Jeremi Suri: History of American Power | Lex Fridman Podcast #180

the following is a conversation with. jeremy sury a historian. at ut austin whose research interests. and writing. are on modern american history with an. eye towards presidents. and in general individuals who wielded. power. quick mention of our sponsors element. monk pack. belcampo four sigmatic and eight sleep. check them out in the description to. support this podcast. as a side note let me say that in these. conversations for better or worse.

i seek understanding not activism. i'm not left nor right i love ideas. not labels and most fascinating ideas. are full of uncertainty. tension and trade-offs labels destroy. that. i try ideas out let them breathe for. time try to challenge. explore and analyze but mostly i trust. the intelligence. of you the listener to think and to make. up your own mind. together with me i will try to have.

economists and philosophers on from all. points on the. multi-dimensional political spectrum. including the extremes. i will try to both have an open mind and. to ask difficult questions when needed. i'll make mistakes don't shoot this. robot at the first sign of failure. i'm still under development pre-release. version 0.1. this is the lex friedman podcast and. here is my conversation with jeremy. sorry you've studied many american. presidents throughout history.

so who do you think was the greatest. president. in american history the greatest. american president was abraham lincoln. uh tolstoy reflected on this himself. actually. uh saying that when he was in the. caucasus he asked these. um peasants in the caucuses who was the. greatest man in the world that they. had heard of and they said abraham. lincoln and why. well because he gave voice to people who. had no voice before. he turned politics into an art this is.

what tolstoy recounted the peasants and. the caucuses telling him. uh lincoln made politics more than about. power he made it an. art he made it a source of liberation. and those living even far from the. united states. could see that model that inspiration. from lincoln he was a man who had two. years of education yet he mastered the. english language. and he used the language to. help people imagine a different kind of. world you see leaders and presidents are. at their best.

when they're doing more than just. manipulating institutions in power. when they're helping the people imagine. a better world and he did that. as no other president has and you say he. gave. he gave voice to those who are voiceless. uh who are you talking to. about in general is this about. african-americans or is this about. just the populist in general certainly. part of it is about. uh slaves uh african-americans and many. immigrants immigrants from all parts of. europe and other areas that have come to. the united states.

but part of it was just for ordinary. american citizens the republican party. for which lincoln was the first. president was a party created to give. voice to. poor white men as well as slaves and. others. and lincoln was a poor white man himself. grew up without slaves and without land. which meant you had almost nothing. what do you think about the trajectory. of that man with only two years of. education. is there something to be said about how. does one come from. nothing and.

nurture the ideals that kind of make. this country great. into something where you can actually be. a leader of this nation. to espouse those ideas to give the voice. to the voiceless. yes i think i think you actually hit the. nail on the head i think. what he represented was the opportunity. and that was the word that mattered for. him. opportunity that came from the ability. to. raise yourself up to work hard and to be. compensated for your hard work and this.

is at the core of the republican party. of the 19th century which is. the core of capitalism it's not about. getting rich it's about getting. compensated for your work. it's about being incentivized to do. better work and lincoln was constantly. striving one of his. closest associates uh herndon said. he was the little engine of ambition. that couldn't stop he just just kept. going. taught himself to read taught himself to. be a lawyer he went through many failed. businesses before he even reached that. point. many failed love affairs but he kept.

trying he kept working. and what american society offered him. and what he wanted american society to. offer everyone else. was the opportunity to keep trying to. fail and then get up. and try again what do you think was the. nature of that ambition was there a. hunger for power. i think lincoln had a hunger for success. i think he had a hunger. to um get out of the poor station he was. in. he had a hunger to be someone who had. control over his life. freedom for him did not mean the right. to do anything you want to do.

but it meant the right to be secure from. being dependent upon someone else. so independence uh he writes in his. letters when he's very young that he. hated being dependent on his father he. grew up without a mother. his father was a struggling farmer and. he would write in his letters that his. father treated him like a slave on the. farm. some think his hatred of slavery came. from that experience. he didn't ever want to have to work for. someone again he wanted to be free and. independent and he wanted again every. american this is the kind of. jeffersonian dream.

to be the owner of themself and the. owner of their future. you know that's a really nice definition. of freedom we often think. kind of this very abstract notion of. being able to do anything you want. but really it's ultimately breaking. yourself free from the the constraints. like the very tight dependence on. whether it's. the institutions or on your family. or the expectations or the community or. whatever. be able to be to realize yourself.

within the constraints of your own. abilities it's still not. true freedom because true freedom is. probably sort of. uh almost like designing a video game. character or something like that. i agree i think uh i think it's exactly. right i think freedom is not. uh that i can have any outcome i want i. can't control outcomes the most powerful. freeze person in the world cannot. control outcomes. but it means at least i get to make. choices someone else doesn't make those. choices for me. is there something to be said about.

lincoln and. on the political game front of it. which is he's accomplished some of them. i i don't know. but it seems like there was some tricky. politics going on. we tend to not think of it in those. terms because of. the dark aspects of slavery we tend to. think about it in sort of ethical and. human terms. but in in their time it was probably. as much a game of politics not just. these broad. questions of human nature right it was.

it was a game. so is there something to be said about. being a skillful player in the game of. politics that. you'd take from lincoln absolutely and. um lincoln never read carl von. clausewitz the great. 19th century german thinker on strategy. and politics but but he. embodied the same wisdom which is that. everything is politics if you want to. get anything done. uh and this includes even relationships. uh. there's a politics to it what does that. mean it means that you you have to. persuade. coerce encourage people to do things.

they wouldn't otherwise do. and lincoln lincoln was a master at that. he was a master that for two reasons he. had learned through his hard life to. read people. to anticipate them to spend a lot of. time listening one thing i often tell. people is the best leaders are the. listeners not the talkers. and then second um lincoln was very. thoughtful and planned. every move out he was thinking three or. four moves maybe five moves down the. chess board. while others were move number one or two. that's fascinating to think.

about him just listening to studying. that's uh you know. they they look at great fighters in this. way like the first few rounds of boxing. and. mixed martial arts you're studying the. movement of your opponent. and in order to sort of uh to find the. holes. that's that's a really interesting frame. to think about it is there. in terms of relationships. where do you think as president or. as a politician is the most impact to be. had. i've been reading a lot about hitler.

recently. and one of the things that i'm more and. more i'm starting to wonder. what the hell did he do alone in a room. with a. one-on-one with people because it seems. like that's where he was exceptionally. effective. when i when i think about certain. leaders. i'm not sure stalin was this way i. apologize been very obsessed with these. with this period of human history uh. it just seems like certain leaders are. extremely effective one-on-one.

a lot of people think of hitler even in. lincoln. as a speech maker as a great charismatic. speech maker. but it seems like to me that some of. these guys were. really effective inside a room and what. do you think. what's more important your effectiveness. to uh. to make a hell of a good speech sort of. being. in a room with many people or is it all. boiled down to one-on-one. well i think in a sense it's both one.

needs to do both and most. politicians most leaders are better at. one or the other it's the rare leader. who can do. both i will say that if you are going to. be. a figure who's a president or the leader. of a complex organization not a startup. but a complex organization where you. have many different constituencies and. many different. interests uh you have to do the. one-on-one really well. because a lot of what's going to happen. is you're going to be meeting with. people who represent different groups. right the. leader of the labor union the leader of.

your investing board etc. and you have to be able to persuade them. and it's the intangibles that often. matter most. lincoln's skill and it's the same that. fdr had um. uh is the ability to tell a story i. think hitler was a little different uh. but. i'm what i've read of stalin is he was a. storyteller too one-on-one storytelling. yeah that's my understanding is that he. he and and what lincoln did i don't want. to compare lincoln to style what lincoln. did. uh is he he was not confrontational. uh he was happy to have an argument if.

an argument were to be had but. actually what he would try to do is move. you. through telling a story that got you to. think about your position in a different. way to basically disarm you. and frankly roosevelt did the same thing. ronald reagan did the same thing. storytelling. is a very important skill it's almost. heartbreaking that. we don't get to have or maybe you can. correct me. if i'm wrong on this but it feels like. we don't have a lot of information how. all of these folks were. in private one-on-one conversations.

even if we get like stories about it. it's like again sorry to bring up hitler. but. like uh people have talked about his uh. piercing gays when they're one-on-one. like there's a feeling like he's just. looking through you. i wonder like it makes me wonder it was. lincoln somebody who's a little bit more. passive. like who's more the ego doesn't shine. it's not like an overwhelming thing or. is it more like um.

again don't want to bring up. controversial figures but uh donald. trump where it's more uh menacing. right there's a more like physically. menacing thing where it's almost like a. almost like a bullying kind of uh. dynamic so i wonder. you know i wish i wish we knew i wish. because. from a psychological perspective i. wonder if there's a thread that connects. most great leaders great question um so. i think the best. writer on this is max weber right and he. talks about the. the power of charisma that the term.

charisma comes from weber right and. weber's use of it actually to talk about. prophets and i think he has a point. right uh leaders who are effective in. the way you describe. are leaders who feel prophetic or weber. says they have a kind of magic about. them. and i think that can come from different. sources i think that can come. that can come from the way someone. carries themselves it can come from the. way they use words. um so maybe there are different kinds of. magic that that that someone develops. but i think there. are two things that that seem to be.

absolutely necessary first is you have. to be someone who sizes up the person on. the other side of the table. you cannot be the person who just comes. in and reads your brief. and then second i think it's interactive. and there is a quickness of thought so. you brought up donald trump i don't. think donald trump is a deep thinker at. all. but he's quick and i think that. quickness. is part of it's different from from. delivering a lecture where it's the. depth of your thought can you for 45. minutes analyze something. many people can't do that but they still. might be very effective.

if they're able to quickly react size up. the person on the other side of the. table and react in a way that moves that. person in the way they want to move them. yeah and there's also just a coupled. with the quickness as a kind of. instinct about human nature yes. sort of asking the question what does. this person worry about. what is it what are the biggest problems. somebody uh. what is this steven schwartzman i think. said to me he's this businessman. i think he said like what i've always.

tried to do. is try to figure out like ask enough. questions to figure out what is the. biggest. problem in this person's life try to get. a sense of what is the biggest problem. in their life. because that's actually what they care. about most and most people don't care. enough to. find out and so he kind of wants to. sneak up on that right and and find that. and then. use that to then build closeness in. order to then probably he doesn't put in.

those words but to manipulate the person. into whatever to do whatever the heck. they want and i think. i i think part of it uh part of it is. that and part of. the effectiveness donald trump has is. how quick he's able to figure that out. you've uh written a book about how the. role. and power of the presidency has changed. so. has how has it changed since lincoln's. time. the evolution of the presidency as a. concept which seems like a fascinating.

lens through which to look at american. history sure. as a president you know we seem to only. be talking about the presidents. maybe a general here and there but it's. mostly the. the story of america is often told. through. presidents that's right that's right and. one of the points i've tried to make. in my writing about this and and various. other activities is. we use this word president as if it's. something timeless but the office has. changed. incredibly just in link from lincoln's. time to the present which is you know.

150 years. he wouldn't recognize the office uh. today and george washington would not. have recognized it in lincoln. just as i think a ceo today would be. unrecognizable. to a rockefeller or a carnegie of 150. years ago. so what are some of the ways in which. the office has changed i'll just point. to three there are. a lot uh one uh presidents now can. communicate. with the public directly i mean we've. reached the point now where president. can have direct almost one-on-one. communication president can use twitter.

if he so chooses to circumvent. all media that was unthinkable lincoln. in order to get his message across. often wrote letters to newspapers and. waited for the newspaper for horus. greeley in the new york tribune to. publish. uh his letter that's how he communicated. with the public there weren't even many. speaking opportunities so that's a big. change right. we feel the president in our life much. more that's why we talk about him much. more. that also creates more of a burden. that's the second point presidents are. under a microscope. presidents are under a microscope you.

have to be very careful what you do and. what you say and you're judged by a lot. of the. elements of your behavior that are not. policy relevant in fact the things we. judge most and make most of our. decisions on about individuals are often. that uh and then. third um the power the president has. um it's it's inhuman actually and this. is one of my critiques of how the office. has changed this one person. has power on a scale that's that's i. think dangerous in a democracy. and certainly something the founders 220.

years ago would have had trouble. conceiving um. presidents now have the ability to. deliver force across the world to. to literally assassinate people with a. remarkable accuracy. uh and that's an enormous power that. presidents have so your sense. this is not to get conspiratorial but do. you think. a president currently has the power to. you know initiate the assassination of. somebody. of a political um enemy.

or like a terrorist leader or that kind. of thing to. to frame that person in a way where. assassination is something that he alone. or she alone could decide to do i think. it happens all the time and it's not to. be conspiratorial this is how we fought. terrorism. by uh targeting individuals now you. might say these were not elected leaders. of state but these were individuals with. a large following i mean the killing of. osama bin laden. was was an assassination uh operation um. and we've we've taken out very.

successfully many leaders of terrorist. organizations and. and we do it every day you're saying. that back in lincoln's time or george. washington's time there was more of a. balance of power like. a president could not initiate this kind. of assassination correct i think. presidents did not have the same kind of. military. or economic power we could talk about. how a president can influence a market. right by saying something pretty about. uh. where uh money is going to go or uh. singling out a company or critiquing a. company in one way or another.

they didn't have that kind of power now. much of the power that a lincoln or. a washington had was the power to. mobilize people to then make their own. decisions. at the start of the civil war lincoln. doesn't even have the power to bring. people into the army he has to go to the. governors. and ask the governors to provide. soldiers so the governor of wisconsin. the governor of massachusetts could you. imagine that today. so but yeah so they used speeches and. words to mobilize. versus direct action in closed-door.

environments. initiating wars for example correct. it's difficult to think about if we look. at barack obama for example. this if you're listening to this and. you're on the left or the right. please do not make this political in. fact if you're a political person. and you're getting angry at the mention. of the word obama or donald trump. please turn off this podcast we're not. going to get very far. i hope we maintain a political.

discussion about. even the modern presidents that uh. view through the lens of history i think. there's a lot to be learned through. about. about the office and about human nature. some people criticize. barack obama for for sort of uh. expanding the. the military-industrial complex engaging. in more. and more wars as opposed to sort of the. initial. rhetoric was such that we would pull. back. uh from sort of be more skeptical in our.

decisions to. wage wars so from the lens of the power. of the presidency. as the modern presidency the fact that. we continued the war in afghanistan and. different engagements. in military conflicts do you think. barack obama could have stopped that. do you put the responsibility on that. expansion on. him because of the implied power that. the presidency has. or is this power just sits there and if.

a president chooses to take it they do. and if they don't they don't almost like. you don't want to. get take on the responsibility because. of the the burden of that responsibility. so a lot of my research is about this. exact question not just with obama. and my conclusion and i think the. research is pretty clear on this is that. structure has a lot more effect on us. than we like to admit. which is to say that the circumstances. the institutions around us drive our. behavior. more than we like to think so barack.

obama i'm quite certain. came into the office of the presidency. committed to actually reducing the use. of military force overseas and reducing. presidential war-making power. uh as a trained lawyer he had a moral. position on this actually. and he tried and and he did withdraw. american forces from iraq and was of. course criticized by many people for. doing that. but at the same time he had some real. problems in the world to deal with. terrorism being one of them and the. tools he has. are very much biased towards the use of. military force.

it's much harder as president to go and. get vladimir putin and xi jinping to. agree with you. it's much easier to send these wonderful. toys we have and these incredible. soldiers. we have over there and when you have. congress which is always against you. it's also easier to use the military. because you send them there and even if. members of congress from your own party. or the other. are angry at you they'll still fund the. soldiers no member of congress wants to. vote. to starve our soldiers overseas so. they'll stop your budget they'll even. threaten not to pay the debt.

but they'll still fund your soldiers and. so you are pushed by the circumstances. you're in. to do this and it's very hard to resist. so that's. i think the criticism of obama the fair. one would be that he didn't resist the. pressures. that were there but he did not make. those pressures so. is there something about the putting the. responsibility on the president to. to form the structure around him locally. such that he can. make the policy that the that matches.

the rhetoric so. what i'm talking to is hiring. so basically just everybody you work. with. you have power as a president to to fire. and hire or to. to basically schedule meetings in such a. way that. can control your decision making so. i imagine it's very difficult to to uh. get out of afghanistan or iraq. when most of your scheduled meetings are. with generals.

or something like that but if you. reorganize the schedule. yes and you reorganize who you have like. late night talks with. you potentially have a huge ripple. effect on the. on the policy i think that's right i. think uh who has access to the president. is absolutely crucial. and presidents have to be more strategic. about that they tend to be reacting to. crises. because every day has a crisis yeah and. if you're reacting to a crisis you're. not controlling access because the. crisis is driving you. so that's one element of it but i also. think and this is the moment we're in. right now.

presidents have to invest in reforming. the system. the system of decision making should we. have a national security council that. looks the way. it does should our military be. structured the way it is the the. founding fathers wanted a military that. was divided they did not want a unified. department of defense that was only. created after world war ii. should we have as large a military as we. have should we be in as many places. there are some fundamental structural. reforms we have to undertake. and part of that is who you appoint but. part of that is also how you change the. institutions.

the genius of the american system is. that it's a dynamic system. it can be adjusted it has been adjusted. over time that's the. heroic story the the frustrating story. is it often takes us a long time to make. those adjustments until we go. into such bad circumstances that we have. no choice. so in the battle of power of the. office of the president versus the. united states military. the department of defense do you have a. sense that the president has more power.

ultimately so to decrease the size of. the department of defense to withdraw. from any wars. or increase the amount of wars is the. president. you're kind of implying the president. has a lot of power here in this scale. yes the president has a lot of power and. we are fortunate and it was just proven. in the last few years. that our military uniquely among many. countries with large militaries. is very deferential to the president and. very restricted in its ability to. challenge the president.

so that's a strength of our system but. the way you reform the military is not. with individual decisions it's by. by having a strategic plan that. re-examines what role it plays so it's. not just about whether we're in. afghanistan or not the question we have. to ask is. when we look at our toolbox of what we. can do in our foreign policy. are there other tools we should build up. and therefore some tools in the military. we should reduce. that's the broader strategic question.

let me ask you the most. absurd question of all that you did not. sign up for. but it's especially i've been hanging. out with a guy named joe rogan recently. sure so it's very important um. for from for me and him to figure this. out if a president. because you said you implied the. president is very powerful if a. president shows up. and and the u.s government is in fact in. possession of aliens. alien spacecraft do you think. the president will be told a more. responsible adult.

historian question version of that is uh. is there some things that the machine of. government keeps. secret from the president or is the. president ultimately at the very center. so if you like map out. the set of information and power you. have like cia you have all these. organizations that like. that do the the machinery of government. not just like the passing of bills but. like. uh gaining information homeland security.

uh actually like engaging in wars. you know all those kinds of things uh. how. central is the president would the. president know some of the shady things. that are going on. aliens or some kind of. cyber security stuff against russia and. china all those kinds of things. is the president really made aware and. how if so. how nervous does that make you so um. presidents like leaders of any complex. organizations.

uh don't know everything that goes on uh. they have to ask the right questions. this is machiavelli. most important thing a leader has to do. is ask the right questions you don't. have to know the answers. that's why you hire smart people but you. have to ask the right questions. so if the president asks the u.s. government those who are responsible for. the aliens are responsible for the cyber. warfare against russia. they will answer honestly they will have. to but they will not volunteer that. information. in all cases so the best way a president.

can operate is to have people. around him or her who are not the. traditional policy makers this is where. i think. academic experts are important. suggesting questions. to ask to therefore try to get the. information. it makes me nervous because i think. human nature is such that. the the academics the experts. everybody is almost afraid to ask the. questions. for which the answers might.

be burdensome and so that's right. and you can get into a lot of trouble. not asking it's the old. elephant in the room correct correct. this is exactly right and too often. mediocre leaders. and those who try to protect them try to. shield themselves they don't want to. know certain things. so this is part of what happened with. the use of torture by the united states. which is a war crime. during the war on terror president bush.

at times. intentionally did not ask and people. around him prevented him from asking or. discouraged him from asking questions he. should have asked. to know about what was going on and. that's how we ended up. where we did you could say the same. thing about reagan and iran contra. i wonder what it takes to be the kind of. leader. that steps in and asks some difficult. questions so. aliens is one ufo spacecraft right. another one yeah torture is another one. the cia. how much information is being collected.

about americans. i can see as a president being very. uncomfortable asking that question. because if the answer is a lot of. information is being collected by. of americans then you have to be the guy. who's lives with that information for. the rest of your life. you have to walk around you're probably. not going to. reform that system it's very difficult. you have to you probably have to be very. picky about which things you reform. you don't have much time it takes a lot. of sort of effort to restructure things.

but you nevertheless would have to be. basically lying. to uh to the you know to to. to yourself to others around you about. the unethical things. depends of course what your ethical. system is. i wonder what it takes to ask those hard. questions. i wonder if how few of us. are can be great leaders like that and i. wonder if our political system. the electoral system such that.

makes it likely that such leaders will. come to power. it's hard and you can't ask all the. right questions and there is a legal. hazard if you know things. at certain times but i think you can. back to your point on hiring you can. hire people who will do that in their. domains. and then you have to trust that when. they think it's something that's a. question you need to ask they'll pass. that on to you. this is why it's not a good idea to have. loyalists because loyalists will shield. you from things it's a good idea to have. people of integrity. uh who you can rely on and who you think.

will ask those right questions and then. pass that down through their. organization. what's inspiring to you what's. insightful to you about. several of the presidencies throughout. the recent decades. is there somebody that stands out to you. that's interesting. in in sort of in your study of how the. office has changed. well bill clinton is one of the most. fascinating figures why can't i. i apologize bill clinton just puts a. smile on my face every time somebody. mentions him at this point i don't know.

why. he's it's charisma i suppose well and. he's uh he's. he's a unique individual but but uh he. um. he fascinates me uh because he's a. figure of such. enormous talent and enormous appetite. and such little self-control uh and such. er extremes uh and and i think it's not. just that he tells us something about. the presidency he tells us something. about our society uh you know american. society this is not new to our time. is filled with enormous enormous.

reservoirs of talent and creativity. and those have a bright and a dark side. and you see both with bill clinton in. some ways he's the mirror. of the best and worst of our society and. maybe that's really what presidents are. in the end right they're mirrors of our. world. that we get the government we deserve we. get the leaders we deserve i wish we. embraced that a little bit more. you know a lot of people criticize you. know donald trump for certain. human qualities that he has a lot of. people criticize. bill clinton for certain human qualities. i wish we kind of embraced the chaos of.

that. you know because he he does you're right. in some sense represent. i mean he doesn't represent the greatest. ideal of america but. the flawed aspect of human nature is. what he represents and that's the. beautiful thing about america the. diversity. of this land with the the the mix of it. the the. the corruption of of within capitalism. the the beauty of capitalism the. innovation all those kinds of things the. people that. start from nothing and create everything.

the elon musks of the world and the bill. gates and so on. but also the people bernie madoff's and. and. and all is the me too movie that showed. the the multitude of creeps that. apparently. permeate the entirety of our system so i. don't know there's something um. there is some sense in which we put our. president on a pedestal. which actually creates. a fake human being like we.

the the standard we hold them to is. forcing the fake politicians to come to. power. versus the authentic one which is in. some sense the promise of donald trump. is uh a like it's a it's a definitive. statement of authenticity. it's like this the opposite of the fake. politician. it's whatever else you want to say about. him is there's. the the chaos that's unlike anything. else that's uh came before. one thing and this in particular may be. preference and quirk of mine.

but i really admire maybe i'm. romanticizing the past again. but i romanticized the presidents that. were students of history yeah. they were almost like king philosophers. you know great gr you know that made. speeches. that um you know reverberated through. decades after. right then we we kind of using the words. of those presidents whether written by. them or not.

we tell the story of america and. i don't know even obama has been an. exceptionally good as far. as i know i apologize if i'm incorrect. on this but. from everything i've seen he was a very. deep scholar of history. and i really admire that is that. through the through the history of the. office of the presidency. is that just your own preference or is. that supposed to come with a job. are you supposed to be a student of. history i think i mean i'm obviously.

biased as a historian but i do think it. comes with a job. every president i've studied uh. had a serious interest in history now. how they. pursued that interest would vary uh. obama was. more bookish more academic so was george. w bush in strange ways. george h.w bush was less so but george. h.w bush loved to talk to people so he. would talk to historians right. ronald reagan uh loved movies and movies. were. uh an insight into history for him he.

likes to watch movies about another time. it wasn't always the best of history but. he was interested. in what is a fundamental historical. question how has. how has our society developed how has it. grown and changed over time. and how has that change affected who we. are today that's the historical question. it's really interesting to me i do a lot. of work with business leaders and others. too. you reach a certain point in any career. and you become a historian. because you realize that the formulas.

and the technical knowledge that you've. gained. got you to where you are but now your. decisions are about human nature. your decisions are about social change. and they can't be answered. technically they can only be answered by. studying human beings. and what is history it's studying the. laboratory of human behavior. to sort of play devil's advocate i kind. of. especially in the engineering scientific. domains. i often see history holding us back.

instead of the way things were done in. the past are not necessarily going to. hold the key. to what. will progress us into the future. of course with history in studying human. nature it does seem like humans are just. the same. it's just like the same problems over. and over so. in that sense it feels like history has. all the lessons. whether we're talking about wars whether. we're talking about corruption. whether we're talking about economics.

i think there's a difference between um. history and antiquarianism. so antiquarianism which some people call. history. is the desire to go back to the past or. stay stuck in the past so antiquarianism. is the desire to have. the desk that abraham lincoln sat at. wouldn't it be cool to sit at his desk. i'd love to have that desk if i had a. few extra million dollars i'd acquire it. right. so in a way uh that's antiquarianism. that's trying to capture and hold on. hold on to the past the past is a. talisman for antiquarians.

um what history is is the study of. change over time that's the real. definition of historical. study and historical thinking and so. what we're studying is. change and so a historian should never. say. um we have to do things the way we've. done them in the past the historians. should say we can't. do them the way we did them in the past. we can't step in the same river twice. every podcast of yours is different from. the last one. right you plan it out and then it goes. in its own direction right. yeah um and um what are we studying then.

in history we're studying. the patterns of change and we're. recognizing we're part of a pattern so. what i would say to. the historian who's trying to hold the. engineer back i'd say no. don't tell that engineer not to do this. tell them to understand how this fits. into the relationship with other. engineering products and other. activities from the past that still. affect us today for example. any product you produce is going to be. used by human beings who have prejudices. it's going to go into an unequal society.

don't assume it's going to go into an. equal society don't assume that when you. create a social media site. that people are going to use it fairly. and put only truthful things on it. we shouldn't be surprised that's where. human nature comes in. but it's not trying to hold on to the. past it's trying to use the knowledge in. the past to better inform the changes. today. i have to ask you about george. washington it may be maybe you have some. insights. it seems like he's such a fascinating. figure. in the context of the study of power. because i kind of intuitively have come.

to. internalize the belief that power. corrupts and absolute power crops. absolutely yes. and then and and sort of like. basically in thinking that we have to we. cannot trust any one individual i can't. trust myself with power i can't. nobody can trust anybody with power we. have to create institutions and. structures that prevent us from. ever being able to amass absolute power. and yet. here's a guy george washington who seems.

to. you can correct me if i'm wrong but he. seems to give away relinquished power. uh it feels like george washington did. it. like almost like the purest of ways. which is uh believes in this country. but he just believes he's not the person. to to uh. to uh to carry it forward. i wha what do you make of that what kind. of human does it take to really. to give away that power is there some. hopeful message we can.

carry through to the future to to to. elect leaders like that. or to or to uh find friends to hang out. with who are like that. like what is that how do you explain. that so it's uh it's actually the most. important thing about george washington. it's the right thing to to bring up. um what uh the historian gary wills. wrote years ago i'm going to quote him. was that washington recognized that. sometimes you get more power by giving. it up. than by trying to hold on to every last. piece of it.

uh washington gives up power at the end. of the revolution he's successfully. carried through the revolutionary war. aims he's commander of the. revolutionary forces and he gives up his. command and then of course he's. president and after two terms he gives. up his command. what is he doing he's an ambitious. person but he's recognizing that. the most important currency he has for. power. is his respected status as a. disinterested statesman. that's really what his power is and how. does he further that power.

by showing that he doesn't crave power. so he was self-aware very self-aware of. this and very sophisticated in. understanding. understanding this and and i think there. are many other leaders who. who recognize that um you can look to. uh in some ways um the story of many of. our presidents who. even before there is a two-term limit in. the constitution leave after two terms. um they do that because they recognize. that their power is the power of being a.

statesman. not of being a president i still wonder. what kind of man it takes. what kind of human being it takes to do. that because i've been. studying vladimir putin quite a bit. right. and he's still i believe. he still has popular support that that's. not. fully manipulated because i know a lot. of people in russia and actually. almost the entirety of my family in. russia are big supporters of putin.

and everybody i talk to sort of that's. not just like on social media. right like the people that live in. russia seems to. seem to support him it feels like. this would be in a george washington way. now would be the time that what putin. just like yatsen could relinquish power. and thereby in the eyes of russians. become in in like the long arc of. history. be viewed as a great leader you look at.

the economic growth of russia. you look at the rescue from the collapse. of the soviet union and russia. finding its footing and then. relinquishing power. in a way that that perhaps if russia. succeeds. forms a truly democratic state this. would be. how putin can become one of the great. leaders in russian history. at least in the in the context of the. 21st century. i think there are two reasons why this. is really hard. for putin and for others one is.

the trappings of power are very. seductive as you said before they're. corrupting. this is a real problem right if it's in. the business context you don't want to. give up that private jet. if it's in putin's context it's billions. of dollars every year that he's able to. take for himself or give to his friends. it's not that he'll be poor if he leaves. he'll still be rich. and he has billions of dollars stored. away but he won't be able to get the new. billions. and so that's part of the trappings of. power are a big deal.

and then second in putin's case in. particular he has to be worried about. what happens next. will he be tried will someone you know. try to come and arrest him will someone. try to come and assassinate him. um washington recognized that leaving. early. limited the corruption and limited the. enemies that you made. and so it was a strategic choice putin. has at this point been in power too long. and this comes back to your. core insight it's a cliche but it's true. power corrupts. no one should have power for too long. this was one of the best insights the.

founders of the united states had. that power was to be held for a short. time as a fiduciary responsibility. not as something you owned right this is. the problem with monarchy with. aristocracy that you own power. right we don't own power we we're in. holding it in trust. yeah there's uh there's some probably. like. very specific psychological study of uh. how many years it takes for you to. forget. that you can't own power that's right. there's you know.

that's could be a much more rigorous. discussion about the length of terms. that are appropriate. but really there's an amount like stalin. had power for 30 years like putin is. pushing. those that many years already. there's a certain point where you forget. the person you were before you took the. power that's right. you forget to be humble in the face of. this responsibility. and then there's no going back that's. right that's how dictators are born. that's how the evil like authoritarians.

become. evil or let's not use the word evil but. uh counterproductive destructive to the. to the ideal that they initially. probably came to office with that's. right that's right one of the. core historical insights is people. should move jobs. and it supplies for ceos probably. absolutely apps they can go become ceo. somewhere else but. don't stay ceo one place too long it's a. problem with startups right the founder. you can have a brilliant founder. and that founder doesn't want to let go.

yeah right it's the same issue. at the same time i mean this is where. elon musk and. a few others like uh larry page and. sergey brin. that stayed for quite a long time and. they actually were the beacon. they on their shoulders carried the. dream the company. yeah where everybody else doubted so but. that seems to be the exception. right versus the rule well and even. sergey for example right. has stepped back right he plays less of. a day-to-day role and.

is not running google and the way he did. the interesting thing is he stepped back. in a quite tragic way from what i've. seen which is. i i think google's mission an initial. mission. of making the world's information. accessible to everybody. is one of the most beautiful missions of. any company in the history of the world. i think it's. what google has done with a search. engine and. um and other efforts that are similar. like scanning. a lot of books it's just incredible it's. similar to.

wikipedia but. what he said was that it's not the same. company. anymore and i i know maybe i'm reading. too much into it. because it's more maybe practically. saying just the size of the company's. much larger the kind of leadership. that's required. but at the same time sure they change. the model from. you know don't be evil to it's becoming. corporatized and all those kinds of. things and. it's sad it um there also are cycles. right history is about cycles right.

there there are cycles to life. there's cycles to organizations it's sad. i mean it's sad steve jobs leaving apple. by. passing away sad you know what the. future of spacex and tesla looks like. without elon musk. is quite sad it's very possible that. those companies become something very. different. they become something much more you know. like corporate. and uh stale. yeah so maybe maybe most of progress is.

made through cycles maybe a new elon. musk comes along. all those kinds of things but it does. seem that the american. system of government has has uh. built into it the cycling yes. that makes it effective and it makes it. last very long it lasts a very long time. right it continues to excel and lead the. world. sure sure and let's hope it continues to. no it's. i mean we we're into you know a third. century. and democracies on this scale uh rarely.

last that long. so that that's that's a point of pride. but it also means we need to be. attentive to keep our house in order. because. it's not inevitable that this experiment. continues. now it's important to meditate on that. actually uh you've mentioned that fdr. franklin d roosevelt is one of the great. leaders. in american history why is that franklin. roosevelt. had the power of empathy no. leader that i have ever studied or been.

around or spent any time reading about. was able to connect with people who were. so different from himself. as franklin roosevelt he came from the. most elite family he. never had to work for a paycheck in his. life when he was president he was still. collecting an allowance from his mom. i mean you couldn't be more elite than. franklin roosevelt. but he authentically connected this was. not. you know propaganda he was able to feel. the pain and understand the lives of. some of the most destitute. americans in other parts of the country.

it's interesting so through the. one of the hardest economic periods of. american history he was able to feel the. pain he was able to. the number of immigrants i read oral. histories from or who have written. themselves saul bella was one example. the great novelist who talked about how. as immigrants to the u.s although i was. a russian jewish immigrant. he said growing up in chicago. politicians were all trying to steal. from us. i didn't think any of them cared until i. heard fdr and i knew he spoke to me. uh and and i think part of it was fdr.

really tried to understand people that's. the first he was humble enough to try to. do that. but second he had a talent for that and. it's hard to know exactly what it was. but he had a talent for putting himself. imagining himself. in someone else's shoes. what stands out to you as uh important i. mean he said he was uh he went through. the great depression. the so the new deal which some people. criticized some people see i mean it's. it's funny to look at some of these. policies and they're long.

ripple effects but at the time. it's some of the most uh innovative. policies yes in the in the history of. america you could say. they're ultimately not good for america. but they're nevertheless. hold within them very rich and important. lessons. but then you deal obviously world war ii. of that entire process is there. something that stands out to you as a. particularly great moment. that made fdr yes i think.

uh what fdr does from his first 100 days. in office forward. and this begins with his fireside chats. is he helps. americans to see that they're all in it. together. and that's by creating hope and creating. a sense of. common suffering and common mission it's. not offering simple solutions one of the. lessons from fdr. is if you want to bring people together. don't offer a simple solution. because as soon as i offer a simple. solution i have people for it and. against it.

don't do that explain the problem frame. the problem. and then give people a mission so. roosevelt's first. uh radio address uh in march of 1933 the. banking system is collapsing. and we can't imagine it right banks were. closing and you couldn't get your money. out your life savings would be lost. right we can't imagine that happening in. our world today. he comes on the radio he takes five. minutes to explain how banking works. most people didn't understand how. banking worked right they don't actually. hold your money in a vault. they lend it out to someone else and.

then he explains why if you go. and take your money out of the bank and. put it in your mattress you're making it. worse for yourself. he explains this uh and then he says i. don't he does. i don't have a solution but here's what. i'm gonna do i'm gonna send in. government. uh officers to examine the banks and. show you the books on the banks. and i want you to help me by going and. putting your money back in the banks. we're all gonna do this together no. simple solution no ideological statement. but a sense of common mission let's go. out and do this together.

when you read as i have so many of these. oral histories and memoirs for people. who lived through that period. many of them disagreed with some of his. policies many of them thought he was too. close to jews and they didn't like the. fact he had a woman in his cabinet and. all that. but they felt he cared and they felt. they were part of some common mission. and when they talk about their. experience fighting in world war ii. whether in europe or asia. it was that that prepared them they knew. what it meant to be an american. when they were over there so that to me. is a model of leadership.

and i think that's as possible today as. it's ever been so you think it's. possible like. i was going to ask this again it may be. a very shallow. view but it feels like this country is. is more divided than it has been in uh. recent history. perhaps the social media and all those. kinds of things are. merely revealing the division as opposed. to creating the division. but is it possible to have a leader.

that unites in the same way that fdr did. without well. we're living through a pandemic this is. already yes. so like i was gonna say without. suffering but there's this is economic. suffering. right huge number of people have lost. their job so is it possible to have. uh is there one a hunger is is there a. possibility to have an fdr. style leader who unites yes i think that. is what president biden is trying i'm. not saying he i'm not saying he'll he'll. succeed but i think that's what he's. trying to do. the way you do this is you do not allow.

yourself to be captured by your. opponents. in congress or somewhere else fdr had a. lot of opponents in congress he had a. lot of opponents in politics. governors and others who didn't like him. uh herbert hoover was still around. and still accusing fdr of being you know. a conspiratorist and all these other. things so. um you don't allow yourself to be. captured by the leaders of the other. side you go over their heads to the. people. and so today the way to do this is to. explain to people and empathize with the.

suffering and dislocation and. difficulties they're dealing with. and show that you're trying to help them. not an easy solution. not a simple statement but here are some. things we can all do. together that's why i think. infrastructure makes a lot of sense it's. what fdr invested into. right fdr built hoover dam hoover dam. turned the lights on. for young lyndon johnson who grew up. outside of austin right. fdr was the one who invested in road. construction that was then continued by. dwight eisenhower by a republican with. the interstate highway system.

right fdr invested through the wpa in. building thousands of schools in our. country planting trees. that's the kind of work that can bring. people together. you don't have to be a democrat or. republican to say you know what we'd be. a lot better off in my community if we. had better infrastructure today. i want to be a part of that or well. maybe i can get a job doing that maybe. my company. can benefit from that you bring people. together and that way it becomes a. common mission. even if we have different ideological. positions yeah it's funny i.

i've uh when i first heard joe biden i. think many. i mean many years ago i think he went. for president against. obama and i. before i heard him speak i really liked. him but once i heard him speak i stopped. i. started like him less and less and it. speaks to something. interesting where it's hard to put into. words. what why you connect with people the. empathy that you mentioned in fdr. you have like these bad pardon the.

french motherfuckers like teddy. roosevelt. that connect with you there's something. just powerful. and with joe biden i can't i i want to. really like him and like. there's something not quite there where. it feels like he doesn't. quite know my pain even though he. on paper is exactly you know he knows. the pain of the people and there's. something not connecting and it's. it's hard to explain it's hard to put. into words and uh. it makes me not uh. as a engineer and scientist it makes me.

not feel good about. like presidencies because it makes me. feel like it's more. art than science it is an art and and i. think it's exactly an art for the. reasons you laid out it's aesthetic. it's about feeling it's about emotion. all the things that we can't engineer. we've tried for. centuries to engineer emotion we're. never gonna do it don't try it i'm a. parent of teenagers. don't even try to explain emotion um. but you hit on the key point of the key. challenge for biden he's got to find the. right words. yeah it's not finding the words to.

bullshit people. yeah it's finding the words to help. express we've all felt. empowered and felt good when someone. uses words that put into words what. we're feeling. yeah that's what he needs that's the job. of a leader and there's certain words. i haven't heard many politicians use. those words but there's certain words. that. like make you forget. that uh that you're for immigration or. uh against immigration make you forget. whether you're four wars and against. wars. but you forget about like the bickering.

and. somehow like uh inspire you like elevate. you. to believe in the greatness that this. country could be yes. um in that same way like the reason i. moved to austin. is funny to say is like i just heard. words from people from friends. where they're excited by the possibility. of the future here. i wasn't thinking like what's the right. thing to do what's like. strategic because i want to launch a. business there's a lot of arguments with. san francisco or maybe staying in boston.

in my case. but there's this excitement that. that was beyond reason that was. emotional yes yes. and that that's that's what it seems. like that's what builds. that's what great leaders do but that's. what builds countries that's what build. grades. great businesses that's right and it's. what people say about austin for example. all the time yeah a talented people who. come here like yourself. and here's the interesting thing no one. person creates that the words emerge. and part of what fdr understood is.

you've got to find the words out there. and use them. yeah you don't have to be the creator of. them right just as the great painter. doesn't invent the painting they're. taking things from others. as a small aside is there something you. could say about. fdr and hitler. i constantly tried to think can can this. person can this moment in history have. been. um circumvented prevented. can hitler have been stopped can some of.

the atrocities from my own family. that like my grandparents had to live. through the. the starvation in the soviet union so. the thing that people don't often talk. about. is the atrocities committed by stalin. and his own people. it feels like here's this great leader. fdr that had the chance to. um to have an impact on the world. that um he already probably had a great.

positive. impact but had a had a chance to stop. maybe world war ii. or st stop some of the evils when you. look at what. how weak hitler was from much of the 30s. relative to militarily. relative to everything else how many. people could have done a lot to stop him. and fdr in particular didn't. he tried to play.

not pacify but basically do diplomacy. and. let let germany do germany let europe do. europe. and focus on america is there is there. something you would uh would you hold. his feet to the fire on this. or is it very difficult from the. perspective of fdr to have known. what was coming i think fdr had a sense. of what was coming not. quite the enormity of what hitler was. doing and not quite the enormity of what. the holocaust became i also lost. relatives in the holocaust um.

and part of that was beyond the. imagination of human beings yes but it's. clear in his papers. um that as early as 1934 people he. respected who he knew well told him that. hitler was. very dangerous they also thought it was. crazy that he was a lunatic. hamilton fish armstrong who is a friend. of of roosevelt. uh who was actually the council on. foreign relations in new york had a. meeting with hitler in 1934 i remember. reading the account of this. uh and he basically said definitely this. man is going to cause a war he's going. to cause a lot of damage again they. didn't know quite the scale.

so they saw this coming they saw this. coming fdr had two problems. first he had an american public that was. deeply isolationist. the opposite of the problem in a sense. that we were talking about before if. we're an over militarized society. now we were a deeply isolationist. society in the 1930s the the depression. reinforced that. fdr actually had to break the law in the. late 30s to support the allies. so it was very hard to move the country. in that direction especially when he had. this program at home. the new deal that he didn't want to.

jeopardize by alienating an isolationist. public that was the reality we talked. about political manipulation he had to. be. conscious of that he had to know his. audience and second. there were no allies willing to invest. in this either. the british were as uh as committed to. appeasement as you know you're obviously. very knowledgeable about this the the. french were as well. it was very hard the russian government. the soviet government was cooperating to. re-militarize. germany so there weren't a lot of allies. out there either. um i think if there's a criticism to be.

made of fdr. it's that once we're in the war. he didn't do enough to stop in. particular the killing of jews. and there are a number of historians. myself included who have written about. this and it's an endless debate what. should he have done. there's no doubt by 1944 the united. states had. air superiority and could have bombed. the rail lines to auschwitz. and other camps that would have saved as. many as a million jews that's a lot of. people. who could have been saved why didn't fdr. insist on that.

um in part because he wanted to use. every resource possible to win the war. he did not want to be accused of. fighting the war for jews but i think. it's also fair to say that he probably. cared less about jews. and east europeans than he did about. others um. those of his own dutch ancestry and and. from western europe and so. you know even there race comes in is. also the explanation for the internment. of japanese in the united states which. is a horrible. war crime committed by this heroic. president 120 000 japanese-american. citizens. lost their freedom unnecessarily so he.

had his limitations. and and i think he could have done more. during the war. to save many more lives and i wish he. had and there's something. to be said about empathy that you spoke. that fdr had. empathy but us for example now there's. many people who describe the atrocities. happening in china. and there's a bunch of places across the. world where there's atrocities happening. now and. we care. we do not uniformly apply how much we.

care for the suffering of others. that's correct depending on the group. that's correct and in some sense. the role of the president is to uh. to uh rise above that natural human. inclination to protect. to do the us versus them to protect. protect the inner circle. and empathize with the suffering of. those that are not like you. that's correct i agree with that yeah. speaking of war you wrote a book on.

henry kissinger. it's not a great transition but it made. sense in my head. who was henry kissinger as a man and as. a historical figure. so henry kissinger to me is one of the. most fascinating figures in history. because he comes to the united states as. a german jewish immigrant at age 15. speaking no english and within a few. years. he's a major figure influencing u.s. foreign policy at the height of u.s. power but while he's doing that he he's.

never elected to office. and he's constantly reviled by people. including people who are anti-semitic. because he's. jewish but at the same time also his. exoticism makes him more attractive to. people. so someone like nelson rockefeller wants. kissinger around he's one of kissinger's. first patrons because he wants a really. smart jew. and kissinger is going to be that smart. jewel i called kissinger a policy jew. there were these court jews in the 16th. and 17th and 18th centuries in europe. every king wanted the jew to manage his.

banking. and in a sense in the united states in. the second half of the 20th century many. presidents want a. jew to manage their international. affairs and what does that really mean. it's not just about being jewish. it's the internationalism it's the. cosmopolitanism. that's one of the things i was. fascinated with with kissinger someone. like kissinger is unthinkable as a. powerful figure in the united states. 30 or 40 years earlier because the. united states is run by wasps it's run. by. white elites who come from a certain. background. kissinger represents a moment when.

american society opens up not to. everyone. but opens up to these cosmopolitan. figures who have language skills. historical knowledge networks that can. be used for the us government. when after world war ii we have to. rebuild europe when we have to negotiate. with the soviet union when we need the. kinds of knowledge we didn't have before. and harvard where he gets his education. late he started at city college actually. but harvard where he gets his education. late. is at the center of what's happening at. all these major universities at harvard. and yale at stanford at the university.

of texas. everywhere where they're growing in. their international affairs bringing in. the kinds of people who never would be. at the university before. training them and then enlisting them in. cold war. activities and so kissinger is a. representative of that phenomenon i. became interested in him. because i think he's a bellwether he. shows how power has. changed in the united states so he. enters this whole world of. uh politics what post-world war ii. in the 50s yes so he he actually.

in the 40s even it's an extraordinary. story he comes to the united states in. 1938. just before crystal knocked his family. leaves they he actually grew up right. outside of nuremberg. they leave right before kristallnacht in. in fall of 38. come to come to new york he originally. works in a brush factory cleaning. brushes. goes to a public high school and in 1942. just after pearl harbor he joins the. military. and he's very quickly in the military.

first of all given citizenship which he. didn't have before. uh he sent from the first time outside. of a kosher home he had been in a kosher. home his entire life he sent to. south carolina to eat ham for uncle sam. and then he is and this is extraordinary. at the age of 20. uh barely speaking english he is sent. back. to germany with the u.s army in an elite. counter-intelligence role. why because they need german speakers he. came when he was 15 so he actually. understands the society many people have.

that cultural knowledge. and because he's jewish they can trust. that he'll be anti-nazi. and there's a whole group of these. figures he's one of many. and so he's in an elite circle he's. discriminated against in new york. when he goes to harvard after that he. can only live in a jewish-only dorm. but at the same time he's in an elite. policy role in counter-intelligence he. forms a network there. that stays with him the rest of his uh. career. there's a gentleman named fritz cramer. who becomes a sponsor of his.

in the emerging pentagon defense. department world. and as early as the early 1950s he sent. them to korea. to comment on affairs in korea he. becomes both an intellectual recognized. for his connections. but also someone who policymakers want. to talk about his book on nuclear. weapons when it's written. is given to president eisenhower to read. because they say this is someone writing. interesting things you should read. what he says there's a certain aspect to. him that's. kind of like forrest gump he seems to.

continuously be the right person at the. right time in the right place. that's right somehow finding him in this. i don't i don't unders you know. you can only get lucky so many times. because he continues to get lucky. in terms of being at the right place in. in history. for many decades until today yeah well. he has a knack for that he i spend a lot. of time. talking with him um and what comes. through very. quickly is that he has an eye for power.

uh it's i think unhealthy he's obsessed. with power can you explain. like an observer of power or this or. being uh. does he want power himself yes both of. those things both of them. and i think i explained this in the book. uh he doesn't agree with what i'm going. to say now. um but i think i'm right and i think. he's right it's very hard to analyze. yourself right yeah. um i think he develops an obsession with. gaining power because he sees what. happens when you have no power. he experiences the trauma his.

uh father is a very respected gymnasium. lair. in germany even though he's jewish he's. actually the teacher of german classics. to the german kids this is great and. he's forced. to flee and he becomes nothing his. father never really. makes a way for himself in the united. states he becomes a postal delivery. person which is nothing wrong with that. but for someone who's a respected. teacher in germany and game losing there. are like professors there right. to then be in this position his mother. has to open and catering business when.

they come to new york. it's a it's a typical immigrant story. but he sees the trauma. his grandparents are killed by the nazis. um so he sees the trauma. and he realizes how perilous it is to be. without power. and you're saying he does not want to. acknowledge. the the effect of that it's hard. it's hard i mean most of us if we've had. drama. it's believable that it's traumatic. because you don't talk about it i have a. friend who interviews. uh combat veterans and he says as soon. as someone freely wants to tell me about.

their combat trauma. i suspect that they're not telling me. the truth if it's traumatic it's hard to. talk about. yeah sometimes i wonder how much from my. own life. everything that i've ever done is just. the result of my the complicated. relationship with my father. i i tend to. i had a really difficult time did a. podcast conversation with him. i saw it actually perfect it's great. it was i i regret it i never do that.

with my voice. but i i remember as i was doing it and. for months after i regretted doing it. i just kept regretting it and the fact. that i was regretting it. spoke to the to the fact that i'm. running away from some. truths that are back there somewhere. and that's perhaps what kissinger is as. well but. is there i mean he's done he's been a. part of so many interesting. moments of american history of world. history. from the cold war vietnam war until.

today. what stands out to you as a particularly. important moment. um in his career that that made. who he is well i think. uh what made his career in in many ways. uh was uh his experience in the 1950s. building a network. a network of people across the world who. were rising. leaders from unique positions he ran.

what he called the international seminar. at harvard um which was actually a. summer school class that no one at. harvard cared about. but he invited all of these. rising intellectuals and thinkers from. around the world. and he built a network there that he. used uh forevermore so that's what. really i think. boosts him um the most important moments. in terms of making his reputation. making his career or two sets of. activities one is the opening to china.

and his ability to first of all take. control of u.s policy without the. authority to do that and direct u.s. policy. and then build a relationship with mao. tsudung and joe and lai. that was unthinkable just four or five. years earlier uh. of course president nixon is a big part. of that as well but kissinger is the. mover and shaker on that and it's a lot. of manipulation but it's also a vision. now this is put in the moment of. american history where there's a very. powerful anti-communism. correct so communism is seen as.

much more even though than today as the. enemy correct. and china in particular they were one of. our key enemies in uh vietnam. and in korea american forces were. fighting chinese forces directly chinese. forces come over the border. thousands of americans die at the hand. of chinese forces right so for the long. time the united states had no. relationship with communist china he. opens that relationship. and at the same time he also creates a. whole new dynamic in the middle east. after the 1973 war the so-called yom.

kippur war he steps in and becomes the. leading negotiator between the israelis. the egyptians. and other major actors in the region and. it makes the united states the most. powerful actor in the middle east the. soviet union far less powerful. which is great for the united states in. the 70s and 80s it gets us though into. the problems we of course have. thereafter so that that speaks to the. very pragmatic. approach that he's taken um the. realistic approach. versus the idealistic approach uh.

the termed uh real politic what is this. thing. what is it what is this approach to. world politics. so realpolitik for kissinger is um. really focusing on the power centers in. the world. and trying as best you can to manipulate. those power centers to serve the. interests of your own country. and so that's why he's a multilateralist. he's not a unilateralist. he believes the united states should put. itself at the center of negotiations.

between other powerful countries. but that's also why he pays very little. attention to countries that are less. powerful and this is why he's often. criticized by human rights activists. for him parts of africa and latin. america. which you and i would consider important. places are unimportant. because they don't have power they can't. project their power they don't produce a. lot of economic wealth. and so they matter less realpolitik. views the world in a hierarchy of power. how does real politic.

realize itself in the world what what is. it what does that. really mean like how do you uh push. forward the interest of your own country. you said there's power centers. but it uh is a big bold move. to negotiate to work with a communist. nation. with your enemies that are powerful. how what is the sort of if you can. further elaborate sure. philosophy behind it sure so there there. are two key elements that then. end up producing all kinds of tactics. but the two strategic elements of.

kissinger's way of thinking about. realpolitik which are classical ways. going back to thucydides and the greeks. are to say first of all. you figure out who your allies are and. you build webs of connection. so that your allies help you to acquire. what you want to acquire. right this is why according to herodotus. the greeks beat the persians the. persians are bigger but the greeks the. spartans the athenians others are able. to work together and leverage their. resources right. so it's about leveraging your resources. for kissinger this makes western europe.

crucially important. it makes japan crucially important it. makes israel. and egypt crucially important right in. building these webs you. build your surrogates you build your. brother states. in other parts of the world you build. tight connections and you work together. to control. the resources that you want the second. element of the strategy. is not to go to war with your adversary. but to do all you can to limit the power. of your adversary. some of that is containment uh. preventing the soviet union from.

expanding that was the key element of. american cold war policy. but sometimes it's actually negotiation. that's what de tant was about for. kissinger he spends a lot of time more. time than any other. american foreign policymaker negotiating. with soviet leaders. as well as chinese leaders what does he. want to do he wants to limit the nuclear. arms race. the united states is ahead we don't want. the soviet union to get ahead of us we. negotiate um. to limit their abilities right we play. to our strengths. so it's a combination of keeping your.

adversary down and building tight webs. within that context military force is. used but you're not using war for the. sake of war. you're using warfare to further your. access to the resources. economic political geographic that you. want. to build relationships and then the. second thing to limit the powers of. those you're against. exactly so is there any uh sort of um. insights into how he preferred to build. relationships. are we talking about like again it's the.

one-on-one. is it through policy or is it through. like phone conversations. is there any cool kind of insights that. you can speak to yeah kissinger. is the uh ultimate kiss-up. he is some used to make fun of him in. fact even. the film the the filmmaker uh from dr. strangelove who's name i'm forgetting uh. right stanley kubrick. called him kiss up at that time he was. right um. he had a wonderful way of figuring out.

what it is you wanted. back to that discussion we had before. and trying to show how he could give you. more of what you wanted as a leader it. was very personalistic. uh very personalistic and uh he spends a. lot of time for example kissing up to. leonid brezhnev. kissing up to mao he tells mao you're. the greatest leader in the history of. the 20th century people will look back. on you as the great leader. some of this sounds like bs but it's. serious right he's feeding the egos of. those around him. second he is willing to get things done.

for you he's effective. you want him around you because of his. efficacy so richard nixon is always. suspicious that henry kissinger is. getting more of the limelight he hates. that kissinger gets the nobel peace. prize and he doesn't. but he needs him because kissinger is. the guy who gets things done so he. performs. he builds a relationship in almost i say. this in the book in almost a gangster. way he didn't like that he criticized. that part of the book but. again i still think the evidence is. there. you need something to be done boss i'll. do it. and don't forget that i'm doing this for.

you and you get mutual dependency in a. hegelian way right. yeah and and and so he builds this. uh personal dependency through ego and. through performance. and then he's so skillful at making. decisions. for people who are more powerful because. he's never elected to office he always. needs powerful people to. let him do things but he convinces you. it's your decision when it's really his. to read his memos are beautiful he's. actually very skilled at writing things. in a way that.

look looks like he's giving you options. as president. but in fact there's only one option. there. is he speaking to the gangster to the. loyalty. is he ever like the sense i got from. nixon. is he would nixon would backstab you if. he needed to. uh one of the things that. i admire about gangsters. is they don't backstab those in the. inner circle like loyalty above it all.

else i mean at least that's uh the sense. i've gotten from. the stories of the past at least is uh. where would you put kissinger on that. is he loyalty above all all else. or is it our human it's like the steve. jobs thing is like as long as you're. useful you're useful but then. once long the moment you're no longer. useful is uh. when you're knocked off the chessboard. it's the latter with him. he he's backstabbing quite a lot. and he's self-serving um but he also.

makes himself so useful that even though. nixon knows he's doing that. nixon still needs him yeah. by the way on that a point so having. spoken with kissinger. what's your relationship like with him. as somebody who is. in an objective way writing. his story it was very difficult because. uh he's very good at manipulating people. and uh. we had about 12 or 13 interviews usually. informal over lunch um and um.

and this was many years ago but this is. probably not more than 10 years ago. um did you find yourself being like. sweet talked. like to where you like go back home. later and look in the mirror it's like. wait what just happened. he can be enormously charming and. enormously obnoxious at the same time so. i would have these very mixed emotions. because he gives no ground he he's. unwilling to. and i think this is a weakness he's. unwilling to.

um admit mistake. others make mistakes but he doesn't and. he certainly won't take on any of the. big criticisms that are. that are pushed i understand why i mean. when you've worked as hard for what he. has as he has you're defensive about it. but he is very defensive he's very. fragile about he does not like. criticisms at all. he he used to he hasn't done this in a. while but he used to call me up and. yell at me on the phone quite literally. when i would be quoted in the new york. times or somewhere. saying something that sounded critical. of him so for instance there was one. instance a number of years ago where.

a reporter came across some documents. where kissinger said negative things. about. jews in russia typical things that a. german jew would say about. east european jews and the new york. times asked me. is this accurate and i said yeah the. documents are accurate i've seen them. they're accurate he was so angry. about that so so there's the fragility. but there's also the enormous charm and. enormous intelligence um the real. challenge with him though is. he's very good at making his case he'll. convince you. and as a scholar as an observer.

you don't want to hear a lawyer's case. you want to actually interrogate the. evidence and get to the truth. and so that was a real challenge with. him so speaking of his. approach of real politics. if we just zoom out and look at human. history human civilization. what do you think works best in um. in the way we progress forward a. realistic approach. do whatever it takes control the centers. of power.

to play a game for the for the greater. interests. of the good guys quote unquote or. lead by a sort of idealism which is um. like truly act in the wa. in the best version of the ideas you. represent as opposed to kind of. uh present one view and then do whatever. it takes. behind the scenes obviously you need. some of both but i lean more to the. idealistic side and more so actually. believe it or not.

the as as i get into my 40s uh as i do. more historical work. why do i say that because i think and. this is one of my criticisms of. kissinger who i also have a lot of. respect for the realpolitik becomes. self-defeating. because you're constantly running to. keep power but you forget why. and you often then use power and i think. kissinger falls into this. in some of his worst moments not all of. his moments where the power is actually. being used to undermine the things you. care about. it's sort of the example of being a. parent and you're doing all these things. to you know take your kid to violin.

basketball all these things. and you realize you're actually killing. your kid and making your kid very. unhappy. and the whole reason you were doing it. was to improve the person's life yeah. and so you have to remember why it is. what what hans morgan thou calls this is. your purpose your purpose has to drive. you. now your purpose doesn't have to be airy. fairy idealism. so i believe deeply and democracy isn't. ideal. i don't think it's going to ever look. like athenian democracy. but that should drive our policy.

but we still have to be realistic and. recognize we're not going to build that. democracy in afghanistan tomorrow i mean. does it ultimately just boil down again. to the corrupting nature of power. that um nobody can. hold power for very long before you. start. acting in the in the interest of power. as opposed to. in the interest of your ideals it's. impossible. to be like somebody like kissinger who. is. essentially in power for many many.

decades. and and still remember what are the. initial ideals that you strove to um. to achieve yes i think that's exactly. right there there's a moment in the book. i quote. about him comes from one of our. interviews i asked him. what were the guiding ideals for your. policies. and he said uh i can't i'm not prepared. to share that. and i don't think it's because he. doesn't know what he thinks he was. trying to do.

he realizes his use of power departed. quite a lot. from so he it would sound if he. made them explicit he would sound. hypocritical correct. well on that let me ask about war. america often presents itself to its own. people. but just the leaders when they look in. the mirror is i get a sense. that we think of ourselves as the good. guys. in especially this begins sometimes.

to look hypocritical when you're waging. war. is what's a good um is there a good way. to know. when you've lost all sense of what it is. to be good um. another way to ask that is there in. military policy in conducting war. is there a good way to know what is a. just war. and uh what is a war crime i mean.

in some circles kissinger is accused of. contributing. you know being a war criminal yes i i. and and i argue in the book he's not a. war criminal but that doesn't mean that. um he didn't misuse military power. um i i think um. a just war war just war as michael walls. and others write about it a just war. is a war where both the purpose is just. and you are using the means to get to. that purpose. that uh kill as few people as.

necessary that doesn't mean they won't. be killing but as few as necessary. proportionality. right your your means should be. proportional to your ends. and um that's often lost sight of. because the drive to get to the end. often self-justifies means that go well. beyond that and so that's that's that's. how we get into torture in the war on. terror. right is there some kind of lesson for. the future. yes you can take away from that yes i.

think the the the first set of lessons. that i've shared as a historian with. with military decision makers is first. of all always remember why. you're there what your purpose is and. always ask yourself if the means you're. using. are actually proportional ask that. question just because you have these. means that you can use just because you. have these tools. doesn't mean they're the right tools to. use and here's the. question that follows from that and it's. a it's a hard question to ask because. the answer is one we often don't like to. hear. are the things i'm doing in war actually.

doing more harm or more good. to the reason i went into war we came to. a point in the war on terror. where what we were doing was actually. creating more terrorists. and that's when you have to stop. well some of that is in the data but. some of it there's a leap of faith. so from a parenting perspective let me. let me speak as a person with no kids in. the. single guy let me be the expert in the. room i'm parenting. no uh it does seem.

that it's a very difficult thing to do. to um. even though you know that your. kid was making a mistake to let them. make a mistake to give them the freedom. to make the mistakes sure. i don't know what to do but i mean. that's a very kind of. light-hearted way of phrasing the. following which is. when you look at some of the places in. the world like afghanistan which is. not doing well right to move out.

knowing that there's going to be a lot. of suffering. economic suffering injustices. terrorist organizations growing that. committing crimes on its own people and. potentially committing crimes. against allies violence against allies. violence against the united states. um how do you know what to do in that. case well. again it's an art not a science which is.

what makes it hard for you know an. engineer to. to think about this is what what makes. it endlessly fascinating for me yeah. and i think the real intellectual work. is at the level of the art. right and i think probably engineering. at its highest level becomes an art as. well. right so policy making you never you. never know. um but i will say this i'll say you have. to ask yourself and look in the mirror. and say. is all the effort i'm putting in. actually making this better. and in afghanistan you look at the 20. years and. two plus trillion dollars that the u.s.

has put in. and the fact that as you said correctly. it's not doing well right now after 20. years of that investment. you know i might like a company that i. invest in. but after 20 years of my throwing money. in that company. you know it's time to get out well in. some sense getting out now. is um that's kind of obvious i'm more. interested in how we figure out in the. future. how to get out earlier then i mean at. this point. we've stayed too long and it's obvious. the data the the investment.

nothing is working you know it's very. the very little data points to us. is staying there i'm more interested in. uh. you know being in a relation let me take. it back to a safer place again being in. a relationship and getting out of that. relationship while things are still good. but you have a sense that it's not going. to end up in a good place. that's that's the difficult thing you. have to ask yourself. whether it's a relationship or you're. talking about policy making in a place. like afghanistan. are the things i'm doing showing me.

evidence real evidence that they're. making things better. or making things worse that's a hard. question to be honest with you you have. to be very honest and in a policy making. context. we have to actually do the same thing we. do in a relationship context what do we. do in relationship context we ask other. friends who are observing. right we ask for other observers this is. actually just a scientific method. element actually right. that we can't the heisenberg principle i. i can't see it because i'm too close to. it i'm changing it. by my looking at it right i need others. to tell me in a policy making context.

this is why you need to hear from other. people not just the generals because. here's the thing about the generals. they're they generally are patriotic. hard-working people but they're too. close. they're not lying they're too close they. always think they can do better. yeah how do you think about the cold war. now from the beginning to end and maybe. also with an eye towards the current. potential cyber conflict cyber war with.

china and with russia. if we look sort of other kind of cold. wars potentially emerging in the 21st. century. when you look back at the cold war of. the 20th century. how do you see it and what lessons do we. draw from it. it's a wonderful question because i. teach this to undergraduates and it's. really. interesting to see how undergraduates. now. almost all of whom were born after 9 11. yeah. uh so the cold war is ancient history to. them in fact.

yeah the cold war to them is as far. removed. as you know the 1950s were to me i mean. that's. the you know that's it's it's. unbelievable it's almost like. world war ii for my generation and cold. war and cold war for them it's so far. removed the collapse of the soviet union. doesn't mean anything to them. um so uh so how do you how do you. describe the cold war to them how do you. describe the soviet union to them. first of all i have to explain to them. why people were so fearful of communism.

anti-communism is very hard for them to. understand. um the fact that in the 1950s americans. believed. that communists were going to infiltrate. our society and many other societies and. that after. fidel castro comes to power in 1959 that. we're going to see communist regimes all. across latin america. that fear of communism married to. nuclear power. and then even the fear that maybe. economically they would outpace us. because they would create this sort of. army of khrushchevian you know creep.

builders of things and you know what as. khrushchev said right say we're going to. catch britain in five years and then the. united states after that. right so to to explain that sense of. fear to them that they don't. have of those others that's really. uh important the cold war was. fundamentally uh. about the united states defending a. capitalist world order against a. serious challenger from communism an. alternative way. of organizing everything private. property economic. activity enterprise life everything.

organized in a totally different way it. was a struggle between two systems. so your senses and started to interrupt. but your sense is. the the conflict of the cold war was. between two ideologies. and not just two big countries with. nuclear weapons. i think it was about two different ways. of life or two different um. promoted ways of life the soviet union. never actually. lived communism yes but i i think my. reading of stalin is he really tried to. go there that and khrushchev.

really believed gorbachev thought he was. going to reform the soviet union so you. would go back to a kind of bukhar and. lenin. communism right so um i do think that. mattered i do think that mattered. enormously and from the united states. point of view. um the view was that communism and. fascism. were these totalitarian threats to. liberal democracy and capitalism which. went hand in hand. so i do think that's what the struggle. was about and in a certain way liberal. capitalism. proved to be the more enduring system in. the united states played a key role.

in that that that's the reality of the. cold war. but i think it means different things. now to my students. and others they focus uh. very much on the expansion of american. power. and the challenges of managing. they're looking at it from the. perspective of not. will we survive but did we waste our. resources. on some elements of it it doesn't mean. they were against what america. did but there is a question of the. resources that went into the cold war.

and the opportunity costs. and you see this when you look at the. sort of health care systems that other. countries build and you compare them to. the united states. race issues also um so they they look at. the costs which i think. often happens after a project is done. you look back at that. second i think um they're also more. inclined. to see the world as less bipolar. to see uh the role of china as more. complicated. post colonial or anti-colonial movements. uh. independent states in africa and latin.

america that gets more attention. so one of the criticisms now. is because you forget the the lessons of. 20th century history. and the atrocities committed under. communism. that you may be a little bit more. willing to. accept some of those ideologies into our. the united states society. that this kind of um that forgetting. that capitalistic forces.

are part of the reason why. we have what we have today there's a. fear. amongst some now that we would. have we would allow basically communism. to take hold in america i mean. jordan and others speak to this kind of. idea i tend to. not be so fearful of it i think it's on. the surface. it's not deep within i do see the world. as. very complicated as a as there needing.

to be a role of. having support for each other on certain. political levels economic levels and. then. also supporting entrepreneurs it's like. um that the kind of enforcing of. outcomes that is fundamental to the. communist system. is not something we're actually close to. and some of that is just fear-mongering. for. for uh for likes on twitter kind of. thing. if i could come in on that because i. agree with you 100 i've spent a lot of. time. writing and looking at this and talking.

to people about this um. there's no communism in the united. states there never has been and there. certainly isn't now and. and i'll say this both from an academic. point of view but also from just. spending a lot of time observing young. people in the united states. even those on the farthest left take. whoever you think is the farthest left. they don't even understand what. communism is they're not communist in. any sense. americans are raised in a vernacular and. environment of private property. ownership. and as you know better than anyone if. you believe in private property you. don't believe in communism so. the what what the sort of bernie sanders.

kind of. socialist elements that's very different. right. and i would say some of that not all of. that some of that does harken back. to actually what won in the cold war. there were many social democratic. elements of what the united states did. that led to our winning the cold war. for example the new deal uh. was investing government money in. propping up business. in propping up labor unions and. during the cold war we spent more money.

than we had ever spent in our history. on infrastructure on schools uh on. providing social support. social security our national pension. system being one of them. so you could argue actually that social. democracy. is very compatible with capitalism and i. think that's the debate we're having. today how much social democracy i'd also. say that the capitalism we've. experienced the last. 20 years is different from the. capitalism of the cold war uh. during the cold war there was the. presumption in the united states.

that you had to. pay taxes to support our cold war. activities. that it was okay to make money but the. more money you made the more taxes you. had to pay. um we had the highest marginal tax rates. in our history during the cold war. now the aversion to taxes and of course. no one ever likes paying taxes but the. notion that we can do things on deficit. spending that's. a post-cold war phenomenon that's not a. cold war phenomenon so.

so much of the capitalism that we're. talking about today is not the. capitalism of the cold war and maybe. again we can learn that and see that see. how we can. reform capitalism today and and and get. rid of this. false worry about communism in the. united states yeah you know. you make me actually realize something. important what we have to remember. is the words we use on the surface about. different policies what you think is. right and wrong. is actually different than the core. thing. that like is in your blood the core.

ideas that. are there of i i do see. the united states as this there there's. this fire that burns. of individual freedoms of. uh of of of property rights. these these basic foundational ideas. that everybody just kind of takes for. granted. and i think if you hold on to them. if you're like raised in them talking. about. ideas of social security of universal.

basic income of of of reallocation of. resources. is a fundamentally different kind of. discussion than you had in the soviet. union. i think the value of the individual is. so core to the american system. that you basically cannot possibly do. the kind of. atrocities that you saw in the in the. in the soviet union but of course you. never know the slippery slope. has a way of changing uh changing things.

but i do believe the things you're born. with. it's just so core to this country it's. it's part of the. i don't know what your thoughts are. where we are in texas i'm. not necessarily i don't necessarily want. to have a gun control type of. conversation but. the reason i really like guns. it doesn't make any sense but. philosophically it's. it's such a declaration of individual. rights. that's so different than the.

conversations i hear with my russian. family my russian friends. that the gun is is very possible that. having guns is bad for society in the. sense that like it'll lead to more. violence. but there's something about this. discussion. um it that. like that proclaims the value. of my freedom as an individual i'm not. being eloquent in it but there's very. few. debates where whenever people are saying.

should. you have what level of gun control all. those kinds of things. what i hear is it's a fight for. how much freedom even if it's stupid. freedom. should the individual have i think. that's i think that's what that's what's. articulated quite often i i think uh. combining your two points which are. great points i think. there is something about american. individualism which is deeply ingrained. uh in our culture in our society and it. means that. the kinds of bad things that happen are. different usually not as bad but.

but our individualism often covers up. for. um vigilante activity and individual. violence toward people that you wouldn't. have in a more collective culture. um so in the soviet union it was at a. much worse scale and it was done by. by government organizations in the. united states it's. you know individuals the history of. lynching in our country for example. sometimes it's individual police. officers sometimes it's others. again the vast majority police officers. are good people don't do harm to people. but there are. these examples and they they're able to.

fester. in our society because of our. individualism now gun ownership. uh is about personal freedom i think for. a lot of people. and um there's no doubt that in our. history. included in the second amendment which. can be interpreted in different ways. is the presumption that people should. have the right to defend themselves. which is what i think you're getting at. here. that you should not be completely. dependent for your defense. on an entity that might not be there for. you you should be able to defend. yourself and guns symbolize that um.

i think that's a fair point but i think. it's also a fair point to say. that as with everything uh defining what. self-defense is is really important. so does self-defense mean i can have a. bazooka does it mean i can have weapons. that are designed. for a military battlefield to mass kill. people that seems to me to be very. different. from saying i should have a handgun or. some small arm. to defend myself that distinction alone. would make a huge difference most of the. uh mass shootings at least which are a.

proportion a smaller proportion of the. larger gun deaths in the united states. which are larger than any other society. but at least the mass shootings. are usually perpetrated by people who. have not self-defense weapons. but mass killing mass killing weapons. and i think i think there's an important. distinction there the constitution talks. about a right to bear arms for a. well-regulated militia when the framers. talked about arms. that did not mean the ability to kill as. many people as you want to kill. it meant the ability to defend yourself. so let's have that conversation i think. it would be useful as a society. stop talking about guns or no guns what.

is it that we as citizens need. to feel we can defend ourselves yes yeah. i mean guns. have this complicated issue that it can. cause harm to others. i tend to see sort of maybe indra like. legalization of drugs. i tend to believe that we should have. the freedom to do stupid things. yeah as long as we're not harming lots. of other people yes. and then guns of course have the. property that they can be used. it's not just you know a bazooka i would. argue is pretty stupid.

to own for your own self-defense but it. has the very. negative side effect of being. potentially used to harm other people. and you have to you have to consider. that kind of stuff by the way as a side. note to the listeners. uh there's been a bunch of people saying. that uh. lex is way too libertarian for my taste. no i actually am just struggling with. ideas and sometimes put on different. hats in these conversations i. i um think through different ideas. whether they're left right or.

libertarian. that's true for gun control that's true. for immigration it's true for all of. that i think we should. we should have discussions in the space. of ideas. versus in the space of bins we put each. other in labels and we'll put each other. 300. and also change our minds all the time. try out say say stupid stuff with the. best of intention. trying our best to think through it and. then. after saying it think about it for a few. days and then change your mind.

and grow in this way let me ask a. ridiculous question. when you zoom out when uh human. civilization has destroyed itself and. alien graduate students are studying it. uh like three four five centuries from. now what do you think will remember. about. this period period in history the 20th. century the 21st century. this this time we had a couple wars. we had a charismatic black president in.

the united states. with um a couple pandemics. what do you think will actually stand. the the. stand out in history no doubt the. uh rapid technological innovation. of the last 20 to 30 years uh how we. created a whole. virtual universe we didn't have before. and of course that's going to go in. directions you and i can't imagine 50. years from now. that this will be seen as that origin. moment that when we went from.

playing below the rim to playing above. the rim right to being. all in person to having a whole virtual. world and in a strange way the pandemic. was a provocation to move even further. in that direction and we're never going. back. right we're we're going to restore some. of the things we were doing before the. pandemic but we're never going to go. back to that world we were in before. where every meeting you had to fly. to that place to be in the room with the. people um so this whole virtual world. and the virtual personas. and avatars and all of that um i think.

that's that's going to be. a big part of how people remember our. time also the sort of biotechnology. element of it which. which the vaccines are part of um it's. amazing how quickly this is the great. triumph how quickly. we've produced and distributed these. vaccines and of course their problems. with who's taking them but. but the reality is i mean this is light. speed. compared to what it would have been like. not just in 1918 in 1980. yeah one of the and sorry if i'm. interrupting but one of the. disappointing things about this.

particular time. is because vaccines like a lot of things. got. politicized used as little pawns in the. game of politics. that we don't get the chance to step. back fully at least. and celebrate the the brilliance of the. human species that's right. this is yes there are scientists who use. their authority. improperly that have an ego. that when they're.

within institutions are dishonest with. the public. because they don't trust the. intelligence of the public they are not. authentic and transparent. all the same things you could say about. humans in any positions of power. anywhere okay that doesn't mean science. isn't incredible. and um the vaccines i mean i don't i. don't often talk about it. because it's so political and it it it's. heartbreaking. to it's heartbreaking how all the good.

stuff is getting politicized yeah that's. right and it shouldn't be. it'll seem less political um in the long. arc of history. it'll see it'll it'll be seen as an. outstanding. accomplishment and as a you know a step. toward whatever maybe they're doing. vaccines or something that replaces the. vaccine in 10 seconds you know at that. point right yeah it'll be seen as a step. those will be some of the positives. i think one of the negatives they will. point to will be um. our inability at least at this moment to. manage our environment better how we're.

destroying our living space. and not doing enough even though we have. the capabilities to do more to preserve. or at least. allow a sustainable living space i'm. confident because i'm an optimist. that we will get through this and we. will be better at sustaining our. environment in future decades. and so in terms of environmental policy. they'll see this. moment as a dark age or the beginnings. of a better age maybe as a renaissance. or maybe uh as a as the last time. most people lived on earth when a couple.

centuries afterwards were all dissipated. throughout the. the solar system in the galaxy very. possible if the local resident. hometown resident mr elon musk has. anything to do with it. i i do i do tend to think you're. absolutely right with all this political. bickering. we shouldn't forget that what this age. will be remembered by is. the is the incredible levels of. innovation yes i do. i do think the biotech stuff worries me.

more than anything. because it feels like there's a lot of. weapons that could be yet to be. developed. in that space but i tend to believe that. i'm excited about by two avenues one is. artificial intelligence. the kind of um the kind of systems we'll. create in this digital space that you. mentioned we're moving to. and then the other of course this could. be the product of the cold war but i'm. super excited by space exploration sure. there's a magic tour to humans being sp.

and we're getting back to it i mean we. we were. enthralled with it in the 50s and 60s. when it was a cold war competition and. then after the 70s we sort of gave up on. it. and thanks to elon musk and others we're. coming back to this issue and and. i think there's so much to be gained. from the power of exploration. is there books or movies in your life. long ago or recently that had a big. impact on you. yes something you were yes um. you know my favorite novel i always tell. people this i love reading novels i'm a. historian.

uh and i think the historian and the. novelist are actually. and the technology innovator are all. actually one and the same we're all. storytellers storytellers and we're all. in the imagination space. and um i'm trying to imagine the world. of the past to inform us in the present. for the future. so one of my favorite novels that i read. actually when i was in graduate school. is thomas mons button brooks and. it's the story of a family in lubeck in. northern germany. living through the 19th century and the. rise and fall of families cycles of life.

many things we've talked about in the. last couple hours. cycles of life um challenges of uh. adjusting to the world around you and. it's just a very moving reflection. on the limits of human agency and how we. we all have to. understand the circumstances we're in. and adjust to them. and there's triumph and tragedy in that. it's a wonderful novel it used to be a. kind of canonical work it's sort of. fallen out now. it's a big big novel but uh i'm very. moved by that. i'm very moved by tolstoy's war and.

peace i assign that every year to my. students that's a big big book. but what tolstoy challenges is he. challenges the notion that a napoleon. can rule the world. and we're all little napoleons right. we're all sort of thinking that we're. going to do that. and he reminds us how much is. contingency circumstance that doesn't. mean we don't have. some control you've uh spoke to me a. little bit of russian. where does that come from so your your. appreciation of tolstoy but also your. ability to speak a bit of russian where. is that. where is that from so uh i speak in.

addition to english i speak. reasonably well depending on how much. vodka i've had. russian nice french and german um i. learned those. uh for uh research purposes i learned. french actually when i was in high. school. russian when i was in college german. when i was in graduate school. now i do have family on my mother's side. that's of russian jewish extraction. um but they were yiddish speakers by the. time you know i met them by the time. they had gone through germany and come. to the united states or really gone. through poland and come the united. states they were yiddish speakers so.

there's no one really in my family who. speaks russian. but i do feel a connection there at. least a long range. personal connection is there something. to be said about the language. and your ability to imagine history. sort of when you study these different. countries. your ability to imagine what it was like. to be. um a part of that culture part of that. time. yes language is crucial to understanding. a culture and. even if you learn the language as i have.

learning russian and german and french. it's still not the same as also being a. native speaker either as you know. um but i think language tells you a lot. about mannerism. about assumptions uh the very fact that. english doesn't have a formal you. but russian has a formally right versus. right. german has a formal you z versus d right. so the fact that english doesn't have a. formal you. tells you something uh about americans. right that's just one example.

uh the fact that um you know that. germans have such a wider vocabulary. for certain scientific concepts than we. have in english tells you something. about the culture right language. is an artifact of the culture the. culture makes the language. it's fascinating to explore i mean even. just exactly what you just said. which is there's a fascinating. transition. so i guess in english we just have you. yeah.

there's a there's a fascinating. transition that persists to this day. is is of formalism and politeness. where it's an initial kind of dance of. interaction that's. uh different methods. of signaling respect i guess we don't. then language provides that and in the. united in the english language. there's fewer tools to show that kind of. respect which has. potentially positive or negative effects. and it flattens the society where like a.

teenager could talk to an older person. and show like uh like a difference. i mean but at the same time i mean it. creates a certain kind of dynamic a. certain kind of society. and it's funny to think of just like. those few words can have any. like a ripple effect through the whole. culture and we don't have a history in. the united states of. of aristocracy yeah the these uh. elements of language reflect aristocracy. the the the surf. would never refer to the master even if. the master is younger.

it's always void right of it's always. right i mean and so. it's um yeah so it tells you something. about the history that's why to your. question which was a great question it's. so crucial. to try to penetrate the language i'll. also say something else. and this is a problem for many americans. who haven't learned a foreign language. we're very bad at teaching foreign. languages. if you've never taught yourself a. foreign language. you have closed yourself off to certain. kinds of empathy. because you have basically trained your. brain to only look at the world one way. the very act of learning another.

language i think tells your brain. that words and concepts don't translate. one to one. this is the first thing you realize. right we can say you know these two. words mean the same thing from two. languages they never mean exactly. yeah it's the same thing right dos. fedonia is really not goodbye. yes right and there's something you know. right now there's people talking about. idea of lived experience. one of the ways to force yourself into. this idea. of liv's experience is by learning. another language is to understand that.

you can perceive the world in a totally. different way even even though you're. perceiving the same thing. and of course the way to first learn. russian for those. looking for tutorial lessons for me is. just like as you said. you start by drinking lots of vodka yes. of course it's very difficult. to do otherwise is there advice you have. for young people. about career about life uh. in making their way in the world yes. the two things i i believe that i say to.

a lot of talented young people first. um i i don't think you can predict. what is going to be well renumerated 20. years from now. don't pick a profession because you. think even though your parents might. tell you or. do this and you'll make money you know. this is the scene in the graduate uh. where. a guy tells dustin hoffman going to. plastics money and plastics. we don't know so many of my students now. have parents who are telling them. uh bright students you know go to the. business school that's. that's what's going to set you up to. make money if you're passionate about. business yes.

but don't begin by thinking you know. what's going to be hot 20 years from now. you don't know what's going to be hot. from 20 years ago about 20 years from. now. what should you do this is advice number. one find what you're passionate about. because if you're passionate about it. you will do good work in that area or if. you're talented. and usually passion and talent overlap. and you'll find a way to get people to. pay you for it. i mean you do it really well people will. want to pay that that's where capitalism. works. people will find it valuable right. whether it's violin playing. right or engineering or poetry you will.

find you might not become a. billionaire that involves other things. but you'll find a way to get people to. pay you for it. and then the second thing is um it's. really important. uh at the very beginning of your career. even before you're in. your job right to start building your. networks. but networks are not just people you're. on. facebook with or twitter with i mean. that's fine uh. it's actually forming relationships and. some of that can be mediated in the. digital world but i mean real. relationships.

i like podcasts because i think they. actually open up that space i know a lot. of people can listen to a podcast. and find someone else who's listened to. that podcast and have a conversation. about a topic it opens up that space. build those relationships not with. people who you think will be powerful. but people you think. are interesting because they'll do. interesting things. and every successful person i know. at some level had a key moment where. they got where they are. because of someone they knew for some. other reason yeah who had that.

connection. so use and spread your networks and make. them as diverse as possible find people. who. are of a different party have different. interests but are interesting to you. that's brilliant advice and some of the. on the on the passion side. i do find that um as somebody who has a. lot of passions. i i find the the second part to that. is commit committing yes that's true. which sucks. because life is finite and when you.

commit. you say well i'm never going to be good. like when you choose one of your two. passions one of the two things you're. interested in. you're basically saying i'm i'm letting. go i'm saying. this to that's true that's true which is. actually what does it down your means. nice five letting go that's exactly. right yeah i think that's exactly right. i think that's i think you do have to. make choices you have to set priorities. i often laugh at students who tell me. they want to have like three majors.

if you have three majors you have no. major right i mean so i do think you. have to make choices i also think. um it's important that whatever you do. even if it's a small thing you do you. always do the best you can you always do. excellent work. my kids are tired of hearing me say this. at home but i believe everything you do. should be about excellence the best you. can do. if i'm going to wash the dishes i'm. going to be the best person washing the. dishes yeah. right if i'm going to write a book. review i'm going to make the best. possible. book review i can why because you.

develop a culture. among about yourself which is about. excellence yeah i was. i was telling you offline about all the. kind of stuff google fiber and cable. installation all that stuff. i've been always a believer washing. dishes. people don't often believe me when i say. this i don't care what i do. i i'm i am with david foster wallace i'm. unbearable. there's so much joy for me i think for. everyone but okay let me just speak for. me. to be discovered in getting really good.

at anything in fact getting good at. stuff that most people believe. is boring or menial labor or. uh you know impossible to be interesting. that's even more joyful to find the joy. within that in the excellent. it's the giro dreams of sushi making the. same freaking. sushi over and over and becoming a. master that that's that can be truly. joyful there's a sense of pride. and on the pragmatic level you never. know when.

someone will spot that and uh. intelligent. people who perform at the level of high. excellence look for others. yeah and it radiates some kind of signal. it's weird it wears what you're. it's weird what you're attracting. yourself when you just focus on mastery. and pursuing excellence in something. like. this is the cool thing uh about it. that's the joy i've. really truly experienced i didn't have. to do much work it's just cool people. kind of. i find myself in groups of cool people. like really people who are excited about.

life who are passionate about life. there's a fire in their eyes that's uh. you know at the end of the day just. makes. life fun you know something and then. also money-wise. at least in this society we're fortunate. to where if you do that kind of thing. money will find a way like i have the. great i say this that don't care about. money. you know i have to think about what that. means because some people criticize that. idea as like yeah. that must be nice to say that uh because. i. have for much many periods of my life.

had very little money. but i think we live in a society where. not caring about money but just focusing. on your passions. if you're truly pursuing excellence. whatever that is money will find you. that's i guess the ideal of the. capitalist system. and i think that the entrepreneurs i've. studied and had the chance to get to. know. and i'm sure you'd agree with this they. they do what they do because they're. passionate about the product. yeah they're not just in it to make. money in fact that's when they get into. trouble. yeah just trying to make money exactly.

you said your grandmother emily had a. big impact on your life. she lived to 102. what are some lessons she taught you. emily who was the the child of. immigrants from from. russia and poland who never went to. college. her proudest day i think was when when i. went to college. um she. she treated everyone with respect and. tried to get to know everyone she knew. every bus driver.

in the town she'd remember their. birthdays. and one of the things she taught me is. no matter how high you fly. the lowest person close to the ground. matters to you. and uh you treat them the same way you. treat the. billionaire at the top of the podium and. she she did that she didn't just say. that. some people say then don't do it she she. really did that and i always. remember that it comes up in my mind at. least once a week because. we're all busy doing a lot of things and.

you either see or you even feel in. yourself. the desire to just for the reasons of. speed. to be short or not polite with someone. who can't do anything to harm you right. now. and i remember uh her saying to me no. you you don't. you you you treat everyone with respect. you treat you know the person you're on. the phone with right customer service. you treat that person if you're talking. to jeff bezos so you're talking to. elon musk right uh and and i think. making that a culture of who you are is.

so important and people notice that. that's the other thing. and they notice when it's authentic. everyone's nice to the person at the. bottom of the. totem pole when you want to get a head. in the line for your driver's license. yeah but are you nice to them when you. don't need that they notice that. and even when nobody's watching that has. a weird effect on you. that's going to uh have a ripple effect. and people know that's the cool thing. about the internet. i've come to believe that people see. authenticity they see. when you're full of shit when you're not. that's right the other thing that that. emily taught me and i think we've all.

had relatives who have taught us this. right that you could. be very uneducated she was very. uneducated she you know she had a high. school diploma. but i think she was working in you know. in a delicatessen in new york you know. while she was in high school or maybe it. was. gimbals or something so she didn't take. high school very seriously she wasn't. very well educated. she was very smart and we can fall into. a world. where i'm a big believer in higher. education and getting a phd and things. of that sort. but where we think those are the only. smart people. sometimes those are the people because.

of their accomplishments because their. egos are the ones. who are least educated. in the way of the world yeah least. curious. and now ultimately wisdom comes from. curiosity. and sometimes getting a phd can get away. uh it can get. in the way of curiosity as opposed to. empower curiosity. let me ask uh from a historical. perspective. you've studied some of human history so.

maybe you have an insight about what's. the meaning of life. why do you ever ask when you look at. history the why. yeah i do all the time and i don't have. i don't have a i don't have an answer. it's it's the mystery that we can't uh. answer i i do think um what it means is. what we make of. it there's no universal. every every period i've studied and i've. studied a little bit of a lot of periods. and a lot of a few periods. every period people struggle with this. and there's no they don't come to.

wiser people than us don't come to a. firm answer. except it's what you make of it meaning. is what you make of it so. think about what what you want to care. about and make that. the meaning in your life um i wonder how. that changes throughout human history. whether there's a constant like that's i. often. think especially when you study. evolutionary biology and you just. see our origins from life and as it. evolves. it's like it makes you wonder if.

it feels like there's a thread that. connects all of it. that we're headed somewhere. we're trying to actualize some greater. purpose you know like there there seems. to be a direction to this thing. and we're all kind of stumbling in the. dark trying to figure it out. but it feels like we eventually will. find an answer. i hope so yeah maybe i mean i do think.

we all. um we all want. our families to do better we are we we. are. familiar and family doesn't just mean. biological family you can have all kinds. of ways you define family and community. and i think i think we are moving slowly. and. in a very messy way toward a larger. world community to include all of. biological life. and eventually uh artificial life. as well and so that this.

to uh to expand the lesson to the advice. that uh your grandmother taught you is i. think we should treat. robots and ai systems uh good. as well even if they're currently not. very intelligent because. one day they might be right right i. think that's exactly right and and we. should think through. exactly exactly as a humanist how i. would approach that issue. we need to think through the kinds of. behavior patterns we want to establish. with these new forms of life artificial.

life. um for ourselves also to your point so. we behave the right way so we don't. misuse this. started talking about abraham lincoln. ended talking about robots. i think this is the perfect conversation. jeremy this was a huge honor. i love austin i love ut austin. and i love the fact that you would agree. to waste all your valuable time with me. today thank you so much for talking. today. i can't imagine a better way to spend a. friday afternoon this was so much fun.

and i'm such a fan of your podcast and. delighted to be a part of it. thank you thanks for listening to this. conversation with jeremy suri. and thank you to element monk pack. belcampo. four sigmatic and asleep check them out. in the description to support this. podcast. and now let me leave you with some words. from franklin d. roosevelt fdr democracy cannot succeed. unless those who express their choice. are prepared. to choose wisely the real safeguard of.

democracy therefore. is education thank you for listening and. hope to see you. next time.