Sarma Melngailis: Bad Vegan, Fraud, Prison, and Sociopathy | Lex Fridman Podcast #288

he made me think that you know. everything was going to be reversed and. okay and anybody that. money was borrowed from they would get. it back you know maybe tenfold and so it. was this weird situation of. having like one foot in his reality. and. potentially believing the things he was. saying or. even over time. wanting to believe them more and more. because the alternative was so. the alternative was worse the. alternative was like. was increasingly a bigger and bigger.

nightmare. the following is a conversation with. sarma melangalis. a chef and restaurateur who was the. subject of the netflix documentary bad. vegan. fame fraud and fugitives that documents. the rise and fall of her vegan raw food. restaurants in new york city that ended. in what she called a road trip from hell. being arrested in tennessee her pleading. guilty for stealing over 2 million. dollars and serving 4 months at rikers.

island jail. sarma disputes the veracity of the. documentary and its conclusions saying. that she was misrepresented. so i wanted to talk to her to get the. full story and to seek understanding of. who she is as a human being the good. and the bad. this is the lex freeman podcast to. support it please check out our sponsors. in the description and now dear friends. here's sama mangalas.

you've said that you did a lot of. reading when you were growing up and you. mentioned fear and loathing in las vegas. by hunter s thompson. so from the reading you've done in those. early days. how did you see the world. was it to you a beautiful place or a. cruel place. i don't think i thought about the world. you're focused on family just basic. day-to-day life i think i was focused on. day to day i had an awareness of not. fitting in but i think back then it felt.

like something was wrong versus. some people are just that way. and speaking of books i read a book. called um. party of one by a woman named annelie. rufus that somebody gave me and. suggested i read and that helped a lot. that was that was one book that made me. feel like. it made me understand things from the. past that i hadn't understood before. specifically kind of feeling out of. place even among my family which is. where you're not supposed to feel out of.

place. yeah i'm not sure where i saw it but i. think you mentioned that you're a bit of. a loner and i also think. i saw somewhere pictures of you with the. with green hair. in high school and a wild haircut what's. that about is that was that real am i. just imagining no you're not imagining. it it's strange because. i was kind of a a loner. so it'd be strange to do something that. calls so much attention to yourself. because back then i mean i grew up in a.

suburb of boston um in newton. and. anybody that was there around that time. probably if you said you know that girl. with green hair or blue hair was blue. most of the time they would remember. like seeing me walking down the street. because it stood out like crazy. especially back then now it wouldn't. stand out so much but back then it. really stood out. so. i was trying to think about why. i did that when. i i was kind of a kind of shy and.

on the one hand wouldn't want to bring. attention to myself but i did something. that did. and it wasn't. my family to their credit. they were fine with it so it wasn't a. rebellion against them or anything like. that they were fine with it i don't. think they loved it but yeah dad was a. physicist at mit yes so. uh so he was he was cool here with your. green hair when you're a rebellion. that's just the way of life he was fine.

with the green hair but i think in some. ways maybe they had to be fine with it. because i didn't cause problems. otherwise and. i got good grades in school. i. was a very low maintenance child i think. even with a green hair. uh so hunter s thompson uh wrote a lot. of good stuff uh. he has a lot of just brilliant quotes a. lot of brilliant lines um so. one of the ones i love is life should.

not be a journey to the grave with the. intention of arriving safely in a pretty. and well-preserved body but rather just. skidding broadside in a cloud of smoke. thoroughly used up totally worn out. and loudly proclaiming. wow what a ride. what do you think about that is that. good life advice. from hunter s thompson. i think so. he i think he followed it right. somewhere um i heard recently what he.

consumed in a day. yeah and it was. kind of astonishing. it's funny i when i was in college there. were always really interesting people. coming through speakers and whatnot and. i tended to not go to events and whatnot. but in the four years i was there the i. mean really interesting people came. through and gave talks you know i don't. know just. a lot of famous people and. um but then one day hunter s thompson. came to speak and i was the only one i. attended oh wow so the only.

interesting person who came to speak on. the campus that i attended was hunter s. thompson and he had a. you know he had a glass of whatever it. was whiskey. and i don't remember a whole lot about. it but it was it was entertaining. and yeah i mean later in his life he. started making less and less sense but. he was still somehow. like embodying the the crazy that he. represented throughout his life the. boldness the fearlessness the wildness. all that kind of stuff and we'll talk. about johnny depp a little bit too funny. enough there's like a echo.

obviously he. johnny depp played him. or he started unloading and they hung. out together and it just seemed to. somehow. like the universe rhymes in these two. individuals. they're both mad men and in different. kind of ways so you also told me that. leon the professional is one of your. favorite films. it's also the reason you named your dog. leon so. uh what do you find beautiful and. powerful about this film. i've watched it a bunch of times but.

it's been a while since i've watched it. so for people who haven't watched it it. there's a guy named leon played by jon. renau. there's a. um a young girl. i don't know 13 14. matilda played by natalie portman. and she's abused she has a really hard. life. her parents are spoiler alert. uh murdered. and then she finds protection under this.

um. fella. uh. leon who's also happens to be a. professional assassin. and he is also kind of a forest gump. type character like he's a really simple. human uh he almost he seems to be like. the immature one or like rather the one. who's young and she seems to have a. wisdom far beyond her age. because of the hard life she had to live. through and then and they're here.

huddling together. from the the cruelty of the world um. in and finding connection. yeah i think it's one of those films. where there's so many interesting things. about it but. you know i'm sure one of them is just. the contradiction of him being. a caring person and reluctant to get. attached to her you know he tries to i. think he knows he's he's very reluctant. to get attached to her in the beginning. um. and. so you see all of his humanity but yet.

he's also an assassin that kills people. so. um. that's interesting and i think. probably a psychoanalyst would have a. field day with why i like that movie so. much um and i haven't neces i haven't. gone there myself but. there's something i think about she. even in the brief part. that depicts her in the beginning. it seems clear that she's sort of out of. place in her family. um. and.

um and then yeah there's all kinds of. interesting things about their. relationship along the way. what i like about that movie and i had. to think about it recently because i've. read stuff about it. that bothered me. or it bothered me the fact that i. haven't really thought about it before. for people haven't watched the movie so. here's a young underage girl who kind of. comes onto him. first of all i think she actually just. doesn't. know what. like familial love is.

so this is the only way she knows how to. express love that's one. and two is. you know a lot of bad people in this. world would take advantage of that. right. and the fact that. um. she finally met a human being who. doesn't. and is just there to protect her. that's a real sort of um. i don't know a powerful statement of. what it means to be sort of like a. father figure i suppose a protector.

so that. that to me i i i love the idea of being. the sort of the the protector. that there's something. like uh something worthwhile in this. world to protect. amidst all the cruelty that's all around. so that's that's a beautiful kind of. you're basically saving. this young humans. or you're repairing this young human's.

path. to love to real love. in life because that idea of love was. destroyed for her just family everything. is is everything is uh. sort of uh everything around is broken. and he's kind of repairing it by. re-establishing what that kind of love. can be i don't know. and the plant. that's spreading they save the plant. also. well there's also just a simple the.

simplicity of the film just from a. cinematic perspective is beautiful the. music. the way it looks the minimalism even the. violence was beautiful. yeah violence it was over the top. and also the the bad guy the bad cop. played by um. gary oldman. yeah he was amazing yeah i think he was. listening to beethoven or something like. that and you're taking some sort of. pills and drugs and some kind and. uh so there was a kind of like uh like.

like it's part of the orchestra like the. violence was part. of the. of some kind of. musical creation. yeah it's interesting because i i turn. away from. violence or films usually that have. violence or tv or anything that has that. sort of. um. element to it except in certain. cases where. um. where the violence is beautiful. yeah. yeah or um.

did you see the movie true romance. uh yes that's my second favorite movie. okay that's probably my favorite movie. yeah oh well interesting that's my. second favorite movie um that's that's a. more uh simple kind of love but also. with the violence that is beautiful yeah. as you could say yeah and my um. my favorite scene is the one with. patricia arquette and james gandolfini. oh yeah was she there's a shotgun. involved yeah yeah. and then it actually makes me cry every. time i see it.

for some reason. [Laughter]. so for people who haven't seen the film. i think. i think he's actually he think he's. hitting her. or. um like there's blood and violence and. so on because he's resisting being. murdered. yeah there's a lot of violence and then. you know he throws her into the glass. um the shower yeah. thing and she's all cut up and beat up. and only and she laughs yeah there's.

just so much passion in it you know. she's she knows she's gonna or. in that moment she. knows or thinks she knows that she's. gonna die anyway yeah because she she. knows he's gonna kill her yeah so she. kind of gives it her. gives it all she has and um. but she also just says guts she's not. afraid. yeah. well and also she's um. you know she loves clarence. yeah the love comes through through that. violence yeah yeah just like uh clarence.

her fella. in that film. uh has the same kind of thing when he. visits well it was gary oldman again it. was gary oldman again that's right the. pimp looking very drexel drexel yeah. yeah and he's also fearless in that. interaction saying she's not mine. it's interesting that movie is so. romantic. and that a happy ending spoiler alert in. a way that's what i like about it too. because i i feel like some movies should. come with. i don't want to watch a movie if it's.

going to be devastating usually unless. it's worthwhile in some other way but. i'm kind of sensitive and i don't want. um i don't like movies that have a. terrible ending you know i mean. there's a book i read because it got so. many good reviews and the very last. scene the woman steps in front of a. train and it was like. um so i'm partial to movies with happy. endings leon ends. with loss. beyond the movie right but it's still.

inspiring a love persists in some kind. of form yeah persists and the plant. and the plant. um okay sure sure. true romance does have one of the i mean. it's probably unhealthy and the whole. scene is just amazing you're so cool was. she. is that one knowing where she just kind. of. looks at clarence and her son and child. or whatever and. she's saying you're so cool you're so. cool.

yeah. that's that's love. i just that movie has so much in it. because it's. you know it's funny and there's so many. so many good actors in that film and. brad pitt uh plays in that film a. pivotal role of pothead on couch yeah. they're just they're all so good and. funny and michael rappaport yeah and um. and even val kilmer people don't realize. he's in the movie because he doesn't. look like himself. um wait what what is val val kilmer's in. the very end it's.

um you know when he's there's like the. elvis sitting there. talking to him in the end yeah that's. val kilmer. yeah you don't notice it unless you. yeah somehow either are very perceptive. or noticed in the credits yeah and uh. quentin tarantino wrote the film i think. yes which is interesting. uh directed by tony scott and the music. is uh beautiful too and christopher. walken and um.

um. dennis. hopper dennis hopper dennis hopper plays. clarence's. dad uh dad and they have this. very racist sounding scene but. the big. uh. important aspect of that scene is it's a. father. willing to die. to protect the sun i mean it's so much. so much beautiful violence there is. there is i love that phil so much uh and. she's a prostitute or not really.

part-time short time no it was her first. time first time yeah. okay and he saved her. and uh. hmm. my third favorite film has no violence. whatsoever what's your third um a room. with a view. i feel like you'd like it it's um. um. i forget the author it's a book and i i. read the book much later um but it's um. helena bonham carter.

and um. uh daniel day-lewis. is in it and julian sands. daniel day-lewis is a fascinating. character. he's amazing in this film because he. plays. he's very funny he sort of plays a he's. a comical character which is unlike. most of what he does i think i don't. watch a ton of movies so. um but. yeah he played his his role is funny.

well that's a that's a heck of a top. three. uh you you brought me some books some. bread and books. yeah. some russian bread russian inspired. bread. yeah i mean it's latvian but it's. similar to close enough similar to. what's made in russia and it's made at a. russian bakery and your dad is from. right my dad is from latvia yeah. so you got me some books. beautiful ruins yeah and if you never. read them who cares that's totally fine.

you know people give you books and then. you feel like. you just. you're i don't you sort of feel like i i. see this is we'll we'll talk about this. this is part therapy session i don't. feel the need. to to satisfy people's happiness that's. a good thing okay so but they it could. also be a. an opportunity to experience something i. never otherwise would have so beautiful. ruins. it's a book that made me laugh and cry. and it's just a happy story and for some. reason i don't know exactly why but for.

some reason. um. when you asked me to come first it just. i thought oh i'm gonna bring a copy of. that book. that's you just felt it came the voice. told you yeah there's others darkness. visible these are more a memoir of. madness compelling harrowing a vivid. portrait of a. debilitating disorder it offers the. solace of shared experience the new york. times this is. a little bit. about this book that reminds me of um.

the carl. deisseroth book because he. writes about his own condition in um i. mean he's an amazing writer so he writes. about it in this beautiful way and. oddly enough in some ways it's kind of. delightful so it's not at all a. depressing book at least i didn't find. it depressing at all i don't think it is. um but he writes about. his own experience with depression in. such a beautiful way. um my own copy is full of underlines.

um i would have loved that copy too i i. would love to look into the underlines. and the and then the books with notes. those little secrets that people leave. part of why i like paper books is. because i underline i tend to underline. like crazy the the carl dice book is. full of underlines too well i do the. same thing on kindle but. um and then you can actually more. effectively go back to the things you've. underlined because you highlight and so. on but in fact when you underline in.

on paper. books. you sometimes never go back. which always makes me sad to the book to. the things you've underlined in the. paper books yeah in the paper books oh i. do i go back. yeah i go back a lot do you wonder what. what the heck you were thinking about. when you wrote something. no well sometimes i underline things. that are well also what i do is i have a. whole file in evernote. of. transcribed quotes from books ones that. i want to save so i might underline a.

lot of things in a book and then. maybe like a third of them. i want to write them down somewhere. so i i write those down and i think even. the time it takes to transcribe it is. somehow worthwhile it's like searing it. in your brain. and um and you're reliving the memory. having it read it the first time yeah. and then sometimes i'll pick up books i. even um. and sometimes i just underline sentences. that are it's not the content of the. sentence it's more that it's just a. beautifully written sentence or like a.

particularly apt metaphor or something. that's that's really nice um. and i like paper books too because i. bought beautiful ruins i would have. never heard of it i don't think except. one of my favorite things is to go to. used bookstores. actually goodwill sometimes has really. good. big book selections and depending on the. area where you go. um sometimes you find a lot of treasures. there. and what ends up happening a lot is i. end up buying books that i know.

sometimes also because i lost all my. belongings at one point so i'll very. often buy books that i've already read. just to have them. and um. but then what always ends up happening. is i'll. find. there'll be a couple of books that i buy. that i've never heard of the author i. don't really know anything about i don't. know anything about the book at all but. something drew me to it and. what i like about that is you're buying. you're buying used books so it costs a. dollar or two so if you made a mistake. like no big deal who cares so but every.

time i come back with a book haul. there's usually. at least one. gem that i end up loving and i'm so glad. that i read it and beautiful ruins was. that book for me and i was drawn to it. because of the cover art like i just. loved i just loved the cover and the. colors. and um and then i picked it up and read. the bag and and bought it and. um i also feel bad sometimes buying used. books when the author is still alive. because i feel like if you write a book. you should get the. the royalties so um.

and but you get to live with that regret. well also i mean i'll usually end up. putting a picture of leon reading the. book online and then other people buy it. and read it and so i feel like i've made. up for make up for it i've made up for. depriving him of the. royalties i used to live. in cambridge massachusetts. i know it well i used to hang out in the. pit in harvard square with my green and. blue hair when i was very way too young. to be doing that by myself. and there's a guy.

that i think has been there for a long. time. sort of between. kendall and central. that would just lay out these books and. sell them i always loved that guy. whoever he was. he had a cool hat he's an older. gentleman. and you could just tell he's seen some. things. i don't know who he is i always wanted. to actually. like talked to him for a long time but i. was too afraid. maybe because i wouldn't be able to. handle what he had to tell me i didn't. because i almost wanted to maintain the.

innocence of just okay here's this guy. but he's he was so. every time you would ask him a question. about a book first of all he's read all. of them. oh that's interesting which means he's. traveled. quite a few places inside these worlds. and then you would tell him. i would look at a book right. and you just he would catch you being. curious about it and then he would walk. up to you and then he would start. talking about the book and he would. always. forget that you were there he's almost.

like. he's not trying to sell you the books. start talking to himself yeah yeah yeah. like almost like an ex-girlfriend he's. visiting through this book or something. did you buy books from him yeah yeah. definitely but the experience of just. just being there because he lays them. out and people actually that watch or. listen to this. probably will be able to tell me what. his name is because i'd love to find. that guy again i'm sure he's still there. maybe he'll have him on the podcast i. would 100 will. uh but this it's almost terrifying. um i'm not sure i can handle.

because he's been through some things. i'm not sure if he's homeless or. or just looks like it. yep. that's sometimes a thing. and uh some of my favorite people. either are harmless or look like it so. okay what's the third one. the uh a confession of a sociopath by. m.e thomas a life spent hiding in plain. sight it's a book i recommend a lot um. because i've read a lot about sociopathy.

and i've read all the books by. psychologists and um. and this one's written by a woman who. um understands herself that she is a. sociopath and so it's beautifully. written but i learned i learned more. from that book than from any other book. and. i think i thought about it a long time. ago. i think a lot of. conversations you've talked a lot about. good and evil and. you know whether everybody's really good. or. some people are not good. um. and i think sociopathy is that.

is something that i think. the world needs to understand much. better and so that that book helped me. understand a lot and it's beautifully. written and she. tackles all the really interesting moral. questions like. um. you know like what if we were able to. definitively. diagnose people in some way like there. was a. you could immediately identify. who's a full-blown sociopath and then. what as a society would you do with them.

because in most cases. you know they're just going to cause. destruction and pain and harm and or. potentially rise to power and become. president. or something. um. so it's i just found that book. fascinating. and we'll return. to this idea because it's fascinating. we'll return to human psychology and. human nature but let's go through um.

let's go. through the timeline of your life let's. take a stroll. so uh you wrote that the documentary. about you called bad vegan fame fraud. fugitives is not a documentary it got. some things right something's wrong and. some were quote disturbingly misleading. so let's go through and get things right. today. um. first can i give you a whirlwind summary. the way i understand it and also for.

context of people. so 2004. you. matthew kenny and jeffrey chattero. open pure foods and wine in new york. city did i say their names correctly. pure food and wine no they're oh theirs. well yeah matthew kenny jeffrey chattaro. yeah yeah so it's uh. and i'll ask about what it takes to. to. to launch and run a restaurant in new. york city that's a fascinating story in. itself so it's an upscale raw food.

restaurant. all right that's 2004 2007 you opened. one lucky duck juice and takeaway. and second and third locations in 2009. and 14. uh all of those things closed. in uh 2016. 15 16 15 and 16 okay. all right 2009. jeffrey lends you 2.1 million dollars to. buy the business outright and matthew is. out.

matthew was out earlier than that and. then time passed time passed and i had. um. what was complicated is i had started. the one lucky duck brand on my own. um at first it was a com that was doing. like delivery. it was a it was a com where people could. order ingredients and things and all of. the products that we made and packaged. so we made a bunch of cookies and snacks. and things that were i think different. and. if i may say so myself better than other.

um strong words products. already yeah but then about the cookies. but i feel like i can brag about our. food and products because. um i wasn't oh you know a few recipes. recipes early on i came up with but it. was. the people that. worked with me that created really good. recipes and products and. i was just kind of there. curating it all or. um helping to.

get it out there what was your favorite. thing that you've created maybe yourself. eat. not you created but this whole. all of these efforts have created in. terms of meal. like. you said cookies what are we talking. about that's a hard question um it's. just okay not the favorite but like. something that pops into memory that. brought you joy. the malomar. everybody loved the malamar it was so. very often we made. like raw vegan versions of things that. people are.

um familiar with. so it was a. i think it was pecans it was like a. salty. cookie made with nuts and then covered. in chocolate and then there's a big blob. of. coconut cream um i love coconut which it. didn't taste coconutty. um our ice cream was made with a coconut. also it's like the meat from coconuts. pureed. and then there's some soaked cashews in. there but anyways a blob of vanilla. flavored cream kind of like a. a you know like a healthy natural.

version of fluff. i don't know if you're familiar with. fluff. basically every single word you say i'm. not familiar with you should see my diet. i don't. it's like steak and vegetables a fluff. is like a thing that i remember it from. my childhood like peanut butter and. fluff is a ridiculously delicious. combination is it fluffy or is it it's. like a marshmallow it's basically like. like if you softened marshmallows and. made it into a. luxurious amazing goose it's like a fan. and then put it in a jar. okay and then they just spreadable it's.

spreadable marshmallows kind of oh i see. i think that's yes so spreadable. marshmallows got it yeah so there's a. big blob i didn't know that existed. that's a thing. fluff i know does everyone for you do. people know about this. oh yeah everybody knows. people i mean i think so people know. about fluff and see i think i went. i i took the road less traveled by you. know i went the. the peanut butter and nutella road in. terms of spreadable things nutella is.

like the chocolate version. and then fluff is like the vanilla. equivalent sort of cool but i think. commercial fluff that you buy in the. store is just like sugar and whatever. else they put in there. um. anyway not actually fluffy. it's it's kind of fluffy. okay but it's wet because nutella is. it's like fluffy. yeah it's it so it's like nutella if you. whipped it and then kind of got a little. bit like.

a little bit aerated so it's a bit more. fluffy so fluff was a part of the. formula here so it was fun but so the. the coconut cream. that we made. was like a healthy version of fluff. oh kind of nice except it would you know. you could make a. quenelle like a like a little scoop of. it and it would stay in that form. malomars were refrigerated and then. there's like chocolate. um drizzled over that so it had that.

like salty sweet thing going on um that. was probably my favorite. that's a dessert. yeah it was like a it was like a dessert. snack it wasn't as you wouldn't order it. on the restaurant menu but in the. takeaway you could get them or sometimes. some people would get them um. shipped on dry ice and pay a lot of. money. like a lot of money to have them shipped. on dry ice. people are funny i know i kind of want. to like name drop because it was tom. brady used to order them oh that's.

awesome yeah they would order those. shipped um on ice. to boston. um. yeah. continuing on. in 2011 you meet anthony strangers on. twitter and then in real life. also around this time. i think before you got your rescue dog a. pit bull named leon. yeah 2011 2010. do you remember um it. was september. so because i think he was born roughly. around march i gave him a designated.

birthday. of march 10th 2010. why is that why why. march 10th i wrote about the story of. adopting him on my. website a long time ago and then i. reposted it here on my current website. and um what happened. i got weirdly obsessed with. leon before he was leon he was a a dog. in a shelter named quinn. and um i couldn't stop thinking about. him and him specifically him. specifically you saw him and there's. something very special about him i was.

trying to convince somebody else to. adopt a dog. so and i alec baldwin yeah and it didn't. occur to me that i like how you didn't. name drop him but you know i'm tom brady. i like it um. so. i was trying to convince him to get a. dog cause i thought you know he should. have a dog. i saw leon's picture and just got. weirdly obsessed with it in a way that i. couldn't really explain and um i was. laying in bed one night and thinking i. just couldn't stop thinking about him.

um. the dog and. the paper or the his description in the. shelter bio said that he was roughly. five months old or however whatever it. gave us his age i went back and. it would have been march 20. would have been march of that year that. he was born. and um. i had a cat that i was particularly. attached to. i had two cats brother and sister but. the the boy cat we had sort of like a. something that felt like a.

you know like we'd look at each other. and. like there was something there i don't. know what it was but um and in fact when. he got sick i i knew it before he even. had any symptoms it was like something. in the way that he looked at me i knew. something was wrong. and then. uh was it friendship was it. like uh was their power dynamic. cats seem to not really. give a fuck yeah they seem to dismiss. you. usually yeah your your entire worth as a.

human being right in a single look. was that there or um he was more. dog-like. he would occasionally fetch like this. little styrofoam thing i had he would. fetch it and bring it back and he was um. friendly and you know if somebody came. over you would jump in their lap um. he was less standoffish than most cats. but there was just something. about the way he would look at me i. don't know and i. maybe. probably in his mind he's just a cat.

i give him food whereas in my mind it's. some kind of you know. great soul connection. great but not enough long-running uh. romance not in his kitty mind but either. way so he died in march and i thought um. so. i sort of concocted this. i just thought. um you know that well if he died and. he died on march 10th and so i thought. well maybe leon was born that same day. and that's why. that's why i'm so drawn to him.

i don't know. that that mean okay that makes sense but. then you just found that like sort of. when you saw him you just like there's. something it was this picture yeah oh. the picture and you were drawn something. about the personality in the eyes. it was something about his picture i. don't know what it was and um. and. everybody at the time was like what are. you thinking why would you get a dog you. can't you know. you can't even take care of yourself.

you're overworked and busy and why would. you get a five-month-old. pitbull mix you know why not get an. older dog that's easier to take care of. and. um for me it was like i don't i don't. want any dog i don't want. my intention isn't to get a dog but. there's something about this dog that i. have to get and so. i went to see him. um. and then i had already filled out an. application it was just. i went to see him and then i it was the. afternoon.

and i. sort of decided in my head like all. right i'm coming back to get him i have. to and so the next morning i got on the. subway i went back to get him um and i. was crying on the subway and i remember. thinking that people. i don't like crying in public i cry a. lot but i don't like crying in front of. other people. and um i love it. i thought people on the train looking at. me probably think that. you know i just somebody died or sorry. you're crying on the way there on the. way back on the way there to get him.

yeah i don't and i don't know why i was. crying it was just something about it. was overwhelming so. tortillas of happiness or tears of. something something i yeah i think tears. are. overwhelming i. i know i'm like. jumping off but. there was some i don't know i'm trying. was it in your conversation or the book. carl diceroff talks about tears of joy. and trying to explain them and he said. something about how it was like. about. you know because tears of sadness.

could. be understood in a having like a. evolutionary purpose um but why tears of. joy and i think he said it was something. about like. hope that could be. like lost. so if you cried at a wedding it might be. like you're crying because their love is. beautiful and you're crying because you. know they could get hit by a bus. tomorrow or something you know like it. had something to do with that and i. thought um.

but i thought to me it feels like. overwhelm because then how would that. explain music because music will make me. cry. because it's. it's anything beautiful. like love. you realize you're going to have it's. going to be over one day. or it's just overwhelming it could be. overwhelming i think it's just. overwhelming but over it could like if. you had to explain. like one way to explain it as you're. saying is. it's so awesome. that it breaks your heart that it's.

gonna be over this feeling is going to. be over. the. either it's the song or the person. you're going to lose them one day. but even when you're just watching. something that this is completely. ridiculous but i remember one time i. probably was hormonal or something but. it was like an episode of family feud. years ago and the. fam oh no. um. wheel of fortune it was wheel of fortune. and some family like won all this money. and they were so happy like it just they.

were so happy they must probably needed. the money or something and i started. crying and i'm thinking. why am i crying but i think it's just i. think it's just like an overwhelming i. think it's overwhelming in some way on. the surface. because is a relief like you feel better. after you cry. but that's not doesn't explain the. crying you feel better after you cry. and you're saying it's overwhelming but. that's on the surface. the question is what's going on. underneath that's. the younging shadow and i don't think.

neither you or i can answer that. question right but there's something. going on there's probably something that. touches you in some specific way yeah um. and so you were crying in the subway. so i was crying in the subway very it's. a very new york thing to do. yeah i well that's one of the things i. love about new york is people you can. be weird and. do strange things and nobody's going to. look at you strangely or the fascinating. thing about new york is super crowded. and yet you can still feel super alone.

but also energized because a lot of. other things and places. will make me feel depleted but there's. something about the energy of new york. specifically that feels energizing. i mean everybody is. going up about their day excited for a. future they're building and so on and. that that could be energy. sure. sure. it could be overwhelming though. it can be yeah i mean also depending on.

what neighborhood. and what part well i'm just talking. about the subway. right yeah and then there's the. musicians. i love new york new york at his best is. a special place i've never lived but. every time i visit. it's so many characters so many. fascinating people yeah and and then. there's a bunch of people always crying. in the subway and you're one of those. people i was one of those people one day. yeah so i befriended some. busking musicians like the the guys that. just. play out on the street these two young.

guys playing guitar and i felt like it. was one of those moments where it was. like handed camera because nobody was. paying attention and i thought it was. like. i was so beautiful i may have cried or. almost cried or um but anyway i ended up. becoming friends with them and um. helping them out in some ways and um and. i knew i was like well they're gonna. do really well. um. and now they're like playing. large places and. it's kind of fun to watch via instagram. you know they're going on tour in europe.

and they were these two. scrappy guys well now it's just one of. the guys and. um. but they had like no money nowhere to. live nothing. and um another. and they didn't quit they're on tour no. persisted. yeah exactly so um but i cried on the. subway and i got there and um he was. there and i adopted him but it just felt. very. profoundly. um like a force that was beyond me.

like i couldn't not get him so he was. the same in person as he was in the. picture. like meaning in terms of like. something. like pulling you towards him like. something yeah when i first met him the. day before he was really distracted. which i think is. um. you know he is a puppy that spends most. of his day in a cage which is not. natural so when i. think let him they let me take him for a. walk and he was kind of you know. distracted and all over the place but.

then. when we put him back in the cage. he sort of lay down and looked at me and. i looked back at him and of course i. imagined all kinds of i just looked at. him and i thought all right i'm don't. worry i'm coming back to get you like. i'll i'll get you. so. um. yeah it just. it felt like um. it felt like something that i i had no. choice that i had to do and that was the. beginning of a 12-year.

journey together an ongoing an ongoing. one but so i wrote about these things on. my website and um and i think it was you. know among the many things that was. later weaponized by. um. anthony strange's. just oh the fact that because i was so. open to heart about it yeah and also. just it's not like i believe that he was. you know that i was just expressing my. feelings about how i felt going to get. him that there was something about. leon and specifically that i it was like.

i felt like i had to get him so. um is there words you can put to your. connection with leon. like is it love. is it. friendship is it. some kind of like what is it. or or are we getting to the crying and. being overwhelmed something you just. can't put words to. yeah it's probably something that's hard. to put words to kind of like i sort of. feel like.

love being something that's hard to. define is part of. is the definition of love the fact that. you can't define it you know the moment. you define it you're no longer talking. about love. sort of something like that um. so well my definition of love is. whatever's going on in true romance yeah. i don't know. let me fly through the timeline. before we get to any of the interesting. details so.

in 2011 you meet anthony stranges then. in 2012 you to get married. uh 2015. the staff walk out due to failure to pay. from the two restaurants. it reopens in april of 2015 and july of. that year there's another walkout and so. on there's. all this kind of confusing timeline. well it's not to me that's not even. the point is in 2015 there's.

chaos happening okay uh 2016 in the. spring pure foods and wine closes closed. in um. 2015 2015. okay. there's some factual stuff that's not. yeah maybe correct man to me it's not. that important to me the spirit of the. thing is important. okay may 12. 2016 you and your then husband anthony. strange's were arrested after he ordered. pizza using his real name okay in may.

2017 you pleaded guilty to stealing more. than two million dollars from investors. and. scheming to defraud as well as this is. from wikipedia. yeah wrong. well let me just finish reading it and. then you tell me why it's wrong in may. 2017 you pleaded guilty to stealing more. than two million dollars from investors. and scheming to defraud as well as. criminal tax fraud charges why is. wikipedia wrong and how dare you.

well it's about i mean i did plead. guilty to those things which um. i had to oh i was. i got a jury duty summons and i had to. fill out like what charges i pled guilty. to um and i had to go online and look it. up because i didn't. really remember which is i thought that. was interesting. i had to go look it up but actually let. me finish the time because there's one. more point oh yeah. march 16th 2022. bad vegan documentary comes out.

where you're interviewed. does they tell the story. some stuff is true sometimes some is not. some is disturbingly misleading as you. said okay timeline over anyway what. what's wrong with the um. how would you elaborate onto the you. pleading guilty for two million dollars. stealing so a lot of people plead guilty. when they're for reasons other than. they're actually guilty. so you know it's. even right now if i knew that i was.

gonna have to spend four months or three. and a half. um. at rikers. and i was thinking about this recently. and even if i knew. that i'd be acquitted at the end of a. trial. i very. likely would have just taken the four. months because. um. you know the stress of going through a. trial but in particular be incredibly. stressful not knowing the outcome um and.

then money and expense i didn't have and. so. you know people plead guilty all the. time even if they don't think that they. that they should um. and my situation was so complicated. and hard to understand. that it just was the easier thing to do. but also i just was kind of going on the. advice of lawyers and um. so the the choice just so i understand. was to plead guilty. or to go through a lengthy trial.

and that trial. would stretch. a long time and it would be extremely. stressful and extremely expensive. because you have to pay the lawyers. right and i didn't have anything. right. and so a lot of people in that situation. might choose to plead guilty and so that. doesn't necessarily mean. the full heaviness of that statement of. guilt. right and i think people plead guilty. all the time in situations where they're. being threatened with uh.

like a heavy sentence um. and they sort of feel like they have no. choice but that's kind of part of. a lot of things that are messed up about. the system overall that didn't. necessarily apply in my case but. so we'll talk about to what degree. you're guilty. and what that even means yeah. yeah. it because it depends on. intention i think. um. yeah yeah but then the word intention.

also means a lot of things like the word. love. that's true. um all right so the restaurant closed. the first time. when i was away and told to be. off communication. um. and then i by anthony yes. and then. um he told you not to talk to anybody he. told me not to like open email or look. at my phone or whatever. um and so when i.

came back. and. had to get it reopen which seemed like. an unbelievably difficult. task and i was kind of shocked that i. was able to pull it off. um you know i worked incredibly hard to. get it reopened. and. you know. because that placement. meant everything to me and so i just. like i just had to get it reopened are. you surrounded by people that were just. angry at you. at that time not well.

just the staff and all that yeah but. most of them came back a lot of them. came back i think what was so. unbelievably painful about that whole. time. um was like not being able to tell. anybody what was really going on and in. a sense not really knowing what was. going on myself but not. being able to like having to pretend all. the time was just. like. so you didn't really tell anybody about. uh anthony about him and what was really. going on in part because i didn't really.

understand what was going on yeah so. what i did was i raised money to reopen. the restaurant and i think i raised. something like. eight. maybe like 900 grand. and probably 90 of that went to reopen. the restaurant. um and i even made two um. sales tax payments. right before we disappeared. so it just sort of logically seemed. like so i didn't it's not like. all of this money was taken and then he.

and i ran off together with a whole. bunch of money. it was like i raised a bunch of money to. reopen the restaurant. you know because i wanted the restaurant. to exist again. and i wanted to you know i wanted to run. it i wanted to reopen the restaurant and. most of that money went to reopen the. restaurant. and then i disappeared. so. um. sort of the the timeline gets a bit. wonky so it's you know this impression.

was created that. we ran off with a whole bunch of money. and we didn't so you know if i wanted. to be a criminal and steal a bunch of. money. why would i have put it all back into. the restaurant and reopened it and then. also made. two ten thousand dollar sales tax. payments that i didn't you know. and i also repaid um. you know ten thousand dollars of another. loan i'm you know i was making. repayments and stuff and then boom i. disappear so is your mind.

going through a roller coaster here. so could there be multiple use there so. one one mind is like i love this. restaurant i'm going to reopen it i'm. this. um chef business owner. this person and then the other the other. is a human that's in this. uh complicated love affair. it wasn't a love affair okay. these are just words how can i okay what.

i don't want to uh lo i say that lightly. uh but also not. because love can make us do. dark things and you can say that's not. love but. okay. the thing that traps us the things that. pulls us in to a connection with another. human being. that's love even when it's abusive and. dark and toxic and all those kinds of. things. in some cases i think like if it's. voluntary but in other cases um somebody.

pulls you in. so it's not like you're drawn towards. them they they pull you in so just to. clarify even when it's not physical when. it's when the pull is with words. so it's emotional yeah. okay. where is your mind when you. raise. eight to nine hundred thousand dollars. to open the restaurant. working your ass off to open this thing. okay. making payments and then all of a sudden.

disappearing. what where was your mind. um if you had a lengthy conversation. with carl dice roth. in privacy what would you be telling him. as your therapist. i would. probably be asking him questions okay no. i don't get carl as part of this well. actually i have more questions for. andrew hueberman because you know i i've. had to investigate all of these things. myself like dissociation. um.

and even. there's a psychologist who believes that. he must have used neuro-linguistic. programming on me which is something. that keith rainery from the nexium cult. he was known to have used that with. people. um and i think neuro-linguistic. programming is kind of the same as. like a sort of like hypnotism. the only reason i know about what nlp is. is because in in what i do there's. something called natural language. processing artificial intelligence stuff. so it has the same.

uh like three letters right. uh what was the other thing that nlp. neuro-linguistic linguistic. yeah. anyway. all right well uh we we talked about. andrew. my friend andrew hubermann offline and. you definitely you should do a podcast. with him uh he's a he's a fascinating. he's such a. brilliant and kind human being uh. definitely worth talking to yeah i've. listened to a lot of. a lot of us and you said that. you listen to a lot of his instructions. on getting light.

in the morning or whatever during the. day it's very important for your. mental like there's all these kinds of. studies it's good for your for your mind. for your oh and also the other thing. that he got me to do is to try to delay. having coffee so instead of having. coffee right when you wake up i always. drink a lot of water first yeah but then. um instead of having coffee right away. if you wait an hour or an hour and a. half or two hours. then your body is able to. naturally do something that drinking. coffee too soon would sort of blunt that.

so then you'll be more tired in the. afternoon. so if you wait an hour and a half or two. hours or as long you know before you. have your first cup of coffee then you. won't be as tired in the afternoon. interesting um there's a lot of does it. work. yes one coffee addict talking to another. coffee addict yes it works and so i try. to get up and do other things first um. before i have coffee. um. so and the light thing also makes a lot.

of sense to me um. getting light early in the morning i. have a one of those bright light boxes. um and i would. love to have an apartment that had a. little deck or something where i could. just step outside because when you live. in an apartment you kind of have to like. go all the way outside and then there's. people everywhere and so to get that. early morning light isn't that hard to. do when you're are people good for you. or bad for you what does andrew humor. say about that i'm just kidding it's a. joke okay okay so moving back to where. was your mind that led you to disappear.

to uh did you guys go to vegas first and. then tennessee no i kind of refer to it. as like the road trip from hell. it's a very hunter s thompson way to. describe it. right you went back to the back country. maybe it was sort of hunters. thompson-esque except. without actual. drugs. um. that was one of the first questions my. father asked me was was it drugs and i. wished that i could have said yes yeah. because i didn't know how to explain. what had happened.

um. but. so really took me away. involuntarily except you know of course. he wasn't holding a gun to my head but. all along it was like a metaphorical gun. was there ever physical abuse. um. no. what would qualify as sexual abuse yes. um but physically no. a couple of times we would get into. slightly physical fights but he never um.

i mean he was. big and as. large and blubbery. as he was. he was he was also really strong so. sometimes he would like subdue me but. other than that no there wasn't physical. violence but a lot of people will say. that um. the. psychological violence is. um. i don't want to diminish physical. violence but some people say that the. psychological and emotional violence is.

more destructive. it's just that the physical violence is. easier to identify teacher identify and. and it seems kind of more. straightforward. whereas psychological you know and you. have a bruise on your face or you break. a bone and those things hopefully heal. in a visible way. but. psychological stuff. you know. you can't. easily identify or understand or others. can't easily identify it and then you. find yourself crying for no reason at a.

beautiful song at some point yes and. it's that that has to do something. happening in the depth. of your mind okay so he took you away. but where was the i mean where was your. mind that was doing both of those things. was able to be taken away. but also was pushing to the. the the. flourishing the reopening and the. flourishing the restaurant. well you know i wouldn't have reopened. the restaurant with and then knowing i. was gonna all of a sudden be taken away.

from it and it was gonna get closed. again you know it's like why why would i. do that why would anybody do that. um. and. one of the things that i tried to do. towards the end was i was trying to get. myself off the bank accounts because i. didn't want him to be able to get money. out of me. and so there was uh one time when i. tried to get one of the investors we. went to the bank together to put her on. as the signer and take me off. and because we didn't have the operating. agreement they wouldn't let us do it so. it was like this little snafu.

and um. so all of these things are. sort of the opposite of criminal intent. but that's a that's a legal thing what's. what's going on in your mind at this. time. i don't know i mean. well you always did you give yourself. a chance to just think. no and i think that's part of. one of the things that. might have. saved me or. anybody that's pulled into a cult one of. the things that they do is they keep you.

exhausted. overwhelmed confused and afraid. um. and so you don't have any time to think. so you're just kind of constantly. running and you're confused and then. things are happening it's funny there's. i have some quotes in my book draft. because i listen to a lot of podcasts i. don't know what the. logistics are of like crediting a quote. from a podcast in a book yeah but i have. a couple i think it was um. andrew huberman on. joe rogan said.

something about um. if a. animal if a human or animal i don't know. how he would know the human or animal is. stressed um. and i'm paraphrasing this horribly but. they're they're much more easily prone. to. um. be. not prone to but forced into delusional. thinking. um and so that quote resonated for me. because you know he kept me in this. incredibly stressed out afraid confused.

state and then whatever he's sort of. planting in my mind i'm gonna be that. much more likely to just kind of go. along with it. well we'll see how this whole journey. ends let's actually just step back a. little bit and just looking at the. employees at the restaurant and so on. do you have remorse for what happened. especially from the perspective of the. employees and the staff. yeah i mean hurting them was sort of the. last. thing that i would ever have wanted to. do. and. in part i mean there was.

financial harm um. but. i don't i don't know whether it's more. important or not but. you know it was. taking a place that. was very much like a family to them. um. and it was as if i destroyed it. and so i think that. because we were so much like a family it. was almost as if. like mom went off the deep end and. got together with some. cuckoo abusive guy and and sort of.

abandoned them and they didn't know what. was going on and what was happening and. so do you regret lying to them. i regret lying to anybody. in all of those circumstances but. i wasn't lying. you know. he made me think that you know. everything was going to be reversed and. okay and anybody that. money was borrowed from they would get. it back you know maybe tenfold and so it. was this weird situation of.

having like one foot in his reality. and. potentially believing the things he was. saying or. even over time. wanting to believe them more and more. because the alternative was so. the alternative was worse the. alternative was like. was increasingly a bigger and bigger. nightmare so so there's this whole. situation where you're constantly giving. them money you're constantly borrowing. borrowing money well this idea that'll.

be repaid like. 100x fold right kind of like. so sort of like lying to somebody. because you're planning their surprise. party you think like well i'm lying to. somebody but um but it's because. there's a good reason. yeah you know it's sort of that's not a. good example but. but you could have. not made it a surprise party and be like. pull them in onto the planning of the. party. and be honest about. like everything that's happening not in.

a negative way but like. getting in on the fact that okay i just. need to. give money to this guy. but. we'll get. he is. a super rich person of some kind and. he'll. um. repay. i mean i wish i well. because you're holding onto your time i. mean that's part of the torture is that. you're isolated. and. unable. unable to tell anybody. but you're not unable or he was telling.

you you're not allowed to say anything. to anybody i mean you're choosing not to. say anything. but it's because of the sort of the. weight of it. because it's embarrassing to sort of. is it embarrassing it's something i mean. what why do you not tell others. you know. what what is that what's what what's. happening to the mind where you don't. tell others. i don't know you're part of why the. story you know everything that happened. is hard to. summarize and talk about.

in any concise way is that. so much of it happens in this very slow. slow slow way and. um. you know people always use the whole. like frog and boiling water example. um so that by the time you realize. you're fucked it's too late. um. and it and it seems. hard to believe or understand to other. people because they see where you are or. where you ended up. and they think well how did you let that. happen and well i don't know i yeah.

would i have willingly destroyed my life. and hurt all the people i care about and. you know allowed my mother to get hurt. and. i wouldn't have ever ever willingly done. that so something else must have. happened and that's um that's the part. that's difficult to understand let me. ask you about another hearty question. yeah do you deserve most or all of the. blame. for the failure of the business. or are others at fault too. well the business didn't fail it was.

doing well. and so. it's closing closing it's like it was. destroyed. and who deserves the blame for that i'm. asking from your perspective when you. think about it in in the privacy in your. mind. are you angry. at anthony are you angry yourself. both i think that. um. in the privacy of my own mind and. to everybody listening.

um. it's. i feel responsible. i feel responsible in the same way that. if you. kind of did something if you were. driving you did something stupid and. caused an accident in which other people. died. you would feel i think horrifically. responsible. and you'd blame yourself because maybe. you looked away or checked your phone or. something. um. but it you didn't intend to kill those. people of course.

so for me it's like. i didn't intend to kill. you know sometimes i say like my own. child i don't know if that's offensive. to some people but it's like as if i. killed my own. child it was it was a business but it. was special. um. so i don't feel. guilt i feel responsibility. and then. um. you know i'm angry at him even though.

that anger is pointless. okay because this has come up. let's continue. uh with the hard questions. are they gonna get easier they're gonna. get it okay. most of them are easy. um this is this is fun we're having fun. you post it on instagram. the. ending no i'm gonna cite instagram like. it's shakespeare okay. the ending is disturbingly misleading. but still i'm very grateful for this.

coverage let's talk about the. documentary. in quotes documentary. i'm okay with the criticism and judgment. but would rather be based on what's true. and then you say a couple more sentences. and then you say leon who has his own. instagram account yes one lucky rescue. dog. says hello he loves you all even if you. call me a quote defective arrogant. sociopath. it's all okay. so the hard question.

do you think. you are in part a sociopath. no. would you know it if you were yes how. does this work so what have you learned. from reading this book i had all these. interesting thoughts about all these. sort of questions and thoughts about it. because um. the book i'm reading now that i'm only. about a third of the way through she. talks about um. some of the things in the brain. structure that are particular to. sociopaths. and so then it makes you think well what. if that could be. tweaked in some way like could you.

unsociopath a sociopath. is it nature or nurture i suppose is the. question i think it's both. um i think it's genetic and then it's. like genes that are turned on. by. things like a particularly violent. childhood or some sort of dysfunction so. i think somebody could have the gene. it's not turned on and then. um. the sociopaths. have the gene and it's turned on.

so so sociopath means that you're not. able to be empathetic or you're. generally not empathetic to the to the. suffering of others or to the emotions. of others i mean it's a hollowness so. it's like you don't have. um. just completely lacking the capacity i. mean it's tragic because they. wouldn't understand or feel love. but it's like a hollowness. um and. and then. something also about the wiring and i.

think also because of that hollowness. they're able to. incredibly quickly. look at others and identify their. insecurities and. buttons. and weak spots. so they're incredibly good at. manipulation is that because they're. just able to objectively observe the. situation. i wonder probably in part but there was. some other explanation related to the. brain structure that i read somewhere. that made sense to me and i won't like.

remember it because i don't usually. you're not andrew huberman who's no. reference like i'll listen to it. perfectly yeah every single line from. every book or paper he's ever read yes. right i don't remember things in that. way i try to usually remember the. conclusions right so like i might. remember that. he he might give a whole long. explanation about why it's good to do. this or to take this supplement. that's a bad habit i have sometimes i'll. order supplements and then by the time. they arrive i've forgotten why. i forgot why just take them all supposed.

to say thompson but the healthy version. i hope we get to talk about food because. i feel like. yes you have a brain that should be. fed only the best food. oh wow so we can talk about that later i. have a lot of philosophies about that. but certainly fluff is not. in the best what is best we'll. definitely talk about food. throughout what is best. that makes me think of conan. and i just talked to oliver stone who i. didn't realize wrote conan the barbarian.

uh do you know that in my head i i. pictured conan o'brien that's what. he's also saying. wait why i love him but i when you said. that i was like why did that make you. think of conan o'brien. yeah yeah i love him so much such a. brilliant human yeah. sociopathy sociopathy yeah so it's stuff. about the brain fine. but how do you know you're not a. sociopath would you know it.

am i a sociopath how would i know it. how you know. well having listened to a lot. why wouldn't i be able to be good at. faking it isn't that what well. there's the master and the cover of this. book i don't think we would be doing the. work don't worry you'd probably be. running for office or. you know a trader on wall street or. one of the things about sociopaths is. they um. they kind of need like this stimulation. of risk and.

danger. um. well. i need. okay sure. more than average i like um okay. but wall street. there's a fakeness. like i don't like the fakeness of what. the game of it. yeah that's why i left. i didn't i just. it was a strange environment okay. so you're not you're not a quote. defective arrogant sociopath what does. defective even mean i know well i think. that somebody had just called me that.

and i think that. you know it's easy for people to say. like don't read the comments but it's. hard. not to because then also you'd miss the. beautiful ones. or sometimes like you have to go on. there to to check a private message and. you just stuff. it's there people saying terrible things. so um. i try to. people say you know don't pay attention. to the comments it's hard not to but i. try to. even with the documentary you try to.

still kind of. see. to look. to look for the for the good ones for. the kind ones for the support there were. overwhelming kind comments and so that. that. helped and felt a lot better but. sometimes um. sometimes the. the negative comments. are based on you know they're based on. false information so if somebody unders. if somebody knew everything that. happened. and then wanted to judge me or say. things like that's.

somehow. at least that's all right but. um so you think people saying these. things based on. um. things that are totally false it's just. it's hard it's it's hard to. just let that go um. yeah but i know that people also say. things. you know for their own. personal. reasons i had a fascinating exchange. with somebody who direct messaged me. and called me trash.

um you responded i responded because it. was i. no it was amazing so okay i would do. this. wow it's sort of like a. i might be procrastinating or but. i would scroll through. because the private messages were. overwhelming and there's still just this. massive backlog that i'll never probably. get to read but the one that called you. trash as a pickup as an opener you're. like. this is interesting i just was in a mood. yeah and so.

i responded. and i wish i hadn't deleted it because i. i sort of deleted a bunch and then i was. like oh why did i delete that one. because i was curious what exactly i. said to him but i responded to him um in. a nice way. and then he responded back and then it. started this whole back and forth. conversation. um so he was kind quickly or no yes and. then also like wanted to get to know me. and lives in pennsylvania and was like. i'll come to you i'm like. do you realize if we you know if somehow.

this just turned into like that would be. our how did you meet story well he. called me trash. online that's pretty good yeah he ended. up having such an insightful. comment. i just found it interesting and i think. he at first he said i never imagined. you'd reply which is you know it's like. part of the whole thing with social. media although this guy wasn't anonymous. um. was not anonymous no he had a i think he. had a private account but it's like his. name and his face was there. and people forget that you're a human. being when they message you exactly.

folks when you message me i'm a human. being. so. i told him that that was you know like. that that i was hurtful yeah and um and. i guess i wanted to understand more why. he said it and. it was surprisingly insightful but he. said something about again i wish i. hadn't deleted it that. he. um. he was like i guess i was just. angry because. um. like that guy. he said something like i guess i was.

just angry because that guy got you and. i would have you know so it made me. think of the whole like sort of. in-cell jealousy. thing that can be very terrifying if. you're. female is that like if you reject a guy. they might turn around and be. violent or angry at you yeah and um. so his. well to be fair there's a dormant anger. in probably all of us. i believe there's a capacity for cruelty.

and anger and destruction all of us and. the whole struggle of life is. to uh emphasize the good stuff. yeah yeah so it's not just an insult. thing it's true for men and women both. capable of cruelty that's that is very. true but this one guy so and then you. put on my therapist hat because we we. started what do we start with. um. i already forgot but the the oh back to.

sociopath no. no just. um you know maybe it's not the best idea. to answer comments that start with your. trash i don't do it all the time it just. i happened upon that one and i was just. in a certain mood i was just in a. certain mood and let's let's and i like. further offline sort of yeah um. discuss this mood that you're in because. it might get you in trouble at some. point in your future. okay. uh.

um can we just jump back speaking of um. guys that say as an opening to your. trash how did you and. anthony strange's meet can we jump. around and tell some of the details here. because that i believe the document. doesn't cover that that well it's not. clear there's some twitter interactions. and you've kind of assumed. um. by the way i do think you need some. social media coaching on this because i. think. you know. um i you know i have i have some uh.

uh books you need to read i think. uh some manuals on how to use twitter. properly but anyway the that apparently. you kind of thought that this person uh. who turned out to be. what was his name he called himself. shane fox but. he turned out to be anthony strange's. that he was somehow friends with al. baldwin because of their friendly. interaction on twitter. and so you started interacting with him. and then there was. how did that escalate quickly to um.

it escalated slowly. and i think um. i'm sure it was intentional because had. i met him right away i would have. probably thought like oh. he's not what i thought he was and no. thanks. um. but. it was a long time it was many weeks of. back and forth conversation. um digitally one way or another so it. was you know via twitter and then. via direct message and then.

we both played words with friends back. then and we would message in words with. friends and then eventually you know we. exchanged phone numbers how does word. with friends work what's that. i know that's a popular. game is that scrabble it's like scrabble. and you're playing other people and then. there's like a chat function. yeah and you can chat with them right so. you were. this intellectually stimulating game and. you were what like flirting and that. kind of stuff. like. witty banter.

yes. aka flirting. yes and but but um. all of that lasted a really long time. and and he would give me like little. tiny bits and pieces of information. about himself. that made him seem kind of mysterious. this is a dark mysterious man who was a. navy seal. strong. yeah and he would always imply things. versus say them outright so you're kind. of always guessing and filling things up. clint eastwood type of character he's.

not going to say it outright he's right. he's a clint eastwood type of character. he's not going to say it outright right. he's just going to act badass yeah okay. all right. um and plus intellectual. because the word words with words with. friends is that that's the thing by the. way so what is it i think it still. exists yeah but i i i. um i feel like if i started playing it. again i would i'd get a little addicted. and yeah um but stick to the coffee one. of the interesting things is that. i used to think that he like used an app.

to look up things but then he would do. it in front of me. he could like look at he was really good. at it and he could look at the board and. just like. come up with you know a hundred point. word that i'd never even heard of. so i think he had a little bit of that. something going on in his brain that was. like. um i don't know a little. rain manish or something in the way that. he was able to. recall i think his recall is incredibly.

it's important if you if you lie a lot. if you lie a lot yeah to have good. recall okay so uh when uh it's okay so. how did it escalate slowly from. with friends to meeting in real life. like what you know what i mean what okay. i know i know it's not a love affair. that said. um. when did you kind of get hooked. by the. oh i wonder you know.

like fall in love just a slow. yeah what did you fall in love it was a. slow. process. and i think um he found me at a time. when there was sort of a perfect storm. of the right conditions for me to to. fall into. um. whatever i fell into with him. um because that was. heartbroken for the first time in my. life. where was the heartbreak coming from i. had split with my boyfriend. of four years. um. and that broke out.

yeah i mean it was i knew it was a. relationship that i knew. would end. even when i got into it in the first. place um because. he's 15 years younger than me. and surely that can't be the only. character the only reason it wouldn't. work. i need to also give you a book on love. what's it called i i'm i'm gonna write. it i don't know okay just because. there's nothing called a joke. didn't bring okay. there's no book on twitter and there's.

no book that i love. a lot of people keep trying to write. love that i really like that i think you. might like but um. like love languages i still have to read. that no it's called on love. all right i can't wait but i'm gonna. read the cliff notes bye it's short by. this guy named alan de botton. i don't trust him already no it's funny. and it's beautiful and shocking that he. wrote it when he was very young. um and i first heard him on a krista.

tippett podcast. um. that's how i end up reading a lot of. books is like you hear somebody in a. podcast. um. so. so. you were heartbroken you knew it was. going to work i knew it was going to. work because the age difference. that's just because the age difference. also you know i just knew that. eventually he'd want to move on and. probably he'd find somebody. younger and or. was young enough that he still needed to. go have a bunch of other experiences.

and um. you know probably wanted a family or. whatnot eventually so he was. 21 and i was 34. when we first met. um. but and but then we ended up living. together for four years and it was the. most. drama-free. like there's no drama. and i had just come off. my prior relationship was matthew kenny. which was very um. dark in many ways and full of all kinds.

of. yeah and i i just couldn't couldn't. handle that so can i ask you a personal. question yes. between us and. be two best friends. um is there a part of you that's. attracted to the drama. and the chaos. now. looking back. i feel like that happens a lot and. maybe there was at some point but i. don't think so because.

you know part what made that. relationship work. um. with his name was tobin. was. that there was no drama. not at all and i don't think i could. have handled it and i feel that way now. too like i just couldn't i can't like. fighting or any kind of like. like people being passive aggressive i. can't i can't handle that. um. so you you've had enough storms now you. want the calm. yes yeah um so you knew it knew it.

wasn't work i knew it wasn't gonna be. forever well that that could be just. uh insecurity and cynicism but fair. enough and then the heart was broken. yes and now the heart was broken. and fragile. and um. there to be manipulated in some sense. yes and there's another. person that i heard that i quoted my. book saying that when you're heartbroken.

you're you can't rely on your instincts. somehow your instincts are compromised. when you're heartbroken um. and maybe i'm just like looking for. excuses. i don't know why this happened but. but i was heartbroken and then um. i like to see people in their heart. broken because it's like. um. shows how much they really loved. somebody. you know. yeah it's it's it's sad but like. sometimes love doesn't reveal itself.

as richly. when you're in it versus when you lose. it. right that's probably true. anyway so your judgment wasn't good. great so now you're. so you're lonely and you're super busy. running the restaurant but when you get. home you're lonely. or like in between. yeah and i was kind of overwhelmed and. um. but i'm sure you were getting a lot of. really positive attention from other. guys to.

while new york. or too busy well no because because it. was a restaurant there was constantly. you're like constantly meeting people. um and really interesting people and. new york is full of. a lot of. um. interesting people. and you're you know attractive. yes so you why are you connected to some. uh. mysterious distant man from somewhere. else playing over words was because well.

i think now looking back i think it's. because i felt like he understood me. and um. you know what was that feeling from. coming from you think like what. why did you why does one feel that. you're understood. one thing that made me. extra easy to target is that i'd written. a lot of very personal blogs. and things so. in addition to him asking me questions. and me. probably just being insanely open and. answering whatever he asked me i'd also.

written and posted a bunch of personal. blogs some of them i've. reposted on my new website and then some. of them i haven't but. in one of them i go into detail about. my frustrations. um professionally in growing the. business. and. having read that. and being a very smart person. he would have known kind of precisely. what to say. to get me. um to get me drawn in.

so i think by waiting so long before we. met in person he'd already. he'd already gotten me hooked in a way. that was gonna then. make it possible for me to. you know see him and even though he. doesn't look like i thought he did i'll. make excuses for it or. um i mean it's a dangerous thing about. um when people and i'm not saying i fell. in love with him in this way that i feel. like there's another explanation for the. what felt like. love. um.

but. when people fall in love quickly there's. like danger that. um. because. that's what happens first that the more. you learn about them you'll sort of. rationalize away. things that might be red flags or things. that you don't like. so. i think um. i think it's. safer to. fall in love in a. when you get to know somebody not in the. context of. dating them like.

like jim and pam on the office. did you watch the office yeah because. yeah of course i watch the office. british office is better. strong words but yes um but yes so. well uh yeah fine. true it might be but i also romantic. yeah i like the romantic you could fall. for you yeah it's fine you but just i. think the better lesson is yes. that's one thing to say but the other is. like when you see the red flags. notice them be a little better about.

noticing them. but what if even amidst the passion what. if like a brilliant woman. kind of threw herself in your path right. she she having because talking on a. podcast is a little bit like having a. blog where you over share because people. learn everything about you what you like. what you what what you don't like what. your wants and dreams and you know so. some woman like could. pretend to run like throw herself in. your path seemingly accidentally. and then you meet and she has a russian.

accent. and probably works for fsb. no but whatever she is who she is and. then um. and then she sort of slides into the. conversation like a a quote from the. idiot right yep yeah yeah yeah and. you're like. boom. yep right and then but then but but. she's not who she that's all up pretend. and so you very quickly could fall in. love with her. and she's. gonna turn out to like. enjoy the game of destroying your life.

yep. uh you know that or it's the love of my. life it could be but not if she did all. those things intentionally but you you. don't really know. but you have to then pay attention to. that's that's the dark aspect here you. mentioned blog. like i love i love when people have like. stuff about themselves online because. you get to really learn i mean i'm a fan. of podcasts i'm a fan of people it's i. love learning about them the personal. stuff and so on. um hopefully for.

for good reasons so the person you can. people you connect with. the good ones are the ones that are. going to be very sort of empathetic. and the bad ones are the ones that are. going to be fake empathetic. like they're going to learn everything. about you and use you to manipulate you. as opposed to learn everything about you. to fall deeper in love with you as a. friend or as a romantic partner or like. genuine curiosity yeah genuine curiosity. like there's something you're drawing. like imagine your dog leon had a blog.

after. oh yeah he does not yeah that's true he. kind of does yeah. as. when you met him right then you'd be. like what is this what what is there. that's pulling me towards this creature. this this this entity like what is there. and it'd be fascinating to learn more. and then you fall in love with the the. details not just with this some kind of. ethereal thing yeah you don't know yeah. you have to pay attention to the red. flags you have to yeah i think one of. them actually is is somebody who doesn't.

have that kind of i mean plenty of. people are private and they don't put. stuff out about themselves online for. all kinds of very valid reasons but. um. somebody who does share a lot about. themselves personally is. um. maybe there's examples but it's probably. not a sociopath if they're sharing all. kinds of sure sure but i mean on the. other side um. when you meet people yeah i still like. the falling in love. because the red flags whether you see.

them early or later it doesn't matter. i'd rather see the red flags right away. i go in hard intensely like. uh and to clarify by going hard i mean. like. you know um. no small talk. just get to know a person get to know. quickly. get to know the person challenge travel. with them travel with them is a really. powerful one road trip from hell or not. go on a road trip and find out if it's a. road trip from hell yeah.

but you might so if there was somebody i. was it was also a male perspective. destructive relationship with where we. had already fallen in love and then. went for the first trip yep um in a. situation where we were like had to. borrow. uh i guess he was sharing he was still. sharing his car with his ex-wife so we. had to go to the garage to pick up the. car to go on his little trip and um so. you're literally baggage the egg. yes. so. but but um.

something happened where the the garage. attendant. was like wanted more identification and. it was a pain in the ass and anyway this. guy was so unbelievably rude to. the garage attendant like just nasty. and i was. completely shocked and disturbed and we. got in the car for this long car ride. and i i was like not saying anything and. really shocked. and then he noticed that and was very.

concerned and i. explained you know like i just i never. i would never treat somebody that way. and then he. pretended. to get incredibly upset and to feel. horrible and remorseful about it and. it was like all we talked about for the. next few hours and then i kind of. thought like well okay you know i can. get over that and then the relationship. continued and it was a dark and. destructive one whereas. you know had i seen him behave that way.

before we were in a relationship. i would have known to back away. okay but at my the lesson you could. still walk away. you could still walk away but and no you. can't well. i could have walked away at any point. with i call him mr fox because it's sort. of de-personalizes him um. but. i could have walked away from him at any. point in time but that's the whole. that's kind of the whole point of what.

they do and the whole reason why people. don't understand it. um i mean it's it's this. it's like being in a cult of one. so. the people who've been in cults and. gotten out we understand each other very. well. um because the same. psychology was used. the same psychological tactics were used. on us. and then we experienced the same thing. on the other side of it which is it's. hard for us to understand and it's hard. for other people to understand and. everybody's saying that would never.

happen to me or they're saying i don't. get it because you're smart how could. you let that happen why didn't you leave. why didn't you walk away. and. on the other side of it we don't have. the answers or it takes a really long. time of self-reflection and reading and. investigation to try and figure out. how it is that it happened and why. didn't we walk away. um no it's definitely i mean it's. definitely hard at every level. and. i i just think that. even for more subtle for sort of not.

outrageously toxic relationships but. like normal toxic not normal like a. little bit toxic there are some people. that kind of thrive on conflict yeah but. you could just still just be self-aware. like i think you've talked about give. yourself time to think about the red. flags. and. like i pride myself on being able to. walk away you have to you have to think. like uh. is this. is this the kind of thing i can live.

with. in friendship and business partners and. um. and because the little things that. bother you turn out to be big things. down the line. so yeah so it could be. less romantic but i feel like. getting to know somebody. slowly over time is yeah it's a smarter. thing it's safer fuck it though. but that's again my you know. russian. slash ukrainian.

male perspective anyway. so. meeting mr fox. anthony that's a chapter title in my. book meeting mr fox meeting mr fox so. you're working. uh on a book about this. i'm almost done. it's taken a really long time can you. define it almost done. because i you know i've said that. it's like it's when people say like um. you know they're leaving like i'm i'm.

almost in the car. right and they they actually not really. they're not really they haven't even. started showering yet or something so. yeah i do i think i probably need some. like therapists to work with me on this. um are you usually late to things. no. okay. i'm usually. oh i sent you a text message because i. was early when i got here yeah. and i said that i'm um um. because of. i think i said my crippling fear of.

being late. i'm like always early. so i'm loitering outside like a weirdo. but glad to come in. if it's not too early. the crippling fear of being late makes. me chronically early and today is no. exception. yeah it's interesting i got here before. i before i rang the bell yep i was. outside for a little while like just. killing time going i'm way too early. but it's really hot out. oh that's true yeah cause i'll yeah i'll.

i always air like i was very early to. the airport and then i had all this time. to kill but that's fine with me because. that's actually time i appreciate. because i can. um. write things or you know i worked on my. book draft on the on the airplane. um. mostly editing. um which it needs a lot because it's. really long it's in word count so all. the things are already completed and. you're just editing down now i wish. it's it's in five parts and i've written. one through four.

and five part five is like. the chapters are all there but some of. them are messy some of them are some of. them are just like a few paragraphs some. of them are just notes. some of them are done. so. i am kind of almost like five parts and. part five is not quite finished um. but i've been editing along the way. so so this is gonna come out in 2023 i. think you mentioned. so it won't come off for a bit or we'll.

figure it out. uh what have you learned about yourself. from putting some of these things down. on paper. what's like the darkest thing you've. realized about yourself. from writing the darkest. um well. one of the things that was fascinating. is reading through all of our the. correspondence between him and me that i. was able to find because he deleted all. our emails but he he didn't i think he. thought he deleted all of our g chats. but he didn't. well so he had access to your email yes.

deleted on that side too and he yeah he. had access to my email most of the time. and then at the end was also emailing. people as me which was. incredibly mortifying to come home and. then get back into my old email and find. that and i think um he was also texting. people as me and those i'll never know. unless somebody. brings it to my attention because after. a certain date in 2015 he had my phone. and he had exclusive access to my phone.

and email so i wasn't looking at it. until. i got out until after we were arrested. um and i was out on bail on my sister's. and it took me a long time to get back. into my gmail because i had to verify. who i am and. um and i never got my phone back so i. don't know what he texted to other. people as me after that time but. anyway i was able to recover. um. a lot of our g chats.

which we. use that'll i don't know why people. don't use it anymore but it used to be a. thing yeah so it was like if you work. with people and you use gmail it's a. really easy way to just message back. it's a chat client within uh google but. i think google shut it down already. right now. i think it's still there okay. and nobody nobody i used to talk to. people on there and nobody talked to me. anymore. and so i i i'd rather you. thank you. i i just i don't. yeah. people don't love google social products.

for some reason the social network they. tried several times google plus. it just dies out something about it it's. like when microsoft tries to do stuff it. just doesn't feel right. anyway it is it is very lonely. in that google chat window it makes. total sense though anyway so that was. still there so you're reading through. them so finding you know being able to. go back and read and then i kept finding. like. more layers of stuff. um and including a journal that i didn't.

find the the d.a the prosecutor found. written by me my journal that i thought. he'd thrown away i didn't know it. existed so. um. somehow he still had it and they found. my my journal. which was for the year. 2014. and the very beginning of 2015. um this is after you got. this is in the middle of it it was in. the middle of it yeah so reading that. was fascinating. um yeah what what's some interesting.

things there. what was it. was your mind completely detached. it was weird because. no like were you concerned were you in. love were you afraid i was not in love i. was afraid i definitely write repeatedly. in there that i'm afraid of him i also. rep write repeatedly things like i don't. know what's going on like please let. this be over. please let this be over please let this. be over and then in a sort of.

if i try to remove myself and look at it. as if i was a different person. it's sort of heartbreaking because i was. trying so hard to be positive. and um. and that didn't work out you know trying. to be positive. so. but. when i. it turned up later in the process and um. my lawyer at the time. called or something and said um you know. the d.a has your.

or the prosecutor that they have your. journal. i haven't read it yet but as soon as i. get a pdf copy i'll send it to you so. that was sort of weird to think that. everybody's reading my journal which you. know you don't write it thinking people. are going to unless you're like a. historical person and then later on you. think people are going to. print from it. but you're not nobody's writing it's. just a matter i can just imagine like. like a 14 year old thinking they're. going to be a historical person right. right well no i mean like you know. presidents who keep journals and then.

they're later on sure sure yeah so you. write it you don't think everybody. anybody's gonna read it and so that was. a weird feeling and then also just not. knowing. having you know not remembering what i. wrote. um. so i think it was the next day i got she. sent me a pdf copy of it and i read it. really quickly because i could read my. own it was a pdf so it was like xeroxes. of the pages it was in my own. handwriting which i could read really. fast because even though it's messy i i. wrote it so i could read it really fast.

and i read the whole thing and was. crying because i thought okay. finally. like. surely nobody could read this and think. that i intended to commit crimes. and so i thought like i thought that. journal was just. gonna fully exonerate me and they would. like you know if not drop the charges. like it would just be like okay well you. know some bad things happened you're. responsible you know. here's probation. but it didn't seem to make any. difference which was strange.

um but anyway so the journal. and then also. finding all of the correspondence. between not all of the correspondence. between him and me but the g chat. correspondence between him and me. um. to me. so you know all of that in its entire. like i wish that everything could have. been. kind of. put out there as evidence like the more. they turned up the better for me because. i wanted them to see everything. and. are just so many examples in the.

correspondence between him and me where. he's you know threatening me and. um you know. lying to me and telling me that if i. don't do what he says my whole life will. be destroyed and i'll lose everything i. ever cared about all kinds of things. like that but. what was. what i still don't quite understand. and what uh one of my lawyers said why. all of that wasn't as useful as i. thought it might be is because. so much of that correspondence i'm. um. like sarcastically angrily i'm yelling.

at him i'm mad at him i'm like fuck you. i'm making fun of him i call him names. um. i'll say to him like you're lying why. should i believe you you told me you'd. pay me back before but you didn't. so it seems like it doesn't. it seems like it doesn't make sense like. how is it that if i say to him you're. lying you're a liar. that i still but so then what would. happen is i'm reading those that. correspondence. and then it stops for a while maybe.

because i was with him in person yeah um. and then i'll look at like my timeline. of things and i'll see like oh i sent. him a wire for 80 000 like. yeah how do you explain your ability to. still. uh joke around and. also to be. like mean to him in a joking way like. you know couples can do that. i guess like. i mean there's r there's like cruel ways. of doing that and then there's like. humorous ways just like you're talking. shit whatever.

uh you're able to do that still and yet. you're sending over. the money and are afraid like how can. you be those two things. like as opposed to completely shutting. down. well. i don't know i mean these are all. interesting questions that i have as. well like how is it that i was. functional yeah. and yet also doing these things and so. the year that we were gone is like a. different. level because i no longer was running.

the business but. the thing about dissociation is that. you're functioning but like your. feelings and your thinking are detached. in some way so that like you're. functioning and people wouldn't. look at you and go that person's. dissociating because you're functioning. you seem normal but somehow in your head. there's you're like. disconnecting your feelings and you're. thinking. so so you're still able to be like like. the the the game of social interaction. like being witty and so on all that kind.

of stuff you still for me i think it's. like a coping mechanism too because all. like if i went i haven't been to a. funeral a long time but if i went i'd. probably like find. absurd thing you know. or. i'll tend to like either make jokes or. want to make jokes at really. inappropriate times even in tragic times. because it's almost like a. like a defense. mechanism i think you said uh you told. me you like dark humor yeah. i i.

my next-door neighbor is michael malus. he's a anarchist i have one of his books. the hero deer reader dear reader yeah. and he loves he he embodies dark humor. trolling and dark humor and and is. underneath it the sweetest human being. because he's writing a book now the. white pill that's really focused on. stalin and the holomore there's. basically atrocities throughout the 20th. century and. i think he needs the dark humor to.

release the valve. i think there's something about. incredibly good. the most offensive comedians. tend to have. the kindest hearts i think this is my. theory people like. ricky gervais who you know who goes out. and insults people and makes jokes that. people find horribly offensive and crude. and. um. and. and yet. you know is a huge animal rights guy and. and appears to be an incredibly sweet.

and kind. person and sensitive and. you know howard stern people who are. like incredibly crude. very often are. in my experience to the extent that i've. gotten. either to know people personally observe. them. learn about them in other ways but the. almost like the the more crude and. offensive the. the comedian or the person they they. tend to have the kindest. like yeah i don't know if it's a.

universal rule but yeah i see what you. mean and he lost me with howard stern i. he seems like not a good person oh no. he's such a good person underneath it oh. yeah such a good person he's just said. so much. so i'm friends with rogan he says so. many ignorant things about rogan but i. suppose that's um. so i haven't heard i haven't i haven't. listened to howard stern in a long time. and i also think that people who say. bad things about rogan. don't listen to his podcast right. because if i've i've listened to his. podcast and like people think that.

i think people would assume that i don't. like him because. or. the whole like vegan thing and he's all. about meat and they would think that i. would think. no. i mean because i've listened to enough. of his podcast i've i've heard the one. where he talked about why he hunts. and um. whereas if i if i only knew him via his. instagram i might think he's an asshole. yeah but having listened to all of his. uh not all i don't listen to all of them.

there's a ton of them um but having. listened to a lot of his podcasts enough. to know that. um. you know he's an extremely kind person. with all the best intentions. and i think that a lot of that judgment. comes from people who are just seeing. little clips yeah because it's probably. easy to take little clips from him that. sound yeah the lesson there is just not. make judgments on on people without. getting to know them especially and you. have no excuse when the content is out. there like don't be lazy yeah. i try that's i'm yeah i'm very careful.

when. um. you know a lot of these cases. um you know like the the dep herd thing. or oh uh johnny depp and elizabeth. holmes and anything like. controversial and sometimes that makes. me. i can't think of an example but very. often um. like when somebody criticizes something. or something becomes controversial. that's what gets me to want to. understand it better so then i'll go. like read the book that everybody's mad. about yeah it's hard to know what's true.

though so i i try i try to have humility. and always assume i don't really know. the full story and keep pulling at the. strength keep learning more and more but. even then like. the more you learn the more you realize. things are. complex. uh what do you think about as a small. tangent. um johnny depp amber heard trials going. on it's a quick pause it's gonna resume. next week so again this is one of those. situations where. you know i have very limited information.

because i'm also not sitting there. watching the trial yeah have you watched. any of it uh little bits of it and i. it's like i know that if i go there and. then i'm gonna want to watch it all yeah. it's good i know i really it's raw human. relationships it is most toxic at its. most. deep also because there's you can tell. there's love probably still there's love. which is the interesting thing they. probably still love each other even. though they hate each other. um and like there's a lot of lying going. on.

it looks like it's amber heard lying to. to my. foolish eyes it seems like she's lying. non-stop but. you know. i want to know the full story. and we'll never get to know it but you. see this raw. like postmortem on a relationship on a. love affair that was clearly passionate. there was clearly something deep of a. connection there and it just. that's the sad thing about love it can. destroy you as much as it can uplift you. so there that would be also used to.

destroy people yeah to manipulate and. all that kind of stuff yeah right so. people who. um feel that strongly. are i think particularly vulnerable um. yeah it's. it's hard to talk about because. i've dipped into. like a podcast or something where other. people are we're discussing bad vegan in. like a pop culture way. and they're analyzing it and it's so. annoying to listen to because i'm like. oh my god that's totally wrong that's.

totally wrong well if they only knew. this well i have nope that's wrong so it. you know yeah listening to other people. analyzing um. my situation or my psychology when they. don't have all the information has been. really frustrating. the difference i did. there's a difference because the world. doesn't know much about you except for. the netflix documentary right there's a. lot more information about both johnny. depp and amber heard and the trial is. revealing the real people this is so. interesting but i haven't watched at all.

okay but but there's a difference. between a documentary and like a raw. human being exactly the real trial you. can see the body language. the. it's so interesting that i think you. could tell the difference between a. person. who is full of shit and not. no. i'm not sure. yeah it's another i'm gonna i can't. remember and sorry so i keep. interrupting you but on top of this. they're actors too which is very. annoying because right exactly because.

like i don't know if they're putting it. but sure as hell looks like amber heard. is putting on. um. like a soap opera act soap opera meaning. like really bad acting. and lies but i would say all of these. things are really hard. people would say about me i don't look. like a victim and. i don't mind you interrupting me because. andrew hueberman said that's that means. you're interested in the conversation. you said it was a good thing. so you don't have to apologize i think. interrupting me nobody keeps coming up.

but i keep thinking of these that that's. one of the things that andrew told me. that i'm like i are you sure because it. just doesn't seem like an asshole thing. to do i don't i guess it depends on the. context if we're in a business meeting. and and somebody you know talks over you. to kind of make their point heard but if. it's a one-on-one situation then it's. not. i could argue anyway forever but so a. long time ago i listened to there was a. audio call um an audio that was released. of a. taped argument between johnny depp and. amber heard.

um and i don't remember why. like which one of them had taped it and. if they knew it was being taped but it. was like an hour and a half and i. listened to it almost like you would. listen to a podcast where i was doing. other things like cleaning my apartment. and i was fascinated listening to it to. a fight so. and it's interesting too because it's. just the audio not so you're not looking. at their body language. um which can be completely misleading. and there was another podcast where they. talked about how judges make worse. decisions on whether or not somebody. deserves you know parole or to be.

released on bail when they see the. person. in person versus if they're just. looking at the information on paper. so i think body language and those kinds. of things can be can actually be. misleading. um or we think that like by looking. somebody in the eye will know if they're. lying or not but the skilled liars are. able to. um bypass that or they. because. i'm jumping all over the place but one. of the things about sociopaths is.

they're not going to have the same tell. so like if i was lying somebody would. know because. i'm like stressed out mortified i'm. probably doing all the things that we do. when we lie because it's stressful for. me whereas they don't. have those things so i think that. you know they could for example i think. that they could pass a lie detector test. they also don't have like a startle. response. so. the activity in their brain like if you. and i watched something. graphic and tragic on tv or watched. something happen like things would.

happen in our brains that don't happen. in the brains of sociopaths so they. don't react to things in the same way. that. that we do again but that makes sense. keep assuming i'm not associated i. didn't say i'm not a sociopath this. assumption you keep making it's very. interesting. then why did i murder all those people. let's get back to the um. what were we talking about johnny depp. and amber heart so the audio that i. heard made me. without knowing anything else made me. very inclined to be. team johnny dapp.

yeah based on that based just based on. that audio yeah well that's how the. people are feeling about this whole. interaction by the way i do think it's a. very healthy thing to do in a. relationship is to record each other for. months at a time. uh every time you fight that just seems. like a very um sarcasm i don't i don't. understand how that because they both. recorded each other. it it just it's okay i suppose you could. look back at all human relations and be. like this was ridiculous what was i. doing. but when you're in it you don't.

right i wondered that too like who made. the recording and why and. um. and did they both know about it that it. was being recorded. sometimes they did sometimes they didn't. uh all i know is just the poetry. of johnny depp's speaking and. sort of um. movement about the whole thing it's. interesting it makes you wonder what's. real maybe this is whole. maybe maybe they're both in love and.

this is like a a troll that they played. on the world i don't know. it makes me wonder what's real at all. like i. because there you have to remember their. actors too. yeah i don't think he would have filed. the lawsuit if not i mean i'm joking no. i know but but no i mean my point is um. yes yeah. if somebody was trying to make the. argument that like he's the abuser. and that he's lying and he's full of.

shit it sort of doesn't make sense that. he would have. filed a lawsuit unless he's trying to. have this all. come out in the open. because he believes he's in the right. you know again i don't i have no idea i. agree with you i agree with you. as a fan of. love and human nature i appreciate the. fact that they went through this i know. it's probably extremely painful. but. it's it's fascinating to watch. human relationships be presented in such. raw way and it made me realize how rare.

it is to get a glimpse like that. yeah and i think one of the reasons i. like that book confessions of a. sociopath also is. it's you know. female who's writing it and i think. um statistically men are more likely to. be sociopaths. maybe not i mean these are all. things where. a lot of times. there exist. statistics that. would be inherently hard to get. so who knows but.

i think that people tend to think of. sociopaths more as men. and then which probably gives female. sociopaths the advantage and that people. are less likely to. um. like the elizabeth homes like people who. are really manipulative and really good. at it um. and and. part of. how they're able to succeed is that. people don't understand their motives or. people will assume that. people behave rationally even if.

rationally means. it's like anthony strange's. you know it would have made more sense. if he had gotten all this money out of. me. and you know put it in an overseas. account and then ditched me and got on a. plane to mexico like everybody would. understand that more. whereas. you know the way. things happened and he dragged me around. the country and like what were we doing. in tennessee and then. why didn't like nothing really makes any. sense.

but. and also all the things that he did. to me and had me do it was as if. all of those things together only make. sense if his primary goal. was to maximally destroy me and also. make it. like have me burn all my bridges and. make it so i'll never recover. and when you read a book like that you. understand that that's. that's what he wanted like that's his. life. it's like a game like what what do you.

think it's about power and it's a game. do you think he understood the long-term. goals he has or was it the short-term. game of it that he enjoyed the ability. to destroy you well yeah it was the. short-term. game of it because control another human. yeah and also i think for him like. their motivations are just different so. you know he spent a year incarcerated. because he never got out on bail but. then he got out. um.

he's out of prison now he got out before. i went in to serve my time which was. um particularly. you know. like psychologically i had to try really. hard not to be infuriated and. um. but anyway. so i think for him. you know the consequence of spending. time in jail sort of like an. inconvenience. you know it's like life is a game. and so he wouldn't feel.

if you're not capable of being. emotionally hurt. then. you're. you know you have immense power because. you can go around and do things. and people can't hurt you it's like a. superpower and he did this for people. who are not familiar i guess he did this. to other women. yes. yes i think it was in the documentary. that. his i guess ex-wife.

from somewhere else florida florida of. course florida. sorry. strong. strong words well it's just like when. there's the weirdest story about you. know people eating. tide pods and then doing crazy it's like. it's always in it's always in florida so. i feel like whenever crazy so to me it. makes sense that he would have spent. time in florida before and that's where. crazy in a good way. and i mean that on an insult on him i. also like she's an amazing person yes so. it's it's like it's him that i'm.

making the like. florida is. not that weird. yes he he manipulated her as well lied. to her that kind of things. um well jumping around but one of the. things you said that was disturbingly. misleading is the ending of the. documentary and the the ending. has a phone call i think yeah of you and. anthony talking so high level let me ask. uh how many times have you talked.

with anthony since you got. out of prison and what did you talk. about and why is that. quote misleading that uh uh segment of. audio misleading. my issue with it also was that it was. deliberately misleading which was. what was particularly. um infuriating about it infuriating. about it um. and then also there was. it was like there were thing. one major thing that was incorrect that. i think. helped allow people to make an incorrect.

conclusion at the end was um. in the in the film it talks about i say. something about how my accountant made a. joke about if i married him he could. easily transfer me money without tax. consequences and then. the film has me saying something like. you know and then within 24 hours we. were married but that's like audio from. here and audio from here spliced. together so they made it seem. like they're like i married him because. it was like he could give me money and. that wasn't the case so you're.

part mastermind of some kind of scheme. that involved. money transfer and you got married and. that kind of right or if nothing else i. had like i was trying to get money. that's why i married him so which which. is absurd because again you know. new york is full of legitimate people. with loads of money if i really wanted. to marry somebody for money in new york. it wouldn't be that hard to do. but anyway it was like it was just a. deliberate. making it seem like my intention was you. know to marry him for his fictitious.

money. right um. okay so that's one and either way let's. go to that ending thing because because. we're on that sort of topic because. when you got out of prison. you know the what the film implies. is that. whatever there's a small aspect of your. mind that still wants to continue a. relationship with anthony yeah that's. not the case and. not just that but there's still.

flirtation and that kind of. a body collide. like. we got the the world. like at our fingertips we're playing. so i mean one of the exciting things. about being. like a couple that's fucking with the. world that's getting away with something. is that. there's all these powerful forces that. want to catch you. in a crime and you keep getting away. with it that's exciting.

uh in some. [Music]. world it could be although. in this case. right and also i always have to keep. reminding people like get away with what. because i lost everything and. all these people lost other you know. people i cared about lost a lot. my mother lost a lot. but i lost everything too yeah your um. your restaurant. and all my dream. yeah my reputation my stuff. my home.

you know. ending up with millions of dollars of. debt like it's not even like i lost it. all and then it's a clean slate it's. like i lost it all and now i have this. like giant. boulder of. or like this wobbly. unclear how to like yeah so when people. say. well sisyphus got a thing. away with something i'm always like got. away with what i know destroying my life. and ending up in debt because that's. it's not even like.

you can't even sort of. point to like. as if i was trying to do something and. then oops that happened it's like. there's no nothing that logically makes. sense if somebody was trying to. um. uh decipher. my you know whatever motives i might. have had yeah you didn't walk away from. the explosion you were inside the. explosion. okay. but that said the movie implied and so i. mean it's interesting to ask.

um not just. in. and clarifying the movie but just as a. human being. you're out of prison he's out of prison. there was. you know there was that. um toxic connection but it was there. and there was a depth to it so toxic. connections could be pretty deep. so. how what what was the conversation like. and how often have you talked with him. well we don't speak anymore um and.

that call on at the end was even on g. chat recorded. was recorded on like i recorded the call. and gave it to them you know so i was. like deliberately recording him it's not. like i was caught on a hot mic like i. made that call it's part of the. documentary i reported him intentionally. i was trying to get him to repeat some. of like the kookier things he would say. about. like his meat suit or. some of the weird like. the things about.

something not being real. the more like fantastical things i was. trying to get him to repeat those things. it was probably like a 40-minute call. which i mean it's actually on my phone i. still have it i haven't gone back to. listen to it but you ever think of. publishing that whole thing oh yeah oh i. think about publishing everything my. entire journal oh you should publish. that call unedited just publish it that. would be fun no i want to publish like a. lot of stuff. he took all these videos of me also that. they used a couple of clips of and i. would yeah i mean i would they're also.

on my phone i would publish them all i. would publish everything. in particular. um because should i release that with. your book skip. yeah. i probably i mean i've planned to do. that. eventually if all of that material would. be really useful to um. psychologists or people studying it so. to the extent that it would help other. people understand what happened. um which is still out there meaningful. yeah he's still out there doing weird.

weird shit. with his clean slate. i get a little annoyed about that. he's got the clean slate well he didn't. have a. restaurant he didn't have a persona. does he have any public persona or no or. we don't know he got booted off of. twitter. we'll put him back on. is that a passive aggressive thing no. not at all i i find that whole. conversation really really interesting. um whether to put somebody like anthony. on back on twitter well no i think.

because i used to always think like if. only. everybody had to identify as themselves. on twitter and you could have like a. parody account yeah or like like leon. has an account but it's very clear that. it's me behind it or sometimes there's. like you know devin nunes cow like so. people have parody accounts but but if. we could identify who it is. then. um. a lot of why did he get booted off of. twitter. i don't know but i used to so in the. last few years i would periodically.

probably like once a month maybe more i. would like look at his twitter just to. kind of see like well where is he and. um. you know like just to see like what is. he up to. and um. and i figured out i could tell from the. photographs that he'd moved to. california and i think he might have. told me one of the last times i spoke to. him. that he was going to move to california. but. um. and then i also. screen grabbed a lot of stuff that he. put on twitter and he put these creepy.

videos of himself on twitter at the. beginning of covid i screen grabbed. those um. just and then one day i went and like he. was you know account was suspended. and then i kept going back and it's like. been suspended ever since so he might. have started a new account and i don't i. don't know what it is. probably he's probably in california. you're saying. he is in california that's been. verified somebody who was gonna have to. interact with him in an official. capacity. was gonna go meet him and i said.

and was nervous about it and i said. um. he's going to be really likable like. you're going to like him he's probably. going to like figure out what you're. interested in. talk sports talk whatever it is that he. figures out quickly that you're. interested in he's going to be really. nice he's going to seem like a nice guy. and that person later got back to me was. like you're exactly right yeah um so. yeah that's the that's the sociopath. thing right. yeah extremely careful but inside.

relationship that's even more dangerous. like. so i think that. part of the reason i spoke to him was. entirely self-serving and strategic. after the fact. well even before i knew there was ever. going to be a documentary i spoke to him. and i and i knew how dangerous it was. because i knew that. in a situation like this you're supposed. to have no contact which makes sense and. i understand why which makes it extra. tragic when people have kids with a.

sociopath or in a narcissistic abusive. relationship if you have kids then. you're tethered which is tragic. but. why are you supposed to avoid. conversations because you you can get. pulled right back so they have no. contact yeah because they'll. continue. abuse or they'll you'll be. vulnerable to them being able to pull. you back in. so i knew that to be the case um. but why was it self-serving why did you. talk to him anyway.

because he was getting out. um he was gonna be out free out in the. open while i was gonna be locked up at. rikers for three and a half months. and the one thing. that. you know if his motivation was to. destroy me. then what what else could he do to. really like you know hammer that last. nail in the coffin yeah. that would be leon. and. so he would have known that leon would. be staying with my mother.

you know he knows where he spent a lot. of time at her house he knows where she. lives it would be super easy for him to. just drive up there. you know wait. for her to let him out. and then you know he'd because out in. the country. he can be off leash and all he'd have to. do is kind of whistle call him over and. he could take him away and do whatever. so i was completely. like gripped with that fear. so not fear for yourself but fear for. leon.

well i was gonna be. at least safe from him but i was. gonna be locked away so. oh oh yeah yeah rikers yeah sure so i. got it got it got it. i would be powerless to do anything and. he would be have free reign to go. destroy me further by um. you know taking or hurting leon. um. and then when he got out. i. still um i had unfollowed him from my.

own account but. leon had never unfollowed him so i i was. looking at i know. i was looking at his um. at his account i just love can i just. say because uh because joe has a um. his he hasn't account for his dog too i. just love when people do that it's so. great because i actually pretend. in my mind for some reason i do think. leon has an account like i don't. you forget that there's a human behind. it you're like oh okay cool yeah. i know i love it when people do that.

anyway so continue so leon didn't. unfollow him and what what. so. i was able to go back and look at his. twitter and um. he. he somehow he quickly got a phone but he. very quickly started tweeting right. after he got out yeah and um. and i was kind of like fascinated. because i didn't know. what to expect or what he was going to. be saying and and um. and then he started saying things that i. could tell were directed at me you know.

like little things that only i would. know. um you know like random things like. things that were like the equivalent of. like an inside joke that you have just. so he was. posting things like that. and um. there's so many things going on at once. so another thing that would have in a. twisted but i think understandable way. in sort of a sick way that i was fully. aware of. is that.

here i am having gone through this. completely like messed up thing that now. i'm in trouble for everybody's looking. at and nobody understands. right. and so there was this unfortunate. situation of the only person who. understands. what. i went through. is the person who put me through it yeah. right so. so is it were you also just a little bit. seeking closure of some kind. probably a lot but also with the. awareness that i probably wasn't gonna.

get it you know and i mean i. i know for a fact i would never get it. in the same way that. which is why. um. which is why i was able to later on. like in the context of recording those. calls. i was able to talk to him. in this detached way. because i know he doesn't give a shit. that like he doesn't give any shits. about what he did to my mother or me or. anybody or anything just doesn't care so.

he's certainly not going to care if i. you know he's never going to say like. i'm sorry or. i did a bad thing or. or like he's not gonna be affected if. like if i yelled and screamed at him. that would just be frustrating for me. and he would actually probably be. gratified by that. so. so that that gave you uh that empowered. you in being. cold and sort of yes and i had a distant. prior experience. where i had to do the same thing where.

like if you're if you're able to. be very. cold and not allow somebody to push your. buttons. then you're taking away their power and. then that feels empowering or feels like. we're claiming a little bit of your. power so. in my talking to him i always had a. reason you know like there was always. like i didn't want him to hurt leon or. i wanted information or i wanted to know. where he was i'd rather let him think. that. you know maybe he could still manipulate.

me one day or whatever it was like safer. to keep. that there than to not know where he was. and if i was gonna like. be walking leon and turn the corner and. he's standing there and you know like it. like if there's a crazy murderer out on. the loose you'd rather know where they. are than have no i have no idea. so there are a lot of different reasons. um why does it upset you. why was it wrong to have that audio clip. at the end of the documentary like what.

did it uh well because it implied all. kinds of things that were completely not. true and it also just didn't make sense. and it confused people and. um so. so for people who haven't watched that. spoiler alert as they play the the clip. of. um sorry i don't even remember what was. said but it was kind of. that last what we spoke about yeah what. was the what was that i only watched. like i still haven't watched it i only. watched the film once yeah while.

you know people were looking at me for. my reaction and i was crying and it was. really weird and strange and surreal and. i haven't gone back to watch it again i. feel like i'm just gonna get more. annoyed. but i i will eventually but. and when i. when the ending happened i immediately. blurted out like i hate that i hate that. ending but i sort of assumed. a lot of people saw it for what it was. they saw that it was like. the director doing a weird thing and.

that it was kind of just weird and off. and like that doesn't make sense yeah it. seemed blue but so it was basically you. joking around like flirting almost it. made it seem like. as if we're still friendly yeah um and. there's more to come it's almost like. there's going to be. a um. bad vegan too. right or. yeah and then also i mean it made it. seem like. you know. if i was laughing with him that i. don't take anything seriously you know. that i don't take what happened.

seriously or yeah but it's like a. feeling of remorse exactly. yeah and they. after that he goes the credits with the. wild world. which is a great song. yes oh baby it's a wild world. i never got to hear that because the. version i watched didn't have the end. credits but i knew that they used that. song at the end um. and uh paid a lot for it. yeah yeah i was like oh why you got this. song. did you ever say what was the darkest.

thing. about yourself that you discovered from. the book yes oh. we we did we no we took. yeah about the g chats and i think um. it was. i guess it was trying to understand how. i was able to be sarcastic and make. jokes at his expense. dirt while all that stuff was going on. ah.

so what's that that's that have you. figured out. what that means about you. no no it just was interesting to look at. and. also i think um. you know i've. i have a tendency i have a tendency. sometimes to be sort of like. jokingly. hyperbolic or sarcastic and it's gotten. me into trouble. one. one time it i got.

locked up in the. harlem psych ward for a day because of. my hyperbole and sarcasm and like. until the story lost in translation. errors. that's that's a heck of a loss in. translation error yeah. did you did you say something funny to a. therapist it was um yeah i mean i was. sort of making jokes about. how bad i was feeling but in a. hyperbolic way and so then suddenly. somebody told somebody.

and then the loss in translation and. then they were worried that i might kill. myself. and then did a wellness check and then. tried to call me and i was in the shower. so i didn't answer the phone. so then. somebody called the police to do a. wellness check on me. um things just escalated and then uh not. knowing that. um. if i had handled it the right if i had. immediately. um. if i'd sort of understood what was going. on and handled it the right way. immediately i probably could have gotten.

out of it but they err on the side of. taking you to the hospital no matter. what makes a lot of sense and i didn't. know that and it also um so you really. leaned into the joke by going to the. hospital. i didn't. it's sort of one of those situations. that was both comical and tragic because. and would actually make a really good. um. it's weird how i do this sometimes like. it would make a really good scene in a. and a filmed version who would play you. in the film. uh i don't know.

there is a thing being made that's. sharon. because um. because. have you cast the scene yet. no. but. there's a thing being made that i have. nothing to do with which is frustrating. and weird a film about you about. it's like somebody's making a. fictionalized drama. and it's frustrating because. for all kinds of obvious reasons it's. like. annoying and it can go anyway it could. go anywhere you could be like the bad. guy inevitably they'll get a bajillion.

things wrong. and they're also a bunch of people like. profiting off of it and like thanks guys. you know so it's infuriating for all. kinds of. reasons do you know who's playing who. are the. actors no i don't even like i just don't. like all i'll inevitably know but i. don't really want to know the whole. thing is just annoying and also. i've always people ask me this all the. time and i always thought. um because of the way. everything that happened was such a kind. of a slow build and there was so much.

nuance and it's. it's kind of really hard to understand. that it could only really be done well. in like a breaking bad type of series. long. like a long series where like you would. be taken through these kind of. gut-wrenching. icky. slow build things. and then peop that would make it all. make sense like that. if it was done that way it could be done. accurately. but. the reason why i think um.

so i made these stupid jokes and then. somebody did a wellness check and um. or have you ever asked the police to do. it well but when they knocked on my door. and came in it was like a repeat of. getting arrested so i sort of weirdly. flashed back to that and then burst into. tears which isn't the appropriate. response if you're trying to. um. diffuse a. if you're trying to discourage the. people coming to do the wellness check. from taking you to the hospital starting.

to cry is not the good the right. reaction well the thing is i mean. there is. it's funny but it could be also through. the joke. that. the joke the best jokes are grounded in. truth and pain in this case pain. yeah right so there you go. um have you ever. if i may ask. considered suicide. yes.

one. well. i'm kind of a wimp so i you know i'm. afraid of all of the gruesome ways but. um. one of the things i remember doing. is. sort of hoarding medications. which i had. when um. around the time and before he took me. away. because i wanted like i wanted to i.

wanted the safety of a like an out. um. and. but around that time so when it when. anthony went that's the the road trip. right before the road trip from hell you. were around that time yeah sporting. medication and like i yeah. like if i could get my hands on any sort. of weird medication i would. i would kind of hold on to it. um. and. to all the chaos but i think i knew that. it would be hard to do it that way.

but i didn't thought about it but i. never. um. in that really tough time. you know you're thinking about. you're thinking about taking your own. life. what gave you hope. what gave you sort of because. the business. the the restaurant that you give so much. of yourself to is lost. you're lying to everybody. you're in the hole financially.

you're being. psychologically trapped manipulated go. kill myself now. well you're still there. um please don't see i made a joke about. it like that's there you go. um but it's always there. it's the uh. albert camus you know says. you basically always have to. be. uh aggressively looking for a reason to.

live. otherwise. what's the point. yeah otherwise it's easy to to go the. other way. because why live is a very good question. um but anyways it's by way of hope by. way you know it's it's a dark time. that's the dark time. if you could sort of look back what. um we'll give you just strength. i think that just. you know just having like a sort of.

relentless optimism. um and i think too that. sometimes people assume that. suicide is the result of circumstances. which may be in maybe in some cases it. is but i think one of the things that. that book explains well is that very. often it doesn't have anything to do. with circumstances it's just the. the pain. which book. the the darkness visible. um you know because people like to cry. so when somebody commits suicide people.

will very often criticize them like it. was a selfish act if they have a family. which most people do but especially if. they have kids and i think that. um. yeah everybody's quick to sort of call. the person who killed themselves selfish. and um. it's i think that the type of pain that. one is experiencing that leads to that. is something that most people and i. don't like people don't understand. but it's not a selfish thing it's just. like quite literally becomes intolerable.

from what i understand. and it can hit you it could be slow it. could be fast. yes that pain. yes so. i think because. for me it was more just my circumstances. were so. crappy but also i had an awareness that. you know even in rikers i knew how. wildly lucky. i was to. have you know. family a support system. you know. opportunities in like i'll always be.

okay one way or another. um. so. i felt. lucky that i i have that but. uh you know. also i want you know the shame of. everything that happened and. you know will i ever be able to crawl. out from under it. and rebuild something i don't know. um. so there were certainly times where.

especially when i would learn something. new like reading the emails between. mr fox my mother i just wanted a. so he i wanted like a meteor to hit. my particular spot on the earth. right then and there just because it was. he was manipulating your mom too because. your mom loved you and was willing to. give money yeah. yeah and it was really grotesque and so. and i feel like it's my fault. um what's your mom say about this whole. situation now looking back.

we don't talk about it as much as one. would think that we. would. um. because i feel sickening because i feel. like it's my fault and i think she also. feels sick over it and so we don't talk. about it as much as one might think. sometimes i've had to ask questions in. the process of writing the book. and then there are other things where. like i could ask the questions but i. just don't want to because i don't want. to put her through that or. you know it's not really. necessary to ask the questions but there.

are things that i'm sort of curious. about. um. but. when you. went on that road trip from hell. what was what was that like where'd you. guys go first vegas. so you drove from new york. where. it was a series of stops at like hotel. motel type places because i did a. similar road trip but from boston i.

drove across the united states. with no destination i had always wanted. to do that and now again i feel like. it's one of those things that sort of. like ruined for me because. a lot of you can always reclaim it. yeah i could but now. yeah. i did think about like how one day if i. did some sort of a book tour or. something that i imagine this but leon. and i in a car. it has to be different than uh. uh man. book tours.

they if not if you're not careful can. suck the soul. out of a human being i think you have to. do like a hunter s thompson style um. book tour where you miss a bunch of the. dates because you got too drunk the. night before but anyway or i just what i. worry about is that i just would. be feeling terrible. in some way and not be. up for it. or for the trip or for off the speaking. because for like a certain type of.

appearance i think i'm always afraid of. that. in um. committing to things like if it involved. going to a big public event yeah i think. you have to be very careful like podcast. is an interesting one i'm always. surprised that people just. jump on podcasts they haven't really. listened to. and just just do a lot a lot of podcasts. that kind of book tour. first of all financially it doesn't make. any sense. like especially going on a small podcast. like what's the benefit like really you.

want to go on just a couple of big. podcasts that you're actually a fan of. it's really really really important. people don't. um. like they don't understand the power i. mean maybe you just don't understand. podcasting but me as a fan of podcasts. is like the biggest thing i love. listening to is. when a guest is a fan they understand. that the culture the style the sound the. feel the unders of the podcast they. understand the other person. they feel the pain the hopes of the. other person the the the the weird like.

uh quirks of the other person. makes for much better listening. and ultimately the appearance itself is. not just enough to sell the book you. have to you're selling yourself as a. human being and that requires having. chemistry and all those kinds of things. yeah i agree. and podcast appearance is exhausting. like you're giving a lot of yourself. it's intimate it's deep like i don't. know. anyway. road trip you don't remember the motels. in the hotels along the way.

well there are a lot of things where. like i'll remember things that happened. but i don't remember where it was. he just drove without a destination. really. i assume he must have known ahead of. time but he made it seem like like oh. funny we ended up in vegas. funny how that happened but it now when. i see all the places that we stopped. they were all places with um where there. were casinos. so there's a lot more casinos around the.

country than i knew. um. and there. uh so. so he had a gambling addiction. yes but i think that. it's not a so i think that regular. people have gambling addictions and it's. a horrible tragic thing and can destroy. their lives and i you know i know people. who've like it regular people can have a. gam. a gambling addiction which is explained. in the way that addictions are explained. um for him i don't think it was so much.

an addiction as. um. like a thrill seeking because. he could win money lose money and he. didn't really care whereas. somebody who has an actual addiction and. then all. normal people with normal human emotions. you know would either be elated. and relieved or. devastated. um. to lose a lot of money and for him it it. it didn't really care it was more again. i think it was more just like a game.

like what what were you what was going. through your mind here like would you be. on the run did you feel like you were on. the run. no did you know you were on the run. no so i didn't know that um i mean the. other thing is the. the restaurant was operating. and he took me away and then like. people weren't paid and it all sort of. fell apart and you weren't checking your. texts or any any of that. no and then he had my phone. and my email.

um i did. later on get. later on i got a brand new phone with. like a. an empty phone with no existing numbers. in it or whatnot. and so that he and i could communicate. when. i you know. i was. went to the grocery store or something. like that what was the uh what was the. reason he had the phone like what was. the narrative the story that he he was. taking over your phone. was it i mean.

like how how did you allow that to. happen or maybe a better way to ask us. how did he make that happen. well i was conditioned to it before. because before he was always checking my. phone which. was. wildly infuriating and i feel like um. like. you fixed it by giving him the phone. well i mean the conditions were. different later on but in some sense i.

didn't want my phone because everything. like i was in a state of shock and it. was just like. take it fine like i give up like i guess. i'd given up. and and so. yeah i'd given up so there was no like i. wasn't going to fight back on anything. um. before when he would take my phone and. look through it it was it was. infuriating. and he sort of. forced me to get used to it. and this is again something that like. people have been in cults would. understand because it's like they. condition you to not.

react negatively to things that you. would normally react negatively to. um. and like if i was in a relationship like. if somebody. i would never ever look in somebody's. phone. and. and if somebody did that to me i would. be like goodbye. um so. i'm pretty sensitive about that. and um. so it was very infuriating when he would. take my phone and look at it and it it.

got to the point where. not only did i feel like everything i. you know said or wrote or. emailed digitally or whatnot. would be read but he he got me to the. point of feeling like i was being. watched all the time. in a. non-explainable way. yeah what were some of the. you didn't mention them some of the. documentary touches on some of them. what are some of the fantastical stories. so he mentioned that.

he might help make uh leon a more. immortal. what. all of that was always really vague i. mean intentionally like a lot of what he. talked about was always very vague. but. a lot of that stuff was very vague and. and again like but convincing slowly. over time and a lot of those things too. are things that. um. [Music]. you know conveniently. you kind of can't disprove. so it's almost like you know people.

believe in god or religious people. believe certain things. um and so. one could argue why. is it that much crazier for me to have. been open to the idea that. you know maybe leon. maybe we do live forever. in some way when so a lot of religious. people have similar beliefs so one of. the other thing is he was uh. what um maybe you can correct me but. reincarnated or something like that. or.

he acted like he. had lived many lifetimes and had all. kinds of. wisdom from having. lived all these prior lifetimes. and being. aware of it so was that and it was vague. but it was somehow believable or is it. just like part of the charm. like what. how do you. how do you not call bullshit. i know uh we're not not necessarily.

bullshit i i understand when you're. smitten in whatever way. but like one a little more details. proof i suppose it's easy to just. you know like um. put it off for later. assume that more details will come later. right. i think he's a mentalist or an. illusionist named darren brown. and it was. on a joe rogan podcast i think joe.

interviewed darren brown. um. i think sam harris interviewed him i got. really intrigued and then i was looking. for other podcasts or maybe joe. interviewed him. like right after. i may have gone looking for it but. anyway it was in the it was in the. conversation with joe where darren. explains um he's somebody i would love. to to meet. a mentalist an illusionist because they. understand a lot of the ways in which. the mind can be manipulated so i feel. like they would if they. looked at everything about my situation.

they would be able to understand better. how. he was able to get me to. believe things or go along with things. or. because darren brown is pretty. fascinating what he does and he's really. seems like a very kind person and he's. very open about it and um when he was. talking to joe he said this thing. that and i use this quote in my book. um. and again i'm paraphrasing because i. don't have in front of me but it's like. he says something about how um.

we want to believe the lie. because we'd rather believe. that it's something amazing than just. that ugly and pathetic a lie. [Music]. and i. whatever he said was said in a much. better way but the point is like that's. and so he was explaining it in the. context of the way that an illusionist. or whatever. they're called is able to to pull off. certain things. which is that they're sort of. you know somebody was about somebody who.

was watching and watched them watch that. person um. sort of leverage people's tendency to. want to believe that something amazing. and cool is about to happen versus like. this is just a really ugly pathetic lie. so i think that a lot of the things. um. that. that mr fox that that he put forward um. i couldn't understand it from the. perspective of it being a lie because it. just seemed too weird and crazy so i. think that this happens sometimes where.

um you believe somebody because. it seems so weird that they would. lie about it i think that somebody has. or it's been said sometimes that like. the more fantastical the lie the more. believable it is because you don't you. don't believe that somebody would tell. that lie. and i think um. something also that mr fox people like. him are capable of doing is going out. and lying. in very brazen ways that normal people.

would be terrified to do. so that kind of also makes it more. believable yeah so if somebody could go. out on a world stage and lie. and not. kind of. feel weird about that or. even knowing that it's a lie that can be. pointed out as being a lie um. and then there's also the the. layer of to what extent is this person. in some way also delusional themselves. and sort of believing their lies because. people have asked me that and i've. wondered the same thing to what extent.

did he believe some of the stuff he was. saying and i think probably. there was some. sort of. delusional aspect almost like he was. sort of halfway aware of playing his own. sort of virtual reality game you know. like. like he was in some kind of metaverse in. his brain so you think he believed some. of the things he was saying. in some way yeah. what uh or he wanted to you know because. he wanted to be his own like he wanted.

to be a superhero you know he never. built anything or created anything or. accomplished anything in his life. yet. you know so so in his own brain if he. could turn himself into like a movie. superhero it's a nice shortcut. yeah what about the navy seal thing did. that ever. get resolved. you know the. the lie that he he you know he said that. he's a navy seal. i don't remember i don't know if he said. he was a navy seal or that he implied.

that he like worked with the cia or then. it was like he worked with black ops. that you know is by definition under the. radar right so i mean that's obviously a. huge red flag now going forward is like. if somebody. first of all if somebody tells you that. information pretty quickly that's itself. a red flag but. i mean. all right cross i'm you cross that off. my list of pick-up lines. um. but you know conveniently if he.

say. in some world he actually did work for. like black water or one of those places. or. yeah there i wouldn't be able to just. call someplace and verify it um. anyway yeah so i think that. in some psychological way that i don't. understand he probably did in some way. halfway exists in this world where he. was this. um. you know like fighter and he would say.

things like it's because of people like. me that people like you can sleep at. night which is probably a line out of a. movie that i've never seen i feel like a. lot of things great that's a great. that's funny. that is a good the um who said that. that's a really that's uh is that really. a line out of a movie it's not a movie. it's uh. you know what would happen at rikers is. when these things would happen where one. of us couldn't think of something and. you're like oh who was that actor in. that movie and that thing. no and so what we'd do is like somebody.

would be on the phone and you'd be like. hey. who are you talking to can you ask them. to look up on their phone like so we'd. ask people on the phone or somebody. would go make a call and. you know you'd have to call somebody and. ask them to google. the cast of a movie or something like. that i think you would find jail don't. ever get arrested or try not to but i. think you would find jail fascinating oh. i always wanted to go to jail. prison because uh. there's a lot of elements to it and i'll. ask you questions about it but i feel.

like i can get a lot of reading done. i got a ton of reading done yes yeah yes. i don't remember now people attribute. this to george orwell but they're not. sure if george orwell ever said it but. it's something like there's a lot of. different variations. but we sleep safely at night because. rough men stand ready to visit violence. on those who would harm us. and there's a lot of variations of this. but basically we depend our entire. society depends on. bad motherfuckers who are willing to.

fight. to protect our freedoms to protect our. well-being. and um. one of the things about the united. states is because we're surrounded by. water we don't get to see the violence. that's required. in part to protect the sovereignty of. nations. uh you mentioned. that i would uh not to go to prison but. that i. may enjoy my time there let me ask you.

uh not the i mean by the way i love. prison movies you would find it. fascinating i don't because it's like. still kind of too soon. but well how was your time you spent. three and a half. months. at rigers how was that how was your. experience in prison. how's the food from a chef perspective. not good but rikers was. um. when i got to write because i so. i was arrested i spent i think about 10.

days in a tennessee small town tennessee. jail. um. oh pigeon forge is also the weirdest. place on earth is it a town yes that's. the town where i was arrested why is it. so weird um. in the film they i told them i told them. you have to go to pigeon forge you have. to go there you have to go there and i i. think i was pushing them because it was. gonna potentially be. the end of the season. it's like a summer time or it's a. tourist destination.

and it's so bizarre and weird and trippy. that. um. it doesn't even seem real seems like a. carnival is happening there non-stop. exactly it's it's car i think i say that. in my intro that it's carnival-esque and. trippy and weird. is there a lot of clowns walking around. or not necessarily clowns but there is a. video on youtube that i. cause i got to the chapter where we. arrive in pigeon forge and i'll never.

forget although i have forgotten but i. remember being. like weirdly. like felt like we were had entered a. different universe driving down this. strip and just looking at everything on. either side and i'm wishing that i could. remember in more detail like the names. of the places or what was there because. i wanted to describe it um in this. chapter and i was like i wish somebody i. wish there was like a video of somebody. going down the street kind of showing. what's on one side and then the other.

side and i was like. there probably is and there is on. youtube like i found it and i watched. the whole thing how does this come up. from prison exactly. um picture. oh okay. so that's the town that i went to jail. and. all right in tennessee right so what was. that like. the food there. and some of the conditions. the food. made when i got to. um that i was extradited and transferred. to rikers and when i got to rikers i.

felt like it was like the four seasons. in comparison wow so um and i i really. kind of appreciated a lot of things. about. about new york when i got when i got to. rikers even though there are a lot of. things that are very scary about it. where's uh right located is it close to. new york city. yes and in a very. kind of. almost. poetically interesting way. the the dorm room where i was when i was. there for the three and a half months. was one of the ones that faced manhattan.

so i could go across the room and look. out the window and see the whole. manhattan skyline. which was i remember being. shocked by. the cost. per prisoner per year. yes. that uh new york pays it's like 400 500. 000 or something. i didn't think it was that much i. thought i wrote it down but either way. it is no i mean it it. elevated uh during covid which is.

fascinating to that the number i just. said. yeah. during covet i felt sick to my stomach. thinking about people stuck there and. again so rikers isn't like a long-term. prison it's most of the people at rikers. are awaiting. trial. and they've been arrested but not. convicted and then if you're convicted. and you're sentenced to less than a year. then you put on a different color. uniform and you go upstairs to different. dorms. if you're convicted and sentenced to. more than a year you're sent to one of.

the upstate prisons. so most of the people at rikers are. there in transition they've been. arrested but not. they've been arrested but not. convicted or awaiting trial so you could. be. perfectly innocent. and you're stuck there and that happens. to a lot of people. or you could be arrested. over some kind of. comparatively petty thing or non-violent. thing. and and stuck there because you don't. have as little as 500 to pay.

bail which is completely. messed up and unjust. and i think most people most reasonable. people agree that it's unjust. but it's different when you're there and. you see those people and you see. um kind of the anguish. and whether i mean i have no idea if. they're guilty of what i mean. i usually. don't know what people are there for. what the situation is but you watch. the sort of.

help helplessness set in um. because you're kind of powerless there. you have very little contact with the. outside world you have these limited. phone calls. and so. for people who had kids in a job and an. apartment it's like one by one those. things are lost or their. kids are now being looked after by their. abusive ex-husband or something like. that and so watching that is just. gut-wrenching and then also. knowing that. the only reason they're unable to get. out is because of you know a thousand.

dollars two thousand dollars in some. cases five hundred dollars there were. people um. so there's all of these tragic cases but. then there was also. while i was there i mean if i'd had any. money i would have been wanting to bail. people out left and right and then in. some cases i think there was a woman. there snored really loud and her bail. was five hundred dollars and i was like. i wish i had i wanna bail out she just. wanted to bail her out so. um because i'm pretty sensitive to.

sounds and being in a room with 50. people inevitably. so you're in a room with a large number. of people yeah there are um. there are areas there with cells but a. lot of the areas there are. um. rooms with. 50 beds so and they're about three feet. apart from each other so. during covid there was certainly no. social distancing. um. and that just felt kind of. sickening especially because.

so many people are there for. non-violent things or drug addiction. related or mental health issues. um part of that you personally just. having spent that time there for. three and a half months how did that. change you. like what. did that have an effect on your mind. on my mind personally i think i was.

i was. surprised. at how. well i adapted and then how i was able. to um and then i think i sort of took it. a next level when one of the books. somebody sent me was um. the untethered soul by michael singer. and it's very much about like observing. your mind and um. that kind of. helped take it to next level so was this. like a meditation retreat for you. well it's like.

it'd be like trying to meditate in the. middle of a circus or. in crazy circumstances because you're. never alone. there's nowhere to be alone and there's. always talking there's noises there's. fighting noises chaos um did you feel in. danger. yes. but. um. i i never i never felt terrified there. um. you know one of my friends the bathroom.

is the scary place because they don't. have cameras in the. um. in the bathroom so that's sort of a. one has to watch out there and i did one. of my friends who i. one of the people i was friends with. there she did get. um beat up a bit in the bathroom. one day. a lot of weird shit happened in the. bathroom. um but it was. from a if you're interested in human. behavior and psychology and. it's it can be fascinating to kind of.

sit there and watch they're saying like. you might enjoy prison for that. perspective like just you get to watch. human nature it's. um. like at the. i don't want to say that it's worse but. like the full variety that it can. uh. take right and there was a lot of beauty. there as well i mean was there love. people being um. well again depends on the definition of. love but. people being you know incredibly. generous and kind to each other um.

um sometimes people singing at. night um. there was just a lot of. and then there was a lot of you know. hilarious stuff it's just it's all there. there's like those tragic things. um. you know interesting things. a lot of people with mental health. issues which is um can be. difficult. to witness so very different experience. i should.

ask you this but. um. somebody that's currently in prison. galen maxwell. i believe she spent. approximately 500 days in isolation. so. it's a very difficult different prison. experience. but what do you think about her case. what do you think about her and jeffrey. epstein. she. so. her brother her family. she says.

that she's a victim. not the monster. i think this is an especially. fascinating case because um. and i've i have. listened to podcasts about the you know. the epstein situation. um. and there was one that was more focused. on her by vicki ward that i would. definitely listen to. um. vicki ward. is a journalist i think she'd written an. article about jeffrey epstein for vanity.

fair so she got to know jeffrey epstein. and then she knew colleen maxwell um. from being sort of part of the. social circle in which they would have. overlapped have you by the way ever met. them since this new york. do you remember meeting this. you know uh. jeffrey or. or gillian. no i never met them but they're also. very much like this sort of upper east. side crowd um i did meet harvey. weinstein once that made me have all. kinds of interesting thoughts later.

at the restaurant or elsewhere no it was. weird it was out on the street. and we had this really strange. interaction. and. knowing what i know now. it was eerie and. and also like had he contacted me after. that. and made it seem like he could have done. something for me like would i have. been. you know say he said oh i'm gonna. finance your whole expansion or. something and like come to my you know.

come meet me at this hotel and then i go. to that hotel and then he's like come up. to the room and then i would have been. like uh. and you're wondering whether you would. have done it. yes and sadly i think i would have and. so i felt a lot of. compassion for. um. those who. you know didn't. yell at him and leave or didn't storm. out. and because i think. what happens in those situations. is um.

you know there's all kinds of. uncertainty in the moment and you sort. of freeze and then you'll if. i'm probably one of those people that. would. sit there and somehow in the moment. without clarity. just instinctively feel like somehow i. must have done something wrong and it's. my fault and and like i led him on and. or just being afraid and then and then. you don't know how to deal with it and. so you freeze. um.

so i think that. you know if you're somebody that. maybe was raised differently or you have. a lot of self-confidence or. um you might have. reacted differently and kind of. pushed them away and stormed out. um. but i am probably not one of those. people. but i did not ever meet jeffrey epstein. but he seems very straightforwardly um. you know just a classic the way he was. able to charm people the way he.

could step into these roles um. you know i think he was teaching at. dalton and then. just kind of the way he would get. himself into the. the academic crowd within harvard and i. think also mit right he sort of. so he's playing a role but he's doing it. so well that he fools all these people. and what and the things that people. would. in hindsight say about him. are just the same things that people say.

about it's like you hear the same things. over and over again you hear the same. thing said about those people who were. taken in by elizabeth holmes is that. they were like. it was as if he was under a spell it was. as if i was under a spell. is something you hear a lot and so it's. like they have this. powerful charm that's almost over it's. overwhelming in that they overwhelm your. better judgment or they overwhelm your. like normal. otherwise normally functioning capacity.

for. rational thought and they sort of. overwhelm that with their charm so. you know when you look at i think it was. like james mattis invested a bunch of. money with elizabeth holmes and. all these people were involved with her. and nobody really did their due. diligence where they just sort of. trusted her. and jeffrey epstein. i think it's still unclear where he got. all of his money. but the guy. wexner. les wexner. who had you know.

an enormous amount of money and somehow. very quickly turned over management of. it to jeffrey epstein and so people. wonder like why would he do that that's. insane. and and and then other people have. commented. about that relationship like it was as. if he was under jeffrey's spell you know. observers would say i couldn't. understand it it was as if he was under. his spell and so somebody observing. me and mr fox could have possibly said. the same thing about me. but it's a bit different because it. wasn't all charm i think. um epstein used his charm and then was.

probably very very very crafty and. getting um another thing that people. like him do and cults do also is to get. um. is to get you somehow compromised. because then they've got you. so i think. some kind of. usually sex related. yeah and with epstein certainly you know. he was known to have cameras everywhere. and so if he got any of these people on. camera doing something compromising and. all very powerful people.

then he's got them. um and i think he was also very smart to. do that to target people of both parties. so that politically. that he was able to maintain his power. like no matter. like. nobody wanted him to be totally exposed. because then. people. a lot of people would be exposed um by. the way that part you know. that's all kind of. conspiracy right. right we don't know that.

i. so a lot of people believe that and. you know i tend to kind of naturally. believe that because that makes sense. but it's also possible that. straight up with charisma. i mean he did record people and there. were recordings so. i listened to an interview with a woman. who i mean was a girl back then maybe. she was 15 or 16 back then. um. and subsequently. years later. was able to see some of the video of.

i mean i think it's a verifiable thing. that there were video cameras all over. his house yeah the degree to which it. was used. right we don't know that. and um. to the degree of how many people were. involved and so on there's all kinds of. conspiracies around the man but the. question about. her. her galen. so. i only know what i know from the inputs. which are. the vicky ward. it was it's a pod it's one of the.

podcasts it's a narrative podcast so. it's like a. um. it's like an audio kind of a documentary. or journalistic piece that she did and. put out. i thought it was really really well done. i think it's called chasing galen. um and i listened to that whole thing. i didn't intend to listen to it all. in one stretch that's how you know it's. good i mean it was like a weekend and i. basically was. you know cleaning and doing other things. and walking leon and listening to it and. i got through it pretty quickly but i.

got really fascinated by it because um. i don't i don't know but i think. i feel. like i find the whole situation. gut-wrenching because i think. jeffrey epstein is a straight-up like. straight-up. sociopath like. no question. with her. everybody's calling her. evil and. for her to have enabled and done a lot.

of the things that she did. could potentially require. one might say that it could require a. lack of empathy to be able to do those. things. knowingly. um. but at the same time. i think. the the information that was conveyed in. the vicki ward. piece. was fascinating to me because it's clear. that at the very least it's like it's.

like all of these things could be true. she could maybe be. not enough of a good person to have you. know horribly victimized these young. girls and destroy their lives but she. could have all. i feel like i'm going to get bashed for. saying this but she could have in some. way have. not quite known what she was doing or. been a bit out of her mind. i'm just saying people i i would hope. that people would be open to that's. to exploring that as a possibility well.

her family and friends are making that. case. they're they're painting. a. broad picture of who she is as a human. being and. showing that she couldn't have done any. of those things without being. like. systematically manipulated. that's their right what i listened to. in that podcast about. her relationship with her father. the. how her father died um.

her things about her childhood and then. epstein coming into her life and. basically kind of pushing all those. buttons and becoming like the father. figure and so she would be in a position. of kind of always wanting his approval. and. um. and just the way that. things that are described about the way. that she. um. like was so subservient to him.

in this kind of astonishing way. that seems really weird and abnormal. and yet i think she had a lot of. money and connections and i think she. lost the money but had all the. connections either way there was a lot. that a ton that epstein gained via his. relationship with her like a ton. so. it makes sense that he would have. manipulated her he manipulates everybody. so he. without question i think one could argue.

he definitely manipulated her and again. i want to be like careful not to be. saying like that's an excuse for what. she did. i just think that. that's one possibility it's important to. like. explore these things and be open to them. as opposed to just. like broad brush painting her as a. horrible person i mean. because people could say that based on. things they've. read or things that i did that like i'm. a horrible person and it's very it's com. very different because what she did.

involved. um. you know young girls whose lives were. destroyed. um. but i think that. people. could be a bit open to understanding how. somebody could be manipulated. there's a there's a psychologist that. i'm. friends with that i got to know. after i watched him on um. leah remini's. show so leah remini is the actress who.

was in scientology got out and has. really been speaking out about it and. trying to expose um. what they're all about and how. diabolical that organization is and a. lot of people are exposing them and um. you know. doing this type of work and so she had. this guy on her show who was in the. moonies. and his name is um steve haasen. and. um so he was in a cult and then he got. out again by extreme circumstances he. got in a car accident almost died and.

that's. what ended up getting him out of the. cult that he was in but really smart guy. um was targeted when he was young got. pulled into the moonies. but watching this interview of him on. her show. he said. he's talking about his experience and he. said if they had told me to kill. somebody i would have. and i. that in that moment made me cry but i. also felt. like. i understand that. and not that if mr fox had told me to.

kill somebody i don't think i would have. but again i understand how it could get. to that point. so. that makes me feel like with her. like i would be curious what steve. hassan would think kind of analyzing the. entire situation. because it's hard to understand that. unless you've been in it and i. understand with him how he could have. said that if they had told me to kill. somebody i would have yeah that's pretty. intense i mean that's pretty extreme. and it's interesting how you can get.

into it. how far you can go just one day at a. time like gradually. right just. like. the frog in the boiling water yeah so. fascinating i mean all of these cases. are fascinating like patty hearst that. whole story. well i'm just also. i. just uh it's already a while ago re-read. the rise and fall of the third reich. i've been reading a lot a lot about. hitler and gubbin.

for a long time working on a series. about. hitler and the third reich because. it for me it's like returning. so much of my family was destroyed or. impacted by this time in history. that is somehow a way to find out. more about myself is going back to that. time have you ever thought about. inherited drama. this the sounds.

not to mock people. but this sounds like a thing that. um like a woke thing. like like a woke thing yeah i don't mean. it that way at all but i get it because. sometimes. now when i say now i almost have to put. air quotes when i say something's. triggering because i feel like i'm using. a word that's now like. overused or. used in less serious so now when i say. something's triggering it's like.

i use. yeah it's funny because good good words. get get uh taken up and then they get. people are overusing gaslighting yeah. and i worry that that would happen with. sociopathy like i think people need to. understand sociopathy i think it's. critical for humanity that people. understand it yeah so just because. you're being an asshole doesn't doesn't. mean you're a sociopath exactly and i. feel like it's going to be this thing. where now everybody's going to start. calling everybody else's sociopath and. it's like oh you know and right now. everybody calls everything gas lighting. if somebody's lying it's not gas.

lighting i have to talk we started. talking about i already forgot fluff is. it fluff it's fluff right fluff yeah. yeah okay so that was. that was great that's a new discovery. for me what um let's talk about food a. little bit if we can. you know what let's talk about. restaurants first what that's the. fascinating part of the story. before anything else. which is. opening. exceptionally successful restaurant in. nyc new york city what's that take what.

does it take to. to open up from the very beginning from. the idea stage to the launching it both. the finances and the skill of actually. getting people super excited by it and. then running it all that chaos i mean to. me am i over romanticizing but it seems. like new york city is a really tough. place yes to to to launch a restaurant. in yes very well i think because it's. extremely competitive and the standards. are so high so i think that's why there.

are. so many good restaurants. in new york because. if they're not good they're not going to. survive. so even like you could walk into what. looks like a hole in the wall and it's. going to have amazing food. um. that happens a lot so what was the menu. so was it a raw. was it vegan and raw from the beginning. yeah it was and raw means what now i'm. getting thrown back to all the. interviews i did when people ask me. these questions it was so long ago um.

at the time i like being vegan. it. um so nothing was cooked over. roughly 118 degrees it was this very. like. the world of there were people who are. hardcore raw foodists and. um. and there's also people who are hardcore. vegans and i was never any of those. things. so i think what we did you weren't the. hardcore part or you. you weren't. but you. like. what parts of your life were you're a.

vegan are you still a vegan do you eat. meat do you are you a vegetarian are you. raw. good question i don't. apply labels so none of those labels. would apply because it's male and female. that's i those i'm beyond those labels. myself as well. but i'm a. carnivore. most of the time. there you go it's the opposite of vegan. unfortunately but no judgment i think. that's a beautiful thing to be as vegan.

likewise i think that it's people who. are very adamantly one way or the other. i think that. after all my. years in this world and. in this world in general. and also consuming an enormous amount of. um. inputs and podcasts about health like i. love listening to different points of. view so i love when like somebody's. arguing vegan and then somebody's. arguing carnivore and like. or even with other issues i like.

listening to what other people you know. opposing sides assuming they're both you. know intelligent interesting sources. especially when they're. i love it when they're sort of really. testing that diet meaning they're. athletes or in some way really testing. it not just like vaguely saying what's. healthy or not for you. but like really what is life like under. this particular diet yeah and i think. that probably. everybody's different and so in the same. way that some people tolerate like some.

people. can't tolerate nightshades or some. people can't tolerate certain spices or. some people can't tolerate gluten or. some people thrive off of this or that. and. i've heard it said and discussed that. there's a great deal to sort of what. your body's used to what your ancestors. ate where you where. because it seems like the human body is. pretty adaptable so. you can adapt to eating a certain type. of a. food.

and. so that if you're you know if your. family comes from a certain part of the. world where certain things aren't grown. or or more meat is eaten or. because there's people who are vegan. their entire lives and they're. incredibly healthy and they thrive and. there's athletes and there's people like. rich roll who i like who's. vegan and an athlete but it might be. something where that's. that's working really well for him but. it wouldn't work well for somebody else. and i think there's also an element of. people who try these things.

and then feel really good. or feel really bad and they make a. conclusion based on that initial. period of time when it might be. something where it makes you feel really. good temporarily. but then over time you're going to be. depleted of certain things. and then we also live in a world where. like our soil is depleted and. there's a lot of processing that takes. out of foods a lot of things that we. need so. i just think that there's no. kind of one right answer you can look at.

it from just a health perspective and. then you can also look at it from like a. morality and ethics perspective and then. also like what's the impact on the. environment and all those things are. important and i think that i've watched. a lot of films and things and. for a while right after that i might. think oh my god i can't believe i ate. this thing last week and now i'm going. to go back to being 100 vegan because i. just watched this thing and it's fresh. in my mind and now i'm thinking about it. in a certain way but then over time that. sort of. fades. and then you start to get a bit more.

loose. and. for me. i. i will end up eating a lot of things. that. aren't vegan. usually in the context where i'm not. adding to the consumption of it so. um. like at rikers there was most of the. meat there was kind of weird and fake. but there was like a chicken. every. thursday and sunday there was um it was.

actual chicken like the leg was that the. most exciting thing for people. oh yeah oh and then the most fights. broke out on chicken day because it was. like heightened thursday and sunday said. yeah chicken day so. that was the the most uh real meat. you're getting is the chicken yeah a lot. of compressed or duck duck white white. or dark meat dark is the the leg in the. thigh. and it was cooked surprisingly well. and so i would always eat it i don't. know i mean yeah it's there and.

it's not. from a health perspective one could say. well that's probably the shittiest of. the shitty chickens that are full of. antibiotics and hormones and terrible. things and. so it's not optimal from that point of. view. um. but. it's like if it's otherwise going to be. thrown in the trash then. yeah you're not adding to it right or. you know like i've been drunk at a party. and. eaten a bunch of stuff that one would. think i would never eat yeah but it's. not like i ran to the store and bought.

it or went to a restaurant or same. liquor makes me eat things i shouldn't. be eating. oh yeah or or maybe should. well my life is caught as you wrote me. in the email life is complicated and. fascinating and and so was our decisions. when we're drunk. i actually am a big fan of 7-eleven. i go there sometimes late at night to. think about life and i'll eat. i'll eat whatever the stuff they have i. also think it's fascinating how our. bodies intuitively know.

what if you're like quiet enough. and you think about like what you're. craving yeah as long as it's not like. if you're craving like some processed. junky food that's probably something. that's not quite functional but if. you're crazy like sometimes i'll i'll. i'll be like. i must have avocado or like i'll want to. eat an entire parsley salad and then. it's happened i went through a phase. where. um. and here i'm like do i say this out loud. i went through a phase of are you gonna.

say it where i was i know now i have to. say it. um. where. i couldn't get enough. um i don't know where it started like. whose house i was at or whatever but. grass-fed butter i just i was like i. could tell that my body wanted whatever. was there yeah and so. i suppose i could have investigated it. and thought like well what's in there is. it like vitamin k vitamin d what is it. in the grass fed butter because it. wasn't regular but like regular butter. ew no but like this grass-fed butter. like i felt like i just wanted i needed.

it so there's probably something in. there and maybe i could have gone and. just taken a lot of vitamin k and then. not eaten the butter but. um but there is something in there. that's fascinating i had that last night. actually with um. i went to grocer grocery store and i had. i had a craving for tomatoes. i was like what the hell is this. like what i don't know right so i think. it's weird you should listen to that and. then just get a bunch of tomatoes. because it's probably something in there. it was like. it felt right when i was little my.

mother no but that that's exactly what i. was saying is that somehow your body. knows without you knowing and today i. have zero interest in tomatoes yeah did. you eat the tomatoes though yeah okay. well then you probably i ate way too. many but that's all right. or maybe not enough. there you go see what you were saying. anyway i think these things like shift. and change and there's not like a right. answer and then there's something where. it's like one person might do well on. something another person doesn't or you. might do well on something for like i.

might you know maybe if i ate a bunch of. liver i'd feel better because i'm. getting. vitamins that i don't that i that i'm. lacking. but then once i get them i'm fine and i. don't need that anymore and i could. potentially get those from other sources. or. um. but yeah when i was little i used to. crave my mother said i craved um not. craved but she said i would always eat. sardines but i wouldn't eat the pieces i. would only eat the whole ones which have.

the bones in them and i used to chew on. chicken bones and try to eat eggshells. when i was like a top like little so i. think all of those things have um. calcium and other minerals and commons. there's probably something there that i. needed because you'd think as a little. kid i wouldn't be drawn to oily fish. and bones and eggshells yeah it's. interesting because like you're saying. the explanation for the craving is. probably the nutrients you're getting. but when you're imagining the craving. you're not obviously imagining the.

nutrients you're imagining the texture. the taste. the feel the i mean a lot of the things. that we actually experience as we're. eating that's our brain probably. tricking us right but do you love. tomatoes. well um. i think we determined that love is. impossible to define. so. are you extremely fond of do you think. tomatoes are like one of the most. delicious foods no no but maybe but yet. you crave them maybe it's generational. because it's a big russian thing with.

potatoes and tomatoes and. because it's good with vodka right. salted. uh we were talking about the menu and. the early days of the restaurant. in new york so what was on the menu what. was what kind of foods were you playing. with. do you remember. um. was that one of the challenging things. is putting together because you're. you're like crafting a new thing. in new york where it's extremely. competitive but over time it got easier.

and easier and then also i had you know. it was i wasn't coming up with new. dishes it was the people that work there. so i feel like if i could take credit. for something it would be recognizing. talent. and. um. you know and when dishes were developed. this is when i was there on my own so i. it was opened with matthew and jeffrey. and then um within a year matthew was. out. um and jeffrey was still involved as. like the you know the corporate sort of. side of it but then over time.

um i separated from that infrastructure. as well and then was completely on my. own. and part i did that because i was. growing one lucky duck on the side and. that was growing and growing and growing. and i knew there was something there. and yet the two businesses were. completely intertwined and so um. potential investors would come at me and. they would see this very messy situation. where i owned one lucky duck and jeffrey. chatter owned the restaurant and how do. we move forward from there and then.

people would say i should shut down the. restaurant and just focus on one lucky. duck and i wanted them all to be. together under one umbrella and to move. forward where everybody's incentives. were aligned and. what was the magic why was it so. successful so quickly would you say. i want to half jokingly but not joking. but sort of say that it was about the. the love and the food and the space. uh can you define love but. it's it's there was something special so.

i always when people ask me about. opening a restaurant i say i don't want. to get back into the restaurant business. unless it's the same restaurant in the. same space. because there was something about that. space. that felt. um. i guess felt magical for lack of a. better word and. the energy of a lot of the people there. and. i think that people really cared about. it and so. for whatever reason it just there was an. energy about the place would you ever do. it again yes you ever consider it.

uh. that's a tough thing in new york but. you're thinking. okay well it's there it's there. let me ask you this question. because i've been searching for that. myself like asking myself this question. if i you know the last meal question. like what's. the best meal you've ever eaten in your. life like if you had if i had to murder. you at the end of this and you get one. meal but you can travel anywhere in the.

world. um what would you what would you eat. it's one of those questions where i feel. like it i should have an answer prepared. no it's too it's too difficult to sort. of pick favorites. but. if somebody would you know force you to. choose. i was eating something once and i had. the thought. that if i was going to die. this i would come here and order plate. after plate of this and eat this do you. remember what it was yes some diner in.

the middle of nowhere no it was um pure. food and wine was on irving place and. then. and then the the kitchen connected to. the one lucky duck juice bar which had. an entrance on 17th street so it's kind. of like this l shape and then there was. a huge garden in the back on the corner. was casimono and barhamon. which was mario batali and joe. bastianich. were behind that and it was very focused. on. meat but also like organ meats and. strange unusual finished restaurant wow.

lots of good reviews yeah it was really. good. um. this is just a funny that we surrounded. it but barhamon was um. was it this tiny little bar. and i went in there once with tobin. late. and. i don't know why we ended up going there. but it was right before they closed. and drank red wine and they had tomato. bread. and it's just. like a. baguette although it's a spanish. whatever it's like a bread like a.

baguette like a thin. that they toast and i think they rub it. with garlic and they don't even put. tomato slices on it it's like they. rub it and the tomato juices all over it. it was just bread and tomato juice and. probably some garlic flavor and really. good salt. and with some wine and red wine and we. sat there and ordered a plate ate it. ordered another one ate it or another. one i think we had like six plates and i. remember sitting there thinking. i could just eat this until my stomach.

bursts and then and so if this is like. if somebody was like. what's the last. i would just want to sit there and eat. plate after plate i think if you went. back there and ate the same thing it. wouldn't taste nearly as good like was. there something magical about that night. about. the way that bread was made in that. night. the way you felt at that night the wine. the. something or do you think. like where's the power from that food.

come from is it the food itself. or is it the environment. i'm sure it's both but. like if somebody brought a plate of it. here right now it would be completely. delicious. yeah but it might not feel as kind of. that it felt magical but it was the. whole. warmth of the experience and. and the red wine and see how i'm doing. in texas right now so it's different and. if i keep forgetting and thinking it's. late at night. yeah we're surrounded by.

this is this whole place is. anti-huberman there's no light. uh well it's it's pro-huberman if it's. in the afternoon or the evening. except for these bright lights. if they were lower down. if they were like down below then. they're hitting the tops of our eyes but. it's the light coming from above that's. destructive at night because it's. hitting the bottom of your eyes so it's. like mimicking the sun. which is signaling your body that it's. time to be awake. so. as much as possible so i do this in the.

evenings i shut off all the overhead. lights i try to dim the lights as much. as i can and and i turn on like a lamp. versus an overhead light. are you also doing the caffeine thing. like not. not consuming much caffeine way before. bed. oh i can't yeah i usually. don't have caffeine. late i try not to have it so. ideally i would drink into the night. cafe 2 pm would be my last i wouldn't. ideally i wouldn't drink coffee after. two but plenty of times i do.

especially if i haven't had midday. coffee then i worry i'm gonna get a. headache that makes you way more. responsible than me let me return to. love. what do you think makes for a good. romantic relationship. given your experience. i mean this question i think a mutual. respect is a big part of it. mutual respect. that's interesting well and.

understanding it in a way that you want. what's best for the other person not in. a way that you would sacrifice yourself. for them necessarily. but. in a very healthy way. so i think a healthy relationship is. where you know you want what's best for. the other person so i always find it. tragic. um. like say. you started dating somebody who then. would get jealous or upset if you spent. too much time working on something.

right and but but that's like your life. so if you're working on. some robotics thing and you're having. some breakthrough and so you just want. to spend a lot of time. wherever you spend a lot of time doing. those things and then that other person. got all bent out of shape and it became. like a competition that to me seems very. unhealthy because if somebody. if it was. if it was like a genuine. healthy love. she would want you to.

be doing those things. yeah that's a good observation but. to me i think the way to achieve that. is actually or the easiest way to. achieve at least for me is actually. legitimately be excited by. the things the other person is excited. by. so like. not in some generic sense it's good for. them to be doing the robotics thing. like it's more like. you become a fan of all the cool things.

that they're doing in their life so like. i i definitely have this i somebody told. me recently there's a term for this but. i love. like. watching other people. like um succeed. be excited about shit. like i like celebrating other people. like it's fun for me to watch people do. the thing they love doing so like i you. know in some sense. that's reinvigorating to me and exciting. to me and so.

one of the things for me in a. relationship is like. you get excited by watching another. person do the thing they're excited. about it's not like i intellectually. know it's good for them to have their. own thing and they you know. it's like i legit get excited by. their own thing because otherwise that's. what i mean it's like. that person would be excited because. you're excited yeah and but they would i. think the easiest way to achieve that is. actually be like. what am i trying to it's like it's not. like saying that you should be.

excited it's like you i can't help. yourself but be excited that's why right. but i think that's possible but. it's possible for that to be the case. for somebody that. like. might have an appreciation for what. you're doing but isn't like that's not. what that person's gonna go spend their. time. on them yeah they were by themselves. yeah right so they might the other. person might you know. be really good at a musical instrument. that requires a lot of practice and.

you're not interested in playing that. musical instrument but you appreciate. the beauty of the music and understand. that that person is getting something. out of it so you would be excited when. they get a chance to practice or or. whatnot you know so it's. that kind of a do you think. loves should be simple or complicated. in a relationship. well it might be inherently complicated. i think i i may have asked huberman the. exact same question. forget what he said. i thought it was interesting when you. asked elon about love.

oh boy yeah he that that's a. that's that's that's gonna be. conversation number like seven that he. actually answers it. well what was interesting. that i found admirable was this sort of. like a duty to humanity. i think you asked about it not in a. about person but about the work. and so it was like it was like a to do. to put all this. energy to try to kind of like move.

things forward knowing that he will. probably die before it gets there you're. talking about like a something related. to the science of. rocketry. yeah. right he's kind of a rocket scientist. but whatever. you were asking him about whether. something could be accomplished and he. said yes but not in his lifetime but. he's going to keep pushing it forward. anyway so i felt like that was a really. you know. to put so much of yourself into. something just to kind of move the baton.

forward for humanity it was a. struck me as an admirable. thing you know where there's no. great reward in in terms of. you're gonna. you know you're gonna see that invention. happen or you're gonna see mars. colonized or whatever it is. but you'll you'll you're willing to put. in all the work and brainpower to try to. push it along. like thinking about the biggest possible. impact on the world. just thinking about humanity i think all. of us when we do cool things are. contributing to humanity and it's it's.

good to think of it that way when you. run a restaurant and you make all the. people happy. i don't know that's part of that it's. good to think. big like that and elon does definitely. but when i asked them about love. i'm you know just knowing him personally. now. i'm asking about. the personal question about love but i'm. giving him the freedom to escape it. which he he always does that's very. generous.

because i don't want to trap him i i. understand it's it's a difficult. so you know he's better at solving. engineering problems than talking about. love. uh the other thing he's really good at. is um going to the joke so for him. um. you know. for him love and all those kinds of. things especially those kind of cliche. sounding things. are. are are the stuff of memes it's the. stuff.

the easiest way you can talk about it is. humor the same with trauma like personal. trauma easiest stuff for him to talk. about is the it's taken. his laugh about it he has he's been very. tough uh privately or on podcast to talk. about personal like. difficult stuff and for me obviously. that's often the most interesting stuff. as humans like. where's your darkness. you know but. uh for him it's tough for a lot of. people it's tough but it's important to.

go there. maybe maybe first in the privacy of your. own mind. and i think you know bringing it back to. the relationship thing is wanting to um. like understand and accept. those things about somebody else i mean. sort of cliche to say that you can't. change somebody. um. and you don't want to also like try to. change yourself for somebody but you can. sort of figure things out and be willing. to. make adjustments and.

navigate for the sake of something. working. and sometimes that comes from. understanding and which. might require a lot of effort. and yeah open-mindedness if somebody's. kind of very different from you. yeah and being uh being fragile yourself. revealing your flaws and getting to. learn about theirs and getting to see. the beauty in them. because that's the good stuff. or if if if the flaws are too much of a.

red flag then you walk away that's the. hard stuff you either the red flags. might be the thing that you actually get. to love deeply because they're a flawed. human or it might be the reason to walk. away quickly. and you don't know. it's it's although if it's like if it's. a if it's a red flag then it by. definition is something that's telling. you to walk away if it was just like. something about their character that's. challenging. you could appreciate that. or understand it.

but it's not something that like they're. intentionally trying to use to deceive. you i think red flags it's like. i guess it's more about like. manipulation and or like somebody's kind. of extreme dysfunction or something. would be red flags but i think there. could be things that. are. quirky or weird or. even dark about somebody. um that are acceptable yeah but they. might look like red flags if if there's.

a. if there's someone crying on on the. subway that's a red flag for me that she. might be like an emotional basketball. yeah this is a high maintenance crazy. person yeah yeah. that's true but you know it could also. be there could be a deeper story to it. so that's what i'm trying to tell you. that's true. all right. what advice would you give. to young folks today if they want to. launch a restaurant in new york city. and then message somebody on twitter. i was before you finished the sentence i.

was about to say read a lot of books. but then you then because you said what. advice would you give to young people. today and i was like read a lot of books. yeah and then you got to the restaurant. part yeah. oh no i mean that's i was joking about. the restaurant i said yeah about life i. would say uh not just about a. career as a restaurateur. but. just in life how to be successful how to. be. how to live a life that can be. fulfilling and how to live a life they. can be proud of.

i read a lot of books it's complicated. because have you figured it out yet no. but. i think self-awareness is key but i also. think. there's some of those things where like. people kind of have to learn their own. lessons. but. i think in part because i never had kids. and i never wanted kids i feel like. through my book i keep thinking that i. want a lot of the lessons that i learned. to be.

useful to other people particularly. younger people. and in many cases younger females. to maybe understand themselves a little. better along the way because i think. that you know a lot of mistakes that i. made and things that happened. or things that i did that i'm. embarrassed about. um. or things that i stepped into that i. wouldn't have otherwise stepped into or. allowed to happen. were a result of. in many cases.

like. insecurity. um like a lack of confidence. and um and i think in the context of. moving forward with. relationships. being really careful to understand why. you're there or if you're repeating a. pattern that's something that. is sort of cliche but i feel like it's. very i mean art cliche. cliches are things that are true they're. just repeated a lot but they're.

but anyway. the idea that people repeat patterns. right yes so. i think that's very true. right. and so to be aware of that and to figure. it out sooner rather than later so you. don't keep stepping into the same. thing over and over again you mentioned. sort of giving yourself. time and space to think. yeah which sometimes isn't possible but. don't let momentum of life sort of carry. you away right and i think for me one of.

the things that would have scared me. about having kids is the chaos of it. um or not being able to handle it but i. think that's like that's just me not. most people. you ran a restaurant i know. which is probably why i would go home at. night and lie on the floor and cry. or how often do you do that. um what's. do you like a good cry. i do. music usually or. what can we can you paint the scene what.

and just in general yeah is there. candles i cried this morning okay not. intentionally not fabulous or just. overwhelmed. it was like a. you know i looked a little bit at. instagram. and saw. what was it. very often they're like. like these little animal rescue stories. or whatever but this is a this guy matt. who used to be my trainer years ago. and put this little montage video to. music that was interesting if there.

hadn't been music i probably wouldn't. have cried but it was um showing his. wife. having their second child not. not showing it but like the sort of. before and then you know the baby in her. arms right afterwards and then bringing. the baby home it was this very short. little clip. but set to music yeah and i watched that. and started to cry. but like it's not i didn't sob or. anything so. i think i cry easily um. interestingly.

though. in actual. horrifically tragic things. or when they apply to me i might not cry. and then people find that unusual and. that was in the film that. i was my sister my father described that. when my parents got divorced i didn't i. didn't cry and i just whereas my sister. bawled her eyes out and i i didn't cry. at all ever and i just. didn't say anything i want to talk about. it um. and um. you know like when i was sentenced to. jail i didn't cry.

um. so a lot of times when something really. big happens i get a little bit weirdly. um. i don't know but i. very often too much to feel it all. directly so you kind of cry it out later. slowly. right maybe years later maybe years. later yeah maybe that's what i'm really. crying about when i cry at these little. videos or something yeah i don't know. but i'm glad for it because i feel like.

it always feels like kind of a relief. well let me ask this because it's. interesting what you would say. do you have regrets. about. things in your life. like what do you regret if there's a one. day you could live. again. or which day would you pick. like relive and make different choices. um well. like one obvious thing could be the day.

that i let anthony strange is in the. door if i'd instead you know if at any. time early on i instead just pushed him. out you know that my life would be. wildly different. um. it's hard to. so that's the biggest mistake of your. life i would say just. letting. anthony to your life i think yes i think. one could argue that's the biggest. mistake but then at the same time you. never know because. like.

when i um. i was in a sort of a dark relationship. that then led to. the restaurant am i having the one lucky. duck brand. so i felt like. that darkness. it's like if you married a horribly. abusive person but you had a beautiful. child and then you go on and you have. this beautiful child and you think well. if i hadn't been with that horribly. abusive person i wouldn't have this. beautiful child so i wouldn't go undo it. so i feel like a lot of things are like. that. and i guess i could optimistically hope. that.

there are good things down the road. where i'll think well i'm here and i'm. appreciate i'm grateful for it and. therefore i'm grateful for the things. that got me here which include a lot of. dark things. it's hard to say because a lot of people. were hurt in my case but i. am optimistic that i can make those. things up and. there also hurts that were. um i mean in some cases emotionally but. also. very much financial and i feel like. those are. numbers and the.

um employees were all paid back so. anybody else that. is out money because of everything that. happened. isn't somebody that's like not able to. um. you know. feed themselves everybody most of those. people have plenty of money and it's. like not a big deal but i still want to. repay all of it. um. and it's numbers it's not. um. you know like nobody died and. sometimes when i think about my own. challenges. um they feel sort of inconsequential in.

comparison to other things going on in. the world. so. um. you know like. yes it's hard being humiliated or it's. hard to have people say nasty things. about you on. twitter instagram but really who cares. because that's just words and things and. i'm not like fleeing my home and. watching people get. shot so and they're still. out of this darkness are.

out of this you can still that you still. have a lot of time to create something. beautiful in the world. yeah maybe something even more beautiful. than you've ever done before i am. optimistic and i also feel like. you know part of the reason i like. having these conversations because i. feel like people. will. learn stuff from my. shitty experiences to avoid. going through their own shitty. experience and i've heard. a ton of that from. a lot of women and some men um.

you know writing to me saying that they. went through something similar and. nobody understood and. you know my story help them or. um. you know might help them get somebody. else out of a situation. so making it useful feels good. so through all of this. leon was with you. he uh recently had a birthday. march i guess yes 12. yeah i made him a. phenomenal. meat cake or a a layered.

cake that involved. a variety of animal foods he's not a. vegetarian no he's not okay but i also. give him like really high quality stuff. but yeah he's not a vegan a vegetarian. let me ask you a hard question. do you think about the tragic fact that. dogs live much shorter. lives than us humans. do you think about. his mortality. all the time i kind of try not to but. all the time because he told me.

in traveling here. to austin texas. you're. not in the habit of leaving leon. by himself. uh well he's not by himself but i no i. haven't been away from him. in. certainly since before. covid. um. so i'm not used to it and so. i people always say that dogs have um.

like that dogs have attachment issues or. get separation anxiety but. in my case at least it's like i think. he's fine i'm the one that. is you know he's like fine i'm the one. that gets anxious about it. um being away from him. you're the one who acts like a dog when. you say you come back and you're super. excited to see him yeah i can have. people. be on the floor and wiggle your tail and. drool and all that kind of stuff but do. you think about the fact you know that. you might lose leon soon.

i do i think about it all i mean i i try. not to think about it but i'm scared and. i um yeah it's scary but then i also. just try to understand that it's. inevitable and um. i mean. yeah. assuming i'm still around. then um. that's i think one of the things about. having adopting a dog or getting or. caring for an animal unless it's one of. those animals that lives a really long. time i just found out that parrots live.

an extraordinarily long time. um but they're annoying. so you get it's a trade-off. the ones we love live a short time the. ones that enjoy. right live a long time so i just think. it's one of those things. that. you just know what's gonna happen and. it's just part of life and i think it's. one of those. pains that's. it's painful but you just kind of have. to go through it um. and what's the alternative you're not. gonna. it's like saying you would never want to.

fall in love because of the heartbreak. that's gonna inevitably come yeah so. some people do that they just avoid. exactly ever you're saying screw it i'm. diving right in yes it was all worth it. what about your own mortality you think. about yourself dying less so than i was. before. um. i think i i wrote about that and i put. this letter dear mr fox online which i. never intended to do but i did because. of all the. misconceptions about the film and our in.

our relationship and so i put this thing. up online that i'd written. on my phone. on multiple subway rides. and at the end of it i talk about. because especially then when like it was. the height of everything was gone. and you know what do i have to live for. i sort of. noticed and wrote about how differently. i felt about things whereas i used to be. afraid. i used to have like a healthy fear of. you know being pushed in front of a. train because that happens you know in. new york or anywhere or.

you know i had a healthy fear of. like i don't know walking down a dark. street at night but. i noticed that at the time. i didn't really have those fears because. i was like yeah what do i like what do i. have to lose like who cares you know i'm. i don't have anything anymore what i. have to lose so. i certainly feel much less that way. but something about those feelings. lingered where i'm less afraid of it. or more just.

less afraid of it but hoping it's not. some sort of a gruesome way. i mean some people are really afraid of. flying and i feel like well. statistically it's extremely safe and if. it's going to happen it's going to. happen there's nothing you can do. like there's really nothing you can do. unless you're gonna like. do what that guy and that small plane. did the other day and like leap over and. was able to take control of the plane. but i mean like a commercial flight. so it's like if you're gonna die you're. gonna die and it's just your time and. all you can do is hope that.

i would i would probably prefer to have. as little awareness about it as possible. you know it's like if you'd rather have. somebody. if you're gonna get shot you'd rather. have somebody shoot you in the back of. the head and you didn't see it coming. and just boom lights out versus. somebody holding a gun to your head and. then you're gonna feel all this fear. um and have to like feel all of that. which also made me think of. um. you know animals and animals suffering.

in the way that some people. argue that. because of the conditions and the fear. that that's like. that's like in their bodies when they're. killed which is an interesting thing to. think about. um. yeah i clearly struggle with the ethics. of. i just. i think about it a lot. about. um.

you know like our current food system. which involves. uh a system that everybody has sort of. accepted and normalized where. um. like say aliens did come down. yeah and. looked at us. and realized that were a particularly. good source of whatever fuel they need. so then they. imprisoned us all. in. cages that were like the equivalent of. like sardines and jammed in an elevator.

and then. we were bred. and. we would get sick and we'd go crazy and. we'd do the equivalent of like pecking. and then we'd get abused and then. like grotesquely and brutally killed and. that was like our entire lives and so. if like aliens came down and. started and did all of that. we would have to be okay with that. which is something that.

my um. was said to me after watching this movie. called our daily bread many years ago. um but it's an interesting way to think. about it because. i mean we would have to be okay with it. because that's kind of what we're doing. now. right yeah we've normalized certain. kinds of cruelty and i don't people. think yeah people think that like i. would object to. hunting. uh hunting for sport i think is. grotesque.

but if you're. hunting and then. you're gonna eat the entire animal. and you're hunting in a way where it's. kind of like. you know that that animal like lived a. free and happy life until that moment in. the same way that the animal lived a. free and happy moment. lived a free and happy. life or we don't know maybe they were. depressed but. they lived a free life until. like the lion came and took it down. so. is a human.

shooting an animal for food somehow more. tragic or horrible than a lion attacking. an elk. yeah well so. there's a lot of complexities to it on. top of all of that so one you said. so hunting for sport is bad but there's. this like complex ethical equation of. the fact that hunting for sport is the. thing that often funds the preservation. of a species. that's well no that's another. complicated layer there's like the um. maui venison. all the deer in hawaii.

and um. i might have gotten maui venison treats. for leon. um but they're. they're hunting those deer. is a way of preserving. the yeah so i mean these things are. complicated but that's why i don't have. a problem with. somebody. shooting an elk or bringing it home and. eating it like my. um you know like i've eaten elk jerky. and things like that from that's one of. those situations where like i wouldn't.

morally have a problem with it and for. me it's also i'm not one of those people. where i think. like you i wouldn't eat meat it's more. like i don't want to add to the. consumption of it and i wouldn't want to. eat sort of like the factory farmed. meat. necessarily unless i'm in prison and. it's otherwise going to get thrown away. but. uh hashtag uh a lot of a lot of things. you know. you know you make.

do things differently there but yeah um. so you know it's just these things are. complicated but. so it's not about like you i don't want. that in my body it's sort of like what. where did it come from and and what's. going on here and. um. i think that. like if you just followed joe rogan's. instagram. there's sort of a bit of a glorification. of meat that. because i listened to enough that i.

heard the one where he talked there was. a recent one where he's talking about. anthony bourdain and in that. conversation i think it was that one he. explained that. he sort of did it in summary so i feel. like he talked about it in the past but. did all this research. and came to the conclusion. based on all his research came to the. conclusion that he was either going to. be vegetarian or. shoot his own. meat yeah and hunt and so. that that's totally different that's. something i mean that's very like. admirable.

i think and he has the means to do it. but but if you not only that but he does. it with a bow. right even more so so it is a good. question it's. it's a good question how we uh. get out of this factory right. because i do like i i like i like meat i. think it's delicious i i we're dependent. on the not just. uh on the. the nutrients and the taste we're also. dependent on the cost.

a lot of people have gotten used to a. particular kind of cost that they pay. for. meat. right but i think if we wiped out all. the. government subsidies it would be a. completely different story because why. why are vegetables so expensive. and. subsidizing some tomatoes yesterday i'm. i'm protesting why is salad so expensive. right but none of the the if you. if you look at the subsidies that are. given to. um the all of the inputs to the meat.

industry like the grain and soy and. whatnot. and then to the meat and dairy. industries and all the subsidies that. prop up those industries and allow those. products to be cheap and and. sustainable from a business perspective. not environmental. it's government subsidies so what if we. took all that away. and then also what if we gave that to. um you know the the kale and hemp and. fresh greens.

farmers. then and made those foods more. affordable. and then had meat reflect its actual. true cost. then you know then people would just eat. more vegetables and less meat because of. the cost. you mentioned that you crossed off one. item from your list i forget what the. item was but. um oh it was. i had previously thought that i would. want to go to vegas one day just to. cross that off my list it's not like. i was like ooh one day i want to go to. vegas it was just like i imagined i.

would only go there once just to see it. and then. be done with it. yeah. yeah. that's a good one that's a good one and. i i still think you can do it because. there's a particular vegas experience. that's worth having and there's maybe a. couple of vegas experiences that are. worth having i find casinos horribly. depressing. because i think they're just predatory. everything about them is predatory not. it's not it's not the casinos that are. important it's the people culture and.

the whole the people crazy the people. you meet the people you meet in the. chaos that is las vegas can create. a memorable experience. you lose track of what is. what is day what is night. you can get drunk and make all the. mistakes. that somehow create a beautiful. masterpiece at the end of it. that's for another time what else is on. the bucket list what items on the bucket. list you haven't done yet. you really really would like we talked. about mortality.

that that there's a finite deadline. what pops in your head is something that. you want us to do. what i want is to not die and owe people. money. so so whatever mistakes you make i wanna. i wanna live to write those things and i. also felt really strongly about. my. what i'd. what i and everybody in the business had. built. and. um.

so. a big part of me wants to. um. resurrect the brand. because when i i felt really strongly. about it like i had that feeling that. this was. this was going to be a thing that i i. wanted to build and grow and could have. a really positive impact and outlast me. and um would you bring it back as the. same name. yeah well i i put the logo on my arm. that's kind of how strongly i felt about. it and so.

when i did that and around that time and. all of that time i felt. really really strongly that um. quietly. because it feels like. a little bit bold. but quietly felt. really almost with a certainty that it. was going to be something really big and. it was growing and growing. and all signs were pointing towards. there i was just sort of stalled and. couldn't figure out the logistics.

and then enter mr fox. so the universe can be quite. absurdly cruel at times. but yeah. but that that is something uh. that's something worth reaching for is. repay the debts of the past. and then people have said to me that. leon achieved some kind of immortality. via. being in the documentary. and then i might i don't understand this.

world at all but i might do like an nft. thing. related to leon's image which would be. another way of. kind of immortalizing his image at least. yeah. but that's a um. i mean it's a. potentially in progress. kind of a crazy leap but and potentially. relaunching the restaurant. possibly yes. there's a restaurant and there's one. lucky duck in that brand and they're.

sort of. separate but related. um and. they could each exist independently i. liked it better when they. existed together because i felt like. they were very complementary in a lot of. ways and they made sense together but. either one could be done separately. without the other. do you think you will find love again. given. the chaos yet to go through. um. i have and i never talk about it i've.

never. talked about it you have fallen love. again. yes. but also in a kind of. possibly doomed temporary way. which. you don't like it simple do you. it's not that it's not simple it's. actually quite simple it's just that. again there's a large age gap. i am the older one. which in itself isn't a problem because. again i wouldn't.

i wouldn't want to. like if somebody wanted kids and a. family i wouldn't want to hold them back. from that and. so if i sort of wanted to be with. somebody who wanted those things. i. even if i was completely in love with. somebody i would have to kind of like. you know. hurt. endure the pain to be like no i'm gonna. keep you from those things so you should. go do those things so that's that's the. source of.

the temporariness. no. it's a bit related to. like logistics and. living one place and having it like. extremely different lifestyles is this a. prince of some sort. no. does he have a castle. um. no okay all right no no you're gonna say. who it is or we're gonna keep that a. mystery. i don't on the one hand like i feel like.

it's a. it's protective for me to talk about it. in some ways. but. i also worry because. very often i avoid. saying anything because for a lot of. reasons but. one being that people freak out and just. assume that i'm gonna step into. something horrible again because i did. step into something. horribly destructive again after mr fox. and. what happened was i allowed something to. happen and so.

going back to that what advice would you. give to people i would. i would tell people to be very careful. to be deliberate about. who they're getting involved with. and thoughtful about it and making sure. that they're not just allowing something. to happen so it's like. you know. men. can sometimes be and i suppose women can. be as well but people can be very. persistent. sometimes that's a good thing but it. could also be a dangerous thing because. sometimes somebody might just and this.

has happened to me a lot where somebody. just wears you down and you're like ugh. fine you know. um. that's funny and yeah yeah no i mean but. it works it's shockingly like the things. that i've done in the spirit of like or. not wanting to hurt somebody's feelings. that's another that's another dangerous. be nice let's get married just to be. nice that's another dangerous thing and. also maybe he's just i feel like i'm. like circling back to all these. unanswered questions from before but. um i didn't marry i married.

i married him he like convinced me to. marry him. in this very quick annoying way and as. if it was like something i had to do and. i'd be protected and all kinds of weird. reasons and it was just. like my response to my my agreeing to. marry him was like ugh. fine yeah and and then i remember being. embarrassed at city hall. going to get the license. you know people who are in love and. wanting to get married aren't sitting in.

city hall mortified and embarrassed you. know so yeah but so it was so i sort of. cringe when people call him my. ex-husband because i don't think of him. that way it's sort of. is even though. technically that's correct yeah but. there's a there's a powerful romantic. notion to the thing and do those words. and that that had nothing to do with you. getting married it was more. it was just like another thing that he. made me do like a chore that just had. you know unfortunate consequences of. like. then having to get divorced in the whole.

yeah i think i think even weddings are. romantic like um the whole the cheesy. thing there's. you know. yeah they are those are cool uh i agree. we don't get many many of those in life. um well you know what let's keep it a. mystery. let's keep the person a mystery. uh to be continued. season two. conversations with some like a known. person or anything but i feel like. people always worry that.

i'm stepping back into something and i. don't have the energy to be certain. should they be defensive and no there. you go don't worry friends no and also. just. remember that thing i was saying about. how like it's good if you get to know. somebody really slowly over a long. period of time yeah it's kind of one of. those situations. so i feel very confident that i'm like. certain it's i'm not stepping into. something where i'm gonna be surprised. and somebody turns out to be not who. they presented themselves to be so it's.

that wise way to do it. especially for. me yeah and also again it's like i would. i would i would caution people to be. careful about. um. you know wanting to go into something. deliberately versus. kind of getting caught up in something. and or rushed or that said. i would i would suggest people take that. cautionary advice but uh you know. sometimes you just fall in love. yeah love at first sight is a thing.

there are those stories of. you know sweet stories of older people. that i don't know. you can get hurt for it too but. don't don't. listen to your heart. this was an incredible conversation. uh. we talked for way over four hours we did. yeah. and uh. yeah i feel like i can keep talking to. you this was amazing uh summer thank you. so much for being honest for. for. being fearless in answering all the.

questions. all the difficult questions. and thank you for trying to create. something special with your restaurant. and. maybe create something special still in. your future. yeah i hope so thank you for. having me i kept thinking um. i kept thinking that like i was gonna. get a message that was like just kidding. i just i've listened to your podcast a. lot and so i've.

certainly felt very intimidated knowing. who's. sat if not in this actual chair in this. chair in another location or maybe here. very are you nervous. yes. and um. yeah i was nervous too yeah but at the. same but also because i've because i. know the way that you speak in your. style i felt like it was gonna feel like. a good natural conversation as opposed. to sometimes you have conversations. where it's like. anyway.

so i didn't feel nervous because of like. what i was walking into i felt nervous. that i was gonna you know sound stupid. and boring and everybody would be like. why did he interview her like it was. exciting you happy with it how do we do. yeah i think so. very often after are you self-critical. after stuff. yes when you go home tonight are you. gonna be like. happy with yourself or not. i mean i feel good i don't feel like i.

can't think of anything that i said that. i regret maybe there's things that you. know somebody's gonna yell at me because. i said something that i said like meat. is good or something or i don't you know. i guess. like vegan judgment yes. um yes but i think it's more useful to. be honest about the contradictions and. conflicting feelings because i feel like. that's what most people have and so if. you want to help people. shift a certain way yeah you were raw. honest. it was beautiful it was beautiful to.

watch. thank you for the books. your darkness today was visible. but the beauty too it was it was an. amazing conversation um. i'm i'm really really happy with it i'm. honored that you sit down with me that. was awesome. i'm. floored that you're honored and i'm. honored that you asked me to be here so. thank you sarah. thanks for listening to this. conversation with sarma melangalis to. support this podcast please check out.

our sponsors in the description. and now let me leave you with some words. from playwright august wilson. confront the dark parts of yourself. and work to banish them with. illumination and forgiveness. your willingness to wrestle with your. demons will cause your angels to sing. thank you for listening and hope to see. you next time.