Roger Reaves: Smuggling Drugs for Pablo Escobar and the Medellin Cartel | Lex Fridman Podcast #199

The following is a conversation with. Roger Reeves, one of the most prolific. drug smugglers in history. He worked for Pablo Escobar and Jorge. Ochoa, the leaders behind the Medellín. Cartel. Roger was the employer and close friend. of Barry Seal, the infamous drug. smuggler who was the main character in. the movie American Made. Roger transported countless tons of. cocaine and marijuana covering six. continents. He escaped prison five. times, was shut down in both Mexico and.

Colombia, and was tortured nearly to. death in a Mexican prison. Through all of this, his wife Marie, the. love of his life, was there with him. And when he was in prison, she waited. for him. He recently got out of prison where for. many years he worked on his memoir. called Smuggler. This podcast is an exploration of his. story. Quick mention of our sponsors: Noom, Allform, Express VPN, Four Sigmatic, and.

Eight Sleep. Check them out in the. description to support this podcast. Let. me say a few words about Roger Reeves, Pablo Escobar, and the war on drugs. This conversation with Roger is unlike. any I've ever done. In the eyes of many, including the law, Roger is a criminal, a bad man who has added to the suffering. in the world. But he never directly engaged or. participated in the violence unlike his. bosses, Pablo Escobar and Jorge Ochoa. His crime was the transport of drugs.

I thought about this and about Pablo. Escobar, who was at once both a brutal. murderer and a Robin Hood figure who. helped the poor and was loved by. thousands, if not millions. We sometimes idolize murderers and. destroy good honest men. We give power and money to corrupt. politicians and dictators that starve. and murder their own people. Given this, I think about what makes for. a good man. and what makes for a bad man. and who decides.

Sitting across from Roger, I saw a. complicated man, but one who has kindness in his heart, a. love for money and adventure, and a disdain for violence. Again, his. crime was the transport of drugs. Since. 1971, the war on drugs has cost US $1. trillion. Marijuana legalization alone would save. and make $13.7 billion. That could send more than 650,000. students to public universities every. year.

Then there's the human stories of the. 500,000 human beings sitting in prison. for drug-related offenses and the 1.1. million on probation and parole. Their life is damaged or ruined beyond. repair due to the prohibition of drugs. There's a lot more to be said about the. damage done by the war on drugs. But when reading about Roger's story and. talking to him, I couldn't escape the. thought that while society wants to. label him a criminal and a bad human. being, there are much worse men out.

there who we give a pass to, even give. power to, even men who hold political. office or run companies. I also think about my role as an. interviewer. Sitting across a man like. Roger, in these interviews, in life, in. many ways I continue to be myself, a. person who like Dostoevsky's The Idiot. seeks the good in all people, but is. hurt by it on occasion and maybe is. destroyed by it in the end. I'm not naive, but I'm also optimistic.

and have hope for humanity. That's who I. am. And that's what these conversations. are. I hope you join me and I hope you. understand that I come from a place of. love. This is the Lex Fridman podcast and. here's my conversation with Roger. Reeves. You are one of the most prolific drug. smugglers in history. What would you say motivated you? Money, power, the thrill, or was it something. else? Money. But isn't there a point.

where you've had more money than you can. possibly know what to do with? Or was it. always more money? You know, I had plenty of money several times. And I. think it's sort of like if you was in. Las Vegas and you had the. slot machine handle down and the gold. coins was tumbling around you and you. had sweepers bagging them up, when would. you let it go? But isn't some part of that the thrill. then? Oh, there was a lot of thrill.

Sometimes way too much. You made. certainly tens of millions of dollars, probably much more. What memorable. experience did having that much money. make possible for you? So there's one. thing is the money. and the other thing is what that money. can buy. Well, I bought everything that I could. hide. I bought seven farms. I owned. the um. the city the land where the city of. Moreno Valley, California is. I had an option on that land, the the.

planning and development of that. Uh the. most expensive coin in the world. Um. yachts, ships, airplanes galore. Did that bring you happiness? No. In fact, I think I'm happier now. I know. I'm happier now. So looking back, would. you do it the same way. all again? No way. Really? Even the thrill of it? Not even. the thrill of it. It wasn't worth 33.

years in prison being away from my. lovely family. So money, what about the power? Just being on top of the world where. nobody can not the. the governments, the police, all the big bad agencies chasing you, and you could do whatever the heck you. wanted. As far as having to look over your. shoulder everywhere you did went and. every phone call you made, make sure. that you was naked with somebody in the.

ocean before you talked. It's rather uncomfortable. Yeah. Um I like to make phone calls the same. way. What um was it like meeting and working. with Pablo Escobar, the leader of the Medellín Cartel? He was just a just seemed like a. gentleman when I met him. He was just. like you and I sitting here, shook hands. and. I had flown one load for a fella. and uh it didn't work out well. The. fella that I gave it to got shot and it.

took a while to get my money and they. didn't put as many kilos on the plane as. they supposed to and. so I wasn't going to work with him. anymore and my contact down there. introduced me to Jorge Ochoa. And uh we went up and in Envigado we. went up and the gate opened and we was. escorted in. There must have been 50 men. out in the yards hitching rail on an old. house. and we was escorted right in. And there was a beautiful woman in. there. I mean gorgeous, dead beautiful. And she made us a cup of coffee and was.

ushered in to see Jorge Ochoa. And he had 12 telephones on his desk and. all of them was a different color. And. he shook hands, was very friendly, spoke. English. And uh he said that each one of those. telephones represented another a city in. the United States. This is Chicago and. this is New York. If I would ring, I. knew who was calling. And so we had chatted a while and he. asked me what type of airplanes I had. and what experience I had flying across. the US border and I told him he seemed.

uh. pleased with it and he called the lady. in and she went next door and in came. Pablo Escobar and he introduced me to. Pablo Escobar and he asked the same. questions again and uh. I answered him and I says uh. and I I asked him how much he paid and. they paid $5,000 a kilo to haul it. And uh so I says how much you put on the. plane? He says 300, 500. So that's 1 and. 1/2, 2 and 1/2 million dollars for an.

8-hour trip. Sounded pretty good to me. And we're talking about cocaine and. we're talking about Colombia. Colombia. and cocaine and Medellín Cartel. And. Jorge Ochoa was one of the what would. you say, founding members of the. the brains behind the whole thing. The. brains and spoke good English. Yes. And they were nice people. Really. nice people. Were you scared? Not at. all. What's wrong with your mind that. you weren't scared? Here's some of the most dangerous men in. this world and you weren't scared. Well,

I knew I was going to do exactly what I. said I was going to do. Marie and the. children was down there. They went down. and they stayed in the hotel five star. and treated royally on my first load. And I they just did as security to make. sure that I wasn't a DEA agent. So. I I did the first load and. they was they can say they were. hostages, but they really weren't. It. was just a insurance. So there was some integrity to the way. they operated. Completely. I mean. straight straight up. The money was.

ironed and band band banded. and just right and the and the numbers. were never once. anything wrong with it. What would you. attribute that honesty to? Within the. their own moral system and their own set. of rules, why weren't people crossing. the line and shaving off the top and and. in injecting chaos into the system to. where. it would be unpredictable and people. would be dishonest and greedy and all.

those kinds of things? That's true. Most. people are, but there's certain people. at the top of the food chain that they. don't need that. And if they're completely honest, then they don't have to think of. remember the lie they told. Mhm. And and. plus they're just honest to start with. They're they're they're making plenty of. money. They was making as much money as. I did. I uh. I'll tell you how that um that came. about. I understand that 10,000 people. were killed every year in Medellin, Colombia. And what they were doing, they didn't.

they didn't have any organization. And. if one fellow had 10 kilos and he wanted. it shipped to New York, he would tell. his friend and his friend said, "Sure, I'll ship it. I have a pilot and I'll. ship it up." And then he would look in. the newspapers, "Oh, 40 kilos was busted. in New Jersey. I'm so sorry, yours got. busted." Bang bang, he's dead. So, here comes Jorge Ochoa and the three. Ochoa brothers and Pablo Escobar and. Gacha and they decided that we will make.

an insurance company. That we would charge you $10,000 to take. it to your contact in Miami. If it gets lost anywhere between the. time I put it on the airplane or at the. time you give it to us and the time we. give it to your man, we will replace it. in Colombia for you. So, there was no. way anybody could lose. And I understand. they got 100 tons piled up. under that insurance program. And I was. right there the first day.

So, I had all the work I could do. I would land in this I said, "When do. you want me to come back?" "We waiting. on you, senor.". Well, let me ask you a difficult. question. Some see Escobar as a brutal. murderer. and some see him as. maybe a Robin Hood-like figure who. helped the poor. How do you see the man? Both of them. I think he started out to be honest. would help the poor. And then they had a. war down there and they blew up and. killed his people. and the country was divided almost.

equally three ways. They had the uh. the military. They were just as much into it as. anybody and then you had the FARC. guerrillas. They had about a third of. the country. And then you had the contras. It was. like white farmers. and they're the ones that I was dealing. with and they were at war with one. another. And so. if one of them started killing their. people, "Well, I'll kill some of yours, too.". So, that that's how it happened. And. then when I heard about Pablo Escobar. blowing up that airliner and killing.

those women and children, I was sorry I. ever shook his hand. That's that's brutal murder. So, you would say. Escobar is not a good man. Not at all. It's terrible. Now, looking back on it, but when I met. him, he was good. He did just exactly what he said he. would do. Could he be a bad man and a man you can. trust? Absolutely, you could trust him. Yes. So, from your perspective, in terms of.

business, he was reliable, he was honest, had integrity, you could work with him. And you felt safe. Completely. We flew up in to his ranch and he. he brought out motorcycles to start. with. He said, "Can you ride a. motorcycle?" "Of course I can ride a. motorcycle." So, I took off across the. grass and there was a little ditch there. and the front wheel dropped in that. thing and I must have slid across that. grass 20 ft before I got stopped. He. almost fell off his of his bike waiting.

cuz they knew what he was going to do. And then we got on horses and we went. out there and pretended type to round up. some cows and he put a Mac-10 machine. gun pistol over my shoulder. "Do you. know how to use this?" Well, I never. had, but it was all right. I think it. was like, "Okay, you got 10 bodyguards, what do you need me for?". So, that's kind of time we laughed and. talked and drove some cows over the. stumps. You said Jorge Ochoa was perhaps the. brains of the Medellin Cartel.

What was he like? And. why do you say he was the brains? Well, he was a gentleman. And I suppose he. shipped I don't know telling how many. more times of cocaine than Pablo did. Just and him and his brothers, you could. tell by the they had on each each a. load. They was in duffel bags. And this big football-shaped uh. fluffy stuff made with ether. And uh. they would have three horns on it or a. rattlesnake or four X's on each bag. You.

kind of got to know in which was which. was which and they shipped a lot. So, um and he was just a gentleman. I. took my family, we went one weekend to. his ranch or his uh. palatial place out near Barranquilla. And all. we he just treated the family and his. family had a his younger brother rode. with made a bullfight and. we had uh. skiing and. little airplanes on floats on on the.

water. It was really nice and he was really. nice. How do you make sense of the tension. that a man could be a gentleman, can have integrity, but also be a. murderer? Well, murder. is is a is a stronger word than killing. Can you explain the the the line, the. gray area we're talking about? I mean, I've just talking with Jocko. Willink and we talked a lot about. killing in the context of uh.

military conflict in the context of war. So, there there's a line between murder. and killing that you can draw. What's. the line that you're referring to? It's. something similar. If you if people. shooting at you and you shoot back and. kill him, I don't that's not murder. whatsoever. That's a uh. he's trying to get away or or out out of. the situation. But if uh. someone don't pay you and you send a. hitman over to. to kill her and her children, that's. That's murder. That's murder. Was Jorge involved in.

those kinds of things? I don't think so. at all. It just I mean, he was he was. just such a gentleman. He had a a. restaurant before and and he was just. smart. I understand that the first 10. kilos he sold, he was sitting on a on a. motorcycle in the. in the sidelines in a parking lot when. the DEA come in, he sped away. So, he didn't come back to America. He. was just smart. Some people just have. are savvy. And he was such a gentleman. and the whole family, the mother and the. father, the two brothers, their sister. They were I was there when she was.

kidnapped. And. uh finally he kidnapped our our. I guess 100 leaders of the FARC. and uh. said, "All right, when she don't come. back, none of these are going to come. back.". So, they made a deal. Is there something you can say about the. power structure, the hierarchy of the. Medellin Cartel. that you interacted with? Was. was it a dictatorship or Pablo ran. everything? Was there a bunch of power. centers? Was it like a company where you have.

CEO, CTO kind of thing and then there's. like managers and all those kinds of. things? What's the. like how did it run from a leadership. perspective? I understand that about five of them got. together. and made this I would call it an. insurance. company. And now known as the Medellin Cartel. And I didn't see any difference. Each. one of them had their own business. And uh. their people from the jungle or wherever. made the cocaine, gave it to them and.

they shipped it. And so, it didn't it. didn't seem to be any any power play. between them at all. But my main contact was Jorge Ochoa and. Pablo Escobar was right there and I sold. plenty of stuff for him, too. It's strange that they didn't betray. each other. regularly. You know, greed makes men betray each other. How do you explain that? How much betrayal did you see? I didn't. see any. Absolutely none.

If if he shipped his 100 kilos, he got. paid for it. And the other one uh shipped his, I'm. sure they got paid for it. How do you. explain that? Well, there was no need to. The money. was just unbelievable. You think about. 500 kilos in the plane. at $50,000. a kilo at the time. And they paid $5,000 to ship it. And they made 5,000 without even. touching it. They just had them somebody.

to load it onto the airplane. I gave it to their man in Miami. They. gave it to whoever it belonged to by the. uh. by the marks on the duffel bags. So, they was making just untold millions. Just uh. no reason. But greed can blind men. I. you know, it's still. it's still strange to me. that there was not more betrayal. It it speaks to something else perhaps. that's bigger than money.

Um may maybe. maybe not. But it seems like just like in the. casino like you mentioned, uh we um. get accustomed to the whatever level of. money we have, we get accustomed very. quickly. Yes. And then there's a tension. that's natural between human beings. and when. that tension combined with money, combined with power, combined with like. you mentioned beautiful women. and a bit of violence, it seems that um.

betrayal should be commonplace. But it's not. It wasn't not at all. Like. Carlos Lehder, I don't know if he betrayed anybody, but. he started that he was running cocaine. through the Bahamas and he had the. island. I I didn't go. I was offered to. fly with a DC-3 with that, but I didn't. like it. So, I had my route through the old wells. in Louisiana. And so, I I didn't want to change. But. he he talked a lot and I don't know if. he betrayed, but they didn't like him. Yeah, so as you expand, there could be.

tensions that. that lead to conflict. Colombia was like. you said an ultra-violent place. How did you survive? Who protected you? I was a hero. They they liked me. I. mean, I was just treated royally. All I. did, I would come over El Banco. There's. a radio station at the forks of the. Magdalena River. I believe it was 7:20 if I remember. right on. the AM. And I'd fly in at 10,000 ft and. I'd see below me there'd be a Cessna.

And I'd wiggle my wings and he'd wiggle. his and I'd fall in behind him and we. might go 100 200 mi and I'd land on some. jungle strip or some. uh. banana plantation. And they'd fuel me up. I could eat. steaks, spend the night. It was just. like treated royal and I mean. take off in the next morning and. whenever I wanted to. It was just like. that was protected and I was I was. honored guest. It wasn't anything like in that movie. putting you putting a gun to your head. and taking your sunglasses and and.

betting so one time I uh complained to. um Aurelio Ochoa that the runway was. pretty short that they were using. And I. went back down there and it looked like. Los Angeles International. They had had. bulldozers in there. Had that thing. 5,000 ft long. It just like it just the. next week it was all done. The jungle. was gone and clay put up there and. And all the while you were not afraid. You were treated like royalty. Yes. There I was. I was afraid when I landed. in the United States. Well, maybe let's. go back to the beginning.

What was the first time you uh flew an. airplane with drugs on it? Tell me the story the first time you. smuggled drugs. All right. I uh. I flew down to Jalapa, Veracruz with a. Cessna 182. And uh. we landed at the town. It was a lovely. town and it was just an old town looked. like Bible times. People women were. washing their clothes in the streets and. I with stone basins in the stream. running through. I just was just uh. dumbstruck. It was just so pretty. And I.

went in a church in a Catholic church. and it had the stations of the cross all. carved magnificent. I'd never seen that. And I come home and told Murray about. that. That would just almost brought. tears to my eyes. It was so beautiful. And 3:00 the next morning I went out to. the airport and taxied down to the. taxiway and there was a guard came out. And uh. wanted to know what I was doing and I. pulled out I was on the I was on the. fire department at Redondo Beach, California. So I pulled out my wallet. and in in it was a fire department badge.

and oh he shook my hand was so glad. So I taxied on down there and we loaded. up about 400 lb in the plane and uh came. on back and I was uh running to. headwinds more than I thought and I. landed on a little strip. You were talking about on the way back? On the way back. On the way north after. we loaded up early in the morning. And I had for only time I ever got. vertigo. The mountains were coming down. at a a 30 or 40° angle and the uh Milky. Way Way was overhead and somehow I. wanted that airplane to be level with.

the stars. And it got it got me and it's. phenomenal pilot has vertigo. It's the. only time I ever had it was on that. load. So anyway, the wind was on the. nose of that Cessna. I wasn't going to. make it to the dry lake where I had. fuel. So I landed on a little bitty strip and. there was a a little house that was. caved in and there was a little boy. named Lazarus about 6 or 7 years old and. he was herding some goats. So we put the marijuana in that house. and the man stayed with it so while I. flew into some town and got fuel and. came back and we sit down with the lunch. that I brought back and little Lazarus.

sit there and ate with us and we had a. good time. We loaded them back and came. home. Oh, wow. I wonder where he is now. What what was it like to fly maybe. describe the details of Jeff to fly low? Um is there details that are unique to. this experience of flying an airplane. with drugs on it on board? All right. Well, one of the mistakes that just. thousands hundreds and hundreds and. thousands of pilots make they don't stop. at the border going down and get their.

permit. Once you get a permit to be in Mexico. you've got it for 6 months. You can go anywhere any fishing village. any little town any little place show. them this and you're welcome. If you. don't have that you go straight to jail. So you go down there and you think okay. they're going to have fuel for me to. come back and so forth. Oh sorry senor. that was uh had a rusty leak in it so we. don't have any. Well, you better be able. to go to town and get it. Yeah. So uh. that's what I did and when I was coming. back for several years I would fly uh.

fly up at Mexicali and cross the border. right at Calexico just I would act like. I was landing on the Calexico side just. after dark. Then I'd zip across the. border and I'd go over to the Salton Sea. and go below sea level 100 and something. feet. I believe 170 ft and come on up. and go out there and uh above Palm. Springs and land out 29 Palms in the. desert. And put my stuff under a Joshua tree and. fly into town and get my pickup and. going back out and get it. And that was.

fun. And then it got really dangerous. They. had a Operation Starlight I believe was. the name of it and they caught a lot of. pilots coming across the border. So I changed it and by that time I was. flying bigger planes. I was flying Beech. 18s. And I would refuel in Mulege on the. halfway down on the. Baja Peninsula. And then over in the middle 20 mi from. the nearest road was a was a goat ranch. where they milked goats and made cheese. And I would go there and unload the load.

coming up out of anywhere in southern. Mexico. And I'd land there and a guy named Juan. would uh. we'd put the put the marijuana under the. trees and I'd fly into Mulege and they'd. wash my plane and. gas it up and I'd I'd eat lunch and rent. a room for a few hours and take a nap. and a shower and then go back in the. afternoon and and fill up. And then I. would go northwest out of there and fly. 200 mi off the coast of the island of. Guadalupe. And from there I would fly on a more. northwestern heading about 300 mi out.

over the Pacific. And then I would come in behind the. Santa Barbara Islands down low and then. I'd come up and go out in the desert and. land. And uh I did that for the rest of. the marijuana trips. What was the hardest part about flying. those routes? The hardest part was. getting good marijuana. So the hardest part isn't the flying. The hardest part is the flying. It's. just like driving your car down. But. then I had people that would bring me on. strips that were just unworthy of an.

airplane. Like when the I'd land on a. highway. Yeah. And uh. and in and in the rainy season I'd come. back to land again and the guy would it. wouldn't think about it. You'd have like. little hills on both sides and the. the wings were out there. Well, the the. grass and the weeds would grow up and it. sound like. I mean it sound like tearing the. airplane apart when those wings hit. mowing the grass down both both. shoulders of the airplane. The weeds had grew up high in the. tropics. So some of that stuff was bad. and oh getting bad gasoline and telling.

me that this land here in the light and. and knock the wheels off when you land. Oh, you should have landed a little. further up here senor. There's ditch. down Yeah. That sort of thing. What what was it like landing on a. highway and and when did you have to. land on a highway? I landed on a highway. most of my life most of the times. In Mexico first time I went down there. was a place called Pichilingue. And they had a 900 ft strip. And uh I would fly down and I'd carry. gasoline wing with me and uh.

uh Murray and I would go to the grocery. store and buy all kind of little goodies. and candies and toys to bring to the. children. And uh. that sand strip in the in the bend of a. river. was just too short to take off with a. load. So there was a young man there. named Pedro must not weigh much over 100. maybe 120 lb and he'd get in the plane. with me. And he'd direct me 20 30 40 mi away to a. highway. And the people walk in and the people.

would pull out in a 2-ton truck with a. machine gun on it and. bunch of guys with their arms with just. and they'd block the road and then. another one would block it up about a. mile away. And I'd land right over that. truck and they'd load me up. Looked like. a bucket brigade with the marijuana. coming. I'd shake hands with all of them. and I'd take off right over the other. trucks. And sometimes maybe 20 30 40 cars lined. up. I went down I remember a. patrol car highway patrol car. with he didn't have his lights on. Took. off right over him. And then when I. started flying in Louisiana the bridge.

over the Mississippi River there were. several contractors that went broke and. that thing was out for years. And about 5 mi from the river was. flashing red lights and a detour. And then the swamp on both sides of it. in the middle of it were growing up with. 20 ft trees and that was like. an international runway from anywhere in. the world. So I landed on that and over and over. those red lights were just like the end. of a runway. And then the next morning. we'd go out there and scrub the marks. off the highway where I'd landed.

before daylight. Wow. Let's go to somebody you've known well. Somebody who is who's also a drug. smuggler is Barry Seal. Who is Barry Seal? How did you meet him? Barry Seal is a friend of mine. Uh. Murray and I and the children went down. in Honduras and we went up uh. Lake Yojoa I believe it was and we're. looking at a a ranch to buy. I was. looking for something in Central America.

where I'd have a a halfway place. Mhm. Oh, it was lovely. We stayed up there. for some days and our clothes got muddy. and we went in the river and all kind of. thing. So we got to San Pedro Sula. And uh we was going back to New Orleans. So uh we went to to the cleaners to get. our clothes and most all of them was in. there. And the guy oh senor they'll be ready. tomorrow morning. We're not ready now. Well, the plane leaves at 9:00 or. whatever. So I told Murray to. for her and the children to go into the.

airport because it'd be easier for one. just on a standby flight. So I went to the. um. laundromat for the clothes and they were. ready and they was a pile and when I put. them on my back and got in the taxi and. the old taxi we were driving with it and. I'd give him $100 to go faster and he. just blew his horn more rapid. Finally, we got to the airport, and I. jumped out and ran around on the tarmac, and here's a brand new 727 taxiing out. Oh, no.

So, I'm waving to the pilot, and he's a. young fellow. He waves back. Then I see Marie's face in the cockpit, and then the nose goes down where he. puts on brakes, and he laughs, and he. puts the stairwell out. And I run for. the stairwell, and he pulls it back up. and goes like a hitchhiker going to pick. you up and go go again. Then he put it out, and I got on, and. the whole crowd clapped, and I'm coming. home with that load of clothes. So, I go way down in the middle, and the. plane plane's full, and Miriam, our.

daughter, is about 9 years old then. And she was sitting in the middle, and. by the window was Barry Seal. Of course, I didn't know it. And I sat in the. middle. And uh we took off, and the wheels come. up with clunk, and then I got up about. 5,000 ft, and we had a little clink. clink. And she said, "What was that, Daddy?" And I said, "He just turned on. his autopilot.". And that fellow reached over, and I. looked and looked at him. I said, he he. looks like CIA or FBI something. He ain't supposed to be here. Clear blue. eyes, gentleman-looking man. And he.

And he said, "You fly these things?" I. said, "I got a few hours, mister." He. said, "I I fly them too" or something. other. And he said, "My name Barry. Seal." He reached over Miriam and shook. hands. And we got to talking, and uh I thought. there's no choice of seats on this. It's. just open seating, so but I don't. believe him one bit. And he started talking about he just got. out of jail that morning. Just got out. of prison. And I said, "Uh-huh.". And he told me he had been a pilot with. um. TWA and this and other.

And uh. he told me what what he was for and. this. So, we had a nice conversation for. a couple hours to New Orleans. I didn't. believe him. Yeah. So, he got off in front of us, and. what a crowd of people were to meet him. An old mother and a wife and little. children hanging on to him crying and. hugging and kissing. I said, "He was. telling the truth.". So, I reached over and gave him a a. little piece of paper. I had Marie to. write it out with our address. I said, "Barry, I might have some work for you.".

What was he in jail for? He he got. caught with 100 kilos of cocaine in a. small plane. And so, he's served a year. And that was uh from Colombia? I don't know where it come from. He got. caught in Honduras, probably refueling. But um. he'd been he'd been in prison down there. before for bringing explosives to the um. Cuban countries. And he lost his job with the airlines. And then later on, I found out he was. ex-CIA and George Bush Sr.'s protégé and. had a thousand parachute jumps and was.

there. He he was a hot shot mouth. There's a million questions I want to. ask here, but um. maybe can we linger on a little bit. longer. What was your relationship with. him like? You you were a drug smuggler, he's a. drug smuggler. Um. you're friends. How often do you guys talk? How often do. you work together? What was the relationship like? Well, I'll back up and just finish where I. started off there. He I I gave him a.

thanks, Barry. I may have some work for. you. I know I got some work for you. And uh. I said, "Just uh come up to Santa. Barbara." And so, I don't know what we. could do later. He flew out and went to. our house and stayed with us for a. couple of days, and I had a almost brand. new. uh Aero Commander 690B. That thing was. turbo prop, and it was hot. It's hottest. thing I'd ever had. So, I said, "Let's go, Barry. Let's see. what you can do.". So, I'm sorry I said that. We got up. about 10,000 ft,

and he was like one of them Blue Angel. pilots. He wrung that thing out. Yeah. And then I said, "That's enough." And. then um. he did a falling leaf. That's where you. cut the engines, and the plane falls. from side to side. I saw Bob Hoover do. that in the air show once. And that's. the only person I ever saw do it. And I. was my hand was white-knuckle hanging. onto the seat. He shut off the engine? Yeah, he shut off the engines and. landing flying side by side like this. How do you explain that? Was he just uh. a wild man, or was he sufficiently. skilled to where.

skilled. Absolutely. He knew what he was. doing. I can get a plane from one spot. to another, and I guess I'm known as a. good pilot, but that guy it was. aerobatic. So, anyway, he stayed with us a couple. of days, and then I told him I said, "This plane needs uh. needs tanking like I said, I got some. work down in Colombia needs to come back. to Louisiana, and I need 2,500 mi. range." He said, "I got somebody in. Mena, Arkansas do that and keep their. mouth shut." So, I gave him $10,000, and. he flew away.

And in a few days, he called me and. says, "Come to my house in um Baton. Rouge.". So, I went out to his house in Baton. Rouge, and I stayed with him for a few. days, and that plane was tanked. I mean, beautiful from stem to stern. I could. went from Bolivia to Canada with it. So, uh he was uh then I hired him to. fly. And uh he was funny. I paid him a. million dollars a trip. I paid him. $2,000 a kilo, so it's about a million. dollar trip. And I didn't get paid until. they the people received it. They had to.

ship it to Chicago and New York, and. then the money come back. So, it's it's. a couple of two or three weeks pipeline. Well, I was had to pay him before what. before he'd go again. I mean, and he. bellyached. I mean, he'd moan and groan. So, uh. one time I uh. I gave him a million dollars, and I put. it in a box real nice. So, how big is a. box that contains a million dollars? So, we're talking about $100 bills? It's not. very big. You can put it in a large. briefcase. It weighs exactly 10 kilos. Each Each.

bill weighs a gram, so you can weigh. your money and almost get it exactly. 20-something pounds is a million. dollars. 22 pounds. 22 pounds. Of $100 bills. But. in $1 bills, it's 1 ton, 2,200 pounds. We didn't even accept them. Were you the. one to introduce Barry Seal to uh Pablo. Escobar? No. I didn't introduce him at all, and uh he. and I our deal was that you don't meet. my people. I mean, we just kind of.

cross. You working for me to fly the. airplanes. So, he wanted these Panther. conversions, cost $400,000 each with. storm scope and radar. So, I'd bought. anything he wanted. What's that mean? Sorry to interrupt. Panther conversions. A Panther. conversion was a. these people called Panther. They. took everything out from the firewall, the instruments and all, and converted. them and put Q-tip propellers on them, four-bladed, and you very quiet. And the. CIA developed those in Southeast Asia. for running behind the lines. And that's.

where Barry had flown those things, so. he knew about them. So, I that's what he wanted, and that's. what we got him. How does that connect to Pablo? And so, he worked for you, and you got those. upgrades. I I think he flew about 30. loads for me, and then I got arrested. and was about a. for everything in the world. Got 35. years sentence. But let me back up a little bit. Barry. uh. was our friend. Uh Marie and I both friend. We should. pause real quick and say Marie is uh.

uh your wife, and we'll hopefully she'll. uh we'll convince her to join us in a. little. in a little bit. She's the love of your. life, and sort of she uh weaves in and. out of many of the stories that you. tell. Yes. She was there. She was behind. the scenes, but I kept her out of it. completely. And then also, you mentioned Miriam as. as a your daughter. Yes. Rick our son. was a was a baby. And I remember we went. out to the festival. It was my favorite. restaurant in Coral Gables. Oh God, it.

was good. And Barry knew about it. Anyhow, we went. out to dinner, and uh. so, we came back, and there was no. rooms. So, Barry will spend the night with us. So, he goes to our hotel room with him. We got two two big beds in the the Omni. Hotel, and he lays over there, gets down. to his striped undershorts and his. T-shirt, and he puts the baby up on his. belly and gives him the bottle, says, "Ain't that good, Rick? Oh, my my." And. he just feeds the baby. We laugh and. talk and Yeah. That's how close we were that we could.

all stay in a hotel room together. He said, And would you say he's a good. man? A wonderful man. A gentleman. Southern gentleman. Just He's looked. after his mother, his family, everybody. around him. Everybody loved Barry. He. just had a He had a little little smile. on his face always. So, you got. arrested, and then uh what happened to. Barry? Well, Barry knew the the people. that. unloaded. Of course, he sent the cars. down and all that. So, he met the. unloader, guy named Leto.

Luis Carlos Bustamante. A Venezuelan. And uh so, he just kept on flying. Mhm. But he uh yeah, I believe he had three. of my airplanes at $400,000 apiece, and. they owed me some money. Well, he. collected a lot of that and gave Marie. the money and put it in his safe and. took her to his house and all after I. got arrested, and sent a lawyer in. He. got me the best lawyer in the country. Albert Krieger. He was head of the. defense team for all America. Wonderful. man. Can you tell the story of the.

months that led up to Barry's. assassination? What What What What did you know? What. did you sense? What did you think? Okay, when I got out of prison, I hadn't been. out long. I was uh watch. eating breakfast, and there was Ronald. Reagan's. face right on the television. We have. absolute proof that the communist. Sandinista government is in the cocaine. running business. And there was that fat lady, the C-20. 126. on the runway with the.

belly in, and I thought, "Oh God, he had. done it.". So, I had heard that Barry might have. been working with him. So, it wasn't long. Working with. with the DEA or whoever. Yeah, he that. he had he was no longer on our side, you. know. Uh so uh can you clarify how you got. that from the Reagan. making a statement about we've heard. was his plane. There was Barry's plane and okay, on the. way north we could stop in Nicaragua and. land on the military base or on a.

a base that they used as crop dusters. and all and refuel. Yeah. And so that. shortened our trip to go further into. the jungle and come up and that was what. Pablo Escobar and Ochoa and him and they. had to they was associates with the the. people in uh. Nicaragua. So Barry was. if that plane was there, that means. Barry was feeding the DEA information. He was working with him at that time. But let me back up a little bit. When. when I was flying and I told Barry we. would we would refuel.

and change airplane the the loads in. Belize where I had a a spot up there and. then that's when the they told me we can. refuel in in uh Nicaragua. And then you. fly all the way and Barry couldn't. believe it. He says, "All right, but I wanted to. land I had a place in Louisiana for. $10,000 that I could land unload and the. sheriff and all of them was paid off.". And he said, "No, no, no. I can't get caught in Mena Arkansas." I. said, "What do you mean you can't get. caught in Mena Arkansas? You get caught.

anywhere.". He said, "I can't. If you're going to. but it's going to cost you $50,000 every. time our wheels touch the ground.". Why? Can you explain why he can't get. caught in Mena Arkansas? was hooked up with the with him to the. very top and he even said, "I'm going to. have dinner with the governor tonight.". That's at that time Mr. Bill Clinton. Mr. Bill Clinton. undoubtedly. And it's like did Bill Clinton did you. give him any money and I said, "No, I. never paid the man any money." But it.

was like the money that I had that went. to Grand Cayman Islands and I told my. lawyer I said, "I never touched that. money.". He said, "You don't have to fondle it to. be guilty.". So. So what I mean there's a lot of. conspiracy theories around the. relationship between Barry Seal and the. Clintons. Absolutely. What evidence do. we have? What what would you say from your best. understanding. um. of what was the relationship between. Bill Clinton and Barry Seal? Barry said.

and he knew that he couldn't get caught. in Mena Arkansas. And when that movie was going to come. out be called Mena. somebody stopped it. I mean they stopped it dead in the. tracks for two or three years and the. producer even quit. You mean the. American Made with Tom Cruise movie? It. wasn't. going to be called Mena? the name it was written and produced in. Mena. And. we waiting on Hillary to be elected they. they would not let that movie out. And that movie was changed drastically.

But to push back on that that doesn't. mean there's truth there. That means. they were worried about the power of the. conspiracy theory which stuck. Exactly. But how do you know? I mean you know. some some conspiracy theories just. because they're popular doesn't mean. they're true and ones that. but it also doesn't mean they're not. true and there's ones that are not very. popular that could be true. But that one. that one really stuck. Do do. I mean what's your sense? Well, I paid.

one and a half million dollars for Barry. to land at Mena Arkansas. So I was. pretty well assured that he couldn't get. caught. And I said, "Well, I can't get caught in. Colombia. We can't get caught in. Nicaragua. I guess we got license.". So we went for it. Oh, so when you say I can't get caught. just to clarify there's a there's a. sense where this is a safe place to. land. Yes, like completely safe. So you. don't think he was referring to some. kind of um. you know. like my grandfather who fought in World.

War II would talk about bullets can't. hit him. So it's almost like. believing He was taking that $50,000 and. giving it somebody. To somebody. And. Barry was honest so he wasn't just. taking it from me because he was making. a million dollars he didn't care for the. $50,000. Oh man. Taking the story forward. Uh the months leading up to his. assassination, what what what what do. you understand. why he was assassinated, what who were.

the players involved? Maybe could you have stopped it? Well, I'll tell you after I saw Reagan's. face on the television saying we have. the absolute proof. the phone rang and it was Barry. I. hadn't heard from him in a couple of. years. He said, "I'm coming out tonight, Roger.". And I oh boy. So uh. he came out and he said, "I'll meet you. in this uh French restaurant on you know. what in Santa Barbara.".

And I walked in there's about 20 or 30. people in there. And they's all 30 40 years old women. with. plastic or leather skirts and me in the. blue jeans and I looked around and Barry. was at the back. He was leaned up and. he'd gained weight. And I walked up and I said, "Barry, you. wired.". He said, "No." I said, "Well, I'm not. going to talk to these DEA agents." He. said, "Every one of them.". So Uh with jeans and skirts, I like it.

I said, "Well, Barry, I'm going to sit. here and you just talk to me, buddy, and. tell me what's on your mind.". And he sit there and he just went to. talking and he told me about. he was left holding the bag. And it uh. What do you mean by that? Like that. nobody's supported him nobody helped him. other. He was uh. And and I don't know this. I mean this. is just what what happened. putting it all together that he had some. CIA buddies. that was pretending we going to supply. all of our North with arms.

And with that you can land cocaine back. here by the ton. So he's taking his little planes and. putting some AK-47s and maybe ammunition. or whatever and takes it down to the. contras. against the communist party of Nicaragua. where we've been landing. And Oliver North was involved in this. So. uh. when the when all that and so his CIA. buddies was certainly. involved and we know they were.

And Barry had been in the CIA earlier. when he first got out of school. So uh. When when. as I say the shit hit the fan they all. fled and left Barry holding the bag. and the DEA. Yeah. Well, no not the DEA. the CIA. The DEA wasn't in on it. The. CIA was was selling that cocaine. bringing it in and uh. Just to clarify it. Uh what's Iran-Contra scandal? What was the alleged involvement of the.

CIA in. uh in using drug trade to fund things? What do you know? What do you think is true? What should we know? Well, I know what I know is true that. Barry was taking a small amount of arms. back to Central America and giving them. to. whoever Oliver North group group were. Who's Oliver. Oliver North was a colonel that got. implemented and almost brought the. government down. And so they said, "All. right, we're getting the guns from Iran.

and we're taking cocaine to pay for. them. Yeah. And since Congress won't give us money. to fight this war we going to we going. to. circumvent it.". So that was that was a whole thing. So. it was a CIA's effort to circumvent the. funding mechanisms of government by. you selling drugs. Yes, but it was a. handful of renegade CIA agents that was. Barry's friends. that was making a load load of money. tons of it come up. If you would like to.

read the book the the big white lie the. CIA and the crack cocaine epidemic. the CIA put according to this uh. uh the book in. Michael Levine I I didn't remember his. name last time I talked. Uh wrote that book and he was a head CIA. agent he was a head DEA agent that. exposed this. And the CIA tried to kill him and he. says they put crack cocaine they. developed their their chemist developed. crack.

and they put it in every country every. city in the United States in one. weekend. So they were bringing it up by. the tons and that's for sure and Barry. was bringing it. Can I ask you a small tangent question? Do you think. the public should trust the CIA and the. DEA? Do you think they're mostly good people. that are carrying out a good mission? Yes. Because this kind of makes it sound like. there's renegade agents that are just. doing whatever the hell they want and.

with sometimes no regard for human life. Well, that's certainly true but that's. not everybody in there. That's just. sometimes you get a few of policemen in. a in a department but that that do these. things. I I don't believe I believe that. our government is is good. I think we. got some fools running it. I don't know. how we get them there but uh. I don't think I know. Okay, so what what. was Barry's involvement here? So Barry Barry leaned back in that chair. and he told me. that you know he. he got caught with one and a half tons.

and he buried it in the runway in. Nicaragua. and uh. had cameras flashing inside and out. and then he flew it back to Homestead. with with an agent there and they. brought the agent over. Um. Jake Jacobson. Really nice fellow. I. think he was a crop duster. If we'd have. got along we'd have been on the right. side. And so we we sit there and drink. Chivas Regal until I got pie-eyed and. and Barry told me about it. He said that.

he went to see Edwin Meese. He flew his. he got out on bail and he flew his Lear. jet up to Washington and went in to see. the Attorney General Edwin Meese. And. they run him out of the office. The next day he went back and said, "I. have absolute proof. that the CIA is bringing tons of cocaine. or they're running tons of cocaine into. the United States." And Edwin Meese put. him up with his agent, Jacobson, I. believe it was. And they went down and. got 1 and 1/2 tons. And on the way back. they bellied it in and Pablo Escobar and.

some of the other ones on general there. in Nicaragua, you can see them. toting it from one plane to the other. It's called in the book called The Big. uh. Kings of Cocaine. It's got a mention of. me, too. And also the other one has a. mention of me in it. Said, "I'm in more files with the DEA. than Noriega.". So, who was wanted to get rid of Barry? Is that Is it the Who wanted to get rid. of Barry more, the cartels. or the CIA? The cartel.

But uh so Barry leaned back and he and. he he told me the story. And the tears. came down between his fingers as he put. his hands over his eyes. And he said, "I. I I just couldn't do it, Roger. I just. couldn't do three life sentences. So, I've told him everything. I went to. Congress and I've testified before. Congress.". And he testified before Congress for all. these things that he'd done. And he. said, "I told them all about you. But you're under my umbrella. You got to testify with me before a. grand jury in Miami. And so the guy said, "You can come. down." The DEA agent said, "You can come.

down tomorrow with Marie first class. or I'll take you down in chains.". And if you don't testify with Barry, the. only place you'll ever see your wife and. family again is in a federal prison. visiting room. Was that a difficult. conversation? Oh. Looking at him. My. eyes My guts was just like ice water. I. can't testify against my friends. I just can't do it. How am I going to do. it? I just I can't work with people and. they was honest with me. How am I going. to testify against them? I can't spend.

the rest of my life in a federal prison. What on Earth what a mess Barry you've. got me into. So, uh Is that a kind of betrayal there? Yes, but it's still I wish he'd left me. out of it. I understand him getting his. in such a mess that he told because of. if the CIA and whoever else was behind. him betrayed him, then he's going to. tell everything. If you So, I says, "All. right, I'll be to Miami." So, Marie and. I flew down. first class.

And I and I went to a lawyer, one of the. biggest lawyers in Miami. And I said, "Man, I am in a mess." Mhm. This fellow's told everything and I've. got to say something. But I'm not a snitch, man. I mean, I can. you help What what can I do? And he said, "Well, being a snitch is. like being pregnant. You either are OR. YOU'RE NOT.". UM AND HE SAYS, "I I DON'T represent. snitches, but if you want to fight this. case, I'll do it for $600,000.". And I Boy, my face turned red. Well, I'm.

not a snitch. He said, "Well, that's. what you're talking about." He said, "Let me tell you something. If you go in. there and say one thing and sign that. paper and you don't tell them everything. you know, Yeah. then they will convict you of. everything you've ever done and you tell. them. So, you can't do it.". So, uh. I said, "Barry, I I'm having trouble. with a lawyer." Give it to I'll go to. Marie. Let's go. So, all right, use my lawyer. And he. gave me his card, the lawyer's card. So, Marie and I went to the the Festival. Restaurant that night and Barry and. Debbie came in. She was dressed pretty.

and Barry wasn't. So, we started about. finished. So, we had dessert together. And I said, "Barry, they're going to. kill you, friend." He said, "No, they. ain't going to kill me. So-and-so. such-and-such is going and this and the. other." I said, "Barry, they're going to. kill you, man. Ain't no You can't deny. it.". And uh and I says. I didn't tell him I wasn't going to. testify. So, I I hugged his neck. I really like and we fled to Brazil. But. I took Marie and the children went to. Brazil. So, you decided there you're not. going to testify. I knew I was not going. to. I didn't know what I could do. I talked.

to a lawyer. I mean, I just didn't I. didn't know what what I could do, but. the best in Miami. What he told me. So, I had to go. And you went to Brazil. We went to. Brazil. have a conversation with anybody at the. cartel to. I mean, that's such an interesting. moment that tests a man's character. To not snitch. And. did you have a conversation with. anybody? No. Pablo with about it like.

So, it's just understood. I just didn't. couldn't do it. But how many men like you are there? Not. many. I had all my friends testified. against me. 11 friends and every one of. them put their finger up, "Roger did. it." And I was facing life, continuing. criminal enterprise case. And still you. couldn't do it. I just couldn't do it. Did you ever get respect from the. cartels for that? From the from the. people in the cartel? I got back and stuff. They owe me money. and I can't get it. So. Well, that's that's about money. I. just mean about human beings. Oh, I.

think so. I mean, I've been back down. there and I've been welcomed. I I have. my uh my contact. And uh when I was in. Brazil, I was trying to get this money. They owed me 3 and 1/2 million dollars. Mhm. So, I called up there and he was. going to pay me. Oh, I got 600,000 today. and I'll get you some more tomorrow. And. then the next week I called, "Hey, hey, got great news, great news. Barry Seal's. been killed.". So, oh no. And I went back to the hotel. We was up in. northern part of Brazil. And where was it, Marie? Rio de Janeiro.

Yeah. And so I went back and I told Marie and. Miriam and. and they cried and I cried. I really. cried. How How is that great news from. the cartel perspective? Well, now there's no case against me and. him and them. Do you know who killed him? Yes. I'll. tell you about that story. On the first load I did I landed in a at. a banana plantation. And it was raining. and it was a muddy strip, clay. And they put the the 300 kilos of. cocaine in the in the ugliest man you.

could imagine, name Ronaldo, got in. there with a Mac-10. And he would make. sure I took it to Louisiana. Mhm. So, This is many years before. Yeah. Couple of years before. So, anyway, he. uh. uh. We took off and the mud got up in the. wheel well so so thick until the wheels. wouldn't come up. Well, I'm going 200 miles an hour. instead of 300 miles with my wheel. coming down. Well, I can't go back there. If I do, I'm going to be in the same. situation until the sun dries it out in.

a few days. And so but in Belize I had a a runway. that we'd been used for $10,000 used to. refuel. So, I told the guy, "Listen, we got to. land in Belize to refuel." No, no, no. He put the Mac-10 in and and I. I'll shoot you. Go ahead, fool. You're. going to die, too. So, Yeah. What's in. the turf? He He wasn't just ugly. He was. also. He was a bad bad killer. Yeah. And so. he's the one that actually killed Barry. The one that.

went up on the first load with me. And Ronaldo and he's. doing life. just a killer. Yeah. He's doing life in Louisiana. I wonder. who. Is Is it known who made that decision? Uh the younger. Ochoa brother, I understand, Fabio. Which one paid for the hit? I don't know that, but that's what I've. heard and it probably sounds about. right. He's He's down in Jessup, Georgia. doing a long long time. I think he's. about to get out. He's been in 30 years.

or whatever. The movie American Made. What What do you think that movie got. right? What did it get wrong? Almost everything wrong. It was disgustingly wrong. Okay. Um which parts? Can you Can you um. Can you maybe elaborate. Barry Seal and it just didn't even It. was nothing Whoever wrote it had no idea. who Barry Seal was. They sit in a.

rocking chair and just try to think of. what what some baby bashing. drug dealer doing. Yeah. And it's just. like, "God, just you just don't have any. idea of the of the spirit of the man.". So, they wanted us to try tell a fun. story without actually. studying the story. He They didn't know. him. They just had no idea. And Barry. was such a nice person, such a really. nice gentleman person. They talked to. you or no? No. The people that made the movie. And I see all these people telling about.

about Barry, never met him. They telling. all about it. I think that's just. ridiculous. Yeah. And. uh that for one thing, his character. coming out of whorehouses and all that, that was just like ugly. And then. down in Colombia putting a gun to his. head, going to take his sunglasses. And. then they put 25 thousand million dollar. worth of cocaine on his plane. And then they going to bet $100 they. don't have enough room to take off. That's just insane. I mean, just just. the whole thing. And then he's talking. to the DEA agents when he's coming up.

You don't know what uh. frequency they on. He's got five planes. and they all split when the DEA comes. out. These are just somebody's. fantasy. But those are like those are details of. the man, details of the story. Is there. some big profound things they missed. about just this whole period? About that something that's really. important to you that was missed. Yes, they just tried to uh. sensationalize on little things that. people remember and it's just not true.

It's just It was just like a business. deal and and and and good people and. good airplanes and good flying and um. It was like a. a good watch that was made. It just. clicked and it just went on. And they. missed all that. They tried to make it. sound like it's something very ugly. Do. you think it was a story that could have. been told way better and still be a hell. of a good story? Well, there's a. there's a series called Chernobyl done.

by HBO. And because I have sort of. family connected to that period, um. you know, they did an incredible job of. being historically accurate. And only not being historically accurate. when it helped the story, only in those. rare cases when they on purpose left the. story to uh. to make it easier for people to. understand, but it was it was still. somehow accurate. Uh and even though all. the actors were British actors speaking. English with a British accent, it was.

still somehow accurate. Like they captured the spirit. Yeah. So. it was historically accurate and the. spirit was captured. That was one of the. most incredible like series I've ever. seen. It convinced me that. uh. the movie was made by non-Russians. It convinced me that if you really care. about a story, you don't have to have. been brought up in it. You don't even. need to speak the language. If you're. truly a scholar of it, if you talk to a. lot of people, if you learn, if you.

just pour your heart and soul into it, you can create something really special. And so your son says you could do that. with your with the with the story with. this period of time. Oh, yes. It was a. it was a. story that needs to be told. It needed. to be told in the correct way, not like. we're trying to bash a certain angle. Yeah. Well, if if Netflix or HBO are watching. this, you need to tell the story of. Roger Rees, in my opinion. There you go. Is this. young picture you? Yeah. There you go. That's from National.

Geographic. Jorge Ochoa, Pablo Escobar, that's you, Roger and Barry. Yeah. Smuggler. A memoir. Yeah, I I really do hope that they they. make a movie of this one. There's a movie called Blow that tells. the story of George Jung, Boston George. Did you know George Jung? That's one way. to ask it. The other is what do you. think of the movie Blow? I didn't know George Jung, but it was a. wonderful movie. Absolutely, it captured it. It did. Yes,

it did. That's the way it should be. So he was a little bit before your time? Exactly the same time. Exactly the same. Same. He was using Stewart Estes to fly. the marijuana out of. uh Manhattan Beach, and I was on the. fire fire department in Redondo Beach, 10 mi away. Flying it up, sending it back. Somebody was sending it. back. He might have been sending it. back. But he didn't have near the excitement. that I did. He I was shot down twice. I escaped from five different prisons. Yeah. Was tortured almost to death in a.

Mexican prison. So he didn't have all. that fun that I had. Finding quotes. Yeah, so yours is a is a heck of a fun. adventure. I'll just to linger on a. little bit. So uh Johnny Depp plays. George and Ray Liotta plays his father, and there's this son-father. kind of scene at the end. I don't know. It's it's heartbreaking. Like that scene. paints a picture of a life that.

could have been had. if none of this. wild drug smuggling happened. I get I don't usually. I mean, I don't almost I really never. get like teary-eyed in a movie, but that that got me. It's almost like. confronting at the end of your life what. your life could have been with your. father. The way he calls him Georgie. It.

uh. like you fucked up, Georgie. Yes, I did, too. I really really did. Marie. waited for me all those years, and the. children raised them without me. Visited me in prisons all over the. world. It's unbelievable. It's just. nothing's worth that kind of money. Yeah. Can you tell the story of when you were. tortured. nearly to death in a Mexican prison? I sure can, and I'm smiling, but it was. nothing to smile at. But I'll tell you.

I was a I was in a pool, and a gentleman came over and shook. hands with me and put handcuffs on me. And I thought, "What in the world?" That. was at one of the nice hotels. And they. put me in a. in a jail. cell, and I sat there, and all the. drunks and the thieves and stuff kept. coming in, and they had a bucket. They. had overrun. And I said I remember like 18 people in. a room about 12 12 ft square. Oh, it was hot, and I thought, "Somebody's got to come get me. This. This ain't real. I hadn't done.

anything." Just like. It was a pilot come to see me in up in. Hermosillo, and he stopped, and he made. a mistake and went to the international. runway instead of where he was supposed. to go. And he had my. phony name in his pocket, so they got. me. So they said I was a drug smuggler. So after about 3 days, they put me back. into the into the back, and it was. a torture place. And they put me in a. little cell. I I guess it wasn't hardly. it wasn't 6 ft. It must have been about. 5 ft square and about 12 ft high. And it.

was June, the end of June, and it was. hot. I mean hot. And uh. they left me in there for I guess a few. days. You didn't know they they uh. So every once in a while they'd come. drag me out, and first off they'd put my. head under water, and it had seltzer in. it or some kind. And I took one whiff of. that, and three or four of them couldn't. hold me down. So then I learned it just before you. have to breathe, tear loose like that, and they'll let you up.

And uh that was the first treatment. And. then they then they started a beating. me. And they beat me with blackjacks and. rubber hoses until I was black and blue. and yellow from the bottom of my feet to. my head. What did they want from you? They wanted to sign me to sign a. confession that I was a drug smuggler. And they put the papers under your under. your nose. This is all over if you sign. Well, I. knew if you signed, you got 6 years. I wasn't going to sign. I wasn't going to sign. So they didn't want you to snitch on. anybody. They just wanted to say They. wanted me to sign that paper.

And you still didn't? I ain't about to. I ain't beaten that bad. I said. And so anyhow, he's getting into the. good part. So then. they come and they take me out, and I'm. buck naked, and they bend me over, and. they have things to pull you like. chains. Click click click click click. And they bent me over, and they. put butter on my bum, and they commenced to put hot chili. pepper up there. Mhm. And that stuff was. bad. I mean, it was red hot. Mhm.

And that was. that was awful. And still still. awful. Yeah, but still you didn't. I didn't think about it. I ain't going. to tell you. I I guess if I'd have known he was going. to kill me, I wouldn't have done it, but. I'm but I wasn't about. You get hurt bad enough, you'll pass. out. So I didn't pass out, so I was all. right. So then the last thing they did was. they brought a a dead man in there, and. he was wrapped he was frozen. And he was. wrapped in newspaper, blue strips about.

a half inch wide, just like a mummy. And. he was frozen, and they hung him on the. wall with a meat hook. And uh God. You next, son of a bitch. You next. Yeah. And so he's sitting. there like this, and uh. as he starts to thaw out, which is. pretty quick, it looks like he's crying. And then it looks like he's peeing. And. the papers start unraveling on him, and. the formaldehyde puddles on the floor. Yeah. Woo, what a smell. That rotten. Yeah. insides and the formaldehyde. And.

there was a little. space. It wasn't even a half inch high. under the door. And I lay on that filthy. floor on my cheek, and put my lips right. up under that door, and was sucking that. fresh air, and I went to sleep after. some time. And I know where Walt Disney gets gets. his ideas. I saw white pink. with pigs with wings on them, all kinds. of stuff flying around. So when I woke up, I didn't know which. was real and which was. the nightmare. It took me a minute to. figure out. where I was and what was going on. How did you stay mentally strong.

through that time? Like what I don't know that I did. I. would. Yeah, I was mentally strong. So I was, just like I am now. Stubborn. I mean, you could be that man. They could have killed you. Yes, they. could have. So what gave you hope? Did you have hope? Yeah, I Or you're. just a stubborn son of a bitch. I think some of both of it. I think they. aren't going to keep you here forever. Yeah. You know, you're going to get out. into the prison, or they're going to let. you go or something. If you sign that. paper, you ain't going nowhere. And I. want to go home.

I got shot down. a few weeks before that. I got shot from. out of the sky. 80 bullet holes through. the plane. Killed a fellow on the. ground. Shot. shot the leg nearly off the man in the. plane. this? In that little place of. Pichilingue. You know that story. you from the ground. Yeah, yeah. All right. A little 900 ft strip there. at Pichilingue, a poor poor village with. starving donkeys. That's where they I'd. give them $17,000 for load, and I'd go. over on the highway and load. Well, on. on day 13, I did a load every day for 13.

days. They had a bunch of marijuana. pretty good piled up, and I was going. load a day. And on day 13, I had that little warning. sign going off in my stomach. Uh-oh. Uh-oh. Don't do it. But I asked this Joaquin, "Oh, we have the federales paid off. Don't worry." Well, so I spent the night. in a hammock, and walked down to the. airplane. just as it's getting daylight. And 10 or. 12 men walked with me, and Pedro got in, and I brushed my teeth in the little. stream. It was about foot deep, little.

river coming through there. Got in the airplane, and uh. I fired her up. Bam bam bam. And bam. I thought a tire blew out. I looked over and see if it was. And it still ain't dawned on me, and. Pedro's yelling, "Policia! Policia, Roger! Policia!". Well, it dawned on me, and I shoved it. the throttle to the firewall. And I only had. So that was a bullet? Yeah, somebody they they was off to the. side. shot. They'd shot. Just a warning. like get out, stop, we we going to rob.

you. Whatever it is. That's what they. do. It's taking the plane and me and put me. in prison, the whole thing. So, but I. even though I had papers. So, I just shoved it in the firewall and. there wasn't enough room to take off on. that strip and there's half of it was. behind me or some of it was behind me. And so, just at the end, I'm just like I. think that thing stalled at about 50. mph. Just just turning 50 and I just. pulled it right up. And put the flaps on and as I pulled off. the ground. they opened up on both sides of me with.

machine guns and they riddled that. airplane. I mean, the windshield came. out. I got hit three times. You like your body? Yeah. And uh. Uh but I didn't know I was hit. I mean, it was just the the gasoline the. gasoline just pouring in. The world. turned yellow. I must have went into. shock. So, it just stopped in slow motion. And one bullet hit this strut right by. my head and it it just. uh parts of that bullet just went all.

over me. I would just look like I'd been. peppered with with uh lead. And the gasoline was just pouring in. I. mean, just pouring in where they'd shot. the wing up above and the windshield's. gone. I did I mean, I I can't remember blah. blah blah it's just like like a hail. storm. So, I I was. Did the airplane stall or not? It I was. in a stall anyway and I didn't realize. it and I guess you wouldn't unless you. trained for it. But when you in a stall, the elevator is kind of flappy. And I didn't realize it at the time. I.

thought they had shot the elevator cable. in two. So, I thought oh god. So, I just reached. over and switched it all switched here. Pulled the mixture, pulled everything. and. in the river there was rocks about as. big as this table and they were like the. turtle back all the way up until there. was a waterfall. It was quite a pretty. place. And I crashed straight onto it. I. thought if if I get to those rocks and. when I did the first time I hit, the. wings came off and then it bounced and. the next time the nose came up and came. under the plane. And I'm sitting there I.

must have been knocked unconscious cuz. Pedro's shaking me. Come on, Roger. Come. on, Roger. So, I stepped out into the. water and here comes these four. federales still shooting at us. And a. bullet or two hit the airplane. And I kept a 9-mm Browning Hi-Power. taped to the top of the radio. Mhm. In case I ever needed it. So, cuz you didn't want to land it. didn't want it in the airplane. So, I. just it was just handy. Just cleanest. I. took and popped a few caps at them and. they ran into the rocks. So, uh.

we took off up off running and then I. looked and Pedro's foot nearly shot off. Had shot him on one side the ankle and. it just blown out the other side. And it. wasn't even hardly bleeding. It the. shock of it. So, I took my t-shirt off. and dripped it and tied it best I could. But you had still bullets in you. So, like you could still run. I shot the top top of my toenail off. I. shot a chop across my head and my. kneecap. Cuz I was just nicked. Okay, got you. It was very painful later on, but right. that time I didn't it wasn't it was just. hot. There's a bullet still in my foot.

from it, a piece of a bullet. Good size. slug. So, we went on up the mountain through. the cactus and just running. Just going. I want to go down. No, no, the federales. are going the. the easy way. Let's go. this young fellow to and we came to an. old donkey. She must have been 30 years. old, long and swayback, long hair on. her. Charlotte, Charlotte. And he patted. the donkey and we jumped on. And we rode for seven. Actual donkey? A donkey. They were. donkeys all over the place. Anyhow, he. knew that one from the village. And so, we rode 7 mi, two of us on a donkey with.

no bridle, no saddle, nothing. And uh. we came to a a little man plowing a. little horse and a little ox. They was. both of them spotted and there's the ox. was the yoke was across her back this. way and he's plowing with a little plow. amongst stumps. It was like one of these. people clearing a little piece of land. And he had a little little house there. And so, we went in his house and his. wife and his daughter, they put like uh. cloth over my wounds and on Pedro's it. was terrible was terrible. And they poured diesel oil on it to keep.

the flies off. So, I'm covered in diesel. So, the man. left and he was going all day. And then. about dark he showed up and about 15 or. 20 horses and mules showed up in the. yard walking fast. And a doctor got out. and said, I'm Dr. Benjamin so-so with. Red Cross. And he worked on my foot and he worked. on Pedro. He gave us a shot of morphine. and tetanus shots. And he said, you got to get to hospital. He said, Pedro will die if he don't get. to hospital. He said, they're looking. for a American pilot has been shot down.

They think he's dead. There was a lot of. blood in that airplane. And so, they rode I don't know how far we rode, but we rode miles and we'd come to a. road and there was a big truck. It was. loaded with corn in the ear. And they. dug holes in that corn put us in it. And covered us up. And the road was. rough and every time we'd hit a a dirt. road, that corn would cover me up and. they'd scratch my face out again. And when I came to the highway, uh we went into a house and they got me. some clothes and mine was messed up. And.

a white basin and they must have brought. 20 jugs of water different times. I kept. washing and washing my foot till all the. blood and the crud got off of me and put. on those clothes. And somebody went to uh they said, you. can't go north, the road's blocked. They're looking for the pilot. So, you. got to go south. So, they found a a taxi. in Mazatlán. And it was a rather new taxi and the. fellow would would take me to. Guadalajara, which was I don't know, 7-8. hours south. So, we got in that taxi and they propped. me up with sheets and blankets and.

pillows in the back seat. and give me these great big white pain. pills and I was quite content. Then I. was shot down in shot down in in. Colombia, also. What Can you tell that story? I sure can. All right, I was I went down for load of. load of marijuana. And we got to the. place and we got there too early. and the guerrillas. screamed, you got to get out of here. You got to get out of here. And so, we. went back to the place where we staged.

from. and refueled. I had a beautiful DC-3, carried three tons. And uh. so, while I was waiting, I uh. I I ate something for lunch and I went. around behind the house we refueled the. plane up. I had to wait till late. afternoon. They wanted me to come just. at dark so the military planes couldn't. see me on their strip. So, I'm laying in a hammock asleep and I. hear this terrible roar.

And I look right up through the trees. and I see end of two military jets going. straight up. And they do a dive over and they came. back down the strip in front of that. airplane and they just tear it up with. 50-calibre machine guns. They're just. showing out. Yeah. So, I run for the. airplane. I just gave that guy $80,000. and he ran for the truck and all the. rest of them ran for the truck. I should. have ran with my money. But I didn't. I ran for the airplane. And the co-pilot got in, the name was. Al. He got in with me and two fellows got in.

the back. We had drums of fuel in there. to refuel when we got down to the. guerrillas. So, we took off. And I couldn't get the gear up because. I'd taken off in such a hurry. There's. these pins in the struts of a DC-3 and. with big flags on them and you have to. take them up so that or the plane plane. won't come up. So, these jets swarmed on. me and they tried to get me to go. They. kept telling me which way to go. And the. pilot would be just as close as just. right over there. I could see him. I. just held up the old hippie peace sign. I didn't think they would shoot. I.

really didn't. And then nobody had shot. before. So, I kept flying out and I kept getting. slower and slower and they kept slowing. down, down, down and the black smoke. rolling. And then they they started. shooting up under me. Boom, boom, boom, boom with them 20-calibre machine guns. And then and the tracers just going up. They looked like they're curving up from. me. I wooed when I pushed the nose over. so they couldn't get under me. And later. on I heard they thought I tried to ram. them. So, one of them went for fuel and then I. kept on going and and the one just tore.

the left wing wing tip up with a. 50-calibre. And then he come back again. and shot tail up. He's warning me. And I tell the fellow in there says, you. know, if you bring me enough water, I. believe I can fly this thing. My mouth. got quite dry. So, I went on and uh. uh. I landed on a big pasture. And. it was huge pasture and it was rougher. than it looked and the wings just. flapped and I come to a stop and jumped.

out and pulled those tabs out and threw. them on the ground so I could get my. gear up. And I understand that in during the 1980. World Series baseball game that it was. says, American DC-3 has just been shot. down by American jets by Colombian jets. You know, it's the first plane shot down. on Reagan's new war on drugs. But he's. up. He's up and away, ladies and. gentlemen. We'll keep you posted. So, I. took off again and I went into a. thunderstorm and they came close to the. mountains. So, I spiraled up and every. time I'd come out that jet was there. Boom, boom, boom.

And. I dove back into that that storm and it. boom, boom, boom in there. At 20,000 ft. I started icing up. So, I went out one. last time and he was right there. waiting. He had me on the radar. So, I. went back in and I kicked it over and. put it into a spin and went straight. down to 2,000 ft and come out under it. and I was uh flying along the Guaviare. River. And it was a 20 ft above the water. It. was like a pasture. It was just grass. And I made several runs. to tear the grass down and it looked.

like and it felt hard. That old DC-3. weighs 30,000 lb and I put it down on. the fifth run. I said, all right, how we. going to land now? And as I So, you flew like close several. times. the wheels down. I put the wheels down. with half miles and just so, I'm making. so. So, you okay. So, you're you're you're. being tracked by a jet. He's just trying. to shut. Well, the before that. I'm just like. retelling the story how insane it is. Uh so he.

he's trying to shoot you down and then. there's a thunderstorm you're escaping. into and then you do a spin down to. what? 2,000 ft, whatever you said. Like somehow escaping all of this and. then you try to land on a. pasture with a giant heavy plane that. carries 3 tons. Uh by uh touching down five or six times. to make a to make a landing strip for. yourself. Yeah, the the grass was 3 or 4 ft high.

So I it was really good after about. after a few times. So then just before. it stopped I said, "I'll take your feet. off the brakes." He said, "I don't have. my feet on the brakes." Well, I knew I. had broken through the crushed. Nice. And I put full power on but it didn't. that old big plane just come on down and. it just did a head. as it came to stop it did a headstand. 90° to the ground. Oh wow. And the and the engine held held it up. and the nose and all just crushed in. right on it. We fell between the two. seats to keep from getting killed. Wow.

And when it come to a stop all that fuel. was pouring out on those hot engines and. there's a escape hatch at the top. I. just stepped out, took my suitcase with. me. Did it Was there fire? No fire. And the plane left the plane. there and the two guys that was in the. back one of them broke his thumb and. they it was with the barrels and they. had to put a hoses. tie gas hoses together to shimmy down to. get out. Yeah. So That's an incredible story. Well, let. me just tell you there was a little bit. more to it. I I learned to fly with the. idea of being a a missionary aviation.

fellowship pilot. Fly the missionaries. in and out of the jungle. Yes. Well, I. went 11 days through that jungle. The. rest of them went on down the road and. got went to prison. I said I I'll crawl. on my belly 6 months in here a year. eating snakes before I'm going down the. road. So I went in there and I was 11. days in the jungle and I finally came to. this place. and it had airplanes. I kept asking. Indian, "Donde está aviones?" I want to. steal an airplane and get out of there. And when I came to the place I asked, "What is this place? Lovely place." It.

looked like Honolulu at a. in World War II. With a runway there. She said, "You don't know? This is Loma Linda headquarters for. Missionary Aviation Fellowship for the. Amazon.". And they flew me out. Wow. You escaped from prison. five times. So what What stands out to. you as the most difficult or miraculous. escape in the bunch? The most like miraculous is was when I.

was in the courtroom in Spain. I think I. was I was on the third floor of real. high. and I ran across a courtroom handcuffed, kicked a window out and I looked down. and it was above the palm trees. I. thought there might be a power line or. something I could grab on as I went. down. There was nothing and there was a. car parked a station wagon on the uh So. you just jumped out? I jumped out from. 31 ft on top of that car and it exploded. in the street. The windshield went over. three or four cars. It looked like snow. going up and I looked like Donald Duck. with a thing coming out.

and handcuffs and I got out. And you. just kept running. Yeah, I kept running. They ran me down. to and hit me in the back. I still got a. dead spot in my back where the policeman. hit me with a shotgun. And they brought me back. Marie was. there. They was saying, "Your husband is crazy. That was. spectacular." But I escaped from Lübeck. maximum security prison and I cut out of. there and and got out of that was a. miraculous escape. In Lübeck, Germany. What was What was that escape like? I. was airing out They was going to. extradite me back to the United States.

where I still had all these charges and. 25 years special parole. And uh. I was cleaning the uh. lawyer's visiting room. and on it was uh. bars that looked like uh piano notes or. this way to make it pretty but there was. a little bit. So I got a rope from a guy that where. they made boats in there and I. I had 20 minutes. So I went in there and I wrapped it. around and I put a broom handle in it. that was cut off and wrapped it around.

until to pull the bars together on that. side and then I pulled them together on. the other side but that only put me in. inside the prison yard. where the. soccer equipment was kept but they were. um putting new windows on one side of. the prison and they had a scaffold up to. the fourth floor. So there was a little recess there and. there was guard towers every. 100 ft or so. I mean they would shoot. and kill you. So I got behind that. uh and climbed up holding to the bricks. on one hand and the scaffolding on the. other and went to the roof. I lost my.

shirt and most of my clothes going. through the window. I got all the skin. off of me. I thought I was going to die. and I was trying to go sideways like. this and finally I got a grip and the. bars let me through and took all the. skin off of me. So I got up on that roof and I have. asthma and I just lay there trying to. catch my breath. Didn't bring my. inhaler. With blood everywhere. Oh, I was bloody. yes. And so I got down to the end and on. the end the reason I did it they would. put it they was putting a new wall again. again around the prison to in make it.

larger. And they had taken all the. wire off above the sally port where they. could join the two walls together and I. saw that when I came up. And there was a guard a half of a. like a dome sticking out of that brick. building where there's a guard there. with a gun he'd kill you. I mean he was. made he was surely trained to kill you. And we had some bad people in that. place. So I lay up a one one floor above it and. I saw a guard and his wife come with a. double umbrella. It was just pouring. down rain. Here I am without a shirt on.

bloody and. he had a little boy She had a little boy. with him under that double umbrella and. I knew him and when he come and she. started back from the sally port I hit. the top of that guard tower bam with. both feet and I jumped I guess it's. three more floors. I jumped there was a. pile of sand like a cone where they were. digging it there and I hit that and my. feet buried up to the knees but I didn't. fall. and I ran straight towards her so he. couldn't shoot me and then I went around. some bushes and went downhill.

And then I heard blam blam blam blam. blam behind me and I looked and that. fool woman was in a big old car and she. was knocking down the parking meters. behind me. She was trying to run over me. and I ran behind a car. Oh wow. and she tore the fender off of. her car. trying and yelling yapping a terrible. evil looking face at me screaming at me. and the sirens going off in the prison. And there was a fence there. a wall and I jumped up on it to jump. over and it was had glass embedded. I.

cut my hands and my arms all up getting. over that and I hit the ground on the. other side and it was like. it was that muck muck where some farmer. had dug it. I dug in there and Marie had. slipped me $200 in the prison and I had. that in my shoe and I lost my shoes in. that muck. Anyway, I got out of there. and got to Holland. Really heck of a story how you did that. What was What was prison like whether. it's Germany or whether it's Australia? What what were the some of the darker. moments in prison? The United States. prisons are awful awful evil places now.

They're just really there's nothing nice. about them. There's the guards. In LA or what which one? In everyone everyone I went to. It. seemed like the further east I went to. Oklahoma and it was nicer but all of. them on the west coast. they was hatred there and they got. really stupid people hired. Just. incredibly A hatred by the guards. And. and the inmates. Like I speak Spanish. and I walked into the Spanish TV room. and it was saying you don't know, you.

can't come in here. And I walked across to the black, "Hey, get out of here. white boy." It was just like, "What? Man, I like all you people, you know?". Yeah. And so I walked down to the white. people and they said, "Show us your. paperwork.". "You can't come in here until you show. your paperwork. We don't let snitches and homosexuals. and all this sort of stuff in here.". So they have. So it's just like "Man, I don't want to. be in here." I mean it sounds absurd but. you're saying like the basic humanity is. gone. Completely. Completely and the.

guards it was just like "Come here, Reeves.". And I walked up to him, "Get the fuck. out of my face.". He sticks his chin out like for me to. break his jaw. Yeah. Like. "What in the world, man? I love people. and it's just. Yeah, you you got this joy to you. You. have a joyful nature. How. and it didn't seem like that broke you. Not a bit. How did you persevere? Did you know I. didn't even think I persevered but I I. tried enjoy my life wherever I am every.

day. I do. I I ran every day and like I told. you, "Hey, why do you run so, Roger?" I. said, "To help me suffer these fools.". And I played a game of chess every day. almost of my life in there and I read. two books a week. Mhm. And I talked with. people, storytellers. Guys would come in. and "Tell us another story, Roger. Give. us a poem. Tell us one you never told us. before." And so it was just nice. A lot. of them have original boys. They just. like they picked their country music and. it was all right. Red, Morgan Freeman's character in The.

Shawkshank Redemption. says the following. "These walls are funny. First you hate. them, then you get used to them. Enough. time passes you get so you depend on. them. That's institutionalized.". Is there truth to that? 100%. I couldn't. even see the walls except when I was. planning on escaping. In Shawkshank. Redemption he spent so many years in. prison. that he almost didn't know what to do. with themselves. with himself once he left. Once once he.

was a free man. That's the that you get so used to the. the system. the the rituals. having to follow orders. even being treated poorly, all those. kinds of things that you become. dependent on. Well, uh down in Australia, I spent the first. a little over a year in sh- in the shoe. It was like uh. Did you see the movie the uh. Silence of the Lambs. Thank you, buddy.

And he's there. I had five five or six. guards looking at me with one-way. mirror. Yeah. And that's whenever I. thought I might never get out. I got a. life sentence. I had all this time. waiting in here in Germany. And so, that's they had a. uh. They had a computer in there, but it. didn't have a program on it. And I wrote. So, I just started writing these little. stories of stuff I did in my life. And I. wrote one line and I wrote wrote over a. million words. With them looking at me. So, it was. after a year they let me out. It wasn't.

long before they put me in a place. called self-care. And uh particularly, I was in what they. call the lifers pod. There was 268 men. in self-care there. And uh. It was It was unbelievably good. That we were left alone. Basically, they. was there. Uh the guards was certainly. certainly there, but they had their. their shack, and we had apartments. Four. four apartments to the building. Mhm. And uh six men to the unit with your own. door and a key to it and a kitchen,

dining room, freezer, refrigerator, and. they gave you allowed you $360 a week to. buy groceries. And I cooked for about 16. years. And uh learned to cook good. Mhm. And the people and other people make. have their specialties. And uh. So, that was that was quite uh. it wasn't so like being in prison. It. was somewhat living with men. It was. difficult, man. I had some good good. fights and carry on. You don't get along with everybody. But.

uh. Then whenever I came back to the United. States, I was laughing and talking. And. when I got off the plane in uh L A., I. had three three marshals with me from. Australia. I was slammed up side the wall. I mean. hard. Put ankle. mic's on and and handcuffs so tight that. they cut my vein off. Face forward. Face. forward. Lands apart. Good gracious. And. and walked me up 50 steps and turned me. over to the marshals, and they took part. of that off. That was a border patrol.

that was there over my marijuana charge. from 1977. Yeah. For mar- for I did 11. years for parole violation. Now they. want me for more violation. And they put. me in down in Los Angeles, they put me. in the the marshals put me in in there, and they put me in isolation. I thought, what in the world they got me for. isolation for? I didn't do anything. How long did you spend in isolation? More than 6 months. So, I uh. After three or four days is the little.

Judas window slide open, and a man a. nice-looking man in a suit come there. Hello, Reeves. I want to just want to. see what you look like. I saw you in a. National Geographic documentary. And it. does me pleasure to keep you in. isolation. And he slammed the thing, and. I couldn't get out of there. And by law, the US Parole Commission is supposed to. give you a a hearing within 90 days. So, I already paid a lawyer $7,500, and he never picked up the phone. Somebody got to him. Who's that somebody you think?

his name, and I don't know who got to. him. But but some He didn't He didn't do. anything to get me out of there. Yeah. I got one 15-minute phone call a month. And I couldn't get out. So, then after 6 months, they. shipped me to uh. put me on Con Air. Double shackled and. black box on my hands. And I went to went to Oklahoma, and they. let me out on the. the uh. on the floor. I couldn't imagine that I could call.

after a couple of days. And they said. there was a man here from Washington. give you a parole hearing. You only got. here at 3:30. So, he left. He said he'd. be back next year. Mhm. What? I've been in there over 6 months. So, then there was a lovely little lady. She was the uh case manager or. something. She said, you can ask for a. parole on the record. And I said, please do. She said, I'll. send them a email. And the next day I. got my parole. 90 days later, they sent me to Terminal. Island put me in the place there with. the invalid, I guess, since I was old as.

I am, 78 years old. So, they put me in. the people in there dying and. wheelchairs and legs off and arms off. and cancers. So, I was in there, and I. pushed the fellows around. And uh. I I went come out the chow hall there, and I went to go to the right to get me. a haircut. And two Mexican guys there, lieutenant and another one, walked. between us. And he went like to boot. boot boot. And I said, I could outrun. you. And they slammed me, put me on the. ground, handcuffed me, and put me in the. shoe for a week. I got out, man. They put me in the back.

in the place. They treated me rough. Mhm. So, I got in a little more trouble, and they. put me back in the in the shoe. And I. wouldn't come out. They was had that uh. the the virus was out killing people. So, they killed eight people in that. unit I was in. Oh, wow. So, I mean I wouldn't even come out to. take a shower. I had a I had a little. straw that I put in the in the sink, and. I. I'd take a sock that I had and scrub. myself with it with some soap. And glass. water over my head and then clean the. floor up, put it in the toilet. So, that.

was your time during the coronavirus. pandemic. I got out last April right in the middle. of it, and and they were dying. bad in there. So, I was treated worse for that last. year in America than I was for the whole. 20 years in Australia. 18 years in. Australia. And then you were. a free man at the end of that year. They. put me out and sent me home and and the. parole officers couldn't even come. They. weren't working. They were just doing. everything by video. Said, better not have a drink. The only.

consti- thing was I couldn't even have a. drink of wine. So, uh. after year, they I had to I had to take. psychiatric treatment every week. I had. to go talk to the psychiatrist. psychologist. And me and her got along. great. She was a good Christian woman. We just chatted and talked. And I think. they said side to pee in the bottle. every week. Mhm. I said, I've been in 33. years. How many piss tests you think. I've had? Never been dirty. Only thing. if you want a clean one, you come get. me. Before I talk to you about love, let. me ask you a.

a difficult question. You write in your book, I don't consider. myself much of a criminal. I don't lie, cheat, or steal, and I always take up. for the underdog. Violence makes me sick. Yet, I know I'm an outlaw, and those. that break the law must be punished. I think many people listening to this or. some people listening to this. will see you as a criminal, as a bad man. who increased the amount of suffering in.

this world. What do you have to say to them? I would like to tell them that they have. been indoctrinated by the spin. of news and politicians, and they don't. know the truth of the situation. You lay the truth out there in an. envelope, let me open it. Beside. something else that is false, and it's. staggering. The truth is that I was a. tobacco farmer. And tobacco kills 500,000. people a year in America, and 6 million.

have a debilitating diseases because of. it. Drugs. All drugs combined kill between. 10 and 15,000 people a year by overdose. And 60% of those are pharmaceutical. Now then, when I was a tobacco farmer, come sit on the front pew, Mr. Reeves. Come on up here. You are a gentleman. You just joined the Masonic Lodge, and. you joined our church, and you just come. on and sit down with the good people. You grow two marijuana plants, get out.

of here, you scumbag. And the marijuana don't hurt anybody. It's just that's the truth of it. And so, in your career, you were you walked amidst violence, but you never participated in the. violence. I didn't even see it. Just didn't happen around me. In prison, it did. I sewed people up. They called. me Doc. I I dental floss and uh uh. one one time I had to get a blade and.

try to. help keep him from my patient. from getting again. But I don't. was just. uh like if I I shot at those people, I. shot at them to keep them from killing. me. I did I certainly didn't mean to. kill them. So, that's that's just Some people are. evil, and they will kill you and hurt. you and lie to you. I just don't do any. of that. It's just It's It's makes you. sick. I I've seen it I was when I was in. the shoe, three guys tried to kill the. guy. They stabbed him so many times that. their stab went black in it. The blood.

getting out the room. I said, you're. going to kill him. You're going to kill. him. And saved his life, drug him up. there where the guards could see him. And stuff like that. I'm just not of. that nature of those people. They're. just evil. There's people born evil, I. believe. Yeah. It It is heartbreaking to hear that the. basic humanity is gone in prison in the. United States. That's heartbreaking because that basic. humanity is actually the light at the. end of the tunnel. It's the thing that. saves us as opposed to uh when it's. absent, it's the thing that destroys us.

Uh the prisons are filled absolutely. filled with people that have some mental. problems. Now, you see tent city all the way up and. down here. I guarantee you every one of. those people have mental problems. Some. degree. How really it is, but they're a. little bit off. Now then, you get a DEA. agent that wants to make a name for. himself. He goes down there and gets two. of them one of them to sell a little 2 g. of methamphetamine to the other one. And. he gets a conviction. And a young prosecutor, he gets a.

conviction. He wants to make a judge. And we got the judge in Where was it? I'm going to give him a million What was. his name? Gilbert. I'm going to make I'm. going to give him a million years before. I get off the judge. You get fools like. that. in charge, you're going to fill prisons up with. pitiful humanity. And those are the ones and then the. other is people. over drugs. And drugs should be a. a health issue.

It's. you can't. you cannot. police it enough. It's just they know like the only thing. that overdoses is opioids, the heroin. And if they can give it to them it costs. about a dollar a day to give the worst. addict his his. his fix. But they'll give it methadone. which is from a pharmaceutical company. which is just as bad. Why in the world we tried it all over. the world in in. Portugal and England and when they give. the the the girls clean up.

no more stolen cars. Why? Who who wants to keep this. farce going? They're just perpetuating. it like oh every little. police place is getting all these. suits and armor and machine guns. It's. just like oh it's it's such a spin. It's. it's sad. Do you think all drugs should be. legalized? I don't know about that but they. certainly should be. controlled. If a person is an addict. he should be able to go down and get his.

fix. with somebody there to help him with a. clean needle and a glass of orange. juice. It's so much cheaper than prison, so much cheaper than him stealing cars. or prostitute having to go to work. That's sad. You've lived one heck of a life. Looking back there's a. there's a lot of young people that. listen to this. High school, college students. What. advice would you give them? How to live. um. how to have a successful career,

how to have a good life, how to be a good man or woman. To be a good man or woman? If I had it to do over with I'll just. tell you what I'd have done. I would. have paid attention and studied my. lesson. and did the best I could. Um In school? In school. Yes. And went. as far as I could have. I would have. liked to have been a doctor. I just. didn't have the stickability or anybody. to tell me, "Hey, go over here and do that.". And if you can do that at a very young.

age, start in a trade. Learn to do something. Doesn't matter. what it is. It's if you learn to do. something good, there is a great demand. for you. And I would say that in prison. that the prison system should come in. and you get a thief, young fans of thief. or. robber. And you say, "All right. Uh we need um we need carpenters. We. need plumbers. We need electricians. We. need sheep. Send them send them send them to that.

trade and when you get an A+ in that. where you can go out and make you $30 or. $50 an hour, you go home.". Now you can you can mess around 10 years. if you want to or you can do this in. two. I think that would uh that's just. for the prison. But anyway, I would say. that they find somebody and be true to. them. That we have um. just be honest and and true in your. life. You mean like relationships, friendships? I mean so many so many people.

particularly our children are are. from relationships where. they're not wanted. They're divorced. Their father's left. They don't know who. their daddy is. They're dis in the. foster homes. 500,000 children in foster. homes in America today. And and we have and our government in. inadvertently has been encouraging those. people. My daughter is is a doctor and. she delivered a couple years ago a baby. from a 10-year-old child. That child and she said in the in the. visitor's room was four generations. All.

of them on welfare. Now we got one more and it reminds me of. Elvis Presley's song In the Ghetto. So for an individual. learn a trade, become a craftsman of. sorts. Yes. And uh find somebody to love and. who loves you. That's right. Have have a. family and and. and and stick with it. There's be surely. you're going to get angry, you're going. to get disappointed, you're going to get. all kinds of stuff but but come back and.

make up before before you go to sleep. Well, I. I did half of those things. I got the. first one and working on the second one. So I appreciate the advice. Well, Mary, thank you so much for. joining us. Can you tell me the story of how you two. met? Well, um my parents every summer would. uh go to the lake in in Canada and the. place was called Turkey Point which is. on Lake Erie and just have a nice summer. holiday there, water skiing, swimming,

you know, sunbathing. This was back in. the '60s. And I was sitting on the pier. with a few girlfriends and telling them. my story, you know, and then all of a. sudden I looked up. and I saw this figure in the distance. coming onto the pier. Now we're all. dressed in bathing suits and swimwear. and we're swimming and this that and the. other and here he comes, dark trousers. In fact, they were black. White shirt and a tie.

and a straw kind of a Panama hat. And you know, so he was very he stood. out. And so I invited him to come and. sit down and so he continued to talk and. we just talked and talked and talked and. then later moved to the beach and. I think the next time I saw him he was. talking to another girl and I thought, "Yeah." You know, yeah. Man. I know. I. was okay. Okay, next. Well, about 6. months later I received a letter.

and it's a letter from Roger. And then we start this lovely. correspondence and we just start. writing, you know, in those days you. just wrote everything. And. and then the next summer he was coming. up again. He was on his way to Alaska. and um. he says, "I would like to come by and. see you." And I said, "Well, I'll be in. the same place that I met you last. year.". And so when we when he came up this time. for some reason Roger reached for my.

hand and I reached for his and man, that. was it. It was like love at for first touch. That was love. It was just a like a. silence, you know, and a. oh my gosh and. we didn't even look at each other. It. was just oh my goodness, what happened. here? And I was the type of person I. never wanted to get married, not to way. way way down the road, never have any. children and I wanted to see the world. first and then do all that, you know.

And um But that was it. That was love. and you've been together ever since. Yeah. Well, the thing is about. the love that the the two of you have. for each other is it had to persevere. through quite a heck of a journey. So. how did Roger's. drug smuggling. change the nature of your love and your. relationship? Well, Lex, that remained steadfast.

It it endured. And since Roger's been home I think. we've rekindled the love that we had. when we first met. Yeah, what But but I. think my faith. um. you know, my faith, my steadfast faith. and also the fact that Roger and I. communicated. We wrote letters, you. know, he he never complained. I know. there were the children there. He never. had mistreated me. I love this guy. And.

we had a lot of experiences. It was just. even though. He's a good-looking, charismatic. He's. pretty, you know. Yeah, and he's adventu- he was. adventurous, you know, and and. Would you say that again? But um. yes, it was just I know I you know, I. missed him physically but he was just we. were just so strong in spirit. You know, and um. we could talk to one another. Yep. What what was it like.

uh Roger when you're a free man. seeing Mary for the first time. in person again? I I cried for 3 days. Everything I'd. look at a picture of her. I came home. and uh. there she prepared a meal for me. And. it was the old oak table that I'd. redone and the chairs the same one and. the green placemats and the same china. that we had and the same silverware.

And it just just all of it just brought. back the same paintings on the wall. It. was just like unbelievable after 35. years. She had all my clothes cleaned, and my. shoes shined and I put the shoes on and. I walked out and the strings on the and. the soles came off. But the shirts and all fit perfect and. everything. So it was just wonderful. And just to just to see her and then to. just to think about see her picture of. her 50th birthday, of her 60th birthday, of her 70th birthday. I wasn't there. And the picture of her and with the.

children it just it was heartbreaking. And about the third day I thought, "Man, I felt I mean. you you got to." So uh. I got over it quick quit with the. quit the tears. It It was It was It was. everything was just pulsating with life. It was just unbelievable to get out of. that place. It really was. Is there uh. Do you regret. the the the drug smuggling that took you. away from the woman you love? Oh, yes.

100%. Just. no. I I wouldn't have done it again if if. you don't think you're going to get. caught. And uh it's just No, it's just I did it. for money and I had everything in the. world I wanted before I did that. Mhm. So, the adventure. I mean, it was one heck of an adventure. for the two of you for the both of you. Yes. Were you able to enjoy or was it. always danger? Was What is Was it always.

something that threatened your. relationship, your love, your family? Were you able to enjoy the. adventure of it? You know, we're all. die. Life is short. And to live that. kind of adventure Well, whenever I did. the first load, I got $10,000. And that was just about That was just. about 2 years pay on the fire department. take home. And I drove that home and. I put my hand over my mouth. I said, "No." She took it home to Mary. She. probably had $20 of money. Mary like, "Oh my. What in the world?" And then.

Roger said, "Let's go have dinner.". Yeah. And so, we went to the little. restaurant that we would nor we would go. to, you know. And he said, "And don't. you dare look on the right hand side of. the of the menu." He said, "Just order. anything you want.". And it was just as we were in the. restaurant, you know, it was just we. were giddy about it. Yet, we were I was giddy about it and um. Were you afraid that. I mean, did you think about the fact. that it's illegal and Roger going to end.

up in in prison? Oh, yes. Did you guys. talk about it? Well, I just I kind of thought I was. bulletproof. I mean, they didn't catch. you. I thought if they didn't catch you, you was all right. It was hard to catch. you. It hard to catch you in in the air. Yeah. So, you never thought hard to. catch you in the air. I didn't know that if your friend told. on you 5 years later, you'd still go to. prison. That was the problem. I didn't. know that. Did you Did you guys ever talk about. walking away?

I asked Roger to walk to to walk away. He said, "I can't Mary just now, you know." And. then of course, the the amount of people. that he began to support, the family and. the gifts and The deals. The deals. Yes, the deals. Big ones. Yes. And then you always wanted to do. What do you do with the money? You know, so you want to. I guess you. clean it up or you want to invest in a. in an enterprise or in a business. Well,

it just doesn't work. They know the. source of it and they take it and run. Every one of them. Yep. Yeah. But, he's very generous, extremely. generous and benevolent and And when I. started, I I I would ask about I went to. a lawyer and I. a good good people a number of people in. in California at that time wanted to. legalize marijuana. back in 1973. And I went to a lawyer and I says, "Mr. Lawyer, I put $100 on the table. What.

What would they do if I caught me. bringing marijuana across the border?". He said, "Uh if you have a criminal record?" I. said, "No. I've never had a speeding ticket. Not. nothing not. not even a traffic ticket.". I said He said, "You work for the fire department?" I. said, "No." He said, "I said yes, sir.". He said, "You'll get probation. The. worst you'll do is you'll get. 1 year and you'll spend four four months. raking leaves on a military base.". So, my mother my father died some years. before and my brother mother and baby. sister came out and I took them down to.

Disneyland and she said, "What you. doing, boy?". I said, "I'm hauling pot, Mom.". She said, "How much you making?" I said, "Making $40,000 any day I want to go.". And she said, "What do they do if they. catch you?" And I told her what the. lawyer said. "Four months at the most. for raking leaves. That's what do you. think?" She said, "Do you need a. co-pilot, son?" Yeah. Money is money. Yeah. Is the. So, your relationship. persevered through some. some big challenges. Is there advice you.

can give about what. makes for successful relationship? Oh, well, you know, I think. the initial igniting. meeting someone, you know, that that's. the love. That's it. And that that that little. fire just that fire just keeps burning. and burning and burning. You can't put. it out no matter what. It's the. the love fire. But, it gets difficult.

It does. It's funny the love fire. So, you're saying the love fire is all it. takes to to persevere through the. difficulty. Well, no. Well, that's a huge part of. it. And also, I contribute my my. individual situation to. in order to endure what we the prison. years is my faith. Faith in God? Yes. And friends who were unconditionally. still loved me no matter what.

Yes. So, she had love. around you. I did. And my children. They, you know, and that was a real. purpose to guide them and to love them. and. to help them become. citizens. All right. What about you, Roger? What. What advice would you give? I just don't know how to do it, but I I. do know that you have to work on a. relationship. Mary and I have had. problems. I mean, we get really You guys. get in fights? Oh, yeah.

Oh, yes. But, not They don't let them laugh home. Yeah. But, certainly we are so. different. the same and yet we're so different. Yeah. Like little stuff? Little stuff, yes. And uh it might be big, but I usually. win her over, you know. But, it's But, anyhow, I just feel like. Mary was always there. It was like she. was my anchor. Yeah. I was coming home. I was always coming home to her and the. children. And you can see throughout my.

life, I'm working on getting there. Were you afraid for his life, by the. way? Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. There were. times. Yep. But, you know, I had some I had faith in him. He was an. excellent pilot. For example, I always. said, "Roger, if the ship's going down, I'm jumping in the lifeboat with you. because I know we're going to get to. shore. You will save us." And so, I had. that I have that faith in him, you know. I mean, he's he's a man, but yet he's. the one you want to get into the. lifeboat with. Definitely.

But, then there is uh. you know, Pablo Escobar, one of the most. dangerous humans in history, plus the US government. Yep. Worst I thought. Uh very difficult. very difficult to get away. In terms of your faith, um. how has your faith helped you. to be the woman you are in this. relationship in in. in seeing love the way you see it? Well, I think my faith gives me hope. I.

have lots of hope. It helps me to um. dwell on the good side, you know, when I. ever I meet someone and they're some. negative, I try to see why they are like that or. what's the source of all that and I try. to pull out the good. I really do. Not. that I'm a goody-goody, but that's what. your faith does, you know, you see them. as God sees us, you know.

How has he changed over the years? Roger? Yeah. He's still the same. Actually, I like him better now. He's a little calmer, you know. Oh, yes. And and happy to be, you know, at home or he'll say, "Mary, I am just. so happy to be with you here in this. condominium. I'm content." Cuz I used to. call him. my homing pigeon. You know, I just have. to let him fly. I couldn't you know, he. has to fly, but he always came home.

Do you think about. the end of this ride, our mortality? Do. you think about your death? I do. I'll. I'll particularly I'm going to have um. a heart valve replacement in about 7. days where. I could could not make it. You know, it's a very serious operation and I. think about that very much. And um. I ask for peace. I just lost my brother. about 10 days ago so unexpectedly.

And that really put you know, makes you. think of your mortality. Are you afraid? Um somewhat and some and and and yet. not. Yeah. I want to live, Lex. I want to. live. You know. This life is fun. Yes. Do you think about your death, Roger? I have visions. I have visions and they often happen. very very clear like what I have seen in. the future. So, I just might call it.

wormholes or in. the Old Testament, they called it. prophets, but I I see sometimes into the. future around the corner. It's clear as. we're sitting right here. What's that. look like? I was on a porch and I. believe I was in like Central America. place. I was an old man with khaki pants. and a white shirt. And there's it was a a chair with a wide. arms and it was straight and there's. like the the beams coming out above my. head and I'm on a porch. Bougainvillea. And uh. and I uh. I come I I have out-of-body experiences.

also. And I came out of my body. Just I. just floated out of my body and went. into a veil. And like into a mist. And I believe that's probably why it. happened. You talk about You talk about like it's. in your past. This is your future. in my future. But. This is something he has seen, you know, in the past. Yeah, in the vision. No, I know, but. it's funny just the tense you use. It happened and yet it's something that. will happen too. Both are true. It's.

just unbelievable that and I I I don't. know how many people have it, but I have. it. I I went out of my body just like. just where I could come up to you and. look and sit up on the radio. I used to. be at work on the railroad and I I had. one there. How do you explain that? What. do you What do you think What the heck. is going on in this universe that's. that's possible? Oh, I don't know, but. certainly certainly a phenomenon which. it happened and. there's a guy Bill Monroe that wrote the. book on it out of the body. He tells.

about it and who was the guy that writes. uh. the Alchemist? Paulo Coelho? He has them. also just like that and and he tells. about how it happens on him. Mine. happened differently. And. but you certainly can come out of your. body. What do you think the meaning of uh this. life is? Maybe from from. from your faith. but also from just. the amazing adventure that you lived. through.

How do you make sense of why the heck. we're here? I don't know. It just it's just kind of like who you. are. Even when I was a child I was like. I'm different from other people. You know, and I just as a boy I was like. I uh. I don't Could you put into words how you. were different or was it just a feeling? Yeah, like my brother I mean he kept his. hands clean and his shoes shined. Here I. was barefooted catching a wild hog or or. wrestling a a a horse trying to get it.

down, you know. pictures of you climbing a tree. Recently. When I first got out of. prison, always something like that. Yeah. It's just. So, I don't know. It's just that. and I noticed that. something about me is sometimes in. prison there'd be a knife fight. And people just you see them rough guys. that uh. turn white from it. It. I just kind of almost like smile. I. mean, unless unless they come at me I. you know, I'd turn white and get away. But it.

doesn't bother Those things doesn't. bother me. I just prison didn't bother. me. So, you don't know what the heck the. meaning is. You just know you're a bit. different than the others. Yeah, might. be a little bit coopy. Well, uh. maybe the the whole point is you want to. realize you want to let that. madness flourish, that uniqueness. flourish. That's the whole point of. life. We're all different in our in like. very interesting little ways. And the. more different you are you want to let. that.

you want to let that become. You want to. let it be as full It's like a garden, you know, all the different flowers. Yeah, like a garden. you did mention um you weren't sure if. there's a free will or not. Um do you think it's all predetermined. or do you think we make our own choices? our decisions. I just said if it is I. hope that. but I know that we make our decisions. Yes. I agree. And I I know that we are. spirits Mhm. that are living in this in. this flesh. That's beyond a shadow of a. doubt with me. If you walk out of your.

body and have out of body experiences. you will know it. So, the body is just a. temporary container for something much. bigger. eternally with no beginning and. no end. It just and that's hard to. fathom. Yeah, this is just a little shit This is. a shell to contain that spirit, you. know, this is the way we work on Earth, you know. But yeah, I know it. I'm an. eternal being. So are you. Do you think there's a why to it? You. know, do you think there's a meaning to. this life? Well, I think the why is.

beyond my capability of understanding. It's someone greater than me. I don't. understand it. But it's awesome. I just know that it's. awesome. And one day we will know the. answers once we get to that. cross over the other to the other side. I think we will understand clearly. It. says, you know, now we see through a. glass darkly. But then when we are face to face with. God we will understand. And un- until we know.

let's just enjoy this beautiful life. while we got it. And we're fellow men. That was my gift. I love everybody and everything. Mhm. I I do and it just and I'm sorry if I. put a stumbling block in anybody's way. I wouldn't want to. But uh. these are these things that I just think. about oh, what a. hypocritical world we live in though. Like uh. almost anybody out there listening okay, he's a drug dealer. And I would say most. of them committed adultery.

That's a cardinal sin. And yet they move. through through rocks at me for moving a. uh marijuana or cocaine across the road. Yeah. It's just it's just if you saw the. two different things you'd say, what a. terrible difference it is. But we we've. become conditioned with this mad society. that we have. You mentioned that your daughter. Miriam wrote you a poem. You mind. reading it? I'll be glad to. I was uh. doing 11 years up in Lompoc.

Penitentiary, maximum security prison. for a parole violation. for possession of marijuana in 1977. They should have given me 6 months, but. they gave me 11 years because they. wanted me for what they call silent. beef. Anyhow, while I was in that dungeon I. received a letter. from my daughter Miriam. It's called Daddy's Poem. A year ago I became a poet when I wrote. your birthday prose. And here I am today ready to give it. another go.

First, I would like to wish you a very happy. birthday to be. and to thank you so very much for. without you I would not be me. Secondly, I want to say that your. support has been immense. It has been true, honest, loving, and. free of all pretense. Thirdly, it goes without saying. your love has surpassed all my wrongs. and you always made me smile with one of. your old country songs. I can remember on Creole Daddy with you.

holding me in your arms as you sang Jim. Reeves songs and talked about the farm. I can see you walking through the door. from one of your travels far and wide. and the thought of you coming home, Daddy, kept a twinkle in our eyes. I can smell you as I did when I used to. climb into your bed. and you would talk to me again about one. of the adventures that you led. I can see me and Mario sleep in one of. your airplanes extraordinaire. and remembering wondering to myself why. there wasn't an available chair.

I remember having to meet you and. worrying that you wouldn't be there but. you would pop from behind some counter. and give us all a happy scare. You gave us presents in Key Biscayne and. hotels pleasure galore. and three dozen roses that we came. through the airport door. I can see your face in Amsterdam at the. luggage carousel and you looked like a. boy with a secret that you were just. dying to tell. You taught me mathematics in the sands. of faraway places.

and taught me to sail and we left. without any traces. We climbed glaciers in Argentina and saw. the blue of the beautiful caves and. witnessed the majestic beauty. of such a jagging maze. I learned how to change gears on the. dirt roads of Brazil. We ate hot dogs in Paraguay, a memory we. smile over still. We talked about lions, elephants, and. bears on a hacienda in Uruguay but. decided it was better if to Europe we. did fly. With the old world and all its luxury,

what a good time it was. From South America to the Cosmopolski I. think we fell in love. The European jaunt, well, it is considered a book in itself. But it's a story about beauty and. knowledge, suspense, and worldly wealth. We went from Holland to Sweden and we. went from France to Spain and I promise. you I have no regrets. I would. definitely do it all again. I would see the world with you anytime, sir. There's no doubt in my mind because.

being by your side, Daddy, always. ensures a wild good time. So, our paths took a turn and we're back. in the USA, but life here isn't so bad and I'm plumb. content to you although I'm not as close. as I was before. but because of your love and. encouragement I've been able to open new. doors. I'm grateful to be in school and I'm. generally happy where I am. and I even like when you call and tell. me to study for the next exam.

What a life you've given me, Daddy. It's. a tremendous and a magical gift. We already have so many stories to tell. They're far too many to list. But I want to thank you again this day. with a very big happy birthday to you. and to tell you just a few more things. that I know in my heart to be true. That I love you, Daddy, with all of your. wrongs and your rights. That you're ahead of our family and. you've kept us all bound tight. That you have a honest love in your.

heart for God and all mankind and you. truly do believe in yourself when you. say it will all be fine. I know you will be there to catch me if. ever I waver or slip and I know I'd want. you as captain on any sinking ship. I also know a new chapter is written. It's almost time to move on. It's time to sail another sea and to. witness a brand new dawn. It'd be good to see you at the helm. again as you point out our destination. and we'll laugh and dance on the upper.

deck as while the boat glides through. It'd be good to see you on the go as I. know you like to be. and to know you can open any door. without any key. But while we revel in our days together. we will know better than to hurry. because as you told me many times. life is an incredible journey. Mhm. Wow, that's beautiful. Mhm. Yeah. Roger.

I'm really honored that you would take. the time to visit me in Texas and to. sit down and talk with me. Thank you so. much, Roger. Thank you too. Thank you. It was a pleasure. It's been a real. pleasure. Yes. Beautiful. Thanks for listening to this. conversation with Roger Reeves and thank. you to Noom, Allform, ExpressVPN, Four Sigmatic and. Eight Sleep. Check them out in the description to. support this podcast. And now, let me leave you with some. words from Pablo Escobar.

All empires are created of blood and. fire. Thank you for listening. I hope to see. you next time.