Ray Kurzweil: Singularity, Superintelligence, and Immortality | Lex Fridman Podcast #321

by the time we get to 2045. we'll be able to multiply our. intelligence many millions fold. and it's just very hard to imagine what. that would be like. the following is a conversation with ray. kurzweil author inventor and futurist. who has an optimistic view of our future. as a human civilization. predicting that exponentially improving. technologies will take us to a point of. a singularity beyond which.

super-intelligent artificial. intelligence will transform our world in. nearly unimaginable ways. eighteen years ago in the book. singularity is near he predicted that. the onset of the singularity will happen. in the year. 2045. he still holds to this prediction and. estimate. in fact he's working on a new book on. this topic that will hopefully be out. next year. this is the lex friedman podcast to. support it please check out our sponsors.

in the description and now dear friends. here's ray. kurzweil. in your 2005 book titled the. singularities near you predicted that. the singularity will happen in 2045. so now 18 years later. do you still estimate that the. singularity will happen. on 2045 and maybe first what is the. singularity the technological. singularity and when will it happen. singularity is where computers really.

change our view of what's important. and change who we are. but we're getting. close to some. salient things that will change. who we are. a key thing is 2029. when. computers will pass the turing test. and there's also some controversy. whether the turing test is valid i. believe it is. most people do believe that but there's. some controversy about that but.

stanford. got very alarmed at my. prediction about 2029 i made this in. 1999. and my book. the age of spiritual machines right and. then you repeated the prediction in 2005. 2005. yeah. so they held international conference. you might have been aware of it. of ai experts in 1999 to assess. this view. so people gave different predictions. and they took a poll it was really the.

first time that ai experts worldwide. were polled on this prediction. and the average poll was a hundred years. uh 20 percent believed it would never. happen. and that was the view in 1999. 80 believed it would happen. but not within their lifetimes. there's been so many advances in a.i. uh that the poll of ai experts has come. down over the years so a year ago.

something called meticulous which may be. aware of assesses different types of. experts on the future. they again assessed. what ai experts then felt and they were. saying 2042. for the drawing test. for the turning test. so it's coming down and i was still. saying 2029 yeah a few weeks ago. they again did another poll.

and it was 2030. so. a experts now basically agree with me. i haven't changed at all i've stayed. with 2029. and they experts now agree with me but. they didn't agree at first. so. alan touring formulated the touring test. and. right now. what he said was very little about it i. mean the 1950 paper where he had. articulated the during test. he there's like a few lines.

that. uh. talk about the turing test. um. and it really wasn't. uh very clear how to administer it. and. he said if if they did it in like 15. minutes. that would be sufficient which i don't. really think is the case. these large language models now. some people are convinced by it already. i mean you can talk to it and have a. conversation with you you can actually. talk to it for hours.

so. it requires a little more depth. there's some problems with large. language models which we can talk about. um. but. some people are convinced. by the turing test now. if somebody passes the turing test. what what are the implications of that. does that mean that they're sentient. that they're conscious. or not it's not necessarily clear. what the implications are.

anyway i i believe. 2029 that six seven years from now. uh. we'll have something to pass this turing. test and a valid turing test. meaning it goes for hours not just a few. minutes can you speak to that a little. bit what is. your. formulation of the touring test you. you've proposed a very difficult version. of the drawing test so what does that. look like basically it's just to assess. it over several hours.

and also have a human judge that's. fairly sophisticated on what computers. can do and can't do. if you take somebody who's not that. sophisticated. or even a average engineer. they may not really assess. various aspects of it so you really want. the human to challenge the system. exactly exactly on its ability to do. things like common sense reasoning. perhaps.

that's actually a key. problem with large language models they. don't do. these kinds of. tests that would involve. assessing uh chains of reasoning. but you can lose track of that you if. you talk to them they actually can talk. to you pretty well. and you can be convinced by it. but it's somebody that would really. convince you that it's a human. uh.

whatever that takes. maybe it would take days or weeks. but it would really convince you that. it's human. large language models. can appear that way you can read. conversations and that they appear. pretty good. there are some problems with it. it doesn't do math very well. you can ask how many. legs did 10 elephants have and they'll. tell you well okay. each elephant has four legs and 10.

elephants so it's 40 legs and you go. okay that's pretty good. how many legs do 11 elephants have and. they don't seem to understand the. question. do all humans understand that question. no. that's the key thing i mean how advanced. the human do you want it to be. but we do we do expect a human to be. able to do multi-chain reasoning. to be able to take a few facts and put. them together. not perfectly and we we see that you.

know in a lot of polls that people don't. do that. perfectly at all but. um. so it's not it's not very well defined. but it's something where it really would. convince you that it's a human. is your intuition that large language. models. will not be. solely the kind of system that passes. the turing test in 2029. do we need something else no i think it. will be a large language one but they. have to go beyond what they're doing now.

uh i think we're getting there. and another key issue. is if. somebody actually passes the turing test. validly i would believe they're. conscious and not everybody would say. that say okay we can pass. a turing test but we don't really. believe that it's conscious that's a. whole other issue. but if it really passes the turning test. i would believe that it's conscious. but i don't believe that of uh.

large language models today. if it appears to be conscious. that's as good as being conscious at. least for you in some. in some sense. i mean consciousness is not something. that's scientific. uh i mean i believe you're conscious. but it's really just a belief and we. believe that about other humans that. at least appear to be conscious. um. when you go outside of shared human. assumption.

like our animal's conscious. some people believe they're not. conscious some people believe they are. conscious. and would. a machine that acts just like a human. be conscious i mean i believe it would. be. but but that's really a philosophical. belief it's not. you can't prove it i can't take an. entity and prove that it's conscious. there's nothing that you can do that. would be. that would indicate that.

it's like saying a piece of art is. beautiful. you can say it. multiple people can experience a piece. of art is beautiful. uh but you can't prove it. but it's also an extremely important. issue yes i mean imagine if you had. something where. nobody's conscious. the the world may as well not exist. um. and. so some people like say marvin minsky.

[Music]. said well consciousness is not. logical it's not scientific and. therefore we should dismiss it and. any answer any talk about consciousness. is. just. not to be believed. but when he actually. engaged with somebody who was conscious. he actually acted as if they were. conscious. he didn't ignore that. he acted as if consciousness does matter. exactly. whereas he said it didn't matter.

well that's myron raminsky yeah he's. full of contradictions but that's true. of of a lot of people as well um but to. you consciousness matters but to me it's. very important. but but i would say it's not a. scientific issue. it's a philosophical issue and people. have different views and some people. believe that. anything that makes a decision is. conscious so your light switch is. conscious. it's level of consciousness that's low. it's not very interesting.

but but that's a consciousness. uh and anything so a computer that makes. a more interesting decision. still not at human levels but it's also. conscious and at a higher level than. your light switch. so that's one view. there's many different views of what. consciousness is so if a system passes. the turing test. it's not scientific. but uh. in issues of philosophy things like.

ethics start to enter the picture. do you think. there would be. we would start contending as a human. species. about the ethics of turning off such a. machine. yeah i mean that's definitely come up. hasn't come up in reality yet but yet. but i'm talking about 2029 it's not that. many years from now. um and so what are our obligations to it. uh it has a different.

i mean a computer that's conscious has a. little bit different. uh. connotations than. a human. we have a continuous consciousness. we're in an entity that. does not last forever. now actually a significant portion of. humans still exist. and are therefore still conscious. um.

but anybody who is over a certain age. doesn't exist anymore. that wouldn't be true of a computer. program. you could completely turn it off. and a copy of it could be stored and you. could recreate it. and so it has a different type of uh. validity. you could actually take it back in time. you could eliminate its memory and have. it go over again i mean it has a. different. kind of. connotation than.

humans do well perhaps you can do the. same thing with humans. it's just that we don't know how to do. that yet yeah it's possible that we. figure out all of these things on the. machine first. but that doesn't mean the machine isn't. conscious. i mean if you look at the way people. react say three cpo or other. machines that are conscious in movies. uh they don't actually present how it's. conscious but. we see that they are a machine. and people will believe that they are.

conscious. and they'll actually worry about it if. they get into trouble and so on. so 2029 is going to be the first year. when a a major thing happens right and. that that will shake our civilization to. start to consider. the role of ai. yes or no i mean. this one guy. at google claimed that. the machine was conscious. but that's just one person.

right so it starts to happen at scale. well that's exactly right because most. people have not taken that position i. don't take that position i mean i've. used. uh. different things. um uh like this and they don't appear to. to me to be conscious. as we eliminate various problems of of. these. large language models. uh more and more people will accept that. they're conscious so when we get to 2029.

more. i think a large. fraction of people will believe that. they're conscious. so it's not going to happen all at once. i believe that what actually happen. gradually and it's already started to. happen. and so that uh takes us one step closer. to the singularity another step then is. in the 2030s. when we can. actually connect our neocortex which is. where we do our thinking.

to. computers. and i mean just as this actually gains a. lot to being connected to. computers that will amplify its. abilities. i mean if this did not have any. connection it would be pretty stupid it. could not answer any of your questions. if you're just listening to this by the. way. where is holding up. the uh the all-powerful. uh smartphone so we're gonna do that.

directly from our brains. i mean these are pretty good these. already have amplified our intelligence. i'm already much smarter than i would. otherwise be if i didn't have this. because i remember my first book the age. of intelligent machines. there was no way to get information from. computers i actually would go to a. library find a book. find the page that had an information i. wanted. and i'd go to the copier and my most.

significant. uh. information tool was a roll of quarters. where i could feed the. copier. so. we're already. greatly advanced that we have these. things. there's a few problems with it. first of all i constantly put it down. and i don't remember where i put it. i've actually never lost it but. you have to find it. then you have to turn it on so there's a. certain amount of steps it would. actually be quite useful. if someone would just listen to your.

conversation. and say. uh oh that's. you know so-and-so actress um and tell. you what you're talking about so going. from active to passive where just. permeates. your whole life yeah exactly the way. your brain does when you're awake. your brain is always there. right now that's something that could. actually just just about be done today. where would listen to your conversation. understand what you're saying understand. what you're.

not missing and give you that. information. but another step is to actually go. inside your brain yeah. and there are some. prototypes where you can connect your. brain. they actually don't have the amount of. bandwidth that we need. they can work but they work fairly. slowly. so if if it actually would connect to. your neocortex. and the neocortex which i. described in how to create a mind.

the neocortex is actually. it has different levels and as you go up. the levels. it's kind of like a pyramid the top. level is fairly small. and that's the level where you want to. connect. uh. these. brain extenders. um. so i believe that will happen in the. 2030s we will actually. so just the way this is greatly.

amplified by being connected to the. cloud. we can connect our own brain to the. cloud. and. just do what we can do by using this. machine do you think it would look like. uh the brain computer interface of like. neuralink so would it be well never. length it's an attempt to do that. it doesn't have the bandwidth that we. need. um yet right right but i think.

i mean they're going to get permission. for this because there are a lot of. people who absolutely need it because. they can't communicate and i know a. couple of people like that who. have ideas and they cannot. they don't. they cannot move their muscles and so on. they can't communicate. so for them this would be very valuable. but we could all use it. basically. be. uh. turn us into something that would be.

like we have a phone but. it would be in our minds it would be. kind of instantaneous and maybe. communication between two people would. not require. this low bandwidth mechanism of language. yes spoken word exactly we don't know. what that would be although we do know. that. computers can share information. like language instantly. they can share. many many books in a second. so we could do that as well.

if you look at what our brain does. it actually. can manipulate different parameters. so we we talk about these large language. models. um. i mean i had written that. it requires a certain. amount of information in order to. uh be effective. and that we would not see.

ai really being effective until it got. to that level. and we had large language models there. were like 10 billion bytes didn't work. very well they finally got to 100. billion bytes and now they work fairly. well and and now we're going to a. trillion bytes. if you say uh. lambda has a hundred a billion bytes. what does that mean well what. what if you had something that had one. byte one one parameter. maybe you want to tell whether or not.

something's uh. an elephant or not and so you put in. something that would detect its trunk. if it has a trunk it's an elephant if it. doesn't have a trunk it's not an. elephant. that will work. fairly well there's a few problems with. and it. really wouldn't be able to tell what the. trunk is but anyway and maybe other. things other than elephants have trunks. you might get really confused yeah. exactly uh i'm not sure which animals. have trunks but you know.

that's how you define a trunk but yeah. that's one parameter. you can do okay so these things have a. hundred billion parameters so they're. able to deal with very complex issues. all kinds of trunks. human beings actually have a little bit. more than that but they're getting to. the point where they can emulate humans. um. if we were able to connect this to our. neocortex. we would basically add.

more of these. abilities to make distinctions. and it could ultimately be much smaller. and also be attached to information that. we feel is reliable. um so that's where we're headed so you. think that there will be a merger in the. 30s. an increasing amount of merging between. the either human brain and the. ai brain. exactly. and the ai brain is really an.

emulation of human beings i mean that's. why we're creating them. because human beings act the same way. and this is basically to amplify them i. mean this amplifies our brain um. it's a little bit clumsy to interact. with but it definitely. it's a. you know way beyond what what we had 15. years ago. but the implementation becomes different. just like a bird versus the airplane the. even though the ai brain is an emulation.

it starts adding features we might not. otherwise. have like ability to consume a huge. amount of. information quickly like look up. thousands of wikipedia articles in one. take. exactly. we can get. for example issues like simulated. biology where it can. uh simulate. many different things at once. we already had one example of simulated. biology which is the moderna vaccine.

and that's going to be now the way in. which we create. medications. but they were able to simulate. what each. example of an mrna would do to a human. being and they were able to simulate. that quite reliably. and we actually simulated billions of. different mrna sequences. and they found the ones that they were. the best and they created the vaccine.

and they did and talked about doing that. quickly. they did that in two days now how long. would a human being take to simulate. billions of different mrna sequences i i. don't know that we could do it at all. but it would. take many years. they did it in two days. and. one of the reasons that people didn't. like vaccines. is because it was done too quickly you. know it's done too fast. and they actually included the time it.

took to test it out which was 10 months. so they figured okay it took 10 months. to create this. actually it took us two days. and we also will be able to ultimately. do the tests in a few days as well. oh because we can stimulate how the body. will respond to it yeah. that's a little bit more complicated. because the body's. has a lot of different. elements and we have to simulate all of. that. but that's coming as well. so ultimately we could create it in a. few days and then test it in a few days.

and would be done. uh and we can do that with every type of. medical ins you know insufficiency that. we have. so curing all diseases. yeah. improving. certain functions of the body. supplements drugs. for recreation for health for. performance for productivity all that. well that's where we're headed because i. mean right right now we have a very. inefficient way of creating these new.

medications. um. but we've already shown it and the. moderna vaccine is actually the best. uh of the of the vaccines we've had. and it literally took two days to create. uh and we'll get to the point where we. can test it out also quickly. are you impressed by alpha fold. and uh the the solution to the protein. folding which essentially is simulating. modeling this.

primitive building block of life which. is a protein and it's 3d shape. it's pretty remarkable that they can. actually predict what the 3d shape of. these things are but they did it with. the same. type of neural net that. won for example the go. uh test. so it's all the same. it's all the same. they took that same thing. and just changed the rules to chess. and within a couple of days it now.

played a master level of chess greater. than any human being. and and the same thing then worked for. alpha foam. uh which no human had done i mean human. beings could do. the best humans could maybe do 15. 20. uh. of figuring out what the shape would be. and. this after a few takes it out it. ultimately did just about 100 percent.

do you still think the singularity will. happen in 2045. and what does that look like. you know once we can. amplify our brain with computers. directly. which will happen in the 2030s that's. going to keep growing. it's another whole theme which is the. exponential growth of computing power. yeah so looking at price performance of. computation from 1939 to 2021. right so.

that starts. with the very first computer actually. created by german during world war ii. and you might have. thought that that might be significant. but actually the germans. didn't think computers were significant. and they completely rejected it. and the second one was also the zeus ii. and by the way we're looking at a plot. with the x-axis being the year from 1935. to. 2025. and on the y-axis and log scale is.

competition per second per. constant dollar so dollar normalized. inflation. and it's growing linearly on the log. scale which means it's growing. exponentially the third one was the. british computer. which the allies did take very seriously. and it cracked the. german. code. and enabled the british to win the. battle of britain. which otherwise absolutely would not. have happened if they hadn't cracked the. code using that.

computer but that's an exponential graph. so a straight line on that graph is. exponential growth. and you see 80 years of exponential. growth. and. i would say about every five years and. this happened shortly before the. pandemic. people saying well they call it moore's. law which is not the correct. because that's not all intel. in fact it started decades before intel. was even created. it wasn't with transistors formed into a.

grid. so it's not just transistor count or. transistor size right that's a bunch of. stars. relays. then went to vacuum tubes. then went to individual. transistors. and and then to integrated circuits. um. and the. integrated circuits actually starts like. in the middle of this graph. and it has nothing to do with intel. intel actually was.

a key part of this. but a few years ago they they stopped. making the. fastest chips. uh. but if you take the fastest chip of any. technology. in that year. you get this kind of graph. and it's definitely continuing for 80. years so you don't think moore's law. broadly defined. is dead. it's been declared dead multiple times. throughout this process i don't like the.

term moore's law because it has nothing. to do with moore or with the intel. but yes. the exponential growth of computing is. continuing. yes and has never stopped from various. sources i mean it went through world war. ii it went through. global recessions. it's just continuing. and if you continue that out. along with. software gains which is a whole other. issue.

and they really multiply whatever you. get from software gains you multiply by. the computer gains. you get faster and faster speed. uh this is actually the fastest computer. models. that have been created and that actually. expands. roughly twice a year like every six. months it expands by two. so we're looking at a plot from 2010 to. 2022. on the x-axis is the publication date of.

the model and the perhaps sometimes the. actual paper associated with it and on. the y-axis is training compute and flops. and so basically this is. looking at the increase in the. not transistors but the computational. power of neural networks yeah it's the. computational power that created these. models. and that's doubled every six months. which is even faster than transistor. division yeah.

actually since it goes faster than the. the amount of cost. this has actually become a greater. investment. to create these. but at any rate by the time we get to. 2045. we'll be able to multiply our. intelligence many millions fold. and it's just very hard to imagine what. that would be like. and that's the singularity what we can't. even imagine right that's why we call it. the singularity because the singularity.

in physics. something gets sucked into its. singularity and you can't tell what's. going on in there. because no information can get out of it. there's various problems with that but. that's the idea it's too. um. it's too much beyond what we can imagine. do you think it's possible we don't. notice. that what the singularity actually feels. like. is we just live through it. with exponentially increasing.

uh cognitive capabilities. and we almost because everything's. moving so quickly don't. aren't really able to introspect that. our life has changed yeah but i mean we. will have that much greater capacity to. understand things so we should be able. to look back. looking at history understand history. but but we will need people. basically like you and me to actually. think about this think about it. but we might be distracted by all the.

other sources of entertainment and fun. because. the exponential power of intellect is. growing but also. there'll be a lot of fun uh. the the amount of ways you can have you. know i mean we already have a lot of fun. with computer games and so on that are. really quite remarkable. what do you think about uh the digital. world uh the metaverse. virtual reality will that have a. component in this or will most of our.

advancement be in physical realm well. that's a little bit like second life. although the second life actually didn't. work very well because it couldn't. actually handle too many people and. i don't think the metaverse has. come to being i think there will be. something like that. it won't necessarily be. from that one company. i mean there's going to be competitors. but yes we're going to live increasingly. online. and particularly when if our brains are. online i mean how could we not be online.

do you think it's possible that given. this merger with ai most of our. meaningful. interactions will be in this. virtual world. most of our life we fall in love we make. friends. we come up with ideas we do. collaborations we have fun i actually. know somebody who's marrying somebody. that they never met yeah. uh i think they just met her briefly. before the wedding but she actu she. actually fell in love with this other.

person. uh never having met them. uh and i think it's. i think the love is real so. that's a beautiful story but do you. think that story. is one that might be experienced as. opposed to by. hundreds of thousands of people but. instead by hundreds of millions of. people. i mean it really gives you appreciation. for these virtual ways of. communicating. uh and if anybody can do it then it's.

really not such a. freak story uh so i think more and more. people will do that. but that's turning our back on our. entire history of evolution or the old. days we used to fall in love by. holding hands. and sitting by the fire that kind of. stuff here you're actually i actually. have five patents on where you can hold. hands. even if you're separated. great um. so the touch the sense it's all just.

senses it's all just yeah i mean. it is. it's not just that you're touching. someone or not there's a whole way of. doing it and it's very subtle and. but ultimately we can. emulate. all of that. are you excited by that future. do you worry about that future. i have certain worries about the future. but not not that virtual touch. [Laughter]. well i agree with you.

you described six stages in the. evolution of information processing in. the universe as you started to describe. can you maybe. talk through some of those stages from. the physics and chemistry to dna and. brains and then to the to the very end. to the very beautiful end. of this process well it actually gets. more rapid. so physics and chemistry that's how we. started. um.

the very beginning of the universe we. had lots of electrons and various things. traveling around. and and that took actually many billions. of years. kind of jumping ahead here. to kind of. some of the last stages where we have. things like love and creativity. it's really quite remarkable that that. happens. but finally physics and chemistry. created biology. and dna. and now you had actually one type of.

molecule that described the cutting edge. of this process. and we. go from physics and chemistry to biology. and finally biology created brains. i mean not all not everything that's. created by biology has a brain. but eventually brains came along. and all of this is happening faster and. faster yeah.

it created increasingly complex. organisms. another key thing is actually not just. brains but our thumb. because because there's a lot of animals. with brains even bigger than humans. elephants have a bigger brain. whales have a bigger brain. but they've not created technology. because they don't have a thumb. so that's one of the really key elements.

in the evolution of humans this uh. physical manipulator device right that's. useful for puzzle solving in the. physical reality so i could think i. could look at a tree and go oh i can. actually strip that branch down and. eliminate the leaves and carve it tip on. it and. great technology. uh and you can't do that if you don't. have a thumb. yeah um. so.

uh. thumbs and created technology. and technology also. had a memory. and now those memories are competing. with. the. scale and scope of human beings. and ultimately we'll go beyond it. and then we're going to merge. human technology with. uh. with human intelligence. and understand how human. intelligence works which i think we.

already do. and we're putting that into. uh. our human technology. so create the technology inspired by our. own intelligence and then that. technology supersedes us in terms of its. capabilities and we ride along or do do. you ultimately see it as we ride along. but a lot of people don't see that they. say well. okay you've got humans and you've got. machines and there's no way we can. ultimately compete with humans and you.

can already see that. lisa dahl who's like the best. go player in the world says he's not. going to play go anymore yeah. because playing go for human that was. like the ultimate in intelligence. because no one else could do that. but now a machine can actually go way. beyond him. and so he says well there's no point. playing it anymore. that may be more true for games than it. is for life.

i think there's a lot of benefit to. working together with ai in regular life. so. if you were to put a probability on it. is it more likely that we merge with ai. or ai replaces us. a lot of people. just think. computers come along they compete with. them we can't really compete and that's. the end of it. as opposed to. them. increasing our abilities. and if you look at most. technology it increases our abilities.

i mean look at the history of work. look at what people did 100 years ago. does any of that exist anymore people. i mean if you were to predict. that all of these jobs would go away. and would be done by machines people. would say well that's going to be no. one's going to have jobs and. it's going to be massive unemployment. um. but i show in this book that's coming.

out. the amount of. people that are working. even as a percentage of the population. has gone way up. we're looking at the x-axis year from. 1774 to 2024. and on the y-axis personal income per. capita. in constant dollars and it's growing. super linearly i mean it's 20 21. constant dollars. and it's gone way up. that's not what you were to predict.

given that we would predict that all. these jobs would go away. yeah but the reason it's gone up is. because we've basically enhanced our own. capabilities by using these machines as. opposed to them just competing with us. that's a key way in which we're going to. be able to become far smarter than we. are now by. increasing. the number of different parameters we. can consider and making a decision. i was very fortunate i am very fortunate. to be able to. get a glimpse preview of your.

upcoming book. uh. singularity's nearer and uh. one of the themes outside of just. discussing the increasing exponential. growth of technology one of the themes. is. that. things are getting better in all aspects. of life. and you talk just about. just about this so one of the things. you're saying is with jobs so let me. just ask about that there is a big. concern that automation.

especially. powerful ai will. get rid of jobs where people will lose. jobs and as you were saying the sense is. throughout. history of the 20th century automation. did not do that ultimately. and so the question is will this time be. different. right that is the question will this. time be different. and it really has to do with how quickly. we can merge with this type of. intelligence.

whether. lambda or gpt-3 is out there and maybe. it's overcome some of its. you know key problems. and we really have an enhanced human. intelligence. that might be a negative scenario. um. but i mean that's. that's why we create technologies to. enhance ourselves. and i believe we will be enhanced. we're not just going to sit here with.

uh. 300 million. modules in our neocortex we're going to. be able to go beyond that. um. because that's useful but we can. multiply that by 10. a hundred thousand. a million. um. and you might think well what's the. point of doing that.

it's like. asking somebody that's never heard music. well. what's the value of music i mean you. can't appreciate it until you've created. it. there's some worry that there'll be a. wealth disparity. you know. class or wealth disparity only the rich. people. will be. basically the rich people will first. have access to this kind of thing and. then because of this kind of thing. because the ability to merge will get. richer.

exponentially faster and i say that's. just like cell phones. i mean there's like 4 billion cell. phones in the world today. in fact when cell phones first came out. you had to be fairly wealthy they. weren't very inexpensive. she had to have some wealth in order to. afford them yeah there were these big. sexy headphones and they didn't work. very well they did almost nothing. so. you can only afford these things if. you're wealthy.

at a point where they really don't work. very well. so um so achieving scale is and uh. making it inexpensive as part of making. the thing work well. exactly. so these are not totally cheap but. they're pretty pretty cheap yeah i mean. you can get them for a few hundred. dollars. especially given the kind of things it. provides for you there's a lot of people. in the third world that. have very little but they have a. smartphone yeah absolutely.

and the same will be true with ai i mean. i see homeless people have their own. cell phones and. yeah so your sense is any kind of. advanced technology. will take the same trajectory. right it ultimately becomes cheap and. will be affordable. i probably would not be the first person. to. put. something in my brain to connect to. computers. because i think it will have limitations.

but once it's. really perfected. and at that point it'll be pretty. inexpensive i think it'll be pretty. affordable. so. in which other ways as you outline your. book is life getting better because i. think well i have i mean i have 50. charts in there yeah where everything is. getting better. i think there's a kind of cynicism about. um like if even if we look at extreme. poverty for example for example this is. actually a poll.

taken on extreme poverty. and then people were asked. has poverty gotten better or worse. and the options are increased by 50. percent increase by 25 percent remain. the same decreased by 25 degrees by 50. if you're watching this or listening to. this try to to try to vote for yourself. 70 thought it had gotten worse. and that's the general impression. 88. thought it had gotten worse or remained.

the same. only one percent thought it decreased by. 50. and that is the answer. it actually decreased by 50 percent so. only one percent of people got the right. optimistic estimate of how poverty is. right and and this is the reality and. it's true of almost everything. you look at. you don't want to go back 100 years or. 50 years. things were quite miserable then but we. tend not to. remember that so literacy rate.

increasing. over the past few centuries across all. the different nations. nearly to 100 across many of the nations. in the world it's gone way up average. years of education have gone way up. life expectancy is also increasing. life expectancy was. 48. in 1900 and is over 80 now and it's. going to continue to go up particularly. as we get into more advanced stages of.

simulated biology. for life expectancy these trends are the. same for at birth age 1 age 5 age 10 so. it's not just the infant mortality and i. have 50 more graphs in the book about. all kinds of things. uh even spread of democracy. we're trying to. bring up some sort of controversial. issues it still has gone way up. well that one is uh it's gone way up but. that one is a bumpy road right. exactly and some somebody might.

represent democracy and. and go backwards but. we basically had no democracies before. the. creation of the united states which was. a little over two centuries ago. which in the scale of human history. isn't that long. do you think superintelligence systems. will help. with democracy. so what is democracy democracy is giving. a voice. to. the populace.

and. having their ideas having their beliefs. having. their views represented. well i hope so. i mean we've seen social networks. can spread. uh conspiracy theories uh which have. been quite negative. being for example. being against. any kind of stuff that would help your. health. so those kinds of ideas.

have. uh on social media what you notice is. they increase engagement so dramatic. division increases engagement. do you worry about ai systems that will. learn to maximize that division. i mean i do have some concerns about. this. and i have a chapter in the book about. the perils of. advanced a.i. um.

spreading misinformation on social. networks is one of them but uh there are. many others. what's the one that worries you the most. that we should think about to try to. avoid. well it's hard to choose. we do have the nuclear power. that. evolved when i was a child i remember in. we would actually do these.

drills against a nuclear war we'd get. under our desks and put our hands behind. our heads. to protect us from a nuclear war. seems to work we're still around so. um. you're protected. but. that's still a concern. and there are key dangerous situations. that can. take place. in biology. someone could create a. virus.

that's. very. i mean we have viruses that are. hard to spread. and they can be very dangerous. and we have viruses that are easy to. spread but they're not so dangerous. um. somebody could create something that. would be very easy to spread and very. dangerous. and be very hard to stop. uh it could be.

something that would spread without. people noticing because people could get. it they'd have no symptoms. and then everybody would get it and then. symptoms would occur maybe a month later. so i mean. and that. and that actually doesn't occur normally. because if we were to to. uh have a problem with that we wouldn't. exist. so the fact that humans exist means that. we don't have.

viruses that can. spread easily and kill us. because otherwise we wouldn't exist. yeah viruses don't want to do that they. want they want to spread and keep the. host alive yeah somewhat so you can. describe various dangers with biology. uh also nanotechnology. uh which we actually haven't experienced. yet but there are people that creating. nanotechnology and i describe that in. the book. now you're excited by the possibilities. of nanotechnology of nanobots.

of being able to do things inside our. body inside our mind that's going to. help. what's exciting what's terrifying about. nanobots. what's exciting is that that's a way to. communicate with our neocortex. because it's. each neocortex is pretty small and you. need a small. entity that can actually get in there. and establish a communication channel. and. that's going to really be necessary to. connect our brains.

to. ai. within ourselves. because otherwise it would be hard for. us to compete with it. in a high bandwidth way yeah. yeah and that's key actually because a. lot of the. things. like neural ink are really not high band. within. so nanobots is the way you achieve high. bandwidth how much intelligence would. those nanobots have. yeah they don't need a lot. just enough to. basically establish a communication.

channel to one nanobot so it's primarily. about communication yeah between. external computing devices and. our biological. thinking machine. what worries you about nanobots is it. similar to with the viruses. well i mean this is the great goo. channel challenge yes um. if you had. a nanobot. that.

wanted to create any any kind of entity. and repeat itself. and was able to operate in a natural. environment. it could turn everything into that. entity and basically destroy all uh. biological life. so you mentioned. nuclear weapons yeah. i'd love to hear your opinion about the.

21st century and whether you think we. might destroy ourselves. and maybe your opinion. if it has changed by looking at what's. going on in ukraine. that we could have a hot war. with nuclear powers involved. and the tensions building. and the seeming. forgetting of how terrifying and. destructive nuclear weapons are. do you think.

humans might destroy ourselves in the. 21st century and if we do how. and how do we avoid it. i don't think that's going to happen. despite. the terrors of that war. it is a possibility. but i mean i i don't. it's unlikely in your mind. yeah even with the tensions we've had. with this one. nuclear power plant that's been taken. over.

um. it's very tense. but i don't actually see a lot of people. worrying that that's going to happen. i think we'll avoid that we had two. nuclear bombs go off in 45. so now we're. 77 years later yeah we're doing pretty. good. we've never had another one go off. through anger. but people forget. people forget the lessons of history.

well yeah that's how i mean i am worried. about it i mean that. that is definitely a. challenge. but you believe that. we'll make it out and ultimately super. intelligent ai will help us make it out. as opposed to uh destroy us. i think so. but we we do have to be mindful of these. dangers. and and there are other dangers besides. nuclear weapons. so. to get back to. merging with ai.

we would be able to upload our mind in a. computer. in a way where we might even. transcend the constraints of our bodies. so copy our mind into a computer and. leave the body behind. let me describe one thing i've already. done with my father. that's a great story. so we we created technology this is. public came out i think. six years ago where you could.

ask any question. and the release product which i think is. still on the market. it would read 200 000 books. and then and then find the one sentence. in 200 000 books that best answered your. question. uh it's actually quite interesting you. can ask all kinds of questions and you. get the best answer in 200 000 books. but i was also able to to take it and.

uh not go through 200 000 books but go. through a book that i'd. put together. which is basically everything my father. had written. so everything he had written i had. gathered. and we created a book. everything that. frederick is all had written now. i didn't think this actually would work. that well because. uh stuff he'd written was. stuff about how to lay out.

i mean he. did. directed coral groups and. music. groups and he would be laying out how. the people should. where they should sit and. and uh how to fund this and. all kinds of things that really weren't. didn't seem that interesting. um. and yet when you asked a question it. would go through it and it would.

actually. give you a very good answer. so i said well you know who's the most. interesting composer and he said well. definitely brahms he would go on about. how promise was. fabulous and. talk about the importance of music. education and. so you could have a essentially uh uh. can i have a conversation with him which. was actually more interesting. than talking to him because if you talk. to him he'd be concerned about. how they're going to lay out this.

property to give a coral group. he'd be concerned about the day-to-day. versus the big questions exactly yeah. and you did ask about the meaning of. life and he answered love yeah. do you miss him. yes i do um. you know you get used to missing. somebody after. 52 years. and i didn't really have.

intelligent conversations with them. until later in life. in the last few years he was sick which. meant he was home a lot and i was. actually able to talk to him about. different things like music and other. things and. so i missed that pretty much. what did you learn about life from your. father. what what part of him is is with you now. he was devoted to music.

and when he would create something. to music it put him in a different world. otherwise he was very shy. and if people got together he tended not. to interact with people. just because it was china's. but when he created music that. he was like a different person. do you have that in you that yeah kind. of light that shines i mean i.

i got involved. with technology at like age five. and you fell in love with it in the same. way he did with music yeah. yeah. i remember. this actually happened with my. grandmother. she had a manual typewriter. and she wrote a book one life is not. enough. it's actually a. good title for a book i might write but. and it was about a school she had. created.

well actually. her mother created it. so my mother's mother's mother created. the school in 1868. and it was the first school in europe. that provided higher education for girls. it went through 14th grade. if you were a girl and you were lucky. enough to get an education at all. it would go through like ninth grade. and many people didn't have any. education as a girl. this went through 14th grade. um.

her mother created it she took it over. and the and the book was about. the history of the school and her. involvement with it. um. when she presented to me i was. not so interested in the story of the of. the school. but i was totally amazed. with this manual typewriter. i mean here is something you could put a. blank piece of paper into. and you could turn it into something.

that looked like it came from a book. and you could actually type on it and it. looked like it came from a book it was. just amazing to me. and i could see actually how it worked. and i was also interested in magic. but in magic if somebody actually knows. how it works the magic goes away the. magic doesn't stay there if you actually. understand how it works. but he was technology i didn't have that. word when i was five or six.

and the magic was still there for you. the magic was still there even if you. knew how it worked yeah. so i became totally interested in this. and then went around collected little. pieces of mechanical objects. from bicycles from broken radios i go. through the. neighborhood uh this was an era where. you would allow five or six-year-olds to. like roam through the neighborhood and. do this. we don't do that anymore but. i didn't know how to put them together i.

said if i could just figure out how to. put these things together i could solve. any problem. and i actually remember talking to these. very old girls i think they were 10. and telling them if i could just figure. this out like we could fly we could do. anything and. they said well you have quite an. imagination. um. and then like. then when i was in third grade.

so it was like eight. created like a virtual reality theater. where people could come on stage and. they could move their arms. and all of it was controlled through one. control box it was all done with. mechanical technology. and it was a big hit in my third grade. class. and then i went on to do things in. junior high school science fairs and and. high school science fairs i won the. westinghouse science talent search.

so i mean i became committed to. technology when i was. five or six years old. you've talked about. how you use lucid dreaming to think to. come up with ideas as a source of. creativity because you maybe. talk through that. maybe the process of how to you've. invented a lot of things. you've came up and thought through some. very interesting. ideas what advice would you give or.

can you speak to the process of thinking. of how to think how to think creatively. well i mean sometimes i will think. through in a dream and try to. interpret that but. i think the key. issue that i would. tell. younger people. is to put yourself in the position. what you're trying to create. already exists.

and then. you're explaining. like. how it works. exactly. that's really interesting you paint a. world that you. would like to exist you think it exists. and reverse engineering then you. actually imagine you're giving a speech. about how you created this well you'd. have to then work backwards as to. how you would create it in order to. make it work. that's brilliant and that requires. uh.

some imagination too some first. principles thinking. you have to visualize that world that's. really interesting. and. generally when i talk about things we're. trying to invent i would use the present. tense as if it already exists. not just to give myself that confidence. but everybody else who's working on. um it. just have to kind of. uh. do all the steps in order to make it. actual. actual.

how much of a good idea is about timing. how much is it about your genius versus. that its time has come. timing's very important i mean that. that's really why i got into futurism. i'm not i didn't. i wasn't inherently a futurist that. there's not really my goal. uh. it's really to to figure out when things. are feasible. we see that now with large-scale models.

they're very large-scale models like. gpt-3. it started two years ago. four years ago it wasn't feasible in. fact they did create. gpt-2. which didn't work. so it required a certain amount of. timing. having to do with this exponential. growth of computing power. so futurism in some sense is a study of. timing.

trying to understand how the world will. evolve yeah and when. will the capacity for certain ideas. and that's become a thing in itself and. to try to time things in the future. uh but really it's a original. purpose was to tie my. products. i mean i did. ocr in the 1970s. because ocrs. doesn't require a lot of computation.

optical character recognition so we were. able to do that in the 70s. and i waited till the 80s to address. speech recognition. since that requires. more computation so you were thinking. through timing when you're developing. those things yeah has its time come. yeah. and that's how you've developed that. brain power to start to think in a. futurist sense when. how will the world look like. in 2045 and work backwards yeah and how.

it gets there but that has become a. thing in itself because. looking at what. uh things will be like in the future. reflect such dramatic changes in. in how humans will live. that was worth communicating also. so you developed that. muscle of of predicting the future and. then apply it broadly. and start to discuss. how it changes the world of technology.

how it changes the world of human life. on earth. in danielle. one of your books you write about. someone who has the courage to question. assumptions that limit. human imagination to solve problems. and you also give advice and. how each of us can have this kind of um. courage it's good that you picked that. quote because i think that does. symbolize what danielle is about courage. so how can each of us have that courage.

to quest question assumptions. i mean we see that when people. can beyond the current. round and create something that's new. i mean take uber for example before that. existed. you never thought that that would be. feasible. and it did require changes in the way. people work. is there practical. advices you give in the book about. each what each of us can do to be a.

danielle. well she looks at the situation and. tries to imagine. uh. how she can overcome various. obstacles. and then she goes for it. and she's a very good communicator so. she can communicate. these ideas to other people. and there's practical advice of learning. to program and. recording your life.

and things of this nature become a. physicist. so you list a bunch of different uh. suggestions of how to throw yourself. into this world yeah i mean it's kind of. a. idea how young people can actually. change the world. by uh. learning all of these different. skills. and at the core of that is the belief. that you can change the world. that your mind your body can change the.

world yeah. that's right. and not letting anyone else tell you. otherwise. it's pretty good exactly. when we upload. the story you told about your dad. and having a conversation with him we're. talking about uploading your mind to the. computer. do you think we'll have a future with. something you call uh afterlife we'll. have avatars that mimic. increasingly better and better our. behavior our appearance all that kind of.

stuff. even those are perhaps not no longer. with us. yes i mean. we need. some information about about them. i mean think about my father. i have what he wrote. now he didn't have a word processor. so he didn't actually write. that much. and our memories of him aren't perfect. so how do you even know if you've. created. something that's satisfactory now you.

could do a rake frederick kurzweil. turing test. it seems like frederick kurzweil to me. but the people who remember him like me. don't have a perfect. memory. is there such a thing as a perfect. memory maybe. the whole point. is for. him to make you feel. a certain way yeah well i think that. would be the goal. and that's the connection we have with. loved ones it's not really based on.

very strict definition of truth it's. more about the experiences we share yeah. and they get more through memory. but ultimately they make us smile i. think we we definitely can do that. and that would be very worthwhile. so do you think we'll have a world of. replicants. of copies would there be a bunch of. raker as well as. like i could hang out with one i can. download it. for five bucks. and have a best friend ray.

and uh you the original copy wouldn't. even know about it. um. is that do you think that world is. um first of all do you think that world. is feasible and do you think there's. ethical challenges there like how would. you feel about me hanging out with raker. as well and you not knowing about it. doesn't strike. uh me as a problem. um which would you. the original would you would that.

cause a problem for you. no i i. would really very much enjoy it no not. just hang out with me but if somebody. hanging out with you. a replicant of you. well i think i would start it sounds. exciting but then. what if they. start doing better than me. and take take over my friend group. and then and then i'll. because. because they may be.

an imperfect copy. or there may be more social or these. kinds of things and then i become like. the old version that's not not nearly as. exciting. maybe they're a copy of the best version. of me on a good day yeah. but if you hang out with a replicant of. me and that turned out to be successful. i'd feel proud of that person because it. was based on me so. so it's but it is a kind of. death of this version of you.

well not necessarily i mean you can. still be alive right. but. and you would be pro okay so it's like. having kids and you're proud that. they've done even more than you were. able to do yeah exactly. uh it does bring up new issues but. uh it seems like an opportunity. well that that replicant should probably. have the same rights as you do. well that.

that gets into a whole issue. [Music]. uh. because when a replicant occurs they're. not necessarily going to have your. rights. and if a replicant occurs to somebody. who's already dead. do they have all the. obligations and. that the original person had did they. have all the agreements that they had. so. i think you're going to have to have. laws that say yes.

there has to be if you want to create a. replicant. they have to have all the same rights as. human rights well. you don't know someone could create a. replica and say well it's a replicant. but i didn't bother getting their rights. and so yeah but that would be illegal i. mean. like if you do that you have to do that. in the black market. you have to if you want to get an. official replica okay it's not so easy. suppose you created multiple replicants. uh. the original. rights. uh. maybe for one person and not for a whole.

group of per people. sure so. uh so there has to be at least one. and then all the other ones kind of. share the rights. yeah i just don't i don't think that. that's very difficult to conceive for us. humans the the the the idea that we. don't create a replicant. that has certain. i mean i've talked to people about this. including my wife who would like to get. back her father.

um. and she doesn't worry about. who has rights to what. she she would have somebody that she. could visit with and like give her some. satisfaction. uh. and they wouldn't. she wouldn't care about any of these. other rights what does your wife think. about multiple array cores walls. well you had that discussion i wouldn't. address that weather. i think i think ultimately that's an. important question loved ones.

how they feel about there's a there's. something about love that's the key. thing right if the loved one's rejected. it's not going to work very well so. so the loved ones really are the key to. terminate whether or not this. works or not. but there's also ethical rules. um we have to contend with the idea and. we have to contend with that idea with. ai but what's going to motivate it is.

i mean i talk to people who really miss. people who are gone and they would love. to get. something back even if it isn't perfect. and that's what's going to motivate this. and that person. lives on in some form. and the more data we have the more we're. able to reconstruct that person. and allow them to live on right. and eventually as we go forward we're.

going to have more and more of this data. because we're going to have. nanobots that are inside our neocortex. and we're going to collect a lot of data. in fact anything that's data is is. always collected. there's something. a little bit sad which is becoming. or maybe it's hopeful. which. is more and more common these days. which when a person passes away you have. their twitter account.

you know and you have. the last tweet they tweeted. like something and you can recreate them. now with large language models and so on. i mean you can create somebody that's. just like them and can actually continue. to. communicate i think that's really. exciting because i think. in some sense. like if i were to die today. in some sense i would continue on if i. continued tweeting. i tweet therefore i am. yeah well in some sense i mean that's.

one of the advantages of. a replicant that can recreate. the communications of that. that person. do you. hope do you think do you hope. humans will become a multi-planetary. species. you've talked about the phases the six. epics and one of them is reaching out. into the stars in part yes but. uh the kind of attempts i'm making now. to go to other. planetary.

objects. doesn't excite me that much. because it's not really advancing. anything it's not. efficient enough yeah. we're also putting out other. uh. human beings which is a very. inefficient way to explore these other. objects. what i'm really talking about in the in. the. sixth epic. universe wakes up.

it's where we can spread our super. intelligence. throughout the universe. and that doesn't mean. sending very soft squishy creatures like. humans yeah. the universe wakes up. i mean we would sense. intelligence masses of nanobots which. can then. go out and um. colonize these these other parts of the. universe. do you think there's intelligent alien.

civilizations out there. that our bots might meet. my hunch is no. most people say yes absolutely i mean. the. universe and it's too big and they'll. cite the drake. equation. and and i think in uh singularities near. i have two analyses of the drake. equation. both with very reasonable assumptions. and one gives you.

thousands of. advanced civilizations in each galaxy. and another one gives you one. civilization. and we know of one. a lot of the analyses. are forgetting the exponential growth of. of computation. because we've gone. from where the fastest way i could send. a message to somebody was with a pony.

which was what like uh a century and a. half ago yeah. uh to. the advanced civilization we have today. and and if you accept what i've said. go forward a few decades you can have. absolutely fantastic amount of. civilization. compared to a pony and that's in a. couple hundred years. yeah the speed and the scale of. information transfer is just exp is. growing exponentially. in a blink of an eye. now think about these other. civilizations.

they're going to be spread out at cosmic. times. so if something is like ahead of us or. behind us it could be ahead of us or. behind us by. maybe millions of years. which isn't that much i mean the the. world is. billions of years old. 14 billion or something. so. even a thousand years. if two or three hundred years just. enough to go from a pony to fantastic.

amount of civilization. we would see that. so of other civilizations that have. occurred. okay some might be hot behind us but. some might be ahead of us. if they're ahead of us they're ahead of. us by. thousands millions of years and they. would be so far beyond us they would be. doing galaxy-wide engineering yeah but. we don't see anything doing galaxy web. engineering.

so either they don't exist. or this very universe. is a construction of an alien species. we're living inside a video game. well that's another explanation that yes. you've got some teenage kids in another. civilization. do you do you find compelling the. simulation hypothesis as a thought. experiment that we're living in a. simulation the universe is. computational. so we are an example.

in a. computational world. therefore. uh it is a simulation it doesn't. necessarily mean an experiment by. some high school kid in another world. but it's nonetheless. is taking place in a computational world. and everything that's going on is is. basically. a form of of computation. um. so you really have to define what you.

mean by. uh. this whole world being a simulation well. then it's. it's the teenager that. that makes the video game you know us. humans with our current limited. cognitive capability. have. strived to understand ourselves and we. have. created religions. we think of god. whatever that is.

do you think god exists. and if so who is god. i alluded to this before we we started. out with. lots of particles going around yeah and. there's nothing that represents. love. and. creativity. um. and somehow we've gotten into a world. where love actually exists. and that has to do actually with. consciousness because you can't have.

love without consciousness. so to me that's god the fact that we. have something where. love where you can be devoted to someone. else and and really feel that. love. um. that's that's god. and if you look at the old testament. it was actually created by several. different. rabbinates. in there. and i think they've identified three of.

them. one one of them. dealt with god. as a person that you can make deals with. and he gets angry and he. wrecks. vengeance on various people. but two of them actually talk about god. as a symbol of love and peace and. harmony and. so forth uh that's how they describe god.

and so that's my view of god. not not as a person in the sky that you. can make deals with. it's whatever the magic that goes from. basic elements. to things like consciousness and love. do you think. one of the things i find extremely. beautiful and powerful is cellular. automata which you also touch on. do you think whatever the heck happens. in cellular automata where interesting. complicated objects emerge.

god is in there too. the emergence of love. in this. seemingly privileged earth of creating a. replicant. is that. they would love you and you would love. them. there wouldn't be much point of doing it. if that didn't happen. but all of it i guess what i'm saying. about cellular automata is. it's a primitive building blocks and. they somehow create.

beautiful things. is there some deep truth to that. about how our universe works is the the. emergence from simple rules. beautiful complex objects can emerge. is that the thing that made us. yeah as we went through all the six. phases of reality. that's a good way to look at it. it just makes them point to the whole. value of. having a universe.

do you think about your own mortality. are you afraid of it. yes but i keep going back. to my. idea of being able to expand. human life. quickly enough. in advance of our getting there. longevity escape velocity. um. which we're not quite at yet. but i think we're actually pretty close.

particularly with for example doing. simulated biology. uh i think we can probably get there. within. say by the end of this decade. and that's my goal. you hope to achieve the longevity escape. velocity. you hope to achieve immortality. well immortality is hard to say i can't. really come on your program saying i've. done it i've achieved immortality right. because it's never forever.

um. a long time a long time of living well. but we'd like to actually advance human. life expectancy advance my life. expectancy. more than a year. every year. and i think we can get there within by. the end of this decade. how do you think we do it. so there's practical things um. and transcend the nine steps to living. well forever your book you describe. just that there's practical things like. health.

exercise all those things yeah i mean we. live in a body that doesn't. last. forever. there's no reason why it can't though. and we're discovering things i think. that will extend it. um. but you do have to deal with i mean i've. got various. issues. went to mexico. 40 years ago. developed salmonella. that created pancreatitis.

which gave me a strange form of diabetes. it's not. type 1 diabetes because that's an. autoimmune disorder that destroys your. pancreas i don't have that. but it's also not type 2 diabetes. because type 2 diabetes is your pancreas. works fine but your cells don't absorb. the insulin well. i don't have that either. the pancreatitis i had.

partially damaged my. pancreas but it was a one-time thing it. didn't continue. and i've learned now how to control it. but so that's just something i had to do. uh in order to. continue to exist. it's your particular biological system. you have to figure out a few hacks. and the is that science would be yeah. you have to do that much better actually. yeah. so i mean i i do spend a lot of time. just tinkering with my own body to keep.

it going. uh so i do think i'll. last. till the end of this decade and i think. we'll achieve longevity escape velocity. i think that we'll start with people who. are very diligent about this. eventually it'll become. sort of routine that people will be able. to do it so if you're talking about. kids today or even people in their 20s. or 30s it's really not. a very serious problem.

i have had some discussions with. relatives who were. like almost 100. and. saying well we're working on it as. quickly as possible then. i don't know if that's gonna work. is there a case this is a difficult. question but is there a case to be made. against. living forever. that. a finite life that mortality is a. feature not a bug. that that.

living. a shorter so dying makes. ice cream taste delicious. makes life intensely beautiful more than. uh. most people believe that weighing. except if you present a death of anybody. they. care about or love. they find that extremely depressing. and i know people who feel that way. 20 30. 40.

years later they still want them back. so i mean. death is not. something to celebrate. but. we've lived in a world where people just. accept this life is short you see it all. the time on tv life's short you have to. take advantage of it and nobody accepts. the fact that you could actually go. beyond. normal lifetimes. but any time we talk about death or.

death of a person. even one death is a terrible tragedy. if you have somebody that lives 200. years old we still. love them. in in return. and there's no limit. limitation to that in fact these kinds. of uh. trends are going to provide. greater and greater opportunity for. everybody even if we have more people. so let me ask about an alien species or.

a super intelligent ai 500 years from. now that will look back. and uh remember ray kurzweil version. zero. the uh before the replicants spread. uh how do you hope they remember you. in a um hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy. summary of ray kurzweil what do you hope. your legacy is. well i mean i do hope to be around so. that's some version of you yes so. um do you think you'll be the same.

person around. i mean am i the same person i was when i. was that's true he's 20 years old. you would be the same person. in that same way but yes we're different. we're doing um. what we have of that all you have of. that person is your memories which are. probably um. distorted in some way. you just remember the good parts. depending on your psyche. you might focus on the bad parts might. focus on the good parts.

right but. i mean i still have a relationship to. the way i was when i was earlier when i. was. younger. how will you and the other super. intelligent ais remember. you of today from 500 years ago. what do you hope to be remembered by. this version of you. before the singularity. well i think it's expressed well in my. books. trying to. create some new realities that people.

will accept i mean that's something that. gives me great. pleasure. and great. greater insight into what what makes. humans. valuable. i'm not the only person who's. uh tempted to. comment on that but. and uh optimism that permeates your work.

optimism about the future. it's ultimately that optimism paves the. way for building a better future yeah. i agree with that. so you uh asked. your dad about the meaning of life and. he said love. let me ask you the same question. what's the meaning of life. why are we here. this beautiful journey that we're on. in phase. fours reaching for phase five.

of this evolutionary information. processing why. well i think i'd give the same answers. as my father. um. because if there were no love and we. didn't care about anybody. there'd be no point existing. love is the meaning of life the ai. version of your dad had a good point. well i think that's a beautiful way to. end it. right thank you for your work thank you. for being who you are.

thank you for dreaming about a beautiful. future and uh creating it along the way. and thank you so much for. spending your really valuable time with. me today this was awesome well it's my. pleasure and uh you have some great. insights. both into me and into humanity as well. so i appreciate that. thanks for listening to this. conversation with raycor as well to. support this podcast please check out. our sponsors in the description and now. let me leave you with some words from.

isaac asimov. it is change continuous change. inevitable change that is the dominant. factor in society today. no sensible decision can be made any. longer without taking into account not. only the world as it is but the world as. it will be. this in turn means that our statesmen. our businessmen our every man. must take on a science fictional way of. thinking. thank you for listening and hope to see.

you next time. you.