it from the Queen of Shitty Robots. But like, try to do things with integrity. - [Lex] Former. - Former Queen of Shitty Robots. Do things with integrity. Like anything you do on the internet is kind of, I think of things as tattoos on my internet.

and on my internet self. And I'm really happy that I said no to some things. early in my career that I know. that I would've regretted now. And you know, just think of it in the long term, like going viral is overwhelming and so stressful. and so fun, but like so intense. And I'm really happy that I managed to build. that into a more long-term career than just have. it be something that passed.

- And come down from the viral moment. and maintain your humanity? - Yeah. And also really deliberately defining what success. means to you, because there are so many reasons. or so many definitions that other people will give you. And especially when you're working on the internet, there are just numbers upon numbers that are like, you're doing well, you're not doing well. And something I'm really happy that I did was early on, I really try to think of like,

what does success look like for me? And I realized that it's not having the world's. biggest YouTube channel, it's being proud. of the projects that I put out and having full say. in how I spend my time. Like that is the most important thing to me. And if I had a huge YouTube channel and I was making. so much money, but I kind of had this machine run. me rather than the other way around, like to me it's so important to be able to wake up.

in the morning and be like, I don't wanna do this any more. And for that to be okay. And I think I defined that for myself early. on and I've really tried to live by it and made. decisions after that. And I'm really happy that I did that. - And also you're, with the store, with the design you're doing now, you're putting a little bit of love in the products. you create at scale. I mean, that's what Jony Ive did. That's the cool thing.

So you can create something beautiful and then people. can share that love at scale. - It's terrifying and beautiful and I'm so here for it. - I'm here for it too. I'm a big fan. I'm a big fan of who you are, I'm a big fan of everything you do, of putting yourself out there, putting your love out there in terms. of the designs you create. Also, just because I'm a fan of robotics, I think you inspire a lot of people. Like the shitty robots are actually incredible robots, and it's incredible engineering, that's all,

that's the best combination of design and engineering. and fun, all of it together. So thank you for doing that. I'm a big fan. You're an inspiration. And thank you for sitting down with me. This is awesome. - Thank you so much for having me. - Thanks for listening to this conversation. with Simone Giertz. To support this podcast please check out our sponsors. in the description. And now let me leave you with some words. from Kurt Vonnegut. "We have to continually be jumping off cliffs. and developing our wings on the way down.".

Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.