Ryan Hall: Solving Martial Arts from First Principles | Lex Fridman Podcast #169

the following is a conversation with. ryan hall his second time in the podcast. he's one of the most innovative scholars. of martial arts. in the modern era quick mention of our. sponsors. indeed hiring website audible audiobooks. expressvpn and element electrolyte drink. click the sponsor links to get a. discount and to support this podcast. as a side note let me say that i've. gotten a chance to train with ryan. recently. and to both discuss and try out on the. mat his ideas about grappling and.

fighting. what struck me is his unapologetic drive. to solve. martial arts it reminds me of the. ambitious vision and effort of google's. deep mind. to solve intelligence in ryan's case. this isn't some out there martial arts. guru talk. this is a style of thinking about the. game of human chess. of seeking to define the rules and to. engineer ways. from first principles of escaping the. constraints of those rules. this style of thinking is rare but is.

ultimately the one. that leads to the discovery of new. revolutionary ideas. if you enjoy this podcast subscribe to. it anywhere or connect with me. lex friedman and now here's my. conversation. with ryan hall you're known as. a systems thinker in martial arts but. you. also i think are willing to think. outside the rules of the game outside of. the system. when you're thinking about strategies of.

how to you know solve the problem. particular problem of an opponent. whether that's. jiu jitsu or in mixed martial arts. what's your process for doing that. for figuring out that puzzle i would say. i don't know if i have a specific. like a to b to c process for that sort. of thing i try to do my best to uh. appreciate that i think a lot of the. thinking um or. maybe not all the things but a lot of. great thinking on. conflict on battle on war on martial.

arts has been done already. um not that we don't have to do any sort. of uh background investigation or. reassessing of these ideas or axioms. that have come down through things like. the book of five rings or the art of war. or you know like von klosterwicz even. anything like that really. but is uh trying to understand. the the lessons of the past that i think. often times we we don't take with us. um problem solving we pay lip service. and like a. uh you know a victorious fighter uh the.

great fighter uh you know. he knows victory is there then he then. he seeks battle everyone else is looking. for victory. in battle yeah moving on and that's why. i'm going to double jab and throw my. left hand. and i think a lot of times our actions. don't reflect. our stated belief structure and i think. that oftentimes you can tell. what i believe really or what my. fundamental operating system is. based on my actions whether i'm aware i. have an operating system internally. whether i'm aware of it or not or. certainly whether i'm fully aware of it. so i guess uh when it comes to. strategy i try to think about how things.

interact you mentioned. systems thinking and i try to do my best. to understand how systems exist but i. think that. systems have a fundamental strength and. a fundamental weakness. they work how they work and that's great. but they're. readable so if you are aware if i am. operating on a system. of which you're you're not really read. into then i think oftentimes i can seem. like. shockingly effective particularly if my. system preys on certain weaknesses. uh that that maybe you are uh you're.

given to. but what happens when you've read the. same books that i have. i think that a lot of times that makes. me deeply predictable i think about. systems in jiu jitsu. you know and uh a lot of times people. think that they're doing jiu jitsu when. in reality they are doing an expression. of it let's say i'll use there's the. marcelo garcia system. there is the uh henzo gracie current. henzo race system there's the old gracie. baja one there's a. you know the gracie academy classic. crazy jiu jitsu there's the.

art of jiu jitsu um you know kind of. otto's approach and you know there's. some crossover between a lot of these. but uh oftentimes i think um you know. when it comes to. understanding how i'm making decisions. and how my opponent is making decisions. i have to appreciate whether or not. i'm an end user of something and i'll. use my my phone as an example. i was thinking of this the other day and. as an end user of my phone i can't. i have no idea what it does you know. like edward snowden comes up and goes. hey guys you realize your phones are. listening to you from like.

really what yeah all right i believe you. and then of course that that comes out. but uh to what extent. i have no idea um what is my phone. capable of i have no idea i can mess. with the font though i really like blue. screens not purple screens. so like as an end user i can change some. of the bells and whistles that have. nothing to do with the underlying source. code of it all or how it functions the. same way my car. i'm an end-user of my car if i do this. with the steering wheel it goes if i. push on the gas. it goes um if i yeah i know how to fix. it when it's out of gas i know how to. fix it when it's out of oil.

and i know how to fix it you know when. uh when a flat tire comes but. short of that or actually beyond that i. have nothing so i think that oftentimes. um you know i've been around in jiu. jitsu long enough to encounter like a. new wave of like good grapplers. and it's very very interesting sometimes. how they're running systems they don't. realize they're running. like i'm like oh yeah i trained at. marcelo garcia's academy for a long time. you know and a big fan of marcellus was. a student there uh. encountered a lot of the the otto style. jiu jitsu a number of years ago.

uh been you know a very very you know. deep into foot locking and leg attacks. and whatnot for a long long time i. understand your system better than you. do or i may. and let's say you understand my system. better than i do that would be a huge. issue that was something that i. encountered a long time ago. trying to come up in jiu jitsu where i. was trying to utilize. systems that were. created by let's say hoffman mendes or. someone else and i'm basically trying to. do what you're doing i'm just not doing. as good of a version of it so not only. am i. not doing it well but i'm entirely.

predictable and i think that that can be. a big issue so. to come back i think of systems a lot of. times now in terms of you know. particularly like end user type of. systems like uh. an iphone is a really really fast way. for me to be able to do all sorts of. things. if you were to take it from me i. couldn't recreate any of that so you. want to be. more the nsa unless the end user exactly. exactly that way that way i'm listening. i'm going to be the idol. of combat that's right we're watching. you p but basically. you know it's uh i guess what i would. what i would come back and say is uh.

if you understand how things interact on. a fundamental level and what type of. games exist. and what type of interactions is this. then you can transcend a lot of the uh. the systems it's almost like a cook. versus if i can make certain things in. the kitchen i can. but i am not a chef you could give me a. bunch of ingredients and i. could probably cook not well but a. couple of different things. but a master chef you know would be. aware of the implications of all of the. things that they're doing. you know extra time in the oven less. time in the oven putting this you know.

flavoring or spice in. you know what you're doing with various. things and also they could make they. could turn all of these ingredients into. chinese food they could turn all these. ingredients into italian food and they. could turn all these italian food. ingredients. into chicken parmesan or it could turn. into lasagna but. they're not limited to a specific thing. because they have knowledge of how. food interacts how what it does to. create taste what it does create texture. so to come back let's take rock paper. scissors rock paper scissors is built on. the idea. of a couple different things actually. i'll tell you what can i you might have. may ask you a question.

yeah what's your favorite dinosaur on. the same on three we'll go. one two three t-rex t-rex i'll meet soon. man this is we're gonna be best friends. so uh it's. okay uh if so what's the first question. when you say hey let's play rock paper. scissors it's like is it rock paper. scissors or rock paper scissors shoot. and like rock paper scissors shoot. you're like okay because if we go. rock paper scissors shoot i'm like oh. man i got lucky. and i won imagine i won 100 times in a. row yeah.

i'd be luck give me luck if i was. honestly doing that. but now let's say for instance i go on. rock paper scissors and you go on shoot. rock paper scissors shoot. here comes the rock right if you lose. whose fault is it. it's yours this is built on a parody. thing where. i don't get to pick second if i get to. pick second. it's like being able to investigate your. background before going to meet you and. then i'm like oh hi. oh i too love the new jersey you know.

the new jersey nets which is a statement. that no one in their right mind would. ever make. when i was growing up so anyway you'd. have to have personal knowledge of. somebody. so anyway to come back let's you're if. if you understand. how games are structured. you can start to realize that there's. huge gaps and huge holes in a lot of the. the thinking behind all of it and if you. can create the illusion of choice i'll. play one more if you don't mind it's one. of my favorite ones to do this in class. all the time. uh have you seen this before no okay um.

may ask you some questions please sure. okay fantastic. i'm scared oh there's everybody wins. don't worry um all right. so could you could you please i would uh. could you please pick three fingers. and tell me what they are uh your thumb. okay. your uh pinky okay and your middle. finger okay. so could you please pick uh two fingers. your middle finger and your pinky okay. could you please pick one finger. uh i'll go with the middle finger okay. could you please pick one finger.

oh pinky okay let's play again can you. pick one finger please. [Laughter]. uh your middle finger okay can you pick. one finger please. your thumb yeah your pinky. okay now pick uh two more fingers please. your uh. middle finger and your uh ring finger. okay. could you please pick one more finger. damn it so. i thought that enhanced the illusion of.

choice. it's the illusion of choice if i'm. asking the questions. provided i ask the right questions there. can be no correct answer. it doesn't mean that ultimately if if. that's what you wanted let's say. like i thought i was guiding you to. something i wanted it turns out that was. the outcome you want to. well let's now let's here's now i'm. going to ask the wrong questions i might. not get what i want so. by the way sorry to interrupt uh for. people that might be just listening to. this. that uh no matter what trajectory we. took through that decision tree that. ryan was presenting it was always ending.

up with the middle finger ironically. enough. i was surprised so and all of us were. surprised. and we're both winners yeah we all. everyone i. felt like a winner all right so now it. now i'm gonna then i'll ask some. different questions if you don't mind. uh can you please pick two fingers to. put down. uh your middle finger and your pinky. all right oh that's so awkward that's. like the worst finger positions. okay can you please wait a minute that's. oh hold on.

yeah well what if you pick two other. fingers to put down. uh you throw me a pinky okay my thumb on. my pinky can you please pick two fingers. to put down. well whatever two you like okay your uh. middle finger and your pointy finger. ah okay can you pick two fingers to put. down what's the name is index finger. index finger that i don't. call it the point it's the point one. that's the one we usually point it's. weird to point with the ring finger. uh uh sorry what dude put two more to. put down please.

uh the middle finger and the ring finger. ah man. is it what if you pick my my ring finger. and my index finger. yeah yeah i win yeah so even though i'm. asking the questions it's not impossible. that i arrive at a good outcome for me. but it's it's no longer guaranteed i. went from a situation where i literally. can't lose. yeah it's pretty low probability right. super low probability. and the second you realize what i'm. doing you would never let me win. because the ball is truly in your court. so i guess that that's kind of what i'm.

fundamentally trying to put into play. almost all the time. can i ask the right set of questions can. i develop the ability. um skills wise understanding wise and. then discipline wise. and then have the courage and the. constitution and the and the discipline. necessary the patience necessary to. ask the proper questions and wait for. the proper answers. and if i can. all assuming like the perfect world. i win period oh yeah so does that make.

sense yes it totally makes sense. so i don't know if you know sort of the. more mathematical discipline of game. theory. there's something called mechanism. design so game theory is this. field where you model some kind of. interaction between human beings. you can model grappling that way you can. uh. model nuclear conflict between nations. that way and. you set up a set of rules and incentives. and then use. math to predict uh what is the likely.

outcome. depending over time based on the. interaction given those rules. mechanism design is the design of games. so like the design of systems that. are likely to lead to a certain outcome. and so what you're suggesting is you. want to. create you want to discover systems. whose decision tree all the possible. things that could happen. feel like there's choice being made but.

ultimately one of the parties doesn't. have. any choice in what the actual final. outcome is. uh you're making them feel like they're. playing a game too so it's not like. you don't feel trapped it's kind of like. well the best traps. i don't you don't look very threatening. so i'm like oh i'll walk over there. i guess wouldn't that i guess that's. kind of an interesting thing if a lion. when is a lion roar it's an interesting. thing when you watch like lions hunting.

don't roar when they hunt they want to. when they want to move you back. they do stuff like that when they. actually want to come and get you. they're pretty slinky it's like. water covered it's like furry water yeah. and and i guess like. when you keep that in mind um it's funny. how. like a frosted hobby actually a. brilliant guy like one of my mma coaches. and head coach at tristar. um he brought this up one time i thought. it was a really salient point he said. let's say we have a million. person bracket impossibly huge like. frank dukes went in the kumite level.

huge bracket. he claimed to knock out like 250. consecutive people and you're like that. is. all of hong kong was in that thing and. everyone kept their mouth shut. but anyway that's pretty cool but uh. it's a comeback a little improbable. pretty cool. um so let's say for instance like. there's no cheating going on. no cheating going on and we're flipping. coins right. someone is going to have an unbroken. string of victory. through that bracket which is pretty. insane how many how many consecutive. like. toss-ups this person won and then at the.

end of it all. imagine we like aliens show up and we go. hey they want to flip a coin for they're. not earth whether or not earth uh you. know gets to. gets to continue they're like oh i'll do. it. i'm good at this yeah that would be. tempting as a person to to do you're. like well i'm a lucky guy. oh yeah are you sure maybe i mean maybe. effectively you are we could argue they. effectively are incredibly lucky but. basically. is that an actual ability it's like a. perk in a video game or is that just. this thing that happened.

so anyway uh how many times are someone. you could go through an entire career. you know particularly in a fights board. well let's say you get 15 knockouts in. 15 toss-up scenarios because you see. that happening all the time in the fight. game a toss-up scenario it's not like. you're mounted on me and like and. that's not a toss-up scenario many many. many many many striking centers a lot of. grappling with. tons of striking scenarios are dead toss. toss-ups and uh. somebody wins by knockout they win five. times in a row then they lose a couple. times in a row and we go what happened. you're like what do you mean what.

happened they were always flipping the. coin. and then they win five more they go ah. back on track can you imagine that. you're flipping a coin on like heads. heads heads heads tails what. tails those heads again oh man i'm back. on it i'm flipping good now. that's basically what's going on i think. the vast majority of the time and then. humanity's you know tendency to see a. sign in almost anything. you know it starts to present itself and. then we build a narrative in our mind to. imp to convince ourselves that we're in. some sort of control when in reality. i was in a marginal situation at best. the whole time yeah without having much.

control without having a deep. understanding of the system the same. story is told the stock market with many. of the human. these distributed human systems we start. telling narratives. and start seeing patterns without. understanding actually. the system that's generating these. patterns so if we can see the system. that's incredibly valuable but then you. go well what system is above all of the. systems i guess. maybe physics maybe it's not like game. theory explains these things but like. i guess what are the what aspects of the. system can i can i put my hands on that. i can touch and understand. and what am i what am i missing what.

what's going on in the world all around. me to continue to. lean on on dune that i don't have uh. that i don't you know you talk to a. blind person about. about the world about sight and talk to. someone that doesn't have everyone. who's got coronavirus now so no one can. taste or smell like this is delicious. like. is it so anyway uh you know again. what what senses am i missing or what. understanding am i missing. that's preventing me from seeing the. dots connect. in the world all around me and i think. sometimes if we uh.

oftentimes at least personally i've. screwed this up a lot i'm so nose-deep. in the. in the trench of trying to understand. what i'm doing that i can't take a step. back and realize. you know that i'm in a forest not just. head-butting a tree. and i may be doing both maybe both two. things should be true at once. but uh so i would say when it comes to. strategy trying to understand that but. then also. you go well okay well how can that. sounds cool but how can you actually do. that. and then i'd say that's a really good. question because if i imagine i say man. i should fight like stephen thompson i. should fight like wonder boy he's like.

good idea go do that i'm like. i'm not thinking about the guy i would. fight like could be even banging made of. if i could. you know it seems to work so anyway uh. you go well what if i could develop what. if i could take my time. developing skills so that when these. strategies become apparent that you are. they are executable to you. you actually have the ability to like. enter to again to be the person in the. arena to be the person required. whereas there's plenty of great ideas. like dunking a basketball is a fantastic. idea. alas for me unless there's a small.

trampoline nearby i'm not the guy. but that doesn't make it any less good. of an idea i just don't i haven't. developed the ability. or i lack the ability so anyway i think. a lot of times at least when i watch. people in fighting i'll use an example. um we're so can we're so concerned with. trying to win early on. rather than develop skills that i'm. going like well what's the best way to. fight with my current set of skills. and usually the the path forward is like. the barbarian route like the. you put on the one ring take the damage. you need to take to hit that guy and. that was something i realized very early.

on in my mma career was like i'm not. that good at striking at that time. i'm not a world-class striker now but. i'm way better at striking than i'm. giving any credit for because it helps. people sleep at night i think. but um i'm serious but uh um yeah yeah. you're always introduced as like this. message. like master grappler i'm like that's. nice of them to say that maybe i'm not. that good at grappling we haven't even. seen that. and but the funny thing is i'm like just. because if people almost go like well. lex like. see you're really good at this but you. gotta understand like we're equal man. like i'm good at this other thing. maybe you're really good at what you do. and i'm just mediocre that's also.

possible. so there's plenty of people that define. themselves as a striker that do that. just because that's for lack of other. options not because they're a really. good striker like i'm a grappler i was a. grappler as a blue belt. not really so anyway i guess to come. back uh if. if i'm constantly going how can i win. with what i've got right now i think. often times i never take the time to. develop the skills that i want to. develop and i also never take the time. to develop the strategies that i want to. develop and that has actually been one. big blessing. of uh fighting someone frequently which. has been really frustrating as a result. of injury. and time away and you know some of those.

people being hesitant to get in the game. but uh it gives you so much time to to. be out of the trenches and focus on. developing your abilities so that now. it's almost like developing money. like you mentioned the stock market that. you can now put in as you told me. bitcoin was a great idea. five years ago and i had eight bucks man. if someone told me bitcoin was a great. idea five years ago and i had. you know 50k oh my god i'd be sleeping. in my bed of money that i would then set. on fire later today just to do it. so all the due to all the injuries. you've been mining bitcoin all this time. and now you're a rich man well no.

actually someone told me i was trying to. mine for bitcoin actually like in a cave. and then i found out recently that it's. actually mining is like a. figure of speech not like a literal. thing that you do but i mean in my. defensive english. language is difficult it is it really is. next time. russian is more uh is a ritual language. you should learn. you should learn russian i'll help you. out i believe you thank you so can you. do a whirlwind. overview of uh your career. in mma leading up to this point with the.

injuries. and the undefeated record and then. what's next. since we're on the topic well i i did my. first fight in a. as a blue belt and i've been training. for about a year and a half i did nine. uh judicial tournaments in ten weekends. or eight maybe eight. tournaments in ten weekends prior to my. first fight in uh. april 2006 um i got punched in the face. a whole bunch i didn't realize it was a. professional fight. and found that out like the day. beforehand that was great. thanks coach uh it was in atlantic city.

where another place no one ever goes on. purpose so that wasn't great. i got into three actually three car. accidents. in the preceding 36 hours before the. fight. i had my car totaled um i wasn't driving. for any of them that was great. uh it was 2006. it's 2006. yeah and then. you're a blue boat uh yeah yeah i've. been training for about a year and a. half to blue belt. you're getting i mean if you haven't. lived if you haven't gotten punched in. the face in. atlantic city that's true i mean i so. these are.

i would a lot would have loved to have. it happen for different reasons yeah but. uh. yeah well what's funny is you know i i. remember you know getting punched in the. face a bunch trying to do inverted guard. i won one round lost two rounds. definitely lost the fight. you went for inverted sorry to interrupt. you went for inverted guard like can you. tell the story of that fight. yeah sure it was three three minute. rounds which is not a professional fight. length although i don't know if. professional fight length would have. been any better it's more time to get. punched. uh but uh i found out part way through. is like i remember walking back to my. corner in the first round i'm like this. guy can't hurt me and he's like yeah.

my corner was my friend tom and then. someone else and he's like yeah. i would still encourage you to stop. blocking so many punches with your face. i'm like that's a good idea time i. appreciate that i'm gonna try that. um anyway uh i remember like i was not. you're not allowed to upkick so i'm like. great i was. i had no martial arts skills it really. at all but if i had anything at all it. was jujitsu it was very very little jiu. jitsu. uh but definitely no wrestling. definitely no striking like i was. basically a magnet for punches. so that was your time uh that was you. know roughnecking out. in atlantic city as we all do once in a.

while can we fast forward to when you're. actually dominating. as a black belt well actually because i. took a little bit of money that they're. like hey we're paying him like. really okay stories with ryan hall. well then i went to i went to the casino. i went to whatever like the traffic. canada that was right there. the casino because that was a boardwalk. call and i'm like you know what man this. was this has been a not great not great. evening i'm gonna. this is i'm gonna win it back it's gonna. be great. 15 minutes later they had all the money. that i had from the fight was gone. yeah i remember like walking out of the. casino super pissed.

and like i don't know what i was. thinking like i'm not good at gambling. why. this was not going to make my night. better i just thought that there was. going to be some sort of cosmic. balancing and maybe it was the cosmic. balancing all at once for the things. i've done in the longer term though. yeah the the balancing we'll see. i hope so but to come so we're all dead. in the end though that is true time will. get us all. yeah well that was so that was the first. one and that was when i realized. i'm terrible at mma but i like it i. should just stop this until i one day. learn how to actually grapple much less. learn how to fight but i remember this.

guy named dave kaplan who's the reason. my ears are all messed up. who was on the ultimate fighter and got. punched in the face and knocked out by. tom lawler who i'll always appreciate. for doing that. um but uh anyway uh david tom uh. i appreciate tom i appreciate dave too. david was great dave was just a huge. bully and used to like. really not completely unmercifully but. relatively unmercifully beat the crap. out of me and. uh anyway uh the ears look good so i. appreciate that i tell people it's a. tumor that i got and i'm gonna if they. want in on our class action lawsuit with. atmc they should you know. send me an email but uh anyway you're.

very financially savvy. i'm very good no i just give the. impression like dave basically said hey. don't worry man you're never going to be. good at. mma and you're never going to be good at. grappling either but even if you are. good at grappling which. in my opinion you will never be you will. never be good at fighting and i said. dave if i do nothing else in my life i'm. going to keep training until i can make. you pay for that. and now that i can make him pay for that. really easily he doesn't train anymore. but i love dave dave's awesome he. actually won the singing b what an. interesting dude. super interesting guy but anyway uh none.

of the virginia like speaks couple. languages super interesting guys like. shockingly good at jeopardy too um not. that i'm any good but still shockingly. good to jeopardy so anyway years later. met for as a hobby actually john danaher. i met john danaher and he put me in. touch with for as a hobby i started. training at tristar i you know. immediately loved uh working with frost. and learning under for us started. training at tristar and i did my first. real professional mma fight um. as someone that actually does had. practiced a little bit prior. in i think august 2012 um and uh.

that was against a guy he was four and. five at the time so you know had some. experience um good kind of like first go. for me honestly and i won that fight by. tko. and then it was a little bit of uh time. off and then i did another fight against. a tough guy named uh magic hammer um he. was five and two at the time i think he. was three and i was an amateur she had a. good good little bit of fighting. experience. um won that one in the first round uh. via rear naked choke and then uh. started to experience difficulty getting. getting fights at that point. um you know what you continuously.

introduced as like the. the master of grappling the submission. at least that would that was my thing. i don't know if i was that was the. source of the fear for people i think so. because. i mean that definitely wasn't much at. striking at that point you know i. definitely am a lot i'd like to think. i'm pretty hard to hurt although i try. not to lean on that and i. played baseball for like 16 years so i. can hit things pretty hard i just. wasn't able to uh i i recognized pretty. early on that i had no idea how to. actually hit things. hard without becoming hittable myself so. i think that's kind of the big thing is.

a lot of times like we almost were. mentioning. before if you try to go and get people. too early you can hit them if they're. not that good. but you're going to get hit yourself so. you're making you're basically making a. wager you're making a trade of your own. life for the ability to hit them when. you watch guys like israel. sonia floyd mayweather stephen thompson. uh conor mcgregor when he's fighting. really well. it's not a trade they're not you're. hitting them and they're hitting you. it's they're hitting you but it takes. years and years and years and years to. be able to learn how to do that tom lee.

is another great example of that and you. know my closest training partner one of. my best friends. and uh currently now uh one champion uh. with one championship. in uh in asia the champion of the uh. featherweight or i guess lightweight. featherweight. um 155 uh over there now and he recently. defeated uh martin nguyen in a really. great fight and. ton knocked him out long time champion. and tan doesn't let you hit him he. doesn't let you touch him i feel so. fortunate to have met guys like stephen. and ton. to go early on in career and go holy. moly i can't even. it's not even like oh you'll let me walk.

over and find you it's like fighting a. ghost that periodically shows up with a. hammer and smokes you in the. melon and then disappears into the ether. again so the way to approach the. fighting game is thinking how can i. attack without being hit because every. every strategy every idea you have about. what you're going to do. has to do with uh like that uh. minimizing the the return abs absolutely. i mean that's what all good. fighting has done all poor fighting if. you know throughout the course of. history most generals whether they saw a. read or. you know they they did battles by.

attrition yeah you know it's like yeah. man i've got 150 guys you've got 50 like. yeah 60 of my guys die killing your 50. like that's great for me. yeah but uh that's not so great for the. 60 guys that died you know i hope it's. worth it so when you realize that not. only you're not just. kobe bryant and you're phil jackson too. you got to do everything. you know if you've got to run across the. beach in normandy so be it but that. better be. you should have we make sure we thought. this through and there's like hey. there's no way we can like. you know walk around the side huh. because oftentimes there. there is and i think a lot of times.

there's a lot of incentives in. professional fighting to. for people who want to do that and we. come up with all sorts of well i'm. trying to be exciting. are you is that really what you came. here to do because i came here to win. and i think that anyone that that's. really successful came there to win and. if it ends up being exciting well that's. fantastic i hope that people enjoy. watching something and that's great but. that's a qualitative assessment anyway. you know you want to also be able to. you know live the rest of your life i. think it's easy you know i'll. use meldrick taylor i'm a big boxing fan. alger taylor was an excellent fighter.

um came this close uh to a world title. and was stopped with like. he was in a fight that he was winning. with seconds remaining literally seconds. remaining and they probably could have. just let it go and he would have been. world champion and. it was brutal if you ever watch. legendary nights like hbo boxing show. it's it's great. but um it's heartbreaking it's. absolutely heartbreaking and also like. the beating that he absorbed in that. fight changed him for the rest of his. life. and also you know don't think he'd ever. been hit before but it was one of those. where you go. it's it's all fun and games until you. can't remember your name at age 44 years.

old. and i didn't come here what are they. what did patton saying nobody nobody. wins the war by dying for his country. make the other poor bastard die for his. and uh i think that. that's kind of what we're shooting for. and you know the. lionization of absorbing damage and. that not being a big deal like you hear. that all the time so and so can take. shots that would put a lesser fighter. down. what does that even mean yeah you know. like let's let me get this straight your. ability to absorb. damage is a part of you i mean i guess. that don't get me wrong that is an.

attribute that's nice to have if you if. you need it. but there's plenty of people that. actually have really porous defense. that are just very very difficult to. hurt for whatever reason. that's a fascinating fighter's. perspective on the thing i mean the. the the story that is. inspiring and i know it goes against. the artistry of fighting is when you. have taken the damage. to still rise up and be able to defeat. the opponent. so it's uh but that.

that's a flip side of a basically you. failing to defend yourself properly. right. i agree but let's say for i think it's. it's trying that's a triumph of. of humanity that's triumph that's. amazing it's to witness such a thing is. unbelievable. but you still go this is there is a cost. here it's like i i. i've been fortunate enough to spend some. time working with with the military. and i've been like around and read medal. of honor citations they're unbelievable. like you read the story music. it it's it'll floor you but it's all a.

cost and you don't want to be paying. that cost. or the long term and most of the time. with the cost was everything and then. sometimes you go hey yeah the value here. it's worth everything it's like i. defend your family you defend your. country under certain circumstances and. if that point is extension of your. family. you're like hey this is worth it to. casually throw your life away or throw a. hufflepuff it's foolish there's nothing. there's nothing. great about that and and like you said. it's still an amazing thing to see. yeah but but it's also amazing to see. you not take damages the floyd. mayweather it's the artistry of like not.

being hit. and i wonder if maybe that's why people. don't resonate with floyd as much as. obviously muhammad ali was such a time. and place a great man for so many. different reasons although it was funny. to remember like. there were times when he wasn't very. popular we love him now because of time. of context. you know time to move away from some of. the nonsense he had to deal with. but uh we got to see him struggle and. also he had unbelievable sacrifice both. in and out of the ring you know that. that we all got to witness we've never. really seen floyd struggle like that and. granted obviously floyd isn't like a. civil rights figure like.

muhammad ali was it's different time. different place and he's a different man. but basically uh. you know i wonder if part of the thing. that made us made everyone think of. muhammad ali as the greatest in addition. to of course. the unbelievable things that he did out. in the world and the stands that he made. we saw him struggle in the ring it's. it's almost it's humanizing. you know it's it's weird when people the. person yeah people respect b but again. it's. we saw gsp lose and gsp came back. stronger. khabib is amazing but i wonder i wonder. how. people feel about him long term not like.

they won't think of him as amazing and. great. and he's been a respectable person and. champion but uh. the time he hasn't he hasn't had to fall. yeah if that makes sense and also. coupled with uh. ali had uh a way of being poetic. about sort of the way he was in the ring. sort of being able to explain the. artistry that he. i mean there's like joking as being. playful but really he was. able to describe the the flow like a. butterfly's thing that could be like he. was able to.

actually talk about his strategy without. talking. without crossing that line into the. floyd mayweather when you're just. talking about money and and just talking. shit that's true. actually conor mcgregor when he's not. talking shit is pretty good at like. talking about the art of the marshall. and like first time and uh i wish khabib. did the same. actually uh from uh. like the satya brothers there's a few. there's a culture of like being poetic.

about like being scholars. and also uh bards or whatever poets. of the game and khabib is more. like just simple and he lets his actions. speak which. is is great too in his own way yeah it's. great but. it's nice when you can tell stories and. uh. you know that that that's probably why. ali was the great catch me. up to you went to three fights i think. undefeated yep bj penn you we talked.

about last time you defeated bj penn. that's a. that's a i mean that's an incredible. accomplishment. but you fought a lot of really tough. guys um. when was your last fight and then catch. me up with the injuries. well a lot of people kept more and more. and more were. unwilling to fight you yeah that's been. that's that was why i was out for two. years following the grey maynard fight. between uh. the fighting gray um and bj and the. great major fight was actually what i'm. really proud of because.

um gray was very tough he's very big. very strong very experienced i had. only five fights at the time um and i. didn't have a lot of skills i don't get. to fight gray with what i. have today i had to fight great with. what i had in december 2016. and that i it really took a lot of. discipline a lot of. focus a lot of challenge you know to. stay the course to do what i need to do. in the fight and to win. in in ultimately dominating fashion just. not in the dominating obvious sense that. you see when someone runs across and. just. does that to somebody but that wasn't on. the list for me at that time.

you know so um that was a that was an. interesting one but the time away again. was very frustrating it was incredibly. difficult. before that fight uh after that fight. that well because i uh. i beat artem lobov in the final of the. ultimate fighter in autumn. is another guy that's tough a lot of. experience and uh gets. gets you know he he's a funny guy and he. said some things on the internet so i. think he gets a lot of heat for that. but uh you know he just knocked out. three of my teammates i'm like he. put a couple people in a pretty rough. shape at the end of that so he was doing. well and that was a tough fight again.

if i got to go back and fight that fight. now it would be not competitive at all i. mean it wasn't competitive at that time. but it very it was completely phased it. wasn't close but it was competitive. so you were improving and growing fast. yeah and it was nice to have time away i. wish i had more time in the ring but. again i'd only been doing mma for three. years at that time so the. improvement from doing what the bitcoin. mining. was over uh overriding the ring rust. i think so i don't really believe in. ring rust if i'm honest you know i can. understand why. uh you know people could feel a certain.

way but if anything it's almost like you. just kind of forget what competition's. like. and you realize like oh you feel. butterflies or something like that you. go oh my god this is different versus no. that's your body getting ready to. perform it's okay it's normal. how do you not have ring rust i think i. try to watch try to practice performing. no matter what. you know like whether it's sing karaoke. i'm not very good but like anything you. name it talking in front of people like. you embrace the butterflies um yeah. it's almost like i remember my last. fight i'm just staring at the wall and. i'm like. huh i guess i guess i'm gonna fight in a.

couple minutes. all right hey you give i mean of course. we all heard the phrase like you can. never walk in the same river twice. because even if you're this even if the. river's the same you're a different man. that's uh. i think it's a really important thing to. understand because at various points in. my martial arts career of. thought oh man how should i feel i. remember when i used to do well in. competition i would feel. i would think these thoughts listen to. this song think think about this. i would feel a certain way and then if. you don't feel that way i would start to. become stressed because uh i was. self-inflicted versus going you'll feel.

how you feel. your job is to show up with what you. have on the day do your absolute best. like i will never quit i can be sure of. that i didn't say i can't be beat i. can definitely be i could have lost. every single fight that i've ever had. but. i control my effort and i control my. attitude and that's i will. i will do my very best to execute my. game plan and the event's not working. if i have to i'll put my hands up and. walk dead forward if i need to at. somebody. you know we hope that that's not where. it goes but you know like again that. humanizing moment where you're shooting. for like just the inner like the inner. you sacrifice the outer and all you have.

left is will and. you hope it doesn't happen but if it. does you'll be there but i guess to come. back like the extra periods of time. um in between fights i think was uh. valuable because. it was it was deeply challenging it was. incredibly it was it's. heartbreaking sometimes i'm honest man. it's like i didn't wanna it's just. waiting. oh my god dude is there politics. involved does it. some sometimes you know like i i i. i you know it's every single time you. step into the ring nothing's guaranteed.

um it's uh you could be hurt you could. hurt somebody you could. win you could lose you know throwing. away just like i said throwing away your. healthier life cheaply makes no sense. for anyone um. and you know having demonstrating some. degree of. of temperance is not cowardly either i. mean but again you're. if you wait too long you have nothing so. i guess like uh. i was trying and always being i'm always. open to fighting the absolute best. people possible i'm never turning down. fights. ever um you know some random jabroni.

decides that he wants to fight him to go. away if i wanted to just fight randoms i. would just start at stand to the you. know. on the table at denny's and start. yelling and i'm sure would have you know. some people who'd be willing to indulge. me. but uh you know you want to fight um you. know. meaningful opponents challenging. opponents and i know who and where they. are. and so you did fight in atlantic city. you know i did the denny. but you put the denny's behind you i did. and you know and i'll be honest if they. were if i just stood up after that fight. i don't know if i was in. great shape to expect to win in the. other fights that evening but i could i.

could have tried it i'm sure there was. some takers in the crowd particularly. after they watched me fight they're like. yeah i'll fight that guy. so okay so when was the last fight that. was uh darren elkins that was. six months or seven months after the bj. fight which was great because that's you. know i love maybe five really tough a. very tough opponent very tough guy. super tough dude and uh that was in uh. july 2019 and then right when i was. about to fight. uh so you're ready to fight regularly. after that yeah. trying to fight and then you're trying. to find a fight yeah incorrect we got. ricardo llamas so no one else none of. the. i was ranked in the top 15 at that point.

and then uh. people didn't want to fight we were. struggling to find an opponent and. ricardo llamas a great you know former. title challenger you know. mma you know really great history and. mma recently retired but. we were supposed to fight in uh i think. may. march march may of uh 2020 and then. coronavirus happened. and uh so that scrapped the whole show. you know training we were just. scrambling to try to keep the gym alive. and take care you know i have five or. six four five six i think five full-time. employees that i. you know they're my responsibility i.

have to their livelihood is in my hands. and it's. um to be irresponsible of me to to not. take that seriously so anyway uh. we were able to navigate through that. time and then uh we were able to. reschedule the llamas fight and that was. in august. of last year and i got a a. medical like flag like oh hey like you. you have a medical condition that we. need to look into. you when i got pulled from the fight and. i immediately was concerned because of. course any serious medical condition you. want to go oh man. well i guess i would like to look at.

that yeah it turns out it was a giant. false positive. and you know we find that out you know. all of five weeks later and you go. you gotta be kidding me that's. frustrating and then we're still waiting. for our fight waiting for a fight. waiting for a fight waiting for a fight. people won't sign up. um asked for a number of different. opponents basically said hey i'm willing. to fight anybody that's that's tough and. moving forward um. finally got a you know a great opponent. in dan ige. um for uh i guess it would have been uh. this uh.

this march yeah and then um i was. training in january working on. working on some stuff i was out training. with raymond daniels in uh. in california raymond's amazing um. unbelievable you know kickboxing karate. style kickboxer. fantastic martial artist great teacher. great training partner and good friend. and uh. you know just really bad luck uh you. know kind of a fall in the middle of. in the middle of training and i tore uh. my hip flexor halfway off of my femur. so yeah that wasn't great and you go. like man right at the time where you're. like oh man all right finally moving.

forward. you know having the opportunity to fight. dan's a really tough guy you know you. have to fight well if you want to have a. good chance to do well with him if you. don't fight well it's going to be a. rough night i'm like that's exactly what. to sign up for that's what we want bj. that's what we went with. elkins that was gray and then the. universe goes hey man i hear you but. there's also this so anyway uh yeah. unfortunately it's healing up and then. hopefully uh. which we think you yeah i think um may. this year may of this year yeah so it's. been it's been. it's been about five weeks since the. injury you'll be able to heal up you. think.

yeah i think it'll be okay by then like. i don't need a big camp at this point. i've had. years of camp um i'm not going to. curtail my drinking or anything like. that obviously you know come on man. life is meant to be live and uh you know. so it's uh you know. i i'm in good shape i always i'm always. training i'm trying to do my best to. train around the injury to the extent. that i can right now without. you know hurting myself long term so is. there a particular opponent's you're. thinking about. yeah anybody anybody forward you know i. mean i tried to i asked uh. i asked this second that i got hurt i. sent a message to dan and i said hey man.

like. i just wanted you to be the first person. to know um. i you know i just was pretty reasonably. injured you just got an mri doctor says. like. hey man you're out and you need to take. like three weeks off off don't do. anything or you're gonna immediately. you're gonna tear it the whole way and. this is going to be surgery. and then it's going to be an additional. like eight weeks on top of that to start. to rehab it through pt. and anyway uh you know so i let him know. hey if you can push this thing back i. would love to. keep on the car i would love to keep the. fight you know it's like i respect you a. lot as an opponent and also it's been. brutal trying to get anybody to sign on.

so if you're into it i'm still there. unfortunately he turned that down i. understand he had other things going on. he and his wife were expecting a child. coming up. so uh he needed to he needed to fight. and anyway uh. yeah i guess we'll see who's coming. forward um is there somebody's like. super tough in the featherweight. division that you. you seem to like enjoy the difficult. puzzles is there somebody especially. difficult that you. would like to fight i would like to. fight i know that i'll need to win. at least one fight before this um and i.

look forward to coming back and giving. my best effort to do that. i want to fight to beat uh megaman. sharapov i want to fight yeah rodriguez. i want to fight um uh korean zombie. and b is complicated man yeah that would. be a. guy i would love to see that fight. that's a fascinating fight that would be. fun. um he would be very challenging all. those guys are very challenging. and uh so i look forward to just staying. healthy to the extent that we can coming. back and i'm gonna fight multiple times. this year hell our hot water.

hell yes hey by the way uh i completely. forgot because you were talking about. systems. and decision trees and the illusion of. choice. made me think of sam harris and i forgot. to mention it. so he talks about free will quite a bit. huh. and that there's an illusion of free. will. so it's like old claim cotton that the. you know maybe the universe constructed. that little game where. it makes us feel like we have a bunch of. choices but we really don't.

we're really always ending up with the. middle finger that should be hilarious. yeah that's it that's that's what you. see before you die. it's just a giant middle finger it's. like oh fuck. i knew it uh i knew it what do you think. do you think there's a free will like we. feel like we're making choices so you're. thinking again we're talking about okay. here's a system of martial arts. that's uh hands of gracie there's. different schools and whatever. and then you're thinking okay how can i. think outside these systems but then. there's. also a system that's our human society.

and. we feel like there's a actual. choice being made by us individuals. do you think that choice is real or is. it just an illusion well. okay that's a really good question i'm. not necessarily equipped to answer this. but i'll do my best. um okay i guess i would say to start. with sure would be interesting if it. wasn't real if the choice wasn't real. yeah um would be pretty. interesting if it is real uh first off i. would start with facilitated beliefs. versus.

not facilitative beliefs it's almost. like uh i think the world's out to get. me. true not true what next probably not a. facility to believe even if you. if imagine you believe there's no free. will okay now what. does that justify every single impulse. that you're going to. give into or does the belief in free. will just the belief in my ability to. work hard to focus to be disciplined to. improve my position. prove my situation whether it's true or. not although i think that.

at least many of us would argue that at. least whether whether there's some sort. of internal driver that. allows for that yeah like we live in a. material world your actions do affect. the world. i can choose to pick that water up or. not and anyway uh. i would say i believe strongly in the. idea of. picking facilitative beliefs um you know. and. going hey i will adjust whether this. belief system is right or wrong on a. cosmic level i'm nowhere near smart. enough to understand. but i can say me deciding that.

let's say for instance i'm going to walk. over to have a conversation with someone. in the hotel lobby and they've. never met them and i go over and i start. with oh this is going to be interesting. and i just walk over there. versus in my head i'm like what's this. asshole want. we're about to have two very different. conversations i could be right that this. person is not very polite or. thinks negatively of me right from go. but i think that. that's probably not a facility to. believe people talk about. i'm how is that going to help me. navigate the conversation to a positive.

conclusion and i think about that for. uh um you know let's say fighting it's a. good example like. confidence plenty of people believe. plenty of things that aren't real myself. included i'm sure. all the time and uh anyway believing. that you can do something. i'm like hey i think i can win doesn't. guarantee you a positive outcome but i. would say. it most of us would probably most of us. would argue that it helps. and you think about depression what's. depression if not a. a negative unfacilitative belief that is.

not. always that oftentimes is not reflected. by reality. but you project it on to reality and. it's understandable if it makes you feel. like oh man this isn't going to work out. i don't think the prospects are going. well. and then if you feel like you can't get. out of that loop that seems. pretty rough and i see a lot of things. out in society right now where you go. whether whether you agree or disagree. with various positions on things you go. is that a facilitated belief even if. that is true. which is arguable anything so what next. man so what where does this end one one. is the positive. what's the happy ending here and if they.

go well there is no happiness like okay. so so now what so what do we do here and. i guess uh. so choose the facilitative belief and uh. in your intuition believing that free. will is real. is uh is more productive for a. successful life. absolutely because otherwise how am i. not. how am i first of how can i how can. society function if it's not real. so how can i blame you or anyone else or. hold anyone responsible for anything if. free will isn't real.

well no that's exactly the point you but. at the surface level what you're saying. is true but perhaps if we. truly internalize that free will as an. illusion. we'll start to figure out something that. uh. that transforms the way we see society. for example. we are very individual centric so. uh believing that free will is real. puts a lot of responsibility and blame. on people when they. do something bad maybe if we.

truly internalize that free will is an. illusion we start to think about the. system of. humans together as um. as like this mechanism for progress as. opposed to where. individual people are responsible for. their actions. uh good or bad so we like remove the. value the weight we assigned to the. accomplishments or. the or the violence the negative stuff. done by individuals and more look at the.

progress of society. i don't know what that looks like but. it's almost like as opposed to focusing. on the individual ants of an ant colony. looking at the entirety of the ant. colony. to that i think it makes perfect sense i. would just say that that's a reasonable. thing to suggest. it's a seismic shift right and it's hard. to say whether that would be. you know better or worse but i guess. i'll use this as a this is a convenient. one for me. um so i remember the last time we spoke. i brought up. you know one of the most reviled evil. characters in certainly recent history. probably human history period adolf.

hitler well i'm a big fan of making. people live in the world that they want. to believe in. well if free will doesn't exist and it's. just about how things move. forward when are we going to be. high-fiving this guy or what like this. is you know because i remember what i. said. and you know that actually brings me to. something else we discussed you know uh. yeah for people who don't know ryan. brought up. or i brought up there's literally a. giant book about hitler my so i've been. obsessed with. uh hitler world war ii and stalin. recently uh for.

recently oh man. this has become like a meme joe rogan. with like dmt and. me with it like i picked something more. positive. like cat in the head or something i. don't know but we you brought up hitler. as an example of something particular of. the the some philosophical discussions. we're having and uh the excellent. eloquent and uh the the full of. integrity. mma journalists uh clipped out something. you've said about. uh about hitler and said that uh.

you know i i forget what the headlines. are but there were. the the most ridiculous possible. implementation. basically intentionally misrepresenting. intentionally misunderstanding what i'm. saying. then it's like i get that they're stupid. but i'm stupid too so i know what that's. like so i don't have a lot of. stupid yeah exactly it's it's yeah. exactly i don't i can't give you pass on. that. but basically intentionally. misunderstanding what's going on. but what i find funny is that. hey we got to be careful what we believe.

and again back to the cancel culture. thing that we discussed last time as. well. where would i would i like to apologize. i mean no actually something about. cancer culture that we've been seeing. things culturally like. i will be damned if i apologize for. anything that i don't need to apologize. for because i was intentionally. misunderstood in that instance now. you could say that i don't know that i'm. not a historical scholar which i would. agree immediately and. also that i'm that i oftentimes. ineligibly phrase things which i'll. agree that what again. but uh ultimately you know going hey i. want to make you.

believe live in the world that you will. that you're suggesting. ought to exist okay so if there's no. free will. is everything how far of a step back are. we willing to take cosmically before we. start going. hey this is good because we're. experiencing a social you know. reckoning in our country at the moment. you know for good and. for other um probably i guess and. basically uh. but hey it all worked out right so that. that's probably not something that would.

fly and and i think. that's a fair thing that's interesting. it might not fly from the individual. perspective but if you zoom out. and think of you know appreciate society. as you know just like an ant colony as a. beautifully complex system. like we kind of from from the individual. pro. perspective we value progress. especially progress of the individual. but in whole progress of societies. but if you accept that this is just a. complex system that's not necessarily. headed in you. anywhere that this is almost like that.

river. it's just flowing i think that removes. the burden. of always striving of always trying and. always like the struggle and so on. so it's possible that if we have no. control you can like arrive at some kind. of other. zen state does that sound very human. though that's that's. that's that goes against i think. uh our current uh human condition as we. experience it but we've communicated.

that to each other like. so we've taught like through these. social forces taught. each other that our lives matter and so. on. maybe if we convince ourselves that. we're just sort of like little things in. a stream. and ultimately none of it matters there. might be some kind of enjoyment to be. discovered through that process i don't. listen. i'm a capitalist but i guess i think you. bring up a really important point like i. guess almost anything like capitalism. i i only get to experience it as i as i.

sit here. now and i get to live i was raised in. the united states i've traveled around. the world a little bit i've had the. you know good fortune of meeting many. people from many different places. and um i'm an end user of capitalism i. don't really know how it got here. whether it was. i wasn't there at the start of this idea. i wasn't there for hey how do we come up. with this idea how do we arrive and i'm. nowhere near well read enough to. understand. any of that really uh even second hand. and i guess recognizing that. communism marxism socialism anarchism. anything is uh.

these are all perspectives that all have. i guess. various strengths and weaknesses but i. guess uh one thing i'm always. i guess i would say the burden it seems. to me that if you want to make a change. uh the burden of proof. is is on the person implying that there. needs to be a change yeah and. it doesn't mean that there's nothing. there but it's like if you want to. create a small shift a riffle that's. fine but a seismic. ripping shift in how we exist or how we. experience the world as human beings and. you mentioned fighting. why watching someone undergo take abuse.

on a level in the ring. that's just shocking and then triumph in. spite of it is like. it's you're like this is unbelievable. this is part of the magic of combat. sports. now it's part of the the magic the other. side of the match that doesn't get. talked about sometimes is that the. the trajectory of that individual's life. later on is not always great. um or there's a little phrase there's a. cost for that but uh. you know if if this if we remember you. mentioned removing the struggle. i don't personally the struggle is what.

makes life. is what makes life life and also i guess. you know something for us has brought up. to me on a number of occasions is that. as and it makes sense to me it's. basically uh. humans only understand things uh through. relative comparison i only understand. um you know heat because i've known cold. i only unders it's i guess like it's. like talking to someone that's uh never. experienced any sort of hardship and. then their. their latte isn't right and then they. they pitch a fit. versus someone that's gone through a. great deal of challenge struggle. you know in their life they tend to have.

a little bit more of an even perspective. and anyway and of course even as a. relative thing and what i perceive to be. even may not be even maybe i'm. particularly soft or something the other. direction without realizing because i. can only understand what i can. understand. but the idea that that we want to. fundamentally. alter ourselves as a species and as. people. seems like a incredibly incredibly. high bar to prove and also like an. incredibly dangerous idea. because it always comes back to who's. going to be responsible for this who.

gets to do the choosing. what's a good idea what's not a good. idea and i guess that actually brings me. kind of to a. something i've been encountering. recently in discussions with friends. i feel like there's only two types of. people that i that i encounter at this. point um people with a more or less. libertarian tilt. to their thinking and people without it. and when i say libertarian i don't mean. that. in the political party sense or even the. belief system basically i'm like hey. you do you buddy it's not my it's not. what you're up to is not my concern.

versus what you're up to is my concern. and i guess i've always watched. you know various points in history. people on this side are people on that. side are. more more or less you know i guess. problematic i guess you could say i. don't mean that in the. internet sense you know more of it more. of an issue. but um the world is always full of. people that want to tell you. what you need to be doing as opposed to. more or less do no harm and i guess. that's one of the ones anytime i'm. trying to tell other people what to do. i better hope i'm right and it's bizarre. to me how many people are so confident.

that. their side or their position is the one. that's not only right for them but right. enough that they can enforce it on. others and that just seems incredibly. dangerous to me. and i guess that comes back to even. sam's point about oh we want to. if under trying to spread the idea that. free will doesn't exist i'm not saying. it's damaging but it very well may be. and plenty of other things could be as. well i'm not you know it goes way over. my head as to you know the implications. of all of these and i guess all of us. are an evangelist for something. but uh i i guess it's weird that we've. gotten this far.

as a species and now we want to take. like sharp. sharp turns well we've been taking a. bunch of sharp turns throughout history. yeah that's so that's what you know. that's that's the way. you know okay humans love power and one. way to attain power is to say. everything that you guys are doing is. wrong and i have the right thing and i'm. going to build up a giant cult of people. and i'm going to overthrow and. indirectly what that results in me is me. gaining power. and that's how you get all the big. revolutions in human history.

saying i'm done with the thing that the. powerful are currently doing. so i'm going to overthrow that's that's. where probably. all the identity politics that's. happening now is people that didn't have. power before. are looking to gain power and they're. also. you know that's where jordan peterson. criticizes identity politics is. people with the right with the good. intentions i should say. are in seeking power allow power to. corrupt them. as power always does and so they.

lose track of like the. the the devils that they're fighting by. becoming. the same kind of devils the the the same. kind of evil that they're fighting. and so that that's just the progress of. human history but hopefully. as these power greedy people keep. attaining power with the with the. progressive mindset. over time things get better and better. as they can as they have generation. each generation a lot of a lot of.

unfairness happens a lot of. hypocrisy happens a lot of people are. trampled along the way. by those who mean well but over time. like lessons are learned or like. human like civilization accumulates. lessons. and in part learns the lessons of. history and gets better and better over. time. even though in the short term there's. people acting not their best selves. and you know. that seems to be the progress of human.

history the. idea of internalizing with free will not. being real. i mean you you're actually making me. realize that that ultimately leads to a. kind of um. doesn't that go in a nihilistic. direction yeah it's both nihilistic or. if you want to. make it a political system then it's. more like communist type of. a system where like the the value of the. individual is completely. uh reduced removed or. another perspective is like the freedom. of an individual is not to be valued or.

protected and so. from us our current perspective the. systems that seem to have worked the. united states. works pretty damn well uh despite all. the different criticisms. it seems like freedom of the individual. in all its forms. seems to be fundamental to the success. of the united states. and so we should it's uh however the. hell you put it. is like doesn't matter whether free will. is or isn't an illusion. the belief that it's real protects the.

individual from the group which is. fundamentally correct me if i'm wrong. that always seems like. the big issue of history hey there's. more of me than there is of you. deal with it you're like yikes yeah and. you want to be yourself you want to be. different you want to have a different. religion you want to be a different skin. color you want to do this all the bad. tribal things happen. when there's more of me than you. recreating from wrong yeah. yeah absolutely but then that's always. the fundamental power imbalance though. right. well the interesting thing about the. libertarian thinking i guess i. i don't know those words are maybe.

they're all charged i know what you can. yeah and they're all. i may not scale up but i mean more like. on a philosophical underpinning where. you're like yeah basically. hey you feel free to believe i'm i'm a. fool and. plenty of people do i'm sure but as long. as you don't. chase me down the hall and hit me in the. back of the head with a textbook. what's the big deal yeah so the. libertarian viewpoint. which i probably espouse like that's i'm. very much like uh freedom of the. individual is very valuable. and like leave others the fuck alone.

unless they're trying to hurt you. the thing is you also have to i believe. put in the. the work of empathy of understanding. what others how what leaving people the. fuck alone means to others. but isn't that an interesting thing if i. believe in freedom of the individual. and i take that like all of these like. you said you take them past just their. first. why question you ask why why why why or. how how many times. should that not extend to respect for. you respect for your position respect.

for your individual lived experience. which could be. grossly different than mine yeah this is. the problem with saying. i'm an individual i'm not going to. bother you you don't bother me. that's just like that's not actionable. because. to be to make it actionable you have to. think the why why. why why you have to do the steps beyond. right you think what does that actually. mean that means. understanding how even my very existence. uh like hurts others because. you have to understand that like i'm not.

you're not just sitting alone in a room. you're uh you're using like public. transit you're using the police force. you're using. fire fighters you're using the like. you're using a lot of. resources that are publicly shared and. some of those resources are are unfairly. distributed. like we've agreed that we're going to. pay taxes and. those taxes are going to go towards. building some kind of infrastructure. so that's already towards social that's. so you're not a real. you're you're not a real sort of i.

talked to michael malus like anarchists. right saying like basically full. just leave me the fuck alone and i'm. going to collaborate with whoever the. hell i want. we're not that's not the american. society. as it stands currently we've agreed. that there's going to be certain social. institutions. that we pay into yes and uh some of the. sort of discussions about race and all. those kinds of things. is about those institutions being.

uh institutionally unfair whether it's. race or gender all those kinds of things. listen i you know i have a bunch of. criticisms of the way that conversation. carries itself out but. the thing is what's valuable is to. actually listen and empathize. and that's not over often talked about. with the leaving the fucking little. mindset. because your um. it doesn't have it doesn't have that. little component which i think.

could be fundamental to the function of. a society which is like social. like it's the what is it the obama you. didn't. build it or you didn't build it alone or. whatever. what however that goes but basically we. wouldn't be. we wouldn't be able to accomplish. anything as individuals without the help. of others. and to be able to then start to think. okay so what is. what is what is my duty what is my. responsibility to other human beings. to be respectful to be loving to to help.

them. as part of this functioning society that. starts that's actually a lot of work to. start to think about that for sure. because then i have to like think okay. ryan. what's his life like like as a business. owner doing covid. what's that like and then he has uh. there's employees that. run the gym what's that like what's that. stress like right or about the fighting. and the injury and so on what's that. like that empathy takes a lot of like. compute cycles and also a lot of energy. right. but i have to go through that. computation if i want to be.

an individual that's like. doesn't hurt you if if i may i guess. like to. to come back to muhammad ali one of the. things he said is service others is. the rent is the rent that you pay for. your you know there's these is the price. you pay for right here on earth. yeah and now i one of the things that i. think that i see as a result of the. internet all the time. is people talking about global giant. problems. social problems that are society-wide. that are. massive like truly massive and frankly. beyond the.

beyond the power of any of us to solve. yeah that's certainly on an individual. level. so i've you know i've discussed things. with friends like my father's an. environmental attorney. like uh ian has been for a long time and. has been an engineer for a long time. and uh you know so i'm not i barely know. anything. but i'm reading a little bit of various. things but uh. climate change oh my god i'm so. concerned about climate change. what am i supposed to do about climate. change i'll tell you what i can do is i. can not litter. i can try to conserve energy where i can.

i can do whatever i want what can i. personally do. about some giant social problem. that is that i didn't start and i is out. of my control i'm like well i can be. decent to the people around me i can. mention i can demonstrate empathy and i. can demonstrate consideration. for the people in my circle and to the. extent that i can the people outside of. my circle. but yelling at the trees over things. that over problems that are. borderline cosmic um doesn't seem very. productive it just makes me feel like. i'm cool and important because i'm. talking.

about something well hundreds of years. from now the water will rise maybe it. will maybe it won't i can't. it's completely over my head i know. nothing but focusing on the problems. that we can actually solve it comes back. to the same thing i want to win a fight. i would love to win a fight. uh i can't control that what i can do is. i can control each individual step that. i take around the ring and trying to. make the next correct move. i can't look no it it gets people's uh. you know they get all excited you know. i'm trying to keep my language in check. but they get all excited thinking about. uh. you know problems that are like superman.

couldn't solve these problems. like you could be that powerful and you. can't make all of the bad things go away. but you can absolutely change yourself. and i think a lot of the lessons that. you know like the good lessons from. religion that happened the good lessons. from the great men and women throughout. history that we and that we're inspired. by. that talk about change starting with. within and. you know again treating the people. around you decently and feeding the. people around too decently doesn't even. necessarily mean the golden rule. do unto others as you would like them to. do to you i go. well maybe what i would like and what.

this person would like aren't the same. thing well how am i going to get to the. bottom of that because i could be. attempting to be decent to this person. and by my standard i am being decent but. maybe i'm maybe i'm missing the mark by. theirs. well i can't possibly if i just. interacted with you. like it's like someone talking about. some nonsense microaggression you're. like so let me get this straight i've. never met you before you've never met me. before. and you're interpreting some minor. comment that that i've made. in the least charitable way possible. yeah i'm not saying that that you. couldn't be annoyed but. your expectation for that level of. consideration is. you're going to be you're going to be.

disappointed a lot now if you if we're. someone that's in your life on a. consistent basis and they're like hey i. really don't appreciate what you're. saying or what you're doing here do you. realize that. this is how i'm this is how i'm. perceiving you go oh man i'm so sorry. of course i would hear what you have to. say but i guess trying to. recognize that you know my i guess my. job is to treat others with dignity in. general. but that level the level of specificity. that that that requires. increases as it gets closer to you and i. have as a person i have a very finite.

amount of. resources financially intellectually. emotionally. physically if i chuck you know point. zero zero one percent of it in every. single different direction. what am i doing it's like when people go. oh i care deeply about tibet. like why aren't you over there go build. a house man get on a plane. go build a house oh you don't want to do. that so really what you want to do is. post on facebook and. and accept high fives for how much of a. good guy you are i got an idea. go help somebody in your neighborhood go. be go play with go play with some kids. go be a friend to someone that doesn't.

have a friend. read a book try to educate yourself and. so i guess to come back. it's all of these problems aren't. solvable on a grand scale. but it's almost like by attempting to. address them in our personal lives we do. better. but rather than a giant airing of the. grievances on a. on a consistent basis not that that. isn't you know sometimes necessarily. even valuable. but after you air your grievances you go. hey how about we. sort this out what's the next step and. and i guess again. when we're trying to address it on a.

giant social level just seems. unmanageable. to me even if you have the best of. intentions yeah i mean but nevertheless. there's that. there's a lot you can do on social. networks i mean i i enjoy. uh tweeting and consuming twitter it's. just. i apply the exact same principle that. you just said which is a. free will and discussion which is like. i approach it in a way that. i don't get stuck in this loop that's. counterproductive. i try to do things that are productive.

and like it's just like you said that's. like uh. like what kind of things can i do in. this world whether that's tweeting or. building things. those are low effort tweeting or. actually building businesses or building. ideas. out as high effort what can i do that. will actually solve problems. and that's that's the way i approach it. and i do wonder if it's possible to at. scale. encourage each other to approach like. social media and communication with. fellow humans in that way. i don't know how do you think that would.

be done i guess like to improve the. improve the quality of discourse maybe. like even like you said the empathy or. the the decency of discourse. i think people should be you know. incentivized encouraged to do that i. think. most of what's we see happening on. twitter and facebook and so on. has to do with very small but very. powerful. implementation details it goes down to. like what is the source of the dopamine. rush. the like button uh the sharing.

mechanisms. just even small tweaks and those can fix. a lot really. i i believe so so like a lot a lot of. the stuff we see now. is the result of just initial. implementations of these systems. that we didn't anticipate so the. monetization. comes from engagement and the. the tools we have is clicking like and. sharing it was not always obvious it was. not obvious from the beginning it wasn't. obvious while the twitter and facebook. grew.

that there's a big dopamine rush from. getting more followers and likes and. shares so we've gotten addicted to this. feeling like how many people are. commenting how many people are saying. like a clicking like and so on so that's. that dopamine right so we want to say. the thing that will get the most likes. on and. like on mass in society and then the. other thing that was. expected is the controversial the. divisive. will get the most likes so we it had to. do with the initial mechanisms of likes. and shares.

resulting in an outcome that was. unpredicted which is. huge amounts of division irrespective of. like. any of the basics of human connection. that we've actually all come. to understand society is valuable at the. individual level. like we're saying but on mass what. results is like you throw all that out. and it's all just divisive. at scale uh. discourse uh i think it could be fixed. by.

incentivizing personal growth like. incentivizing you to challenge yourself. to grow as individual and most. importantly to. be happy at the end of the day so. uh feed like incentivize. you feeling good as in. in a way that's long-lasting long-term i. think what makes people. actually feel good is being kind to. others. long-term in the short term what feels. good is getting a lot of likes.

and i think those are just different. incentives. that if implemented correctly you could. just build social networks that would do. much better. so do you think it comes from a. structural perspective i guess at what. point does you mention like. you mentioned free will and also you. mentioned you know feeling good like and. again. working hard you know you i know that. you have the uh i guess the. was it a race or um no it's oh the the. the goggins thing yeah. uh it's 4x40 4x4 by 48 challenge where. you run four miles every four hours for. two days that's awesome.

yeah it's it's a bunch of it's it's uh. the the the challenge of it isn't just. the running the running is very tough. but. it's mostly the sleep deprivation rises. you're just training every four hours. but it's a struggle right. and that's but the struggle gives. meaning and ultimately i guess so how. can we. because you mentioned like you said. adjusting things on like a uh. i guess like a programming level almost. uh based programming levels so that the. interface is different for the user. but at what point does the user have a. responsibility to. you know as a as a man or a woman or a.

person to just. behave more decently how can we i guess. utilize. what can we do it seems like you know. like our society is so grossly missing. like a martin luther king right. now like the great inspiring characters. throughout american history throughout. world history. where are the great leaders so. leadership is part of it but i. you know that's definitely word the. great leaders is a very good question. that's that's more of a question of. our political systems why they're not. pushing forward the great leaders but. there's also just uh okay.

there's uh some just basic engineering. shit which is. when you and i when you ryan and i are. in a room alone. and we're talking even if we're. strangers the incentives. are for us to get along like just when. we're. together in person that's what i'm. saying i'm not even saying some kind of. but. when you remove that when we remove that. the the the implementation of. of the of social networks as they stand.

right now in the digital space. a very different set of incentives it's. more fun to destroy others. to be shitty to others and. that and it becomes this loot endless. loop. uh like you were saying that's. ultimately destructive and not. productive and i think. it has to do with just the interfaces of. uh making it feel good to be nice to. others. because currently it doesn't feel nearly. as good. to be nice to others on the internet and.

if it doesn't feel nearly as bad. as it does in real life to be shitty to. others on the internet so the incentives. are just wrong. i i think there is a technology solution. to this. or at least the solution to improve this. uh this communication mechanism it's not. obvious how a bunch of sort of more. detailed ideas but. this is fascinating because uh i've. gotten a chance to talk to jack dorsey. quite a bit. this is the ceo of twitter and he is. legitimately.

has you know in this conversation. he would agree with everything and he's. a good human being. and he has a lot of really good ideas. how to improve things the question. when you're a captain of a ship whether. even it's a question whether ceo is even. a captain how much can you actually. steer that ship. once it's gotten large enough there's so. much momentum there's so many users. there's so many people who are marketing. in pr and lawyers. it's very difficult to change things is. it difficult because of the.

fallout or is it difficult because it's. actually like literally out of his power. uh so power is weird when you have a. large organization. this is why the great leaders well this. is what great leaders do. whether it's presidents or leaders of. companies steve jobs. i would argue musk is that way is to. walk into a room. full of people who don't want you to. create drama. it's weird man when people just kind of. want to be nice. the niceness creates momentum and nobody.

wants to it's the systems thing. everybody just behaves in the way they. were. previously behaving in the way they're. supposed to behave. and nobody wants to raise a fuss it. takes a great. man or woman leader to step in and say. what we've been doing is bullshit. okay you're fired you're fight you're. cool what is it that right. i'm out yeah i i think you have to. create. constant revolutions within a company. that's very very difficult to do. structurally and psychologically it's.

very difficult to do. to to be able to sort of yeah to. constantly. challenge the way things have been done. in the past and. which is why another way it's often done. is a startup like a small company. basically a small company becomes really. successful and then no longer can. turn the ship so a new startup comes. along right a new competitor. that then challenges the big ship and. then that starts out the winner that's. like google came to be. saw twitter came to be in facebook and.

so on and. uh apple has you know that that was the. dream. of steve jobs as it would succeed for. for many decades for like centuries. that was the idea that you would keep. keep creating revolutions and the under. steve jobs. apple successfully pivoted a bunch of. times right. just like reinvented themselves which is. funny very difficult to do. because i mean i've heard at least i. don't know if this is accurate because i. wouldn't know anything but i've heard. plenty of people. complain about steve jobs yeah but.

in reality the reason that all of these. amazing things were done was because. this person was willing to. obviously brilliant and also willing to. to rattle the you know rattle everyone's. cage periodically and say hey what's. going on is. not what we need to be doing that's a. really interesting thing so he would. rattle. the cage but he would also i don't know. if those are. intricately connected or always have to. be connected but he would just be a dick. so maybe by my maybe by his standard i. am lazy and worthless. well this is he being a dick though if.

by his standard i mean like again it's. like everyone's stupid compared to. somebody. you know i guess uh but at the point so. you you apparently are able to take that. kind of thing it's. uh sometimes you just. you cross there's there's ways to cross. the line and i mean this is. okay the the fascinating thing about. being a leader. especially leader of companies is it's a. people problem. so each individual in a room so. as a leader you're only really. interacting with a small number of.

people because there are leaders of. other smaller groups and so on. but each of those individuals in the. room have their own different psychology. some like to be pushed to the limits. some some like. like to be screamed at some have. are very soft soft-spoken and almost. afraid to speak and they have to be. uh you have to you have to hear them out. like there's a and those those could be. all superstars. we're not we're not talking about like. the c students we're not talking about. the.

students well it's funny that yeah but. the thing to me the skill to manage all. of those people is completely separate. from the skill to innovate. something i mean not that they're not. connected but it's funny how it's. it's almost like uh you know why do we. have shitty why do we have shitty. representatives. yeah well i mean the thing that you do. to get elected has nothing to do with. governance. yes yeah also well that's exactly it but. the the great leaders have to have both. skills. so like you have to have the boldness of. maybe if you look at the great. presidents through history. usually in a time of crisis is when they.

step up. but they basically say okay stop this. old way that congress works of this. bickering of this like. compromise bullshit here's a huge plan. that cost billions of dollars in. today's age trillions of dollars no. extra pork no extra additions. just like here's a clear plan we're. going to build the best. road network the the world has ever seen. or we're going to build some. huge infrastructure project we're going.

to revolutionize internet or we're going. to for. coronavirus we're going to build the. largest like testing facility the world. has ever seen in terms of the. we're going to get everybody tested uh. several times a day. all those kinds of things huge projects. and say uh. fuck all this uh the details that. everybody's bickering about we're gonna. give everybody. uh two thousand dollars and give. everybody three thousand dollars. like huge projects and at the same time. so that's the boldness and the. leadership and saying. throw out all the bullshit of the past.

and at the same time be able to get in. the room. with the leaders of both parties over. the powerful individuals. and smooth talk the shit out of them in. the way they need to be smooth talk to. so like both of those skills it seems to. when they're combined in one person. that's. that creates great leaders musk appears. to have that elon. i don't know if steve jobs it's. interesting so the criticism of steve. and a little bit on elon is he misses. some of the human.

part um but maybe it's impossible to. have. a really uh you have like signia nadal. who's the ceo of microsoft you have um. who's really good on the human side. really really good on the human side. like everybody loves them. the ceo of uh google and alphabet. is also the same way so like i don't. know if it's possible to have both. uh you only get so many stat points yeah. yo. in this in this rpg of life yeah. you got very good at jiu jitsu very fast.

so you want i mean you told the story. blue belt and so on but you. you went to black belt really quickly uh. and not just in terms of ranks but in. terms of just skill level. i mean uh you didn't go to black belt. nearly as fast as. your skill set developed you were like. doing extremely well at high level. competition. so you're a good person to ask how does. one get good at jiu jitsu. we talked about solving problems at the. elite level but when you're a beginner.

at the at the martial arts how do you. get good. how much training should you do the very. basic stuff like how much training how. much drilling. okay and then the mental stuff like. where should your mind be how should you. approach it from a mental perspective. too i'll just tell you my perspective on. this one i guess i would say uh i feel. step one i feel lucky to have found uh. you know a good training situation. particularly. for the time um you know in uh in where.

in where i was at. and uh i drilled a ton um i. drilled and drilled and drilled and. drilled and drilled and um. one one thing that's really important to. understand though is that. it i was able to in a relatively brief. period of years. you'll go from zero to reasonably good. but. um i think i probably crammed more hours. in those. small years than most people did. training let's say in two or three times. the length so it may not. it may masquerade as something else.

other than it is i i could say. you have to put it in the hours yeah. there's no way around that i i think so. what did you put in those out so when. you said drilling can you break that. apart a little bit. like what what does really look like is. there any recommendations. absolutely step one i would say your. choices matter like uh there's a. i think that one of the really important. things that i think we should consider. about jiu jitsu is that there's a lot of. junk in the system right now it's like. jujitsu has. exploded in terms of uh the number of. positions techniques strategies this. that rule sets. that's really cool on the one hand on.

the other hand there's probably a. just metric shit ton of sub-optimal. things. that are out there that are being taught. um myself included i've taught things. that are looking back five years three. years two years one year or i'm like oh. i would not do it like that anymore. straight up sometimes i wouldn't do it. like that other times i would literally. never do even that particular movement. um i don't think the shrimp is a real. move. uh it's like it's a giant spell it's. easier to show in person but long sword. of is there's a lot of things that are.

we think of as fundamental that i think. that are uh. really pretty negative and also you know. um that's heresy and jiu-jitsu. isn't it the shrimp exactly is like the. holy. we all worship the shrimp we love the. shrimp we love the shrimp. now for people who don't do jiu jitsu. and you should. the shrimp is uh you scoot your butt. away from your opponent yeah in a room. it's like a really athletic looking. position where you look like like. someone that's trying to stick their. butt out on instagram.

and then you push your hands away and. you expose your face. and then uh you lay on your side because. someone told you to do. that and you look like uh. yeah i guess you look like a shrimp yeah. it's like that time that uh you know. someone really credible told me to drink. unleaded gasoline and i did it for a. while. and then uh you know it got to the point. in my life where you know the next best. the thing that i needed to do to really. improve my life was stop. drinking unleaded gasoline yes and uh i. would say that there's like a lot of. stuff that's. that's in there that step one is like uh.

it's junk it's actual junk and it's it's. not only. will it waste your time it's it will. straight up it will it will be like an. albatross hanging on you. because it affects how you think about. things going forward so although um. i it was it's funny like the operating. assumptions that. we we work under um have a huge huge. huge influence you mentioned like. growing up in the united states or this. being a capitalist society like whoo. all right now of course i think that i. don't really know any different.

otherwise and i think that a lot of. times people go oh. communism is better i'm like i haven't. seen it i haven't read any books about. it were being better. but uh it's possible i mean i haven't. experienced it much myself either. so i can't dismiss it out right but i. guess i would say it's a fundamentally. different. differing operating system underpinning. and all of my choices. all of if i honestly believed in that. thing many of my choices. on a moment by moment on a day by day. and certainly on a lifetime basis. would be very different so i would say. that uh it's tough when you're.

when you're young in the martial arts. and i mean all of us are always trying. to do our best to learn but when you're. young in the martial arts you always go. if you're a reasonable guy. what are they what they call it like. dunning kruger amnesia i can't even if. this is the right one but basically you. go like oh i know what i'm. doing here so i can say that's not right. but then i read a new story. about baseball only about baseball. sounds incredible um and it's it's. bullshit. yeah but i can't call bullshit if you're. a reasonable person you can't call. bullshit on things that you don't. understand even if you suspect it's not. right you're like well i've got to. reserve judgment. you never ever ever set aside your your.

need and also obligation to understand. why you were doing what you're doing and. don't ask why once ask why. over and over and over and over about. the same thing. oh well i want to shrimp why to make. space why do i want to make space to get. away from the guy well why do you want. to get away from him. well because he's dangerous why is he. dangerous and you can oftentimes get. down to wait a minute i didn't even need. to move. three quarters of the time you're. actually acting in the other person's. self-interest and. i guess a lot of times i can't this kind. of goes beyond what we can. you know demonstrate here but i would. just say uh trying to understand. what my base operating assumptions are.

and consistently reevaluate them which. can be freaking exhausting frankly and. also consonants confidence destroying. but you mentioned uh that that i did. pretty well relatively quickly i was at. um i started in 2004 and i was at abu. dhabi adcc for the first time as an. alternate in 2007. i won a match there against the. blackpool world champion um. and the fact frankly the fact that i was. able to beat someone like that was neat. but at the same time says a little bit. more about. what jiu jitsu is and some of the issues.

with it than it does about how cool. i am was because. that shouldn't really happen when you. think about it you're like okay you're. a champion at ostensibly a very high. level of the sport. you enjoy a three inch four inch height. advantage and a 35 pound weight. advantage and you just got beat. like that should not exist i'm serious. i'm dead serious that should not exist. if that happens you're doing it wrong is. it that i'm doing it right or is it that. you're doing it wrong and there's enough. variance in the way that you're doing it.

that you're allowing. me to win and now i did happen to win. that with a 50 50 heel hook which was 50. 50. but um but basically which was one of. the early examples of. like hey guys by the way people can try. to hurt your legs and that was something. like. we mentioned john danaher mentioned like. you know myself dean lister a lot of the. guys from the enzo gracie team that have. had amazing success they've gone and. done great things. um craig jones in the competitive. grappling world. basically taking advantage of being very. very good in what they're doing but also.

a glaring glaring glaring issue with the. operating system of jiu jitsu. which was you know a huge vulnerability. in the lower body and not only not. attacking it but having no idea how one. does attack it which means you can't. understand how someone will assail you. so anyway um i guess to come back. is if in the in the absence of knowing. what to do i try to polish what i've got. so if i've got a knife and i'm like i. don't know how to use them. okay i'm just going to sharpen the edge. and polish it make sure that when i need. to use this to anything i'll be able to. do it. because trying to put together a system.

when you don't. have an idea of what's going on a lot of. times you end up making. you know sub-optimal choices but as long. as you're consistently re-evaluating. what you're doing and that's something. i've tried to do over time. over and over and over again and try to. seek out the uh. the most um the best and also most uh. um articulate or insightful instructors. or people of various love it doesn't. matter if they're well known or not that. could say hey ryan i think you should do. this i think you should do that. and i i think all i've ever done in. martial arts is try to treat people with.

respect honestly. try to demonstrate appreciation for the. many many people who have helped me over. time and be the type of person that they. want to train with. not the type of because we've all. trained with people that make us think. about beating the. ever loving crap i never wanted to be. that guy and i was basically saying like. if i train with a black belt when i'm a. blue belt. and and this person enjoys training with. me. that's in my interest selfishly not only. do i not want them to beat me up but. selfishly i should. you mentioned being decent to other. people you want to incentivize being. decent to other people right with the. structure of what you're doing.

selfishly i'm incentivized to be a nice. guy even if i'm. internally a scumbag which i like to. think that i'm not but basically uh. going like hey. this guy's way more likely to help me or. this person's way more likely to help me. if i shake their hand. say thank you i really appreciate you. helping me out and uh but that thing. that they tapped me with four or five. times. i'm gonna ask them about it and then. they don't have to tell me they're under. no obligation but i'll say and. will they tell me you don't thank you so. much for your time i really appreciate. it and uh. that that's it you know okay so to. summarize those so. what you brilliantly described i just.

want to make sure we're keeping track i. went all over the place. just no you didn't you're you're pretty. on point but uh so. the first thing is basically which is. difficult i wonder if we can break it. apart a little bit. is don't trust authority essentially. keep asking why. be respectful without trusting authority. right right which is and then the second. thing is be. the kind of person that others like. training with or like being around. sort of uh being a good. friend so so many people just enjoy. being around so one is.

complete which is yeah you're right it's. attention which is like completely. disrespect the. the way that things are done so asking. why. constantly one of it is your own flaws. and not understanding the fundamentals. of what's being described. and then once you get good enough not. understanding. um like going against the fact that the. instructor doesn't understand. and my inability to understand what. you're saying though doesn't invalidate. it and that's something like you. mentioned like. mentioning keeping in mind our own flaws.

and then also again the flaws that any. of us have is the instructor to your. point and i guess. i can speak to being kind of weird i. don't you know i like to. sit in the corner but um so everyone's a. little bit different some people. you know i wasn't terribly popular in. high school i you know like uh. i don't like high school very much but. anyway yeah i would. not gonna be rude to people though i was. never gonna bully anybody. if you said hello to me i'd say hello. back i would hold the door for you if. you walk by. you know and i would just say like. simple things like that. go a long long long way and that.

actually takes us back to our uh. um to our social discussion where i'm. like oh man how do i become great at jiu. jitsu it's like well i'll start by. not pissing off this person who can beat. the crap out of me and not disrespecting. the person. who is probably the clearest the closest. thing to a font of knowledge. at that time for me so and then. recognizing that. i should do that for its own virtue. because it's the right thing to do and i. should try to treat people decently but. beyond that even selfishly. it's in my interest to do that but see. the thing is this this is interesting.

is there's a culture in martial arts. a culture that i like where the. instructor legitimately so. carries a aura of authority. and it's not comfortable to really ask. why i'm not it's it's a skill to be able. to. have a discussion as a white belt with. the black belt instructor. of like why is it done this way. like and saying why again.

like with i mean it's a skill to show. that you're actually. legitimately a curious and passionate. and compassionate. student versus like somebody who's just. being an annoying dick. who saw some stuff on youtube there's a. line between. to walk there i i just wonder because. like. it's the drilling thing and you know i. um. for example like in my and when i was. coming up. there was so much emphasis placed on.

like closed guard for example. and you might you might actually teach. me now i i don't know. but to me it was like why do i need to. master. the close like why is the closed guard. on top or the bottom but the bottom. really this is the fundamental basics of. jiu jitsu. who decided that my body is not. my body says this is wrong i'm like. this like i have short legs but it. doesn't even matter the length of legs.

there's something about me that just i. don't understand how leverage here. works for my particular body. like so it's just it's a feel thing too. like. it feels like in my basic understanding. of leverage and movement and timing and. so on. it feels like these certain like. butterfly guard or even like half. basically every guard except close guard. i i can play i can dance. closed guard feels like you're. shutting down uh like the play that is.

that wrong. or is that make sure that's what you. want because that's almost like an. innate characteristic of this guard. position but it's not sold that way. right it's like hey this is a good guard. it's like hey man here's a bow and arrow. versus. and you know how to use this thing right. like make sure you're you're far away. and like up on a hill or something. because you could take that bone hour. run up on something and try to use it. but if nobody told you not to do that. and they told you it's foundational it's. very foundational it's very important to. everything else too.

right that's back to the shrimping thing. how many things are we taught. that even if it's not let's say itself. is not a garbage thing. it might be effectively garbage you. could give me a ferrari. but if i try to make it fly it's not. going to work. if you're like here's a plane here's. another plane here's another plane. here's another plane here's a ferrari. i'm like oh it must be a different type. of plane. like you could be forgiven for leap if. we're going there you know like oh maybe. the wings come out or you just go fast. enough it's like a bullet like you can. make these crazy leaps in your mind and. people are doing that.

all the time so if you don't provide the. context for me. or worse yet you provide improper. context like. how how much of a problem is that going. to be well. i think the skill of the white belt. should be just be nice. but so in the complicated human space of. when your intention at least on the in. the big picture view. is good there's the question is it's not. always when your intention is good. the actual implementation of it.

is good so you might be just almost. and that's much it's not the case for. you it's much more the case for white. belts. they don't even know their intention. might be good but they don't know. all the lines they're crossing all the. right so they're not actually. able to and like interpret all the ways. in which they're being totally. insensitive to the requests of others. right explicit requests of others. so your job as a beginner is to be. a really good listener of those social.

cues. it's like a visit in a foreign country. right yeah like you're a representative. of people that look like you people that. talk like you people that have your. passport and you're like man i'm gonna. go over here oh i've got my foot up on. my knee. well if i was in certain conscious world. that's rude i'm like oh i'm so sorry. but can you imagine if someone says hey. i really appreciate if you take your. foot off that's pretty rude and then i. want to tell them well not where i'm. from man. i'm in your house i better again i may. go that direction but let's say i could. get away with that now i'm a bully. and if i can't get away with that well. i'm about to maybe be on the wrong side.

of something but i i guess uh. like you said if we have positive. intention that's fine but i also have to. recognize who i am and i think that. that's one thing that. i tried to do and continue to try to do. over time like we're. oh man uh hi i'm i'm the one that's. asking for a favor here if i spawn with. raymond daniels raymond daniel's doing. me a favor. i ain't doing him a favor let's not get. it twisted so. thank you so much for tom i really. appreciate these are not and this is not. like some affected nonsense this is. serious i'm like thank you if i spawn. with stephen thompson i'm i'm the one. being done a favor george st pierre.

takes his time to spar with me which he. has in the past. and and not even kill me which is really. i appreciate that because that's why i. can sit here. george is not a prop for me to to to get. my rocks off or see what's going on and. also. i'm going to do that and then expect him. to just take it and i've seen. he's a gentleman i've seen people get. nuts with george and and have him just. like. he has a he's a patient of a saint i. don't have that level of patience but i. would just say to come back. what figuring out like hey so what what. role am i here and that comes back to. like at least what i see people on the.

internet yeah man i have a beef with joe. rogan you're like. no you don't ryan you're some goof yeah. i'm like i'm some random dude joe. like people wanna they almost wanna like. elevate so that we can somehow be. level we're peers here if i go into. ferocious hobbies gym i'm not a peer of. frazza hobby i'm a student of tristar. i'm a guest in the academy and if for us. asked me for something. short of him like you know telling me to. try to do a triple backflip so i break. my neck. the answer is yes sir i can do it free. for us no man the noise and it's and. hopefully it should come with i guess. a level of graciousness but i guess.

that's kind of one of the things that i. see nowadays with uh. how accessible people are because i grew. up you know being a big huge. sports fan of all kinds i couldn't send. derek jeter a message. and and much less have a possibility of. reply. and if i do it's like you know i have. people send me messages it's very nice. that people say. some people again and everyone not. everyone is coming from the same place. but i've had plenty of things they're. like yo dude i need you to do this for. me i'm like. well i'll tell you what's never going to. happen that i have no idea who you are.

and that was. how i was addressed and i don't need oh. man you're the greatest one because. that's weird and two because i'm not. but just hey ryan uh how are you doing. um hey if you think you could do the. following if you get a second like. if i get a second you're dang right i. can't why not it's easy ask but. it started with some level of politeness. and i guess like that's. maybe being semi-southern like i grew up. in virginia yes sir yes ma'am like. yeah well and there's all different. kinds of implementations of politics i. mean all. most of the successful people i've met. it's been surprising to me.

how much of you you mentioned piers. like the like i could think of joe rogan. you mentioned joe rogan but. elon musk they. don't like they almost treat me like i'm. the superior. you know what i mean like it's not even. it's it's that's the politeness. like you know that's the approach the. feeling of it is like i'm the student. i'm the beginner i'm like approaching a. situation like. it's it's uh it's almost like uh.

method acting of like you're better than. me. that and that's how i approach a lot of. interactions like i have something to. learn from this even if it's like a. young. do you think that they're ungenuine. they're totally genuine. but it's not a funny thing like in spite. of who they are they're incredibly. genuine because they respect correct me. from wrong they respect you. obviously for what you bring the table. but also they approach it everybody but. that's right. that was they were done but i'm sure. they're respectful which means well. beyond that though. they're treating with dignity as a human. being as a human being which is right. people when they could probably get away.

with treating most people without a. whole heck of a lot of dignity and i. guess what does that always say that. like you know again like you can always. tell someone of of. you know of quality because they treat. the king and the and the janitor the. same way. but that's what we're seeing a lot like. like that's i guess i don't mean to like. to nitpick but that's where would. take issue i guess a little bit or. disagree with are you going to criticize. the internet again i know people on the. internet oh man yells it yells at clouds. but uh but um anyway but i guess uh. what what i mean is just like the way.

that people address each other because. it's so casual now yes. you know and it's like it's great on the. one hand it's nice on the other hand you. go. hey i just why can't do am i. somehow demand am i worried about. diminishing myself it's like the way. that i'm sure that people talk to like. talk to women sometimes. and words yo what's up girl oh man she's. bitch. you know versus like how am i that was. supposed to get a good response. what about that was going to elicit a a. favorable response. you know versus being anything anything. other than than just.

yo man what's going on and i guess that. does that make any sense it makes total. sense and that southern thing that. you're referring to i. i feel like that's an important uh. that's an important part of human. communication. let me ask you this sure your new back. attacks instructional. first of all awesome yeah uh second of. all. you drop you drop a lot of fascinating. insights in there but you quote uh. galileo out of all people. and saying that you can't teach a man.

anything you can only help him. find it within himself so. we talked about how to start in jiu. jitsu. what about if we zoom out even more and. how do you learn how to learn. how do you optimize the learning process. i i don't know the answer to that but i. can tell you what i like to do and i. would say. like i can't step one i don't i'm not. maybe this is a little bit easier for me. because you know i've. i've never had a ton of friends honestly. i've you know i've got my close friends.

and people that i know but i. never had tons and tons of people so i. spent a lot of time you know thinking. and anyway uh yeah i can't. i can't control you i can't control. anybody else i. you know i uh um. all i can i want to take my i'll get. some marcus aurelius thing it's like you. know i guess the trick to life is. figuring out what's in our control and. what's not and focusing on things that. are in our control i guess. and uh so step one is figuring out both. internally and then also.

out in in the world as it pertains to. jitsu what is actually in my control and. what is not like passing someone's guard. is not in your control people think it. is it ain't. if i can't just do an activity and be. unchecked. then it ain't in my control entirely. i can always breathe i can always um. you know be calm i can always no matter. whether i'm concerned or not concerned. whatever you want to call it nerves you. know i can step forward across the line. and say i will. i will face the challenge ahead that is.

all entirely no one can stop me from. doing that that's entirely my control. and that's why. i know that every single time that i. walk into the ring i'll walk in and out. of there with my head of high because. there's. i will fight with everything that i have. i can't promise that i'll win. i would say i take that same first. principles you mentioned. the last time we talked you know with. elon and the importance of that. and going what are the first principles. and i guess to come back a lot of times. in my opinion the things that people. think are the basics are not the basics.

you can't learn if you think you're. reasoning for first principles but. you're actually like level six. you're actually like layers up you're. making so many there's so many baked in. assumptions to what's going on that. you're going to struggle to understand. why anything is actually happening. internally externally you name it. so i guess what i would start when it. comes to learning is first principles. and trying to understand what's going on. but then also. simple things first i can control my. posture. i can control my breathing no one can. stop me from doing that i can control.

where i place my frames i can control. where i place my limbs. i can move my feet i can develop the. ability to do these things better of. course and i do that through practice. through drilling through watching people. i've been incredibly fortunate in my. time in martial arts to train with many. of my heroes. to train with many of the people that i. looked at and i was like that guy. is amazing i want to train with this. person like stephen thompson. kenny florian george st pierre raymond. daniels ferraza hobby. you know i mean like bruno farzada. marcelo garcia you know all of these. guys. that are just unbelievable and i go well.

they're moving in a way that's different. well how do i do that well. sometimes you can ask them and they can. tell you directly other times people. part of the. genius of what they do is that it's. intuitive and maybe they don't think. and understand and see the world the. same way that i do that was something. that i experienced with marcelo. he's amazing but in in a different way. then. his it just we see things fundamentally. different. we experience the world differently it. seems to me that we do um and again. that that taught me a really important. lesson because i was wanting when i.

trained there to have someone go hey. ryan do this this this and this and. that's how it works and i'm like all. right because that's how i understood. martial arts at the time um i wasn't. ready to have someone tell me like hey. um it feels a little bit like this and i. just kind of do it. which is kind of what marcelo would do. at the time he was less experienced as a. teacher. but that is what he was doing i was. completely. i couldn't separate in my mind. performance. and understanding i thought that if i. understand i could do it and i would.

also want to i would also struggle. sometimes to. wonder why i couldn't execute things. that i thought i understood. and why guys like marcelo were just so. elemental i mean in like the like. lightning. wind like that type of thing like it's. just so in touch with. what they wanted with with their. capabilities they could summon their. powers at will. i couldn't always do that and i guess. so recognizing that there was more than. one way to the top of the mountain and. also i had a lot of science but i didn't. have a lot of art or i had some science.

i should say but i didn't have a lot of. art. meeting people like marcelo taught me. and then josh waitskin actually. brilliant guy uh chess champion um. former owner maybe owner of martial's. academy really great friend i think he. has a book on learning he does yeah the. art of learning actually. but uh yeah he knows a thing or two. about it but a great guy and anyway. he sat me down one time was like look. man you're you're doing this wrong. you're missing. what the missing the genius the. brilliance that's right in front of you. and it took me once i mean. that i was frustrated with uh with my.

inability to grasp certain things and. and sometimes. uh the teaching style being different. i'm wrong just it was. it it was it was tough for me at the. time you were trying to replicate what. marcelo was saying as opposed to. understanding the. the the the fundamentals from which it. was coming. right i couldn't see i couldn't see. where it was coming from and also. sometimes i'm like well why can't you. explain it in the way that i would want. you to explain it and he's like well. why can't i meet him where he's coming. from yeah so anyway it was a really. important. time unless i'm very very frustrating if. i'm honest but it's not um.

i'm so thankful for that time and anyway. uh. you know i i just always first. principles trying to understand the. basics. first starting at the place where you. can't control things. the the very basic elements of what you. can work with. and then when there's other mentors and. teachers to. to uh meet them where they're coming. from meet them to the extent that i can. rather i'm not like again it's like why. are you not talking to me the way i want. you to talk to me. as opposed to hey where are you coming. from back to your point yeah but uh and.

i know that's not. entirely specific but you know like if. you can focus on that and back to the. whole you can't. teach a man anything marcelo didn't. teach me anything but he taught me. in so doing like and other and other. people like that to uh. you know to find it within and it's like. yeah i guess something else that i've. heard before is that. all learning is self-discovery but all. performance is self-expression. and i always thought that marcelo was a. brilliant master of letting what's. inside out. he would he was so consistent in his. performances and. a lot of times i felt like there was a.

block there personally particularly at. the end of jujitsu when i was very very. results oriented and i wasn't. i think i think my focus was was not a. deal it was definitely not. not in the place that i would like it to. be and whether i would have won more. loss more hard to say but i know that i. would perform better if i'd have. adjusted that and anyway uh. that recognizing that again jiu jitsu i. think i've said it before just to study. as a science but expressed as an. art it doesn't matter if you can. articulate what you know how to do what. matters is if you can do what you want. to do it only matters if you're you know. i guess if you're teaching in a verbal. fashions whether or not you can.

articulate it but uh. recognizing the difference between. learning on an intellectual level or a. conceptual level and being able. to to translate that into the physical. and i guess like that's been the thing. that i feel like fortunate over time in. my own academy to be able to kind of. fiddle around and learn on my own. and practice my students and you know. sometimes i struggle to have great. training partners like when i say great. training. i mean other world-class people to spar. to roll with but i've gotten a lot. more honestly than i ever would have. thought out of being able to practice. and learn and fail and try and succeed.

on my own without. like my own little sandbox um figuring. out how i can take. an idea and then come up with drills and. and. drills to practice it so that i can. actually practice putting it into play. because again. knowing an idea and then not drilling. what's the point i'll never have it it. will never it'll never see the light of. day. so in that dvd in that instruction dvd. sorry. it's an online instructional dvd i keep. saying dvd though nobody has dvds. anymore do they like vhs i don't know. who has dvd with like blu-ray i possess.

some dvds. i mean like i've never watched them what. do you use them for like uh. like a couple like a cup like a thing. you put a drink on. who i mean weren't in a pinch yeah. uh what's that even called. uh yeah my uh matrix coaster. the matrix goes to zeros and ones okay. uh so in that instruction that people. should. should get i've been watching i'm really.

enjoying um. it's i don't even know when it come out. recently right. like december or something like that. yeah it's uh it's. it's part one you're actually like ended. up being like 18 hours long and i was. like oh my god we gotta chop it in half. and it. it when it comes together the whole. thing i think i hope people will like it. yeah. well it's uh even part one is really. good it's actually yeah yeah. people on reddit were really excited for. part two as well really and you also. have a back. oh the old one the old one that i that. was really helpful to me to understand. some.

very basic aspects of control really. back yeah that was uh. you know that clicked with me there's. very few instructionals. there's very few things i've watched. that ever clicked with me and that was. definitely it uh he taught me. one thing i don't know it's uh you drop. a lot of. sort of bombs you drop a lot of really. interesting details. and it's funny that there's only. specific things that really click like a.

lot of it rings true and you kind of. take it in it's like oh that's. interesting okay yeah. but there's certain things that really. click and i remember. when that first uh instruction will. click with me. is like the importance i i don't i don't. remember anymore like how you. communicated it because i'm now. integrated it's not mine you know what i. mean uh. but it was more about you just. describing upper body control and. the importance of the upper body control. from the back. and just like the there's certain grip.

like. the the you describe different details. on the grips and so on. and as i started trying it i realized. how important. upper body control is versus like me. maybe as a blue belt or something it was. i thought like. you have achieved victory when you got. the two hooks in. and then i realized like at least for me. that the hooks were not. even for my body type for my style for. the way i approached things. they were not even important at all.

they're supplemental for the most part. yeah so they were there for the points. but i can establish a huge amount of. control. uh in fact the hooks were. you you were talking about like illusion. of choice it's it's uh. it almost made people panic a lot more. when you were like fighting for. or establishing that kind of control. they were a lot less panicked when the. hooks weren't involved even though they. should be a lot more panicked. anyway i realized a lot of those kinds. of things especially that had to do with. judo because.

so much of judo on the ground is. centered around. aggressive efficient very fast choking. like. different kinds of clock chokes and all. that kind of stuff what a brilliant. thing that is only going to start to. make its way into jiu jitsu coming up. but like the judo style approach to like. clock choking triangling from the top of. the turtle and stuff. it's so powerful yeah and the the. there's something about judo that. emphasizes. obviously due to the rules the urgency. so there you only do techniques that go. fast and then the other thing is.

which i guess uh jiu-jitsu emphasizes. too but judo. really does which is um the transition. so like while the person's flying in the. air is the easiest time. i mean this is like ryan hall type of. shit which is like. why not put in your submissions or. positional control while they're in the. air and if. well if you could why would you not. right and say oh well i don't throw well. we'll learn how to throw. and then do it and so you should think i.

mean in a transition. when they're flying is the easiest time. to put in stuff and that's. when you think about jokes as you're. throwing you should be thinking about. the choke. and then everything becomes a lot easier. you ever see flavio canto. uh man brazilian judoka yeah it's. so cool like with stuff like that yeah. yeah exactly but. but that has to do with the first. starting principle of like. stop thinking this as a two-phase game. of uh. standing and then ground start thinking.

about. like the the standing and the the. standing comes before the ground comes. after but everything happens in the. transition. well unless you're attacking what is the. art of war like every we all like. everyone's like oh yeah the art of war. oh yes he says and then they immediately. throw it away and then fight like a. freaking barbarian but uh. yeah i mean like i'm serious but uh you. know how many people quote stuff and. then. like you know it's like what is it the. family guy joke or they're like you know. quoting jesus then jesus walks in he's. like you're not sure about work what are. you talking about and anyway uh. basically um you know like what like the.

art of war you know one of the things. that's like. the only thing that you can be sure of. being successful in attacking is. something that's undefended. yeah well like yeah yeah but you know. in a fight though they're defended well. are they there's moments all the time. where i'm. borderline defenseless and if you were. to attack at that moment. if you could see it and then seize the. moment if you were capable of both. you should not only expect to be. successful you should be damn sure. you're gonna be successful and more more. important than that you'll be successful. and even if you're somehow not you won't. be countered.

and i guess like uh that's the trick of. almost. all all like conflict right it's like. showing up when the other person's you. know taking a nap. and then it's so funny like we take like. a protracted war it's like oh it takes. five years. and there's you know lulls and there's a. battle this month but then there's a. couple weeks in another battle it's like. well if you just shrink that down it's. the microcosm macrocosm idea. that same thing that whole war is taking. place in five minutes or 10 minutes or. 15 minutes. and there's moments of laws of person. effectively going for a snack. you know being like you know in a horror.

movie like hey guys i'm gonna go get a. beer from the uh from around the way. like i'm dead for sure. so anyway um is there in this particular. instructional if you can convert into. words. uh you talk about finishing submission. is there some. interesting insights that you find. beautiful or profound. about finishing the rear neck choke or. just finishing the submissions from the. back control. is there some like you know you talk. about the squeeze and the crush and all. these kinds of principles.

is there something about control about. the process of finishing. that uh you find especially profound. about this position. absolutely the opposite of one profound. truth can be another profound truth. so like uh it's i i i do uh did jesus. say that. no i don't i actually was a guy on. tumblr um but uh. yeah it was really really cool there's. like a like a tree in the background. but anyway uh uh but so let's say like. i'll use i'll use examples like first.

off um i i saw. someone finishing a 50 50 heel hook in. the ufc one promo. that it was like some chubby dude in a. karate key like inside heel hook and. another dude. and you go huh well i didn't know they. were doing that back then at least and. whether they were doing it. how many times did someone do something. and then that works and then we go. okay cool versus hey maybe we should do. that all the time so anyway how long do. we all talk to the seat belt the way we. all do the seat belt in jiu jitsu. like a long time why works in fact it.

works so well. and it was so it was then the people who. used it were so prolific. that we went well solved that one good. to go. all right no more thinking and then you. go imagine you were to like the merkel. and merkel flip. all those positions that we're showing. in the uh in the dvd which is pretty. much or the whatever the heck it is i. don't know the digital. vd um no not vd i don't want that. digital digital video something but. basically uh. recognizing that doing it on the wrong. side.

is at least as effective doesn't mean. that the other side wasn't good. there could be something that's the. literal borderline opposite of that. and you go huh why is that something. like imagine like i would say almost all. of these things all the tactics and all. the strategies so i guess that was. something that we came to. like training in the gym like a year ago. maybe i've been playing with since and. it's just it's huge i'm like oh wait so. let me get this straight. first if i can use my strong side seat. belt my right arm over the shoulder any. all the time well that's that's really. helpful because that's a lot better than.

my left i can do both sides of my left. but if i had to. bet my life on on being able to finish. it i would want my right arm over huh. everything that's a tactic or a strategy. evolved from an idea like capitalism is. an idea. you know anarchy is an idea and then it. becomes what does that all mean what are. they what are the consequences what's. the fallout of all this right. so what if we start with jiu jitsu the. idea of the guard right and we go well. i mean wendy why do you use the guard. nor the martial art really has developed. the guard. in the same way the jiu jitsu has well. what is the guard a guards are not a. defensive idea where you're kind of on. your back.

to some extent or another and you're. using your legs as a wall between you. and. the other person and the other guy. represents danger and you're like yeah. that's a great idea. is it i mean it clearly works at least. to a certain extent. but what where do i want to put my legs. when i want to get up. not on the other dude i'm trying to put. them on things on the floor if i want to. generate a ton of power. what's the first thing i do with my feet. i anchor them to the floor drive for a. punch you name it move away. jump dart yeah you name it so does it. mean that that's a terrible idea to be. on your back. no clearly it works and clearly it limit.

face has function. but what if the function that we're. giving it and we're and the how much how. much focus we're assigning to it. is disproportionate to its effectiveness. yeah maybe what if it's not a good idea. i'm not saying it's not a good idea but. what if it wasn't that's a foundational. idea of jiu-jitsu and then how much. because no one questions that foundation. how much innovation is built on. top of the idea well of course i want to. be my being on my back is an okay. position so now they're innovating. but they're innovating within a closed. system that they don't they think. they're innovating.

in like in this open space of oh my god. it could be anything when in reality. it could be anything within this little. set yeah but you don't realize that. you're in a set you don't realize that. you're in a box. there would be answers that would become. so immediately apparent to you. if you were willing to look outside of. that but you'll. literally never even look over to your. left because you don't even realize the. left. exists do you think there's a lot of. places in jiu jitsu whether it's back. control or generally guards and all the. different positions. where there's a lot of space like. a lot a lot to be discovered by.

questioning the basic assumptions maybe. if you can give examples of like back. control like is there something you've. discovered this like. merkel versus seatbelt what's miracle. seatbelt is uh right arm over the. shoulder. left arm under the arm on i'm on the i'm. on the same side as my choking arm. merkel is just i do the same thing i. don't even adjust my hands i walk myself. over to the left side i'm on the. opposite side it's actually a more. powerful position yeah for people. listening or for people who. might not know jiu jitsu is uh seatbelt. is a control we're talking about when.

one person is on the back of another. person. which is a really dominant position jiu. jitsu sea belt is a. i guess widely accepted. way of holding best practices almost. best practices yeah and it's worked so. well. so it's a one arm over one arm under. and there's a certain side you're. supposed to be on. when you're on the back you know. everyone teaches there's a choking arm. that's the arm that's over. and your body is supposed to be in a. certain side relative to that.

and then ryan is describing questioning. these like. basic assumptions about which side. you're supposed to be on and let's say. that's even just like a mid-level. assumption it's not even a first. principles assumption. but it's pretty supposed to it's getting. there but but let's just say for. sake of argument it goes a lot deeper. maybe um. i think most of the innovation that i. see is not innovation. it's like basically changing the color. of a car. or polishing like the window a little. bit we're like hey you made it you made. it a little bit different you made it a. little bit better.

it's like oh man what if i did the same. guard and then grab the lapel. i'm not saying it's bad but you're not. fundamentally changing anything i think. most of the big seismic shifts that we. see in almost anything come from. hey that thing we thought was right was. wrong rather than. not only is it right it's even writer. and you're like that's not wrong it's. not bad but that's. you're in it's like oh man let's say for. instance i didn't make the triangle. better but let's say i made the triangle. a little bit better than it was or. then it was taught um yeah i mean you. call it innovation i don't know man it's.

not like the person that said hey have. you guys ever heard of a triangle before. and came up with that we're like that is. i feel like that's that's on the list. you can do this thing to people are you. kidding me can you imagine you invented. the straight right hand you'd be like. one punch man you can walk around and. just. just lay low every single person you got. into a fight with because it didn't even. occur to them to hit you. with their backhand in a world full of. jabbers you throw your back hand. you're gonna kill people so basically. but by the way i mean. just to pause on that that first of all. somebody did invent the triangle. probably right sure.

it's not a trivial thing once it's like. no it's how many of these giant. things that we all go like oh yeah we. all use that now can you imagine you. have triangles and heel hooks and rear. naked chokes and i don't have those. you're on b you're borderline i mean. like that's that's why that's we all. experience every single one of this. particularly those of us i mean when did. you first start training likes. uh 12 13 years well let's not count. wrestling but 13 years ago with. jiu-jitsu right on so let's say. let's say about that time where. particularly was still like kind of kind. of underground-y. you know and you're like hey we all. experienced being like a.

relative like a mid-level wipeout and. being able to easily beat up all our. friends. because everyone wrestled all their. buddies and it was one of those ones. where like. they don't have weapons to end the fight. you have weapons to end the fight. that's so cool that's such a crazy you. know asymmetric. advantage that if you lose it's on you. now man like you get like you had the. next time it's like i've got this rifle. and you have nothing and i decide to put. it on my back and then run over and try. to karate chop you're like okay. next time just make sure you use the.

rifle bud i'm like oh yeah i should do. that. so yeah it's kind of fascinating to i. mean everything you're describing. is a there's a fascinating tension. between like whenever i show people for. the first time what a triangle is just. like regular people. uh it's like they're discovering he's. like oh okay that's interesting i mean. mma has changed that but people have. haven't watched mma. that's an interesting move it doesn't. make sense why that would be a choke. and they kind of quickly accepted that's. a thing and they accept the basics.

without questioning. wait a minute what's actually being. choked. how is it that a shoulder of a person. can do the choking like i'm not sure i. fully. question the fundamentals of all of that. like i claim i have either what exactly. is the blood supply that's being cut off. like what what is the anatomy and the. physiology of all of that why does this. work and if you understood all that what. else could we do here yeah what else can. we do here that's the really important. thing but if we know if i'm an end user.

which almost everyone is of almost. anything i'm serious where i'm like i. think about stuff in my life the only. things i really think about are like. martial arts and. martial arts strategy and like i don't. know some other couple. couple other things but not much and. anything else in my life is. is borderline unexamined and i like to. think that if i put a lot of effort into. something i'd like to think that i could. figure at least some things out about it. but i figured out almost nothing about. anything in my life because i haven't. even looked. and you know if you're an end user what. are you capable of. versus you can literally alter the. source code you are neo in the freaking.

matrix if you can alter the code and i. can't. and it's like we think about haha but. imagine you. are a world class anything or even not. even world class forget it like a purple. belt compared to a white belt or. compared to a no belt might as well be. jon jones or marcelo garcia you're going. to beat them up comparably bed. so it's uh that's that actually is a. common thing where people can't tell the. difference between levels they're like. oh man i'm training with my black belt. instructor how much better could so and. so be like. so much better you're gonna have a hard. time wrapping your head around it i.

remember when i first trained with. marcelo garcia in 2007 i was a decent. purple belt. and of course he molly walked me very. gently and then uh training him again in. 2008. i was definitely better i won the gui. and nogi worlds that year at purple belt. so definitely for the record i'm. definitely not a jujitsu world champion. i wanted a purple belt but like that's. not the same at winning a black belt. um and uh tough accomplishment but not. in the same thing at all. but anyway um i was definitely better he. beat me up just the same. way okay 2009. i was a lot better got a. medal at adcc that time.

won the trials crushed everybody like no. just submitted everybody like. bob train marcelo garcia it was worse. and uh 2010 training marcelo garcia same. same. so the idea was uh i wouldn't be able to. tell you the difference and. that the outcome difference was the same. in all of these rounds i was. significantly more experienced and more. more adept each time each time that this. occurred but it was like. how many number of times did this person. submit you were past your guard in the. round i'm like i don't know probably. like let's say five each one because.

it's. a brief period of time and let's say it. was three on one six on another or. whatever. it's comparable it's six one half dozen. would i be able to easily tell the. difference. no i would just say i know in concept. that he's way better. so much better but there's plenty of. other people that could have beaten me. just as bad as marcelo did when i was a. purple belt. or when i was a brown belt then maybe i. would watch marcelo walk through like. their borderline not there. so it's neat like if you that's back to. kind of what i was talking about about. certain people beginning to really. like peel back some of what's really.

special about. the martial arts or any activity i. presume um is they get to a level of. understanding and depth. that they're playing with like the. almost the reality of that thing. and i'm i'm playing by rules that are. not rules i'm not. i'm not even wanted to use a matrix. analogy i'm not even an agent which is. the. best version of something playing by the. rules yes. i'm like one of the regular people or. one of the regular people in. that got out of the matrix so i'm like. oh i'm cool but when i fight an agent i. lose. because we're both in the rules but they. just play them to the play them to the.

bone and i'm just. here well and then the agent encounters. neo and they. can do nothing you're like why because. operating outside of what the rules are. but not really what the rules are what. they perceive to be the rules are. clearly so anyway i guess that's kind of. my point about marcelo or certain other. people that are doing things where you. go. that doesn't even seem real it doesn't. seem real to me because i don't. understand what's going on. and i guess if we can get down to base. assumptions but like if we can. constantly strip away strip away strip. away. let's say we always thought that turning. left was right it was correct and it. turns out that turning right was correct.

it changed your life yeah it's uh what. is the soccer you said the unexamined. life is not worth living. so you just basically have to rigorously. just constantly examine every. assumption over and over and over but. doesn't that give your life meaning to. come back to the struggle to come back. to free will to come back to what if we. could strip all that away. all right cool all right let me just. stick the needle in my in my arm and. that's that. yeah no i mean that that constant. striving. for understanding.

yet another lower layer of the. simulation we're living in. is is is something that's actually. deeply fulfilling that. i don't know if it's genetically built. in but there's something about that. striving to understand that seems to be. uh deeply human but it's funny what. makes us human. we don't talk about the soul anymore man. i went to catholic school as a kid. and whether you buy into all that stuff. or not you're like what what about the. soul of a person. the spirit of a people the spirit of a. nation. anywhere the spirit of humanity we don't.

we talk about everything like it's this. quantifiable thing when maybe certain. things are maybe everything is. but then what happens if there's things. that just aren't quantifiable that. nothing in our understanding can or will. ever explain it that doesn't mean that. that should be our assumptions through. our assumption that we can explain. everything and let's get to the dang. bottom. appeal but what if there is actually. something that. like that you that we need challenge for. yeah and we could be looking in the. wrong place by going oh wait is it in. the genes maybe it is. again i'm not saying we're looking wrong. places like i wouldn't know anything i.

do karate but basically uh. not even well um but uh yeah do karate. mediocre just asked grandma daniels or. stephen thompson but uh. uh i guess the to come back though you. just are you yell about you. or are you man i actually have you ever. seen the seinfeld episode where kramer. fights the kids. yeah i did that at raymond daniels. school under the kids kids wanting class. as in addition to the uh the alleyway. oh yeah yeah. exactly when i was on my last legs but. uh but yeah. i would just maybe it's funny i feel.

like there's something. deeply missing from you know from public. understanding anymore that it's almost. like the idea that. we can figure everything out which i. deeply believe in but also the. possibility that there's some things. that we'll never really see and some. things you'll never understand and. there's something. like you said uniquely human about the. human experience that even if i had the. power to change. i don't want to fuck with it man i don't. want to change that thing. oh yeah well wouldn't it be great if we. just immediately knew the outcome of.

everything and you just press this. button you're like oh that's kind of. what's the point of living life then. even if you could do it it's it's the. end you've seen drastically i'll leave. you be sorry i know i'm talking about. ian malcolm jurassic park jeff goldblum. right life life. uh finds a way but we were so concerned. with whether or not we could. we didn't stop to think whether or not. we should. maybe i i think there's an ex. i mean it's a deeply human thing but. it's also a really useful thing. to always kind of assume that there's. this giant thing that you don't.

understand. so you can forever be striving to. understand. because that process gives you meaning. but also. keeps making you better like thinking. that actually even just thinking that. you can't understand. everything will. lead you to stop too early so like. uh i i think there's something to. whether it's the soul or whether it's. like religious stuff like assuming that. there's this thing. that you cannot possibly understand is a.

really good assumption under which to. operate. and underwish to do this first. principles kind of thinking because you. can just keep digging and keep digging. keep digging even when it seems like. you're at the bottom because you don't. fucking know if you're at the bottom or. not. and back to your original back to one of. our i guess our other kind of tangents. was. that comes back to everyone's a human. being the smartest human being in the. history of. humanity is so hilariously. weak like short-lived and not. intelligent. for yourself bro i understand i didn't. say no i'm not saying comparison to me.

in comparison to me everyone is awesome. but that's that's why i don't do the. goat thing but basically uh. you know we're it's just on a cosmic. level can you imagine if you were. vampire you're like 900 years old like. how much you would seem you would seem. like a lowercase g. god to people yeah you'd be like how can. you how could you know so much how can. you have such a long view perspective it. would be insane. so i mean that it seems like we're. talking about ai now right we're. creating things that are. infinitely smarter than us effectively. and live all this time and it's probably. going to do what we tell it to do right.

no it's probably well i hope it keeps us. around do you by the way think about. ai and the existential threats like. speaking of gods. iu is this whole technological world we. talked about social networks and this. increasing power of technology around us. we ourselves are becoming less human. because we keep becoming. we we keep relying on technology more. and more. so we're becoming kinds of cyborgs but. also there's a future that's.

quite possible where the technology. becomes. smarter and more powerful than us humans. and you know starts. having a life of its own in ways that. perhaps we don't imagine as human beings. i don't just mean like. two-legged robots walking around and. being humans but smarter. i mean like an intelligent life that's. that's beyond and.

fundamentally different than our human. life is it's infinite. it's uh also creating new species yeah. yeah a new. a new kind of species not even just a. new species. you talk about systems but like it it. lives in the space of information. it lives uh in a different time scale. and a different scale of also a spatial. scale. it uh operate like we speak we spoke. about individuals it doesn't operate in. the sense of a single individual like.

embodied it's not embodied so it's not. like a thing that walks around. and it like it looks at stuff it. consumes the world it's able to do. much larger scale sensing of the. environment around it. all that kind of stuff i can't barely. even try to i can barely conceive of. what that would be like are you scared. are you excited. i don't define like scared or excited i. feel like i try and tend to define them. like the same way or i'm like. i guess i i'm kind of like before.

karaoke. it's the same well that's actually kind. of my happy place it's not so much. everyone else's. you know it's uh everyone else is. probably you know heading for the door. at that point but you know it's uh while. you're doing it or leading. or leading up to the karaoke well it. depends whether or not uh whether or not. they know it's me. if they know it's me that's before i. start if they if they're like who's that. guy then they're like halfway through. the song they're already you know. what's throwing their beer what category. is a song or a particular song are we. talking about in terms of like your. happy place. oh man are you kidding me i mean. obviously we came in rhapsody i mean. there's no.

question because oh yeah because i don't. have to sing it here it's that it's like. you remember can you can i be. oh yeah of course is he here no yeah. then yeah yeah all right if you i like. this here no that i can't i've a torn. i've uh. i've torn feelings about bohemian. rhapsody because i like the beginning. part the sadness i like like the solo. the heartbreak but the second part i. understand it is so much just like. it gets ridiculous it's so ridiculous it. ruins it for me but it's more about. flexing on people i think if you can. actually. hit hit that hit that you know the. falsetto yeah so it's. it's not okay so you appreciate enough.

for the musical. uh beauty and complexity of the song you. just like to flex on board because like. for all yeah like what's the purpose of. anything except for just to let everyone. know that you think you're cool. and there's no better way of doing that. than karaoke so i'm not sure why bro. captive audience yeah exactly oh fear. and excitement of artificial. intelligence i mean like you know me i. don't know anything about. i just i basically i don't i don't. understand the implications of. of any of this i would just say that. like radically altering what it means to.

be human in such an unbelievably short. period of time just seems like. such a crazy thing and also it's not. like we're i can't remember who said. this to me recently might even be like i. can't remember so this is definitely not. my idea. but uh we're we're not even going hey. would you like to opt in everyone. everyone is being. opted in you know and particularly when. you want to talk about. like large-scale robotics a large-scale. ai like the world is changing people in. senegal are opting in right now without. realizing it it's not even like and. again i don't mean to pick on senegal.

it's just whatever country comes up to. mind but it's in the developing world. but basically uh. you know recognizing that this. huge shift is coming we have no idea. this is a decent idea and also something. else i've always been considered. is uh you know you think about most of. the really awful. awful awful things that have done in. history large-scale slavery. hall you name it it didn't people say. that it came from. this motivation or that motivation maybe. it did maybe it didn't fundamentally the.

issue at least in my mind. i'm not a historian power differential. if you if you and i can't contest we. don't contend it's not like you we fight. and you might win or we fight even. you'll win comfortably. it's you are so unbelievably powerful. compared to me that there's nothing i. can do to stop you. that seems like a recipe for something. really really not great happening. because. if you think about like uh you know. european countries encountering each. other and i'm just speculating i don't. know anything about history but let's. say countries that can contend with one. another.

versus countries that can't. let's say an alien species alien race. shows up you know right now we don't. want that i think stephen hawking said. that that makes for. it makes perfect sense to me we don't. want that if you can come here. we better hope you're nice because what. are we going to do what are we going to. hope that you invade the water planet. like they did in uh you know one of the. uh. side lord of the year where the world so. i guess what i'm trying to get across is. like. shocking levels of power differential. between groups makes that makes the. world. ripe for horrific abuse in the event.

that someone decides to do it. it's like like you imagine an adult. hitting a child like hating hitting a. child no one in their right mind would. ever go like. that's a great idea because it's such an. it's so. grossly imbalanced you're like this is. wrong but but it's also on the table. only because of the gross imbalance so i. guess to come back it's like. whether we create ai and it's on some. crazy level of its own or it's. i'm in charge of it or so i just it. seems like we're. we're creating you mentioned like game. theory. and nuclear war what prevented nuclear.

war. i mean i presumably mutually assure. destruction i mean hopefully also. humanity. and the humanity and the the reasonable. you know cooler heads prevailing and. going. hey i can i can understand the veil of. ignorance and i uh i don't go oh yeah. let me kill those guys because i can i. go this is wrong period. and in concept this is not an action i. should take. but it's also nice and easy to keep me. honest if i know that i can't get you. without being got myself. yeah but what happens when i can get. anyone. anything and i'm more or less.

untouchable like that seems to me to be. like. like various times in colonial history. you know what i mean and. what happened we know what happened but. so the possibility of. really bad things are plentiful the. possibilities. but are the possibilities of really. positive things applying for. like what though i'm not saying wrong i. don't know so i can give a million. examples. one is just the examples of the parent. and the child. uh you said uh there's a power.

differential there. and we don't like a parent hitting their. child. about not just hitting like beating like. really yeah great. beating their child how often. percentage-wise do you see that. happening even though that that that. uh power differential first of all other. people's. kids let's just put this on the table i. love kids. but other people's kids can be annoying. sometimes sometimes you got to deal out.

some justice i get it. but we don't practice we don't take. advantage of that power differential. so like there is ethics there's. moralities that. emerge that allow the power differential. to be used for good. versus for bad so like you're one of the. assumptions. with stephen hawking or with uh if. russia became much more powerful than. america or america much more. powerful than russia in the cold war. your assumption that immediately. that power differential not your.

assumption but it would express itself. right would express itself. in the in the same way that it was. trying to express itself when there was. a more. uh level competition but it's also. possible when the power differential. grows. the incentive the joy whatever the. mechanisms that. uh made sense when it was at the same. level. that the incentives become very. different it's not as fun to destroy the. ant colony. you start becoming more the kind of a. conservationist.

like one hopes it's an evolved. perspective though yeah. well i don't know if it's evolved or not. but it's definitely a possibility it's. unclear to me that something that's many. orders of magnitude more powerful than. us will want to destroy us well i mean. what did we. what did i mean how did how did mass. slavery occur how did. you know like just big dogs playing with. not. i think i think slavery and. a lot of the atrocities in history. happened when the power differential was.

not as great. as as we're talking about with ai. potentially. is that not somehow worse than it's not. obvious to me. it's not obvious that things that are. way more powerful. that's fair okay so i think i i think. you're i guess how do you restrain it. though. uh there there's a lot of different. discussions of how to. uh i just even restrain each other. because let's say i go and decide to. strike someone's child which i'd like to. think i wouldn't do. yes i will be promptly i will find. myself in front of a judge. and so i feel like there's a lot can you.

imagine how many people used to get. murdered. just in the woods yeah i mean i would. just presume it's a lot. you know and i don't think most people. are lunatics like that but i would just. say that's the point. if you're given though if you're given. to that your ability to get away with it. was was greater in the past because a. chance of detection was less. so does it i don't know this is what. that's called an artificial intelligence. ai safety research. called value alignment of ensuring as. you build. the the systems that become smarter and.

smarter and more powerful and powerful. make sure that their values are aligned. with the entities. over which they're becoming powerful. with with humans so if you were to talk. to an ai that's becoming smarter first. it's dumber than unit but it's becoming. smarter and smarter. you have to create mechanisms. where you both value the same things i. guess one thing i wonder. so i guess i'm probably not like sharp. enough to grasp this if i'm honest but i. guess like i wonder like uh.

i used the chess programs um you know. was deep blue. stock fish and then like alpha zero and. alpha zero teaching itself to beat. stock stockfish without any help in four. hours yeah yeah like. it becomes orders of magnitude more. intelligence than us in effectively. an instantaneous period i guess what i. always wondered like uh. if you were that much smarter than me. i feel like your ability to manipulate. me would be pretty significant or at. least potentially you know. but manipulation.

implies that the incentive is to. overpower. everything around you like there's. implied incentives. if your value is to actually. like uh it depends what you want in life. okay what you want in your system like. it's it's not clear. that the goal of an ai system that's. all-powerful is to destroy. all humans no i don't think that i don't. think that it is either i guess we're. going to even enslave all humans.

that's fair i guess what i'm trying to. suggest is that something adequately. powerful. these these actions are on the table yes. they're on the table and that's scary. and that's why a lot of people are. really concerned about it and are. working on it i'm just trying to make. the case. for agi because if they're watching this. he's the one to kill uh no actually i. was thinking i was uh. yeah i i watched toilets like. really well no i mean. that that's the main concern for all the.

people in the aic to research. people talk about agis it's. uh it's kind of disturbing how little. people. are working on trying to. create mechanisms that keep ai's values. aligned with ours. that's completely unshocking yeah we. we humans seem to do only good when like. you know you even look at like. coronavirus it's like when. like the water has to be leaking from.

the ceiling. you have to be there fine fine blood. everywhere fire. just destruction we do we just seem to. ignore. completely and all over the wall. riding all over the wall this is fun. nothing to see here we'll be okay but we. do all right especially in the united. states you figure out. even when this becomes a really serious. problem. taking actions last minute there's. something about the innovative spirit.

that results in a solution last minute. right before the deadline it works out. well i mean how i don't know how you did. school. probably a lot better than me but that. was how i did school i couldn't be mo i. was no motivation up until like the last. you feel like we have 22 hours to do the. entire semesters of work. like let's do this yeah and you get like. 19 freaking mountain dews and then uh. yeah well that's that's why you and i. are failures in life because i just. talked to i. mentioned cal newport uh with his book. uh deep work and so on he is of the.

variety of these creatures that. basically does everything ahead of time. that's shocking because he. this dislikes the he thinks it's. unproductive. uh to experience the stress and anxiety. of the deadline. because you're just you're not going to. be your best performance wise. and you're not going to do the best work. so it doesn't make any it's completely. irrational. to uh to a function based on the. deadline you should have a system a.

process that gets stuff a little bit of. stuff done every day. so like you should be and constantly be. systematically honest with yourself if. you say i'm going to get this stuff done. today and this week. at the end of the day at the end of the. week you have to then reflect on what. you did who you planned. and improve that plan update it. constantly update every day every week. every quarter whatever those durations. are uh. as i'm listening to this and reading his. stuff it's like oh. yeah i agree with everything i'm like. yes i'm clapping. but like the reality is and then i'd go.

back and just eat cheetos and like. don't do shit until like blasphemy and. cheesy. but actually like again not that it'll. ever matter not that it's ever going to. matter because he's so shockingly. productive and well thought out that. whatever i've decided to think about. trying to monkey wrench in there is uh. is definitely going to be able to deal. with but it's funny that again because. you're a human being. not a god all of your strengths are you. have a corresponding weakness. the less you practice working under the.

gun the less comfortable you are working. under the gun the more practice you have. working under the gun the better you get. it the downside is you're always working. on the gun so you're less productive or. it's like your work quality maybe drops. so it's an interesting thing it's like. it's almost like hey i wonder if this i. wonder if. khabib nurmagomedov has a lot of heart. and i'd say the answer is almost. certainly yes. but you go well he hasn't struggled a. bunch maybe he doesn't struggle well and. it just so happens that he can also work. under the gun really well he just. doesn't like to do it. yeah but uh yeah but it's an interesting. thing it's like i guess what is it the. aristotle we are what we repeatedly do. we are all.

we're all practicing something all the. time so i guess it's it's funny. i guess that's a question that i have. though i would love to ask him. really neat is uh in certain jobs i mean. obviously you want to have preparation. always always but certain things have. like a degree of like. entropy in the system and you go i need. to practice working under the gun. and i'm not saying that's what i need to. do because fighting it should be for the. most part it's a really sterile. environment the grand scheme of things. like fighting in a cage is very sterile. compared to most other things in life. right.

but dangerous but sterile and uh unless. of course like you know. like the other guy the ref decides to. hit you should be hilarious but um. anyway i guess just going like okay so. at what value do you get. out of adding a degree of let's say you. could even be planned by someone else. but junk in the system and you just have. to work under the gun to make it happen. let's say for instance for like. police or something like that the. situation turns left hard. at some random point in time that could. happen to. any number of people so i guess it's.

interesting things that allow for. perfect planning or quasi-perfect. planning versus things that are. inherently unstable. and then what are the what's the. psychological fallout of comfort with. that. because i think a lot of people that are. really comfortable under the gun. let it happen a lot for all the good and. the bad of that does that make sense no. that. totally makes sense it was i mean his. answer would be. that you have to be honest with yourself. if it's valuable for the your success. to practice being under the gun and then. you should schedule that john then he's.

smart you should plan that. you should systematically and then as. opposed to doing it. half-assedly because it's as opposed to. letting the environment choose. the randomness like control the. randomness to where. like you optimize it i was just it's so. efficient it's shocking just to hear. about it. yeah no he's he's i mean the same way. you are he's annoying in the same way. which is like he he drops. truth bombs it's like yeah yeah that's. so true. yeah we're probably comparably you know.

doing that you know. but he's so he his profession requires. that so he's not just like a. motivational speaker or whatever he. uh he's a a computer science theoretical. computer scientist and. he needs the long hours in the day of. doing. like serious math so it's mostly math. proofs and. for that you have to sit and think. really deeply it's like really hard work. compared to like uh what most people do. like. even when i i mean what i do like.

programming is way easier than. rigorous math proofs because you have to. basically have this machine. and you have to uh your brain to churn. out. logic in a focused way while visualizing. a bunch of things and holding that in. your brain. and holding that for 10 minutes 20. minutes hopefully several hours. and you're not just like doing homework. you're doing totally novel stuff so like. stuff that nobody's ever done before. so you keep running up against the wall.

of like fuck this is a dead. end oh no wait is this a dead end and. like that whole frustration. that's serious mental work that's like. incredibly difficult mental work so he. knows what he's talking about that's. something. that's amazing but like you said he's. like this seems like the standard for. the quality of work that he needs is so. high so. almost anything less than this level of. systematization and organization would. preclude it right so he can't. afford the kind of bullshit that i don't. know about you but that certainly i do. which is like last. deadline kind of stuff because you can't.

do that kind of work. uh uh last minute on kind of stuff so. my question for him in general is like. and for you and i. is like well here's these negative. patterns that we do. of like doing shit last minute and so on. is this just who we are now or are there. some. i don't think i'm really big into a free. will you know i was thinking that it's. mostly predestination. at least in this regard it's the same. with like communism like as long as it.

fits my. uh whatever is the lazy thing to do i'll. i'll just not believe in freedom yeah. i'm not a congressman opportunist or uh. yeah that's when. that was i'm an opportunistic communist. and capitalist i just do whatever. whatever is cool at the time. exactly uh let me ask you um. to examine some fundamental principles. of a particular thing that joe rogan. brought up to me several times online. and offline okay. which is that he thinks that.

the tie that i wear okay is. something that makes me uh vulnerable. to attack that you sh should be the. reason he doesn't wear a tie is because. he can get choked. very easily with a tie it's a big. concern. okay my contention. and by the way he wore a suit last time. too uh he didn't wear it on the podcast. he wore it for dinner later. yeah i wore a suit the other day and i i. had uh no socks on i didn't realize.

yeah you're supposed to wear socks yeah. that's that's my understanding why'd you. wear a suit did you go to court. no no and i didn't know no. yeah i don't know i just wanted to play. i wanted to pretend i was an adult for a. day. okay cool yeah so uh so. my contention is like the jacket. everything is more dangerous than a tie. that's kind of where i was going with. that that's kind of where it was my. first thought too like if. once the tie becomes an issue like yeah. like everything else is already. it's already an issue yeah because the.

tie to me now without like messing with. it now is. is to me has some of the. similar problems that a belt does so. like for example i don't know about you. maybe you can correct me. but i'm not sure you can use the belt as. tied. you know i know there's some kind of. guards you can probably utilize the belt. with but. the belt sorry when it's tight around. the waist and we're talking about a belt. belt or a keyboard it's a g belt okay.

sorry. but importantly it's it's not that great. of a thing to use. in most cases i would say because it. slides. it doesn't you can probably invent a few. interesting. ways to use it as leverage as control. and so on. but there's just so many more things. around that are better built better. better yeah and so for me the time when. people don't realize. i suppose are we trying to sell a dvd.

here and have some some widgets and. bells and whistles because in that case. the belt is really important part of. what we do and i would really encourage. you guys to look into it yeah. uh if we're trying to actually like. learn something and say. like you said we're surrounded by better. options well that's the thing i mean. it's not obvious to me. that the belt maybe there's actually. undiscovered things about using the belt. you know i think people have used like. like putting a foot inside the belt. somehow. inside inside the keyboard there's some. this is a no punches ski grappling. situation yes. okay yeah i guess so it's already fairly. contrived right but with punches too.

like is there. okay let's let's talk about a street. fight with a belt that's like a jeans. belt like a belt clothing belt okay so i. get to take it off and whip them in the. face of the buckle. how serious is this street fight are we. talking about like they're nice no. beat up or are we talking like no like. death like one of you has to die. oh yikes whoa okay oh you you ever. like i i'm in this situation all the. time. and there's a reason i'm still here i. had something. i saw we tried to fight with the. starbucks we were talking about power.

differentials yeah. hey beat up kids all the time just pick. the easy w you got to get the ecws you. want the hardware. i'm undefeated come around the. playground watch what happens no like to. the. to the death what is their clothing. that's useful. you know they're from my perspective for. your use or their use. uh both am i used to their use no like. i like how you want to take the belt off. and use the buckle to hit them with but. first of all how you're gonna take off. the. like the belt well there's a lot of. effort involved in. unclothing well what i was figuring was.

when they started to see me take my. pants off in the fight they were like. what they're going to pause and rethink. the situation for a second. yes and i'm making dead eye contact. obviously yeah exactly. nodding and then you know by the time. they realized you took a belt off until. you could whip them with it yeah you. actually you're already. one possibly two steps ahead okay so. fine let's not talk about your own. clothing let's talk about their clothes. okay i'll take off their belt and hit. them with it. no but that's that's much harder no. question but if you can do it oh i'm. maintaining i got no. i just shit how did it come to this.

there's alt but the point is there's. alternatives that are. perhaps more effective yeah in my. perspective this might be clueless. there's almost no clothing that's more. effective than. almost assuming the situation is no gee. grappling. like i feel like clothing particularly. when you start to add hitting. like every single time i start grabbing. your clothes if you start you start. hitting it's not like nothing could work. but. most of the time you're like why am i. not using my arms for something better. than what i'm doing them right now.

right yeah it's very difficult for me to. i don't know in terms of just distance i. can't imagine a case of different. distances even like situations where. let's not talk about like like a. situation where you haven't both yet. agreed that a fight is happening. solid clothing's nice if they have it on. then i mean solid clothing oh yeah like. something like a good jacket because you. can. snatch somebody on their face yeah you. know it's like if you if you took my. like you know like he snapped down in. judo like how easy it is to snap down a.

beginner. yeah it's like so i agree with you. actually a tie in that sense might be a. really effective way to snap down so the. snapdown is really powerful to change. the. like disorient the situation and give. you a lot of different opportunities. for you know taking their back taking. them down. doing hilarious stuff like snapping them. down with their tie into your knee. and then when they come back up doing. this and you're already so yeah. in that sense i agree but not as a. choking mechanism because the effect. of joe had is a choke i think you would.

probably choke me with your tie more. easily than i could choke you with your. tongue probably i'm serious because like. if you get you can get like you get my. back and you can. put it around somebody's neck you know. like uh like like you ever see a die. hard. yeah yeah you remember when the super uh. swedish looking blonde dude or whatever. was was trying to choke bruce willis. with the uh. with the chain and then he ended up. getting choked himself with the chain if. i recall this properly. but anyway yeah like like that but uh. yeah i don't feel like i feel like if i. start grabbing your tie. you have too many other great options i. mean i do like the snap down that you.

actually made me realize no i think. you're. good there what's that i think you're on. the right path with it with a snapdragon. yeah particularly if you start with like. one of these like you know like. like you like you poke your finger in my. chest and then snap down real quick. oh yeah because it it also socially. speaking. it's not a threatening thing to just you. know to. to reach for the tide it's not. particularly like a business setting you. know i mean. they'll never see it coming yeah because. i was thinking choke. but it's not it's a really good leverage. point because like grabbing a jacket the. jacket will slide if you try to snap.

down. you really have to get a whole like a. really good hold well that's a good. point because around the back and the. neck what if it's a clip on. how much of a jackass would you look. like you feel like and then they just. yeah. they stick you one would you ever see. the uh japanese politician or i think it. was japan. yeah it was that guy is so he was so. calm and cool had. like it was ever it was beautiful. technique. the level of uh of actually the throw. was even gentle yeah but uh yeah it was. perfect it's amazing well executed yeah. more of our politicians you just toss. the shit out of it yeah we need more. teddy roosevelt.

exactly i like our politicians like. talking about fighting when it's clear. that none of them even. it would ever have been in a fight ever. yeah somebody was saying teddy roosevelt. is interesting. i didn't realize this as he's one of the. greatest presidents this country's had. and he was one of the greatest. presidents even though he faced. no crisis whatsoever he literally willed. himself. like nothing happened during his. presidency he's just a bad motherfucker. who made really great speeches yeah so. you like you know. uh this made me realize i was just.

talking to a historian that like. most of the people who we think are. great need also a good crisis that. they've. that reveal their greatness but muhammad. ali right this muhammad ali i mean in. sports. but but you know what i mean like the. circumstances what is greatness you know. i mean it's like you have to. it's not just your capacity it's what. you what you face right it's a quality. of opposition circumstance what you. overcome. so i guess what you're saying is joe. rogan is wrong about the thai thing. you know i don't want to go so far as. saying is wrong you know the man is not. here to defend himself maybe he has some.

things that i'm not understanding i'm. willing. he has not deeply thought that this is. my main criticism of joe he's not deeply. thought to this. and the mma journalist would be like. ryan hall says joe rogan is wrong and. hates ties. and has ties they'll integrate hitler. back in there. somehow nice what's uh you talking about. greatness. and greatness requiring a difficult. moment. in time can you like reflect back and. think. what are some of the hardest if not the.

hardest thing you've ever had to do in. your life. well you know i think i've had a bunch. of things you know i've had a lot of. things not going my way. um you know i've been incredibly. fortunate i've had a lot of things go my. way also. um but uh leaving leaving teamwork urban. in 2008. which i firmly believe was the right. thing to do. um is one of the uh. that was very difficult at the time not. like not a difficult choice but it was. uh because of. why i was leaving but um psychologically.

first of all. lost in general leaving yeah team a. family of all kinds doesn't matter what. the circumstances i didn't lose any. friends but i lost a lot of people i. thought were my friends. and i uh i lost training i lost i had. also had like a really serious my wrist. only does that. so like uh at a really serious uh. wrist surgery like that i didn't know if. i was gonna be able to compete anymore. after that i just got my brown belt that. was uh. it was a tough time like uh. psychologically physically everything. but i was very very motivated to do my.

best and to push through it and to uh. just to carry on in a positive direction. no matter what in a different direction. and uh we lonely this is the thing about. family even if it's an abusive family. leaving. it's tough people are complicated and. even people that i that i don't think. very well of that i think on the whole. i don't think very well of it's it's. unfair to paint them with one brush. um you know obviously there's greater. and lesser examples of that like the. person we discussed last time who's. an infinitely you know beyond almost.

anyone that we could ever imagine. meeting in our own personal lives. yeah yeah bloody elbow. yeah in terms of forgiveness and hate i. mean do you. do you have hate in your heart for for. people in your past. i don't know for that process no i mean. there were definitely times where i've. been. negatively motivated to prove people. wrong or to. accomplish things in spite and i think. that some of that is valuable if i'd be. lying if i felt differently. i think particularly uh i do really well. in conflict.

um i'm useless without the usual. deadline thing i'm used to yeah i'm. using. chaos i'm using i do i'm used to that an. antagonist i like fighting. i like competition i like being pushed i. like feeling like if i don't play well. i'm going to get hurt. i mean i have no choice but to play well. i'd play with everything i got at the. very least and i guess i would say. though. is uh you know as i've gotten uh you. know more time. and you know lived a little bit longer. you see. you know various situations for uh.

you know you know with increased uh. increased color i guess i would say. increased clarity and. uh you know there are a lot of. lessons to be learned even from from. times in history or bad experience that. we have and the question is can we take. those lessons and move forward. and that's again what i think we're. seeing and sometimes socially right now. we're forgetting important lessons of. the past and that's not good. not saying hey i don't get why we why we. could be going in this direction or that. i understand entirely but. hey let's not forget the lesson so we.

don't have to learn them again. because that doesn't really serve. anybody and anyway i guess i would say. i'm thankful for all of the. experiences difficult and otherwise. mostly difficult honestly most of the. times i remember i'm thankful for every. loss i've ever had. particularly the tough ones i'm thankful. for uh. you know for all the relationships many. people have taught me many things and. continue to teach them anything some of. them are still some of my closest. friends some of whom are people i really. don't get along with at all and some of. whom are people. i think really poorly of oh there's not. many of that last group.

what i guess i would say is uh there's. there's been a lot of. things and opportunities to learn and uh. you know. throughout that and also it's not as if. i've never done made any mistakes myself. now again. they're magnitude differences i like to. think and i can definitely say that none. of the mistakes that i've ever made have. been mistakes of intention. you know i've screwed up a lot of things. in my life but i can confidently and and. easily say that i've never. had ill intent towards people as i've. done it so you sit there like man this. is the right thing it's the right thing. and sometimes i've been wrong. but uh you know you never sit out with.

malicious intent and i think that. when i find that i think people do. things differently when i do think that. there's malicious intent i have a. difficult time forgiving that. how does love win over hate ryan hall. in this world we talk about social media. we talk about. forgiveness of uh some of the more. complicated people in your past. uh if we scale that to the entire world. before the ai destroys us and although.

the human race is lost. to history how do you think love wins. over hate. well i'd like to preface this by saying. i tried to make pancakes the other day. yes it didn't work. but i'm happy to comment on this so uh. basically uh. wow i i think like i think most of the. times. that that i can think of that i've. struggled. you know it's uh and can and the times. that i've read about is. being unable to see the humanity in.

other people and also. even in sometimes our enemies and the. people that have done awful things and. you go. what would allow people to do this that. or the other and that doesn't forgive. what they've done depending upon you. know some things are forgivable some. things are less so. but you want to understand why it's like. to our knowledge demons don't populate. our world. neither do like literal angels walking. around being actually perfect. a lot of times the things that it's i. find it deeply amusing. watching you know people hoisted by. their own batard on twitter even though.

it's gross and it's really unproductive. it's actually like equal parts amusing. and like awful because you're not you're. not happy that someone's being raked. over the coals particularly. unjustifiably. but it is funny when it's the exact same. thing they were raking others over the. coals for not like a week or two prior. and that's happened. repeatedly and will continue to happen. and i guess i would say. as you mentioned you know a uh prior you. know like a recognition of the humanity. of others of that. all of us make mistakes that it's. difficult to understand intention i've. had arguments with close friends of mine.

over text message. where both of us ended up super pissed. because we were completely. misreading what the tone the intention. of what the other person was doing and. even if i was reading it correctly. which i wasn't it's so easy to uh. ascribe the most. negative possible you know the least. charitable. assessment of what they're doing and i. think that that's such a dangerous way. to live your life and it's also just a. fruitless way to live your life. you know it's one thing to go hey why. did you do that i was pissed. did you what did you do you just you did. that to make yourself feel better like.

you damn right i did. and have i done that plenty of times my. life yeah i would lie if i said that i. didn't. you know uh why did why did you punch. that guy in the face he was going crazy. at me and hit me and i asked. him to stop and then i gave a warning. and i'd put him on his ass i'm like no. i'm not sorry. but then looking back now with years to. sit on him like. do i understand why i did what i did. absolutely. would i like to respond differently now. yeah i would you know it and it doesn't. mean that. i think plenty of things that people do. are understandable. doesn't mean understandable doesn't mean.

correct understandable doesn't mean that. you go oh yeah that's great you go i. could i could see someone doing such a. thing. but i guess just wrecking trying to. understand and see the humanity in. others. because if i can't see the humanity in. others how can i see it in myself. and also you know how am i meant to. interact with everyone as you said. whether. you know even if we're a society of. individuals for at least for the time. being hopefully. you know in perpetuity we still come. together as a whole. and watching it's weird like you said. it's if i only ask why once i start with.

stay out of my way and i'll stay out of. yours leave me the fuck alone you're. like okay. that's fine ryan but that's easy for you. to say living in a society that doesn't. actually function like that. so it's a little bit cheap but if i. recognize that that's step one is i. don't hurt you and you don't hurt me but. then we go well but how can i help you. that's step two and then it goes way. beyond that and a lot further than i've. thought about it but i guess what i. would just say is again recognition of. the humanity and others. and that we all have different strengths. we all have different weaknesses and. it's you can never really be sure where. the other person is coming from but if.

we approach things. charitably as charitably as we would. hope others would approach us. i think we'll do a lot better and i. guess one thing that i read that i liked. that i thought was accurate and. unfortunately disappointing was everyone. is a great. uh you know jury or their i'm sorry a. great lawyer for themselves and a judge. for others. and i think that's a terrible way to. live life even if it's an understandable. one. yeah i don't know what's happening and. then probably flipping that is the right. way to live. being uh being constantly judgmental of. yourself. and a defender of others and that.

results ultimately in. interaction that de-escalates versus. escalates. right yeah and you can you can we can. all live in a world like that and. sometimes you're like hey man people. that deserve punishment won't get it. like okay hey what do they say better to. have you know 10 guilty people go free. then one innocent person you know. burn and ultimately that is i think that. is a better world than the other way. around. and if all else fails uh. join the team that builds the ai that. kills all humans yeah obviously i mean.

if you have to be on a team pick the. winning team what. that's been the uh that's that's my. hiring pitch actually it's a good hiring. pitch. you're still taking resumes you want to. be on the team that doesn't die. during the great apocalypse not. immediately you want to be on the one. that that's. uh you know eventually long suffering. and stepped on right. yeah life is suffering ryan hall this. was an amazing conversation. i really enjoyed talking i could. probably talk to you for many more hours. i hope i do. as well ryan i love you buddy this is a. great conversation thanks for talking. today thank you so much for having me i.

really appreciate it. thanks for listening to this. conversation with ryan hall and thank. you to our sponsors. indeed hiring website audible audiobooks. expressvpn and element electrolyte drink. click the sponsor links to get a. discount and to support this podcast. and now let me leave you with some words. from frank herbert. in dune i must not fear. fear is the mind killer fear is the. little death that brings total. obliteration.

i will face my fear i will permit it to. pass over me. and through me and when it has gone past. i will turn the inner eye to see its. path. where the fear has gone there will be. nothing. only i will remain thank you for. listening and hope to see you. next time. you.