John Clarke: The Art of Fighting and the Pursuit of Excellence | Lex Fridman Podcast #143

the following is a conversation with. john clark he's a friend. a brazilian jiu jitsu black belt former. mma fighter. and at least in my opinion one of the. great ufc cornerman coaches to listen to. and also he's my current jiu jitsu coach. at broadway jiu-jitsu in south boston. he was once for a time a philosophy. major in college. and is now i would say a kind of. practicing philosopher. opinionated brilliant and someone i. always enjoy talking to.

even when especially when we disagree. which we do often he's definitely. someone i can see talking to many times. in this podcast. in fact he hosts a new podcast of his. own. called please allow me. quick mention of each sponsor followed. by some thoughts related to the episode. thank you to theragun the device i use. for post-workout muscle recovery. magic spoon carb keto friendly cereal. that i think is delicious.

eight sleep a mattress that cools itself. and gives me yet another reason to enjoy. sleep. and cash app the app i use to send money. to friends. please check out these sponsors in the. description to get a discount and to. support this podcast. as a side note let me say that martial. arts especially jiu jitsu and judo. have been a big part of my growth as a. human being so i think i will. talk to a few martial artists on. occasion on this podcast. i hope that is of interest to you i. won't talk to people who are simply.

great fighters or great athletes. but people who have a philosophy that i. find to be interesting and worth. exploring. even if i disagree with parts or most of. it. i like alternating between historians. and computer scientists. fighters and biologists and between. totally different worldviews. and personalities like elon musk and. michael malus. this world to me is fascinating. because of the diversity of weirdness. that is human civilization.

i love the weird and the brilliant and. hope you join me on the journey of. exploring both. if you don't like an episode skip it for. an ocd person like myself. sometimes not listening to a podcast. episode is an act of courage. it's like not finishing a book even. though you're 80 done. try it sometimes listen to ones you like. and don't listen to the ones you don't. like i know. it's profound advice if you enjoy this. thing. subscribe on youtube review it with five.

stars and apple podcast. follow on spotify support on patreon or. connect with me on twitter. and lex friedman and now here's my. conversation. with john clark you ready for this. i've been ready for this my whole life. all right i was thinking of doing a. kerouac style road trip across the. united states. you know after this whole covet thing. lifts you ever take a trip like that. i've done a handful of long distance. driving trips.

um up and down the east coast but also. from the west coast back to the east. coast and then returning to california. so i've definitely done my fair share of. driving. in this country do you have the longing. for the great american road trip. i think there are so many things that. i've been lucky enough to see in the. world. that i now at this point in my life. realize there are tons of things that i. need to see. here in this country and a road trip. could potentially be the best way. to see them i think to do it effectively.

you need. an amount of time where you can be as. leisurely as possible. there's no deadline and there's no i've. got to make it from chicago to st. louis by sundown to get to this place at. this time. i think you really need to be able to. take your time and. uh and kind of like let the road take. you. where you need to go it feels like you. need a mission though ultimately. like there's a reason you need to be in. san francisco that's like the kerouac. thing. you have to meet somebody somewhere kind. of loosely in a few weeks.

and then it's the as you struggle on. towards that mission. you meet weird characters that get in. your way but ultimately sort of. create an experience i think having a. loose deadline is good. but that's a beginning and an end point. and what i mean is i don't want to have. to be. all right we're leaving say boston on. sunday night. let's get to new york by monday morning. and then from new york we're going to go. to philly and we've got to be in philly. at 4. a.

vague beginning and end is fine but i. think having very strict. guidelines in between will rob you of. certain experiences along the way. if you have a time frame to get from. philly to indianapolis. and some awesome shit starts to happen. in philly do you really want to have to. cut it short because you got to be in. indianapolis by. sunup why do you have to be anywhere by. any time. for any reason really plans change plans. change. all the time exactly but if we're. talking about um having a mission.

or the type of road trip i just think it. would be best to have it. as loose and uh flexible as possible. i don't know you gotta make hard. deadlines. and then break them totally change the. plans disappoint people. break promises that's the way of life. somebody's waiting for you in st. louis and all of a sudden you you fell. in love with a biker. in new york i don't know i don't know. what you're up to i can appreciate that. um but on a trip like that i feel like.

a trip with deadlines is for a different. point in your life. and at this point in my life i don't. want any of the deadlines because it's. not about. meeting someone and disappointing them. in st louis it's about. me not disappointing myself you want to. have you want to have enough time. in what you're doing to make sure that. you get the full breadth of every. experience that you encounter. how would you fully experience a place. how would you. you know i i don't think i've actually. fully experienced boston like how if you. were showing up to.

to a city for a week on this road trip. what would you do. so i'm gonna answer that in two parts a. few years ago i had an opportunity to. move out of boston. and the thing that kept me here no. question about it was the fact that i. felt like i had a. um a contract with my students. and i did not i felt like a great many. of them took a leap of faith. uh by joining my gym and like you know. asking me to teach them what i know. and when i had an opportunity to leave. boston i thought of those people.

and i thought i want to fulfill my. obligation to them so because. i made a decision to stay here i then. that summer made a decision to endear. myself to the city of boston and i tried. to find lots and lots of different. things to do. i can tell you that the coolest thing. that i found to do in this city. is um the mfa. where they have like on friday nights. they'll have like different exhibits and. stuff. and they'll have like little beer carts. and food tents and you can go. do a painting class off in the on the. side. very cool night of things to do but in.

general. whenever i'm in a new city i try not to. pay attention to google and i try not to. do anything. that i find on a travel site the best. thing to do. is to walk out of your hotel or wherever. it is you're staying and find the most. normal looking bar have a drink and talk. to a bartender so. people the people the people and then. you can experience that town the way. that they. experience it even in a city where there. are tons of tourist attractions. locals probably visit the same tourist.

attractions when they have visitors come. from out of town. but you want to see how they view those. places and how they visit them. and you want to go to eat where they're. going to eat like. you know you're going to for the most. part. the north end is not a place where i. would take someone and say. hey this is boston's the pinnacle of. boston dining. because it's very touristy there are a. handful of really good restaurants there. but i want to know where the where the. i want to go to bogey's place i want to. know like the the down low spots where.

the hell is bogey's place it's like a. little steakhouse in the back of jm. curly's exactly. like a shitty bar yeah it's just a bar. with like bar food. but i think they're like um boston. it is in boston yeah it's like south. boston no it's in. um it's in the downtown area. like um i don't know what the. neighborhoods are called here honestly. because they call. they have an area called downtown boston. and i don't even know what the hell that. means. i think he's near the financial district. where's southie because i've heard about.

the southie. southeast south boston but is there is. there difference between south boston. and southie. no it's the same thing no but like you. know the mythical south. i think the mythical southie is uh. something that's. long gone now and the term now. actually is sobo oh no. yeah it's it's changed what who who took. over what. what's the you know the goodwill hunting. personality that's southie isn't it. strong accent those badass dudes i came. here right at the end.

of like what was south boston so when i. got. and my gym is in south boston the. neighborhood was just starting to change. so i think. as gentrification happened and they. started building more luxury. condominiums. they were buying all these old. businesses out all the mom and pop. businesses and i think. that kind of changed the the makeup of. the community and it wasn't only because. there was an. influx of new young people with. disposable income.

it's because there's an exodus of the. the older people who kind of grew up and. raised their families there because. they were being offered humongous sums. of money for their homes that they had. bought like in the late 70s and early. 80s. so that they could develop those areas. so you have a combination of the influx. of new people. in the exodus of the old and now you. just got this totally new neighborhood. in its place what do you love about. boston. is there a love still for boston. you certainly have the love of the thing.

that's gone as well. yeah i think i don't want to pinpoint. pin this on boston because it's. happening in all great cities. as these areas become gentrified what's. happening is the personality and the. character of the neighborhood is just. being run out. and i have nothing against people coming. in and making money and things like that. but. when you do it at the expense of the. culture the character and the. personality of the neighborhood. i mean you're kind of standing on the. shoulders of giants these are the people. that came here and built these areas up. uh it happens here in in boston it.

happens in all over new york. uh happens on the west coast so. what i love about boston is not nearly. as romantic as what it might have been. 15 years ago and what i used to love. about new york. what i love about boston is that um. it's walkable um the food scene. is on is on the rise here um. but i think you're you're hard-pressed. to find the charm. that people think of when they think of.

old boston and old new england city. see i see it differently people. sometimes criticize like mit. like for the thing that it is now but i. think it is. always like that i. tend to prefer to carry the flame. of the his of the greatness the greatest. moments of his history. and like sort of enjoy that the echoes. of that in the halls of mit in the same. way in boston you think about the. history. and that history lives on in the few.

individuals. like you can't just look around where. boston is now and be like what has. boston become. i think it was always carried by a. minority of individuals. i i think we kind of look back in. history and think like. times were greater in a certain kind of. dimension back then but. that's because we remember uh this is a. ridiculous. non-data-driven assertion of mine is we. remember just the. the the brightest stars of that history.

and so we romanticize it but i think if. you look around now. those special people are still living in. boston for which boston will be. remembered as a great city. in like 50 years i think you're probably. right but isn't there some sort of. theory about. the point that there's like a certain. age in your life where things resonate. differently to you like i think they've. done studies where. most people stop searching for new music. after age 19. most dads you see like wearing super old.

clothes like the. that's the style of the time period of. the last great part of their life. so like there's an evolution in in. people and it could also be the memories. of where they live. and when i was 17 of course my. neighborhood was the best then because i. was having the most fun. and we always kind of look at things. through uh that that tint i think. and you're right and i don't think. there's anything wrong with the way. cities are evolving now it's just not um. i i i prefer the time of like a mom and.

pop store. not a fabricated like uh gastropub that. could just be. like on a four-lane super highway on. your on your way out of epcot center. and it's actually owned by like some. conglomerate but there's still the. special places like i. this takes us back to the road trip is. um. maybe i tend to romanticize the. experiences of like the diners in the. middle of nowhere. what would you say makes for like. it feels like life is made up of these.

experiences. that are that maybe on paper seem. mundane. but are actually somehow give you a. chance. to pause and reflect on life with like. a certain kind of people whether like. really close friends or complete. strangers maybe alcohol is involved in. the middle of nowhere it seems like road. trip. facilitates that if you allow it to like. what do you think makes for those kind. of experience have you had any. i think in the context of a road trip i.

think it's like hyper localization. and i think it is um those. those experiences along the way. with people and the people that you're. with will color the experiences. differently depending. on the person the road trip you took was. uh with somebody else or along so. i've driven up and down the east coast. several times when i. drove from la to new york my friend was. on the run from the cops yeah so.

we were trying to get traffic tickets. yeah. yeah we were trying to get out of la. because um. he was going to have to go away for a. little while yeah so we drove from. la and we just you know we're young kids. we had no idea what we were doing. and we drove east and then you know we. had an unbelievable trip. mostly because we didn't really have a. destination we didn't really have a time. frame. thank goodness uh because he got. arrested again in pennsylvania. so we got kind of stuck there and then. um you know and then we we drove back to.

la when he got. out in pennsylvania um. but all the stops along the way were. kind of like. weird things like you have no money. right so you're finding that like. a little diamond in the rough place to. eat the diner you talk about like that. place. i i once was in where was i i think i. was in buenos aires and the guy that i. was with. he said i know this quaint little spot. around the corner. and i was young i was like 25 and i. thought the coolest thing in the world.

would be. to be such a citizen of the world that. you know these quaint little spots. around the corner in like all these. great cities like. i know where to get this great chicken. sandwich in argentina i know where to. get this great meal in costa rica. i know where to get this super local. like um egg in another country. i always thought that that was really. cool the ability to do that. anywhere in the world you get closer. with that guy. went out through the trip i found that. like so i took i took a trip across the. united states with a. with a guy friend of mine we had.

different goals i was searching for a. meeting in life and he was searching for. um. what's the politically correct way of. phrasing it but just. uh basically trying to sleep with every. kind of woman that this world. has to offer what's the difference. between those two things well i guess. the different kinds of meanings i i mean. i just. i i still think that you can't find. meaning. between a woman's legs i suppose uh that. maybe they tried all of them.

but there was a tension there we grew. closer with those experiences. but we've gotten in fights you know. there was a lot of like. literal almost fights and then we were. close and there was like. silences but then we were like brothers. and this whole weird. journey of friendship that we went on i. think anytime you. spend that much time in uh like a small. space with another person. you're gonna have the the different. parts of the relationship will manifest. themselves you'll have the periods of.

closeness. you'll have the periods of vulnerability. where it's like maybe you're driving. through denver and it's three in the. morning and you talk about something you. might not have otherwise talked about. you'll have the periods where you don't. want to see that motherfucker ever again. right he didn't and depending could be. because of anything. yeah um but the guy that i drove twice. with. we are still we're still in contact. we're still buddies. we we have very different goals also. um but at that point in our lives we. were not we never even contemplated the.

meaning of life. we were about probably more to the point. of the friend that you drove with. we were more about racking up. experiences whatever they were right. i want to be able to retell this hmm. stories. yeah i want to be able to retell this. and it's got to sound cool. like i don't want to retell a story. about yeah and then we drove through. alabama and they've got a lovely library. and i checked out this book and you know. i'm not interested in retelling that. do you remember any um well this is a. kids show. do you remember any stories that the. kids would enjoy from those.

times they were profound in some kind of. way. there were some impactful moments. on the beginning of our road trip where. we had no money and as a couple of kids. who knew nothing. we literally had to we stopped in vegas. and we went to circus circus. at the time they had three dollar. blackjack and we had like 12 bucks and. my buddy was a kind of a degenerate. gambler so he knew what was up i was. just like kind of stuffing chips in my. pockets making sure we could pay for the. gas. um and just being at a point which is.

like a starting line and. like we drove from la to vegas which is. only about four hours. and being at the starting line and. realizing like we may not even like. get off the starting line here and if we. don't what are we doing we're going to. be two guys stuck in vegas with no money. we can't go west because you're going to. get pinched. we have no money to go east what the. hell are we going to do we're going to. wind up in vegas. so you know that that was kind of a. profound thing where you just. it's a turning it potentially could have. been a turning point in our lives. had we not made enough money to to.

continue going east. that's the beautiful thing about road. trips when you're broke it's like. in retrospect everything turned out fine. but. you're facing the complete darkness the. uncertainty of the possibilities laid. before you. and like i don't know if you were. confident at that time but like. i was really full of self-doubt like. just like all i could see is all the. trajectories where you just screw up. your life like what am i doing with my. life i'm.

a failure like all these dreams i've had. i've never realized i'm a complete piece. of shit all those kinds of i had no. concept of consequence i i like i was. i probably had toxoplasmosis i had. literally no concept of consequence. immediate gratification was all i cared. about. oh so existentialist yeah it did not it. did not. even enter my mind at in my like early. 20s. that anything that i was doing at that. point could reverberate for the rest of. my life. i think part of me didn't even think i'd.

make it this far and so. i was not interested in like the long. play i remember thinking like why should. i be acting now. in a way that might impact a point in my. life i never reach. and yet now you are a man. who searches for meaning in life at. least. i would say to put another way you have. um. you think deeply about this world and. in a philosophical context while also. appreciating. the violence of hurting other.

uh friends of yours right on a regular. basis so what. why do you think i mean maybe there's a. broader question there but. also a personal question it seems that. people who fight for prolonged. periods of time like jiu jitsu people. mixed martial arts people. even military folks become overtime. philosophers. what what is that is that is there a. parallel between.

fighting and violence and the. philosophical depth with which you now. have a. from the starting point of being the. full existentialist of like. just living in the moment to like being. uh introspective. uh human now i would say to that. being a a soldier or a warrior. uh hundreds of years ago is probably. what started the marriage between. martial arts and. philosophy if you're constantly under. someone else's charge and you're told to.

go out and walk in a line. and you know overtake some germanic. tribe somewhere. and that happens all the time um. your job is being a soldier there's on. any given day you might not come home. so i think that you have to start your. day by thinking deeply about. how you've lived to that point and the. people that are living in and around you. and how you've treated them and i think. that probably is what started the. marriage of. being kind of like a philosophical.

martial artist you've got to really like. on a daily basis take stock of of what's. going on around you. and inside you because we all suffer. with this kind of. uh idea if today's my last day. did i do it right and we don't really do. it so much nowadays because we're so. comfortable. but if we're being marched out to war. every day i think you'd see people live. a little bit differently. uh you know and you that you treat the. people around you a little bit. differently. do you think there's echoes of that in.

just even the sport. of uh like grappling and jiu jitsu where. you're facing your own mortality we. don't really think of it that way but. to be honest i think that a lot of. people that train in a martial art. in contemporary society i don't consider. them all martial artists. i think just because you train a martial. art does not mean you're a martial. artist there are so many people that. use martial arts as a form of exercise. and like this little piece of. um self-concept they use.

martial arts as a tagline in their. instagram bio. and it's really a form of exercise it's. something they do it's not something. they are. and i think there's a big difference. there there's a bunch of stuff mixed up. in there because the instagram thing. is something you do for. it's also it could be something you are. for display versus who. you are in the private moments of. searching and thinking and struggling. and all that kind of stuff instagram is. a surface layer. that much of modern society uh.

operates in which is really problematic. because there's that gap. between the person you show to the world. and the person you are in private life. and if you make. majority of your project of the human. project of your sort of. few years on this earth the optimization. of the. public instagram profile then you never. develop this. private person but it does seem that if. you do jujitsu long enough it's very. difficult not to fall into like.

this has become a personal journey an. intellectual journey. because like if you get your ass kicked. thousands of times there's a certain. point. to where that maybe it's like a defense. mechanism but that turns. into some kind of deeply profound. introspective experience versus like. exercise yeah. so let me let me go back first and. address the instagram point which. i think there's a difference between. people who.

whose instagram is intrinsically tied to. their profession. and they have to put a specific profile. out there and i think in general. people who truthfully are their. businesses tied to their instagram. profile. i want to exclude them i think that most. people. instagram is how they want to be seen. and. it's not always congruent with who you. are but i think. there is a level of dishonesty there. yeah. like this is how i want people to see me.

i'm gonna put all this stuff in my. instagram bio but. that's really not me and when you do. that. um i think it's it's a little. disingenuous and you're right there's. not. you're never really going to marry those. two things together and it gets tough. let me uh sorry to interrupt let me push. back on something that's a good time to. address. uh the the many flaws of the great and. powerful john clark okay uh. le le let's let's go there because it's. interesting.

you strive so hard for excellence. in your life and for extreme confidence. that you are visibly and physically off. put by people who are. who have not achieved competence. do you think we should be nicer. to the people who are those early like. you mentioned. a person who first picks up an art picks. up is. becomes vegan starts throwing crossfit.

start doing jiu jitsu for the first time. and create that as their you know. they're they're struggling through this. like. who am i and they're really overly proud. and it's kind of ridiculous. and you and your wise chair i've seen. seen many battles. yeah that you see the ridiculousness of. that. i tend to i'm learning. to give those folks not to mock them. and and to sort of give them a chance to. do their ridiculousness.

because i think i was that too let me. first clarify. i want to be clear about what you mean. when you say a level of competence. now i i've never won a world. championship i've never. you know there are plenty of things in. my life where i've not. achieved what um. most people would consider to be the. penultimate. level of success now that's. accomplishments. it's accomplishments it's ribbons it's. things like that and it's not that those. things don't mean anything to me and the.

fact that i haven't in some. arenas is uh is something that. i want to change which is we can talk. about that in a second but. i think that there's a difference. between the very eager. noob of whatever it is they're doing. who does the thing so that they can. signal they do the thing that's the. person i have less respect for. so we know each other primarily through. jiu jitsu look at a jiu jitsu tournament.

there's this there's this idea that. people espouse online. i respect anyone with the guts to get on. the mat and put it on the line and sign. up for a tournament. that is the biggest load of shit. i have ever heard this is great do you. know do you know how easy it is. for you to put your name on something. and pay the registration fee and walk in. there. that's not the hard part that's the. easiest part. i don't care if you lose your first. match but i respect the person.

who signs up for the tournament. registers for the tournament. goes on a diet loses weight the right. way trains their ass off. and does the things properly and then. goes on the mat. the person who simply signs their name. on the registration form. and jumps on the mat if they haven't. done these other things they actually. have nothing to lose. because what they've done is they've. stepped onto the mat in the ring in the. cage. with a bucket full of excuses yeah sure. you signed up. but when you but you you're not really. vulnerable because.

you didn't run you didn't do this you. didn't do all the things you're supposed. to do. the person who eliminates every possible. excuse. and then steps on the mat and gets their. ass kicked in the first round. i have so much more respect for that. person than the person who does nothing. and maybe unnatural ability wins a. couple of matches. and then you know writes on facebook on. how i lost to the eventual champion. that's worth zero that's worth zero and. in that process. what did you learn about yourself you. learned about yourself.

that you've got a natural level of. aptitude for whatever this activity is. that you're doing. but you didn't actually learn how to. maximize it through. training and through dedication and. through all these other things uh. i'm i'm an incredibly interested. novice musician i love i like to play. bass but i don't put that on anything. and you know i stink at it i would. really love to be sick at it. i'm currently not but like i'm not. running around. you know talking about entering you know.

any of those other things like i i do it. it's for myself and i want to i want to. reach a level of competence in that. so the person that you have respect for. the person who takes it fully. seriously takes takes the effort fully. seriously so for base that would be. that you agree with yourself that you're. going to perform live and just in your. own private moments your private. thoughts. you're not going to give yourself an. excuse out like i'm just going to have. fun it's just a nice experience you're.

going to. you're going to think i'm going to try. to be the best possible bass player. given. given everything that's going on in my. life but i'm going to do my. like actually and put it all on the line. and if i. fail that it that's not because i didn't. try. it's because i'm a failure exactly. and then and then sit in that sick. feeling of like. i'm a failure but isn't that an. important thing to know absolutely. but there there's a there's a.

that's like the best thing it could be. but sometimes it's fun to lose. yourself in the in the in the bragging. in the. yeah in the lesser ways of life and i. think. i'm careful not to uh because too many. people in my life. when i brought them with like a little. candle of a fire of a dream. they would just go like you know they. would just blow that. fire out uh that they would dismiss me.

because they see. like you know i would say i said i've. said a lot of ridiculous stuff but the. one. you know i've always dreamed about uh. like putting. like i always dreamed of having. this world full of robots and you know. every time i would. uh bring these ideas up they'll be shut. down by the different people by my. parents but. you know uh you know then you need to. first. get to get an education you need to. succeed in these dimensions.

in notice you do all these things you. have to get good grades you have to. like there's all this stuff that it's. indirect. or direct ways of blowing out that. little ridiculous dream. that you present and it's like. you know i remember sort of bringing up. i don't know um things like. becoming a state champion and wrestling. right. it's a it's a weird dance because of. course the coaches will tell.

they'll kind of dismiss that it's like. okay. okay uh but at the same time it feels. like in those early days. you have to preserve that little little. fire that's like. johnny i don't know if you know who that. is as a designer at apple he was a chief. designer he's behind. most iphone all that stuff and he he. always talked about that he wouldn't. bring. his ideas to steve jobs until they were. matured because he would always shit on. them. uh he would he wanted them to like. little as little babies like live for a. little bit.

before they get completely shut down and. i always think about that when i see a. beginner sort of bragging on instagram. you have to be careful let them play. with that little dream. you know are you playing with a little. dream that you're nurturing and you're. trying to take that little flame and. you're trying to create. a a roaring blaze with it or are you. playing with the idea of it. and behind behind that there's no. substance. it's hard to know the difference that's. what i struggle with is it i don't think. it necessarily is certainly you're wrong. and when i say instagram i don't want to.

impugn a bunch of strangers but i have a. gym with a lot of members. and and i can tell you that the number. of years i've been in the gym. when someone comes to me and says this. is my goal i don't i don't tell them yes. or no. in general but i know i can tell by the. way they say it to me. i can thin slice it i've seen the look. on people's faces. and when people start to like say they. want to do x y and z. i know right off the bat this person is. either going to put an effort in or. they're not going to put an effort in. so to me it's about the effort behind.

that. if you're busting your ass and you're a. newt at something and you're brand new. but you're working really hard and you. have a series of like moderate. successes in that like that's the guy i. want to champion. because that persistence and that grit. over time those successes will. no longer be moderate they'll be huge. but the person who's having moderate. success by doing nothing. chances are they'll never learn to put. that work in and the successes will. never grow. you have an admiration for mike tyson i.

love him. i'm just gonna let that sit for a brief. moment um. why i think there's a combination of. factors one is like. the timeliness of his career and like. the age i was. when he like came to prominence um. the raw brutal violence. and the raw brutal honesty when he. speaks. i think it's easy for people to hear him. or see his life. and cast him aside as some simeonesque.

uh. like just cretin scourge on society but. when you hear him speak like this is not. a guy who's unintelligent. this is a guy who knows himself better. than probably most of us know. ourselves it's disarming and uh. you know that's a humongous part of my. admiration for him who is mike tyson. because you there's it feels like. there's similarities between him and you. there's a it feels like there's a.

violent person. in there but also really kind person and. they're all like living together in a. little house and you're the same there's. a thoughtful person. but there's also a scary violent person. and they're like having a picnic. they're having a picnic i think there. are dialectical tensions in everyone. these like. opposing forces yeah that are constantly. pulling at you. and at different points in your life. like it's sliding scale. and i think that uh certainly when i was.

a younger person. there was a lot more manifestation of. the violence and a lot less of the. kindness. um people who were not as close to me. probably saw more of the violent side. only the very close people to me saw. like. what would pass for the kind side and. now that's sliding in the other. direction. uh and i i worry actually sometimes that. there could be a situation where i need. that old version of me. and he's getting further and further. away and i can't call him up if i need.

him. and that that concerns me to it to a. certain degree. the sad aging warrior seeing his greater. self paid away. like but you still compete is that that. person return it seems like for mike. tyson that person returned. at the prospect of competition it. returns. but i've learned i've learned better how. to. manifest it in competition in terms of. like the effects that that type of. emotion has on you physically in the. middle of a competition.

so i've better learn how to utilize that. energy. but i think another side effect of this. is like having a gym where you're. a bigger guy and you're the head. instructor you can't be as mean and. violent as you once were. because you're also now trying to run a. business and. you spend so long so many so many years. trying not to be mean and. to you know soften your your technique a. little bit. that that all of a sudden just becomes. who you are and and i don't necessarily. like that so i've been trying to reclaim. that a little bit.

uh on the mat but. i think in competition. there's there has to be. an athlete really wants to score the. points. a fighter really wants to incapacitate. you and put you in a position where they. can. do their own bidding and the result in a. jiu jitsu match might just still be two. points. but the motivations are very very. different what do you make of. tyson and joe rogan saying that he was.

aroused by violence do you think that's. insane do you think that's deeply honest. for him and do you think that rings true. for. many of us others who practices in. different degrees. i don't i can't speak for a lot of. people and i think that. it's was a brutally honest statement by. him and i think it's something that. even if a lot of people feel it they're. not that comfortable admitting it or. saying it. yeah but i think like there's. there is great joy in.

like landing a flush right hand on. someone's jaw. and then watching them crumble you don't. even feel it you ever play baseball as a. kid. you can hit a bass hit off the end of. the bat and it will sting your hands. because of the way that you hit it you. can hit a home run. and you won't feel anything and it'll. just feel so good in your hands and. that's i think that like. one of the the joys of uh physical. contact when you do it the right way. and that goes for all physical contact. when you do it the right way.

the physical pleasure you can derive. from it and the mental. pleasure it's uh it's unparalleled. but that's different let me draw a. distinction i'm not. i've had the fortune of being a wrestler. and i would draw a distinction between a. very well executed and competition. double leg single leg takedown or a pin. there's some as an ocd person there's. something so.

comforting about a well-executed pin. because it's like. two seconds and it's just like. everything is flush and nice and it. like it's all clean and i mean okay this. ocd person who likes to align. so it's just beautiful okay that's good. technique. wrestling also provides you. maybe more than other sports the feeling. of. dominating another human yes of breaking. no. not just of them being very cocky.

and very powerful you feel this power of. another human being. and then you breaking them and like. i'm not as honest as mike tyson but. that's. that uh uh i don't think. i've ever sort of looked in the mirror. and said. like that that was in i enjoyed that. aspect of it. but it certainly seems like you chased. that. so when i was a wrestler in high school. um.

i lost so many matches because of over. aggressiveness um like you know i would. pick the top position and let you stand. just so that i could do a matt return. and i wasn't trying to return you to the. mat i was actually trying to like drive. you. through the mat and through the ground. like i took like i. it gave me joy to do that yeah like it. wasn't like i was trying to. you know just return you to the mat so. that it could pin you. that what you just talked about like the. the dominating another person i used to. look at that as.

you've got someone who in theory is. equally trained and equally skilled as. you. are and you're you're absolutely out. there totally dominating them. there's joy in that you could get in an. mma fight and you could. take someone down and you can mount them. and. all that feels great but when you start. raining down the punches on their face. from mount and like dropping elbows and. stuff like there's another level of. satisfaction there. and it's it's tough to describe and i. don't think that it's. everyone uh is made for it when.

i was a i think when i was a senior in. high school my wrestling coach said look. you've got to stop with all this crazy. aggressive. wrestling like they try to turn me into. a technician. and and it and it did work to a degree. and it was a humongous shift for me. in terms of success but it wasn't the. same level of. enjoyment out of it um like. i mean i got disqualified from new. england because my coach said crossface. and i cross-faced and he said harder. and i basically wound up and blasted a.

kid in the face and his nose got you. know busted everywhere. but i didn't think not to do it because. that felt good. it felt good to cross-face him like that. i was that was a lot of like. that's a weird american warrior ethos. that i've. picked up but i also have them either. the russian the setia brothers that. don't see it. don't see it as that they they don't get. draw. they think that there is a tension. between the art.

of the martial art and the violence of. the martial arts. i agree it's a poetic way i could put it. but they're not so. fascinated with this dan gable. dominating another human. they think of the effortless the. effortlessness. of the technique and your mastery of the. art is exhibited in its effortlessness. how much you lose yourself in the moment. and the timing that just the beauty of a. timing. like there's much more like one example.

in judo but also in wrestling. you can look at the foot sweep wrestlers. in america and even judo players in. america. much of the world don't admire the. beauty of the foot sweep. but a well-timed foot sweep which is a. way to sort of off balance to find the. right timing to just. effortlessly uh change the tape. turn the tables of uh dominate your. opponent. is is seen as the highest form of. mastery in. in russian wrestling and in case of.

judos and in japanese judo. it's interesting i'm not sure i'm not. sure what what that tension is about. i think it actually takes me back to i. don't know if you listen to uh dan carl. in hardcore history. and genghis khan if you've ever i've. read a great. great book on jenga's god yeah i'm so. i'm still trying to adjust. most of my life said genghis khan but. the right pronunciation is uh. actually changus khan.

there's a tension there we kind of think. i don't know we i kind of thought as. genghis khan as a ultra violent. a leader of ultra violent men but. another view another way to see them is. the. people who warriors that. valued extreme competence and mastery of. the. art of uh fighting with weapons with.

bows with the. horse riding all that kind of stuff and. i'm not sure exactly. where to place them on my sort of. thinking about. violence in in our human history. i think in the context of like combat. sports. i think there's a difference between an. athlete winning a contest. under a certain set of rules and a. fighter winning a fight. under those exact same rules there's a. different approach to it. and i don't think one is any better than.

the other um. like in mma i think a great example. would be. george st pierre george st pierre is a. tremendous. it's a tremendous athlete and he. considers himself to be a martial artist. first. he's trying to win an athletic. competition like. nick diaz is trying to bust your ass. yeah right there's a different. approach to it and yes they've had. different results at the highest level. of competition. but it's difficult to attribute the. difference in results. just to their approach to the sport.

because they're different human beings. with different abilities and different. different. uh physical attributes um. the saito brothers have that luxury of. being able to. talk about the beauty of a perfectly. timed slide by. right there are other wrestlers that. will never be able to pull that off. and therefore they have to pursue other. ways to defeat someone and maybe it is. the dan gable. breaking a man's spirit by outworking. him type thing which. is beautiful in its own way uh but. we we we tend to self-select the ways in.

which we're able to be successful. and then kind of take a deep dive into. that what do you think is more beautiful. brute force or. effortless execution. of uh technique that dominates another. human. i think it's a subjective thing based on. what skills you perceive yourself to. have. i'm never i've never been a slick uh. super. athletic dexterous competitor in.

anything. and i've always been more of an i've got. to outwork you i've got to outgrind you. i gotta help mean you. and so because i've lived that i tend to. see the beauty in that more because i. have a perceptual awareness. that i don't have for the people who. have the luxury of being very slick and. athletic and. and using beautiful technique now that. said there's a phenomenal. little video the other day i sent to a. friend. of a compilation of foot sweeps by leota.

machida. in mma and they're so beautiful and. they're so awesome. and it's not that i don't have an. appreciation for those. but i can't emulate those because i lack. the physical. ability to do that whereas i. i at least have a chance to emulate some. of the people who. do it through grit and throughout. working people. but i would love to return to genghis. khan. and get your thoughts about like i have. so many mixed feelings. about whether he.

is evil or not whether. the violence that he brought to the. world had. ultimately the fact that he had maybe. kind of uh like dan carlin describes. cleansed. the landscape it's like a reset for the. world through violence. had ultimately. a progressive effect on human. civilization.

even though in the short term it led to. massive you could say suffering. i don't know what to make of that man. what uh what are your thoughts on. jenkins gone. um i think it's always difficult to look. at a historical figure. and their actions of their time through. a modern day lens. because it's very it's easy for us to um. kind of you know impugn their. achievements and the things that they. did. and say oh well you know what he did was.

wrong. well of course that can be true but a. lot of times. we don't actually have any real good. context or concept of. the the times they were living in and. what really was deemed wrong and what. really wasn't we're looking at it. through a very cushy modern lens. that being said from what i've read. about genghis khan. uh yeah he was a violent dude but also. he gave you an option. he when he when he got to a village he. said look. i'm gonna we're gonna you have a choice. you can come with us.

or you can run and you know he gave them. an option to join. uh his legion of fighters who he took. very good care of you know he was the. the first military leader uh to pay. his soldiers families when they died. and he did that based on the the booty. that they got when they. raided a village he took that money he. took his share and they divided that up. amongst the soldiers and then the. soldiers families. i think he also is credited with uh.

first like horseback male roots or. something like that right isn't he the. godfather of the modern postal system. or something something like that yeah. he's the bernie sanders of the uh. uh the mongol empire i do think the. the offering of surrender is an. interesting one because um. it's interesting like as a thought. experiment whether you would sacrifice. your way of. like the pride of nations or the. nationalism pride of your country.

whether you're willing to give that up. uh for uh you know to survive. it depends on who depends on you if you. have a. if you have a family and like young kids. and stuff like that i think your. your obligation is primarily to them and. therefore. surrender has to be something that you. consider in that in that moment in time. so that you can uh take care of those. people if you're a man alone and you've. got like all these principles and all. this other stuff and you just don't. you're not down with what genghis khan.

is doing and what he's selling. yeah try and escape do your thing and. just know that you know what wait's on. the other side of that for you. potentially. but i think if there's someone else out. there that depends on you. your obligation should be to them it. feels like. historically people valued principles. more than life. in this weight of like what do i value. more the principles i hold versus. survival. it seems that now we don't value. principles as much.

your principles could be also religion. it could be your values whatever. we're okay sort of sacrificing those for. to preserve our survival and that. applies in all forms like. actual survival or like on. social media like preserving your. reputation all those kinds of things. it seems like we. especially in america value individual. life that death is somehow a really bad. thing.

as opposed to saying sacrificing your. principles is a very bad thing and. everybody dies. and it's okay to die as what's horrible. is to sacrifice your principles of who. you are. just to live another day i think a big. problem is people don't really even know. what their principles are anymore. people you know um social media. and just the way that we live nowadays. where we're separated from the human. contact like this like we're not.

you're not contacting people in a. community anymore you're not. whether you're religious or not like. you're not you're not congregating at a. church. you're not part of a parish like you. would be like in you know down south. you're not part of that community. anymore and so. it's difficult to figure out what your. principles and values are because you're. constantly jumping from one bucket to. the next. uh online and you don't get a lot of. like. direct like reasonable feedback from.

people. you just get dipshit feedback like oh. you don't believe this well you're a. jerk. i think the hard thing currently is. having the integrity and character to. stick by principles one under. i don't want to equate murder of in the. genghis khan times. to uh social media cancer culture. but it certainly doesn't feel good when. people are attacking on social media. and it does take a lot of integrity to. uh. without anger without emotion without.

without being without mocking others or. attacking others unfairly. standing by the ideas you hold. or in another way. standing by your friends standing by. this. little group like loyalty of. the people that you know are good people. i find that uh in in cancer culture one. of the sad things. is whenever somebody gets quote unquote. cancelled. everybody just gets all their friends.

become really quiet. and don't defend them or worse. i mean quiet is at least understandable. they kind of. signal that they throw them under the. bus i guess. uh is one way to put it and that that's. something i think about. a lot because from coming for me it's. like. i i hold an ethic i don't know if others. hold this ethic maybe it's. this like russian mobster ethic of like.

you should help your friends bury the. body. you shouldn't criticize your friends for. committing the murder. like there are certain levels of like. you know. yeah you have that discussion after you. bury the body. that like maybe you shouldn't have done. that murder thing right. uh i don't know you know i understand. that that's a problematic. um what's the terminology. that's a problematic ethical framework. within which to operate but. at the same time it feels like what else.

do we have in this world except. the brotherhood the sisterhood the love. we have for a very small community. but perhaps that's the wrong way of. thinking perhaps the 21st century would. be. defined uh by the dissipation of this. community of this loyalty concept. no we're all just individuals i think. you're right and i think you have to. have some sort of core. framework of principles and beliefs that. you operate on. and i think when i was what i was. referencing is a little bit. different and but to speak to your point. you you need a framework.

um of core principles. on which you can then base a lot of your. other decisions like i believe. these three things to be true whatever. they are and that will help inform other. decisions you make in your life. as far as how you treat your friends. i've got i've got probably three friends. that. if they called me right now and said. let's bury the body sorry lex i gotta go. there are other people in my life that. if they said uh hey we've got to go bury.

the body. i would say who is this. you know yeah so i think it it depends. on the relationship. i want that's a good it's a really good. measure i would love to have. i would love that to be in your profile. people put like pronouns. i would love to put like uh honestly. like objectively not self-report but. objective. how many people in your life if they. committed murder you would not ask any. questions and you would help them.

hide the body right like i would love to. know that number for people yeah. and and i think it's a weird thing too. because you think right away like okay. it must be the group of people that are. the closest to you that's who you're. first thinking of right. but obviously for like my best friend i. would do it no question about it. but i've got other people that are close. to me that. are close to me in other ways and i. probably wouldn't do that only because i. don't think they do it for me. yeah and and that is a consideration um. so i guess is the principle there then.

that. you do for your friends what you think. they would do for you is that the. underlying principle. or do you just have a blind loyalty to. you know. people in your life for different. reasons i got people that are not on my. inner circle. that i probably wouldn't help change a. tire at two in the morning if they were. on the highway but if they called me and. said hey we got to bury the body. i might show up for that it's just these. weird different connections yeah. it's fascinating yeah i have uh close. friends that like. i probably exactly the tire is a good. example would be like can't you find. somebody else to do this.

i think part of that is just this leap. of faith into like giving yourself. to the other person that. uh creates a deep connection that makes. life. fulfilling like meaningful. that doesn't exist if you don't take. that leap i mean it's not about the. murder we're sort of focusing. i think that's a i think you have to uh. what does it cross that bridge when you. get there i'm not exactly sure this is.

just a thought experiment. but it's it's i think about that a lot. especially these covet times. and as like people become more and more. isolated and separated from each other. like how important is it to have those. deep deep connections to other humans. i think especially like what you're. talking about there have you ever seen. the movie the town. there's a great line in the movie where. one of the main characters walks into. his friend's house. and he says i need your help. we're going to go hurt some people and. you can never ask me about it again.

and the friend looks up and he says. whose car we taking. that that is the type of person you need. in your life and the people. like there are people that will walk. through that door and say that to you. and you drop everything you're doing. and then there's the people that walk. through your door and you're like you. know what i got a hot pocket in the. microwave. i'm a little bit i'm a little bit tied. up right now but i'd love to help you. out but. you know i don't want to do that and you. don't have that that deep connection. with those people. you mentioned uh some principles that. you've uh.

changed your mind on is there do you. want to go there. is there some interesting principles and. the process of changing that uh. is useful to talk about i can't really. cite a specific thing. except that understanding that. the principles that you have at. different points in your life can change. and it's okay to change them without. being a total pussy and being bullied by. other people. into thinking what you thought was wrong. if you come to these conclusions. of your own volition and you decide to.

change them that's great and it can be. really it can be really liberating it's. really liberating to have an idea that. you hold. so true to your your core. belief system and then to actually have. someone change your mind for you and be. okay with it. as opposed to being like no i gotta die. with this. i gotta die with this it's really. liberating there are definitely our. ideas you wanna die on that hill and. no one's ever gonna change your mind but. it's really. liberating to be confident enough to say.

change my mind i'm lucky enough to have. some smart motherfuckers around me. who can tell me listen you're being a. total dipshit. like let's let's rethink this or like i. have one friend who does the five. wise all the time and he loves backing. me into a corner and. what's the five wise you just like when. someone makes a statement about. something. to really get to the core issue they say. if you ask. why five times make a statement well why. is that. and you answer that well why and you.

phrase the y's differently obviously but. then you get to the core they say five. times you can get to the core of the. issue. and uh that's a challenging thing but i. find later in life. it's so liberating for me to be. confident enough to be like. man was i fucking way off the mark on. this. and have my mind changed and be able to. say that to others that i was wrong. totally that ability and i never used to. have that. and it's it feels real good. and there's a hunger for that too um.

yeah if you're you're so right actually. on a personal level it feels very good. exactly as you said it's liberating. because you're free to then think. as opposed to defend yeah. without thinking yeah you get so sick of. defending the same thing. over and over and over and you start to. think about it. and it's like well i i would really like. to evolve my thought process here and. when you're constantly defending. you know one point it's difficult to let.

other ideas in. you you you discount the possibility. that you can have your mind change when. you're constantly on the defense like. you have to have a crack in. in the front line in order to let a new. idea come in and possibly flourish. and maybe the new idea doesn't even. prove your current belief system to be. wrong. but maybe it's like the the water to a. seed and it grows and now it's something. even bigger and better. yeah and you can you can start to work. with that instead. and it's a it's a tough thing because. i'm a stubborn fuck and it's.

very difficult for me it was. historically to say. i was wrong about this one or i messed. this one up or. yeah i wish i could have that one back. there's a public figure for me thing too. which there is there's a difference. between changing your mind with a small. circle of friends. and changing your mind publicly about. something. but it has equal it one echoes the other. it. is equally liberating but people um. people will not make that change easy uh.

but it doesn't matter. that's that's the point it doesn't. i think it's ultimately liberating as a. human being public figure or not to uh. to think deeply about this world and uh. to keep changing. which is like i i think there's a deep. hunger for that in like political. discourse. that people are so tribal currently. about politics. that they want to see somebody who says. you know what i changed my mind on this.

right and and then keep changing their. mind and keep asking questions keep. showing that they're open-minded all. that kind of stuff but. you want someone in a position of. political power. to change their mind because they. realize that there might be a better way. not because they realize that by. changing their mind they're going to get. a new demographic to vote for them. that's transparent as shit nobody wants. to see that right like. that's right that's a person who can't. separate their. their their position from their people. they're supposed to be helping yeah and. you can usually smell that that's. uh we're just talking uh offline about.

uh. there's something about hillary clinton. where she talked about. changing her mind on gay marriage yeah. that it felt. like this is a political calculation. versus like. really deeply thinking about like what. you know what things do we do in this. world that violate. basic human rights like really thinking. about deeply and. you know of course politicians are. calculating there's but you can see it.

you. this is the thing that's why i like um. as on the human level there's like. political policies but there's also. humans and i've always liked bernie. sanders for example. i don't know not the later perhaps. bernie sanders but i used to listen to. him back in the day. and never it felt that people might. disagree with me but it. it felt like there was a real human. struggling with ideas. whatever agree with him or not it felt. like he wasn't doing political. calculation he was just a human. he couldn't be further away from my.

political ideals. but also like there's an obvious. authenticity. to his passion for what he's saying that. is not present in other candidates. and you could see it all these people. that have been in politics forever like. from. all the way back when hillary was a. lawyer in the 70s there's a couple of. shots of her in the courtroom in the 70s. though. she's looking all right she's got those. big glasses on. yeah kind of a little bit of a nerdy. babe back in the day. [Laughter].

wow john clark says hillary clinton was. a baby back in the day 73 hinton clinton. yeah. that's an interesting question about. authenticity and politicians do you. think. like uh hillary clinton just the. clintons in general are a good example. that. why do you think they become over time. so inauthentic. is it the system that changes them is it. their own hunger for power. is it uh what is it or they or were they. always inauthentic. well first i'd like to say that i don't.

know if you know this but i come from a. bit of a political dynasty myself. uh i was on the student government. several times in high school and my dad. won um the runoff in a special election. in bradenton beach florida i think. there's like 700 people there. so so your dad got you the job yeah. we're basically. a lot of people compare us to the. kennedys my guess with the politicians. is that. and you can you can see it now as we're. becoming more like cognizant as people.

to the political process. i think the process corrupts people and. i think that. i don't know the ins and outs of it i've. listened to people who are far more. educated on it than me and i. i'm unprepared to cite any of their. points. i think you can see it a little bit in. dan crenshaw can i say this. yeah so i like him i i really liked. dan especially like a year year and a. half ago he seemed. very level-headed it's clear to me now. that as he panders more and more to the. right it's because he's setting himself.

up. for a presidential run it's clear that. that's happening. and he just doesn't seem like the same. authentic ideals. oriented guy that he did a year and a. half ago. now i could be wrong on that it could be. way off but i think that. you can take someone as honest as you. want to. when you start them on that path to the. presidency. you become so unbelievably beholden. to so many people and entities along the. way. that by the time you get to the the.

final destination the oval office all. you're doing is paying back the favors. that got you there and you never get to. serve the people you're supposed to. serve. your your primary focus is on your. office and not on the people that you're. supposed to be helping. i think that that's a humongous problem. and like we could talk all about. campaign finance reform in the two-party. system but at the end of the day. the people who are running for political. posts. they're working to keep a job they're. not working to improve the lives of the.

constituents which is different. a long long time ago like a lot of. politicians like those were like. part-time jobs. you know and they were they held other. posts and you know out west they were. ranchers by day. and sheriff by night whatever the case. might be but now. you have such a cushy path for the rest. of your life that the goal is to just be. a politician yeah not do the things that. you think a politician is supposed to do. and that's a problem by the way i'll. talk to dan on this. box it's funny i i like.

the version of him from a year ago and i. haven't been really paying attention so. i'll be. i'll actually pay more attention now and. ask him that exact question like how do. you prevent. yourself from changing becoming what the. the clintons became. i tend to believe like there's. conspiratorial stuff about clinton's and. all these politicians that tend to. believe that they were actually. good thoughtful people back in the day. at some point and the system changes. them. on the it's not even the system. there's something about just the process. of campaigning.

i just think it wears you down to where. if you look at the percentage of time. you spend on the kinds of conversations. you have. it's like one you do these speeches. which you repeat the same thing over and. over and over it beats. the uh the process of thinking you just. exhaust your brain to where you're not. thinking anymore you're just repeating. it's very. right it's exceptionally difficult to. keep making speech after speech. after speech saying the same thing over. and over and over again and at the same.

time. thinking deeply and changing your mind. and learning and then also the. pandering to financial like having phone. calls like. fundraising all those kinds of things. that's what they do now they spend most. of their time fundraising they're not. worried about anything. sorry to interrupt you but i was going. to say that you can see there's a. fuel like the the more. attention and the higher regard you're. held in in your community. and the more sycophants like continue to. blow smoke up your ass.

the more it changes the way you present. yourself and you can see it in in every. walk of life. i mean jiu-jitsu is a tiny tiny little. section of the world. but you see it in the jiu jitsu. community when someone all of a sudden. starts a social media page or whatever. and they get a bunch of people like. basically like you know. cyber fellating them on their instagram. page they. they changed a lady is that a word i. think so. so giving fellatio yeah it's afflating. yeah jamie look it up. i think but in those people they it.

changes their character. yeah it changes who they are because. they become emboldened and. you know now they've got this like. mythical cyber mob behind them. there's a sign at the entrance to your. gym that reads for every moment of. triumph. it's a quote by hunter s thompson it. reads for every moment of triumph. for every instance of beauty many souls. must be trampled. what does this quote me do that quote to.

me is about. mostly about sacrifice. and it's about to achieve anything great. or anything beautiful or to triumph you. have to have sacrificed. so many things to get there unless. you're the most unbelievably genetically. gifted person in the world. and greatness is just you know falls. upon you it's just raining from the sky. i think on your path to greatness on. your path to success and triumph.

you leave a lot of carnage in your wake. personal relationships. other goals things that you didn't. pursue um. you know other unfulfilled dreams and. you kind of have to sell a lot of that. out. in order to be really the. at the the peak of your field or. or what you want to be um. i know that that's happened in my life i. mean there's tons and tons of. relationships that you know couldn't. survive.

the way that i was living my life. because when i was trying to be a big. time fighter. or like when i was just training all the. time tons of relationships. uh dissolved themselves naturally some. not so naturally. some people get it some people don't get. it some people hate you. um you miss tons of other opportunities. and i think that's kind of what that. quote means to me it's about sacrifice. it's about. you're giving up what you want now for. what you want more.

and it's the the trampling of souls. it's messy too because it's not clear. what. what the right path is like that. sacrifice. is not obvious that um that's those are. the right sacrifices to make you might. be. you might be ruining your own life but. the the fact that you're willing to take. that risk. and uh sort of go. all in on the whether it's stupid or not. to go all.

in on something that the possib. the possibility of creating something. beautiful is there who says it's stupid. if you're going all in on it you don't. think it's stupid someone else might. think it's stupid. but i mean who really cares well i'm of. many minds on many things so i feel like. there's certain minds certain moods of. the day where you think it's stupid. like relationships is a beautiful one. which is you've seen the movie whiplash. by any chance yes. it seems like in a man's life.

or it could be a woman's but i'm i don't. identify as a woman so i know the man. them the lyrics it's 20 20 bro but. my lived experience for now is that of a. man we'll see about tomorrow. and there is in the pursuit of. excellence. there's often a choice of. um some of the souls that must be. trampled are personal relationships. with humans in your life that you might.

deeply care about it could be family it. could be friends. it could be loved ones of all different. forms. it could be the people that your. colleagues. that uh depended on you people who will. lose jobs because of the decisions you. make all this kind of stuff. it seems that that moment happens and. i'm not sure. that sacrifice is always the correct one. like to me the movie whiplash for people. haven't seen. a spoiler alert maybe i don't even know. if that movie has any. spoilers but there is a relationship.

with a female. there's a student that's a drummer. that's pursuing excellence of this. particular. art form of drumming and he has. a brief fleeting relationship with a. female. and he also has an instructor that's. pushing him to his limits. in what appears to be awfully a lot like. a toxic relationship. and he chooses not chooses. he naturally makes the decision.

to sacrifice the romantic relationship. with the woman. in in further pursuit of this chaos. of this chaotic pursuit of excellence. and it feel that doesn't feel like a. deliberate decision it feels like a. giant. mess of like an emotional mess where. you're just like. kind of like a fish swimming against. stream just like. fuck it you let go of all the things. that. convention says you should appreciate.

you you throw away the possibility of a. stable life of a comfortable life of uh. what society says is a meaningful life. and just pursue this crazy thing. full of toxic seeming toxicity with. crazy people surrounding you. i don't know so i don't know what the. right decision is like part of my brain. says you should stay with the girl. uh fuck that instructor that's making. you. uh that's pushing you to to places where. it's like. that are destructive potentially.

destructive like could lead to suicide. could lead you to uh completely. uh. fail or fail on your pursuit. of excellence or destroy the possibility. to destroy the dream. the passion or pursuit of the thing that. you've always dreamed for in that case. is drumming. i don't know i'm on many minds there. like what is the right thing to do. so my first two thoughts are number one. fuck convention. what is convention it's like a some laid.

out. path some linear progression of the way. your life is supposed to go. like you know that someone can draw a. picture of at the end that shit's. that first of all it's just boring and. whatever. and it's it's i don't want to say that. it's cowardly because it isn't cowardly. but for someone who's not conventional. to not be non-conventional. is cowardly to get sucked into the. convention that's first. second of all i believe. that scene in the diner in that movie. where he tells her yeah you're in my way.

because. i'm gonna want to be with you or you're. going to want me to be going out to. dinner with you and i know i should be. practicing or i know. i should be training and ultimately i'm. going to make i'm either going to feel. bad about not being with you. by training or i'm going to skip the. training to be with you and neither one. is right. the whole thing that they don't mention. in that is that that's the wrong girl. that's the wrong girl. the right girl is a gangster the right. girl says. oh you you you've practiced tonight i'll.

leave you a sandwich and some milk so. that you can. you know uh outside the door uh let me. know when you're done or you have some. like free time. like the right girl compliments that. she's not an impediment. in any way even if what you want to do. is. be with her so much that you're putting. the drums down you're putting the bass. down or you're picking up the pizza or. you're not going to training like. that girl without even telling you why. she's making decisions. is making decisions to help you achieve. your goal. now that might sound like some sort of.

like chauvinistic king of the castle. type shit like where everyone should. cater to you. but the fact of the matter is uh. that person is a compliment to your life. and helping you do your thing. and in your own way you're helping them. to achieve whatever their goals are. also it's uncommon that you have two. people under the same roof. striving to be unbelievably excellent in. one small area it's not impossible but. it's uncommon. like relationships have to be like.

binary systems like two stars. like the gravitational pull is what. keeps you together and circling around. one another right. and and you know one is bigger than the. other and they'll fluctuate and you know. the stars will get bigger and they'll. get smaller and they're contract. based on positioning and you know. composition. that that's the way a relationship. should be not an asteroid coming in. to disrupt you know your the the surface. of your planet yeah it's a binary system. it's a compliment that girl was the. wrong girl for him.

so you shouldn't uh like the big. unconventional dreams. should not be adjusted to fit into this. world because i mean there is a part of. me that's like full of salt out well. maybe you're just a dick. maybe maybe who cares lex so. first of all who cares. this is uh by the by the way somebody. who's uh. you have you have recently gotten well. recently. in the span of the history of the.

universe is recently you got into a. relationship but you haven't always. you have not felt the need to be. in the relationship just because you're. supposed to by society's kind of. momentum if you i think that if you. really want anything. you've got to be prepared fully to be. the exact opposite. if you're a person who's looking for a. relationship the only way you're going. to get in an awesome relationship is by. being comfortable being alone. yeah because that's the risk if you're a. person who's driven by money you've got. to be comfortable being totally poor.

because that's the risk right and when. you're when. when you're when you're constantly. hedging your bets you're never. all in you're never all in on the thing. you're trying to do. um a relationship has to complement your. life you can't say. it's okay to want to be in a. relationship but you can't want to be in. a relationship so bad. that you take someone in who fits the. suit and it's like oh. our schedules kind of work out you live. near me and this and the other thing.

because the logistics of a relationship. are not always perfect. it's what matters is when the two people. are together that's the perfect part of. it. and it's great to want to meet people. and say if we meet and. some sort of a relationship develops i'm. willing to run with it. but i'm not meeting you hoping a. relationship develops. i think you kind of put the cart before. the horse in a lot of those. situations it's like when guys meet like. no guy goes out and is like i'm looking.

for a bro. right nobody does that you go to the gym. and you run into a bunch of dudes and. the next thing you know someone's cool. and they want to talk about fighting. and you're fucking shotgun and beers and. all of a sudden you got a bro yeah and. that's how it works it works the same. same way with what's the shotgun and. beers um i'll show you after this. you poke a hole in the bottom and you. open the top. yeah this is the problem with america. drink vodka like a man okay now don't. poke holes in beers. this is the problem with the frat. culture they don't really know how to.

drink they think they know how to drink. they don't know how to drink. what do you think. makes a successful relationship if we. can linger on that a little longer. like let me ask. john clark about love. i didn't ask a question but let me just. say love. about love. uh are you one of those people who never. says i love you no.

no i'm an extreme person and uh like my. emotions are also extreme. and one of the things uh i concern. myself with. maybe this is philosophical and martial. arts warrior soldier type related stuff. is like. i don't want anyone if i die tonight on. the drive home. hopefully that doesn't happen i hope. that no one is. left questioning how i felt about them. and people i don't like probably are not.

questioning that. and so the the thing that i've had to. learn how to do later in life is to tell. the people that. you care about that you care about them. and um each thing can be equally. off-putting to the receiver of the. message. each thing can be equally upgraded when. you're letting someone know how much you. dislike them that can be off-putting to. the person receiving that message. and when you tell someone how much you. care about them it can also be. off-putting to the person. depending on how they view their.

relationship with you but it's still. important to get it out there. like you shouldn't you shouldn't hold. those things in because you're worried. about how they'll be received or if. they'll come back at you. so you're okay going all in yeah on. these. yeah you're not afraid of commitment no. i'm not afraid of commitment anyone who. says they're afraid of commitment is. full of shit you know what they're. afraid of. they're afraid of commitment with that. person that's what they're afraid of. like you no one when someone knocks your. your. knocks you on your ass and they come.

into your life and you're. flush with all these emotions you're not. worried about. oh i don't really like commitment no. because they've knocked you on your ass. you want to be with them. you want those things the the two most. alive. points in your life i think people feel. is the euphoria of a new relationship. and the law and then the loss when that. love is gone. you know you'll never feel more i don't. think than in those. those moments in in your life see the. nice thing about the loss. is it lasts longer.

yeah that's a lose ck. point that he makes which is like uh. that like uh he in his show i think has. a. conversation with an older gentleman. that says like that's his favorite part. of the relationship. is that period between the loss. of the relationship and the real death. which is forgetting the person but that. period lasts the longest and that's the. like the most fulfilling like missing.

the other person. is as fulfilling as the actual like. love the the early infatuation which is. interesting i also think of the bukowski. i returned to that there's a little clip. of him in an interview. saying that love is a. fog that dissipates. with the first light of reality or. something like that so. basically emphasizing that it's this. very very very fleeting thing.

that it's a it's a moment's thing. and then it just fades and everything. else is uh. is something else so love is only a. temporary thing which is. interesting i think some people say. that's cynical. i don't know i don't know what to think. of it i think it's important to. understand that everything is fleeting. when you don't put effort into it. almost everything will be fleeting if. you don't put effort into it most people. will get fat and lazy if you don't put. effort into something you're going to. not be.

good at uh playing guitar or playing. bass you've got to put effort into it. the same thing goes for a relationship. that the the awesome part of it. that like love part that dies soon and. early on in a relationship. because it's so good that we think we. don't have to work at it. but you do you have to like keep doing. the things you got to keep things. new and crisp and fresh and you know. when you. when you different people probably feel. differently.

about this but like i don't know you. walk around your girl and you start like. farting and stuff like that's when it. all dies. yeah that's when it dies you know we're. all human beings. we all you know have you know we're all. here and our bodies working the same way. but like. you start to chip away at this like. beautiful thing. when you when you stop. when you buck conventional courtesy. and and things like that well take it. for granted basically take it for. granted yeah i mean that's the same. thing with life.

it's like it's the same i'm a big fan of. meditating on. death that you could die today in the. same way you should meditate on like. this relationship could end today this. connection with another human could be. this is the last time you could uh. you could be interacting yeah and your. your chances of that increase when you. take it for granted and you shit on. people. but when you work at it the chances of. that decrease it's not. it's never going to be zero but it. decreases and and. when you do that when you're the person.

and you're you're trying to maintain. and you're trying to you know work at. the relationship you got to make sure. that both people are working at it. otherwise you're just a fucking chump. okay let's uh return back to uh mixed. martial arts. let me ask the ridiculous question of uh. who do you think are the top. three maybe top five greatest fighters. of all time. it's so hard to compare fighters across. generations and maybe on one way to say. it is which metrics.

would you put on the table as to measure. what a great fighter is. there was a guy named dioccipus. [Laughter]. in the fourth century yeah and he was. such a badass. that in the olympics in 336 bc no one. even showed up to fight him. in the pancreatic event nobody even. showed up because he's fucking everybody. up. years later he was retired and uh this. crazy macedonian dude came there at some. dinner for.

you know alexander the great everyone's. chilling drinking you know whatever they. were drinking out of their. chalices and this macedonian dude. threatened him and challenged him so. dioccipus said yeah man. we'll throw down and you know they set. the time in the place macedonian dude. comes out like. body armor spear shield all this other. shit. the octopus came out absolutely naked. with a wooden club. and took on this much younger guy beat. the living crap out of him and then put.

his foot on his throat. uh and then didn't even kill him in the. show of ultimate power. for the time so i think there's. something about the guy being naked too. it's just. extra demeaning extra demeaning yeah. okay. can we rephrase the question then. because those are clearly going to be. some probably forgotten warriors in. history let's take it to like modern day. mixed martial arts in the ufc perhaps. well. just mixed martial arts there who do you.

think are the top fighters of all time. what metrics would you consider in in. trying to answer this perhaps. unanswerable question i think one of the. things you want to think about is a. strength of opponent at the time you. fought them. so for example fighting bj penn. in his prime and beating him is far. different than beating bj penn last year. right. so to say you have a victory over bj. penn it's not the same given the time. frame of when it happened not to take. anything away from anyone was being b.j.

penn. just use that as an example of someone. whose career went into a different. direction. yes i would say. the guy who i think is probably the best. that people are the least familiar with. would be marilla bustamante. and i think he was a guy who was one of. the guys with the first. really good physical build for mma which. i think is. narrow from the chest to the back and.

long shoulder to shoulder. and kind of sinewy made out of steel. cable that was a guy who could box. that was a guy who could wrestle and. that was a guy who had great jiu-jitsu. i wasn't a great kick but at the time he. didn't need it. fought everybody and gave everybody a. run. uh i think he's probably one of those. guys who's. got to be considered yeah there's a few. killers that never. because like why is he not in the. discussion is it because like. i think greatness requires.

both the the skill and the opportunity. to meet each other and when you talk. about a fighter the other thing. that really a good fighter needs to. become great is a foil. yeah and so many fighters don't have a. foil. that's one of the biggest attractions i. think of early mike tyson's career. he didn't have a foil he had no one. driving him and by the time he did by. the time he had a foil in holyfield. his career was in a different place but. he he's one of the greats of all time he. never really. had a foil so his greatness was in the.

un unparalleled destruction of like. nobody right well not you know. uh of lesser opponents right and so when. people. uh debate the you know the level of. greatness of mike tyson that's one of. the things they say like he didn't fight. a lot of killers in their prime i think. you've obviously got to say in that. conversation. i have a really difficult time keeping. george st pierre out of the.

conversation uh only because. he was able to beat you with anything he. could he could. out jab you he could out wrestle you and. he could he could submit you. the problem i have with fedor is his. career also took. a drastic turn towards the end. and when he was fighting in pride he was. doing a lot more grappling. and then he just started casting that. overhand right at people. and his game kind of changed at that. point uh he can't take anything away.

from his greatness but. at that time the great heavyweights were. not really. uh in fighting in pride and they didn't. really exist yet and by the time he. fought a really good one fabrizio over. doom. he did get submitted there does does his. later. performance color our your and our. perception. of his greatness like in general about. fighters. not mine but i'm someone who's like. intimately involved in the sport. but it colors everyone else's same with. anderson silva like i don't think.

anderson. doesn't want to fight in like seven. years or something or he's like one like. that's a guy who in his prime was one of. the best fighters. is he in the top five for you i think. he's probably in a top five yeah. greater striker of all time or no in mma. and. in mixed martial arts and mixed martial. arts. that's a tough question the greatest mma. striker. of all time because like the timing the. we were talking about foot sweeps right. yeah who makes it look. easier and uh anderson zilla i think.

in an incredibly short sample of his. prime. it's got to be anderson silva and i. think you have to consider discussing. leota machida. for his unbelievable manipulation of. distance. yeah which is something that people. don't really talk too much about in. terms of fighting unless you're someone. in the sport. yeah the his his use of distance and the. ability to like. what we call pop out like and make you. miss by one inch. so that he could follow your fist back. in as you retract it and.

hit you over the top that. that's a thing of beauty anderson silva. when he became a counter striker. when he got to his prime in the ufc that. was a thing of beauty that was the thing. of beauty. um so i think definitely those two guys. and maril bustamanti's got to be. the third guy they're just so many good. guys now so. where do you put in terms of metrics as. you mentioned gsp and anderson silva i. think they have a large number of. defenses of a title. is that important to you like this kind.

of consistent. domination no because it's too much it's. easily easily manipulated by the people. making money off the fights. so there's a great quote one time uh. when ufc was coming to prominence. and uh vince mcmahon from the wwe he. said. you know the difference between what we. do and what uh ufc does. is that when we have a superstar. i can make sure he stays on top until. he's no longer a superstar because we. have predetermined results. yeah the ufc can't do that because.

they're actually having fights well it's. true and false you can't do that but you. can give. your superstars the most favorable. match-ups to keep them on top for the. longest. so people always talk about title. defenses as if the guy they're fighting. the challenger is always the person most. deserving of the shot. and it's just not true so i don't put. that much stock in it. is it possible to put a guy in the in um. in consideration of one of the greats if. all they had. is one or two amazing fights.

i'll tell you like and and amazing could. be. a lot of different definitions it could. be just a war like they never really. reached. the highest of excellences of domination. but. they've like this we had this discussion. about. kyle bochniak right yep. uh to me that's the perfect example he. had this famous. fight uh against the beat. magametr sharapov. where you on one side you have an.

anderson silva type of fighter. and ends to be like just a very good. striker. like and then there's like the warrior. on the. on the kyle's side and just the fight. they created something special together. it was fight at night whatever but the. you know that fight was special. on that night because because the two. dance partners. you can have a great performance without. being a great fighter not saying neither. of those guys is a great fighter but to.

answer your first question. uh i think that having one or two great. performances. does not necessarily mean that you're. great when i need a larger sample size. i have no idea what that is i don't have. any idea what that is and also. where how much weight does toughness. have when you're thinking about the. criteria when you define a great fighter. that's that's that's a good question and. i don't have the answer to it.

i admire the underdog that rises to the. occasion through brute force. they didn't have they didn't bring the. skill set to the table that. perhaps some of the greats have but they. rose to the occasion i mean there's. something about that there's something. about that and so now. we're more talking about like uh the. internal attributes as opposed to the. external physical attributes. and those are the things i think that. you cannot teach. those things you you come in the door. and you either have that or you don't i. think. and we talk about this all the time and.

this is one of the things where my mind. changes. regularly like i'm what makes a fighter. is it is it born or is it bread. and this week i'm of the opinion that uh. it's in you and maybe it's in you and. you suppress it and people can tease it. out of you. but i don't think you can make someone. who doesn't have that seed in there. i don't think you can turn them into. that great warrior with that level of. grit. and mental toughness now when that that. fight. when kyle footes a beat it's a unique.

situation for both guys. it was kind of a later later replacement. fight for kyle. it's a beats star was on the rise and. kyle put the blueprint out there. on how to beat the beat um which is. which is uh pressure him and try and. drag him into the late rounds you notice. that. later on when uh calvin kater fought him. they wouldn't give him five rounds. they wanted five rounds and it's a beats. camp from what i understand would not. agree to the five round fight. well he didn't look right so with kylo. was a. three-round fight three-round fight and.

what did uh. he went to decision it went to decision. was a beat one a decision clearly. did kyle have a shot of winning the. third round i don't remember the exact. score but kyle could have. won the third round had he done a couple. things. differently but i do believe in the. fourth round. i think kyle would have won a fourth. round and i think maybe even won the. fight and. if there would have been a fifth round. and he was pressing forward. uh like perhaps you know in a funny way. that you could. tell me i'm wrong but it felt like he.

wasn't emphasizing like. head movement at that point he went full. mike tyson there was a there was a point. at which. so it's funny that you say that which is. a contradiction actually because. mike tyson had a great headache i. actually don't know exactly what i mean. because he was in the pocket i think he. was trying to do the movement he was. just in the pocket. and pressing forward and like the fuck. you attitude it was just like yeah. that was a little bit later once it. beats backwards towards the cage but. the we we get that fight and.

i said to kyle i was like look this kid. has been training martial arts since he. was three years old. there's not an area where you're gonna. out technique him and so we've gotta now. channel some of that grit that we know. you have this is an opportunity to. showcase it. and i don't know how long i did it for. but um because kyle's much. shorter than the beat so for a good long. while while we're training for zabeet i. didn't even say anything. and i just had clips of mike tyson. training on the tv in the gym. and the head movement and i didn't even. mention it and then we started to like.

get into it. and talk about you know getting inside. the length of the longer fighter and. uh things like that and we we kind of. which. when some people train mma they say okay. this guy's a really good wrestler. let's think about avoiding the wrestling. or being a better wrestler and i think. that. when the difference in skill is so great. those are both the wrong answer. if a guy who's a really good wrestler. wants to take you down and you don't. have a lot of wrestling experience he's. probably going to get you down if he's. got a good coach.

right so you have to deal with that to. then say i'm gonna then. learn in eight weeks how to wrestle. better than a guy who's been wrestling. since he was eight years old is also a. bad idea. so what we concentrated on for that camp. and it worked beautifully was. not getting caught in chain wrestling. these are the takedowns you're going to. get caught with. this is how to not get caught with the. next step while you're defending take. down one. because it's the chain of techniques. that are going to get you fucked right. so we talked we did a ton of work on get. ups and breaking the hands from.

the various takedowns like it was a. while ago now so i don't remember. exactly the techniques we worked on but. we concentrated on. defend the first takedown and stay out. of the chain don't get chained into. a bunch of wrestling techniques because. you will be out wrestled um. and that was really successful and then. in the third round uh beat was tired. and uh he was tired he's a beat got. tired he cuts a tremendous amount of. weight yeah like i. i can't see him staying at 145 forever. when they start giving him. five round fights i don't even know if. he's had a five-round fight yet he may. have but.

um i i can't see him staying down there. he's the guy's like six. one yeah guys he's he's a giant of a guy. so. kyle pressed forward there and he said. uh he felt that there was no power left. in zabeet's hands and so he felt fine. and i think part of it was he fed off. the crowd as he moved forward. and um you know saw that. he wasn't taking a lot of damage like. the punches weren't standing him. he started walking right through him it. goes to your question of what makes a.

fighter. was the him walking forward. like that something that you're born. with or is that something you were. training is that. is that the mike tyson on tv born with. that kyle is born with that. and the crowd i i've been in boston. no he's in new york he's in brooklyn. i've been in a lot of arenas for a lot. of different sporting events that's one. of the loudest things i've ever heard. when he did that and i was going crazy. and um. you ask about that being like taught or. not kyle is so much like that.

that i have to try and tease some of. that out of him and pull it back. because he's also so very technical when. he wants to be. that the emotion and the fun of it gets. in the way of his technique. and and probably has cost them a couple. of a couple of wins and so that's one of. the things we work on with him right now. is like staying within yourself. being a professional taking your time to. download the information in round one. and then starting your fight in round. two but the tension between those two. things what makes. uh what on that day created one of the.

in my opinion one of the greatest fights. i've ever seen joe rogan agrees yeah. it's one of the greatest fights i've. certainly ever seen. so like i you it's funny that you as a. coach. i can see the frustration of like. like throwing away some of the strategy. kind of thing. like you seeing like being not happy. that there could be things that he could. have done to win the fight. it's in retrospect i think that at that. time we were playing with incredible. house money.

kyle was a gigantic underdog in that. fight his beat was unstoppable i think. people were probably picking him to. finish the fight in round one. i think at that point no one had ever. gone the distance with the beat yeah and. no one certainly had. you know put that kind of performance. together and i think kyle uh kyle put. the blueprint out there. and in retrospect when i look at the. last round. yeah there were things that could have. been done differently but we're playing. with house money at that point like i. mean. let it fly you you get to a point where. you've got it you're down three rounds.

and there's 20 seconds left you got to. move all your chips to the center of the. table and. you know see what happens do you. remember what joe rogan said about it. i i remember like he got one over i. think. i have trouble remembering because. offline we talked about that fight and. he's exceptionally impressed by. i mean joe's from boston so it's like. yeah. i mean there there's a story there okay. it sucks not you naturally want to. romanticize. like there's a rocky versus like uh. there's a rocky four. dragon i mean um similar i suppose.

kind of chemistry kyle's style. represents the american ideal. right the spirit yeah i mean he's from. gloucester it's like you could have. you could have dragged him off the docks. like three hours before the fight and. said hey you want to go fight and he. would have said yes. yeah oh man that was a special fight but. that's. as per discussion of like greatest. fighters of all time i tend. to believe that that fight is more. special than the.

the the champion the championship belt. defense is by george san pierre like. you know there's something to that it's. like rocky um. rocky one is uh is more special than. like. rocky iii right so like yeah it's. though that yeah the the underdog or. it's whatever like the dance partners. like going to war. and like that moment i mean it's bigger. it's bigger than any individual fighter. they create that and that i know it's.

not perhaps. good for a career it's not good for like. in terms of money in terms of longevity. in terms of all those kinds of things. but that's a special moment. in the history of fighting that you both. created i can remember. like right after like there was so much. excitement in the air during the third. round. and i remember being in the corner and. like i i was so. excited at the end of it that i had. forgotten what happened in the other two. rounds i didn't even know and. and i looked to to sean one of the other. cornermen and i think i said to him. did we win when we re-watched the fight.

clearly we didn't win the fight i mean. we lost the other rounds but i got so. caught up. in that moment and then i just remember. like i was. so in awe of his performance that like i. forgot what was going on and i. i and it's so hard to not be a fan at. that moment and to stay within yourself. and try and like coach. but then what the fuck you even coaching. at that point it's like we're rumbling. we got 30 seconds we're trying to win. here and i remember. like the performance itself i'm not a. fan of moral victories but if ever there. was going to be one that was one.

and when the fight was over and i. grabbed kyle. they hadn't even been to the center of. the cage yet and i just hugged him and i. said. you're my fucking hero and i remember. being very emotional about that that i. was able to be a part of that. it feels wrong to say but i was i kind. of avoided saying it but if i'm being. honest with my feelings. this is a safe space for feelings yeah. is i. think it was the greatest mixed martial. arts fight i've ever seen and i don't. think i'm being biased i was honestly.

thinking like am i being biased i. honestly. don't think so i think that was the. greatest fight like if you want to rank. fights i've ever seen. i think to me that was the greatest. fight i've ever seen it certainly was a. uh one of the greatest displays of like. just. dogged effort from an underdog who was. out experienced and and probably. outsized. but i mean like you just kyle's one of. those kids you're never gonna tell him. he's out of a fight. he has something you can't teach and.

i've seen. tons of people with more physical. attributes. and they're just mental midgets and they. got a million dollar body and a 50 cent. heart. and and and kyle is not that yeah and. you can't teach it no matter what you do. but that was i would say like my career. in combat sports which spans you know if. you want to go all the way back to like. wrestling like. that was one of probably the greatest. experiences i've i've been a part of a. bittersweet sport she's a fickle. mistress.

yeah i mean the the tragic aspect of. that is. um like i guess kyle lost. right right so like if you look at the. record and all the kind of things. perhaps uh like you look at the career. maybe like as a financial. from a financial perspective that. perhaps is not uh. the the greatest thing for carl's career. or. that or in in the history of the ufc.

perhaps it's not. it's not um you know like maybe many. people didn't even watch that fight. but it was a special moment that stands. in the history there's not many of these. in uh in the history of fighting so but. at the end of the day when you look at. someone's career in the ufc like. financially there's a you know a handful. of people that make real money. everybody else makes nothing there's a. handful of people that make real money. so did that loss cost him in the in the.

near term sure. but when you look back on your life. you're not going to look back on that. loss as something that derailed my life. financially and i never. recovered from it that's not going to. happen like the sad thing is. unless you were a champion and you know. most most people are going to be. forgotten right after they're gone. most people will be forgotten and if. you're not forgotten certainly your. your accolades are going to be. misrepresented either they're going to. be inflated or diminished one way or the. other so. looking back on it it's just so hard to. to quantify that but it's an experience.

and like. when you're in that moment and you're. one of the people like. intimately involved in it like the value. of that experience. supersedes any financial gain. where would you put khabib in the. discussion of the greatest of all time. so you recently we worked together we. watched the fight. um of him and um justin gaichy. and and khabib retired would you put him. up there. as some of the as one of the greatest or.

did he. never truly find his foil that like the. great warrior that challenged him. and um and maybe do you wanna do you. think he's. fully retired now to answer the question. about being fully retired i don't have. any idea i can't for a second pretend. to um. think that i understand the way that. people from that part of the world think. and respect their family and things like. that to an american who says oh i. promised my mom i wouldn't do it i mean. i promised my mom i wouldn't do a lot of.

things i went right out fucking back. door and did them yeah. but i think that that means something. different to people in different parts. of the world. so i have no idea what kind of weight. that carries. so i can't answer that i can say. a lot of times when people think about. great fighters they think about the. aspects that make up. mma like they think of mma as a pie. and they're all these different pieces. that make up for make up the pie. and how good is this piece and how good. is this piece and how good is this piece. when the fact of the matter is is you.

only need. one really really really good piece and. the other pieces are complementary. pieces to get you. to where you're the strongest and if you. want to tell me. that khabib's not the greatest mma. fighter because he doesn't have really. slick striking. you can make that argument but what i. can tell you is khabib has good enough. striking. to get him to his grappling where he is. clearly the best guy at 155 they've ever. seen. yeah so does that make him the greatest. fighter at that division or not.

to your point about the foil they wanted. conor to be his foil. and he just manhandled them i mean they. wanted that to happen. did not happen so well there there's a. kind of argument to be made. which would kind of not you get haters. in this argument. and and you're going to be one of the. haters okay because i know you're uh. uh put a lack of uh admiration for. conor mcgregor uh but. you know uh what is it football's the.

game of inches. yeah there's there's a sense where. you know that conor there's an argument. to be made. that conor wasn't exactly dominated that. he ended up being dominant meaning. let me phrase it differently is there's. a lot of points. in the fight that it could have uh a. different trajectory. right could have happened so he wasn't. so far from. having a chance at winning that fight. it's just the end.

you can focus those are the most. important moments at the end. you've lost the most important moments. right but the road less taken it could. have been. if he didn't lose those very important. moments. he had a chance so i'm saying out of all. the people that could be. fought it's arguable that conor was up. there of the people that had a chance. let me say this first. i love you get so much heat for this i. do love khabib i'm a huge khabib fan. because i'm a grappler.

first and foremost me too because i'm. also russian i love khabib. calm down okay but when when when connor. came on the scene i loved conor because. i'm an irish american and. you know i want to support him and. things like that and he was he was good. fun. he he got to be for my personal. taste he got to be too much of all the. people khabib has fought. i would never fight conor again if i. were him and here's why. and i said this about the diaz fight. nate diaz who's one of my favorite.

fighters has fought the exact same fight. for 12. years conor will switch something up to. give himself an edge. and i believe that conor would figure. something out in fight number two. i think but i also thought that gage. would give could be problems. where it wouldn't be a matter of i'm. gonna out wrestle khabib or. become better at defending his wrestling. takedowns conor would have figured out a. way to not get wrestled. i feel like he's constantly changing. he's constantly evolving.

and whether or not people realize it or. not i think conor's one of the better. overall. athletes in mma just from looking at his. body and his movement. and the way he's shaped he's got a very. tiny waist he's got really pronounced. glutes and shoulders. and i think he's a real athlete whereas. a lot of guys in mma are not for real. athletes they're just good at. one of the things that makes up mma i. understand what you're saying about. if this happened if that happened but i. mean you could say that about. every single combat sports event ever if. spinx's hook land.

landed on tyson maybe that fight didn't. end the way that it did. but you know what it didn't you're. absolutely right but. if we could talk about just conor. mcgregor for a second. i can't wait to get your fan mail or. hate mail. um speak to the innovation of conor. i don't hear very many people making. this argument. but is it possible to make an argument. that conor mcgregor is one of the. greatest fighters of all time.

it's an interesting argument and the. problem the only problem with the. argument. is there's so much emotion on either. side yeah i had a conversation sorry to. interrupt. with uh jaron brook who's a. a philosopher objectivist and. which is the philosophy of iron rand and. the amount of. emotion around that particular human is. fascinating to me it's similar to. the amount of emotion around donald. trump you can think of different. personalities maybe elon musk.

those are the people that aren't willing. to have their mind changed they're too. emotionally attached to the argument. yeah but it's weird that why do we why. why some people inspire so much emotion. and others don't but conor mcgregor i. feel like. nobody's able to have a calm like. uh fight analysis of the guy like. look to me as just a fan of. martial arts like i study judo i love. watching just hours of.

olympic judo and uh appreciating the art. form like i forget the humans involved. uh teddy renair who's a heavy. heavyweight the most probably the most. dominant heavyweight. in the history of judo just studying his. gripping just the art of it. and who cares if there's shit talking. like to me um. i i put all of that aside and just look. at the art. and like what i really appreciate about. conor mcgregor. is his innovation like.

of movement of maybe it's romanticized. maybe. you can correct me i'm just uh a cheeto. eating fan. of mixed martial arts but like i i seem. to detect. more innovation than almost any other. fighter. uh that i've pa pay attention to in. conor mcgregor i think first to i'll. answer in two parts i think. well i'm not going to answer the first. part it's just a comment because you. didn't ask the question. what was the question i don't even. remember it's about the the.

how conor mcgregor fans are very. emotional and conor mcgregor detractors. are very emotional. i think fans become very emotional they. become cheerleaders of someone like. conor mcgregor or donald trump because. they see that person exhibiting the. qualities that they themselves lack. and so they become cheerleaders for that. right and i think that for the most part. people who are detractors of conor. mcgregor's they're not really conor. mcgregor detractors. they're detractors of connor's. supporters there's a beef that they have. with the people in that bucket.

right like it's not really a problem and. that applies probably. in our current political climate right. with donald trump with the left and the. right there it's more about like. they uh they actually don't like. on the other the caricatured the most. extreme versions of. what they see in this quarters of the. other side yeah that's a good point but. i think the more interesting thing is. the fighter himself so let's put the. supporters aside. i would i would say that you know. what some people know and some people. don't know is that conor's base is in.

karate and the karate. style of conor mcgregor stephen thompson. um. of lyoto machida that type of distance. management. a lot of times we think as martial. artists we think that. the sport version of the art we've. chosen to pursue. somehow taints the authenticity in the. in the. effectiveness of it but point karate is. what led to that in and out distance. management style. of connor of leota and of stephen.

thompson they all kind of use it a. little bit differently. but they use it very effectively all. three of them and that comes from. a world of trying to kind of like. uh step in land contact on you from my. point and then get back out before you. can counter-strike me. right and that's where that comes from. conor is blessed to have. longer arms than someone his height. probably normally has. and his movement is just so fluid he's. so athletic with. uh the hinges of his body the knees and.

the hips. and the swivel of his body which is also. the hips and the shoulders. his movement his distance and the way he. sets people up for the straight left. hand. while you're circling away from it and. he can still land it which is what he. did to chad mendes. hit him with a straight left while he. was circling away from it. that is something that is uh very. beautiful to watch. and sometimes people see the kicks. and they see all the flashy snap kicks. and the sidekicks.

all that stuff is doing is setting. people up for the left hand. it's all it's doing it's you're. corralling people you're funneling. people or you're leading the dance. and you're bringing them to a spot where. you know you can land that left hand. and his ability to do that is masterful. people constantly shit on his ability to. grapple and you know because a couple of. his losses have been. uh to jiu jitsu guys or grapplers but. they've been to really good guys. like anyone who's gonna sit here and. tell me conor mcgregor is not a good. grappler. go grapple him yeah let me see you.

grapple him. to that point i'll also say a lot of. people will use conor mcgregor's x-guard. sweep on nate diaz as evidence. to his high-level grappling in that. fight to which i would also counter. nate diaz didn't fight that off because. he knew he was so much better at. jiu-jitsu off the bottom that he didn't. even care if he got swept. so is conor mcgregor innovative. absolutely. um is he one of the best fighters ever. it's tough to say because he's such a. cash cow that he was fed people. i firmly believe no one who.

who put that conor mcgregor khabib fight. together thought khabib would win. wow i i remember so at that time. it was not completely clear there was a. myth. of the great khabib right it wasn't. completely clear how good is he really. so that's interesting and it was unclear. how. good is conor also right like what. uh because because i think to me. maybe part of my admiration of conor. mcgregor is rooted in the fact that i.

thought there's no way. he beats jose aldo and i thought there's. no. definitely no way he beats eddie alvarez. and so like when he did. uh i was like i had to like my i had to. my brain was like like there's something. broken it was like shut down like on. windows like froze we have to rethink. this. like this is a special human now people. who argue he's not even in the running. of like. top 20 is you know if you look at the. number of defenses for example of his.

belt. he had very very little but like to me. i'm one of those people is back to our. discussion of like. do moments make great fighters that i. think just being able to beat jose aldon. is. i would argue in his prime some people. might disagree. in this uh. in in a way where he like figures out. the puzzle gets in his head the entirety. of the picture. and then to be i mean eddie alvarez. would he be considered a really good. strong wrestler.

like like or uh not not strong wrestling. strong striker and wrestler that could. the whole combination of it and also uh. what's the other wrestler he fought chad. mendes chairman so. let me comment on all those if i may so. i was at the chad mendez fight live. yeah and um there was a jiu jitsu. tournament we're out in vegas and so me. my best friend came out and we got some. tickets that night was supposed to be. the first. aldo fight aldo got hurt like right. after i bought the tickets. they pulled chad mendes in he was a. little bit out of shape whatever you.

still got to fight the fight. but i don't i don't want to use that. fight as evidence to conor's greatness. because you know they pulled chad mendez. and all he was like hunting and drinking. beers in the woods. and was a little out of shape yeah but. if you want to talk about greatness like. that surpasses. your in-ring accomplishments. i was in the stands that night and. the people that came from ireland to see. connor fight that night. single-handedly set the market for hotel.

room prices and airline tickets to vegas. that weekend these motherfuckers were. all dressed like connor. in the stands they had wool suits on and. big beards and the whole thing i mean. probably wearing pocket watches like i. never saw more people. trying to be someone else never saw more. people try to be someone else. i mean there's a level of is is there a. level of greatness in that i mean i. don't know how to. like parse all that out you're somebody. who doesn't admire that i love that. in the sense the following sense i think.

that people don't seem to hold this. belief at all. but to me fighting is not just. this isn't like a quiet street fight. that nobody watches this is also. spectacle this is also a story. right there's like there's a. professional wrestling element to this. this is not. like you you think it's it's just about. fighting if it was just about fighting. you wouldn't i mean there's a story to. it i guess. you're trying to get to it and like. greatness has to incorporate that.

like people that criticize again i might. be wrong on this but i i honestly think. that. uh conor mcgregor not nearly as much as. khabib but he he's a true. martial artist i think he respects his. opponents despite the talk. i if maybe i'm misreading it but it. feels like. he is a storyteller like uh jail son. and type of like he's constructed this. image. to tell to uh to play the story like. just the way he acts.

after the fight the honor he shows his. opponents. yeah there's a real martial art in there. and to dismiss the fact that. uh the the the story of the fight is. part of it. because he doesn't just shit talk this. is what people don't seem to understand. he's good at shit talking very good and. i and i'm with you on. on basically everything you said i think. that there's greatness to that and i. think that he understands how to sell a. fight. and i think.

what he did to jose aldo by getting in. his head. helped him win that fight. he insulted jose aldo and his country so. much. that he knew aldo was going to come. forward right into that left hook. was that fighting in brazil by the way. do you remember i don't recall because i. know. he insulted all of brazil yeah i'm not. sure yes in brazil. but when he tried to do that to khabib. you could tell that he just was not. going to get in khabib's head khabib was. unflappable. but there is there is definitely. something great about.

how he moves people you know the irish. are. are like i mean conor's walkout music. like for people from ireland and of. irish descent like. that shit is like very deep yeah you. know that. it's very emotional song i was. to be honest a little bit upset with. khabib. that he didn't rise i admire. that entire culture but there's an. aspect to where he could have risen to. the occasion of.

there's the same kind of depth of. love of country that russia has. and uh is there in dagestan dagestan is. a little weird. in terms of like but he could have. especially with putin's support where. for a bit. the full russian hat right of like this. is the great nation like rise above. the uh the culture of dagestan which is. a small town boy with the small.

town values of family and all those. kinds of things there's a moment where. you. inspire entire nations like. the step up and be the foil to the. to to the great conor mcgregor. where also could be becomes the fall to. like. like both both of them at the fall to. each other and become like. that fight was already a great fight. right but it could have been. something historic ali versus freight i. mean it could have been. really historic and i would argue.

i guess the biggest disappointment i. have and i understand it and i also. honor as a martial artist. but to i'm disappointed that khabib. doesn't seem to even consider the. possibility of doing in moscow. fight number two so and because that. could be. narrative wise if they do it right. that's one of the. could be one of the greatest fights in. history. yeah i think in terms of khabib.

and inspiring a country. is it possible that by staying true to. the values that he had his entire career. and getting to the zenith of. of his art form and still doing it in. that humble way isn't it possible that. that inspires. yeah 100 so i should i should clarify. that i think. they're just hearing from people from my. my fellow comrades. no uh it's they love that they love.

they love that but they uh. there's also a brash beer chugging shit. talking thing that people really like. about connor and i i do love that. but the beautiful narrative would have. been the clash the real clash of those. cultures so. khabib chooses to live the culture by. walking away. there's also like a clash of them sort. of. walking not walking away from the fire. by walking.

into the fire of this of this brashness. it's the. sort of um the cool. collected like calmness of the dagestan. people it's like you were talking about. the saita brothers so. they just view it totally differently. and. you know there are stereotypes about the. irish where they're. maybe potentially a louder more. boisterous culture. and i haven't heard of that yet yeah and. i mean i thought they each played. their part perfectly and.

all those things that you're describing. could have happened maybe khabib steps. up and. he carries the proverbial flag so to. speak for a nation of people. and they go to battle but the fight if. it plays out the same way is still the. fight. yeah and it was a it was an okay fight. it wasn't a great fight. it was you know the fight was okay yeah. and i think that again. i don't have any idea what khabib's. obligations to his family are. i don't i don't think either those guys.

you know is. want for more money to do another fight. is just a legacy thing it's just about. uh. you know fulfilling some some part of a. legacy. and i i just um i admire the possibility. of a great legacy of. that that is bigger than either of the. fighters i think. with khabib he kind of um he's not as. concerned about legacy i think. right there's uh you're a promoter's. dream because you want the rematch.

and the only thing that makes more money. than the rematch is the trilogy. you got to split the trip split the the. the rematch you hope conor wins and then. you have the trilogy fight. and you now you're all in yeah yeah i. can't get into khabib's. head but i know putin just the game the. entirety of it especially at the time. especially if it was. trump as president uh if. he was as president at the time and and. putin. and in russia and just.

knowing how masterful connor is at like. because kano would would be a different. connor i think he would be a calmer. connor. like there would be a different uh like. because you don't want to be over the. top connor with the russian people. right no it's it's like uh. dangerous that was the episode. in the hotel in brooklyn yeah when um. some of the russian guys confronted uh. artem. and then conor came over it's not but.

the danger of that i mean there is. the the element of just like real danger. and the real. it was almost of war it's uh i don't. know it's. it was like when when uh when chael. sonnen was talking so much smack it. maybe it was against vanderlei silva. i don't know it was one of those fights. where they they just didn't think he was. going to make it out of brazil yeah. yeah americans don't get it yeah. like people take some of that shit in. different parts of the world very very. seriously yeah. but that's what makes it beautiful.

that's uh that's what makes a great. story and i think fighting is very much. about the stories. not just about the the the particular. outcomes of a fight or the skill set. matching or like. the chess of the of the fight it's also. about the story. of the greater like. context of societies of warring we're. like warring cultures. we're still we're still go we're we're. no longer can have. great big hot wars between nations.

because of nuclear weapons this is our. wars that we can have. and uh you know in some sense i feel. robbed of the great war that could have. happened. it doesn't mean there aren't lots of. wars going on but yeah the big one is. not. gonna happen there's too much of a. balance of power with you know nuclear. weapons and technology and stuff. but it's not the end of war. no do you think there's always gonna be. war. i think there'll always be war. especially in underdeveloped parts of. the world.

um isn't there always underdeveloped. relatively parts of the world. yeah i mean at some point though you'd. think i mean the way that. you know uh technology is expanding and. we're bringing technology. to weird parts of the world that you. wouldn't. uh think of as technologically advanced. the way that uh. the chinese are inhabiting certain areas. for mining purposes and things like that. i think underdeveloped parts of the. world will get developed quickly. i just wonder like what the nature of.

that war might be it could be cyber. it could be all those kinds of things i. think in developed nations it's going to. be cyber i think that's probably the. next phase of war. but i mean i think you talk about parts. of the world like the middle east and. it's just still going to be. warring tribal factions we can't even. begin to understand what those. people are fighting about over there yet. yet everyone sitting in america on their. couch has an opinion. like you can't even begin to understand. it i i sure can't. yeah it's back to the principles. discussion when um. when when what's violated is much deeper.

than just kind of um. anything we can even in a middle class. existence. can't even comprehend a lot of times. american soldiers will go to war because. that's what they're told to do and they. maybe they disagree with the orders and. maybe they agree with the orders but i. get a sense that people in the middle. east fighting. all believe in what they're fighting for. it's not it's not a thing where. they're told to go do it i believe. they're they really believe that what. they're doing is the right thing and. they're defending some sort of principle. are you generally optimistic about the.

future. speaking of war of human civilization do. you think we'll. uh like. you know people talk about the fermi. paradox and asking. you know why haven't aliens visited us. if you believe they haven't visited us. you know one of the thoughts is that. there's a. kind of a great filter that intelligent. civilization reach a point. where it destroys itself naturally so.

that's why we haven't seen them they. don't last very long. there does seem to be a kind of. we seem to be advancing faster and. faster and faster we keep developing. more and more powerful ways of. destroying ourselves in all kinds of. ways. not even you know just even to say. nuclear weapons alone. but there's all kinds of new ways. engineer pandemics. nanotechnology agi. all those kinds of things it's.

it seems to be that uh the argument that. we. are going to destroy ourselves in some. kind of creative way very. shortly is uh not too crazy of an. argument to make. are you more optimistic or pessimistic. about the prospects of human. civilization in maybe the 22nd century. like is it possible that your generation. is the last generation to be alive on. earth. no but i wouldn't say that five. generations from now that won't be that.

that could be true. i guess i think of it really selfishly. i'm a big believer that. when your time here on earth is over the. overwhelmingly vast majority of people. will be forgotten within 12 calendar. months. people with no family will be forgotten. sooner and so i don't give a lot of. thought to what will happen to earth or. mankind when i'm gone. i'm i give more thought to maximizing my. time here. now and i want to do it in a way where. uh i don't um.

i'm not overtly hindering the future of. civilization or humankind. but i'm definitely taking a me first. approach to how i live on earth. do you have a philosophy behind why you. have or don't have kids. on this topic because for many people. when they have kids. there's a sense it's almost like a. genetic sense or something like that. where. all of a sudden you do start caring. about what happens five generations from. now.

i mean i think i'm just too selfish. i mean i'm that's i think that's the. easy answer. like i i know that your whole life has. to change you know your. your your focus everything shifts and. just don't want to do and also like i. think that there's a level of. i i guess if i have to like really. unpack it there's probably a level. of um lack of hope. in the future like i don't think it's i. don't think the world and humanity is.

going in the right direction. what does the right direction look like. i think the right direction. looks like people coming back together. in. in a more uh impactful. human way in person touching. feeling um talking face to face. so all the things you're describing is. what we had as you mentioned before when. you were like a teenager. yeah so the state of the world but. that's because your mind was formed then. it very well could be it very well could.

be it's very possible that the virtual. reality worlds that we'll create. will be actually a much higher level of. existence in fact like. now we're getting we're moving slowly. away from. tribalism perhaps you could argue the. ideas of nations. and we're going we're moving into the. realm of ideas. and it could be a higher form of. existence where we're sort of. uh moving past the constraints of our. meat vehicles. into the space of our minds it depends. what you value because when you sit here.

and you talk about it. you know and you're talking about these. things in these humongous levels. on these macro levels yeah and i don't. think a lot of people view it that way. i think a lot of people view it as like. what am i what kind of pizza am i. getting tonight. yeah like it's a it's a much different. outlook and sure. the the virtual world that's on the. horizon. i'm sure it's got benefits in what and. will help people but is it going to help. the things that you find valuable. like was it going to help commerce okay. sure is that the thing you find the most. valuable. is it going to help communication well.

it'll help disseminating information. is it going to help explain the. information you're disseminating. probably not. is it going to hinder interpersonal. communication absolutely and those are. things i find valuable. interpersonal communication talking to. people like the. like it saddens me when i go into a. restaurant and there's five-year-old. kids who like you know slamming away on. an ipad and can't make eye contact with. anybody. or teenagers who don't say please and. thank you when they order from the. waitress like. that to me is wrong that shit's wrong.

and. i don't know this for a fact but i do. attribute that to. you know using technology as a crutch. when we're raising. raising kids yeah you know i think those. are. those are things that i find valuable i. tried to empathize i mean i agree with. you as a person who grew up in a certain. age but like. uh prior to the internet i suppose uh. but or at least solidified the early. philosophies of the way i see the world. prior to the injury. during the time of aol let's put it this.

way. uh what was your aim screen name i never. had one okay. dude i i was the last person i knew to. get a cell phone i was so. anti all that stuff because i just felt. like. i didn't want to be a part of it i did. not want to be a part of it i. i joined the underground forum about mma. in 2000 or 2001 when i first started. training. i think right at the tail end i got a. myspace but i didn't have any of that. stuff and i didn't want any of it. i don't know why i just was i was not.

into it. i i felt like like what are the good. things that are going to come out of it. oh my i'm going to get my package in two. days instead of four days. does that make my life better i try to. uh i try to deeply empathize with a lot. of experiences of other people and like. one of the things. i love like the smell of paper books and. books in general. and early on this is like five years ago. i just gave away all my books. and i said you know i'm really going to. try to.

fall in love with the books in the same. way i did before but. now with a kindle or not a kindle like. paper white whatever the ee. reader e-reader and uh i'm still not. there. but i've been kind of trying to fall in. love with that experience and. the same way i try to think like. teenagers are really into tick tock now. like making these short videos. i try to consider the possibility that. their existence will be a much happier. one than i've had. because of this kind of interaction it's.

from my sort of skeptical perspective. it's like. the attention span is so short they. don't really deeply think or deeply. experience. things they construct a social layer. that they present to the world. and they work on creating this social. layer like. the presentation to the world much more. than really sitting alone with their. thoughts and the sadnesses and their. hopes and dreams and fears. and like working on the project that is. their. their own like actual person that exists.

in this physical world. as opposed to working on the project of. a particular social platform but they. show. but like perhaps that project. like who cares who you are in the. physical space maybe. what you are is what your instagram. shows that's the more important project. to work on well what's reality is. reality perception is reality right so. how other people perceive this. constructed thing that's their reality. of you but is it your reality like that. i mean like we said earlier it's. what what you want how you want people.

to see you. is very rarely in line with how you. really are or how you see yourself. and i mean i can remember being like a. 13 year old kid and like when you go. through a bunch of you know weird. 13 year old kid shit like sitting in my. room. like turning a red light on and. listening to like a sad record. and like you know trying to figure out. what's going on inside. sometimes you like it sometimes you. don't like it but i feel like. those experiences are lost on kids. constantly connected to a phone and like.

you know i don't know what the remedy. for those situations is nowadays like i. don't know do they make a tick tock. video do they. do they blog about it did they you know. make a video or. nobody blogs anymore bro whatever man or. oh a video a story about oh this is what. happened to me and blah blah blah. blah does that actually help them work. it out or does it just create more noise. and more static on how to get to the. root of the problem and learn about. themselves. i don't know what future social networks. are exactly i do know. on a shallow level it does feel good.

when somebody clicks like on something. i think that is more of a drug than an. actual deep. long-lasting fulfilling happiness but. perhaps there is a way to make a social. network that does lead to. long-lasting happiness that's somehow. detached from the physical. meat space i don't know but it feels. like you want to give that a chance. do you think when people are liking. things on social media. do you think there's just a group of. people an overwhelming majority of. people that are going to like whatever.

you put out there they're clicking like. and then there's another section of. people that just constantly scroll and. like. scroll and like and scroll and like like. do you think. when you get a like on content you put. out that that like perhaps came from. someone who normally. doesn't like your content but like. you've just changed their mind. on something or you you've turned them. around on it i tend to think that when i. get. likes on social media those are just the. people that like all my shit no matter. what i say. like they probably don't even read it. like i could you know put the most.

preposterous thing up there. and you're still gonna get a handful of. the same exact likes that's interesting. but i i tend to. the way i see likes you're kind of you. said multiple things. i think in one sense you see social. media as like a battleground of ideas. and like is it kind of indicate like the. best possible like is an indicator of. like. of the of you winning over somebody on. an idea and they really appreciate the. idea that's the best possible like. to me a like is just two strangers.

smiling at each other. like like a moment of like like. i got you bro yeah i got you bro yeah. yeah like. fist bump like yeah we're in this. fucking thing together. this whole thing doesn't make any sense. but we're in this together and. i yeah it's possible for likes to be. that i i don't. think the actual clicking of a like i. think social media at his best might be. that. where it's like i got you bro and it's a. large scale. as opposed to kind of uh this weird uh.

like crazy pool of dopamine where. everyone's just. obsessed with this likes and likes and. and then the division drives. like more of this like weird anxious. engagement i think that's just the dark. version of it in the early days of. social media. i think you called it uh a battleground. of ideas but i think social media is. nothing but a battleground of fragile. egos. well but humans are fragile egos i mean.

maybe but i think the people i think. particularly on social media. they're the most fragile like. would you be doing all the things you're. doing what would you be doing if you. weren't. um if you weren't podcasting. and posting the things you do on social. media. what would you be doing you'd probably. be much the same guy. right but i think that on social media. the fragile ego people what you see on.

social media is not what they'd be doing. without social media. does that make any sense like you're. you're probably your mission is probably. somewhat congruent in your path. you're just utilizing social media but i. think a lot of people. social media has changed their path and. and now they're doing something totally. foreign to them and they're only. able to do it maybe because of social. media i think you're focusing on a. particular. moment in time of people in their. less great moments like in their less.

great version of themselves. i think you're just focusing on the. masses struggling to. uh to become the best version of. themselves and then you. yeah sure for stretches of time whether. it's. days weeks or months you could be a. shitty person on the internet. i think you're. focusing on that and unfortunately. social media platforms. emphasize they love it when you're like. that when you're not doing great in your. own.

in your own life because it increases. anxiety increases engagement. makes you more susceptible to an. argument and then really get pulled into. like conspiracy theories all that kind. of stuff. but the other side works too i think. there's also the people who are on. social media like. fronting like they're these positive. figures and like you know. going to the gym like whatever it is the. positivity that they spew out but in. real life they're the most negative. fucks you've ever met in your life and. they're just so full of crap. and it's just you people playing to an. audience it's like you like you said.

like they. it's like a politician sometimes like a. politician wakes up one day and they. decide. who's the group i can pander to the best. to get the most. likes equals votes yeah and it's the. same thing on social media people wake. up and. whether it's conscious or not what's the. group i can pander to. the best to get the most likes is it the. positivity motivated crowd. is it the woe was me crowd like what is. it who's going to give me the most likes. that's what i'll do i i don't know how. to argue against that i. guess it's it's uh it rings.

true what you're saying but i just kind. of refuse to believe it. i guess i'm pandering to the optimistic. crowd. like i met with my marketing team and i. just feel that uh. uh love has the uh the best uh. what do you call it no i don't know. there's a lot of people that accuse me. of being like. exactly that which is like why are you. always being positive it's like. well because i i'd like to be that. yeah but i don't i wouldn't consider you. someone who panders.

no but you know it i guess what i'm. saying is like. uh it's easy to say that everyone is. pandering. but like maybe they're just trying. i i do believe that social media. platforms could encourage people when. they're trying to be the best version of. themselves whatever that. is it could be like conor mcgregor. talking shit it could be just being. positive. it could be actually creating cool. things in this world um. putting out instructional videos for jiu. jitsu or like inspiring students to. competition all i don't know.

all those kinds of things educational. content i i think that people are trying. like i i tend to believe that people. want to be. good like like they want to be. successful whatever that definition of. success is and they're kind of. struggling to do that and they're just. awkward at it at first. and like it's easy to focus on the. awkwardness and the. the stumbling around us people have that. and they start shitting on each other. like. it's easy to kind of focus in on that. but i think that's just like. people you know white belts there's more.

white belts in the world than there are. black belts but you gotta give them a. chance to kind of grow. i think on social media if you put your. stuff out there whatever your stuff is. your content your views or whatever. you let the chips fall where they may. like that's a different thing than being. like i'm gonna. i'm gonna tweak what i normally might. say and put it up this way because i. want these people to like it. and in terms i also think i have a. different. viewpoint than you do on people wanting. to be successful. i actually don't think that many people. want to be successful. i think people want to have the.

appearance of wanting to be successful. but to be successful takes a shitload of. work and most people don't want to put. that work in. so they craft this persona of a person. who's trying really hard. but just can't catch the break or you. know these motherfuckers with. getting back on my grind you've never. been on a grind. you've been on the couch i so disagree. with you i get it i get it. you you that's your foil you enjoyed. that guy in the couch with the cheetos. that's you that's that's your motivation. but just own it be like.

don't be like back on the ground be back. on the couch yeah. well you you you're like david goggins. who's like talking shit to the one guy. with the eating cheetos and in. in so doing inspires millions to like. to actually pursue their success i get. it but i just think that most people. really do want to be successful and are. like are trying to work hard and they. keep failing uh. so i mean but why is it why is it. continue i'm sorry to interrupt you. but like let's take a person who's. overweight yeah do you not think that.

person wants to be skinny of course they. want to be skinny. they just don't want it enough to put. the pizza or the pie down and go to the. gym. they want it but they want it to be easy. of course they want to be skinny well of. course he wants it to be easy right and. of course. people people want to be successful but. do they want it enough. to do the work i don't think they do i. think the easy thing to do is to. to create a uh an outward facing. persona of the person who really wants. it and you get the same reward.

from a lot of people as the person who. actually is successful. very few people differentiate from the. person who's found success. and and the person who's showing you how. they're trying to get success on social. media. people see that as the same i see i see. you're going after the marketing dollar. that represents the. the people that want to work hard yeah i. like it. uh you uh. started a podcast recently oh yeah. called which people probably from this.

conversation can. i guess we didn't really talk about. politics much or the fact that you're a. business owner the fact that you're a. red-blooded american. and love this country uh uh america. we wouldn't really talk about that but. from the name of the podcast they can. probably infer it and the name is please. allow me good name uh. what have you learned from doing this. podcast. what's your hope of doing this podcast. for people should definitely.

listen to you have a few episodes out. you're damn good at it. which is very interesting i'm sure. you'll evolve and change but. so this is like the early days i'm. curious to see where it goes. but what like what's your thinking. around it as a. as an intellectual putting your thoughts. out into the world. i think that one of the things that. covey did. um when we were all kind of in lockdown. was. as a business owner it made me take. stock of what's the future of brick and. mortar businesses. and i've always been reluctant to.

be an online presence in any way just. because it's not my thing because i. believe that i'm a force of nature and. people need to experience me. right and uh the the few characters that. twitter has or faces not enough to. experience not enough. the force of nature there's john clark. oh yeah right i want you to feel. physically uncomfortable around me i've. just been three hours of me being. physically uncomfortable. i'm scared for my life uh and so i. thought that. that would be one of the ways in which i. could increase like i i came to the. conclusion that.

with the the lockdown and potential. future lockdowns you know. uh in order to pay my mortgage and you. know my bar. tab and my grubhub's out of control. that i would need to find ancillary ways. to. doordash slash lex uh you don't want to. use grub pop grubhub sucks. they actually do doordash no i'm just. kidding just walk to your local. uh food or 7-eleven yeah and get and get. the food. you can order 7-eleven from door dash or. from post.

code lex okay i'm sorry um. but anyway i thought it was like oh i. should probably increase a little bit my. online. presence and what would be a way to do. that that. would be fun for me and entertaining and. i thought well. a lot of people yourself included that i. know have done some podcasts and i find. uh that inspiring and i'm fortunate. enough to know a bunch of cool. motherfuckers. that you know i can talk to about a lot. of a wide range of topics.

then they're starting to drop and. there's an aspect to which podcasting. does capture the force of nature. better in in the digital form podcasting. captures the force and nature of a human. being better than other mediums perhaps. yeah definitely there's that i i just. felt like. you know you know when it's midnight and. you're in the bar. and you get the sense that you know the. bar's gonna close in 90 minutes and you. think. you know not enough people have seen me. yet and maybe we should go to another. bar so more people can see me. yeah i feel like podcasting is like.

is like that for me not enough people. have heard my thoughts and i feel like. my mom raised me to be a giver she. didn't want me to be selfish. and i have these thoughts that i think. that i think could be a waste if you. didn't give it to the world people seem. to really enjoy them. yeah i enjoy well while i've probably. been on my best behavior today on on. this episode of the podcast. so if you want the uh the uncensored. unfiltered. uh the full spectrum that the force of.

nature is john clark. you go to do you go you go to the. podcast you funny enough. i think you're drinking throughout most. of the podcast yeah yeah. tequila so they only last like an hour. because you seem to like. i'm guessing that you just lose it one. hour like it's like cinderella turns. into a frog or. whatever one of the things i'm learning. is um. sometimes you have great conversations. when you're drunk and sometimes you. don't like i was. i went into it with the right drunk edit.

sober mentality. yes hemingway hemingway yes but. turns out that uh. sometimes you don't have that much to. edit when you're super shit-faced. and so uh i've been scaling that back a. little bit. and what do you mean exactly by that. like where does it go wrong when you're. drunk i'm curious about that because. uh it gets you especially when you have. a personal relationship with the person. that you're talking to. rather than trying to put some ideas on. display for other people to hear and.

maybe talk about. you wind up just having like a. conversation with your bro about inside. jokes and things like that and it's like. it's not that interesting no one wants. to like watch you know. go to a bar and watch two people at the. sitting there getting drunk and talking. to each other is different. than listening to uh like strong. discourse. yes one interesting thing as a fan of. joe rogan i'm a fan i've been a fan of. joe rogan for a long time and he has his. friends over. a lot right and there there's a aspect. to those three four or five hour. conversations that i really enjoy.

there's a magic to those i think he. taught the world that those kinds of. long-form conversations can work. the what you forget is joe rogan is a. comedian. his friends are also celebrities like. they know what it's like to be on the. mic they know. there is a challenge to actually having. your friends on the microphone. like they're they've never this is the. first time they've been on a microphone. yeah and that's actually what you've. been doing which is a very. interesting experiment and uh. you find that some are more awkward than.

others like they're trying to find like. what do i do with this kind of thing why. why do you not talk to strangers why did. you go with people that you're actually. no so the simple answer is the people. that i selected are both interesting and. i thought would be good at talking. but then i noticed the thing you just. mentioned my buddy paul did the first. one and paul's a wild man. and if you went out with paul he can. talk about a bazillion. topics to a certain to to a significant. uh level of depth right he's got a good.

understanding and he's got a unique. perspective on a lot of things. um and i think. he was the first guy invited on my. podcast. and it was almost like. he was on a little bit less than natural. about it and then by the time he. loosened up with some drinks. he was it just we were all shit-faced. there's. there's a phase shift though totally. yeah totally. and so he's gonna come back on and he'll. be more comfortable with it and uh and. it'll probably be awesome because he's a.

great person to talk to. um i had my friend dave on who's a. restaurant and a musician. that that one will be released pretty. soon but yesterday i had a guy on who. you might really enjoy listening to. who's a friend of mine his name is mark. clem. he's an endurance athlete and he's been. compared. he's been called the white dave goggins. and um. he talks about like those comparisons. and what he hates about it. and the various events and stuff and. he's just a guy who's just always kind. of like natural. and like i knew he'd be great to get on.

the podcast and um. so i started with friends who i thought. could handle it. and who also are just really interesting. people. and uh and i i did it so that i could. also establish a level of comfort. because it was a new thing for me. and they i knew that they wouldn't. really give a shit what i was doing and. be like hey this is cool i'm going over. jc's house we're gonna drink some. tequila and talk shit there's just gonna. be a microphone there this time. i mean it's amazing what you're doing. the freedom of it i mean you're not. currently doing. advertisements or any of that kind of. stuff you're just exploring your voices.

one of the mediums that you're just. trying it out my 11 subscribers know. what i'm about you're 11 subscribers. it's in the double digits yeah uh. for both you and i do you have advice. for me as a podcaster. and for yourself as a podcast like if. you if you were to think like you're. gonna do. say i mean who knows but say you do a. thousand more episodes. right like imagine a world where that. that your life continues in that. direction that this is like.

a little parallel to like for me this. thing is like a little side hobby but. it's also. one that's deeply fulfilling um so not. just from a. business perspective which is not the. way i think about it i just think from a. life. human perspective it's i probably. wouldn't have this kind of conversation. with you off mike. like this long this deep this attentive. there's something really fulfilling. about these conversations so. what advice would you have for me what. advice do you have for yourself or have. you not introspected this. that deeply oh i have a lot i have.

advice i think the. first advice i would give to you is i. think you should uh have me on more. often. yes yeah that's. first first and second is go on your. podcast and uh. well i would say i would say you come on. my podcast when you're ready. yeah when you feel like the product that. i'm putting out. uh would benefit from your presence and. vice versa. not not as a not as a favor to a bro.

but at the right time i i do sense. actually it's an interesting. there's a dance to it which is uh like. joe i recently did like joe rogan. had a conversation with me on this. podcast there's a very specific kind of. thing. where you you're helping each other out. yeah but the timing on that has to be. right right you know like. uh right if that makes any sense you're. like supporting each other. it doesn't make sense it doesn't it. doesn't make a difference you would. think.

right because it's it's just people. talking it doesn't matter what. microphones. but it changes things it does and. there's an order to the guests that i've. had on. and the next guest that i'll have on. will be a. a friend we have in common and we'll be. talking about teaching how to teach. different styles of teaching and what. you're teaching all these other things. do you mind saying who oh sean fisher. and um. i think there's an order to it's not. scientific but it's based on my gut. is it uh astrologically based uh.

what do you mean it's not scientific. you're you're god so you have a sense uh. like joe rogan for example tries to do. left right he tries to alternate like. this this gut feeling. of like these bins of people and he. tries to alternate. world views that's interesting like he. kind of so. he doesn't feel like it that like it. shake it constantly shakes him it's it's. more about him. like constantly pulls him in multiple. directions about like. how he sees the world and that keeps him.

balanced. that keeps the conversation kind of. exciting that's interesting i i did it. in a way where. i knew paul was going to be wild and we. might get a little out of control and. like have some technical. hiccups along the way and then my friend. jake who's a ceo of a pharmaceutical. company. that was very timely because uh you know. he was able to speak to vaccines and. that was kind of scientific. flavored yeah and what i learned. listening back on that. is like i learned for myself about uh. i wasn't asking the next level questions.

to really draw out great answers and. part of it is. uh i you're simultaneously hanging out. with a bro but also i was trying to. learn something and i didn't learn what. i wanted to learn. and that's my fault because i didn't ask. the questions he's an expert in that. field he doesn't know that i'm. an absolute dipshit when it comes to. that stuff and so i didn't do a good job. and if i don't know it that means. the thing i was trying to tease out of. him no one who is going to listen is. going to learn that either. yeah so i learned that um and then i had.

the one with soap on which i thought. was was pretty good um there's a. wrestler there's also a farmer. right and he's a social worker and kind. of humble and. and thoughtful yeah thoughtful. thoughtful guy like slower. not a wild man that kind of thing not a. wild man in the sense that i'm wild but. he does preach this. this philosophy of being more wild like. being. in touch with nature nature that that. that kind of work. right right right and then my buddy dave. he came. on um you know because i love music.

and i wanted to talk a lot about music. and he's one of the most knowledgeable. people. about music that i know and he's got a. restaurant coming up and. i thought my buddy mark clem being an. endurance athlete like when you hear. some of the. i didn't even know these things existed. that this fucking kid did he's out of. his mind. and you know i think shawn and i will. have probably the most intellectual. conversation that i'll have had on my. podcast. to date and so there's a little bit of. alternating there but. um you know i did it that way.

uh so that there's a guy there's a gut. feeling behind oh so that what is there. where are you going do you know where. you're going uh. i'm i don't have a destination but i. want to. i want to see it to its end whether. that's. uh it gets somewhere of its own volition. or it takes on a new life at some point. and then i know how to drive it where it. needs to go. i think the advice i have for both of us.

is um i think i. need to no. i don't think so i think for you i see. an inner turmoil. i see a storm that bruises you because i. feel like. there's a concern for what you're saying. and is it gonna get. is it gonna is it gonna lead to. uh negative feelings towards you or the. thing that you're doing. and i feel like.

we're different people and i have such. an easier time saying fuck off to. everybody. and that's a liberating thing but it. also. can can keep me from achieving the thing. that i want to achieve. because i'm so flippant with opinions. that i don't listen to them and let them. direct me when they should there's a. balance. let me push back on that please i think. you you believe that about yourself and. nevertheless your social media presence. indicates otherwise if i were to be very.

harsh you're like one of those. you know mentally strongest character. wise people i know. and yet on social media you don't put. your face to the world. no one of the reasons you sense the fear. in me. which exists i of course want to let go. of it. is because i put my face on like my my. name on. things and so when i say something. stupid. it it hurts when people did say. like look that guy said something stupid.

and so there's a fear of saying. something stupid. in all of his different forms uh like. of being my lesser so it's the same. feeling i have in competition of like. of losing not just losing losing doesn't. matter it's. embarrassing myself i like losing uh. being the lesser version of myself. and when you put yourself out there in a. full way i think you would i. i would venture to say you're also. because you like said you you don't. you wouldn't give yourself that advice i. feel like you're also afraid of standing.

behind some of the ideas. because right now you're doing guerrilla. warfare you're you're free to. to uh to be uh to say things. to speak your mind from the sidelines. but the moment you're standing and like. when people can throw shit at you. i feel like uh you haven't faced that. far yet you've been like avoiding that. fire i'm not sure. maybe i'm projecting no to a degree. you're right i think like a big thing. for me was putting like. ads on for like our our jiu jitsu online.

uh. like um curriculum that was a big thing. uh for me because for several reasons. like in the climate of. everyone under the sun having a you know. a jiu jitsu tutorial online. and social media not social media. necessarily but forums specifically that. uh critique and shit the bed one thing i. have not done that i've thought about. doing and probably. you're right in your analysis of it is. i've not gone the way that. i do see you on things like reddit and. say hey reddit i'm doing this.

like i could easily go to red and say. hey reddit uh i got this website up here. here's a sample video whatever the fuck. people do on there but yeah you're right. i haven't done that. and part of it might be because i i. i know also if i get suckered in for one. second into the negativity. i'm going to become an online warrior. and i don't want to be that person. so yeah you're probably self-aware about. that i mean one of the things. i've early on decided is like i'm just. gonna be.

i've always really enjoyed being. positive so i'm going to make sure. i stay that way and when there's. negativity it's like. i'm not just ignoring it i'm literally. just returning it with positivity. i like no i probably am the same way as. you most people are. with with egos you get you want to. become the warrior against the. negativity and. uh like like many wars there's no. winning. right there's no winning that was posted. online especially on the internet and uh.

so in that sense that's that's been a. journey to try to. to face the fire of the negativity. and it's not actually that bad it sounds. like very dramatic there's not many. people that are negative but. it's like when you put advertisements so. you put your face on an instructional or. something like that right. it just there's an aspect to it which. you're being a salesman you're being a. gimmicky thing right it just feels wrong. and people will point out look that guy. is a fraud like it's fake look he's. trying but those people are going to be.

out there and if you're like. trying to do your best trying to be. authentic and not trying to like. be a a snake oil salesman. and being like the shady kind of. salesman um. i think they keep you honest they keep. you being the most. authentic self and podcasting is like. the best medium because you're being. real those. one hour plus that you put out there. that's like. real john that's not a.

like people people fall in love with. that and that that's that the beautiful. aspect of podcasting is. there's no long form doesn't give any. possibility for you not to be authentic. right. and that's why it's a magical medium the. the tough thing. is you're not you know popularity. takes time right now popularity and so. like you should shouldn't be doing it. for that reason. and i don't it's not the thing that.

really uh drives me yeah. is there three books technical fiction. philosophical that had an impact on you. like is there books that you kind of. return to that you enjoy. and never had you know you find profound. in some way i would say like. probably the thing i read is in one of. emerson's essays that i read at a. you know point in my life where i needed. that type of thing. and i read self-reliance and you know. he's got a ton of good essays but i. thought self-reliance was probably. the most impactful to me um.

you know i've read later in life like a. handful of. you know existential authors and they're. all great. but at the time a lot of it has to do. with timing. and when i read self-reliance and it was. about the individual. uh that was really good and made it was. uh. impactful there's also a book called uh. jonathan livingston seagull. by richard uh richard bach i think and. um. it's kind of along the same lines it's. about this seagull who you know wants to. break conformity and.

learn to fly and do all these other. great things and so it's a very short. read so if people are interested in that. that's good. uh the book which i was. lucky enough to read before the movie. ever even came out. which is just a a pleasure of mine was a. american psycho. just from a writing standpoint yeah i. found that the writing was. was awesome uh brett easton ellis who's. the author of that and several other. books who have like intertwining. characters. uh he's a new england prep school guy. and so a lot of like the stories and a.

lot of the. the visuals uh rang true for me. and anyone who can write four pages of. prose on like a huey lewis album i mean. kudos to you. and i also would say no one will do this. but i would at some point. read as much of one of the big three. religious texts. as possible it really gives you. perspective there's so many overlapping. stories in the in. in of religious texts and then the way.

that they're. written gives you a unique perspective. on. different people uh throughout the world. and you know if you're a roman catholic. maybe. don't read the bible read one of the. other texts and that would be an. interesting take. but i'm embarrassed to say that first of. all i've never read the bible which is. embarrassing to say it's like i read a. bunch of stuff about the bible not the. bible itself and the same. not equating them but i haven't read. marx. directly i haven't read mineconf by. hitler directly.

and it feels like sometimes because you. think like it's better to read stuff. about the books but ultimately you want. because like the analysis will be better. in the texts. that uh followed it but there's value to. actually reading like the actual words. uh yeah there's this power in the words. that uh there's a reason why like the. bible. is one of the most impactful books ever. you know and it's it's in it's in those.

words. and it's uh of value to return to those. words the communist manifesto is truly. frightening if you read it in. in like modern context. it's worth reading yeah we're three. years so is mineconf. not obviously well uh it's not obvious. but. it is not very well written uh but all. the ideas that led to the evil that is. hitler. are all in there which is uh fascinating. to think about because. probably some of the world leaders at. the time should have probably read the.

books he he outlined everything he's. going to do. you've mentioned offline you mentioned. an emerson quote i really like. so let's try to end on this powerful. quote. it's easy in the world to live after the. world's opinion it's easy and solitude. to live after your own. the great man is who in the midst of the. world keeps with perfect sweetness the. independence of solitude. what does this quote mean to you uh it's. kind of uh reinforces the idea that.

you're here to live your life and that. even when people are trying to. influence you or. comment on the decisions that you make. for your life you should have the. strength to stick by. living your life the way you want to. live it that. there's one immutable truth for you and. it doesn't apply to everyone. and so people who um. people who frown upon.

or judge the way that you live because. it's not. air quotes conventional uh their opinion. should not be something that impacts the. choices that you make. you're in a relationship now yes is that. deeply meaningful. or is it are you ultimately still alone. is this are you still just a man. in the cold of the of the life that is. suffering. no i'm a man who's warm nestled in a. bosom.

i don't think there's a better way to. end uh john. uh you're a friend you're my coach. i'm sure we'll talk many more times in. the future thanks for wasting all your. time with me today thanks brother thanks. alex i had an awesome time hope to be. back soon. thanks for listening to this. conversation with john clark and thank. you to our sponsors. theragun the device i use for. post-workout muscle recovery. magic spoon low-carb keto friendly. cereal that i think is delicious.

eight sleep a mattress that cools itself. and gives me yet another reason. to enjoy sleep and finally cash app the. app i use to send money to friends. please check out the sponsors in the. description to get a discount and to. support this podcast. if you enjoy this thing subscribe on. youtube review it with five stars and. apple podcast. follow on spotify support on patreon or. connect with me on twitter. at lex friedman and now let me leave you. with some words. from miyamoto musashi think.

lightly of yourself and deeply. of the world thank you for listening and. hope to see you. next time. you.