Jordan Peterson: Life, Death, Power, Fame, and Meaning | Lex Fridman Podcast #313

- "Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.". - Right, but I would say, bring it on. If you gaze into the abyss long enough, you see the light, not the darkness. - Are you sure about that? - I'm betting my life on it. - The following is a conversation with Jordan Peterson, an influential psychologist, lecturer, podcast host,

and author of "Maps of Meaning", 12 Rules For Life" and "Beyond Order.". This is the Lex Fridman podcast, to support it please check out our sponsors. in the description. And now dear friends, here's Jordan Peterson. Dostoevsky wrote in "The Idiot", spoken through the character of Prince Myshkin. that beauty will save the world. Solzhenitsyn actually mentioned this. in his Nobel Prize acceptance speech.

What do you think does Dostoevsky meant by that? Was he right? - Well, I guess it's the divine that saves the world, let's say, you could say that by definition. And then you might say, "Well, are there pointers to that which will save the world. or that which eternally saves the world?". And the answer to that in all likelihood is yes. And that's maybe truth and love and justice. and the classical virtues, beauty perhaps in some sense.

foremost among them. That's a difficult case to make, but definitely a pointer. - Which direction is the arrow pointing? - Well, the arrow's pointing up. And no, I think that that which it points to is, what beauty points to, it transcends beauty. It's more than beauty. - And that speaks to the divine. - It points to the divine. Yeah, and I would say again by definition, 'cause we could define the divine in some real sense. So one way of defining the divine is what is divine to you.

is your most fundamental axiom. And you might say, "Well, I don't have a fundamental axiom.". Then I would say, "That's fine.". But then you're just confused. 'cause you have a bunch of contradictory axioms. And you might say, "Well, I have no axioms at all.". And then I'd say, "Well, you're just epistemologically. ignorant beyond comprehension if you think that, 'cause that's just not true at all.". - So you don't think a human being. can exist within contradictions? - Well, yeah we have to exist within contradiction, but when the contradictions make themselves manifest, say in confusion with regard to direction,

then the consequence of that technically is anxiety. and frustration and disappointment. and all sorts of other negative emotions. But the cardinal negative emotion signifying. multiple pathways forward is anxiety. It's an entropy signal. - But you don't think that kind of entropy signal. can be channeled into beauty, into love? Why does beauty and love have to be clear, ordered, simple?

- Well, I would say it probably doesn't have to be... It can't be reduced to clarity and simplicity. because when it's optimally structured, it's a balance between order and chaos. Not order itself. If it's too ordered, if music is too ordered, it's not acceptable. It sounds like a drum machine. It's too repetitive. It's too predictable. It has to have, well, it has to have some fire in it.

- Yes. - Along with the structure. I was in Miami doing a seminar on Exodus. with a number of scholars. And this is a beauty discussion. When Moses first encounters the burning bush, it's not a conflagration that demands attention. It's something that catches his attention. It's a phenomena and that means to shine forth. And Moses has to stop and attend to it and he does.

And he sees this fire that doesn't consume the tree. and the tree, the tree is a structure, right? It's a tree like structure. It's a branching structure. It's a hierarchical structure. It's a self-similar structure. It's a fractal structure, and it's the tree of life. and it's the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And the fire in it is the transformation. that's always occurring within every structure. And the fact that the fire doesn't consume the bush. in that representation is an indication of the balance.

of transformation with structure. And that balance is presented as God. And what attracts Moses to it, in some sense, is the beauty. Now it's the novelty and all that, but like a painting is like a burning bush. That's a good way of thinking about it. A great painting. It's too much for people often. My house was and will soon be again, completely covered with paintings inside. And it was hard on people to come in there.

because, well my mother, for example, say, well, "Why would you wanna live in a museum?". And I'd think, well, I would rather live in a museum. than anywhere else in some real sense. But beauty is daunting. It scares people. They're terrified of buying art, for example, because their taste is on display. and they should be terrified. because generally people have terrible taste. Now that doesn't mean they shouldn't foster it. and develop it but... And when you put your taste on display, it really exposes you.

- Even to yourself as you walk past it? - Oh definitely. - Every day. - Absolutely. - This is who I am. - Yeah, well, and look how mundane that is. and look how trite it is and look at how cliche it is. and look at how sterile or too ordered it is or too chaotic. - Or how quickly you start to take it for granted. because you've seen it so many times. - [Jordan] Well, if it's a real piece of art, that doesn't happen. - You notice the little details. - The whole is greater than the sum of the parts. I mean, there are images, religious images in particular. so we could call them deep images.

that people have been unpacking for 4,000 years. and still have, I'll give you an example. This is a terrible example. So I did a lecture series on Genesis. and I got a lot of it unpacked, but by no means all of it. When God kicks Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden, he puts cherubim with flaming swords at the gate. to stop human beings from reentering paradise.

I thought, what the hell does that mean, cherubim? And why do they have flaming swords? I don't get that. What is that exactly? And then I found out from Matthew Pageau. who wrote a great book on symbolism in Genesis. that cherubim are the supporting monsters of God. It's a very complicated idea. And that they're partly a representation of that. which is difficult to fit into conceptual systems. They've also got an angelic or demonic aspect,

take your pick. Why do they have flaming swords? Well, a sword is a symbol of judgment. and the separation of the wheat from the chaff, use a sword to cut away, to cut away and to carve. And a flaming sword is not only that which carves, it's that which burns. And what does it carve away and burn? Well, you wanna get into paradise? It carves away everything about you that isn't perfect.

And so what does that mean? Okay, well, here's part of what it means. This is a terrible thing. So you could say that the entire Christian narrative. is embedded in that image. Why? Well, let's say that flaming swords are a symbol of death. That seems pretty obvious. Let's say further that they're a symbol. of apocalypse and hell. That doesn't seem completely unreasonable. So here's an idea.

Not only do you have to face death, you have to face death and hell. before you can get to paradise. Hellish judgment and all that's embedded in that image. And a piece of art with an image like that. has all that information in it. And it shines forth in some fundamental sense. It reaches into the back tendrils of your mind. at levels you can't even comprehend and grips you. I mean, that's why people go to museums.

and gaze at paintings they don't understand. And that's why they'll pay... What's the most expensive objects in the world? If it's not carbon fiber racing yachts, it's definitely classic paintings, right? It's high level technological implements. or it's classic art. Well, why are those things so expensive? Why do we build temples to house the images? Even secular people go to museums. "I'm secular.". Well, are you in a museum? "Yes." Are you looking at art? "Yes.". Well, what makes you think you're secular then?

- It's arguable that the thing many, many centuries from now. that will remain of all of human civilization. will be our art. Not even the words. - Well, you know, a book has remained. a very long time, right? The biblical readings. - Not that long. - No, that's right. - But that's in the full arc. of living organisms. - Yeah. - Perhaps will not-. - Well, we have images that are, we have artistic images that are at least 50,000 years old,

right, that have survived. And some of those are, they're already profound in their symbolism. - By we, do you mean humans? - Yeah. We found them and they've lasted that long. And then think about Europe. Secular people all over the world. make pilgrimages to Europe. Well, why? Because of the beauty. Obviously, I mean, that's self-evident, and it's partly because there are things in Europe.

that are so beautiful they take your breath away, right? They make your hair stand on end. They fill you with a sense of awe. And we need to see those things. It's not optional. We need to see those things. The cathedrals. I was in the cathedral in Vienna. and it was terribly beautiful, you know? - Terribly beautiful. - Well, it was terribly beautiful. - Is beauty painful for you is? Is that the highest form of beauty? It really challenges you. - Oh, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. I got a good analysis of the Statue of David, Michelangelo statue,

says, "You could be far more than you are.". That's what that statue says. (Lex laughing). And this cathedral, we went down into. the understructure of it and there were three floors. of bones from the plague. And there they all are. And then that cathedral's on top of it. It's no joke to go visit a place like that. It rattles you to the core. And our religious systems have become.

propositionally dubious, but there's no arguing with the architecture, although modern architects like to with their sterility. and their giant middle fingers erected everywhere. But beauty is a terrible pointer to God. And you know, a secular person will say, "Well, I don't believe in God.". It's like, have it your way. You cannot move forward into the unforeseen horizon. of the future except on faith. And you might say, "Well, I have no faith.".

It's like, well, good luck with the future then, because what are you then? Nihilistic and hopeless and anxiety ridden. And if not, well, something's guiding you forward, it's faith in something or multiple things, which just makes you a polytheist, which I wouldn't recommend. - Well, let me ask you one short lived. biological meat bag to another, who is God then? Let's try to sneak up to this question.

if it's at all possible. Is it possible to even talk about this? - Well, it better be because otherwise. there's no communicating about it, right? It has to be something that can be brought down to earth. - Well, we might be too dumb to bring it down. - It's not just ignorant. It's also sinful, right? So, because there's not knowing. and then there's wanting to know or refusing to know. - Yeah. - And so you might say, "Well, could you extract God from a description. of the objective world, right?

Is God just the ultimate unity of the natural reality? And I would say, "Well, in a sense, there's some truth in that, but not exactly because God in the highest sense. is the spirit that you must emulate in order to thrive. How's that for a biological definition? Spirit is a pattern. The spirit that you must emulate in order to thrive. - So it's a kind of, in one sense, when we say the human spirit, it's that?

- It's an animating principle. Yeah. It's a meta, it's a pattern. And you might say, "Well, what's the pattern? Okay. Well, I can tell you that to some degree. Imagine that like your grip by beauty, you're gripped by admiration. And you can just notice this, this isn't proposition. You have to notice it. It's like, oh, turns out I admire that person. Hmm. So what does that mean? Well, it means I would like to be like him or her.

That's what admiration means. It means there's something about the way they are. that compels imitation, another instinct. Or inspires respect or awe even. Okay. What is that that grips you? Well, I don't know. Well, let's say, okay, fine. But it grips you and you wanna be like that. Kids hero worship, for example. So do adults for that matter, unless they become entirely cynical. - I worship quite a few heroes.

- Yeah. Well, there you go. - Proudly. - Yes. Well, there you go. And that worship, that celebration. and proclivity to imitate is worship. That's what worship means most fundamentally. Now imagine you took the set of all admirable people. and you extracted AI learning, you extracted out the central features. of what constitutes admirable. And then you did that repeatedly until you purified it. to what was most admirable. That's as good as you're gonna get.

in terms of a representation of God. And you might say, "Well, I don't believe in that.". It's like, well, what do you mean? - Yeah. - It's not a set. of propositional facts. It's not a scientific theory. about the structure of the objective world. And then I could say something about that too, 'cause I've been thinking about this a lot, especially since talking to Richard Dawkins. It's like, okay, the postmodernist types, going back way before Derrida and Foucault, maybe back to Nietzsche who I admire greatly by the way,

He says, "God is dead.". It's like, okay. But Nietzsche said, God is dead and we have killed him. and we'll not find enough water to wash away all the blood.". So that was Nietzsche. He's no fool. - He's got away with words. - He certainly does. And so then you think, okay, well we killed the transcendent. Well, what does that mean for science? Well, it frees it up because all that nonsense. about a deity is just the idiot superstition.

that stops the scientific, what process from moving forward. That's basically the new atheist claim. Something like that. It's like, wait a second. Do you believe in the transcendent if you're a scientist? And the answer is, well, not only do you believe in it, you believe in it more than anything else, because if you're a scientist, you believe in what objects to your theory, more than you believe in your theory. Now we gotta think that through very carefully.

So your theory describes the world. and as far as you're concerned, you description of the world is the world. But because you're a scientist, you think, well, even though that's my description of the world. and that's what I believe, there's something beyond what I believe, and that's the object. And so I'm gonna throw my theory against the object. and see where it'll break. And then I'm going to use the evidence of the break. as a source of new information to revitalize my theory. So as a scientist, you have to posit the existence.

of the ontological transcendent. before you can move forward at all. But more, you have to posit that contact. with the ontological transcendent. Annoying though it is because it upsets your apple cart. is exactly what will in fact set you free. so then you accept the proposition. that there is a transcendent reality. and that contact with that transcend reality. is redemptive in the most fundamental sense,

because if it wasn't, well, why would you bother. making contact with it? You're gonna make everything worse or better? - Why does the contact with a transcendent. set you free as a scientist? - Because you assume, I mean, freedom in the most fundamental sense, it's like, well, freedom from want, freedom from disease, freedom from ignorance, right? That it informs you. The logos in it. - So it's the why of science? - It is definitely that. Yeah, it's the direction, let's say,

the directionality of science. That's a narrative direction, not a scientific direction. And then the question is what is the narrative? Well, it posits at transcendent reality. It posits that the transcendent reality is corrective. It posits that our knowledge structure. should be regarded with humility. It posits that you should bow down in the face. of the transcendent evidence. And you have to take a vow. You know this as a scientist, you have to take a vow to follow that path. if you're gonna be a real scientist. It's like the truth, no matter what.

And that means you posit the truth as a redemptive force. Well, what does redemptive mean? Well, why bother with science? Well, so people don't starve, so people can move about more effectively, so life can be more abundant, right? So it's all ensconced within an underlying ethic. So the reason I was saying that. while we were talking about belief in God, it's like this is a very complicated topic, right? Do you believe in a transcendent reality? See, okay, now let's say you buy the argument. I just made on the natural front,

and you say, "Yeah, yeah, that's just nature. That's not God.". And then I'd say, "Well, what makes you think. you know what nature is?". Like, see, the problem with that argument is that. it already presumes a materialist, a reductionist, materialist objective view of what constitutes nature. But if you're a scientist, you're gonna think, well, in the final analysis, I don't know what nature is. I certainly don't know its origin or destination point. I don't know its teleology.

I'm really ignorant about nature. And so when I say it's nothing but nature, I shouldn't mean it's nothing. but what I understand nature to be. So I could say, will we have a fully reductionist account. of cognitive processes? And the answer to that is yes but by the time we do that, our understanding of matter will have transformed so much. that what we think of as reduction now. won't look anything like what we think of reductionism now. Matter isn't dead dust.

I don't know what it is. I have no idea what it is. Matter is what matters. There's a definition. That's a very weird definition, but the notion that we have. that if you're a reductionist, a materialist reductionist, that you can reduce the complexity of what is. to your assumptions about the nature of matter, that's not a scientific proposition. - Your specific limited human assumptions. of this century of this week. - You bet. - So in some sense,

without God in this complicated, big definition we're talking about, there's no humility. Or- - There's not enough. - There's less likely to be, or rather science can err in taking a trajectory. away from humility. - Well-. - Without something much more powerful. than individual human. - Yeah, well then, and we know the Frankenstein story. comes out of that instantly.

And that's a good story for the current times. It's like you're playing around with making new life. You bloody well better make sure. you have your arrows pointed up. - And it's interesting because you said science has. an ethic to it I think. - It's embedded in an ethic. - Well, there's a, you know, science is a big word. - Yeah. - And it includes a lot. of disciplines that have different traditions. So biology, chemistry,

genetics, physics, those are very different communities. And I think biology, especially when you get closer and closer to medicine. and to the human body, does have a very serious, first of all, it has a history with Nazi Germany of being abused. and all those kinds of things. But it has a history of taking this stuff seriously. What doesn't have a history of taking this stuff seriously. is robotics and artificial intelligence, which is really interesting because you don't, you know, you called me a scientist,

and I would like to wear that label proudly, but often people don't think of computer science. as a science, but nevertheless it will be. I think one of the major scientific fields. of the 21st century. and you should take that very seriously. Oftentimes when people build robots or AI systems, they think of them as. toys to tinker with. Oh, isn't this cool? - Mm-hmm. Well that-. - And I feel this too.

Isn't this cool? - It is cool. - But at a certain moment you might, isn't this nuclear explosion cool? - Yeah. - Because it is. - Or birth control pill cool. It's like, or transistor cool. Yeah. Well, the other thing too, and this is a weird problem in some sense, robotics engineer types, they're thing people, right? I mean, the big classes of interest. are interest in things versus interest in people. - [Lex] Some of my best friends are thing people.

- Yeah. Right. And thing, people are very, very clear logical thinkers. and they're very outcome oriented and practical. And that's all good. That makes the machinery and keeps it functioning, but there's a human side of the equation. And you get the extreme thing people and you think, yeah, well, what about the human here? And when we're talking about, we've been talking about the necessity. of having a technological enterprise embedded in an ethic,

and you can ignore that like most of the time, right? You can ignore the overall ethic in some sense. when you're toying around with your toys. But when you're building an artificial intelligence, it's like, well, that's not a toy. That might be-. - [Lex] A toy becomes the monster very quickly. - Yeah, yeah. Yes, yes. And this is a whole new kind of monster. And maybe it's already here.

Yes and you notice how many of those things. you can no longer turn off. And what is it with you engineers and your inability. to put off switches on things now? It's like I have to hold this for five seconds. for it to shut off, or I can't figure, I just want to shut it off. Click off. - Well, what is it with you humans. that don't put off switches in other humans, because there's a magic to the thing that you notice. and it hurts for both you and perhaps one day.

the thing itself to turn it off. - Mm-hmm. - And so you have to be. very careful as an engineer adding off switches to things. I think it's a feature, not a bug, the off switch. The off switch gives a deadline to us humans, to systems of existence. It makes you, it's, you know, death is the thing. that really brings clarity to life. And I do think- - Yes, hence the flaming swords. - The flaming sword. I do like your view of the flame with the bush.

and perhaps the sword as a thing of transformation. It's also a transformation that kind of consumes. the thing in the process. - Well, it depends on how much of the thing is chaff. This is why you can't touch the arc of the covenant, for example. And this is why people can have very bad psychedelic trips. It's like if you're 95% dead wood. and you get too close to the flame. - Yeah. - The 5% that's left. might not be able to make it.

- So you think it's all chaff, but I think there is some aspect of destruction. that is. the Bukowski line of, "Do what you love and let it kill you.". - Right. - Don't you think. that destruction is part of- - That's humility. - That's humility. That's- - You bet. You bet. You bet. It's like invite in the judgment. Invite in the judgment, because maybe you can die a little bit. instead of dying completely. - Yeah. - And I think it's Alfred North Whitehead.

"We can let our ideas die instead of us.". Right? We can have these partial personalities that we can burn off. and we can let them go before they become. tyrannical pharaohs and we lose everything. And so, yeah, there's this optimal bite of death. And who knows what it would mean to optimize that? Like what if it was possible that if you died enough. all the time that you could continue to live? And the thing is, we already know that biologically, because if you don't die properly all the time,

well, it's cancerous outgrowths. Like it's a very fine balance between productivity. on the biological front and the culling of that, right? Life is a real balance between growth and death. And so what would happen if you got that balance right? Well, we kind of know, right? Because if you live your life properly, so to speak, and you're humble enough to let your stupidity die. before it takes you out, you will live longer.

That's just a fact. Well, but then what's the ultimate extension of that? And the answer is we don't know. We have no idea. - Well, let me ask you a difficult question, because-. - As opposed to the easy ones. that you've been asking so far. - Well, Dostoevsky's always just a warm up. So if death every single day is the way. to progress through life, you have become quite famous. - Death and hell.

- Death and hell. - Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause you don't wanna forget the hell part. - Do you worry that your fame. traps you into the person that you were before? - Yeah, well, even Elvis became an Elvis impersonator. by the time he died. - Yeah. Do you fear that you have become. a Jordan Peterson impersonator? Do you fear of, in some part becoming the famous. suit wearing brilliant Jordan Peter, the certainty in the pursuit of truth, always right.

- I think I worry about it more than anything else. I hope. I hope I do. I better. - Has fame to some degree, when you look at yourself in the mirror, in the quiet of your mind, has it corrupted you? - No doubt. In some regard. I mean, it's a very difficult thing to avoid, you know, because things change around you. People are much more likely to do what you ask for example.

Right? And so that's a danger because one of the things. that keeps you dying properly is that. people push back against you optimally. This is why so many celebrities spiral out of control, especially the tyrannical types that say, run countries. Everyone around them stops saying, "Yeah, you're deviating a little bit there.". They laugh at all their jokes. They open all their doors. They always want something from them. The red carpet's always rolled out. It's like, well, you think wouldn't that be lovely?

Well, not if the red carpet is rolled out to you. while you're on your way to perdition. That's not a good deal. You just get there more efficiently. And so one of the things that I've tried to learn to manage. is to have people around me all the time. who are critics, who are saying, "Yeah, you could have done that better. and you're a little too harsh there. and you're alienating people unnecessarily there. and you should have done some more background work there.". And I think the responsibility attendant upon that.

increases as your influence increases. And as you're influence increases, then that becomes a lot of responsibility. So, you know, and then maybe have an off day. and well, here's an example. I've been writing some columns lately. about things that perturbed me. like the forthcoming famine, for example. And it's hard to take those problems on.

It's difficult to take those problems on. in a serious manner and it's frightening. And it would be easier just to go up to the cottage. with my wife and go out on the lake and watch the sunset. And so I'm tempted to draw on. anger as a motivating energy to help me overcome. the resistance to doing this. But then that makes me more harsh. and judgemental in my tone. when I'm reading such things for example on YouTube. then might be optimal.

Now, I've had debates with people about that. 'cause I have friends who say, "No, if you're calling out the environmentalist globalists. who are harassing the Dutch farmers, then a little anger is just the ticket.". But then others say, "Well, you know, you don't want to be too harsh because you alienate people. who would otherwise listen to you.". It's like that's a hard balance to get right. - But also maybe anger hardens your mind. to where you don't notice the subtle,

quiet beauty of the world. The quiet love that's always there. that permeates everything. Sometimes you can become deeply cynical about the world, it's the Nietzsche thing. - Yeah. - "Battle not with monsters, les you become a monster.". - Yeah. - And if you gaze. into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.". - Right. But I would say bring it on. (lex laughing). Right? 'Cause also knowing that he's absolutely right,

but if you gaze into the abyss long enough, you see the light, not the darkness. - Are you sure about that? - I'm betting my life on it. - Yeah, that's a heck of a bet, because it might distort your mind. to where all you see- - Is abyss. - Is abyss. - Yeah. - Is the evil in this world-. - Well then I would say you haven't looked long enough. You know, that's back to the- - You're just the-. - The swords, the flaming swords. It's like, so I said,

the whole story of Christ was prefigured in that image. It's like the story of Christ psychologically. is radical acceptance of the worst possible tragedy. That's what it means. That's what the crucifix means. Psychologically, it's like gaze upon that. which you are most afraid of. But that story doesn't end there. 'cause in the story, Christ goes through death into hell. So death isn't enough. The of innocent death is not sufficient. to produce redemption.

It has to be a voluntary journey to hell. And maybe that's true for everyone. And that's like, there is no more terrifying idea. than that by definition. And so then, well, do you gaze upon that? Well. Who knows? Who knows? - How often do you gaze upon death, your own? How often do you remember, remind yourself. that this ride ends? - Personally? - Personally. - All the time.

- 'Cause you as a deep thinker and philosopher, it's easy to start philosophizing. and forgetting that you might die today. - The angel of death sits on every word. How's that? - [Lex] How often do you actually consciously-. - All the time. - Notice the angel. - All the time. I think it's one of the things that made me peculiar. When I was in graduate school,

I had the thought of death in my mind all the time. And I noticed that many of the people that I was with, these were people I admired fine. That wasn't part of their character, but it was definitely part of mine. I'd wake up every morning. This happened for years I think. Time short, get at it. Time short, get at it. There's things to do. And so that was always, it's still there, and it's still there I would say, and it's unbearable in some sense.

- Are you afraid of it? Like what's your relationship- - Afraid of death? - Yeah. - You know, I was ready to die a year ago. And not casually. I had people I loved, you know? So no, I'm not very worried about me, but I am very worried about making a mistake. - Yeah. - I heard Elon Musk talk about that a couple of months ago, it was really a striking moment. Someone asked him about death and he said just offhand.

and then went on with the conversation. He said, "That'd be a relief.". And then he went on with the conversation. And I thought, well, you know, he's got a lot of weight on his shoulders. I'm sure that part of him thinks. it'd be easier if this wasn't here at all. Now he said it offhand, but it was a telling moment in my estimation. - So for him, that's a why live question? - Hmm. - The exhaustion of life. - Yeah. - If you call it, life is suffering, but the hardship.

- I'm more afraid of hell than death. - [Lex] You're afraid of the thing that follows? - I don't know if it follows or if it's always here. And I think we're gonna find out. - [Lex] What's the connection between death and hell? - I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. - [Lex] Is there something that needs to be done. before you arrive? - You're more likely to die terribly.

if you live in a manner that brings you to hell, that's one connection. - [Lex] And terribly is a very deep kind of concept? Okay. - Yeah. Yeah. (Lex sighing). And that's a definition by the way. - What do you make of Elon Musk? You've spoken about him a bit. You met him. - I was struck with admiration. That's what I make of it and I always think-. - [Lex] Now we'll go back to this idea of admiration. - I was think of that as a primary. Well, it's like do you find this comedian funny?

It's like, well, I laugh at him. You know what I mean? It's not propositional again. And so there are things I would like to ask Mr. Musk about. The Mars venture. I don't know what he's up to there. It strikes me as absurd in the most fundamental sense, 'cause I think, well, it'd be easier just to build. an outpost in the Antarctica or in the desert. - Well, how much of the human endeavor is absurd? - Well. What did Nietzsche say? "Great men are seldom credited with their stupidity.". Who the hell knows what Musk is up to.

I mean, obviously he's building rockets. Now he's motivated because he wants to build. a platform for life on Mars. Is that a good idea? Who am I to say? He's building the rockets, man, but I'd like to ask him about it. - I would like to see that conversation. I do think that having talked to him quite a bit offline, I think these, several of his ideas like Mars, like humans becoming a multi-planetary species.

could be one of the things that human civilization. looks back at as duh, I can't believe he's one of the few people. that was really pushing this idea. 'cause it's the obvious thing. for society, for life to survive. - Yeah, well it isn't obvious to me. that I'm in any position to evaluate Elon Musk. Like I would like to talk to him. and find out what he's up to and why, but I mean, he's an impossible person. What he's done is impossible. All of it.

It's like he built an electric car that works. Now, does it work completely. and will it replace gas cars or should it? I don't know, but if we're gonna build electric cars, he seems to be the best at that by a lot. And he more or less did that, people carp about him, but he more or less did that by himself. I know he's very good at distributing responsibility. and all of that, but he's the spearhead. And then that was pretty hard. And then he built a rocket. At like 1/10 the price of NASA rockets.

And then he shot his car out into space. That's pretty hard. And then he's building this Boring Company. more or less as a, what would you call it? It's sort of, it's this whimsical joke in some sense, but it's not a joke. He's amazing. - And Neuralink, delving into the depths of the mind. - Yeah, and Starlink, it's like go Elon. as far as I'm concerned. And then, you know, he puts his finger on things. So oddly, the problem is under population.

It's like I think so too. I think it's a terrible problem that we're. the West, for example, is no longer at replacement with regard to birth rate. It means we've abandoned the virgin and the child. in a most fundamental sense. It's a bloody catastrophe. And Musk, he sees it clear as can be. It's like, wow. And where everyone else is running around going, "Oh, there's too many people!". It's like nope. Got that. See, I've learned that there are falsehoods and lies.

and there are anti truths. And an anti truth is something that's so preposterous. that you couldn't make a claim. that's more opposite to the truth. And the claim that there are too many people on the planet. is an anti truth. So, you know, people say,". Well, you have to accept limits to growth" and etcetera, it's like. I have to accept the limits. that you're going to impose on me. 'cause you're frightened of the future?

That's your theory, is it? Okay. - Well, it's an idea. It could be a right idea. It could be a wrong idea. I don't, I think anti truth... - Well, here, I'll tell you why it's the wrong idea. I think. So imagine that there's an emergency dragon. There's a dragon. And someone comes and says, "There's a dragon! I'm the guy to deal with it.". That's what the environmentalists say, the radical types who push limits to growth. Then I look at them and I think, okay,

is that dragon real or not? That's one question. Well- - I ask that question. on myself every time when I spend time alone. - Is the apocalypse looming on the environmental front? Yes or no. I'll just leave that aside for the time being. I think you can make a case both ways. for a bunch of different reasons. and it's not a trivial concern. And we've over fished the oceans terribly. And there are environmental issues that are looming large, whether climate change is the cardinal one or not.

is a whole different question, but we won't get into that. That's not the issue. You're clamoring about a dragon. Okay. Why should I listen to you? Well, let's see how you're reacting to the dragon. First of all, you're scared stiff. and in the state of panic. That might indicate you're not the man for the job. Second, you're willing to use compulsion. to harness other people to fight the dragon for you. So now not only are you terrified,

you're a terrified tyrant. So then I would say, well then you're not the Moses that we need. to lead us outta this particular Exodus. And maybe that's a neurological explanation. It's like, if you're so afraid of what you're facing. that you're terrified into paralysis and nihilism, and that you're willing to use tyrannical compulsion. to get your way, you are not the right leader for the time. So then I like someone like Bjorn Lomborg or Matt Ridley. or Marion Tupy. And they say, "Well, look,

we've got our environmental problems. and maybe you could make a case. that there's a malthusian element in some situations, but fundamentally the track record of the human race. is that we learn very fast and faster all the time. to do more with less. And we've got this. And I think yes. to that idea. And I think about it in a fundamental way.

It's like, I trust Lomborg. I trust Tupy. I trust Matt Ridley. They've thought about these things deeply. They're not just saying, "Oh, the environment doesn't matter.". Whatever the environment is. You know, the environment, I don't even know what that is. That's everything. The environment. I'm concerned about the environment, it's like... Which how is that different than saying, "I'm worried about everything"? How are those statements different semantically?

- Well, yeah, the environment, it could be. I'm worried about human society. A lot of these complex systems are difficult to talk about. because there's so much involved for sure. - Yeah. Everything. And then these models, 'cause people have gone after me. 'cause I don't buy the climate models. Well, I think about the climate models as extended. into the economic models because the climate model is, well, there's gonna be a certain degree of heating. let's say by 2100. It's like, okay. Some of that might be human generated.

Some of it's a consequence of warming after the Ice Age. This has happened before, but fair enough. Let's take your presumption. Although there are multiple presumptions. and any error in your model multiplies as time extends, but have it your way. Okay, now we're gonna extend the climate model. so to speak into the economic model. So I just did an analysis of a paper by Deloitte. Third biggest company in the US. 300,000 employees, major league consultants,

they just produced a report in May. I wrote an article for it in "The Telegraph,". which I'm gonna release this week on my YouTube channel. Said, well, if we get the climate problem. under control economically, 'cause that's where the models are now. being generated on the economic front. So now we have to model the environment, that's climate, and we have to model the economy, and then we have to model their joint interaction, and then we have to predict 100 years into the future. And then we have to put a dollar value on that.

And then we have to claim that we can do that, which we can't. And then this is our conclusion. We're going to go through a difficult period of privation. because if we don't accept limits to growth, there's gonna be a catastrophe 50 years. in the future or thereabout. And so to avert that catastrophe, we are going to make people poorer. Now how much poor? Well, not a lot compared to how much richer. they're going to be, but definitely,

and they say this in their own models, definitely poorer, definitely poorer than they would be. if we just left them the hell alone. And so then I think, okay, poorer, ay? Who? Well let's look at biologically. You got a hierarchy, right? Of stability and security. That's a hierarchy, or one type. You stress a hierarchy like that, a social hierarchy. So there's birds in a environment.

And an avian flu comes in. And then you look at the birds in the social hierarchy. and the low ranking birds have the worst nests. so they're most exposed to wind and rain and sun. and farthest from food supplies. and most exposed to predators. And so those birds are stressed, which is what happens to you at the bottom of a hierarchy. You're more stressed 'cause your life is more uncertain. You're more stressed, your immunological function. is compromised because of that. You're sacrificing the future for the present. An avian flu comes in and the birds die from the bottom up.

That happens in every epidemic, you die from the bottom up. Okay? So they say, when the aristocracy catches a cold, the working class dies of pneumonia. All right. So now we're gonna make people poorer. Okay. Who? Well, we know who we make poor when we make people poorer, we make those who are barely hanging on poorer. And what does that mean? It means they die.

And so what the Deloitte consultants are basically saying. is, "Well, you know, it's kind of unfortunate, but according to our models, a lot of poor people are gonna have to die. so that a lot more poor people don't die in the future.". It's like, okay, hold on a sec. Which of those two things. am I supposed to regard with certainty? The hypothetical poor people. that you're gonna hypothetically save 100 years from now, or the actual poor people. that you are actually going to kill in the next 10 years?

Well, I'm gonna cast my law with the actual poor people. that you're actually going to kill. And then I think further it's like, well, okay, the Deloitte consultants, have you actually modeled the world. or is this a big advertising shtick. designed to attract your corporate clients. with demonstration that you're so intelligent. that you can actually model the entire ecosystem. of the world, including the economic system.

and predict it 100 years forward. And isn't there a bit of a moral hazard. making a claim like that? Just a trifle, especially when... So I talked to Bjorn Lomborg and Michael Leon on last week. I accepted the UN estimates of starvation this coming year. 150 million people we'll suffer food insecurity. Food insecurity. Yeah. Food insecurity. That's the bloody buzzword. Famine. Well, Michael Yon thought 1.2 billion.

And then that it'll spiral because he said. what happens in a famine. is that the governments go nuts, crazy. The governments destabilize. And then they appropriate the food from the farmers. Then the farmers don't have any money, then they can't grow crops. And I think, yeah, that's exactly what they do. That's exactly what would happen. And so Yon told me 1.2 billion. And then Bjorn Lomborg said the same thing.

I didn't even ask him. He just made it as an offhand comment. So- - Let me ask you about. the famine of the 30s. - Yeah. - Do you think- - In the Ukraine. - In the Ukraine. - Oh yeah. Fun, fun, fun. - Similar. A lot of the things you mentioned in the last few sentences. kind of echo to that part of human history. - [Jordan] The hole in the door. No one knows about. (Lex chuckling). - Well now I've just spent four weeks in Ukraine.

- Oh yeah. - There's different parts. of the world that still, even if they don't know, they know. - Yeah. Right. - They feel history. runs in the blood. - The Dutch knew in some sense, they had a famine at the end of World War II, and part of the reason the Dutch farmers are so unbelievably. efficient and productive is that the Dutch swore. at the end of World War II that. that was not going to happen again. And then they had to scrape land out of the ocean. 'cause Holland, that's quite a country.

It shouldn't even exist. The fact that it's the world's number two exporter, you know that' it's the world's number two exporter. of agriculture products, Holland. It's like I don't think it's as big as Massachusetts. It's this little tiny place. It shouldn't even exist. And they wanna put, here's the plan. Let's put 30% of the farmers out of business. Well the broader ecosystem of agricultural production. in Holland is 6% of their GDP. Now these centralizing politicians think,

tell me if I'm stupid about this, take an industry, you knock it back by fiat by 30%. Now it runs on like a 3% profit margin. Now you're gonna kill 30% of it. How are you not gonna bring the whole thing down? The whole farming ecosystem down? How are you not gonna impoverish the transport systems? How are you not gonna demolish the grocery stores?

You can't take something like that and pare it back by fiat. by 30% and not kill it. I can't see how you can do that. I mean, look what we did with the COVID lockdowns. We broke the supply chains. Have you tried buying something lately? And wait, aren't the Chinese threatening Taiwan. at the moment? What are we gonna do without chips? So I don't know what these people are thinking. And then I think, okay, what are they thinking? Well, the Deloitte people are thinking aren't we smart.

and shouldn't we be hired by our corporate employers? It's like, okay, too bad about the poor. What are the environmentalist thinking? We love the planet. It's like, do you? We love the poor. Do you? Okay. Let's pit the planet against the poor. Who wins? The planet. Okay. You don't love the poor that much. Do you love the planet or do you hate capitalism? Let's pit those two things against each other. Oh, well it turns out we actually hate capitalism. How can we tell?

Because you're willing to break it. And you know what's gonna happen. So what's gonna happen in Sri Lanka. with these 20 million people who now have nothing to eat? Are they gonna eat all the animals? Are they gonna burn all the firewood. Their stockpiling firewood in Germany. It's like so is your environmental globalist utopia. gonna kill the poor and destroy the planet? And that's okay 'cause we'll wipe out capitalism. It's like okay. - Yeah. The dragon and the fear of the dragon drives ideologies, some of which can build a better world,

some of which can destroy that world. - Now, what do you think of that theory. about trustworthiness? If the dragon that you're facing. turns you into a terrified tyrant. You're not the man for the job. Is that a good theory? - It's an interesting theory. Let me use that theory. It's a challenge because what does terror look like? Let me table the turns. Turn the tables on you. You are.

terrified, afraid, concerned about the dragon. of something we can call communism, Marxism. - Am i terrified of it? Not terrified enough to be a tyrant. - Your theories had two components. - [Jordan] Yeah. I'm not paralyzed. - It had a dragon. - Yeah. I'm not paralyzed. and I don't want to be a tyrant. - The tyrant part I think is missing with you, but you are very concerned.

The intensity of your feeling. does not give much space, actually, at least in your public persona. for sitting quietly with the dragon. and sipping a couple of beers and thinking about this thing. The intensity of your anger, concern about certain things you're seeing in society. Is that going to drive you off the path. that ultimately takes us to better world? - That's a good question.

I mean, I'm trying to get that right. So we've kind of come to a cultural conclusion. about the Nazis. Do you get to be angry about the Nazis? Seems the answer to that is yes. - Well actually let me push back here. I also don't trust people who are angry about the Nazis. - [Jordan] Fair. I mean the actual Nazis. - Well, as you know, there's a lot of people in the world.

that use actual Nazis to mean a lot of things. - I know, I know. - One of them. is very important to Me. - Me for example. - Well, yes. - He's a Nazi, or magical super Nazi as it turns out. - I think to actually sort of steel man. all their perspectives, I think a lot of people that call you a Nazi mean it. So- - Yeah. I'm aware of that. - There's an important thing there though, because I went to the front in Ukraine. - Yeah. - And a lot of the people.

that lost their home or they're kind of, that got to interact a lot with the Russian soldiers, Ukrainian people that interacted with the Russian soldiers, they reported that the Russian soldiers. really believe they're saving the people. of Ukraine in these local villages from the Nazis. - I understand. Yeah. - So to them, it's not just that the Ukraine government has,

or Ukraine has some Nazis. It's like, it has been, the idea is that the Nazis have taken over Ukraine. and we need to free them. This is the belief. - Yeah. - So again, Nazi is still a dragon that lives. - Yeah. - And it's used by people. because it's safe to sit next to that dragon. and spread any kind of ideology you want. So I just wanna kind of say that we have agreed.

on this particular dragon, but I still don't trust anybody who uses that word. - Yeah, well, we have issues with boundaries, right? No, no. (Lex chuckles). So this is a very complicated problem. Right? So Rene Girard believed that. it was of human proclivity to demonize the scapegoat. and then drive it out of the village. And I've thought about that a lot. We need a place to put Satan, like seriously, this is a serious issue. - [Lex] Should he be inside the village or outside? - Well, maybe he should be inside you.

Right? That's the fundamental essence of the Christian doctrine. It's like Satan is best fought on the battleground. of your soul. And that's, it's right. It's right. - Can you actually put words to the kind of dragon. that you're fighting? Is it communism? - It's the spirit of Cain. Yeah. - [Lex] Can you elaborate? - Well. - What the spirit of Cain is?

- So after Adam and Eve are thrown out of paradise. for becoming self-conscious. or when they become self-conscious, they're destined to work. And the reason for that as far as I can tell. is that to become self-conscious. is to become aware of the future. It's to become aware of death. That certainly happens in the Adam and Eve story. To have the scales fall from your eyes. And then the consequence of that is. that you now have to labor.

to prevent the catastrophes of the future. That's work. Work is sacrifice. Sacrifice of the present to the future. It's delay of gratification. It's maturity. It's sacrificed to something as well. and in the spirit of something. Okay. So now Adam and Eve have two children. Cain and Abel. So those are the first two people in history. because the Garden of Eden doesn't count. And they're the first two people who are born.

rather than created so they're the first two people. And that's a hell of a story because it's a story. of fratricidal murder that degenerates into genocide, flood and tyranny. So that's fun for the opening salvo of the story let's say. And Abel and Cain both make sacrifices. And for some reason Abel sacrifices, please God, it's not exactly clear why. And Cains don't. Now there's an implication in the text.

that it's because Cain's sacrifices are second rate. God says that Abel brings the finest. to the sacrificial altar. He doesn't say that about Cain. So you could imagine that Cain is sacrificing away, but he's holding something in reserve. He's not all in, he's not bringing his best to the table. He's not offering his best to God. And so Abel thrives like mad. And everyone loves him. And he gets exactly what he needs and wants. exactly when he needs and wants it.

He's favored of God. And Cain is bearing this terrible burden forward. and working and his sacrifices are rejected. So he gets resentful, really resentful, resentful enough to call God out and say something like. this is quite the creation you've got going here. I'm breaking myself in half. and nothing good's coming my way.

What the hell's up with that? And then there's Abel, the sun's shining on him every day. How dare you? It's like, okay, but this is God that Cain's talking to you. And so God says what Cain least wants to hear, which is what God usually says to people. He says, "Look to your own devices. You're not making the sacrifices you should. And you know it.". And then he says something even worse. He says, "Sin crouches at your door,

like a sexually aroused predatory animal. And you've invited it in to have your way, to have its way with you.". And so he basically says, you have allowed your resentment to preoccupy yourself. and now you're brooding upon it. and generating something creative, new, and awful possessed by the spirit of resentment. And that's why you're in the miserable state you're in. So then Cain leaves, his countenance falls,

as you might expect, and Cain leaves. And he's so incensed by this because God has said, "Look, your problems are of your own making. And not only that you invited them in. and not only that you engaged in this creatively. and not only that you're blaming it on me. and not only that that's making you jealous of Abel. who's your actual idol and goal.". And Cain instead of changing, kills Abel. Right? And then Cain's descendants are the first people.

who make weapons of war. And so that's, okay, you wanna know what I think? That's the eternal story of mankind. And it's playing out right now, except at a thousand times the rate. - Can I present to you a difficult truth? Perhaps not a truth, but a thought I have. that it is not always easy to know. which among us are the Cain.

- That's for sure. - And resentment, it is possible to imagine you as the person. who has a resentment towards a particular worldview. that you really worry about. - Yeah, well, I talked to a good friend of mine. last week about that publicly. We'll release it. 'Cause I said, well, do I have a particular animus against the left? Let's say. It's like, well probably.

Okay. Why? Well, first of all, I'm a university professor. It's not like the universities are threatened by the right. They're threatened by the left 100%. And they're not just threatened a little bit. They're threatened a lot. And that threat made it impossible for me to continue. in my profession the way I was. And it cost me my clinical practice too. And that's not over yet because I have 10 lawsuits. against me out right now from the College of Psychologists,

because they've allowed anyone to complain about me. anywhere in the world for any reason, and have the choice to follow that up with an investigation, which is a punishment in and of itself and are doing so. And then I've been tortured nearly to death. multiple times by bad actors on the left. Now I've had my fair share of radical right wingers. being unhappy with what I've said, but personally it's been the left the whole time.

Not only me, but my family, put my family at risk in a big way. And constantly, like not once or twice, 'cause many people get canceled once or twice, but I've been canceled like 40 times. And I know like 200 people now who've been canceled. and I can tell you without doubt. that it is one of the worst experiences of their life. and that's if it only happens once. And so,

and then I also know that the communists. killed 100 million people in the 20th century, that the intellectuals excused them for it nonstop. and still haven't quit, that almost no one knows about it. And that the specter of resentful Marxism. is back in full force. And so do I have a bit of an animus against that? Yes. Does it go too far? I don't know. I'm trying to figure that out. - The story you just told it seems nearly impossible.

for you, an intellectual powerhouse, not to have a tremendous amount of resentment. - Well. - So let me challenge you. - Yeah. Go right ahead. - Let me challenge you. Can you steel man? The case that the prime minister of this country, Trudeau, wants the best for this country. and actually might do good things for this country. As an intellectual challenge.

- Sure. He seems to get along well with his wife. He has some kids. There's no sexual scandals. and he's in a position where that could easily be the case. He seems to have done some good things. on the oceanic management front. He's put a fair bit of Canada's oceans. into marine protected areas, and that might be his most fundamental legacy if it's real. I've been trying to get information about. the actual reality of the protection. And I haven't been able to do that, but that's a good thing.

- So sorry, the family thing is. there's some aspect- - Speaks to his character. - His character, there is some aspect to him. that makes him a good man. in that sense. - Well, I mean, there's the evidence there, you know? I mean he's not a Jeffrey Epstein profligate. on the sexual front, so that's something. And his wife, they seem to have a real marriage and he has kids. So good for him. - [Lex] That's a good start by the way for a leader. - Yeah. Right. - To be a good man. - Well then I also thought, okay, well, after the liberals had brought in a Harvard intellectual.

who was a Canadian to be their last leader, he didn't work out and then they're flailing a boat. for a leader and the liberals in Canada. are pretty good at maintaining. power and leadership. and have been the dominant governing party. in Canada for a long time. And so they went to Justin and said, "Well, you know, it's you or a conservative.". And you can imagine that's not a positive specter. for someone who's on the left or even a liberal.

And Trudeau is quite a bit on the left. And they said," We need you to run.". And then I thought, okay, well the answer to that should have been no. because the Trudeau, Justin has no training for this, no experience. He's not. He's a part-time drama teacher fundamentally. He hadn't run a business. He just didn't know enough to be prime minister. But then I'm trying to put myself in his position. So it's like, okay, I don't know enough, but I'm young and we don't want the conservatives.

And they had had a run, a 10 year run. so maybe it was time for new government. Maybe I could grow into this man. Maybe I could surround myself with good people. and I could learn, humbly, and I could become. the person I'm now pretending to be, which we all have to do as we move forward, right? And so then I thought, okay, I think you made a mistake there. 'cause you ran only on your father's name. and you didn't have the background, but let's give the devil his due and say that's no problem.

Okay. So now what do you do? Well, you get elected. And your first act is to make the cabinet 50% women. despite the fact that only 25%. of the elected members are female. It's like, okay, you just halved your talent pool. That was a really bad move for your first move. - Can I ask you about that? - Yeah. - Do you think, where does that move come from? Deep somewhere in the heart or is it trying to listen.

to the social forces of the moment. and try to ride those ways towards. maybe greater popularity. - You don't make a decision. like that after thinking it through. It's like, no, you just halved your talent pool. for cabinet positions. That's what you did. There's enough cabinet positions. You know, you could argue that each of them met threshold, it's like there's a big difference. between threshold and excellent. - So you don't think that came from a place of compassion?

- I don't care if it did. I don't regard compassion as a virtue. Compassion is a reflex, not a virtue. - You don't think- - Judicious compassion. is a virtue. - Wait, wait a minute, wait a minute. Compassion can come deep from the human heart. and the human mind I think. Are we talking about the same kind of compassion? - Yes. - Trying to understand. the suffering- - Treating adults like infants. is not virtuous. - I see. Well, compassion isn't treating adult like infants, I mean, those are just terms. - Are you sure? - Okay.

Whatever the term is, love is. maybe the better word. - Eatable compassion is. - I mean, I suppose I'm speaking to love. You don't think those ideas came from concern-. - Love is compassion. - You don't think love is- - Love is a blend. of compassion and encouragement and truth. Love is complicated, man. - [Lex] Yeah, it has a lot of good things in it, yeah. - If I love you, is it compassion or encouragement you want from me? - Yeah. The dance. Love is definitely a dance of two humans. ultimately that leads to the growth of both, yes.

- Well, that's the thing. The growth element is crucial. Because the growth element, to foster the growth element. that requires judgment. Compassion and judgment. have been conceptualized this way forever. Two hands of God, mercy and justice. They have to operate in tandem. Right? And mercy is. flawed as you are, you're acceptable. It's like, well, do you want that? Do you want your flaws to be acceptable?

And the answer that is no. So it's like, well, that's where the judgment comes in. It's like, but you could be better. You could be more than you are. And that's the maternal and the paternal. in some fundamental sense. And there has to be a active. exchange of information between those two polls. So even if Trudeau was motivated by compassion. and it's like, yeah, just how loving are you? First of all. No, it was a really bad decision. And he's expressed contempt for monetary policy.

I'm not interested in monetary policy. It's like, okay, but you're a prime minister. And he's expressed admiration. for the Chinese Communist Party. because they can be very efficient. in their pursuit of environmental goals. It's like, oh yeah, efficiency, ay? The efficiency of the tyranny in the service of your terror. And I've watched him repeatedly. and I've listened to him a lot.

and I've tried to do that clinically. and with some degree of dispassion. And that's hard too because his father Pierre. devastated the West in 1982 with the national energy policy. And Trudeau is doing exactly the same thing again. And so as a Westerner as well, I have an inbuilt animus and one that's well deserved. because central Canada, especially the glittery literary. elite types in the Ottawa, Montreal, Toronto triangle.

have exploited the West and expressed contempt for the West. far too much for far too long. And that's accelerating at the moment, for example, with Trudeau's recent attack on the Canadian farmers. He's an enemy of the oil and gas industry, which is an utter and absolute bloody catastrophe. And look what's happened in Europe, at least in partial consequence. And he's no friend to the farmers.

So I've tried to steel man him. You know? I try to put myself in the position of the people. that I'm criticizing. I think he's a narcissist. - Do you think there's a degree to which power changed him? - If you're not suited for the position, if you're not the man for the position, you can be absolutely 100% sure. that the power will corrupt you. How could it not? I mean, at the least, if you don't have the chops for the job, you have to devalue the job to the point.

where you can feel comfortable inhabiting it. So yes, I think that it's corrupted him. and I mean, look at him, doubling down. We wear masks in flights into Canada. We have to fill out an ArriveCAN bureaucratic form. on our phones because a passport isn't good enough. We can't get a passport. What if you're 85. and you don't know how to use a smartphone? Oh, well. Too bad for you. - Yeah. - It's like, yes, it's corrupted him.

- Would you talk to him? If you were to sit down and talk with him. and he wanted to talk, would you, and what kind of things would you about. perhaps on your podcast? - I don't think I've ever said no to talking to anyone. So which is, you know-. (Lex chuckles). - Would that be a first or would you make that conversation? Do you believe in the power of conversation-. - No. I'd ask him. - In those kinds of context? - No, if he was willing to talk to me, I'd talk,

'cause I'd like to ask him, I have lots of things I'd like to ask him about. I mean, I've had political types in Canada on my podcast. and tried to ask them questions to so I'd like to know. Maybe I've got a big part of him wrong. - Yes. - And I probably do. But my observation is being that. every chance he had to retreat from his pharonic position, let's say, he doubled down. And our parliament is not running for the next year.

It's still Zoom in. It's still COVID lockdown parliament for the next year. It's already been fatally compromised. perhaps by the lockdowns for the last couple of years. And this is Parliament we're talking about. - Yeah, there's a kind. paralysis, fear driven paralysis that also in part, some of the most brilliant people I know. are lost in this paralysis.

I don't think people have assigned a word to it, but it's almost like a fear of this unknown thing. that lurks in the shadows. And unfortunately, that fear is leveraged. by people that. who are in academic circles, who are in faculty or students and so on. and more administration and they start to use that fear, which makes me quite uncomfortable. It does lend people in the positions of power. who are not good at handling that power.

to become slowly, day by day, a little bit more corrupt. - I was really trying to figure out, you know, the last two weeks thinking this through, it's like how do you know? Let's say someone asked me a question. in the YouTube comment, he said, "Well, why can I trust your advice on the environmental front?". And I thought that's a really good question. Okay. Let's see if we can figure out the principles. by which the advice would be trustworthy.

Okay. How do you know it's not trustworthy? Well, one potential response to that. would be the claims are not in accordance with the facts, but facts are tricky things. and it depends on where you look for them. So that's a tough one to get right, because for example, Lomborg's fundamental critics argue. about his facts, not just his interpretation of them. So that can't be an unerring guide. And so I thought, well, the facts exactly doesn't work.

'cause when it's about everything, there's too many facts. So then how do you determine if someone's. a trustworthy guide in the face of the apocalyptic unknown? 'Cause that's really the question. And the answer is they're not terrified tyrants. I think that's the answer. Now maybe that's wrong. If someone has a better answer, hey. - [Lex] How do you know if they're terrified tyrant? - Because they are willing to use compulsion. on other people when they could use goodwill. Like the farmers in Canada objected, they said, "Look,

we have every economic reason. to use as little fertilizer as we can. 'cause it's expensive. We have satellite maps of where we put the fertilizer. We have cut our fertilizer use. so substantially in the last 40 years you can't believe it. And we grow way more food. We're already breaking ourselves in half. And if you know farmers, especially the ones who still survive, you think those people don't know what they're doing.

It's like they're pretty damn sophisticated, man. Like way more sophisticated than our prime minister. And now you tell them, no, it's a 30% reduction. and we don't care how much food you're growing. So it's not a reduction that's dependent. on amount of food produced per unit of fertilizer used, which would be, at least you could imagine it. Okay, so you're producing this much food. and use this much fertilizer so you're hyper efficient.

Maybe we take the 10% of farmers who are the least efficient. in that metric and we say to them, you have to get as efficient as the average farmer. And then they say, "Well look, our situation's different. We're in a more Northern climb. The soil's weaker.". You obviously have to bargain with that, but at least you reward them for their productivity. Well it's like, well, Holland isn't gonna have beef. Well where are they gonna get it? Well, you don't need it. It's like, oh I see.

You get to tell me what I can eat now, do you? Really? Okay. And Holland is gonna import food from where. that's more efficient on the fertilizer front? There's no one more efficient than Holland. And same with Canada. And like isn't this gonna make food prices more expensive? And doesn't that mean that hungry people die? 'Cause that is what it means. - Ultimately poor people pay the price. of these kinds of policies.

- Not known, not ultimately. Now. - Today. - Today, that's a crucial distinction because they say. well, ultimately the poor will benefit. Yeah. Except the dead ones. - Yes. Today. - Today. Right? - It seems like the story of war too. is a time when the poor people suffer. from the decision made by the powerful, the rich, the political elite. - Yeah, 'cause they can just leave. - Yeah.

Let me ask you about the war in Ukraine. - Oh yeah. I got into plenty of trouble about that too. - You're just a man in a suit. talking on microphones and writing brilliant articles. There's also people dying, fighting. It's their land. It's their country. It's their history. This is true for both Russia and Ukraine. - Yep. - It's people trying to ask, they have many dragons and they're asking themselves.

a question, who are we? - That's for sure. - What is this? What is the future of this nation? We thought we are a great nation. And I think both countries say this and they say, well, how do we become the great nation we thought we are? - Yeah. - And so what, first of all, you got in trouble. What the dynamics of the trouble? And is something you regret saying?

- No. No, no. I thought about it a lot. I laid out four reasons for the war. And then I was criticized in "The Atlantic,". the argument was reduced to one reason, which was a caricature of the reason. I gave a variety of reasons why the war happened, mismanagement on the part of the West. in relationship to Russia and foreign policy. since the wall fell. It's understandable 'cause it's extremely complex.

Hyper reliance on Russia. as a Cardinal source of energy provision for Europe. in the wake of idiot environmental globalist utopianism, the expansionist tendencies of Russia. that are analogous in some sense. to the Soviet Union Empire building. And then the last one, which is the one I got in trouble for, which is Putin's belief. or willingness to manipulate his people.

into believing that Russia is a salvific force. in the face of idiot Western wokeism. And that's the one I got in trouble for. It's like, "Well, you're justifying Putin,". it's like... It's not only the Russians that think. the West has lost its mind. The Eastern Europeans think so too. And do I know that? It's like, well, I went to 15 Eastern European countries this spring. and I talked to 300 political and cultural leaders.

And you might say, "Well, they were all conservatives. It's just like actually no they weren't. Most of them were conservatives. 'cause it turns out that they're more willing to talk to me, but a good chunk of them were liberals. by any stretch of the imagination. and a fair number of them were canceled progressives. - Well, because you're very concerned about the culture wars. that perhaps are a signal. of a possible bad future.

for this country and for this part of the world, that reason stands out. And. do you sort of looking back at four reasons. think it deserves to have a place in one of the four? - Oh absolutely. - Because it is, you know-. - Well the four was bifurcated, eh, because I said, "Look, Putin might believe this.". And I actually think he does. 'cause I read a bunch of Putin speeches. and I have been reading them for 15 years. and my sense of people generally,

and this was true of Hitler, it's like, well, what did Hitler believe? Well, did you read what he wrote? He just did what he said he was going to do. And you might think, well, some people are so tricky. they have a whole body of elaborated speech. that's completely separate from their personality, and their personality is pursuing a different agenda. and this whole body of speech is nothing but affront. - Yeah. - It's like good luck. finding someone that sophisticated,

first of all, if you say things long enough, you're gonna believe them. - That's a really interesting and fascinating. and important point. Even if you start out as a lie, as a propaganda, I think Hitler is an example of somebody. that I think really quickly. you start to believe the propaganda. - Well- - It's really interesting. You've thought a lot about AI systems. It's like don't you become what you practice? And the answer to that is, well, absolutely. We even know the neurology. It's like when you first formulate a concept, huge swaths of your cortex are lit up so to speak.

But as you practice that, first of all, the right hemisphere stops participating. And then the left participates less and less. until you build specialized machinery. for exactly that conceptual frame. And then you start to see it, not just think it. And so if you're telling the same lies over and over, who do you think you're fooling? Think, well, I can withstand my own lies. Not if they're effective lies. And if they're effective enough to fool millions of people.

and then they reflect them back to you, what makes you think you're going to be able. to withstand that? You aren't. And so I do think Putin believes. to the degree that he believes anything. I do believe that he thinks of himself as a ballwork. for Christendom against the degeneration of the West. And that's that third way that Dugin and Putin. have been talking about, the philosopher Alexander Dugin and Putin for 15 years.

Now, what that is is very amorphous. Solzhenitsyn thought the Russians would have to return. to the incremental development of Orthodox Christianity. to escape from the communist trap. And to some degree that's happened in Russia, 'cause there's been a return to Orthodox Christianity. Now you could say, yeah, but the Orthodox church. has just been co-opted by the state. And I would say there's some evidence for that. I've heard for example, that the metropolitan owns,

now, I don't know if this is true, owns $5 billion worth of personal property. And I would say there's a bit of a moral hazard in that. and it's possible that the Orthodox church. has been co-opted, but there has been somewhat. of an Orthodox revival in Russia. and I don't think that's all bad. Now, even if Putin doesn't believe any of this, if he's just a manipulator, and unfortunately I don't think that's true. I've read his speeches. It doesn't look like it to me.

And he is by no means the worst Russian leader. of the last 100 years. - [Lex] Well, there's quite a selection there. - There certainly is, but, and I say that knowing that. Even if he doesn't believe it, he's convinced his people that it's true. And so we're stuck with the claim in either case. And that's the point I was trying to make in the article. - Sometimes I'm troubled by people that explain things.

and a lot of people have reached out to me, experts telling me how I should feel, what I should think about Ukraine. Oh, you naive, Lex, you're so naive. You know, here's how it really is. But then I get to see people that lost their home. I get to see people on the Russian side who believe they're, I genuinely think that there's some degree.

to which they have love in their heart, they see themselves as heroes saving a land from Nazis. - How else would you motivate young men to go fight? - It's just it's these humans destroying. not only their homes, but creating generational hate. destroying the possibility of love towards each other. They're basically creating hate. What I've heard a lot of is on February 24th of this year, hate was born at a scale that region has not seen.

Hate towards not Vladimir Putin, hate towards not the soldiers in Russia, but hates towards all Russians. Hate that will last generations. And then you could see. just the pain there. And then when all these experts talk about.

agriculture and energy and geopolitics and yeah, maybe like what you say with the fighting the ideologies. of the woke and so on, I just feel like it's missing something deep. That war is not fought. about any of those things. War is started and war is averted. based on human beings based on humanity. - Well here's another ugly thought.

since we haven't had enough so far. We locked everything down for COVID. How much face to face communication was there. between the West and Vladimir Putin? How about none? - Yeah. - How about that was the wrong amount? Especially given that Europe was completely dependent. on Putin for its energy supplies. Well, not completely, but you know what I mean, materially insignificantly. So maybe had to go talk to him once every six months. Maybe he's in a bit of a bubble.

Probably. - And not just an information bubble. how all these experts tell me about. - Yeah, no, a human bubble. - Human bubble. You bet, man. Look, one of the things I've really learned, there's a real emphasis on hospitality in the Old Testament. I just brought all these scholars together. to talk about Exodus. I have this security team with me. and they're tough military guys, but they're on board for this mission, let's say. And so they went outta their way. to be hospitable to my academic guests.

They laid out nice platters of meat and cheese and crackers. They spent all day preparing this house I had rented. so that we could have a hospitable time with these scholars. Most of whom I didn't know well, but who said they would come and spend eight days. talking about this book with me. We rented some jet skis. We had a nice house. We had fun and we got to know each other. and we got to trust each other. because we could see that we could have some fun. and that we could let our hair down a bit. We didn't have to be on guard. And that made the talks way deeper.

And then we found out we couldn't get through Exodus. in eight days and so I had proposed very early on. that we're gonna double the length. And so I pulled eight people out of their lives. for eight days. That's not an easy thing to do. It's also quite expensive. and the DailyWire+ people picked all that up. and they said yes right away. Said, "We'd love to do this again.". Well, why? Well, partly because it was, intellectually it was unbelievably engaging. I learned so much. It'll take me like a year to digest it.

if I can ever digest it. But they had a really good time. And so when they were offered that combination. of intellectual challenge, let's say in hospitality, it was a no brainer. They just said, every one of them said, if I can do it in any way, I will definitely be there. And I went to Washington a bunch of times. and the culture of hospitality. has broken down in Washington. 40% of congressmen sleep in their offices.

They don't have apartments. Their family isn't there with them. They don't have social occasions. with their fellow Democrats or Republicans, much less across the table. And I tried to have some meetings in Washington. that were bilateral a couple of times, get young Republican congressmen. and Democrats together to talk. And as soon as they talk, they think, oh... It was so interesting. 'cause one of the lunches was about 15 people, half Democrats and half Republicans.

And all I'd asked them to do was just spend three minutes. talking about why you decided to become a Congressman, which is not a job I would take by the way. You spend 25 hours a week fundraising on the telephone. Your family isn't there with you. You have to run for reelection every two years. You're beholden to the party apparatus, right? You're vilified constantly. This is not, you know, people think, well this is a job for the privileged. It's like, yeah, you go and run for Congress. and find out how much fun it is.

and put your family on the line. and then have to beg for your job every two years. while your enemies, the worst of your enemies. and the worst of your friends are viciously henpecking you. And so anyways, we had them all sit around a table, and said, okay, just say why you ran for Congress. It was so cool, especially for a Canadian. 'cause you Americans you're so bloody theatrical. It's something to watch. It was like "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington". for every one of them. It's like, well, this country's given us so much.

We've benefited so much from our time here, we think this is a wonderful country. We really felt that we should give back. Then the next one would talk. and it was like exactly the same story. And then it didn't matter. if they were a Republican or Democrat. You couldn't tell the difference. No one could. And was it genuine? It's like, well, are you genuine? You think these people are worse than you? First of all, they're not. Second of all. They're probably better. All things considered. It's not that easy to become a Congressman.

And I'm sure there's some bad apples in the bunch, but by and large, you walk away from your meetings with these people. and you think. pretty impressive. - They really are giving a part of themselves. in the name of service. Maybe over time they become cynical. and become jaded and worn down by the whole system. But I think a lot of it- - Would you imagine that. - Is healed, I think. And I don't think I'm, well, I'm in part naive,

but not fully, that a lot of it is healed. through the power of conversation. Just basic social interaction. I do think that the- - You bet, man. - The effects of this pandemic-. - Especially by listening. - Listening, just sitting there and it doesn't have to be. talking about the actual issue, it's actually humor. and all those kinds of things about personal struggles, all those kinds of things that remind you. that you're all just humans. - Yeah, well the great leaders that I've met,

and I've met some now, they go listen to their constituents. It's not a policy discussion. It's not an ideology discussion. They go say, okay, what's your life like? And what are your problems? And tell me about them. And then they listen and then they're struck by them. And then they gather up all that misery. and they bring it to the congressional officer. to the parliament and they think. here's what the people are crying out for. And the good leaders, that's a leader, leader listens.

It's like I talked to Jimmy Carr about comedy. And he's sold out stages worldwide on a tour being funny. That's hard. He said comedy is the most, standup comedy, which is what I do in some real sense. It's a thing I do that it's the most akin. to what I'm doing on my book tours I would say. It's the closest analog. He said, "It's the most dialogical enterprise.". And I thought, well, why, what do you mean?

Cause see, it's just a monologue. And it's a prepared monologue. I mean, you have to interact dynamically with the audience. while you're telling your jokes. and you gotta get the timing right, but you have a body of jokes. He said, "Well, here's how you prepare the jokes.". And I've been told this by other comedians. "You go to 50 clubs before you go on your tour. and you go some new material and you think it's funny, and you go into a club and you lay out your new material. and people laugh at some of it.

And you pay attention to what they laugh at. and what they don't laugh at. So you subject yourself to the judgment of the crowd. and you get rid of everything that isn't funny. And if you do that enough, even if you're not that funny, the crowd will tell you what's funny. So you can imagine, imagine you do 50 shows. and each is an hour long. and you collect two minutes of humor from each show. So you throw away 90, you throw away two hours, more than 98% of it.

Collect two minutes per show. So you're not very funny at all. You're like funny 2% of the time. You aggregate that, man, you're a scream. And so that's what a leader does is, that is what a leader does is goes out. and he aggregates the misery, you know? And the hopes. And then I do think that's revivifying. to someone who would otherwise be cynical and jaded. because then the person can say to themselves, despite the inadequacies of the system and my inadequacies, I'm gathering up the misery and the hope.

and I'm bringing it forward where it can be redressed. - Giving it a voice. - Yep. That's right. Giving it a voice. - Can you actually take me through a day. 'cause this is fascinating through your comedy tour. What does a day in the life of Jordan Peterson look like? Which is this very interesting day. Let's look at the day when you have to speak. - Mm-hmm. - Preparing your mind, thinking of what you're going to talk about.

Preparing yourself physically and mentally. to interact with the crowd through the actual speaking, how do you adjust what you're thinking through. and how do you come down from that. so you can start all again as a limited biological system? - Well, I'm usually up by 7:00. and ready to go by 7:30 or 8:00. - Coffee? - No. - Nothing. - Steak and water.

- [Lex] How many times a day, steak? - That's all I eat. - How many times? - Three or four depending on the day. - Steak and water. - Steak and sparkling water. Yeah. So monastic aestheticism, man. (Lex laughing). - Well, I did the proper, I usually just once a day, I did the proper Jordan Peterson last night. and just ate two steaks. - And how was that? - Was wonderful. - Yeah, well, if you have to only eat one thing, you know, could be worse. So anyways, I'm ready to go at 8:00. because we're generally moving.

- [Lex] What does it moving mean? You're constantly-. - Flying somewhere. - Okay. - And we usually use private flights now. because the commercial airlines aren't reliable enough. and you cannot not make a venue. Right. So that's rule number one on a tour. You make the show. - Yeah. - And then rule number two is. anybody who causes any trouble on the tour is gone. because there is zero room for error.

No, there's zero room for unnecessary unaddressed error, 'cause there's gonna be errors. The guys I have around me now, if they make a mistake, they fix it right away. And that's great. - There's a lot of people relying on you to be there. so you have to be there. - Yeah. Like 4,000 people typically. - Yeah. - So then. I'm on the plane and I usually write. or often because there's no internet on the plane.

and that's a good use of time. So I'm writing a new book. So I write on the plane. - Typing or handwriting? - Typing. - Yeah. Typing. And then we land and we go to, it's usually early afternoon by then, we go to a hotel. It's usually a nice hotel that's not corporate. I don't really like corporate hotels. My secretary and one of my logistics guys. has got quite good at picking kind of adventurous hotels, boutique hotels.

They're usually in the old parts of the city, especially in Europe, somewhere interesting. And so we go there and then lunch usually, and sometimes that's an air fryer. and a steak in the hotel room. and I leave a trail of air fryers behind me. all across the world. And then Tammy and I usually go out and have a walk. or something and take a look at the city. And then I have a rest for like an hour and a half. or an hour, half an hour. - Like a nap? - Yeah, a nap. I have to sleep for 20 minutes. and that's about all I can sleep,

but I need to do that in the late afternoon. - [Lex] And that refreshes your mind? - Yep. That wakes me up again for the evening. And then Tam has to sleep longer. She's still recovering from her illness. and so she has to sleep longer in the afternoon, and that's absolutely necessary for both of us. or things start to get frayed. And so then we go to the venue. and then I usually sit for an hour if I'm gonna lecture. I've been doing a lot of Q and As, and that's a little easier, but if I'm gonna lecture, I have to sit for an hour.

And then I think, okay, what question am I trying to investigate? I have to have that, so that's the point. What mystery am I trying to unravel? It's usually associated with one of the rules in my book. because technically it's a book tour, but each of those rules is an investigation into an ethic. and each of them points to a deeper sort of mystery. in some sense. And there's no end to the amount it can be explored. And so I have the question/.

The question might be something like. put your house in perfect order. before you criticize the world. Okay. What does that mean exactly? What does house mean? What does put mean, that active verb? What does perfect and order mean? Why before you criticize the world? What does it mean to criticize? What does it mean to criticize the world? How can you do that properly or improperly? So I start to think about how to decompose the question. - And you start to think which of these decompositions.

are important to really dig into? - Yeah, well then they'll strike me. It's like, okay, there's something there. that I've been maybe noodling around on. that I would like to investigate further. Then I think, okay, how can I approach this problem? I think, well, I have this story that I know. and I have this story and I have this story, but I haven't juxtaposed them before. And there's gonna be some interesting interaction. in the juxtaposition. So I have the question and I kind have a framework. of interpretation and then I have some potential. narrative places I can go.

And then I think, okay, I can go juggle that and see what happens. And so then what I want to do is concentrate on that process. while attending to the audience, to make sure that the words are landing. and then see if I can delve into it deeply enough. so that a narrative emerges spontaneously with an ending. Now I'm sure you've experienced this in podcasts, right? Maybe I'm wrong, but my experience is being, if I fall into the conversation. and we know about the timeframe,

there'll be a natural narrative arc. So you'll kind of know when the midpoint is, and you'll kind of see when you're reaching a conclusion. and then if you really pay attention, you can see that's a good place to stop. And it's kind of you come to a point. and you have to be alert and patient to see that. And you have to be willing to be satisfied. with where you've got to. But if you do that and then it's like a comedian. making the punchline work, it's like. I've got all these balls in the air.

and they're going somewhere. and this is how they come together. And people love that, right? To say, oh, this and this and this and this. and this whack together. And that's an insight and it is very much like a punchline. - Well, that's interesting because your mind actually, I'm fan of your podcast too, and you are always driving towards that. I would say for me in a podcast conversation, there's often a kind of "Alice in Wonderland".

type of exploration. - Mm-hmm. Down the rabbit hole of man. - And then a new thing pops up. The more absurd, the wilder the better. - Yeah. - Conversations with Elon. are like this. - Yeah. I bet. - It's like actually the more you drive towards an arc, the more uncomfortable you start to get. in a fun, absurd conversation because, oh, I'm now one of the normies. No, I don't want that. I want to be, I want the rabbit, I want the crazy, because it makes it more fun. But somehow throughout it,

there is wisdom that you try to grasp at. such that there is a thread to-. - Well, that's the thing, man. You're following the thread, eh? - Yeah. We try. - Well, that's right. That's what we're trying to do. That thread, that thread is the proper balance. between structure and spontaneity. And it manifests itself as the instinct of meaning. and that's the logos in a dialogos. and it really is the logos. and God only knows what that means. You know? I mean, the the biblical claim is.

that logos is the fundamental principle of reality. And I think that's true. I actually think that's true. 'cause I think that that meaning that guides you, well, here's a way of thinking about it. I've been writing about this recently. What's real? (locking). Matter. It's like, okay, that's one answer. What's real? What matters is real 'cause that's how you act. Okay. So that's different than matter. It's like, okay, what's the most real of what matters?

How about pain? Why is it the most real? Try arguing it away. Good luck. So pain is the fundamental reality. All right. Well that's rough. Doesn't that lead to nihilism and hopelessness? Yeah. Doesn't it lead to a philosophy that's antithetical. towards being the most fundamental reality is pain? Yes. Is there anything more fundamental than pain?

Love. Really. If you're in pain, (sobbing). love and truth. That's what you got. And you know, if they're more powerful than pain, maybe they're the most real things.

- When you think about reality, what is real? That is the most real thing. - Well, it it's a tough one, right? Because you have to, 'cause if you're a scientist, a materialist think, well, (knocking). the matter is the most real. It's like, well, you don't know what the matter is. - Yeah. - So, and then when push. comes to shove and it will, you'll find out what's most real. - Yeah. I feel like this is missing. The physical reality is missing some of the things.

So of course pain has a biological component. and all those kinds of things, but it's missing. something deep about the human condition. that at least the modern science is not able to describe, but is it is reaching towards that. - Yeah, it is. - And one way to describe it. as you're describing is the reason is reaching it. is because underneath of science. is this assumption that there's a deep-.

- [Jordan] Logos. - Thing to this whole thing we're trying to do. - Well, you know, there's two traditions, right? In some sense, there's two logos traditions. There's the Greek rational enlightenment tradition. That's a logos tradition and it insists that there's a logos. in nature and that science is the way to approach it. And then there's the Judeo-Christian logos, which is more embodied and more spiritual. And I would say the West is actually an attempt. to unite those two. And it's the proper attempt to unite those two.

because they need to be united. And I see the union coming near terms, you know? I talk to Frans de Waal, for example, about the animating principle of chimpanzee sovereignty. And that's pretty close biologically. Is it power? 'Cause that's the claim even from the biologists often. The most dominant chimp has the best reproductive success. It's like, oh yeah? Dominant, hey? You mean using compulsion? Okay. Let's look. Are the chimps who use compulsion the most successful?

And the answer is sporadically and rarely. And for short, well, that's sporadically, for short periods of time. Why? Because they meet an unpleasant end. The subordinates over whom they exercise arbitrary control. wait for a weak moment and then tear them into shreds. Right? Every dictator's terror, and for good reason.

And de Waal has showed that the alpha chimps, the males, who do have preferential mat access often, are often and reliably the best peacemakers. and the most reciprocal. And so even among chimps, the principle of sovereignty. is something like iterated reciprocity. And that's a way better principle than power. And it's something like, I've been thinking. what's the antithesis of the spirit of power?

I think it's the spirit of play. And you know, I don't know what you think about that, but when you have a good podcast conversation, you already described it in some sense as play. It's like, there's a structure, right? 'Cause it's an ordered conversation, but you want there to be play in the system. And if you get that right, then it's really engaging. And then it seems to have its own narrative arc. I'm not trying to impose that even on, that's another thing I don't do. I didn't come to this conversation at all thinking.

here's what I want out of a conversation with Lex Fridman. Like instrumentally, I thought I'll go talk to Lex. Why? I like his podcasts. He he's doing something right. I don't know what it is. He asks interesting questions. I'll go have a conversation with him. Where's it gonna go? Wherever it goes. - Embracing the spirit of play. So you have this, when you're lecturing,

you're going in front of the crowd. - Yeah. - You thought of a question. - Yeah. - You get on the stage, first of all, are you nervous at all? - I'm very nervous when I'm sitting down. thinking through the structure initially, which is why my wife and I have been doing Q and As, and that's easier on me. - Yeah. (Lex chuckling). It's the way comedians are nervous. Like Joe Rogan just did his special this weekend. And so he now has to sit nervously like a comedian does,

which is like, I have no material now. - Right. - I have to start. from scratch. - Well, that's it. When I was doing the lectures constantly. instead of the Q and As. basically what I was doing was writing. a whole book chapter every night. - Yeah. - And you know, now that's a bit of an exaggeration. 'cause I would return to themes that I had developed, but it's not really an exaggeration. because I didn't ever just go over wrote material ever.

So it's very demanding and that part's nerveracking. 'cause I sit down, it's an hour before the show and I think, can I do this? And you know, the answer is, well, you did it a thousand times, but that's not this time. - Yeah. - It's like can I. come up with a question? Can I think through the structure? Can I pull off the spontaneous narrative? Can I pull it together? And the answer is I don't know.

And so then I get it together in my mind, I think, and that's hard. It takes effort and it's nerveracking. Okay, I got it. But then there's the moment you go out on stage. and you think, well, I know I had it, but can I do it? No notes. - Yeah. - And then the question is, well, you're gonna find out while you do it. And so then I go out on stage. and I don't talk to the audience. I talk to one person at a time. And you can talk to one person, you know, 'cause you know how to do that.

So I talk to a person and not too long. 'cause I don't wanna make them too nervous. And then someone else and someone else, and then I'm in contact with the audience. And then I can tell if the words are landing and I listen. It's like are they rustling around? Are they dead quiet? Because you want dead quiet. - Oh, I see 'cause that's what focus sounds like. You're in it together then. - You bet. Well, and also here's a good rule. if you're learning to speak publicly, I never say a word till everyone is 100% quiet.

And it's a great way to start a talk. because you're setting the frame, eh, and if the frame is well, I'll talk while you're talking, the message is, well, you can talk. This is a place where everybody can talk. It's like, no, it's not. This is a place where people paid to hear me talk. So I'm not gonna talk till everyone's listening. And so then you get that stillness and then you just wait. because that stillness turns into an expectation.

And then it turns into a kind of nervous expectation. Like what the hell is he doing? It's not manipulative. It's a sense of timing. It's like just when that's right, you think, okay, now it's time to start. - Well, the interesting thing. about that nervous expectation. is from an audience perspective, we're in it together. - Yeah. - I mean, into that silence, there is a togetherness to it. - Of course, it's the union of everyone's attention. - Yeah. - Yeah. And that's a great thing. I mean, you love that at a concert. when everyone, it's not silence then,

but when everyone's attention is unified. and everyone's moving in unison, it's like we're all worshiping the same thing, right? And that would be the point of the conversation. The point of the lecture, and the worship. is the direction of attention towards it. And it's communion. because everyone's doing it at the same time. And so, I mean, there's not much difference. between lecture theater and a church in that regard, right? It's the same fundamental layout and structure. And they're very integrally associated with one another,

one really grew out of the other, the lecture theater grew out of the church. So it's perfectly reasonable to be thinking about it. in those terms. And then, okay, so after the lecture. we play a piece of music that is a piece of music. that I've been producing with some musicians. for a couple of books I'm gonna release in the fall. Terrible books. "ABC of Childhood Tragedy.". They're called dark, dark books. Dark and comical books.

Terrible books. Heartbreaking illustrations. We set them to music, and so we play a piece from that. And then afterwards I usually meet about 150 people. to have photographs, so each of of those is a little-. - [Lex] Is there a little sparkle of human connection. that you have to- - A lot. A lot. It's a very intense 10 seconds with every person. You think, well, how 10 seconds be intense? It's like pay enough attention.

It gets intense real quick. - Does it break your heart to say goodbye so many times? - It's like being in a wedding lineup, at a wedding that you wanna be at. And everybody's dressed up and that's so weird, eh, 'cause I bought these expensive suits. when I went on tour and it broke my heart. 'cause I spent so much money on them. I thought, God, that's completely unconscionable. I thought no way, man. - Yeah. - I'm in this 100%. And so I'm gonna dress with respect. And.

like 60% of the audience comes in two or three piece suits. They're all dressed up. Then there's this line to greet me. and they're all happy to see me. That's not so hard to take. You know? Although it is in a sense, right? Because normal interactions are pretty shallow. and you think I don't want shallow interactions. It's like yes, you do most of the time. - Yeah. It's intense. - It's very intense. - And I don't know if you- - You've had a taste of this. no doubt 'cause people recognize you. - Yeah, but I also have.

when a person recognizes me and they come with the love. and they're often brilliant people, one of the thoughts I have to deal with, one of the dragons in my own mind is, you know, thinking that I don't deserve that kind attention. - [Jordan] Yeah. Well, you probably don't. - Right, I don't. - But maybe you could. - So it's a burden in that I have to step up. to be the kind of person that deserves that, not deserves that, but in part deserves. that kind of attention, and that's like holy shit.

- It's crucially important too, because if someone comes up to you in an airport. and they know who you are and they're brave enough. to admire you or who you are attempting to be. and you make a mistake, they will never forget it. - Yeah. - So it's a high stakes enterprise. - And the flip side of that, especially with young people, a few words you can say can change. the direction of their life. - Yeah. One way or another. And so I really have to watch this too in airports. 'cause I do not like airports.

I do not like the creeping totalitarianism in airports. They've always bothered me. - Yes. - They really bothered me. - Yes. - And I'm an unpleasant travel companion. for my wife sometimes because of that. Although I think we've worked that out. Thank God 'cause we're doing a lot of traveling, but most of the security guards. and the border personnel, all those people, they know me. And as a general rule, they're positively predisposed to me. And so if I'm peevish or irritable. then well, that's not good, it's not good.

And so that's a tight rope to walk too. because I do not like that creeping totalitarianism, but by the same token, you know, if you're just one of the crowd, just, sometimes you it's good just to be one of the crowd. and then you're a little irritable. and people can just brush that off. But if you're someone they have dared to open their heart to. 'cause that's what admiration is,

and you betray that, then that's a real, they'll never forget it. And then they'll tell everyone too. So it takes a lot of alertness. And so Tammy and I, our life has got complicated. because in Toronto, for example, we can't really just go for a walk. It's always a high drama production, 'cause always people come up. and they have some heartrending story to tell. And I'm not being cynical about that. - Yes. - It's a hard thing to bear.

because people don't do that. They don't just open themselves up to you like that. and share the tragedy of their life. But that's an everyday occurrence. And so when we go up to our cottage, which is outta the city, it's a relief, you know, because as wonderful as that is, like it's a weird, I have a weird life because everywhere I go, it's very weird. It's like I'm surrounded by old friends. because I walk down the street in any city now virtually.

and people say, "Hello, Dr. Peterson. So nice to see you.". Or they say better things than that. Very rarely bad things. One experience in 5,000, maybe. Very rare. Although you don't forget those either, but it's very strange. - And there's an intimacy, they know you well. And because they leap into, they avoid the small talk often. - Mm-hmm. They leap into familiarity. - It really is like it's an old friend.

and it feels like that. For me personally, the experience is the goodbye hurts because. there's a sense where you're never gonna. see that friend again. - Right. Yeah. That's a strange thing, eh? - So to me, a lot of the, a lot of it just feels like goodbyes. - Mm-hmm. And it is. You're right about that. And I mean, that's I suppose in some sense. part of the pain of opening yourself up to people. because they also, Tammy has been struck particularly.

She said, "I really never knew what men were like.". I said, "Well, what do you mean?". She said, "I cannot believe how polite the men are. when they come and talk to you.". 'Cause it's always the same. The pattern's very similar. The person comes up. They're mostly men. Not always, but mostly. And they're tentative and they're very polite. Very, very polite. And they say, "I hope I'm not bothering you. Do you mind that I say...". They're not bothering me. And I'm doing everything I can.

to not be the guy who's bothered by that. It's like, who do you think you are? - Yeah. (laughing) Yes. - You're the guy that what, is famous and now is above that? - Yeah. - You don't wanna be that guy. - No. - So you wanna be grateful. all the time when people open up like that. And so you gotta be alert and on point to do that properly, like right away, 'cause for you, it's five seconds. or 10 seconds or 20 seconds, whatever it is,

but for them they've opened up. and so you can really nail them if you're foolish. - After the 150 people, how do you come down from that? How do you find yourself again? - Well, that was often when I got caught in Twitter traps, you know, 'cause I'm so burned out by then. from the talk and the audience interactions. and the whole day, 'cause it's a new city, it's a new hotel. It's a new 5,000 people.

It's a new book chapter. It's a whole new horizon of ideas. and it's off to another city the next day. I'm so burnt out by then that I'm not as good. at controlling my impulses as I might be. and Twitter was a real catastrophe for that. 'cause it would hook me and then I couldn't... Like I used to, when I was working on my book a lot, I used to call Tammy. I'd say, "Look, you have to come and get me. I can't stop. I can't stop.". I got tired, eh? And then I kind of 'cause it's part. of a kind of hypomanic focus.

I couldn't quit. It's like, oh no, I'm still writing. I need to get away from this, but I couldn't stop. And so it's better to. read something. A book. - Fiction, nonfiction? - Fiction. Stephen King. I was reading a lot of Stephen King. when I was on tour last time. That was good. I like Stephen King a lot. - So great narratives. - Great and great characterization. You know? And there's a familiarity about Steven King's writing too.

that he writes about people you know. And so I really found that a relief. and so that was useful. And that in order to tolerate this, let's say, or to be able to sustain it, well, that's taken a lot of negotiation. on the part of Tammy and I, because she's dragged into this and you know, her life is part of this, whatever this is. And she's had to find her way and has. For example, now she has a different hotel room.

than me when we travel. And she found that she didn't wanna be on the tour. this spring and I was ill again for part of it. and that made it complicated, but she went away back home and she came back and she said, and she was nervous about it, she said, "I think I need my own room.". And part of me was not happy with that. It's like, what do you mean, you need your, like are we not married anymore? It's like you need your own room. And she said, "Well, you know, I can't,". she has to do exercises because she was really sick. and she has to keep herself in shape. And she has to have some time to do that.

And she does a lot of prayer and meditation. and she needs the time and she has her own podcast, which is going quite well and she needs the time. And I trust her and she said, "Well, I need this in order to continue.". And I thought, "Well, okay, like if you need this in order to continue. Yes.". 'Cause she went away and didn't say, "Well, I don't want to be on the tour. I don't wanna do this anymore.". She went way and prayed, let's say, how can I continue to do this? And that was the answer.

And so she has her own hotel room. and that was a really good decision on her part. And she's very good and getting better all the time. at figuring out what has to happen for her. to make this sustainable. And all that's been is a plus, 'cause I don't want to travel without her. And I don't want her life to be miserable. and I want her to be fully on board. And so she has to be properly selfish. like everyone does in a relationship.

- Yeah, well, and not just that, this is a weird thing that you're doing. and you have to, both you and her have to figure out. how to manage this very intense intellectual social journey. - Well, there's another element to it too. that I didn't tell you about. So that was a typical day, but it's missing a big component. because usually we also have a dinner. with like 30 cultural representatives, I suppose, 10 to 30 from each country. 'cause I have a network of people who have networks.

who are setting me up with key decision makers. in each country. And so then we have like an hour and a half of that. Now sometimes that's on a day when I don't have a talk, but sometimes the talks are back to back. And so she also has to manage that and to be gracious, and then people are showing us exciting things. on tours in the cities which is all, like it's a surfeit of wonderful. - Yes, exactly. But yeah. You have to be there for it.

You have to be present for it mentally. - Yeah. - As a curious mind, as an intellectual mind. How do you get to sleep? - Fortunately, that is almost never a problem. Even when I was unbelievably ill for about three years, I thought about that a lot too, you know, that I didn't do a really good job of explaining that. while I was ill because it appeared in some sense. that the reason I was ill was. because I was taking benzodiazepines, but that isn't why. I was ill and then I took them.

and very low dose and I took that for a long time. and it helped whatever was wrong with me. And it looks like it was an allergy. or maybe multiple allergies and then that stopped working. And so I took a little bit more for about a month. and that made it way worse. and so then I cut back a lot, and then, then things really got outta hand and so-. - So there was a deeper thing. - Oh yeah. Definitely. - Then the benzo. - Oh yeah. - What can you put words to-.

- Well, I had a lot of immune... Well, my daughter, as everyone knows, has a very reactive immune system. And Tammy has three immunological conditions. Each of them quite serious. And I had psoriasis and peripheral uveitis, which is an autoimmune condition and alopecia areata. and chronic gum disease, all of which appeared to be allergy related. And so Mikhaila seems to have got all of that. And so that, and that I think was at the bottom of. 'cause I also had this proclivity to depression.

that was part of my family history. But I think that was all immunological as far as I can tell. So one of the things that's happened to me, I always noticed I really couldn't breathe. Like I could breathe about 1/4 as much as I sometimes could. And so I was always short of breath. and it looks like what that was perhaps. was I was always on the border of an anaphylactic reaction, which is not pleasant. And that's hyper sympathetic activation,

no parasympathetic activation. I couldn't relax at all. - That's a immunological response. - Allergic response. Yeah. So anyways, that was what seemed, now this, I don't like to talk about this much. 'cause it's so bloody radical and you know, I don't like to propagate it, but this diet seems to have stopped all of that. I don't have psoriasis. All of the patches have gone. - Yeah. - My gum disease, which is incurable. I had multiple surgeries to deal with it, is completely gone. Took three years.

My right eye, which was quite cloudy. It's cleared up completely. What else has changed? Well, I lost 50 pounds like instantly and kept it off. - Well, I should mention that I, too, am not a deep investigator of nutritional science. I have my skepticism towards the degree. to which it is currently a science. 'cause like a lot of complex systems, it's full of mystery and full of profiteers, people that profit off different kinds of diets.

But I should say for me personally, it does seem that I feel by far the best. when I eat only meat. It's very interesting. And I discovered that. a long time ago. - It's ridiculous. First of all. - How'd you discover it? - So the discovery went like this, I started listening to ultra-marathon runners. about 15 years ago. and they started talking about fat adapted running. So I first discovered that I don't have to run super fast.

to enjoy running. That in fact, I really enjoy running at a slower pace. So that was like, step one. I was like, oh, okay. If I maintain something called the math rule, which is a pretty low heart rate, if I maintain that, you can actually get pretty fast. while maintaining a pretty slow average speed in general. Anyway, they fuel themselves on low carb diets. So I got into that. On top of that they also fast often.

So I discovered how incredible my mind feels when fasted, you know, people call it intermittent fasting, but-. - Well, that's an optimization of death, eh, because when you fast your body logically and obviously. if you think about it biologically is, well, what does your body scavenge first? Well, damaged tissue. So, and I know the literature on fasting to some degree. and it's very compelling literature.

If you starve dogs down, I think it's 20% below, rats too, below their optimal body weight they live 30% longer. - Yeah. - That's a lot, 30%. Like it's like 30%. Yeah, 30%. - Well, there is aspect to a lot of these things. that make me nervous 'cause I always feel like. there's no free lunch, that I'm gonna pay for it somehow, but there's a focus that I am able to attain when I fast. Especially when I eat once a day. My mind is almost like nervously focused.

It's almost like an anxiety, but a positive one or one that I can channel. into just like an excitement. - You know, I wonder how much of that's associated. with, well, imagine that that signifies lack of food, which not that hard to imagine. Well, maybe you should be a lot more alert. in that situation, right? - Yeah. - Biologically speaking, because you're in hunting mode, let's say, you know, not desperate, but in hunting mode. And God only knows maybe human beings. should be in hunting mode all the time.

- Often, but we don't know that. So I wonder if it has a stress on the system. that long term cause the system to-. - It doesn't look like it. - Okay. - It seems, on the case of fasting, not. And then on top of that, I discovered that the thing I enjoy, I just don't enjoy eating fat as much. - Mm-hmm. - So I love eating meat. And when you talk about low carb diet, so I just discovered through that process, if somewhat fatty meat, but just meat,

I just feel a lot of the things. that make me feel weird about food, like a little groggy or like full or just whatever, the aspects of food that I don't enjoy, they're not there with meat. And I'm still able to enjoy company. and when I eat once a day and eat meat, at least in Texas, you could still have all the merriment of-. - [Jordan] Yeah. - You have dinner with friends. Now I don't do the, you know,

you have a very serious thing that. there's health benefits that you are very serious about. For me, I could still drink whiskey. Like I'll still do the things that add a little bit of-. - Spice. - Spice into the thing. - Yeah. - Now when you completely. remove the spice, it does become more difficult. - Yeah. It's more difficult socially. And Tammy seems to only be able to eat lamb, although she might be able to eat non aged beef. And that makes traveling complicated too.

- Yeah. - Right. Because, well, for obvious reasons. It's like really that's all you can eat? Yeah. Well, c'est la vie. And maybe that's a form of craziness, but-. - If we can return to actually the thing you were talking. about when you're thinking about a question. before the lecture. - Yeah. - Let me ask you about thinking in general. This is something maybe that you and Jim Keller. think a lot about is thinking how to think. How do you think through an idea?

- Well, first of all, I think, okay, that's a really good question. We've tried to work that out with this essay app. that my son and I have developed, because if you're gonna write, the first question is, well, what should I write about? - What's the name of the app? - Essay.app. - Mm-hmm. - And well, the first question is, well, what bugs you? What's bugging you? This is such a cool thing, it's like where is my destiny? Well, what bothers you?

Well, that's where your destiny is. Your destiny is to be found in what bothers you. Why do those things bother you? There's a lot of things you could be bothered by, like a million things, man. But some things grip you. They bug you and they might make you resentful and bitter. 'cause they bug you so much. Like they're your things, man. They've got you. So then I look for a question. that I would like the answer to, and I would really like the answer to it. So I don't assume I already have the answer.

'cause I would actually really like to have the answer. So if I could get a better answer, great. And so that's the first thing and that's like a prayer. It's like, okay, here's a mystery. I would like to delve into it further. Well, so that's humility. It's like here's a mystery. Which means I don't know. I would like to delve into it further, which means I don't know enough already. And then comes the revelation.

It's like, well, what's a revelation? Well, if you ask yourself a question, it's a real question. Do you get an answer or not? And the answer is, well, yeah. Thoughts start to appear in your head. So- - From somewhere. - That's right, from somewhere. - Where do they come from? Do you have a sense? - Depends on what you're aiming at. - Depends on the question. - No, no. It does to some degree. It depends on your intent. So imagine that your intent is to make things better.

Then maybe they come from the place that's designed. to make things better. Maybe your intent is to make things worse. Then they come from hell. And you think not really. It's like you're so sure about that, are you? - But is your intent conscious? Like are you able-. - It's conscious and habitual, right? 'Cause as you practice something consciously, it becomes habitual, but it's conscious. It's like when I sit down before I do a lecture, I think, okay, what's the goal here?

To do the best job I can. To what end? Well, people are coming here not for political issues, they're coming here because they're trying to. make their lives better. Okay. So what are we doing? We're conducting a joint investigation. into the nature of that which makes life better. Okay, what's my role? To do as good a job about that as possible. What state of mind do I have to be in? Am I annoyed about the theater or am I clued in. and thrilled that 4,000 people have showed up.

at substantial expense and trouble. to come and listen to me talk. And if I'm not in that state of mind, I think, well maybe I need something to eat or maybe I need to talk. to someone because in gratitude is no place to start. It's like I should be thrilled to be there obviously. And so that orientation has to be there. And then is it conscious? All this is conscious. What am I serving? The highest good I can conceptualize. What is that? I have some sense, but I don't know it in the final analysis,

which is why the investigation is being conducted. Who's doing it? Me, whoever I'm communing with and the audience. And so I try to get myself. and I chase everybody away for that. It's like I have to do that by myself. - Are you writing stuff down? - Yes, at that point I I just make point notes. and it's usually about maybe 30 notes. But then on stage I never refer to them, and I often don't even use the structure that I laid out. - It's kind of an interesting thing, from where do powerful phrases come from?

Do you try to encapsulate an idea into a sentence or two? - Well, when I talk, I've practiced this since consciously, since 1985, I try to feel and see if the words are stepping stones. or foundation stones, right? It's like is this solid? Is this word solid? Is this phrase solid? Is this sentence solid? Like it's a real sense of fundamental foundation.

under each word. And I suppose people ask me if I pray, and I would say I pray before every word. - [Lex] Yeah. - Well, when you're asking questions, like you're very clear headed. and present in your ability to ask questions and inquire. So how do you do that? - So first of all,

I'm worried that my mind easily gets trapped. when I step on a word and I know it's unstable, you kind of realize that you don't really know. the definitions of any words you use. and that can be debilitating. So I kind of try to be more carefree. about the words I use, because otherwise you get trapped. - [Jordan] You don't wanna be obsessional.

- Like literally my mind halfway through the sentence. will think, well, what does the word sentence mean? - [Jordan] Right. Right, right. Well, you know, neurologically-. - And then everything else just explodes. You're a big picture idea explodes. and you lost yourself in the minutiae. - Well neurologically there's a production center. and an editing center. And those can be separately affected by strokes. And so often when people are writing or talking,

they try to activate both at the same time. And so people will try to write an essay. and get every sentence right in the first draft. That's a big mistake. And so then you might say, well, how can you be careful with your words but carefree? And the answer is orient yourself properly, right? While in the conversation we're having, you have an orientation structure. You want to be prepared. You wanna be attentive. Then you wanna have an interesting conversation. and you wanna have the kind of interesting conversation. that other people wanna listen to.

that will be good for them in some manner. Okay. So that's pretty good frame. And then you kind of scour your heart and you think. is that really what you want? Are you after fame or after notoriety. or are you after money? I'm not saying any of those things are necessarily bad, but they're not optimal, especially if you're not willing to admit them, right? And so they can contaminate you. So you want to be decontaminated. so you have the right trip, let's say. And so you have to put yourself,

that's a meditative practice. You have to put yourself in the right receptive position. with the right goal in mind, then you can, and I think you can get better and better at this, then you can trust what's going to happen. You know, so for example, before I came here, I mean, I presume you have a reason. for doing the podcast with me. What's the reason?

- I mean, we wanted to talk for a long time. - Yeah. - So the reason has evolved. One of the reasons is I've listened to you. for quite a long time so you've become a one way friend. And I have many, one way friends. Some of my best friends don't even know I exist. (Lex laughing). So I'm a big fan of podcast and audio books. Actually, most of my friends are dead. - Yeah, right. (Lex laughing). - The writers. - The definition of a reader.

- Yeah. (laughing). - Guy with a lot of great dead friends. - So I wanted to meet this one way friend, I suppose, and have a conversation. And then there was this kind of puzzle. that I've been longing to solve. the same reason I went to Ukraine. of asking this question of myself, who am I? And what was this part of the world? What is this thing that happened in the 20th century. that I lost so much of my family there. And I feel so much of my family is defined by that place.

Now that place includes the Soviet Union. It includes Russia and Ukraine. It includes Nazi Germany, includes these big powerful leaders. and huge millions of people that were lost in the beauty, the power of the dream, but where also the torture that was forced onto them. through different governmental institutions.

And you are somebody that seemed from some angle. to also be drawn to try to understand what was that. And not in some sort of historical sense, but in a deeply psychological human sense. What is that? Will it repeat again? In what ways is it repeating again? - And how can we stop it. - And how can we stop it? - That's the crucial issue. - I felt I wanted to, from a very different backgrounds.

pull at the thread of that curiosity. You know, I'm an engineer, you're a psychologist, both lost in that curiosity and both wear suits (laughing). and a talk with various levels of eloquence (laughing). about sort of. the shadows that history. cast on us. And so that was one.

And also the psychology. I wanted to be a psychiatrist for a long time. I was fascinated by the human mind. until I discovered artificial intelligence, the fact that I could program and make a robot move. And until I discovered that magic, I thought I wanted to understand the human mind. by being a psychiatrist, by talking to people. through talk therapy, psychotherapy. - So now you've got the best of both worlds. because you get to talk to people and you get build robots. - Yeah, I mean, but the dream ultimately is the robot.

That I felt like by building the thing. can you start to try to understand it. I think that's one way. - Yeah, right. - I mean, we all have different skills of proclivity. So like my particular one. has to do with. I learn by building. - Yeah. - I think through a thing by building it. - Yeah. - And programming. is a wonderful thing because it allows you. to like build a little toy example.

So in the same way you can do a little thought experiment, programming allows you to create. a thought experiment in action. It can move, it can live, it can-. - Right. - And then you can. ask questions of it. So all of those, because of my interest in Freud and Jung, you also in different ways. have delved deeply into humanity, the human psyche, through the perspective. of those psychologists.

So for all those reasons, I thought our paths should cross. - Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, so that's quite a frame for a discussion, right? You had all sorts of reasons. And then you think, well, are you just letting the conversation go where it will? It's like, well, not exactly. You spent all this time. It's not like this came about by accident, this conversation, you spent all this time framing it. And so all of that provides the implicit sub structure. for the play in the conversation. And if you have that implicit, here's another way.

This is very much worth knowing is. if you get the implicit structure of perception right, everything becomes a game. And not only that, a game you wanna play. and maybe in the final analysis, a game you'd wanna play forever. So, you know, that's obviously a distant beckoning ideal, but we know the games need rules. Or there's no play. - Is there advice you can give.

now that we know the frame to give to me, Lex, about how to do this podcast better? How to. think about this world? How to be a good engineer? how to be a good human being? From what you know. - Take your preoccupation. with suffering seriously. It's a serious business.

Right? And that's part of that, to circle back to the beginning, let's say, that's that willingness to gaze into the abyss, which is obviously what you were doing. when you went to Ukraine. It's like it's gazing into the abyss that makes you better. The thing is, and this is maybe where Nietzsche's ideas, not as differentiated as it became, sometimes your gaze can be forcefully directed.

towards the abyss. And then you're traumatized. If it's involuntary and accidental, it can kill you. The more it's voluntary, the more transformative it is. And that's part of that idea about facing death in hell. It's like can you tolerate death in hell? And the answer is, this terrible answer is yes. To the degree that you're willing to do it voluntarily.

And then you might ask, well, why should I have to subject myself to death in hell? I'm innocent. And then the answer to that is. even the innocent must be voluntarily sacrificed. to the highest good. (Lex inhales and exhales deeply). - That's such an interesting distinction. Voluntary suffering. - Voluntary. Yeah.

Yeah, well, that's why the central Christian doctrine. is pick up your cross and follow me. And I'm speaking, not in religious terms saying that. I'm just speaking as a psychologist. It's like one of the things we've learned. in the last 100 years is voluntary exposure to that. which freezes and terrifies you. in measured proportions is curative. - So a form of, at least in part involuntary sufferings,

depression, do you have advice for people on how to find a way out? You're a man who has suffered in this way, perhaps continue to suffer in this way. How do you find a way out? - The first thing I do as a clinician. if someone comes to me and says they're depressed. is ask myself a question. Well, what does this person mean by that?

So I have to find out like, because maybe they're not depressed, maybe they're hyper anxious or maybe they're obsessional. Like there's various forms of powerful negative emotion, so they need to be differentiated. But then the next question you have to ask is, well, are you depressed or do you have a terrible life? Or is it some combination of the two? So if you're depressed, as far as I can tell, you don't have a terrible life. You have friends, you have family,

you have an intimate relationship, you have a job or a career, your about as educated as you should be. given your intelligence, you use your time outside of work wisely. You're not beholden to alcohol or other temptations. You're engaged in the community in some fundamental sense. and all that's working. Now, if you have all that and you're feeling really awful, you're either ill or you're depressed. And so then sometimes there's a biochemical route. to that treatment of that. My experience as being as a clinician.

is if you're depressed, but you have a life. and you take an antidepressant, it will probably help you a lot. Now, maybe you're not depressed exactly. You just have a terrible life. What does that look like? You have no relationship. Your family's a mess. You've got no friends. You've got no plan. You've got no job. You use your time outside of work not only badly, but destructively, you have a drug or alcohol habit.

or some other vice, pornography addiction. You are completely unengaged in the surrounding community. You have no scaffolding whatsoever to support you. in your current mode of being or you move forward. And then as a therapist, well, you do two things. Well, if it's depression per se, well, like I said, there's sometimes a biochemical route, a nutritional route. There's ways that can be addressed. It's probably physiological, at least in part, if you're depressed, but you have an okay life.

Sometimes it's conceptual. You can turn to dreams sometimes to help people. 'cause dreams contain the seeds of the potential future. And if your person is a real good dreamer. and you can analyze dreams, that can be really helpful. But that seems to have only true for more creative people. And for the people who just have a terrible life, it's like, okay, you have a terrible life. Well, let's pick a front. How about you need, how about you need a friend,

like one sort of friend. Do you know how to shake hands and introduce yourself? I'll have the person show me. So let's do it for a sec. So. It's like this, hi, I'm Jordan. And people don't know how to do that. And then they can't even get the ball rolling. For the listener, Jordan just gave me a firm handshake. - Yeah. As opposed to a dead fish, you know? And there's these elementary social skills. that hypothetically, if you were well cared for, you learned when you were like three.

- Yeah. - And sometimes people have, I had lots of clients. to whom no one ever paid any attention. And they needed like 10,000 hours of attention. And some of that was just listening. 'cause they had 10,000 hours of conversations. they never had with anyone. And they were all tangled up in their head. and they had to just, one client in particular. I worked with this person for 15 years. And what she wanted from me.

was for me just to shut the hell up for 50 minutes, was very hard for me. And to just tell me what had happened to her. and then what happened at the end of the conversation, then I could discuss a bit with her. And then as we progressed through the years, the amount of time that we spent in discussion increased. in proportion in these sessions until by the time. we stopped seeing each other, when my clinical practice collapsed,

we were talking about 80% of the time, but she literally, she'd never been attended to properly ever. And so she was an uncarved block in the Taoist sense, right? She hadn't been subjected to those flaming swords. that separated the wheat from the chaff. And so you can do that in therapy. If you're listening and you're depressed, I would say, if you can't find a therapist, and that's getting harder and harder, 'cause it's actually become illegal to be a therapist now.

'cause you have to agree with your clients, which is a terrible thing to do with them. Just like it's terrible just to arbitrarily oppose them. You could do the self authoring program online. 'cause it helps you write an autobiography. And so if you have memories. that are more than 18 months old. that bother you when you think them up, part of you is locked inside that. An undeveloped part of you is still trapped in that, that's a metaphorical way of thinking about,

that's why it still has emotional significance. So you can write about your past experiences. But I would say wait for at least 18 months. if something bad has happened to you, 'cause otherwise you just hurt yourself. again by encountering it. You can bring yourself up to date with an autobiography. There's an analysis of faults and virtues. That's the present authoring. And then there's a guided writing exercise. that helps you make a future plan. That's... Young men who do that could go to college,

young men who do that 90 minutes, just the future authoring, 90 minutes. They're 50% less likely to drop out. That's all it takes. - So sometimes depression. is this heavy cloud that makes it hard. to even make a single step towards it? Or you said isolate, make a friend. - Oh man. Sometimes like- - The first step. is extremely difficult. - Oh my God. Sometimes it's way worse than that. Like I had clients who were so depressed. they literally couldn't get out of bed. So what's their first step?

It's like can you sit up once today? No. Can you prop yourself up on your elbows once today? Like you just, you scale back the dragon. till you find one that's conquerable that moves you forward. There's a rubric for life. Scale back the dragons till you find one conquerable. and it'll give you a little bit of goal. Commensurate it with the struggle. But the plus side of that, 'cause you think that God, that's depressing.

You mean I have to start by sitting up? Well, you do if you can't sit up. But the plus side of that is. it's the pareto distribution issue is that aggregates, exponentially increase. And failures do too, by the way. But aggregates exponentially increase. So once you start the ball rolling, it can get zipping along pretty good. This person that I talked about. was incapable of sitting with me in a cafe. when we first met, just talking,

even though I was her therapist. But by the end she was doing standup comedy. So you know, it took years, but still most people won't do standup comedy. That's quite the bloody achievement. She would read her poetry on stage too. So for someone who was petrified into paralysis. by social anxiety and who had to start very small. is a hell of an accomplishment.

- Yeah. It all starts with one step. Do you have advice for young people in high school? A lot of people look up to you for advice, for strength, for strength to search for themselves, to find themselves. - Take on some responsibility. Do something for other people. You're doing something for yourself while you're doing that. even if you don't know it for sure, 'cause you're a community across time.

Find something to serve. - Somebody to help. - Someone to help. - A problem to solve. - A job. Find a job, do your best with the customers. Don't be above your job. You're gonna get an entry level job when you're a kid. Well, what else would you want? You wanna be the boss? What do you know? You don't know anything. You could be the boss of your job. You know, if you're working in a grocery store. or you're working in a convenience store, assuming you're not working for terrified tyrants, you can be nice to the customers. You can develop your social skills.

You can learn how to handle boss/employee relationship. You can be there 15 minutes early and leave 15 minutes late. Like you can learn in an entry level job, man. And I'll tell you, if you take an entry level job. and you learn and it's a reasonably decent place, you will not be in an entry level job for long. because everyone who's competent is desperate. for competent people. And if you go and show yourself as competent, they'll be a trial period, but if you go show yourself as competent, all sorts of doors you didn't even know were there. will start opening like mad.

- So you strive for competence, for craftsmanship. - Yeah. Yep, yep. For discipline. You know, I mean, I said in one of the chapters in my books. is focused on putting your house in order. It's like, well, how do you start? Make your bed. You know? It actually took me quite a long time in my life. before I made my bed regularly in the morning, most of my life was in pretty good order, but that was one thing I didn't have in order. My clothes in my closet as well. All that's in order, not all of it.

I'm cleaning out some drawers right now, but look around and see what bugs you in your room. Just look. It's like, okay, I'm in my room. Do I like this room? No, it bugs me. Okay. Why? Well, the paint's peeling there. and it's dusty there and the carpet's dirty. and that corner's kind of ugly. And the light there isn't very good. And my clothes closet's a mess. so I don't even like to open it. Okay. That's a lot of problems. That sucks.

That's a lot of opportunity. Pick something and fix it. - Something that bugs you. - Yeah. But not too much. So the rule is pick something that you know would make, pick a problem, pick a solution to it that you know. would help that you could do, that you would do. So you have to negotiate with yourself. It's like, well, I won't clean up this room. How do you know? Well, I've been in here for 10 years. and I've never cleaned it up. It's like, well obviously that's too big a dragon for you. Would you clean one drawer?

Find out. And so imagine now you wanna be happy. when you open that drawer and you think, well, that's stupid. It's like, is it? Maybe it's your sock drawer. Which I cleaned up in my room the other day, by the way. You're gonna open that every morning. - Yeah. - So that's like 30 seconds. of your life every day. Okay. So that's three minutes a week. That's 12 minutes a month. That's two hours a year. So maybe your life is made out,

if you've got 16 hours a day, let's figure this out. Five, 12 in an hour, 12 in an hour, 144 in 12 hours. Yeah. Let's say 200. 200 five minute chunks. That's your life. - Ladies and gentlemen, Jordan Peterson did just some math. of how many five minute chunks there are in a day. And I'm pretty sure that's pretty accurate. - It's approximately right. So you got 200 five minute chunks. And they repeat, a lot of them repeat. So if you get every one of those right, they're trivial, right? Who cares what my sock drawer looks like.

It's there. Fair enough, man. But that's your life. The things you repeat every day, the mundane things. Think I could get all those mundane things right. That's the game rules. It's like now all the mundane is in place. Now you can play 'cause all the mundane's in place. And this is actually true. So with children, imagine you want your children to play. Well, play is very fragile neurologically. Any competing motivation or emotion will suppress play. So everything has to be in order. Everything has to be a walled garden.

before the children will play. That's a good way of thinking about it. So you put everything in order and you think, oh my God, now I'm tyrannized by this order. It's like, no, you aren't, not if it's voluntary. And then the order is the precondition for the freedom. And so then all of a sudden. you get all these things in order. It's like, oh, look at this. I've got some room to play here. And then maybe you're not depressed. Now, it's often not that simple. You know? Not that that simple. Try putting your room in order. Perfect order.

That's hard, man. - And it's a really powerful way to think about. those five minute chunks. Just get one of them right in a day. - Yeah, well, if you do that for 200 days, your life is in order. - Yeah. - You know, I thought I did that with my clients a lot. So a lot of them would come home from work, the guys, eh, and their wives would meet them at the door. and it'd be a fight right away, you know? And it's a clash there 'cause he comes home and he's tired. and hungry and he's worked all day. and he's hoping that, you know, he gets welcomed when he comes back to the home. But then the wife is at home. and she's been with the kids all day.

and she's tired and hungry. And she's hoping that when he comes home, he'll show her some appreciation for what's happened today. And then they clash and then they both have problems. to discuss 'cause they've had their troubles during the day. And so then every time they get together, they are not like it's a bit of a fight for 20 minutes. And then the whole evening is screwed. And so then you think, okay, here's the deal. It's knock and the door will open. Okay, you get to pick what happens when you come home, but you have to figure out what it is.

So now this is the deal. You treat yourself properly. You imagine coming home. and it goes the way you want and need it to go. Okay, what does that look like? You get to have it, but you have to know what it is. What does it look like? And you think, okay, I want to come home. I want to be happy about coming home. I come home. I open the door. I say, "Hello, honey. I'm home.". My wife says, "Hi! It's so nice to hear your voice.". She comes up. She says, "Hi, dear.".

She gives you a hug. She says, "How is your day?". And you say, "Well, we'll sit and talk about that.". How is your day? Well, we'll sit and talk about that. Do you need something to eat? Probably. Let's go sit and talk about our day. It's like that sounds pretty good. Okay. That sounds pretty good. Might not be perfect, but sounds a hell of a lot better. than what we're doing now. So how about we go talk to, we'll go talk to your wife. He'll say, okay. This is what's happening when I come home,

I would like it to be better. What would you like to have happen. if you could have what you wanted? And so she sits down and she thinks, okay, if he comes home, what do I want to have happen? And then now you got two visions and you say, well, what would you like? And you listen. And she says, what would you like? And you tell her, and then you think, okay now can we bring these visions together. so not only do we both get what we want, but because we've brought them together, we even get more than we want. Well, who wouldn't agree to that? Unless they were aiming down.

And that's so exciting, it's not a compromise. It's a union of ideals that even makes a better ideal. And then you get to come home. And then there's another rule that goes along with that, which is please dear, have the grace. to allow me to do this stupidly and badly while I learn. at least 20 times. - Yeah. - And I'll give you the same leeway. and then we'll practice stupidly for 20 times. and we'll talk about it and then maybe we'll get it right.

for the next 10,000 times. - Yeah. - Right? And you can do that with your whole life. and you can do that with your kids. and you can do that with your family. Like it's not easy, but you can do. It's a lot easier than the alternative. - Let me ask for some dating advice from Jordan Peterson. How do you find, on that topic, the love of your life? - That's a good question. I was asked that multiple times on my tour. Three times in a row in fact, 'cause we ask people to use this Slido gadget.

- That's a popular question? - Very! It always came up to the top. and I got asked that three times in a row. and I didn't have a good answer. And then I thought, why don't I have a good answer? I thought, oh, I know why. 'cause that's a stupid question. (Lex laughing). So why? - Yeah. - Why? Because it's putting the cart before the horse. Here's the right question.

How do I make myself into the perfect date? You answer that question and you will not have any problem. answering the previous question. It's like what I want in a partner. Mm mm. If I offered everything I could to a partner, who would I be? You work on that. Ask that question, just ask, just ask yourself. Okay. I have to be the person that women would want. Hmm. Okay. What do they want?

Clean. That's not a bad start. Reasonably good physical shape. So healthy, productive, generous, honest, willing to delay gratification. So you dance with a woman. It's like what's she doing? What are you two doing? Well, it's a patterned, there's patterns happening around you. That's the music, patterns. Patterns of being, that's the music.

Now, can you align yourself with the patterns. of being gracefully? That's what she's checking out. And then can you do that with her? And then can you do that in a playful and attentive manner. and keep your bloody hands to yourself. for at least a minute? And so can you dance in a playful manner? It's like you can go through this in your imagination. and you know, you'll know, you know? And then you think, well, how far am I from those things?

And the answer is usually, man, it's a pretty horrible abyss separating you from that ideal. But the harder you work on. offering other people what they need and want, the more people will line up to play with you. And so it's the wrong question. It's like how can I be the best partner possible? And then you think, well, if I do that, people will just take advantage of me. And that's the non naive objection, right? Because the naive persons think, well, I'll be good.

and everyone will treat me right. It's like the cynic says, no, I'll be good. and someone will take me out. And then you think, well, what do you do about that objection? And the answer is, well, you factor that in. And that's why you're supposed to be, what is it? As soft as a dove and as wise as a serpent. It's like, I know you're full of snakes. I know it. Maybe I know it more than you do, but we'll play anyways.

- Take the risk anyway. - That's right. Voluntarily. Right? And what's so cool about that is that even though. the person you're dealing with is full of snakes, if you offer your hand in trust and it's real, you will evoke the best in them. - Yeah. - And that's true. even I've dealt with people who are pretty damn criminal. and pretty psychopathic and sometimes dangerously so. And you tread very lightly.

when you're dealing with someone like that, especially if they're intoxicated. And even then your best bet is. that alert trust. It's the only, in fact, that the only thing I know that, I had one client who was a paranoid, he was paranoid psychopath. That's a bad combination. He was a bad guy, man. He had like four restraining orders on him. and restraining orders don't work. on the sort of people that you put restraining orders on.

And he used to be harassed now and then by, you know, a bureaucrat in a bank with delusions of power. And he would say to them, he used to kind of act this out. to me when I was talking to him, he'd say, "I'm going to be your worst nightmare.". And he meant it. - Yeah. - And he would do it. He had this obsessional psychopathic vengeance. that was just like right there, paranoid to the hilt.

And paranoid people are hyper acute. So they're watching you. for any sign of deceit or manipulation. And they're really good at it. 'cause like they're 100% focus, that's what paranoid is. It's 100% focus on that. And even under those circumstances, if you step carefully enough, maybe you can avoid the ax. That's a good thing to know. if you ever meet someone truly dangerous.

- Absolutely. I believe in that, that being fragile, nevertheless, taking that leap of trust towards another person, even when they're dangerous, especially when they're dangerous, if you care, if there's something there in those hills you wanna find, then that's probably the only way. you're gonna find it is taking that risk. I have to ask you about "Gulag Archipelago" by Solzhenitsyn. that speak to this very point.

There's so many layers that this book, we could talk about it forever. I'm sure in many ways we are talking about it forever, but there is sort of one of the themes captured. in a few ways that was described to the book. is that line between good and evil. that runs through every human being. As he writes, "The line dividing good and evil. cuts through the heart of every human being. During the life of any heart this line keeps changing place; sometimes it is squeezed one way to exuberant evil.

and sometimes it shifts to allow enough space. for good to flourish. One and the same human being is, at various ages, under various circumstances, a totally different human being. At times he is close to being a devil, at times to sainthood. But his name doesn't change, and to that name we ascribe the whole lot, good and evil.". What do you think about this line? What do you think about this thing where we talked about.

if you give somebody a chance, you actually bring out the best in them. What do you think about this other aspect. that throughout time that line shifts inside each person. and you get to define that shift? What do you think about this line? Are we all capable of evil? - Well, you know, the cosmic drama, that's Satan versus Christ. It's like, well, who's that about if it's not about you? I'm speaking just as a psychologist or as a literary critic,

those are characters. At least they're that. Well, are they human characters? Well, obviously. Well, are they archetypal human characters? Yes. What does that mean cosmically and ontologically? I don't know. Is the world is story? Maybe. - [Lex] But the way stories are often told. is the characters embody a stable-. - Yeah, I know. Not great literature though.

It's very rare in great literature. What you have in great literature generally. is the internal drama, right? As the literature becomes more pop, I would say, the characters are more unitary. so there's a real bad guy and he's all bad. and there's a real good guy and he's all good. And that's not as interesting. It's not as sophisticated. When you reach Dostoevsky in heights. in literary representation or Shakespearean heights, you can identify with the villain.

And that's when literature. really reaches its pinnacle in some sense. - And also the characters change throughout. They shift throughout, they're unpredictable throughout. I'm taking the speaking of Russia more seriously recently. And I've gotten to talk to translators of Dostoevsky. and Tolstoy and. Czechov and those kinds of folks, and one of the mistakes that translators made. with the Dostoevsky for the longest time. is they would quote, unquote, fix the chaotic mess.

that is Dostoevsky because there was a sense. like he was too rushed in his writing. It seemed like there was tangents. that had nothing to do with anything. The characters were unpredictable and inconsistent. There's parts of phrases that seemed to be incomplete, that kind of stuff. And what they realize that is, that's not, that's actually crafted that way. It's not, you know, it's like editing James Joyce, like "Finnegans Wake" or something.

because it doesn't make any sense. They realize that that is the magic of it, that captures the humanity of these characters, that they are unpredictable, they change throughout time. There's a bunch of contradictions. On which point I gotta ask, is there a case to be made that "Brothers Karamazov". is the greatest book ever written? - Yeah. There is a case to be made for that. I don't know. Is it better than "Crime and Punishment"? - Yes. Yeah. - You think so? Why do you, I'm not arguing with it. Why do you think that? - Well, every book is a personal...

Some of my best friends are inside that book. - [Jordan] Yeah. It's an amazing book. There's no doubt about it. - I think some books. are defined by your personal relationship with them. and that one was definitive. And I almost graduated to that one. because for the longest time, "The Idiot" was my favorite book of all. because I identified with the ideas. represented by Prince Myshkin. I also identified- - Ah, that's interesting. - To Prince Myshkin a human being.

- The holy fool. - The fool, yeah, because the world kind of my whole life. still kind of saw me in my perception, in my narrow perception as kind of the fool and I, different from the interpretation. that a lot of people take of this book, I see him as a kind of hero. - Oh, definitely. - To be a naive, quote, unquote, fool, but really just a naive optimist. and naive in the best possible way.

I do believe that- - That's childlike. - Yeah. Childlike is a better, so naive is usually seen as-. - That's childish. Naive. - Yeah. But childlike. - That's why no one enters the kingdom of heaven. unless they become like a child. That's Prince Myshkin. Dostoevsky knew that. So that's why you liked "The Idiot." That's so interesting. See, I think I like "Crime and Punishment". because while you identified with Myshkin. I think I identified more with Raskolnikov. 'cause I was tempted by Luciferian intellect, you know,

in a manner very similar to the manner he was tempted. But I mean, I think you can make a case. that "The Brothers Karamazov". is Dostoevsky's crowning achievement. - Well. - And that's something, man. He ruined literature for me. (Lex chuckles). 'Cause everything else just fell insipid afterwards. - Yeah. - Not everything. Not everything. I found some books that in my experience.

hit that pinnacle. "The Master and Margarita.". That's a deadly book. I've read that I think four times. And I still, there's still, it's unbelievably deep. There's a Nikos Kazantzakis, a Greek writer. Some of his books are... His writing is amazing as well. - Did you ever connect with the literary. like existentialist Camus. or people like Hermann Hesse. or even Kafka? - Yeah. - Did you ever connect with those?

- To the same degree? - Yeah. To the same-. - Enough to be an influence. You know, you have to be deaf in some fundamental sense. not to encounter a great dead friend. and fail to learn, you know? And I mean, I tried to separate the wheat from the chaff. when I read, you know, and I read all the great clinicians. All of them, perhaps not. Those who are foremost in the pantheon. And I tried to pull out what I could and that was a lot. I learned a lot from Freud. I learned a lot from Rogers.

And I learned a lot from, well, from Dostoevsky and Nietzsche. I'm gonna do a course on Dostoevsky and Nietzsche. for this Peterson Academy. This is coming up in January. - Oh, that'll be them together. - [Jordan] I'm really looking forward to it. - You're weaving... - I hadn't thought about doing them together. - Oh. - That'd be fun. That's a good idea. - Well- - That'd be a good idea. (Lex laughing). I'll steal that idea. - No. No. (laughing). You often weave them together really masterfully. because there is religious. in the broad sense of that word themes.

throughout the writing of both. - Yeah, well, there is uncanny parallelisms. in their writing and their lives. So. And Dostoevsky's deeper than Nietzsche. but that's because he was a writer of fiction. - Well, Nietzsche is almost a character. in a Dostoevsky novel. - He is definitely that. He is definitely that. Yes. And apparently Nietzsche knew more about Dostoevsky. than people had thought. There's been some recent scholarship on that ground. Dostoevsky didn't know anything about Nietzsche. as far as I know.

I could be wrong about that. But the thing that Dostoevsky had over Nietzsche. is Nietzsche had to make things propositional. in some real sense, 'cause he was a philosopher. and it's hard to propositionalize things. that are outside your can, but you can characterize them. And so in "The Brothers Karamazov". Ivan is a more developed character than Alyosha. In the explicit sense, he can make better arguments, but Alyosha wins like Myshkin.

because he's the better man. and Dostoevsky can show that in the actions. He can't render it entirely propositional, but that's probably because what's good. can't be rendered entirely proposition. And so Dostoevsky had that edge over Nietzsche. Well, Ivan is this brilliant rationalist atheist, materialist, and puts forward an argument on that front. that's still unparalleled as far as I'm concerned, and overwhelms Alyosha who cannot respond, but Alyosha is still the better man.

Which is very interesting, you know? - Well, you know the funny thing about. those two characters is you, Jordan Peterson, seem to be somebody that at least in part. embodies both because you are one of the intellectuals. of our time, rigorous and thought, but also are able to have that kind of, what would you describe? If you remove the religiosity of Alyosha, there's what's a good word? Love towards the world. - Spirit of encouragement.

- Yes. (laughing) Hmm. Yeah, well, it's, you know, one of the things I did learn perhaps. from looking into the abyss. to the degree that I have had to, or was willing to was that at some level. you have to make a fundamental statement of faith. When God creates the world after each day, he says he saw that it was good. You think, well, is it good? It's like, well, there's a tough question. I mean, you know, do you wanna bring a child.

into a world such as this, which is a fundamental question of whether or not it's good. It's an act of faith to declare that it's good. because the evidence is ambivalent. - Yeah. - And so then you think, okay, well, am I gonna act as if it's good? And what would happen if I did? And maybe the answer to that is I think this is the answer.

The more you act out the proposition that it's good, the better it gets. Dostoevsky said this is something else. Every man is not only responsible for everything he does, but for everything everyone else does. It's like, what, is that profound or are you just insane? Then you think. is what you receive back proportionate to what you deliver?

And the answer to that might be yes. That's a terrifying idea, man. And it's certainly, you can see that it's true in some sense, because people certainly respond to you. in kind with how you treat them. That's certainly the case. - I mean, it's terrifying and it's exciting. - Yeah. Right? (Lex chuckles). But that's an adventure, isn't it? - You, yeah. You create the world by the way you live it.

The world you experience is defined. by the way you live that world. And that's really interesting. And then taken as a collective, we create the world together in that way. - Yeah. - What do you think. is the meaning of it all? What's the meaning of life, Jordan Peterson? We've defined it many, many times. throughout this conversation. - It's the adventure along the route, man. And I would say where's that adventure to be found? In faith. What's the faith? The highest failure is love and truth is it's hand maiden.

That's a statement of faith. Right? 'Cause you can't tell. You have to act it out to see if it's true. - Yeah. - And so you can't. even find out without, and that's so peculiar. You have to make the commitment a priory. - Yeah. - It's like a marriage. It's the same thing. It's like, well, is this the person for me? Well, that's the wrong question. How do I find out if this is the person for me?

By binding myself to them. Well, maybe the same thing's true of life. Right? You bind yourself to it. And the tighter you bind yourself to it, the more you find out what it is, and that's like a radical embrace. And it's a really radical embrace. That's the crucifix symbol. And more than that, because like I said, the full passion story isn't death. It isn't even unjust death. It isn't even unjust death.

and the crucifixion of the innocent, which is really getting pretty bad. It's unjust, torturous, innocent death. attendant upon betrayal and tyranny followed by hell. Well, that's a hell of a thing to radically embrace. It's like bring it on. - I think a lot of people put truth as the highest ideal, and think that can get to that ideal.

while living in a place of cynicism. and ultimately escape from life. and hiding from life, afraid of life. And it's is beautifully put that. love is the highest ideal to reach for. And truth is- - It's handmaiden. I thought about that for a long time, right? This hierarchy of ideal. And the thing about truth, that bitter truth, let's say, that cynical truth is. it can break the shackles of naivety.

And actually a burnt cynicism is a moral improvement. over a blind naivety, even though one is in some ways positive, but only because it's protected. And the other is bitter and dark, but still better. But you're not done at that point. You're just barely started. It's like you're cynical? You're not cynical enough. It's like how cynical are you? Are you I'm an Auschwitz prison guard level of cynical?

'Cause you have to go down pretty deep into the weeds. before you find that part of you, but you can find it if you want. And then you think, well, I wanna stop this. Well, that was the question you posed in some sense, you're obsessed with say what happened. on these mass scale catastrophes. in the communist countries. It's like, well, millions of people participated. So you could've, and maybe you would've enjoyed it. So what part of that is you?

And you can find it if you want. - Yeah. It's all there. The prisoner, the interrogator. - [Jordan] The Judas. (Lex laughing). Pontius pilot. - All of it. - All of it. - And it's all of it. is inside us. - Yeah. - And you just have to look and once you do, maybe eventually you can find the love. Jordan, you're an incredible human being. I'm deeply honored that you would talk to me. Thank you for being a truth seeker in this world, and thank you for the love.

- Hey, thanks for the invitation, man. - Thanks for listening to this conversation. with Jordan Peterson. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you with some words. from Friedrich Nietzsche. "You must have chaos within you. to give birth to a dancing star.". Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.