Scott Horton: The Case Against War and the Military Industrial Complex | Lex Fridman Podcast #478

The following is a conversation with. Scott Horton. He's the director of the. Libertarian Institute, editorial. director of anti-war.com, co-host of Provoked, and host of the. Scott Horton Show on which he has done. over 6,000 interviews since 2003. He's the author of Provoked, Enough. Already, and other books and articles. that have over the past three decades. criticized US foreign policy, especially. in regard to military interventionism.

and the military-industrial complex. This is the Lex Frman podcast. To. support it, please check out our. sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Scott Horton. I think one of the darkest and most. disturbing chapters of modern American. history is everything that happened. around conducting the so-called wars on. terror. I think to me it was a wakeup. call. I think it was a wakeup call to a. lot of Americans in understanding and.

seeing the military-industrial complex. and seeing what the government's. capacity is to mislead us into war and. to continuously erode basic human. freedoms. Uh if I can allow me to list. some of the estimates from the cost of. war project from Brown University just. so we understand the cost of these wars. The post 911 wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Pakistan, and Yemen led to an. estimated 900,000 to 940,000 direct.

deaths and 3.6 to 3.8 million indirect. deaths. And the cost in terms of dollars. was $8 trillion with 2.2 two trillion on. Afghanistan and 2.9 trillion on Iraq and. uh Syria and the result on every front. as we'll talk about I think it's fair to. say that did not accomplish its purpose. and in fact if we even just look at the. human toll of the people of Afghanistan.

I was also looking at the the numbers. before the war and after the war percent. of Afghans facing food insecurity went. from 62% to 92% of children under five. experiencing acute malnutrition went. from 9% to 50% of Afghans living in. poverty went from 80% to 97%. So it was. extremely costly for Americans and it. was extremely costly for Afghans as you. do in your book enough already. Uh can. you lay out how the full history the.

full context of how it is that the. American people were misled into this. war on terror that was so costly in so. many ways? >> Yeah. First of all, thank you for having. me again. It's great to be with you on. the show. One important statistic uh. that you could have mentioned from the. cost of war project as well is 37. million people displaced from their. homes, right? And the same group um it. was Lex, I'm telling you was at least 5. years ago. God, it's the future now. This maybe 7 8 years ago that they did a.

study that determined that 30,000. American servicemen had blown their own. brains out since then. Well, one way or. the other, deliberately crashing their. motorcycle or whatever it is. So, talk. about the cost of war. That's far. beyond, you know, the actual deaths in. the war. We had about 4,500 in Iraq and. about 2500 in Afghanistan of just. official airmen, marines, and soldiers. on the ground killed, plus contractors. and all that. So, that's speaking not. just to the things that could be. measured, but you can just imagine the.

the scale of suffering that's going on. in the veterans minds. >> Yeah. And you know what too, like you. would have guessed this probably, right? You probably know more about this. subject than me. It was a New York Times. headline, I think yesterday, was, "Oh my. god, look at or maybe it was the Wall. Street Journal. Look at this insane list. of the kinds of drugs that all these. depressed soldiers get put on. Here's 15. different psychoactive drugs, all to. temper the side effects of the others. and whatever where.

you know, and then they say that this. could lead to suicide because of course. we know that, right? They even have to. say that on TV sometimes that some of. these drugs cause suicidal or homicidal. obsessions and this kind of thing that. we know that's one of the side effects. So some percentage of these guys might. have made it if the government health. care system hadn't helped them in the. end is another bitter irony. You know um. the whole thing is just you know you. said we got nothing out of it. I I said. half inest but it is serious but it's. also it shows by relief what a disaster.

this is that the only thing we did get. out of it like literally was. advancements in prosthetic limbs for. amputees. whether if they lost their limb in war. or otherwise like if you want to boil it. down what did anyone get out of this. other than you know some people got a. dividend check from Lockheed or that. kind of thing but that's not to the. benefit of the society whatsoever so. that does not count you I'm talking. about what society got out of it, what. America got out of it. We have better.

Luke Skywalker hands than before. That's. it. >> I don't think there's any more clear. illustrations of the complete failure of. the military-industrial complex. How did. this begin? How do we get into this? >> Yeah. Well, so I'll try to tell the. somewhat fast version. Although, Lex, that's a kiss of death every time I say. that. >> Please, >> we'll go through. >> Please go the slow version. >> Okay. So, the slow version is. we'll start with the end of Vietnam. Okay. So one major aspect of the end of. Vietnam was that Richard Nixon felt like.

he had to bribe the military-industrial. complex some other way. And so one of. the things that he did was he turned to. the sha resopi in Iran and asked him to. increase arm sales. Now I guess I could. go back. I think everybody knows that. the CIA uh helped with the coup of 1953. to reinstall the sha who was the son of. the last dictator and had already been. in for a while and they put him back in. And so now this is uh and that was in. 53. So now this is in the early 70s, 20. years later. And Nixon saying, "Hey, you.

know, really help me would be if you. would buy a bunch of fighter jets." So I. think it's kind of notorious, right, that Iran still has F4s and F-14s. That's where they got him from was the. Nixon and Ford administration in this. push to do that. And the Shaw was. apparently pretty obsessed with looking. very first world with his very fancy. first world army that he couldn't really. afford. And it helped to destabilize his. regime somewhat. And then I don't know. the full extent of America turning on. him before the revolution, but I know. that by the time of the revolution in. 1979, he was sick with cancer and very.

sick. And the Americans secretly knew. that. CIA knew that, you know, but it. was not public knowledge that it was. whatever stage 4 or whatever. He was. doomed. And so they knew the revolution. was coming and they were trying to. figure out how to handle it. And there. was the revolution was coming anyway. And it wasn't just there's going to be a. change of leadership. When we say. revolution here, we mean mobs in the. street demanding an end to the old. regime in huge numbers, right? A very. large-scale popular revolution. And. they're trying to figure out how to get. the handle on it. Some of Carter's. critics said what he should have had. done was had the military just massacer.

all those people. That'll shut him up. Or like, you know what I mean? They're. trying to figure out what to do. Well, the CIA and the State Department told. Jimmy Carter, listen, this Ayatollah. Kmeni, he's not so bad. We know this. guy. He was part of a group of Shiite. clergy who helped to agitate against. Mosedc in 1953. And so we have at least. some contact and we think that we can. deal with him. >> Did they actually believe that? >> I I think so. Is this incompetence or. malevolence? Like how does this whole.

process happen that you go into this. process of regime change and keep. installing people that are creating more. and more. uh instability and destruction in the. world and then you use that to then. justify invading and starting wars. How. does this happen? >> Well, there's a lot of things and the. whole time we in our discussion here, we'll be talking about a massive. conspiracy of interests at play all the. time. But this is and I've never read a.

bunch of books about this. I probably. should at least interview these guys. Uh. you'd be interested in this if you don't. already know the subject is public. choice theory. It's kind of a branch of. libertarian political economy studies. that says that essentially one of its. major aspects is that there really is no. national interest the way you and I. might think of it sitting here hashing. it out across the table because what. becomes the national interest is the. interest of the people in charge of. making the decisions for the nation. And. so they all ultimately are private.

choices, aren't they? And the national. interest becomes subsumed by what's good. for me now. And so telling all my bosses. they're all wrong is not good for me. now. And on the very basic level, you. know, I've read quite a few books just. from former insiders like Daniel Ellburg. and other people like that. Ellburg. tells a story of where he's the deputy. under secretary of state for making up. nonsense or whatever it is or defense of. the no state, I believe. and his whole. job is making his boss look good whether. he agrees with him or not. And then the.

hope is that next year he'll be in his. boss's position and his boss will move. up one and then he'll his job will be. making his boss look good then and how. and he explains how the truth and. reality just gets washed out of this. Right? Um another famous one or should. be famous is my friend David Hardy who. wrote the best book about the Waco. massacre. He is a great lawyer and he. had been a former Interior Department. cop and he said there's truth and. there's falsity. Like that's the world. we live in. But in government work. there's our position and our position.

takes place on an entirely different. plane than truth and falsity. Our. position is the thing a bunch of people. in a room agreed that they would say and. do as they can in committee like come to. a consensus and then a lot of times once. those decisions are made now to go back. on that decision means that you are. attempting to disgrace the people who. led the decision-making on that thing. and say that they were wrong and they.

shouldn't have done the thing they did. Now they got to do this instead. And so. you see just an absolute unwillingness. to make change. And this is something. that capitalism ultimately like. everybody's got ego problems, but. ultimately the boss has to look at an. accounting sheet and say this isn't. working. So I'm going to have to swallow. my pride or go out of business. Right? In government it's not like that. The. worse they do the better off they are. This is why it was the soldiers in. Vietnam called the military itself, the. army itself the self-licking ice cream. cone because it means that they cause.

chaos but then chaos is their job is to. go and fix that. And so, you know, and. and if you're a government bureaucrat. getting paid way above the market, then. what do you want to do? Go get a job? U. a great example of this I cite in the. book is at the end of the Afghan war, there are multiple military uh officers, like not too too high, but like high. enough to be quoted by the news saying, "Well, now that that's over, we're. looking for other things to do. So, we're going to pivot to Africa and go. find some Islamists there because we are.

looking for ways to stay globally. engaged because of course that's their. interest to do. Whether that's good for. Africa or good for the American people. is just it's kind of a separate question. that they're not really dealing with. And so, I think that's a huge part of. it. I mean, one of the things was. William Sullivan said that, well, Kmeni, he's like the Iranian Gandhi. Well, first of all, he's not a pacifist. But. second of all, didn't Gandhi kick the. British Empire out of India? So, what. are you saying? You're deliberately. putting in a guy who's going to limit.

your influence there and it's going to. declare independence for you from you. How are you going to handle that? Like, they don't seem to think this through. And I I have to say that one of the. great disappointments of growing up is. you find out that the rest of the adults. aren't so smart. They're just regular. dudes like you. And I think a lot of. times state department people might have. very advanced knowledge doesn't mean. they have very advanced wisdom. You know. this is something else Danielle Ellburg. talks about is when you have access to. classified information then you don't.

pay any attention to anybody who doesn't. because what do they know? You know all. these things that they couldn't possibly. be taking into account. So you. immediately close your circle of people. who you listen to. And I'll tell you. great example of this from my own. experience was I interviewed a CIA. analyst uh apparently a pretty important. executive at one time in the terror war. named Cynthia Stoer and I asked her I. forget if it was in the interview or. not. I hope I'm not like speaking out of. school. I believe it was in the. interview that I asked her about well I.

can't remember the exact context but I. asked her about well don't you read. Patrick Coburn? And she goes who's. Patrick Coburn? And I go who's Patrick. Coburn? Patrick Coburn is the most. important Anglo in Iraq. He's the one. who understands all of this stuff more. and better than all of y'all. And he. writes in the Independent. You can read. it for free. Just register with your. email address for God's sake, man. I. can't believe. And she's like, "Who even. is that?". >> So, a lack of basic curiosity, uh, rigor.

of research, understanding the. situation. and she could know a lot of. secret things but without understanding. what he understands she does not. understand what she needs to know. I can. promise you that much. You know I think. it's a basic lack of humility. The ego. grows the power grows. Then you to. self-preserve to maintain power. You. start deluding yourself in that in those. closed rooms. You start shutting. yourself off from the reality of the. world. And then as as your own delusion.

drifts, you're more incentivized to grow. that delusion, incentivized to hide, to. do secrecy, and then it just goes off. And that's that's why I was hoping you. could speak to uh more to Daniel. Ellburg. So the importance of somebody. like that. So it sounds like if we think. about the machinery of how this happens, it feels like heroic whistleblowers are. essential to this process. If we talk. about Snowden and Assange and uh one of. the OGs is Daniel Ellburg. >> who uh just reading here was an American.

military analyst, economist and renowned. whistleblower best known for leaking the. Pentagon papers in 1971. Can you tell me. about who he was and the importance of. him? >> Oh yeah. Well, he's an absolutely. brilliant guy. I I'm proud to say I was. a friend, you know, for 10 15 years. there. I don't know, quite a while. So. he endorsed my first two books. I'm very. proud to say. and um and he did not have. a chance to read Provoked unfortunately, but I know he would have liked it cuz we. were email buddies and I know that he uh.

thought very much along the same lines. as me and John Mirshimer and others, you. know, as as people are probably. familiar. I think we'll get more into. that, but um on that issue, he was. great, but um he was a brilliant genius. and and he was a nuclear war planner. That was his second book was called The. Doomsday Machine, Confessions of a. Nuclear War Planner. And he had. liberated a bunch of documents about. nuclear war as well. But he had decided. with his quote unquote co-conspirator. that they should just focus on Vietnam.

first. That's the thing that it matters. the most right now. And that was the. Pentagon Papers. And then all the papers. that he had hidden away, he gave them to. his brother and his brother lost them. And so then he decided later, you know. what? I remember enough of this stuff. that I can go ahead and just write it. from memory. And he was so brilliant, dude. I mean, I don't know what his IQ. was, but I know his father built the. first u assembly line for the atom bomb. and they asked him if he would do the. same for the H bomb and he refused for. moral reasons. So, that was his. background in the first place and he's.

just such a great guy, man. So, he's a. person who was able to see the situation. like you mentioned like that room and in. that room understand that there's some. shit that's wrong that's going on here. and to be able to speak up. and he was. at Rand, right? His job was writing and. this was when Rand I guess was much more. important and very closely tied to the. Pentagon and their whole thing was like. writing up game theory nuclear warfare. plans. One of the things he did was he. found out and and Jack Kennedy had to. fight like mad. They had to go back and.

forth over and over and over to even get. the war plan from the Pentagon and they. finally got the war plan from the. Pentagon and it said that if we have a. nuclear war with the Soviet Union, we. nuke every single city in the Soviet. Union and China. So that would be I. don't know if that includes all the. Warsaw pack, but it includes all the. republics and China. And the thinking. was that if America and the Soviet Union. destroy each other and Europe, well, we'll be damned if we're going to leave. Earth to those dirty chiccoms. So we're.

going to kill all them, too. And that. was the thinking in the thing. And it. was Ellberg told Kennedy that. And. Kennedy told Ellburg to make sure and. forced the Pentagon to rewrite the plan. and narrow that thing down. So, I mean. that's part of the guy's background. where he comes from. I beg people to. read the pen uh it's called Secrets, a. memoir of Vietnam and the Pentagon. Papers and then also the doomsday. machine. And by the way, his first book, Secrets, begins with his first day on. the job. I was joking around earlier. He's deputy under secretary of state for.

whatever it was. Was it I can't remember. if it state or defense. Maybe it was. defense. It had to have been defense. Forgive me for before. And then the. first thing that happens when he clocks. in that day for his job is the thing. starts coming across the teletype. Ships. attacked in the Tonkan Gulf. And then. he's reading, "Oh, never mind. That was. a mistake." And then he sees the. president run with it anyway. And now. the historian Gareth Porter says that. actually Magnamera lied to BBJ and he. can prove it. I can't cite all the. chapter and verse, but I trust Gareth.

He's great. And he says that actually it. was McNamera lied LBJ when they knew. that it was a mistake. >> And the same thing happened again and. again. You take a little piece of. information. >> and run with them in order to justify. war. That's right. That's going to be a. theme. Absolutely. What what was what. was uh important in the Pentagon Papers? What are some key ideas? >> Okay. So, so the Pentagon papers first. of all was and and he wrote this while. he was working at RAND that he had full. topsec clearance and they were. commissioned by secretary of defense.

magnamera to write a real secret top. secret history of the Vietnam war in the. entire history of our involvement in. Indochina since the end of the second. world war. And so that was what they did. was they wrote like eyes only for the. secretary of defense type material. So, it had everything in there and Ellberg. was in charge of writing it along with. Leslie Gelb who shut his mouth and went. along and later became the chairman of. the Council on Foreign Relations and was. a good dog, right? But anyway, um they. were the ones who wrote it together and. Nellsburg was brave enough to liberate.

the thing and he tried to leak it to the. Senate over and over and over again. Mike Grall eventually started reading it. into the record and then finally the New. York Times got the courage to start. publishing the thing and it showed that. they knew that they couldn't win all. along. They knew that the South. Vietnamese government could not stand. they did not have popular consent that. the insurgency in the south was not just. based on support from the north but. their own indigenous revolution against. what they see you know as intolerable.

foreign intervention and and wanted to. force us out and it's funny cuz McName. later says that I guess he didn't read. the Pentagon papers that no we were just. sure that it was the capitalists versus. the communists like all this stuff about. they didn't want to be ruled over. foreign white devils and that never. occurred to us, you know, like come on. Um, you know, as Chsky said, come on. America invaded South Vietnam. That the. government that was inviting us to stay. was the government that we put in there. or at least after we overthrew the one.

we didn't like, the one we put in there. No different than, as we're going to. talk about, uh, Hammed Carzi inviting us. to please stay in Afghanistan. It's. like, come on, who's zooming who here? Um but um so it showed and that was the. deal and that was why it was such a big. deal and how he made Nixon's enemies. list and all these things even though it. didn't really expose Nixon it exposed. LBJ and and the predecessors but um it. was a huge shock that they have been. lying to us and lying us and lying to us. deliberately knowing that this is got to.

be somebody else's problem. Right? There's a phone call of LBJ saying to a. Republican senator friend of his that I. can't be the first president to lose a. war. So, right, he's just going to retire. first and make it Nixon's problem, right? Same as George W. Bush said, "Oh, the end of Iraq, well, that'll just have. to be up to other presidents to decide. Not my responsibility. All I did was do. it.". You know, and that's how they are. And. they have that's their is this is also. part of the economics of democracy too. where they have uh such and I'm not.

arguing for the opposite but I'm just. saying the reality is you have such. short terms of office you have very high. time preference right instead of like. working on long-term projects about. what's the future of mankind going to. look like a 100 years from now you're. looking at a much shorter time horizon. you know including who's going to. finance your next election so that. you'll have any say so whatsoever and as. Yoda and Palpatine agree that like all. who have power are afraid to lose it. because what if the other guy had it. instead? It would be worse. Everybody.

knows that which is of course a huge. part of the story of the American empire. here, you know. Well, but fundamentally. that's cowardly, right? So what what we. want from leaders from great leaders is. courage. And courage means making. difficult decisions that are going to. make the world a better place long term, the country a better country long term. And that means if you start a war, that. means understanding the full cost of. that war and how it's going to have to. end. And then if if you understand the. full cost of war, you're not going to.

start it. >> Yep. >> Right. Uh so how does how do we go from. the CIA 1979 the Shaw Ayatollah. >> Mhm. >> Nixon. What is the thread that now starts. inching towards the '9s and. >> right. >> towards 911 in Iraq? I know there's so. much, but we're going to do it, man. Um, so here's what happens. America goes. ahead and allows Ayatollah to get on the. plane in Paris, France, and go home. Now, I remember even as a kid saying, "But aren't the French our friends?

Wouldn't they have checked with us. before doing that?" In fact, I just. recently found the clip of Peter. Jennings interviewing him. And the. smartest thing Peter Jennings can think. of to say is, "So, how do you feel on. your triumphant return, Mr. Ayatollah?". Right? Which USA is just completely. aiding in a betting, right? These are. shots they called and made happen, right? they sent him home to inherit the. thing and then they did work with him. Uh people forget man and I was just very. young at that time. Um but I you know. was raised kind of in the atmosphere of. all of this and even back then people.

conflated the revolution itself with the. hostage crisis as just one story. It all. is spoken in one breath. But in fact the. revolution was in February of 1979 and. the hostage crisis didn't break out. until November. So what was happening in. the meantime? Well, one of the things. was the Americans were warning the new. Iranian regime about threats from the. new dictator of Iraq, Saddam Hussein, who had just overthrown the government. in a bloody coup d'eta. No revolution. there. And you can watch the video of.

this. Have you ever seen the video? Saddam's overthrowing Iraq. And he he's. got a huge stadium of guys and he just. starts calling names and everybody whose. name he's calls has to go out back and. get shot. Like it's gnarly, man. I think. that video is a. dark study of human nature. It's. terrifying. >> Oh, it is. That's ugly, man. That's. >> because everybody is afraid and of. there's a disgusting face as Satan has. I don't know. I don't know if if there's. a sadistic.

>> Sure. He was a psychopath, man. No. question. He was a brute of a dictator, right? There's a lot of El Presidentedes. in the world. Not all of them like train. their sons to torture people from the. time they're young and stuff. Oh fuck. All the cowards in that room. But then. you have to ask yourself, what would you. do if you were in that room? >> Yeah. You've already been bested at that. point. I mean, they could all rush the. stage, but that ain't going to do them. any good, you know? >> But before you, how did you get to that. room? >> Yeah. >> And then that's why you have to give. props to whistleblowers. You have to.

give props to people that stand up and. risk their life in situations like that, which in those parts of the world is. even harder than it is in the United. States of America. And you know, by the. way, I usually forget to mention this. when I tell this story. Takes another. few seconds to mention that Saddam. Hussein had been groomed by the CIA. since the 1950s on and off. And he had. been part of different dictator regimes. on and off. He'd been in exile in Cairo. for a little while and this kind of. thing. And then in the 70s leading up to. the coup, I think it was really closer. to the Soviet Union. And um and so we'll.

get to the I guess I'll mention it now. The huge irony of the fact that in the. Iran Iraq war. it was America supporting Saddam Hussein. and his Soviet military versus Iran and. it's American one, right? Um. >> the absurdity of this is insane. >> Well, I'm skipping ahead a step, but I. just like that part. Um but so okay, so. America supports the revolution in 79 in. February.

They're warning this guy, hey, you. better look out for Saddam Hussein and. his intentions. And we're going to get. back to that in one moment here. Um, and. they were also warning him about the. threat from the Soviet Union. Now, why. is that? Well, that's because, skip over Iran. Now, we're talking about. Afghanistan and Zabin Brzinsk's policy. that let's support the mujaheden in. Afghanistan in order to try to provoke. Soviet intervention there. And so.

there's a memo and people can find this. at scorton.org/bear use if you want to. look at it. It's um from You want to go. ahead pull it up? So if if you allow me to read uh. President Jimmy Carter's July 3rd, 1979. finding in quotes authorizing covert. support for the mujahedin in Afghanistan. >> secret sensitive. >> and the important part is provide. unilaterally or through third countries. as appropriate support to Afghan. insurgents. This is now a finding is an.

order from a president to the CIA to do. something. That's what a finding means. So this is an order to CIA to do this. Now on that order they did start pouring. in support to the mujadine. Now I have. to tell you that my best uh experts on. this like Eric Margalles and I got this. also from reading Andre Sakurov the. famous Soviet nuclear physicist and. dissident that they both said that it. wasn't American support for the. mujaheden that really provoked the. Russians into invading Afghanistan.

because what it was was the sock puppet. dictator was a basket case and he had. created so many enemies that he just. couldn't hold it together. So the first. thing the Soviets did when they invaded. in December of 79 was take him out back. and shoot him and replace him with a new. guy. So that was really the cause of the. Soviet intervention there. They had a. commi sock puppet regime. It was not one. of the Soviet republics, right? But they. had a sock puppet regime there, but they. they wanted to, you know, um maintain it. and it was falling apart. So they rushed.

to intervene. However, Lex, the point. still remains that the United States of. America was trying to bait the Soviet. Union into invading Afghanistan. And. we're going to get back to why this so. relevant to the Iran thing in just one. second, but let's stop and talk about. this for a second. Why would they do. that? And they would do that also. because of Vietnam. Because at the end. of Vietnam, Americans had what the. government considered to be a mental. illness, Vietnam syndrome. That meant. that Americans didn't want to do this. anymore. contain communism at this cost.

and who really cares if Vietnam goes. commie we do business with them now you. know and so um people weren't into it. anymore so this is where Zign Brzinski. and his uh he was national security. adviser under Jimmy Carter and uh his I. guess counterpart at defense a guy named. Walter Sloum they came up with this. brilliant idea that what we'll do is we. will bait the Soviets into overexpansion. Now, we don't want them to invade West.

Germany, but the Afghans are expendable. So, if we can bait the Soviets into. Afghanistan and bog them down, we will. be adding straw to the camel's back. This is a way to inflict because by. then, think of it, the word Vietnam, that's not even the name of a country. over there somewhere anymore. Vietnam at. that time, that word means some. horrible, stupid, no wind quagmire thing. that you shouldn't have done. you shot. yourself in the foot and the leg and. lost your friend Jimmy down the street.

and everything and for we don't want to. do that. You know, that was what Vietnam. meant to America was like, "God dang, what a mistake that was." So now they're. saying, "Let's do that to the Reds.". Okay, we'll bog them down, bleed them to. bankruptcy, and force them out the hard. way and and hurt them in doing that. So. that's what they were trying to do. That. was the wisdom behind the operation in. the first place. And now if you go click. back one to Brazinski, you'll see where. and he later misprinski.

but. >> national security advisers big new. Brzinsk's memo to President Carter on. December 26th 1979 regarding the Soviet. invasion of of Afghanistan. >> And the important part here I mean. there's a lot it's a bit but if you go. down you will see where oh here this. could become a Soviet Vietnam while it. could become a Soviet Vietnam. In other. words, see they're already talking about. in that context here in writing. We see. and it's from Robert Gates's first. memoir, by the way, where he says it was. Brazinski and Sloukum, by the way.

That's my source for that when I say. that those two were the ones really. innovating this policy. Um, and he says. the initial effects of the invention are. likely to be adverse for us for the. following reasons. And then he says that. it'll make the hawks talk about how we. better do something about Iran. And he. says this could bring us into a. head-to-head confrontation with the. Soviets. So this is very interesting, Lex, because well, one, this is why. America's passing intelligence to the. Ayatollah about threats from the. Soviets. We think that now that Iran is.

essentially destabilized because of the. revolution and we just deliberately or. at least were trying to and apparently. succeeded in a sense in baiting them. into invading Afghanistan. Now we're. worried that they're too expansionists. and that they're going to roll into. Persia next and then they'd be right on. the Persian Gulf and we can't have that. So that was when Jimmy Carter announced. in his speech in 1980 the Carter. doctrine that said that the Persian Gulf. is now an American lake and we will take.

any move by any power read the USSR to. move into the Persian Gulf as an attack. on the United States itself. Right? were. like bringing the Gulf those waters into. NATO, right? Giving a full war guarantee. to keep the Soviets. They And by the. way, a regime Oh, I'm sorry. I'm. skipping one. See, go back. I'm forgive. me for the It's hard to to stay in line. here. The hostage crisis breaks out in. November 79 because David Rockefeller. from of course Standard Oil of New.

Jersey aka Exxon and Aramco and all. those things. Um the chairman of the. Chase Manhattan Bank at that time, he. was very close with Jimmy Carter and he. convinced Carter to let the Shaw into. the United States for cancer treatment. That was what caused the riot at the. embassy and the seizure of the hostages. Now, I don't know and and I'm sure there. are books about this that I just haven't. read yet, you know, kind of thing that. explain whether it really was the IRGC. that took the lead in that or whether it. was the students who did it or what, but. obviously the government held the. hostages and kept the thing going. So,

they bear responsibility for that. But. the point being that America had been. trying to work with the Ayatollah up. until then. The idea was not that, oh, Shiite fundamentalist Islam says that. all white Christians from North America. must lay down dead right now because. that's their religious belief. Look at. them ranting, we're the great Satan and. burning our flag. And then but so when. so many people when the story begins. with they're calling us great Satan and. burning our flag, then well, they just. hate us and so we're just going to have.

to do something about that. And you. know, I I remember meeting a guy one. time who said, "Listen, Al Qaeda hates. us for all these complicated reasons.". And he explained them. And then he goes, "But not Iran. They just hate us." I. remember when I was a boy, they were. burning our flag and calling us Satan. So it's like, "Yeah, but well, they had. a reason, too. Not that it justifies. them doing anything sinful or criminal, but I'm just saying they also had. reasons for reacting the way that they. reacted." America had launched a coup in. 53 from that same embassy. And by saying.

that they were going to cure the Shaw's. cancer seemed to be an indication to. them that we were going to try to. reinstall him in power and cancel the. revolution. And so they were preempting. that. Again, not a justification for. everything that happened there or. whatever, but just to tell the whole. story in a way that I've told that story. people before. Like I never knew that. I. always thought that it all happened in. one big show, you know. And never do. they admit unless sometimes the. Republicans accuse Carter of this. They'll tell the part about that Carter. was so naive as to send the Ayatollah. home. although that's usually always.

left out. Um, but so now he announces. the Carter doctrine, giving a war. guarantee to Iran that he now officially. hates and is holding our hostages and. completely humiliating him. Right. And. there's Operation Eagle Claw where they. sent forces into Iran and that was a it. was supposed to be a rescue mission that. ended up in disaster where the planes. and the helicopters crashed into each. other. They were already leaving anyway. cuz it was going to be botched. and then. they crashed on the way out. And so that.

was a big humiliation for Carter as. well. And then, oh, and I should also. tell you that um Gareth just found this. is a classified document um that he only. found in the State Department records. that showed that just after the Carter. doctrine speech, Brazinski in a private. meeting with the Saudi foreign minister. and also with his deputy Warren. Christopher who was later Clinton's. secretary of defense, he admitted that. we don't think there's really a Soviet. threat to Iran. Bazinski himself admitted that. So the. pretext for the Carter doctrine was fake.

and he admitted it himself. They weren't. really afraid of that even though they. were pretending to be afraid of that as. a result of the Soviet invasion of. Afghanistan that they were trying to. provoke. >> And we should also give a shout out to. Gareth Porter. He has uh written about. the Vietnam War books including Perils. of Dominance and Balance of Power and. the Road to War in Vietnam. >> I have to say I believe that he is the. most important journalist of the war on. terrorism era. I call him Gareth the. Great. He's a good friend of mine. I've. interviewed him 300 something times on.

my show about essentially everything. he's written since 2007. He is the best. of the best of the best. >> It's not just the war in Vietnam. It's. he he writes also about the continued. >> absolutely specialized in Iraq, Afghanistan, exposing the entire fraud. of David Petraeus and his career. He. wrote the book manufactured crisis on. the Iranian nuclear program. That is by. none the the very best book on that. >> You're absolutely right. Vietnam, Cambodia, Syria, Iran, and uh the war on. terror. All things he's written.

extensively about. >> Gareth Porter the Great, man. Absolutely. great. >> I learned so much from him. I I couldn't. begin to explain. >> Fair enough. So, the story continues. >> Yes. >> Carter. >> So, another aspect of the Carter. doctrine was that Carter gave the green. light to Saddam Hussein. to invade Iran. Now, first thing is why. Saddam Hussein want to invade Iran? It. ain't just because he likes doing what. Jimmy Carter says. He had his own. reasons. Now, picture your map over. Iraq. I know you got one in your head.

there. Everything from Baghdad over east. to Iran and down to Kuwait. That is what. you could call Shiastan. Predominantly. Shiite Iraq, right? And then there's 60%. of the population. Super majority. In. the north you have the Kurds who are. Sunnis but their Kurds a separate. ethnicity than the Arabs. And then you. have the Sunni Arabs who are another. 20%. Well, Saddam Hussein was a secular. Sunni Arab leading essentially like like. on the Simpsons the Kami Nazis, the Both.

party who are like sort of both a little. just a fascist state essentially, right? With Arab characteristics or whatever. Um and but uh and and not an entirely. sectarian one. He had Christians and. Kurds and Shiites in his government and. things like that. It was not, you know, like just a caricature or whatever. It. was a balance of power act. But after. the Iranian revolution, Saddam had real. reason to fear that the Shiite. revolution was going to spread to Iraq.

and that Iraqi Shiites, at least the. armed and convinced ones, would choose. their religious sect and their alliance. with Iran on that basis over their. national and ethnic sect as Iraqis and. Arabs, right? Separate from the. Persians. So, and he had real reason to. believe that, including that members of. the Dawa party and people loyal to the. Hakeim family were uh Abdul Aziz. al-Hakim and his people. They left to go. to Iran and they chose Iran's side in.

the war. So, Saddam Hussein's solution. to that was to conscript all these. people and force them into his army and. march them east against Iran and use. them in that way. And this led to an. absolutely brutal World War I. maybe. Russia Ukraine style trench warfare. tanks artillery and there's planes and. and ships and it was a hell of a war for. 9 years all through the 1980s as the. United States almost entirely backed. Saddam Hussein except for when they.

backed the Ayatollah remember Iran. Contra and during Iran Contra what did. they do they went to the Israelis and. they said hey you're still friends with. the government in Iran you guys don't. mind the Ayatollah one bit and have. maintained your friendship there. We. want to sell them some missiles and try. to get the hostages out and then take. the rest of the proceeds from the. missiles and give them to the Contras in. Nicaragua. And this is what became the. great Iran Contra scandal.

>> And so we should also say and and you. highlight the importance of. understanding Iran Contra. So this here. reading a major political scandal in the. United States during the mid1 1980s. senior officials in President Ronald. Reagan's administration facilitated the. secret sale of arms to Iran which was. under an arms embargo with the proceeds. being used to find uh Contra rebels. fighting the Sandinista's government in. Nicaragua despite Congress explicitly. prohibiting such funding. >> Yep. And this is of course supposedly a.

side story, but a huge part of the side. story is it absolutely was true, as the. great Gary Webb reported in the Dark. Alliance series and in his great book. Dark Alliance, that and many other great. journalists as well, that the CIA had a. massive operation to bring cocaine into. the United States by the truckload and. plane load to sell it to poor Americans, blacks especially in LA. But also, yes, it's true. They even made a Tom Cruz. movie after years of calling us. conspiracy cooks and all this. The movie. is about a guy named Barry Seal whose.

job it was to fly guns and money down. there and cocaine up here uh for the. Contra for the CIA and into Bill. Clinton's Arkansas where he was read in. on this. And the operation was run out. of the vice president's office, George. HW Bush. And that much is true. in the. same they had the I know less about but. they had this is where all the cocaine. from Miami Vice was coming into uh. Florida in the same way and this is. where the crack epidemic came from in. South LA and throughout the country.

really in in many places and they just. don't give a damn about us man Congress. said you can't have any money to fund. the contress and they said yeah but we. want to anyway so this is how they did. it. >> so the CIA would help orchestrate this. kind of transport of drugs. >> absolutely right and And then they. completely destroyed the heroic Gary. Webb for exposing this. And they didn't. murder him, but they drove him to. suicide. And you know, his his good. friend Robert Perry, the great. journalist, verify that. No, it really. was a suicide. People thought it was. suspicious cuz he shot himself twice,

but that does happen sometimes where. people flinch on the first one, but it. was his father's gun and he was totally. depressed and he signed his house over. to his wife and somebody stole his. motorcycle and he was like at the at the. and but they had run him out of his job. at the San Jose Mercury News. They first. ran him to the Hollywood beat and then. he eventually he just quit and went to. become an investigator for the. California state legislature. >> So the CIA doesn't have to kill you. directly. They can psychologically. destroy you. >> That's right. Yeah. They put the gun in. his mouth either way um for doing the. right thing. Uh but anyway, and and.

didn't get any facts wrong. The only. thing that anyone had to attack him on. was like the graphics editor put like a. phrase out of context big on the page or. something in the newspaper. You know. what I mean? It was like something silly. that made it sound like he was saying. the purpose of the mission was to. destroy the black community when that he. never said that. What he said was they. didn't give a damn about those people. I. don't even know if he addressed that, right? But he certainly wasn't saying. that was what it was about. It was about. funding the Contras. But anyway, so they. found their separate ways of doing it. And this is one of the things that made.

me like this is I don't even have any. idea where I first learned this, but I. knew this while Reagan was still in. office or at least by the time Bush. Senior was in office when I was still. just like maybe a freshman in high. school or younger than that. I knew that. Ronald Reagan was a dope pusher. The. same guy with the just say no and the. same guy with the massively increased. penalties for people engaging in just. simply the possession much less the sale. and trade and drugs. And so there are. people who went to prison for decades. for life essentially and literally for. just possession of the same drugs that.

the government was bringing in. And so. how are you ever going to believe in a. security force like that again? I never. have. I don't know why you'd even need. to see a Waco massacre or any other or. an Iraq war or any other thing to detest. these people. That's who they are. You. know, I had this um it's the only part I. really remember about it, but uh there's. this great film producer named Kevin. Booth. He was Bill Hicks's best friend. and producer and he did a documentary. about the drug war where they show this. guy and he goes, "Oh, they're all in. prison and they're filming them through. the gate and they're all yelling and.

whatever. You can't really make out. much, right? They're all like yelling. over each other." And one guy finally. like makes everybody be quiet and he. looks at the camera and he goes, "Listen, I'm doing 35 years cuz I had a. few rocks in my pocket. Does that sound. right to you?". I was like, "Dude, it was Ronald. Reagan's cocaine in his pocket." Like, that guarantees a full pardon, man. Right. What are we talking about? That's. not fair. It's a dark aspect of human. nature that the people that try to, if. we talk about drugs, to ban drugs.

And really, anyone who tries to ban a. thing are often secretly participating. in doing that thing. >> Bootleggers and Baptist, you know. Um, just on a small tangent, sure. Have you. ever since you're a Texan, have you ever. met Bill Hicks? >> No, man. I learned about Bill Hicks like. a month after he died and so they. started playing Sane Man on the Access. Channel all the time and I was like, "Oh. my god, who's this guy?" And then. they're like, "Oh, he just died.". >> But I he has been a huge influence on.

me, you know, in in a lot of ways. So, I'm very much a Hixon. I apologize for. that. It's good to do a shout out back. to the drug war and that involvement. from Carter and on and Reagan and uh. Iran. >> Well, yeah, let's go back to Iran cuz. the cocaine is really tied up in the. contra end of the scandal. Point being, America's back in Saddam, except when. they're helping Israel back Iran and by. selling them these missiles. And there. even I don't have my footnote anymore,

but it's findable, I'm sure, where they. did talk about, you know, what we do is. we support one side till they start. getting ahead a little bit, then we. support the other side a little bit more. and go or we authorize the Israelis to. increase support for Iran and play them. back and forth against each other. So. that's just not just, you know, offshore. balancing and peace time. That's. balancing in wartime, encouraging them. to keep killing each other, which is. some pretty horrific policy to do. >> Could you also comment during this stage. and this thread will continue? What role. does Israel have to play in this in this. part of the story with Iran?

>> Well, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. much about what they were saying about. America's Iraq policy during that time, but I know that they were still friends. with the Ayatollah, and we're not going. to get to them switching gears on the. Ayatollah until Rabbine in 1993. So hold. that thought. So the the war is still. going on. We have to mention the. chemical weapons too. >> Yes. >> America bought them. Taxpayers bought. them. There was a huge Iraq gate scandal. it was called where people were put on. trial for the money but then they their. defense was but the government made me. do it. What are you talking about? This.

was a whole thing to do and they were it. was German chemical weapons I believe. and maybe some French but that were. bought with supposed agricultural loans. from the United States to Iraq. And they. had a sophisticated biological weapons. program too uh with anthrax and the. rest. And the Americans sent them the. precursors for the germs that he would. need. During the Iran Iraq war in 1980. to 1988, Saddam Hussein's regime used. chemical weapons extensively against. Iranian forces and Kurdish civilians. Most notably in the 1988 Halabja attack.

that killed an estimated 5,000 people. and injured 20,000 more. There is. substantial documentation that Western. governments, especially the US and some. of its allies, provided Iraq with dual. use technology, intelligence, and. materials which facilitated Iraq's. chemical weapons program. Y and it goes. on, >> let me drop two good footnotes for. people here. The first one would be. Shane Harris, who's now at the. Washington Post, you know, very official. national security beat reporter. He. wrote a piece about this at foreign.

policy.com a few years back where he. goes into extensive details. So, as far. as like authoritative sources, there you. go. Okay. Nothing conspiratorial about. this narrative at all. But then you want. to do a deeper dive onto it, then go to. fff.org. and it's this is the future freedom. foundation and there they have a page. and I'm sorry I always get the headline. wrong, but it's something like where did. Saddam get his WMDs or where did Saddam. get his chemical weapons? Um, you know.

what you can do? You can go site. fff.org or and then that way you search. just that site and then you can do. chemical weapons Iraq and I bet you'll. find it. Yeah, right there. Where did Iraq get. its weapons of mass destruction and I. had mentioned this I I guess on the. Tucker show and so I I actually talked. with Hornberger and I I went back and I. found and I made sure that all of those. links are up to date and work for each. of those stories. So people can go. through and and take a very close look. at those are just articles, never mind.

all the books about it and stuff which. there are plenty. So, this is a set of. links uh assembled by Jacob. Hearnburgger. The title is where did. Iraq get its weapons of mass destruction. on fff.org. that people should check out. >> And then, oh, there's the there's the. Shane Harris and Matthew M8 CIA files. prove America helped Saddam as he gassed. Iran. >> The US knew Hussein was launching some. of the worst chemical attacks in history. and still gave him a hand. And now, by. the official rules of confirmation bias,

when Shane Harris admits something that. I'm accusing, that means it's definitely. true. If I ever disagree with him, well, he's a liar from the post. Got that? >> Okay. Good to know. That's how truth. works. Good. >> Of course. Um, >> I'm so there there's your authoritative. source, everybody. Shane Harris from the. Post. >> All right. >> And that's a a special inside joke for. fans of where the Buffalo roams too. Remember Harris from the Post? You ever. seen that? >> Mm-m. It's the original Fear and. Loathing in Las Vegas with Bill Murray.

>> I didn't realize there was original Fear. and Loathing in Las Vegas with Bill. Murray. What? >> Really? >> Where the Buffalo Romes? I promise you. will have a good time. And there's a. joke in there about I'm Harris from the. Post. He's pretending to be Harris from. the Post and he's hanging out in the. bathroom with Richard Nixon. >> And I forgot the conversation. It's. funny as hell though. >> Similar type of wild journey of Fear and. Loathing. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. I I got to admit I don't. remember the story that well. It's very. different than Fear and Loathing, but. it's also very good. Well, I know what. I'm doing tonight. Okay, cool. Uh,

>> we're in the Buffalo Rome. It's good. Everyone will like it. I promise. >> Okay. >> Underrated Bill Murray. >> He's forever underrated, actually. Genius actor. Okay. Uh, and so back to. Chemical Weapons and and uh Hussein, Saddam Hussein. >> So, okay, the war finally comes to an. end in 1989. and uh at the same time the Soviets are. withdrawing in Afghanistan. and we're. going to get back to them in a minute. But uh the war comes to an end and for. the next couple of years Saddam Hussein.

is in a struggle over war debts with his. creditors Kuwait, Saudi and UAE who are. demanding all their money back that they. gave him for the war they loaned to him. for the war. Now, of course, he feels. like he bought that war partially in. their defense. And so, and also at this. time, oil is trading at $12 a barrel. So, he has no ability to repay them, rebuild his country, or do any kind of. thing. And they're completely putting. the screws to him. And on top of that,

this is disputed whether they were. literally the Kuwaitis literally slant. drilling under the border or whether. it's really that's kind of shorthand I. think usually for they were. overproducing from shared oil wells that. straddled the border. And when you have. a contract that where your property and. my property but up next to each other. and we got mineral rights but we have a. shared oil well down there then we have. a quota how much we pump and you're not. allowed to cheat and pump more out of. our shared well than me in any given. month or whatever as per the contract. That's kind of how that thing works. So.

in this case it's the same thing over an. international border. in the Kuwaitis at. least. They're also accused, and I know. less about this, but they're accused. also of using slant drilling techniques. that they've been taught by Americans to. drill that way and steal Iraqi oil, you. know, from the margin. So, Hussein's. pissed about this at the same time. they're putting the screws to them over. calling in the war debts. Now, um I. don't believe that this was a deliberate. trap, but in effect, it was. I think.

what happened was it was a matter of in. you know the left hand didn't know what. the right hand was doing. There was no. real unified policy that had been sent. down from on high how to handle this. evidently and so the CIA and sentcom. were encouraging which had been created. as part of the Carter doctrine were. encouraging Kuwait to be intrigent. against Saddam and tell him to go to. hell. Well, the State Department James. A. Baker through Ambassador Glasby and. through Margaret Tutweiler and John. Kelly were sending signals that actually.

go ahead, we don't really care. And we. just celebrated April Glasby Day the. other day we do every year July 25th. where she told Saddam Hussein, "Listen, it's the same thing as when I was the. ambassador to Kuwait, the Iraq issue and. your border dispute is not associated. with America and we have no position on. this. You're going to have to settle. it." And now we always had the Iraqi. version of that story published in the. New York Times, but then we got from. Manning and Assange, we got the State. Department's version of that document.

And so it's a little less explicit as. far as how it makes the Americans look, but it's essentially the same. And in. there, she says, "Now listen, George. Bush wanted me to emphasize to you that. he does not want a war in the Gulf." And. so Steven Walt from Harvard University. at foreign policy.com. he said now listen in diplomatic. language. you know these things are are you know. mathematical formulas. You got to be. very careful how you say these things.

Saddam Hussein wasn't anticipating a. war. He knew he's going to roll right. into Kuwait. They couldn't stop him. He. was counting on a coup domain. So when. she says the president doesn't want a. war, it sounds like she's saying the. president won't go to war with you if. you do this and that he very well could. have read it that way. And that was at. the very least a flashing yellow light. if not a green light to go right ahead. And we know that um again John Kelly and. Margaret Tutweiler also made statements. essentially plan downplaying American.

concerns about what was happening. I. should give a quick shout out since you. mentioned him Steven Walt. I had a few. email exchanges with him. He's a. co-author uh with John Mirshimer on one. of his books. >> He's a prominent just reading here. prominent American political scientist. and currently professor of international. affairs at the Harvard Kennedy School. He's the best of them man. He's Mir. Shimemer's partner on a lot of things. They're basically considered like the. co-ans of the realist school of foreign. policy in America. So they're like, you.

know, Henry Kissinger, real politique. only without the bloody hands and the, you know, the hawkish instinct. They're, you know, I think both would be relative. hawks on China compared to me, for. example. They're not libertarian. non-interventionists, but they're very. skeptical of a lot of this misuse. You. know, both of them oppose the Iraq war, for example, in the first place and that. kind of thing. >> If I may, uh, I can never sing enough. praises to John Mir Shimemer. Of course, his work is very important. Uh he's. fearless as an as an academic, as a.

writer, as a historian, but also as a. human being. I got a chance to know him. Uh we had dinner. We had many. conversations. We've exchanged a lot of. emails and he's a sweetheart. >> Yeah, he's a great guy. I email back and. forth him, too. I'm trying to get him on. next week, but and he just killed it on. Tucker the other day, too. He was. fantastic on there. He set such a great. example, you know. >> Well, it's just a good human being. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Well, like a real deep compassion. Yeah. And sometimes when you cover these. topics and you just like you said, you. realize the adults in the room. >> Yeah. And people call him some kind of.

hater and it's like come on. That's cuz. that's all you got. That's the only. reason you could call him that is cuz. you got no other thing to say, you know. >> Yeah. A real heart of gold. This is a. really special guy. Anyway, sorry. >> Yeah. Yeah. No problem. So, um, Iraq. war. So America gives like a flash and. yellow light to Saddam Hussein, their. client. that to go ahead and take back the. northern oil fields. And oh, I left out. one piece was when I was talking about.

the left hand and the right hand. Wolfwitz worked for Dick Cheney at the. Pentagon at that time and he was always. an Iraq hawk and he had warned maybe not. knowing that the CIA or or that Carter. was encouraging it explicitly, but um uh. he had warned that Saddam was going to. attack Iran back in 1980. So he was. always an Iraq hawk and he was very. worried that Iraq was going to invade. Kuwait and he convinced Dick Cheney that. we should make a statement telling. Saddam not to do it. But then um oh, I'm.

going to think of his name in just one. moment. Pete Williams, who later became. the NBC news reporter, he was the. Pentagon spokesman at that time. Isn't. that funny how that works? Uh if you go. back in time, that's how it worked. Um. he was Pentagon spokesman. He made a. statement where he seemed to walk back. their warning, which was probably just. incompetence, right? He didn't know. exactly what he was doing, but the way. that he phrased it was softer than the. way they had phrased it. So then they. were like, "Oh man." and they tried to. get George Bush to write a letter. I. believe it was like this that Bush sent. a letter but then they thought I believe.

Cheney and Wolawitz thought it's too. consiliatory. It's not clear enough that. we're saying don't you do it so send. another letter but by then it was too. late and Hussein went ahead and rolled. in. So this is from all very elite. accounts of the story from the inside. you know these different books and. whatever I read and all that um this. version of the story and then you can. see if you check the timeline where for. the first few days they weren't. threatening to do anything about it. Colon pal chaired the national security. council meeting he was chairman of the.

joint chiefs of staff and they announced. the first day well they better just not. move on Saudi Arabia. You roll into Riad. you got trouble with us bub. But they. were essentially prepared to accept the. invasion of Kuwait. It's crazy that. Cheney was involved with all this. because then the story continues. >> So yeah, he's he's secretary of defense. at that time. >> So wild. >> Um he um. and he was the only one in the. government at that time who was not from. the Reagan administration. He had been.

in the Congress. All the rest of these. guys were Reagan's guys. The vice. president was now the president. Coen. Powell had been national security. adviser for Reagan. He's now chairman of. the Joint Chiefs of Staff. And then you. have James Baker was Treasury Secretary. is now secretary of state. Like this is. Brent Skraftoft. I forgot maybe he was. deputy national security adviser under. Reagan. Now he's national security. adviser under HW Bush. So this is the. third Reagan term without Reagan. basically is and Cheney would have been. the newer guy and tended to be more.

hawkish. And in this case was like. hawkish trying to stop the war from. breaking out in the first place in that. sense was more concerned about the the. danger of the thing and whatever. Sorry. if this is a distracting question, but. when we talk about the the birth and the. evolution of the neocon movement, how. does it connect to this? >> Yeah, we can mention here that, you. know, there are when I go through and. and look like who were all the worst. hawks on Iraq war one. Many of them were. the neoconservatives. So, we probably. shouldn't get into that whole like. biography of a movement here or. whatever, but they certainly were very. much in support of this intervention in.

Desert Storm or Rock War as I call it. I'm trying to get that to catch on cuz. we're a rock war 3 and a half or four. now. So, like going to have to keep. these things straight somehow. >> But some of the same characters that. were responsible for Iraq War 2. >> That's right. Because of course. Clinton's in there for a while, but then. it's President Bush's son. It's the next. president. He brings Cheney and Powell. with him and then all this other stuff. Behold your be patient. So what happens. is Margaret Thatcher comes to town and.

she gives, this is her people's term for. it, she gives Bush Senior a backbone. transplant. and she says to him, "Don't you go. wobbly on me now, Bush." In other words, calling out his manhood and she's a. woman so and from a smaller, weaker. country. And so what's he going to do. now? And that's when he says, "Yeah, this will not stand." Just out of his. own personal embarrassment. Speaking of. Bill Hicks, this was a Bill Hicks joke. that this was the wimp president. It was. a cover Newsweek wimp president and. apparently that's stuck in this guy's.

craw a little bit. I'll show you who's a. wimp. And he had to go and really feel. like he had to do something about that. And when Margaret Thatcher called him. out instead of being prudent as he would. say and patient and conservative, he. went, "Nuhuh. I'm tougher than you, lady. I'll show you how tough I am. I'll. do a big tough thing." But meanwhile, what did America care about Kuwait? Right? They had uh Britain had interests. in Kuwaiti oil and the Kuwaiti royal. family, his highness Aljabber had. investments in British debt. But what do.

I care about that Lex Friedman? Not one. bit. You know what I mean? But that was. a big part of how the war started. So. after the first three days, they said, "We're not going. It's we're going to. they're not going to invade Saudi. We're. warning them. They better not invade. Saudi or whatever." And it was after. that that they decided, "Okay, now we. are going." And then once they decided. that they refused to negotiate in good. faith for the rest of the time. And Nam. Chosky did the best of documenting this. But what did he document? He documented. like 10 different sources from the. summer of 1990 through January 91 where.

the Americans refused the the Bush. administration in Washington DC refused. time after time after time after time. after time to negotiate in good faith. with Saddam to get him out of there. peacefully because once the gauntlet was. thrown down now we have a big set piece. battle. Now we're going to go in there. and we're going to rock him. And I have. the quote from Brent Skraftoft in there. This was long an accusation from some. liberal types that you might dismiss, but it is true. It was literally an. explicitly stated part of their thinking.

was we have to defeat. Vietnam syndrome. The reluctance of the. American people to do things like this. We got to give them one that we can do, that'll be short, that'll be sweet, that'll be fun, that'll be easy, that we. can hold a big ass parade and be. victorious again like the old days. rebuild that Marshall spirit and make. that normaly in America, not the. postvietnam anti-militarist malaise that. you remember from the 70s and 80s. Now.

it's time to get back to work remaking. the world and give give the American. people something to believe in again. And Bush Senior then after the fact. said, "By God, we've kicked Vietnam. syndrome once and for all." This is a. huge part of it. And if you think about. Iraq war one to this day, people still. think of it as like short and sweet and. we use all this space age technology and. and we whooped them good, right? And. Colonel McGregor and Daniel Davis and. and General McMaster then of lower rank.

They went in there and won the big tank. battle of 73 Easting and showed the. superiority of American tanks versus. Soviet tanks and all of these things. that were so much fun for them, such a. big deal for them at that time that they. wanted to again for our nation's overall. long-term interest or what was good for. them, their donors, their benefactors, and the the the essentially the. psychological warfare campaign they. wanted to wage against the American. people that this is what we're here for.

We go and rescue helpless little. countries like his royal highness al. Jabbers's monarchy in Kuwait so we can. reinstall the monarchy because everybody. knows how much superior they are to. fascist dictatorships like the Iraqis. have that we've supported for the last. decade by the way including helping him. gas people not just while he gassed. people while he's gassing his own people. supposedly the Kurds and the Anfall. campaign and the along with the Iranians.

and and the rest. Um, but now he's. Hitler. Now he's going to roll on Saudi. He's going to take over. Next thing you. know, he's going to take over all of the. Middle East resources. He's going to. build up a thousand-year Reich and roll. on Paris. Huh? Saddam Hussein is. And that was the. way that they put it. And they. absolutely lied us into war. They. claimed that he had lined up his massive. armored tank divisions on the Saudi. border and was preparing to roll on. Riad. And that was a lie. It was a St. Petersburg, Florida Times, uh, hired a.

Soviet company to or maybe the Soviet. government to provide the satellite. photos and show that there's nothing but. empty desert out there. You know, they. had sent a couple patrols near the. border, whatever. There's nothing like. armored divisions preparing to expand. the war into Saudi Arabia. They knew. they were lying about that. And in fact, the St. Petersburg, Florida Times. published that like a week and a half. before the invasion. and AP Reuters, CS, CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, whatever, all.

refused to run it and just buried it. Then the other thing was a major part of. this was, and it's amazing, it sounds so. silly now after everything going on uh. and that's gone on since then, but it. was a huge deal. They did the Iraqi. incubators hoax where they brought in a. girl who claimed to be a nurse who said. that she was in the hospital in Kuwait. City when the Iraqi soldiers came in. there, stole the incubators, threw the. babies out of the incubators onto the.

cold floor to die and then ran off with. the incubators. Whether to just destroy. them out of sadism or to bring them back. to Baghdad because they have a big. incubator shorter in Baghdad, she didn't. say. But it turned out she wasn't a. nurse and she wasn't even in the country. at the time of the invasion. She was the. daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador and. the thing was a 100% hoax. 0% of it ever. happened. But Amnesty International. vouched for it and said it was true and. so that was all you needed. So George. Bush repeatedly brought this up and.

said, "See, this shows that Iraq was. determined to systematically dismantle. Iraq. That this isn't just an invasion. It's these horrible crimes against. humanity. and what would we do if they. were doing it to us and oh we have to. help the poor people and they that was a. big part of what they used to beat. people over the head about that war and. the other one was and they learned this. from the focus groups was we have to. threaten the American people with nukes. that even with moral atrocities like the. incubator hoax going on that Americans.

are still like I don't know you know um. like Richard Prior said in 1986 he had a. bit where he stops joking and he just. says it weird like we stick on Germans. and the Soviets and now we're bombing. Libya. Does that sound right? Like they. can't fight back even like it's just. weird. Seems weird. So people needed a. real reason to go and that was atom. bombs and the and so people forget this. now because it Iraq war takes the place. in their memory, right? But in Iraq war.

I one, they also alleged repeatedly that. Saddam Hussein was working on nuclear. weapons or he very well could be. And. this was one of the reasons why we had. to go. Now here's the screwed up part. about that. They were lying, but they. turned out to be telling the truth. accidentally because in fact what they. found out in the aftermath of the war. when they occupied southern Iraq was. there was a bear but a beginning of the. beginnings of a nuclear weapons program. there very very early we're talking ' 91. right early 91 at the end of Iraq war I. one. >> so what happened was people always cite.

the Israeli strike on the Osarak reactor. in 1981 and say what a great success it. was no that was a IAEA safeguarded. facility that was not producing weapons. grade anything of any kind. And when. they bombed it, all they did was drive. his program underground. Now it became a. nuclear weapons program. And it was only. a coincidence that America after. launching Iraq War I found his secret. program that the CIA had no idea about. And so this became a major consequence. And here's why. Because Dick Cheney. would later cite this and go, "Well, if.

the CIA can't find it, that doesn't mean. it's not there. Remember that one time?". And so it became a big part of the Hawks. talking points after that. If the CIA. claims like confirmation bias again, CIA. agrees, then they're right. CIA. disputes, then yeah, well, we don't have. to listen to them, right? Even when. they're the ones that they cite as the. authoritative source for every positive. claim they're making. So, the playbook. even with uh Iraq War I is you try to. look for different stories, whether it's. anecdotal stories with nurses or it's. anecdotal or it's stories about nuclear.

weapons, you're trying to find a way to. justify war. >> That's right. And the same playbook was applied. Yeah. In the second Iraq war. >> Yeah. And and and and back to Nam Chosky. for one second about them refusing to. accept Hussein's surrender was that by. the end of the thing like he had been. demanding come on let me keep these. uninhabited islands at the north of the. Persian Gulf where I could make like a. oil shipping facility there or something. like that. You know he dropped all those.

demands. Here were his final demands. Right? He wasn't just going to turn tail. for nothing. He had to save some face. So his final demands were promise that. America will leave the Middle East and. that Israel will leave the occupied. territories. someday. Right? In other words, nothing. He's. demanding nothing. He's demanding please. let me keep the skin on my face only is. the only face he's saving. Right? And. they wouldn't give it to him because. that would have stopped the war from.

happening. Lex, I'm sorry, man, but. that's the history of how that happened. I mean, think about the relative power. of the United States of America with the. entire UN Security Council on board, too. Telling Iraq for. 6 months, 5 months, you better give in. And they couldn't figure out a way to. get him to give in, huh? Yeah, they. could, too. They didn't want him to give. in. You know, they had all of these. chances. And there were reports in News. Day and the New York Times and whatever. and that had all the stories where he. kept making all these offers and they.

would just reject them out of hand. In. fact, Nam Chomsky talked about how it. would be in the business press in. England that oh look um oil prices fall. because they think there's a peace deal. and and the business press knows that. this is happening. Oh, it looks like. they're going to have a peace deal and. so the price of oil falls from the. relaxed tension and then nope, right? And then they cancel the thing and they. go on anyway. You mentioned the part. which I think is fascinating about. defeating Vietnam syndrome and.

reinvigorating Marshall spirit. >> Can you just psychoanalyze the state. department, CIA, people in government? Why did they want to reinvigorate the. Marshall spirit? Is it money? Is it. power? Is it just coming up with a. narrative age-old narrative of. nationalism is good and one of the ways. to achieve nationalism is to invade. somebody. What what is the motivation in. a room these folks sitting together? Why.

do they want to reinvigorate the. Marshall spirit? >> So they could enforce what they called. the new world order which was again I. borrowed this from Chsky but I found two. original citations for it. As George. Bush senior himself said, what we say. goes. So this is what Biden and them call the. liberal rules-based international order. of global governance. What it means is. forget the UN charter. Forget the UN. Security Council. There's the US. National Security Council and. everybody's going to bow down and do. what we say. It's our unipolar moment as.

Charles Crowutamemer put it in foreign. affairs and we're going to take full. advantage of it. But don't worry, Lex. Again, as Bush Senior said, the world. trusts us with this power because they. know that we are good people and we know. what we're doing and we only have their. best interest at heart. We care about. them so much. And so the world allows us. to be the global police force to enforce. the law and make sure everything's fair. because man, what if we stopped holding. the world together? Boy, it would all. just fall apart. >> So just clamoring for power.

>> It'd be Germany and Japan. And I don't. know if you remember this, but when the. Soviet Union fell apart, oh my god, Germany and Japan are going to rise back. up and take back over the world again. >> Really? >> Yeah. >> The messaging. >> And before the before the war on. terrorism, they tried for a while, they. made, you know, Harrison Ford movies out. of it and everything to try to build up. the war against the Mexican drug cartels. and the Peruvian drug cartels because we. got to have somebody to fight in the '9s. while we're trying to get something else. going on here basically. you know, um.

that they don't want to have to get a. job. And yet, like Bush Senior, you got. to give him credit for this. He. absolutely slashed military spending, slashed the bomber fleets, slash the. military, slash army divisions and and. and ships and everything. We don't need. an antis-siet military for a world. without the Soviet Union. And he really. cut it way way back and especially on. nuclear weapons. In fact, I hate to say. this cuz I never was a HW Bush guy and.

I'm so critical of the all of his Middle. East policy and all these things, but in. a way you could say he's the most heroic. guy who ever lived in the sense of. working with the Russians, the Soviets, and then the Russians on these treaties. to bring the global stockpile down from. approximately 70,000 down to where we. have about 7,000 each, which is way more. than enough to do you. But when the. Soviets had 40,000 and we had 30, come. on. Somebody's got to do something. And. Bush Senior is the man who did something.

about it. And as I show in the book, he. well, we're skipping ahead of the other. Cold War book here, but he did um make. unilateral cuts because he didn't have. time to do negotiations. So you said. made massive unilateral cuts in hopes. that Gorbachoff would respond in kind. Or was it Yeltson by then? And then I. think it was Yeltson by then. And then. Yelson did respond in kind and made. these drastic cuts on his own unilateral. basis just without even an agreement. But you know what? We'll get rid of our. class of those same kind of weapons too. So got to give credit where it's due at.

he handled the end of the cold war um. you know a lot better than he might have. I guess you could say you know. >> Yeah. Anybody who's trying to decrease. the number of nuclear weapons in the. world is. it requires some degree of heroism to do. that. >> Yeah. And he wasn't a neocon, right? He's an old waspy guy from the older. establishment and he called the. neoonservatives the crazies and he had. told General Skraftoft to keep the. crazies in the basement. In other words, they're allowed to kill people down in.

Latin America, but you keep them away. from Middle East policy, right? They're. not allowed to mess around with what. we're doing over there. And I guess. here's where let's start talking more. about bringing Israel into our narrative. here because um. as I said the Israelis had stayed. friends with Iran through the Iran Iraq. war. They had no problem with. fundamentalist Shiite Islam then sold. these guys weapons. In fact tree parsy. shows in his absolutely excellent book. treacherous alliance which if you. haven't read that you'll absolutely love.

it. I'm so good. Um you want to pull. that up. He's one of the co-founders of. the Quincy Institute for International. Statecraft. Treacherous alliance to. secret dealings of Israel, Iran, and the. United States by Tria Parsy. This work. examines the complex, often. contradictory relationship between. Israel, Iran, and the US. Countries. whose alliances and rivalries have. repeatedly shifted since the mid 20th. century. Oh, it's just fascinating. Of. course, the poor Iraqis are stuck in the. middle of this thing is a big like. subtext of the story, right? But what's.

so great about that book is it's all. there's no news cycle stuff in there. anywhere. It's all told from the point. of view of the highest level military. strategists in all three countries. And. it started out I believe as his PhD and. became this thing. But it is just a. masterpiece. But uh anyway, he's the. best guy to read about this and the way. that all this transpired that. essentially when the Ayatollah the mean. old Ayatollah Kmeni who died in '89 uh. when he would be threatening the. Israelis like oh we're going to destroy. you one day or whatever they would be.

shipping him missiles that day right so. this was this covert relationship that. was going on behind the scenes even when. they were you know saying very malicious. things about each other in public that. was really cover for the extent that of. their covert relationship that was still. ongoing at that time. And so now it in. uh we got to put this off one second. I'm sorry I I left out it's important to. go back to the Shiite uprising of 1991.

because in the aftermath of Iraq War I. Saddam Hussein. um crushed the Shiite uprising which. George Bush Senior had encouraged. And. I'm not sure if you've ever seen the. movie Three Kings. I like to bring this. up as kind of a touchstone for people. because a lot of people learn history. just from movies, you know. So, the. movie is Ice Cube and Marky Mark and. George Clooney. >> and they're soldiers on a gold heist, but they're in southern Iraq occupying. Iraq in the aftermath of the first Iraq. war. And in the background, Saddam.

Hussein's forces are murdering. everybody, crushing the Shiite uprising. And that's what's going on in the. background. So, people remember that. movie. That'll be probably the most they. ever learned about the crush Shiite. uprising of 1991. That's fair. You know, that's how it is. Yeah. >> Um they didn't make that big of a deal. at of it at the time because it was a. horrible Bay of Pigs type situation. where America told them to do it. George. Bush, his own voice on Voice of America. encouraged them to rise up and finish. Saddamy saying the Air Force dropped. leaflets over uh predominantly Shiite.

army divisions and and the rest of them. I guess too, and saying now's. everybody's chance to rise up and. overthrow this guy. But let's then they. changed their mind. And the reason they. changed their mind was remember when I. said in 1980, why Saddam invaded Iran? Cuz some Iraqis were choosing Iran's. side in the war. And he was afraid they. all were and that the Iranian revolution. was going to come for him, right? So he. conscripted the army and sent them to. war against Iran instead. Well, now in. the Shiite uprising, those very same. Iraqis who've been living in Iran for 10.

years and fought on Iran's side in the. war, they're now coming across the. border to lead the uprising. Does that. make sense? Mhm. >> Okay. This is namely and most. importantly the Brigade B AR. The. Brigade is the militia of the Supreme. Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq. which is run by at that time a guy named. Abdul Aziz al-Hakim who's now dead but. he's a very important guy and he's going. to come back up in our story here. >> Mhm. So when the bottom brigade started. coming across the border was when George. Bush, Brent Skraftoft and the boys all.

flinched and said, "Uhoh, we cuz again. this is the third Reagan term. essentially, right? So we just spent a. decade supporting Saddam to contain the. Iranian revolution. Now we're the ones. importing it into Iraq. That is a. mistake." And so he called it off. He. was more cautious and said, "Let's not. do that." And but the problem with that. was one 100,000 Kurds and Shiites were. killed. But also that then became the. excuse for America to stay in Saudi.

Arabia. They had promised the king, you. let us get rid of Saddam and drive him. out of Kuwait. And and we have this on. Dick Cheny's word himself. It's so. funny. There's a podcast that of Bill. Crystal's podcast. Do you know Bill. Crystal has a podcast? And he and he. interviewed Dick Cheney. Somebody put. this on archive.org before it's gone. forever, man. And it's great because. they talk about everything except Iraq. War II. They don't say a word about it. either of them the whole time. So Dick.

Cheney explains in that interview to. Bill Crystal that he was the one, never. even mind James Baker, the Secretary of. State, that as Secretary of Defense, he. promised King FA of Saudi Arabia that we. promise we'll leave as soon as the war. is over. And now. uh we should I really screwed this up, man. I'm sorry. When we talked about. Afghanistan before, I should have. dwelled a little longer on the fact. that, as we all know, when we talked. about bogging them down into their own. Vietnam, the Soviets in the 1980s, that. America supported not just the Mujaheden.

of Afghanistan, but what became the. International Islamic Brigades, meaning Arabs and other Muslims from all. around the world, especially from Arab. lands, to go to Afghanistan to fight on. the side of the mujaheden against the. Soviets. And this included Egyptian. Islamic Jihad and what was called then. the Isam Group which was the main group. that was controlled by the Saudi. intelligence services during the 1980s. >> And that was a thing that United States. wanted. >> Yes. So Brazil was trying to bait Russia.

into invading Soviet Union into invading. Afghanistan and then they wanted to. extend the war. So America had a deal. with Saudi Arabia. We would match them. dollar for dollar. We would work with. their intelligence services and the. Pakistanis to support local mujaheen. like Gubald Dean Hecmachar and Jalala. Hakani who later became America's. enemies in our Afghan war. Um but then. and and various other postune warlords. of different descriptions. >> Wait. So US is uh essentially helping. train up these militia groups. >> Yes. And including bringing them to the.

United States and having our special. forces train them in car bombs and. sabotage and assassinations and. everything. Yes. full-scale US support. for building up the bin Laden movement. as long as they're killing Soviets. >> And those same people then come back and. become the enemies of the United States. >> So when we talk about al Qaeda, what. we're talking about is eventually the. merger of Egyptian Islam and Jihad and. the Isam group after Isam was killed and. I don't think anybody really knows who. killed him. Osama bin Laden took over. his group and Osama bin Laden. So then.

this is the main reason and there are. many but this is the main reason that. al-Qaeda turned against the United. States was that Somin was outraged that. the king had allowed the United States. to liberate Kuwait instead of him and. his men. It's not like they have a bunch. of mountains to hide out in in Kuwait, but he wanted to try it uh to to kick. Saddam out. And then he was just driven. crazy by the fact that the king allowed. white Christian combat forces to come. and occupy this holy land. It's not just.

their country, but their holy land where. Mecca and Medina, the birthplace of. Muhammad and the birthplace of the. religion of Islam are and the the two. holy places bin Laden called them. I. guess they all do. And that then we. didn't leave. This is the ultimate. outrage, right? And this is the main. overriding reason for the bin Laden. Well, at least for his jihad, which was. really based on the idea of trying to. get all the desperate groups from around. the Middle East. These are more or less.

stateless groups. They're in some cases. backed by Saudi, you know, more or less. at different times, but they're. jihadists from all over the place, you. know, Egyptians and Saudis and Syrians. and and you know, AAM himself was. Palestinian, raised in a refugee camp in. Kuwait. Um, but um you had all these. different people. And then so bin. Laden's genius was to figure out the one. thing we can agree on is let's attack. the United States because America is at. the root of all of our problems. And. just like we had helped them to bog the. um Soviets down in Afghanistan, they.

wanted to do the same thing to us. And. so um this was the beginning really of. al-Qaeda's war against the United States. began at this time in reaction to the. declaration of this new world order. The. permanent uh stationing of troops in uh. Saudi Arabia and what became the. permanent the unrelenting full global. embargo United Nations Security Council. full global sanctions regime against the. Iraqi state which led to at the very.

least 300,000 excess deaths. Although a. UN study later embellished that and Bin. Laden would embellish the numbers even. higher than that to 600,000 or a million. but whatever it was uh it was a ruthless. economic war of collective punishment. against the entire uh people of the. country even though they had their. chance to overthrow him. USA encouraged. it and then let Saddam keep his. helicopters and tanks while we were. standing right there and let him crush. the insurrection. Now, the Bush. administration and later the Clinton.

administration's position was the. sanctions stay until Saddam is gone. But. he's still young and in pretty good. health and no one in Iraq is in any. position to do anything about this. So, it's just this policy that Clinton. inherited from Bush and ended up. keeping. Can we go to Can you link on. Bin Laden? So, this gave enough. >> fuel for Bin Laden to construct a. narrative where America. >> That's right. the bad guys. >> And and this is such an important thing.

Um there's this great book uh by Michael. Shyer, who was the former chief of the. CIA bin Laden unit. It's called Imperial. Hubris. And I will say that he went a. bit crazy in later years and said really. mean things like we ought to help all. the Muslims kill each other and we ought. to have a civil war over Russia Gate and. which I'm very very opposed to Russia. Gate Lex, but I wouldn't go that far. So. he went a little nuts later on, but he's. a very bright guy and a very honest guy. for what it's worth. A very. straightforward guy, I should say. I.

don't know if he's ever told a lie or. what. Purely hubris, why the west is. losing the war on terror by Michael. Shore. And I should also say, echoing. that statement that some of the smartest. people I know are walking the line. between genius and madness. >> It happens. And and when you study the. dark aspects of human nature and and. geopolitics, sometimes it's easy to lose. yourself in the madness. >> Yeah, it's totally true. Um but so in. this book, he makes it so clear. There. are six overriding reasons that bin. Laden cited for why the United States.

should be attacked. Okay? And he. compared this directly to the Ayatollah. Kmeni who would relentlessly criticize. our culture and you know lentiousness. and Hollywood R-ratedness and all of. that kind of stuff as like the. degenerate society but he can't recruit. people for a war over that. You know. what I mean? Not that he was really. trying to but that only spires inspires. so much resentment, you know? And. conservatives don't like um.

libertineism, right? Like that's okay, but it only. goes so far, right? Bin Laden on the. other hand said they occupy the land of. the two holy places. They help Israel. kill Palestinians and Lebanese. They. support the dictators, especially in. Saudi Arabia and Egypt, but around the. Middle East. They put pressure on those. dictators to keep oil prices. artificially low to subsidize our. economy at their expense. Just think of. all the times you've heard presidents.

say, "I'm telling the Saudis they better. ramp up production and get the price of. gas down for election day, right? As. blatant as can be." But what does that. sound like to the poor person in those. countries? Isn't that money supposed to. go to them? Um, and then as Bin Laden. would say falsely turning a blind eye to. Russia, India, Kazakhstan, and China in. their persecution of Muslims. So they. say they love us so much, but they don't. really because they don't say anything. when this group or that group are the. ones killing us. So these were the. things and look let us stipulate Lex.

okay that Osama bin Laden is a mass. murderer and by tradition I don't take. the word of mass murderers for meaning. very much and I don't expect you to okay. that's not the point the point is. what did he say that got anybody to. listen to him and do what he said he. wasn't in charge of a government he had. no coercive apparatus at all his. organization is purely volunteer. volunteer fear based and he's asking. people to blow themselves up over.

something important enough to blow. yourself up for it. It's not virgins. It's we have a policy. I should stipulate virgins after you. die. It we have a policy and we're. trying to provoke a war with the United. States of America and you're going to. help us do it. Why? Because of these six. reasons. That's why. And that was what. worked to recruit people to attack the. United States of America. Okay, major. important case in point and well.

whatever the timeline jumps around here. a bit but major case in point is in 1996. when Israel under Shimon Perez invade. reinvaded Lebanon and what was called. Operation Grapes of Wrath and during. that invasion. it's hard to believe this wait don't. Google yet search this part it was. Naftali Bennett called in the artillery. strike on on a UN shelter and killed 106. women and children in Kana. That's Q A N.

A in 1996. Nathan Bennett, while serving as an. Israeli army officer in 1996, commanded. a commando unit during Operation Grapes. of Wrath in southern Lebanon. During. this operation, his troops came under. mortar fire near the village of Kana. Uh. Bennett radioed for artillery support, so on so on so on, killing 106 people. and injured many others. in a UN shelter. >> This humanitarian tragedy is widely. known as the Conor massacre.

>> Mhm. So when Shimon Perez launched that. war, Muhammad Ata, the ring leader of. the September 11th plotters in the. United States, pilot of flight 11, I. believe he and his buddy Ramsay bin. Alshe, they were Egyptian engineering. students studying in Hamburg, Germany. And when this invasion started, they. both signed their last will and. testament, which their friends and. family and neighbors and whatever said. was their expressed intent that like. they're joining the army. They're. deciding, forget engineering. I want to.

join the mujahaden and go fight the good. fight somewhere, whatever. Then just a. couple of months later, bin Laden put. out his first declaration of war against. the United States. It's called. declaration of war against the Americans. occupying the land of the two holy. places. Pretty subtle, right? And then. on the first page, he goes on and on. about the Kana massacre and says, "We'll. never forget the he the severed heads. and arms and legs of the babies and the. children in Kana." He told Robert Fisk,

I believe, how come our how come your. blood is blood, but our blood is water? Well, we'll see about that. That's a. strong reminder that there's a cost to. killing people. >> Oh, yeah. So what happened was Muhammad. Ata and Ramsey bin Alib, they read that. declaration of war and that was when. they decided to join al Qaeda was based. on the Kana massacre that Israel had. perpetrated in Lebanon. So again, we're. skipping ahead in the story. We're going. to do the whole '90s here, but literally.

on September 11th, you had Egyptians. volunteered for a Saudi chic to. slaughter Americans by the thousands as. revenge for American support for Israel, killing people in Lebanon. That, my friend, is why George Bush said. they hate the Taliban did it because. they hate your freedom, right? Because. they couldn't tell you that6. people. It's a reminder that killing can. cause uh immeasurable escalation, trillions of dollars,

>> all of it. >> Yep. And here's the other thing. Um, Bill Clinton, I think foolishly said. something about how he would like to. normalize relations with Iraq or at. least look into it or something. And. boy, he should not have said that. because people got all upset and tried. to figure out how to stop it, including. the Kuwaitis. And what happened was, I. know you're familiar with this. We all. are. And virtually everyone gets this. wrong.

The myth that Saddam Hussein tried to. murder George HW Bush with a truck bomb. assassination attempt in Kuwait in 1993. Total hoax debunked by Seymour Hirs by. the end of the year in a article for the. New Yorker called Case Not Closed. He. shows it was just a whiskey smuggling. ring that they embellished into this. plot against Bush. And then it was. Martin Indic who was Bill Clinton's. adviser. Who was he? He was an. Australian who'd been working for Yetsak.

Shamir, the Lakood party uh well former. terrorist murderer and then lood party. prime minister of Israel and Indic had. gone from there to go work in uh I don't. know exactly the time off a year or so. um he stopped and went to work for. Clinton. In the meantime, he founded the. Washington Institute for Near East. Policy, WINP, which was directly a. spin-off of Apac. Apac put up the money. That's the American Israel Public.

Affairs Committee, the heart of the. Israel lobby. They put up the money for. the Washington Institute for Near East. Policy, which you have heard that name a. million times and you're going to. continue to hear it because they are. always cited as middle-of the road. scientific experts on American foreign. policy when they were and this is not. the same about all neocon think tanks, but this one was literally created by. the Israel lobby in the United States. him. Then he became an adviser to Bill. Clinton and he was insisting on this. policy of essentially continuing the HW.

Bush policy of staying in Saudi Arabia. in order to patrol the so-called no-fly. zones over Iraq to keep Saddam Hussein. from killing the Iraqis and enforce the. blockade which was enforced by world law. anyway, right? Like there's some. smuggling going on or whatever, but no. nation state is violating the embargo. against Iraq here. So it's completely. unnecessary on both counts. But the. Israelis, and this is Rabbine's. government, Yetssak Rabbine's government. is I guess in agreement with this Lakud. guy Indic on this. They're pushing for a.

policy that they called dual. containment. And the point was that. Iraq, now that we beat them up so bad in. Iraq War I, Desert Storm, first Gulf. War, now they're not powerful enough to. balance against Iran. So now America has to stay in Saudi. Arabia to balance against them both. And. Bill Clinton resisted this and resisted. this until the big fake assassination. attempt against Bush Senior, which. again, I don't have any reason to. believe the Israelis were behind that. It was the Kuwaitis who rigged up. Oh,

did I leave out that it was the girl who. pretended that she saw the babies thrown. out of their incubators. It was her. father was the one who spun up this. story. So, in other words, the same guy. who spun up that story was the same guy. spun up this story about the. assassination attempt against Bush. Senior, which everybody still believes. and which I'm sure Bush Jr. believed at. the time that he launched that war. probably. Was he re Seymour Hersh? He. doesn't know and and it was just. conventional wisdom and I was still just. a teenager in the 1990s but I don't. remember wow that assassination against.

Bush thing was debunked. I don't. remember that ever getting around. You. know what I mean? I don't know who was. reading Hirsh at that time. It was pre-. internet times by a year, right? It just. wasn't it just wasn't a hot enough. topic. You know what I mean? How do you. fight those false narratives that uh the. military-industrial complex tries to. produce in order to get us into war? >> The main thing is speak up. >> I think the most Yeah. The most. important thing is read anti-war.com. every day for a long period of time in a. row and you will have a very good handle. on what the hell is going on in the.

world. Was founded by Eric Garrison and. Justin Roando who are both a couple of. libertarians. Roando was a student of. Murray Rothbard's or at least one of his. um mentees you know learned a lot from. heir of his foreign policy thought. Murray Murray and Rothbart the best. libertarian and so that's where we come. from is that tradition and um you know. Ron Paulian non-interventionist types. and but the news is and and but our. opinion pieces come from all over the. spectrum as long as we're anti-war we're. not sectarians at all it's a oneisssue. thing and really we just do the hard.

news more than anything we have a lot of. great editorials as well but it's Eric. Garris and Dave Damp and Kyle Analone. who get the lion share of the credit for. the actual work that goes into the site. every day. >> and that goes to every single war in the. world. >> Everything every day we have our top. news, we have a frontline section and. then at the bottom we have every region. uh of the world where there's conflict. breaking out. >> Trump sends two nuclear subs towards. Russia. So obviously Russia. >> that's reassuring God. And you see our spotlight article is by.

Bronco March teach and he's a leftist. but we love him. He does absolutely. fantastic work. So it doesn't matter if. you're left or right. >> That's right. And we're very close with. the American conservative magazine for. example. Pat Buchanan is a good friend. of ours and we ran his articles for many. years. Ron Paul of course as well the. greatest American ever. >> Ron Paul is amazing. And you give love. and respect to Ron Paul all the time. >> Uh he absolutely deserves it. We spoke. of heroes. He's one of the legend. That's how I knew anti-Word.com was for. me. The first day I laid eyes on it, my. friend said, "Look, they run Ron Paul.".

And I went, "All right, I like these. guys." Can we take a quick pause for. Bath and Break? Sure. >> So, before we get too far into Bill. Clinton, I should say, cuz I did say. these words. I I know the new world. order thing that was a very popular. conspiracy theory in the '90s and even. before that, which was about building a. one world government under the United. Nations and subsuming the United States. under it and all that. That's not what. I'm talking about. And I actually was a. New World Order cook in the 1990s, but I. was a kid. It's fine. I grew out of it. But point being, Bush Senior did use.

that phrase repeatedly. And what he. meant by it was, >> you know, in the guise of the United. Nations, baby blue flag and all of that. for like PR purposes more than the real. agenda. He was saying American power is. the guarantor of world peace and we will. enforce it through war. Right? And. that's the deal of it. Nobody's allowed. to bite or we will intervene. Right? So, it's just essentially it's it's the the. irony, right, that any government.

powerful enough to keep the peace. between the 50 states is powerful enough. to try it for the rest of the world as. they can. They do this. We're just. extending our security umbrella. Everybody who joins up with us is. guaranteed nobody's going to ever mess. with you or else they'd have to mess. with us except for everyone on the. outside, >> right? who now are put in the position. of having, you know, not just the United. States but all their allies lined up. against them and feel that much, you. know, more threatened, namely, of.

course, Russia and China, the other. major, uh, you know, potential. adversaries and nuclear weapons states. And I think the lesson there is if you. think you can run the world by. threatening everybody with military. power, considering all the very cultures. and peoples and histories of the world, you're going to fuck things up. You're. going to create a lot of hate. You're. going to create a lot of increased uh. war, increased terrorism, increased. threats to America versus decreased. >> Yeah. So more on the neocons here too.

before we get too far into Bill Clinton. is in 1992 a year after the end of Iraq. war I one under deputy secretary of. defense Paul Wolfwitz his deputies. Scooter Libby and Zme Khalilzad wrote. what was called the defense planning. guidance for 1994 for fiscal year 1994. and it caused a huge upset. It was. leaked to the New York Times and it. became a really big deal because what it. said was America is essentially world. police. We're not going to tolerate the.

rise of any nearpeer competitor against. us in the world. Like we'll fight them. before we allow them to get powerful. enough to even be one. We will not let. any nation or group of nations become. powerful enough to ever even be able to. think about challenging our military. dominance on the planet. And of course, we're doing all this in the interests of. world peace. And that means that we have. to have total military dominance in the. Middle East. We have to expand NATO and. have total military dominance in Eastern.

Europe. And of course, we have to. maintain our position with Japan and. Korea and the rest in order to maintain. total dominance in Asia as well. And. this is what Charles Crowutamemer called. our unipolar moment again and said we. should stop short of nothing less than. total world domination. That was the. quote. And at that time, Jean. Kirkpatrick, who had been a. neoconservative, she was a member of the. Young People's Socialist League of the. Social Democrats USA, which were the. Troskyites under Max Shockman, who was.

Trosky's most important guy in the. United States. And this is something. that Mark Dubowitz tried to deny and. argue with me about of whether she was a. neoconservative or not. Well, she was. like James Wolsey, a Presbyterian. Now. most neoonservatives are Jewish and or. Catholic although you have Pame Khalil. Zad and Francis Fukiyama and others who. are of other you know uh different u uh. you know um cultural inheritances you.

might say there um and so the defining. characteristics and and he was saying. well she didn't believe in democracy as. the single most important thing in the. whole world and of course she had. written this article um in the national. interest in that had gotten Reagan's. attention in the first place, saying. that it's okay to support authoritarians. as long as they're right-wingers and. anti-communists. That anti-communism is. more important than democracy. And so we. should put, for example, we should.

support people like Samoza in Nicaragua. and things like that in order to keep. the commies at bay. That that's number. one. And so some of the neocons. disagreed with that. Dubowitz was trying. to say that's what makes her not a. neocon. But that's really not true. because neocons there's about a hundred. of them or something and they disagree. about all kinds of things. They sure do. work together on lots of things but sure. they disagree on things. I'll give. another example on democracy where. Robert Kagan said in 2013 that we should. allow the Muslim Brotherhood to rule in. Egypt because they won fair and square. Parliament and the presidency just.

barely. They won in fair elections. And. after all we've done in the name of. democracy, don't we have to allow them. to have a chance? Well, Frank Gaffne was. like, "Are you kidding me?" Like, I'll. go overthrow him myself right now. Are. you crazy? He's got a Hbomb going off. over his head. Is any going to deny that. Frank Gaffne is a neoconservative just. cuz he differed with Robert Kagan on his. order of importance in democracy in this. or that instance? Give me a break. Jean. Kirkpatre came from the neoconservative.

left. She wrote for Commentary magazine. with Norman Pod Hortz and all the guys. And I don't mean again just a leftist. She was with the Troskyites, Max. Shottman and the Young People Socialist. League and the Social Democrats USA. So. she's like a card carrying. neoonservative. This is what it means to. be a neocon. And she wrote and then she. was Reagan's second ambassador to the. United Nations was widely respected by. the Republicans as a conservative hawk. and a very like American interest. oriented type. and she would even rail.

against the UN itself in almost a. bircher sounding kind of way that. appeals to me. Um although she didn't. really mean it. She was just mad that. they would ever get in our way rather. than that they really are threat to our. independence in any way. But the point. is this man that I'm trying to get to is. at the end of the cold war a year before. the Soviet Union was even gone in the. fall of 1990. So she must have written. this in the summer of 1990. This is a. year before the failed kami coup and the. final unraveling where the Russians. overthrew the last of the Soviet Union.

government at that time at the end of. 91. This is a year before that. And she. importantly right on the confirmation. bias trick again. It's Jean Kirkpatre. right not Susan Sarandon. It's Jean. Kirkpatre who wrote this piece in the. national interest called a normal. country in a normal time. The only place. you can find it is on my website. scotthorton.org/fareuse /f fair use and. I won't tell you where I got and it's. and don't ever sue me national interest. I love you guys. Um,

and the thing is, >> yeah, >> so it's it's in there somewhere. You. have to page down. I'm not Oh, there it. is right there. Normal country in a. normal time. March uh Oh, that's the. date I published it. Fall 1990. >> A normal country in a normal time. You. published it on March 23rd, 2022. Is by. Jin Kopatrick, the National Interest. Fall 1990. It's the first time since. 1939 that there has been an opportunity. for Americans to consider what we might. do in a world less constrained by. political and military competition with. a dangerous adversary. I am pleased that.

the national interest has provided a. forum for this discussion. And it goes. on, American purposes are mainly. domestic. Our purpose in the world are. merely human, not transcendent. To be. legitimate, the American government's. purpose must be ratified by popular. majorities. >> Here's what she says in here. She says. we should isue the burdens of superpower. status. She sounds like George. Washington. She's saying okay the. commies are gone. The Cold War is over.

The emergency is over. So now we can go. back to being what we were supposed to. be what we used to be before that we put. on hold because we had to wage the cold. war. Now we can have a real return to. normaly meaning. 28 right before the the permanent world. empire was built for the purposes of. destroying the Nazis and then containing. the comm. >> So she was very anti-communist and.

neoconservative perspective. She had a. significant role in the Reagan. administration and then be after she. evolved in saying we need to let go. >> That's right. In other words, she is. here. She's aligning with Pap Buchanan. Now, for people who aren't familiar, Pat. Buchanan, he is a Catholic. paleoconservative. He was Nixon's speech. writer and Reagan's speech writer. To. this day, he's retired sweet old guy. now. But, uh, he's lifelong cold warrior. and doesn't regret it. The commie threat. absolutely had to be contained. Vietnam.

had to be done. He's a wonderful guy. He. really is. Um, and he's written just a. grip of great books. I mean, I don't. know, uh, eight or 10 of them. So. there's an evolution here. There's some. of the folks really saw Russia and the. Soviet Union as a major threat. >> Oh yeah. >> And then they've evolved saying, "Okay, now that the Cold War is over, >> we need to calm down.". >> And and see Pat is the perfect avatar. for this. Him and his buddies, you know, Scott McConnell and Jude Waniski.

Waniski himself had been a former. neoonservative. Um, but there's this. whole group of paleoconservatives who. nobody can question. They're patriotism. This is Ronald Reagan's guy. This is a. guy that puts words in Ronald Reagan's. mouth, right? >> And he's saying, "Okay, you guys. promised. The empire was a defensive measure, right? We don't want an empire." Chmer. Johnson is another one. Chmer Johnson. was a professor at USC who was a.

hardcore ardent cold warrior. You're. familiar with him. I'm sure he wrote the. book Blowback and then Sorrows of Empire. and Nemesis or the trilogy that he wrote. about the American Empire then and. he was adamantly cold warrior until the. Soviets were gone and then the empire. continued to expand and then he went. wait a minute now I taught a generation. of students that we were holding the. tide back. What's all this about we're. the tide now? That's not right. And in. fact, I like to cite this because it's.

just so astonishing to people that. William F.Buckley, one of the major, not. that he was a neoconservative. He. wasn't, but he was one of their main. godfathers. Basically, um the founding. editor of the National Review, he wrote. an article in 1952 in Common Wheel. magazine. Again, you can find this at. scottton.org/fareuse. Um it's called The Party in the Deep. Blue Sea. It's about the Republican. Party, I guess, is what it means. Party. in the Deep Blue Sea. And in there he. says, "We must accept a totalitarian.

bureaucracy on our shores for the. duration of the emergency, even with Truman at the reigns of it. all, because of the need to face down the. Soviet threat. And you need a powerful. domestic empire that's capable of. forcing the American people to enforce a. world empire to contain the threat of. Stalinist Soviet communism. That's. horrible, right? >> Yes. >> Totalitarian bureaucracy. The same one.

we still got. And see, Pat said, "Okay, look, I was buying it when the enemy was. in Moscow, but now that there's no enemy. in Moscow and world communism, the. threat of world revolution is dead and. gone." Well, I don't want to hear it. about why we have to suffer this. anymore. We're supposed to be And then. again, this is why I cite Jin. Kirkpatrick. I could just cite Ron Paul. to you all day long here, right? But. everybody knows that Ron Paul is good on. everything. The point is here is these.

are people who are very hawkish when. they feel like it needs to be. You might. even your your readers might or your. listeners viewers might think that Ron. Paul is just too biased for peace. Well, Pat ain't okay. Pat is willing to fight. But not if there's not a good reason to. >> And that's the big qualification. Why. would a guy like Pat be anti-war? We. know he's not a hippie. There must be. another explanation. And the other. explanation is he is learned. He knows.

more about this than you. And he knows. why you shouldn't do this because this. is what's going to happen if you do. And. that's the kind of guy he is. And that's. why he and his paleoconservative friends. said, "Okay, enough. We want to come. home." And so Jin Kerpatrick, she didn't. really join with the Paleocons, but she. was certainly aligning with him on this. issue at this time that now's our chance. to go back to being a limited. constitutional republic with a free. economy, an a usually successful.

commercial republic, I believe she says. in the piece. Um, and which had a typo. because it said unusually, but she. couldn't have meant that. Go ahead. >> I don't know. I think I I leaned towards. Ron Paul a little bit. I don't think. totalitarian bureaucracy is justified. ever. I mean, you can come up with a. really extreme case, but really you're. going to get into trouble. This is why. the Birkers turned against the Cold War. in this during Vietnam. Robert Welch, I. mean, you can't get more anti-communists. than that guy, the leader of the Bur. Society. But he goes, "Wait a minute.

Why are we turning our country into a. communist country in the name of. containing communism over there?" and he. was being very liberal with the use of. the word there. But meaning why are we. building a a total state here when. that's everything that we're trying to. oppose in Vietnam but we're building it. here at home is crazy. We need to save. this money. We need to build our country. and lead the world by example not by. force was the obvious thing. If it was. that obvious to Robert Welch and to Ron. Paul during the Cold War, then after the.

Cold War, you got to make up a bunch of. crap about Saddam Hussein as Hitler and. he's killing all the babies in their. incubators and these kinds of Belgian. babies on bayonets and related hoaxes to. keep the thing going because again, as. Richard Prior said, that doesn't make. any sense to me, right? Like if it. doesn't just sound right to your average. guy. You tell me we had to face down. Hitler. All right. We had to face down. Stalin and Mao. That makes sense. We got. to bomb Gaddafi. There's not a better.

way that we USA number one can handle. that. You know, same kind of thing going. forward here. This is why, you know, these, and I like to emphasize this so. much, is that in the aftermath of. Vietnam, people think that, oh, peace is. just hippies and leftists and. anti-Americans of one stripe or another, people who are just no good in a fight. anyway. So, what do they know about. security, right, Jack Nicholson? I stand. on that wall. Even think about what a. joke that was. He was down in Guantanamo. Bay keeping Castro at bay for me. Yeah,

thanks a lot, dude. I can't handle that. truth, whatever you're burying down. there. um a lot of torture later. But. anyway, >> so you're saying like it's really people. that were hawks for a time woke up. >> That's right. >> The reality of the ridiculousness, the. absurdity of a what a totalitarian. bureaucracy does is it expands and. creates momentum and then you're now. become the thing you were fighting, right? But Francis Fukyama knew better. He said, "No, it's the end of history.".

And America has proven that more or less. democracy and more or less free market. capitalism as like Bill Clinton would. define them or something of that era. that that's the future of mankind. We. proved it. They tried every other way of. having a modern successful society and. this is the one and only way to do that. And not only that then, but that's. obviously America's mandate. and all his. neocon friends took it as America's. mandate that we're going to force the. world to accept our ways in that same. way. Of course, the British justified.

their obviously very self-interested. empire in the very same way that we're. going to teach you to have a separate. independent judiciary at any cost, right? Um it's all, you know, I hate to. say it, but the white man's burden type. of argument that, and they say this to. this day, look, if it wasn't us, it. would be the Russians. If it wasn't us, it would be the Chinese. If it wasn't. us, it would be somebody else and it. would be worse. And so that's it. And so. it is our responsibility. We're the most. mature and adult and responsible. stewards of global power. And so it has.

to be us to do this. And that was what. it said in the defense planning. guidance. And now it's true that Bush. lost that election and the Clintonites. came in. But as Paul Wolawitz bragged. again in the national interest by the. end of the decade that they all adopted. the Wolawitz doctrine anyway that you. know like for example Bill Clinton going. right around NATO to do the war in. Kosovo in 1999 because he wanted to and. Russia had a veto on the UN security. council and so well forget that we just. go around that that's straight out of. the wolf wits doctrine right that it's.

what m what's good for us and our. predominance of power in those regions. of the world is what matters the most. and these other considerations will have. to take a backseat to make sure that we. can be the guarantors of our world order. regardless of what the treaties. everybody signed up for say. And so, um, that really is what they call the. wolfawitz doctrine. It's not just, hey, let's go to Iraq for Israel, although. that's a huge part of it, but it's let's. America, our military power is always beneficial.

compared to the alternative. And so, we. should be the ones to guarantee the. peace or the war. But in in our case, if. it's war, it's only because the. alternative was worse. We promise. And. so that's the doctrine. And and there is. an ideology of American empire here. I. don't want to dismiss the corruption. It's a huge part. I mean, if if. hopefully we have time later and talk. really about the new cold war with. Russia. We talk a lot about the role. that Lockheed and the other. military-industrial complex firms played. in pushing all these uh policies.

forward. Is true with Iraq too. Committee on the Liberation of Iraq was. sponsored by Bruce Jackson from Lockheed. Martin and and he also financed the. project for new American century of Bill. Crystal and Robert Kagan. He financed. the Weekly Standard magazine and the. agenda was like let's sell NATO planes. in Europe and let's push for war in the. Middle East. And there's so there's a. lot of self-interested reasons there. But I think overall like you got to take. these people at their word when they say. we know we're heroes. We know we're.

doing the right thing. We know. everybody's better off without us. We. know that we have to. This is our. morality based foreign policy. We just. can't allow that bad thing to happen any. longer. We have to do something worse to. stop it. And this kind of thing is very. like you could tie it back to like. whatever. I'm not this smart to talk all. about the influence of of the pilgrims. and their glorious mission, you know, in. ancient Massachusetts to create the new. city on the hill to to be like the new.

Zion and and ultimately determine the. fate of mankind. But there's a lot of. Yankee busy bodyhood that is built into. this. And of course, the ScotchIrish. like to get drunk and get into fist. fights for fun. And I take. responsibility for that as a bit of my. background, too. I'm not being a racist. bigot, but like that's part of our. culture is like being a tough guy and. being able to get in a brawl and win one. or even suffer a defeat and and not cry. about it. You know what I mean? And like. yeah, some of that which is the dual. it's a double-edged sword of human.

nature is the ScotsIrish. I mean, they're so and I had a great. conversation with Saga and Jetty about. this uh are so foundational to the. individualism that makes America great. But then you get into trouble when you. start to believe you're. >> tell there's a bad guy out there. Yeah. >> And you start and then you have the. biggest military in the world and. there's Locky Martin's the military. industrial complex and now you think. you're better than everybody and now. you're creating wars all over the place. >> Yep. >> Creating enemies all over the place. >> And see, of course, there's partisanship. is all built into this is everybody.

supports their guy cuz the other guy is. you. We can't let them win. So we can't. undermine even when we disagree with our. own guy, we can't undermine him or we're. helping the other guys are going to bid. him get him in the mid midterms or. they'll get him in the next election. So. people close ranks around things they. even disagree with just because they. consider again the alternative worse. That's even from the point of view of. voters a lot of times that like you know. even Murray Rothbart endorsed George HW. Bush who had just done the Iraq war. because Rothbart's like well at least he.

hates Yets Shamir and at least he's not. bringing Hillary Clinton and the leftist. cultural revolution with him right so. I'll just you know um people got to make. these choices and and make their. comparisons of you know what they favor. or what they value at any given time and. make those compromises you know. >> and that's why you said anti-war. com is nonpartisan, right? >> That's right. Yeah, we're reaching out. to everybody. We're here to inform. everybody. Again, uh uh as I was. mentioning during the short break there, that hawks read our website, too,

because if you want really the best. briefing of what's going on in the. country, like we do hear from them from. time to time that like I got to admit. those guys really do have the most. comprehensive coverage of the stuff I'm. interested in, even if from their point. of view, the wrong point of view. If uh. before we go to Iraq War II, I if it's. okay take a brief aside uh since you. mentioned it, we did an Iran debate a. few weeks ago. >> Yes. >> Uh where about actually 20 minutes was. cut toward the end where I went a bit.

off the rails and uh you agreed with the. description that I wrote on X. I hope. it's cool if I read it. I try hard to. avoid editing. That's why I do four, five, 6, 7, 8 hour podcast. I wonder how. long we go today. Uh the part I cut cut. in the Iran debate was where it went off. the rails after 4 hours. Not. contentwise, but tone-wise, mockery, interruption, etc. Both had very little. sleep the night before and were tired. and not their best selves as they both.

said. I cut not because of the content, but the style. I try all I can to avoid. having that kind of drama on the. podcast. instead. I thought the first 4. hours had a lot of strong rants, which. it did, and you were continuing the. rants very well today. Uh, I'm enjoying. it. Uh, so you wanted to echo that. description and that the edit made. sense. Uh, maybe can you speak to that? And then also, can you please, it would. be great now that you're fresh, full of. Dr. Pepper, say anything and everything. you would like to say that went.

unresponded to maybe uh that is left to. be said. >> Thank you. Yes. So, first of all, I'll. take my responsibility for that part. I. literally had a long drive and a long. flight and four hours sleep and no food. in my stomach whatsoever. And I quite. honestly absolutely despise Mark. Dubowitz and I have for a very long. time. And so it was I I really had. thought about this beforehand. I really. should have rejected your terms at the. beginning where we're all friends here. having a friendly discussion. I had.

already kind of rehearsed in my mind. what I wanted to say to you was actually. no, right? this is just business and I. know that I really do regret that and. and I'm sorry to you personally for that. cuz I what I should have said was this. is just business. What's going to happen. here is he's going to lie the whole time. because he has to. And so then I'm going. to spend all of my time telling you why. what he just said isn't actually true. and how you can go verify that for. yourself, etc. Which is what ended up. happening. But it made it much more. acrimonious because it was like and for. you it was more frustrating because.

you're trying to hold things in the. conception that you had it where. we're all just going to be friends here. when that just was never going to really. last. And part of that is look I'm just. I'm Luke from Empire. I'm not quite all. the way grown up Return of the Jedi. Skywalker here myself. So I get angry. and and say angry things. As far as how. bad it went, I take my responsibility. for my part of that. Except the reality. was it was just cuz I was up against a.

horrible foreign agent lying his ass off. trying to get my fellow Americans killed. and their dollars wasted and I got a. problem with that. Um, and now on the. edit though, this is where we had a. problem and I do accept from you that. this part was inadvertent. I know that. you didn't mean to do it this way. What. happened was there were two instances of. him saying, "Oh, Scott Horton thinks the. Jews control everything and dictate. everything and blah blah," which I never. said at all. And he said twice. And yet.

my response was completely deleted, but. him saying that against me was still in. there. And I thought like on one hand. it's completely silly and stupid, but on. the other hand that's also like a pretty. ruthless and horrible thing to try to do. to somebody, not you, him, to try to put. those words in my mouth and say all. those facts that you just heard for 4. hours. Nah, this guy just hates Jews. So. if you're on my side, you don't have to. listen to him. You don't have to believe. him. Anything like this. And then our.

discussion about that's not true, dude. Just cuz I was talking about the. neoconservatives doesn't mean I was. talking about the Jews. Because for. example, Jen Kerpatrick and Jim Wolsey. are Presbyterians and and Michael Novak. and uh oh what's his name are Catholics. and Francis Fukyama I guess is a. Buddhist and and Zame Khalil Zad is a. Muslim and so I didn't say the Jews at. all did I? I was talking about this and. that and my very good response to that. went to the cutting room floor. And so I.

thought, well, that was kind of lame. And then I thought I was going to come. back sooner. And so I I apologize for. kind of putting you on blast in that. interview where I mentioned it, but I. was waiting to hear back from you where. we were going to make up for that by. doing this interview. And so I was like, yeah, I'm kind of disappointed. Now it's. uh nearly August and I hadn't heard from. the dude and I thought we were going to. do that. And so and because it is. important that and it goes to my overall. point that I'm trying to make here is. obviously the American empire is very. much against the interests of the.

American people but also and most. especially our support for Israel the. great albatross around our neck you know. what they do or millstone is maybe. better right albatross was a symbol of. good luck before you shot it down but. Israel's interests are vastly different. than America's interests. And people try to lie even to themselves. and say that that's not true. But they. are very different. For example, when. Israel killed those women and children. in Kana in 1996, that's what brought our.

towers down. Right? So this is something. very important that we have to grapple. with as a country that we're not just. talking about Israel being a nice Jewish. boy minding its own business over there. kind of like in some cliche or. narrative. We're talking about an. absolutely ruthless state that is in the. process of trying to get rid of millions. of people they wish they hadn't. kidnapped back in 1967 and we can do a. whole bit on that but they are put. themselves in a very difficult position.

and so they need our help to a very. great degree now from all that we. discussed here today does it sound like. I'm saying the Israelis and their lobby. are behind every single thing in. American policy and what we're doing. here like that's not at all what I'm. talking about Brazinski it's not the. Israel lobby at all. He's Rockefeller's. guy and that's a separate group of guys, right? Um and so go ahead. >> Just a um I'm really sorry for missing. the two mentions that you're referring. to. You know, people can search in the.

transcript the word Jew. It appears I. guess a couple times and that's what. you're referring to. >> Um your back and forth argument actually. came about 15 minutes after that moment. because you kind of were patiently. waiting. and I had to get back to it. kind of thing. Yeah. >> Yeah. And you know there is no. disrespect, Matt, and I really apologize. if there's any uh hurt or any anything. like that. >> And and it's true that the thing did. really turn into an argument at that. point. I mean, he called Jim Loe of all. people a vicious anti-semite, which is.

just completely hilarious considering. how Jewish Jim Lo is. And what an. extraordinarily. sweet and kind and decent gentleman he. is. It's the most ridiculous thing in. the world. when we were on the curb. outside arguing, he said JJ Goldberg of. the Jewish Daily Forward also is a. vicious anti-semite. because he wrote something that. explained the difference between. Netanyahu and Ariel Chiron's positions. on Iraq and Iran. In other words, Mark. Dubious, Mark Dubowitz is very dubious.

He is uh not a serious man and he's in a. sense not really a man as much as just a. foreign agent representing a position on. behalf of a foreign power. And as I said. in that debate, do you think, and I mean. this honestly for anyone listening, you. don't have to answer, but does anyone. think that Mark Dubowitz really regrets. that Americans died on September 11th. because of what Israel was doing? He would hide behind, no, they hate us. cuz we're free. No, maybe he'd say they. were mad about our presence in Saudi.

Arabia, but he would never say, "Yeah, but that's cuz Martin Indick said so.". And that's because and and the Kana. massacre helped motivated Muhammad Ata. He just elied that point just like all. Israel lobbyists would. How could they. justify? You know, I wish I knew the. animosity you have for Mark Dwis cuz I. was part of my I'm not very good at this. the moderator thing, but I was very. confused by the animosity in the room. >> Well, it's the dishonesty to even if I. just met him that day like everything. out of his mouth was some kind of.

twisted fact. Like, yes, there was a. Kobar Tower attack, but you going to. blame that on the Ayatollah when it was. Bin Laden that did that. And we all know. that that's true. So, don't sit here and. try to give me some pro-Israel, you know, my truth. There's only the. truth. And Mark Dubowitz is not. associated with it. He has an agenda. And but you're right that I should have. made that clear that what this is is. this is a foreign lobbyist trying to get. America to serve a foreign nation. And I. am the guy from America and anti-war.com.

trying to fend him off. And look, and I. I I accept too that I ain't so mature. for a 49year-old, whatever. 48 then. I. was I was a very immature 48 at the. time, but I lose my temper very quickly. when people lie. I just can't stand it. I just don't have time to listen to. people being willfully dishonest to me. or in front of me, you know? >> Yeah. And I'm glad we got a chance to. clear that up. We're going to go hard. and and uh for as long as needed. >> Great. And yeah, I no hard feelings at.

all, man. I'm glad we worked it out, too. >> Do do we go to Rock War to first? >> Well, let's do Wait, let's let's stay on. Bill Clinton in the '90s for a minute. because, >> you know, we're talking about the. neocons got brought up in the in the. sense that they did help to encourage. Iraq war I although I don't think they. were the real, you know, kingpins behind. it or whatever in the way that they were. in Iraq War II. Um and then the doctrine. of global dominance that Wolf Witz. developed you know in '92 that became. more or less the standard for foreign. policy thought in through the '90s. Um.

and then but during the Clinton years. it's really important to mention that. Bill Clinton backed the Mjahedine even. though they were already attacking us in. the United States and American targets. overseas. Bill Clinton kept backing them. in Bosnia, Kosovo and in Cheschna and to. a greater degree than I understood. Now, mostly this means working with the. Saudis and the Brits to support them and. including Bin Laden himself was seen by. at least four credible journalists in.

Isovich's office, the president of. Bosnia in Sievo in 199 I guess four. um. and and his men fought there and Bill. Clinton knew it and Richard Hullbrook. said we could have never won without. their help and all these kinds of. things. I got all the sources in the. latest book provoked I go into much. further detail about this even than in. the terror war book enough already. Um. and and and the same was true in Cheshna. too. And essentially and as we've seen.

and you know this from just your own. recent memory, right? That as we've seen. in Syria as well, that as long as the. bin Laden are killing Serbs or Russians. or Shiites, then it's cool. And that's. what America and Britain and Saudi use. them for. And so even though their first. attack in the United States was Rabbi. Kahane in 1990, the leader of the Koch. party, who's a very right-wing Israeli. rabbi who advocated for the. extermination or expulsion of all. Palestinians from all of historic.

Palestine and his party had been banned. by the Israeli Supreme Court for being. fascist and was banned from Israeli. politics, but he was a radical rabbi, lived in New York, I believe, and he was. assassinated in 1990 by a guy who was. part of Egyptian Islamic Jahad. Now, this is that was their first hit. Then. in '92, they hit us at a hotel in Aiden, Yemen. Then in '93, they did the first. World Trade Center attack. Now, it's. worth dwelling on this one for a second. because Bill Clinton had just been. present for a month and a week. It was.

the end of February, February 26, 1993. And the truck bomb, they parked it in. the wrong place. It could have toppled. one tower over into the other. It could. have just that truck bomb without. another one. If they had put it in the. wrong place, it could have toppled one. tower over into the other at 5:00 in the. afternoon, right? And so, and then from. there into more and more towers. Who. knows? Like there could have been tens. and tens and tens of thousands of people. killed. And it almost worked.

And the thing is about that, a couple. things. First of all, the CIA had. allowed these guys into the country when. INS wanted to keep them out because they. said, "We know these guys. They are. friends from the Afghan war. We don't. mind them. And let them in. So they're. all living in Brooklyn in dangerous. terrorists. Then the second thing was. that the FBI had a walk-in informant, a. guy named Immad Salem, who was an. Egyptian army intelligence officer, former one, and he had been recruited by. them, and he allowed them to recruit him.

to be the bomb maker. "You can trust me. I'm a military guy. I can make the. bomb," he said. Then he went to the FBI. said, "I've been recruited by some. terrorists to make a bomb." And there. were two agents who believed him. Floyd. uh and Antisf Nancy Floyd and John. Antisf were the agents working the case. And the plan was they were going to use. him to use an inert powder, make a a. fake bomb, and it' be a perfect sting. But the thing is, their boss was a guy. named Carson Dunar. And he would not he.

in fact demanded they cut his pay the. informants pay from $500 to $300 a week. and demanded he wear a wire on the floor. of the mosque where he you know while I. stand he's sleeping on the floor of the. mosque with these guys he can't wear a. wire right so he ends up bugging out and. says I think the FBI's on to me and bugs. out then they brought in Ramsay Yousef. the guy who built the bomb the real bomb. the real terrorist who came in and uh. again almost topple one tower over the. end of the. problem is a couple of things. Only six.

people died. That's a lot of people if. you're one of the six or the survivors. of the six, right? I'm not saying that. But I'm just saying in the imagination. of the American people, it was kind of. just not that big of a deal. And New. York City's pretty far from here and. just people were not feeling it nearly. as much as say for example both of them. collapsing with 3,000 people inside. still, right? So. then also 2 days later the ATF raided. the branch devidians and thus began a 6. weeks long siege of this religious group.

100 miles up the road from here who. ultimately the FBI and the army delta. force massacred uh on April the 19th 93. So the American people's attention was. just completely diverted and Clinton's. too. This is his whole first hundred. days is all bogged down in Waco and this. kind of thing. So, and who wants to. learn a bunch of Arab names and all of. this stuff? It just to the FBI agents, they didn't do a very good job of. following up and and and preventing the. same group from carrying out things. Now, they had I think I don't really.

know enough about this. I need to go. back and reread about the Holland. Tunnels plot, the UN building and all. that. I think that was the setup where. they were trying to get the rest of. these guys in a sting basically on that. pl that that part of the plot. Um but um. in 1995. the bin Laden attacked and killed. Americans training the Saudi National. Guard. And in 1996 they blew up the. Cobbar Towers. in um Dan, Saudi Arabia. And that was a.

truck bombing that killed 19. American airmen who were stationed there. to bomb Iraq. and that was who was the. target. But then what happened was the. Saudi kingdom in alliance with the. corrupt criminal Louis free of course. the director of the federal intelligence. agency uh federal bureau of. investigation um they who were in charge. not CIA they had the the mandate to. treat all these al-Qaeda attacks as. crimes as they are crimes under federal.

code. So his FBI took the lead at that. time and Louis Free wanted to believe. the story that somehow it was. Iranianbacked. Shiite Saudi Hezbala that had done the. attack because of course the Saudi. monarchy hates their Shiite majority and. they just happen to live right on top of. where all the oil is and they didn't. want to blame it on Bin Laden who was. you know adjacent to the royal family. and who they wanted to take care of. themselves etc. And so they blamed it on. Iran. But it was Bin Laden who did it.

And the FBI agent in charge, John. O'Neal, knew that it was them who did. it. His enemy, Michael Shyer, from the. CIA, also knew that it was bin Laden who. did it. And bin Laden himself bragged. about it to uh uh Abdel Bari Atwan, the. editor of Alud's Alarabi in London, and. named the names of the martyrs and. celebrated them and said, "That's. exactly right. Are you listening now?". And all of these things about it. It was. al Qaeda that did that. Then in 1998. they hit the African embassies and in um.

2000 they hit the USS Cole. They had. bailed on an attack against the USS the. Sullivanss. Uh the dinghy sank and then. they hit the coal killed 17 sailors in. Aiden in 2000. >> So this is uh these attacks are building. up in. >> these are building up and building up in. the runup to September 11th. And then. the whole time they're saying exactly. why they're doing this. So, we know. their motive and they're also saying. their strategy, their strategy is to. provoke us into invading Afghanistan.

They're going to replicate, they're. going to give us our own Afghanistan the. way we gave the Soviets their own. Vietnam in Afghanistan. And bin Laden. said repeatedly, "The point was to. provoke us into overreacting, to bog us. down, bleed us to bankruptcy, break our. empire on the rocks of Afghanistan the. same way we had helped them do to the. USSR.". And so then W. Bush when he was elected,

his son, Bin Laden's son gave an. interview to Rolling Stone in 2010 where. he says, "I was in Afghanistan with my. father and when Bush was elected in. 2000. My father was so happy." He said, "This is the kind of president he needs, one who will attack and spend money and. break the country." He said, "This is in. 2010, so Bin Laden's still alive." He. says, "Bill Clinton sent missiles after. my father and didn't get him. But now. you spent 10 years in Afghanistan and.

you still haven't gotten him. America. used to be smart, not like the bull that. runs after the red scarf.". Okay, so that was the strategy was to. get America to kill itself, to get us to. strap on the suicide vest. Get the irony of the whole thing? How is. a group of 400 bandits hiding out in. Nangahar province supposed to bring down. the Empire? The answer is you give the.

Empire an excuse to exploit. It's not that George Bush is stupid and. innocent. It's that he's stupid and. guilty, right? You know, it's not that. Bin Laden thought, "Oh, here's a guy. who's such a super patriot that he'll go. the extra mile." He looked at Bush said, "Here's a guy who's a corrupt, evil, narrow-minded, shortsighted idiot of a. criminal who will exploit a crisis to. the nth degree if I give him one." And.

that's what I'm trying to do. And which, by the way, consider the collectivism of. Osama bin Laden, who considers that. there's no limit apparently on the. number of Afghans that he can get killed. and his plan here when he ain't from. there, right? He's trying to provoke a. war with a superpower against a regime. that's allowed him to stay and against a. people who did nothing to him or to us, right? A people, I hate that, but some. people, millions of people who did. nothing to us whatsoever. And he put.

them in our crosshairs on what? The. idea, well, God will sort them out. They'll go to paradise if they believe. well. And so, who cares about them? And. which was something that was a big. problem with Mullah Omar where Mullah. Omar despite the narrative actually. hated and feared Osama bin Laden and. wanted rid of him and was trying to. negotiate to get rid of him because as. Marie Rothbart says a radical becomes a. conservative the day he captures the. capital city. Right? And so Mullahar. didn't want a world revolution like you. know uh Osama bin Lenon, right? He.

wasn't interested in that. He was. interested in holding down Afghanistan. He'd already won most of the country. He. hadn't finished winning it all yet. And. he wasn't trying to get in a fight with. America, which Bill Clinton had. supported the rise of the Taliban in. 1996. Had encouraged Saudi Arabia and. Pakistan to encourage the Taliban to go. all the way to Kabell. And in fact, wanted them to not even settle with the. Northern Alliance. wanted to see an. outright victory against the northern. alliance because they wanted the Taliban.

to have total control, a monopoly on the. entire state so they could build a oil. pipeline from Tajikhstan across. Afghanistan to Pakistan. Now, they. abandoned this project after 98, after. the embassy bombings of 98. People. sometimes say that's why Bush invaded in. '01 or whatever. No, that wasn't it. But. but that is why Bill Clinton supported. the rise of the Taliban in 1996 in the. first place. They said, "Well, we figure. there will be an Amir and no parliament. and lots of Sharia law. We can live with.

that." That was the Bill Clinton. administration is what they said about. that, right? It's in Ahmed Rashid's. book, The Taliban, has all that stuff in. it, and I quote him at length in my. books. Um, and so what was the point of. that? Screwing the Russians, figuring. out a way to get hydrocarbons out of the. Caspian Basin without having to go. through Russia or Iran. And so that was. part of that whole game, which we'll. have to talk about that in later in the. Cold War segment here. Um but that's. part where these stories overlap a bit. Now um so it's important to bring up too.

that during this time the cliche in the. Pentagon among the joint staff who are. the most important policy planners for. the Pentagon. They had a cliche that said terrorism is. a small price to pay for being a. superpower. Right? What are they going to do? They're going to set off a truck bomb. here or there. They're going to kill a. few hundred people here or there. Look. at the African embassies. It was mostly. Africans who died. And so. the I don't think that they thought that.

losing a couple of towers full of a. couple of thousand people would be a. small price to pay. I think they were. not imagining that level of consequence. But after all, they did have to hijack. our airliners to have something to crash. into anything. We are talking about a. stateless group of essentially penniles. bandits, right? who have millions of. dollars, not billions, much less. trillions, right? These are these were. criminals, right? Outlaws, terrorists. So, they had no ability to truly bring.

us down. They had to And of course, the. analogy to Pearl Harbor is perfect. because 3,000 people died in a sneak. attack. What more do you need to know? And I kind of like to harp on this. Not. that I ever really like studied. psychology more than a couple semesters. in junior college, but it seems probably. meaningful, right? that in the images. the planes literally come out of the. clear blue sky, right? And so jeez, I. guess I don't know what's behind this. Someone explain it. It's just like.

Tabula, man. Go ahead and let me know. what I'm supposed to think about this. I'm shocked and I'm completely surprised. said you know of course people who knew. a lot about this were very worried about. it of course but for the average. American and this was the meaning of the. term blowback by the way as Talmer's. Johnson explained and it was coined in. Donald Wilbur who was a CIA historian in. his afteraction report against about the. coup in Iran he said we CIA officers. going to have to be very careful about.

blowback coming down the line from. operations like this and then as Johnson. explained What it really meant was not. just consequences because you can just. have a funny term for consequences, but. blowback meant the long-term. consequences of secret foreign policies. So that when they come due, the American. people don't understand what it means. Why are the Iranians burning our flag? Why are the bin Laden crashing into our. towers? Somebody tell us cuz we don't. know. And when the answer is, well, it's. actually all our fault, then the.

security force, our national government. will not tell us that. In fact, they'll. make up a lie and say, "Islam makes them. hate us because we love our mamas and. Jesus so much." And then people go, "Oh. man, what a terrible psychopathic, I. didn't realize Islam was that bad of a. religion. We better have to fight all of. them now." If that's what it does to. you, it's radical Islam. See, once you. believe in Islam hard enough, it turns. you into a suicide bomber. It makes you. hate North Americans. There is no other. cause and effect that you guys need to. be aware of. And.

people might not remember this, but boy. did they push it that fall that the. Taliban had done it. Al Qaeda was the. Taliban. The Taliban was Al Qaeda. >> You mean 2001? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> That they was Taliban, then they were an. Al Qaeda and then. >> they conflated them together so. powerfully that then this became a. reason why people were just so doubtful. about the entire narrative because. they're going, "What do you mean a bunch. of cavemen from the town of Bedrock out. there in Kandahar Province? did this to.

us because they don't like that we have. a bill of rights. Like that obviously is. not true. So what is the truth? And then. people come up with endless answers. other than the obvious one, which is. America has a really bad Middle East. policy and Israel is a real big part of. that. That's the answer is blowback. Again, Egyptians volunteering for a. Saudi to kill Americans as revenge for. what Israel is doing to the Lebanese. It's a little bit complicated, but not. that complicated if you want to be.

honest. But at the end, what is it? It's. all George Bush's fathers and Bill. Clinton's fault, right? And so, what are. they going to do? I remember being I was. sitting in Chicago when 911 happened. I. remember being really confused in the. months after in the hours and the days. and the months after with all the. narratives that were coming out. It. didn't quite make sense. A lot of the. thing it almost felt like they're. improvising with different stories that. will convince the American people. >> And I remember being extremely confused.

Iraq. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Saddam Hussein. Here's they're trying to see who can we. create. >> the evil guy out of. >> Al Qaeda, Taliban, and then they just ran with it. I mean, can you can you just. can you break that down? what the. different lies that end up sticking that. were used to mislead us into the war. >> Yeah. Well, so on Afghanistan, it's. clear that the CIA and Connies Rice, and.

we know this, not that Bob Woodward is. really trustworthy, but he published. supposedly verbatim verbatim transcripts. from the National Security Council. meetings in his book Bush at War. And so. we know from those National Security. Council meetings that Connies Rice and. the CIA were advising that we try our. best to divide the Taliban from al Qaeda. and let the Taliban know we don't have a. fight with you. We're just after these. Arabs that hit us.

In fact, it's very important. The. Taliban tried to warn us that the attack. was coming and were essentially turned. away. They warned the UN in Pakistan and. they sent a guy to the United States and. he was denied a meeting at the State. Department at all and went home and they. only knew it was true because that an. attack was coming because they had. learned it from a Tajik jihadist or a I. believe a Tajik who was one of their. informants basically told them bin Laden. didn't tell Mullah Omar in the summer of. 2001 Moola Omar had told uh Arnode.

Deborra from the Washington Times he. said bin Laden is like a chicken bone. stuck in my throat. quot I can neither. swallow him nor spit him out. And Milton. Bearden, who had helped run the CIA. covert or in the 1980s, told the. Washington Post, we've been negotiating. with Mullah Omar over Bin Laden since. 98. After the Africa embassy attack, Omar said, I got to get rid of this guy. And he ordered Bin Laden, don't you do. any more attacks against the United. States. And bin Laden had promised him. that he wouldn't. And then kept. attacking anyway. And um so Mullah Omar,

this is the dictator of the Taliban. ruling regime in in in Afghanistan. Uh. Milton Bearden said that the Taliban. would tell the CIA, "Oh, Bin Laden. Gez, you know, we lost track of him today. He's out falconing in the countryside. somewhere. We don't know where he is.". And then the Americans would pound their. fist on the table and say, "We said hand. him over." when that's what he just said. was go ahead and kill him. He's outside.

of our protection right now and if you. were to murder him, it would not be our. fault. Take your best drone strike. Take. the best hint. That's Milton Bearden. talking about. That's where I got this. from. Okay? The Taliban hated this dude. He was nothing but trouble and they. wanted rid of him. And remember what. Bush said. No negotiations. Hand him. over. They said, "Well, come on. Give us. some evidence and we'll hold a. proceeding here." And Bush said, "No. way. give them over. And Coleman Pal at. one point said, "Well, we will come up. with evidence. We will accuse them of.

this. We'll show you." And then they're. like, "Nope, no evidence." Um they the. Taliban said, "Well, tell you what. Let. us give them over to any Muslim country. in the world." Which of course, you. know, could be Malaysia or Indonesia or. Jordan or Egypt who are going to do. exactly what they're told by the United. States. He's going to land on the tarmac. and he's going to go straight to. Virginia. Give me a break. Right. Um. nope. Not good enough. Then he started. bombing on December the 8th and the. Taliban said, "Okay, we have no more. conditions. We're willing to give them.

up if you'll just stop the bombing.". Bush said, "Too little, too late. No.". And kept the war going then. Why? Why? Why? The AAMS razor answers. You can't. read the guy's mind. There's so much. circumstantial evidence about the. thinking at the time. And this was going. to what I was saying about CIA and Rice. said we should just bomb al Qaeda and. not the Taliban. Donald Rumsfeld. overruled them. said, "No, we need to. take the fight to the Taliban. We need. to keep the Afghan war going on because. we want the American people to.

understand." He actually proposed that. we should bomb Baghdad now so that the. American people understand the war on. terrorism is not over if we kill Bin. Laden. And it ain't lost if we don't. The war is much bigger than him and is. going to take place over a vast space. and a vast period of time. And we want. the American people to know that this is. not ending anytime soon. We're going to. Baghdad. It's going to take a while to.

build up the force in Kuwait and they. hoped Turkey, which didn't work out, but. in in order to go. And so if we kill Bin. Laden now, or even if we do, we want to. make sure the American people know that. the war is not over yet. And I believe. and I make the case in both books and. probably better in the second one um. fool's air and enough already that they. let Bin Laden go. The CIA and the Delta. Force on the ground were begging for. reinforcements and reinforcements were.

available. There were tens of thousands. of Rangers or at least what 10,000. Rangers or something at Bram Air Base. north of Kabell. The Green Berets were. fighting the Taliban up in Mazzari. Sharif. The 75th Airborne Rangers who. are top tier special operations forces. considered right with Delta and Navy. Seals were available in Kandahar. province and General Mattis was there. with 10,000 marching marines and he. could have told them 10 hood go now and. they had helicopters but even then they.

were like 40 mi away. Yeah, it's. mountains so what? Right. and they were. not allowed to go and to seal the. border. And the CIA and the Delta Force. are like, "Man, we got them cornered on. three sides. The fourth side is the. Pakistani border. They're going to get. away. We need more men." And the. military, they did a congressional. investigation. They said they had a. plan. It's called block and sweep and. make sure you get everybody in between. here and here, right? And that's exactly. how you do it. and the Delta Force guys. in the CIA guys uh namely uh Thomas.

Greer aka Dalton Fury in his book Kill. Bin Laden and Gary Bernson in his book. Jawbreaker talk about how they just. could not understand why they could not. get the support that they wanted. And um. and um Bernson talks about how his boss. at CIA went and laid out the desk in uh. the map and on the desk and Ron Suskin. writes about this too that they showed. Bush the map and said we need more men.

for this and they were denied the men. that they needed and then what and think. about this your whole life ever since. then talk about confusing narratives. from that time. How about this one dude? How about as soon as Bin Laden and his. friends cross the border into Pakistan. on December the 17th? Delta Force is not. allowed to chase them. Why? They always. say the same thing. I bet you do like a. Lexus Nexus thing from back then and. find how many times they use the term. Bin Laden and his men slipped across the. border. And then once that happened,

it's like they jumped into hyperspace. and got away. Once that happened, they. crossed this semi-permeable membrane. that only terrorists can cross, but that. the Delta Force top tier army special. operations forces cannot cross into a. friendly allied country of ours, Pakistan. And where we know from Robert. Gier, the CIA station chief in Islamabad. in his book 88 days to Kandahar, he had. already made arrangements with the. Pakistani army and Frontier Corps that. we expect the Bin Laden to come fleeing.

across the border and we expect. Americans to be hot on their tail in. pursuit. And so they set up deconliction. so that the Pakistanis would not. accidentally kill the Americans because. they were expected to come. They were. not allowed to cross the border and give. chase. and Daltton Furious. Man, this is. amazing, too. And maybe someone in your. audience can find the full thing, but I. went on a deep dive trying to find the. full 60 Minutes episode with Dalton. Fury, and I can only find severely. edited ones. But his name is Thomas.

Greer is his real name, and he's wearing. a disguise and everything. And he does a. thing with Scott P. And man, they edit. it because the important part that I'm. looking for is where he says, "We had. all these plans to follow them into. Pakistan. We have Chino helicopters. We. were going to go over them and then meet. them coming back the other way. We were. going to drop landmines and there were. only three valleys out of there that. they could have taken. We were going to. drop mines that was going to slow them. down. >> So they knew exactly how to kill and. they were told to stand down.

>> and they were not allowed by Donald. Rumsfeld in the military to go further. And and even we have W. Bush and Dick. Cheney both implicated this too in that. Suskin book where they and Bernson I. believe talks about this in his book too. where Thomas Greer is the guy who wrote. Kill Bin Laden and was on 60 Minutes. He. was the lieutenant colonel in the Delta. Force in charge there and then Gary. Bernson was the guy on the scene who. wrote the book Jawbreaker and then his. boss was Henry Crumpton and he was the. guy who had laid the map out onto Bush's.

desk and said we need more men and was. denied by Bush himself. So it might be. nice to blame just Rumsfeld, but it was. the president himself who refused to. commit the forces necessary to get Bin. Laden in. And it is just a. circumstantial a circumstantial case. I. don't have a direct quote of any of. these people saying this, but it seems. pretty clear to me that they decided. that they would prefer that Bin Laden go. so that like in the book 1984, they. would have Emanuel Goldstein, the enemy, the wrecker, the sabotur out there, the. danger who could still kill you. He's. not gone yet. Wy Bush used to love to. say, "Imagine Saddam Hussein.

giving Bin Laden's hijackers chemical. weapons. Imagine September 11th only. this time armed by Saddam Hussein. Well, Bin Laden's already dead. And the. American the American people by and. large believe that that's what you get. for messing with us, pal. We win, you. lose, and it's over by Christmas. Well, then how the hell are we going to go to. a Baghdad? It's going to take us a year. and a half to build up the forces and to. make people's mom and dad scared enough.

to think that we need to do this. We. have a massive propaganda campaign to. wage here. And here's where we get right. back into the neoonservatives again. In. March of 2002, Justin Roando wrote a. piece at anti-war.com and it's called. our hijacked foreign policy. Neocons's. take Washington, Baghdad is next. Mhm. >> And Justin was a brilliant genius. And. because he was a libertarian, he had a. longtime ideological axe to grind and.

personal enemy relationship with these. neocons. You know, us libertarians, we. really are their polar opposite on so. many things. And he called it the axis. of crystal there, the little lenin of. the neoconservative movement. and he. he's here citing benevolent global. hegemony is the actual quote. He kind of. got that a little wrong. It's Bill. Crystal and Robert Kagan wrote this. article in foreign affairs in 1996.

toward a neoraganite foreign policy. where they say we have to have. benevolent global hegemony and that's. what he's talking about there. And he's. talking about the few people and I have. to tell you man I was really interested. in foreign policy politics and all these. things for many years leading up to. this. But if you just asked me what's a. Republican I would have said Houston, right? James Baker III, right? Dark Lord. of the Sith, lawyer for Exxon. That's what conservatism is. Is big. business, right? It's, you know, I don't. know what else what. I knew who Bill. Crystal was, but I didn't know who he.

was, right? I knew there was the Weekly. Standard. I knew they were crazy after. Saddam Hussein. I didn't know why. And I. didn't look enough into it leading up to. then. >> It's so interesting to uh sorry to. interrupt, but. >> sure. >> Sort of the lens of this analysis in. 2002. I need to go back and read some of. this. >> You need to go back and read all of. Justin from 1999 all the way through the. whole day. >> Get yourself a rainy day. You can stop. about halfway through Obama probably. >> But man, at this time he was the most.

important writer for America. As. neglected as he was, there was nobody. better at what was happening to this. country at that time. >> Even from just a brief glance, I could. see the cutting wit and the brilliance. and the humor. >> You know what he was? He was a big gay. Pat Buchanan. He's big gay Archie Bunker. from San Francisco, right? He was he he. was a right-winger and a paleo. libertarian, but like Buchananite. leaning. He gave Pat Buchanan's. nomination speech for the Reform Party. in 1999.

And and he's, you know, a right-wing. libertarian, but he is what he is. He's. at where he's at. And so it sounds kind. of ironical or whatever. Why would a gay. guy like Pat Buchanan so much? And it's. because Papuchan at that time his. reputation was very much the culture war. and very much like gay people should. still stay in the closet and things like. that. And so Justin was like I don't. care about that. What matters is the. world empire. And then even here he's a. right-winger too. It's not that he's a.

liberal and he founds found a. right-winger that he likes. It's that. Patrick in Canada is like the perfect. kindred spirit even though you might. think not. But Justin was from Queens. and he was from that era, you know, raised in the 1950s and60s. He was a a. crusty old paleocon in his way. And um. and that was why he was so good. And. when I first started reading him, I. remember saying even to my friends, how. does this guy know all this stuff? It's. just unbelievable how plugged in he is. And he lives out in San Francisco, but. he knows everything happening at every.

important think tank in Washington. And. he knows the difference between them. all. He knows who all these guys are and. what their role is and who is whose. mentor and student and all of these. things in a way is just unbelievable. And he had the neocons's number man. And. yes, Iraq war I was their war and it was. mostly for Israel. I'm severely. distracted by how how hilarious his. writing is. Uh I'm glancing. >> No, it's all right. It's all right. I I. won't it'll be a rabbit hole that will. go into but he goes hard against the neo.

conservatives. >> Oh, so bad. And look, his first article. was about the Kosovo War in 1999. And he. goes after the neoconservatives right. then and there from the very get-go. He. used to love to quote this guy um uh I. believe David Tall in the Weekly. Standard said about Slobon Malloich that. he better do what we say or he knows. we'll kick their skulls in. And he's. like, "Yeah, this is who the. neoconservatives are, dude. They're. barbarians essentially, Bill Crystal's. men.". >> Quick pause. I'm sorry. I need another.

bathroom break. Uh, and then maybe you. can get back to military-industrial. complex. >> Oh, yeah. Okay. So, before we get too. far into Iraq War 2 and the. neoconservatives, we need to decide. whether we want to talk about the. Afghanistan war now or whether we want. to come back and talk more about. Afghanistan later or maybe not even at. all or whatever. You got to make that. call because there's plenty to talk. about there as a hugely important thing. On the other hand, of course, and this. is the same dilemma I faced when I was. writing enough already. It's like how. much can I tell you about Afghanistan.

before I got to bring you to Iraq which. is the heart of the story that. everybody's so interested in where most. of the action takes place. It's on the. other side of Iran from Afghanistan and. Afghanistan remained on the margin. throughout the whole thing even though. it's in itself it was its own huge. thing. So, but I leave that to you to. like how far you want to get into that. and when. >> I I think uh Iraq specifically is a is a. the deepest the most thorough case study. of the military-industrial complex and. the abuse of power. So, as much as we.

can explore that great and I think it. was really insightful we described that. >> right there in Afghanistan. >> uh we could have gotten Bin Laden. There's a lot of places where this did. not have to go as long as it did. And. that that was that highlights one clear. moment. >> Yeah. But real tragedy. It really is. They could have negotiated and they. could have killed him and the whole. thing really could have been over by. Christmas. And by the way, Gary Bernson. said that. He said that to the reporter.

Michael Hirs in 2016. He said, "It's. really sad when you think about it. How. this thing could have all been over by. Christmas.". So that ain't just me. That's them. That's him. That's the guy who was the. second CIA officer on scene in charge. who wrote and you read his book. You. know how editors do this sometimes when. a CIA guy writes a book, they'll lead. the redaction marks in the big black. boxes because it's like good. salesmanship to do that, right? So when. you read Gary Bernson's book, he goes. and there I was and me and my fellow CIA.

officers were talking about how. frustrated we were that we could not. understand why they wouldn't give us. reinforcements while he's getting away. And then the next four sentences are. blacked out. That's like, you know, and then and same thing for. for Dalton Fury, uh, Thomas Greer. So, how do we get to Iraq? >> Let's do Iraq. Here's where we're going. to start Iraq. First of all, Wolawitz. and all them wanted to go all the way to. Baghdad in 1990. and senior told them no and stopped. short of that. Also, let Saddam crush.

the Iraqi up the Shiite and Kurdish. uprising. Then of course we have the. status quo of Bill Clinton's containment. policy, dual containment policy from. Iraq, from Saudi Arabia against Iraq and. Iran through the 1990s, sanctions, no-fly zone bombings and all of that. So. in and by the way, there were two failed. CIA coups in 1995 and 1996 against. Saddam. Um, one of them was the one that. got Robert Bear in so much trouble cuz. he was working with Ahmed Chalaby the. Iraqi exile to try to overthrow Saddam.

and it all went to hell cuz it Chalabi. was basically selling them uh Chalabi. was basically making a bunch of promises. to them about how it would go. That of. course did not work out at all. And so. this is where the CI first put their. burn notice on him. So Ahmed Chabi is. this important Iraqi exile. He was a. banker in Jordan who then fled the. country because he was want wanted for. embezzling money. And here he was. selling the CIA on all of his promises.

about what he could do in Iraq and then. he was not coming through. And so that's. sort of a minor part of the story. But. then in 1996, David Wormser, who's an important. neoonservative. uh in alliance with the more important. neoonservative, Richard Pearl, and also. Douglas Fe, their fellow traveler. And I. think there were two more people signed. it. It may have been Charles Fairbanks. Jr. and one other guy signed it, too. I. think um it was really worms and pearl.

talking. Okay. And it's called a clean. break, a new strategy for securing the. realm. Oh man, you know what? Hell, as. long as we're doing this, we want to do. this, right? >> Hell yeah. So, we want to talk about. Rockward 2. What we got to do is let's. go back to. the early 1990s in Yeak Rabbine. >> Now, Israel had a strategy, as I said, being friends with Iran. At the same. time, they're friends with Turkey and. friends with Ethiopia. Why? This was.

called the strategy of the periphery in. Israel. It meant if you picture the map, okay, from Israel's perspective, want to. support Turkey to divide Syria's. attention. We want to support Iran to. divide Iraq's attention. And we want to. support Ethiopia to divide Egypt's. attention. Does that make sense. geographically speaking? >> Yes. >> So, Rabbine says, "Nope, we're going to. turn that upside down." And what we're. going to do instead is we're going to. negotiate with the Arabs, the closer. states. And we're going to even make a.

deal with Yaser Arafat. And this is the. Oslo peace process that were being. started. Now, they weren't really going. to give them an independent state. They. were going to give them something like a. shining on pseudo sort of kind of. independent state, which actually. probably would have been the best. solution, right? Would be you have your. local police forces, but we are in one. country together kind of a thing. There. are lots of states that are have kind of. complicated arrangements like that and. pull it off. Um, but anyway, this was. Rabbine's plan. But then a Netanyahu fan.

murdered him in 1995. This was when Shimone Perez took over. Now Shimone Perez had been the. president. He's now promoted to prime. minister and he continues the same. policy. This is why Oh, I'm sorry. the. in the re I should have mentioned in the. reversal of the periphery doctrine and. negotiating with the Arabs part of that. was now turning on Iran and demonizing. Iran because just for domestic political.

reasons in Israel they rabbin had to be. tough against somebody so now it's Iran. that's the problem and that's why we. need to negotiate with the Arabs even. right so um he makes that change in 1993. three. In fact, there's a funny anecdote. in Treacherous Alliance by Treat Parsy. again where the Clinton people were. surprised and even laughed because what. do you mean you hate Iran now? Last week. you were demanding that we like Iran. along with you. Now you've changed your.

mind. But what happened? And all that. happened was Israel changed their mind. They just had a different policy now. It. wasn't any particular thing that Iran. had done at that point to cross their. line. And so they just decided that this. was important to do now. And so. somebody's got to be the enemy. So now. the enemy is going to be Shiite. fundamentalist Islam revolutionary. Iranian uh threat. Um and in fact as one. of one important Israeli strategist told. Parsy, we needed new glue for the. alliance with the United States now that.

we don't have the Soviet Union anymore. Why does America need us? And the answer. is radical Islam. And of course that's. great because you could be anybody as. long as you're Muslim. You can be called. radical Islam. And it doesn't matter how. radical or which sect or whose side. you're on or anything, right? You can. just do anything with that, right? For. you apply that to Palestinians or. anybody else. So that's a great one like. for propaganda wise from the Israeli. point of view. Um and so then when. Shimon Perez took over after Rabbine was.

assassinated, he launched Operation. Grapes of Wrath reinvading Lebanon as. part of that same doctrine. See, we're. going after the Shiites now. And that. was again the operation that motivated. the lead hijacker of September 11th to. join the jihad against us right there. That was why he did that was part of. that same strategy. Right? But then. Shimon Perez's rule was shortlived and. Benjamin Netanyahu first came in and. became the prime minister of Israel for. the first time in 1996. Okay. Now David. Worms and Richard Pearl write this study.

for him. It's called A Clean Break, a. new strategy for securing the realm. Again, you can find that at. scottton.org/bear. /bearuse. And in. fact, I'm sure there are archive.org. versions of it. You can find it. It was. the this Israeli think tank published. it. It wasn't an American think tank. It. was the Israeli Center for Strategic. Study or something like that. Um, posted. it there. Um, >> yes, it's posted at scotthorn.org/fair. use, a clean break, a new strategy of. securing the realm by David Warser,

1996. >> And the the companion piece, as it says. there, is called coping with crumbling. states. coping with crumbling states, a. western and Israeli balance of power. strategy for the Levant by David Wars in. 1996. And both of these, well, certainly. the first one is officially signed off. on by Richard Pearl. And then I should. have hot links on those. I'm not sure. why I don't, but there are three related. articles here by Loenberg, Worms, and. and Pearl promoting the same agenda in.

the newspapers there um in the. Washington Times and the Wall Street. Journal. Okay? Okay. And they're called. uh the ultimate peace process prize. Justice Adam Saddam's power is under. assault. The balance of power all three. pieces. Yeah. And now there's even a. book. It's called Tyranny's Ally by. David Worms with a forward by Richard. Pearl. They all say the same thing. Okay. What they say is that we're. Israeli agents and Ahmed Chalabi sold us.

a bunch of crap and we bought it. And. it's this magic theory about how. overthrowing Saddam is going to be good. for Israel. Now, oh, don't let me leave. out that as part of Israel's secret. relationship with Iran through the 1980s. or their friendship continuing through. the 1980s and into the 1990s, they had a. secret oil pipeline from the port of. Aaba, which I never say that right. I. forget how to pronounce it right, but. it's we're talking about the Sinai. Peninsula in the in the Red Sea. Now, on.

the western side of the Sinai Peninsula. is the Suez Canal in the gate to the. Mediterranean Sea. On the eastern side. of the Sinai Peninsula is the port of. Aaba there. Okay. And there was a secret. oil pipeline that was run by Mark Rich's. company, the guy that Bill Clinton. pardoned on his last day in office, who. is this corrupt financeier and uh oil. industry guy. and he his company had this secret. pipeline where Iranian ships would come.

and drop off oil and it would then go. through this pipeline to Israel, right? Well, once Rabbine turned on Iran when. he turned the periphery strategy upside. down, then the Iranians quit sending. oil. In fact, it may not have been till. 95 that they quit sending the oil. because um. treats explains that Iran didn't start. backing Hamas until 95 or at least maybe. they had given them a little bit or. something. It was uh they had given them.

very little until then and so it was it. was provocations by Rabbine against Iran. had finally after a year and a half of. this or more I believe if I'm. remembering it right. I don't think it. was 93. I think it wasn't until '95 that. Iran finally said fine then if you guys. are going to be that way and stopped. shipping the oil in. So now this becomes. a major interest of the neoconservatives. and the lood party and Ahmed Chali. understands very quickly that this is. what these guys want to hear is that if.

America will put him and his friends in. power in Iraq, they'll be friends with. Israel. Now, in the original clean. break, they say they want to use the. cousin of the king of Jordan, and. they're going to put a Hasheite kingdom. in their legs to rule Iraq. Now, the. magic theory here is that, let's do a. very, very elementary divide of the. Sunnis and the Shiites here, history. lesson. Okay, the Shiites went off with. Muhammad's family after he died. The. Sunnis picked their own imams, right?

So, there's like kind of one hierarchy. It's a very very very inept but very. crude comparison between the Protestants. and the Catholics. There's one Shiite. church basically right under the. Ayatollas and their system and they. they're inherited power through the. bloodline and all of that. On the Sunni. side they pick their own ministers right. like the Protestants they have their own. and do their their many more sects and. different kinds of Sunnis and that sort. of deal. If that makes sense on the most. basic level here. Okay. So, um, not that.

I'm saying the Shiites claim to be. priests or anything like more analogous. with the Catholic Church. I'm not saying. that. I'm just saying there's this order. of Ayatollas the same way there are of. the cardinals and whatever, if you. understand. So, the deal is this. Yes, the Shiites do rever their clergy. leadership who are descended from. Muhammad and evidently can prove it. I. don't know. Apparently, right, and wear. their black turbans and that means that. they share his bloodline and all that. Okay. Well, the Hashemites also declare.

themselves to be his descendants. Whether that's true or not, whatever, fine. Take it for face granted and it. is. But they're Sunnis. So, the thing is. about the Shiites revering people with. the blood of the prophet. They're. they're Shiite clergy. It doesn't mean. that they consider them to be infallible. dictators whose will is their law and. all of these things. Like even the pope. says some things are my opinion. Some. things I'm speaking for the Lord, but. sometimes I'm just saying I think this. is how it should be your way. You know. what I mean? So, so the ayatollas do not.

exercise like a spellbinding power over. these people through mysticism and and. like irrational demands of religious. feely to their every order or whatever, right? Like there's it's a much more. consensual relationship than that or. whatever. You know what I mean? It's not. completely top down sort of thing like. that. and like where they have this. magic spell of their bloodline then is. like acts as hypnosis or whatever or or. or.

demands total obedience. It that's just. never been the implication of the thing. So Chalabi is just telling these guys. whatever they need to hear. that if we. put a Hashemite king in there, then he. will be able to tell the Shiite clergy. that they better stop being friends with. Iran. and that they better tell Hezbala to. stop being friends with Iran and then. Hezbollah will be friends with Israel. and then the Israelis. can finish stealing Palestine without.

having to worry about Hezbala causing. them problems on their northern flank. That's the clean break. Now, here's the thing about this, man. Picture the region in your head a little. bit or pull up the map again if you need. to. You got here's David Wormser's. argument, okay? He's saying Iran backs. Hezbollah in southern Lebanon by way of. Syria. So, what we want to do is get rid of. Saddam Hussein,

the secular Sunni who's the roadblock to. all this, right? Huh? Well, again, magic wish. What's. going to happen is our Sunni king will. just enslave the will of the Shiite. supermajority and they'll be our cat's. paws and do whatever we want and will. lord them over Iran. David Worms said, "Chalaby assures us that a democratic. Shiite Iraq will be a nightmare for Iran. because the Iranians will want to live.

like the Iraqis in their wonderful new. awesome supermajority Shiite democracy.". And so under the rule of their. benevolent king or however because they. end up changing it a little bit I guess. and emphasizing the democracy part more. later but still it would be a nightmare. for Iran because what happened was I. think the king of Jordan died and was. replaced and they said okay forget that. we'll just put Chalabe in power himself. He'll be the guy that we put in. Now, um, they also promised, Chalabi promised. the neoonservatives, we'll build a oil.

pipeline from northern Iraq to Hifa, Israel to make up for the pipeline that. they just lost with the Iranians. Netanyahu bought this and David Wormser. and Richard Pearl bought this. And this. was one of the reasons, one of the major. reasons that 4,500 Americans and a. million Iraqis died in Iraq War II was. so Israel could save a nickel a barrel. on Iraqi oil because their own policies. had cost them their access to Iranian.

oil. And so they were paying this extra. premium after losing that source. And. this oil pipeline to Hifa was a big. deal. And you'll want to pull this up. cuz you'll want to read it later. and. laugh and weep. It's called How Ahmed. Chalabi Conned the Neocons. Okay, now for your audience, they need. to know. Disclaimer, a long time ago, salon.com did journalism. I know it sounds absurd and you probably.

don't believe me even though I know you. kind of like me and trust me, but this. guy John Dazard is from the Financial. Times. He is a solid guy. I have a very. brief acquaintance with him emailing. back and forth and he is no slouch and. this is not some woke ridiculous. propaganda. This article is very good. stuff. Go ahead. May 4th, 2004. John. Thazard how Akmed Chalabi conned the. neocons. The hawks who launched the Iraq. war believe the dealmaker exile when he. promised to build a secular democracy.

with close ties to Israel. Now the. Israel deal is dead. He's cozing up to. Iran and his patrons look like they're. on the way out. Yeah. So, in this. article, man, it's brutal. In there, he. quotes Douglas Feith. Douglas Feith was. again the third signatory on the clean. break, although I believe he now disowns. it and says, "Well, I never agreed with. that part in this kind of thing, but. whatever." and he helped run the he was. the deputy secretary of defense for. policy in the first Bush term and ran.

the office of special plans with Abram. Scholski that lied us into war using. lies funneled into the intelligence. stream by Mid Chalabe. It's a huge part. of how they lied us into war. I'm kind. of skipping ahead. I'm going to come. back to that in a minute. Okay, but in. this article they quote Douglas Fe's law. partner Mark Zel and people might follow. him on Twitter. The guy's a riot, dude. And meaning he's completely insane and a. lot of fun if you're into insane. Zionist, war hawk, genocidal lunatics. But anyway, so he has these quotes in.

here, okay? And like this is not me. talking. I'm very careful with my words. I'm a libertarian. I'm an individualist. I'm not a collectivist. And I don't go. around categorizing people by their. religion and ethnicity and all this. crap. I just don't. I want to raise that. way. It's just it is what it is. This is. Dard talking to Chaliby's friends. Okay, I'm quoting a guy, quoting a guy, quoting a guy. Okay, forgive me. I said. to Akmed, "What are you doing running. around with all these Jews?" And he.

said, "I just need them. until I can get my war. and then I'm going to stab them in the. back and we're going to get what we. want.". So, in other words, Richard Pearl is as. stupid as he is evil. and David Wormser. and Richard Pearl and Paul Wolawitz and. the neoconservative group Douglas Fe. Scooter Libby Hadley and Joseph and and. Adelman and all of these guys who lied.

um did I say Hannah and Edelman and and. um Abrams Scholski. that's what these idiots believed. >> these are all neocons. >> these are the neocons in the W Bush. administration. in the vice president's office, in the. State Department, in the defense. department that lied us into war. Coon. Powell called them the Ginsa crowd. Ginsa is the Jewish Institute for.

National Security Affairs, which at that. time, I believe, was run by David Worms. He was one of the most powerful guys. there. and they were part and parcel. with the American Enterprise Institute, the Project for a New American Century, the Center for Security Policy, and the. other of the major neoonservative think. tanks that pushed for that war at that. time. >> And they had power that influence. >> they had all the power and influence. they needed because they got it from. Dick Cheney and George W. Bush. And what. Powell said was this was a separate.

government inside the government that. was run like a cell that was run by Dick. Cheney. Worms was known as Cheny's. agent, his plant at state where his job. he and John Bolton who is not a. neoonservative because he's never any. kind of leftist. He's just a. conservative nationalist type but one of. their fellow travelers very close with. them. Bolton and Wormser's job was. preventing Powell and Armmitage, his. guy, from preventing the war to keep a.

leash on them in whatever ways that they. could obstruct their efforts. And then. um so in the vice president's office, you had Scooter Libby and Eric Edelman. and Elliot Abrams. No, no, pardon me. Elliot Abrams was on the National. Security Council with Zay Khalilzad, the. same guy who was the primary author of. the 1992 defense planning guidance along. with Libby. um and Steven Hadley who was. the deputy national security adviser. Then you had in on the defense policy. board you had Gene Kirkpatrick who again.

was from the Social Democrats USA and. the Young People's Socialist League. before she converted to commentary. magazine and Reaganism making her a. classical definition oh and as a. hardcore Zionist of course a classical. definition neoconservative along with. Kenneth Adelman and Richard Pearl was. the chair of the defense policy board. which is you know very important. position advisory board and he was. really the power behind the scenes major. ring leader of the group there. Then um. Nuke Gingrich was another fellow. traveler, the former speaker of the.

House of Representatives, um Republican. who you could consider him sort of like. John Bolton in a way where he's like. more or less one of them, but not. exactly. But for example, you may have. heard the stories about how Dick Cheney. and Scooter Libby made 14 trips to CIA. headquarters to beat them over the head. and say, "We need more against Iraq. Come up with it." And they wouldn't come. up with it enough. Well, Nuke Gingrich. did the same thing. went to CIA. headquarters over and over and over. again saying, "Give us the goods. We. don't have enough. We need more.".

>> That's really dark. Yeah. So then under. Wolawitz, the deputy secretary of. defense was Douglas Fe, who was deputy. secretary of defense for policy. And. under him was Abram Schulski. And. Scholsky was a guy who ran the office of. special plans, which sounds innocuous. enough, but this was the core of the. neoconservative plot to launder lies. from Ahmed Chalabe's exile group, the. Iraqi National Congress, into the. intelligence stream along with whatever. they could dig out of the CIA's trash.

that the CIA had decided already to. ignore. And they were they had Michael. Rubin and Michael Leadine and a whole. group of I used to know all of their. names, the guys at the office special. plans. There's six or eight of them. And. across the hall was the policy. counterterrorism evaluation group which. was led by David Wormser. Again, he's. traveling around. He's vice president's. office, he's state, he's defense, wherever they need him. And that's. Wormser and a guy named Michael Maloof. And their job was to dig through the CI. trash and the exiles lies and try to.

come up with anything to connect Saddam. to al-Qaeda and Osama bin Laden. These guys all had this agenda and man. it was Zionism is at the core of it all. and there's really just no denying that. and in many cases they admitted it and. there are very authoritative sources on. this. For example, Thomas L. Freriedman. of the New York Times for a very long. time a reporter and is now of course the. famous columnist wrote the Lexus and the. olive tree and the world is flat. Bill.

Clinton said he's the most important. public intellectual in America. He's is. a somewhat conservative Jewish Zionist. New York Times writer and Iraq war. supporter. Okay. But he gave an. interview to he's not a neoonservative. and not really a fellow traveler of. theirs. He's a guy who just lives in the. same world as them, but he knows a hell. of a lot. He's extremely plugged in. Okay, for people who don't know, look. him up. Okay, Thomas El Friedman. Thomas. Friedman gave an interview to Harets.

where he goes, "Let me tell you. something." Okay, there's nine guys. within a mile of here and they're the. ones who did it. I'm sorry I'm getting. the quote wrong. I think the nine guys. was Seymour Hurst said it was nine guys. Um but Freriedman said something very. close to that to Harets that it was the. neoconservatives. It was this very small group of guys. This was their war. They plotted it. They planned it. They made the. advertising push to make it acceptable.

It was their war and they got it. That's. what it was. Philip Zelico who is not a. neoonservative. He was more of a Council. on Foreign Relations type with Conna. Rice and um Robert Blackill and some of. those other guys who were not part of. the neoonservative set in the same. government. Zelico, you might remember. was the principal author of the 911. Commission report. A lot of people don't. like him for that for whatever reasons, good and bad probably. Um but Zelico. said, "Let me tell you something, okay,

about the motivation for the Iraq war.". And this is not something that you'll. hear very much, okay? But Saddam Hussein. paid the families of Palestinian suicide. bombers. Saddam Hussein would pay any. family who lost anybody in to Israeli. violence, no matter what or on no matter. what. So that meant if the Israelis. bulldozed some old lady in her home and. murdered her, then Saddam Hussein would. pay a bounty to her survivors. But it. also meant if some guy went and did a.

suicide attack and blew up a pizzeria. full of kids on a Friday night, Saddam. Hussein would pay a bounty to his. survivors too. So this was quite clearly. incentivizing terrorist attacks against. Israeli civilians. Right. So that is a. real security problem. for Israel. And as Philip Zelikau said, this was a. real. hard motivating factor for the. neoconservatives to want to launch this. war. So how does the military-industrial.

complex now start stepping into this. whole picture? >> Great place for this question. So Andrew. Coburn is a great author. His brother. Patrick Coburn, I mentioned previously, is the most important or at least in in. our era, has been the most important. Western journalist, especially in Iraq, I would argue. Um um Alexander Coburn is. the leftist agitator founder of. Counterpunch who died of cancer years. ago. Um and Andrew is the author who. writes the books and uh his wife Leslie.

Coburn wrote the great book Out of. Control about the Iran Contra scandal. and and then Andrew wrote Rumsfeld his. rise fall and catastrophic legacy and. killchain about the terror wars. especially the drone wars and all that. stuff. Brilliant guy. So he told me. years ago, he goes, "Listen, here's the. best way to understand the. neoonservative movement. They're the. cross between the Israel lobby and the. military-industrial complex, right? So. we already have banking and oil, and. banking and oil already has the Council.

on Foreign Relations since the end of. the First World War. That's their center. of gravity, right?" Well, the neocons. weren't all that welcome there, right? So they said, "Well, screw you guys. We'll make our own think tanks." and. they made their alliance with the. military-industrial complex who had a. lot of money at stake but not so many. egghheads to write the studies about why. their products needed to be purchased by. their captive audience the Pentagon. So, this is where the neoconservatives come. in very handy to the military-industrial.

complex. And of course, what's the. center of America's relationship with. Israel? Military support and security. guarantees, right? That's what it all. comes down to is America guaranteeing. Israel security militarily. So, how do. we do that? We do that by making. Lockheed Ridge, making Israel armed. And. so, you have this perfect alliance. between these factions. So in the 1980s. it was really with this money it's how. they took over and there and the. organization it provided was how they.

took over the Olan and Melon and SCAF. foundations they took over the American. enterprise institute and heritage then. they created their own forest of all the. new ones. Washington Institute for. Near's policy. Um I think the committee. on the present danger was previous to. this but um the I guess they recreated. the committee on the present danger. they had uh PANAK and the Center for. Security Policy again that's Frank. Gaffne and his guys and uh whatever a. handful of others there that helped to.

boost that whole and and and created. that echo chamber and of course along. very importantly with again the weekly. standard magazine and Bruce Jackson from. Lockheed is really the exemplar of this. because he came in in the 1990s and he. put up all the money for the committee. on NATO expansion and the committee for. the liberation of Iraq and they focused. mostly on humanitarian excuses for going. in and helping the Iraqi people, but. they were working handin glove with Bill. Crystal as you know, one of the agents. of the Axis of Crystal, as Justin called.

it, the guys lying us into war with the. Weekly Standard leading the charge and. Jonah Goldberg and the uh National. Review right behind him, doing. everything they could to push us into. that war. Michael Leine would write and. Jonah Goldberg would publish over and. over and over again. Michael Ladine. demanding faster please. We have to keep. going to the rest of the terror masters. especially Tyrron as soon as possible as. Jonah Goldberg wrote Baghdad denda est. meaning must be destroyed right like. Carthage must be destroyed and and.

Baghdad dinda est part two where he says. it's the leine doctrine he approvingly. quotes the leine doctrine is that. America every 10 years or so we have to. take some small country and throw them. up against the wall just to show the. world that we mean business. That's conservatism in the hands of. these essentially bastard children of. Leon Trosky, the founder of the Red. Army, right? And and Justin, when you read. when you get into Justin Roando and you.

read Trosky Strauss and the neocons and. all this, you can see where he's talking. about there were art there were. arguments in the pages of the National. Review about Trosky and his legacy from. some of these neocons at that time. And. Justin talks about like how baffled must. the readership of the National Review be. right now that these are your leaders. They're trites. This is who controls the. Republican part party and American. foreign policy. The the world won't be.

safe till the revolution is complete. And by the way, we got to start with all. Israel's enemies first. It's nuts. So. underpinning this kind of ever growing. bureaucracy that's connected to the. military-industrial complex is this kind. of collectivism thinking. >> and money you know market so much money. and you know as I show we'll talk about. this more in the cold war section when. we get to it later but. >> it was a real crisis at the end of the. cold war for the military-industrial. complex and they were open about it. >> like what's going to happen to us now he.

tried to get in to administering welfare. payments and stuff they're like They're. they are not a free market operation. They're a government-connected regime. Are. >> they trying to pivot, you're saying? >> Yeah. They're trying to figure out, yeah, what are we going to do in the. world, right? And then but the idea is. clear that look, if we control the think. tanks and the think tanks decide the. policy, then that we can decide what. kind of weapons we need to develop to. have for sale. So, are we building. jungle gear or are we building desert.

gear? What kind of tanks? What kind of. helicopters? If we set the policy, then. we get to save money by developing the. by making good guesses about what kind. of weapons the Pentagon is going to need. cuz we're the ones deciding. It's so I. just remembered a great footnote for. this. You guys will love it. Lockheed. stock and two smoking barrels by Richard. Cummings. And it's at my site again. scottton.org/bearuse. And you can also find it at corpatch as. well. It was originally written for.

playboy.com. And I interviewed the guy. that was one of the first interviews I. did when I started the show full-time in. January of 2007. And he says, "Guess. what? All those neocons who were such. lacunics and who were ping around with. Netanyahu and talking about oil. pipelines to Hifa, they were all on. Lockheed's payroll. The only one who. wasn't was Hadley. But Hadley worked for. a law firm that had represented them. But the rest of them had had or not all. the rest of them many of and I don't.

just mean the think tank guys but like. the guys in the W. Bush administration. had some direct connection to Lockheed. including Dick Cheny's wife sat on the. board of directors. Not that he's a. neoconservative you understand but c can. you actually speak to that? I'm sorry to. zoom out again on human nature. >> No you should. >> Do do you think. so? I I should actually mention I don't. know much about Lockheed but to the. degree I've interacted with folks that. are locked or engineers and it's it uh. there's some incredible engineering.

that's going on there. >> Sure. >> And I wonder like do they all believe. in what they're doing? They have a. narrower problem set that they're. solving. It's just no different than a soldier. I. mean if you ask them I know what they'll. tell you. That ain't my job. My job is. making sure this gizmo works. >> But does anyone at any place in Lockheed. think like it is their job to think. about the big picture ethics of all of. this?

>> Yes. But their customer is the US. government. And the US government is a. democracy that represents the will of. the consensus of the majority adult. population of this great free land. And. so. >> always outsourcing their ethics. >> Yes. And listen, I got to tell you, man, this is so important. I'm so glad that. you mentioned this because you do have. in fact like direct quotes from for. example Rathon is one coming straight to. mind where they say listen I mean these. policies are decided by the government. our job is to make sure that they have.

what they need and that's to be decided. by other people right but then no Rathon. will directly intervene in policy to. make sure that the policy is what they. want for example Barack Obama started a. genocidal war against the people of. Yemen in 2015, which Donald Trump. continued. I'm jumping way ahead in our. narrative here, but the House and only. because of peace activists. There's no. Houthy lobby in America, believe me. It. was only Quakers and hippies and. libertarians said, "Please stop this.".

And got Congress to pass a war powers. resolution twice to try to force Trump. to end the war. They passed the wimpy. kind that he's allowed to veto instead. of the other kind that he can't. And so. he vetoed it twice. But then guess what? Pete Navaro, his trade representative, we're talking Trump one term here. Pete. Navaro, his trade representative, told the New York Times that the reason. that they kept the war going and vetoed. and and refused to end the war was to. pay Rathon because Rathon wanted the.

Yemen war because it was making them a. bunch of money. And the Trump people. since they had done these tariffs that. were frustrating big manufacturing firms. in America, they said we have to find a. way to put talk about collectivism. We. have to find a way to put manufacturing. on welfare. So what we'll do is we'll. commit genocide against the people of. Yemen because that's what Saudi and UAE. want. Not because of anything that has. anything to do with America's national. interest. The Houthies were helping us. kill al Qaeda guys a month before that. Um, but we're going to do this for them.

and because. industry. wants free money because they're mad. that we put these tariffs on China and. disrupted some of their supplies and. whatever. So, they're going to put this. one big company on the dole and that's. going to make somehow all of. manufacturing in America happy. That was. their reasoning for doing it because. Rathon was demanding it. Then Rathon. will turn right around and go, "Hey, listen, Lex, don't come crying to me.". It was the democratically elected people.

of this country who demanded that we. make these wares to provide your. security, pal. I don't know what you. want to say. And they they pretend that. they're not dealing with the devil, but. they are. Somehow they know it. Somewhere they know it. Somewhere this. department knows that that's that. department's job. Like we do hire. lobbyists to to advocate for policies, don't we? Yeah, of course we do. >> But it's very uncomfortable to think. about that. So they. >> You know what gets me, man, is this is.

how the Hbomb lobby works, too. It's no. different. Honeywell makes and Lockheed, they make hydrogen bombs and they will. send a salesman to Capitol Hill talking. about, "Senator, Senator, let me tell. you, I got to get rid of some Hbombs. here. What kind of deal can I cut? What. do I got to do to get this Hbomb in your. driveway by tonight?". They are like uh supply side. You might. have some you probably didn't think it. all the way through, right? But. somewhere in the back of your mind is. this like half articulated fantasy that.

nuclear weapons are a demand side. business in this country where the. military comes to the Congress and says. we need exactly this many and then the. Congress says to industry we need. exactly this many. What do you mean the. industry is trying to push Hbombs. because of their awesome profit margins. and that we run the Hbomb supply. business the same way you would expect. with M4 rifles or combat boots? Yep,

that's exactly right. And that's exactly. what's meant by the military-industrial. complex. So, there's a real strong case. to be made that it's a supply side. War. is a supply side. uh entity in our era. It sure as hell. is, isn't it? It's the era of the phony. wars, man. What do I got to do to put. this war in your driveway today, Lex? I. tell you that they hate Islam. I tell I. the Islams hate your religion. They hate.

your mama. They hate freedom. They did. this. Did I ever tell you about the. Beirut bombing in 1983? What do I got to. do to get you mad enough to do this with. me? Right? That's why it's a constant. bombardment of propaganda. They don't. have a real case to make. They got to. try to scare you and lie to you. >> And that's from their perspective. From. the industry perspective, the. Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Pakistan, Yemen wars are a success. 8 trillion. dollars. It's a self-licking ice cream cone. It's. the military-industrial complex. Hey,

you know what? Don't you criticize it, Lex. It's called now the defense. industrial base. And if you ask the. Democrats, they'll tell you it's the. number one best and most important. reason for the Ukraine war is because. it's a good subsidy for our in our. defense industrial base. They ran out of. arguments and they settled on that and. they did not know how absolutely demonic. they sounded that that's why we want to. have a war is just literally like in. your crazy conspiracy theory. You're.

crazy when you say it and you call it. the MIC, but now it's the Defense. Industrial Base and it's awesome. It's. spectacular and you better get on board. for it. It's the best reason to have. these wars. In fact, and we're not. embarrassed to tell you. You can go read. it in Politico. I don't know what else. to say. This is straight out of the. Democrats mouths on the last war in the. last presidential term there. How do the. American people fight this? Well, the. first thing would be to get used to the.

idea that they're lying to you next. time, too, right? They've done nothing. but take advantage this whole time. There's no reason to give your. government the benefit of the doubt that. that they care what's true or that they. want you to understand the truth. That's. not what they're about. They're trying. to get you I mean, just think about how. they operate always. They're trying to. get you upset so that then you'll let. them do something, right? like I'm. detecting a pattern here. And it doesn't. mean that everything is a false flag or.

anything like that, but it's just they. do nothing but create crises and then. exploit them. They It's a monopoly on. security services. So when George W. Bush is on the job for 8 months before. September 11th, his approval rating goes. up to 90%. >> Yeah. >> Because we can't fire the national. government and replace it with another. one. We're not having another election. for another 3 years. And so this is the. security force we got. And so we better. support it because what? We're trying to.

send a signal to the world that you. better know that we're all one for all. and you better not mess with us or. whatever. But what are we really doing? We're telling George Bush that he has a. mandate to do anything he thinks he can. get away with. And that we do nothing. but support him after the greatest. failure of any president in all of. American history. For that to be allowed. to happen on his watch. when we all. know, of course, that they knew it was. coming and that at least parts of the. CIA were warning and trying desperately. to get the White House to pay attention. to the fact that this attack was coming.

and that Bush refused to pay attention, I think, because he didn't want to be. distracted with going after Osama bin. Laden in Afghanistan when he was trying. to go to Iraq. And which is another. important point point to bring up back. to our the debate with Duboitz there. where oh the Jews this the Jews that and. the neoconservatives and whatever. Well. to be perfectly clear as everyone knows. George W. Bush is a Methodist, right? He's the son of Episcopalian wasps from. Connecticut. And Dick Cheney is some.

kind of redneck from Mountain Wyoming. And I mean that in a in a complimentary. way. Yeah. No, I I I appreciate. working-class folk. I've done plenty of. that kind of work myself. Um, but he. like climbed electric poles and stuff. like that. He's uh from out west and as. a cowboy and a conservative and a. right-winger and a nationalist and a. tough guy. That's his problem. Donald. Rumsfeld was previously the secretary of. defense and had his own plans for there.

was this whole debate back during that. era of the transformation of the. military. Everybody knows now that the. Soviet Union's gone and it's the whole. new order, what order is it and what. should the military look like? What sort. of weapon system should we focus on? This and that. And Romsfeld had his own. ideas. Like generically speaking, he wanted to. stick it to big army and give their. money to the air force and the special. operations forces instead. again the. Lockheed promo video where what we do is. we send in special operations forces and.

air power to whoop anybody in a few. weeks and then move on to the next one. We don't we want to stay light and fast. and not get bogged down. That was one of. their excuses for letting Bin Laden go. Well, we didn't want to get bogged down. Oh, what? Killing Bin Lad and Zawahi, the two most important guys that you. could possibly target in the thing who. were both there. You know, come on. But. that was part of their excuse. Light and. fast, keep it going. W. Bush, I think, wanted to prove he was tougher than his. father. In a sense, probably wanted to. avenge his father and from the fake.

assassination plot, but also the. humiliation, again, Bill Hicks was so. wise about this that the humiliation of. HW Bush being voted out of office while. Saddam Hussein was still in the chair. And he he says they had to wait a couple. of days for Saddam Hussein to quit gut. laughing to get his quote. And then he. goes, "We have nothing against America. We just want to see George Bush beheaded. and his head kicked down the road like a. soccer ball. And then Bill goes, "Wow, me and Saddam Hussein, we're like this.

Who would have thought it?". >> So some of it is personal, too, right? >> And in fact, Crystal said, "I remember. seeing Crystal on TV." Say, "Well, of". and see, wait, wait, before Crystal, I. said this to my math teacher in 11th. grade. >> Were you Scott Horton? >> Yes. >> To your math teacher? in in 1994. when the day that they announced or the. next day after they announced that W. Bush was going to also run for governor. just like his brother Jeb is running for. governor in Florida. I said to my math.

teacher, "Oh, you see what they're. doing?". I was 17. I said, "You see what they're. doing? They're making sure that one or. the other at least of these guys will be. a secondterm governor in the year 2000. then they can run for president and go. back to Iraq. Which means the Democrats. are going to I mean which means the. Republicans are going to run a weakling. in 96 and throw the election for Bill. and let him win again so that they can. run a fresh Bush in 2000. Nailed it,

dude. And why? Because of the. humiliation. That was my high school. thinking at the time. Because of the. humiliation that Saddam's still there, but Bush is gone. Bush lost after only. one term. And then so that's got to be. avenged. And that's clearly what they're. doing here. And then Bill Crystal said. the same thing. Now Bill Crystal is. bullying W. Bush, right? Bill Crystal. ain't me. He's him up there. And he's. saying, "Well, I just can't imagine that. W. Bush would risk being unelected after.

only one term with Saddam Hussein still. in charge over there. So I think that. it's just an obvious matter of course. that he will have to invade Iraq in his. first term. and I encourage that and. think it's great and he should. And I. saw Crystal say that probably during the. campaign before he was even elected. president somewhere around there. And. again, I wasn't quite sure who Crystal. was and I surely didn't know who his. father was in the neoonservative. movement yet, but I knew that this is. the guy from the Weekly Standard that's. always on about Saddam Hussein. And so.

that was the way that he was trying to. frame it to W. Bush himself that of. course you can't take the risk of. running for reelection in '04 with. Saddam Hussein still sitting there. What. if you lost just like your dad? Your. family could never live that down. Saddam still in the chair after two. Bushes got unelected after only one. term. Perish the thought. That makes me. realize that when you're in the seat of.

the president, it takes real courage to. basically. resist the military-industrial complex. And W Bush had no courage or insight or. depth or humanity. >> And so there's something about our. political system that doesn't make it. easy for truly courageous singular. figures to win the presidency, right? >> And you'd probably be terrified of them. if they did. You know what I mean? because you got people like that or. >> they're going to use that courage. Again, this is sort of the irony of the. neoconservatives is they say, you know,

Henry Kissinger is a monster. His amoral. foreign policy that says, well, if the. Indonesians feel like killing all the. tea, I guess they have to or whatever. that not like us, we're a moralitybased. foreign policy. That's why we have to. invade Iraq because Saddam Hussein is so. immoral and we have to go and bring. light and goodness to the world by doing. the right thing by starting another war. And so that's right. Those are your two. choices. You have amoral and immoral in.

the name of morality you know and using. that excuse. And as they would always. put it the Straussians cuz he was one of. the former Troskites that then a lot of. these guys studied under. and he would. say, "Oh, no. We're all philosopher. kings." See, and unlike Lockian or. Jeffersonian type American principles, our principles are that elites, you. know, like David Wormser and Richard. Pearl who are so smart that uh only they.

can understand the real truth and the. subtext of the truth. and everybody else. is some idiot who has to be lied to with. noble lies by their philosopher kings. because they won't do the right thing. for the right reasons. they have to be. told false reasons to make them do the. right thing and all these things and. they got to justify all their lies by. wrapping it up in all those. justifications that they know what. they're doing when of course these. people are just clowns dude there's no. different and and I know look at the. time I was driving a cabin this town on. this up and down this street okay and.

the average idiot around here knew. better than all of this right and it. wasn't because they had special. knowledge but they just knew you don't. start a war knows what could happen you. have no idea dude how many Just regular. people told me I don't think Saddam. Hussein is friends with Osama bin Laden, you know. >> Yeah. There's a deep wisdom in that. common sense. >> Of course. >> And that's what makes America great is. for the longest time the people had. power. >> Yep. >> And so to the degree that the people.

have power and that wisdom can speak. through its representatives, then then. we'll be all right. But the more and. more the bureaucracy grows, the more the. military-industrial complex gains power, then that common sense wisdom of the. people is silenced. >> Mhm. Well, and I like telling this. story, too. So, I'll go ahead and rattle. on the guy to YouTube, too. I had a guy. in my cab. >> Mhm. >> Who was like a Mr. Fancy Pants man about. town. I dropped him off at some very. swanky bachelor pad apartments off of. South Mopac there. >> And he was a real nice guy. And we had a. long conversation because I wouldn't let.

the poor so go. >> And I'm beating him over the head. And. I'm telling them, damn it, I swear to. God that this is true. Okay? George W. Bush, Connie Zice, Coen Powell, George. Tennant, none of them have said that. Saddam did 9/11. Now, Dick Cheney did, but he's a damn liar. But there's a real. important reason why Bush and Powell are. not saying that. Okay? They're perfectly. happy to leave you with that impression. that that must be what they were trying. to imply and that's what you thought you.

heard them say, but you didn't. and you. promise me you go inside and you Google, you look hard, you will not find them. directly saying that. And he says to me, "Ah, but come on, man. I mean, if Saddam. Hussein didn't do 9/11, then why are we. attacking him then, right?" Which is a. good question. But to him, the answer. was built into the thing that actually. the cab driver couldn't possibly be. right. Because the people in Washington. would not lead me to believe that this.

has anything at all to do with avenging. that innocent dead Americans slaughtered. on September 11th, airplanes full of. little kids on their way on vacation. That what do you mean this has nothing. to do with that? What's more likely? your cab driver knows better or that no, you are right to disbelieve and believe. in authority that swears that they're. doing this to protect you from the enemy. that attacked you. And so that's the. kind of cognitive dissonance that is. always baked into these kinds of things. It's the same thing with Israel now.

Well, if this is the most barbarian. society on the planet, how come we're. their best friends? Yeah, again, a very. good question, but it's not answered by. they must not be. they must be really. great otherwise we wouldn't be which is. what the cognitive dissonance would try. to have you explain to yourself I guess. >> yeah by the way everyday people like. just like we said often have a deep. wisdom that the government lacks and. more than almost any other career I. think cab drivers really have that.

wisdom I don't know what it is about cab. drivers but they really get it because. they get to talk to a lot of people get. to think through a lot of it you get to. like think through it. >> hey I think all the time about I I mean, there's a lot of cabar I don't remember, but the there are a few that I do where. it was I got something wrong and the guy. goes, "No, no, no. It's not like that. It's like this and he was right and I. was wrong and I ah, you know, I really. picked up something there." You know. what I mean? Like one of the good I said. I was kind of a new world order cook. back then. And and one of the good ones. I I still remember where I was on Mopac.

where the guy said to me that like. listen man, it ain't conspiracy. It's. just politics, okay? It's the game over. who controls the power. You don't need. secret societies. You just need oak. tables, man. It's this is business and. that's how it goes. And and if you take. that click with you. >> even Yeah. And even the most. conspiratorial type thing, if you just. leave out the secret society crap and. just focus on Lockheed and the Israel. lobby and the Republican party and oil. interests and whatever where all these. things come together, it's all very.

clear. You know what I mean? And you. don't have to be a Chskyite leftist to. see it that way at all. Like I'm a. libertarian and we're pure free market. types, which means we find it morally. criminal for any company to get a. government contract for anything, right? Like we want no public private. partnerships of any kind. When we say. privatization, we don't mean government. contracts. We mean privatization. Get. government out of it and let free people. figure it out. Any corporation on.

welfare deserves to be destroyed to a. libertarian. though it's you don't have. to like identify somehow as like well. only an anarcho syndicicalist from in. the chskyite mold would think that we. have this problem with these crony. corporations. No indeed we do. And in. fact again not again but go back who. coined the term military-industrial. complex. This is Dwight David. Eisenhower, the five-star Army general. who was the commander of all United. Nations forces in Europe in World War II. and then came home and was the two-term.

Republican president of the United. States of America, who is the one who. did the coup in 53 in Iran, who's the. one who built as many nuclear missiles. as he possibly could. But why? To try to. hold the army at bay. Eisenhower said, "God help the next president of this. country who doesn't have the experience. with the army that I do to try to keep. these men from their demands where they. were constantly demanding more. divisions, more divisions, more. divisions." And he said, "No, I'm going. to build more missiles instead. You guys.

get away from me." And only he had the. power to do it at the time. I'm not. taking a stance on this, but widely. believed that these same forces blew the. head off of his successor for getting in. their way. Um, you know, which is at. least possible if not likely, right? That that was what happened in Dallas. >> by by these force and we don't really. know the full. >> meaning the military and the. intelligence agencies, right? Is was the. idea. >> It's like a network of people that work.

together. >> Yeah. the black access program, special. access program in the military goes. Fletcher Prrowy and them uh their. argument about the thing which whatever. Um whether that's true or not, it's. believable enough because and and what. Eisenhower said that on his last day in. office. Sorry, Charlie. I did the best I. could. Maybe this is half my fault. Good. luck to you. And then quit and was out. the door. And then but we have we ever. had a major reckoning since then where. what oh after Vietnam and Nixon was.

impeached that was when we destroyed the. military-industrial complex. No right. that never happened after the end of the. cold war. Is that what happened? No. We. went to Bosnia and then we went to Iraq. We went to Bosnia and stay in the Middle. East and expand wherever we can. >> Easinau speeches are haunting. >> Yeah. There's the other one is the cross. of iron speech where he calculates the. cost of battleships compared to schools. and grocery stores and things. It's not. all public good or you know so-called. public goods like public schools but he. talks about like private investment and. the comparisons that every bit of money.

that we spend on this is wealth that. comes from the American people that the. government then denies to us takes from. us and destroys like if you ever read. 1984 in the part. >> I read it many times of course. >> in there's part of the book where. Winston Smith is um being brought under. the wing of his future torturer O'Brien. and O'Brien gives him the manual for how. we do it, right? And he holds up in his. bedroom and reads the book of How We Do. It. And it says in there that listen, we.

keep them in a permanent state of war at. all times to keep them on edge, to keep. them insecure, to take any excess wealth. that the people would otherwise spend. improving their own lives. And we sink. it into the ocean in the form of the. floating fortress. Or we blast it off. into space in the form of these missiles. and rockets that we're building so that. the people can't have it. so that we. cannot build up our society to protect. our own needs and interests. Now, of. course, anyone leaning left listening to. this would prefer that the government.

spend this money on public school and. healthcare and infrastructure. Anybody. right leaning listening to this says. that's my money. Stop printing money and. inflating the money supply. Stop taxing. me. Leave me alone. Me and my buddies. will invest in private businesses and we. will produce the wealth society needs. Fine. What we all have to agree is that. this has to all come to an end where we. let them take trillions and trillions of. our dollars. What they can't tax, they. borrow. And what they can't borrow, they. inflate. And with the inflation, this is.

the absolute crisis of confidence. Again, Bin Laden invited our government. to do this quote self-inflicted wound, meaning really our government wounding. all of us. And this is the absolute. crisis of our era is price inflation. It's why people can't pay the rent. It's. why they can't afford to feed their. family. It's why they're forced to send. their children to government school like. a German or a Russian. It's why they are. are broke. It's why young men and women. can't start families and buy homes. It's.

because of price inflation which is the. result of monetary expansion. the. expansion especially of bank credit. although in our very current era because. of Donald Trump and Joe Biden's massive. stimulus bills that they signed during. co and you can trace that back to wars. >> and it's almost entirely like well big. government overall relies on. inflationary money but then yes this is. a massive part of our budget is the uh. annual you know militarism for the.

global empire and and so like to turn it. around Jonah Goldberg from the National. Review, Mr. Leine Doctrine. He says, "Well, we can't have a gold standard cuz. what if there's a war, right?" But then. that's Ron Paul's point. That's why we. should have a gold standard. So Jonah. Goldberg can't have a war, right? Because they have to print the money. If. they had to raise your taxes to go stop. Tojo, maybe even then they had to print. money and and and borrow money. But. people sure as hell took Nazi Germany.

and Imperial Japan seriously enough to. fight and they still had to conscript. millions of people to do it. But. whatever, at least you got a credible. threat there. But you're going to tell. the American people, "Hey, we're going. to have to raise everybody's income tax. in every bracket by 6% so that we can. launch an aggressive war against Iraq so. that Israel can save a nickel a barrel. hopefully if they can get their silly. pipeline they want built." American. people say hell no. when they print the. money, remember this, George Bush sent. people, anyone who paid income taxes, got a refund check of an extra three or.

$400, depending on your bracket, in 2003. and 4. This was meant to look like, well, I infer this, it was meant to look. like your dividend. It was meant to fool. you into thinking that the Iraq war is. profitable, that America is making money. off of this. like in the cliche that you. would hear from people in the. neighborhood. Well, war is good for the. economy and look, we're all directly. benefiting from this. Apparently, we all. get an extra three or $400. But, of.

course, they just printed that money. And all that inflation during the W. Bush years is what led to the giant. housing bubble and the crash of08 and. the absolute decimation that came after. that. And then what Obama do? Came and. printed even more money, built up an. even bigger bubble to try to deal with. that. Then of course the COVID lockdowns. essentially played the role of high. interest rates and just crushing the. economy and forcing a massive recession. on people. But then what did they do? They didn't just have the Fed ex like. lower interest rates and lower reserve. ratios so that they could expand money.

even more. They literally just mailed. everybody checks of brand new money from. the Treasury. All brand new money. And. by some measures they created twothirds. of all US dollars that were ever created. were created since 2020. And so that's. Trump's fault. and Biden's fault for. doing those giant uh monetary expansion. acts and that's what has led to the. giant inflationary crisis today is this. absolutely incompetent managers of our. economy and this is the thing where if. people aren't libertarians at all if.

people lean any degree left or right. from me and from Austrian school. libertarian things is totally fine. disagree with me on whatever you want. warfare welfare anything but it's just. true man it's just true the Austrians. are correct about the cause of the. business cycle, the boom and bust. Now, of course, if the frost wipes out all. the oranges, then that's going to cause. disruptions in that one market or. whatever. But what caused what Ludig Bis.

called the cluster of errors where all. these businessmen are making all these. bad bets all at the same time that then. leads to these terrible crashes and. resets and corrections. And the answer. is it's inflationary money and. artificially low interest rates. Because. what it does is it's manipulating the. price of money, artificially valuing. money with government control and. leading producers to follow false price. signals and to mistakenly believe that.

there are more resources available in. the economy for use than there really. are. If you had free market interest. rates, then the more capital you use to. invest, the more it costs to borrow more. capital, right? And when savings are low. and capital is low to invest in new. things, then interest rates would. naturally go up. But when the Federal. Reserve Bank holds interest rates low, then that doesn't happen. And so you. have especially in the higher order.

goods like mining and quaries and. machine tools and the kinds of things. that are then used to sell the other. business to businesses to make other. things and these kind of things. They. make long-term farmers or other ones. They make long-term loans at. artificially low interest rates that. then they end up getting screwed later. because they're not able to produce to. keep up when the crash comes. Now, let's. say you own a quarry and you're Austrian. school guy and you see what's going on. here. Well, Allan Greenspan's just.

printing a bunch of money and so all my. competitors are hiring new workforces. and they're they're buying new machine. tools and they're getting way ahead of. me in their productive capacity, but I. know that they're screwed cuz they're. going deep into debt for all this stuff. and the music's going to stop. However, if I don't if you the core owner, if you. don't play the same game, >> yeah, you're also. >> you're going to lose sooner than them. You're going to lose before they have a. chance to get screwed. So, even if you. know better, you still have to expand.

beyond what you really know that you do. So, like one example that Austrians like. to use, I think, is like if the circus. comes to town for a month or whatever. and this the local Dairy Queen is really. busy and then the guy builds a giant. extension onto the thing that like this. is how it's going to be now, but no, this is just temporary. This is a boom. followed by a bus, right? Well, so this. is the the artificial value of those. customers in that time induced by the. traveling circus. But in our case, we're.

talking about money artificially. inflating the value of certain firms and. certain banks, investments and these. kind of things. This is what leads to. the cluster of errors that leads to the. collapses. And people can read the of. course the brilliant Lisa's in his. theory of money and credit from 100. years ago. Then of course there's Murray. Rothbart, what has government done to. our money and the case against the Fed. And then there's all of the brilliant. guys of the Austrian school, especially. Robert Murphy and Tom Woods and all the.

guys at the Lit Biscus Institute and. imperialism and militarism are at the. heart of this. David Stockman, Ronald. Reagan's former um uh budget adviser. calls this the great deformation. And he. says all these little bubbles like 87. and 92 and 99 and '08, these are the. little bubbles on top of the big bubble. of America's overall inflationary. monetary policy since the end of the. Second World War in order to make the. militarism seem artificially cheap to. make it seem more imagine how deceived.

people would have to be to think that. war is good for the economy because they. notice the Russian spending and the. immediate stimulative effect when this. is the difference between the scene and. the unseen. Where's all that wealth. coming from? And now where's it going? It's going to make tools of death and. destruction, net losses in property. values all the way around in, you know, and a lot of times goods that can never. be reused again. The plane can fly. again, but the bombshirt can't. F-35s. fall out of the sky all the time in the.

headlines again today. Um, and so this. is all a net loss. um, in terms of all of this capacity. being directed into militarism and then. uh, going away. But people get fooled. into thinking that this is what's good. and this is what's necessary. And of. course, Locky does things and the rest. of them too, Boeing and the rest. They. have explicit um gerrymandering type. policies where they will have one small. part of every weapon system made in as. many factories as possible all across.

the country so that if Congress ever. wants to roll back anything, they will. have an army of lobbyists to threaten. them that we're talking about 600 jobs. in your district. Congressman, is that. what you're willing to do? And then they. all just snap right into line. You know, again with they say, "Hey, we're just. supplying the weapons that the Congress. demands." No, they're not. They're. rigging the whole game. So, we have no. choice but to give into them. essentially. If I can just take an. aside, you mentioned you used to be a.

cab driver. I would love to understand the story of. somebody that was a cab driver that. eventually became one of the most. prolific libertarians, anti-war. intellects of the modern era. Who are you? >> I'm just talking. >> I'm a I mean, look at this. >> Look at this. Right. >> The number of citations here breaks. >> 7,000. >> 7,000. Look, I mean, how. and why were you driving a cab? And what.

how did you come to be this this person? >> Well, I mean, I'm a skateboarder type. and I'm just anti-government type. Like. I say, I I learned about Ronald Reagan. being a dope pusher when I was a child. Bill Clinton burned the branch of. Indians to death in front of my eyes and. called it a suicide when I was 16. Covered up the Oklahoma bombing, blamed. it on one guy two years later, which. there's still they're no longer getting. away with that. There's a brand new book. out called Blowback and I haven't read. it yet, but I know the fact checker and. I know that it's right that McVey had.

friends. They were undercover FBI. informants. At least two of them, Roger. Moore and Andre Strawmeer were agent. provocators and they covered it up. because it was their own guys who did. it. I'm not saying the government did it. on purpose, but I'm saying the FBI was. essentially a sting that they were meant. to stop it and they didn't stop it. And. they covered that up and they got the. whole media to go along with that. And. then, you know, I was a big fan of like, see, it's kind of funny, but I'm kind of. angry at them, so I'll put them on blast.

anyway. I don't care. When I was young, I read Reason magazine, and I thought, I. hate these guys. That's what a. libertarian is. That they think their. job is debunking Gulf War illness. They. think their job is debunking the number. of Iraqis starving to death under Bill. Clinton's sanctions. and and they don't give a damn about the. branch dividians. They don't give a damn. about any of this, right? I don't know. what they're good for. Lower taxes and. maybe guns. Not that they're doing.

anything important about it. And so I. shied away from the libertarian movement. for a long time because that's what I. thought the libertarian movement was. And I would rather pile around with a. bunch of right-wing militia guys because. at least they care about the branch. dividians. There's in in Austin at that. time there's kind of a thriving what. they call the patriot movement which is. like the civilian side of the militia. movement basically and it's all like. yeah right-wing conspiracy guys who are. right about everything then about who. started that fire in Waco about who. helped blow up Oklahoma City about the.

sanctions in Iraq killing kids about the. Gulf War illness that they were covering. up illnesses I should say that they were. covering up and saying oh drink a beer. and chin up and don't be a wimp and all. this these guys were dying of cancers. and other diseases that they got from. what the Pentagon did to them and. exposed them to in Iraq War I one. And. so, you know, the neo the the the. conspiracy cooks were batting a hundred, batting a thousand, whatever. I'm not a. baseball guy. I'm a skateboarder. They're batting a thousand. Yeah.

>> You know, during that era, they're. they're really right about a lot of. things and I would have rather hung. around them even though I wasn't. culturally right-wing like them. But. William Norman Grigg at the New American. Magazine was really a great and of. course Ron Paul came back to Congress in. 97. Was Ron Paul the the person that. sort of convinced you that. libertarianism could be a powerful. movement? >> Yes. Ron Paul convinced me of a lot of. things, man. He's he's really been a. northstar to me this whole time. Ever. since then, I was so excited from the. I'll tell you the first time I ever saw. Ron Paul was 10 years before everybody.

else got their big Giuliani moment when. Ron Whoop Rudy Giuliani in that debate. in March, pardon me, May of 2007 where. they fought over the motivation of Osama. bin Laden to attack us on 911. And Ron. said, "It's cuz we were bombing Iraq. from bases in Saudi for 10 years.". Everybody knows that. And Giuliani. flipped his lid. And Ron was of course. heroic, right? But my Giuliani moment. was a decade before I saw Ron in the. middle of the night on C-SPAM. Dr. Paul on C-SPAN. The middle of the. night speaking to an empty Congress.

uh except whoever was filling in in the. speaker chair. Mr. Speaker, I have here. in my hands reports from the British. press today about how George Bush was. selling chemical weapons to Saddam. Hussein leading right up to the invasion. of Kuwait. What's up with that? And now. and we still have all these sanctions. and doing all these things and we're so. responsible for this guy's evil in the. first place after we had backed him all. that time and all these things and this. is not wise foreign policy, Mr. Speaker. We ought to come home. And I'm like, "Wow, that any congressman would say.

anything that honest on the record. inside the Capitol building like that, I. couldn't believe it." And I looked at. the bottom of the screen, it says Ron. Paul, R Texas. And I'm like, "No way.". Cuz you know, Bush Senior himself is. nominally from here, right? He's from. Connecticut really, but he made his. fortune here in oil and lived here for a. very long time and, you know, has raised. his family in West Texas for much of the. time and that kind of thing. So, he's an. extremely important guy in Texas. politics. So, for this congressman to.

dare to say that, he's essentially. accusing Bush of treason. Um, okay. This. is I'm interested in this guy. And then. I'm reading the New American magazine, which is the John Burchers magazine. They have a very bad rap as racist and. stuff, which is totally not true. They're conspiratorial, and I don't. agree with them on everything, and. they're more conservative than me, but. they're good people. They're George. Washington's Constitution guys and and. mostly Protestant and Catholic. Christians and American patriotic folk. They're good people. And the editor of.

their magazine at that time was the. great William Norman Grigg. And he would. run Ron Paul stuff constantly. He would. cover Ron. Um, and then I used to be a. pirate radio guy. So I had I would call. his weekly update. I don't know if he. still does this. It was 888 3221414. And. then I would just play the Ron Paul. weekly update and put that out over the. air. And it was always just killer. stuff, dude. Financial, you know, monetary policy and boom and bust and. and the evils of war. I would drive. around in my cab and I would have.

printed out Ron Paul speeches. And there. was one that was called a republic if. you can keep it. And then which is the. famous Benjamin Franklin quote to the. Baker lady about what do we have a. monarchy or a republic? A republic if. you can keep it. And then the sequel was. called I'm sorry Mr. Franklin, we are. all Democrats now. And it was just so. good. I And I would give this to people. in the cab. Hey, did you know there's. one good congressman? One. And he's not. good. He's better than Thomas Jefferson. Read this and read this and read this.

And this is the light and the way. And. the thing is is all I'm selling you is a. peaceful foreign policy. I'm not saying. like or well and and freedom overall as. this is what Ron Paul emphasized. If if. you if he's asking for your trust or. your faith in anything, it's just that. you trust in freedom that it does work. It's why we have all this stuff is. because of liberty in the first place. And so you can count on that, you know, but otherwise he's not selling you. anything. He delivered like a third of.

the population of his district when he. was a baby doctor, right? He's not going. anywhere. He didn't have he wasn't. soliciting donations. He wasn't asking. you to join his cult or his sect of. Protestant Christianity. He was just. saying, "We don't have to do this stuff. We don't have to believe in this. They. say these things, but gez, that doesn't. seem right cuz what about this thing?". >> And he's just so wise and so good. And. and his his aids, by the way, his his. right-hand men all that time were also. really great guys, too. Especially Jeff. Dy, Danny McAdams, has been his.

right-hand man and his great, you know, adviser this whole time. and another. just really good human being. >> Yeah. Well, he is and and he's a doctor, not a lawyer. He delivered 4,000 babies. And you know, I met his sister-in-law. who married his older brother Wayne. And. and she says to me, "Yeah, well, when. you guys say that Ron Paul delivered. 4,000 babies, well, I did, too, cuz I'm. his head nurse and I delivered every one. of myself too along with him and all of. that thing." So, that's where he comes. from, man. He's a decent, sweet old. country doctor. He's married to his high.

school sweetheart since her sweet 16. party. Okay. No scandals, not a hint of. it. He's got, I don't know, 150. grandchildren or whatever he is. It's. the American dream. It's perfect, dude. And nobody's got nothing on him. Yeah. >> Right. He's just He's the best. >> I wish we lived in a country where a guy. like that can have a chance of being. president. >> Yeah, that's what I'm saying. >> It could have been. Dude, listen. The. Republicans of the United States of. America nominated John McCain and Mitt. Romney instead of him. You explained.

that to me when we got George Washington. himself only without the slaves and. without the bloody hands. The only vet. in the race, but he was a doctor in the. Air Force. The only one. He got up on stage and. quoted Jesus and they booed him. He's the guy that's supposed to be. president. That's I mean, you say George. Washington, one of the greatest. Americans ever. That's the guy. Hey, that's the guy, dude. Could have been.

Hey, and if you doubt me, just go to. anti-war.com/paul and read the last 30. years of everything he's had to say. about everything. What can I tell you, man? >> Uh, but the the aspect, the the rigor, you talked about the motivation, like. what you discovered, like how the hell. did you do this? >> Okay, I I could think of an answer to. that, which is that like unlike all your. your Harvard professors and all of this. stuff, like the burden of proof is. really on me, right? like it's because. I'm just a skater cab driver from Austin. who didn't go to your fancy pants.

college. I don't have there's no reason. that you're supposed to defer to me. And. that book is about how everybody's wrong. except me. >> So, if I'm going to tell you that, then. I better be able to really demonstrate. it. And I want you to go, "Oh, yeah. Well, but what about that coup in. Montenegro in 2016?" Well, turn the. page. I got a whole section on that. I. didn't leave out nothing. And I wrote it. in in that kind of defensive posture. People are going to not like this. They're going to say I don't know what. I'm talking about. Now, when I wrote. Enough already, the war was over. Enough.

already came out in January 21 and I was. in a race to get it done cuz Joe Biden's. going to be inaugurated on on January 20. and the era is over. The Bush Obama era. capstone with Trump won is just at an. end on Jan and after all the true. beginning of the decade is January 21, right? And so I knew that this book has. to come out now, but this is really. about the terror wars that are over.

mostly. Not that we're completely done. in the Middle East, you understand? But. like. that's a bit after the fact. This is. written, Provoked is written in the. middle of the war. >> Yeah. And I'm trying to change people's. mind and really get them not just to. regret the stupid things they believed. in a minute ago, but to change their. mind and get on board and let's see if. we can bring this thing to a more. reasonable conclusion sooner than later. and and get it done. It'd be like if I. wrote enough already in 2005 or six. Um,

and so I knew I wanted it to be as. bulletproof as it just possibly can be. because I don't have argumentation from. authority. I don't have like, oh yeah, I'm from here and I can tell you that. I'm a reporter. I'm a I'm a linguist and. I've read 10,000 Russian newspapers. going back to whatever, whatever. I. don't have any of those things. What I. do have is I've been working for. anti-war.com this whole time. I've done. 6,000 interviews with the best experts. We covered the orange revolution when it. happened. We covered the Maidan. Revolution when it happened and. everything in between and all of these.

things. So, um, just like with the book. about Afghanistan and the book about the. Middle East, I was already ready to. write the book before I started writing. it. I already know the whole story. Obviously, I had to do a lot of research. and fill in a lot of information and. correct myself on things I had wrong or. oversimplified or whatever and learned a. lot while I was writing it, but I. already knew the story overall cuz I've. been working on it for a very long time. What are the main things that Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama, Trump, and Biden. did to cause the new cold war with. Russia and the war in Ukraine? I already.

know those things. I already have the. bullet points. I that book started as a. speech I gave in 2020. >> Um, in fact, it was leap day 2020, Carol. Paul's birthday, um, and the day that. Donald Trump signed the peace deal with. the Taliban to get us out of. Afghanistan, I gave a speech to the. Libertarian Party of King County um, in. Seattle, Washington called the cold the. new cold war with Russia is all. America's fault. And that that's. published at anti-war.com. And then two. years later, I spent I stayed up all. night doubling the length of the speech.

and gave it again. And this is it's a. 4-hour speech I gave in Utah on I think. March the 2nd, 2022, right after the war. started, explaining all the same stuff. And then that became the nucleus of that. book basically. And then it's just a. matter of filling it out. And sorry to. ask a silly detailed question, but this. is a gigantic book. extremely detailed, extremely wellsighted. What's your. writing process like? What how do you go. through it? So, you it started a speech.

and now you have this this manifesto, this tome. >> Yeah. Well, as you can see, the chapters. are just HW Bush, Clinton, W. Bush, Obama, and and you know, when you if you. ever get the chance to read the thing, you'll see that it this is really just a. giant collection of citations. I don't. do too much writing in the book. Um much. unlike Justin Romano. I'm really not. that smart and have a lot to say. I'm a. great on names and dates and I hold a. grudge real well, but Justin could write.

a thousand words just of like wisdom and. understanding and opinions about things. that I'm I'm just not really like that. So, this book in a way is 7,000 note. cards arranged by your maestro here to. be hopefully to tell the story in a way. that everybody can understand. And you. know, whatever. There's pros in there. I'm I'm writing to you, but I'm I'm. mostly I'm marshalling evidence is the. point of the whole thing that this is.

what these guys did. Here's what the war. party says. And I don't straw man my. arguments. I link when I say 7,000. citations. A third of them are to the. bad guys. And this is their point of. view. And I'm telling you, here's what. they admit that they're lying. You know, that's basically how it's written. And I. cite very little Ron Paul and very. little Pab Buchanan in there because as. much as I rever them, I don't need them. I can quote the apparatics in charge. themselves explaining how stupid the. things that they are doing are and then.

show why they did them anyway and all. the consequences and whatever. So I. don't I don't need to site the good. guys. I can site the involved. So. basically going to the primary sources. versus citing the quote unquote experts. >> Yeah. and and just spending a hell of a. lot of time going through the archives. And I am an obsessive typer. Like I. there are absolutely times where I spent. four days hunting one footnote that I. know exists and I want to make this. claim and I can't make it without my. citation. I'm going to find this thing.

and I have gone to the ends of the earth. in some cases for these especially like. about the Balkan Wars and stuff. Some of. those articles are so hard to hunt down. But then, you know, I'm reading all. these books and then all those books got. all their own citations. And a lot of, you know, I learned this a long time. ago, but this was reinforced in this. book. Um, and this is no slam against. them. It's just against everybody is a. lot of times the people that I agree. with are wrong. And they will cite. something and then I go and read that. something and it does not say what they.

said it says. And I can see why they. misunderstood it even that they're not. lying and not exaggerating, but that's. not really the the implication there. It's really something different. So, I. double, triple, quadruple check every. goddamn thing I can until I'm like I I'm. terrified of being caught out being. wrong on a fact. And I have um. the book is 477,000 words and I it's if. if it was 6 by9 and if the font was. regular size it would be,200 pages long.

That's how long the book is. Um, and. it's but it's not well, first of all, a. major portion of that is like literally. hundreds and hundreds of pages of that. is footnotes. Although I keep them all. at the bottom of the page where you can. see them. And damn anyone who doesn't do. that. That's exactly how a book like. this should be. Um, but then so a lot of. that space really is citations. But then. also, um, I don't dwell too long on any. one topic. don't think the only two. exceptions to that are in um when we.

talk about the NATO promises against. expansion and the Nazis in Ukraine. because these I believe are the two most. controversial subjects or you know. stances or whatever in the book and so I. go absolutely to the ends of the to beat. the dead horse all the way to death to. prove the absolute fact of the position. that I'm taking there. Um, and then. there's still probably a lot of overkill. on a lot of things, but as far as like. the writing goes, when I I mentioned the.

Montenegro coup of 2016. It's just a. short little thing. It's called the. vaudeville coup and it's kind of funny. and it's a little mysterious and then. the different poisonings by the Russians. or at least alleged ones. I have, you. know, Lit Venenko and the Scripples and. whoever. And I just I was thinking it. from the point of view of my accusers. like, "Oh, yeah. Well, what about this? Well, what about this? Well, what about. that? I bet you left that out." And. like, "No, I didn't, dude. I have it all. in there." And I tried to write it in a. way to satisfy my worst critics as best. as I could. The, as the Declaration of.

Independence says, with a decent respect. to the opinions of mankind that like, so. I should assume that you don't agree. with me and in good faith. And so, how. in the hell am I going to fix that? Like, I'm going to have to make you. accept that I'm not lying to you when I. put these things together. If you if. when you read that you feel like I I'm. trying to get away with something, you're gonna put it down. I said, I. didn't write it for you to put it down. Think I wrote a thousandpage book for. you to put it down. I want you to get.

through all the way to the end going, "God dang, man. I didn't really realize. it was as bad as all of that.". >> So to convince the critics. >> That's that's what it is for as opposed. to enough already, which I really wrote. enough already for my people, my fans to. give to their brother-in-law and their. dad and whoever. It's a little bit after. the fact. As I said, I was in a real. rush to get it done. So, I don't have. the citations. I do have the citations. in fool's error and about Afghanistan. And actually, we're working on now, me. and one of my guys at the institute, uh,

we're working on putting the footnotes. back into enough already and doing like. the ultimate scholar edition with the. overkill on the citations there. But I. actually I had footnotes on most of it. I turned them off and I just raced to. the end cuz I was out of money and I was. out of time. I had to go. And so friends. of mine rationalize it like, well, you. think Bill O'Reilly has footnotes in his. books? You know, get that thing out. there, man. And so I did. And but I did. try to write it in a way where I either. cite my citations in the pros or at. least I wrote it in a way where it's a.

very specific claim. On November the. 9th, they held a meeting and these five. people were there and this is what they. decided. So you can go and Google that. You know what I mean? It's not it's it. should be specific enough that people. can double check me. But but then yeah. So why I'm like this? Um I'm just a Ron. Paul guy and I can't stand being lied to. and and I can't stand all this violence. and I want to live in a free society and. the empire's ruining it and then and. then so why do I write? Why am I like. that meticulous about it all is I don't.

want to be caught being wrong. I'll tell. you one funny story and then we'll stop. One time I lost an argument about Waco. It was these three people in my cab and. the one of them was this real jerk and. the other two were on his side because. it was his friends and I was arguing. with him about everything. But the thing. was he was like the son of a federal cop. and he knew their side of the story like. down pat and he really knew his stuff. And so even though I was right and he. was wrong, he won. And they got out of.

the car going screw you branchian boy. and whatever. And oh man, that never. happened to me again. You know why? >> Cuz I read like six books about Waco. I. already knew more than enough about it. And then I decided that yeah, no, actually no one's going to ever beat me. in an argument about that ever again. >> Really thoroughly articulate the the. evidence for your claims. >> And you're just like me too, dude. When. when you read a 300page book, it tasted. what? Like if you want to read this.

thing, it's not like a chore, but like, oh, I want to read that. You're done in. a day and a half or two. Like it's easy. to do once you set that precedent a few. times. It's pretty easy to read a thing. and jot down some notes and learn. something from it and then teach it to. somebody else and whatever. Well, yeah. Listen, welcome to adulthood or. whatever. That's what we do. So, like. that's all it is. It's just that's my. only job is compiling reasons to resent. these liars and and why to know better. than all their false promises. >> Yeah. But also be able to uh to. articulate it. >> And see, also I'm a talk radio guy, man.

I grew up in the radio of Rush Limbo. I'm driving for a living in the era of. Rush Limbbo and G. Gordon Litty and all. the local guys and I mean the I'll go. ahead and say this on the record too. The local hosts on KOBJ AM in Austin all. suck and always have. All of them since. Raleigh James in 1996 love her. Everybody since then, I mean I don't. know who listens to Kelly Jam at all. How they even stay in business at all. Their hosts suck. the the the content of. their words or the actual raw skill of. how they talk and what they talk and.

like. >> all of it and mostly how stupid and. wrong and horrible they are about. everything, but also just how like. meaningless their dril is, right? You'd. be in the middle of the world's worst. crisis and they're like, "The liberals. are trying to take God out of the pledge. of allegiance." Like, dude, I would. prefer that you just shoot me in the. face to listen to this for the love of. God, please. Anyway, but I I love the. potential there. And in that era before. the internet was what it is today, this. was the real town square where you can. have a host who knows something. You can.

have a guest who knows something. And. you can have callers who know a lot more. than you think they would, dude. And I. remember listening to them talk about. like the Texas Homesteading Act that. said you weren't allowed to take out a. second mortgage on your house and. whatever because it was to protect the. little old ladies. And they were. debating over whether they should have. that law or not. And I remember. thinking, "Wow, all these people know so. much about this topic that I've never. heard of before." And all of these. callers are just so deep on their. knowledge of what they know. And whether. on that issue or so many other things.

The first real time I heard real AM. radio in Austin, I was 16. I was wait, I. might have been I might have been 18. No, no, I would have I was 16. It was It. was Yeah, it was the same year that the. Devidians were killed. I was driving my. first car down 183 and I said, "You. know, I've lived in Austin my whole life. and I've never listened to the AM band. I wonder what it is." And the first. thing I hit was KOBJ AM and it was. Johnny Walker, the great Johnny Walker, the FM. uh rock and roll DJ. >> Yeah.

>> Was subhosting. and his whole thing, he was a great guy, by the way. RIP Johnny Walker. Um but he. goes, "Look, I don't know anything. I'm. literally just hosting this show. The. guest is this guy, a surviving branch. devidian and we're taking your calls. And this hit me like what? There's even. a branch devidian alive and they have a. point of view and you can hear it and. he's live right now and he's talking and. people can call in and they can what?

Because in my world that I lived in what. you know about the branch of Indians is. what you read in the Austin American. Statesman or what you're told by Ted. Cppel and Dan Rather and that's all you. get. Mhm. >> What do you mean? I can interact with. one. >> Yeah. >> And then the callers are brilliant. The. callers know all they're not cooks. They. know exactly what they're talking about. and they'll be like, I'll tell you what. happened was on March the 19th, blah. blah blah. Oh, okay. So, this is why I'm. like this. This is talk radio to me is.

it's like if you believe in the idea of. like any kind of like so-called popular. government, like if we have to settle. for any sort of statism at all, you want. the people to be able to have one big. ass conversation with each other, right? That's why your show is so important. You get hundreds and hundreds and. hundreds of thousands of views and. listens, maybe millions if you include. all the podcasts. And so for a guy like. me, it's like, yeah, it's a chance to. talk to a whole bunch of people, to get. a bunch of people having the same. conversation together instead of.

everybody just all spread out having. their own little separate arguments and. not interacting with each other. So to. me, that was the brilliance of talk. radio. And then where Rush Limbbo and. Gordon Litty were all polished and had. their little programs, the guys on 550. AM in San Antonio, especially Carl. Wigglesworth was my favorite, but him. and all those guys, even Ricky Wear, who. was the John Hyite lunatic, but he was. still such a sweet guy. And their talk. radio, their version of talk radio was. all right, it's Cole Woosworth show,

everybody. We were talking about Bill. Clinton selling cocaine down there with. Dan Lacader and mean Arkansas. And we. got Terry Reed on the phone. Tell us. about your book, Compromise, Clinton. Bush and the CIA, Terry. But everybody's. kicking back. Yeah. Everybody's got this. front porch attitude and they got all. the time in the world. We're here every. day for three hours a day. Ain't no. thing. And we're talking about and and. they're just the nicest guys. Come back. from commercial and go, "It's Carl. We're talking with Terry about the. thing." and no bumper music, no fanfare,

no last name. You just jump jumped in. the middle of a conversation, tune in, figure it out, and it's just beautiful. It's perfect. And then I modeled myself. in the way I do my show on beginning on. Free Radio Austin in '989 and then on. Chaos Radio Austin from 2002 through. 2010. I guess I was on Chaos although it. wasn't Yeah, it was 2010 before they. seized our last transmitter from Chaos, wasn't it? I think it was. So yeah, I. did chaos for like yeah a long time. And. then so that was my whole attitude was.

look, I am a regular guy. I ain't got to. bake that. I didn't go to college. I. dropped out of ACC. >> And my message ain't for elite policy. makers. My message is for my peers. Look. at what they're doing. That's it. And. and this is why the, you know, the. Rothbartian style of libertarian. populism really always appealed to me is. because that's who it's geared toward. The Kato Institute wants an audience. with the Senate. the Mises Institute and. the Libertarian Institute and. anti-war.com. We want an audience with.

the population of this country, right? That's who we're trying to talk to. That's who we are. That's where we come. from. We're not Washington DC folk. We're from out here and are we're. speaking in the third person about them, you know, rather trying to be part of. the regime. I I just want to say briefly. that the you said the people that call. in are usually brilliant and that's the. experience I've had. Uh, I've recorded a. few conversations just on the street. Like I went to the West Bank and I. interviewed a bunch of people on the. street. Uh, and I really want to do that a lot.

more because I didn't meet a single. person who's not brilliant in their own. way. >> It's like it's remarkable. It's. remarkable the brilliance that comes. from people. >> You ever listen sports radio? >> Not not as much as I probably should. >> Yeah. Well, look, you know what? Well, I. don't know if this counts anymore, but I. spent a little bit of time in Denver. listening to sports radio in Denver. These people are fanatics, man. But the. point being that, you know, Jimmy, the air conditioner. repair man is smarter than you, dude.

And he knows everything that every. baseball team ever achieved and win and. who and everyone on the teams, all their. stats, all their everything and why it. mattered. And it mattered a lot to them. And the level of expertise there is no. different than in your highest applied. sciences or history or any other thing. You know what I mean? It all just. depends on what you're interested in and. what you want to know that much about. And this is Nam Chomsky's thing that he. talked about where.

>> look, if you're a primate that's. intelligent enough to speak, then you. are a genius, right? Then you are absolute miracle. Unbelievable. Impossible, >> you know? circumstance. um situation of your very existence and. so we all ought to be taken like at that. very level you know what I mean like no. matter who you're dealing with there's. something special in there you know. >> yeah and usually it comes with humility. because people with PhDs and Harvard and.

so on they usually have this. overinflated ego that comes from. authority but sports radio people on the. street everyday folks they don't have. that and so they could just speak their. expertise without the ego Yeah. Well, and that's my thing, too, is I don't. have nothing to sell you other than I. mean my coffee sponsor and whatever, but. like my my sincerity is like all I got. I don't have any other argument from. authority that I can invoke other than. people listen to me. They know I'm not. lying and they can tell what my biases.

are. I wear them absolutely on my. sleeve. You know what I mean? Is every. day I only try to quantify whether I. hate Bill Clinton or George W. Bush. more. And it's and that's where I'm coming. from and everybody understands that and. they know that I'd never deliberately. try to make them think one thing instead. of another. And if I did, they would. obviously catch on to that and then I'd. be completely ruined and have to just go. get a job delivering auto parts or. something and which would be fine. In. fact, I like delivering auto parts. I've.

had that job before. Um although I'd. rather drive at night if I got to drive. I rather I guess drive a Uber at night. But if you still have energy. >> Oh, I'm not even halfway done. What. about you? All right, got all the energy. in the world. Maybe a quick bathroom. break. >> A good place to pick up our story here. would be uh John Mirshimer and Steven. Walt's book. We've talked about Mir. Shimemer and Walt previously. Now their. book is called The Israel Lobby and. American Foreign Policy. It came out in. 2007. It started out as an essay that they.

wrote first for the Atlantic Monthly. that commissioned the story and then. refused to run it. And they ended up. running it in the London Review of. Books. We also ran it at anti-war.com. People can find it there. It's called. the Israel lobby and American foreign. policy. It's a fantastic article and. then they made it into a book. And now. these guys are again the co-ans. basically of the realist school of. foreign policy. One from the University. of Chicago, the other from Harvard. Both. highly respected. Neither of them haters.

or ideologues or any of these things. They were ruthlessly attacked as. anti-semmites for this, which is. completely preposterous. And what they. did though was say that look man, Israel's interests are very different. than ours. And that's why they spend so. much money and effort lobbying in the. United States to try to obuscate that. fact that what's good for them ain't. necessarily good for us at all. Well, they have to make sure it's at least. good for the people in charge here, if. not for the country itself. And that's.

their object. And as Walt Mirshimemer. say in the essay and in the book that. you can't blame the whole Iraq war on. them. George W. Bush was the one sitting. in the chair behind that desk calling. that shot. He could have changed his. mind at the very last moment. It was on. him. And now it's the Congress's. responsibility, but they passed that. responsibility to him with their. unconstitutional authorization that they. passed in October of 2002. But like. ultimately who pulled that trigger? George W. Bush did. and inconspiracy.

with his vice president and his. secretary of defense and the rest of. them. So the neocons, yes, they were the. deputy secretary of defense and the. deputy secretary of defense for policy. and the, you know, staff in the vice. president's office, the staff of the. National Security Council. They were. there operating really, as I said, as. that, as Coen Pal called it, that. separate government and operating mostly. for Benjamin Netanyahu's goals. Um, this.

is part of what we argued about uh me. and Mark Dubowitz on your show last time. was he insisted somewhat partially. correctly here that Ariel Chiron wanted. Bush to hit Iran, not Iraq. And Ariel. Chiron, not Netanyahu, was the prime. minister. And that was the occasion of. him accusing JJ Goldberg of being an. anti-semite. Um because he had written. in the Jewish Daily Forward about how. Netanyahu wants to hit Iraq. Chiron. would rather hit Iran. And JJ Goldberg,

as long as I'm citing him, let me tell. you, he says in there very clearly that. he is not saying that the neocons bear. even the lion's share of the. responsibility for the war. Of course, he blames George W. Bush for launching. the war. And of course, he's not. pedaling in some anti-semitic conspiracy. theory and the pages of the forward for. God's sake, right? He's he's extremely. conservative in his statements and in. his accusations. But what he's saying is.

that the Lakunix in America are closer. to Netanyahu than Chiron. And of course, George W. Bush wants to go to Iraq. He. wants to go to Baghdad, not Tyrron. And. so it and and Wolawitz of course always. especially was an Iraq hawk. And so the. confluence of interest here was to go to. Iraq. Now Chiron was smart enough to see. that Iran you know the clean break. wasn't him. That was Netanyahu and his.

buddies. Chiron I think was skeptical. about what's going to happen when we. overthrow Saddam Hussein and the Shiites. take over. And this is where he tried to. insist and John Bolton did echo him in. this and promise him that yes, and then. we'll go to Iran and Syria and Lebanon. and everywhere else next because we. can't just get rid of Saddam. That's. going to change the balance of power in. a way that's going to benefit Iran in a. way that Chiron did not prefer. However, Chiron absolutely did go along with the. program and help lie us into war. and he.

had his own office of special plans that. he created in the the prime minister's. office in Israel where they manufactured. fake intelligence in English to. stovepipe into the intelligence stream. to help lie us into war. And here's. three authoritative sources on that. Julian Borer in the Guardian, the spies. who pushed for war. And it's not the. spies, it's the neoconservatives is who. he's talking about, not CIA officers. The spies who pushed for war by Julian. Borger. Then there's more missing.

intelligence by Robert Drifus in the. nation. Then is a pretext for war. 9/11. Iraq and the abuse of America's. intelligence agencies by James Bamford, the great book by the great James. Bamford, the guy that wrote the puzzle. palace and body of secrets and the. shadow factory about the National. Security Agency. Best author on the NSA. Pretext for War focuses on the neocons. and the CIA and how the neocons lied us. into war for Netanyahu and and Israel. I.

don't remember. Oh, and the whole first. part is about 9/11 and how 9/11 happened. and how the government failed to stop. it. And then the shadow factor is really. insightful on those lines because we. often hear about the infighting between. the FBI and the CIA. But the NSA also. hoarded all their information and would. not share with the FBI or CIA. And the. CIA at one point and and Michael Shyer. also tells the story, CIA had to create. their own listening station on. Madagascar to try to spy on al Qaeda. hiding out in Yemen, the switchboard. house in Yemen because the NSA would not.

give them the intercepts. They had to. get their own, but they could only get. half the conversation and not the other. half talking to the terrorists in. Afghanistan. And as Shyer put it to me. on my show, I don't know, 15 years ago. or something, he said, "Yeah, cuz George. Tennant didn't have the moral courage to. just walk down there and demand the damn. intercepts." Because at that time the. head of the CIA was also the director of. central intelligence which meant the. boss like the DNI is supposed to be over. all the other intelligence agencies. So. George Tennant had the authority to. command NSA to do what he said. He.

didn't have to ask nicely. >> But according to Shyer, he didn't have. the courage to just go down there and. say, "Give me the damn intercept.". >> Why not? >> Scumbag. You know, he came from staff in the. Senate. I think just wanted to please. the real spies. you know, like he was. kind of the new guy and didn't really. fit in and was trying to like be cool or. whatever and I don't know, who knows. these people. But um so importantly, you know, the Ariel Chiron government. did help to push this thing even though.

Duboitz is right that Chiron first said, "No, Bush, you should go to Tyrron. first." Because that was his problem. It. was I guess I don't know if I'd have to. go back and and see if anybody ever. wrote about this, but I never saw like. Chiron's opinion of the clean break, but. it's easy to see how anyone could see. through how stupid the plan was. We're. going to weaken the Shiites by getting. rid of the most powerful Sunnis standing. in their way. That's pretty dumb, right? And especially if you really know about, for example, the history of the Iran. Iraq war, the history of the post Iraq.

War I Shiite uprising, you might have. real reason to worry. Justin Armando at. anti-war.com wrote in 2002. He said, "Hey, look everybody. The Supreme. Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq, the CIA tried to give the money and they. said, "Piss off. We don't need you. We. got Iran." And Justin said, "Better. watch out. Here's who's coming to power. when we invade Iraq a year from now.". And then that's exactly what happened is. the the again the bottom brigade was the. militia of the Supreme Council for.

Islamic Revolution in Iraq. And that was. exactly who George W. Bush took all the. way to power in Baghdad. So for the guys. who fought in that war, who are. listening to this, who still don't know. why they fought in that war, ultimately. they fought on the Shiite side of a. massive civil war against the minority. Sunni ruling regime and to replace them. with a new essentially Islamist. theocracy sort of pseudo republic like. in Iran. And that that's what it was. for. It's not for freedom. It was for. one faction over the other. And in this.

case, it was the Shiites. And then of. course the most powerful fact, it's. worth explaining, not of course, that. the most powerful um Shiite groups that. came together to form the new Iraqi. government was the Supreme Council for. Islamic Revolution in Iraq, Skiri, which. is now called ISKY because we won their. revolution for them. So now it's just. the Islamic Supreme Council of Iraq, the. Dawa party, and Mktata Assad and his Mi. army. Now Dawa and Skiri have been.

living in Iran and they were kind of. more higher class types whereas Maktad. Al Solder is like the son of important. guys. It was much more like a street. ruffian type and the ghetto the Shiite. ghetto in eastern Baghdad was called. Saddam City. As soon as America invaded, they renamed it Solder City after his. father, but he inherited a lot of that. street credibility as like the the most. legitimate of the Shiite leaders on the. ground there. So these three groups.

under the guidance of the Ayatollah Ali. al- Sistani who lived down in Najaf. under his leadership or guidance or. whatever they formed what was called the. United Iraqi alliance. That was the. group that wrote the constitution in the. fall of 2004. That was a group that won. the elections, the big purple fingered. elections of 2005. And that's what. kicked off the real civil war started. after that. Now, there was already a. predominantly Sunni- based insurgency at. that time. It was not exclusively Sunni. It started out much more nationalist and. mixed, but very quickly it was the Sunni.

tribal leaders and former Baist and and. military leaders realizing that they. have everything to lose now and that. they have the super majority of the. country backed by the United States is. now taking power. And then so this. pushed the Sunnis into the arms, the. Sunni insurgency into the arms of the. Bin Laden who were coming from all over. the place just like it was Afghanistan. or Bosnia or Cheschnney again or Kosovo. coming to all chip in to fight the Holy.

Jihad this time against us instead of. with our help although still backed by. our friends the Saudis. um and they came. in there and America and the Shiites. pushed the Sunni insurgency into the. arms of the Bin Laden. And um in fact, I'll tell you an anecdote about how that. happened. Um and so much of this is tied up in. what's happening in Israel at this time. as well. In January of 2004, Shik Yasin, who was.

the founder of Hamas, which was a. breakoff of the Muslim Brotherhood, it. was originally like a charitable type. organization that ended up growing into. this militia with the aid and comfort of. the Israelis. And there's some really. great articles that you might like to. peruse about this, including uh by. Richard Sale in UPI. If you just type in. uh Richard cell UBI Hamas, I'm sure. it'll just come straight up there. Israel gave major aid to Hamas. This is.

an in-depth study. It's based on CIA as. well as Shinbet and MSAD sources. Richard Sale, if people aren't familiar, UPI is the news agency most closely tied. to the Washington Times, which would be. the Reaganite Conservative uh newspaper. in Washington. It's funny because it's. the Washington Post and the New York. Times are the liberal papers and the New. York Post and the Washington Times are. the conservative papers if you got that.

right. So, so basically this this. article details how Tel Aviv, Israel. gave direct and indirect financial aid. to Hamas over a period of many years. And the purpose was to build them up to. divide and conquer the Palestinians to. create a religious right-wing. alternative to the secular nationalist. sort of pseudo kami PLO under Yaser. Arafat. They wanted to divide and conquer the. Palestinians. And so what they would do.

is they would finance directly finance. Hamas while at the same time arresting. all of their competitors and holding. them in prison, disarming them, weakening them while bolstering the. Hamas government. So they did not create. Hamas, but they did very deliberately. bolster its rise. Now Hezbollah is a. different story where Hezbollah just. really grew up in reaction to their. invasion of Lebanon in 82 without any. direct support from them in that sense. Although maybe I don't know enough about. that, but certainly in this case with.

Damas, that's true. And you can also. read Andrew Higgins in the Wall Street. Journal wrote a great piece along the. same lines. Want to pull that up for us here? How. Israel helped to spawn Hamas. Andrew. Higgins 2009. So I can also recommend. Robert Drifus' book Devil's Game: How. the United States helped to unleash. fundamentalist Islam. Masterpiece. Also. again, Tree to Parsey's Treacherous. Alliance. Cannot recommend that book. highly enough. That thing might go into.

its third printing just because of me. I'm telling you, everybody's got to read. that book. And then, Obstacle to Peace. by Libertarian Institute fellow Jeremy. R. Hammond wrote a masterpiece about. Israel and Palestine and the fight over. the occupied territories and America's. role in making it all worse and the. rest. It's fantastic book. Goes in deep. study about this. Now, back to our our. anecdote. In January 2004, old Shik Yasine with his big Santa Claus.

beard and his wheelchair says, "I give. up. I give in. We need to go ahead and. negotiate with the Israelis and settle. for our measly stinking 22% of historic. Palestine, just as Arafat had done in. 1988. 2 months later, the Israelis killed him. in a missile strike just so they could. lie to you, Lex, and say, "We have no. partner for peace.". Somehow a missile blew up his car and. they're the ones who killed him. And. when they killed him in March of 2004,

that's what touched off the riot in. Fallujah where the four Blackwater. guards were murdered and burned and. their bodies hanged from the bridge. outside of town and they had a giant. pray the great war journalist was there. and saw they had pictures of Yasine in. their windshields. They called. themselves the al-yasin brigades. And it. was this impromptu protest against. Israel's murder of the leader of Hamas. And that's what caused that riot that. killed those Blackwater guards. And then.

George W. Bush sent General James. Madison there with his Marines, including now a couple of friends of. mine, who had to go in there and fight. that thing and declared that thing a. free fire zone like Vietnam and killed. hundreds if not thousands of innocent. civilians. in the first battle of. Fallujah which they claimed that Zarqawi. the bin Laden knight who wasn't even. really a bin Laden knight yet he didn't. declare his loyalty to Bin Laden until. the end of 2004 a year and a half into. the war um but they pretended so 6. months later but they pretended that he.

was already tied to Bin Laden he was one. of the lies in in Coen Powell's UN. speech that there's this guy named. Zarqawa and he's tied to Bin Laden and. he's tied to Saddam well he wasn't tied. to Bin Laden he had told Bin Laden no I. don't want to join your group and he. wasn't tied to Saddam unlike the lies of. Ahmed Chalabi and the exiles. He was not. operated on by Saddam Hussein and given. a peg leg in the Baghdad hospital. That. was a hoax perpetrated by the Weekly. Standard and the neoconservative set um. to tie those two together. In fact, he. wasn't tied to either. And then only.

after the war and America made him. famous and claimed that he was a bin. Laden did Zarqawi raise and stature. Zarqawi was like more apocalyptic and. revolutionary and and even nihilistic. and destructive than Bin Laden's. doctrines ever were. And he was. notoriously sectarian against the. Shiites where Bin Laden, you know, I. don't think in and I have not read. everything the guy ever wrote, but I. have read a lot of his stuff and I never. saw where he really seems to focus on.

problems against the Shiites. Again, Muhammad Ata and Ramsay bin Alashe, they. were mad because of Shimom Perez and. Naftali Bennett killing Shiite. Palestinians in Lebanon. The fact that. they were Shiites didn't make them less. valuable as far as wanting to avenge. their deaths as far as that goes. Zarqawi, on the other hand, thought, "No, the only good Shiite is a dead. Shiite. God says so." and this kind of. like cra bring on the apocalypse kind of. deal and went for you know madness. suicide bombing Shiite pilgrims and.

doing like just absolute atrocities. against civilians which of course like. the guy may be good at making bomb vests. but he's not good at math because. there's just way too many Shiites and so. by boycotting the election refusing to. participate in the new order which they. got the American superpower occupying. the country with 300 100,000 troops or. at that point maybe 200,000 but still um. and in alliance with the supermajority.

those Sunni chiefs should have figured. out a way to deal saying no way let's. fight was a huge mistake from them and. then entering into alliance with the bin. Laden only made it worse because and. this is it is directly because of Israel. killing Yasine and then the battle of. Fallujah that helped drive a bunch of. refugees out of Fallujah who then went. to Baghdad who drove people out of their. areas and then you had a lot of tit. fortat back and forth as refugees from.

the different cities are being cleansed. out. So in the predominantly Shiite. cities they're kicking all the Sunnis. out and in the predominantly Shi Sunni. areas they're kicking all the Shiites. out and people are being displaced. Darl, I swear I I looked and looked and. maybe I still could find it somewhere. But I think the last time I tried to. find I couldn't find it anymore. But it. was Dar Jale had this most brilliant. article where he traced the cause and. effect through the wars from the. beginning of the you know the war began. in 03 of course but like the real. worsening of the insurgency in '04 and.

the chain of events from this city to. this city to this city where these. different refugees are displacing other. people and causing these worse. consequences to go through and where. more and more then the Sunnis especially. being cleansed from Baghdad and they're. being pushed into the arms of the bin. Laden. nights again all touched off by. Israel assassinating their own pseudo. sock puppet you know terrorist frontman. excuse for uh an imperialist policy that.

they had supported when he was finally. ready to completely capitulate to them. they killed them so he couldn't and that. was what caused all this problem for. America or you know not caused but. contributed significantly to the. problems during the war also during that. same time. This was the first time that. Mktatada als. Shiites and pickup trucks to Fallujah to. go help in the name of Iraqi nationalism. uh to help the Sunnis at that time. And.

they had a whole separate little war. with him in Solder City in eastern. Baghdad at that time which was a real. problem because as I said Solder had so. much street credibility there among the. the people and where to this day he is. still one of the most empower one of the. most important and powerful kingmakers. uh in Shiite politics in that country. right now. And so they were, you know, essentially blowing up and sabotaging. their own ability to use diplomacy to.

work with this guy. And he became the. most intrigent part of the Sunni. insurgency. There's so many different. parts of this, but one of the things. that's really important, I think, to. talk about is that David Petraeus, his. first job was up in Mosul trying to. train up a militia to be our guys, and. they just took the money and guns and. joined the insurgency against us. It was. an absolute catastrophe. He gave him a. bunch of weapons and money and then was. humiliated and kicked right the hell out. of there. His next job, right, after.

empowering the the Sunni insurgency up. in Mosul, was to go to Baghdad and to. turn the bottom brigade of the Supreme. Islamic Council. The same guys who. Saddam feared in 1980, which is why he. started the war. The same guys who. George HW Bush be feared in 1991, which. is why he betrayed their uprising. Same. guys that W. Bush is now taking all the. way to Baghdad. David Petraeus is now in. charge of building them into the Iraqi. army. And that's who was going around. torturing everybody to death. And I.

don't know if you saw the movie American. Sniper about Chris Kyle directed by. Clint Eastwood. And I'm a real big Clint. Eastwood fan. I'm really disappointed in. this in this fact. It's really bad. What. he did in that movie was he portrayed. the Sunni insurgents torturing people to. death with power drills and portrayed. Chris Kyle saving them. But that's not. true. It was America's guys, the bottom. brigade of the Supreme Islamic Council. They were the ones torturing people to. death with power drills through the.

shoulder, through the heart, through the. eyeball, through the ear, through the. temple. So at that time the America was. supporting the Brigade. that time. America is building the bottom brigade. into the Iraqi army as we know it today. And David Petraeus, this is where we. have what's called the El Salvador. option, which what does that sound like? Paying right-wing desks to go around. killing commies in the case of El. Salvador, preventing it from becoming a. Nicaragua, right? In the 1980s, it was. John Negroponte who had worked for.

Ronald Reagan in El Salvador as the. ambassador then on this covert action. killing all these people who was then. brought in to be ambassador to run what. they call the El Salvador option of. empowering the Shiite militias to. finally finish crushing the Sunni. insurgency which of course they. absolutely failed to do. They simply. radicalize them and made it that much. worse and worse and worse. And this was. all on David Petraeus. He was the one in. charge of this thing. So that made the. civil war just absolutely horrific. through 20056.

and then coming into seven. Now in '06, James Baker says we got to get out of. there. Old guard brought in to say we. need to figure out a way out. That's. embarrassing for Bush. Bush decides no, he wants to double down instead. He's. going to do the surge at David. Petraeus's recommendation. He fired. Rumsfeld who now wanted out. Said I I. told you light and fast. Let's get out. He said, "We got to take the training. wheels off. Let the Iraqi democracy. figure out a way to work on its own. without us now." Which was, you know.

what? Hell, take it, right? Cut and run. This ain't working. And he's really. right. They're like, if they're going to. figure this out for good or for ill, through blood or through handshakes and. bribes or what? It has to be up to them. ultimately. And so, yeah. So, what did. Bush do? Kick him right out the door. It's the first time he said something. reasonable. And he brought in Robert. Gates, who's supposed to be like a old. James Baker type, his father's guy, who. had been the head of the CIA, whose. fault it was that the CIA didn't know. that the Soviet Union was falling apart, right? Because they were too busy.

pretending that the Soviet Union was 12t. tall at the time. Same guy Bush Jr. brings him in and he oversees the surge. And this is where they do the massive. escalation in the beginning of 2007. And it's funny because they dropped all. the propaganda about Iran's nuclear. program for a little bit because they. had a new line. And the new line was. that whenever a Shiite sets off a bomb. in Iraq, it's an Iranian bomb. And this. is where you and your audience have. heard a 100 times, a thousand, that Iran.

killed 600 of our guys in Iraq. That's. what they say. Well, here's the truth of. that. It was 500 guys, not six. And it. wasn't Iran. Those bombs, they were a. new and improved kind of IED, improvised. explosive device. Our guys called them. explosively formed penetrators, EFPs. And they were shape charged and they had. a copper core. And that copper core when. the explosive went off would melt and.

that molten copper would then slice. right through armor. And that was what. made it the new and improved bomb. Now. the propaganda at the time was even. though it was David Petraeus who at this. time decided to attack McTara Alsader in. the name of claiming that he was an. Iranian agent. In fact, Mktata als. talked about this a little bit on the on. a tangent I shouldn't have taken on the. last time I was here. But Todd Al Solder. was the least Iranian.

puppet of the major Shiite faction. leaders because where Dawa and Sciri had. lived in Iran for 20 years at this. point, he hadn't. He'd stayed. And he. was insisting that Iran and the United. States butt out and leave Iraq to. Iraqis. So you see the problem there. Even though he wants Iran to leave and. wants to limit their influence, he also. wants to limit ours. The Bush. administration's idea is no, we're going. to bet that the government of Iraq, mostly made of Dawa and Skiri, that they.

will need our money and our weapons more. than they need Iran next door. So if we. stick it out and even compromise. repeatedly with Iran on who should be. the prime minister like Ibrahim Jafari. and Nuriel Maliki from the Dawa party. and we come to this is the only time we. talk to Iran at all is sort of secretly. quietly agreeing on who the Iraqi prime. minister should be as we're doing this. right so Matad Alsader even though he is.

trying to limit Iranian authority he. also wants to limit ours so So the. Americans decide they want to target. him. So it wasn't Solder that picked. that bite. It was David Petraeus in the. service of Dick Cheney working to try. and and with uh with in conspiracy with. Michael Gordon of the New York Times to. try to lie the American people into war. with Iran then in the name of these. bombs. And they made a massive. propaganda campaign in the spring of. 2007. Every time a bomb goes off in.

Shiite territory, that was Iran that did. it. They claimed over and over. said the. point is and the problem is and I cite. in the book by names of the journalists. and their um affiliations. at least eight or 10 different American. and other foreign reporters there. Nobody with a you know Iranian dog in. the I'm not citing Press TV here. I'm. citing the New York Times. Um Michael. Gordon, he's now at the the Wall Street.

Journal, but he was at the New York. Times. He's he is the guy who bylinined. with Judy Miller every story where they. lied that Saddam Hussein is seeking a. bomb parts and Saddam Hussein is making. nuclear weapons and wants germs and. chemicals and all these things. Judy. Miller took the rap for the whole media. But her co-author Michael Gordon lived. to still lie to us to this day in the. Wall Street Journal, but he was the one. in charge of this um this essentially. just this conspiracy to lie the American. people into war through the pages of the. New York Times. But I show that his.

colleague, Alyssa Rubin, proved that. he's a damned liar because she was there. with soldiers. Printed it in his same. newspaper. She was there with American. soldiers when they found an EFP factory. in Solder City, I'm pretty sure. But. there was a bunch wherever it was, it. was in Shiite territory in Iraq. And it. was Iraqis working in a machine shop. making these bombs. And now they go, "Okay, well, but the parts all came from. Iran." Oh, yeah. No, they had to. The. Iranians thought, "You know what we'll. do? will ship the parts into Iraq for.

them to make bombs out of instead of. just sending them bombs. Like whatever, man. It was obviously just a bunch of. propaganda. And I site in there, the. Christian Science Monitor was there when. they did Operation Eagle Claw found. another factory making EFPs. And then I. site also Wired magazine, the brilliant. Andrew Coburn, and a bunch of other. great sources that just show these bombs. were made in Iraq by Iraqis. I don't. care what you say. And I I disprove this. over and over again on the blog at. anti-war.com in 2007. over and over and. over again. So if in fact if you just.

search my name anti-war.com especially. if you search antiwar.com/blog. and EFPs you will get a bunch of hits. because we went over this all at the. time making me feel extra old right now. >> Yeah, that's years ago. >> Holy shit. >> Yeah, EFPs are made in Iraq by Iraqis. >> Scott Hordon, August 12th, 2007. >> And there's a bunch of them. That's just. one of many that I did at the, you know, during that era. And um, again, citing.

solid proof for those who listen to N2. radio, you know, I refute this lie every single. day. Citing Reuters and this Christian. Science Monitor, Operation Black Eagle. I'm sorry I got. the name of the Eagle thing wrong. I. said Eagle Claw, didn't I? Operation. Black Eagle was where the Christian. Science Monitor was tagging along. But there's a bunch of these. Um, and so now Dubowit said, "Oh yeah,

well Iran taught him how to do it then.". No, Gareth Porter showed that it was the. IRA, the Irish Republican Army that. taught Lebanese Hezbala, and it was. Lebanese Hezbala that taught the Shiite. Iraqis how to do it. So when I said it. was Lebanese Hezbollah, Dubo goes, "Aha, Iran." Nope. They got it from the Irish. So sorry, Charlie. nice little. propaganda campaign you got there. But. then what happened was they did a big. press conference where they laid out all.

the EFP bombs uh and the parts and the. reporters started milling around and. they go, "Well, that's funny. That one. says made in Haditha on it," which is a. city in Iraq. And that one says made in. UAE and all this and then so what do we. have here? Do we have any evidence that. any of this stuff came from Iran? No. And then what did they do, Lex? They. cancelled the press conference, closed. it down, embarrassed, and Steven Hadley, the national security adviser himself, admitted we didn't have the proof that.

we needed to make the case. Just. promising, "Oh, we're going to prove it. We're going to prove it. We're going to. prove it." And kicking that can down the. road for months until I think it must. have been May or June when they finally. did this press conference that fell. apart and started to back down. Was that. the major justification for the. escalation? It was not the justification. for the escalation of the surge overall. The escal the rationalization there was. we are going to send an extra 30 or. 40,000 troops to Baghdad. We are going.

to secure the capital city and once we. have peace in the capital city, the. peace of desolation where we kill every. last Sunni who resists by putting a. power drill through his eyeball. Um then. um we'll be able to negotiate peacefully. in the setting of our new democratic. republic that we've built here. That was. the justification there. And at the same. time, David Petraeus, and this is the. only victory that David Petraeus ever. won in his entire stupid, stinking. failure of a pathetic lying life. And. that is when he convinced George W. Bush.

to surrender to the Sunni insurgency. Mr. President, you're not going to. defeat the Sunni insurgency. Read me. loud and clear. All this victory you've. been promising all these years, all the. people that you've killed trying to. bring it, sending the desert ox Ray. Odiero in there to kill every last. living fighting age male in the Amar. province. We've lost, Mr. President. And. so what we're going to do is we're going. to bribe the Sunni insurgency right now. They've they have.

Well, okay, I I overstay that. We didn't. lo We didn't lose. We failed to beat. them, but they did lose much territory. to the Shiites. So they were licking. their wounds at that time. The Sunni. insurgency, the Iraqi Sunnis had too. many enemies. They were fighting the. Shiites. They were fighting the. Americans and they had to deal with the. Bin Laden. And they hated the Bin Laden. They didn't want to live like Saudis and. a bunch of Egyptian weirdo suicide. bombers trying to outlaw women from. buying cucumbers at the market because.

it's some kind of sexual innuendo. and. what are these people like get these. people out of my face and I show in the. book and there are plenty of reporting. about plent there was plenty of. reporting about this that beginning at. least in early 2005 it was the local. Sunni population this is 2 years before. David Petraeus runs to try to get to the. head of this parade two years previously. in the beginning of '05 was when the. local Sunnis started killing the bin. Laden themselves and saying you can't.

tell us what to do you're more harm than. good you're making our insurgency into a. counterproductive war by killing all. these Shiite civilians and and. generating all new uh support for our. crushing at their hands and all of that. So they were isolating and and and. killing these guys off and you got to. figure dude I mean this is like a magic. wish come true okay George W. Bush comes. and he turns all of western Iraq, right, Fallujah to Cree, um much of Ramani and.

and obviously Mosul into Bin Laden into. jihadi university bigger and better and. worse than Afghanistan, Bosnia, Cheschna. This is all those combined and. it's in western Iraq right on the on the. border of the Levants in Mesopotamia not. Nangar province out there in no man's. land between Afghanistan and Pakistan. This is this is what made America, as.

Michael Shyer said, bin Laden's only. indispensable ally, right? That you. could do like a reverse 9/11 trutherism. where all the Americans are actually al. Qaeda agents all this time cuz all. they're doing is exactly what Bin Laden. wants them to do. Michael Shyer said. that, oh, of course, Afghanistan was the. plan, but Iraq, that was the hoped for. but unexpected gift to Bin Laden. Bin. Laden said on the eve of the invasion, "Rise up, Iraqis. Kill the socialist.

infidel Saddam Hussein. And then resist. the Americans when they arrive.". Okay. One guy's got a beret and a. mustache. The other guy's got a beard. and is all wearing a funny robe like. Obi-Wan Kenobi. And and they clearly are. extremely different men with extremely. different sets of priorities, right? Couldn't be more different. And of. course, Saddam Hussein was terrified of. Osama bin Laden and had no connection to.

his regime whatsoever. And in fact, we. know now that he had kicked himself. upstairs and was semi-retired writing a. romance novel at the time of the. invasion is uh that's how determined. Saddam Hussein was to attack inside the. United States. to paraphrase the CIA. warning George Bush about al Qaeda on. August the 6th, 2001 when he told. Michael Morurell, his briefer, the guy. who later helped frame Donald Trump for. treason with Russia and everything. He. told Michael Morell, "Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You've covered your ass.".

>> Uh, can you clarify? I said was writing. a romance novel at the time of the. invasion. Is that real? >> Yes, >> that's real. >> Yes. No harm to us whatsoever. what they. could have done. Let me let me ask you. to stretch your engineers's imagination. here to like wild metaphysical type. concepts outside of your usual reach. You know, you're maybe more of a right. brain guy or something, but like trip. out Lex Freedman. The Secretary of State. was Colon Powell, the fourstar general,

former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of. Staff. You think he might have been tough. enough to just send over there and tell. Saddam Hussein, "Here's the riot act. I'm going to read it to you and then. you're going to sign on the dotted line, buddy boy." And and if you think that. Coen Powell wasn't man enough for that, don't you think that mean old uh Donald. Rumsfeld his old friend from 1983 when. Ronald Reagan sent him to be special uh. emissary over there when he offered. Saddam Hussein support for his military.

campaign against Iran and browbe him and. tried to get him to build a pipeline to. the port of Aaba for Israel? That's what. that famous picture of Rumsfeld shaking. hands with Hussein. That's what that. meeting was about. One, we'll give you. weapons, too. We want you to build a. pipeline for the Israelis. Um, you think. he could have sent gruff old Donald. Rumsfeld over there to tell Saddam. Hussein one thing? Your job is keeping. Bin Laden down. Read me. Okay. We have a.

new priority in our foreign policy in. the Middle East. We don't want anyone to. be friends with Osama bin Laden or his. men. That sound reasonable to you? And. then Saddam Hussein of course would have. said of course. And in fact Saddam. Hussein and you can read this only. months later into the war, maybe a year. into the war, James Ryzen wrote it in. the New York Times that Saddam Hussein. sent an emissary to meet with Richard. Pearl in London and surrender to him and. say if this is about democracy, we'll.

hold elections. If this is about Israel, we'll stop funding Hamas. If this is. about oil, we'll give you the mineral. rights. If this about weapons of mass. destruction, you can send your army. and FBI wherever you want to look. I give up. Please don't kill me. And. Richard Pearl told the emissary, "You. tell them we'll see him in Baghdad.".

They refused. And Seymour Hirs had. another story just like that where. Hussein sent a Lebanese businessman to. again surrender to say we're willing to. negotiate on any and every term that you. could possibly name for us. And America. refused and went to war anyway. By the. way, when they did in 2003, uh first of all, in 2001, they held a. million man candlelight vigil in Thran. on September the 12th and the Ayatollah. said, "Now's our chance to make friends. with the United States. They hate Saddam.

Hussein and they hate the Taliban. Great. Us too. So they said, "Now's our. chance to again try to reach out to the. United States." Did I skip and forget to. mention that in 1993? Oh, this was going to be part of our. Cold War story, but it overlaps. In. 1993, Zabna Brazinski, the right-wing. sort of hawkish realist national. security adviser for Jimmy Carter, and. Alexander Heg, who had been Kissinger's. right-hand man and was Ronald Reagan's. secretary of state. They both wanted to.

build oil pipelines across Iran to the. Persian Gulf. one to make money and for. American companies, but also two to. bring in Iran from the cold and open up. an opportunity to normalize relations. between our country and their country. The oil business is a great way to do. that. Later in the 1990s, the CEO of. Hallebertton, Dick Cheney, said the same. thing, that Bill Clinton's sanctions. are irresponsible. We should lift the.

sanctions against Iran and we should do. business with Iran because after all, God didn't see fit to leave all the oil. under wonderful Western allied. democracies and so we have to deal with. who we have to deal with. that was in. the interest of his company and quite. frankly it was in the interest of the. United States of America at the time. caused a little mini scandal because one. of the times that Cheney repeated. himself in these criticisms was in. Australia and that's supposed to be a. cardinal sin to criticize your own. country from the soil of another country. and he had been the former secretary of. defense. So that was a kind of a you.

know um social uh you know error or. whatever that got him a little um more. controversy about those statements then. probably they would have got any uh. probably more attention than they would. have got otherwise for the substance of. them. Um but so we had every opportunity. to deal with Iran in the 1990s and then. Lex guess why Clinton didn't do that was. because the Israel lobby said no. That. was in the Washington Post. They did. this great series, Dan Otawway and Dan.

Morgan, I think, well, whatever. Morgan. and Ottoay, I forget their first names. They did a multi-part series all about. the oil politics of the Caspian Basin. And it was Apac and the Israel lobby. that said, "No, you cannot normalize. relations with Iran. Veto." And so, Brzinski and Hague backed down from. their plans and the companies that they. were representing in doing that and went. the other way. in the cold war with Iran. remained all through the rest of the. century again waged from basis in Saudi. getting our towers knocked down. Now.

it's the new era. We go to war with uh. with the Taliban and Afghanistan. Iran. says we'll do anything that we can to. help you with that. Then you guys want. to get rid of Saddam Hussein? Not only. will we help you with that, guess what? Ahmed Chalabi's Iraqi National. Congress's headquarters was in Thrron. Guess who sponsored the Iraqi Shiite. exile to tell the neoconservatives that. the new Shiite supermajority regime will. build a oil pipeline to Hifa and tell.

Hezbollah to stop being friends with. Iran and be nice to Israel. And so they said we have these common. interests and yet there was a terrorist. attack in 2004 and the neocons just. lied. It was inside Saudi Arabia and the. neocons lied and said bin Laden and his. men had planned it from inside Iran. which was a total lie. Had nothing to do. with Iran but that was enough for idiot. W. Bush who doesn't know anything to go. along with oh okay then and so now Iran. is back on the enemy side of the ledger.

of the war on terror where of course. they have no alliance with bin Laden. The only time they backed bin Laden was. as a favor to Bill Clinton in Bosnia in. 19 in the 1990s. And so um they had no. love for the bin Laden whatsoever. And. despite all the lies, Bin Laden was. hiding in Pakistan, not in Iran. And and. the bin Laden who did make it to Iran. were under house arrest. And the. Iranians were trying to negotiate with. the Americans to hand them over or at.

least hand them over to their home. countries wherever they were from. and. they were offering to negotiate what was. then called they they submitted this. through the Swiss ambassador in the. spring of 03 either right before the war. or right after the war. I think it must. have been right after the invasion of. Iraq. It was called the golden offer. And not only did Bush and his men reject. it, but they even gave I think John. Bolton gave a big dressing down to the. Swiss ambassador for daring to even. bring the proposal to them.

And again it just like with Saddam. Hussein the Ayatollah was showing his. willingness to negotiate essentially. anything of controversy including. support for Hamas and Hisbala including. their nuclear program which at that. point was just you could barely even. call it nent at all. Um they they had. not begun spitting a single centrifuge. at that point and they wanted to. negotiate over these bin Laden if we. would exchange them for members of the. mek, the mujaheden eculk communist. terrorist cult which was like some.

Jonestown total kookery type of a cult. that um that level of kookery like. heaven's gate you know just comet. chasing lunatics and they had helped. with the Iranian revolution but then. they had betrayed it and had been kicked. out of Iran by the Ayatollah. But then. they went to work for Saddam Hussein. They helped Saddam Hussein during the. Shiite and Kurdish uprising in 1991. They helped crush the Kurds with their. tanks in that as special agents of.

Saddam during that. And then they and. then the US inherited them when we. invaded Iraq in 2003 and Dick Cheney and. Donald Rumsfeld took control of them. The again the MEK they're called the. Mujahadini Kulk and the Iranians are. saying look let's trade. We got bin. Laden, including Bin Laden's son and. including uh this guy Hamza who was. extremely dangerous al Qaeda terrorist. and we could have traded them but the. American u the neoconservatives and I I.

guess you know Rumsfeld and Cheney. themselves said nope we want we would. rather keep the mek so that we can use. them for operations inside Iran which. they did. In fact, my now wife uh wrote. a story breaking that story for Ross. story back then that Rumsfeld was using. the MEK for intelligence inside Iran. And a lot of times usually working as. cutouts for the Israelis nowadays. You. will hear um rumors about Iran that come. from the MEK. Now sometimes it's true. It's also known as the NCRI, the. National Council for Resistance in Iran.

is their front. And they'll, in fact, right before the current war, in the. last few months, like uh in June, probably in May, they put out a picture. of some buildings and said, "This is a. secret Iranian nuclear weapons site. We. just found it." And of course, it was. total propaganda. They do that all the. time. At one point they put out a stock. photo of a vault door from a vault door. company or a vault company and they said. behind this vault door that's where the.

secret nuclear weapons program is and. they do that kind of thing all the time. and so America kept the mek when they. could have traded them with the. Iranians. So just one more thing about. that is on the NSC. were were two people who were now a. married couple Flint Leverett and. Hillary Man Leverett and I've. interviewed both of them at length and. they have talked all about how willing. the Iranians were to negotiate with the. Americans on essentially anything at. that time and how essentially the Bush.

administration just refused to work for. them. And now think about, you know, we're fighting for them in Afghanistan, putting in power a coalition government. that includes the Hazaras, who are. Shiites and friends with Iran. And in. Iraq, we're putting their sock puppets. from Dawa and Skiri in power. We fought. a 8-year civil war for Iran's guys, but. refused to talk to them the whole time. Refused to negotiate with them in good. faith when George Bush is the. Ayatollah's Aaron boy in this thing and.

refuses to acknowledge it. likes to. pretend he's the emperor of the world or. whatever when he's serving their. interests and putting their guys in. power. And so that's why in at the end. of his presidency, they made him sign. the deal to get out by the end of 2011. And he said, "Well, can I have 64. bases?" And they said, "No." And he, "Well, can I 24 bases?" And they said, "No." Can I have any bases? And Nuriel. Maliki said, "Well, let me go talk to. the guys. I'm not real sure." Sorry, I.

talked to the guys. They said, "Beat it, scum. Don't let the door hitch in the. ass on the way out." Didn't even say. thank you for fighting a gigantic 8-year. civil war for them to exterminate their. Sunni enemies and put them in power and. scones them in power there. And so that. was the sofa that Bush had to agree to. in his last year in office in 2008 was. that we had to withdraw because he had. fought the war for his adversaries, not. our enemies, but America's regional. rivals in the Middle East, the Iranians.

and their Shiite axis now including. Baghdad and also of course then uh. Damascus and um Hezbollah and southern. Lebanon. This is when the king of Jordan. coined the term the Shiite crescent. it. was America who made it. And in fact, in. I think January of 2006, um the Sunni king of Saudi Arabia, uh. would have been King Abdullah.

read the riot act to Zme Khalil Zad and. said, "Listen, this is in the Wikileaks. He said, listen, it was always us and. you and Saddam against Iran. Now you've given Iraq to Iran on a. golden platter. So what are you going to do about it? And Khalilad says, "I know, your royal. majesty. I'm so sorry about that. We're. going to do everything that we can to. try to fix it." This is the birth of the. policy called the redirection where. America under Bush before Obama ever.

came to town where Bush accepted that he. had screwed up that he had scored like. in soccer an own goal for the other side. of the ledger the Shiite crescent. dominated by Thrron and that now he had. to make up for that by tilting toward. the Sunnis. uh you you'd be nice to sort of linger. and and understand. to what degree is the Iranian regime and. the Ayatollah. are good and bad for the Iranian people.

and then to what degree could they just. so we sort of clarify that uh and to. what degree could they have been. actual good collaborators with the. United States in fighting bin Laden? >> Yeah, good questions. So. I would not ally with anybody to kill. anybody. The time of September 11th, there were only 400 bin Laden hiding out. in Afghanistan. Any of the rest of their. associates around the Middle East could.

be arrested by police forces. Again, we could have negotiated over. them in the first place. And again, the. CIA and Delta Force could have finished. annihilating Bin Laden, Zawahi, and. their few hundred men in the White. Mountains in Nangar Province at the. Lion's Den hideout in December of 2001. There's your whole actual terror war. So, do we really need Iran to help us. other than what? Hand over a few. prisoners that they had captured who. were trying to hide out in their country. that they had put on house arrest. Yeah,

but that's that's all the help we. needed, right? We didn't have to have a. new alliance with them and we didn't. have to try to pretend that the. Ayatollah is a saint or that his. republic is a republic at all. Right? Um. if it's a republic, then how come he's. the supreme leader since 1989? Doesn't sound like a republic to me. But. at the same time, you want to talk about. flawed republics, we're sitting in one. And so um you know in this case lying us. into aggressive war after aggressive.

war. You can't say the same for him. unless you want to again blame him for. sending Ahmed Chalibi to lie to Richard. Pearl to lie to George W. Bush. Um you. know and so. the we can and in fact I'm skipping. ahead but in Iraq War II we fought with. them again against the Bin Laden. caliphate. And so here we fought really. three wars for Iran against the Taliban. and against Sunni Saddam and against. Baghdaddy, the bin Laden califf um in 14.

through 17 there. So why do we hate him, Lex, so much if we keep fighting wars. for them? You know, like I used to joke. with Patrick Coburn that like, man, they. better sign this nuclear deal with. Obama. They owe us a favor after all. that we've done for them lately. You. know, despite all of the hatred and. vitriol when you listen to the Ludnik, what you end up doing is empowering the. Ayatollah and his men. >> Well, what do you think about the attack.

of the United States on Iran that, as I. mentioned, had me so nervous there would. be another escalation into another. forever war? >> Yeah. >> What do you think about that situation? >> Wait, let's hold that because let's do. Syria first and the redirection, then. we'll do the Iran war. Okay. Can you. talk about uh redirection? Okay. So the. redirection was from the policy was. really I think invented in late '05 and. then sort of discussed and implemented. in beginning in 2006 and the article is. called the redirection by Seymour Hirs.

in the New Yorker magazine. So Hirsch uh. pardon me yes Hirs has an incredible. series from this whole year long. It. includes the coming wars, preparing the. battlefield, the redirection, and I. forget the fourth one, maybe the fifth. one. Had a bunch of great ones this. time. So, I might be combining these. articles a little bit here, but it's. along the same lines. Here's what you. need to understand about the. redirection. Okay? Oops. We screwed up. and we fought Iraq War II for the. Shiites. Now, to make up for that, we're.

tilting back toward the Sunnis. But what. does that mean? That means we're tilting back toward. Osama bin Laden and the suicide bomber. brigades. Saudis don't have an army. We. don't trust them with one probably. And. we're their army for the most part. And. so, how are we going to make it up to. the Israelis that we took their stupid. idiot advice and launched this war but. empowered their regional rivals? and how. are we going to make it up to the Saudis.

who tried to warn us for the most part I. think against it but we ignored their. advice and did it anyway and empowered. their regional rivals the Iranians and. so how are we going to fix this and how. we're going to fix this is since we put. Thrron up two pegs in Baghdad we're. going to take him down a peg in Damascus. and so. they started in Lebanon backing a group. called Fatah al-Islam bin Laden suicide. bomber former head chopper, lunatic, terrorist to fight against Husbala in.

Syria. Elizabeth Cheney, who was then. working in the State Department, later. known as Liz Cheney, Dick Cheny's. daughter, she had the job of working. with. the Muslim Brotherhood to create the. first major government in exile to try. to use to uh overthrow Bashar al-Assad. And I gotta tell you, man, we used to. joke on my show going back to I think. 2004 or 2005 would have been probably. the first time that I had asked Eric.

Margles, hey Eric, if they do cuz Eric. Margles was there just like Patrick, he. was there when Bashar al-Assad's father. Hafes al-Assad had crushed the Muslim. Brotherhood uprising in Hama in 1984 or. was it 82? and he crushed them and he. killed like 20,000 people in this. horrific thing to crush the Muslim. Brotherhood. Margles was there, knew all. about it, told me that story. And I says. to him, I says, "Well, if the neocons. get their way and they overthrow Bashar.

al-Assad, then what organized force is. there in the country after the botist. that could possibly take over other than. maybe the Muslim Brotherhood if you're. lucky?" And Marley says, "Yeah, exactly. Or it could be the Bin Laden could take. over." Now back to David Wormser in a. clean break and coping with crumbling. states. In coping with crumbling states, Wormser says we have to expedite the. chaotic collapse to Syria. Expedite the chaotic collapse to Syria.

so that we will control the outcome. which will be more to our liking. And he. says and he's acknowledging bin Laden. terrorism is what he's referring to here. in with the recent history at the time. he's writing this in 96. And he's saying now there's a lot of. talk about the dangers of. fundamentalism. Meaning, okay, we're going to get rid of. these secular botist regimes. There are. fundamentalist terrorist wackos running. around right now. He acknowledges that.

And he says, but America will just have. to find better allies against. fundamentalism than the botists. So now maybe some idiot could write that. as policy advice for the lood in 1996. maybe before the Cobalt towers, but then. they kill our airmen at Cobalt towers. And then they bomb the embassies. And. then they bomb the coal. And then they. hit us on September 11th. And then they.

lead as the vanguard of the Sunni. insurgency that killed 4,000 of our guys. in Iraq War. And now you're telling me that we still. better find better allies against the. Bin Laden than the Bais? That Bashar al-Assad is worse than Osama. bin Laden. Yes, that's what they're telling you. Because Assad is friends with Ayatollah. and Assad helps Ayatollah arm Hezbala.

and Israel as per the clean break. What's the clean break? It's a clean. break from Oslo. Forget Rabbine and. Perez. We are going to steal all that's. left of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. sooner or later, but we don't want to. have to worry about Hezbollah on our. northern flank. We need to neutralize. them somehow. So Syria, Worms wrote, was. the keystone in that arc of Iranian. power, which was true, but of course he. was the one who added Saddam Hussein to.

that same arc. Now they're saying, "Oops, we have to fix this." this and it. was the neoconservatives Elliot Abrams. and Zay Khalilzad who came to W Bush and. said sir we really screwed up here we. have to turn this thing around now and. Bush understood now it's funny you read. the article and it's all Connela Rice. and her people trying to explain that oh. you know what it's not really about. Sunnis and Shiites legs it's about. moderates and extremists. uh and the Both are the extremists in.

this you're saying right? Uh-huh. The the multi-ethnic secular. dictatorship in Syria, the last country. in the Middle East where you can get a. drink. Those are the extremists. and we got to support the bin Laden. insurgency against them. Now, this is. the reason that Barack Obama supported. al Qaeda in Syria. It's not cuz he was a. secret Muslim terrorist with an.

allegiance to bin Laden's goals. is that. he was a secret George W. Bush with. allegiance to the American foreign. policy establishment's goals, including. the neoconservatives and the Israel. lobby in this country, lude interests in. this country. And at that time, you. know, in Iraq War II, for the average person, they'd have had. to read Mirshimer in '07 to know or read. Justin Roando at anti-war.com to even. know what is a neocon, what's the.

difference between them and the rest of. the Republicans and what do they have. against Iraq so bad and what is that. agenda about? And what does it have to. do with the Lakood party in Israel? You. didn't think that. If you ask, you know, like Dave Chappelle and his skit, it's. all like he tried to kill my daddy kind. of stuff, right? Cuz people just don't. know this deeper layer to it. Well, in. Syria, it was just as obvious as it. could be. The war party in America is.

the Israel lobby, right? It is all. Zionists led by the Lakunix and the. neoconservatives, but on the so-called. liberal side too. People like Jaime. Rubin who had worked for Bill Clinton. wrote a giant thing in first it was a. secret memo that he wrote to Hillary. Clinton and they later published it as. an essay in Foreign Policy magazine. You. can pull it up right now if you want. Jamie Rubin um I'm pretty sure it's. 2011. If it's 12 I'm sorry, but I'm.

pretty sure it's 11 in Foreign Policy. magazine and I don't know, type in. Syria, Assad, and Israel. The reason we. have to do this is for Israel. The real. reason to intervene in Syria. There was. a funny anecdote about this one too, Lex, because I just happened to be. screwing around on Twitter that morning. that um Assange published the State. Department cables. Maybe it was that morning or soon after. that. And I'm virtually certain it was.

David Rothco who was then the editor of. foreign policy. And I can't remember who. else. one of his right-hand men at. foreign policy.com, the journal of uh. well, it's a journal, the foreign policy. journal. I forgot if there's a specific. think tank behind them. Anyway, and they freaked out and they attacked. Julian Assange and they said, "Aha, we. caught Wikileaks posting a fake document. cuz this is not a State Department.

document. This is an article that we ran. at foreign policy and you you obviously. copied and pasted it and are running it. at Wikileaks. And not only that, but. you've changed it. And then Assange. says, "No, you cooks. This is a memo. that somebody wrote to Hillary Clinton.". And apparently it was Jamie Rubin who. wrote it and then he submitted the same. essay to you to run at foreign policy. That's what happened. And the article is. about, "Madam Secretary, we got to. support Bin Laden Knight head chopper.

suicide bombers in the greatest act of. treason that you could possibly imagine. because Israel matters more than the. United States of America and the 3,000. killed on September 11th." That's why. I'm paraphrasing roughly. The real. reason to intervene in Syria, cutting. Iran's link to the Mediterranean Sea, is. a strategic price worth the risk. And. why? because Israel's foreign policy. interests, not those of the United. States of America. Now, what's the true. history of that war? They called it an. uprising. They called it a revolution.

We're skipping Libya here, but they. supported the bin Laden in Libya. Then. this was Hillary Clinton's bank shot to. take the Libyan Islamic fighting group. and Ansar al-Sharia, the same guys that. did the Benghazi attack of September 11, 2012, and send them on to Syria for the. next jihad. Now, in Libya, Gaddafi. wasn't a Shiite, and this wasn't about. that. Although the Israelis did hate him. and want him gone. Um, but in Syria, it. was all about this redirection policy. and continuing the redirection policy of.

trying to weaken Assad as essentially a. consolation prize after America screwed. up so bad by putting the Shiites in. power in Baghdad. And so, this is why we. have to do this. And there was a whole. chorus around that time. And if you. remember the first major fake sarin. attack of August 2013 in Ghouta, which. the war party tried to claim that Assad. did it in order to launch a war there, and they were trying to get us to do it. at that time. You know, first of all,

Barack Obama is the commander-in-chief. at this point. It's not the same as. George W. Bush and you know escalating. the Afghan war that was already going on. and we have to win it and that's the. consensus or whatever. That's kind of. one thing but Obama wants to start a new. war in Syria. Now the American right. said I don't think so and in fact on. this point all hail Steven Bannon. because it was Bannon and Breitbart that. led the campaign that said at that time. Breitbart was an incredible like much.

more important I think than it probably. is now but whatever. I don't I don't. know how to measure that, but at that. time they were extremely influential. And they led the charge. We do not want. to fight this war. And you might. remember this, Lex. You had Army. soldiers and Marines and Navy sailors. would be holding up pieces of paper in. still shots and in short video clips. that said, "I didn't join the Marines to. fight a civil war for al-Qaeda in. Syria." Remember that? And those were. going viral. It was a bunch of them.

>> What was this? 13. >> This is August of 13. And at this point, Barack Obama reaches out to Apac in the. Israel lobby and asks them to please do. everything you can to push this. Now, I. have to say, I don't know what was going. on there, but I actually thought that he. was being kind of sarcastic there. At. that point, there was nobody pushing for. war with Syria except the Israel lobby. And Obama seemed to be saying, "Hey. guys, if you want this, you need to. really stick your neck out for it." But.

the thing is they stuck their neck out. It's almost like um remember in um that. Will Frell movie where he goes to. college and he's running naked down the. street and he thinks everybody's behind. him but he's just wasted old school. Yeah. >> Yeah. It's like that. They're like, "Come on everybody. We're going to. Syria. We're running drunk down the. street." And then they look and nobody. else is coming with him. It's just the. Israel lobby. It's just as plain as day. Whose interest is this in? Nobody else. cares. Nobody else wants to do this. Nobody else believes the lies that oh.

the day that the chemical weapons. inspectors arrive, Assad gassed a bunch. of people. Huh? Give me a break, dude. This whole thing is so stupid. And then. so they couldn't do it. The Israel lobby. basically failed. And then importantly, this is the one good thing I'll ever say. in my life about James Clapper. And by. the way, this was a secret. They didn't. tell us this. We only found this out. later from uh Jeffrey Goldberg in the. Atlantic. Um Thomas R. Goldberg, the. former prison guard. uh and ruthless uh. abuser of Palestinian captives. Um he.

wrote in the Atlantic that James Clapper. told Barack Obama it's not a slam dunk. that Bashar al-Assad was behind the gas. attack and Dempsey who was then the. chairman Admiral was it general or. Admiral General Dempsey who was then the. chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. also gave a public statement who said I. don't know why we have to do this right. now and so at that point his own staff. was telling him Mr. president like, "Hey, if anybody asks me, I'm going to.

tell them that I told you that I can't. even prove that this is true.". >> Yeah. James Clapper was a director of. national intelligence, DNI, from August. 2010 to 2017, acting as the principal. intelligence adviser to President Barack. Obama and overseeing all US intelligence. agencies. >> He also is the guy who planned Operation. Storm, where they cleansed the Creina. and Eastern Slovenia in 1995 of Croatian. Serbs. He's also the guy who lied that.

Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass. destruction. He could prove it from the. satellite pictures. He's also the guy. that lied that Vladimir Putin helped. Saddam Hussein move those chemical. weapons to Syria is why we can't find. them. He's also the guy that lied that. the NSA is not all up in your phone. seizing all of your data, which is what. motivated the hero Edward Snowden to. leak and tell the truth. And he's also. the guy that lied that Donald Trump was. a blackmailed suborin agent of Vladimir. Putin helped who helped to usurp Hillary.

Clinton's rightful throne in a coup d'et. and take over this country. And of. course he's a paid analyst at CNN. And. if Donald Trump doesn't give him life in. prison, I'm going to really regret it a. lot. He deserves to suffer horribly. But. >> you did say a positive thing about him. >> I did say a positive thing about him, which was he told Barack Obama, "I'm not. going to vouch for this chemical weapons. lie here, buddy." No slam dunk. And that. was a reference to George Tennant. telling George Bush, "It's a slam dunk, sir." Ain't no one else want to know. what's funny about that is that George.

Tennant said, "Oh, that's not fair. They're throwing me under the bus." I. didn't say that Iraq's possession of. chemical weapons was a slam dunk. What I. said was, "You can convince the American people. with this story. That's the slam dunk.". In other words, I wasn't lying. I was. saying, "Mr. president, you'll be able. to get away with this lie. That's George. Tennant's defense of that statement. Anyway, so Clapper was saying, "Well,

this ain't a slam dunk. I won't stand by. it." By the way, as long as we're. talking about uh Jeffrey Goldberg in the. Atlantic, it may be the same article. Um, if you type in James Clapper and. slam dunk in Syria there, let me see if. I got this right. The Obama doctrine. That's the article. Okay. Not a slam dunk. Okay, I'm glad we. clarified this. It's a different. article. The article is called As. President I Don't Bluff. It's another.

interview of Obama by Jeffrey Goldberg. >> And um in this article is where Jeffrey. Goldberg Well, I'll tell you what. No, no, no. Get the This is just the. political. Do the Atlantic. Yeah. Obama. to Iran and Israel as president of the. United States. I don't bluff by Jeffrey. Goldberg. March 2nd, 2012. >> Okay, just so people understand, the. headline there is he is telling Jeffrey. Goldberg to please tell the Israelis. that they can trust me, that you trust.

me, that I promise, that I really, really, really, really, really, really. mean it, that if the Ayatollah breaks. out for a nuclear bomb, I will go to. war. I will not let him get one. Jeffrey, please tell them I'm not lying. about this. Okay, that's what where that. comes from. That's what he's doing. there. But now, will they show you the. whole thing or your payw wall here? Maybe if you put it in archive.is. Can. you copy and paste that and put it in. archive.is? Oh, you got to just sign in. Um, so now I see if you can controlf for.

classified. or clearance. Can we talk about Syria as. a strategic issue? Talk about it as a. humanitarian issue as well. But it would. seem to me that one way to weaken and. further isolate Iran is to remove or. help remove Iran's only Arab ally. Obama. Absolutely. Okay. This is why we want to weaken. Syria is a easier way to weaken Iran. And as they continue to talk about here,

he's saying that we are intervening. there and this is a way to uh weaken. Iran in this way. And then Goldberg. says, "Is there anything you could do to move. it faster?" And Obama, on a less funny. version of the joke about, "I could tell. you, but I'd have to kill you," he says, "Well, nothing that I can tell you. because your classified clearance isn't. good enough." In other words, and check. my date on this again. Was it 12 or 11? I forget. No, no, this would have been. 12. This is 12. Yeah, March 12th. Um,

and so he's saying, "It's already on, Jeffrey. We're doing it, buddy. What's. he doing? He's working with Britain and. France, Turkey, Israel, Saudi, and Qatar. to back Osama bin Laden's suicide bomber. brigades. In fact, worse, Abu Musab al- Zarqawi's. suicide bomber brigades. Remember, we. talked about how the local Iraqi Sunnis. had turned on Al Qaeda. It wasn't. America and the Shiites that defeated al. Qaeda in Iraq. It was the local Iraqi.

Sunnis that did so. And they're the ones. even who turned in Zarqawi to the. Americans to kill. I know the. interrogator. I I interviewed the. interrogator who without torture but by. being a nice guy got the information. Tell us where Zarawi is. We'll get him. And the guy told him and they got him. This is in the summer of 2006. They. killed him. And at that time al Qaeda in. Iraq then renamed itself the Islamic. State of Iraq. And we all got a good. chuckle out of it because you guys don't. control a single county anywhere in.

Iraq. there is no state. But at the same. time, we said, "Aha, though, look at. what they're talking about." Bin Laden's. policy always was just keep fighting. There's no point in creating a caliphate. as long as the American Empire is here. to erase it again. So, we fight the far. enemy. We fight a long-term strategy to. bog the empire down, bleed them to. bankruptcy, force them all the way out. Only then can we have our perfect. Islamic state we want to create. Sarawi.

says, "No, I want that now." This was. his doctrine. And they called their. group, Islamic State of Iraq, just about. I forget it was just before he died, I. believe it was just after he died, they. started calling themselves that, but. very clearly, you know, betraying their. intentions if they were to have the. ability to take over anything. That's. their goal. And they have these that. level of ambition. Now, it's very. important to note that in Iraq War II, when I say America bought that war as a.

civil war for the Shiite side against. the Sunnis, they didn't want the whole country. They. only wanted Shiastan. They only wanted. the land basically from Baghdad over to. Iran and down to Kuwait, down to Najaf, right? Um down to the Saudi border. They. didn't so much worry about the Sunni. Iraqis of Fallujah and Toree and Mosul. Uh, let them burn in the sun, man. Screw. them. Oh, I should have said this was a.

big part of why the Sunnis fought so. hard in the first place was because, remember, they're losing control of the. national government. Well, all the oil. is down in the south near Basra and it's. up in the north near Kirk Cook where. it's going to be controlled either by. the Shiites or by the Kurds now by the. Shiites. And so what does that mean for. the Sunnis? They have some oil, but it's. virtually all undeveloped oil and much. less of it in the predominantly Sunni. areas of the country. So when they lose. control of the national government, they. lose control over all the spoils, right?

And so they get nothing. And so the. Shiites idea is not by the Shiites I. mean the Supreme Islamic Council of. Abdul Aziz al-Hakim, the Da Party of. Nuriel Maliki and their murderous. forces. their idea. They're just as. chauvinistic as the Bin Laden. Screw you. guys, man. You can just burn in the sun. We'll do nothing for you. We got nothing. for you. But what did that mean in. practice? And again, the heroic Patrick. Coburn, it meant that all Western Iraq.

was wide open, no man's land, no. consolidated political authority. anywhere. Ongoing low-level Sunni. insurgency led by Bin Laden. Even when. the Americans leave by the end of 2011, they still leave a few CIA guys and. drones there. And as we joked on the. show in real time, Lex, me and Jason. Ditz from anti-war.com would joke that. we're still doing drone strikes in Iraq. after the withdrawal, but we still got. spies there. We're still doing drone. strikes. Why? Not that we're killing the.

Bin Ladites. We're aiming at their heels. cuz we're trying to chase them west into. Syria where they're heroes. In Syria, they're the moderate rebels. in Syria. They're just trying to fight for freedom. against the forces of evil bot this. tyranny. These are bin Laden's guys. These are Zarqawi's guys. It's bin. Laden's uh agent in uh his main agent in. in Iraq was a guy named Abu Muhammad. Alani. And then later, you know, his.

boss was this guy um Abu Bakr. al-Baghdadi who was apparently the. second leader after Zarqawi. Some say. that the first leader after Zarqawari. was actually made up that there was no. leader and they just sort of put this. persona out there. Well, Abu Bakr, all. Baghdaddy sure existed. These guys had. all been locked up in Kamuka together. and had, you know, kind of reorganized. al Qaeda in Iraq and when America left, they sprung them all loose. They're. ready to go. So, Baghdaddy tells Golani,

"Go to Syria." Galani, you know, as. Alshara, the self-appointed president of. Syria right now. That's Abu Muhammad Al. Jalani lets he join the jihad because he. was spire inspired by September 11th. He. told Frontline that you damn right he. fought and killed Americans in Mosul and. Ramani in Iraq war II. Then he went to. Syria to help lead the so-called. uprising revolution civil war in Syria.

No. Again, we have from 2011 that uh. Prince Bandar bin Sultan was emptying. Saudi jails and sending all the. jihadists off to Syria to fight. And. they were on the record. I have the. quotes where they say it's it's is it. Bandar? Bandar says we're sick and tired. of the Shiites and they're going to find. out whatever. I forgot the exact it's in. there. Um and then the other quote was. from uh a guy named Prince Turkey who.

said dash that is ISIS that is al Qaeda. in Iraq. dash is our answer to your support for. the dawa. get it. Why does why does Saudi Arabia in. conspiracy with Barack Obama and. Benjamin Netanyahu reserdawan and all. these guys why are they backing the bin. Laden in Syria? Because we put the Dawa. party in power in Baghdad. This is their.

answer to that where so this is again. the redirection. We empowered the. Shiites so much now we got to move to. limit them again. mostly because that's. what our allies want so badly, especially the Israelis and the Saudis. And so from 2011, we knew this is not a. revolution. This is not an uprising. I. don't care if there's footage of. protesters on TV or even if Bashar. al-Assad's forces are shooting them, which they were. I would note although.

it's proven by Charmaine Al- Narwani and. the great journalist William Vanwagen. and whose book on Syria I'm going to. publish any day now at the Libertarian. Institute. um who's written these massive long-. form studies on the origins of the Syria. war um for the Libertarian Institute and. shows how yes you would have peaceful. protest but then the bin Laden would be. there and would snipe cops. of course for the direct purpose of. provoking a reaction. It's exactly how.

they started the Kosovo war. They'd. assassinate police officers, forcing the. military to intervene to radicalize and. increase the whole situation was the. same thing that they were doing there. It's how they got the whole thing. started. And again, it's literally al. Qaeda in Iraq thus taking the lead at. that time. Now, remember hours ago when we talked about. truth, falsity, and our position? Well, our position was we're supporting.

moderate rebels. We're not supporting. Bin Laden. And in fact, the Bin Laden, if they're not backed by Assad just to. make the protesters look bad, then at. least they're only benefiting cuz we. just won't give enough support to the. moderates. That was our position. But. that was not true. From the very. beginning it was clear these guys are. lunatics man. There was a boy in 2000. early 13 a boy had a a fruit stand and.

one of the bin lad knights or just some. guy said hey give me a discount on this. orange and the kid said 13-year-old boy. I believe. He said I'm sorry I can't give. discounts. I wouldn't even give a discount to. Muhammad himself. And bin Laden standing with an earshot. said, "What did you just say?" Boom. And. shot the 13-year-old boy right in the.

face to death. >> That's one of the moderate rebels. >> That's the moderate rebels. And And what. were the moderate rebels the whole time? What? the ones who were quote unquote. modern, the free Syrian army, the guys. with shorter beards who would come and. talk to the Americans who would who. there pictures of them in tents that say. US aid on them and their job was just. receiving the money and the guns and. delivering to the bin Laden just like. with the war in Afghanistan in the 80s. or something. You know, Bandark can empty his jails.

and whatever, but for the most part, like these guys are volunteers. There's. not an organized state army on the. ground that's like conscripted them and. controls them to that degree. So who's. out there fighting? The guys who are. fighting are the ones who don't mind. dying. The ones who are absolutely the. most committed to this revolution. And. we know who they are. They're bin Laden. and Zawahari and Zarqawi's guys. al. Qaeda in Iraq in Syria going at that. time by the name Jabat al-Nusra which.

I'm told roughly translates from. association of assistance or helpers and. that they're al Qaeda in Iraq in Syria. the same guys that were the vanguard of. the Sunni insurgency in Iraq War II are. now the vanguard of the Sunni insurgency. in Syria and while there's just one line. on a map between them we're still on the. side of the Shiites in Iraq but we're on. the side of the Sunni in Syria. Now, this goes on for 2 years and you have. bin Laden from all over the place, including Chetchins and Chinese.

weaggguers and people from all over. everywhere coming to join the jihad, just like in Iraq War too, Egyptians and. Libyans and whoever come to join the. thing. And by. um the late spring, early summer of. 2013, you now have a split between Baghdaddy, who's now also come to Syria, sorry, from your point of view, this way, into. Syria. And now Baghdaddy and Galani, the. leaders of al-Qaeda in Iraq and Syria.

split. And it's a fight over control and. over really over oil wealth and who. controls the their gangster spoils or a. bunch of terrorists but also over. doctrine too. Baghdaddy is more like a. zarqawiite. and Baghdaddy is saying I want my. caliphate now against the advice of Iman. Alawahari who is now the surviving. leader of al-Qaeda in Iraq after bin. Laden was killed in May of 2011.

Zahari is the one who said, "No, we. should fight the far enemy. Don't create. a state now because you won't be able to. hold on to it. Just keep fighting." And. he sent an emissary uh who had been an. original veteran of the Afghan war named. Alsuri to come and negotiate between. Baghdaddy and Galani. Baghdaddy killed. the guy and declared a state in eastern. Syria. Now at this time Assad has to. pull his forces back from the east and.

consolidate. All the population centers. other than Raqqa. All the other big. population centers are in the west of. the country. Hama Aleppo and Damascus. and he has to try to protect these. areas. And so he ends up being forced to. leave eastern Syria basically wide open. So by June of 2013, Baghdaddy splits. from Golani and creates ISIS, the. Islamic State of Iraq and Syria or Iraq. and the Levant or you know whatever they.

called it in in Arabic. The acronym is. pronounced dash d aes. uh e s. Um, and so when we say ISIS, ISIL, the Islamic State, the Caliphate. or Dash, that's all the same thing. That's al Qaeda in Iraq, went to Syria, consolidated eastern Syria. Now, that's. in June of 13. 6 months later, they. hoist the black flag over Falluguja.

And at anti-war.com, we're freaking out. And I've been saying on my show this. whole time, Western Iraq is wide open. Patrick Coburn says Western Iraq is wide. open. Red alert, man. This is a problem. here. We're backing these guys. There's. nobody seems to think about the next. stage of this conflict. I remember even. Michael Shyer said on my show, I think. the big problem right now is Boo Haram. And I'm like, uh, excuse me. We're. backing the bin lanite caliphate in.

eastern Syria and Western Iraq is wide. open for the taking. And you can go back. and check my archives from especially. the first half of 2014 where I'm. interviewing even the despicable. Jonathan Lande and all kinds of anyone. that I know who knows anything about the. Bin Laden. I'm interviewing them mostly. so I can browbe them and tell them I on. the ball everybody. This is what. matters, right? This is the most. important crisis that could possibly be. going on. And we know now that Mike.

Flynn was the head of the DIA at the. time. And he, we know from Seymour. Hearse, there's an article called. Military to Military in the London. Review of Books about how Mike Flynn was. heroically insubordinate and was giving. secret intelligence to the Germans to. give to Assad to use to kill the Bin. Laden, to kill the CIA's terrorists on. the ground there. And that's what got. him fired from the DIA. And now Mike. Flynn is a a Iran hawk. He hates the. Ayatollah and the Shiites and that whole. thing is a absolutely pro-Israel Zionist.

guy 100%. But his point of view was, well, let's just bomb Thrron. Just cuz I. hate the Shiites doesn't mean I want to. back Osama bin Laden's suicide bomber. head chopper brigades against their. friend in Syria. What the hell is this? It's crazy. Same thing for Tulsi. Gabbard. By the way, the most. controversial thing about this woman. supposedly her entire career somehow she. was a toad of Assad is what um Bari.

Weiss told Joe Rogan and he asked her. what's a toad and she said I don't know. and he said how do you spell it and she. said with a Y and had no idea even to. spell the word that she was trying to. smear Tulsi Gabbard as some kind of. agent of Bashar al-Assad. Tulsi Gabbard, who at that time was a major, later. promoted to captain in the Army National. Guard, who I believe only left the. National Guard to become director of. National Intelligence. This American. military officer, right? Oh, yeah. I'm. so sure she's such a traitor to this.

country. Give me a break. They keep. promoting her. She may even still be in. the National Guard. I'm not sure if that. how that works when you're the DNI. But. anyway, Tulsi Gabber never said that Bashar. Assal is a good man. She never said he's. a hero. She never said America should. all lie with him. She never said. anything like that. What she said was. Assad is less worse than his enemies. America is backing al Qaeda. Now, if you. know anything about Tulsi Gabbert, she.

has never been, is not, and has never. been against the war on terrorism. In. fact, when she was running for. president, she put out statements. defining al Qaeda so broadly, she said. hundreds of groups are linked to al. Qaeda in the world and that she's. willing to fight them. >> Okay? She is a overtheline to unreason. hawk on killing bin Laden. Okay? >> But she and and by the way, why Lex?

Because she fought in Iraq War II. not. fought, but she was in Iraq war in a. medical unit at Balad Air Base north of. Baghdad for like a year. And I've never. heard her talk about this part of it, but it is clear. There's no question. it's impossible otherwise. She saw our. guys screaming and dying in front of. her, right? Over and over and over. again. Okay, so that's why she has that. gray streak in her hair like Nancy from. Nightmare on Elm Street is because of.

that. So now the Democrats are saying, "Forget what you know about the shirts. and skins, lady. We're on the skin side. now. We like Al Qaeda now." Now Lex, like. quite frankly, like every other idiot in. Washington DC apparently could not have. told you the difference. But Tulsi Gabbard could. Tulsi Gabbard knew who was who and she. knew that Assad's enemies are al Qaeda.

in Iraq in Syria and you couldn't have. tortured her into switching sides in. that war, right? It doesn't mean that. she's soft on Iran, but it means that. she wants bin Laden's dead dead and. she's supposed to be siding with them. now. And we're all supposed to be. encouraging them to overthrow this. secular dictator who's is who protects. and backs the Christians, the Shiites, the Drews, and even and somebody argued. with me the other day in a YouTube. comment somewhere I saw about cuz I had.

said the majority of Sunnis backed him. too. I think that that's true and. certainly it was true of the middle. class in Aleppo and it was certainly the. fact that the Syrian Arab army was. always majority Sunni Arab serving that. secular government. Just cuz they were. Sunnis didn't mean that they were bin. Laden. These, you know, crazy techury. salafy whatever ideology and and. especially I call them bin Laden because. it ain't just that they're Salafies cuz. there are innumerable I don't know.

hundreds of thousands or millions even. of Salafies and Wahhabis in this world. who are quietists. They don't have. politics. Their politics are your king. is your king cuz God made it that way. You're not questioning that, are you? I. didn't think so. We used to have that. tradition in the west, the divine right. of kings and that kind of thing. If. you're a good Muslim to a great many. Muslim people, never mind their. leadership, but I mean people out in the. world. and it it depends on the sect and the. region and everything, but the super.

majority of them quite apparently are. quietists. Their job is not to question. the civil authority. Their job is to do. what civil authority says. That's why. they're the civil authority. That's how. most people feel about their governments. anyway, right? For what's the bin. Laden's problem was he was political and. he had these political goals for this. earthly realm where we exist today. And. so he really was um Loretta Napoleon, the great Italian journalist, compared. him very much to like a Leninist where.

he's trying to overthrow this world and. and have things the way that he wants it. to be in a way that even again radical. and fundamentalist Muslims usually don't. believe in and usually in fact the. studies have shown it's rad it's. amateurs who are actually kind of new at. Islam and don't know that much about it. who tend to be the more fanatical and. the more violent. whereas people who. actually know more about it will say uh. actually as you better not do that and.

that kind of thing right um and I cite. all the studies in fool's air and I have. the footnotes in fool's eron uh showing. that directly and including some of the. 9/11 hijackers including the bulk of the. fighters for the Islamic State caliphate. they're just regular Iraqis who are. conscripted and thing fighting for ISIS. but that didn't make them even. necessarily that political much less. motivated by simply theology to behave. in these ways. You know what I mean? >> Sure. >> Uh if just briefly. >> because you brought Tulsy up, why do you.

you think I I had a chance to have. multiple conversations with her. Why do. you think she was smeared so much on. this topic and other topics? Why did she. piss off? >> The first thing was this. She absolutely. just knew better and was immovable like. Stonewall Jackson on this issue. you're. not going to be able to convince her. these are moderate rebels. Those lies. don't work here. So now that put her. severely on the outside of the consensus. and with authority, she actually knew.

what she was talking about. That was her. problem and that was their problem with. her. They couldn't fix that. And then of. course she even though they loved her, oh man, they groomed her. People forget. when she first came in, she's pretty, she's intelligent. She's in the. military. She fought in Iraq or, you. know, is a quoteunquote combat vet. because even though she wasn't pulling. triggers there, she was shelled while at. Camp Balad. So, she's earned her stripes. as an official combat veteran in that.

sense. And she's a woman and she's a. Democrat and this is everything that. they wanted. But then she endorsed. Bernie Sanders. >> Oh yeah. >> And then they went for full jihad and. never forgive her for that. And so that. was her. >> Hillary Clinton went after her. Is that. what happened? Trying to remember. and. Hillary Clinton tried to smear her with. Russia gate. The pathetic uh diseased. dying windbag Robert Windram from uh NBC. News attempted to smear her as well as. he attempted to smear my colleague and.

editor and friend Hunter Durens as part. of the Russia gate hoax. This absolutely. ludicrous reporting. Have you ever heard. of anything that Robert Windram ever. reported in your life? Can you think of. anything where you go, "Oh, Robert. Windram, he's the guy that did this.". No. He will only be known when he dies, which will be soon, as a disgrace to. humanity and to his profession for his. disgusting and despicable lies against. Tulsi Gabbard, against Jill Stein, and. against Hunter Dorencis. May he burn in. hell. So anyway, and his entire NBC news. organization, too. And that's why they.

hated her. It's cuz she told the truth. Yeah, it's sad. It's sad that people. like that, like we spoke about this with. Ron Paul. Well, this is different. obviously different humans, different. walks of life and so on, but there's. there's like uh there's certain people. that just have this authenticity. Sure. >> And agree with them or disagree. There's. like this is like a strong this is a. really interesting person. >> And actually for for a long time, Bernie. Sanders was that also. And it's like and. there's something about the system that. wants to destroy those kinds of folks or. at least suffocate the authenticity in. that person. >> Yeah.

>> And to make them conform. I wouldn't I. wouldn't give him as much credit as the. two of them, but but Ron is in a class. by himself. Of course, I I guess you. could say that they're comparable. because I disagree with her and pretty. severely enough on enough things that. but on the other hand, I think Bernie. Sanders is sometimes disingenuous in a. way that I don't find her to be. Um, without getting too far into that, but. anyway, you're right though that you. know, you can see the people who are. outside the norm usually and are treated. as the outcasts up there. if they're. anywhere near the halls of power up.

there, they're the ones usually who are. telling the truth about things and are. getting things right. Okay. So, so now. let's fast forward now. So, so as I. said, in January of 14, they hoist the. black flag over Falluguja. And. we at anti-war.com, etc., are freaking. out over this. Oh, and I was going to. say about Mike Flynn. Mike Flynn was the. head of the DIA that put out a report, a. secret report that's now published. Judicial Watch. got it. And the great. Brad Hoff wrote about it at uh his great.

blog uh Leavant report. People can find. it. And what happened was. the DIA put out a report saying our. allies are backing bin Laden terrorists. in Syria. Their goal is to create a. solopist principal principality in. eastern Syria. And there is a real. danger that this could blow back into. western Iraq and al Qaeda in Iraq could. return to their old haunts in Mosul and. Rammani. And he warned that in the.

summer of 2012. Okay. Then they just short of a year. later they consolidate a state in. eastern Syria just as he said, just as I. said. Again, you can check the records. All my all 6,100 and something of my. interviews are at scottwarton.org if. anyone ever wants to see whether I was. good on this back when I claim I was. Um. and then um. Obama was asked, "Mr. President, what.

about the black flag being hoisted over. Falluguja?" And Obama, this is Vanity. Fair magazine, and he tells him, "Listen, just because the junior varsity. puts on a Kobe Bryant jersey doesn't. make them the Lakers, right? So this idiot, I'm sorry, excuse. me for a moment, but don't you like to. somehow take the slightest comfort in. the fact that like at least Barack Obama. can read, at least he's like the. slightest bit maybe interested in what.

he's doing compared to W. Bush or Trump. who are clearly just winging it. And W. Bush just forget it. Bill Clinton, of. course, they would say he would know. more about any subject than his. briefers. and they better be on topic. cuz he read six books about it and he's. a horrible child killer. But that's. still true about him that he's a. brilliant guy or at least a brilliant. consumer of data and and in in trying to. form his policies. He wanted to be in. charge and know as much as he could. How. could Barack Obama lex not know who al.

Qaeda in Iraq is? How could he think. that ISIS is the junior varsity? These guys are the vanguard of the Sunni. insurgency that killed 4,000 out of the. 4,500 of our guys that died in Iraq war. These are the Zarqawiites. They're worse. than Bin Laden. They are. Patrick Coburn said they're the Islamist. Camir Rouge, right? Like Pulp Pot and.

the Communists, the most insane lunatics. to ever be armed with weapons before, right? nutcases. Berserkers. This is the Junior Varsity, the suicide. bomber brigade, the most dangerous one. that's ever been created in history. And. 6 months later, they rolled right into. Mosul. And this is the picture you still. have in your head of that long trying, that long train of Toyota Helix pickup.

trucks rolling into Mosul with their. headlights on and all the jihadis in the. back of the trucks with their rifles. And just as Patrick Coburn and I had. predicted, the Shiite Iraqi army that. had hardly any interest whatsoever in. ruling Mosul or Toree or Fallujah turned. tail and ran and the Islamic State. caliphate then conquered all of Western. Iraq from 2014. They took um Mosul to. Cree. It took them a little while, but. they took Ramani in 15. And they took. Fallujah right away and they created an.

in area land mass the size of Great. Britain with a standing army of at its. highest about 250 to 300,000 men if you. take if you look at their troop strength. in various places during that time. And. then what did Obama do? This is in Oh. man, you know what? We should watch this. clip, dude. Let's pipe this in here. Speaking of Jonah Goldberg, type in Orin. O R E N Orin Sunnis and it's going to. come right up as your first YouTube.

link. It's going to automatically launch. right there. There it is right there. Sunnis versus Shiites and the lesser of. two evils. And I actually met the guy. who asked the question here came up to. me at a thing and said, "Hey, I'm the. guy that asked the question at that. thing." So kudos to you, buddy. Thank. you. Lex Freeman, let's watch this clip. and trip out. doesn't stay in there for another couple. more weeks. What What do you think your. country is doing in order to protect. your interest? >> Pause one sec. Did I mention now this is.

in the middle of June 2014? Okay. They sacked Mosul and Abu Bakr. Albaghdaddy got up there at the Mosul. Grand Mosque like a cross between Bonito. Mussolini and Osama bin Laden and. declared himself the divinely appointed. califf Ibraim, ruler of the Islamic. State Caliphate. This is two weeks later. Okay, hit the. button. >> How are you working to align with other.

partners? All right, keep in mind I. don't speak for the government anymore. I'm just speaking for me. >> Not true. Wait, pause it again. He gave. an interview to the Jerusalem Post where. he said these exact same things while he. was still Netanyahu's ambassador to the. United States. And this is treason. This. man was born in the United States of. America. Okay, go ahead. >> And what I'm going to say is is is harsh. and perhaps a little edgy, but if we have to choose the lesser of. evils here, the lesser evil is the. Sunnis over the Shiit for the reason for. me. >> Okay, it's a lesser evil.

>> It's an evil, believe me, it's terribly. evil. Again, they had just taken out 7. to 800 former Iraqi soldiers and shot. them in a field. But who are they who. are they fighting against? They're. fighting against the against the proxy. with Iran that's complicit in the murder. of 160,000 people in Syria. You can. just, you know, do the math. And again, one side is armed with suicide bombers. and rockets. The other side has access. to military nuclear capabilities. So. from Israel's perspective, um, you know, if someone's got to if if.

there's got to be an evil that's going. to prevail, you know, let let the the. Sunni evil prevail. And I, again, I'm. speaking entirely for myself. >> No, he just said from Israel's. perspective, from the Netanyahu regime's. perspective is exactly what he meant. And it's fine because we have plenty of. MSAD and military officers echoing those. exact same statements. Even Thomas L. Friedman says, "We shouldn't defeat the. Islamic State yet. They're taxing the. Shiites." Okay, there's no question of. what he meant there. And by the way, is. he talking about the mythical moderates, the free Syrian army? No, he's not. How.

do we know that? Cuz he did just say. Sunnis. But he also said we just saw. them take 1,700. Iraqi, he says, soldiers, but it was air. force cadets at Camp Spicher and. massacred them in the field. Iraqi. Shiites. That was ISIS that did that. just a week ago. When he's saying this, he's not talking about the mythical. moderates. He's saying the Sunni evil, let the Sunni evil prevail. He's talking. about Baghdaddy's bin Laden caliphate.

Because, and what are his two excuses? That Assad is responsible for every. single death in the war when all he's. doing is defending his state from. foreign invasion by foreign backed. superpower backed bin Laden suicide. bomber. He just said suicide bomber. mercenaries, right? But no, Assad's. responsible for every single one of the. deaths. And then he lies again outright. and says, "And Iran has military nuclear. technology," implying that somehow the.

Ayatollah has a bomb and he's going to. give one to Assad or to Hezbala. And so. that's why we need to back al Qaeda in. Syria. Both of which are of course. complete and total hoaxes. And again, he. admitted in the middle of that after. lying and saying he's only speaking for. himself, he accidentally said from. Israel's perspective, he also said the. same thing again in an interview with. the Jerusalem Post either right before. he left or right after he left being the.

ambassador said the exact same thing. And he's clearly reflecting Benjamin. Netanyahu's view here. There's no. question about that. And I have in. enough already I have an entire section. called Israel's role that showed how. they were giving direct aid and comfort. to the bin Laden um uh by way of the. Golan Heights. And there was even at one. point quite famously there was an attack. by local uh Drews on the Golan Heights. kidnapped prisoners of the Israelis. basically um who attacked an Israeli.

ambulance that was shipping bin Laden. back to the front because the bin Laden. had been killing Syrian Drews their. brethren and so they attacked this. ambulance and it became kind of a. controversy. It also was controver. controversy when ISIS, not even Nusra or. Jhal Islam or Ral Al Sham or one of. these other groups. Actually, ISIS. accidentally hit Israel with a rocket. and immediately apologized. Mhm. Very sorry about that. We like you guys. No offense. Forget that. You can read.

Let's look at this. As long as we're on. this, I'm having so much fun. Type in. foreign affairs. and accepting al Qaeda. There you go. The enemy of the United. States enemy. And just in case you're. confused, with a nice big picture of. Osama bin Laden and Iman Zawahheri on. the top. And the article is about how. we're supposed to hate the Shiites more. now. cuz that's what our allies want.

regardless of who killed all those. Americans in New York City. They ran another one. Type it in. The. good and bad of Aar al-S sham. This is from Brookings. The good and bad. of Syria. Aar al- Sham. Yep. It's by. that uh traitor Michael Duran. and Clint Watts. Who's Clint Watts? He's. the guy, the former FBI agent who was. behind Hamilton 68 that lied and said.

that you and all your friends are all. Russian bots and that you ought to be. censored right off of Twitter. That's. who Clint Watts is. He's a damned liar. And he later admitted to BuzzFeed, "Oh, I don't really know about that whole bot. thing. He was the guy who did it working. for Bill Crystal. They created the. Alliance for Securing Democracy." And it. was Clint Watts who lied that whole and. there were hundreds and hundreds and. hundreds and hundreds of stories. claiming that Russian bots were behind. it every time anything good ever. happened on Twitter during that era. That's who Clint Watts is. And then they.

say, "What's Did you click the thing? Page up just a sec. What's the by line. here? the good and bad of Aar al- Sham. Oh, they deleted it. In the foreign. affairs version, the subhead is an al. Qaeda linked group worth defending. >> Yeah. I mean, it also says the al Qaeda. of yesterday is gone. So, it's changing. the story. >> They're good guys now, man. They kill. Shiites for us now. >> Yeah, they killed Serbs for us. We. really liked it when they were helping. kick in Serb skulls. Um,

well, just to wrap that up, Obama. launched a war. He waited a couple of. months to try to push out Maliki and. then he launched Iraq War 3 to destroy. the caliphate again. In this time, in. this case, directly on the side of the. Iranians, you had Iranians on the. ground, Kuds force on the ground running. the Iraqi Shiite militias, fighting for. Toree, liberating Toree from the bin. Laden with America flying air cover for. them. At this time, John McCain. complained, "We're flying as Iran's air. force in Iraq, but we're flying as.

Iran's air force against the bin Laden. caliphate that McCain had helped build. up to spite Iran for accepting our. Christmas gift of fighting Iraq war for. them." So, it was all John McCain's. fault when he complained that. And then. there's a a guy named Michael Horton, no. relation to me, but who is from the. Jamestown Foundation and a terrorism. expert. He says, "Yeah, John McCain. complains that we're flying as Iran's. air force in Iraq." Well, we're flying. as al-Qaeda's air force in Yemen because. this was at the time that Obama switched.

sides in the Yemen war where America was. giving intelligence to the Houthis. Wall. Street Journal January 2012 uh 2015 and. Al Monitor by Barbara Slavven from the. Atlantic Council uh January 2015. America's passing intelligence. Lloyd. Austin, Obama's, I mean, pardon me, Biden's later secretary of defense was. the head of Central Command. He's. passing intelligence to the Shiite. Houthies to use to kill al Qaeda in the. Arabian Peninsula. Our enemies, the ones. who tried to blow up the plane over.

Detroit on Christmas Day 2009 with the. underpants bomb. The guys who uh did the. horrific attacks in Nice and in Paris, France, the Charlie Hebdo and the Eagles. of Death Metal concert. They attacked a. kosher grocery store in uh France and a. uh a Jewish museum in Brussels. This was. the first I think uh ISIS in Syria. attack uh was at a Holocaust uh museum. in in uh Brussels. So that blowback was.

coming all all way right away. But. anyway, AQAP in Yemen, they were like. real ass al Qaeda guys and they were. coming for us. They weren't just like, "Oh, al-Shabaab in Syria, right? These. guys were real enemies. And Obama's. willing to turn right around. And. because the new deputy crown prince of. Saudi Arabia, Muhammad bin Salman, wanted a promotion. He was the defense. minister. He's the brand new 29 years. old defense minister and deputy crown. prince. He wants to make a political.

move. So he launches a war in Yemen. against the new Houthi regime with. Obama's support so that he can use that. as a power play inside the royal family. This is when he arrests the crown prince. Muhammad bin Naif and um uh Talal and. all of those Saudi billionaires that got. marginalized and arrested in their all. their property stolen at that time in a. big move by MBS to make himself crown. prince and de facto king which he is. right now. And he did that in alliance. with Muhammad bin Zed from UAE. And they.

convinced Obama to do it. And it was an. absolutely genocidal war against the. civilian population of Yemen that whole. time. I'd hate to leave that out. I. guess we have to skip Somalia for let me. say about Somalia real quick. It's the. longest war in American history. George. W. Bush sent Jac there in December and. CIA in December of 01 and they never. left. We've been killing people in. Somalia ever since then. And the first. thing that they did was they took the. bad guy warlord from Blackhawk down in.

93 and they tried to put his son in. power. They built up his son. you bring. us the scalps of jihadis. And get this, according to the CIA. talking to the Washington Post, this is. their version, there were three, not 13, not 30, not 3,000, not three, nothing, three al Qaeda members, suspects wanted for questioning by the. FBI for their potential involvement in. the USS Cole attack and the Africa.

embassy's attack. That was the excuse. for this intervention. the potential. that there were three bin Laden in. Somalia. So, America started backing the. warlords against them. More people. started and whoever their other enemies. were, right? Whatever they want to do. The more that they fight, the more they. keep coming back to the CIA and saying, "Oh man, you wouldn't believe how many. enemies there are out there." And they. make matters worse and worse. And this. is at a time where people mock. libertarians for noticing that without a.

government, Somalia was thriving. They. had come from communism. Then they had a. civil war of 50 warlords versus each. other, but everyone was spent and nobody. won. And so they had essentially a. stateless country, but it was more or. less at peace and no one was powerful. enough to gangsterize everybody else. And so the ports at Kismeo and Mogadishu. were open with no tariffs. And they had. massive trade. And one of the best ways. to measure economic growth at that time. was in the expansion of the cell phone. industry, which was um more extensive in.

Somalia at that time than any other. place in Eastern Africa. And this was. under de facto accidental libertarian. capitalist anarchism, right? With no one. in charge. And libertarians noticed. that. And to this day, freaks and cooks. and especially liberal democrats like to. say, "Oh, if you like freedom so much, why don't you move to Somalia?" Well, excuse me, but George W. Bush, you know, freedom himself, has been destroying.

Somalia with the power of the most. powerful regime in the history of the. solar system this whole time since then. So only an American who knows nothing. about America's responsibility for. destroying that society could possibly. be ignorant and idiot enough to blame. libertarianism and freedom and liberty. and capitalism and and free trade among. property owners for what ails Somalia. USA the regime is what ruins Somalia,

our military, our CIA. And so by 2005, they formed their own little pseudo. government in response to American. intervention and aggression called the. Islamic Courts Union. W Bush then hired. the Ethiopians to invade to crush them. their historical Christian enemies. against this Muslim society um and hired. Ethiopia to invade and they did complete. with mass rapes and torture and want and.

murder and just absolute war crimes and. that was what led to the rise of. al-Shabaab. Al-Shabaab means the youth. or I've been told more accurately the. boys. And under the Islamic courts. union, it was a group of 13 different. groupings that came together. That's why. it was a union. And but who was in. charge? The elders, the uncles, the. imams, the grandfathers, the old men of. the village were the ones who were in.

charge of dispute resolution going on, right? But now once George Bush had. Ethiopia invade Christmas time 2006, well, guess who leads the insurgency? The boys. And that's why we've been. fighting uh al-Shabaab in Somalia since. 2006 because George W. Bush invented. them with his horrific satanic demonic. murderous war that he waged there from. 2001 through 2006. Then self-licking ice. cream cone. Oh look, we have a terrorist.

enemy we have to fight. In 2012, America. kicked them out of Kiso or the the. Kenyans did with American support. kicked them out of the port city of. Kismea where they had a black market. charcoal operation going financing their. efforts. And when they did that, it was. only then that they turned to the Saudis. and accepted a sack of gold coins to. declare themselves al Qaeda. 2012, 11 years after George Bush came to. Somalia, he succeeded,

he and his successor Obama succeeded in. turning them into bin Laden. Only then. the Americans killed the worst leader of. the bin Laden faction, a guy named God, they killed him in 2012 or 13. Oh, I. should have mentioned that the guys they. overthrew in Bush's last year in power, Connisa Rice made a deal with them that. they can actually be the government of. Somalia after all. Never mind our giant. war against your Islamic courts union. You can be the president, a guy named. Sharief, you can be the president after. all, but it has to be in the form of our.

our uh transitional federal government. that we've built for you. So once those. guys, their original enemies that they. waged this whole war to thwart, once. they went ahead and accepted them and. empowered them, al-Shabaab said, "You. guys are traitors and sellouts and kept. fighting." And by the way, um Obama. murdered men, women, and children with. drones. We had our nuclear submarines. firing cruise missiles at thatched huts. full of women and their daughters. Okay, that's what Barack Obama did. Made that.

thing nothing but worse and worse and. worse the whole time he was in there. When Donald Trump came in, this is. according to James Mattis. He complained. to James Mattis, his secretary of. defense, and said, "I want out of. Somalia. Why are we in Somalia? Where's. Somalia? What do I care about Somalia? Get me out of there." And Mattis said. two things. one, we're trying to prevent. a Times Square attack type attack. Well, the thing about that is the Times. Square attack was committed by a.

Pakistani American named Fisel Shazad. who was living the dream, man. He had an. advanced degree. He had a nice house and. a wife and a kid and a car and was doing. fine. And then he went home to Pakistan. on vacation and he saw the results of. one of Barack Obama's drone strikes that. killed a family there. And he. volunteered to sign up for the Pakistani. Taliban that had never done anything to. us. They had not targeted us at all. It. was the first time that they did. They.

recruited him, taught him how to make a. bomb, and then he went to Time Square. and tried to kill a bunch of innocent. people on I think it was a Friday night. or a Thursday night there on a and. luckily his bomb was just a dud and. didn't kill people. So, James Mattis is. causing Times Square attacks. He's not. preventing them. And then secondly, again, this is Mattis told the Post that. he told Trump, "You have no choice.". And that Trump said, "Okay." And then. not only that, because this was his. policy was, you know, the myth that.

America only lost Vietnam because Lyndon. Johnson tied one arm behind the. military's back and wouldn't let the. generals do the job because he's pouring. over the maps all day and and a penny. pinching and micromanaging the war. effort. Well, that's been a big myth. HW. Bush said, "I ain't doing that. General. Scorskoff, you do what you got to do. I'm not right." Donald Trump said the. same thing. Nobody's ever going to. accuse me of micromanaging the military. and preventing them from accomplishing. their goals. So to that end, from the. moment he took power in 17, he devolved.

decision-making authority as low down. the chain of command as he possibly. could, cut out all of Obama's lawyers. and whatever who were in the way and. second-guessing. and um and so he devolved command. responsibility. Oh, and then he also. changed the rules of engagement to make. uh to recategorize these sort of pseudo. war zones like Somalia and Yemen into. full-scale active war zones where now. the rules are less. And essentially he.

told James Mattis, you do everything. that you can and want to do within the. law. That's it. You go as far as you. possibly can on everything. >> Empowered the military. He empowered the. military greatly, especially when it. came to fighting bin Laden. I don't ever. want to hear somebody say that I didn't. kill enough people in Somalia and that's. why it didn't work. I told James Mattis, you do whatever you got to do in. Somalia. If they couldn't make it work, it still ain't my fault. Right? That was. the way that he played it and that was.

the way he did the same thing in. Afghanistan. He wanted out of. Afghanistan from the moment he came in. Instead, he escalated the war for four. years while he was negotiating with the. Taliban. killed another extra couple of. tens or hundreds of thousands of people. even in a massive air and drone war. especially in Nangahar and in Helmond. for you know almost his entire four. years in power um during that. >> Can we take that tangent and talk about. his second term how that changed and. first maybe a bathroom break? >> Yeah, sure. >> All right, we absolutely today must talk.

about Israel Palestine and the Iran war. But before that, can we uh uh wrap up uh. Somalia. and uh Iraq War II? >> Right. So, yeah, we'll get those out of. the way real quick. Just to say about. Somalia, it's been the status quo. I. have no new information for you other. than it's been the sock puppet. government failing to quell the. al-Shabaab based insurgency this whole. time. Bush bombed them, then Obama for. eight each, then Trump for four, then.

Biden for four, and now Trump in his. second term now has vastly increased the. strikes. His counterterrorism guy, Sebastian Gora, who's an idiot and a. hawk and couldn't tell you the. difference between this or that, but he. knows he wants to kill them all. And. he's one of these, you know, Fox News. blow hard, no nothing idiots that Trump. has hired and put in charge over there. And he's massively escalated the war. against al-Shabaab. But of course that. means blasting men, women, and children. to tiny pieces with high explosives and. that kind of thing. Um, and in fact, at.

one point, Trump even sent uh regular. troops there for training and then. pulled them back out again, I believe in. his first term. But this is something. that uh Dave Damp does a really good job. at covering this every day at. anti-war.com. Uh the the ongoing war, it. literally is America's longest war is. against Somalia since December 2001. without stopping. Um, and then on Iraq. War II. again, Obama finally launched it after. using the pressure and the threat of.

ISIS to force Maliki out temporarily. He's still not all the way gone. They. replaced him with a guy named Almati who. was from the Supreme Islamic Council. So. again, take your pick. Dawa or scary. Um, and then he launched the war in. 2014. It was a brutal war. Special. operations forces on the ground mostly. guiding air power to targets. They. absolutely just decimated the cities. that they liberated including Tree, Mosul, Ramani, Fallujah, especially. Mosul. Um, killed, you know, another.

many tens of thousands of people to. destroy the caliphate that they had. built. And when I say Iraq War 3, that. includes eastern Syria as well, because. they ended up going to Raqqa, which was. the capital. We call it eastern Syria. It's really sort of north central Syria, but it's relatively east where most of. the rest of the east is empty desert out. there. >> Can you actually break down Iraq war 1 2. 3 3.5 exactly where you dealing it. those? >> So Iraq war one is operation yellow.

ribbon desert storm the first Gulf War. 1991 January through February 1991. Iraq. war one and a half is from the end of. that all the way through W. Bush. >> That's Bill Clinton bombing him on. average every other day for 8 years. straight. >> Mhm. >> Um that's Iraq War 1 and a half. Then W. Bush comes in and he and the. neoconservatives. lie us into Iraq war. And that's the war. that we fought through 2008/11.

The worst of the fighting was over by. the end of '08. Uh we'd won the the war. for our adversaries by then and then. stayed and finally left by the end of. 2011. then were gone for about 2 years. Although, as I said, CIA was still doing. drone strikes there. So, we really. hadn't stopped bombing Iraq that whole. time. Um, and then they build up the. caliphate and launch Iraq War II in. August of 2014, which ends at the end. essentially of Trump's first year in.

power. 2017, maybe into the beginning of. 2018, is when they wrap up Iraq War II. And now is what I would call Iraq war 3. and a half, which is America again. embedded with the Shiite army, hunting. down and killing the last of the bin. Laden Sunni insurgency, which still pops. its head up from time to time here and. there. But of course it puts us our guys. right in range of Shiite militias that. operate sometimes independently and. sometimes under the control although.

maybe deniable control of Iran and. groups like Katib al-Hzbala which is. very closely linked to the BA brigade. I. say all, it's just Katib Hezbollah. Um. uh but they're very similar to the BA. brigade. Essentially, um adjuncts of the. official army, Shiite militias, they. call them the PMUs, the popular. mobilization units that once ISIS came. to Western Iraq, the Ayatollah Ali al-. Sistani.

called on all Shiites to rise up and. defend, you know, the new Iraqi Shiaan. from them and all that. So that's where. the PMUs, you know, really came into. existence. And then of course they have. their own incentive structures going on. and are probably pretty close in. relative power to the official Iraqi. army itself at this point and are very. much under I don't know complete control. but are very close to the Iranian goods. force revolutionary guard. Um so um.

I think you would say that Iraq war 3. and a half is what continues to this. day. The worry is that it'll turn into. Iraq War 4 and we're going to end up. turning around again and fighting. against the Shiites that we fought Iraq. War II and three for in connection to. what's going on. >> in alliance with Israel against Iran and. their friends. Right? That's the danger. That's what if we get to Iraq War 4, it. would be that. we started talking about Iran and then. you went to Somalia because we had to.

cover Somalia, >> right? And then I guess because we're. both just focused and a little bit. exhausted, forgot to talk about Iran. So, uh, Scott, one of the amazing things. about you is that you said, "Why don't. we just continue today?" And you came. back. Let's do this. Let's talk about the war. in Iran. >> Yeah. >> What's the right way to. >> punch it in? >> We'll punch it in. >> Yeah. So, here's the question that you. asked me that I never answered, which. was, well, so what is with Israel's.

hyperfocus on Iran then anyway? like. this obsession at this point. So, as we. talked about, it's kind of a distraction. for Rabbine in the first place. And. then, you know, the Lakood took. Rabbine's same demonization of Iran, but. without the compromise with the. Palestinians part, right? And that was. the Netanyahu doctrine. And I always. thought, well, not always, but you know, was an issue that potentially. it it seemed to make more sense for. Netanyahu to not really seek regime. change in Iran, to hawk it up against.

them, you know, at all times, keep. tensions high. But isn't Iran the basis. of trying to rally all the Gulf states. to come and be partners with Israel now. that like come on, we have to have a. united front against the Persians, especially since Netanyahu's men in. America convinced George W. Bush to go. to Baghdad and put Iran's best friends. in power there. And in fact, we didn't. talk all about the mechanics of the. thing, but we did talk a little bit. about the Yemen war. It was blowback. from Obama's CIA anti-al Qaeda war that.

through a few complicated steps as I. outlined in the book led to the rise of. the Houthis coming and taking over the. who are Shiite group from the north of. Yemen coming and taking over the capital. city of SA in 2015. As I said, America. was backing them for a little while. against al-Qaeda before Obama stabbed. them in the back and took Saudi and. al-Qaeda's side against the Houthis. But. this is another example of the increase. supposedly of Iranian power. Although. the Houthis are not nearly as close to. Iran as say for example Hezbala in.

southern Lebanon who you could I think. fairly characterize as as Iran's 51st. state right where in the case of the. Houthis in Yemen that's pretty. exaggerated most of the time and they. were under total blockade so all the. propaganda about Iran shipping them all. these weapons was exaggerated but anyway. so the Iranian Shiite crescent has been. empowered by American foreign policy and. by the way until last December we talked. about the caliphate and. war with Iran against the caliphate, right, Iraq War II to destroy it again.

Um, but then in Syria, that left Assad. far more dependent on Iran than ever. before and more dependent on Hezbala. than ever before. So, you could barely. characterize the dirty war of the Obama. years in Syria as having fully backfired. and not really accomplished anything. That is up until last November, December. when Al Qaeda broke out of the Idlib. province and sacked Damascus. That was a. major score for the Sunni side against. the Shiites. By the Sunni side, I mean.

America and Al Qaeda and Israel and. Turkey and Saudi and friends, right? So, as I say, it made sense for Netanyahu to. have an enemy in Iran to rally the Sunni. Arab states against. On the other hand, hey man, we're getting rid of the pal. from the point of view of Loot here. We're getting rid of the Palestinians at. least of the Gaza Strip. West Bank is. next. We got Hezbala completely. crippled. Their charismatic leader. Nasallah dead. We got Assad overthrown.

and replaced with friendly bin Laden in. Syria. Of course, the Shiites still. control Baghdad. There ain't no reverse. in that. But. Israel is essentially, you know, winning in many ways in the. war over there, at least in the short. term. And so, just like I was saying about Netanyahu's. speech before the UN, that this is the. new Middle East. Basically, I won. The. Netanyahu doctrine is we get everything. we want and without compromising with. the Palestinians. And then the last.

major enemy player on the board is Iran. And apparently they thought, you know. what, like having an incentive for these. Sunni kings to be friends of ours is one. thing, but actually just going ahead and. getting rid of them and turning Iran. into something like the chaos in Syria. where there's no central state in Iran. anymore at all and it's all just belooki. jihadis blowing up suicide bombs and and. you know Kurdish leftists and whatever. going on, you know, tearing the country.

apart is you know like the Odinan plan. Um, which I guess I'll explain that. There's a It's really funny, man. If you. read this, it's it's so ridiculous. Uh, it's ode d y i n o n. O dead yanan. There you go. Yanan plan. So, what it. is, the Yanan plan is an article. published in February 1982 in the Hebrew. journal Kunim entitled the strategy for. Israel in the 1980s. This article was.

penned by Oded Yinan, reputedly a former. adviser of Aran Shaon, a former senior. official with the Israeli Foreign. Ministry. >> Mhm. So, here's what the thing says. It. says, "Oh no, the Soviet communists are. sure to finish conquering the entire. world real soon, and poor little Israel. will stand alone against the one world. communist state," which of course is. exactly how it worked out, right? Said. the Soviets were gone by the end of the. decade. They didn't exist at all.

anymore. But that's like premise one. The Soviets are going to conquer. everything and poor little Israel is. going to be all alone. So the only way. we can secure our existence now will be. to smash every Arab state into waring. tribes where the worst armed enemy we. have is a coup shaking a rifle over his. head, right? And and waring tribes by. religious and and um whatever ethnic. sectarian divisions that they can help. to engineer to keep everybody else just. completely divided and weak. There's no. point in being friends with anyone. let's just be way more powerful than.

everyone because that's the darkness of. the world we face now even though the. premise is false that you know still was. the policy. Um along the lines of the. clean break too where it's a peace. through overwhelming strength rather. than friendly and and decent relations. with the neighboring states. So anyway. um like what's going on in Syria now is. like is there even really any such thing. as Syria now? The Turks have a big, you. know, chunk in the north. The Israelis. are already taking a major chunk in the.

south, including uh Mount Herman or. Hernon, I always say it wrong, right. outside of Damascus. And um and then you. got Bin Laden. Like what kind of real. state can they make there? It's going to. be, you know, this this guy Golani has. been to CIA finishing school, right? He. clearly is like or he's under control of. the Turks to a degree and has stopped. chopping off heads and doing suicide. attacks and bad public relations like. that. there's still a bunch of bin Laden. cooks. If he's really that tame, his own. men are getting get rid of him soon.

enough. Anyway, um so uh so you see like. you know in in far eastern northeastern. Syria you have the Kurds under the. protection sort of kind of the Americans. um but then so are their enemies the. Turks. Uh and then you have. you know the the um Alawites in the far. west of the country who've been you know. massacred in the thousands and you have. Christians who are at least threatened. that you know their their uh civil. status has changed under the new jihadi.

regime. There's uh fighting um between. the jihadis and the drews where people. are being lined up and shot and all. this. So in other words like there is no. Syria which is perfectly good with. Israel, right? that like if they could. do the same thing, I guess Jordan and. Egyp Egypt are tame enough, but they if. they could just wreck every state in the. region, I think uh well that would be. according to the Odinan plan and I think. that may have been their plan for Iran. Now Lex, they tweet out pictures and I. forget I'm sorry which official it was.

If it was the defense minister, I think it was the defense minister of. Israel. Tweet out a picture of him with. the son of the Sha Resa Palavi or the. grandson of the older Sha Resa Palavi uh. senior there as though like the plan was. we're going to parachute this guy in. when we launch this war. It's going to. be a regime change war. And the. Washington Post had a piece that said. the Israelis sent messages to all the. leading generals and told them, "If you. don't rise up and overthrow the. Ayatollah right now, we're going to kill.

your families.". And then they are hitting all these. regime targets, including police. stations and all this kind of stuff, command and control systems in the. military where the idea apparently was. hoped to get a regime change. They hoped. that it would be enough to weaken the. government and that some force would. come to power, which shows that probably. they're delusional. and listening to. cooks, you know, telling them that. things like parachuting a monarch back. into Persia could possibly work to be a,

you know, full-scale regime change. They. knew, we know that they knew, of course, that they would need America to finish. the war against the nuclear program, which they actually didn't, but at least. it would take America to hit Natans and. Fordo, these deeply buried nuclear. centrifuge facilities. So whether they. really hoped that they could get the. United States to go all the way and. follow through with a regime change, hunt down and kill the Ayatollah. I. mean, there was a news story that Donald. Trump told the Israelis, don't kill the. Ayatollah. Like, we all know where he. is, but don't do it. They claimed that.

I don't know that that's true, but that. was one of the stories that they put out. anyway was that America had made his. explicit choice to preserve the regime. Although, if you just kill the. Ayatollah, that doesn't necessarily. destroy the government, right? Somebody. killed our president. That doesn't mean. the whole government falls, right? the. Congress is still going to convene and. they're going to whatever have a new. guy, whatever. >> Well, didn't Trump explicitly post don't. kill the Ayatollah? I think he said we. know where he is. >> Yeah, I think he threatened him, but I. think they also put out a story saying. that he told the Israelis not to kill. him. But I think I think both things are.

right there. So, but then the point. being that to get a real regime change. in Tyrron means a real war in Iran. And. air dominance is one thing, but boots on. the ground standing around in Tyrron. telling mullers that they cannot convene. anymore or whatever is a whole different. ballgame, right? And and it's a thing. that for all the talk of war with Iran. over all of these, you know, last two. decades at least, nobody's talked about. we're going to send in some kind of. occupation force or do anything like.

that. But so that that's always been a. big part of the argument against the war. is that you start the war, you don't. really have a way to finish it, right? because in fact as we've already seen. that contrary to Trump's claims they did. not completely obliterate their. centrifuge capacity. Now they seem to. have inflicted some pretty heavy damage. on uh Fordo andor Natans although there. are conflicting reports and some say. that Natans was less damaged uh than. might have been. They did destroy. importantly the conversion facility at.

Isvahan. That's where you can take. uranium metal after you refine the ore, then you convert that to uranium. hexafflloride gas. That's what you spin. in the centrifuge cascades, then you. convert it back into metal. So without. that facility, you either have a bunch. of gas or you have a bunch of metal that. you can't enrich to another state, you. know, to a higher state. So um what do. you. >> or if you have a bunch of gas, you can't. convert it back into metal. So without. that facility, they have a setback. But. I don't think all their all their.

facilities are destroyed. And they've. already announced that they're not and. that they still reserve the right to. enrich uranium and that they're going to. and that they're not even going to talk. with us anymore until we recognize the. right to enrich uranium. Although they. do, and I'm not saying that this is. true. I don't know that this is true, but I'm saying it is true that they've. said this, that they are still bound by. the Ayatollah's fatwa of 2003 that bans, you know, reiterating the previous. Ayatollah's fatwa that bans the pursuit. of weapons of mass destruction. So. they're declaring that they have not.

broken out to a nuke are are calling. their bluff, which again it was always. an implied bluff. They never explicitly. said, "Don't you bomb us or we'll make. nukes, but that seemed to be the the. implied threat. They're they're a. threshold state. They have a latent. deterrent." Well, what happens if you. bomb it? Well, now we'll make nukes was. always the implied threat. Well, now. they're saying no. And that could be. that just because America inflicted so. much damage on their thing that they. they it's going to take them a while to. get up and running enough to even make a. credible breakout. I don't know. It. could also be that the Ayatollah has.

just said, "No, the principle of our. sovereign right to enrich uranium and. have a nuclear program for peaceful. purposes is the only thing that we're. insisting on. And we really, just like. we always said, don't want nukes anyway. And um but now that Trump one more. thing, now that Trump has accepted. Netanyahu's definition of any nuclear. program is a nuclear weapons program, well then if they keep enriching, then. we keep bombing. And Trump has. explicitly threatened that, right? So.

we're just on this ladder. They're not. going to give up enrichment. And Trump. is apparently so far never going to back. down on enrichment, which W Bush and. Obama had done. Like, ah, what are you. gonna do? They're never going to give up. enrichment. If we're going to be. reasonable and get a deal, we are going. to have to recognize their right to. enrich, which is actually in the. non-prololiferation treaty there, you. know, which they have signed, which is. America's treaty. >> Do you think the world is a more. dangerous place if uh Iran gets a.

nuclear weapon? >> Yeah. I don't want anybody having nukes. I hate to see the proliferation. I mean, in a way, nuclear weapons seem to make. states more responsible a lot of times, but you can't really count on that, right? You can say, >> "Yeah, they keep the peace." They do. keep the peace. Major powers don't want. to fight with hydrogen bombs. Come on. It's insane. It's beyond insane. It's. unthinkable. On the other hand, it's a. great bluff until it fails. And if it. fails, then you're talking about. devastation beyond imagination. Is that.

surprising to you? So sorry to once. again zoom out on human nature that the. mutual assured destruction has worked. up to this point seemingly effectively. >> It's just a blink of an eye. Right. And. the the Soviets got nukes in 46. >> Yeah. So. >> meaning in the full arc of human. history, it's a blink of an eye. >> That's right. Yeah. There's no. >> there's no like real base of statistics. to measure from, right? It's been a few. decades. Think of it like this. If I say. to you, "Look, man, here's how.

international security is going to work. for the next 275 years, okay? All the. major powers are going to have hydrogen. bombs and they're all going to hold them. at each other's capital city's heads in. a Mexican standoff permanently. and it's going to be great. And that's. how we're going to go forward for the. next, I don't know, 10 generations.". No, that it couldn't possibly work, could it? We're all going to die at some. point if that's the setup. And I'm not. advocating for a global state here. I'm. perfectly against that better than. anybody, but I'm just saying there's got.

to be a better way than the permanent. Hbomb Mexican standoff. And I'm not. advocating for unilateral disarmament. and surrender, but I am advocating for. multilateral disarmament. And Ronald. Reagan thought we could not Walter. Montdale. Ronald Reagan went to. Reichovic in ' 86 and he was a hair away. from making a deal with Macau Gorbachov. This is three years before the wall came. down in Berlin. Okay. They didn't know. that the Soviet Union was about to. cease. And hell, Soviet Union didn't.

cease to exist again until the end of. 91. They didn't know. Ronald Reagan didn't. know this is the end of the Soviet. Union. He knew it was the end of the. Cold War. Him and Gorbachoff were end in. the Cold War. And Reagan believed at. that point to some degree or another. I. can't speak exactly but they reportedly. believed he was on a mission from God. that he had the like destiny granted to. him mandated to him to abolish nuclear. weapons from the face of the earth and. he was a hair away from making that deal. with Mauy Gorbachov and the tragedy of.

it is that the deal fell apart because. of the completely fantastic and. ridiculous promise of the Star Wars. shield program where they were going to. have lasers in space to shoot down all. incoming ICBMs and all this and We're. talking 1986 technology, right? This is. a joke. There's no way in the world. they're going to do that. It would have. cost, you know, however many trillions. we didn't have and never worked anyway. And Reagan said, well, I promised the. American people that I would build one. But the whole thing is, man, if we're. getting rid of all the nuclear missiles, then you don't need one anyway, so it's.

okay. And then, by the way, they were. not counting on a magic wish to. implement it either. The plan always was. going to be America and the Soviet Union. would try to get our nuclear stockpiles. down to roughly rough parody with the. other nuclear weapon states. At that. time, France, Britain, Israel, and. China. India and Pakistan didn't have. nukes yet. South Africa only had a few. before they gave them up. And then once. we got down to about two or 30 hundred. each, then we see if we get down to 100. each. Then we see if we get down to 50.

each. Then we see if we can get down to. 10. Right? So it was not like, oh, Ronald Reagan turned into Jane Fonda, the commie hippie sellout trader who. wanted to just give away the store to. the enemy and all of a sudden became, you know, a naive believer in like. fantasies coming true. It was all like a. hard-headed realism that these machines. are too dangerous to let politicians. hold on to them over the long term. It's. the same conclusion that William Perry. and Henry Kissinger too at the end of. their lives, they formed a group called. Global Zero. George Schultz as well,

Reagan's Secretary of State, formed a. group called Global Zero about saying we. have to got to get rid of these weapons. And William Perry, he had been Clinton's. Secretary of Defense who had opposed. NATO expansion, almost resigned over it. and should have, but he wrote a book. about my life at the nuclear brink. And. he wrote about like you just don't. understand about these machines. Okay? Right. Talking about a hydrogen bomb. Like you just can't imagine what it. would be like to have Dallas wiped off. the face of the earth. that level of. devastation and and what that would mean.

for the survivors and the rest and and. having all of our cities wiped off the. face of the earth in an afternoon like. that. Everything our ancestors have. built for 3,000 years destroyed over. nothing could possibly be worth it. Nothing could be. There's so many. difficult questions here. Do you think. the world is stable and smart enough to. deal with a situation where somebody. drops one nuclear weapon? I don't I. that's the worry, right? And from all. the war games, once the nukes start. going off, they keep going off. We can't.

let them nuke us without nuking them. back. We have to do something, sir. And. then it just keeps going and going. The. Americans claimed that the Russians, and. I don't know the truth of this, could be. true, that the Russians have a doctrine. of escalate to deescalate. I think they. denied it, but in other words, they'll. go ahead and drop a nuke first and say, "See, that's how angry we are. You guys. better back down." And the Americans. immediately ran a war game and publicly. leaked it and said, "If the Russians. ever try to do that escalate to. deescalate stuff, no, we will nuke Barus.

and we will say, "Oh no, we're the ones. who are loco. Don't you mess with us. We. are escalating to deescalate. Now you. back down." So you see, then we all die. by 7:30, right? Is there a number, again. a difficult question, is there a number. of warheads that's low enough to where. cuz you said bring it down from 100 to. 50 to to 10. I don't know. I did have a. fun conversation one time with Lyall. Goldstein who's this brilliant uh all. kinds of nuclear war planner and and.

defense analyst. He used to be at the. Naval War College. And I was saying, "But come on, Ly. Like, what if we just. got them down to like a few low kiloton. type bombs or whatever." and he's going, "Yeah, no, we don't want to do that cuz. that makes them really much more. thinkable and usable. What you want to. do is have at least a certain minimum. number of multi- megaton city killer. bombs so that the capital cities remain. in jeopardy because that is the counter. incentive to the politicians going that. far. You need, forget the tactical, you.

need the strategic nukes to prevent war, right? And so all that makes sense if. you're a certain kind of egghehead. But. I'm just saying, man, I don't know. Even. that that the the bombs that they hit. Japan with are nothing compared to the. super, as they called it then, the. hydrogen fusion bombs where you're. talking high kilotons or low megat tons. I was wondering if you can comment on. some of the interesting interviews that. that are in hotter than the sun, another.

one of your books, hotter than the sun, time to abolish nuclear weapons. It is a. book by Scott Horton that features over. a decade of interviews with a wide array. of experts on this very topic on the. dangers posed by nuclear weapons, the. nuclear arms industrial complex and the. history, politics and future risks. surrounding nuclear proliferation. >> Yeah. >> Is there any some interesting interviews. you remember like insights? >> Yeah. Well, I mean the funny story about. that is a friend of mine just came to me. and goes, "Look what I did." and he. sends me a PDF of transcripts of all.

these interviews I've done about nuclear. weapons over 20 years. >> I didn't even ask him to do it or. anything. He just came to me. Yeah. >> And then so I was like, "Okay, well, I. want to delete a couple of these and I. want to add a couple more." And then we. just kind of ship shaped it. I stopped. writing Provoked for a minute to get. this out in 22. But when you like look. that as a piece of work, the transcripts. because sometimes it's like. >> you might be so busy. >> thinking about the current thing and. looking into the future that you forget. to look back at all the conversations.

you've had on this particular topic and. to to sort of start to extract some. deeper wisdom from it, you know. >> Well, the title of the book I you know I. had already done my first two books are. time to end the war in Afghanistan and. time to end the war on terrorism. So. this one's called time to abolish. nuclear weapons which I think really. puts people off and makes it sound like. oh just uni um unilateral surrender to. the chaoms or whatever kind of thing you. know um but that's not really what the. book is about right the book is. essentially about all aspects of nuclear. weapons America and Russia's nuclear.

arsenals past and present North Korea. Israel Iran India and Pakistan and you. know all their different nuclear weapons. programs Hiroshima Nagasaki all the. anti-uclear activists including like the. nuns who break into naval bases and bang. on ICBMs with a hammer and then go to. prison for 10 years. And there's a whole. like very proud tradition of essentially. like socialists uh like the Catholic. workers um who uh the Beran family. You. probably heard of of Father Brian, Daniel Beran, and uh I forgot his his uh.

brother's name. Um and Freda is his. daughter and um Mallister is his wife, the nun. And and these guys um. they go to prison all the time. Daniel. and Philip, that's right. They're a. peace activist, you know. Um Freda is. their daughter. She's a great one. And. so I have, you know, all that kind of. stuff. Um as I say, Hiroshima Nagasaki, why North Korea's nuclear weapons. program is all George W. Bush's fault, which you don't want to get me on that.

topic probably. Although I could do it. pretty quick, but we should do Iran. first at least before we forget. I mean. on on Iran and in general. Yeah. What. what are the things in the American. toolkit that should be used to minimize. the chance that states like Iran get a. nuclear weapon in the near future? >> Rob prom. send whoever is the secretary of state. of God, Marco Rubio, send somebody over. there. >> and just be cool. Yeah, we had look as I.

said before um Zabin Brazinski and. Alexander Hey, they wanted to normalize. relations with Iran in 1993. They said. we do business with these people. Dick. Cheney said we do business with these. people. You know, it's just the. attitude. All you have to say is like. this is a USA. We're number one. I ain't. afraid of no Ayatollah. Like we have all the power. So you're. telling me even though we have all the. power, we hold all the cards, there's.

nothing we can do to work it out with. these people. Come on. We still hold a. grudge over because they supported the. groups that did the Beirut attack in. 1983. Get out of here. Ronald Reagan was. selling them missiles a year or two. years after that through the Israelis. So come on. You know, you can't you're. not allowed to. Look, we we helped. Saddam Hussein gas their cities. our our. aircraft carriers shot down one of their. civilian airliners with almost 300. people on board. So should they forgive.

us for that and so that we can move. forward? Yes, they should. That was a. stupid thing that some idiots did, but. that was a long time ago and we we have. to live on this planet together. So what. are we going to do? You put those things. behind us and you move on. This is. business, man. And so that's what you. do. You just ignore the Israel lobby and. you just put Trump on a plane to Thrron. Look here, Ayatollah, I was talking with. my guys and we figured out this is what. we could probably agree on and here are. the issues still outstanding and let's. figure it out. And by the way, this is.

how Nixon and Kissinger did Mao. They. went over there and they agreed to be. friends first. Then they worked on all. the stipulations. >> And we should say, so the idea here is. basically talk to everyone but trust no. one. >> That's right. >> And so when we say friends, we mean. basic courtesy and diplomacy. Right. >> But don't doesn't mean you trust the. person. >> Think about the phrase Ronald Reagan's. phrase trust but verify. Well, what does. that mean? >> Don't trust. >> doesn't mean anything. It means don't. trust. It means be polite and verify.

That's what it means, right? It means. pretend like you're trusting because. that's how you get along in the world. But what but you verify. You send your. inspectors to make sure. That's all. And. you have an agreement to do so and it's. fine. And so, and quite honestly, like. look, man, the Ayatoll, if he wanted to. secretly try to break out and enrich up. to weapons, great and make a nuclear. weapon, he could have. You know, I'm. sure you've heard this propaganda. numerous places on TV. Um, Marco Rubio. said this numerous times. Uh, Mike Baker.

is a regular podcast guest around here. somewhere and was saying this kind of. thing uh a week ago or so that look, Iran had 60% enriched uranium. get it. like that's on its way to weapons grade. That would be easier to enrich to. weapons grade. But this you see there's they don't go. anywhere with it. It's all just a. non-sucker. It doesn't mean anything. Marco Rubio goes the only countries with. 60% enriched uranium 235 are countries.

with nuclear weapons. You see how that. doesn't mean anything? You can't make a. nuclear weapon with 60% enriched. uranium. So what was the point of them. making 60% enriched uranium? It was so. they had leverage in the negotiations. that they were in the middle in so they. could negotiate it away. They did the. same thing in the Obama years when they. were working on getting into the JCPOA. And it was America that broke the deal, not them. And then it says in the deal. that if America starts breaking the. deal, then Iran can stop abiding by some.

of the stipulations in it without. actually leaving the deal. And without. being in violation of the deal, they'. just be stop abiding by some of the. stipulations. Then in December of 2020, the Israelis killed the uh top nuclear. scientist over there, Fakraada, in a. machine gun ambush thing. And then in. April of 21, they did a sabotage attack. at Natants, which they took credit for. Okay? And it was in reaction to that was. when the Iranians started enriching up.

to 60%. Now, at this point in the story, Mike Baker goes something something yada. yada yada and can't finish the. statement. What does it mean that they. have 60% uranium? What are they doing. with it? Yes, it's true that if they. turned it back into a gas and enriched. it all the way up to 90%, then they. would have enriched uh you know, weapons. grade uranium. But they're not doing. that. And they weren't doing that. And. so, why try to frame it as a dangerous. threat? The only reason they were. enriching it up is because of course it.

is closer to weapons grade. They're. demonstrating that like, "Hey guys, you. keep assassinating our guys and. sabotaging our plants. We keep it it's. it's counterproductive for you, isn't. it? We keep enriching to a higher and. higher degree. If you want us to stop. doing that, you need to engage in. diplomacy instead of murder and. sabotage." That was the message that. they're sending. And then, of course, they're just going to ship all the. uranium to Russia or to France. probably. I guess the Russians to dilute it down.

back into you know to a lower grade to. burn in their civilian reactor and so. there this whole time they have not. broken out to make a nuclear weapon. Now, the North Koreans did. George Bush, well, I'll tell you real quick, is this. quick little thing. In 2002, George Bush. put him in the Axis V. Well, first of. all, Bill Clinton had an agreement with. them. It's called the agreed framework. of 1994 that said that if you leave your. heavy water reactor off at Yong Byong.

that the Soviets had built for them. You. leave it off, we will build you two. lightwater reactors that cannot produce. weapons grade plutonium as waste and. we'll give you a bunch of fuel, oil, and. a bunch of welfare if you stay in the. NPT. don't uh enrich to. they didn't have an enrichment program. at all. Stay in the MPT, keep the. inspectors in the country, leave your. reactor off, and we'll do these things. for you. Now, America never lived up to. their end of the deal. Nuke Gingrich. wouldn't let Bill Clinton live up to his. end of the deal in the '90s. It was.

actually Donald Rumsfeld's company that. got the contract to build the lightwater. reactors and never delivered them. And. then they delivered some of the fuel. oil, but very little of it. But still, the North Koreans stayed in their side. of the deal until W. Bush came to town. and W. Bush first of all put him in the. axis of evil. And then in the fall of. 2002, John Bolton accused them of. admitting supposedly, although not on. camera or on audio anywhere, but. supposedly a guy admitted at a cocktail. party that they had a secret uranium.

enrichment program. Well, if they did, that's not necessarily a violation of. the NPT or their safeguards agreement or. of the agreed framework. Again, a. civilian enrichment program is protected. under the NPT as long as you're not. making weapons out of it in violation of. the deal, right? So, even if they were. doing that, that's a cause to sit back. down at a table. That's not a cause to. break the deal. But what did Bush do? Him and Bolton, they tore up the agreed. framework, officially announced that. it's dead. Then they added new. sanctions. Then they announced something. called the proliferation security. initiative which was their claim to have.

the right to seize any North Korean ship. on the high seas uh in order to prevent. proliferation which is nothing in. international law allowing that but they. just claimed it unilaterally. And then. in December of O2 they put them in the. nuclear posture review on the short list. for a potential nuclear first strike. And it was only then that Kim Jong-. said, "Fine, screw you guys." And. announced he was going to withdraw from. the treaty, kicked the inspectors out of. the country, and they started making. nuclear weapons. Now, you might ask, what the hell were they doing? And I. think the answer is they thought they.

would have a chance to go to war with. North Korea before they were able to. complete their bombs. Problem is, Iraq. didn't go like Ahmed Chalibi promised it. would go. And so, they were in no. position whatsoever to go to North. Korea. So, they forced them out of the. deal, pushed Bush to nukes. That was the. great the last article that the great. Gordon Prather wrote for us at. anti-war.com was called How Bush Pushed. North Korea to nukes and it tells this. whole story. Rest in peace my friend. Gordon. He was a great one man. How Bush. pushed North Korea to nukes by Gordon.

Prather. So the Ayatollah said low man hands up. don't shoot. Here's my books. Yes, I'm. enriching uranium and I know you don't. want me to. He bought some material, some equipment to do it off the black. market, but only because Bill Clinton. denied the Chinese the right to just. sell them a lightwater reactor. Prevented them from doing so when that. would have been fine. If you just let. the Chinese sell them a lightwater. reactor, they would have never had a. heavy water one, you know. Um well, in.

fact, one more thing about North Korea. Donald Trump proved that that diplomacy. works. He completely broke the ice with. Kim the last time he was the president. It was John Bolton that sabotaged a. thing. He brought John Bolton with him. to I forgot if it was Vietnam or. Singapore, which meeting it was where. Bolton sabotaged the thing. On the. second meeting, he literally sent Bolton. to outer Mongolia to keep him out of the. way, but it wasn't enough. But if if he. had let Steven began, he was the guy who. said, "Hey, we could take. denuclearization off the table first and. just work on normalization first and. denuclearization later." That was always.

obviously the poison pill of the Bush. and Obama people. First, give up all. your nukes, then we'll begin to talk to. you. Yeah, right. And so Steven Began, who worked for Trump, was saying, "Nah, we don't have to do it like that. We can. work with them." He gave a speech like. that. But then if you look at the. pictures, Began's in the chair in the. back by the wall and doesn't get to sit. at the table saying nothing or he's down. further on the table, whatever it was, and didn't get to have his say. Um, and. so it was Bolton helped. It was the same. guy, John Bolton, uh, who Sheldon add. picked to be Donald Trump's national.

security adviser, uh, was the one who. ruined that. Um anyway, on Iran, me and. every other don't bomb Iran activist in. America for two decades have been saying. if we attack them, then they're more. likely to break out and make a nuke. So, I have to stand on that. That yes, they're now more likely to break out and. make a nuke than they were before. because of the completely foreseeable. fact that we can't pursue a regime. change. We're only incentivizing them to. arm themselves up worse. So now we're.

counting on like the cool patient wisdom. of the Ayatollah nominee to not be that. crazy when the whole point supposedly of. this is that he's so crazy that you. can't trust him with any nuclear. technology at all. Right? You can't. trust him with the ability to enrich. uranium up to weapons grade whether he. is or not. But now we got to just rely. on him and hope he doesn't because now. he could. You just dig a deeper hole. under a bigger mountain and try again. Do you think Trump should travel to. Iran? >> I do. I absolutely think that Donald.

Trump could go straight to Tyrron and. then Moscow, Beijing, and Pyongyang and. come home and be Trump the Great. Said. before, I'll say it again. And even with. the Russia situations we talked about. before, but I don't want to spoil it, but very difficult to solve. It's. >> coming up. >> That's right. We're punching this in. everybody, but it's very difficult to. solve. Um, >> it's funny, >> but there's got to be a way. And and. even if that's the hardest one, I think. we could absolutely put away our. problems with Iran and North Korea,

no question, I don't really know exactly. what we have outstanding with China. other than the potential of conflict. over Taiwan. It's they're not really. threatening our allies in Korea, Japan, or Australia, or anybody else. And I. don't, you know, really worry about. that. Um that's not been their history. They got their own problems. It's a very. poor country in the West and all that. So, um, I'm not so worried about the. rise of China as some are, but So, go in. and do diplomacy. Go in and do.

diplomacy. And that's Trump's whole. thing. And look, you know, they say only. Nixon can go to China. Well, why is. that? Cuz if a Democrat did it, Nixon. would call him a commie, right? Like, he. can't. It would be Nixon to to stop it. But if Nixon goes, well, you know, it's. not that he's a commie. Here he's. shaking hands with mouse tongue. Why. would Henry I mean, why Yeah. Hen why. would Henry Kissinger and Richard Nixon. of all people shake hands with Mao? They. did because they're smart, right? Not. because they're communists, but because. they were making what they thought was a.

wise move to benefit America's national. interests at the expense of the Soviet. Union. And if that means shaking the. bloodiest hand in the history of the. world, then business is business, right? Same thing is Ronald Reagan can end the. Cold War with Macau Gorbachov. Imagine. if Montdale had won in 84 and it was. Walter Montdale that was trying to. negotiate the end of the Cold War in. front of the Republicans. You could imagine it going terribly, right? In a way totally different than. having Reagan and his successor Bush.

handling it from the GOP side. And then. same thing here, man. If if Donald Trump. just gets up there and goes as he always. does, right, I'm the tallest, richest, most handsome, most successful diplomat. in the history of the world, watch me. And then go out and make that the. standard. Being a good diplomat is the. measure of a man. I say so and then go. out there and act that way. Then it is. what he says it is, right? What the. hell? >> And do the thing where you meet and then. you pull them in with that handshake.

>> Yeah. Get that handshake. Yeah. You got. to appreciate the fact that the. Republicans probably still, even though. there's obviously a lot of resentment. and a lot of bad feelings over all these. years, but it comes down to it, a. Republican president really says, "Come. on, everybody. We got to go fight them. radical Islams." He could probably get a. lot of Republicans to go ahead. Oh man, terrorism is the problem again. Remember. Islam from before were the thing? And. like, yeah, and go along with that. I. think they could. And I think Donald. Trump Donald Trump could simply just run. on I kill Muslims dead and I'm a big.

tough right-winger. But he does not. He. runs on I'm the peace president. I'm the. one who's trying to solve all this. I'm. the one who's going to make all this go. away for you. He knows that's what we. want to hear. And I think it's his his. basic bias except of course he has you. know Israel the devil on his shoulder. making him or you know strongly. influencing him to choose the wrong. thing a hell of a lot of the time. But I. think that's his basic instinct is to. want to do that kind of stuff. You know, >> I don't think I've heard a politician.

talk about peace as much as him. Like. legitimately, I mean, yeah, is grounded. in ego and narcissism and so on that I'm. the best dealmaker in the world, but. fine. >> Yeah. Let him have it. Yeah. Call it. victory. I don't care. Call it whatever. you want, dude. >> What it means to be a man is to go into. the fire and make the best deals in the. world. >> That's right. >> Yeah. Fuck yeah. That's America. That. should be cuz America has a gigantic. stick and gigantic carrot. >> Fucking use it. >> Yeah. And especially the carrot thing. That's my thing with North Korea. It's. like we have everything to give.

>> and nothing to lose. Like even when I. describe the Bill Clinton deal, we give. them some fuel oil and some welfare. You. know what? Like I'm a libertarian. I'm. against all taxation. But all other. things being equal, what's it to you, Lex? We pay them a little bit of welfare. to keep them from turning their heavy. water reactor back on and harvesting. plutonium out of the sob. Okay, now. they're sitting on a couple of dozen. nukes and it's all America's fault. So, you know, could have tried harder and. better and not hired John Bolton to.

help. You know what I mean? These are. decisions that men made. They could have. gone the other way and they still could. You know, if you remember when Trump. first came in, he was saying a lot of. really cool stuff about, "Yeah, I'm. going to spl I want to sign a big new. nuke treaty. I want to slash the. military budget. I want to have a new. treaty with Russia and China where we. all slash our military budgets." He. said, "I don't want to pivot from the. Middle East to great power competition. I want to get along with everybody. Let's all just get along and make money. for the rest of the century." Like, yeah, dude. That is, you know, the the.

lack of special interests talking, right? That's what Trump thinks before. everybody gets to get in there and have. their say about, "No, sir, we got to do. this, that, and the other thing." But. why have major power competition at all? Why have any of this stuff? Maybe we can. just be a world of people owning. property and exchanging it freely to, you know, uh, greater enhance our. standard of living, you know. >> I wonder if you can comment. I forget if.

we already did about the treatment of. the Iranian people by the Iranian. regime. >> Oh, yeah. Uh, yes, you did start to ask. that and I This is where we went to a. good question. >> Yeah, that is a good question. But hang. on, let's do Somalia real quick. Yeah. No, I'm sure it would suck to live in. Tyrron. you know what I mean? Or in. Iran, I don't know. It's I'm I'm sure. it's a police state. It's on the face of. it, it's an extremely flawed republic, the same as ours, only different in, you. know, in different ways. Um, but I mean, the very worst things you can say about.

them in international diplomacy or. international, you know, action lately. is they keep opening up America's. Christmas gifts, right? They keep. accepting. I mean, if you want to blame. them for sending Chi to lie to Pearl, you can. But I mean essentially they. stay home and let America do their dirty. work for them. You know, we fought three. wars for them. Two Iraq wars in. Afghanistan. Um and and hell helped. empower their friends in Iran in Yemen.

accidentally um you know in in reaction. form, but still. And so um. you know they're not the aggressive. power that they're portrayed to be often. times. You know, even again, look at. this current war where they fired all. these rockets at an empty corner of a. base again in Cutter. They called Donald. Trump beforehand and let him know the. rockets are coming. They've fired. exactly as many rockets as bombs America. dropped, 14. And remember, Trump. tweeted, "Thanks for the heads up that. you're shooting the rockets so we can.

shoot them all down." In other words, even after America hit them with our. biggest conventional bombs, they still. struck back only in a symbolic way and. absolutely signal they did not want to. tangle with the USA at all. This is. after Trump warned them to evacuate. Tyrron, right? Which could have been a. threat of a nuclear strike or at least a. carpet bombing campaign or at least a. very heavy bombing campaign against. government targets, you know, civilian. government and military government. targets in the in the city that, you. know, is a a pretty major threat. And.

the Ayatoll still is like, "Come on, man. I want to fight you." And and. shoots his 14 little measly missiles as. essentially a show only. And so we're. relying on that. This thing could have. escalated, right? This war that Israel. is dragging us into, it could have. What. if they had shot 5,000 missiles at our. bases in the Gulf? We'd be in the middle. of a ugly as hell war right now. They'd. have had to quote unquote had. They'd. have talked themselves into probably. sending in ground troops to complete the. regime change once it gets that bad. So,

that is a risk that they were taking. Um, and thank goodness that cooler heads. prevail. But it's kind of nuts that. America has to rely on the supposedly. mad mullas to be cool while we're. bombing them, right? In a way where if. they escalate at all, we could escalate. and and the thing could get way out of. control very quickly. Um, with America. attempting to occupy a land three or. four times the size of Iraq with. mountains and four times the population. and the rest.

>> I was really worried. I think we got. lucky and I was really worried that this. would be another forever war. >> It ain't over yet, man. That's the. problem is they just they didn't solve. it. They could have solved it at the. table. They probably still could, >> but they have to recognize just go to. Ayatollah and speak with Ayatoll. >> But, you know, like I talked with Tita. Parsy and he's a great expert on this. and has been preaching more or less the. dove side of the case here for a very. long time. He told me on the show the.

other, he's like, I fully expect them to. break out and make a nuke. Now, hell, they kicked the inspectors out. Israel and America just gave them cause. to kick the inspectors out of the. country. They think the inspectors were. were spies, passing intelligence to the. planners for the war. So, they kicked. the inspectors out. So, now we lost. track of every last atom. We had it. where I could sit here and tell you, man, the IAEA, for all their complaints. about, oh, we found this little thing. and we found that little thing, explain. this, explain that. For all of their. little nitpicking, they always continued.

to verify the non-diversion of nuclear. material in Iran to any new any military. or other special purpose. Meaning, they. knew where it all was. They had their. scales. They had their sensors. They had. their seals and their cameras, and they. knew this much uranium is here today. It's there tomorrow and whatever. They. tracked it all around and they could. verify the non-diversion. That's the. IAEA's job. Now, that chain of evidence. is broken. now like we don't know. exactly what they're enriching. We don't. know how much exactly they've been able. to convert and where they diverted it to.

and whatever and what is happening now. essentially undercover darkness. So if. they invite the inspectors back in and. say see our civilian program at that. point they very well could have a secret. parallel weapons program that we don't. know about. Now that has not been the. case this whole time. It very well could. be the case going forward from the. summer of 2025. So from this point on, you still think carrot. is more effective than stick. So. diplomacy versus threatening and.

military action. So here diplomacy is. the only way out. Yeah. Well, and. especially considering like I'm not. saying that's like the magic trick of. all foreign policy or whatever, although. I I'm just a non-interventionist anyway, but I'm just saying as far as like. solving this problem, the Ayatollah wasn't making nukes. There wasn't an emergency that we had to. preempt. So yeah, of course diplomacy is the. answer when he's sitting there saying, "Look, man, I have a civilian program. and that's going to have to be good. enough for you." Of course, violence and.

threats are what has made it far more. likely that they're now going to make. nukes because the Israelis say for them. to have nuclear technology at all is. equivalent to them having an advanced. weapons program, which is just really. not true. And again, it's a problem that. we can't solve for them without. committing to a serious war effort that. no war planners have talked about in. this whole time. But again, that's the. unreality of the whole thing. You can't. solve it from the air. So don't start. it. You're going to make matters worse,

but you can't fix it for with a B2. Even. if you kill the Ayatollah and 10 of his. best guys, you still didn't overthrow. the government there. They got 20 more. guys. What are you talking about? they. just make a new guy, the Ayatollah, and. pull the old president out of. retirement, put him up there, you know. So, if you're insisting on regime. change, it's going to take the third. infantry division. Anybody signing up. for that? And I the thing I really really deeply. worry about is something you spoke about.

which is the god forbid the possibility. of a bin lad knight type character doing. a terrorist attack in the United States. and then the machinery the. military-industrial complex creating. propaganda that says Iran somehow. connecting Iran to it and now we have to. invade Iran. We the American people have. to put feet on the ground and regime. change and and all of a sudden but I. think the American people I mean the the. wars in the Middle East have really. taught the lesson like no depends on how.

quick it's forced on them right at this. point. See it took Bush a year and a. half to li with Iraq. Obama just goes. yeah we're going to war in Libya and. every like okay whatever right? But war with Iran is a is another. delight. I mean, >> Trump, too. Trump didn't barely even. lied us into it, right? His own. government was saying, "They're not. making nukes." And he goes, "I don't. care what they say. I want to do it. anyway. Israel says they are." And they. just did they they barely even lied us. into it. They just did anyway. And then. they go, "Well, see that was over. Short.

and sweet. Time for peace." And then. call timeout. But again, it's not over. yet. >> And then we got lucky because Iran did. not respond. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> By escalating. >> And Trump claimed that he completely. obliterated their program and total. victory, which is not true. So where are. we now? We're at the second half. You. know, I mean, I was really worried. because Iran was essentially humiliated. And when when states like that, especially regimes like Iran's is. humiliated, they don't usually like.

to uh be sort of calm and deescalate, >> right? In fact, especially if it's true. that they're so fragile in their power, right, that this would make them even. more desperate to show how tough they. are. >> That's how you create terrorists. >> In fact, the headline today is Iran. demands full reparations for the war. before talks. In other words, just. exactly what you said, give us our pride. and then we'll talk to you. Recognize. enrichment and then we'll talk to you. In other words, we're going nowhere with. talks right now until Donald Trump. climbs way down on the ladder. And by.

the way, in diplomacy in general, on a. basic human level, letting people have their pride, not. humiliating them is essential. You know, doing things like labeling somebody as. the axis of evil, >> you're signaling to your own people. maybe, >> but you're humiliating, you're deeply. disrespecting the other side. Sometimes. you have to like soften the. communication in order to achieve not. trusting anybody, but in order to. achieve ends, >> right? And that was their whole point.

was to escalate conflict, right? And. also think about the lie you talk about. signaling to the Americans. How's this. for a lie that Saddam Hussein and the. Ayatollah. and Osama bin Laden and Kim Jong- are. all in a big alliance against you to. kill you. Right? So Saddam and Ayatollah. both hate each other more than any two. men in the world. The Ayatollah probably. doesn't think too much about Osama, but. Saddam Hussein's clearly terrified of. him.

>> Mhm. >> And none of them had a damn thing to do. with Iran or with pardon me with North. Korea except that North Korea had. shipped some missiles to Iran back in. the day, but they had no tight alliance. at that time. And they're mid-range. missiles. Not that big of a deal anyway. So, Axis, nothing. But the point was. these are all people we want to pick a. fight with basically. >> What do you think? Did we cover Iran? >> I think we got it. >> I think we got it. Now, I I forgot and I. wanted to thank you for signing uh all. the books that you gave me with Lex for. Peace. I think that's a beautiful way to.

sign it and a beautiful goal to live by. I hope you like it, man. All right, brother. Uh and uh back to. now yesterday again more. Now, let's let's go back to Iran and. their nuclear program and the recent war. in a minute, but you want to do Israel. Palestine. Okay. So, it's a huge long complicated story. I. really highly recommend Daryl Cooper's. podcast, Fear and Loathing in the New. Jerusalem. I know people say a lot of.

terrible things about Daryl Cooper, but. none of them are true. I He's my partner. on my podcast, Provoked, our new show. And the guy is a total sweetheart, man. He's not a hater of anyone. He's not a. Holocaust denier. What happened was. people misunderstood him when he was on. the Tucker Carlson show that day. In. fact, he was making the opposite point. of what people think. They thought that. he was saying the Holocaust was just. that the Nazis didn't have a good plan. to feed all their prisoners. That's not. what he was saying. What he was saying. was that even if you were a Holocaust.

denier, you could not deny the fact that. the Nazis were taking possession of. millions of people that they had no plan. to care for and that yes, in fact, a. great many of them were starved to death. and shot in this thing. and that if you. were the worst, even you would have to. admit that that's what he was saying. But what happened was a minute ago he. had just said he thought Churchill was. worse than Hitler. And it was kind of. tongue and cheek, but he was saying for. various reasons that Churchill was the.

real villain of the war. And there's a. case to be made for the role that. Churchill played in escalating that. whole thing. But that aside, when they. heard him say the thing about the. feeding and the Eastern in Eastern. Europe and the the care for the. prisoners, they misunderstood and they. thought that what he was doing is just. spinning for the Third Reich at this. point or whatever when that was. absolutely not the case whatsoever. Dude, he's a a really great guy. And if. and in fact, I'd ask anybody listen to. even just the very first section of Fear. and Loathing in the New Jerusalem. He.

demands that you put yourself, if you're. going to listen to him, he doesn't just. tell it as objectively as he can. He. demands subjectivity from you and that. you, the listener, put yourself in the. shoes of the people that we're talking. about here. Imagine if this was you. And. the first thing that he describes, it. sounds like a bunch of Israeli settlers. coming to m murder some Palestinians on. the West Bank. But then you realize that. no, he's talking about Russians doing. pograms against Jews in Russia in the. dawn of the Zionist movement in the.

early 20th century, late 7 late 18th. century and into the 20th century. And. he's talking about their victimhood and. why they were so motivated to create. this movement and get the hell out of. there. It was the era of nationalism, but they had no place for their state of. their own. So they wanted to move. somewhere else and do it. Whatever. He. tells it from their point of view as. much as he possibly can. There's just no. hatred or prejudice against Jews in. there at all. And it it bothers me. Liars don't really bother me. They just. make for a good foil. But it bothers me. that good people would misunderstand and.

believe lies and think the worst of the. guy because I think his 25-hour long. podcast, Fear and Loathing in the New. Jerusalem, leads up to the creation of. the state. That's where it ends. It's. the whole backstory to the creation. thing. And it's just brilliant, man. It. is. It's so good. Um, but in any case, so. look, the story is there was this. radical Jewish nationalist movement. called Zionism from Eastern Europe where. they wanted to find a homeland. They.

thought maybe they'd go to Argentina or. Madagascar and they settled on Palestine. for obvious historical reasons and all. of that kind of thing. And the movement. only had so much uh Jews at the time. The majority of religious and reformed. Jews in the United States and in Europe. Um I don't know how many reformed Jews. there were in Europe at that time. In. the United States it was a big movement, but they mostly were against it. The. consensus was against it for a variety. of reasons. Then of course after the.

second world war it really took off and. the argument was made that the Jews of. Europe need somewhere else to go after. the holocaust. And so they that was what. led to. a push by the western powers to. transport many more of them to Palestine. and to help them to create the state. there. Now. obviously there's only so much we can. cover here but to try from from my point. of view I think to try to like narrow in.

on like what is crucial to understand. about the thing is that in 1948. they launched what was called the Nakba. by the Palestinians the catastrophe and. this is when they were all cleansed off. of what's now what we call Israel proper. that is less the West Bank and the Gaza. Strip um and East Jerusalem, but they. went as far as West Jerusalem. And.

they when they created the state, they. cleansed that territory through terror. and murder and rape and pillage. They. and mostly through terror, they forced. all those people out of their homes. And. when we say 750,000 people, X, we're. talking about the population of greater. Austin, Texas, right? including. Flugerville and Round Rock and maybe. Butuda. Okay, we're talking about a lot of. people were forced off of their property.

and into what then the Gaza Strip in the. West Bank and then refugee camps. elsewhere in Kuwait and in in Lebanon. and Syria and the rest. Um now when they. did that all morality aside just. strictly like um what they say. descriptive not normative right that. like in this sense it worked. in the aftermath. the Zionists had created an 8020 super.

duper Jewish majority so they could call. themselves a Jewish democracy and have a. lot of the trappings of democracy and. ingratiate themselves with the west or. try to on that basis. And there's like some of some truth to. it, of course. Um, but you know, and by. the way, let me recommend to you and to. your listeners, but I really hope you. read this. I'll bring you one. I should. have brought you one today. I didn't. think of it. I have a stack them at my. house. Um, it's called Coming to. Palestine by my colleague Sheldon. Richmond. And he is the co-founder with.

me of the Libertarian Institute and a. brilliant and longtime libertarian. writer and activist. and he was of. course uh raised Jewish and Zionist in. the United States in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. And um this is a collection of essays. that he wrote over probably 30 years or. something. And it's just about how he. learned the truth about all this and how. that's why he ain't a Zionist no more. Man, what do you mean the Darius. massacre, which is like the Mi massacre,

right? This horror show. I never heard. of that. They told me it was a land. without people. for a people without. land. That kind of sounds screwy, doesn't it? The Eastern Mediterranean. shore was devoid of life. That's I don't. know. So, that was a lie, right? And in. fact, I mentioned Eric Margles, my. friend, the journalist. His mother was. sort of a Lois Lane character, an. independent journalist of her own who. went tramping around the um trampsons. around the um the region after World War.

II interviewing sultans and kings and. potentates and whatever. and she. reported on the horrific conditions of. the poor Palestinian refugees, the. Muslims and Christians who had been. cleansed from their land and forced into. the West Bank. And they threatened to. murder her. And they threatened to. murder my friend, little baby Eric. Margles if she would dare to continue to. tell the truth. At that time, Lex, the. Palestinian people's existence was a. wild conspiracy theory by cooks. Only.

cooks believe there's Palestinians. This. was a land without people for a people. without land. What a coincidence. And. what good fortune that they could come. and just make an empty desert bloom at a. cost to nobody and a cost of nobody's. conscience here. And that was of course, you know, people who really knew a lot. about things would have known better. than that, I guess. But that was. essentially the mythology that the. American people were told by popular.

culture and particularly in Hollywood. movies and the way that they did uh the. movie of Exodus and all of those things. in pushing this mythology. Now. the thing about that is oh and I was. going to say about Sheldon's book. Sheldon points out that the Israeli. scholar made a secret deal with the king. of Jordan that he would take the West. Bank and Israel would not fight him over. it. He they would encourage him and even. to help him to take the West Bank. Why?

To preclude the possibility of the. creation of a Palestinian state on what. was left of Palestine. They wanted it. all at least someday. If they can't have. it all now, they can at least prevent. the Palestinians from making their own. state out of if we got to take it from. the other side the the party on the. other side of the Jordan River later, that's easier. So they did that. deliberately on purpose to screw the. Palestinians out of their own. independent state from the first place. Okay. But now here's getting to the meat. of the thing. Go ahead. >> Uh if I may just read a little bit more.

about the book that it's a collection of. essays written over 30 years that. critically examines the history of the. Israelis dispossession of Palestinians. and challenges the mainstream narrative. often presented in the United States. regarding Israel's founding. Richmond, a. noted libertarian author, argues for. reason, freedom, peace, and toleration. with respect to both Palestinians and. Israelis, turning conventional stories. regarding the region on their head. In. this volume, Richmond meticulously.

documents historical events and policies. that led to the displacement of. suffering of Palestinian people, emphasizing their rights as individual. human beings and the injustices suffered. when they were made refugees, dispossessed, or killed. This book is. recognized for being forthright and. honest in its depiction of the conflict, drawing on well doumented data and. offering a perspective that is often. absent from mainstream discourse. Absolutely right. And Sheldon again, just like if we were talking about Mir. Shimer and these guys or Dr. Paul, he's.

a saint, right? Nobody's got nothing on. Sheldon, man. He is an exceptionally. decent man and there's nothing that. nobody can do about it, right? So what's. his motive here? His motive here is. decency. His motive here is and he tells. the story of his grandfather. They would. always say, "Next year in Jerusalem.". And his grandfather would say, "Next. year in Philadelphia." Because he hated. Zionism. And he would say this, I'm.

quoting a quote of a quote of a Jewish. guy quoting his Jewish grandfather, okay? Say the Jews are responsible for. all the problems over there, not the. Palestinians. And Sheldon says that he. always regretted that he never had a. chance to really ask him what he meant. by that and really talk with him about. that he was too young and and didn't. never get around to it, but that his. extremely Jewish grandfather who helped. raise him in Philadelphia had nothing. but contempt for the Zionist project. And he shows how most religious and. again reformed Jews were against it. So.

it's going to, you know, cause Jews to. divide their loyalties. is going to. cause Jews to be falsely accused of. dividing their loyalties. It's going to. cause nothing but endless disruptions in. the Middle East and problems for the. United States of America, which is. actually their country. I mean, think. how insane it is to call American Jews. the Israeli diaspora when they're not. from Israel. Israel was created in 1948. American Jews came here in the 18th. century. Man, what the hell? And and in.

the 20 uh pardon me, the 19th, I meant. to say uh century in the 1800s. And in. the 1900s is when millions of Jews came. to the United States, right? Uh how in. the world are they the diaspora from. Israel that came into existence after. America became their promised land, you. know? Um it's and so this was a big part. of why there was so much resistance. among Jewish communities against the. creation of the Israeli state in the. first place. And Sheldon goes into that.

in great depth. It's just fantastic. book. It's a little bitty book. I mean, everybody get right through it. It's but. it's really worth your time. So, where. I'm going with this is the ' 67 war. And. what happened in 1967 is that Israel. took possession of the West Bank and the. Gaza Strip and all the Palestinians on. it. Now, they cleansed another 250,000. Palestinians. They expanded their border. a little bit in the West Bank and. cleansed about another quarter of a. million uh Palestinians off of their. territory at at that time. That usually. goes unnoted. But the thing is is they.

quite literally man they de facto. annexed. I heard a report on my way here. today. I was listening to Dave Damp's. anti-war news and he was saying Israel. is threatening to annex Gaza. Well, Israel Good and stole Gaza in 1967 and. all the people on it too and the West. Bank too and East Jerusalem, including. East Jerusalem, as well as the Golan. Heights uh that he stole uh that they. stole from the Syrians. Um those poor.

Jews and their occupation usually gets. uh much less mentioned, but they were. kidnapped along with the Palestinians as. well. And the thing is about it is that. they wanted that land. They didn't want. the people, but they couldn't just get. rid of them all. They had cleansed their. 750,000 to create the Israeli state. They couldn't push the rest of them the. rest of the way into Jordan. Now they. have I don't know what the number was. exactly then or I forget what it was. then. We're now talking about almost six.

million Palestinians on the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and including the oneif. of the Palestinians who are citizens of. Israel who don't live under occupation, but as sort of secondass citizens of. Israel, like under Jim Crow type. situation where they're not allowed to. intermar, they're not allowed to u live. wherever they want around Jewish. communities that don't want them. And. there with only one slight exception, the tradition has always been that they. can have a political party in the. Knesset, but no group of parties would.

form a majority with them. In other. words, any group of Israeli Jewish. parties would rather let the other guys. form a coalition than form a coalition. with the Arabs. And that only changed. one time in our very recent history. here. I believe during Donald Trump's. first term or maybe early Biden when Yar. Laid needed uh to ally temporarily uh. with Arabs um was the one time they've. ever broken that tradition. So anyway, I'm off on a tangent, but there are, as.

I said before, it's 8020. So there's a. oneif of the population of Israel proper. or whatever green line Israel 67 borders. Israel or Palestinian uh Arab Muslims. and Christians. So you combine their. population with the occupied population. of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Now. you're talking about 50/50. Only the. Israeli Jews have all the power and the. Palestinian Muslims and Christians have. none. And in the occupied territories, they live as utter slaves as though. under communism, under not just martial. law, but foreign government. occupation.

military law. In other words, and by the. Israelis, no law at all. We're talking. children brought before military courts. in a foreign language and sentenced to. dungeons without any process. We are. talking about totalitarian slavery like. under the NKVD in the USSR. They are not free and Israel is not a. democracy when half the people under the. control of their state have no rights at.

all. No civil liberties, no civil rights. as far as like participation in. governmental process, no taxation. without representation. They have no. representation whatsoever. Okay? And the. thing is about it is what makes them not. slaves is the Israelis don't want them, right? They're not forcing them to work. for free. They're certainly depriving. them of all of their rights and. humiliating them every chance they get, stealing all their water resources, murdering them, pillaging them, stealing. their territory a little bit at a time,

and working toward a day when they can. finish the job and just take it all. And. what's really messed up, man, is that. they don't even really want the Gaza. Strip that bad. I mean, sure they do, but what they really want is the West. Bank, as their religious zealots call. it, Judea and Samaria, and that they. have leftover religious edict from 3,000. years ago that says that you can say. whatever you want about the Palestinians. and their natural property rights under. lock in theory and the western. conception of how one comes to own a.

thing and they will say nope we have. supernatural property rights that says. that we get to come and kill you and. move into your house and do whatever we. want and recognize no rights to the. Palestinians just like uh justice uh. Teny or Tani saying that the black men. have no rights that a white man is bound. to respect, right, in Dread Scott. That's the way that they treat the. Palestinians. They call them. grasshoppers, right? Not even mammals.

They're just insects to be eradicated. because the Israelis covet their. property. It's as simple as that. They. want to covet it so they kill so they. can steal and that's it. And then. they'll come up with every lie in the. world to try to justify it all. Now, David Bengurian, the founding prime. minister of Israel, said, "Give it back. Give it up. Let them have it. Yeah, we. want the land, but we don't want all. these people. What are we going to do. with them all? How like what's the. endgame here when we're taking. possession of millions of people that we. hate and don't want in our country?" And.

so, it's not worth it to do this. That's. Ben Gurian, the founding guy said that. And they told him, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. We. know what we're doing." And you're. probably familiar with this woman, Daniela Weiss. You'll see her in various. documentaries and so forth. She's the. insane zealot saying we must uh occupy. and and settle all of Gaza and all of. the West Bank. Um. and uh so she um there's a great new. documentary called The Settlers. I. forget. I never saw part one of it, but.

the the sequel, it just came out is. called The Settlers. It's really good. and it's includes um extensive. interviews with her. And there was a a. statement that she made recently in the. last 2 years where or or or a video that. came out that someone some journalist. had revealed this video I guess of her. in the 1970s. explain or maybe it's her in more recent. times just talking about the 1970s. Um. forgive me but people can find this I'm. sure. Um, and what she's saying is from.

the moment they took over the West Bank, she worked with Ariel Chiron to create a. an archipelago of settlements across the. West Bank in a way to preclude the. possibility of a Palestinian state as. fast as they possibly could. That was. absolutely their first object is we've. got to bisect them here and bisect them. there so that they can never have a. state of their own. And that was their. goal this whole time, this radical. seller movement. Now in, you know, we.

talked about the '9s, we talked about. the clean break when Netanyahu came in. The the clean break again is a clean. break from Oslo and um Yetin and Shimone. Perez's attempt to negotiate with the. Arab states and the Palestinians. and um of course Netanyahu. If you're. not familiar with this, we should maybe. play this as long as we're taking our. time here. Lex, let's see if we can find. secret video of Netanyahu.

This is it. This is it. Yeah. So, you. just mute that and and just read the uh. read the caption there. So, let me set. this up. Netanyahu in this in this. video, he is no longer the prime. minister. He's um at a settller's house. in the living room. He tells the boy, "Turn off the video camera." And the boy. either fails to turn it off or he. deliberately turns it right back on. again. It's a bit unclear, but the video. keeps rolling. And Netanyahu keeps. blabbing. And he's saying, "What you do. is you just beat these Palestinians. You.

just hurt them and cripple them and kill. them and weaken them and let them know. that they'll never win and we'll crush. them and blah blah blah blah blah." And. she says, "Ah, geez, Bi, but aren't you. going to drive the world crazy and make. them mad, especially America?" And and. Netanyahu then ridicules us and says, "Let me tell you something about. America, okay? America is a thing that. is easily moved. 80% of them support us. It's absurd. I'm not afraid of Bill Clinton. Let me.

tell you what I did to Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton said, "Yada yada, area C.". I said, "No problem, Bill." But then you. know what I did? I made it where Area C. is this huge military area, twothirds of. the West Bank. Haha. sexually assaulted. old Bill right in the face and got away. with murder. And not because his spies. were blackmailing Bill Clinton, tapping. his phone and all of his sex capades. They use that blackmail to try to get. him to pardon Jonathan Pard. That's. different. They were doing that. But.

Netanyahu here is mocking Bill Clinton. and he's mocking the American people for. being essentially a bunch of. grasshoppers that he can do whatever he. wants with us, including lie our fathers. into sending their sons to die in his. wars. If I may just comment, one of the. things that troubles me a lot in these. the geopolitical aspect of this is when. the prime minister of Israel shows so. much disrespect towards the president of.

my country. Oh, he never had any respect. at all. Don't let don't let me sound. sympathetic to old Bill Clinton the. child killer here when I say this, but I. can almost sympathize with him when they. say after his first meeting with. Netanyahu in 1996, after half an hour, he came out and said, "Who the f does. this guy think he is? Oh my god, who's. the superpower and who's the client. state?" Like he was out of breath. Exasperate, just stunned. Why? Why is he.

able to talk like this to the United. States president? >> I have no idea. He blackmailed Bill. He. told Bill Clinton, "You better let. Jonathan Pard out cuz I have you on tape. with Monica Lewinsky, pal.". >> And Bill Clinton was going to do it. except that George Tennant said he would. resign and that many leaders of the CIA. would resign in protest if he did it. Jonathan Pard was the one of the most. destructive spies in American history. He was spying for Israel and they were. turning over everything that he stole. I.

mean, rooms full to the Soviet Union. >> But it's not just Clinton. Like he shows. even just let's just take it to today. >> Uh Benjamin Netanyahu seems to show a. lot of continued disrespect towards. Donald Trump. >> Like this is the this is the Donald. Trump is the president of the most. powerful country. >> and the best friend he ever had. Move. the move the embassy to Jerusalem. Recognized Israel's seizure of the Golan. Heights. wrangled these phony Abraham. Accords, which we're about to describe.

here in a minute. Did all of this for. him, has only barely talked him out of. annexation, but said, "We'll get to it. though, buddy. It's cool. Just wait." On. full annexation of the West Bank last. time around. Clearly, it's the agenda. this time. Clearly, Trump's wrapped. around his little finger, and still he. has nothing but contempt. And I wish. that someone would tell Trump, "Listen, pal, you might as well be a Palestinian. to this guy. He doesn't care about you. at all. He doesn't care about our. country at all. Back to my question. about Mark Dubowitz, my hypothetical.

here, which goes for all pro-Israel. factions in the United States. You think. Benjamin Netanyahu cares that 3,000. Americans died on September 11th because. Muhammad Ata was taking revenge for what. Israel had done in Lebanon? No. And you. know how I know that, Lex? He told the. New York Times, they didn't overhear. this and report it. he said to the New. York Times in an interview on September. 11th. It's very good. You want to pull that.

up? September 12, 2001, New York Times. Netanyahu very good. That's how much respect Benjamin. Netanyahu. has for the. enlistment age sons of the United States. of America. and the dead civilians on those planes. and in those towers. New York Times. That's it. >> A day of terror. The Israelis spilled. blood is seen as bond that draws two.

nations closer. Asked tonight what the attack meant for. the relations between the United States. and Israel. Benjamin Netanyahu, the. former prime minister, replied, "It's. very good." Then he edited himself. Well, it's not very good, but it will it. will generate immediate sympathy. He predicted that the attack would quote. strengthen the bond between our two. peoples because we've experienced terror.

over so many decades. But the United. States has now experienced a massive. hemorrhaging of terror. Yeah, man. And. listen, on September 11th, Donald Trump. says that there were Muslims in New. Jersey celebrating the attack. There was. somebody in New Jersey celebrating the. attack. They were Israeli MSAD officers. and they were arrested and they told the. arresting officers, "The problem isn't. us. The problem is the Palestinians.". The FBI released the pictures and. they're holding lighters up like they're.

the ones burning the tower down and. they're all laughing and celebrating. Justin Roando called them the. high-fivers. The FBI arrested them and. held them for months. Carl Cameron of. Fox News did a four-part investigative. series quoting FBI agents as saying they. had to have known what was happening. MSAD was in the United States following. the hijackers around and they only gave. the barest of warnings that August. They. did not tell everything that they knew.

about the September 11th attack. And. then it hit and Netanyahu said it's very. good. And then his fifth column lied us. into war with Iraq. And he never got his. pipeline to Hifa, by the way. But he did. make a deal with the Kurds to ship the. the uh oil out of there through Syria to. Israel. So they got their nickel a. barrel discount at the cost of 10. trillion of our wealth and they just and.

the ruining of the entire beginning of. the third millennium, pardon me. Um, but. it just did not have to be this way. It. just did not at all. >> Is it worthwhile here before we talk. about Gaza to draw a distinction between. the Israeli government and the Israeli. people? >> Just like we can draw the distinction. between Hamas and the Palestinian. people. >> Yes, absolutely. Although I would say. that by the Israelis argument about. popular sovereignty and popular consent. among the Palestinians for Hamas, they.

are far more implicated in the actions. of their government. There's virtually. unanimous political consent for Israel's. government's actions in that country. Their political spectrum is from Dick. Cheney to Hitler with Dick Cheney being. the leftist progressive. They are a. national socialist regime at war under a. theory of that they are a master race. ruling over the unmention.

It is a barbarian society. And does that. implicate every last Israeli individual. civilian human being? Of course not, Lex. That you know a bunch of the people. who were killed at that rave, they were. actually there at a peace function. They were trying to figure out a way to. help the people of the Gaza Strip and. even to someday recognize their. independence and freedom and do. something for them. Those people got. caught up and murdered by Hamas that. day, right? There there are not just.

liberals and leftists, but libertarians. and different there are plenty of army. veterans and whatever. you want to go. like the overall percentages, there is a resounding consensus for this. type of policy in that country. reminiscent of America circa 2002. in a way that we do not have. >> after October 7th. You're saying. >> even more so. No, even before that. Even. before that, you know, the the.

Palestinians are considered to be the. barbarians. They are the enemy. They are. the goyam. They are the the obstacle to. what the Palestinian what the Israeli. government and and the ideal is for the. country to have. Wouldn't it just be. better if we could get rid of them all? And that is the consensus and just get. rid of them all one way or the other. Um. and I I think that you know whatever. I'm not saying as Maline Albbright would.

say, "The people of Iraq are all. responsible for Saddam Hussein and I'll. starve them all and grind their bones to. make my bread as long as they won't. overthrow Saddam for me.". Which is the same thing Osama bin Laden. said, which is, "The American people are. responsible for the actions of our. government. After all, you're a. democracy, aren't you? And you pay your. taxes," he said. And so that was why he. said it was okay to kill us. I would. never agree with Maline Albbright or. Osama bin Laden about why it's okay to. kill innocent civilians at all. Um as.

diametrically opposed to their. philosophy as I could possibly be. Um. and that goes for absolutely when. Palestinians kill innocent Israeli. civilians. And if people say, "Well, they're settlers and colonists and all. this too." Fine. If they're not holding. a gun, they're not a combatant, then. they're not holding a gun and they're. not a combatant. That's it. That's, you. know, I don't know what the Geneva. Conventions say. That's what the Horton. Conventions say. I don't care about any. of that, you know. Um, so, >> and especially when it's children.

>> Yeah. And so, even if the population of. the United States, say the population of. Texas. broadly, and hell in you could measure. the polls go back. I bet you it's better. than 85% of Texans supported George. Bush's invasion of Iraq. Does that mean. any of them deserve to be killed because. they supported his evil premeditated. plot to kill people? No. That's. politics. That's government. And that's. the individual men who pulled the.

decisions. The individual men who told. the lies to convince the hapless to go. along. They're responsible. People who. cheerleled for it. Let's just concede. much less so. Okay? You know, if the. people of America said absolutely not, well, that would have been better and. ultimately it was up to us if we could. get enough of us to be good on it all at. once. Like we talked about with Syria. and stopping the war in 2013, they just. could not get past the population that.

wouldn't budge. >> We should say that in such dire. situations, the propaganda machine turns. on in every individual nation. >> Sure. >> And so it's actually very difficult to. be a citizen. >> Yeah. that can see the the reality of. the world clearly because you're. swimming in information that is. >> very constrained to a particular kind of. narrative and this is true for every. single nation at war and have you ever. seen the documentary defamation. >> it's really great it's made by an. Israeli Jew who goes out in search of.

anti-semitism and the worst anti-semite. in the whole movie is his grandma on the. West Bank I'm not going to quote her cuz. she's a vicious anti-semite um but the. thing is is he goes traveling all around. the world trying to find anybody who. hates Jews for being Jews. And he has no. such luck. And he goes and he hangs out. with a boxman at the um Anti-Defamation. League. And he goes on a field trip to. Ashwitz with some Israeli kids. But at. the beginning of the documentary, he. shows how the propaganda campaign. against the Israeli people by their.

government is essentially like America. 2002 forever. with no letup. It's show of this, show. of that always. And they really tell the. people, they really do raise them to. believe that every non-Jew in the world. wakes up in the morning with only one. goal, to kill all the Jews. And that's. all anyone else cares about or thinks. about. And they're all looking for the. first opportunity.

And aren't you glad that Israel's here. to protect you? Otherwise, it would be. another Holocaust immediately tomorrow. Right? That wasn't the result of the. most insane, fanatical, cranked out. lunatics to ever seize power in a major. industrial nation. No, that's what all. of humanity wants to do to us and would. do at any moment if they could. That's. what they're told all day, every day. And to a great extent, then believe it.

And so then and it's like an. anti-fragile belief. Daryl Cooper was. talking about this on our show the other. day. Um that the more people say, "My. God, Israel, what they're doing is so. wrong and I disapprove and I don't like. them anymore.". The more they say, "See, right?" He. compared them to the branch of idiians, right? When when people turn against us, it's just like we predicted they would. You see what they're doing? It's just. like before. And so there's no room in.

there to say, "Hey, wait a minute. Maybe. we really are going too far here. If all. our friends are telling us that we're. doing the wrong thing, what the hell?". Nope. You know how the anti-semites are. That's all they do is that's all they. want to do is and that's all they think. about all day long is how they can harm. us. All of them. And so under that state. of paranoid siege then you shouldn't be. too surprised that people are willing to. then go to the utmost lengths to destroy.

their enemies uh you know when they can. And of course Hamas did a very good job. on October 7th of playing into that. script. But now we're taking our time. here today. So before we get to that, let's talk about Aeros Ron one more. minute here because I should mention. briefly that this defamation movie looks. excellent. >> Oh, it's so good. >> Israeli director and a lot of the. Israeli press are praising it. It looks. fascinating. Of course, it's 2009. It'd. be interesting to see how that evolves. with social media and all that kind of.

stuff, but it's actually uh it's. fascinating when you confront the. reality. >> and and how dis how uncomfortable that. there's Mir Shimemer, right? >> There's a how uncomfortable people are. >> Yeah. >> Um when confronted with the fact that. actually nobody hates you at all. >> and then it's like they feel so. uncomfortable. At one point when they. go, he goes on the field trip to Ashwitz. with these high school kids and they. meet this old man and he's like, "Hi, who are you?" And they're like, "We're. kids from Israel and we came to see.

Ashwitz." He's like, "Oh, that's. interesting. Why are you doing that?". And they're like, "Well, it's part of. our history and the thing that we're. doing." He's like, "Oh, okay." And then. the next day, oh, and then at one point. they're walking through this beautiful. green field that's like puffy clouds and. blue skies and chirping birds and the. Holocaust is long over now in Poland. And so they're just it's the a beautiful. scene and they have a MSAD bodyguard. there to protect them from the. anti-semites who are going to jump out. of the woods and holocaust them all if. he wasn't there to protect them. And.

then the next day the guy says to him, "So how was your trip to Poland? How. have you liked it?" And everything. And. the one girl starts explaining, "Yeah, this old man, he came up to us and. attacked us and called us Jew donkeys. and all these things." And he says, "No, he didn't. I have it on film. I'll show. it to you right here." He said, "Hi, who. are you and what are you doing here?". Oh, that's interesting. Why are you. doing that? That's what he said. But the thing is is they came all this. way after being told that everybody's. trying to murder them. They're in the. land of the Holocaust and there is no. Holocaust going along anywhere. That was.

at that time 70 years before. And they. don't need a MSAD bodyguard at all. In. fact, they don't even need Stanley Smith. security there at all. Just their. teacher would be fine. And no one there. is anti-semitic. No one there means them. any harm at all. And these high school. students then have a hard time coping. with that and trying to figure out what. this weird world is that they're living. in where it can't be that they were lied. to. It's got to be that guy must have.

said something hateful to us under his. breath. I'm pretty sure he did. Didn't. he say something about how we're donkeys. or something? Right. And they just have. to come up with this in their own mind. to rationalize the danger that they've. been told by people that they trust that. they're in when in fact they're not. Right. Okay. And when in fact when they. are, it's the direct result of American. wars like scaring a bunch of refugees. into Europe and then killing even more. people and then they commit terrorist. attacks, things like that, which is. again all Israeli foreign policy that's. getting them killed. But now.

anti-semitism is good for Israel and. they know it. Benjamin Netanyahu is. cynical as can be about this. If you. remember when uh there was one of these. attacks, I believe at the uh kosher. grocery store in Paris, Netanyahu came to France and he said, "That's right, French Jews. You'll never. be French. You're Jews. Come home to. Israel." And they said, "Damn you. Screw. you and get out. We are too French. And. how dare you come here to this country.

and tell everybody else that we really. we're your fifth column and not. patriotic members of our civil society, civic society that we are in fact part. of and have lived here for centuries. Screw you, dude. But that's good for. him. He likes it when people hate Jews. overseas because it's good for driving. Jews overseas to move to Israel. And. that's what's good for Israel and that's. the only thing he cares about. again, September 11th. Oh, man. This is great.

is the only way that he can see it. What. he always wanted. And just like the high-fivers. Oh, good. The Palestinians are the problem. Now we. can get you to do what we want. Um, can we go to. >> Oh, yeah. We got to do uh Aeros Chiron. 2005 real quick. Aeros Chiron disengages. from the Gaza Strip. Now, why'd he do. that? Well, there's two major reasons. Okay, the first one is, and you can pull.

this up if you want to at. scotthorn.org/fairuse. It's the guy's name is Arnon Soffer with. two Fs. Arnon Soffer, and then type in. kill and kill. That should bring it up. There you go. An interview with him from. as I say it here. The year is 2004. It. is a year before Prime Minister Ariel. Chiron quote disengages from Gaza. Two. years before Hamas wins a plurality in.

the election George W. Bush forced them. to hold. 3 years before Elliot Abrams. failed coup which led to Hamas kicking. the Palestinian Authority out of Gaza. and seizing so-called control under the. strip of the strip under Israeli. overlordship of course and the. institution of the full-scale siege and. the beginning of the quote mowing the. grass campaigns which began in 2008. Chiron's adviser, Anon Soffer, explained. to the Jerusalem Post that the problem.

is the Palestinian Muslims and. Christians are having too many babies. The Israelis don't want to let them have. a state, but they do want to kick them. quote out of Israel, at least virtually. or figuratively, by so-called. disengaging with them so as to reduce. the number of Palestinians officially. occupied by Israel by a couple of. million people. Does that make sense? So. this guy is a demographer from Tel Aviv.

University. He comes to Ariel Chiron and. says, "Mr. Prime Minister, you got to. look at my mathematics here. We have a. problem. There are too many Palestinians. and they are out reproducing us. We are. approaching a 50/50 split or worse, where we are going to be a literal. dictionary definition, a parttheid state. of a minority ruling the majority under. this iron fist. And that could be very. untenable for the future of the state. and our support from the rest of the. western states etc.

So to solve this problem what we want to. do is just figuratively. kick the gazins out of Israel even. though Israel stole the Gaza Strip in '. 67 and they never did literally. disengage. They just put the thing under. siege. If you listen to pro-Israel uh. you know um propagandists now they'll. say well we gave them a Palestinian. state. We gave them full independence. with the disengagement of 2005 and all. we got in return is rockets. But that's.

not true. The is it was the Israelis. that broke the ceasefire originally just. as they always did ever since that time. uh until October the 7th of of 23. Um. they broke the ceasefires every single. time and then it was W. Bush who forced. them to hold the election where Hamas. won again a plurality not a majority in. even any single district anywhere in. Palestine did they win a majority of the. popular uh vote. Um then they formed a. coalition government which W. Bush um.

then secretly conspired and it's funny. to read. The article is called the Gaza. Bombshell by David Rose and Vanity Fair. And in that article, David Wormser. throws Elliot Abrams under the bus for. this and says this was an idiotic scheme. to help Fatah overthrow Hamas in the. Gaza Strip, which led to to Hamas. kicking their ass and pushing them out. instead and Hamas then having uh more. control over the Gaza Strip, which is.

what I think the Lood guys probably. wanted. And because so first of all now. again back I'll get right back to that. in a second but softer again. this article is from the Jerusalem Post. where he gives an interview to a lady. named Sarah something and he explains. the whole thing. Now, I found this I. forget where I I got it from, but it was. I found on the Jerusalem Post where it. used to be like the URL is still there, but and you can see where other people. have linked to it in the past, but now.

that URL is dead and that kind of thing, but if you search the Jerusalem Post. website carefully for her name and his. name, you will find other articles about. it where they refer back to this and. refer back to the most explosive quotes. out of it, etc. So, this is verified and. definitely a real interview even though. I don't believe you can find the whole. thing at the Jerusalem Post anymore, but. that's where it comes from. So, by the. way, and yes, go ahead. You've mentioned. many times scott horton.org/fare. use. So, you're almost like creating an.

archive of important documents that if. they were to be erased from the. internet, they're here to be found, >> right? as the stuff that's like most. important, especially if I need it and I. need to link to it and I think, you. know, whoever's got it now is going to. be unreliable in the near future. Link. rod is a real thing. >> It's a real problem. And and um so yeah, on on things like this where it's like I. can only find it in a pretty obscure. place, I'll go ahead and reprint it here. so that if that obscure place goes away, it'll still exist. Cuz man, I mean, I.

really am shocked and surprised and. dismayed how many times you'll have. crucial information that there's only. one version of it anywhere online and it. could go away any day. You know what I. mean? Like there's a lot of things like. that. Stresses me out. So I try to do. stuff like this. So now so he he says, "Listen, this is what we got to do. We. have to disengage from Gaza." So that. like just as a ruse, right? As an.

optical illusion, we're going to make it. seem as though we're kicking the. Palestinians of Gaza out of Israeli. control and jurisdiction. That way you. can't say it's an aparttheid state. anymore. Now we're back more to majority. rules over the minority. Of course, ruthlessly, but still, it's less worse. than having a Jewish minority ruling. over a Palestinian, Arab, Muslim, and. Christian majority. that would be less. tenable, right? Was the idea. So he told. Chiron this and said, "You got to do.

this and this is why." He explains this. to Sarah, what's her name? At um oh, it. was even called one-on-one. It's the. demography, stupid was the original. title of the thing. And he tells her, "This is what we got to do." And then we. got we'll have to put them under siege, of course, and and lock them in this. cage like animals, basically. And she. says, "Well, what do we expect the. Palestinians to do, right? they're going. to freak out and fight. And he goes, "Yeah, of course they are. But then we. will just have to kill and kill and.

kill. We will have to just bomb them and. bomb them and bomb them and bomb them to. just keep them weak and keep them from. being able to resist." That's it. That's. where that comes from. Ariel Chiron's. advisor, our nononser by Ruthie Bloom. I'm sorry I said her name wrong. I. thought it was Sarah or something. It's. Ruthie Bloom. And and that's what he. explains. We will just have to kill and. kill and kill. Now another important. aerial shone advisor was a guy named.

Dove Weissglass. and he explained to Harets that the. whole point of the disengagement from. Gaza is to put the peace process in. formaldahhide. again dividing and conquering the. Palestinians. We leave Hamas, at least. ascendant at that time, in Gaza. Then he. says, "We can say to the American. Congress, we have no partner for peace.".

And he says, "We have from the Congress. a no one to talk to certificate. that says we have no one to talk to.". And it says we'll have no one to talk to. until Gaza is Norway. See you then. and. shalom. Okay, so for Ben Shapiro and his minor. birds and mindless pariting puppets out. there who believe him when he lies that. this was the gifting to the Palestinians.

of independence. What it was was it was. a lood scheme to divide and conquer and. destroy the Palestinian people so that. one day the Israelis could take the last. of their property from them. That's what. it was. And then when they put them. under siege, you know what they said, Lex? They said the people of the Gaza. Strip are hungry but not starving. And I. wonder if that rings a bell in your mind. where you've heard that before. That's what Walter Duranti wrote in the.

New York Times about the holy. in the same article where he said you. have to break a few eggs to make an. omelette. They're hungry but not starving, said Walter Duranti and Ariel Chiron's. men as they inflicted a holore on the. people of the Gaza Strip. That's again, you know, for the. cognitive dissonance are like, well, why. are we doing this then? Again, it's the. lobby. It's the compromise of the.

American political system. But if your. dissonance is telling you it can't be. that bad, your dissonance is wrong. Yes, it can too. That's exactly how they are. And because Americans, we we're. westerners. We have a a different. tradition. I mean, we were all even in. government school, they teach us that. every man is born equal. Not in every. way, but in terms of our rights that we. possess to own our own life and control. our own destiny. That's what we believe.

You know what? Meer Kahane, the rabbi. that was al Qaeda's first target in New. York City in 1990 in the United States, he gave an interview to Mike Wallace in. the late 1970s where he complains that. American Jews believe in all this Thomas. Jefferson crap. Well, we don't. It's us. versus our enemies. We will destroy. them. Now that was considered fascism by the.

Israeli Supreme Court then. That is the. Lakood party doctrine. Now every Arab, Palestinian, Muslim and Christian must. be killed andor forcibly removed from. the last of the 22% of measly stinking. what's left of historic Palestine there. I think what's happening in Gaza. is absolutely horrific. And I think the. US government should not be supporting.

that in any way. So how can we end it? So on October 7th, let's let's rewind. from October 7th. Why do we do the Abraham Accords under. Trump's first term? We did the Abraham. Accords because Saudi Arabia especially. and the other Sunni Arab kingdoms had. always promised that they would refuse. to officially normalize relations with. Israel until the Palestinians got a. deal, either an independent state of.

their own or equal rights and. citizenship in a single state. Now, what. Jared Kushner figured out was, well, we. can just print money, so what's your. price? And so what he did was he bought F-16s. for Bahrain, F-35s for UAE, debt. forgiveness for Sudan, and they made a. deal with Morocco that they would. recognize Morocco's illegal invasion and. seizure of the northern half of the. nation of Western Sahara. And then uh that would be essentially.

these countries bribes to normalize. relations with Israel. And they were. working on Saudi Arabia. Now, on. September the 22nd, 2023, Benjamin. Netanyahu gave a speech before the UN. General Assembly. You know, like he. likes to do with his visual aids. This. time, he held up a map of the Middle. East, the big red arrow across from. Israel to the Sunni Arab states of the. Gulf. And he said, "This is the new. Middle East." Well, that was an inside. joke. He was mocking Shimone Perez.

because Shimone Perez said, "We got to. deal with Arafat and the PLO Fatah and. and deal with a pal pseudo Palestinian. state at least. Then we can make peace. with the Sunni Arab states and have a. new Middle East. So Netanyahu is up. there crowing that under the Netanyahu. doctrine, he got the new Middle East. without giving in to the Palestinians in. any way. Now, of course, he frames it. like, "Oh, the Palestinians have been. holding peace hostage." When what he's.

really saying to them is, "Y'all are. screwed now, boy. Ain't nobody coming. for you. I got you. You never get in a. state of your own and independence, and. you're never getting citizenship. You're. going to live in those concentration. camps of yours until you're dead, and. we're done taking them from you. I win, you lose." That was his speech of. September 22nd, 2003. Two weeks later, Hamas broke out of. their pen and launched the October 7th. attack. And they did kill probably a.

thousand people as the Israelis killed. at least dozens, perhaps more than a. hundred of their own people by invoking. the Hannibal directive. Now, you might. remember the story of um an Israeli. soldier named uh I think it's Eisenkot. who had been captured by Hamas and taken. into the Gaza Strip back years ago. And. the Israelis ended up having to. negotiate like and release a thousand. Palestinian captives, not prisoners, because the Israelis hold them without.

trial, without any process whatsoever. They just kidnap them and hold them. So, they're hostages too, these. Palestinians. But they had to release a. thousand Palestinian hostages to get. their one Israeli hostage back. And they. said, "Never again are we going to do. that." So they invented a new doctrine. which says if one of their soldiers or. two of their soldiers is getting. successfully captured by Hamas and taken. back into the strip that they'll kill. their own soldiers as well as the. captives in order to prevent that from. happening. They called that the Hannibal. directive. Well, on October the 7th, and.

this is all from, first of all, very. astute American observers like Max. Blumenthal, Abu Al uh sorry, Ali Abu. Neima, and uh Brad Pierce at the Wayward. Rabbler. They all immediately noticed. this. But then it was double extra. triple superverified by the Israeli. press. Harets, wet, the Jerusalem Post. That's all you need to show that they. introduced what they call, and I think.

they probably made this up on the fly, mass Hannibal, which means not just kill. a soldier, but even if it's a little old lady who's. been kidnapped and is in the back of a. car on the way, any car on their way. back to to back to the Gaza Strip, they. bomb. They also used a tank to hit uh. and kill a house full of at least nine. civilians in one case in one of the. kibuts. Now, I'm not playing down what. Hamas did there. I am pointing out what.

Israel did. And this is a big part of. why they had to embellish what Hamas. did. Because look at these houses are. blown up. What happened here? Hamas only. had grenades. This is much more. destruction than that. All the cars at. the rave that were destroyed, they were. destroyed by helicopter fire, not by. Hamas. How could Hamas have destroyed. all those cars? They did not have the. ability to do that. And now, I'm not. saying who all was in those cars when. they were blasted at the rave and what. all every little thing that happened. there. But it's clear that Israel waged.

a bunch of the destruction on their own. people and deliberately so. And there's. video testimony of this girl talking. about there's shooting in a house and. her officers telling her to keep. shooting and all of these things. I. think she's even saying she defied one. of these orders at one point and said. she didn't want to keep doing it because. it didn't seem like it made sense to her. and that kind of thing. And so this is. part of why they embellished what Hamas. did. But of course then they also wanted. to do the the Belgian babies on. bayonets. That's from the first world.

war. all the lured stories of the Huns. atrocities against the Belgians and why. we have to go and stop them. And again, the Saddam Hussein and the Kuwaiti. babies thrown out of their incubators. These are the kinds of atrocities that. jerk that jerk tears. These are the. kinds of atrocities that get people to. change their mind and support a thing. that they otherwise would not. And when. in fact Hamas did kill unarmed women and. children and particularly I don't know. how many children but uh at least a few.

and many many unarmed civilians many. many women and so their their atrocities. were already were already scarlet they. already were absolutely guilty of war. crimes and what they had done that day. and in fact it was so bad that people. think I don't know man I'm not taking a. stance on. But I tend to doubt it, I guess, would. be my stance. Um, and I have simpler. explanations. But there are people who. think that Netanyahu let the attack.

happen because he wanted that kind of. horror show to be inflicted on his own. people so that he could get away with. doing what he's doing now. Because why? Because what Hamas did is what's letting. him get away with what he's doing now. He gave them this excuse just like Bin. Laden gave George Bush one. Only Israel. ain't going to be wrecked here. this is. not working out for Hamas the way they. hoped. And I think their primary. objective really was to take captives so. they'd have them to trade for their own. captives back for their own hostages to. get back. Um, but they went way too far.

They killed way too many innocent people. and then gave the Israelis the rit. Now, as far as the attack being successful, it's worth pointing out. We call it. October 7th because it was over by. supper time. Okay? It wasn't the second. week of October. It wasn't the autumn of. 23. It was one day that these captives were. out were able to break out of their.

concentration camp and commit some. atrocities. Right? This is not the. nation next door. Again, Contra Ben. Shapiro's. explicit lies that when he says, "Well, what would we do if Mexico was shooting. rockets across the Rio Grand into. Texas?" Well, Mexico is the name of the. national government in Mexico City and. its armed military force. If they were. firing rockets across the border into. Texas, well, we would have some.

negotiation to do, wouldn't we? Okay. or. worse. What we're talking about here is. not Mexico. We're talking about an. Indian reservation. We're talking about. people who were already conquered and. captured in 1967. who've been living under the. totalitarian control of this foreign. occupying army ever since then. We're. talking about the the closer equivalent. would be Nelson Rockefeller sending the.

National Guard to put down the riot in. Adica prison. and killing all the guards. along with the prisoners. This would be imagine maybe in an. earlier time an Indian reservation where. they break out and they commit some. atrocities, scalp some Anglo uh heads. and then what do we do? We go in there. and bomb and kill 100,000 of them. or if again because this is Israeli. territory. Okay, dare. No, de facto.

Absolutely. This is a ghetto. So, how. about if if the Trump government decided. to build a wall around South Chicago and. say, "We can't tolerate the violence of. the blacks of South Chicago anymore. Everybody knows that's one of the. highest crime rates in the country. We're just going to bomb them cuz. occasionally they break out of the black. part of town and hurt other people, too. So, we're going to enclose their ghetto. in giant concrete in razor wire walls, and then we're going to bomb them all to. death." That's what Israel is doing.

Fish in a barrel, a canned hunt. You. understand? Like a father abusing his. son, a helpless captive, right? A guard beating an inmate. Jeffrey Goldberg torturing some poor. Palestinian in his cell. Not a sovereign nation defending itself. from attack from another sovereign. nation of any kind. And Americans don't. understand this because they're called. Palestinians. And so, aren't they from a.

country called Palestine? Everybody's. got a country, right? But no, Israel is. on top of Palestine. So, no, they don't. have a Palestine. They don't have a. country. They don't have a government. If if Beta, the PA on the West Bank, if. they are trustees in an Israeli open air. prison, then Hamas is just the strongest. gang. They're the Crips of the Bloods or. the Latin Kings or the Aryan Nations. have taken over the prison in the Gaza. Strip. They're not the dulyeleed government of.

the people of Palestine. When George W. Bush forced those people to hold that. election in 2005, the majority of the. population of Gaza were children, were. minors, at least under 18. Okay? Could. not vote. The majority of them were. minors. That was in 2005. The last time they got a chance to vote, guess what? The majority of them are. minors still to this day. they have popular sovereignty behind. Hamas and bear collective responsibility.

for Hamas's crimes when as we mentioned. a previous era it was Israel that helped. to uh install Hamas in power in the Gaza. Strip in the first place helped their. rise their botched coup of well they did. the disengagement to empower them again. no one to talk to certificate bragging. about it then they did the botched coup. which maybe was deliberately bombed or I. don't know exactly what happened there, but that ended up with Hamas in charge. of the entire Gaza Strip. And then we.

have, as we know, and people can, you. might want to pull this up if you want. to and show them. It's by me and one of. my guys, Connor Freeman is his name, and. the article is called Netanyahu's. support for Hamas backfired. Yeah, right there. Second one. I'll tell. you a funny story. I did the Pierce. Morgan show the other day. I debated. Wesley Clark on Ukraine again. But while. I was on hold, Pierce Morgan was. whooping the Israeli ambassador. And I'm. not sure if it was the ambassador to. Britain or the ambassador to the United.

States, but um he was going after him so. hard. And at one point, it was so funny. You could see his face twist a little. bit cuz the guy realized what he said. after he said it that like, "Oops, this. undermines the narrative a little bit.". But the ambassador railed to Pierce. Morgan. Nobody elected Hamas. They're. not the legitimate power there. which is. yeah, that's right. He's railing against. Hamas, right? But what's he just did? What did he just do? He just told the. truth and acquitted the Palestinian. people of responsibility for Hamas. And.

then what did Pierce Morgan do? Heroically told the truth that you know. who did support Hamas? Benjamin Netanyahu and the Lakood. Oh, check that out. You know who you get to. kill? Anybody who's near somebody who. years ago supposedly may have voted for. Hamas to win a plurality. Well, you know who really voted for. Hamas? Benjamin Netanyahu did. So, who. gets the death penalty now?

They're willing to kill 20,000 children. or more so far, burying little babies. Imagine a little 5-year-old baby buried. alive in rubble and has to starve to. death for 5 days in there. That's what. Benjamin Netanyahu, the actual. owner, controller, creator of Hamas, boister of Hamas onto the hapless, helpless Palestinian people. They supposedly have popular sovereignty.

and chose Hamas. Netanyahu chose Hamas. for them. And he said over and over, "We. control the height of the flame. Anyone. who wants to thwart the establishment of. a Palestinian state must support Hamas. in Gaza so that we can keep the. Palestinians divided and so that we can. continue to tell American, again, we're. talking about Netanyahu here, so.

American idiots, absurd fools, that we. have no partner for peace. because we keep the terrorists in. charge. charge in Gaza. And you know. what's funny about this? Netanyahu has. been quoted repeatedly saying, "We. control the height of the flame." Three. different people said he said that to a. group of Lakood ministers. And then he denied it and his friends. denied it and said he never said that. even though we got all his buddies here.

bragging about how smart he is for doing. it that way, etc. But anyway, there's a. new documentary called the BB Files. It's all the footage is Shinbet national. police interrogation videos of Benjamin. Netanyahu and his disgusting wife Sarah. and all of their friends and including. Sheldon add and Miriam Add who gave. Donald Trump $600 million. to do whatever Israel says. And they're. all interrogated in there because Sarah.

Netanyahu is a beast who demands that. all of their friends give her jewelry. and champagne and cars and what I don't. know cars, all kinds of fancy things. And this is illegal in Israel. This is. absolutely against the letter of the. law. They are not allowed to accept. these gifts from wealthy people in this. way. They're totally compromised. He is. a guilty felon. 100% is a probably a. huge part of why he's keeping the war.

going as long as he can because they. won't put him in prison as long as he's. keeping the war going. But here's my. point. On video, Shinbet asks Prime. Minister Netanyahu, why do you support. Hamas in Gaza? Why are you leaning on. Qatar to give them billions of dollars? And Netanyahu says, "This is how we keep. the Palestinians divided, but we control. the height of the flame on video to the.

cops." Okay, so that means also that. everyone who said that that quote was a. lie is either a liar or a damned fool. Okay, I just had to make that point. because that's important that this is. absolutely true. Okay. They say the. Palestinians are responsible for Hamas. No. Benjamin Netanyahu is responsible. for Hamas. Benjamin Netanyahu owns the entire. chessboard.

Benjamin Netanyahu is backed by the. unlimited budget and military power of. the global superpower and all of his. myriad civilian and military. intelligence services. Hamas and the. Palestinians are pawns on his board. That's the fact. And if it's okay to. kill Palestinians because they are. nearby Hamas, then it's okay to kill. Benjamin Netanyahu because he is. literally, not figuratively, their.

greatest ally. And in a direct sense, not like, oh, America is Osama bin. Laden's indispensable ally. I mean, literally, he sent MSAD to Qatar to. demand that they give more money to. Hamas over and over and over again. and. his own men ratted him out for it. Okay, that's treason. He's the one who should. hang from the end of a rope, not the. people of the Gaza Strip who have been. killed. Probably a 100,000 of them have. been killed now, including torn to.

shreds, including they bomb their tents. They bury them alive and they quite. literally. herd them in to uh narrow yards. after starving them almost to death and. and bring them in to a narrow area. Then. they open the gate all at once. They. don't bring them in through some kind of. checkpoint. They make them they just open the gate.

and so that the people rush in a mad mob. rush to grab whatever food they can and. then these people are literally. starving. So the spirit of friendship. and cooperation falls aside and now I. will stab you so that I can feed my kid. today, dude. And so people, it's the. Hunger Games out there or worse, whatever analogy that you have to Soviet. communism is is it's the equivalent. It's the moral equivalent of Soviet. communism is what it is, Lex. It's the. worst thing in the world. It's the most.

barbarian regime in the world. Far worse. than the Chaikcoms. I mean, they have to. lie their ass off to try to pretend that. Beijing treats the Weaguers this way. Give me a break. The weaguers are kings. compared to what's happening to the. Palestinians right now. And the only. thing that makes Israel the second worst. government in the world is the United. States of America has the power to do. this, to help them do this to the. Palestinians, but also do it to the. Iraqis and the Syrians and the Yemenes. and whoever else Israel says as well.

But this is pure barbarianism. And I strongly urge, I know that you've. seen it. I strongly urge your audience. to go watch this interview of this man. Anthony Aguilera who is a special forces. guy that's above the Rangers but below. Delta but that's second tier special. operations army special operations. forces the green berets been fighting in. the terror wars all these years fought. in Iraq I don't know how old the guy is. if he fought in Iraq war I he certainly.

fought in Iraq war II and in Afghanistan. and and had been deployed 12 times. Tucker said including to the stands in. Central Asia and Vietnam I I don't know. who he's killing in Vietnam. Maybe just. training there. I don't know. >> He also did an interview on Breaking. Points with Saga and Crystal. >> Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that. So, the story is that they demonized UNRA, which was the UN relief refugee relief. agency. What refugees? Well, 80% of the. population of the Gaza Strip are. refugees from what we call Israel. proper. Israeli Jews stole that land.

from them. That's their land. That's why. they live in Gaza. They're not from. Gaza. 80% of them are not from Gaza or. they are but their parents and. grandparents and great-grandparents were. not. They are refugees there. So, ever. since then, UNRA has been there to. provide humanitarian relief for these. poor people who've been cut off from. their country on the other side of the. razor wire. And so, UNRA was in charge. of distributing the aid. But then they. lied, of course, is ridiculous. propaganda that UNRA had been involved. in the October 7th attack. And there may.

have been one guy who had worked for. them before who said something or maybe. even participated to some small degree, but it's a ridiculous charge against the. entire organization. And as this guy. Aguilera explains, they had I believe I. can't remember the number. Was it did do. you remember if he said they had 40. sites around the country? I believe he. said they had 40 sites around the strip. where they were delivering aid to. people. when they closed that down, the. Israelis replaced it with this new uh.

humanitarian relief foundation or global. humanitarian foundation, I think it's. called, GHF, right? Um, and they only. have four stations and three of them are. near the Egyptian border and only one of. them is what they call the in the what. they call the Narazim corridor, I. believe it's pronounced. That's like. halfway through the strip. The people of. the north have nothing. There's no aid. coming into the people of the north at. all. They're starving to death up there.

And and he says there's only these four. places. And then here's what we're. talking about, Lex, when we're talking. about killing the starving people as. they line up for aid. What it is, and. this has been explained in Harets, by. the way, they have senior officials and. army people talking to Harets about. this. This is the most important liberal. daily in Israel. The Israeli New York. Times basically um has firsthand. reporting from enlisted and officers, perpetrators saying that yes, it's true. We do this. Okay. Then Aguilera tells.

the story the best and has some video. and shows. What it is is this. They open the the food place early in. the morning for this riot where. everybody's supposed to come and rush. and grab the food. So people come. walking and they force them to walk. through war zones to get to the places. where there's firing going on anyway. Force them to walk for I don't know how. many miles this is 12 kilometers. So um. 10 miles. a hell of a walk man I don't know 8.

miles something still incredible long. walk for poor hungry starving people. They get all the way there and then but. from the IDF's point of view, they're. supposed to go this way and then they're. supposed to go that way. They're. supposed to go over this hill and then. come around this way and then you line. up at the thing. But there's no signs. anywhere and there's no little metal. barricades like a Black Sabbath show or. something for people to follow. So, how. do they direct the Palestinians foot. traffic?

With machine guns, with artillery, and. tank rounds. There's an invisible line. You'll know. you cross it when I blow your head off. And when the mob of Palestinians coming. down for their food, when they can see. that people on the edges of the crowd. are being shot and killed, they know. that, oh, I guess that's where the line. is. That's how they're supposed to know. where the invisible lines are drawn. Aguilera said, he asked them, "Why you. just put up a sign that says go this. way?" And they go, "Nah, that's too.

expensive.". So instead, they shoot at them not just. with fully automatic rifles, but with. artillery and with tank rounds. They. blast him to hell in the name of crowd. control. And he says that they say, "Oh no, we're. just shooting over their heads and. shooting at their feet and shooting. behind them to direct them." You imagine. directing civilian traffic that way with. machine gun fire. So what happens is. they all die. He says they're coming. down this thing. They're shooting over. the heads of these guys, but behind them.

is a is a hillside where people are. coming down there. So then when the f. the sun finishes coming up, there's just. roses just dead bodies everywhere. And then he says then the Israelis go, "Oh, Hamas did it. Come on, man." Like, yeah, you know, would be Hamas in Bosnia did. some false flag attacks in 1995. That's. not what's happening here. Okay? These. people are being slaughtered. Starving.

people are being brought in and. masquered. As Tucker Carlson rightly. said, men were hanged to death from the. neck for this at Nuremberg, murdering prisoners. This is if you seen Schindler's List, there's a scene in there which I don't. even know if this really happened or. not. Probably did. What the hell? Or if. this is just Spielberg shows one of the. concentration camp guards shooting the. Jews for target practice. That's what. they do. There's numerous reports coming.

in in just the last couple of weeks that. there has clearly been well I don't know. clear I shouldn't say numerous. I saw. that there's an is a British doctor. saying this and then there was someone. who said that he confirmed it, although. I wasn't sure how serious he was or not. I shouldn't take that, but it seemed. like a very credible report in the first. place. And in fact, the British doctor. is at least claiming that he's passing. on reports for other doctors. And what. are they seeing? They're seeing. Palestinian children who all have the.

same signature type of wound to the same. body part. One day they're all shot in. the genitals. children. The next day. they're all shot in the elbow. The next. day they're all shot in the knee or in. the heart. And what's happening here is. the Israelis are shooting them for fun. for target practice. Just like the Nazis. in Schindler's List, killing the little. girl in the red coat. That's what. they're doing. They're burying them. alive. They're starving them to death.

and then forcing them into mobs and then. machine gunning them. Right? If this was. a movie, you'd say it was too over the. top. It's too fake. It can't be true. If. it was if anybody leaned left and they. heard this about the communists, they'd. say, "No, it's right-wing propaganda.". Like, no, dude. This is how they are. This is exactly how they are. And it's. exactly how they treat the Palestinians. They do not recognize their humanity. They are nwords. They are gooks. They.

are goyam grasshoppers. That means it's okay to kill them. All of them. The prime minister gave a. speech to the officer corps where he. said the enemy is Amalecch out of a. 3,000year-old Bible story where Jehovah. supposedly told the ancient Hebrews to. wipe out a tribe called the Amalecch and. kill every last man, woman, and child.

and baby and oxen and wipe them off the. face of the Earth. Now, Lex, nobody. thinks that God whispered to Benjamin. Netanyahu and said the Palestinians or. Amalecch, right? This is just a bunch of. crap. Even if you believe every single. word of the Bible as the literal. inspired word of God from back then, that ain't got a thing to do with this. now, other than a cynical, lying, thieving murderer invoking a god who.

says it's okay to kill children. that. you must that you are commanded to kill. them all. And this was his orders to the officer. corps. And then I got to read Liz Wolf. in Reason magazine every morning telling. me that Israel's goal is fighting Hamas. Benjamin Netanyahu said in May, "We are. destroying all of their homes so they.

have nowhere to go back to so that we. can force them all to leave.". And I gotta read Liz Wolf in Reason. magazine. telling me that Lood means well and. they're just trying to protect. themselves from armed terrorists. when they are explicitly and. deliberately. slaughtering children, shooting toddlers. in the head, shooting pregnant women in.

the stomach, bombing refugees tents with 2,000 lb. bombs. It is a genocide. They It's not And that doesn't just mean. a giant massacre and it doesn't just. mean ethnic cleansing. They are. attempting to destroy the Palestinian. people as Palestinian people. They have. bombed all of their universities and. schools, all of their government offices. that have any records of land ownership. or family histories. They bombed every.

last hospital in this strip. Lex, remember when we argued about whether or. not they bombed the parking lot that one. time at the start of the war? They. destroyed them all. You want to talk. about babies in incubators? There was a. hospital in the Gaza Strip. This is an. absolute guaranteed verified fact. If. you want to stop and pause and look it. up, we can do that. Otherwise, you know, your audience can surely find this. These Palestinian doctors were. threatened and told, "We are going to. absolutely kill every single last one of. you if you don't get out of that.

hospital right now." and they refused to. leave and said, "We are protecting a a. NICU full of premature babies in their. incubators and we will not leave them.". And the Israelis said, "You have to. leave or we're going to blow the place. up. But if you do leave, we promise that. we will take possession of these. premature babies and protect them." And. then you know what they did? They left. them in their incubators to die. All of. them. and the media went in there and.

found a room full of corpses. So, under. George HW Bush's theory, America has to. launch a war against Israel now and. carpet bomb Tel Aviv because this is. proof of Israel's intent to quote. systematically dismantle Palestine. That was the excuse for Iraq War I and. it was a lie. This is true. It's true. And Lex, they like it. They think it's. funny. They don't give a damn. They.

don't give a damn to kill a premature. baby. That premature baby was going to. grow up to be a Palestinian one day. Nits make lice. Kill them all. That's the doctrine. Again, harets, there are free fire. zones. If anyone is between here and. here, you just kill them. There's no. sign that says this is a freef fire. zone. If it's an 11-year-old boy walking. with his little sister, you shoot and. kill them both. kill anything that moves just like.

America and Vietnam. This is like James Madison Fallujah. Worse, worse. And in fact, as as. Aguilera says, he goes, "Man, I've been. all over the terror wars. I've never. seen anything like this." He told the. BBC, he said, "What's it like?" It's. like Terminator 2. Remember Terminator. 2? Where it's after the Hbombs have hit. Los Angeles. That's what it's like, right? absolute horror show. And man, it's America's fault. No less than the.

Yemeni war was the American Saudi war. This is the American Israeli. genocide. It's not a war. It's a. slaughter. It is a canned hunt against a. helpless captive. uh you know, prisoner population. And just like happened on September. 11th, just like happened to that couple. that were assassinated outside of the. Israeli embassy, uh just like what. happened with the guy attacked with the. makeshift flamethrower in Boulder, Colorado, and I can't prove this yet,

but you mark my words and we'll see. whether I'm right, that the guy that. attacked New Orleans on New Year's Day, drove his truck down Bourbon Street, killed 12 people, and injured another. few dozen. And then we're very lucky in. the sense that when he finally crashed, he crashed into a backhoe or a bulldozer. at the end of Bourbon Street. And there. just happened to be a group of six cops, I think it was, standing right there. So. when he crashed and he got out of his. truck with his gun, they blew him away. Otherwise, he could have killed many,

many more people. Who was he? He was an. American Army veteran who had converted. to Islam and signed up with the Islamic. State. And what are the chances, Lex, that on New Year's Eve 2024, that this man is motivated do to do this. for any other reason than American. support for Israel and the Gaza Strip? There's a 99% chance that that was what. he was ranting about to his parents in. his video messages that he recorded on. his way from Houston to New Orleans. Just the same as Omar Matine uh.

complaining about Obama killing the. women and children in Syria in the. nightclub massacre of uh I'm sorry what. year? 2000 I'm sorry the the Orlando. night pulse massacre. Um, this is. blowback from American foreign policy. And again, not for being a good friend. to a good friend, but for being a loyal. ally to a state that doesn't give a damn. about us that celebrates when September. 11th happens to us because it means that. we will now be easier to manipulate and.

put into the service of carrying out. their foreign policy goals, and spend. our treasure that kill our men that. empower their enemies, requiring us to. do even more to fight for them. against. them back and forth over and over for. decades. And all we get out of it is. confiscated wealth and dead civilians. And and I'm terrified quite honestly. I. know there are a lot of people who kind. of downplay this. I am legitimately.

terrified of bin Laden terrorism. I. ain't afraid of the Shiites. I don't. think the Ayatollah wants to fight us. And I don't think Hezbala is going to do. nothing to the United States of America. without his say so. And he ain't giving. it. It's the Bin Laden who tried to. knock our towers down in 93 and who did. in 2001, killing thousands of our people. and they're still here. They did San. Bernardino. They uh had a failed attack.

on the subway in New York. They had a. failed attack on a marathon in New York. and New Jersey. They had a successful. attack in Boston, at Fort Hood, in. Little Rock, Arkansas, Pensacola, Florida, and Corpus Christi, Texas. These are all in our era, post September. 11th, terrorist attacks against our. people because of our government serving. Israel's interests, primarily in the. Middle East. So there's a strong case to. be made that what's happening in Gaza is. going to lead to the growth of uh the.

increased number of bin Laden in the. world. >> and dead American civilians as a result. of that. >> So basically it makes United States less. safe. >> Absolutely. >> And. zooming up on the broader world, it. makes the entire world less safe. including Israel. >> That's right. It's the most cynical. thing, man. You know, like there's an. interview, you probably read this. before. A lot of people are familiar. with this. Sabin Brazinski was. interviewed by a French magazine in.

1998. No lueller. or some kind of thing. I don't speak. French, man. And they interviewed him. and they said, this is in ' 98 now, so. this is after the Taliban have come to. power. I think it's before the embassy. attack, but it's after Kobar. It's after. the first world trade center bombing and. the the um national guard attack of 90. of 95 in Saudi and the reporter asks. him, "Hey man, so all our support for. the mujadin in Afghanistan in the 80s,

that was your brilliant idea. It's going to help lead to the rise of. all this terrorism. So what do you think. about that?" He says, "Sar, are you. kidding me? What's a couple of stirred. up Muslims. versus the liberation of Eastern Europe. and the destruction of Soviet communism? And we know what we're doing. And he. says in that same interview that we were. not necessarily I love the way he says. this. You could apply this exactly to.

the Ukraine war. We were not trying to. provoke them into invading Afghanistan, but we were knowingly increasing the. probability that they would, which is of. course the exact same thing. And so, you. know, that's the attitude. Again, terrorism is a small price to pay for. being a superpower. If you get to be the. superpower, that's how they look at us. Some people partying on Bourbon Street. on New Orleans. Like to you, you might.

say that is a sacrifice I'm not willing. to pay. Who could be more innocent than. people partying on Bourbon Street? What. could be more American than having fun. with your friends and family on New. Year's Eve? Why should they have to be. crucified for Israel's sins? It makes no. sense at all for the American people to. have to put up with this. But where you. would say no enough intolerable, they. would say, well, who cares? A few.

expendable civilian, they might as well. be Afghans, they might as well be. Palestinians, the people of New Orleans. George Bush doesn't care about them. Nor. does Barack Obama or Joe Biden or Donald. Trump for that matter. The next time. there's a terrorist attack, you and I. already know what's going to happen. And. they're going to blame it on. fundamentalist radical Islam which makes. evil people hate good people and want to. kill us. Now we have no choice but to do.

with whatever what do you want us to do. next. BB whatever he said is whatever we. have to do next. The next time that we. have to pay the price for what Israel. did the last time. And I'm sick and I am. tired of it. I I think there's a really. big deeper human nature point that. you've spoken to over the last several. hours, which is uh trying to defeat. terror with military force. over the past 30 years. We have learned.

the lesson that that only creates more. terror. >> Yeah. And which they don't mind again. cuz it just gives them more to do. And. because again, the Bin Laden are over. there, not over here. And they like. killing Serbs and Russians and Shiites. And so that's all cool. >> But also with the proliferation of. nuclear weapons. >> I'm glad you mentioned that. Guess what? The le which are the bin Laden of. Pakistan. There's a a journalist named. Steve Call who wrote um Ghost Wars about. Afghanistan and he wrote Director at S. about the Pakistani uh ISI their secret.

intelligence service who backed the. Taliban and backed the bin Laden. Well, uh, the leashar ea was, um, one of their. groups and they seized, according to. Steve Call, they seized control of an. Indian ship for a time before special. operations troops were able to go in. there and kill them all off. Well, that. ship had nuclear weapons on board. Apparently, the jihadists didn't know. that. They probably would not have been.

able to access them or know how to use. them, but still. Bin Laden jihadists seized control of a. ship that had atomic bombs on it. That. is not nothing, right? It's just like. bin Laden almost toppled one tower over. into the other. Let's start paying. attention now instead of later. Which by. the way, Ramsay bin Alib before he fled, he wrote letters to all the New York. papers saying he bombed the World Trade.

Center as revenge for American support. for Israel and bombing Iraq from bases. in Saudi just as his uncle colleague. Shake Muhammad uh would say years later. after doing September 11th. Um it's. always about Israel, dude. Always was. Again, even the dual containment was. always about Israel. Zakuir's guy that. said we had to stay in Saudi. So, you. know, I know Dubitz is watching this. right now and saying, "See, see, he's. blaming it all on the Jews." But that's. not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is. that Israel, which calls itself the.

Jewish state and happens to be run by. Jewish men, and that's what their thing. is, that they have interests that are. very different from ours, and that their. lobbyists and their, as Justin would. call it, their amen corner in the United. States has their interests at heart, and. those interests are opposite of ours. as. Justin I know would hasten to point out. that the majority of American Jews. opposed Iraq War II. And you might say, "Well, yeah, but that's cuz they're. liberal Democrats." Okay, fine. Well, they're not Ariel Chiron's men, are.

they? More American Jews um per capita opposed. Iraq War II than any other ethnic or. religious group as they divided it up in. the polls at that time. Right? So it's. it's clearly not the lie that Mark. Dubowitz would try to put in my mouth in. order to discredit what I'm saying. But. what I am saying is some pretty ugly. true things about the role of the Israel. lobby in the United States. And again,

just as Mir Shimemer says, they have to. work this hard. they have to spend this. much money and they have to go around. calling everybody a Nazi because that's. what it takes to get Israel to keep. doing what Israel wants. Um the US has. different interests that we would pursue. otherwise. And so it takes this. extraordinary effort to bend our empire. to their will and including yes even. supporting the empire itself because as.

Irving Crystal and Norman Pod Horitz. probably the two most important. neoconservative leaders of that. generation both said in the 1970s. that this is their words. I'm not saying. this and I'm not saying people took. their advice. I'm saying this is what. these two neocon nuts said was this is. I'm virtually certain this is the. podoritz quote is Jews don't like large. defense budgets but we need to support. them because we have to make sure that.

under whatever excuse we keep America. engaged in the world so that it is. available to help Israel. And this is a. big part of why they're China hawks, why. they're Russia hawks, why they're. anything hawks, why they're Venezuela. hawks, because to them the greatest, this is what Brett Stevens said in the. New York Times, the former editor of the. Jerusalem Post, who's now regular writer. at the New York Times. He he said the. very same thing about keeping America. available to protect Israel. And then he.

says in the same article, but it's. totally an anti-semitic canard that. anybody who supports Israel and supports. these wars does so at America's expense. or in any way contrary to America's. interests. But then he's the one who's. saying that's what we have to do is bend. America to Israel's interests. It. couldn't be anything more anti-American. than that. And I would encourage people. to read George Washington's farewell. address. I mean, the guy was a brilliant. genius and and he wrote the thing. himself and it's probably four or 5,000.

words on foreign policy where he says. that we should always issue entangling. alliances with any portion of the. foreign world because we'll form. unnatural passionate attachments to the. interests of these other nations and. then that will divide the people here. It'll lead to all kinds of acrimony and. accusations and eventually you'll have. the partisans of foreign nations in. charge and they will denounce as. unpatriotic.

the Americans who don't want to share. their allegiance with another power and. all of these things. You couldn't have a. 21st century author write it any more. eloquently or convincingly than George. Washington himself in his farewell. >> What a truly great man George Washington. was. >> He had his flaws, but yeah. Well, yes. Yes. Jefferson, too. All of them. Yeah. But I'm grateful for this country and. these men that founded the country on.

these settle principles that. revolutionized human history. Absolutely. right. >> And we have to make sure we carry the. flag of those ideas forward. I. absolutely think that and this is why. I'm a libertarian. To me, libertarianism. is real American distilled. To me, the. Declaration of Independence, that is the. North Star. Everybody's born free. And I. don't even have to prove it to you cuz. I'm armed. And I'm telling you, dude, I'm not giving up. You understand? That's what it says. >> Me, too. >> Self-evident to me. Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> I don't have an argument. I'm just. saying. And And that's the American. creed. And And that's what I believe in. I believe that essentially all of. liberalism and conservatism and. socialism are all deviations from the. true American way, which is liberty and. property and and and the individual's. right to determine their own destiny. That is what it's all about. And if we. lived that, I mean, imagine being afraid. Germany and Japan are going to rise back. up again. This whole time, we never.

needed to do any of this. All we had to. do was be free. We could have done as. Jeen Kurpatre said abandoned the entire. empire been a normal country in a normal. time this whole time stayed out of all. the world's conflicts perfected our. republic to the best of our ability made. political and individual liberty our. highest political goal and shown the. world how it's done. Y'all's bills of. rights ain't good enough not like ours. is. Y'all's independent judiciaries. aren't independent enough not like ours.

Y'all's rule of law is too subject to. the will of men. You need to really. encode this thing and follow it like in. the deal, right? We could have I one. time humiliated Neil Ferguson's wife, Hersa Ali, if you know her, she's the. atheist ex-Muslim little pet mascot of. the war party there that they trapes. around and have her demonize Muslims and. whatever. and I humiliated her in a. debate in front of a bunch of people at.

a Freedom Fest in Las Vegas. And it was. funny because at the end of the debate, um the uh the host of the debate uh said. to me that, "Wow, you made her case. better than she did and then you. destroyed it." And my case that I was. making was about that there are real. problems in the Muslim world. Like for. example, the worst thing probably is the. female uh genital mutilation, female. circumcision they call it in Eastern. Africa and in Kurdistan is where that.

seems to be the the worst uh places. where those traditions are still. continued to this day. And then you have. of course the brutality and the. corruption of the dictatorships of uh. North Africa and of the Gulf. You have. just the absolute widespread accepted. custom of child abuse among the poshunes. of Afghanistan and Pakistan, especially. Afghanistan. I don't know as much about. in Pakistan. Um you have of course the.

absolute tyranny over women in almost. all of these countries where they're. made to wear the hijab or the veil or. even a burka uh if whether they want to. or not and these kinds of things. Whatever. We could go on and on here, Lex, about the imperfections of these. countries. But guess what? You know. what's the worst thing about Somalia and. Libya, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, and. Pakistan? America is the worst thing about all. those countries. The violence that our.

country has brought to them. The. absolute destruction, the wholesale. wanting and cruel violence against. populations that never did anything to. us. Not one of these groups had the. slightest thing to do with September. 11th, unless you want to say that Omar. should have just slit bin Laden's throat. in 99. I guess I'd agree with you about. that. But you know, the axis of evil, Iran, Iraq, and Syria, none of them had.

anything to do with September 11th. There wasn't a single Iraqi, Syrian, or. Iranian on those planes or behind any of. that at all. Obviously, the only reason. they put North Korea in the acts of evil. is cuz if they put Syria in, you'd have. went, "Wait a minute. This speech was. written in Tel Aviv. Dude, what does. this have to do with Osama bin Laden who. killed our guys who Bush has already let. get away? Oh, you want to do something? Let's end with this for this part of our. section before we move on to the Cold. War. To to show just how much our government.

cares about the American people's. interests here, see if you can find. George Bush from March 2002. And the quote would be, "I'm truly not. concerned about him." Bin Laden. Uh during White House news conference on. March 13th, 2002, President George W. Bush stated concerning Osama bin Laden. that he was not truly concerned about. him. That's a quote. This statement. generated controversy, particularly when.

Senator John Kerry brought it up during. a presidential debate in 2004, according. to. >> Well, and screw John Ky. This ain't no. got nothing to do with sticking up for. him. And you know, in my book, I quote. the entire statement here because I. would I would not want anyone to. mistakenly believe that I quoted any of. this out of context. It's one of those. things we're like, "Nope, let's go ahead. and see everything that he has to say.". And to our benefit, George W. Bush is. only so smart and only so good at. getting away with this. Um he would like.

he clearly has had conversations with. his staff about how we're work we have. to change the subject really from Osama. to Saddam and it's a little clumsy and a. little difficult to do but we're going. to have to kind of figure out how to do. that and so this is W. Bush sort of. taking a stab at it, except that he's. just not up to the task, right? So, he. can only be as smooth as he is in trying. to make these statements. And I would uh.

I would argue it does not work out too. well for him. But it makes it, I think, very clear to us just frankly like how. much contempt they have for us. You. know, George W. Bush, it really meant a. lot to people. Lex, when he climbed up. on that fire truck and he said, "I hear. you and we all hear you and the rest of. the world will hear you soon." People. really were like, "Man, we need a leader. and we got one." Can you imagine Bill.

Clinton being even pretend macho enough. to act like that? When America needed a. man, there was W. Bush, right? And and. people believed so hard in him after. that. And then he ruthlessly exploited. their goodwill and their faith in him in. order to manipulate them and lie to them. to use their sons to go to a war for his. own reasons that he knew had nothing to.

do with protecting us from terrorism. In. fact, again, W. Bush is so bad at this, he told Katie Kurrick on CBS News, "One of the hardest parts of my job is. connecting Iraq to the war on terrorism. because he he right that's all he can do. he sputters oops was I supposed to say. it like that I guess probably not right. that was because what's he saying he. knows it is the most difficult part of. his job is trying to figure out how to. get people to believe that this.

aggressive war has anything to do with. defending ourselves from that other. thing that happened that one time you. know when he clearly was just opuscating. and. >> exclusive. >> Mr. President, in your speeches now, you. rarely talk or mention Osama bin Laden. Why is that? >> Wait, pause real quick. >> The American people, >> forgive me for stipulating this is 6. months after the September 11th attack. Okay, sorry. Go ahead. >> Also, can you tell the American people. you have any more information? If you. know if he is dead or alive,

deep in your heart, don't you truly. believe that until you find out if he is. dead or alive, you won't really. eliminate the threat of Well, >> deep in my heart, I know the man's on. the run, if he's alive at all. And uh I I uh you know, who knows if. he's hiding in some cave or not. Uh we. hadn't heard from him in a long time. And the idea of focusing on one person. uh is um really indicates to me people. don't understand the scope of the.

mission. Uh terror is bigger than one. person. and uh he he's just he's he's a he's a. person who's now been marginalized. Um his network is his host government. has been destroyed. Um he's the ultimate parasite who found. weakness, exploited it and um. um met his match. uh he is uh you know as I mentioned in.

my speeches I do mention the fact that. this is a fellow who is willing to. commit youngsters to their death and he. himself tries to hide if in fact he's. hiding at all. So I I don't know where. he is, nor you know, I just don't spend. that much time on him. Ellie, to be. honest with you, I'm I'm more worried. about making sure that our soldiers are. well supplied, that the strategy is. clear, that the coalition is strong, that when we find uh enemy bunched up. like we did in Charie Code Mountains, that the that the military has all the.

support is need it needs to go in and do. the job which they did. And uh there. will be other battles in Afghanistan. There's going to be other uh struggles. like Sherry Code and I'm just as. confident about the outcome of that of. those future battles as uh as I was. about Sherry Code where our soldiers are. performing brilliantly. We're tough. We're strong. They're well equipped. We. have a good strategy. We are showing the. world we know how to fight a a a. guerilla war with conventional means.

But don't you believe that the threat. that bin Laden imposed won't truly be. eliminated until he is found either dead. or alive? >> Well, as I say, we hadn't heard much. from him and uh I wouldn't necessarily. say he's at the center of any command. structure. And you know, again, I don't know where. he is. I uh I. I repeat what I said. I truly am not. that concerned about him. I know he is. on the run. I was concerned about him. when he had taken over a country.

>> Yeah. And then uh of course we know and. we've talked about the events that. followed. >> Yeah. I gotta say again, I guess just to. finish this segment up to reiterate, I. think our highest priority really. And. in fact, as much as I like seeing Tulsi. Gabbard perse persecute the Russia gate. felons who framed President Trump for. treason and deserve to be banished with. their families from North America. forever. Um, I really wish that Tulsi.

Gabbard actually only had one priority. in the entire world, which is protecting. us from bin Laden terrorism. I'm serious about that. These guys are. coming back here. And now, it's true. I. should stipulate again, Israel loves Al. Qaeda and ISIS. As long as they're. killing Shiites, they've got a pretty. good relationship with Al Qaeda in. Syria. Now, last December, Abu Muhammad. Al Jalani, the leader of al-Qaeda in. Iraq and Syria, broke out of his pen and. sacked Damascus with the help of Turkey.

and Israel. Benjamin Netanyahu went to. the border, gave a press conference, and. took credit for it himself. Okay, that. and Ben Shapiro got on there and said, "Yeah, it's al Qaeda taking over, but. that's good because at least they're. pushing the Shiites out. This is somehow. the leader of American conservatism. You. tell me how that worked." But yeah, anyway. Um, right now overall Israel has a very. close relationship with al Qaeda. But. then again, so did Bill Clinton and they. still attacked us, right? Just because. we're supporting them here doesn't mean.

they won't attack us there. And we're. still motivating them to come at the. United States. And and especially when. you're talking like lone wolf cooks. where it can be just one jerk with a. rifle can do a hell of a lot of damage. whether anybody on the internet even. recruited him to do it or not. Um, and. especially with real uh ability to. recruit there. And again, just like. always, man, just like with the FBI. enttrapments, there's almost 300, more. than 300 FBI enttrapments on terrorism.

charges. Trevor Arensson is the greatest. journalist on that question. He wrote a. book called The Terror Factory about the. FBI. And every time they entrap some. idiot into a bin Laden plot, what do. they tell him? Don't you hate freedom? No. They tell him, "Isn't it impossible. to tolerate the violence that George. Bush/ Barack Obama slash Donald Trump. slash Joe Biden are bringing to the. people of the Middle East, and don't you. want to do something about it? Here's. $10,000. Say you love Osama into the. microphone, kid." And he goes, "Yeah,

I'm really angry about American foreign. policy. I love Osama. Give me $20,000.". And off to the penitentiary he goes. And. that's how they get him. every time they. cite American foreign policy. Do you. think that there's a six figure salary. paid FBI informant in this country. anywhere that's going to try to recruit. a terrorist by citing freedom? You know what's really bad about. Americans is they let three or four. million Muslims live here and go to. whatever mosque they want and don't. bother them at all. And it's fine. Oo,

that enrages us. Oh, we hate that. America for all their freedom of. religion where a tiny Muslim minority is. able to practice in peace and security. That ain't it. That's not how an FBI. informant recruits uh dupe into a plot. They cite American foreign policy 100%. of the time. So the FBI knows same thing. that I know. Same thing that the FBI. testified to the 9/11 commission. I. think they identify with the Palestinian. issue and I think that's why they're.

taking revenge against the United States. of America. And so what do we get from. Israel on all this? Like maybe we need. to invite Duboitz back in here so he can. tell us what is one thing that Israel. has ever done for us. They helped Obama. back al Qaeda in Syria, but that was. Obama helping them back al Qaeda in. Syria. They helped Ronald Reagan sell missiles. to the Ayatollah. when he was back in Saddam at the very. same time.

I guess we owe him big for that. Otherwise, they steal our secrets and. sell them to the Soviets or to the. Chinese. uh including like the Chinese supersonic. sea skimming missiles. They got those. from American designs. Pilford by the. Israelis. Jeff Stein from Spy Talk when. he's not being an insane Russia gate. lunatic. Poor Jeff. I used to respect. him. But Jeff Stein reported numerous. times that the FBI and CIA do a report.

Actually, they made them stop doing this. report because every year they said that. after Russia and China, Israel is the. worst country that spies on the United. States of America and is the greatest. security threat for the counter. inelligence agents in the United States, trying to hold them at bay. Russia, China, and Israel are the countries that. spy on us the most. again, including. Bill Clinton, and they tried to. blackmail him with their information. about Bill Clinton cheating on his wife.

They're just a security threat to the. United States of America. I'd buy anybody to to make a coherent. argument that's not based on just pure. lies and sophistry. Quick bathroom break. once more and then let's do that cold. war, man. I'm having fun. So, like we talked about provoked, you. wrote a book on uh cold war 2.0. >> Mhm. >> How Washington started the new cold war. with Russia and the catastrophe in.

Ukraine. So, can you lay out the history. and the mechanism of how this went down? Yes. The book is divided by presidents. Those. are the chapters. And I go through I start with HW Bush. We have a few flashbacks to the fall of. the Soviet or or earlier days of the. cold war in the Reagan years, but. basically we start with the end of the. last cold war and the overthrow of the. Soviet Union by the Russian government.

led by Boris Yeltson at that time at the. end of 1991. Red flag came down on. Christmas Day 1991. Never forget it. And. people can watch that on YouTube. There's a great Ted Cppel special about. it. Uh ABC News, really good thing. Um, and so that was the end of Soviet. communism. And. then the question was, well, now what? And the answer was, America's got to. stay. If America leaves, and by the way,

the Soviets, I think, and Jeffrey Sax. said this the other day on Pierce. Morgan, I think. No, no, no. Yeah, I. think that's right. That the Soviets. actually agreed with that. that as James. Baker put it in his discussions with. Gorbachov, he's like, "Hey, would you. prefer an independent. potentially nuclear armed Germany with. its own foreign policy or wouldn't you. prefer that we stay in Germany?" And the.

Soviets said, "Actually, we like you. guys better than the Germans, so yes, we. we would even agree with that." Now, the. purpose of NATO in the first place, according to his first general. secretary, Lord Isme, the Brit, was to. keep the Soviets out, sorry, the. Americans in, the Germans down, and the. Soviets out. So, you replace the Soviets. with the Russians, right? But then, so. the idea is we're not leaving. Again, this is the era of the defense plan and.

guidance. America will dominate the. planet. You can call it empire. You can. call it dominance. You can call it. preeeminence or um. or primacy. Uh that's Zubzinski like to call it uh. Crystalin Kagan called it benevolent. global hegemony. This is the unipolar moment of Charles. Crowutamemer. Um and in fact in his. rejoinder to Jeene Kirkpatrick he said. we should stop at nothing short of.

global domination. And so this was the idea and in the. defense plan and guidance just as in the. famous study by the project for new. American century Bill Crystal and Robert. Kagan's group that was called rebuilding. America's defenses that came out in. 1998. And by the way you can find I'm. pretty sure you can find both at scott. horton.org/fairuse /f fair use the. defense plan and guidance for 1994 again. written in 1992 and there are two. different versions of it they made them.

rewrite it but it's essentially the same. thing and then the project for new. American centuries rebuilding America's. defenses. and these are basic neocon doctrine for. the end of the 20th century. and where they say we have to stay in. the Middle East to contain Saddam. Hussein first and foremost freed. Zachariah said in the '90s Saddam. Hussein is our lynch pit in the Middle. East. If he do, if he did not exist, we. would have to invent him. Get it as an. enemy to have so we have an excuse to.

stay. So um. uh we have to expand in the Middle East. and this is the whole story as we've. told so far here. But then also we have. to expand NATO. That's the North. Atlantic Treaty Organization, America's. military alliance with Britain, France, and the other Western democracies, including Western Germany, and now. Germany and the rest as we've. incorporated more and more in Eastern. Europe as well. Our military alliance, we have to expanded into Eastern Europe. And there's a huge question at the time.

about like the obvious thing was. after our great peaceful victory here. I. mean, for people who are too young for. this and don't understand or something. like if you were to ever believe in. magic or God or miracles or something. like that kind of a thing, the Soviet. Union. essentially just fell away in peaceful. revolutions and simple withdrawals in. almost every case. Now, the dictator in.

Romania and his wife were put up against. the wall and machine gunned to death. Civil war broke out in Tajikhstan I. think and there was fighting between. Armenia and Azerbaijan. and it was not perfect but man on the. sliding scale of grading things on a. curve flex it was perfect man it was you. could not have had magic wishes come. true in a way to make the Soviet Union. just dissolve away the way they did that. kind of peaceful victory was the kind of.

thing where it was like how best in deep. senses of that term to take advantage of. this. We really have a huge. responsibility for how we act now. And. so one of the things that occurred to. them immediately was as so many of them. put it them being the foreign policy. establishment and including the. administration. uh Bush Senior and Bill Clinton too, we. don't want to move the dividing lines in.

Europe further east. We want to erase. them completely. We want a Europe that's. whole and free. Does that or does that in not include. the Russians? But at first the message. was yes, it does. And George Bush Senior. said, uh, we want to have a single zone. of peace from Vancouver to Vladivastto, meaning the entire northern hemisphere. Now, this is why I was such a new world. order cook in the 1990s was because.

there were enough threads of things like. this where part one side of the argument. was essentially that yes, we should. bring Russia into NATO too. Now, what's that? To me, in my mind, that fit in with G. Edward Griffin's. John Burcher grand design conspiracy. where you take the two enemies, move. them together, and they're going to form. basically like a single white world army. of the north to then lord it against.

Islamic South Asia andor China. And but. it would essentially be the single one. world army of the one world government. under the United Nations in this new. alliance between the United States and. Russia. But that was not true at all. That was not right. And the woollyheaded. one worlders like Strobe Talbot, that's. his own word for himself. Um. that idea that we're going to really. befriend Russia and bring them in from. the cold all the way with us was never.

really on the table for discussion. It. was dismissed essentially immediately. And so like in 1997 when Bill Clinton is. throwing them scraps and giving them the. NATO Russia Council, I'm going, "Oh my. god, look, they're doing it. They're. building the NATO Russia Council." When. in fact, he's giving them the stiff arm. and treating them like crap. But I was a. kid and I didn't have the internet back. then and his different times. Um but so. in fact in a way chapter one and two of. that book are me grappling with what was.

really going on at that time when I. thought it was something else back then. I really thought that they were trying. to build this world federalism with. Russia and then come to find out that. this is Dick Cheny's world not Al Gore. if that's if that's does that make sense. right that like this liberal nambi pami. baby blue UN flag internationalism. that's just cover for the brute force of. American hegemony over the world and of. course you got to get the liberals on. board so you tell them a bunch of nambby. pami stuff to get them on board because.

they like that kind of thing that oh. look it's all humanitarianism and we're. passing out food or you know it's world. federalism, it's multilateralism and all. of these like little buzzwords that make. them feel good about what we're really. doing is seeking essentially a pack. Americana over the world. And so. that was what was going on. Now. obviously if instead of erasing dividing. lines we're just moving them further. east what does that mean? It means that. we stop at Russia.

You got to ask yourself, how does that. look from Russia's side? And how it. looks from Russia's side is an. explicitly anti-Russian military. alliance encroaching steadily toward. their borders. And obviously regards. that as a threat. And when I say. obviously, I mean the George HW Bush. administration understood that that. would be a result of NATO expansion. And. that's why they lied and said, "What. we're going to do is we're going to. empower what was then called the CSCE,

the Conference on Security and. Cooperation on in Europe, which is now. called the OSC for Organization. Um, we're going to empower them and. we're going to have a security. partnership.". And so what's going to happen is NATO is. going to become irrelevant. We're going. to marginalize. NATO is essentially. going to become a political. organization. So even if it expands, it. doesn't really matter because what we're. really talking about is something that's. sort of like the EU plus the United. States, but it's going to be relegated.

to a political organization and it's. going to be replaced by the CSCE because. who needs an alliance? There's no enemy. and we want to be partners with you. And. since Russia and all the middle states. in central and eastern Europe and far. eastern Europe, if you want to call it. that, right, the Baltics and Ukraine and. Barus are all members of the CSC already. since the Helsinki Accords of 1975. Well.

then cool, presto. Everybody's neutrality is baked in and. we're all in it together. But they were. lying, man. They never meant to do that. The plan always was to expand NATO, of. course, to keep it a military alliance. and to keep it the center of American. power in Europe and to use the CCE. And. then later, the Clinton administration's. version of the same scam was called the. Partnership for Peace, where Warren. Christopher knowingly, the Secretary of. State knowingly lied directly to.

Gorbachov's face and tried to make him. believe that we're doing the Partnership. for Peace instead of NATO expansion. andor again reiterating that NATO is. just going to be this political thing. and it's not we're not really doing much. with it anyway right now at all. When. they knew that wasn't true, they had. already decided that they were going to. expand NATO for certain. The decision. had been made like in stone by then. And. they were shining them on and trying to. get them to go along with their further. agendas as much as they could get away. with as long as they could get away with.

it before breaking the bad news to him. that actually we are expanding NATO. after all. Because man, they knew that. this is going to destroy Yeltson. This. is going to cause such pressure against. him. In fact, when Clinton gave his. speech announcing that he had been lying. and that he really does mean to expand. NATO in 1994, Yelson freaked out because he misto. misunderstood that Bill Clinton was.

saying that we're going to start doing. it next year in 95, which was Clinton. had promised him that they definitely. would not do that. Yelson had to stand. for reelection in 96 and this would. absolutely destroy him and they all knew. it. Lex, what does that mean? That means. that every pro-American moderate. English-speaking liberal in Moscow. would be implicated, right? That they said we were cool and.

we're doing what we promised we wouldn't. while they were telling everybody else, "Don't worry about the Americans. We can. trust them. It's all good." and this and. that, right? So, they knew this was. going to destroy Yeltson politically. So, they promised that, "No, Boris, no, no, no, man. Don't worry. We're not. going to do it until after you're safely. reelected in 96." They absolutely. understood. All of them understood the. depth of of how destructive that would. be to him because of how the entire. consensus inside Russia at that time in.

their entire you know political and. foreign policy establishment was. absolutely opposed to NATO expansion and. were of course terrified by it and this. is all before Putin or W Bush ever come. to town. This is just HW Bush and Bill. Clinton years and dealing with um Mikall. Gorbachoff and then Boris Yeltson in all. of this. And I give credit to Joshua. Shiffrenson is the great academic. I. believe he's now at KO. um he was at.

Texas A&M University and I'm not sure. where else he has written but he wrote a. bunch of great journal articles that I. learned a hell of a lot from and cite in. my book where he shows explicitly is. it's beyond argument that they knew that. they were lying they were planning one. thing and they were doing something else. and he he's very polite and says that. they were knowingly misleading I think. but I call them damn liars and it's. pretty clear that they were and So. that's a huge part of it just to get us.

started off here in the 1990s. What are. we going to do? Oh, and I'm sorry. Yes, we're going to expand NATO. But first, it's important to to emphasize that yes, in fact, they did promise not to. And. people keep trying to debunk this, but. they can't. I have rebunked it and and. they cannot at all challenge the facts. as I marshall in my book. And it's. overkill. This is one of the two. sections where I have probably far more.

than I need to demonstrate my case. because I tried to simply on I think I. already said this earlier in our review, I'm sorry, on the case of the promises. against NATO expansion and on the. subject of the Ukrainian Nazis, I went. for absolute overkill on the citation. and the development of the idea and the. story and the proof and what it all. means because I feel like those are the. two most controversial uh stance es that. I'm taking in the book as being. factually true and I want the skeptical.

reader to say, "Oh boy, I didn't really. realize it was like that when they're. done." So to be clear on the NATO. expansion saying that there was clear. indication made official that NATO. promises made by the United States that. NATO will not expand. >> and not just promises but it was an. agreement that we promise not to expand. the NATO alliance if you'll allow the. reunification of Germany. And that was. what convinced.

Gorbachoff to say, "Okay, fine. We'll. agree to withdraw and allow Germany to. reunify under NATO.". And then the deal is, and as I show in. the book, it's not just that James Baker. said this one time on February the 9th, 1990. He said it six times on February. the 9th, 1990. and on many other in fact. on that same day Robert Gates who was. then the deputy secretary of defense uh.

pardon me the deputy director of the CIA. told the same thing to the director of. the KGB in a meeting on that same day in. Moscow and then the German foreign. minister Hans Dietri Genture said this. over and over and over again including. in public at public press conferences. right in front of James Baker who only. nodded in a sense and never said. anything against it that we promise not. not to expand NATO, but that includes in. because here's the rub and this is what. makes it a little complicated and maybe.

people's eyes glaze over or the word. party tries to say this is all anybody. ever meant by that was Baker said in a. weird way that if you allow Germany to. reunite, we won't spread NATO one inch. inside Germany. That's where the phrase. not one inch comes from. Well, that doesn't make any sense. It's. like the East German government is going. to be the government of the new Germany, right? Bon is going to move to Berlin.

and West Germany is going to be the. regime that rules the new reunited. Germany, right? No question about that. So, how is it that only the western half. of the country is in NATO? That doesn't. make sense. So then they had to walk. that back and go, "Okay, well, you know. what we'll do though is yes, obviously. the whole country will be in NATO, but. we promise not to move any substantial. military forces into the then GDR, East.

Germany. Uh that was short for German. Democratic Republic, which was commi. enslaved East Germany. um we promise not to move our forces in. there or nuclear weapons into the. eastern part. So they're still. respecting the promise. They're kind of. revising it cuz they have to cuz the. first in the first sense the promise. doesn't actually make rational sense, right? You can't really bring you can't. reunite Germany but only leave the first.

half inside the military alliance. Okay? But they said, "Okay, but we're not. going to build new bases and station. forces further east, and we're not going. to put nuclear weapons there." Okay, so. they're still respecting that promise, and that part ended up in the final. Washington treat final treaty that they. signed. Now, um, Hans Dietri Genture made the most of. this, but so did the Chancellor Helmet. Cole. And this is the part and Mary. Elise Serat wrote a whole book about. this called Not One Inch. And she has a.

whole hell of a lot on this. uh as her. and Shiffronson are probably the two. best on it, although I think he's. probably got the edge, but she shows. where. Helmet Cole went and met with Gorbachev. and he knew that HW Bush wanted to. reconsider this and thought that Baker. was being too consiliatory, but Helmet. Cole went ahead and stuck with the day. before yesterday's interpretation or was. it just yesterday's interpretation. instead of the new one cuz he knew that.

that's what he wanted Gorbachov to hear. that this is how it's going to be. And. it was based on that promise from Helmet. Cole that Gorbachov said, "Okay, fine. You can do it." And Helmet Cole said, "Can I quote you on that right now?" And. he goes, "Yeah." And Helmet Cole went. right outside and held a press. conference and said Gorbachov just said. that Germany can reunite. Blam, got it. Now, was that in a treaty like right. there? It was just a spoken word, but. they moved to reunite right then based. on it. The treaty came later, right? So,

same kind of thing here. They try to. argue that words don't mean things only. when it's a treaty ratified by the. Senate. But that's not true. And. Schifferson especially goes through and. shows some examples and there are plenty. of others. But you have the entire. arrangement around West Berlin, for. example, which your younger viewers may. not know that West Berlin, the western. half of Berlin was a free city wholly. within Kami East Germany was still. occupied by the US as a remnant of the. Second World War. And so it's a very.

complicated situation there. But. America's entire arrangement with the. Soviets about how to treat West Berlin, checkpoint Charlie and all these things. was purely handshake agreements. They. had no treaty at all. And Roosevelt in. fact when he was still alive, uh they. were already working on this and said. that the agreement that we were already. working out over Vienna, Austria should. also apply to Berlin. and he did not. want it on a piece of paper because he.

wanted it specifically for a. trustbuilding measure. And if we don't. put it in writing and both sides just. have to live up to it based on what's. the right thing to do in the. circumstance, then that'll help build. our relationship for the better. And. that's really cuz Roosevelt was a. Stalinist commi dictator himself. But. don't get me off on that tangent. But. anyway, uh speaking of one world. communism, um but so there was no formal. arrangement over West Berlin. Then same.

thing when Henry Kissinger and Richard. Nixon split ma tongue off from the. Soviet Union in the cold war and made. them really our allies in the war. We. didn't have a war guarantee, but we had. a deep relationship that they crafted at. that time. all handshake deals, nothing. official, no treaties is how they. handled it. When in the Cuban missile. crisis, Kennedy negotiated with Cruchef, secretly with his brother, the attorney. general, over the heads of and around.

the CIA and the State Department and. made a secret deal with Cruchev that if. you get your missiles out of Cuba, we. will remove our mid-range missiles from. Turkey. And they didn't even say this, but just implicitly also Italy where we. had st uh stationed these same Jupiter. mid-range missiles and and we promised. never to invade Cuba again. That. informal secret deal that wasn't.

revealed until the end of the Cold War. They said at the time, "Yeah, Jack Kenny. just faced him down." No, he made this. secret deal and it held and it has held. this whole time. They kept the missiles. They've never put missiles back in. Turkey. We do have air dropped and and. uh hydrogen bombs and airplanes. stationed at the Insurlic base there. Um. but we have not stationed missiles in. Turkey ever since or in Italy ever since. then as and lived up to that deal. Nor.

have we invaded uh Cuba although they. did try to murder Castro more times. after that but we haven't invaded. So. that was an informal deal. It's not only. a handshake deal. It was a secret and. completely deniable. And yet they abided. by it anyway because sometimes you got. to do that. And that's the way these. things go. When it comes to this, you. have Peter Baker in the New York Times. saying, "Nah, come on. If it's not in a. treaty, then it's not anything at all.". But that's not true. As Ted Snyder said, this wasn't just a promise. This was an.

agreement. We promised not to expand. NATO. Okay? Can we reunite now? Yes, you. can shake on it. That's a deal. And the. Americans lied and broke it. And they. knew they're lying and breaking it. And. when the Russians started complaining to. the Clinton people, Warren Christopher launched an internal. investigation at the State Department to. find out if it was true or not. And they. decided it was true, but that oh well, screw them. We're going to go ahead. anyway. >> Can we, if it's okay, fast forward, as.

you said, your book is called Provoke. Not Justified. I should say from me, maybe you can uh speak from your. perspective that the reason the war in. Ukraine in 22 started was because. Vladimir Putin invaded Ukraine. And then you could backtrack like what. why he did was he escalated the war in. Ukraine by about 100,000%. Right? But the war had been going on for.

a very long time, right? And that's very. important. You know, it's not just the. backstory, but it really is the start of. the war was when John Brennan came to. town on April the 12th and 13th of 2014. and demanded that the acting president. Turovv launched the war and he did on. the 14th. It was all John Brennan's fault like a. lot of things. A drastic escalation. was committed by Vladimir Putin.

Absolutely right. Yeah. >> And there's when we look at. responsibility and we talk about wararm. mongers and we talk about the. military-industrial complex. >> Yeah. >> That's I think it's really important to. explore from an American perspective. But when you look at the region. and who started that escalation, you you. have to put the chief responsibility. on Vladimir Putin. >> Of course, >> the guy's a gangster. That's how he got. a job in the first place. He was part of.

the Yeltson family and he had been the. deputy mayor of St. Petersburg where he. worked for a criminal named Saabek who. was part of the Yeltson family and we. say family like the Italian mob in New. York families. Uh that's exactly in the. exact same meaning of that term. That's. what they called it at the time. And. that was where he came from in the first. place. and his first job really was. protecting all Yeltson and his guys and. getting them out of the country with all. their money safely and then you know. taking control of the thing. So, we're.

ahead of the story a little bit, but the. guy's an sob. You know, people say, "Oh, he's a KGB and he's a commie." Well, he's not a commie. He sided with the. reformers against the coup plotters in. August of 1991 when it counted, right? And and also, he wasn't a spy. He. was a clerk. like he was, you know, he. was a colonel, but like I've never seen. anything that said he's out slitting. throats and bribing people and. blackmailing people and turning spies.

He was a operations guy back at. headquarters. Um, I know a lady named. Susan Tennyson. You ever heard of her? She's an American who was doing outreach. to the Soviet Union in the 1980s. Spent. her whole lifetime, I think she's still. alive, little old lady, sweet old lady. Spent her whole lifetime trying to make. friends with Russia. And she talked she. told me the story about meeting Putin. when he was the deputy mayor of of St. Petersburg and how he wouldn't take a. bribe. He just wanted to get the job. done. Whatever the job was, she needs.

some bureaucratic hurdles taken. He. said, "Well, check this box and sign. here and thank you very much." And. didn't want her money, which she thought. was a really big deal at the time that. wow, like this guy has a sense of honor. and duty and doing his job in a way that. nobody else here does. Everybody else. here is a Mexican cop going kicked out. you know what I mean? Everybody um and. where he wasn't. So now I'm not saying. that makes him a moral guy or whatever, but I'm saying that makes him very much. like a business's business sort of a.

dude who has his priorities like in that. way. He's a head of state and a powerful. state and you have to be in practice a. psychopath to run a country like that. That goes for Obama and the rest of them. too, man. Uh all of these guys, it's a. psychopathic job to kill people. uh and. especially in the kind of large numbers. especially that the Americans do but and. Putin's been responsible for a bit of. violence of himself uh up until even. this time and I don't think anybody.

underestimates I don't you know there's. some people I guess who kind of they're. so anti-American Empire they start. seeing or maybe too sympathetic instead. of just empathetic with the other side. right and sort of maybe rationalize a. bit of the Russian point of view or. whatever in a way that doesn't appeal to. me. I don't I don't think you have to. like honestly I don't see anything. Well, look, I I have in the book, it's a. Bill Hicks quote. There's options. He's. talking about pro-life people ought to.

be blocking cemeteries and preventing. funerals, but he says there's options. So, I just like little tiny little. Easter eggs like that. Putin could have. done other things like for example he. could have um again like in 2018. demanded only this time really seriously. and loudly and with the world paying. close attention in a way that they. weren't in 18 that I want baby blue. helmet UN peacekeepers from a third.

non-interested country to go stand on. the border of the gray zone in the. Dawnbass on what's supposed to be the. ceasefire line in eastern Ukraine. And I. demand it and I'm serious and I'm going. to come up with ways to force y'all to. give into this. In other words, to to. ratchet up the tension, not to start the. war, but to find a creative way to force. the West to implement the Minsk 2 deal. that the West signed along with Ukraine.

and Russia in 2015. and that Obama rubber stamped and that. the UN Security Council rubber stamped. and that America and Kiev had always. refused to implement. He also, and maybe. as part of enforcing that, he could have. vowed to obstruct all UN Security. Council business. He's got veto power. He can vote no on anything and just. grind the UN Security Council to a halt. That's a hell of a lever of pressure. He. could have also cut off all gas to.

Western Europe through the Nordstream. He had already shut off Nordstream 1. I. forgot exactly the offense that caused. him to do that. It's in the book, but he. had already shut down Nordstream 1. He. could have shut down Nordstream 2 and he. could have shut off all the gas. pipelines running through Ukraine as. well. This is in the winter of 21. We're. talking about in November, December of. 21 into January, February 22. It's cold. as hell. Europe is up at Canada type. latitudes, man, where it's cold in the. winter up there. And he could have. played hard ball like that. And as I.

complain in the book as well, he also. could have been just not so damn koi. about the thing. and where he kept. denying that he was going to invade and. saying well this is very coercive. diplomacy essentially but like come on. just give in which I think he did offer. treaties and this is we're jumping way. ahead in the story I think Biden could. have negotiated his way out of it if. he'd been trying to I think he was not. trying to so when Biden was president. you were saying that he did not do.

enough. >> right to negotiate in good faith in fact. this is why I thought there wouldn't be. a war it's not because I didn't think. Putin had it in him. I'd been warning. for years. He had been warning for years. and I noticed. He had told an Italian. diplomat in 2014, you know, I could be. in Kiev in 2 weeks. And so this was. always the threat that this could get, you know, much worse. Um, and but I. thought it wouldn't happen because. William Burns, who is the author of the.

net means net memo and was I don't know. if he was ever CIA, but he was stationed. in the embassy over there since the. 1990s, had been Bush's ambassador to. Russia and was like, if there's one guy. who can work this out with Sergey. Lavrov, it's William Burns. And I. idiotically. thought, and God, how stupid could I. have been that I thought that of course. William Burn's mandate from Biden will.

be see us through this, prevent this war. from happening. And I knew the war was. preventable because the issues on the. table were not just some front, some. excuse. The issues on the table were. deadly serious issues of NATO expansion, the potential for missile imp placements. in Ukraine, especially after Trump tore. up the non the intermediate nuclear. forces treaty of 1987, which would have. made it legal for America to station uh.

nuclear missiles in Europe again and um. and the ongoing war in the Dawnbass. And. if if William Burns had the mandate to. figure this out, dude, then he could. have. And I know that he could have. And. I know that they did not try to do that. They never negotiated either of those. proposed treaties. One was for the US, one was for NATO. And they were. reasonable. And Lex, I have in the book, not just Chas Freeman, the brilliant. genius, you know, career diplomat who. went to China with Nixon and was the.

former ambassador to Saudi and all these. things who told me personally that like. absolutely. this is a reasonable treaty to. negotiate. Am I saying we should sign on. the dotted line? Hell no. We don't do. that for anyone. But is this reasonable. to sit at a table and negotiate? Absolutely. And I show in the book Joe. Biden administration White House. officials, possibly State Department, but at least high level officials, NSC. and/or state, told the Post and the.

Times that we think these are reasonable. treaties and that they should be. negotiated. But then they did not do. that. They refused to negotiate those. treaties. They refused to negotiate NATO. expansion. They refused to negotiate the. imp placement of missiles as a potential. imp placement of missiles in Ukraine and. they refused to implement Minsk do or do. anything to end the civil war and in. fact helped to increase it. According to. the OCE, Kiev was escalating artillery.

attacks on the other side of the line uh. into the third week of February of 2022. And so, listen, there's a quote in there of. Putin where he says, you know, I think. they're trying to provoke me into. invading. That's not the exact quote. Forgive me. But he acknowledges that. this could be a trap, but I really don't. know what else to do. And and quite. frankly, I think that's right, Lex. And. I think and my excuse is is I was too.

damn busy recording the audio book of. the last war. Enough already in the. Middle East. I'm one of those generals. always behind and so I was outsourcing. too much of my primary reading to my. opinion pieces that I was reading from. smart people and people that I was. interviewing at the time but I wasn't. reading just enough of hate to say it. but just the post the times in the. journal that's who the US government. talks to so you got to read the post the. times in the journal and if you read the.

post in the times and the journal very. carefully um and a lot of the rest of. the media too. From the era of. especially December of 21 and into. January and February 22, you'll find a. lot of references to Afghanistan. Not our recent absolutely humiliating, disgraceful failure and ultimate. withdrawal after 20 years. Just 3 months. before in the end of the summer of 2021, just 3 months later, they had the word.

Afghanistan in their mouths. We want to. replicate the Afghan war. You know, Rambo 3, what we did to the Soviet Union. in the 1980s, not our Afghan war, their. Afghan war. But we're going to do it. this time with the Ukrainian Nazi right. as the mujaheden. And we're going to. lure the Russians in, bog them down, and. bleed them to bankruptcy, inflict on. them a strategic defeat. uh Nile.

Ferguson who's Wi-Fi humiliated in front. of all those people in Las Vegas at that. time. He wrote an article in Bloomberg. News where he says, "Look, everybody. who's anybody. in Washington and London knows that the. policy is to inflict a strategic defeat. on Russia. We're not trying to dissuade. them from invading." And you could just. see where right after the start of the. war, somebody asked Ned Price, the State. Department spokesman, "Man, what are we. doing to negotiate an end to this.

thing?" I mean, you would just think. that the consensus of all 8 billion of. us would be, "You can't have a hot war. on Russia's southern western border. This could go nuclear. We have to cease. fire immediately. General strike, call. it off. Somebody go to Geneva and figure. this out." That's what everybody thought. was happening. And so the reporters ask. Ned Price, man, what are we doing to do. the thing, to end the thing? And Ned. Price goes, well, you know, there are. larger principles at stake here about.

independence and sovereignty and the. right of a nation to direct its gaze in. whichever direction that it wishes to. direct its gaze. In other words, this is sticking with. what they call the open door policy, which says that any country that wants. to join NATO can join NATO if we say so. And no third country. can say otherwise. And no third. country's security interest will be. taken into account. And you see how they.

do this in committee. They go, "Well, is. anybody at the table here think that. Russia ought to have veto power over who. we allow into our military alliance?". And of course, nobody raises their hand. when you put it that way. So then that's. it. We dismiss that forever. Now we have. an open door. Now, of course, there is. no no door. It's just jargon. It's just. meaningless garbage basically thought up. by a bunch of bureaucrats. They could. change it just as easy. But instead, they say, "Nope.". especially. when the Russians, and this is pointed.

out by Steven Walt and by um Samuel. Cherup at Rand pointed out that yeah, it's hard because once the Russians are. demanding that we do these reasonable. things, well, now doing them seems unreasonable. cuz we don't want to give in to their. demands. And so, like, no, we and man, this is. the worst Joe Biden. And Joe Biden has. always been the worst since 1973, but this is him at his absolute most.

dim-witted. So he can't really think. hard about any of these things. He. mostly would just speak in historical. analogies about World War II. He's. Churchill facing down Hitler. And so. you're going to talk him out of that? You're going to tell him that he ought. to be Neville Chamberlain and appease. Hitler at Munich? Of course not. You. know what you got to do to a bully? You. got to punch him in the nose. And I'm. sure you've must have heard this a. hundred times in the leadup to this war.

They'd all say this. All these dorks. would talk about, "Yeah, you know how. you face down a bully, you punch him in. the nose." Well, how would they know? They never punched a bully in the nose. before, right? They're dorks. And they. now have all this power and think that. they know what they're doing and the. best thing they can do is relive their. third grade trauma. uh getting bullied. by me and my friends on the playground, you know, and they get to pretend like. what? They're the star of the baseball.

team that came and stuck up for the. bullied kid. Nuh-uh. No, they're not. That's their little fantasy that they're. playing out. And they would say things. like that over and over again. It's it's. Chamberlain at Munich and the bully on. the playground. But nobody can just talk. about what about the ongoing war in the. Dawnbass. Can we get off of your. analogies? I got in an argument again. I. for the third time I debated General. Wesley Clark about Ukraine on the Pierce. Morgan show and again he immediately. retreats to World War II fantasies.

Well, that's like saying that Stalin. should have given in to Hitler and. because he can't talk about the war. They're lo losing provos right now. The the war is getting worse and worse. for Ukraine all the time. So he has to. say, "Uh-uh. You know what? The. Ukrainians believe hard and you just. need to believe hard like them." That's. the level of argument that I got out of. General Wesley Clark, the former. fourstar general, Supreme Allied. Commander of NATO forces in Europe who.

served Bill Clinton launching the. aggressive war against Kosovo based on. lies in 1999 based on a false claim that. the Serbs had murdered a 100,000 Kosvar. Albanians when that was a lie. And. they're fighting for Bin Laden. a bunch. of heroin dealers and organ smugglers. and bin Laden terrorists in that war of. treason. But anyway, that's General. Wesley Clark for you. But that's. basically all they got. It's a bunch of. believe hard and a bunch of World War II. metaphors and playground metaphors. because they can't talk about the actual.

war themselves. To be clear, if I may. comment, you're referring to Americans. or maybe Europeans. Well, in the foreign. policy establishment guts, right? I do. want to say that Ukrainians, people in. Ukraine, and I know many of them are. true heroes and they're fighting for. their country. And whether the. geopolitics of it makes any sense, it. doesn't take away from the human beings. >> Yeah, of course. >> Defending their land and in absolute.

hellish worscape, man. I mean, it's. World War I plus drones, right? muddy. trenches and tank rounds and artillery, airdrop dumb bombs and drones hunting. you. It's an absolute nightmare out. there, man. Anybody with telegram is. going Jesus Christ looking through the. thing, you know? It's not quite as bad. as Gaza cuz it and look, they're. conscripts. So, it's very unfair, but in. essence, they're wearing green in our. fair game out there fighting on the. field. Most of the civilians have been.

able to flee. the civilian deaths are. counted in the single thousands I. believe low thousands uh which is. absolutely horrific for those people but. at least that's like the silver lining. is that it's essentially combatants. fighting but it's still absolute hor. show and you're right that look you know. I can't deny the bravery anybody out. there risking their balls for you know. any of this stuff but the thing is there. are different wars going on right. there's a war between the United States. and Russia going on with a proxy war.

hell there's a with America and China. going on with using Ukraine and Russia. as our proxies. Then there's America and. Russia using their proxies in Ukraine. Then you have Ukraine, you know, Kiev. versus Moscow. But then you also have. Lviv versus Donesk, right? And these. nationalists from out west trying to. force their version of what Ukraine is. supposed to be on the people of the east. who of course are ethnically and. culturally Russian. And I'm not saying.

that means everyone who is so wants to. join the Russian Federation, but I'm. just saying there's a severe culture war. going on for dominance in the country. And u all of these wars are playing out. at the same time. But then so anybody. who says, "Hey, I'm defending my land, my neighborhood, my community. Give me a. rifle and I'll go do brave things.". Like, hey, that is what it is. Overall, what's really happened here is the. United States of America has gotten. their weak friend in a fight with their.

stronger, tougher neighbor when we had. no ability or intention whatsoever to. bail them out of it. When they said, "We're going to give you all the weapons. it needs, as much as it takes, as long. as it takes," they knew they were lying. Even Camala Harris can tell you, "Russia. is a bigger country." By the way, that's. a real quote. I don't know if you know. that, but she sound like she's talking. to a four-year-old. And and I'm sure she was simply paring. her own advisors from what they told.

her. Not even what they told her to say, but what they told her. Ukraine is a. country in Europe. Russia is a bigger. country in Europe. Russia is next door. to Ukraine. And Russia has invaded. Ukraine. And that's bad and we are. against it. When I heard that, I thought. it was fake or I thought, "Come on, she. was talking to elementary school kids. and you guys are taking out of context.".

No, she said that on the Black Guy. Morning Show on the radio in Chicago. And they looked at her like, "Lady, we. know that Russia and Ukraine are in. Europe. We know that Russia is a bigger. country than all other countries. Tell. us something that we don't know.". and she didn't know anything that they. didn't know. So, she could not tell. them, but she could tell them that. Russia is bigger than Ukraine. She might. have been able to extrapolate that they.

have a hell of a lot more available. fighting aged males to complete this war. than Ukraine, and they always will, and. there's nothing anybody can do about it. other than if Joe Biden would be willing. to send the United States army in there. to fight them. Even the Germans and the. French and the British and the Poles. combined couldn't do it without America. to help them do it. It's without America. to run the whole thing for them. Anyway, if you wanted to really whoop the. Russians and drive them out of the. Donbass and Zabrosia and Gerson and.

Crimea, you need to send in the Marines. You need to send in the Air Force and. the Navy. And we're not going to do. that, Lex. And Joe Biden said. explicitly, we're not doing that. That's. World War II. will give the Ukrainians. everything they need to fight. As you. said, zoom all the way in. Here's some. hero making the ultimate sacrifice. Zoom. all the way out. Here's some damned fool. using these people as cannon fodder on. some fool's errand. They can't possibly.

win to to deliver a strategic defeat. against the Russians that they have. completely failed to deliver. If. anything, they delivered a strategic. victory to China by kicking front kick. straight in the chest Russia right out. of Europe and into the arms of the. Chinese when of course Russia is the. eastern frontier of European. civilization. Um, and we're doing everything we can to. change that. Joe Biden himself said, "No.

Russian leader in all history has ever. thrown in as hard with the West as. Vladimir Putin.". It's Joe Biden himself who kicked him. right back out again. >> It really seemed. that Donald Trump more than uh any. recent president wanted to make peace. >> Yeah, >> there's a strong will for peace. Why do. you think he has not been successful? >> Yeah. Okay, let me just emphasize here.

We're skipping a lot to the end, and I. know it's late, so it's okay. But there. are a lot of other things beside NATO. expansion, including tearing up the. treaties, installing. anti-bballistic missile systems in. Romania and Poland, but that are fired. from dualuse launchers, the MK-41 or. Mark 41 missile launcher that can also. hold Tomahawk cruise missiles. and while. all the all the while refusing an. inspection regime. There's also of. course overthrowing the government twice. in 10 years in Ukraine, all the other. color-coded revolutions um in Georgia.

and in Kyrgyzstan and the rest. And um. of course support for the Maidan. revolution of 14 and the war that broke. out after that. And as I said, I I beat. essentially every topic that I could. think of outstanding between America and. Ukraine that's happened this entire. time. I do not spin for the Russians the. whole time. I accuse them of plenty of. things in there that they actually did. And I defend the truth from false.

accusations rather than defending the. Russians cuz screw them and they don't. need my help. And this book is not for. them. It's for us. Um, but um I I tried. not to leave out anything. I mentioned. sort of it's the epitome, the Montenegro. weird phony coup of 16, but we tried to. overthrow the government of Barus three. times, 01, 05, and 20. Uh, we've been messing around a lot in.

in building up this cold war. That's why. that book is so long is it it is 475. thou 477,000 words and and I don't think. wasted and that does include the. footnotes which by the way Lex when I. took the URLs out and the the the. footnotes are font size nine I believe. >> Mhm. >> When I took the URLs out that saved me. 77 pages. That's how many articles are are in. there. But if people go to scott. horton.org/provoked/notes. org/provoked/notes.

I have a PDF file there of all the notes. with their links. I only took the links. out at the very last moment. So, there's. a PDF file where you can take anything. in here and I'll have a working link to. it at scottworn.org/provoke/notes. and people can download the whole PDF of. the whole thing and it's 375 pages of. notes in regular font. How would you. recommend one where So I've read parts. of this that jumped around. Yeah. >> Um.

unless I. my mental health goes to complete shit. I hope to uh travel back to Ukraine and. to Russia to interview the key figures. there. And you said that I should. definitely read the entirety of the. book. >> And look, I think it it's written to be. a page turner all the way through. And I. am outraged. And the book is written. from this point of view and it's. engaging enough. And as I say, it's so. long because there's so many subtopics.

I do not belabor and beat the dead horse. and force you to read a bunch about. things that you're not interested. anymore. We do the litenko chapter, then. it's over. We do the Bellarus chapter, then we're done and move on to the next. subject as fast as I can take you. through it. It's the same way I wrote. the previous books, too. This is what I. need to tell you before I let you off. the hook and change the channel. Right? Just like in enough already, I gave you. four pages on Somalia. I know you're not.

going to read six. You might not get to. Libya if I try to make you read six on. Somalia. So, I only gave you four. You. know what I mean? I wrote it that way in. the first place. I I think I proved my. point. And I give you um you know the. ability to find the proof for yourself. uh to track these things down further. If I say these people essentially made. this claim in this piece, you can track. that down and double check and see if. I'm lying or not or see if I understood. right or whatever as you go through.

there. People will falsely assume that I. don't have Ukrainian and Russian sources. in there, but I do. But the thing is I. just I don't use cerillic at all because. nobody can read that. So, I use Google. Translate on the titles. So, a lot of. times you don't realize that it's, you. know, unless you look closely, you won't. realize that these are there plenty of. foreign sources that I site in there, but I just give them their English. headlines um through Google Translate or. whatever, so people know what they're. looking at, but again, I have the links.

and even the links to the translated. versions of the stories and all of that. Um, but I'm not dodging your question. about Trump, by the I do want to talk. about that, but I wanted to make it. clear that I'm not just saying Bill. Clinton expanded NATO in the '90s. W. Bush did too in the 2000s. Obama did too. in the 2010s and Trump did too. Uh. brought Montenegro and northern. Macedonia into NATO. Um the there's the. color-coded revolutions and the missiles. and all of these things. Um and so.

it all came to a head essentially in the. Biden years. It could have. Trump I. think could have solved it if they. hadn't have framed him for Russia gate. By the way, I have 75 pages on Russia. gate in there. It's the most thorough. take down of Russia gate I think you can. find anywhere. Although I don't take. credit, I give credit to the great. Russia gate journalists who absolutely. destroyed those lies. People like Paul. Sperry and Matt Taibbe, Aaron Mate and. uh and Robert Perry for that matter. before he died. Gareth Porter, of.

course, and so many others who did such. great work on Russia Gate. It was just. absolute one hair away from just blowing. the guy's head off in Dallas. I don't. know what's the difference. It's. unbelievable to have the CIA and the FBI. come at the president of the United. States this way. becoming a major party. candidate for president this way and. then the president-elect and then the. sitting president of the United States. talking about trying to overthrow him. with the 25th amendment hire a special. counsel to pretend to investigate him. for another two years. These people.

should have all of their prop property. confiscated. They and their family. should be exiled from the United States. forever. Everyone involved in that plot. everyone involved at Perkins Koi, everybody involved at the Georgia Tech. team, everybody involved in uh you know. Glenn Simpson and his Fusion GPS, everyone at the FBI and CIA and NSA and. any of the government agencies who went. along with that plot ought to all be. kicked out of the United States forever. and their great grandchildren. As you. write, it was the CIA and FBI as well as.

the Clinton campaign and their agents. that did this to Trump. the front runner. from major party candidacy for the US. president, later the Republican nominee, president-elect, and eventually sitting. chief executive. None of it was true. And you go on and more of that coming. out all the time about just how not true. it was and just how not true they. already knew it was. And I have so much. in there. And I I beg your audience to. read the Durham report. There are new uh.

newly declassified uh appendixes uh to. it that are just being released as we. record this. One came out yesterday. Um. and so we're going to get much much more. about the origins of Russia Gate here. But Lex the the at the bottom line they. go okay after it all falls away still. Russia hacked the DNC and gave it to. Wikileaks. Nuh-uh. That was a lie. And. it was Crowd Strike that made up that. lie in combination with the Georgia Tech. team and DARPA at the Pentagon. I I have.

trouble keeping track of exactly at all. People should follow Undead Foya on. Substack. He's brilliant anonymous guy, uh, brilliant analyst to this stuff. Um, the core allegation there, there's no. proof of that whatsoever. And now we. know for a fact, we only just found this. out. Read Aaron Mate at Real Clear. Investigations. And we know for a fact. now that the FBI and the NSA. gave No, pardon me. The CIA and NSA, is. it FBI and NSA? FBI and NSA gave it only.

low to moderate confidence. In other. words, none of this information came. from the National Security Agency. They're the ones who would really know. And the CIA and the FBI had both already. debunked this stuff before they started. to pretend to believe it again. And part. of it is because of compartmentalization. inside the agencies. These analysts are. in charge of looking at this. These. analysts are in charge of looking at. that. But Brennan and Comey are in. charge of ignoring all of the disputing.

information and cherrypicking out all. the rest to try to make it look true. And man, what a fraud. I mean we are. talking on the level of the branch. devidians killed themselves on the level. of Saddam Hussein is making nuclear. weapons to murder you with Bashar. al-Assad woke up one morning and decided. to murder the entire population of his. country so it's a good thing that USA. and al Qaeda are here to protect the. poor population of Syria from his uh. wrath and it's on that level of lie it.

is unbelievable what they did to him and. you know I have so many problems with. Donald Trump. But man, I hate his. enemies and I would love to see him. ruthlessly, lawlessly persecute these. people. They deserve to suffer for what. they did to him and to this country. putting us through that. Think of how. many women bankrupted their husbands. with therapy bills because they were. that convinced that the Russians had. done a coup d'eta and installed a Nazi. fascist white supremacist to overthrow.

us. They heard it on National Public. Radio and they're freaking out, man. I. mean, you could come up if you wanted. to, you could have a conspiracy theory. where it was the drug companies that did. this just to sell more Zoloft to these. people. They drove them up the wall. Like, see, Lex, the problem is you know. better, dude. But pretend for a minute. that you're one of these idiot women. that listens to Mara Liasin on National. Public Radio and she says the Russians. did a coup and put a manurion candidate. in power. You served Hillary Clinton's.

rightful throne and he hates all the. blacks and the trans. he's going to. murder them all and start and he's and. you know attack Canada or whatever. They. were terrified. They were terrified. It's no less cynical than what W. Bush. did when he said, "Oh yeah, be afraid. Be very afraid. You won't be safe until. a year and a half from now when I get to. invade Iraq." You know how many people. on the edge of sanity went over? People. did. I know for a fact people did. I. know stories of people who are driven.

crazy by that stress of believing that. every Arab they see is a murderer. terrorist trying to kill them. People. believe in that. People think that their. their leaders wouldn't lie to them. Willie Nelson said they wouldn't lie to. me. Not on my own damn TV. Yeah, they. would too. The ones you love the most. You're a Republican. It's the. Republicans that are lying to you. You're a Democrat. You have no idea how. much they despise you. They'll lie right. to your face and they think it's funny.

when you believe it. They enjoy your. terror because your your fear and upset. makes it easier for them to do wrong. That's what it's about. That's what it's. all about. Why' they do this to Trump? Cuz he said he wanted to get along with. Russia. He wasn't going to give them our. nuclear codes. He even said, "Lex, I'm doing this. because I talked to Henry Kissinger.". And Henry Kissinger said, "Wow, you're. the tallest, smartest, most handsome, wealthiest, successful person I've ever.

met, and you have a very smart Russia. policy, which is to split Russia away. from China.". Is that cuz they have a blackmail pape. of Donald Trump and his prostitutes? No, it's what Henry Kissinger, Nelson. Rockefeller's man, wanted. the grand Republican. grand strategist of American foreign. policy for he only died a few years ago, right? And he was still writing books. I. mean, they were still turning to him for.

advice for decades. This guy since the. 1970s, since before I was born, Henry. Kissinger, the most important counselor. to Richard Nixon about what are we going. to do about the Soviet Union and China. He told Trump, "Yes, Trump, I agree with. you. That's what we should do. We should. do what it takes to befriend Russia so. that we can contain China." Now, I'm not. a China hawk, but whatever, man. That's. the point. And there's another major. point here to mention too, which as I.

was saying before in this book, I don't. quote a whole lot of Buchanan and Paul. I give them the credit that they. deserve, but I make a special point to. constantly quote Kissinger and Brazinski. and their contemporaries. where they admit these are the vanguard. of the NATO expanders. And Brazinski. especially was an anti-Russia hawk. He's. the son of Polish aristocrats and fierce. anti-communist. and um and anti-Russian even still too.

after. And they all said, "We have to. come up with a special status for. Ukraine because it's so closely. intertwined with Russia." Dating back. hundreds of years and to even the. foundation of Russian civilization began. in Kiev before traveling moving to the. center of gravity to Moscow later. And. you as Kissinger said, Ukraine's been. part of Russia for 300 years. And this. is not just some deal where we just get.

to do what we want. We have to take into. account how deeply complicated this is. and how deeply riven Ukrainian society. is especially on who do we want to run. with. And they said, "So what we have to. do is we have to create a special status. for Ukraine just like we had for Austria. and Finland in the old Cold War where. Austria and Finland were not members of. the Warsaw Pact nor were they members of. NATO and they did not have troops. Well,

they did have Soviet troops still. occupied Austria for a while. They. finally didn't. I don't think they. withdrew until the 50s, but they. eventually did withdraw. But but they. were not members. They were not forced. to be made members of the Warsaw Pact. like all the rest of the Eastern. European states were. They had no choice. but to join with sock puppet comms run. out of the Kremlin and everything. Um. and so but Austria and Finland had this. neutral status in the last cold war and. they said, "Well, that's what we want to. do again. That's what we need to do for. Ukraine. That's again Kissinger and.

Brzinski who were not neoconservatives. but were very hawkish on NATO expansion. and on Russia and on and on NATO. expansion being for the purposes of. containing Russia. No fooling about it. But in this case, man, if we try to take. Ukraine away, the Russians are going to. break it. Cuz in fact, it ain't going. anywhere. It's stuck next to Russia. This is another thing that Obama. explained to Jeffrey Goldberg that well. Jeffrey Goldberg, Russia's always going.

to have escalation dominance in Ukraine. because it's right there and it means a. lot more to them than it does to us. They are willing to go much further than. we are. And then he says to Goldberg, he. challenges him and he says, this is. after Obama's coup has o push, whatever. transition of power has led to the loss. of Crimea. And he says, Jeffrey. Goldberg, you tell me who in Washington.

says that we ought to put American boys. on the ground to secure the independence. of the Donbass from Russia. Can you name. me somebody's ready to do that right. now? No, of course not. So the rest of. Washington pipe down, right? You keep. saying we're not doing enough, but. there's nothing we can do that won't get. NATO into a war with the Russian. Federation. And as even Robert Kagan, I'm ruining. the end of the book now. Even Robert.

Kagan said, you know what? It actually. doesn't matter to the United States who. runs Ukraine. The northern coast of the Black Sea, that's so far beyond our jurisdiction. And this is Kagan's words, not mine, Lex. He, and I don't agree with him. about this at all, but he says, you. understand his context, what he means. here. He says, "The Soviet Union. dominated Ukraine the whole time after. World War II, and we think of those as. the good old days." Now, I do not I know.

people who are enslaved by the. communists in Ukraine in those good old. days. There's nothing good about them at. all. Okay? But what he was saying was. America never had a problem with Russian. dominance in Ukraine. We always called. it the Ukraine and we always pronounced. it Kiev. And what are you talking about. that we're willing to go to the mat for. the dawn bass? No, dude. Makes no sense. And the mat is Hbombs burning hotter. than the sun. So we cannot fight them. And certainly not over this. They're.

rolling on Berlin. Call me. They're. rolling on London. They're going to nuke. London. Man, I'd hate to see the world. end that way, but maybe we would have to. fight for the Brits. Lex, I'm really. more of a continental defense kind of. guy myself to tell you the truth. But. that's not what we're talking about. here. We're talking about. Czechoslovakia. with now the Czech Republic and. Slovakia. That's Central Europe. When we or maybe the Czech Republic is.

Slovakia, that's Eastern Europe. Bulgaria, Romania, that's Eastern. Europe. Ukraine is east of Eastern. Europe, right? Brent Skrov said, "We. only wanted to liberate Eastern Europe, not Ukraine.". Okay, this is too far away. It's not our. concern. And it's not to say that, oh. yeah, no, it's fine for Russia to invade. and kill and dominate this place with.

violence because, hey, that's their. sphere of influence. That's not what I'm. saying. I'm saying it was suicidal. madness for them to go along with. America's push for them to join our. military alliance. That's as much. respecting of Russia's sphere of. influence as they needed to do. Was not. mess with that. That's what got them in. trouble. That's what made the Russians. say, "Look, it's either sooner or later. It might as well be now. The longer we.

wait, the more the Americans build up. their forces, and we're going to end up. having to fight them anyway." They were. making them a de facto member of NATO. with what they called interoperability, normalizing their military forces with. ours as much as possible, making them a. de facto auxiliary of the NATO alliance. So that if NATO ever fought the Russian. Federation, just like Germany and. Lithuania and Hungary and Poland and the. rest, the Ukrainian army would be one. other auxiliary army fighting under.

United American NATO command. That's what we were doing with them. without the article 5 war guarantee that. we promised to come protect you, but. still normalizing and integrating their. military force with ours is one standard. thing. Constantly training with them, changing their equipment, changing their. command and control structure, everything to mirror NATO standards. And. so. it was a legitimate threat. Putin said. in his speech when he declared war, he.

said, "If the if the Americans put. Tomahawk cruise missiles infe. nuclear ballistic missiles that they're. making after they have torn up the. intermediate nuclear forces treaty of. 1987. And if they put hypersonics there, they. could hit Moscow in five minutes. He. said, "It's like a knife to the throat.".

Now, you don't have to sympathize with. the Russians at all. You could hate him. and want the Chinese to kill them all. for you. I don't know. But you have to. admit that these are serious, and. credible security concerns. This is not. a bunch of bluster and a bunch of. bluffing and a bunch of ideological, you know, you know, garbage or, you. know, propaganda. And it's and it's not. the nationalist theories of some. romantic swept away by visions of a lost. glorious past that he wants to regain.

and all these things. As everyone says, as I said to Pierce Morgan the day. before yesterday, that's the weapons of. mass destruction of this war is that. Putin woke up and started this war. because of what an aggressor he is. and. that there's no backstory that anybody. needs to know about how America put. Ukraine in the position of getting their. ass whooped by their bigger nextoor. neighbor in this way. That's the lie. under the whole thing. The same way that. Clinton lied us into Kosovo with the.

100,000 dead Kosvarss, Bush with his. weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Obama with his impending genocide in. Benghazi and Libya. Give me a break. All. of these lies. That's the lie of this. one. unprovoked attack. Unprovoked. attack. It's like white separatist Randy. Weaver. You have to say that. You can't. just say Randy Weaver. You can't say. Randy Weaver, survivor of a boy and a. dog and a woman, his wife who were. slaughtered by federal agents. No, you.

have to call him white separatist Randy. Weaver. Well, Russia's attack has to be. unprovoked attack. Oh, look at this. shiny coin. Unprovoked attack. And that works on people. Somehow people. don't just rebel against that and say, "Wait a minute. Are you calling me. stupid or something?". Why would you mandate that we call it. that in such a way if you weren't lying. and covering up for the fact that you.

provoked it and you know you did, which. is clearly the case. That's why they. called it that. You know, you could call. it an unprovoked attack sometimes. They. called it an unprovoked attack a 100,000. times because the public relations firms. decided that this is the lie and this is. the best way to stick it to the American. people. It's absurd how easily moved the. Americans are. Just give us some lies. And by the way,

our Zionist friend would say that I just. blame the Israelis for everything. Well, the only role that the Israelis play in. my book is Naft Tali Bennett, the guy. who caused the September 11th attack. It. tried to end the war, tried to negotiate. in good faith and do shuttle diplomacy. between Ukraine and Russia and tried to. stop the war right after it started in. the spring of 2022. And that's all I. have to say about the Israelis role in. any of this part other than it was their. pit column, the neoonservatives in. America, who really got our policy off.

this way in the first place. and Robert. Kagan's disgusting wife, Victoria. Nuland, who really was the ring leader. behind the overthrow of 2014, which was. even what Carl Gershman, the head of the. NE, called it was the overthrow of the. government there that they did. What uh. can Trump do to help bring peace in. Ukraine? As I mentioned that he. legitimately from every interaction. I've had, from everything I understand,

he legitimately wanted to make very. quickly. >> I think he's totally sincere about it, too. >> But why was he not successful? >> And how can he be successful? What are. your thoughts on that? >> I don't have an answer to the second. one. I don't know what the hell he's. going to do. I'll tell you what, the backstory here is that in September. of 22, the weekend of September 11th, in. fact, of 22, Ukraine had their best few. days. They had a brilliant faint where.

they started building up forces in. Kersan and they convinced the Russians. to move forces to Kersan. Then they made. a huge move in Harkke and forced all the. Russians out of back into Luhansk. And then they also hit them in Kersan. down at the river and kicked them back. across the river and so maintained that. one-third of Kersson on the right bank. I guess I'd call it the right.

>> Yeah, they were extremely successful uh. in those offensives at that time. Probably the most the biggest success. arguably the biggest success of the war. >> Absolutely. And it's been all downhill. from there. And the worst thing probably. of all is that Putin said, "Oh yeah, well I hereby annex Zaprosia and Kursan. too." These are the two provinces. between the Donbass and the Crimea. And. he hadn't claimed them yet. Now this is. the so-called land bridge. Importantly, the Ukrainians gave him a real motive to. do this because they had cut off the.

fresh water. There was a canal from the. Neper River down to Crimea. And to. collectively punish the people of. Crimea, they cut off the water resources. there, which they still had enough for. drinking water, but they did not have. enough for any agriculture or anything. else. And it really hurt them a lot. So. they already had their pretext there to. take that territory so they could reopen. that channel of fresh water to Crimea. And then he was just angry. His men were.

humiliated on the ground there. And he. said, "Oh yeah, well, I hereby annex two. more Oblasts." Then then they passed a. law in the doom man. He signed it, right? And I guess it's two houses. He. signed a law that said, "We've now. redrawn the Russian border here." Okay. But now, if you look at how they're. fighting the war, and I'm not a military. expert on this, but I know some. And for. example, Colonel Douglas McGregor and. Lieutenant Colonel Danny Davis. I think. Davis is the one I trust the best. >> As far as his point of view on that,

>> Sure. >> Uh, just to give a shout out to Daniel. L. Davis that you mentioned. Excellent. podcast. Somebody that I've had a bunch. of conversations with uh privately. He's. a sweetheart. >> Oh, he's a wonderful man. >> First of all, his backstory is a. fascinating one. >> Mhm. >> But also uh he's extremely knowledgeable. on the very nuanced details of all. aspects of military operations. >> Absolutely does. As I mentioned an eon. ago when we began this interview that in.

Iraq war I one. >> yes. >> it was Colonel McGregor with McMaster. and Davis under him that did the battle. of 73 easting against the Iraqi army and. what the Soviet tanks possesses is where. they both all three come from. McMaster. sold his soul to Satan and McGregor and. Davis have been good guy. Well, at least since I rack war. Now, I don't. know if you know this about Danny Davis.

I guess you probably do, but your. audience doesn't. That he was the heroic. whistleblower of the Afghan war in 2012. Do you know that story? Mhm. So, in. 2009, there was a former Marine captain. turned State Department employee named. Matthew Hoe, and he warned Obama not to. do the surge. And his boss, the. ambassador, Iikenberry, he had been the.

general in charge of the war previously. And Iikenberry backed up Hoe and said, "Don't do the surge. That's all Obama. needed to hide behind was Iikenberry and. Ho." And he could have said no. and. instead he gave in and he ordered the. escalation. He had already sent 40,000. troops. Then he announced he's sending. 30,000 more for a total of 70,000. additional troops. The giant horrific. failed Afghan surge of 2009 through 12. And then at the end, Davis was the. whistleblower who broke ranks, testified.

before the Senate, and published an. article in the Armed Forces Journal. saying that David Petraeus is a liar and. that America has not achieved what. Petraeus called success cuz he wouldn't. dare call it victory in the war in. Afghanistan. And that here's the real. truth. And here's how Davis knew is he. had a special job, which was arming and. equipping all the guys all around the. country, whatever they needed. his job. was to go and give them whatever. equipment. So that gave him a special. insight into the war because he was.

going to all areas of the country and. seeing the guys everywhere that they. were. And he said the same thing that. Matthew Ho said. So these boys are. getting killed for this. And then as as. Ho had put it like how am I supposed to. write a letter home to this guy's wife. and say that he died a good death when I. know it's not true. And same thing with. Davis. Like these guys, you know how. military guys are? They talk about these. are my men. They're mine,

you know, and so what do you do when. they're dying for nothing? And so Davis. said enough of this and came home and. did what he could, told the truth to end. the war. And he's a great American. patriot. And he, you're right, he's a. brilliant genius, too. And he's a. brilliant war analyst on all the wars, particularly Ukraine right now. That's. his show is Daniel Davis Deep Dive. Yeah. highly recommend people listen to. DDD uh Daniel Davis Deep Dive. It's on. YouTube. It's on all the podcast. platforms. He served for 21 years in the.

army with four combat deployments and. he's got stars and things too, man. >> Yeah. >> And but the most heroic thing he ever. did was quit and tell the truth. Um. anyway, I trust his analysis of the war. better than anybody else. There's. another uh guy um I really like named. Willie Oam. His name is Matt Williams. He's an Australian veteran of the war in. Afghanistan. You'd really like him. Um. he's a brilliant war analyst. He looks.

at the maps every day and analyzes day. by day by day. Oh, see there's where he. interviewed me. >> Um he's a wonderful guy. I'm afraid he's. got cancer right now. But uh he's he's. hanging in there and and he's a he's. just a brilliant analyst of the world. You'd really like him. and he goes day. by day by day he shows who's taken how. much land. This is why I could only. shake my head at Wesley Clark the other. day that I'm going, "Listen, the. Russians are ascending on the. battlefield, dude. There's no reversing. this. Believe harder. Come on, man." And.

and then he acts like, "What are you. talking about, Horton? The Russians. aren't winning." It's like, "Yeah, they. are, dude. They are. Danny Davis and and. Willie Oam, they're not wrong about. that." you know these reports this. depends I guess on who you're reading. and I do see some kind of wishful. thinking from people from time to time. but no lord they are losing provos is.

about to fall they move they have. virtually 100% of Luhansk they are. making major gains in donk and they're. making moves in denipro pasque which is. the big I can never say it right but. that's as good as I could ever get of. the pro the oblast between the river and. the dawnbass there and of course there's. sumi and harke in the north and all of. this is still in danger of being taken. Um oh and I'm sorry cuz I never really.

answered your question right about. Trump. Trump's problem is Lex that he. got just elected and inaugurated at the. wrong time for his second term here and. the Russians they annex those. territories but they don't control them. Daniel Davis, our tangent here. He. explains that the strategy in the war is. to fight a war of attrition, to grind up. Ukrainian forces with artillery and. airdrop bombs and move slowly to.

preserve Russian soldiers lives and make. the other guys die more. Now, typically, and this is in some specialized stuff. out of my purview, but it's like they. say that like it you lose three three. it's three to one uh disadvantage for. the advancing army on a defensive. position or whatever. That doesn't hold. in all cases. And I think I may even. have said that wrong. Somebody tried to. correct me on that recently. Like it's. it's not exactly that way. But the thing. is it's more dangerous obviously to move.

on a defensive position than to remain. in one. like all other things being. equal, I guess, but then they just have. way more artillery and way more time and. they can just move very slowly and make. sure that actually the the defenders die. at a much higher rate than they do and. they're not running out of artillery and. they're not running out of men. They've. not even launched a full-scale. mobilization for the war. people know. that they're winning and so they're. volunteering to go and get some and um.

and they're they can afford their. economy is not crushed and so they can. afford to pay bonuses and have people. sign up and while meanwhile Ukraine's on. a conscript army that's had at least. tens and some reports say more than. 100,000. of deserters flee the front lines refuse. to fight there's been at least hundreds. of people have drowned to death in the. Denista River on the border murder with. Malddova trying to escape. Um, people.

oppressed gangs riding around in vans. beating people up and kidnapping them. and throwing them in the back of the van. and taking them off to the front to be. killed in a few hours. I It's a horror. show over there, man. And then and I. don't know if Ukraine is going to. survive because see and this is part of. my argument and I said this in my 4-hour. speech right after the war began that. and I was assuming then as a lot of. people did that the Russians were going. to have a lot more success a lot sooner. and that the Ukrainian military would. essentially be smashed and they'd be. fighting an insurgency here which is.

what that was plan B. Plan A was to warn. them don't you do it. Plan B was we're. going to back the mujaheden. In other words, the the Nazis right. sector and ASOV and whatever because the. military will be smashed and Russia will. dominate the entire east of the country. at least was the presumption going in by. the American side. So we're now on like. plan C was actually better than plan B, right? They skipped a step and wanting. to back an insurgency. The state army.

has been able to hold. We're recording. this thing 3 and 1/2 years into the war. and the state army still exists. They've. still been able to pour arms in there. all this time and keep the thing going. for now. But as I predicted in that. speech, I said, you know, this could be. a real pirick victory for the Russians. and. Russia's government is a government. program and all they do is fail upwards. in their self-licking ice cream going. fashion. That's not a speciality about. Americans. That's a specialtity about.

the economics of government monopolies. on security forces, right? And so, think about the map for a minute. Putin. just went in there and drew a line. around all the pro-Russians. Not that everyone who's an ethnic. Russian and a Russian speaker in Ukraine. wanted to join the Russian Federation, but I'm sure you've seen the election. result maps where it goes from dark blue. to dark red and a real kind of grayscale. fade in between there where when you get.

all the way in Donesk and Luansk, you. have people who are, you know, have a. lot of inner marriages and mixed. families across the borders and very. much consider themselves to be Russians. even living inside Ukraine. And I read a. study of Ukrainian nationalism that was. about how the only Ukrainian. nationalists are the Nazis out west. Most Ukrainians really identify with. their city more or their region more. than really considering themselves. overall Ukrainian patriots in that. larger nationalist sense according to.

some some pretty in-depth surveys about. all that they had done in the past. And. so, but anyway, I'm not, in other words, I'm not trying to oversimplify it and. say, "Oh, yeah, everybody in Donetsk was. just begging for Russia to invade or. whatever." Some of them were uh some of. them, of course, were not. But anyway, by drawing the line where he has now, he's now taken everyone who could even. be potentially pro-Russia out of Ukraine.

permanently. So it used to be that the people who. leaned more or less people always said. Yanukovich was Putin's puppet or. whatever. It's not actually true. Separate tangent, but the more or less. Russianleaning guys from the parties in. the east, they would win. That's why. America had to overthrow the government. there twice in 10 years in the Orange. Revolution and the Maidon Revolution. Well, that's never going to happen. again. All of those people are never. going to vote in a Ukrainian election.

again. And who's going to be dominant if. they ever do hold elections? It's. probably going to be somebody to the. right of Zalinski that wins. Remember, Zalinsky was brought in because he was. Jewish meant he wasn't ethnically. Russian. He wasn't ethnically Ukrainian. or like culturally whatever the. sectarian lead with those. He was kind. of a third choice. And he was from so he. wasn't from all the way in the Donbass, right? But he's still a Russian speaker. and ran on peace. That was supposed to. be his charm, right? Well, those days. are over. So, who's going to win now? My.

biggest fear is it's going to be Andrew. Bletki, who's the leader of the AOV. battalion, which is now known as the. Third Army Corps. It went from the AOV. battalion to the AOV regimen to the. third separate infantry division. Now, it's the third army corps. And Bleski is. the guy, the famous quote, I'm sure. you've heard about leading the white. race against the semileled intervention. That's him. And I quote at length that. whole speech, which I found on. archive.org, or you know the the. official ASOB battalion website is down.

but you can find the way back machine. version of it. That whole speech is. absolute insane Hitlerian lunacy about. Aryan values and the nation of Ukraine. is a single living organism and every. egg and every sperm belongs to the state. for the greater glory of the Ukrainian. Empire and just. yeah that's Nazism. All right, that's. exactly what that is. Uh there's no. mistaking it for any other thing. And. these are the proud grandsons of the. Galatian SS and you know who Stephen. Bandera and the UPA and and O.

before the UPA was UN who had served the. Nazis in the Holocaust in the Second. World War. And these are their proud. grandsons and legacies. And this guy. Bleski is from this is called the. Patriot of Ukraine which is a group out. of that was again descended from these. Nazis. and he's he and his ilk are very. likely to be the leaders of the new. Ukraine. And so how's Russia supposed to. deal with that now? Well, now we got to. go to Odessa. So at least we can take.

that great and important port city from. them. And gez, now we can see. Transnistria from here. You know, that. little strip of land that Russia. controls on the Muldoven side of the. river on the Muldoven Ukrainian border. That's Russian controlled land, a frozen. conflict since the end of the Soviet. Union. Well, man, from Crimea we can see. Odessa, and from Odessa we can see. Transnistria, and we can really punish. those Ukrainians by completely cutting. them off from the Black Sea. And then. still you have a frozen conflict with a. bunch of right-wing radical, severely.

anti-Russian, grudgeholding national socialists. And. so now, what is anybody going to do with. them? You know, that's who the new. Ukrainian government is going to be. dominated by his people who are far to. the right of conservative men and and. then what and then so now put put. yourself in Putin's point of view. Again, this is a government program gets. worse and worse and worse. Well, the. next option is now that you've created.

I'm I'm assuming some things, but still. you created a radical right-wing rump. state of Ukraine that is going to. constantly be a disruption. Well, what. you do is you finish cleansing them into. Poland and Romania. You just kick them. all the way out and reabsorb the entire. place, right? That is the obvious. solution from the Russian point of view. And that's how they fight their wars. They just move very slowly with. artillery and wipe out everything in. their path until they own it. That's the.

mess that America has gotten Ukraine in. I don't see how this ends anytime soon. or anytime that really, you know, again from the Russian point. of view. Let's say they take those four. oblasts. Well, look at all the people in. Denipro Pasque and all the people in. Sumi and Harkefe who are Russian. speakers who of course the Russian. government is going to say need our. protection especially now that they're a. smaller minority in the country than. before when their side will never win an. election again, a national election. again. Well, we're going to have to go.

all the way to the river now, right? It. only makes sense, man. It's a government. program. It's a disaster and it's going. to keep getting worse and worse and. worse. I really hope the next leader of Ukraine. is not a right-wing extremist as you're. suggesting. >> Yeah, me too. >> And uh I think the bigger picture here. is as we've been talking about for many. hours that it's the uh politicians and. the bureaucrats that waged the war and.

it's. regular people that pay the price of it. >> That's right. As Azie Osborne said, right? And they leave that all to the. poor. >> Rest in peace, by the way. Aussie. Osborne. Yeah, man. I think this whole. conversation was a really deep. eloquent case against war. in all parts of the world and especially. to the degree United States is involved. and your whole life's work.

has to been this incredible case against. war with anti-war.com. with the libertarian institute with all. the work you've done. And so. in this goal, I'm very much with you. 100%. I'm really glad that you're doing. the work you're doing. So thank you for. fighting the good fight. >> Thank you very much, Lex. As long as. here, I'll say one more thing, which is.

uh if you've ever heard of the great. libertarian Tom Woods from the Mises. Institute and the Libertarian Institute, he has something called Liberty. Classroom where it's him and his. professor friends telling you the truth. about the things that they were supposed. to teach you in school but didn't. Well, he built me my own Liberty Classroom. It's called the Scott Horton Academy of. Foreign Policy and Freedom. And if. anybody got all the way through this. podcast this far, they might be. interested to know. We plan on going. live.

um next month and it's two huge courses. on the Middle East and the Cold War with. Russia by me. And then I also have the. great James Bvard, the most successful. and important libertarian journalist in. world history. Uh current writer for the. New York Post and fellow at the. institute. Uh great author, brilliant. man. is going to be doing a course on. his entire career of investigative. journalism. And then we have Ramsay. Birud is going to do the story of Israel. Palestine, the great Palestinian refugee.

and exile, writer of the Palestine. Chronicle and a regular writer with us, a regular contributor at anti-war.com, good friend of mine, wonderful man. Then. we also have William Bupert on how uh. he's a army infantry officer and uh. expert on debunking the bankrupt. counterinsurgency doctrine of David. Petraeus and James Mattis. Uh they call. it coin in Afghanistan and Iraq. Uh he. debunks all that and is from the Chasing. Ghosts podcast and he's going to do a.

course on how America lost every war. since 1945. And then the great historian, dangerous. history, CJ Kilmer, is going to be doing. a course on how Woodro Wilson is the. worst person who ever lived because of. course he is the father of Lenin and. Stalin. Uh Lenin and Stalin and Hitler. and World War II and for that matter the. American Empire to contain communism. after it was all over too. And so um. it's going to be a hell of a thing, man.

And we got a bunch of great guys doing. really great work to put this thing. together. So that's at. scotterortonacademy.com. >> and it will go live September. >> I'm really hoping in August. Uh maybe. not. So you can watch first of all this. awesome video by Dan Smottz who's the. most talented video editor in the world. But then also just enter your email. address. Then you'll be the first to. know when we go live and launch the. Scott Horton Academy. >> Scott, thank you brother. Appreciate it.

Thanks for listening to this. conversation with Scott Horton. To. support this podcast, please check out. our sponsors in the description. And. now, let me leave you once again with. the words of Dwight D. Eisenhower spoken. in 1953. Every gun that is made, every warship. launched, every rocket fired signifies. in the final sense a theft from those. who hunger and are not fed, those who.

are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money. alone. It is spending the sweat of its. laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. The cost of. one modern heavy bomber is this. a. modern brick school in more than 30. cities. It is two electric power plants. each serving a town of 60,000. population. It is two fine fully. equipped hospitals. It is some 50 m of. concrete highway. We pay for a single.

fighter plane with a half million. bushels of wheat. We pay for a single. destroyer with new homes that could have. housed more than 8,000 people. This is. not a way of life at all in any true. sense. Under the cloud of threatening. war, it is humanity hanging from a cross. of iron. Thank you for listening and. hope to see you next time.