Jocko Willink: War, Leadership, and Discipline | Lex Fridman Podcast #197

the following is a conversation with. jaco willink a retired u.s navy seal. co-author of extreme ownership dichotomy. of leadership. discipline equals freedom and many other. excellent books. and he's the host of jaco podcast. jacob spent 20 years in the seal teams. he was the commander. of seal team 3's task unit bruiser. that became the most highly decorated. special operations unit. of the iraq war this conversation was. intense. and to the point we agreed to talk again.

probably many times. and what i find very interesting aside. from the talk. of leadership is the conversation about. military tactics. of specific battles in history quick. mention of our sponsors. linode indeed simply safe and ground. news check them out in the description. to support this podcast. since it's the 4th of july a holiday in. the united states. let me say a few words about what this. country. my country the united states of america.

means to me. first by way of background i was born. and raised in the soviet union. just long enough to get a bit of the. russian soul an appreciation of soviet. history. music culture of wrestling and. mathematics. of engineering and philosophy stoicism. and humor. tragedies and triumphs of war and. revolutions. all in ways that are uniquely russian i. do. happen to at times mention that i'm. russian. this is what i mean that i got a bit of.

that. russian soul but of course who i really. am. is an american this country gave me the. opportunity. the freedom to become and to be who i am. to stand. as an individual this seemingly simple. freedom to be a sovereign human being in. the face of. all the beauty and cruelty of life is. why i love this country. much of life can be unfair unjust even. tragic. but this is the country where if i'm. clever enough.

work hard enough and just get lucky. enough i have a chance to dream big. and make my dream a reality the united. states welcomed me. my family and millions of immigrants. throughout its history. so that we can make something meaningful. of ourselves to love to dream to create. to find joy and meaning it lets me be. the weird kid i am. who wears a suit talks about love and. has a. fascination with robots i know some. people these days. have an aversion to pride and love for. their country.

i don't i love america i also love. humanity. i believe these two patriotism and. humanism are not in conflict much like. loving your family and loving your. country are not in conflict. they are all manifestations of the human. spirit longing to strive. for a better world i was born a russian. but i believe i'll die an american a. proud american. hopefully not too soon but uh life is. short i already had one hell of a fun.

journey. so i'm ready to go when it's time this. is the lex friedman podcast and here. is my conversation with jocko willink. is it tragic or beautiful to you that. some of the closest bonds that are. formed. between people are through war often. i think it's both both tragic and. beautiful. and for the obvious reasons. what are the obvious reasons why is it.

so obvious. well it's tragic because a lot of people. die. and it's beautiful because you form. bonds with people that. are very difficult to break once you've. been through them what is it about. the trauma of war that makes bonds. difficult to break. because what you realize when you're in. the war. is that the people that are next to you.

you rely on them and they're relying on. you to survive. and without them you will not survive. and when you realize that you need to. work together as a team. to to live. that forms a very strong bond and. there's nothing like that team. outside of the realm of war. i don't know because i've there's a lot. of things that i haven't experienced in. my life.

but i think the pressure and the. consequences. of war there could be similar situations. in survival scenarios in various. atrocities. where people need to work together. in order to survive and i think you. could probably get something that was. similar there's a very particular nature. to the kind of war that world war. ii was especially for the soviet union. where it didn't just. influence the lives of people it created.

culture. the music the poetry the literature it's. it's in the. um it's in the way people think. it's in the way people see the world. it's in the way they talk even still to. this day. and um. of course i was talking about the. directly relationship between two. soldiers. but there's something about the depth of. human connection. that results from those almost like uh.

reverberations of war like generations. later you're still. close to other humans you're you're. there's a coldness towards other humans. like. in russia but once you open. up its depth you seek depth. of connection versus like breadth of. career kind of thinking how can i make. friends with this so i can move into. this direction what can this person. benefit me you. instead you seek a depth of human.

connection and appreciation that that. brings a lot. and maybe i'm romanticizing war here. but it feels like that's inextricably. connected to world war ii. for russians is this does that resonate. at all is it. so if you look at military training. what they do is they take people in the. military from the civilian world they. bring them into the military and they. put them through. boot camp which is the stereotypical. thing that you see on tv you're going to.

get yelled at you're going to get. screamed out you're going to get. you're gonna get put in the mud and. you're gonna made to be made to do hard. things together. and what does that do with those. civilians well it gives them a common. background. it gives them a common suffering that. they've been through together. and they form some sort of connection. some sort of bond. now to make that bond a little bit. stronger. after you get done with boot camp they. send you to advanced infantry school.

and you suffer some more together. and when you suffer more together now. you're in a smaller group too because. now it's. infantry it's not supply people anymore. or logisticians it's. strictly people that are going to. fight their infantrymen so they go. through a school together and now they. get a little bit tighter. get done with that and maybe you go to. an airborne division so you go to. airborne school and now you all. overcome this fear of jumping out of an.

airplane together and you celebrate. surviving that. then maybe you get done with that and. now you go at an airborne division now. you're an even tighter group because. you've. suffered together what comes next is. special forces training or ranger. training and what they do is they put. you in these situations where. you're going to suffer together and. you're going to build these bonds. because as i said earlier you have to. rely on each other to survive. and by the way not everyone does not. everyone makes it through this training. so you sort of have these memories of. people that didn't make it you.

share that connection as well and you. can keep going down this road until you. go into combat. with a military unit and military units. that go through combat. have an even tighter bond and the harder. the combat that they go through the. tighter the bond is going to be. so i think when you talk about what the. soviet union went through in world war. ii. there was a shared suffering. to survive and so the entire nation.

has that common thread and that's. probably the thing that you. sense or feel when you refer back to. the bond that resonates all the way back. to. world war two so in your podcast in your. writing. you talk about some of the most. fascinating things i listen to you. talk about in terms of military conflict. is uh tactics and sort of the details. of of combat.

but allow me to stick on world war two. for a second. there's a particular aspect to that war. i don't know if you can speak to it. where twice the number of civilians died. in military personnel. so the soviet union especially. um you know my uh. my grandfather was a machine gunner on. uh. the in um ukraine as the.

germans were marching towards moscow. there's this main there's. this important push in 1941 where they. were trying to get before the winter to. uh to moscow. and what stalin was doing is he was. basically throwing bodies. at at uh to slow the attack. and what that meant is everybody. understood that you. your job was you have this heavy machine. guns. it's very it's almost unreasonable to be. able to be mobile any kind of way with.

them. so you're you're throwing at the front. and you're just non-stop. shooting and you know 95 plus percent of. people are just dead. other soldiers are just dead and then. you just go back. back and you're trying to protect as. many civilians as you can throughout. this whole process but you don't. and so you have millions of civilians. that die along the way into this march. is there something you can say about. this complete perhaps it's naive for me. to say but.

a war that lacks tactics. that lacks strategy. and is purely about just. no consideration of human life and just. throwing bodies. and bullets into a mix together where. millions die. and that in particular felt much less. like.

conflict and much more like. torture or suffering. it didn't it didn't come off as torture. only that. interestingly enough as you probably. know my grandfather including everybody. else. volunteered they were proud to do this. they were proud to march to their death. for country for love of country. but the question on the civilian side.

when. when more civilians die the military. personnel what do you make of that. it's awful and it's awful when. a soldier dies it's awful when a. civilian dies. it's awful when 10 civilians or 10. soldiers and it's. even more awful when millions and. millions of soldiers and civilians die. i think it's safe to say that the soviet. union was facing an existential threat. to their existence against the nazis.

so to not fight. would be to die as well maybe die a. death a few years later. maybe die a different way but. the choice was die now trying. or die later on your knees. and i think the choice was pretty clear. as far as the. tactics go i mean there is.

this is attrition warfare that's what. that is we are going to. keep you know you said throwing bodies. at the problem. that's attrition warfare and the soviet. union had. a lot of bodies more than the germans. and when you fight with attrition. warfare whoever has more men and. material will eventually win. it's an awful it's an awful way. but that's the that's that's what the. strategy was you often talk about. leadership.

let's put the evils of hitler aside. the boldness of hitler in making some of. the strategic decisions he did. was considered by many military. historians quite brilliant. early in the war are insane. and brilliant stalin on the other hand i. think universally is seen as somebody. who is. terrible military strategist especially. early in the war.

he did not see all the possible. trajectories that the war could take. is there something you could say about. failure of leadership. stalin also the united kingdom. before churchill and also fdr on the. united states side. who basically. was trying to turn a blind eye to. everything that was happening over. over there with a perspective of. we just want to make we want to keep.

america's interests. uh as the primary interest and. everything else let other countries work. out their problems. you know i think one of the things with. hitler was in the beginning of the war. he listened to. his advisors he listened to his generals. and. therefore they did pretty well with that. i think as the war went on. he believed that he was smarter than he. was. and made decisions that were bad. that cost him dearly.

you know i mean case in point as. everyone knows going and attacking the. soviet union. while you're still fighting a war on the. other front is not not a good move. there's an example of yeah bad. leadership letting your ego get in the. way. believing that you can do things that. you that are beyond your capabilities. but you know as you mentioned in the. beginning with blitzkrieg. those were really dynamic and bold moves. and they worked. and that what does that do that fuels. your ego and makes you think that.

you can win many people consider that. war. a just war. what do you think makes it just war. i think you have the nazis and the. imperial japanese. trying to impose their will on other. nations and other peoples. and when that happens i think on a grand. scale. people look at that and. believe it's just to step in and do. something about it.

is there some gray area here there's. there's nothing but gray area. the united states has been involved in a. lot of military conflicts since then. how do you draw the line to the grey. area. what what war should we engage in and. not. i know you don't get into politics much. but. what the decision to go to war you have. to look at the situation that you're. going into and you have to make sure. that you have.

the will to go to war and. the will to go to war means that you are. willing to kill people. and when i say people i don't just mean. enemy because in war. civilians are going to die women and. children are going to die. every a lot of people are going to die. and so you and you are going to kill. them. it doesn't matter what kind of smart. munitions you have doesn't matter how. disciplined your soldiers are. when you go into a war civilians are. going to die and you have to understand.

that. and the other thing that you have to. understand is that. your troops are also going to die. and it seems like sometimes we're a. little bit naive about the calculation. of what that's going to look like. and maybe we think well not that many. civilians and maybe not that many of our. our personnel are going to die and. that's where you get into. sticky situations and you know another. thing when you were talking about.

the soviet union versus the nazis. that's total war that's what that is and. we don't engage in that very often it's. total war. it's we will do absolutely anything to. win. and america doesn't fight like that very. often. in fact the last time we fought like. that was world war ii. we it was total war we will do whatever. it takes. to up to and including the atomic bomb. to destroy the enemy so. those are the kind of things you need to.

think about before you go to war. and i don't think we think about that. very often. you know even the united states the. atomic bomb. nuclear weapons is an interesting one. because there's a lot of. there's a lot of hesitation on that. there's a lot of critics of that. decision as it was happening. so even america you can imagine other. countries like germany would not be so. hesitant. to use nuclear weapons.

it's interesting to think about. in deciding military strategy to inject. ethics into it. into morality it's not just about. winning the war but. should we do this and doing the. calculation of human life. usually those decisions are made by. leaders. not by the the soldier that's going to. be implementing.

that the the that decision do you put. some responsibility. i should even say blame on the leaders. and not doing that kind of calculation. here you could say that. you could say about the vietnam war you. could say that about even the war that. you're involved with in iraq. is there some criticism here that you. could apply to leaders. for failing not to consider the broader. moral questions. yes.

natural like all leaders will make these. mistakes. or should leaders not make these. mistakes. leaders are going to make mistakes it's. impossible to know what's going to. happen in war. just like it's impossible to know what's. going to happen in life you make that. you make decisions based on the. information that you have at the time. and you will make mistakes and if you. fail to. admit that you made a mistake that's. where i have a more significant problem.

than someone that makes a mistake and. says hey this is the mistake that i made. this is the intelligence that i thought. we were utilizing. and it actually is not what i thought it. was going to be. and here's the new direction that we're. going in. we don't have enough of that. type of ownership in. in leadership globally. just saying i made a mistake.

that resulted in the loss at scale of. human life. being able to say that and when you. don't say that. you end up with a more loss of human. life. can i ask you about the loss of human. life. how does killing a human being change. you. what does it mean to kill a human being. what does it feel like to kill a human. being.

well i mean i guess you'd have to look. at what circumstances a person's in. when this is taking place if you've got. someone that's in a. fit of rage that goes and kills somebody. you know they're going to come out of it. and think wow i just really messed up. if you've got a someone that is a. sociopath right they're not going to. feel anything and. that person deserved to die and that's.

why they died if you've got a. soldier who feels like they're trying to. protect their friends. they'll move through that if you've got. a soldier that's doing it because they. want some kind of. personal glory they'll probably not feel. good about it later. so i think it depends on the situation i. think it depends on the psychology of. the individual that's going through it. he said move through that.

is there some calculation here that a. soldier. when they kill another soldier a. realization that is. just another human being i mean is there. some. heavy burden to that aspect. that it's ultimately just human on human. i think it depends a lot on the scenario. i know that when i was in iraq fighting.

you we we talk a lot about the. dehumanization. of the enemy and it's something that the. governments will do i mean governments. and will do that to each other i mean. the. the japanese dehumanized the americans. and the americans dehumanized the. japanese. and the americans dehumanized the nazis. and the nazis dehumanized the americans. so that to remove as much of that human. on human. killing aspect that you're talking about.

and what i what i've said is that. in when we were in iraq we didn't have. to dehumanize the enemy because the. the enemy dehumanized themselves through. their actions through their behaviors. when when. we know that they are torturing and. raping. and murdering the local populace. they've been dehumanized and so as far. as. looking at them and thinking oh this is.

a you know a human another human that's. that's on the level of you know my. my uncle or my brother. i did i didn't think of them out that. way i thought of them as. as murdering raping. evil. sub-humans yeah iraq is different. and america's position is different. you're right that america has not been.

involved in a war where it's quite like. two humans fighting like teenage boys. fighting against each other. and you've got to remember i mean we're. we're seeing. these iraqi kids that are living under. this. sadistic sadistic terror. the iraqi women that are being. raped and abused by these insurgents. and so on the one side we become.

the the iraqi populace is very. humanized to us because we're talking to. them we've got interpreters. we understand we're seeing them day. after day the same individuals. and so we form a bond with the local. populace. and yet we see what the insurgents are. doing. and so it's again not difficult. to dehumanize people that behave in that. manner. yeah i suppose i'm i worry about the.

dehumanization at a much larger scale. when it's not the kind of case that. you're talking about even now. hopefully i'm not fear-mongering but. there's a sense in which there's the. drums of war slowly starting to build. with china there. in the best case it would be a cold war. of there's a dehumanization aspect.

that's happening with china currently. which is they're the other and they're. after stealing all of your data there's. a cyber security it starts with cyber. security and it. it worries me because it creates the. other out of. a very large population. that that may ultimately lead to. conflict. in the worst case hot conflict that. would no longer be. the situation you are in in iraq and.

more. similar to the soviet union conflict. with the. with germany that its kids. and then they're dehumanized to where. you're at scale slaughtering them or at. least. hurting their quality of life in a way. that's uh maybe. you know suffering has many forms it. doesn't have to be through just a hot. war it could be um. through starvation through camps.

all those kinds of things and i worry i. worry about that. we kind of tend to think that these wars. are behind us. and i'm not always so sure that's the. case. and at least in the way that uh it. ultimately starts with hate. and if again hopefully i'm not being too. dramatic. but i i see that there's a kind of. brewing. of uh it starts with dehumanization and. turns to hate. of the other you see that with china you.

see it a little bit with russia. and uh you have an early podcast between. the the. where you break down the tactics of the. chechen war versus russia it's. fascinating. but that's the kind of conflicts i'm. referring to and um. i don't know um there's a i know you're. a bit of a musician uh. i love uh i love dad straight song. called brothers in arms i don't know if. you know that one.

and there's a line in it i think they. they play it uh quite often in military. funerals which i just recently learned. but. it's this powerful song as a line um. we're fools. to make war on our brothers in arms. do you think there's some sense in which. at the leadership level but just as. human beings. were perhaps foolish and engaging. in military conflict. as much as we have.

or is full a very inappropriate word. here. well i think the using the term brothers. in arms means. the people that are on my side right so. it doesn't make sense. to start wars with people that are on. your side. so that's that might just be the way the. lyrics are written so that it. fit the song or whatever um i think. broadly what you're asking me is. is war foolish yeah.

and i would say the answer is yes and if. you can avoid it you absolutely should. but if there is a. bear or a wolf that is trying to get. into your house. is it foolish to shoot that bear or. shoot that wolf. i think the answer is pretty obvious so. when. you're you're threatened or your family. are threatened or your way of life is. threatened. then you have to do something to.

try and defend your family your way of. life. it should be the last resort should be. the last resort. you had a conversation with jordan. peterson. where he asked you a question. in terms of war being last resort. whether you would like your kids to grow. up. in peace in a time of no war. you said yes but and so happens jordan.

didn't let you finish. can you um can you elaborate what. follows the butt. well you you and i have been talking. about the fact that struggle. brings people together and and brings. out the best and. and the worst brings out the worst in. people war brings out the worst people. it also brings out the best in people. so would you want your kid. to go and enter in a wrestling.

tournament. where you paid all the. other kids off and your kid won. or you enter them in a jiu jitsu. tournament where. they're a purple belt and you know that. everyone that they're going to fight. against is a white belt. and so they get the they get the big w. they get the win. but they don't really get tested and. they don't really struggle and if you. don't struggle you don't grow.

so that's the but right. the the absolute best. times of my life. were in combat and the worst times of my. life. were in combat and so even though i. wouldn't want any of my children to. suffer through the worst of times. at the same time the bud is i would want. them to. have the opportunity to feel that bond.

that you're referring to. earlier and to see human beings. that are willing to sacrifice their. lives for their friends. you mentioned the worst what are some of. the worst aspects. of when you were in iraq what are the. things that um. the hardest on you. have my guys killed. is there uh absurd cruelty to it.

was it due to mistakes or natural. consequences of fighting. is there any difference is that at the. end is just losing those or. brothers in arms there's a million. different ways to get killed in the war. and you can go out in an operation and. you can do everything. wrong and you can survive and you can go. out in an operation and do everything. perfect and you can get killed.

is there some aspect which makes it. worse when there's mistakes made. well yeah if there's mistakes made then. you're gonna sit there and. beat yourself up eternally for mistakes. that were made. but to you the things that hurt is just. losing. losing people close to you yes. are you yourself afraid of death no. do you think about it does it make sense.

to you that this thing. ends like do you uh the stoics. contemplate a death it gives flavor to. life it makes you appreciate. there's something about finiteness of. life that makes it. that makes it this uh. jocko discipline go drink sour apple. that i'm enjoying. it's delicious makes it taste better. because i'm going to die one day. and i think about that a lot do you. think about it.

other than i know that it's gonna end. i mean but i don't think about it on a. daily basis i think about just the fact. i think about i know that i'm lucky to. be here. i know that many people sacrificed to. give me this opportunity. to be here so. but i don't dwell on it. what about when you were in combat. nothing. there's there's tactics there's strategy.

there's the mission. and then your immortality. is not part of the calculation i think. you get to a point where you. accept the fact that you can die. like i i you know like i said you can do. everything right you roll out the gate. you hit an ied. a triple stack subsurface ied and you're. dead you're done. and there's nothing that's going to stop. that it's going to happen and. i think if you're scared of that or. you're thinking about that.

it's going to inhibit your ability to do. your job properly. and i think it's also going to drive you. crazy the thing that i thought about. more was that happening to. my guys and that's the gut-wrenching. terror that you feel. when when operations happen. can i ask you about love of country is. it's uh. it continues to. just how much i've studied stalin. recently in the past. few years it continues to surprise me.

not surprise me it's just tragic in some. kind of way i'm. not sure exactly if i could put wars to. it but how many people and still do but. at the time. were willing loved stalin and were. willing to die. for country for the love of country and. i. too maybe because i was born there. and now i am a red-blooded american.

uh i love nationalism is a bad word but. i love the love of country. it gives it somehow gives a meaning. like a brotherhood like we're in this. together. i love that's why i love the olympics. that's just the the unity of it. it uh takes a step out of the selfish. pursuits of. any one particular ant and looks at us.

as a big ant colony. and it's inspiring it's uh it's exciting. but at the same time it seems to get us. to do. horrible things if um. if uh manipulated by charismatic leaders. what do you make of this love of country. is it a is it a bad thing is it a thing. that gets in the way. or is it a good thing well i think like. anything else. if it's balanced correctly it's great.

and if it goes. to some extreme level then it becomes a. negative and i think it. i think it's probably sourced in some. sort of. animalistic tribalism that we all have. to be part of a tribe. and this is a real big tribe that you. get to be a part of. and all you have to do is kind of show. up and so when someone says hey. we're going to play hockey against the. russians. well we're gonna cheer for the american.

boys. so my my area of work is artificial. intelligence. it'd be interesting to ask your thoughts. about something which is. um autonomous weapon systems us. has now officially. released the report saying that they're. open to. uh not open they're engaging in in um. adding more and more autonomy in. artificial intelligence into its weapon. systems because china is doing it. so there's these are the first steps and.

then something that. ai folks worry about which is uh. a race an ai race. in the space of autonomous weapons that. can run away. uh too quickly is that something um. i don't know if in general if you have. thoughts about. weapon systems that make autonomous. decisions. at the small scale of just targeting. where to shoot. and the largest scale of military. strategy.

of just get being given a mission of. destroy this particular target this. particular. say terrorist human being. and then figure out what is the right. bombing campaign on your own. to accomplish this task that minimizes. civilian death. and and then just loading that in and. letting the ai system automatically. decide. that what are your general thoughts. about it. do you do you worry about it because as. the positive effects.

that in the best version of that world. you kill fewer civilians. you kill hurt fewer of your own. human beings but at the negative side of. that. you might lose the the thing we kind of. talked about which is the basic humanity. even. in the individual soldier of what is. right and what is wrong. and not making huge mistakes that hurt.

thousands or millions of people. i guess what you're asking me is if they. could make a machine that could. do more surgical attacks on. enemy individuals would i be for it. yes i would be for it the problem is. if you've ever used machines of any kind. their initial design may not be there. there's unintended consequences there's. uh.

there's ways in the the machine actually. behaves. that you realize there's bugs in this. thing. so do we not put protocols in place to. prevent. something from going too far outside the. boundaries of what we wanted to execute. you do but the question is uh. this is the first time in human history. you can create things. machines toaster microwave oven. that's smarter than you in this. particular task.

i mean it's not yet there what you're. learning a lot with military strategies. humans are actually really damn smart. it's very hard to do to improve on a. human. and so most actual drones that are. unmanned are still piloted by humans. it's very difficult to do every aspect. of war. but it's not out of the realm of. possibility that. machines will start doing those things. better in certain certain. things a certain more precise.

targeting of the enemy. the question is so what happens. when you start to rely on the machine to. do some of the task. is you get lazy. you forget what it is like to do that. task. or more importantly you lose the. knowledge of the intricacies of that. task. and you forget the ways you can go wrong. so the protocols. may not be sufficient to constrain the.

power. of the ways that things go wrong. especially when things are moving really. quickly. especially when the ethics of the two. sides aren't perfectly aligned. when people are some certain sides like. on the chinese side may be more willing. to take risks. for dangerous consequences than others. so what. happened on the bioweapon side is. internationally. maybe you can speak to this more but my.

sense what i was told. there's a sense globally that buy. weapons are not going to be used. they're unethical there's a sense like. we're not going to engage in this. and with ai currently china. and u.s said green light. i'll go ahead it's it's totally ethical. if if it can decrease the. loss of human life um. why not my worry is.

that it's much more it's. it's much easier to design weapons. that are effective. than design weapons who have the the. depth of ethics. and morals that humans do which i think. we don't as human beings don't. acknowledge enough. that even like the cold calculated. killing of others. like precise effective execution of a.

mission. still has ethics in it at every level. you know what's right and what's wrong. and i don't know if that. i don't know if you take that away. you're not going to make huge mistakes. that you regret. is that something you don't. i don't really worry about it um but. as you design something like i said you. you put protocols in place and. and from what i am hearing you say or. trying to hear you say.

there's be a point where our protocols. wouldn't be. wouldn't be sufficient to stop the. machine. from doing something that was unethical. i'm kind of worried that this is. something you don't worry about. because a lot of people i respect don't. worry about it and i don't know what to. do about that. a lot of generals don't worry about it a. lot of people who know. much more about war like you than me.

don't worry about it and that worries me. well that's because you have a vision. into. the shortfalls of a.i and i don't. i don't have a vision of the shortfalls. of ai i don't know enough about it. as far as i'm concerned you put a on off. switch somewhere you put a. a kill switch on a system. and if it starts going awry you hit the. kill switch and that's it. so if you know when you look at me and. say well there's.

no possible way to put a kill switch. that would be 100 effective and here's. you draw those concerns to me and we. could talk through it and say okay. well here's where we should draw the. line yeah. i mean it's like again for the soviet. union chernobyl meltdown. there's always the ability i believe to. have a kill switch. the problem is uh the more power you. give to the machine. the more opportunity you give to the.

to the human supervising that machine to. make a mistake and not. shut off the switch at the right time so. yes the solution i mean you're putting. the responsibility still in the human. hands and i think that's the correct. place to put it. there should be good protocols good. leadership good execution competency all. around. your protocol should consider the basic. failures of human nature the human. factor. of how things go wrong so there should. be multiple people supervising the. system all those things. but i am just very skeptical.

of greater and greater power in the. machine that can create war. that can not lead to death yeah and. that's why like i said and like you just. said you have protocols in place that. that are a kill switch and if if you. think about the amount of. nuclear weapons that we've had on planet. earth for the past however many years. and there's been you know no. rogue element that said you know what. i'm gonna shoot this thing there's been.

no. protocol that took place where all of a. sudden we said. oh no i mean there's been there's been. escalations. but the protocols worked have worked so. far. now that's a scary thing to think about. that we rely on these protocols to stop. some rogue element out there from. launching a. missile that could kill millions of. people and trigger. a global war so yeah the protocol should. be strict.

okay ask uh jacqueline a ridiculous. question. if human civilization goes extinct what. would be the reason. you mention nuclear war do you worry. about this. the reason i bring that up a lot of. people in the ai community. worry about artificial general. intelligence so super intelligent. ai systems creating a lot of damage. autonomous weapon systems is one. possibility. a lot of folks recently especially with. this pandemic.

if you want to be terrified listen uh. somebody i talked to recently sam harris. did a four-hour. podcast on how bioengineering of viruses. is likely to destroy human civilization. i recommend. that highly if you if you were too. optimistic about the future of the human. species. so apparently the in the space of. bioengineering becomes is becoming. easier and easier and easier to. engineer viruses engineer pathogens.

[Applause]. [Laughter]. this is the world's most depressing. question what uh is. do you is there something in particular. you worry about. like that we should be thinking as a. human species about. uh yeah i'm sorry to disappoint you. again with my lack of worry for. all these problems but i don't worry too. much about it um. you know what we we've made it through a.

bunch of wickets so far as a species and. we'll make it through some more or we. won't and if we don't make it through. some of these wickets and. someone decides that what they're gonna. do over the weekend is create some crazy. virus that spreads and. kills everybody yeah. you know what uh i'm usually extremely. optimistic about the stuff i. am now i'm with you except. we won't well there's always a chance we. won't. but i have a sense that human first of.

all. i believe that most people have much. more capacity for good than evil all of. us are capable of evil i believe but. most people are much more capable of. doing good and want to do good. and uh i also believe in the resiliency. of the human species. that we're an innovative bunch and we. can respond to tragedy. especially we respond more to tragedy as. the scale of tragedy grows. and our response is much better so.

that's why i'm not worried about it. bro. uh what makes a great man. let's start at the individual what makes. a great man what makes a great woman. what makes a great human being. somebody that puts others above. themselves. what makes a great leader of humans. same thing but that sentence does a lot. of work. there's uh when you're a leader there's. a lot of egos.

there's a lot of tension there's the. humans the human factor. there's people who are timid there's. people who are. assholes there's people who are. incredibly competent but. uh self-obsessed i don't know there's. complexities of human nature how do you. get all those people. to do uh to be the best version of. themselves and to lift. up everyone else around them okay so now. that. that question is a little bit different. now so now it's getting into a.

more specific question but at the same. time a more broad question of. what elements does it take to make a. good leader yes. so you're right that different people. have different personalities. different tendencies different levels of. ego. and the the way that i try and explain. this is. um like a video game and i'm not even a. video game player but i've seen this. before where video game. characters have various skills.

various strengths and weaknesses so. maybe they're strong but they're dumb or. maybe they're strong. and smart but they're slow they just. give them these these ratings. and so that's what human beings are and. that's the way leaders are. and you can have different leaders with. different characteristics. and depending on how all those. characteristics. match up you can have somebody that. is very introverted but they're but but. they're. still a very good leader because when. they do communicate.

they do it in a clear simple manner that. everyone understands so even though. they're a little bit introverted people. still. respect them and listen to them because. they communicate in a clear way. you could have somebody that's extremely. charismatic. extremely charismatic and everyone looks. to them but. they're slow in making decisions and so. now we've got someone that. can't really make decisions when. decisions need to get made so. even though they're charismatic they're. still not a good leader.

so depending on the human being that. we're talking about and you just. mentioned earlier that human beings are. you know more complex than anything and. do a better job at. just about everything than a robot so. that's the same thing with leadership. you've got all these different. characteristics and you. you match them or mix them together and. depending on. where the ratings come out depending on. how that thing. does in the end can we almost like as a. case study look at a few people in the. tech area that i'm familiar with that i. know well.

we can the only caveat being that i may. have no familiarization with them. whatsoever you may have to brief me on. them yeah. so i'll do my best to brief i'll do my. best to reduce. human beings into simple descriptions. and then you can give me insights of why. the hell they're such effective leaders. uh based on my description not based on. your actual deep knowledge of the. human beings uh so uh that caveat of my. inability to speak both the english. language and describe humans. well let's talk about first elon musk.

so he's known as being quite. harsh in the sense of first of all. a very high bar of excellence. and also willing to what he calls kind. of first principles thinking. of asking the the questions that hurt. which is why the hell are we doing it. this way. why can't it be done a lot but not just. better but a lot better.

so so let's i don't want to hear his. whole character i'll go want it. one section at a time so we got a guy. that's harsh yeah. and and asking the really hard questions. how can that be. good or why is that good well first of. all it can be horrible. and there's leaders out there that are. harsh and they're hated and no one likes. them and no one wants to work for them. and they never do anything. so what is it that elon musk does that. makes gives him the ability to be harsh. so i was.

i was hearing a description of. me yeah when i would give feedback. to young seals that had made mistakes. during training operations and. the description was that same thing like. this. harsh blunt force trauma. and just totally direct. sledgehammer of truth that i would hit. guys with. but it's interesting because i always.

talk about you know building. relationships and making sure. you're not offending someone yeah so how. do these things. match up well i can tell you how they. match up when i was. being harsh the guys that i was being. harsh with. knew without one shred of doubt. that i cared about them more than. anything else and that the reason i was. giving them this feedback is because i. wanted them to be able to lead their. troops i wanted them to be able to go. accomplish their mission. and i wanted them to be able to bring. their guys home from war.

so i wasn't being harsh because it. elevated my ego i wasn't being harsh. because i wanted to. denigrate them i was being actually. being harsh because i wanted them to. accomplish the mission. so if that's where elon comes from. hey listen we got to make this happen. this is for this is for the good of the. world to do this. and people know that then it works. i'll bring this point back up with. another guy steve jobs but let me stay. on elon for a second.

the uh the other thing he does. which is interesting i'm i see the value. of this. it'd be great to hear you uh speak about. it it's unlike many of the other ceos. very rich billionaires uh. you know involved in leading a lot of. people he. puts a lot of time into making sure he's. on the factory floor. he famously sleeps on the sort of like. in the middle of things. and he puts a lot of effort he's also.

very good at it. is being a low-level engineer so like. whatever the task is. he wants to understand the details and. he'll talk to. the lowest level person in terms of like. you know somebody who's. like uh working literally on putting. parts together. he wants to understand what the problem. is what the challenge is if there's an. emergency. he wants to understand the actual. details of the problem not like. delegating you to a manager but like. because a lot of ceos a lot of managers.

will will talk about sort of the the. power and the importance of delegation. here he wants to know if there's a big. problem he wants to know the exact. detail. he wants to know the exact problem he. wants to. at the fundamental level understand how. to solve that problem. whether it has to do with materials. whether it has to do with the actual. manufacturing the uh. mechanical engineering aspect like we're. talking about like engineering. this is a guy who wears a suit there's a. ceo. tweets about deutsche coin but like an.

actual job. he's low level engineering and that to. me. was always inspiring to see somebody who. knows. what the fuck they're doing that's what. it like he gains the respect. of engineers at the lowest level. i don't know if that's scalable but. that's always been inspiring to me and i. wonder. how many people it's inspiring to maybe. you can speak to the value of doing that. of. of no matter how high your level of.

leader is to be able to do the low level. shit. yeah and that's that's a common trait. that good leaders have. and maybe he doesn't necessarily know. how to do everything a good leader. but they go down there and talk to the. front line troops and say. hey what is the issue that you're. dealing with or. you know how can i support you how can i. give you help and what one key point. that you said is he said when there's a. problem. he gets in there so there's things. happening at his companies that.

they're working and so he doesn't have. to die i'm not saying he never does but. he doesn't have to spend as much time. working on. or or looking at some sub-system that's. functioning well. he's got a good leader in there that's. handling it and he checks in with that. leader and the leader says yeah it's. working perfectly he says great. that when there's a problem that's when. he might have to get down there and dig. into some details so that he fully. understands it so that. he when he digs down in the details and. this is important. he's coming from an altitude where he.

has a. better bigger perspective not. necessarily better but a bigger. perspective. so if you sit there and work on a. problem whatever. for eight hours and you're staring at. you know if you were planning a mission. and you were. you were planning it for eight hours. you're staring at the. the maps and the charts and you're. figuring out where all the troops are. going to be located. and i come in after eight hours and i. look at your plan. from a from a distant perspective. there's a good chance i'll be able to. see. holes in your plan that you couldn't see.

because your perspective was too close. so so that's good for me to be able to. come in from a higher perspective and. have a look at it. but also there's times where. i need to get down there and actually. look you know if you're looking at a. problem you say look i can't figure out. boss i can't figure out how to get to. this target. and i'm looking at it from a distance. and i don't see i might need to start. digging in. and looking and saying oh here's a route. that we can take that actually makes. sense. let's try that so i think it's a good.

example of someone. going up and down in altitude to look at. problems understanding what's happening. with the front-line troops and at the. same time being able to go. back to the strategic level and i can. it's probably this way the reason that. he's successful is because he doesn't. get stuck. down there yeah because if he felt the. need to micromanage each and every part. on a tesla. it wouldn't be it would be very unlikely. that he would have the capacity to do. all that.

now he can hand over some broad. chip design and say hey this is what the. function needs to be and he gives it to. lex and lex goes there with your team. and you figured out and you make it. happen. if he had to actually do that all. himself most likely not possible. so that's what leaders should be doing. they should go elevate and. and and then get down in the weeds when. they have to and then go back up. the sad thing this is the part that. makes me not want to do a startup. is basically his whole life is dealing.

with emergencies. just like you said he's not dealing. this is not shooting the shit about. details of engineering. it's dealing with like in this in the. case of the company. life and death like something that can. just. completely damage the production line. right so he's constantly dealing with. emergencies putting out fires. and um i don't know if there's something. to be said about the psychology of that. of how uh like he he's spoken himself.

that he's worried. whether his mind can hold up much longer. so hopefully in the near future he will. start to. form more decentralized command where he. has some subordinate leadership. that he fully trusts and most important. that he has properly trained. so that they can handle these day-to-day. fires at least. 80 percent of them so only 20 of the. time. does he actually need to go and solve a. problem. if he's not doing that right now then. that's going to end up being a problem.

anytime so i work with companies all the. time and that's what's interesting about. this is. i go and work with a ceo or with a with. the c-suite of a company. it takes a little while to figure out. what's going on i'm kind of going off of. the things that you're telling me. yeah almost anecdotally right yes but. let's say that what you get. and also i don't know how familiar you. actually are with the. inner workings of his companies but. if we were to assume that what you're. saying is accurate then my advice would. be hey listen.

you need to start putting a little bit. more time and effort into training up. some subordinate leadership that has the. trust knowledge and expertise that you. will be able to turn over. some of these some of these details too. for two reasons number one so you can. let your brain um you know you can you. can survive a little longer as he put it. but also. all the time that you spend as a leader. looking down and into your organization. is time that you're not looking up and. out. so when you're not looking up and out. you're not seeing what the competitor's.

doing you're not seeing where the. market's going there's problems that. that that can come from that so if right. now he's spending too much time looking. down and in. and you mentioned you know you said i. don't know if i want to do a startup. when you do a startup you're going to be. looking down and in for a while. yeah it's going to take a while you're. going to have to do all this work. yourself you're not going to have the. finances to put. people manpower behind these things so. that's probably he maybe he's in that. mindset a little bit because he's done. so many startups over the years and so. he's in the. he's habitually in the weeds.

so my advice would be all right let's. start looking at formulating some. subordinate leadership that has the like. i said the expertise the trust that you. can. you can start to turn over some of these. more. minute details to them so you can start. looking up and out. yeah i think he's done that more. successfully in some places than others. the spacex a lot of people give. the credit to gwen shawwal for the ceo. um the ceo of spacex as.

as a very successful person that runs. shit but. in tesla not as much so i wonder if you. can comment on. something a lot of people worry about. and this applies to a lot of tech. companies. which is a lot of people worry about. that if elon disappears. the the innovative spirit the company as. as we know them today will collapse. will stagnate and will basically fail to. do what they've been doing for so many.

years successfully. is there some aspect to uh what makes a. good leader that. if you disappear it's still. the thing still lives on and not just. lives on but thrives. yeah so what we have to do in those. situations is we have to establish. a strong culture inside that. organization and. if you're there there's there's reasons. why this happens right. if i have a big ego and i form a company. and. i love the fact that everyone looks at.

me and says oh jocko made this company. and he's the creative force behind this. company and that fuels my ego and it. makes me feel good. and you know i'm working with you lex. and every time you come up with an idea. i say lexi you need to stay in your box. yeah. right so i'm not creating a culture that. rewards. that sort of creativity and eventually. when i die. i won't have educated my team. on how to maintain that creative aspect. so.

again hopefully inside that organization. he's he's encouraging and growing that. culture. where creativity is rewarded where where. it flourishes. even when he's gone that's what we have. to hope for. he is but i also seem to notice that. there's not many people like him people. become complacent. too easily that disappoint i've been. disappointed by people a little bit.

it's like success makes people soft. now with elon it seems like success. doesn't have any effect that's like the. reverse effect. it doesn't it's like what's the it's. always like what's the next biggest. thing. right he's living that exponential. growth. which i think that's the problem that. you have to have somebody who's. constantly trying to find the 10x. solution like. trying to constantly improve things and.

uh restlessly that. i mean that probably has to do with. finding the right people not just. creating the culture. but creating the culture with the rights. of. speaking people which steve jobs. there's uh two things i want to mention. there. one once again the harshness but a very. different kind. and the second is team building so on. the harshness. he is much harsher than elon.

in a way in the following way i'm. having a sense that you will not like. this but i'd like to defend it. is he loses his shit quite a bit. he was famously at least especially. early on being very emotional. he's letting passion dominate the. discussion there'd be a lot of firings. there would be a lot of mean things said. to people. i don't know what you make of that how. much is a leader are you allowed to just.

lose your shit. in your love for the thing you're doing. and how effective is that as a leader. you shouldn't be doing that very often. so you can look back at me and say well. jocko here's the most profitable company. that's ever existed. and so you're wrong well. going back to that multitude of. characteristics that human beings can. have. well it's the same thing with businesses. it's the same thing with companies.

steve jobs was off the charts in. some of his traits his ability to. understand. design yeah his ability to understand. human interface with computer systems. so so far off the charts. that despite his bad temper. emotional behavior. the company still thrived that's.

that can happen you can have people that. you there's you can have people. that are horrible leaders that develop. something. that's so universally. outstanding that you end up with a. a company that's successful i the reason. i mean i get asked that. a bunch you know people always ask me. because i say look you you shouldn't be. you shouldn't be losing your temple as. temper as a leader. well what about steve jobs he used to. yell and scream all the time great. i might when people say that to me i say.

oh okay are you as good as at design. as steve jobs was are you as good are. you as good at marketing. yeah as steve jobs was there's he had. a certain amount of skills that were off. the charts. and so he was able to be successful. despite the fact. that he would lose his temper treat. people horribly that's not that's not. good. it's not good and it would have been. even more successful. if you if you wouldn't had those. characteristics now you might say well.

he his anger is what pushed things. well let me ask you this. what leader wins the leader. whose team is afraid who the. the team who execute executes the. mission because they're afraid of their. leader. or executes the task because they're. afraid of their leader or the team. that loves their leader so much that. they don't want to let them down. which team wins you're implying a. confidence.

that love is more powerful than fear but. i'm not so sure. this is the machiavelli question you're. saying ultimately it's always better to. lead. by uh inspiration and love. putting the fear into the team. what i'm what i'm saying is that i've. seen countless times. is me leading through my authority. leading through my rank leading through. punitive measures is infinitely worse. than me and you working together as a.

team to win. on the second point of steve jobs. uh he has this idea a philosophy of a. players. where you have a group. like the power and the productivity. of a group of what he called a players. is invaluable so you want to get a team. of. people who are the best at what they do.

but the most important aspect to him. was that a single quote-unquote b player. on the team destroys the entire. productivity of the team. is there something that brings true to. that so he was. this could be a temper thing but vicious. about. firing and removing the. what he's felt was a toxic b. player in a team so a players feed off. of each other. unless there's one b player present.

depends on the nature of the b. player is the player is the player a b. player because he's a little bit lazy. is he a b player because. he doesn't have good vision is he a b. player because he's got a big ego. and always thinks he's right and now. creates conflict in the team so there's. a bunch of different b. players look if you're working for me. and you're kind of a b player but guess. what you're a grinder and you get stuff. done.

i want you on the team you might not be. the smartest person i have. but i know that you're committed to the. team. yeah and i want you on the team so. you're a b player. but that's okay now if you if you're. lex with a giant ego i'd rather have i'd. rather have lex that's. not quite as smart because i got other. people that are smart i got other people. that are smart on the team look you're. going to need some smart people on the. team. but a team is made up it's a team. and so you take these different.

components of a team and if you have. complementary components. you'll end up with a superior team. than just basing it on the level of and. what's an a player. sometimes in the seal teams. they would get something called the. stacked platoon. and what that would be is someone you. know some senior person in that platoon. would manipulate and and and maneuver. to get the quote best guys that he could.

in that platoon so you know the most. experienced guys. the person that had great great. reputations and sometimes those platoons. would be great. sometimes they would implode because. what you end up with is a bunch of. a players and now no one wants to. follow anyone else no one wants to agree. with someone else everyone wants to do. it my way not it's my way not lex's way. lex is stupid no you're stupid. we end up with problems so can. one person derail a team absolutely. under good leadership one person should.

not derail a team. this could be a tech thing too there's. some. multiplying effect of just pure. excellence no matter the personalities. i think for steve jobs he doesn't. the ego doesn't matter none of that. matters what matters is the quality of. the output. the the genius of the result and that. somehow multiplies itself and the egos.

actually. like one of the problems with egos. is uh like what does ego usually say it. says i'm much better than you. when you have people that are really. good together it's very hard for the ego. to flourish because you're like. constantly being shown that you're not. as good. and there's a competition so like i. think to his. his idea was that like if you get people. that are really good at what they do. it turns as opposed to you being. complacent and not doing much. and thinking you're better than everyone.

else and your opinion is better is you. almost getting in that competitive race. you know that magic that happens when. you're. at the end of a marathon and you're just. like head to head like. you're just going full steam with a. person that is. as good as you there's no place for ego. there which is great. which is great let's use that example. you and i are racing. we're at the end of the marathon we're. both highly competitive. highly competitive we have massive egos. and we both want to win. we both want to win so bad.

that we we give everything we've got. that's totally positive right yeah isn't. that totally positive. now imagine this same thing. we're in a race we're in a marathon. we're in the last hundred meters. it's you against me and and our egos are. huge and we're pushing to win. and you start to pull ahead of me and my. ego is so big. and i hate losing so much.

that i somehow accidentally push my knee. up against your foot on a backstride and. throw you onto your face yeah so. that's what ego is an awesome driver. unless you let your ego control you yeah. and you let ego. drive your decision-making process in. which case it turns into. an incredible problem so you might have. someone that is. excellent you might have someone that's. outstanding. you might have some someone that's tens. across the board. but their ego is so big that big that.

they can't work with other people. they can't accept anyone else's ideas. they can't compromise on something. because they think their idea is better. all the time. and that is going to be problematic. and i don't want them on the team now as. a good leader guess what i'll do. i'll put them into a situation where i. can utilize their best aspects. but not have their ego destroy the team. so i might say hey lex you know what i. actually want you to take lead on this. part of the project over here and since.

you're so. smart and you you work so hard i know. you're going to pull ahead of everyone. else so. you grind on that once you get that. result. give it to me and i'm going to. disseminate it to the team basically i i. isolate you from wrecking yourself and. the rest of the team. with your giant ego. so then uh looking at a completely. opposite person was this a fascinating. person to me sandra pachai who's the ceo. of alphabet ceo of google.

i admire the in a romantic. sense the madness that is. steve jobs and elon musk so. to me the opposite of that is who's uh. like everybody loves him. and uh he's also a great listener so he. always brings people together and so. when the the energy of that person in a. room is like.

the basic energy if i were to summarize. it is like i want to hear all the voices. in the room. that's the energy he brings and. it's almost like he doesn't want to. impose a final decision. he wants to hear all the voices and. somehow always. the decision just falls out i don't know. what to say about that style of. leadership but it's always. surprising to me how.

that love brought a lot of people. together and still. i mean some of the greatest things. google has done over the past. several years could be attributed to. that. continued innovation bringing out the. best out of people there's of course. bureaucracy which i could criticize. the end of the day which always happens. with big companies i would argue. actually. the dictatorial style of steve jobs and. elon musk helped fight the bureaucracy. which is one criticism i would give. of being a listener and being kind it's.

sometimes you can't cut through the. bullshit as effectively. but he he's one of the only people i've. ever heard of who everybody loves. he's an inspirational figure to millions. especially. like in india he's a celebrity in the. best kind of way. is there something you could say about. that kind of leadership where. you're never the asshole you're never. the dictator. you're always the listener and the. the compassionate empathetic glue that.

brings the team together. basically with love yeah that's that's. great leadership if you have to choose. for google uh. for large companies is there something. to be said about what is more effective. the dictator. the uh ruling by love or ruling by fear. first of all everything's a dichotomy. right and so. to think that all the time you're always.

going to be able to. just bark orders at people and they're. always going to listen to you and you're. always going to get the best result. that would not be smart to think that. every single time. you're going to come to a 100 consensus. amongst the troops. and that decision is going to reveal. itself without you nudging it along. that would also be short-sighted and. naive so what you what a good leader. does is they. they they stay balanced and as much as. they can they listen to what the troops. have to say.

they take that feedback maybe they. quietly nudge things and. and i'm sure he does that i'm sure he. does some nudging that. maybe no one even picks up on you know i. like to say the the best forms of. leadership. is leadership with minimum force. required so. if i can go into a room as a leader and. not say one single thing and the team. can come to the right consensus and move. in that direction that's my preferred. method. maybe i have to give them a little bit. of a nudge a 10 nudge in one direction. okay that's better than me walking in.

there and giving them 100. dictatorial direction of exactly what i. want to have happen. now occasionally if we have an emergency. situation. people are starting to be frazzled and. they're not sure which direction to go. then sometimes as a leader you have to. walk in and say all right everyone. here's where we're going. and people get on board why because for. many years or. months or however long you've trusted. them. to come up with a plan and when you try.

when you as a leader trust your team to. come up with a plan. the team starts to trust you and you get. leadership capital and as you build. leadership capital. occasionally you need to cash in some of. that leadership capital you need to. spend some of it. and maybe it is hey listen here's the. direction we're going right now. we'll debrief it later but we got to. make a move and the team. who trusts you says roger that boss we. got it. and all of them actually do this. interesting thing i'd love to hear your. opinion on it.

asander certainly does it to a large. degree which is. it's in the process of delegation. trusting a person to do a really. difficult thing. like tossing it up. uh saying like i trust. you can get this job done. for some even if your resume does not. support that. i'm actually kind of uh amazed the human.

beings when they're given the trust. to get the job done they step up very. often that's kind of an amazing property. of human nature. people often ask me issues about. leadership and i always say that one of. the best. tools for teaching leadership and for. teaching a bunch of other lessons. is leadership itself yeah so when it. happens all the time. when you elevate someone into a. leadership position they do step up. and they do make things happen so that's. not surprising to me.

you do have to mitigate risk so. saying hey you know lex i know you're. haven't been in the military before i. know you have. very limited weapons experience but i. want you to run. a target assault on a real mission in. whatever country. that would not be good that would not be. a good move on on my part. now if i said all right lex you know. what i want you to get some leadership. experience. i've got a training mission and it's. going to be using paintball. and i'm going to put you in charge of it. i got no problem doing that.

some of that is judging human character. it's like there's potential there's. something in this person. that they are they have enough demons or. whatever the hell it requires to have. that fuel they'll. figure it out they'll hate themselves if. they don't. and they'll find the right they'll find. the tools they'll find the path they'll. to to achieve the whatever the level of. perfection they can it's been really. surprising to me it's been. making me rethink of the whole hiring.

process. because i often now i'm thinking looking. so i'm looking for people both for the. startup but just for my own life. for help and i almost want to see. evidence of excellence. but maybe you want to just based on. just judgment of human character without. evidence of excellence. have people step up like. joe rogan with jamie it's a funny side i. didn't understand how little joe knew.

about jamie. when he hired him and jamie stepped up. and now runs one of the most successful. podcasts ever and that's an incredible. kind of. and he's one of the best producers in. the world now. not to let it get to his head and by the. way the funny thing about him and one of. the best googlers in the world about the. best googlers. the the funny thing about jamie this is. okay. you might not like this but what i what. i like. i'm constantly exceptionally. self-critical to a point of like.

self-hating sometimes i deeply. appreciate every single moment i'm alive. but everything i've ever done i feel. like is shit. and when i talk to jamie about. everything he's done. he's so just in every way he carries. himself he's so self-critical. he's so like worried that it's wrong. it's bad. that anxious energy i love it. because that's how you lead growth and. progress like you might. like a therapist might say that's. probably not good for your like.

well-being. fuck it it's good for the. what's good for your well-being is to. create awesome things that's ultimately. what. leads to happiness is to to create the. best thing you can in your life. and uh so when i see that in in somebody. like jamie or. anybody i talk to when you're really. self-critical that's a good sign to me. is that ridiculous that's not ridiculous. at all and it goes back you know you. were. you were the way you were phrasing these. questions about what makes a good person. and what makes a good leader.

the way you phrase them kind of. eliminated. the normal answer that i give the normal. answer that i give you ask me what makes. a good leader what makes a good person. is is being humble. so when you're going to hire someone for. your. for your startup or whatever company. you're creating that is. a key characteristic to look for is. someone that has the humility. like like young jamie to say yeah you. know i. i could have done this better and here's.

what i can improve and here's what i. need to work on when you have somebody. that thinks they know everything. um out of the gate you're you're already. got someone that's gonna be hard to deal. with they're gonna be hard to coach. they're gonna be hard to mentor. when you have somebody that's truly. humble you barely again it's minimum. force required. because when you say to jamie after a. show how do you think that went he says. well you know i did this wrong and i. didn't have this set up in time and. you don't you don't barely have to do. anything because he's got the humility. if you've got someone that's a big ego.

and you say hey how did that show go. he goes i went awesome on my end now. guess what you have to do now you have. to start. applying force as a leader which is. expending leadership capital which we. don't want to do because we always try. and. conserve our leadership capital as much. as we possibly can and when we have to. expend it just to get. jamie to make some improvements that's. bad. so when you go looking for people look. for people that are humble now does this. mean you look for people that don't have. any confidence no that's not what i'm. saying there's a balance to all these. things it's the dichotomy of leadership.

you but people tend towards. and look i work with a lot of military. troops in the past. now i work with companies the reason i. talk about humility all the time is. because. for someone to be get into a leadership. position. in the military they have to have. confidence so the tendency is. that their confidence is going to. outweigh their humility at some point. same thing with with civilian companies. if you get to a point of leadership.

inside of a company you have to have. confidence to get there you don't. get to a position of leadership inside. of company lacking confidence. so the tendency is for confidence to. to grow a little bit too much and we. have to put that. put that confidence into check we have. to put that ego in a check. really good leaders they're confident. but they're humble that's the balance of. the dichotomy. hear that jamie don't get cocky. on occasion rarely you talk about uh.

discipline. what does a disciplined life look like. doing what you're supposed to do. what if i want to lay on the couch and. eat cheetos. and watch soap operas that's. that's not that doesn't feel like. discipline do you think you're supposed. to do that. well you know you could argue from a a. sort of uh. meaning of life perspective that perhaps.

happiness is the most important and if. it makes me happy. uh perhaps that's um if it's fulfilling. of course eating cheetos and watching. snow propers is fulfilling for nobody. whatsoever. next question but there's something. about discipline that's more than that. which is um. like the rigor of habit right you. you wake up early in the morning all the. time. uh what is it jordan peterson talks.

about make your bed. it's one place we probably agree with. jordan. people ask me if i make my bed i don't. and i never know there's a disagreement. with jordan there we go. you know when i was uh younger before i. was married i didn't make my bed because. i had one sleeping bag on it. and i would get out a sleeping bag there. was nothing to make yeah. now i'm married and i can't make my bed. because my wife's in my bed so i don't. make my bed.

okay so what in your life. maybe we can talk about the one that's. most publicly facing. which is uh you wake up at four o'clock. or around four o'clock in the morning. you post uh on social media. a a picture of your watch it being early. just to remind people that. uh you're you uh are man of your word. what's that about what's the philosophy.

of the four o'clock. what role does that play in a. disciplined life for you. okay from that perspective what role it. plays is getting a jump on the day. and i when you wake up early and you get. a jump on the day and you've got your. workout done and you've got a little bit. of. a little bit of work done yeah by the. time. normal people are getting up that's a. win. that's a psychological win and it's not. just a psychological win it's an. actual win it's an actual win so.

that feels great it doesn't feel great. maybe when your alarm clock goes off. but by eight o'clock in the morning and. you've already accomplished. some of the major tasks that you have. some of the most painful tasks that you. have for the day. you're off to a great start and it's. going to feel great. let's break this down then what does. than the rest of the day look like. what is the perfect productive. disciplined day in the life of jocko.

willing look like. wake up work out wake up when. four four thirty work out when. five five to six or seven. no eating no and then what does the. workout look like. depends on the day what's what's the. perfect we're talking about. body weight lifting cardio. uh heavy bag jiu jitsu.

okay yeah when i say workout i mean no. jiu-jitsu. so jiu-jitsu doesn't jiu-jitsu comes. later in the day. this is just you alone this is me alone. working out yep. and i'm going to be doing of a wide. variety of things. this is the thing that has the pictures. of the aftermath with some. this is some sweat at the end so the. goal is to do whatever the hell. results in some sweat and that takes an. hour. sometimes it takes 12 minutes sometimes. it takes three hours.

depending on what kind of. mood i'm in you got some demons to work. through. or is this just is this just work like. uh. are we uh so you got the david goggins. who's like. who clearly has demons screaming inside. of his head that he's trying to work. through. are you just getting the work done out. of the discipline or. is this uh i think joe is a little bit. with david goggins is like. there's some ego there's some bullshit. that you're trying to get out through.

some of the exercise. that's a good way to kind of humble you. is just doing that exercise. well exercise is certainly humbling. i mean it's but it's physical. conditioning right it's. preparing your your body so that you can. handle whatever it is you're going to do. perfect what does uh what what do you do. after. let's talk about food hopefully surf if. the waves are good. surf for how good are the waves.

let's say they're good this is a perfect. day it's a perfect perfect waves. why do you surf it's fun. okay this is fun okay man. man and nature which is like what. surfing is the ultimate is the power of. the. the infinite power of the ocean versus a. little. silly looking man on a board. you could say it's the infinite power of. the ocean versus a silly looking man on. a board or you could say it's fun.

because it's russian and roman says okay. this is for fun in the morning beautiful. and this is you're still haven't eaten. no okay so when do you eat. uh i'll usually start grazing around 11. o'clock. and grazing what's the what's the diet. that's the is there a perfect diet or do. you graze. i'll eat some nuts you know something. like that. i usually start grazing maybe i'll have. a little piece of meat or something like. that. does work enter any of this i'm sure you. have a lot of people that want your.

attention. yeah yeah no work is work is about to. happen. because you know even if i if i woke up. at four. worked out from five to six surf from. six to eight. now i'm starting to work writing. recording. reading talking to clients. is there parts of the day where you try. to. find moments to think deeply to read. deeply to sort of really focus because.

this world wants. is full of distractions right even. talking to. uh like even work stuff this emails and. all those kinds of things they can. they can scatter your mind is there. times you. seek to have that focus well i read a. lot of books. and so usually when i read i'll be. reading for a chunk of time. maybe an hour at a time maybe a little. bit longer. and i might do that twice a day so. i don't know if that counts as what. you're describing but yeah then same.

thing with writing. when i when i'm writing something i mean. i just. that's what i do i write usually usually. right for about an hour. i can get about a thousand words an hour. out of me so. that's that's sort of what i do. what does the rest of the day look like. just a lot of work but one is the jiu. jitsu i want to find out about the jiu. jitsu. so around around 4 30 or 5 o'clock at. night. you train yep and uh.

how hard you still how are you doing. body wise are you still the old man. is the old man still got it or are you. talking to me. uh it would be it would be good for. viewership and ratings if i die. before the end of the podcast so i i i. still train with the same guys and i'll. train you know. so i've been very lucky when it comes to. getting injured and stuff like that. so haven't i've had some injuries but.

they're they're healed and so yeah i. train. and uh food wise you mentioned grazing. or some of some nuts are very light kind. of things is there a main meal here. yeah at night at night yep high. uh in protein or is it uh anything. yeah i'll have like a steak and salad. i'll usually have. for dessert i have like a protein shake. so is there a thing where at the end of. the. at the end of the day you like you have. like a samurai sword and you meditate.

on uh death and. um all those kinds of is this some weird. ritual. you partake in no i just go to bed when. i get done with the end of the day. i might read a little bit more just more. yeah because i read early on in and. really reading makes me tired. usually um so i'll read a little bit. more. is there a key to you that you can speak. to. that makes for a productive day just the. way you approach it mentally.

yeah write down what you're supposed to. do wake up early and start doing it. and then get it done yeah i know it's a. miraculous trick can i ask you about jiu. jitsu. by all means what have you learned from. being a practitioner you're a black belt. what have you learned from this journey. of uh being a martial artist. jiu jitsu for me was the connective.

tissue. that started to join my mind together. with all the different aspects of my. life. and so jiu jitsu for me was was really. important. and i don't think i would be doing. anything that i'm doing right now if it. wasn't for jiu jitsu. so there's various aspects of my life. that were in existence but i didn't. understand how they were connected until. i started training jiu jitsu. the primary things are interacting with. other human beings.

and combat tactics. and strategy and jiu jitsu and all those. things are connected. they all follow the same guiding. principles and i wouldn't have. recognized those guiding principles. if i didn't do jiu jitsu. can you elaborate because you've trained. for many many years. what um is it the hardship is it the. humbling nature of just being tapped all. over. you know non-stop i don't i actually. don't know how many times.

i've tapped more times than you okay so. good. is it just the hardship of physical. training like the honesty of the mat in. the sense that like. you know what works and what doesn't. work which which aspects were the most. uh impactful for you all aspects so yes. from a humility perspective when you. realize. you think when you think you know what. you're doing when you think you have. certain skills. and you realize that there's always. somebody better than you and you realize. that hey maybe i don't have all the. answers all the time. and you bring that to a leadership.

perspective and you walk into your. platoon and you realize that maybe you. don't have. all the answers all the time and maybe. you should listen to what other people. have to say. you bring that to a combat situation and. you realize that you think. if you sit there and think that you're. smarter than the enemy you're gonna be. complacent you're gonna make mistakes so. there's one aspect. out of the gate as far as. you know if i if i'm going to try and. get your arm. do i attack your arm.

maybe not directly unless i'm a white. belt exactly. what do i do i attack your neck and when. you reach up to defend your neck. that's when i get your arm well if i'm. out on the battlefield. and there's an enemy position should i. attack. frontal assault into that position. no no i shouldn't i should put down some. covering fire and i should maneuver. around to the flank. it's the same thing if i'm dealing with. you and you're my boss. and you've got a giant ego and you've. come up with a plan and i don't like.

your plan should i walk up to you and. say. hey lex your plan isn't good no or. should i say. hey lex can i ask you some questions. about how you want us to execute this. because. i want to make sure i understand your. vision. [Laughter]. so all these things are connected yes. and i wouldn't have realized. that we could sit here and do this. forever we could we could i could tell. you these comparisons forever. but this all this connective tissue. bringing all these things together. i wouldn't have seen it without i don't.

think i would have seen it without. jiu-jitsu. so jiu-jitsu to me had it had a. incredible life impact on me. not look the physical part yes. absolutely does it. does it keep you humble when you know. that there's a 145 pound individual. that can tap you out when you're 220. pound. 25 year old guy and there's a 135 or 140. pound.

you know 46 year old guy that can make. you tap. out that's humbling and and what do you. do with that. do you run away from it or do you. continue to pursue it. same thing with life same thing with. anything so jiu jitsu is. an incredibly powerful not just physical. aspect but it's it's a way to understand. it's a way of thinking. you've also competed is there something. you can speak to the value of. competition. obviously you've been through combat.

actual military combat is many many. many orders of magnitude more high. stakes. than in us in a silly sport like jiu. jitsu. nevertheless it still. has some of the echoes of the same. challenges. is there something you can speak to the. value of competition for you. yep competition will reveal weaknesses. in your game that you. can then go back and train to rectify.

so that that's very useful to sort of uh. yeah. as a testing ground of course training. can be that testing ground as well. or um that feedback. yeah but as you and i both know if you. and i train together all the time. you'll in my game i'll know your game. and even if we have five other people we. all kind of understand each other's. games. and you're not doing something to me. that i don't expect so when i go. and compete i'm good you're you know. this random person. has a game that i've never seen before.

i'm and i may or may not. know how to deal with that game if i. know how to deal with it great. i get the victory maybe i don't learn as. much if i don't know how to deal with. their game. i get the loss and i get the win. of learning what some weakness in my. game is. so you mentioned offline that uh your. friends and you work with. dean lister and dean lister is one of. the people that. inspired john donahue who i've very much. been.

i've gotten a chance to talk to quite a. bit recently. i don't know what you think about this. this is not a therapy session but. or maybe it is into one it's turning. into one. i've uh that he's a fascinating. uh person john donahue in terms of. creating almost the science of jiu jitsu. to a level that i haven't seen before. which is systems thinking about. like you can think about military combat.

as tactics in a particular situation. but then you zoom out and you want to. create entire systems of tactics in all. situations. right he's very kind of wants to keep. zooming out and creating giant systems. and uh which i appreciate that even. though the. the task is probably impossible uh. to do completely but there's. something that's in terms of competition. that.

he kindled the fire in me that i want to. get back out there. here's a particular thing that did it. which it was very different from my. personal journey in jiu jitsu. which was to degree that. uh people i worked with cared about. competition. it was always about winning. and uh or doing well all those kinds of. things. for john it's about winning.

like winning is not it's not even the. thing that's important. what's most important is winning by. submission. is uh or dominance right. and uh and not just the the end it's the. entire time. competing such that the only thing that. matters is that kind of victory. and that's a very different level of. competition that's actually liberating. in a certain kind of sense. i remember so much my competition.

was about kind of fear of uh not taking. risks. you know you get up on points or you. hold a strong position you kind of. advance you get more points. maybe you chase the submission but. there's always a fear of risk. and for him you embrace the risk. you're not you should not be competing. out of fear you know uh. live and die by the sword versus uh stay. in safety. i don't know if there's something to be. said here well i mean this is um.

not you said it's novel to you it's not. novel to me the entire. my entire journey on jiu jitsu in jiu. jitsu was only about. submission and you know as you as you. mentioned. dean dean lister is my coach and my main. training partner for. 20 something years and if you ever watch. dean. train or fight that's what he's trying. to do. is submit as everyone that's what he's. always done. that's what he always will do he you. know he has the highest. i think he has impact i know he has the.

highest submission. victories in adcc he that's what he does. so this is in fact as jiu-jitsu got more. popular. and we started seeing people competing. to win by points that was what was novel. to me in the beginning now it's the. standard. so it's not novel to me i i love the. fact that. john donahue and all of his troops go. out. and they try and submit people i think.

it's awesome and i think that's what jiu. jitsu is. all right let's ask for some advice for. white belts there's a lot of white belts. to listen to this. what advice would you give uh you've. been doing jiu jitsu for many years. in terms of uh a successful. journey through gjso what advice would. you give them people just starting. out just keep training keep your ego in. check don't freak out try and use the. techniques that you learn. and all this stuff so i'm like i'm. saying it you know notice how i'm saying. it yeah. hey tap out keep your ego check and.

everyone but the thing is everyone says. this all the time. and white belts still start off by going. completely nuts for at least. you know three to six months of i'm not. gonna let this guy tap me out. and they're gonna and i'm gonna tap this. guy out not by using technique but by. just using strength. and it's just a it's just inhibiting. your learning. so as much as you can i know i know you. got to get it out of your system i know. you don't want to tap and i know you. want to tap somebody. but as soon as you get get that. off your chest then try and try and.

relax and try and learn the techniques. it's perhaps counter-intuitive it never. was to me but it's counter-intuitive. that to uh. to start on the journey of really sort. of mastering jiu-jitsu whatever or. improving is you have to relax. and that seems to be a very. counterintuitive lesson i learned that. early on with uh. that was thanks to the russian system i. played piano and like music but. basically actually. this is true for basically any sport. that includes a human body.

is like relaxing is the way you you. start learning stuff you have to. learn you have to literally and most. people don't seem to understand this. it's like. you have to learn what it means for the. human body to relax. like i guess you have to have enough. knowledge of all the muscles involved. to know what it means to relax those. muscles so for piano you have to. understand. what it means to relax your wrists and. your fingers. in order to learn how to move them. like if there's tenseness in the fingers.

you're not going to. like you have to learn how to try hard. while relaxed the i guess the beginner. if you don't internalize this lesson. we'll try hard by. uh tensing up hard and like trying hard. tensing up more. as opposed to relaxing more and that. lesson. cannot be conveyed through words i guess. i've had the great fortune of having. dictatorial teachers as they do in.

russia for. uh for piano and so on we get like hit. if. if you don't learn to relax which is a. counterintuitive notion but it works. yeah this brings me to one of my. favorite pieces of coaching advice that. i will tell white belts while they're. struggling on the mat i'll tell them to. relax harder. okay uh that's. beautiful for somebody. who studied war who participated in war. what do you think is the best martial.

arts. for um let's call it self-defense. hand-to-hand combat outside the. constraints of sport. so it's not one answer the answer to me. is jiu-jitsu boxing wrestling muay thai. judo sambo and on down the list. i definitely start with jiu jitsu the. reason i start with jiu jitsu is because.

in a self-defense situation. if you are a big monster human. and you want to fight me and you square. off with me. guess what i'm going to do run away. because i don't want i don't want to get. involved even if i see. skinny little lex out on the street and. you start yelling at me and saying you. want to fight me i don't want to fight. you. i don't it doesn't matter i don't care. if i can beat you or not. what if you stab me what if you sue me. after i get done throwing you onto the.

concrete. there's a million bad things that can. happen and almost nothing good. so for self-defense my first. self-defense is my feet to get away from. you. and if you square off to punch me i can. run away from you if you. square off to kick me i can run away. from you if you push me i can run away. from you. so great i don't need to know how to box. to run away from you. where this all changes is when you grab. me.

and now i don't have the option to run. away anymore. now i actually have to know how to get. away from. your grip and that's where jiu-jitsu. comes into play. so especially if you get me on the. ground if you if you grab me. and get me on the ground now i need to. know how to get. you off of me and get up and get away. from you so i can run away. so that's why i say start with jiu jitsu. and and from there. boxing wrestling judo sambo.

muay thai yeah there's uh there's cert. in the standing position. i mean i'm a judo person as well and. the judo is very limited in their. understanding the full grappling. spectrum. even though they do all the things on. the ground as well but uh. it's so focused on the feet but. nevertheless it's important to. understand. the thing that judo has. as a sport that's good to practice that. jiu jitsu doesn't.

is uh not just the. gra the skill of grappling on the feet. but the skill of. explosive aggression that. sometimes you just is more about in. terms of tactics it's more about. patience. and it depends how you practice it but. because so much is uh about control. and uh technique that uh sometimes you. don't get to practice. like aggression explosive aggression and. judo is so much about.

uh aggression implemented in such a way. that the. demonstration of power is effortless. right that's the beauty of jiu-jitsu. yeah and same thing with wrestling. wrestling also has a high level of. intensity and aggression as well. yes yeah so that's where that's where i. agree judo. and wrestling absolutely awesome. get some and striking boxing muay thai. yeah you know like. the you should train all these things. are there books. and movies in your life long ago.

recently that had a big impact on you. yeah the main one is about face which. is sitting right here there you go. this is written by colonel david. hackworth it's the. book that really had a massive impact on. me from a leadership perspective. and i ended up i talked about it enough. that it started kind of coming back. and started selling well and they. contacted me and i wrote a forward for. it. so that book had a huge impact on me and.

i still when i read it i still get. lessons out of it. just about every time this is a vietnam. war. and korea and korea and he. got in towards the end of right at the. end of world war ii. so he was kind of raised by the the. soldiers that fought. in world war ii and then he went to. korea and then he went to vietnam. an exceptional warrior a soldier soldier. if you can give a little inkling what.

made him a soldier soldier. so i he died in 2005. so i never got to meet him and. i i had a guy on my podcast who worked. for him. in vietnam a guy named general. james mukayama and luckily his son. had reached out to me and said. i think you're talking about my dad. because i read some passage in there.

that. that jim mukayama was young cap young. captain jim mukayam a company commander. in vietnam. he said i think you're talking about my. dad. would you want to talk to him and i said. absolutely well here's the thing that i. didn't really understand and you read. one quote but there's all these quotes. in that book. that talk about how great hackworth was. and. what an incredible leader he was and how. he was the best combat leader anyone had. ever seen and. all these just really complementary. things that are said by a bunch of. different people. and when you read the book you're.

reading this guy's account of what he. went through. but i never really knew if that was all. true or did he just cherry-pick his. friends. quotes about him and cherry picked the. stories that he wanted to tell. and so it was very interesting for me. when i met mukayam. general mukayama who he became a general. eventually when i met him. and we were talking about his life and i. was very curious and i was a little bit. nervous going into this interview.

because i was thinking. maybe my hero my mentor this guy that. i've never met before. maybe he's just an arrogant jerk that. talked. talked himself up in this book so i'm. sitting down with with general mukuyama. and i finally got to the part where he's. meeting. hackworth for the first time and. i said did you know did you know who. hackworth was. when he showed up so he was mook they.

call him mook mook was the. was the like the adjutant to the. to the general that that was going to. that hackworth was gonna be working for. so when hackworth comes into the office. the first person he meets is this guy. this guy cap mokoyama and. so hackworth walks in and i said when. hackworth walked in did you know who he. was. and mukayama says everybody knew who he. was. mr infantry and so he ended up. explaining that. everything that is written in there.

about hackworth. they they just loved him they adored him. up the chain of command it turned out a. little bit different and. you know the title of the book is about. face and if you're familiar with. familiar with. military drill about faces when you turn. around 180 degrees. and at the end of the vietnam war. towards the end of the vietnam war. he was so disgusted with the way that. the war was being. fought he was so disgusted with the. decisions that were being made by the.

leadership. that he did an interview he was the. first colonel. first senior officer to do an interview. that. spoke out against the war that was. happening and this is while he's in. vietnam by the way. so he got drummed out of the army and he. was forced to retire and that was that. so. there's an element of rebelliousness to. him and. you know when you talk to me about are. are there times when. the leader is making the leadership this.

absolute senior leadership. the civilian leadership is doing the. wrong things yes. and there's times when people speak out. against it. and there's an argument for against that. too even even with hackworth. you know did he when you get when you. quit your job or you do something that. gets you fired which is what he did. you immediately give up all your. influence over what's happening. so they get another they get another. battalion commander to take his place. they get another colonel to step in and. take his place that's what they do. and now he can't help anymore he can't.

help his troops. but at that point in the war he loved. his men so much. that he was sickened with the. situation on the ground and he and he. spoke out about it. so that book had a huge impact on me and. like i said i still i still read it all. the time i reread it all the time. and i always take lessons from it let me. ask you about love. this is not usually associated with.

giaco but uh what role does love. in terms of uh friendship in terms of. family. play in a successful life in life in. general. again this is putting other people above. yourself. do you see that as love that's. ultimately the implementation of love. i would say yes jocko i've been a. huge fan of yours you're somebody who. inspires me to get up early. to get shit done to be disciplined about.

my life and to be the best leader i can. be. it's really truly an honor and uh. thank you for wasting all your too. valuable time with me i don't know what. you were thinking but thank you for. doing it. well thanks for having me on i can. guarantee you i'm not as cool as you. just made me sound. um i'm just out here like i said trying. to help people out and i think you're. helping a lot of people out with your. podcast so thanks for having me up here. to. share some of my experiences and. hopefully i'll see you on the mat one. day.

for sure looking forward to it could be. sooner than you think. that sounds like a threat i love it. thanks for listening to this. conversation with jaco willink and thank. you to. lynode indeed simplisafe and ground. news check them out in the description. to support this podcast. and now let me leave you with some words. from jacob willink. there are no bad teams only bad leaders. thank you for listening and hope to see. you next time.