Glenn Loury: Race, Racism, Identity Politics, and Cancel Culture | Lex Fridman Podcast #285

i hate. affirmative action i don't just disagree. with it i don't just think it's. against the 14th amendment i hate it. the hatred comes from an understanding. that it is a band-aid that it is a. substitute for the actual development. over the capacities of our people to. compete they want to tell african. americans uh pat us on the head. uh we're gonna have a separate program. for you we're gonna give you a side door. that you can come into that doesn't make. us any smarter. it doesn't make us any more creative.

and it doesn't make us any more fit. for the actual competition that's. unfolding before us. the following is a conversation with. glenn lowery professor of economics and. social sciences at brown university he. is one of the great minds and. communicators of our time writing and. speaking about race and inequality. i highly encourage you to listen to his. show on youtube and stack simply called. the glen show.

this is the lex friedman podcast to. support it please check out our sponsors. in the description and now dear friends. here's glenn. lowry. martin luther king juniors i have a. dream speech i think is the greatest. speech in american history if i may i'd. like to read a few words of it sure and. uh ask you a question about this dream. i have a dream. that one day this nation will rise up. and live out the true meaning of its. creed. we hold these truths to be self-evident.

that all men are created equal. i have a dream. that one day on the red hills of georgia. the sons of former slaves and the sons. of former slave owners will be able to. sit down together at the table of. brotherhood. i have a dream that one day even the. state of mississippi. a state sweltering with the heat of. injustice sweltering with the heat of. oppression. will be transformed into an oasis of. freedom and justice.

i have a dream. that my four little children will one. day live in a nation where they will not. be judged by the color of their skin. but by the content of their character. i have a dream today. first of all damn. i mentioned to you offline i immigrated. to. to america and this is why i love this. country this is one of the great species. that represents what this country is. about yeah so. what is this ideal of equality. uh that we should strive for as a nation.

this that all men are created equal what. does that mean to you this equality. well. if we put this in historical context. king is speaking in. 1963 when he gives that speech it's. exactly 100 years after. abraham lincoln signs the. emancipation proclamation declaring. the enslaved people. to be free.

they're not yet citizens in 1863. but the end of slavery is has become the. position of the federal government when. lincoln issues that emancipation. proclamation. so. putting it in context. enslaved people four million or so. african descended enslaved people. how do they become.

citizens how do they become. in this uh. status of. subjugation and domination and stigma. and exclusion. how do they become citizens it seems to. me that that's the. that's this the heart of it. the the equality that king. is talking about is an equality of. status as members of the nation. as free and equal citizens within the.

republic. now. i think it's really important to. understand that. slavery. was not merely a legal. order but it was also. a social. system that had the symbolism. attached to it. they had a big journey to make from. their subjugated status as serfs as. landless people as uneducated unfit for.

citizenship really in the minds of many. so i think that's what in. 1963. 100 years later that king is appealing. to this idea that. when thomas jefferson in the declaration. of independence writes these words all. men are created equal and endowed by. their creator with. certain inalienable rights.

he didn't thomas jefferson a slave owner. didn't have in mind when he wrote those. words. the people who were slaves. but by the time you get to 1963. king is. invoking. this idea all. men and of course he means all persons. he doesn't only mean men. he means men and women are created equal. he wants this idea to be embraced by the.

country in reference to the descendants. of the african slaves. that's his dream that's his idea. the legacy of slavery would be erased. uh that that the. uh position of african-americans would. be equalized within the. political community which is the united. states of america. that's my sense of it in any case so on. a very basic level. the worth of a human being is equal it's. just literally the worth.

of a human being so i mentioned to you. offline that. i came from the soviet union. my grandfather. fought in world war ii. and. for hitler. the worth of a slavic person. as they were captured. there's different numbers but it's in. the hundreds to one german. in terms of. the value of the person. to the great germany so he wanted.

germany to expand and conquer a large. part of the world and within that future. world that third reich. the worth of a russian or slavic person. is. one hundredth or one thousands of a. german person of a pure german person so. that has to do with. not some kind of public policy or. politics or all that kind of stuff it. has to do with the basic worth of a. human being and that's what dr king is. speaking to. that.

all people. on some kind of deep level are. worth the same. if you're somehow weighing uh the value. of a person. we're equal and that's basic fundamental. worth. yeah i think that's correct i think. that's very well said. i don't know that he had in mind the. position of slavic people in central. europe. in the middle of the 20th century in the. first part of the 20th century king i. don't know that he had that in mind he. might well have done.

but. certainly that's the idea so you don't. think he was really thinking about. this particular civil rights struggle. and the particular. struggle of. against the backdrop of the history of. slavery in america and thinking about. african americans he wasn't thinking. about the basic. he wasn't speaking to the basic worth of. all human beings no i don't mean to say. that. the speech. in washington.

the dream. in in 1963 at that march. was. within the context of the united states. and he was it was within the context of. the civil rights movement there was a. movement that was going on. he was. a actor in a political drama that was. american. that had to do with the fight. over. equal rights. for voting. for housing. for employment.

for uh citizenship. of blacks in america but king. was informed i think by a much broader. christian. ethic. of uh the equality of all persons i mean. he he gets killed in 1968. the five years after that. speech in washington he spends. uh developing his. world view. and. the things that he had to say for.

example about the war in southeast asia. that was going on at that time. made appeals to universal. principles of equality he was a pacifist. to some degree he was against war. he was. a socialist to some degree he might not. have worn that label. publicly but he believed in a decent. society where the poor would not go. untended where health care would be. available to people who needed it and.

this kind of thing. a humanitarian who saw that the value of. a life was not dependent upon the color. of the skin. upon the native. mother tongue that might be spoken. upon whether male or female. all persons are created equal this this. is very much. the ethic. of martin luther king on my. understanding broadly speaking. what do you learn about human nature by.

looking at. the history of slavery in america. oh my so what does that tell you about. people. well. i think of two things right off the top. of my head. one is about the capacity. of people. for. looking the other way in the face of. uh unethical and.

you know morally. profoundly problematic. practice. so i mean slavery was controversial it. was controversial. going all the way back to the founding. of the united states of america the. country was founded on a compromise. where. half of the country. uh thought that slavery was uh was. abhorrent and would not have had it uh. countenanced. in the constitution the other half of. the country were.

steeped in the dependence on the labor. of these african captives. and their descendants the economy. depended upon it they owned them as. property that was their wealth their. wealth was invested to some degree in. the value of these. human beings. and in order for the united states to. come together as a confederation of the. several colonies. there had to be a compromise made and it. was made. where slavery was allowed to persist.

and. the people who were against it or who. thought it. morally problematic. were able to countenance. the practice in the southern. states where slavery flourished and that. went on for 75 years after the founding. of the country until the crisis of. the late 1850s that led to the civil war. and ultimately to the emancipation so. one thing. i think about human nature.

from the fact of slavery is that. the ability of. people to live with. terrible. morally. questionable practices and have that as. a part of their institutions. it took a a movement of. a massive movement of abolitionists. uh struggling against slavery. for the better part of a century. before. um before that that practice could be. eradicated. but the other thing about human nature.

uh that i see. is the ability of people to sustain. their humanity under the most. awful oppressive conditions. um. the enslaved persons the slaves. um and their children i mean they were. chatted they were bought and sold like. horses or or cattle. and yet. they were not their humanity was not.

destroyed by that and. they were able to. sustain their dignity. to some degree in such a manner that. once emancipation finally did arrive the. freedmen and women the the persons who. had been. enslaved and who were set free were able. to. over the. following. decades. uh build a foundation. for the.

development of african americans within. the context of american society. that eventually culminated in the civil. rights movement of the middle of the. 20th century. and. has led us into the present day. so. you know. human nature can countenance awful evil. but human nature can also survive in the. face of terrible evil. that's what i take from. slavery that's.

that flame can burn even when uh. this the world around it tries to put it. out this there's still a little flame of. human consciousness of spirit of culture. of whatever the hell that is that makes. humans flourish and makes humans. beautiful that lives on. that's what everyone said yeah i think. you you put it very well there's got to. be some. poetic way of expressing that. leave it to the poets yeah.

what about the people that look the. other way how many people do you think. just regular people. knew that something is this is wrong. or did do people. through generations convince themselves. most people most regular people convince. themselves that there's nothing wrong. all right. yeah. i asked this question because i wonder. what we're looking the other way on. today. also. because.

you mean you have to kind of if we're. you have to ask yourself these difficult. questions of. assuming we're the same people we were. yeah back then. then we're we can be flawed in that same. kind of way we can look the other the. other way just as others have. in history. yeah. you spoke of the european uh context and. of the nazis and. certainly. a lot of people had to be looking the. other way.

when the massive crimes that were. committed by that regime were being. undertaken i mean the railroad cars full. of human. beings being taken off to be slaughtered. or to be worked to death in. labor camps or to be gassed uh etc a lot. of people had to know about what was. going on and. look the other way. or enthusiastically supported the. the persecution of the jews and the. gypsies and.

so on. and i don't know i wasn't you know i. wasn't around in 1840. my sense of the matter is that like of. many practices that are unjust most. people thought. uh that's just the way it is i mean. that's the world that they inherited. they they they were not moralists they. were not revolutionaries. they they just wanted to go along. uh some people might have been troubled. by it but thought there's nothing that. can be done some people might have. thought well. they're. these black africans they're not really.

like us and you know they are lucky to. be here if they were in africa they'd be. worse off still. some people might have thought that. some people might have been disturbed. but not been able to see what it is that. they could do about it. they they might have thought oh this is. you know this is disgusting this is. uh you know not something i wouldn't. want to have anything to do with but. uh not knowing whether there's any.

practical way of opposing it that that's. why. you need a movement you need. for the people who are. troubled by the practice to know that. there are others like themselves equally. troubled and. as they gather together. collectively they can exert their. their influence i mean debates about the. the wrongness of slavery as i say go all. the way back to the founding of the. country. uh there were abolitionists and there.

were people who were who opposed the. compromise that led to the uh framing. documents and uh institutions that. created the united states of america. opposed the countenancing of. slavery in that in that situation. um but it took a while before that could. come to uh come to a head. and. produce the crisis which ultimately led. to the. eradication of slavery i would note that.

slavery is not unique to the united. states it's not unique to the western. hemisphere. that enslavement of people the. trafficking in human. channel uh is something that one sees in. on on a global basis one sees it going. all the way back to uh antiquity. so. we might ask how is it that people. finally came. to turn their backs and eradicate the. practice that that might be the thing.

worth. really trying to understand because the. practice itself is. you know there's a wonderful book. by the sociologist orlando patterson. called slavery and social death. that was published in 1982. which is a comprehensive history and. social analysis of the institution of. slavery. over. 2500 years. going back to the classical greek and.

roman civilizations finding slavery in. africa amongst africans finding slavery. in the middle east finding slavery in. the far east finding slavery in south. asia. the enslavement of people. the practice of taking someone as a. captive in war and then instead of. killing them which you could do making. them into your property. was a very very widespread. in human culture.

so i mean i'd like to make this point. sometimes when we people are talking. about how wrong slavery was and i agree. without any question. that the practice was. profoundly morally. problematic. but i like to make the point that. given how wrong it was. think about how uh. impressive was the accomplishment of the. eradication of slavery now that was. something there were 600 000 dead.

in the war between the states 1861 to. 1865 in a country of 30 million people. that's a that's a lot of dead people. uh. who. gave their lives not to eradicate. slavery and in every instance probably. most of them were just. fighting for uh you know. they enlisted or were. conscripted into the forces and they. fought and they died. but the net effect of their having. fought and died uh was to.

push along a process that led to the. eradication of slavery that's an amazing. achievement. the slaves themselves. were. largely. uneducated and. you know backward in their. of course what else could they have been. they they were kept in captivity they. were uh prevented from developing their. human potential and yet. uh after the end of slavery that. population that four million plus.

african descended people. became the foundation for what a century. later. leads to martin luther king standing in. the. washington mall. and giving that great speech. and now here we are 150 years down the. road. and barack obama is president of the. united states now he did not descend. from slaves i think we must not lose. track of that. but he identified as an african-american. and was a part of the population.

that consisted largely of people who. descended from slaves. and. we are we african americans are. for all practical purposes. fully equal citizens of this great. republic that has happened within a. century and a half. and i don't know that you can find any. parallel to that kind of. transformation in the status of people. from human chattel. uh to full citizens of the republic.

anywhere in human history it's certainly. um worth celebrating the achievement of. the eradication of slavery i would say. and it probably started with a few. people. that. inside their mind dared to rebel. you know it's interesting to think about. how it all started. how. in the state of injustice. the. the revolution percolates.

like where it starts you said people. that see something is wrong find each. other. it's you know. it's in the ideas of charismatic. individuals that not only know that. something is wrong but they're able to. tell others about it. and be. convincing. and then together gather. and rise up it's interesting to make. this kind of incredible progress from. slavery to where we are today to live.

out the ideal of this all men and creed. created equal. yeah the power of individual because i i. don't i don't know what you think about. it but i tend to think that. a few small individuals. probably originated this like it's the. power of the individual because. sometimes we think there's injustice in. the world what can i possibly do i tend. to think one person can. be the seed. of starting to fix the injustice. sure.

one person here one person there. yeah. um one thinks of course of. frederick douglass the. massively. significant figure. who was born in slavery. who. stole his. freedom and uh because he was property. and he he decided he was not going to be. property anymore and he took it unto. himself to. emancipate himself personally and who. became an educated.

powerfully. articulate. uh. massively influential person in the. united states and in england. uh going around. presenting himself as uh an embodiment. of human dignity and. commitment to ideals of equality and. you know i mean he's just one person. but there were others.

just one person all it takes is just one. person so here we are. on this topic of equality. in uh. the 21st century. so what does equality mean today. if you start to think. about this idea of equality of outcome. or the injustice of inequality. at which point does equality of outcome.

is just at which point is it unjust. sort of looking at our world today and. looking at in inequality. how do we know. that some inequality is a sign of. injustice and some is the way of life. so what does equality mean when we look. at the world today different from dr. king's speech of the basic humanity i. don't think king's speech. i have a dream that one day my four. little children will be judged not by.

the color of their skin but by the. content of their character. requires. equality of outcome. he says his children will be judged by. the content of their character. that's a conditional statement. that is. the judgment will depend upon the. content of their character. not the color of their skin but it. doesn't. follow from that that the outcomes. whatever outcomes we consider wealth and.

economic power. um. position within the society. representation in the various. professions uh the. various measures of social achievement. doesn't follow from. judging by the content of character and. not color of skin. that when we look at the end of the day. at the social outcomes that they will be. equal across the different groups. in fact i think there's a contradiction. in the idea that groups will be equal in.

all the various social outcomes that. they will be. equally successful in business that they. will be. proportionately represented in the. various professions that. they will have the same educational. achievement that the. occupational profiles will look the same. if they are in fact distinct groups with. their own cultural traditions and. practices. with their own ideals and norms.

um various immigrant populations. people coming to the united states of. america from all corners of the world. uh the descendants of the african slaves. the. black americans here today who are. ourselves various with different origins. and so on. the different religious practices and. commitments that. jewish or. mormon or. christian or whatever.

however we parcel up. the total population into the various. groups these groups are themselves. different from one another. they have different. norms within their own. cultural practice. how would we expect if in fact we. recognize that the groups are different. from one another. that in a world that is fair they would. all come out. equally represented in every undertaking.

they're not equally represented and that. fact i'm arguing is in and of itself. insufficient. to justify the conclusion. that they're not somehow being. fairly treated fair treatment doesn't. imply. equal outcomes in a world in which. the populations in question are. themselves different. with respect to their culture their. practices their norms their traditions. their beliefs their ideals.

and so on the fact of those different. norms traditions beliefs. cultural orientations and ideals will. have consequences in terms of their. different. social outcomes so i just think it's a. mistake. that people are making. when they think. fairness of treatment. implies equality of outcomes it does not. is the process by which uh we're we're.

speaking now. uh in the midst of the of the national. basketball association's playoffs. uh i confess to being a boston celtics. fan i mean i'm just. it's a very good team and i'm excited. about my celtics. we defeated. the uh brooklyn. uh nets. i mean we defeated kevin durant and. kyrie irving and company okay in a. playoff series.

we whip them. and we're on our way to you know. the eastern conference finals and we're. on our way to the nba finals and i'm you. know. if i were a betting man i'd put down a. few bucks that the boston celtics. underrated as we are. have a very good chance to win in the. nba finals. okay so that's the nba that's the. national basketball association i'm a. sports fan i like basketball slightly. biased prediction but yes. yeah it is somewhat biased. all i'm saying is.

if you take a look at who the star. players are in the national basketball. association you're going to find that. there's some eastern europeans. you know there's some really good. basketball players coming out of uh. eastern europe you know. and more power to them. um and there are a lot of african. americans. uh we're overrepresented. uh they're not that many jews as far as. i know no offense intended there lex but. i mean. the. nba.

is not. equally representative of all of the. different populations in the united. states now we could go into the reasons. why but i'm just saying the process. by which you get to be playing in the. nba is fair. if you can play. you can get on the court that they all. they're looking for is people who can. play i think something like that is true. in many different venues i expect if. you're a really good. technical.

engineer. companies are going to employ you. and if you can make money. they're going to advance you and and you. will be able to. rise to the top of that profession i i. expect that the people who are. engaged in financial transactions who. are actually making bets on the market. by and large are the people who are good. at that activity and if you're good at. that activity in this world in this. modern world. you're gonna. rise to uh rise to the top um.

i'm not saying that there are no. barriers of discrimination of course of. course there are of many different sorts. but i'm saying that to expect that there. would be. okay i mean let's look at who's actually. writing code let's look at who's. actually trading bonds let's look at uh. who's who's actually starting businesses. um and so on to say that if that in a. fair world i would expect that if black. said ten percent of the population. they'd be ten percent of every one of.

those things. is to ignore the reality. that the differences in the culture and. practices and norms. of the various population groups will. lead to differences in their. representation amongst people who are. outstanding performers in. one or another. activity how do you know. if the difference in culture accounts. for the difference in outcomes. or it's the existence of barriers.

especially barriers early on in life. of discrimination that are racially. based so if you think about affirmative. action. is. in which ways is affirmative action. empowering and which way is it limiting. for these early development of the of. the different groups but let's just. speak to african americans we should say. that. you went to some no name northwestern. university at first but then you ended. up with a great university of mit.

uh so uh so that's that's your not early. but middle development. um so speaking of the development. the opportunities. the equality of opportunity. how do we know we got that equality. right. yeah i'm glad you put it like that we. were talking about results now we're. talking about opportunity i was taking a. position that. when king says i have a dream and he. envisions a world where his children.

will not be. barred from. the good things in life because of the. color of their skin. we're talking about. opportunity. not about results. but opportunity is not just something. that depends upon. what the law is and what public policies. are opportunity also depends upon. the the social conditions in which. people are are raised the social and. economic conditions so. the child of a poor.

family that has no resources. it doesn't have the same opportunity as. a child of a wealthy family. to realize their full human potential. you ask me how can we tell whether or. not a. difference in outcomes. is a reflection of unequal opportunity. or it's a reflection of differences in. culture and interest and and practice. and i don't know that there's a single. answer to that question but i think.

one wants to look at the data one one. wants to try to. measure. you know as a social scientist i would. say you what you want to do is you want. to estimate. the. uh. the significance of various factors for. determining the outcome if the outcome. is. how much money does a person make when. they work in the labor market so you. look at their wages. and you think well that depends upon a. number of things it depends upon how. educated they are what kind of skills.

they have. what kind of work experience they have. and so on and those things are all. legitimate factors. that might determine how much they end. up making in the labor market. but you also want to perhaps con. controlling for those things see whether. or not. the fact that they are black or they are. latino or whatever fact that they are. male or that they are female. the fact that they do or do not speak.

english as their native language this. kind of thing whether those. factors also. are implicated in determining. uh how successful they are in the labor. market and if you find that after you. have. controlled for the things that are. legitimately. determining. uh success and failure in the labor. market like skills and education. and experience having controlled for. those things. the fact that a person is black or is.

a woman or is an immigrant or. is of. of a. latino. background. also. affects their earnings then you might. conclude that to that extent. they're not getting equal opportunity. labor that kind of idea. but i want to focus. a little bit more here. on what we mean by opportunity because. it's not just whether employers. treat the worker. on a fair.

and even basis irregardless of the. workers racial or ethnic background. that's one. opportunity issue but that's how that's. at the end of the development. process they are now. presenting themselves to the market. trying to find work. and being employed at this or that wage. that's the end of the line. what about the developmental opportunity. the opportunity to acquire skills in the. first place. that goes all the way back that goes all.

the way back to birth it even goes back. to before birth. um. the mother. carrying the infant in the womb. she has certain nutritional. uh. practices she might be smoking or. drinking alcohol or something like that. i'm not saying she is i'm not saying she. is and i'm just saying whether she is so. she is and it will affect the. development of the fetus uh the newborn. uh now there's a question of environment.

uh there's a question of the development. of their. uh neurological uh potential do they. learn how to read do. are they stimulated. verbally how many words have they heard. spoken. are they. being. nurtured in a home environment so as to. maximize the possibility of them. achieving their human potential. what about the peer group influences. what about the. values and norms of the surrounding.

communities in which they're embedded do. they encourage the young person to apply. themselves. uh in a systematic way. to their studies and to their. focus on their. acquisition of language command and of. their. educational potential. so development. is not only something that. is controlled by. the society's practices it's also.

something that is influenced by the the. cultural background. of the individual and those things are. not. equal. uh those things vary across. uh groups in in a very uh significant. way. and that too will be a factor. determining disparities of outcome. so when i see outcomes that are. different. i see wealth holding. that's different i see educational. achievement that's different i see.

representation in the professional. schools in law school and medical school. that's different between groups. one question is are the institutions. treating people fairly but another. question is. do the background in social and cultural. influences equip people. in the same way. and we know that the answer to that not. in every instance do they equip people. in the same way. and so it makes the judgment the moral. judgment that we make when we see. inequality of outcome.

complicated. inequality of outcome is a systemic. factor to some degree. but it is also. a cultural factor to some degree. i want to say and that's controversial i. know. a lot of people. they think of themselves as being. progressive. uh they they want to. point a finger at society whenever they. see a disparity. uh but i think that that's a mistake i.

think it misunderstands. the the. difficulty of the problem. you think that if you get the right law. uh if you have the right public policy. uh if the right politicians are elected. to office suddenly those disparities. will go away. and um i'm here to tell you that uh that. that's uh a false hope. um. and and moreover it is probably the. wrong goal. uh but i mean we could go into that. you were talking about affirmative.

action which is is something else. altogether. uh and you were talking about me and my. education which is also something. that's a little bit different and i'm. happy to talk about those things. northwestern university by the way was a. great university i'm just joking it's. one of the great universities of the. world yes and i'd study mathematics at. northwestern university which is how i. ended up at mit in the first place and i. got a very good technical training. in mathematics when i was at. northwestern so you love both.

mathematics and human nature and so. which is why you ended up going into. economics. at one of the great economics programs. in the world at mit and getting your pg. there so one of the many hats you wear. is that of an economist which allows you. to think. systematically and rigorously about the. way the world and the way humans work at. scale. um. trying to remove the full mushy mess of. humans like a psychology perspective.

economics allows you to do. well economics is one of the social. sciences i i think there's value in. psychology and in sociology there's a. lot to know that doesn't. come up within the study of economics. we study markets and you know the. dynamics of economic. development and. you know trade and um. you know so on. but uh yeah uh speaking personally as i. was coming along. i was fascinated by mathematics i was.

good at it and i ended up at. northwestern and. took a lot of courses there and you know. functional analysis and logic and. mathematics and uh. dynamical systems and you know stuff. that i ended up employing in my graduate. studies in economics. but. you're right i. was not satisfied simply to be. proving theorems i wanted to be. addressing issues of social significance.

and economics. i discovered. to my delight. was a field of study that allowed me. both to. develop rigorous. analytical frameworks you know modeling. uh and precision of logical. uh you know deduction and and inference. uh on the one hand. satisfying my mathematical uh. interest.

but on the other hand could address. questions of social significance like. why does racial inequality persist. why are some countries prospering and. growing and others less so. why do the prices of. raw materials fluctuate in the way that. they do over time and so on and so forth. and i ended up. falling in love with the application of. mathematical analysis. to the study. of social issues what do you use. beautiful about.

mathematics about mathematical puzzles. about logic all those kinds of things. because you. it's still there the love for math is. still there for you so is there. something you could speak to what is the. the kernel the flame of that love. it's like magic. i mean you know. being able to prove something and uh i. mean you know i think of uh offhand you. know there's low there's no largest. prime number okay so.

how do i how would somebody know that. okay what's a prime number so a prime. number is a number that has a whole. number that has no divisor. other than one there are no. divisors of the number that makes it a. prime number like 13. or 19. or 37 whatever okay. so they're prime numbers. there's no largest prime number their. infinite number of prime numbers there's. no largest prime number okay that's an. idea you can get your mind around it in. an instant it it doesn't take a whole. lot of depth to see.

the question. there's no largest prime number i wonder. if prime numbers show up in economics i. mean that oh they don't show up in. economics but except if cryptography i. understand that's important yes yes for. code. you know in in encoding stuff and that. shows up in economics but in terms of. models. yeah um. probably not that's that's so prime. numbers. are little. um you know in uh uh um. abstract algebra it's like they show up. in all these places they're just like.

beautiful mathematical puzzles that. don't immediately have an application. but somehow maybe challenge you. and as a result push mathematics forward. like for mars last theorem you know. as far as i know no obvious real world. application but it has challenged. mathematicians throughout the centuries. indeed. and. and somehow. indirectly progressed uh the field but. uh that the rational numbers are.

countable. they can be put in one to one uh. relationship with the integers and you. know. but that the real numbers are not. countable and there's a lot more real. number more real numbers these are. orders of infinity this is. uh cantor gay or cantor and all that. kind of. that kind of stuff or girdles of uh. theorem i i studied this as an. undergraduate you know the. incompleteness theorem that there are. propositions within any logical system. that's rich enough to accommodate.

uh. accommodate arithmetic they're going to. be. propositions that you can formulate that. are true but that you. cannot prove to be true. uh so the idea that you could. systematically develop a logical. framework for mathematical inquiry. that could demonstrate the truth or. falsity of any proposition. is. not a feasible goal this was hilbert's. project as i understand it and.

uh. girdle showed that there was no hope. ever of being able to. demonstrate the closure of of logical. systems that were rich enough to. accommodate. the real numbers they gave an. existential crisis to all uh. mathematicians and scientists alike and. humans because maybe you can't prove. everything i remember. you know when i was uh. i was a junior college a community. college student before i transferred to. northwestern and i took a calculus.

course. uh and it was a lot of fun. and it was differentiating. algebraic. expressions and integrating and using. trigonometric substitutions and. it was a lot of simple problem solving i. get to northwestern i take a course in. differential equations. and again it was a lot of formulaic you. know applying if you get a differential. equation of this structure like if it's. linear you've got exponentials etc you. can solve it. and then i took a course that showed me.

you know where the question was not how. to solve any particular. functional expression but it was proving. the existence of a solution to a. differential equation. where it was like x dot equals f of x. and t and f is just some arbitrary. function. what do i have to assume about the. function f in order to know that there. exists the solution to the differential. equation. dx dt. equals f of x and t.

and it's basically they called it a. lipschitz condition it's a condition. about the bounding of the. the slope of. the function f as a function of x that. it doesn't. uh. that you can sort of uniformly bound the. slope on that function and then you can. use a. iterative process to uh show that the. sequence of. you know partial solutions to the thing. converges to something that's a solution. to the real thing anyway again i'm not. not going to bore you or.

pretend that i'm a mathematician i'm not. but what i'm saying is the difference. between. a specific. algebraic formula that you can. manipulate and solve on the one hand. and the abstract question of whether. there exists a solution in the general. case. is like a huge was like a huge step for. me uh in my study of mathematics and um. the techniques that you have to employ. to address these. larger questions and and so on so i.

you know when i was an undergraduate i. took the first year phd sequence in math. analysis. at northwestern from a brilliant. mathematician named avner friedman. and learned about measure theory and. you know learned about uh. uh. some some early functional analysis. ideas. and when i saw that those ideas were. being applied by advanced study and.

economics i was delighted i found an. intellectual home. so that. one of the. fascinating challenges of mathematics is. to think. how can you cons. which echoes the challenge of economics. what are the properties of an equation. that allow you to. say something profound and say it simply. and so the question of economics is how. do you construct a model where you can. generalize nicely and say something.

profound and say it simply. uh so one of the. questions one of the challenges of. economics. is macro versus microeconomics yeah is. um. you know the world is made up of. individuals so there's a connection to. this our discussion of. of race and discrimination and outcomes. and all those kinds of things. the world is made up of individuals. but in order to say something. general. we have to construct.

groups. in order to analyze the data we have to. aggregate that data somehow we have to. make an average over some set of people. so what are the pros and cons of. looking at things like equality of. opportunity and equality of outcome. based on groups versus based on. individuals. and. uh. what are the groups. if there's any pros to looking at groups.

that we should be looking at. okay well those those are big questions. i mean in economics. you're right i mean micro you have a an. account of how individuals make. decisions about spending their money. on this consumption side and about how. enterprises make decisions about. uh what to produce how much of it what. inputs to use what techniques of. production and so on. individual firms individual consumers. and then you want to aggregate so. there's a theory of so-called theory of.

general equilibrium where. you know you think. supply and demand in a bunch of markets. you think prices that move to. equilibrate. but you recognize that the price in one. market affects people's behavior in. another the market's interacting with. each other. you realize that the behavior one. individual affects the. supplies and. available resources and for other. individuals so they're knitted together. in some kind of. systematic way. and you you.

want to try to demonstrate the fact that. notwithstanding all these. interdependencies. there exists a solution to the. system of equations that equates demand. and supply across all the different. markets this is. the existence of general equilibrium. then you want to try to say something. about the properties of an equilibrium. if it exists. is it efficient what do you mean by. efficiency. well the idea of so-called pareto.

efficient outcomes these are outcomes. that cannot be uniformly improved upon. everybody can't be made better off by an. alternative outcome. you want to demonstrate the efficiency. of competitive equilibrium. what do you mean by competition you mean. that people take their actions to. do the best for themselves that they can. profits of firms well-being of consumers. they try to do the best for themselves. that they can. but they do so in reference to a set of.

prices that they believe they cannot. control that's the criterion of. competitive. market circumstance so. does a competitive equilibrium exist do. there exist a set of prices which if. everybody recognizes them as given and. responds to those prices. on behalf of their own interest. the outcome will be. supply equaling demand in all the. markets where people are interacting. with one another. and that requires the use of some.

concepts in topology fixed point. theorems and whatnot that are familiar. to mathematics not very deep. mathematical results but important. to economics that's all about general. equilibrium and whatnot. but you ask about groups. by the way. amazing worldwide summary of all of. economics but yes go ahead that was that. was great. markets. of competition of pareto efficiency. anyway but yes groups and prices and. prices.

and by the way there are some very. beautiful. you know. uh. formalizations of everything that i'm. saying here you know you end up in. vector spaces you you end up with sets. of. bundles of consumption and production. you end up with convexity you end up. with. hyperplanes which are. you know in in this uh finite. dimensional vector space which are uh. you know. uh. all of the bundles that have the same. value at a certain price you end up with.

inner products you know and and you know. it's just. it's very pretty yeah but you almost. forget that it's just a bunch of humans. transacting with each other. uh. that that markets are made up of. individuals. markets are made up of individuals and. in order to carry out this formalization. you have to make assumptions. about the individuals and. the end result is true in a formal sense. but may not be true as a representation.

of the reality. because it depends upon assumptions that. themselves may not hold. but at least you know what it is that. has to be true in order for your formal. framework to be. relevant. which is already a step in the right. direction i think i mean the. formalization is better than the. intuition. the aren't your intuition where we sit. back and we don't really know. exactly what we're talking about because. we haven't pinned it down.

um in in a precise way i'm in favor of. the formalization people. they think what is mathematics and the. social sciences after all we're dealing. with people people are not automata i. agree with that. but. the analysis of the interaction of. people i think to be rigorous. requires us to be specific. uh about what we're talking about about. markets about consumers about firms. about profits. uh about technology about preferences.

and uh that's the language of economics. um but people's behavior depends upon. what they seek. in life what depends upon their goals. and their objectives. those things are at play. uh they can be pushed this way or that. so. i mean i you know nationalism. fighting and dying for your country. um religion. uh sacrificing on behalf of some.

abstract ideal of the good or of you. know what is the human situation and. what is the meaning of life. economists have to assume that these. things are some particular thing before. they can. turn the crank on their machine to. analyze the outcomes of human. interaction and yet these things. uh belief in. my identity. but the things that i'm willing to. sacrifice and die for. purposes of life that i affirm and pass. on to my children.

are important preconditions for actually. carrying out any economic analysis and. they are subject to manipulation and to. change over time. and that's not something that economics. has a whole lot to say about. well is there some general things that. are really powerful in terms of you said. nation. religion those are groups. yeah can you group people nicely. in helping you understand human nature. so.

group them into nations based on their. citizenry. that's geography right. the geographic location of your birth. or your uh long-term residence or maybe. religious belief what you what religion. you believe over time. is there groups like that and then. race. is that. useful. what are the pros and cons of looking at. outcomes based on.

these kinds of groups. race in particular. i think they're pros and i think they're. cons i mean i am myself glenn lowery. sits before you right now. a black american an african american i i. quote unquote i identify as you know. that's the way they talk about it. nowadays i identify as a black american. my skin is brown. my hair is coarse. my nose is broad. uh relative to the way other people's. noses look my lips are thicker.

that's a. consequence of my. ancestral descent. from. the human population. resident in the african continent in. millennia past. my race. uh here in the united states we have. various quote unquote races. uh defined crudely in the way that i. just tried to define myself. you could say and i think there is a.

very powerful argument that these are. superficial differences. i mean. really why should it matter that your. eye color. or your hair color. or the shape of the bones in your face. uh or the color the tone of your skin. the amount of melon and how it is that. you react to ultraviolet radiation in. terms of your. skin. what is that. to bait the basis of anything i mean.

that's arbitrary that's not meaningful. could there really be meaning in these. superficial differences among human. beings isn't that a. archaic or barbaric way of thinking. about ourselves to. look at each other's skin color or hair. texture and then to decide oh that's a. black or that's a white or that's a. latin or that's an asian or that's a. whatever. that's. something that we should outgrow. a person might say. that's a relic of a kind of tribal.

society of a kind of pre-modern. society where. uh we built real. structure on the basis of such. superficial difference a person could. say that. on the other hand i. am. a black american i mean that's part of. my. identity that's part of my. heritage it's part of the. stories that i tell myself about.

who my people are. why do i need a people why do i need a. narrative of. dissent. in which i affiliate with. a racially defined people do i really. need that i mean i think that's an. important question i i in fact. this is a confession. think of myself as black i could. think of myself as simply human i could. not identify specifically as black i. could i could say.

my my eyes are brown too so what i'm a. brown eye i mean you know i'm going to. invent a group based on my eye color um. i weigh 290 pounds i'm gonna have a body. size group i'm a plus 200 and that's. quote who i am close quote i don't do. that. i came from chicago yes i do have a. certain sense of affinity with my. hometown i'm a chicago-born. person but frankly i haven't lived in. chicago since 1979.

that's a long time. uh i wear my chicago origins very very. lightly. i would not go to war with someone from. cleveland or st louis. and fight to the death with that uh st. louis person or that cleveland person. based upon the fact that we come from. different cities and you have even. abandoned in your heart the chicago. bulls there's some chicago that's still. in me i suppose but it's not it's not. very deep it it's not quote who i am. anymore and i'm wondering uh i hear i'm.

trying to pose a question why is it that. being. a descendant of african slaves should be. who i am so there's some answers. one answer is. people will look at me and deal with me. differently based upon what they see. i don't have control over that. i'm going to be perceived as a member of. a group whether or not i elect to. affiliate myself with that group. or not. therefore. i need to be mindful of the fact that.

regardless of what my internal. orientation is. the world will perceive me in a. particular way and will perceive me. differently based upon the color of my. skin so a police officer who stops me at. two o'clock in the morning because my. tail light is out. and asked me for my. automobile registration and i reached. quickly to the glove compartment. to get my registration. and the police officer says show me your.

hands and i don't quite hear what he. says or i ignore what he says i'm. getting my. document out of my glove compartment but. the police officer thinks because i have. not responded. to his demand to show my hands that i. might be reaching for a weapon. and the police officer sees that i'm. black and. fears that the likelihood that i might. have a weapon is higher because in that. town at that time. a lot of the people who get stopped with. weapons in their car happen to be. black and male and so on.

and he pulls his weapon and he. discharges it and i'm bleeding out there. and i'm dead now and i all of that is a. possibility that's very real and it's. based upon the color of my skin and. therefore. when he stops me i keep my hands on the. steering wheel and i don't go to the. glove compartment and i'm fearful of the. fact that he might. mistake me for a criminal etc. or i walk into a high-end. store clothing store uh i see you're. nicely dressed there lex uh i'm not but.

that's okay. i i do have some good clothes at home i. just didn't wear them here today yeah uh. but you know what i mean and the clothes. the the salesman in the clothing store. either. treats me like uh you know an old friend. and is warm and welcoming and what can i. do for you sir and let me show you this. and that and what are you looking for. and what because he thinks i'm going to. spend a thousand dollars there that day. and he's going gonna get a five percent. commission or whatever it is and you. know he either does that or he ignores.

me and looks at me with suspicion and. thinks i might be trying to shoplift. something or thinks i'm only going to. spend fifty dollars and not five hundred. dollars and therefore i'm not worth his. time and i'm aware of the fact that when. i go into the clothing store especially. the high-end places where i can buy some. buy a good suit or you know buy some. really good dress shirts or slacks that. fit me well and so on i'm aware of the. fact that i may not be taken seriously. by the salesman based upon the fact that.

he's looking at me and he sees. a black person and therefore. um. i dress up before i go to go out to buy. clothes to get you know because i want. to present myself as not someone who. just walked in off the street but as one. of those black people who is really. prepared to spend some money in the. store so that i can be treated with. respect and i have to carry the. burden such as it is. of knowing that i need to earn. the uh. being taken seriously.

by overcoming the suppositions that. people may have about me based upon the. color of my skin. something like that. or i ask myself. what am i going to teach my children. about who they are and where they come. from what stories am i going to tell. them. about their ancestors who are their. ancestors. every african-american has european. ancestors every black person in the. united states of america. i think that i can say that almost.

without exception. we could go to 23andme and look at the. dna. they have european ancestors they're not. purely african. uh that's a fact and that's a. consequence of the uh experience of. african descended people because it's a. mixed population. my name is lowry. spelled l-o-u-r-y but pronounced as if. it were l-o-w-e-r-y. and uh i gather if you trace the history. of that name that it's uh.

scottish. so somewhere you could identify as a. scot all right well i could claim some. scottish descent. but i don't i don't know who those. ancestors are and frankly i don't know. who my enslaved ancestors. are i i can't trace my family history. back. very far. into the 19th century. um but so what what stories do i tell my. children about who we are about who. their ancestors are i mean i want to. tell my children some story and that.

story is going to be colored. quote unquote. by. my race. so even though it is superficial. and in an ideal world you might think. why would human beings. i mean i read science fiction so that. there's this chinese writer chiksan liu. is his name i might not pronounce it. exactly right c-i-x-i-n. l-i-u chickson lou he has a trilogy of. the three-body problem.

the dark forest. and death's end those are the three. books of chicks and lou's trilogy about. how try solaris. which is another star system within a. few light light years of the solar. system. and earth. get into a conflict. and when the tricelerians come down. to dominate earth. suddenly all of these differences. between the chinese and the.

north americans and the europeans and. the africans and the south asians. become kind of insignificant because. after all the tricelerians with their. advanced civilization uh whose star. system is dying. have their eyes on the solar system. which has a planet the third rock from. the sun that is pretty habitable and. you know the difference between us. become pretty insignificant. so. we shouldn't need. for an invasion by extraterrestrial.

beings. to have to happen. before we would recognize the common. humanity that we all share. that is profound. and is deep we all descend in effect. from the same ancestral population of. homo sapiens who walked out of east. africa eons ago and have. survived amongst all of the different. possible. you know variations of species and. whatnot of humanoid.

population homo sapiens have flourished. the others have died out. and here we are and and you know we can. just look at the genetic endowments that. characterize our biological. essence and we can see that uh. we are all quote unquote the same. beneath the skin and yet. we end up. uh freighting so much weight. onto these superficial differences so i. can i can see both sides of the. issue is what i'm saying i can see the. argument race is an irrelevancy.

because. at the end of the day. deep down it is. but i can also see the argument that i. hold on to racial identity because a. my racial presentation colors how other. people. deal with me but because. everybody needs a story. you know everybody needs an account you. tell me you're jewish i mean i don't. know how deep that is i don't know how. genetically profound that is i do know. that it's a culturally.

profound. identity for a lot of people. uh based upon maybe some of the same. kind of forces that i'm talking about a. they won't let you not be jewish. you you could say you're not jewish but. when hitler is rounding people up. what you say doesn't have a whole lot to. do with the with what the gestapo was. about. and b you need to tell your children a. story yeah you know that's the. fascinating thing about this tribalism. that you spoke about.

that. we form tribes. as humans throughout human history. formed tribes and have directed hate. toward other tribes. and sometimes violence and destruction. and yet. tribalism allows you to tell a story to. your children allows you to grow a. culture. there's something about defining. yourself within a particular tribe yeah. that allows you to uh have a tradition. yeah um you have a.

um article that you wrote called the. case for black patriotism. oh yeah. so i should also say it's so interesting. because for me personally. i. feel identify as. believe i am an american. and yet within the american umbrella. it feels that there's a longing for. other tribes you mentioned jewish but. what i honestly feel.

is i mean a lot of it is humor and. culture and so on is russian and. ukrainian because that's that's where i. come. from that's where my family is from. you know there's like. stereotypical things that are. um funny. humorous type of thing about russians. that's showing no emotion. um. good at chess and math. uh into wrestling okay uh drinking vodka. i mean this is literally every single. stereotype i'm in the embodiment of that.

so there's a you celebrate that in. certain kinds of ways there's a. tradition there within the american. umbrella and some of it is humor. some of it is uh. little quarks of culture but now with. the war in russian ukraine interestingly. enough. even that little thing. it becomes also a source of. uh. tribalism but anyway. uh that context aside. what is black patriotism. and why do you feel.

i mean i'm speaking in an article called. the case for black. patriotism in a particular context. and i. what i'm saying basically. is very simple i'm saying we are african. americans. and the emphasis should be on the. american. i actually don't even much care for the. framing. african-american but i'm not gonna fight.

with people about it it it's you know i. don't think it's worth fighting about. that's not how i would just say we're. americans or if you want we're black. americans. we're certainly not african. that is the african-american population. is a population of people. who come into existence here in north. america. through the cauldron of slavery. there are also immigrants immigrants. from east africa immigrants from west. africa immigrants from southern africa.

immigrants from the caribbean. who descend from. an ancestral population which is african. we you know the history of the world. since 1500 is a history in which people. of african descent are scattered because. of slavery. throughout the western hemisphere. and uh so here we are. but. the institution of slavery ended in 1863.

in the united states. the struggle that we started out talking. about. which um gave rise to martin luther king. giving that speech that you say is the. greatest speech in american history and. i'm not going to argue with you about. that. happened right here in the united states. yes. we are this what is the united states. the united states is a nation of. immigrants. the population of the north american.

continent was sparsely populated by an. indigenous population which was. destroyed. in conquest. by a european population has settled. here in north america and appropriated. the land. and have built a civilization here. which has been peopled by a large influx. of individuals from uh europe the irish. and italian. and. greek and slavic and.

jewish russian jews coming in large. numbers and so on in wave after wave. after wave of immigration. asian. latin american population of people who. have come. to reside here in the united states and. we black americans who descend from. slaves. we african americans who descend from. slaves so here we are. this is a great nation i mean this is. a monumentally significant. political. force which is the united states of.

america founded in. 1776 1787. uh fought a war of independence from the. british uh established a republic which. is a. confederation of these independent. colonies which has grown into now the 50. states of the united states of america. continental nation. the. richest. and most powerful nation on the planet. with massive influence throughout the.

world. for good and for ill. that's who we are i want to say to black. people. there is no other home for us. the this fantasy. of we being a people apart. uh back in the day when i was coming. along in the 1960s there was something. called the republic of new africa. movement and they wanted some states in. the south given over to black people and. we were going to have our own country.

and that's a it's a joke it's a fantasy. it's it's uh it's it's a mythic. uh. uh un. uh. balanced unrealistic. uh. fanciful. politics it's not a serious politics. we're americans we're not going anywhere. here. the idea that. and i want to say this in a number of. different registers i want to say first. of all. we need to make peace with the fact that.

that's who we are and that's where we. are. so uh. nobody is coming. the world court is not going to litigate. our disputes. the united nations is not going to set. up a desk. for people of african descent who reside. in north america. we have to work out whatever our. concerns are with our fellow americans. right here within the context of. american politics. that means compromise. that means looking for frame a framework.

for political expression which is. broader than our racial identity. etc so i i want to say that but i also. want to say there's no reason to. apologize for this there's something. positive to affirm i take on this. question about slavery i'm in in brief. in brief. because in fact slavery was awful and it. was wrong and it was. on the backs of the enslaved africans. and it had consequences that endured. that have endured long after the. termination of the thing but i also want.

to say. look at what has happened in the last. 150 years for african americans. and i want to say. look at the. vitality of the institutions here in the. united states of america of the. democratic republic of the united states. of america. again not perfect. which are which are malleable enough. these institutions to allow for the. transformation of the status of african. americans such as has occurred.

since. the end of slavery. and i want to say there's a lot to. celebrate in that. so this is our country. we are. uh full members of the polity. uh we have. uh burdens and responsibilities as well. as privileges that are associated with. our membership in this republic. that does not mean that we should not. fight for what we believe to be right. although we are not one. voice here we black americans it does.

not mean that we should not protest. things that we think are deserving of. protest. but i want to say it does mean that we. should not. reject the. framework that we're operating in. because we basically don't have any. alternative and because when viewed in. full context. a noble and profoundly. significant achievement the united. states of america and a beacon. uh to the rest of the world i don't want. to. you know go off in some starry eyed kind.

of. jingoistic celebration of america as the. greatest civilization etc etc. but this great nation. uh is um. our. nation and i think we do best by. beginning we black americans do best by. beginning this is my argument in the. piece by beginning. from a framework which accepts that fact. and then builds on it.

so black patriotism is. if not exactly the same. rhymes. echoes american patriotism. so a black american is first and. foremost an american yeah. a black american is first and foremost. an american. and it's a good thing too. let me return. to the question of dr king.

and. another. powerful impactful individual malcolm x. to ask you the question. well first. people often perhaps inaccurately. uh portray them as. representing two different. ideals approaches. to the fight for civil rights so martin. luther king for the non-violent approach. the peacemaker and malcolm x. is the.

by any means necessary. what do you think about this distinction. and broadly speaking in black patriotism. in the future. of black americans in the 21st century. what is the role of anger. what is the role of. protest. even. you know violence encompasses a lot of. things but just aggression. and uh you know fuck the man we're going. to have to make change force change.

okay i think you put your finger on. something really important in the. context of we were just discussing my. black patriotism essay and. um. it's not the only it's not the only. story. there there is another story and malcolm. x is someone you identify and his. memory. lives on and is powerfully influential. uh and i think you see it in black lives. matter and i think you see it in the.

protest and rioting and so forth. that has broken out periodically going. all the way back to the 1960s and before. but especially. since uh the 1960s. he saw it in los angeles in 1992 in the. rodney king civil disturbances that. broke out there. and the the balled up fist. the radical. uh. afrocentric. rejection of the. american.

story that martin luther king he. believed in he believed in a magnificent. promissory note. and a lot of people are rolling their. eyes you know and saying you know as you. say fuck the man magnificent promissory. no. i mean just get your knee off my neck. that's what you can do for me don't ask. me to believe in your bs about some. magnificent promissory you know some. founding fathers who were all slave. owners anyway i mean just get your knee. off my neck. now. i can relate to that uh as i mentioned i.

grew up in chicago in the 1950s and the. 1960s i remember malcolm x i mean. literally in real time. i remember when he was murdered. in 1965 in the audubon. ballroom. in harlem in manhattan in new york city. um. i remember my uncle i i was raised in a. house where my aunt and uncle were the. master of the house and my mother and my.

sister and i lived in a small. apartment upstairs in the back of this. of this big house that my successful. aunt and uncle owned. and my uncle was a small businessman a. barber and. a tradesman. he was he was a hustler i mean legally i. mean he did what he had to do to make. money he was very enterprising. not especially well educated but a very. intelligent and. disciplined. and resourceful.

provider for his family which included. myself my. sister and my mother in their household. and we called him uncle mooney because. he had. moon-shaped eyes that protruded and were. around uncle mooney. uh james. ellis was his name uncle mooney. james ellis lee. that was my uncle mooney but i'm saying. all that to say this. he admired the nation of islam. i mean. king and malcolm x martin king and.

malcolm x differed along a number of. different dimensions malcolm x was a. muslim. and martin luther king jr was a. christian minister. my uncle mooney. didn't have any time for these christian. ministers. he thought that was a white man's. religion. he you know and back in that day you go. into a black church and you'd see a. portrait of jesus. and he'd be a. blonde hair blue-eyed yeah. he didn't even look like uh like a. mediterranean he didn't i mean he didn't.

look like somebody who came from uh. palestine i mean he looked like somebody. who came uh from northern europe or. something like that the picture of jesus. and my uncle mooney rejected that whole. thing he would be damned if he was going. to bend his knee to some. white jesus. but he was not a muslim either. but he respected. the muslims he brought home their. newspaper it was called muhammad speaks. this is the nation of islam. which is the black muslim movement.

founded. in. american cities in detroit and in. chicago. going back to the early middle. 20th century and growing into a very. significant movement. that had a lot of influence louis. farrakhan and a controversial figure. descends from this movement it has. fractured now and. has the major part of the legacy of the. black muslims. has assimilated itself into islam.

proper. malcolm x made a. famous pilgrimage to mecca and medina. and. came back with a very different vision. about what it meant to be a muslim and. understood himself to be a part of the. large tradition and religious. culture of islam that has a global reach. and he had a different vision when he. came back from that. some people say that's why he was killed. and so on um i don't know. i certainly find that to be plausible.

that he became the constitute a threat. to the sect. uh which was the uh the black muslims. and i had to be had to be dealt with. uh i don't know if we'll ever know the. full story on that. but anyway what i'm trying to say is. the black muslims were there malcolm x. was there and in my. experience. they constituted a counterpoint. to the position of king which depended. on a kind of respect. for the best of the tradition.

of american democracy. appealing to the better nature. of our oppressors live up to the full. meaning. of our creed i mean these are words that. he would use a magnificent promissory. note is what he would think of as the. declaration of independence and. the legacy of abraham lincoln. unfulfilled ideal. and. the black muslims were like.

fuck that. we're going to take care of our own. we we're going to build our own schools. we're going to build our own businesses. uh. we're we're not waiting for the white. man to do anything get your knee off my. neck and get out of my way and let me. take care of my own and my uncle. respected that he respected the straight. back. the the stand up straight with your. shoulders back that's a jordan peterson. but i mean that was this is way before. jordan peterson but that was his. philosophy stand up straight but just. raise your children don't be depending.

upon welfare you're taking welfare from. the white man you need to get busy you. need to educate yourself you need to. clean up your act put down the fried. chicken because it's going to kill you. my uncle mooney. loved this book. that elijah muhammad they they called. him the honorable elijah muhammad was. the founder. and the leader of the nation of islam he. had a book and all the books said was. be smart eat green vegetables. don't eat fried food.

uh don't eat pork they're muslims don't. eat pork. uh and take responsibility for your diet. and be healthy and uh you know don't be. putting a whole lot of pills into your. body you don't need to do that if you. just get control of your diet and you. you know you eat probably now my uncle. loves this idea. of responsibility for self. and a determination to build. uh you know he. he respected that in the muslims even if.

he didn't. by the religious part of it. and so. and and by the way when my uncle died. uh in 1983. he left me a bequest. it wasn't money unfortunately. it was his complete collection of the. recorded speeches of malcolm x. and i have i have these albums these are. 33 and a third lps there's six of them.

uh and i have a complete collection as. best as my uncle could assemble the. recorded speeches of malcolm x now why. did he do that. he did that because he did not want me. to forget don't be dependent upon the. white man build your own. stand up straight with your shoulders. back. proud black man take care of your. business take care of your children. pick up the trash in front of your house. uh. get busy. this was this philosophy.

uh so. violence now. that's another story i mean malcolm x. would say you know. we're going to defend ourselves you're. going to mess with us you know you. racist ku klux klan or whatever we're. going to arm ourselves. and we're going to fight you back you. racist police who are. oppressing and persecuting and abusing. our people well. you better be ready because we're going. to fight you back. and.

that too was the spirit that my uncle. that was a kind of attitude a kind of. posture. uncle was not a radical he was he was a. businessman but. he respected this idea. you uh. take your life in your own hands when. you mess with us because we're prepared. to defend ourselves so that blood runs. in you too that threat is when you write. about black patriotism that threat is. there too. it's like. you embody both the ideal that we're all. american.

but also. that there is this oppressive history. there there is the powerful. that. are. manipulating you. that are oppressing you. and you can't just wait around for. things to fix themselves. you have to take action. you have to take things into your own. hands and sometimes that means being. angry sometimes that means being violent. that's there too. yeah it's there but.

um here in in the butt is. i don't me today glenn lowry in 2022. think that. that is the answer i i don't think that. violent. rebellion gets us anywhere at the end of. the day. i think we're past. that. uh there there aren't knight rider ku. klux klan uh people breaking down your. door and dragging you away they are not. uh nooses throw thrown over a tree uh.

limb. uh where you hang somebody from the tree. because they whistled at a white woman. or they. got too much property in your community. and you became you know they were uppity. negroes and whatnot like that that is. a thing of the past in america that the. uh. uh situation is no longer the one that. requires that kind of. violent reaction and that there there is. if we look at the net effect. of the so-called rebellions.

um. in the american cities. they're negative. uh the the. george floyd. protests which became violent and. arsonists in the aftermath of civil. disturbance and what not in the summer. of 2020 i think set back. the program for african americans i. don't think it advanced it. i i think there are things to be. concerned about. schools that are not working. uh police that are not not respecting.

citizens and so forth but i think that. those are things. that affect. white americans as well and that the way. to. ultimately. correct those things. is to. uh. make uh. alliance and associate oneself with. americans who are concerned to change. these things and i don't think it's. properly framed as a racial. um as a racial problem and i certainly. don't think.

that uh. you know violent. rebellion uh gets us anywhere i i'm you. know i i get the historical. salience of that posture. and it made a lot of sense. in the early in the mid 20th century i. don't think it makes very much sense at. all in the early 21st century. well thank you for allowing me for a. brief moment to try to channel your. uncle mooney and maybe malcolm x in this.

conversation as we as we look forward to. the 21st century you mentioned that um. in part you're troubled by the term. african-american. so words are funny things. until they're not so let me ask you. about. what i think is one of the most powerful. and controversial words in the english. language the n-word. so this is a word that i.

can't say. that only certain people have the right. to say. i have a friend joe rogan. yeah who has. um. what would you say there was mass. pushback or highlighting of of the fact. that he. didn't just say n-word but. said the full word. many times. throughout his conversations when. referring to. um. in a meta way. about the power of words.

especially when related to certain. comedians using those words. um yeah. what do you think about this word. is it. empowering is it destructive. what is it what does it mean for. race in america. um what does it mean that people like. joe rogan. were. essentially. there's an attack to cancel. him for using the word.

just as a scholar of human nature what. do you think about this whole thing. it this is a phenomenon that interests. me. okay. the n-word. nigger i could say it because i'm black. but i mean i can also say it because i. like hip-hop. and when i listen to hip-hop i hear the. word all the time these niggas did you. know. watch out for these you know etc. i heard the word constantly as i was. growing up as a boy and a young man in.

chicago niggas ain't shit. that was said. that was you know the the and that could. be a reflection of some kind of. pathology within the african-american. community of self-hatred and so forth it. could be or it could just be a. colloquial. linguistic way i mean i assume other. groups also have uh their. various i don't know how the irish talk. about their irish brothers and you know. whatever and um i i don't know how the. jews talk about the jewish brothers and.

whatever. but black people when talking about. other black people use the n word. all the time. my nigga yeah nigga. yeah you know my nigga. uh that is a term of endearment. my friend randall. kennedy uh the law professor at harvard. university has a book called nigger. and he uses the word in the title of the. book.

the history of a strange history of a. of a provocative word it's something. that there's a subtitle but the title of. the book. is n-i-g-g-e-r. colon. and then. he has a subtitle. um. i think. of course. the use of the word as a slur and an. insult. which is a. part of the history. of black people in the united states the. use of the word by the southern racist.

segregationist we don't want no niggas. up in here y'all you know niggas niggas. have no place in my restaurant in my. store etc. that's meant to be an insult it's an. insult to people it's a fighting word. it's a way that you say that to somebody. it's a it's a invitation for conflict. that said. what is it that about this particular. word and also the asymmetry of it. that do you think it's empowering to the. black community.

to own a word. my honest answer to you is i don't know. i don't fully understand it. it has become symbolic in a way. and the policing of the use of the word. i can say it but white people can't say. it i can say it i'm not a racist i'm not. a self-hating black. you know i'm just speaking the language. of colloquial english. that has emerged amongst african. americans in which that word plays a big. role. but the prohibition on its use by others.

and of course in the joe rogan case. it wasn't as if he was calling anybody. an n-word. he was simply pointing out. that people had said stuff in which the. n-word was a part of what they said. now he did make this statement about uh. uh how did he put in the planet of the. apes that one of the. offensive things that he said had you. know he walked into a room there's a. bunch of black guys standing around he. says like planet of the apes he said. it's like africa planet of the apes yeah.

he should have it and he should have. been a little bit more careful that was. that was an insult. that was that was you know. something that uh. you know if you say that and people are. offended they have a right to be. offended and if you didn't mean to. offend them you can apologize and he did. apologize i accept his apology joe's. okay with me as far as that goes. um in fact uh mcwhorter and i john. mcwhorter and i at the podcast that i do. the glenn show i had a conversation part. of which touched on the joe rogan. phenomenon and we concluded he didn't.

really do anything wrong i mean i mean. you can like remember you can hate him. or whatever but the idea that he's a. racist is kind of ridiculous so frankly. i mean. you know uh if that's your test of what. constitutes a racist the utterance of. the word. uh. then you know. it's kind of a it's it's kind of silly. as far as i'm concerned what do you. think about. the. rigorous testing of people to the degree. they're racist or not.

the accusation of racism being a way. um to attack to uh to bully. to divide. so what are the pros and cons of that. once again because it does reveal the. assholes and the racists but it can now. hurt people. who are not well i think we have a. history here. in the united states. of blatant racism. that goes back a long way.

and that has present day echoes. so. there are races i mean there are people. who look and see. all those are black people they're. they're patronizing this business i. don't want to patronize this business. anymore who if their daughter or their. son is dating somebody that is black. they will say i really wish you wouldn't. do that i mean why are you hanging out. with those people don't you know who. they are. uh there are people there are racists. okay there are black races. that is black people who see somebody. who's white and who then invoke a whole.

lot of stereotypes or whatever or have a. uh. you know visceral. dislike based upon nothing other than. the color of the person's skin such. people exist racism is a real thing etc. on the other hand. i think this uh throwing around you know. uh the accusation of racism. a college professor is teaching a course. he says in the context of teaching the. course. that.

the underrepresentation of blacks. in physics. uh program at this university is because. they score lower on the test than other. groups. and they're not qualified. so say the professor gives a lecture. and he says. we don't have more blacks in the physics. department at this university because. there are not enough qualified blacks. somebody in the. classroom who hears that a black student. objects he's a racist.

okay. that's a power move. it's a move to try to control. the conversation. it's not an argument it's an epithet. you've said that a person who has a. particular idea that you don't like. maybe that idea is i'm against. affirmative action i think it's unfair i. was just with dorian. abbott. dorian abbott. is a scientist at the university of. chicago.

who published a piece in newsweek. magazine. in which he said that he thought. affirmative action and. racial balancing. was unethical. uh he was invited to give a lecture at. mit a very distinguished lecture in his. field based on planetary. science i don't know exactly what it is. um i'm not a scientist. uh but in any case. because he had said. that he didn't like affirmative action. and he thought affirmative action was.

racist that's basically what he said why. are we looking at people based upon. their race and decide we should just do. it on the merit that was his position. now people protesting at the university. where he was invited mit. saying that he's a racist because he had. that opinion he gets disinvited. charles murray. um is a popular. social science writer. who is famous for his book about iq.

the bell curve. one chapter of which. chronicles the racial differences. between black and white. in performance on mental ability tests. and speculates about the extent to which. such differences may be connected with. the genetic inheritance of these. racially distinct populations. now he could be wrong about everything. that he's saying. the southern poverty law center calls. him a white supremacist. because he.

observes that there are racial. differences. in. measured intellectual ability. amongst americans of different racial. dissent. the i the you know he could be wrong let. me stipulate that he is wrong i mean i. don't want to argue about whether he's. right or about whether he's wrong. he's addressing himself to a factual. issue. and now the issue becomes instead of. grappling with the factual questions at. hand and demonstrating his rightness or.

wrongness about those questions. the issue becomes his character. he's a racist. um. that's in my mind a lot like calling him. a witch. the use of that word now. i think has parallels. to accusing people of witchcraft. because they have views about. substantive questions that bear on. racial inequality or racial difference.

that a person finds unacceptable or that. a person disagrees with and you think. you can shut somebody up. crime. in the cities of. chicago st louis baltimore philadelphia. washington dc is out of control some. person might say murder rate is high. who's committing those crimes they're. mostly black. young men who are doing the carjackings. and who are doing the shootings they're. killing each other they're making our.

city unlivable. now. that's a hypothetical statement that i. offer. it might be correct. it might be incorrect it might be. appropriate it might be inappropriate it. may be true but something that we would. be better off if people didn't focus on. i don't know. responding to someone making that. statement have you seen what has. happened to my city it used to be that. you could go to north michigan avenue.

and you could find one after another. after another high-end shop this is in. chicago my hometown. and uh tourists would come and they'd go. to the theater and there were. restaurants and they'd go out they don't. do it anymore you know what half of. those stores are boarded up now you know. why because when george floyd was killed. black people. mobbed in the city and they burnt and. they rioted and they looted and it. hasn't been the same ever since and i'm. moving to the suburbs i'll be damned if. i'm going to send my children to those. schools a person could say that.

they might be right they might be wrong. to say it calling them a racist is. exactly not. a rebuttal of what they said it's a move. it's a move to try to take control of. the conversation. by accusing someone of having bad. character because they said something. that made you uncomfortable which you. can't deal with so you think you can. shut them up. by calling them a racist you might as. well be calling them a witch. you might as well be calling for their. head on a platter because they believe. that satan is lord.

because that's the kind of. quote argument. close quote which is precisely not an. argument. that people who invoke that term are. using and here's what i have to say. about that. it's a fool's errand. to try to refute somebody. by calling them a witch likewise it's a. fool's errand. to try to rebut. the contrary forces in american politics. that are a reaction often. to real things that are going on on the.

ground in black communities in the. cities across this country by calling. people a racist. you may shut them up. but you won't change their minds and you. know what at the end of the day they're. going to go to the ballot box and. they're going to vote. they're going to pick up their store and. they're going to move it to the other. side of town or to another town. altogether they're going to keep their. children away from places where they. think the influences are harmful to. those children. they may not even talk about it in. public you can believe that in private.

that they're talking about it with each. other. you had better find a more effective way. of dealing with the conflicts in this. country that fall along racial fault. lines than calling people witches which. is what this. um. you know anti-racist you're a racist. because you think that uh the out of. wedlock birth rate amongst black. americans is seven babies out of ten are. born to a woman without a husband their. families are falling apart now no one. says that in public because they'd be. called a racist if they said it in. public but as a matter of fact the.

families are falling apart. you didn't change that in the lease by. telling people to shut up about it. daniel patrick moynihan is called a. racist in the 1960s the late senator the. new york senator who was a. federal employee and an intellectual. writing reports and he writes a report. about the negro family he called it in. those years if i use the word negro now. they're going to call me a racist if i'm. a white person i can't even use the word. negro. which is a historically. legitimate reference to the descendants. of the slaves.

enslaved people which we were as black. americans proud to use until yesterday. so all of this linguistic policing. is a sign of weakness. it's false black power. people will seat you the ground okay you. don't want me to use that word i won't. use that word anymore okay you don't. want me to talk about that in public all. right i won't talk about it in public. anymore i don't want to be called a. racist okay so i won't express my. opinion you haven't changed anybody's. mind. you know so.

and you've also mentioned that. for that you haven't changed anybody's. mind but also for things like. in universities and institutions there's. diversity inclusion and equity kind of. meetings and education and so on. and i believe i've read somewhere i've. been i'm like i mentioned to you offline. big fan of your glenn show people should. listen to it. uh it's amazing um. there's also just interviews of you that. i've listened to i believe you mentioned.

somewhere that even those kinds of. meetings people might sit through and. nod along. but that doesn't necessarily mean that's. making progress. that they may not. they may actually be bottling up a. frustration that's the fear is that. that's going to result in a. a pendulum pendulum. sort of push back towards this idea of. forced. uh. appreciation like forced anti-racism.

kind of thing. uh i talk about this often in my pockets. that's the glen show you know and you. can find the glen show on my youtube. channel and also at sub stack. uh yeah you have a great sub stack you. you and your friend do you q and a's and. all that kind of stuff on patreon yeah. so. yeah so people should definitely follow. you it's brilliant. but yeah i mean one concern is that uh. the um. uh policing of the superficial policing. this is a part of political correctness.

you know the insistence that you only. use certain words that you only talk in. a certain way. it's a phony kind of power because it. doesn't actually persuade people about. the issues that are at hand. instead it forces them underground in. their uh talk about these issues and and. that's. uh. that's problematic much better. that we have overt and explicit and. honest. disagreement to the extent that there. are disagreement. about things that are going on.

than uh that we have a superficial kind. of um. uh. new you know uh conversation that is uh. purged of. any real. biting. um uh you know discomforting. confrontation with with the realities of. the situation at hand and for black. americans i think one big part of the. reality of the situation at hand. is violent crime. violent crime you know a police officer. is afraid when he stops a car because.

it's an 18 year old driver in the. vehicle he's got dreadlocks he's a black. person the car doesn't have the right. license plate he's afraid to uh. deal with that person and one of the. reasons he's afraid to deal with them is. because a few who look like him are. behaving violently their violence is. usually perpetrated against others who. look like themselves but not always. and uh. that reality doesn't get changed by uh. you know uh telling a newspaper writer.

who writes about it that they are a. racist or enforcing within a newsroom. you can't cover that story in that way. because to do so would be racist that. that i i think. it's a monumental mistake. to. enforce. a closure on public discussion. based upon a calculation that if we. allow people if twitter allows this kind. of post. if the washington post runs this kind of.

story. etc. you end up with. a. superficial politeness. but. a subterranean seething resentment. that only makes matters worse. if i can get your comment maybe you have. ideas because it does seem that this. kind of attack. um works.

of. being called a racist. being called um. maybe not sexist but somebody you know. like we're going through a johnny depp. trial now right. uh it's a defamation trial and the. reason. it's a defamation trial is because. all it took is a single accusation of. johnny depp being. somebody who. sexually and physically abused uh ever. heard and all it took is just a single. article. no proof was given.

um. except the accusation itself and the. world believed it. so. it's effective. so how do you fight back. if it's so damn effective that you can. just call anybody racist. and it works. it's hard to wash off. it's it's a. uh you're. you know you're not proven in the court. of law or anything like that but. we we.

get those articles we get that label. and then the world moves on and just. assumes that person is racist so how how. do you do you have any ideas how to. fight back. no i don't frankly. um. just highlighted roseanne barr who made. this statement about valerie jarrett she. made some kind of ape like reference to. whatever. her show got cancelled and and and she's. a racist. so first of all pointing it out i. suppose is one of the most powerful. things that this the uh the hypocrisy of.

it. the you say it works i i guess you're. right it used to be that calling someone. a communist. yeah worked i mean going back to the. late 40s early 50s. red scare. mccarthyism. and whatnot and the person might have. belonged to a club that was pro-soviet. union in the 1930s when they were in. college they might have voted for the. socialist candidate henry wallace in the. presidential election of.

they might belong to the communist party. they they might think karl marx was uh. right about a whole lot of stuff about. capitalism and whatnot and they got. called a communist or a marxist. and it could have ruined their career. could have ruined their lives um. you know and a lot of people shut up. about it and it took and it went on for. a long time. uh and in a way in a way it kind of. still is going on i mean you call. somebody your marxist if you can make. that stick.

they're certainly not going to get. elected president of the united states. but i don't know about this um. i think. you know. i once read this book by. a german. political scientist called elizabeth. neula neumann. that was a. the writer's name elizabeth. noel neumann. the book was called the spiral of. silence. and the argument was. there can be some views some issues in.

society that get. uh defined in such a way that it's. inappropriate to hold those views. and as a result people who don't want to. be shamed who don't want to be. ostracized. don't express those views and when they. don't express them anybody holding the. view because they don't hear it said by. others think that they're the only one. or one of the few who hold the view and. so they don't want to be the only one. out there saying something so they keep. it to themselves so now.

this view this attitude in society. could be held by a large number of. people. but because of the. fear that if they were to express it. they'd be ostracized no one says it and. since no one is saying it the others who. hold the view don't know that they're. not alone. that they are not the only ones who hold. the view. and hence they keep silent that could be. an equilibrium it could be a. relatively stable situation in which the.

emperor has no clothes everybody can see. that this dude is naked. okay but everybody thinks that you know. i don't want to be the only one to say. it and so we all kind of. collaborate in this charade. of keeping the view to ourselves. then along comes. uh. an event that. uh somebody decides to defy. the consensus. and to speak out. it could be a little kid who in the.

story about the emperor has no clothes. doesn't realize that he's not supposed. to say that the emperor is naked. the thing about the kid in the story who. says that the emperor is naked it's not. that he's saying it. it's not even that other people hear him. saying it. it's that everybody knows that everybody. else heard him say it. okay. the kid who speaks out and says the. emperor has no clothes. creates a circumstance in which it's. common knowledge that the emperor has no.

clothes now common knowledge does not. just mean knowledge it does not even. mean widespread knowledge. it means comprehensive knowledge of. other person's knowledge of the thing. okay. so the spiral of silence is a. equilibrium that is susceptible to being. undermined. by a process of of a kind of cumulative. process a snowballing process of. revelation that you're not the only one. who thinks this way. okay.

it's fascinating to think that there's. an ocean of common knowledge. that we're waiting for the little kid to. wake us up to different little parts of. it that's correct and the little kid by. the way could be somebody like donald. trump only more effective than donald. trump. somebody who is smarter than donald. trump somebody who is shrewder. than donald trump. somebody who figures out that when colin. kaepernick takes a knee at a football. game. and says i'm not gonna stand for this.

president allegiance that. a vast number of people are uh. very unhappy about that somebody who. understands that when a black lives. matter. activist stands up with his bald fist. and says burn this bitch down about a. city in the united states of america. that a lot of people are upset about. that a lot of them. a person a shrewd politician a a shrewd. manager of public image.

could build on and create a circumstance. in which more and more people will feel. safe. to express that view and the more who. express it the safer those who have yet. to express it but who hold it. will feel in expressing it and to the. extent that the view is very widespread. but is kept under wraps. an explosion could happen and you can. look up tomorrow and have a very. different country than you had. today because the. conspiracy of silence the spiral of.

silence. ends up getting um unraveled uh by. somebody who steps out away from the. consensus dares to take the slings and. arrows of exposing themselves as a. naysayer but taps into a sentiment. that's uh that's very widespread and i. fear that with respect to. many racial issues. this is uh the situation that we. actually confront that it could unravel. in a very ugly way. but it can also unravel in. in a beautiful way so it's the.

depending there is a spiral of silence. you're saying and it could be because. speaking of children. uh charismatic children uh there's a guy. named elon musk. who might be a candidate for. such an unraveling. right you mentioned uh. the person that speaks up could be a. donald trump but in this current. uh situation that we live in like as. this week. uh elon has purchased twitter that's. what i hear. and it's pushing for.

um in all kinds of ways the increase of. free speech on twitter. and speaking about some of the. issues that we've been speaking about. here. with you but maybe in broader strokes. about just. the fact that you have to. it's okay to point out that the emperor. wears no clothes and to do so. from all sides in a way that everybody's. a little bit pissed off but not too much. what do you think about this whole.

effort of free speech. on in these public platforms um elon in. particular twitter your uh avid twitter. user. um but just public platforms for. discourse for us as a civilization. to figure stuff out. yeah well. the people on the left are very upset. about the possibility that elon musk. uh and twitter will be open to more open. to. uh provocative uh public speech that has.

heretofore been banned or suppressed. and um. i think they might be right to be. concerned that that could happen. i don't know enough about the technology. and about the market to really yeah i. mean. social media and whatnot it seems like. it's a complicated uh system of. interactions between people and who the. users are and so forth and so on. um i do know that that uh new york post.

uh story about hunter biden's laptop was. real news. and could have affected the outcome of. the election and it was suppressed. and that uh twitter had a role in. suppressing it. i do know. that the question of where the covet 19. virus originated and the role that a lab. leak account could have played in the. public processing of that event was real. news. and that it was suppressed by people who. were trying to control.

misinformation disinformation russian. disinformation campaigns and whatnot. uh so twitter has users i'm one of them. and it has a lot of users it's not as. big as facebook i gather it's not. but um it's important the ability to. construct. counter. platforms where people moving around and. whatnot. it's a kind of network dynamic that. maybe i should understand it better than. i do being a social scientist but i.

don't think anyone understands this yeah. even people include inside twitter. which is fascinating it's a monster. because of just the bandwidth of. messaging and you don't know who is a. bot and who is a human that's a. fascinating dynamic. and the whole and the viral nature of. negativity yeah. that all of those dynamics of course you. are probably the right person to. understand it from a. social scientist perspective from an. economics perspective but nobody really.

understands and it's fascinating within. that domain. how do you. allow for free speech not allow for free. speech encourage free speech defend free. speech. and at the same time. manage. millions of ongoing conversations. from. just. becoming in insanely. uh chaotic. sort of from from twitter perspective. they want people to be.

happy to grow. to actually have difficult critical. conversations. and they you know the problem with. humans is they think they know what that. is and they. um think they can label things as. misinformation as as counterproductive. for healthy conversations in quotes. and the problem is as we are learning. humans are not able to do that. effectively first of all power corrupts. there's something delicious about having.

the power to label something as. misinformation you do that once. for something that might be obviously. misinformation and then you start. getting greedy you start getting excited. it feels good it feels good to label. something as. misinformation or disinformation that. you just don't like. and over time especially if there's a. culture inside of a company that. leans a certain political direction or. leads in all the groups that we talked. about leans a certain way. they'll start to.

label labels misinformation things they. just don't like and there's. that power is delicious and it corrupts. you have to construct mechanisms like. the founding fathers did for somehow. preventing you. from allowing that power to get too. delicious. at least that's my perspective on what's. going on i'll just tell you personally. i'm excited about the prospect i'm glad. to see musk making the move that he's. making and we'll see what happens at. twitter and so forth. you look you're looking forward for the.

uh what did he say let's make twitter. more fun. i'm looking forward to uh. uh to the fun. you've talked about you are at a. prestigious university. brown university brown university. uh. and you've mentioned that universities. might be in trouble i think it's with. jordan but everywhere else that. barbarians are at the gate. who are the barbarians. at the gate. of the university so first of all.

what is to you beautiful. about the ideal of the university. in america. of academia. and what is a threat well you know. a university is dedicated to the pursuit. of truth. um and to. uh the education and nurturing of young. people as they enter into the pursuit of. truth. to doing research into teaching. in a.

environment of. free inquiry. and. civil discourse. so free inquiry means you go wherever. the evidence and your imagination may. lead you. and civil discourse means that you. exchange arguments with people when you. don't agree with them on behalf of. trying to get to the bottom of things. um i think the university is a. magnificent institution it is a. relatively modern. uh institution i mean.

last 500 years or so i mean there are. universities that are older than that. but. the great research universities of the. world and not only here in the united. states. uh are places where human ingenuity is. nurtured uh where new lot knowledge is. created. and where young people are. equipped to uh answer questions that are. open questions about uh our our. existence in the world that we live in. you can trace to the university much if.

not most of the. advances in technology and. resourcefulness and our understanding of. the origins of the species of the nature. of the universe cosmology et cetera. science uh the pursuit of uh humanistic. understanding the. nurturing of uh traditions of. inquisitive so that's the university. barbarians at the gates. the people who are trying to shut down. open inquiry at the university on behalf. of their particular view about things.

are a threat to what the university. stands for. and they should be resisted. so. if i'm. inquiring about the nature of human. intelligence. and i want to study differences between. human populations and their acquisition. of or their expression of. cognitive ability that's fair game it's. an open question if if i want to know. something about the nature of. gender. affiliation and identity and gender.

dysphoria and whatnot. that's fair game to study in the. university you can't shut that down. you shouldn't be able to. by saying. i have a particular position here i'm a. member of a particular identity group. suppose i want to study the uh history. of colonialism. and there's a narrative. on the progressive. side which is colonialism is about. europeans dominating and stealing or. whatever whatever and i happen to think. well there's another aspect to the story.

about colonialism too which is that it's. a mechanism for the diffusion. of the best in human civilization to. populations that were. significantly lagging behind with. respect to that it brought literacy. to the southern hemispheric populations. that were dominated in the process of. the colonizing thing it's complicated. i'm not taking that position by the way. i'm just saying somebody at a university. should be able. to take it up. and pursue it and engage in argument. with people about it i'm talking about.

race and ethnicity but this extends to a. a wide range of things suppose we're. talking about climate. and one person says the earth is. endangered because carbon. in global warming et cetera et cetera. and another person says no wait no wait. look at where we stand in the 21st. century we're vastly richer than our. ancestors just 250 years ago we have. much more knowledge about that and so. forth and so on 250 years from now. human ingenuity will have devised in. ways that we cannot even begin to.

anticipate. all manner of technological uh. means for managing the problem there's. no reason that we should shut down. industrial civilization today. because we fear the consequences of it. when in fact we are vastly richer than. our ancestors and those who come up two. centuries after us will be. vastly more effective at dealing with. problems than we are now. let's it's you know etc i'm not actually. making that argument i'm just saying.

the tendency to try to say oh no that. person is a climate denier they can't. pursue that area of inquiry uh is. against the spirit. of the university. uh i think the barbarians at the gates. has to do with the people who think they. know what the right side of history is. and try to make the university stand on. the right side of history. my position is you don't know what the. right side of history is.

and the purpose of a university is to. equip you to be able to think about. what is the right side of history what. is the solution to the dilemmas that. confront us. uh as human beings living um on this. planet with the billions that we are in. the condition that we are. so um the identitarians the ones who. want to make the university kowtow. to their particular understandings about. their own identity.

um we now have at the at brown. university and various other places we. don't do columbus day anymore we do. indigenous people's day. when that day comes up in october. we don't talk about columbus they're. taking down statues of columbus all. across the country and so forth and so. on. i'm not arguing anything here other than. that. the. latter-day position. by pox.

black indigenous and other people of. color the latter day position that the. university has to reflect a particular. sensibility about these identity. questions. i think it's a threat to the integrity. of the enterprise i don't think you're. overstating it i. i tend to be just for my limited. knowledge of. mit but perhaps it applies broadly. i think the beauty of the university. broadly speaking is the faculty and the.

students. and. the problem arises. from the overreach. of a. overgrowing administration. that gives. again. thinks that it knows enough to make. rules and conclusions based on a set of. beliefs. and then based on that empowers a. certain small selection of students.

to be the sort of voices of activism. of a particular idea. and not i think activism is beautiful. but not just activism but anybody that. disagrees is shut down. and that that i think the the the blame. lies with the administration so i think. the solution is in lessening just like. the solution with too big of a. government too big of a bureaucracy is. there needs to be. a. uh redistribution of power to what makes.

universities beautiful which is the. old students and the young students old. students being. professors. so. the scholars the curious minds the. people that are in this whole thing. to explore the world to be curious about. it. on a salary that's probably way too low. for the thing they're doing that's. that's the that's the whole point and. then the administration. just gets in the way.

and um. is the source of this kind of they i. would say that. in your beautiful phrasing i will say. the administration is the barbarians at. the gate so um the solution is. smaller bureaucracies smaller. administrations i have to on this point. you had this conversation you put on. yourself stack. with jordan uh jordan peterson. about cognitive inequality i think it's. titled wrestling with cognitive. inequality. this particular topic of.

just iq differences between groups. why is this. why is it so dangerous to talk about. why this particular topic. well it's like you're calling black. people inferior it's like you're saying. they're genetically inferior that's what. people are saying it's like you're. rationalizing the disparity of outcomes. by reference to the. intrinsic inferiority of black people if. you if you say cognitive ability matters. for social outcomes if you say cognitive.

ability exists. people really are different in terms of. their intellectual functioning and if. you say cognitive ability differences. are. are substantial between racially defined. populations. the sum of that there is cognitive. ability it matters and the difference by. race is the conclusion. that outcome differences by race are in. part due to natural differences between. the populations people find that to be. completely offensive and unacceptable so.

that's what i think is going on. can you still man that case. that we should be careful doing that. kind of research. so. this has to do with research. it's like uh the nazis used. nietzsche. in their propaganda. right is you can use white supremacists. could use. conclusions. um cherry-pick conclusions of studies.

to uh to push their uh to push their. agenda can you steal man the case that. we should be careful yeah i could do it. at three levels one is. what do we mean by cognitive ability so. there's many different kinds of. intelligence a person might say. how good are iq tests at measuring. other kinds of human capacities that are. pertinent to. success in life like temperament. like emotional intelligence and so on so. intelligence is not a one-dimensional.

thing measured by g. the. cognitive psychologists talk about g the. general intelligence factor which is a. statistical construction. it's a factor analytic uh resolution of. the. correlation. across individuals in their performance. on a battery a different kind of test. and they. use that to. to define a general factor of. intelligence and a person could say. that is a very narrow view of what human.

mental capacities actually are. and that uh it's much better to think. about. multi-dimensional measures of human. mental functioning rather than a single. cognitive ability measure so-called iq. which is a narrow. construction. that doesn't capture all of the. subtle nuance of human difference in. functioning functioning is not just the.

ability to. recite backwards a sequence of numbers i. say eight seven nine five three two you. say two three five seven eight nine it's. not just that intelligence is. a. complex. uh management of many different. dimensions of human performance. including. uh things like being able to stick with. a task and and not give up. things like being able to discipline and. control your impulses so as to remain.

focused and so forth. um that could be one dimension i could. start by questioning the very foundation. of the argument. for racial differences in. cognitive ability by saying that your. measure of cognitive ability is. flawed. i could go to a higher level i could say. what we're really interested in. is. social outcomes and the question of what. factors. influence social outcomes extends well.

beyond mental ability to many other. things so here's an example. visual acuity. how well do you see. you're not wearing glasses i am. visual acuity. varies between human beings some people. see better than other people do. visual acuity can be measured. i can put you at the chart and you can. can you identify and read that bottom. line in small print or not so we can.

measure visual acuity and it varies. between human beings. visual acuity is partly genetic. i think that's undoubtedly true. we inherit genes that influence whether. or not we are nearsighted or farsighted. or astigmatic or whatever. so visual acuity differs between people. and can be measured and is under genetic. control. on the other hand. corrective lenses. allow for us to level the playing field. between people who are differently.

endowed in terms of visual acuity. likewise social outcomes are what we're. really interested in employment earnings. whether or not they're law abiding how. do they conduct themselves and their. families and so forth amongst. individuals. yes social outcomes are influenced by. so-called cognitive ability but they're. influenced by many other things as well. if they can if there are interventions. that can be undertaken in society that. level the playing field between people. who have different natural endowments.

cognitive ability the fact that people. or groups differ in cognitive ability. becomes less significant just like it's. less significant that people differ with. respect to how well they see when. corrective lenses allow. for the leveling of that playing field. there are in fact interventions. educational interventions early. childhood interventions that have been. shown to level the playing field to. create better life outcomes for people. even if they. happen to be endowed with low.

intelligence so a second level. of arguing against this whole program of. research on human differences and. intelligence is to observe that yes. human beings and perhaps racially. defined groups may differ on the average. in intellectual endowment but there well. may be social interventions that level. the playing field whether it's in. education or in other kinds of. programmatic interventions especially. for the poor. a final level of argument is the one. that you alluded to which is that if you.

talk like this you're going to encourage. a kind of politics which is very ugly. and it's best. to frame the discussion. in ways that don't put emphasis on. uh racially defined natural differences. between populations. uh that's a argument that i am myself. personally. uh conflicted about. on the one hand i think. you know. those people are just stupid. it is uh racist okay.

on the other hand i think. the calculation we shouldn't do this. kind of research suppose i'm at the. national science foundation a research. team submits a proposal the proposal. proposes to undertake a study the study. would explore the extent to which. people and racial groups differ with. respect to their intellectual. performance and how that's influenced by. their genetic and environmental. interaction and i decide not to fund the. study based on a political calculation.

that the subject is too sensitive. and if you explore that subject you. might get the wrong answer and if you. get the wrong answer the white. supremacist will be encouraged. well. that is presuming before the research is. done. that i know the outcome of the research. and that i can calculate what the. political consequence of the research. outcome is going to be. that's that's assuming the thing before. you even know what the thing actually is. it's a kind of omniscience it presumes.

that you as the master of the universe. can tell people what it is that people. are being treated like children what it. is that they're capable of knowing and. what it is that they're not capable of. knowing it would be like someone saying. to einstein. i don't know about that special. relativity theory you know it could well. lead to. the development of technologies that. would allow nuclear weapons and someone. saying that oppenheimer who is a. physicist overseeing the manhattan. project where the u.s developed a.

nuclear weapons capacity. don't carry out that project. because. the results of acquiring that knowledge. may be more than we can. deal with or someone saying to someone. doing biomedical research who's. interested in exploring. uh the nature of the human genome don't. carry out that experiment that cloning. uh undertaking whatever because the. consequences could be. uh deleterious well the consequences. could be deleterious the consequences. could also be the cure of cancer the.

consequences could also be being able to. generate electric power without. producing carbon effluent uh so. who are you to tell me who you being the. person in the political position to. control the research. what the consequence of doing the. research is i i think. i don't want to cede. that kind of power to politicians. over the course of of human inquiry so. yes i would want there to be regulations. governing the use of.

biologically sensitive and potentially. dangerous. pathogens in a lab in wuhan. or anyplace else i would i would not. want to simply leave that to laissez. faire. on the other hand i think that the. tendency to try to shut down inquiry. on behalf of supposed adverse political. consequences is the road to ignorance. and uh impoverishment at the end of the. day for humankind denying ourselves the.

potential benefits of that kind of. inquiry i think we need to take our. chances with inquiry rather than to try. to control it and i feel that way about. the exploration of human intelligence. as much as anything else so you've asked. me to steel man the case against. research on iq of the sort that charles. murray is famous for popularizing and. i've said hey. your measure of intelligence is single. dimensional and it ought to be. multi-dimensional. i've said b. the consequences of people's differing.

in intelligence depends not only on the. natural endowments of the people but. also on the. environment and the potential for. intervening in that environment. environment through one or another kind. of instrument as the metaphorical. example of the use of corrective lenses. to level the playing field between. people with different visual acuity. indicates but finally i've said. yes. research on racial differences in iq can.

foster. political beliefs that we would regard. to be. um. obnoxious. on the other hand. to presume that what we don't know yet. and might find out from the research is. going to be harmful is to assume a kind. of. presumption or of knowing what the. outcome of unknown processes might be. which we ought to be very slow to. embrace. because if we had done so in the past we. wouldn't have nuclear power uh there's a.

lot of things that we wouldn't know i. mean what were people saying about. darwin and uh exploration of the. evolution and origin of the species they. were afraid that it was gonna in effect. disprove the uh religious based accounts. of you know. what were they saying about copernicus. and et cetera et cetera so you know. that was a masterful. layering of uh quote wrestling with the. cognitive inequality he dragged in. nuclear research. uh uh copernicus darwin biomedical.

research with genetics even covet and. and um. uh the lab leak i mean this that was. that's. that was just fun to listen to okay okay. let me ask you about your politics uh so. you've recently said that you're a. conservative leaning. i mean maybe that's a day-to-day thing. um maybe you can push back but. uh so you have somebody like your friend. john mcwhorter yeah uh who we could say. is uh on your left yeah to the left of.

you and then you have somebody like um. uh. thomas sold who. maybe is un. to the right of you yeah probably uh and. yet there's a lot of overlap between the. three of you right so to what degree. does politics affect. your view on race. in america. and maybe to what degree does your. uh view on race affect your politics. okay and that for people who don't know.

has shifted over time. you've been on quite a roller coaster. as anybody who thinks about the world. should be. well. let's begin with the fact that i. was trained as an economist. in a tradition of. what many people would call. neoliberalism i was trained at mit which. was not. a right-wing place by any means. but it was a place.

where. you learned about markets. and about the benefits of. capitalism as a way of organizing. society. the virtues of free enterprise. the fact that the pursuit of profit was. not necessarily a bad thing but it well. might be. the road to prosperity and to economic. growth the idea that private property. and individuals seeking to acquire and. succeeding in acquiring wealth.

did create inequality but it also. created opportunity and it also expanded. our knowledge and our control over of. the physical environment which were. embedded in etc. um. so we were not marxist. at mit although we did read marks i mean. those of us who are intellectually. curious you read marx marx was an. important. figure in the history of the west and i. think mark should be read and capital. three volumes etc. uh alienation of labor uh and whatnot.

the implications of modernization of the. advent of industrial capitalism et. cetera that that kind of dynamic. uh deserves to be studied and to come at. it in a critical way. uh. informed by the intellectual inheritance. of marx and marxism i think that's a. part of a full education in social. philosophy and and uh economic analysis. that a open-minded person ought to.

acquaint themselves with but at the end. of the day i think that the. uh. i think that the free marketeers have. the better of it. i think the story of the 20th century as. far as economic development is concerned. reflects that i think that the. experiments where. centralized control over economic. decisions. was the order of the day. failed. i think that the. fact of the 21st century rise of china.

as a force. has a lot to do with the spread of in. effect. capitalist oriented modes of entering. economic exchange freeing up prices. markets property uh and so forth. although obviously it's a complicated. political economic system i'm talking. about china. um but uh i think that the uh story of. the 20th century and the hope for the. 21st century is that. prosperity is enhanced through.

the. free exchange of goods and the pursuit. and acquisition of property. uh by people in a more or less. capitalist oriented. uh. a system that that's you know that's the. view that i hold i guess that makes me a. conservative i don't know i want to say. that's not to the exclusion. of a social safety net i'm not saying. that old people.

in an ideal social system would be left. to their own devices regardless of. whether or not they had saved for their. retirement i'm not saying that. uh the ideal. of extending decent. access to health care to all people. regardless of whether or not they can. afford it. decent access to education to people. regardless of whether or not they can. afford it is standing in the way of. prosperity i don't believe that i think. the mixed economies that we see in. northern europe and in north america.

uh are. a balancing. of the virtues of free enterprise. property and the pursuit of wealth on. the one hand. against the. the needs to have a decent society in. which people who fall between the cracks. nevertheless are. bolstered through a sense of social. solidarity that is accommodated by our. common membership within a single. nation state which is why i think. nationalism is important and it's why i. think borders are important because.

without a coherent. polity. who can. uh see themselves as in a common. situation and. agree through their politics to support. each other to some extent you can't. sustain a safety net you cannot you. cannot have a social safety net for a. global population you can only have a. social safety net for a bounded. population who have a sense of common. membership.

in. an ongoing political enterprise which. they pay their dues through their taxes. in order to sustain it there's a. balancing that has to go on so that's. the first thing that i would say about. my politics. i'm a neo-liberal economist i believe in. markets i believe in prices i believe in. profit. corporations are not an incarnation of. evil. corporations are a legal nexus through. which. production gets organized in which you. solicit the cooperation of workers of.

people who provide capital of people who. provide raw materials and input of. customers uh and so on and that. functionality. allows for the production of goods and. their distribution. and the earning of income and its. distribution which at the end of the day. is the foundation of our prosperity. corporations are people too mitt romney. got in trouble for saying that in 2012. but corporations are nothing but illegal. fiction the corporation is not a person.

as such. but the nexus of contracts and. relationships amongst the stakeholders. who intersect in the. context of the corporation is the way in. which we organize the massively complex. set of activities that are necessary in. order to produce. economic. benefits in order to feed people in. order to. have everybody with a cell phone in. their pocket in order to be able to. travel from one side of a continent to. another on a device that is with almost.

absolute certainty going to safely take. off. in land and in order to be able to build. cities and it's etc but do the markets. the ideal of the market collide with the. ideal of all men are created equal. the identity the struggle that we've. been talking about of. of what it means to sort of empower. humans that make up this great country. do they collide and where do they. collide well markets are going to. produce inequality. and.

all men being equal is a statement about. the intrinsic worth of people. not about the situation that will come. about when people interact with each. other through markets because people are. actually different. uh and because there are factors that. are beyond anybody's control called luck. and chance that you know i you and i. both invest. uh it looked our priority like your. investment and my investment were. equally likely to succeed but as a. matter of fact ex post facto your. investment succeeds my investment. doesn't succeed. i don't have wealth and you have wealth.

that is an inevitable consequence of a. environment in which both of us are free. to make our investment choices. and where the consequences of investment. depend in part upon. random circumstances of which no one has. control. but you asked me about my politics and i. was just trying to lay down a foundation. by saying i begin. as an economist. in the tradition of uh liberalism adam. smith and so forth john maynard keynes. for that matter and so forth. uh that um.

milton friedman and so forth that uh. paul samuelson bob solo. uh james tobin uh. and so forth uh thomas soul yes. uh that appreciates property. the virtues of free. enterprise uh the. set of institutions that allow for. a security of contract a rule of law. things of this kind. so that's one thing to say about my.

politics. another thing to say about my politics. and you're right i've moved around. is that you know i began south side of. chicago black kid i was a liberal. democrat. um. i. encountered uh the economic curriculum. at the mit and i i became trained in. economics in the tradition that i've. just described. and i encountered uh also. the reagan revolution this is the late. 70s and early 80s.

these are big debates about. economic policy and so on. um and uh i found a lot to admire uh in. the supply ciders. uh the people were saying you know let's. get the government out of the way the. people who are worried about national. debt which is a lot more now than it was. then. the people were worried that the welfare. state could be too big that the. incentives of transfer programs could be. counterproductive that you had a war on. poverty and we did have a war on poverty. and poverty won and there's a lot of.

evidence that the war on poverty was. lost by the people who were trying to. quote unquote eradicate poverty in our. time. um. that. incentives really do matter and that the. state. which is driven by politics is often. unresponsive to the dictates of. incentives whereas markets. eliminate people who are inefficient who. are not cognizant of the consequences of. incentives because they can't cover. their bottom line and they won't persist.

for very long if they can't cover their. bottom line they're forced to respond to. the realities of differences in costs. and benefits and so forth in a way that. governments can cover because they have. their hand in our pocket they can cover. their losses and they can make accounts. balance notwithstanding their mistakes. because they can take my property by. fiat. by the power of the state the tax. collector comes if i don't pay he seizes. my holdings and. they can carry on in that way they need. the corrective influence of markets in.

order to be responsive to the realities. of life i mean i may not like it. that uh prices are. telling me that something that i want to. do is infeasible i may not like it but. what the prices are telling me is that. the costs of doing it. exceed the benefits to be derived from. doing it and if i persist in doing it. notwithstanding that i'm going to run. losses and those losses will accumulate. and the net effect of that over an. entire society.

is stagnation. and ultimate attenuation of the economic. benefits that might be available with. people again i think if you look at the. developing world. in the post-colonial period the second. half of the 20th century that's exactly. what you see. planning doesn't work centralized. control over resource allocation doesn't. work okay so i became more conservative. in that respect but i also and this has. to do with race. lost the faith.

in. the. posture. that uh beca what became of the civil. rights movement i mean the civil rights. movement you quote king 1963 the civil. rights movement starts out as. um. we want equal membership in the polity. um but it becomes. uh. a a a. a. systematized. a cover. i'm going to argue.

for deficiencies that are uh. discernible within black american. society which only we could correct. that's a very controversial statement. uh i i make it with trepidation i i. don't take any pleasure in saying it. but here's what i'm talking about. so i'm talking about the family. so the family. is a matter. internal. to the community about how men and women.

relate to each other. and engage in social reproduction child. bearing. uh the standing up of households. the context within which children are. developed are maturing and so forth and. so on so the african-american family. is in trouble i think i can demonstrate. that by reference to. high rates of marital dissolution. uh. by high rates of birth to uh out of. wedlock and so forth. um.

you can't even say that the. african-american family is in trouble. violence. homicide is the order of magnitude more. prevalent amongst african americans than. it is in the society as a whole. this is behavior it's behavior of our. people i speak of black people of course. we're not the only people in society for. whom violence is an issue it's an order. of magnitude. more prevalent. uh in our communities i'm talking about. schooling and school failure.

so we have affirmative action as a cover. it's a band-aid. on differences in the development of. intellectual performance which is only. partly a consequence of the natural. intelligence of people and largely a. consequence of how people spend their. time what they value. how they discipline themselves what they. do with their. opportunities how parents raise their. children what peer groups value and. things of this kind the asian students. who are scoring off the charts on these.

exams. are doing it not because they're. intrinsically more intelligent to other. people but because they work harder. because their parents are more insistent. on focusing on their intellectual. performance because they're disciplined. uh because of the way that they devote. their time and their resources to. uh equipping their children to function. in the 21st century this is what i. believe i think it's demonstrably the. case. and it is a factor in racial disparity.

the way that the civil rights movement. has evolved under the wing of the. democratic party. into an organized appalachia. uh of for the failures of african. americans to seize the opportunities. that exist for us now in the 21st. century but did not exist. in the first half of the 20th century. the way in which the civil rights. movement has become. an avoidance mechanism. for us not taking we african-americans. responsibly this is glenn lowry not.

everybody's going to agree with it. uh is part of what makes me. a conservative i am tired of the. bellyaching i'm tired of the excuse me. white supremacy. uh it is in my mind. a joke uh i lament the fact that that. kind of rhetoric. is so seductively. attractive to african americans and so. widely adopted by others. and. as i am fond of saying at the end of the.

day nobody is coming to save us. i mean. higher education. mit caltech stanford. the where the future is happening. that is about mastery over the. achievements of human civilization. such as they manifest themselves in the. 21st century there's no substitute for. actually acquiring mastery. over the material there's no substitute. for that.

to be. uh patronized. to have the standards lower they want to. get rid of the test. they want to tell african americans uh. pat us on the head. uh we're gonna have a separate program. for you we're gonna give you a side door. that you can come into that doesn't make. us any smarter. it doesn't make us any more creative. um and it doesn't make us any more fit. for the actual competition that's. unfolding before us now. you want to be 10 of the population.

that's carried along for the next 100. years you want to be. uh. a ward of the state in the late 21st. century you go ahead because the chinese. are coming. you're not going to hold them back the. world is being remade every decade by. new ways of seeing and new ways of doing. if you don't get on board with the. dynamic advancement of the civilization. in which we are embedded you're going to. end up being dependent on other people. to look kindly upon you in this story.

that you've got this uh bellyache. this excuse my ancestors were slaves. it's only gonna. work. for so long. so that's that makes me i suppose a kind. of conservatives i hate. affirmative action i don't just disagree. with it i don't just think it's against. the 14th amendment i hate it. the hatred comes from an understanding. that it is a band-aid that is a.

substitute for the actual development. over the capacities of our people to. compete. i'd much rather be in the position. of having them try to keep me out. because i'm so damn good like they're. doing with the asians. then having them have to beg the supreme. court to allow for a special. dispensation on my behalf because they. need. diversity and inclusion and belonging. it's not just diversity it's not just. diversity and inclusion there's. diversity and inclusion and belonging.

i'm whining because i feel like i don't. belong. that's a position of weakness it's. pathetic. uh and it's only political correctness. that keeps people who can see this and. believe me a lot of people can see it. from saying so out loud. so you want. the black american community to. represent strength. correct and i want us to deal with what. it is that we have to deal with in order. to be able to. project strength.

uh in in an increasingly competitive. world. let me ask you. i know you said you're angry. um. or dislike affirmative action let me ask. you. about something that even to my ear cut. wrong um now i'm relatively apolitical. so. president biden when he was running for. president gave a campaign. promise that he will nominate a black.

woman to the u.s supreme court saying. quote. the person i will nominate will be. someone with extraordinary. qualifications character experience and. integrity. first sentence second sentence and that. person will be the first black woman. ever nominated to the united states. supreme court. do you wish he only said the first. sentence and not the second. yes i wish that he had only said the. first sentence. even if his intention was to do what he.

said he was going to do in the second. sentence yes in other words i wish that. he had simply said. if i have the opportunity to nominate. someone to the supreme court it's going. to be a superbly qualified person to. carry out that position and he might. have kept to himself his intention. to name an african-american woman to. that position and then gone ahead and. named an african-american woman to that. position and i'm sure that katanji. brown jackson. i don't doubt that she's exceptionally. qualified she has a distinguished career. she served as a judge on the d.c circuit.

court of appeals she's a graduate at. harvard law school she has a background. you do not have to be. a. world-class constitutional legal scholar. to get onto the united states supreme. court a lot of members of the united. states supreme court have had different. kinds of. legal careers before they were elevated. to that position. earl warren of the famed warren court of. the 1950s and 60s was a politician. as well as a leading jurors and whatnot.

i mean many kind of people in the u.s. supreme court i have no doubt. that judge. katanji brown jackson is a qualified. member to be on the supreme court. i wish that biden had not done what he. did. he could have just appointed a black. woman. by saying that he was limiting his. considerations to black women and what. are black women as a percentage of all. potential appointees to the supreme. court. three percent. four percent i don't know we could look. the number up. uh the.

by saying that he puts an asterisk on. the appointment but it's worse than that. because she will live down the asterisk. if a person is inclined to to do that. she will have the opportunity to show. through her performance uh exactly what. kind of juror she is just as justice. clarence thomas has shown through his. performance. that he was qualified and more than. qualified to be on the. united states supreme court. what i disliked was the pandering.

he was seeking votes from black people. by pandering to us. and he's treating us like children. why should i care what color the person. is who's on the united states supreme. court what i should care about is what. kind of. opinions they're going to write when. they're on the united do i suppose that. being a black woman means that you're. going to write different kind of. opinions on others well. perhaps. perhaps. that kind of identity politics at the.

highest level of american legal. uh establishment. is something that rubs me very much the. wrong way. uh what i should care about is. uh the nature and the future of the law. i mean i'm actually struck by this. because. uh the court is conservative. it has six conservative members on it. and it has three liberal members on it. um. and uh if i were and i'm not a liberal.

democrat the highest concern that i. would have about an appointment to the. supreme court is. is this a person. who is going to be effective in. advocating my liberal views within the. highest council of american law. now the fact that that person is a woman. or as a black person is way down the. list. of the things that i would think are. important. to. the kinds of opinions that they're going. to write. so i mean i think uh joe biden.

this is just a piece of a larger. political strategy. to cobble together a coalition that'll. be successful at the polls. in sustaining democrats uh jim crow 2.0. this whole characterization of the uh. conflict. in the states about election security. and voting rights is another part. of that strategy he is pandering.

to black voters he is. trying to frighten us. thinking that if the republicans win our. rights will be taken away. uh and uh. i i think it. is a. infantilization of african-american. politics i i think. black people are not to be as concerned. about the color of the skin of a person. who is serving in government as they are. about the content of their character. and the. focus of their of their political and.

ideological orientation. which for me. would be center or even center right. but that's me. and it should not have a significant. impact nevertheless he said she can. overcome the asterisks but to me it was. deeply disrespectful that. um anyone would give an extra asterisk. stuff to overcome he didn't have to say. it all he had to do was do it if he. wanted to put a black woman on the court. they could just go ahead and done it the. reason he said it is because he wanted. black people to vote for him by saying.

it. and i'm saying that treats us like we're. children uh you know it's not a. political statement i just thought as a. leader that was. not. um those that was kind of disgusting. um let me ask you about thomas solo you. mentioned him he's. a colleague and somebody who's an. influence. what. uh in the space of ideas. so what broadly. what impact has he had. on your ideas. and um how do you think he shaped the.

landscape of ideas in our culture in. general i think thomas soule is in his. 90s now he's been around for a long time. he's still got it he's still going at it. he's still going at the books continue. to come out i think he's a great man. um i think thomas soule. regardless of his race he's black. is one of the. 100. most significant economists of the 20th. century. he has chosen as his subject a. substantial part of his subject subject.

to investigate. the deep causes and consequences of. racial disparity of one kind or another. he's written. fundamental books about that. many of them he's a social philosopher. he is a economic historian. he is a. combatant in the conflict of ideas. around how to think about society and. this beyond racial differences although.

race has been a big part of what he's. written about he's been critical of. affirmative action and he didn't just. stand back and wag his finger he got. busy looking at the consequences of. affirmative action in societies all. around the world and he's written books. about that. he's been critical of the. narrative about civil rights and racial. inequality he believes in small. government he doesn't think. that efforts to redistribute income have. proved to be the solution to the problem. of. racial disparity.

tom has not been honored by the. committee that hands out nobel. recognition in economic science and. probably won't be because he's. controversial and i reckon that that. committee. would be low to encourage the blowback. that they would be sure to receive if. they were to take a. controversial and politically. uh uh. focused and expressive black. conservative and honor in that way so i. think another reason is that tom as a. methodological methodological matter.

is not especially quantitative he pays. attention to data but he doesn't do. statistical analysis and he doesn't do. modeling. so from a methodological point of view. he's not a cutting edge kind of. mathematically sophisticated kind of. quantitatively. statistically oriented but he does. descriptive stuff he writes in a style. that is much more like a social. historian than it is like a like a.

mathematically trained analytical. economist on the other hand he is an. economist in the chicago school with. milton friedman and george stickler. prominent amongst his teachers who. takes price theory. which is the. analysis of the interplay of market. forces. uh mindful of incentives. and so on uh to you know. uh implement the basic insights from uh.

economic science you know there is no. free lunch i mean there's always going. to be a cost anything that you do and so. on people respond to incentives demand. curve slope downward um you know. competition tends to work best when. people are free to enter and not and. so on i mean uh that kind of thing but. tom is also a social historian and. uh philosopher in the tradition of a. friedrich phone hayek. uh one of tom's books i deeply admire. knowledge and decisions is an extension.

of the haiki and arguments uh about uh. the. limits of central planning and. whatnot. so. i think tom seoul thomas soule. african-american. born as i understand it in louisiana. raised in new york city. uh graduate of harvard college. a military veteran. um a phd in economics from the. university of chicago. um a black conservative social scientist.

of a very high stature i think he's a. great man and one of the great. intellectuals of the 20th century and. you're saying. implicitly uh deserves a nobel prize. yeah. i i do think so i mean. uh hayek was awarded by the committee uh. gunnar maridol uh the swedish uh. economist wrote about economic. development wrote a famous. two-volume work an american dilemma. about the status of blackstone i mean i. think tom.

could be. uh you know put in that company very. easily without any difficulty i agree. daniel kahneman. them so it doesn't have to be new. psychologists he's not an economist yeah. um uh eleanor ostrom uh the political. scientist who was honored in a joint. prize given to her and oliver williamson. uh 15 years ago or so. uh he he could be put in that company. really quite easily. let me ask you you mentioned obama in. this. in the very beginning that we were.

talking about. how did it feel. uh that seems like forever ago that in. 2008 barack obama became president now. at that time. perhaps you. identify as conservative already. uh but how did so politics aside. just in general um. how did it feel. that in 150 years where this country has.

come along. well yeah i i didn't identify in 2008 as. a conservative to the same extent that i. do today. uh i was i was kind of in transition yet. again. i was excited by the obama candidacy. at first i was skeptical. because after all he's not black. the man's father is a kenyan and the. man's mother. is a white uh american and uh he.

identifies as black. i find it interesting that the first. black president of the united states and. i could have put inverted commas around. black and the first black vice president. of the united states. neither of them descend from american. slaves. kamala harris's father is of african. ancestry in part. he's a jamaican immigrant and her mother. is an indian. immigrant she was kamala harris.

raised up largely in. canada. though born in the united states. um. barack obama is. as i've said. of mixed ancestry and neither of his. parents. are the descendants of uh. of uh american descendants of african. slaves but. blackness is.

flexible it's it's it's uh. something that you can put on or you can. take off to a certain degree for some. people and. so be it. i was excited. our time has come. hope and change. we are the ones we've been waiting for. these are slogans from 2008. i can't believe i bought that crap. oh interesting let me push back here.

you talked about it's i mean to me a jew. is a jew. skin color. is skin color yeah. i mean. he. barack obama is black. okay when it matters. when you're talking to a white. supremacist yeah when you're talking to. when you. if you're a slave owner he's black just. like you said. when hitler comes around.

a jew is a jew it doesn't matter how you. identify it doesn't matter what. so in that sense. don't you think that. barack obama is black in the most. powerful of ways. which is designating how far. the mlk the dr king vision. oh sure and look i i said it a little. bit tongue-in-cheek yes yes of course. but i think obama. has been very careful about. manufacturing a kind of public persona.

that is intended to. um. position him in the most effective way. you mean like every politician yeah like. every politician sure and that the. racial identity piece is an aspect of. that. i mean. anything i say here would only be. speculation because i have no facts. about the personal history of barack. obama and i accept barack hussein obama. as hillary clinton once said i take him. at his word.

uh about uh. whatever she was talking about. uh well was he a christian i think is. what the the question was and uh you. know there was some right-wing attack on. obama for. you know having been raised in for some. years in the philippines and um all of. that or indonesia i beg your pardon in. indonesia and. his stepfather and all of that but uh. she took him at his word and i take him. at his word. about his racial identity no but you. were captivated by the power of his.

words and you regret to the degree you. were captivated well i mean i think in. retrospect that whole campaign looks. like a pie in the sky kind of. uh. fairy tale. we are the ones we've been waiting for. i can't quote exactly that speech that. he gave in grant park in chicago when he. was announced as the winner of the. election. but. today is the day that the rise of the. ocean stopper words to this effect i. mean. uh those who doubted that uh we could do.

it that tonight is your answer this was. going to be a new day it was going to be. a new regime well it wasn't a new day. and it wasn't a new regime it was. american politics more or less as usual. barack obama turns out not to be the. messiah maybe there should be no. surprise in that. race relations got set back during. obama's tenure. my beef with obama. is that. you okay you're black you say you're. black you're black. you got elected now we have a black.

president. a black president. you can do stuff that nobody else could. do. you're a black president. you could tell the people burning down. the city. to get their butts back in their houses. and to stop it. you know you could tell the race. hustlers. the al sharptons of the world. not only has our time come for those who. supported my my campaign your time is.

over for those who want to uh carry on. uh. a advocacy. rooted in racial grievance. the election of myself to this highest. office proves that the institution of. the state are legitimate and open. to all comers. i think. barack obama when the s-h-i-t hit the. fan. if i had a son he looked like trayvon i. deeply regret that he said that he's.

president of the united states the color. of his skin and the color of trayvon's. skin. the correlation between those two things. if i had a son he looked like trayvon. now he says. when he said it. he only meant to sympathize with the. parents. but in fact when he said it from the. highest office in the land. and then sent his attorney general eric. holder out to enforce this narrative. he doubled down on a racial narrative. that i think is actually false. i think the.

story that systemic racism in america as. reflected in policing that terrorizes. black people because of the color of the. skin. is demonstrably false. i think that the central threat. to black lives. is violent crime. perpetrated largely by black people. against other black people i think there. is such a thing as police brutality and. i think there are reasons to have. regulations of police but i think it is. a second order issue.

in terms of the. quality of life. of african americans i think obama could. have told the people who after freddie. gray died in police custody in a van in. baltimore and who. undertook to burn that city down. to get their asses off the street and go. back to their apartments to stop it i. think he could have said in the. aftermath of michael brown being shot. dead by darren wilson in ferguson. missouri and there was a. grand jury deliberation that elected not.

to indict officer wilson and people took. the streets in that city and stood on. top of vehicles and so forth and so on. he could have told them. we don't mob around courthouses in this. country we respect the rule of law. get your butts off the streets. and back into your apartments he didn't. do that. uh so. to push back a little bit yeah good push. back. i think you're asking. barack obama the first.

black president of the united states to. do the thing that. i think should be done by the second. black president of the united states i. think his very example given the color. of his skin. uh was the most powerful thing. and um actually. doing some of these hard thomas soul. type of glen lowry type of. strong words about race. it may be too much to ask given the. nature of modern day politics.

he is a politician he is a politician he. needs to get elected he needed to get. re-elected. yeah um it was in his second term where. most of what i'm talking about happened. so he wasn't facing further election but. obama was what 46 or 47 when he was. inaugurated he served for eight years so. he's in his mid 50s he's got another. half century or 40 years of life god. willing. his post-presidency. i think was what was primarily on his.

mind not getting elected to anything but. being enshrined in a certain way and the. the persona. that he is now embodying. uh which depends upon. um a racial narrative that i and thomas. soul and others object to. i think was very much in the forefront. of his mind when he made decisions as. the chief executive officer of the. country. uh that we've all now uh. have to live with yeah but the fact is.

he opened the door in a way that hasn't. been done in the history. of of of this the united states. that. i don't see there being a. uh even a significant discussion when an. uh. an african-american a black man or a. black woman runs for president maybe a. black man let's say because there still. hasn't been a woman president i just see. that that. broke open the possibility of that.

that's not even a discussion. and that that example by itself i mean. to me. the role of the president isn't just. policy it's to inspire it's to do the. um yeah. it's to do the dr king thing which is i. have a dream and. barack obama is an example of somebody. that could give one hell of a speech it. got you. to believe. obama is a smooth operator without any. question he's a master of his craft he. you know he did the impossible i mean he.

beat hillary clinton in that primary. fight. um and uh he beat john mccain in that. general election. and hats off to him and moreover he. remains a a. iconic figure in american culture i. don't think there's any doubt about that. uh let me just mention. clarence thomas is also black. clarence thomas has a story. that is vivid and inspiring. just like obama's story he overcome. obstacles just like obama did i mean.

extreme poverty and so forth and so on. clarence thomas has served. longer than any other. member of the united states supreme. court he is. one of nine justices. and it's three equal branches of. government so clarence thomas by my. arithmetic personifies 127th. of the american state. uh he is an. iconic figure. his example.

should be an inspiration to americans of. all races but especially of black. american youngsters he happens to be. conservative. he's very conservative. so fucking what. he he too deserves to be in that. pantheon he is not. by the custodians of american education. clarence thomas's name is not on that. many schools barack obama's name will be. on many of them i'm not equating them. they're different people the offices are. very different. but the same logic that you just used to.

extol the significance of barack obama's. ascendancy. could and should be applied to clarence. thomas in my opinion. yes but you know it's. the office but also. uh. there is a resume and there's. accomplishments but then there is. oratory and charisma and the number of. twitter followers. uh so there's ability to captivate a. large number of people.

and that's a skill. that's a skill that. correlates but is not directly connected. to. with how impressive your resume is i. agree and moreover the judicial function. the judge doesn't go out and give. speeches of that sort because it's. exactly antithetical to what he's doing. he's a. custodian of the law and that's not a. popular uh. feature figure in american policy he. doesn't stand for election and it's a. good thing too. so i i take that point here i want to.

say something else though that's. provocative the next black president you. say the first black president shouldn't. have been the one to do that the second. one should. is more likely than not going to be a. republican i'm not i don't have a. particular person in mind i'm just. saying i agree. i agree. i agree. and that's why it's going to be super. fun. uh let me ask you. to put put on your wise sage hat and. give advice to young people. so if you're talking to somebody who's. in high school in college what advice.

would you give them about their career. about. life in general how to live a life they. can be proud of. well i'd say. the world is your oyster i mean first. order business you're not a victim i. don't care what color you are i don't. care you're male female you're gay. straight whatever the world is your. oyster. you are so privileged you sit here in. the united states of america a free. country a rich country everything is. possible for you believe me you can do. anything okay uh secondly i would say.

uh mastery. over. the medium in which we're embedded. is the key to the future. so get educated focus. work hard uh you know. invest in your future. by acquiring the skills that you need to. be able to navigate the 21st century. i would say. the chinese are coming and i don't mean. anything against china i just mean to.

say the world's a small place and it's. getting smaller. uh and uh. you know. you better get moving and you better get. moving quickly. i'd say your identity your coloration. your your orientation your your your. category uh is not the most important. thing about you that. uh you know so uh the the temptation to. limit yourself i mean i give this speech.

to my my kids i say. um. i i quote james joyce. uh. he has a a passage in um. portrait of an artist as a young man. in which he says uh. do you know what ireland is. ireland is an old sow. that eats her pharaoh. this is. joyce. he says.

uh stephen daedalus is the character. that he has in mind in this uh chronicle. he says. uh. your ethnic inheritance he's talking. about irish nationalism. are like nets holding you back. that your challenge is to learn how to. turn those nets into wings. and thereby to fly. okay flying into the open skies. of modern society. don't be your. grandfather don't be your father.

don't wear your thing so heavily that it. keeps you from being open to everything. that's new in the world. wear it lightly. yes everybody comes from somewhere but. it doesn't have to be where you end up. uh so you're you're not your father. you're not your grandfather. you you are this uh wonderfully blessed. uh human being in the middle of going. into the middle of the 21st century. um and uh.

don't miss it. don't don't don't live blinkeredly. don't live small. live big. uh. live big and uh wear. your history. lightly yeah. everybody's got a mother tongue. everybody's got a story everybody has a. people. but the world is a small place. i love that you're quoting.

an irishman. one of the greatest writers of the 20th. century a profound one. um but an irishman nevertheless the the. the levels of humor within that. is not lost on me let me just mention. the great ralph ellison the. african-american writer invisible man is. his uh masterpiece. uh embodied. this spirit okay we black americans we. do come from somewhere that come from. somewhere from slavery in america that's.

our. ancestral heritage. but that's not. what we are skin and bone. these are. superficial things the spirit and if i. were a more religious person i could. give a whole. disposition about that but it's the. spirit it's that light that's inside. that's that's who we are and our. challenge is to live in the fullness of. it uh as opposed to this. blinkered thing where we don't look left. we don't look right we're just fitting. within this template that we inherit uh. that is a.

travesty really. glenn you've lived an incredible life. a productive one but just representing. um. some powerful ideas some powerful ideals. but life comes to an end. yeah. do you think about your death. are you afraid of it. well. it is a. really interesting coincidence that. you'd posed me that question.

because i'm coming from a funeral. uh. today is sunday on the proceeding. tuesday five days ago. i was at the funeral of eugene wesley. smith. who was my brother-in-law. he was my sister's husband. my sister leonette. passed away in august. of 2021.

her husband has died at the age of 68. in. april. of 2022 and i was at his funeral. he died suddenly of a heart attack that. came completely out of the blue he. seemed to be in perfect health. he was a magnificent human being i could. go into the details but you know. take my word for it he was a businessman. a steel trader metals trader he would. buy and sell.

he worked mostly from his home office he. had clients. counterparties people he did business. with all over the world. um. he had three sons. one of whom is uh in his early 30s two. of whom are in their late 30s these are. my sisters. children she's deceased now he's. deceased. the older two sons are severely. developmentally disabled and although. they're. in their late 30s. they're not independently viable they. don't function effective they have to be.

cared for that responsibility has now. fallen to the family. but mainly to the surviving son. who lives and with his wife and his two. young children. and has assumed the responsibility. they've carried at home my sister and. her husband wesley eugene wesley smith. cared for their disabled sons at home. they didn't want to see them. institutionalized they had some help. from programs at the state and social. worker and so on but they mainly.

took on the burden of caring for them at. home. anyway i go on at length here and you. know i don't know how much of this you. will choose to make use of it it doesn't. matter really i'm just trying to respond. to your question i was asked. to offer some remarks at the funeral. and i offered them. and i you know. i i spoke well of this great man he was. a great man he had a straight back. he was a stand-up guy he could be.

counted on his word was his bond he had. broad shoulders he carried a lot of. people. with him business associates family. members and so forth and so on. he had a huge heart he was a giving and. kind person he had a great mind he was. an intellectual even though as a. businessman. much of his day was taken up with the. you know minutia of. contracts and you know the details of. the order being delivered and not being. delivered of the quality of the product.

of the financing and so forth there was. still a powerful mind there yeah it was. a powerful mind and he uh studied he. read books he was interested in music. and art he was. uh he's a spiritual seeker. uh had been ordained as a child minister. in his youth and. while he remained. uh a master. of the christian canon. he also explored uh eastern religion and. other spiritual paths and. kind of stood above any particular.

tradition as a man who believed in god. but thought that god manifests himself. in many ways to human beings and that. there was much to learn. from other religious traditions as well. this is wesley we called him wesley by. his middle name eugene wesley smith may. rest in peace. 68 that's five years younger than i am. right now he dropped dead without. any warning i could too. so. how does that make you. feel what were the thoughts in your mind.

leading up to it having to give that. speech in the days that followed first. of all i wondered what would i say what. would i say and you know there was no. way to prepare and i decided you know i. i rehearsed in my mind this. you know he has straight back he had. broad shoulders he had a big heart he. had a great mind you know he had a. capacious spirit. and whatnot and i used that as a. template for making my remarks but my. main thought was my god life is precious. and life is fleeting. and death is a part of life.

my death is a part of my life. and i thought you know well i want to. take better care of myself than i do you. know etc etc but i also thought a lot of. this is not in my hands at all. i thought one should have his affairs in. order. my brother did not have all of his. affairs in order in the sense that there. is a lot of. you know things are going to probate. there was no will there's you know this. it's kind of unsettled i i don't want. that to happen to my. uh surviving family members i i want to.

have my affairs. such that should heaven forbid i fall. over one day and don't get up again. um people don't have to scramble about. how to how to take care of things from. from that point forward but as a human. are you afraid. i'm afraid now i i read this wonderful. book called the swerve. uh it's it's about lucretius it's about. uh the nature of things which is this. great classical work from the roman. period.

uh by this uh guy lucretius. and i'm trying to think of the name of. the author but you could look it up the. swerve it's the book and one like a. national book award or a pulitzer prize. is and it's the history of the recovery. of this book. uh. by uh one of these italian renaissance. italian. uh people who would go into the. monasteries in central europe. uh and uh look through the scrolls and. they discovered these classical works. from antiquity which had been lost.

through the dark ages and they re re-uh. uh publish and and read these works and. lucretius's great work. on the nature of things was one of these. books poggio. uh bacclini i come i don't remember the. italian guy's name but this all could be. looked up. uh yeah pogio broccolini yeah 15th. century. uh 15th century and the name of. the. author is a stephen greenblatt yeah.

stephen greenblack a magnificent book. and a terrific story. anyway. one of lucretius's points he was an. atheist. i mean he was a roman i mean he was. he he didn't believe in mysticism. and he and and he argued it's irrational. to be afraid of death. why should i fear death. death is coming to all of us. the point of being afraid i mean i'm. wasting my time fearing something that i. have no. ultimate control over it's irrational to.

be afraid of death. uh yeah because it uh you can't predict. when it happens. you only know that it happens. so why be afraid how's that and. therefore live every day fully live. every day purposefully. um. you know. and so on but these are all just words. you know i i don't want to die. uh i want to live forever i'm not going. to live forever. i don't want to i don't want to suffer. i i see people suffering i saw my late.

wife. linda dacha lowry dr linda. thatcher lowry professor of economics at. tufts university whom i met in graduate. school at mit. black woman from baltimore. we married we raised two sons together. she died at the age of 59. from metastatic breast cancer and i. watched her suffer and i watched her die. and it took a while. and we care for her at home right up. until the very end she died in our bed.

with our sons on either side of her. and the dog curled up by the. by the door the porch door in the. bedroom and she expired. and i watched her suffer and i watched. her die and i don't want to suffer who. does. i don't want to die i am likely to. suffer before i die. uh i am likely to see my death coming. and to lament it. um.

there is a book by richard john newhouse. the theologian called as i light as i. lay dying. as i lay dying richard john newhouse. uh he had stomach cancer and. he thought he was dying and he wrote. this book as he lay dying. and then he recovered he had uh he went. when it went into remission and he had. another couple of years he thought he. was dying and he had another couple. years. and i can remember meeting him. at a bookstore in suburban boston when.

he was on a tour. he was this was a friend of mine. a theologian and a public intellectual. he founded the institute on religion and. public life in new york city which still. exists. uh richard john newhouse. and he's contemplating his own death. from the point of view of a christian. minister he was a first a lutheran. pastor and then he. converted to catholicism or as he would. have put it on return to the church. because he you know thought the. renaissance was over i mean i'm sorry.

the reformation. richard thought was over he says there's. only one church you know it's. etc. get into theology stuff here um but. i'm saying all that to say i read that. book aloud to my wife linda as she lay. dying in that bed i read that book. and it was filled with hope i mean it. first. acknowledged the dread. yes. i lie. dying i don't want to die i'm a. christian minister christ was raised.

from the dead i'm supposed to believe in. everlasting life but the fact of the. matter is this is me and i'm lying here. and i'm dying. this is the end of me. how are you going to do anything other. than dread the end of me so let's. acknowledge that i don't want to die. okay i'm just going to tell you that up. front. but. that is not the end of. my death is not the end of life. i have lived well and fully. i will go and do my best right up until.

the end. uh i will accept what is inevitable. uh and i will hold out this belief and. he's a christian minister so he holds. out this belief and he knows he knows. that the belief is not rational it's not. a reasoned deductive scientific. conclusion. it's spiritual in the most fundamental. way. it is something that people hold on to. and they have hope and he had hope. uh i don't know if i have that hope i.

used to be. but i'm no longer. um. a christian and i'm no longer a theist. really i i. i'm with lucretius there i mean there's. no nothing. there's no magic that's going on here. there's no you know unseen hand behind. the scene that's arranging things. what i believe is that when i look at. the natural world i see i see the. evolution of the species i see the. organic development of the of the. planets i mean the earth is going to not.

exist in. a finite number of years i think with a. very high probability the sun. is going to die it's going to you know. implode it's going to go supernova. whatever is going to happen and there's. not going to be. any there there. what's the meaning of life glenn larry. that's the meaning of life yeah. let's go let's go. what's the why. or is that something economists. and social scientists and mathematicians.

are not equipped to answer. surely you know. i think we live we try to live well and. meaningfully within our time uh we bond. we reproduce. we try to pass on and we accept our. limitations and our. mortality we try to. contribute. um. and. that's through our children and. through our work.

and we're in this together we're not in. this alone uh we we are. connected to other people. um. i get a lot of gratitude out of teaching. i'm a teacher. my students are gonna outlive me they're. going to have students. i'm a writer. my writing is going to outlive me i. don't want to be. you know self-important or pretentious. here i doubt that i'm going to be the. james joyce of the 21st century. they may not be reading my stuff in a.

hundred years as people will certainly. be reading. uh. ulysses in a hundred years. but i try to have a impact on my on on. the world that i'm a part of and and try. to leave a legacy that's dignified. uh you know i mean i could give some. flowery words to truth-seeking and. whatnot. what about love. love. what what what what what role does love. play in this uh. in this life.

around i mean without love i mean what. have we got i mean we don't have. uh. we we don't have family and and uh. you know. we we certainly have missed out if love. is not a central part of our of our. existence but stop asking me questions. like that. thank you for doing everything you do. for thinking the way you do for being. fearless and bold. um. in in the glenn show in your writing and.

in your work and just being who you are. thank you for being you and thank you. for giving me the huge honor of spending. your extremely valuable time with me. today this is awesome it's been my. pleasure lex i mean really and it has. been like four hours man i mean you. wearing me out for me. i love it. thanks for listening to this. conversation with glenn lowery to. support this podcast please check out. our sponsors in the description and now. let me leave you with some words from dr. martin luther king jr.

if you can't fly then run. if you can't run then walk. if you can't walk then crawl. but whatever you do. you have to keep moving forward. thank you for listening and hope to see. you next time. you.