Garry Nolan: UFOs and Aliens | Lex Fridman Podcast #262

how would you as a higher intelligence. represent yourself. to a lesser intelligence do you think. they saw. what they say they saw it didn't just. start showing up in 1947. how hard do. you think it is for aliens to. communicate with humans what do we. believe in we believe in technology so. you show yourself as a form of. technology. right but the common thread is. you're not alone. and there's something else here with you. and there's something that's as you said. watching you.

you are a professor stanford studying. the biology of the human organism at the. level of individual cells. so let me ask first. the. big ridiculous philosophical question. what is the most beautiful. or fascinating aspect of human biology. at the level of the cell to you. the. micro machines and the nano machines. that proteins make and become that to me. is the most interesting. the fact that you have this.

basically dynamic computer within every. cell that's constantly processing its. environment. and at the heart of it is dna. which is a dynamic machine a dynamic. computation process people think of the. dna as a linear code. it's codes within codes within codes and. it is the actually the epigenetic state. that's doing this amazing processing i. mean if you ever wanted to believe in. god just look inside the cell. so dna is both information and computer.

exactly. how did that computer come about. a big continuing the philosophical. question is this both scientific and. philosophical how did life originate on. earth do you think how did this. at every level so the very first step. and the fascinating complex computer. that is. dna that is multicellular organism and. then maybe the fascinating. uh complex computer that is the human. mind. well i think you have to take just one. more step back to the complex computer.

that is the universe. right all of the the so-called particles. or the waves that people think the. universe is made of and uh appears to me. at least to be a computational process. and embedded in that is biology right so. all the atoms of a protein etc sit in. that computational matrix. from my point of view it's computing. something it's computing towards. something it was created in some ways if.

you want to believe in god and i don't. know that i do but if you want to. believe in something. the universe was created or at least. enabled. to allow for life to form. and so. the dna. if you ask where does dna come from and. you can go all the way back to richard. dawkins and. uh the selfish gene hypotheses. the way i look at dna though is. it is not a moment in time it assumes. the context of the body and the. environment in which it's going to live.

and so. if you if you want to ask a question of. where and how does information get. stored. dna although it's only three billion. base pairs long contains more. information. than i think the entire. computational. memory resources of our current. technology because who and what you are. is both what you were as an egg all the. way through to the day you die. and it embodies all the different cell. types and organs in your body.

and so it's a computational. reservoir. of information and expectation. that. you will become so actually i would sort. of turn it around a different way and. say if you wanted to create the best. memory storage system possible. you could reverse engineer what a human. is and create a dna. memory system that is not just the. linear. version but is also.

everything that it could become when. we're talking about dna we're talking. about earth and the environment creating. dna so this. you're talking about trying to come up. with a optimal computer for this. particular environment right. so if you reverse engineer that computer. what do you mean by considering all the. possible things it could become so who. you are today right so three billion. bits of information does not explain lex. friedman yeah doesn't explain me.

right but. the dna embodies the expectation of the. environment in which you will. live. yes and grow and become so all the. information that is you. right is actually not only embedded in. the dna. but it's embedded in the context of the. world in which you. grow into. and develop. right but so all that information though. is is packed in the expectation of what. the dna expects to see.

interesting so like. some of the information. is that accurate to say is stored. outside the body exactly yeah the. information is stored outside because. there's a context of expectation isn't. that interesting yeah it's fascinating i. mean. it to linger on this point. if we were to run earth over again a. million times how many different. versions of this type of computer would. we get i think it would be different. each time i mean if you assume there's.

no such thing as fate. right and it's not all pre-programmed. you know and that there is some sort of. let's say. variation or randomness at the beginning. you would get as many different versions. of life as you could imagine and i don't. think it would all be. unless there's something built into the. you know into the substrate of the. universe it wouldn't always be. left-handed. proteins. right. but i wonder what the flap of a. butterfly wing what.

effects it has because. it's possible that. this system is really good at finding. the efficient answer and maybe the. efficient answer. is uh. there's only a small finite set of them. for this particular environment exactly. exactly that's the kind of in a way the. anthropomorphic universe of the. multiverse expectations right that you. know there's probably a zillion other. kinds of universes out there if you. believe in multiverse. theory. we only live in the ones where the rules.

are such. that. life like ours can exist. so using that logic how many alien. civilizations do you think are out there. there's there's. there's like trillions of environments. aka. planets or. maybe you can think even bigger than. planets. how many. life-like organisms do you think are. out there thriving and maybe how many do. you think are long gone but were once.

here. i think well innumerable. uh. i think in terms of the rate of zero. much greater than zero i mean i would. just be surprised what a waste right of. all that space just for us if we're. never going to get there. that would be my first. uh way to think about it. but. second i mean. i remember when i was about seven or. eight years old and i would love if any. of your listeners could find this. national geographic i remember opening.

uh the page of the national geographic i. was about again seven to ten years old. and it was sort of a current picture of. the universe it was around probably 1968. 1969. i remember looking at it and thinking. what kinds of. empires have risen and fallen across. that space. that we'll never know about and would. isn't that sad.

that we know nothing about something so. grand. and so i've always been a reader of. science fiction because i like. the creative ideas of what people come. up with. and i especially like. science fiction writers that base it in. good science but base it also in. evolution. that if you evolve a civilization. from something. lifelike right some sort of biology.

its assumptions about the universe will. come from. the environment. in which it grew up so for instance. larry niven is a great writer uh and he. imagines different kinds of. civilizations in some cases what happens. if. uh evolut what happens if intelligence. evolved from a herd animal. right would you lead from behind. right would you be. uh you know in his case one of them were. the so-called puppeteers. and to them the moral imperative is.

cowardice. you put other people forward to run the. risk for you. right and so he writes entire books. around that premise. there's another guy. bryn david brin is his name and he. writes the so-called. uplift universe books. and in those he takes different. uh. intelligences. each from a different evolutionary. background. and then he posits.

a civilization based around. where and what they came from and so i. to me i mean that's that's just fun but. i mean back to your original question. is. how many are there i think as as as many. stars as we can see. now how many are currently there i don't. know i mean that's the whole. that's the whole question of you know. how long can a civilization last before. it. runs out of steam and you. for instance does it just get bored or.

does it transcend to something else or. does it say i've seen enough and i'm. done. what does running out of steam look like. it could be destroy itself or get bored. you know it said or we've we've done. everything we can and. they just decide to stop i don't know. i just don't know it's the elon musk. worry that we stop reproducing or we. slow down the reproduction rate to where. uh the population can go to zero can go. to zero and and we can't and we collapse. i mean so the only way to. get around that is uh perhaps.

create enough machines with ai to take. care of us. what could possibly go wrong. you've talked to people that. told stories of ufo encounters. what is the most fascinating to you. about the stories of these ufo. encounters that uh that you've heard. that people have told you the similarity. of them uh. the uniformity of the of the stories now.

i just want to say up front. a lot of people. think that when i speculate. i believe something that's not true. right speculation is just creativity. speculation is the beginning of. hypothesis. none of what i hear in terms of the. anecdotes do i necessarily believe are. they true. but i still find them fascinating to. listen to because at some level there's. still raw data. and you have to listen and once you.

start to hear. the same story again and again. then you have to say well there might be. something to it i mean maybe it's some. kind of a jungian. background in the human mind and human. consciousness that creates these stories. again and again as coming out of the dna. it's coming out of that pre-programmed. something and young talked quite a bit. about this kind of thing the collective. unconscious but actually one of the most. interesting ones i find is this constant.

uh message. that. you're not taking care of your world. and this. came long before. climate change it came long before. uh many kinds of you know let's say. current day memes. uh. around uh. you know taking care of our planet. pollution etc. and so you know for instance perhaps the. best example of this the one that i find. the most fascinating is a story out of.

zimbabwe uh 50 or 60 children. one. afternoon in. zimbabwe it's a it was a well-educated. group of white and black children. uh who and lunchtime in the playground. saw a craft. and they saw little men. and they all ran into the teachers and. they told the same story and they drew. the same pictures. and the message several of them got was.

you are not taking care of your planet. and they've got you know there's. actually a movie coming out uh on this. uh episode and. 30 years later now. the people who were there the children. who've now grown up. say it it happened to us now did it. happen. was it some sort of hallucination or was. it a an imposed hallucination by. something was it material i i don't know. but. these kids were seven to ten years old.

you see them on video. seven to 10 year olds can't lie like. that. and so. you know whether it's real or not i. don't know but i find that fascinating. data and again it's the it's these. unconnected stories. of individuals with the same. with the same story. that is. worthy of. further inquiry. yeah so here we are humans with limited. cognitive capacities trying to make.

sense of the world trying to understand. what is real and not. we have this dna that somehow in complex. ways is interacting with the environment. and then we get these uh. novel. ideas. that come from. the populace. and then. they make us wonder about what it all. means. and so how to interpret it if you think. from an alien perspective how would you.

communicate. with other life-like organisms. you perhaps have to. find. endpoints on this interaction between. the the dna and its. manifestations in terms of the the the. human mind and the. how it interacts with the environment so. get some kind of all right what is this. dna what is this environment i have to. get in somehow right to like interact. with it to get to perturb the system to. where these little ants human like.

ants get like excited and figure and see. stuff out yeah yes and then and then. somehow steer them. uh first of all for investigative. purposes understand like. oftentimes to understand a system you. have to perturb it exactly it's like. poke at it you get they get excited or. not and then the the the other ways you. want to. if you worry about them you can steer in. one direction or another and this kind. of idea of that we're not taking care of.

our world. um. that's interesting i mean that's. comforting that's hopeful because that. means. the greater intelligence which is what i. would hope would want to take care of us. look we want to take care of the. gorillas in the national parks in africa. yeah but we don't want to take care of. cockroaches so there's a line we draw so. you have to hope that. right now we're a bunch of angry monkeys. and you know maybe whatever these. intelligences are. are also keeping an eye on us.

you know that you don't want a bunch of. you know you don't want the angry monkey. troop. stomping around the local galactic arm. do you think these folks are telling the. truth. do you think they saw. what they say they saw. i think they. saw what they said they saw but i also. think they saw what they were shown i. mean if you go back to the. whole notion of. okay how long has this. been around it didn't just start showing. up in 1947.

right there are stories going back. uh you know into the 1800s of people who. saw things in their farming in their. farm fields in the u.s it's it's in. it's in. local newspapers from the 1800s it's. fascinating. but if you can go even further back. you know so to your point of how are how. would you as a higher intelligence. represent yourself. to a lesser intelligence. well let's go back to pre-civilization.

maybe you show yourself as the spirits. in the forest. and you give messages. through that. once you get a little bit more civilized. civilized then you show yourself as the. gods. and then you're god well we don't. believe in god anymore necessarily not. everybody does so what do we believe in. we believe in technology so you show. yourself as a form of technology. right but the common thread is. you're not alone. and there's something else here with you. and there's something that's as you said.

watching you and at least. watching over your shoulder. but i i think that like any good parent. you don't. tell. your student everything. you make them learn. and learning requires mistakes because. if you tell them everything. then they get lazy. you've uh looked at the brains of um. or information coming from the brain of. some of the people that have had ufo. encounters what's common about the brain.

of people who encounter ufos. so the the study started with a group of. let's say a cohort of individuals that. were brought to me. and their mris. to ask about the damage that had been. seen in these individuals it turns out. that the majority of those patients. ended up being as far as we can tell. havana syndrome and so. for me at least this you know that part. of the story. ends in terms of the injury it's likely.

almost all havana syndrome that's. somebody else's problem now that's not. my problem. um. but. when we were looking at the brains of. these individuals we noticed something. right in the center of the basal ganglia. in many of these individuals that at. first we thought was damage it was. basically an enriched patch. of mri dense. neurons that we thought was damage and. but then it was showing up in everybody. and then we looked and said oh it's.

actually not. the other readings on these mris show. that actually that's living tissue. um that's actually the head of the. caudate in the potamin um and at the. time and i remember even asking a good. friend of mine uh at stanford who is a. psychiatrist what does the basal ganglia. do he said oh the basal ganglia is just. about uh movement and nerve and motor. control i said well that's odd because. uh you know these other papers that we. were reading at the time started to. suggest that it was involved.

with. uh higher intelligence and is actually. downstream of the executive function. and involved with intuition. and planning. and if you think about it. if you're going to have motor control. which is centralized in one place. motor control requires knowledge of the. environment you know you you don't want. to move something in and hit the table. or if you're walking across a room you. want to. be.

aware and cognizant of what you might. bump into. so. obviously. all of that planning. is. requires access to all the senses. it requires access to your desires. memory knowledge of where and what you. want and desire to walk near or by like. i use the example of you're at a party. you want to avoid that person you like. that person the waiter is about to drop. something. all without thinking. you maneuver. so that actually all that planning is.

done in the basal ganglia. and it's actually now called the brain. within the brain. it's a. it's a goal processing system. subservient to executive function. so. what we think we found there was. not something which allows people to. talk to ufos i mean i think the ufo. community. uh took it a step too far. what i think we found was a form of. higher.

functioning and processing. so what we then looked at and this was. the most fascinating part of it we. looked then at individuals in the. families of those. let's say the index case individuals. and we found that it was actually in. families. and more so. this is the most fascinating part we've. probably looked now at about 200. just random cases that you can download. off of databases online. you don't see this. higher connectivity.

you only find it in what kit green would. have called or has called higher. functioning individuals people who are. uh. i mean he he called them savants i i. don't have the means to. uh we haven't done the testing but it. turns out my family has it right we we. found it in. and me my brother my sister my mother we. found it as well in other individuals. husband and wife pairs.

so statistically. if you had a group of 20 individuals and. you found two husband wife pairs both of. whom had it and yet. it's only founded about we think one in. 200 1 or 300 individuals the fact that. two individuals came together. two sets of individuals came together. both whom had it implied either. a restricted breeding group. or. attraction. the reason why. it seems to be. in let's say so-called.

experiencers or people who claim. if if intuition is the ability to see. something that other people don't and i. don't mean that in a paranormal sense. but being able to see something just in. front of you that other people might. just dismiss. well maybe that's a function of a higher. kind of intelligence to say well. i i'm not looking at. an artifact. i'm not looking at something that i. should just ignore. i'm seeing something and i recognize it.

for not what it is but that it is. something different than is normally. found in my environment. yeah you know i have a little bit of. that. i i seem to uh. see the magic in a lot of moments like. have a deep it's obviously not obviously. but it seems to be. chemical in nature. that. i just. i'm excited about life i i love. life i love like stupid things it feels. like i'm high a lot. unlike mushrooms or something like that.

where you'd really appreciate that so. you're able i'm able to detect something. about the environment. that uh maybe others don't i don't know. but like i seem to be over the top. grateful to be alive on a lot of first a. lot of stupid reasons and that's in. there somewhere i mean it's kind of. interesting because um. it really is true that. our brains the way we're brought up but. also the genetics.

enables us to see certain slices of the. world and. some people are probably more receptive. to. anomalous information. they see the. they see the magic the possibility in. the novel thing right as opposed to kind. of. uh finding the pattern of the common of. the regular some people are more wait a. minute this is kind of weird i mean a. lot of those people probably become. scientists too like.

huh. like. there's this pattern happening over and. over and over and then something weird. just happened and then you get. excited by that weirdness and start to. pull the string. and discover what is at the core of that. weirdness and perhaps. is that. you know maybe by way of question. how does the human perception system. deal with anomalous information do you. think well it first tries to classify it. and get it out of the way if it's not.

food if it's not sex. right if it's not. uh in the way of my desires. or if it is in the way of my desires. then. you focus on it. and so the i think the question is how. much spare processing power how much cpu. cycles do we spend on things that are. not those core. desires what uh. is the most.

kind of um. memorable powerful ufo encounter report. you've ever heard. just to you pers on a personal level. like this something that was really. powerful. well i mentioned the zimbabwe one that's. particularly interesting and one that. actually most people don't know about. but family. driving down the highway two little. girls in the back. open glass. topped car.

and. the little girls see. a craft right over their. car this is the middle of the day. on a busy. highway the mother sees it. nobody can. they look around nobody else seems to. see it so the girls take out their. camera take a picture of it. and then they get home. uh they look at the picture there's no. craft. but there's a little object. about 30 feet above their.

car or so. probably about. three feet across kind of star-shaped. it's not the craft but it's something. else there's obviously there was. something there. and so what were they seeing were they. seeing a projection were they seeing. and why were only they seeing it. and the photograph. was capturing. something very different than we're. seeing there's still an object what can. you. give a little bit of context is this. from modern day it's modern day oh yeah.

they had a camera i mean okay they had a. cell phone camera and this was like a. five years ago report provided by the. way where's like a central place to. provide a report is this oh there's a. mufon but this isn't public i've seen. the picture oh this is something you've. directly interacted with yeah yeah i've. seen the picture so those moments like. that. they captivate your uh. well. it's so different it doesn't fall into. the standard story at all but it also. but in another way it's kind of a.

it's a clear enunciation of this notion. that when people see events they don't. all see the same thing now we've heard. this about like traffic accidents. different people will see the color of. the car differently or the chain of. events differently and just tells you. that memory isn't anywhere near what we. think it is but. the issue around these so-called ufo. reports is that. the same people will see a very. different thing almost as if whatever it. is is projecting.

a. is projecting something into the mind. rather than it being real right rather. than being a real manifestation. you know material in front of you it's. actually almost some sort of an altered. virtual reality that is imposed on you i. mean. you know i think. the company meta. and all the virtual reality companies. would love to have something like that. right well you don't have to actually. wear something on your face. yes to experience a virtual reality what.

happens if you could just project it. well that's the fundamental question. from an alien perspective. when you look at or as we humans look at. ants. how does this perception system operate. so not only how does this thing's mind. operate how does the human mind operate. but how does it their perception system. operate so that we can like. stimulate the perception system. properly to get them to think certain. things and so uh you know.

that's a really important question. humans think that. you know the only way to communicate is. in like 3d or 4d. space time there's physical objects or. maybe you write things into some kind of. language but there could be just uh. so much. more um richness in how you can. communicate and so from an alien. perspective where somebody has much. greater technological capabilities you. have to figure out how do i use the.

skills i have to stimulate. uh the human the limited humans right. well i mean let's take the ants exam. again as an example let's say that you. wanted to. make ants practical you wanted to use. them for something right you wanted to. use them as a form of biological robot. now darpa and other uh people have been. trying to. use insects for. you know and to turn them into. biological robots but if you wanted to. you would have to interact with their.

sense of smell. right their pheromone system that they. use to. interact with each other. so you would either create those. molecules to talk to them to make them. do not say talk to them as if they're. intelligent but talk to them to. manipulate them in ways that you want. or if you were. advanced enough you would. use some sort of electromagnetic or. other. means to stimulate their neurons in ways. that would accomplish the same goal. as the pheromones but by doing it in a.

sort of a telefactoring way. so let's say you wanted to tell a factor. with humans. you would. interact with them and this is again. this is a technology which you could. imagine possible. you could telefactor information into. the sensory system of a human right but. then. each human is a little bit different so. either you know enough about them to. tailor it to that individual or you just. basically take advantage of whatever the. sensory net is that that individual has.

so if you happen to be. good at sound or you happen to be a very. visually inclined individual. then maybe the sensory information that. you get. that's most effective. in terms of transmitting information. would come through that portal. i think the aliens would need to figure. out that humans value physical. consistency so we've discovered physics. so we want our perception to make sense. maybe they don't they haven't you know.

that's not an obvious fact of perception. that. you have to figure out what kind of. things are humans used to observing in. this particular environment of earth. and how do we stimulate the perception. system. in a way that's uh not anomalous or not. too doesn't cross the threshold of just. like well that's way too weird right so. they have to i mean that's not obvious. that that should be important. you know maybe you want to err on the. side of uh.

anomaly like lean into the weirdness so. communication is complicated yeah well. that's why i always i always find this. issue of people talking about the. so-called grays. as interesting because. it it is related to what you're saying. they're different enough. but they're not so different as to be. scary right they're not venom dripping. fangs. right they're different enough. but they they all it's also like they're.

they're what you could imagine us. becoming in some distant future so is. that a purposeful representation. i i don't know i mean i don't believe in. the grays for instance but i believe. that people think that they see it. so if we're talking about a. communication strategy that says. you know we're we're like you but not. the same as you. this might be a manifestation that you. that you represent. in terms of a communication strategy.

what do you. make of david's favorite sighting of the. tic tac. ufo and other pilots who have. seen these objects that seem to defy the. laws of physics. well i think. you have to take them at their word. um are they fascinating to you. absolutely no i know i know a lot of. these people right so i. i know lou elizanto chris mellon. the whole crowd i've been i i saw the. videos. about three weeks or so before.

they went public. i was um at a bar with lou. overlooking the pentagon um in crystal. city and they showed them to me and my. hair stood on end and he said they said. this is he said this is coming out soon. and i. i know. one of the guys on the inside who was. the naval intelligence who had. interviewed all of these pilots again. before this came out. and it was hair-raising. to hear this uh but also.

exciting. that you know here's not just people's. testimony these are credible individuals. and if you've seen the 60-minute episode. with uh some of the pilots. uh you know they have no monetary gain. of anything they've got negative gain uh. from coming out but then you also have. all of those. simultaneous uh. ship analysis from the uss princeton and. the radar analysis etc. so um. you know at the end of the day. it's.

just data. it's not a conclusion um i'm i'd be. perfectly happy. honestly perfectly happy if somebody. showed that it was all a hoax. i go back to my day job. right that could be a hoax but other. things might not be i mean right this is. the point i mean what this is why it's. nice to remove. some of the stigma about this topic. because it's all just data and. uh and. anomalous events.

are such that there's going to be. they're going to be rare in terms of how. much data they represent but we have to. consider the full range of data to. discover the things that actually. represent something that's um. if we pull at it we'll discover. something that's extraterrestrial or. something. deep about the phenomena on earth that. we don't yet understand right well if it. only stimulates people for instance to. think okay well what happens if we could. move like that with momentum-less.

movement. and. and it stimulates. young individuals to go into the. sciences. to. ask those questions that to me is. fascinating i mean after i've been. openly talking about this in the last. year especially. i've had a number of. students from top schools who aren't my. students come to me and say. if i can help. let me how can i help i never had. thought about this before but you opened.

you and others not just you and others. have opened my mind to thinking about. this matter yeah that's why it's. actually funny that uh. elon musk doesn't think too much about. this. these kinds of propulsion systems that. could defy the laws of physics as we. currently understand them. to me. it's a powerful way to think what is. possible. it's uh it's inspiring even if somebody. doesn't represent uh. uh extraterrestrial vehicles i think the.

the observation itself it's like uh. something you mentioned. which is uh you know hypothesizing. imagining. these things. considering the possibility of these. things. i think opens up your mind. in a way that uh. ultimately can create the technology. first you have to believe the. technologies possible before you can. create it right. in my own lab you know we always look. for. as i've said before what is inevitable.

and you know saying inevitably this is. the kind of data we need but if we need. that kind of data the instrument we want. isn't. doesn't exist. okay so i imagine the perfect instrument. i can't make it. and you back. into something which is practical. and then you in a sense reverse engineer. the future. of what it is that you want to make. and i've started and sold like. at least half a dozen or more companies.

using that basic premise. and so. it was always something that didn't. exist today but we imagined what we. wanted. and at the time many people said it. couldn't be done i mean for instance all. the gene therapy that's done today with. retroviruses. came from. a group meeting in david baltimore's lab. i was a postdoc with him. and one of the other postdocs. wasn't able to you make retroviruses in. a way that he wanted to and i realized i. had a cell line that would allow us to.

make retroviruses in two days rather. than two months. and so he and i then worked together to. make that system and now all gene. therapy with retroviruses is done using. this basic approach around the whole. world because something couldn't be done. and we wanted to do it better. and we imagined the future. and so that's i think. what the whole ufo phenomenon is doing. for people it's like well let's imagine. a future.

where these kinds of technologies are. but also let's imagine a future where we. don't blow ourselves up right so if. these things are there they manage to. not blow themselves up. so it means that at least. one other civilization got past the. inflection point. so if some of the encounters are. actually representing. alien civilizations visiting us. why do you think. they're doing so. you suggested that perhaps it's this. study understand their own past.

right right what what are some of the. motivations do you think and. again from from our perspective us as. humans what motivations would we have. when we approach other civilizations we. may discover in the future. well i think one motivation might be to. steer us away from the precipice. right or on the assumption that you know. even if we make it past the precipice at. least. uh we're not a bunch of psychopaths you.

know running around so maybe there's a. little bit of motivation there to make. sure that your the neighbor that's. growing up next to you is not. you know unruly. um. you know but i mean maybe it's sort of a. moral imperative. like what we have with you know creating. uh. national parks where animals can. continue to live out their lives in a. natural way. i don't know i mean that would be.

i mean the problem is we're imagining. from a. anthropomorphic. viewpoint what an alien might think and. as i've said before. alien means alien right i mean not. hollywood aliens. but. a whole different way of thinking. and a whole different level of. experience and let's say wisdom. hopefully. that we could only hope to understand.

now but if we ever get out there if we. ever make it past our. current problems. uh and even if we don't have faster than. light travel and even if we're only. using. ram scoops or. light sails to get where we want to go. uh and it takes us. 10 000 years to get somewhere or to. spread out um we might encounter such. things and are we just going to stomp. all over it. like we did in colonial south america or. africa or all the rest.

on our current path likely. you know and so what are we going to. learn. well we're getting better and better at. understanding what is life. and i think we're getting better and. better being careful not to step on it. when we when we see it and i i this is. one of the nice things about talking. about ufos. is it expands the overton window it. expands our understanding of what. possibly could be life. it gets us to think it gets the.

scientific community to think when we go. to mars go and we go to these different. moons that possibly have life. you know we're not looking at uh legged. organisms. we're looking at some kind of. complexity. that uh. arises in resistance to the natural. world. and um. there's a lot of instruments like that. resistance to the natural world yeah so. somehow. there's a rebellious process complex.

system going on here. and i don't know you know the many ways. it could take form and there's a sense. you know for aliens that. as the technology develops they take. form more and more. in as information. as something that can influence the. space of. of ideas of the. processing of data itself so i just uh. this idea of embodiment that we humans. so admire.

physically visible perceivable. embodiment. may be a very. uh inefficient thing. right if you think just about. you know your area ai you know we're. we're. trying to make smaller and smaller and. smaller. uh circuitry. that is uh. basically. closer and closer to the physics of how. the universe operates.

right right down at the level of i mean. quantum computers are basically write. down about quantum information storage. so. fast forward ten thousand a hundred. thousand years. maybe somebody found a way to embody ai. directly into the physics of the. universe. right. and it doesn't require a physical. manifestation it just it just sits in. space-time. it's just a locally ordered space we're. just locally ordered space time. right. you know i mean people.

but maybe they just they found a way to. embody it there. they probably have to get really good at. not you know trampling on the ants. the the better your technology gets the. easier it is to accidentally like oops. just destroy these simpleton biological. systems. we constantly think about whatever these. things might be we think. that they are some sort of a unified. force. well maybe they're not unified. maybe they are as disparate.

as you and i are. and maybe what keeps them. from stomping all over the ants is each. other. right that they are in a self tension. to. prevent. one or more of them from running amok. oh yeah i mean that's kind of the. anarchy of nations that we have on earth. so. there's there's always. there's always going to be this um. there's a hierarchy this hierarchy. that's formed of greater and greater.

intelligences right and they're all. probably also wondering. wait what's bigger than me exactly. that's what i always wonder is that. maybe that they're what keeps them in. line. is something that is beyond them like. what created the universe i mean that. and that's probably a question that. bothers them too. um what about the communication task. itself. how hard do you think it is for aliens. to communicate with humans so is this. something you um. think about about this barrier of.

communication between biological systems. and something else. how difficult is it to find a common. language. well i think if you're smart enough. or technologically enabled enough it's. relatively straightforward. um now. whether your concepts. can ever be dumbed down to us. that might be hard. i mean again talking to the ants talking.

to the ants i mean on instagram. so. [Laughter]. you want to look good in this picture. let me explain let me explain to you why. yeah. so. that's the essential problem of. you know. perhaps they realize. who it is that they're talking to. and they say we're. rather than muddy the picture we're only. going to give them limited information.

yeah right and yeah maybe we could sit. down like you and i and have a. conversation but then they would make. assumptions. the humans would then make assumptions. about us that aren't true. because we're not humans. right so. let's stay at arm's length. let's just let them know that. we're here. right and here's the limited amount of. communication again this this notion. that. if you give somebody everything they'll. get lazy.

and you know if if they've been around. as long as they have they've seen every. kind of thing that can go wrong. and so it's it's they know as much as. they might want to step in. that would be a wrong thing. yeah you have to also understand that. the the amount of wisdom they carry. yeah. you know and so it's it's very easy as. well for religions to i don't want i. don't want to get into a whole religious. conversation but you could very easy for.

rel you could see how religions. could call them angels or devils or. what have you because. again if you're trying to fit it into a. framework of cultural understanding. um the first thing you reach for. is god. and so. it. when you when you look at what these. things are and again with the angels and. the devils in a similar sort of way. their communication is limited. they just kind of give little.

what's the the oracle of delphi they. kind of give these delphic. pronouncements and then it's up to you. to figure out what it is that they. really mean. stephen greer. uh claimed that a skeleton discovered in. atacama region of chile. might be an alien. you reached out to him and uh took on. the task of proving or disproving that. with the rigor of science the result is. a paper titled. whole genome sequencing of atacama.

skeleton shows novel mutations linked. with dysplasia can you tell this full. story. the story was as you put it. right there. correct. reached out. got a sample of the body. did the dna sequencing. then worked with a team. of uh two other stanford scientists and. uh. roche sequencing group. roche diagnostics and probably a total.

team of about 11 or so people um and as. as is standard. in these kinds of things the professors. actually don't do the work. the students do the work and figured out. the answer. uh and then we help them put together. the story. uh. and the story was simply that uh it was. human a hundred percent. i went into it thinking it was. originally a monkey. of some sort. um. i got kind of excited a few months into.

the process thinking well what happens. if it is an alien. right can you describe some of the. characteristics of the skeleton that. makes it unique and interesting. primarily it had dysmorphias of the of. the brain. um and so the first thing i did actually. when i got pictures of it i took it to a. local expert at stanford. uh and uh he was um on the paper. and uh. he was the world expert in pediatric. bone dysmorphias.

though he literally wrote the book. and. on this because that's what you do you. go to an expert when it's outside of. your field of interest and he said well. i haven't seen this particular. collection of mutations before uh or. this uh this physiology before but. here's what i think it might be. um and he said but based on the size of. the of the. thing and the bone density. it would appear to be.

like six or seven years old. now again that's the. that's the thing where i think the lay. public. doesn't understand or. takes a speculation like that and turns. it into a fact. no one ever said that it was that age. we only said that the bones made it look. like it was that age. but then we went back and looked for. uh. genetic explanations of why things might. look the way they did. and. if you again read the paper it's very.

carefully caveated. to say that these mutations might. result in this but what we did find was. an unexpectedly. large number. of mutations associated with bone growth. in this individual and it was just. a bad roll of the dice right you roll. the dice enough times with enough. people born every year. and someone will. roll. the wrong dice.

all at once so the sad part about it was. individuals in the ufo community who. wanted to think. that there was some sort of conspiracy. around it. right that. somebody had somehow convinced all of my. students. uh to lie. right i mean come on. you know i i would lose my i would lose. my job first of all. uh and they would all be. uh you know in trouble forever.

yeah but also it's just projecting. malevolence onto people that. doesn't i don't think exist in normal. populous and especially doesn't exist in. the scientific community the kind of. people that go into science i mean this. is what bothers me with the current. distrust of science. is there they might be naive they might. they might not especially modern science. look at the big picture philosophical. ethical questions all that kind of stuff. but ultimately they're. uh people with integrity and just a deep.

curiosity for the discovery of cool. little things and there's no. um. there's no malevolence. broadly speaking in the scientific. community. so i mean there's a bigger story here. which is. you know there's a hunger in the. populace to discover something anomalous. something new. and um you know science has to. be.

both open to the anomalous but also. to reject. the anomalous when the data doesn't. support it right. what do you make of that you know. walking that line for you because you're. dealing with your phone counters you're. dealing with. with the anomalous well people have said. let's go back to the atacama case that i. was debunking it. well debunking is a loaded term sort of. assumes that you are going in. purposefully to. prove something is wrong.

i wasn't i was just going in to collect. the data. and. um you know i. i showed that this one was human there. was another. skull that somebody had at one point it. was called the star child they called it. the star child skull i said you know i. looked at it i looked at the dna. sequencing that they had done i said. this is human. end of story. um. the people who owned the thing at the. time. disagreed with me and then eventually. another group came in and proved that i. was right.

and it's not about debunking it's about. getting the more spectacular and hyped. cases. off the table i mean the reason i got. interested in is because somebody was. hyping it. and not because i wanted to disprove it. but because i just wanted to know and. let's get it off the table because it's. usually the most. extravagant things that are most likely. to be wrong. somewhere. in the rubble will be something. interesting. and so that's what you do you get the. you get the.

the dross off the table. and then somewhere. in the data will be something worth. real inquiry. and that. if you inquire deeply enough will be. extravagant yes exactly and that's what. actually excites scientists is to i mean. you want with the rigor of science to. actually reveal the extravagant and so. look at crispr as probably the most. perfect example of that these weird. sequences in bacterial genomes all.

arrayed one after the other with these. strange sequences around them but when. you looked at the sequences they looked. like viruses. and so how did they get there and lo and. behold after you know a lot of effort. and work well a couple of nobel prizes. went out the door. but these strange. things ended up having extraordinarily. extravagant possibilities. you've also looked at ufo materials you.

are in possession of ufo materials. yourself. claimed ufo materials. alleged geophone materials that's right. some. what's another term weird materials that. don't seem to uh. uh. have a story. they have a story that doesn't seem to. be of natural origins but. it's not. you know. there's a process to proving that and. that process may. uh take decades if not centuries because.

you have to keep pulling it. at the string and discover where they. could possibly come from but anyway you. you're in possession of some. materials of this kind. can you um. describe some of them and maybe also. talk to the process of how you. investigate them how do you analyze them. right so let's say that there's two. classes of materials that i've. been given by people and they're not. given by like the government or anything. just given people who've collected them.

and there's a. reasonable chain of evidence associated. with them that you believe it's not just. a pebble somebody picked up off a road. um. there are almost always things that. people have claimed have either been. dropped off as like some sort of a. leftover material molten metals. or um. they are. from. an object that was released from this so. that kind of. exploded. they're almost always metals.

i have some couple of things that might. be biological that are interesting that. i haven't really spent a lot of time on. yet. when you look at a metal you basically. well okay what are the elements in it. and what's it made of and so there's. pretty standard approaches to doing that. most of them involve a technology called. mass spectrometry uh and there's. probably about five or six different. kinds of mass spectrometry that you. could bring to bear on answering it. and they either tell you depending upon. the limit of the resolution of the.

instrument. they either tell you the elements that. are there. or they tell you the isotopes that are. there and you're interested not just in. knowing whether something is there or. not you're interested in knowing. whether they're uh. you know the. the amounts of it the the and in the. case of. elements. how many different isotopes are there. and and that's kind of where in some of. these cases it gets interesting. right because on in at least one of the. materials.

as we first studied it the isotope. ratios of in this case it was magnesium. are way off normal. and. i just don't know why it doesn't it. doesn't prove anything it just all it. proves is. that. it was probably. accomplished by some kind of an. industrial process. whether it's the result. of a process or whether and and this is. sort of the leftover. or whether it was made that way for a. particular purpose.

i don't know all i know is that. it it was. engineered. that's it. right but then it's. the question is. sort of you go one step deeper why would. you engineer it. right. why and what is the engineered means. there's all kinds of. it could be a byproduct it could be. um.

the main result of an engineering. process. it would be a small part of the. engineering process that is the main. part. well so. the ratios of isotopes for any given. element are basically the result of. stellar processes. uh. a supernova blew up. sometime several tens you know several. billion years ago. uh. that became a cloud. those atoms coalesced gravitationally to.

form another sun. and a ring that became a rocky planet. uh and the ratios of the isotopes were. determined at the time of that. explosion. and so everything in the local. solar system is more or less of that. ratio depending upon certain. gravitational diff but but. by. fragments of a percent not. whole tens of percent difference. so what do humans use isotopes for.

mostly to blow stuff up i mean the vast. majority of the isotopes that have been. made in in the per pound or ton. are things like. certain ratios of plutonium and uranium. to blow stuff up we don't make. or engineer isotopes which it's it's. today is relatively easy to do but it's. still expensive. for any other reason apart from let's. say. uh as uh. anti-cancer we use stable isotopes in.

money these days as a counterfeiting. tool you basically embed certain ratios. of isotopes in to make it harder for. counterfeiters to accomplish. um. and so but other than that we don't do. anything with that so why would you make. grams of such material in this one case. and drop it around on a beach in brazil. so which case we're talking about this. is this is the ubertuba case.

can you describe this case a little bit. further like what material we're talking. about just the full story of the case so. it's an interesting one it's an. interesting one so a fisherman saw an. object. that uh released something or it it. exploded. and it was this. relative you know i've got some big. chunks of it. uh relatively pure magnesium. with obviously something else in it. because magnesium burns so it had. something in it that would other metals.

simple alloy that would prevent it from. from uh basically burning up. um. and so the question is. and so then we had we had two pieces. that came from. um two different chains of custody both. claimed to be from the same object. at least. uh. physically when you look at the two. things they look. the same. right. so we took small fragments of each of. them we put them in an instrument called.

a secondary ion mass spec. which is an extremely sensitive. instrument and it can see down to 0.0001. mass units. uh which is important for. let's say more. arcane reasons but. um it's a sensitive instrument and so. one of the chains of custody we had two. pieces from the same chain of custody. and then two pieces from the other chain. of custody. one of them had completely normal.

uh magnesium isotope ratios magnesium 24. 25 26 and the other was off. not just like slightly off way off and. they were both off to the same extent. so. uh. i mean it was sort of like you had an. internal control. of what was normal then you had this. other one which was which was wrong. and so you're left with. uh that's what kind of an open question. was this a hoax were these two chains of.

custody one of them a hoax that somebody. purposefully introduced those things. because you could do it it would. cost a lot i mean at the time that this. was found i guess the 1970s or so. um might have been earlier i forget. uh the amount that i had would have cost. several tens of thousands of dollars to. make. um. and again it's not something you would. just throw around and why would you do. it in the hope that some guy 30 years. from then.

would. would pick it up and study it that's a. very subtle. subtle. it's a long-term plan. um so so i i just don't know i just. don't know. what to make of it except it's. interesting but it's but so a different. kind of question that you're asking is. what constitutes evidence. right so is is this. sufficient evidence absolutely not. but somebody's put it forward i have the.

time it's my time. i'll study it and i my objective is to. sort of take those that i think are. credible enough. and do a reasonable analysis put it out. there and maybe somebody else will come. up with an idea as to what it is. now what would be better. is some sort of. true. technology right something that is. obviously. we don't have it. you know and. people like. on neil degrasse tyson. and seth shostak have come out.

rightfully. and have said. you know when you show up with. you know. something. really obviously technology that we. don't understand. you know then we'll pay attention. right not just material not just. material a piece of metal. is is interesting. uh but. and several of the things that i've. looked at and things that people other. things that people have come. to me with we found to be completely.

banal or. were actually pieces of aircraft. that were invented back in the 1940s. yeah and so take them off the table see. but. i think um. again i think showing up with technology. that we humans would find completely. novel is actually a really difficult. task for aliens because it obviously. can't be so novel. that we don't recognize it for what it. is for what it is and so and i would say.

most the technology aliens likely have. would be something we don't recognize. so they it's actually a hard problem how. to convince ants. like you first have to understand what. ants are tweeting about. like what they care about. in order to like inject into their. culture. because uh. you know that's why i think. it would be the technology that you. could present is in the space of ideas. is in uh.

it's tried to influence individual. humans and with the encounters right and. try to with this kind of thing. that you mentioned. about uh. us not taking messages about us not. taking care of the world. it's difficult. i mean i to for them to understand you. have to come up with trinkets that. impress us i mean maybe the very. technology. the fascination with the development of. technology and the development of. technology the actual act of innovation.

itself. is the thing that they're communicating. right i mean this is kind of what you. know jacques valet thinks about. is the role of. the control system he calls it the. control system well let me uh ask about. jacques. who is he um you know him who's jacques. valet. what have you learned from him. about life about. about ufos about technology about our.

role in the universe. well i met jacques actually soon after. the whole atacama thing happened. um. i was visited by those people associated. with the government and whatever around. the um. the havanas what ended up mostly being. havana syndrome patients but also. jacques at the same time and they were. actually working behind the scenes with. each other that oh here's this stanford. professor. who is willing to talk about this stuff. and investigate things.

um maybe we should go talk to him and he. he reached out through a colleague and. you know i had lunch actually um at the. rosewood inn um up on. uh near sandhill so jacques is one of. the first openly. active scientists. uh and he's really a scientist in this. area. going back to the 1960s um. and uh. you know he's. put forward a number of ideas.

speculations about what it might be that. people are interacting with and he the. first thing that i learned from him is. this notion of what he called kabuki. theater. that many of the things that people have. seen are i remember reading his books. and thinking he uses this word absurd a. lot. um he said the the things that people. claim they see are absurd. right. a a ship doesn't land. in a farmer's field.

and then come up and knock on the door. and say can i have a glass of water and. these are stories literally out of. newspapers from the 1930s is it's absurd. you know and the other thing that people. say ships don't crash if you're so. technologically advanced you don't crash. it's absurd. that they crash. so. um. he says this is. put on as a show. it's meant to it's an influence. campaign. right it's it's not meant to influence.

individuals it's meant to influence a. culture. as a whole maybe they don't look at us. as individuals maybe they look at us as. an organism. that lives on a planet. right and perhaps rightly so. and so that's how you interact with them. that's how you influence them so that. was one of the first things that kind of. took me back and realized. wow there's actually a maybe there's a. puppet. master behind the scenes. that's. you know doing this influencing that all.

this stuff about aliens is just is not. true per se they're just a. representation of something. that is meant to influence so that was. probably the most interesting thing i. mean the man is brilliant. uh he's also it can be and i'm sorry. jacques he can also be incredibly. annoying. to have a conversation with. because he will pick apart your. arguments or anything that you think you. know and show you why you don't know. what you think you know. and he uses the he used the example that.

for me that is. is is all you need is one. counter example to any conclusion. and you're wrong. and so i learned from him. i mean i'm supposed to be a good. scientist but i learned from him. don't talk about conclusions just talk. about the data. because data's not wrong i mean convince. yourself that the data is not wrong or. not an artifact but be careful about. your conclusions because whatever is. going on it's it's much more complicated.

than we than we imagine. wow that's powerful being able to always. step back because we get we humans get. excited yeah we start to jump to. conclusions from the data but always. step back powerful being able to always. step back because we get we humans get. excited yeah we start to jump to. conclusions from the data but always. step back well in some of my twitter. feeds when i dare to go on twitter. are full of well when are you going to. give us the answer. well you know science is not immediate. you're going to have to be patient and.

even some of my science colleagues have. said well where's the data my answer to. them has been. where's been your work to try to produce. any you know i'm not here to give you. everything on a silver platter. we talked offline how much i love data. and machine learning and so on. and uh it's been really disheartening to. see the the us government. not invest as much as they possibly. could into this whole process so let's. jump. to the most recent thing which is what.

do you make of the report titled. preliminary assessment. unidentified aerial phenomena that was. released by the office of the director. of national intelligence in june 2021 so. this is what's like um. okay we're going to step back and we're. going to like what. where do we stand and where do we hope. the future is what do you make of that. report is it hopeful is it i see it as. very helpful. very hopeful i think the adults are. finally stepping up in and being in.

charge. right in a good sense of adult. what's that in the good sense and the. good sense of adult. um because childlike curiosity is pretty. powerful thing that's true yeah i i it's. but it's also i think the people who. were worried that the populace at large. might run screaming into the streets and. riot. uh you know have. you know they basically the empiric. evidence is they're wrong. you know this. these videos and all these things have. been out for now what five years.

most people don't even know about it. right so as as as hyped as it's been and. all over the newspapers that it's been. and etc you know even tucker carlson has. talked about it many times on his news. program. um joe rogan has a lot of people don't. know about it so i think people if it's. not affecting their day-to-day life. they're going on with their day-to-day. life. so but that said. i think it was an important. sea change. in the internal discussions going on in.

the government because. and the reason being. that. i think this is actually partly true. with the the maturation of human social. technology. it was becoming. so obvious that this stuff was showing. up again and again and again around our. ships they just couldn't keep it quiet. anymore. right and so it's like we need to do. something about it and lou elizondo and. chris and others to their great credit. found the right angle. to talk about this it says well okay.

let's say it's not. out there maybe it's the russians the. chinese or somebody else we should know. about this because we damn sure no it's. not us. so. that to me. is an important thing to to finally be a. little bit more open about. the matter. but. like i often say i'm not looking for. people to give me permission to do. anything i'm just going to do the. analysis myself with what i have avi. loeb has taken the same approach he said.

i'm not going to wait for the government. to give me. telescopic information about. technologies or. things that might be even on our own. solar system i'm just going to collect. it myself. and and that's the right way to do it. right don't wait for somebody else to. give it to you. it's also possible to. inspire a large number of people to do a. wider spread data collection yes you. yourself can't. do a large enough data collection that.

would if you're talking about anomalous. events right. right you you should be. collecting high resolution data. about everything that's happening on. earth in terms of like at. in terms of the kind of. things that would indicate to you a. strong signal that something weird. happened here and this is why. you know governments can be good at. funding large-scale efforts yes i mean. you know nasa and and so on working with. spacex uh with blue origin.

uh. to you know fund. uh capitalistic sort of fun companies. fun company efforts to do huge moonshot. projects. and in the same way do huge moonshot. data collection efforts in terms of ufos. i mean we're not it needs to be like 10x. like one or two orders of magnitude more. funding exactly to do this kind of thing. and i i understand on the flip side of. that if you make it about. what are the russians whether the.

chinese doing. you know make it a question of. geopolitics. it gets touchy because now you you're. kind of taken away from the realm of. science. and picking it military making it. military some of the greatest this is. what makes me as an engineer. makes me truly sad that some of the. greatest engineering work ever done. is by lockheed martin and we will never. know about it yeah i agree i agree i i. wish. we were it was different but um it's the.

world we live in. um you know but related to that uap task. force. announcement that you just said you know. the bill was passed in the department of. defense and now it formally establishes. an office. to. collate that information and also to be. transparent about it. money is now set aside. right what do you think of just in case. people don't know the dod establishing. new department to study uh ufos.

called airborne naming come on but yes. airborne object identification and. management synchronization group hey do. you know how to pronounce that no i do. not no aoi msg it's stupid and it's. renamed but ay msg. ao. all right it's directed by the under. secretary of defense for intelligence. and security what do you make of this. office do are you hopeful about this. office i think there's still a tug of. war going on behind the scenes as to. who's going to control this.

uh but i do know though that money has. been set aside that will be. used to uh. make. things. more public. right to start to get uh others involved. and um. you know there's i'm involved with an. effort to get other academics involved. so you think there might be some of that. money could be directed towards funding. maybe like groups like yours. to do some research right so they would. be open to that you think i hope so i.

mean it nothing is set in stone yet so. you know i and i'm not hiding anything. because i just don't know anything. right but i do um. i do think that. there will be. uh public efforts now they're going. there there are being set up other. private efforts. to bring monies involved and to use that. to leverage. uh and get access to some of the. internal resources as well. so um what you're seeing is uh kind of.

an ecosystem building up. uh in a positive sense uh of people who. are willing to do the research. so you know before it it would be you. couldn't even go to a scientist and ask. them to help. now. if there's money as i said before. scientists are essentially capitalist we. go where the money is you know. i mean the work that i've done i did out. of my own pocket. and probably about 50 60 70 000. of money went into.

the paper we published yeah out of my. own pocket um. and you know but the amount of money. that needs to go in is in the in at. least the few millions to do a proper. analysis of these materials. the work i know that the galileo project. is involved with uh it's probably in the. in the you know five to ten million. range to get stuff done but that's. actually a relatively modest amount of. money. to accomplish. something that has been in the zeitgeist.

for. decades. i should also push back a little bit on. something you probably will agree with. you said scientists are essentially. capitalists. what i've noticed is there's certainly. an influence of money but oftentimes. when you're talking about basic research. in basic science. the money. is a little bit a little bit ambiguous. to what direction you're doing the. research in and the scientists get. really good. at telling a narrative of like yeah yeah.

we're fulfilling. the purpose of this funding but we're. actually they end up doing really what. they're curious about yes and of course. you cannot deviate like if you're. getting funded to study penguins in. antarctica you can't start building. rockets but probably you can because. you'll. convince some kind you'll concoct a. narrative saying. rockets are really important for. studying penguins in the entire right i. i think that's actually. this is one thing i think people don't.

generally understand about the. scientific mind. is i don't know how capitalistic it is. because if it was they would start an. effing company no no no no i mean when i. met capitalist i didn't mean in the uh. they'll they'll start companies per se i. mean. we can only do the research where. there's money and so from from. you know maybe it's a a bad use of the. term capitalist so. but the. we will only do the research where. there's money i mean why do most people.

work. uh many biologists uh work in cancer. research. because there's a lot of money there. it's an important problem. but. i might not have ever gotten involved in. it if there wasn't money i might have. gone and i was going to be a botanist. when i when i was a kid that's what i. wanted to do. um. so. having money available. will bring people to bear now another. mistake that's often actually made i.

think by the lay public about science. is that people think that we're paid to. do things just as you said i get a. research grant and luckily from the nih. they give you a fair amount of latitude. uh i will go my own way and i'll find. something i might have proposed. something. but i'll end up somewhere entirely. different by the end of the project and. that's how good science is done you. follow the you follow the data you. follow the results. um. and so that's what i'm hoping can be.

done here i think the worst kind of. thing that could be done with this. subject area is to put it inside another. company. where. they have a set plan of what it is. they're going to do and the scientists. either tell do what the executives tell. them to do or not. that isn't how anything will really get. discovered. put it get it out into the public. get open minds thinking about it and. then publishing on it and doing the. right kind of work that's how real.

progress will be made with this. let's again put put our sort of. philosophical hats on do you think the. us government or some other government. is in possession. of. something. of extraterrestrial origin that is far. more impressive. than anything we've seen. in the public. if i i've not seen anything personally. but if i believe the people who i don't. think can lie.

yes. this is how does that make you feel in. terms of the way government works the. way our human civilization works that. there might be things like that. and we're not they're not public is is. there a hopeful message for transparency. that's possible like if you were if you. were uh in power and i'm not saying. president because maybe the president is. not the source of power here. would you release this information in. some way or form yes.

if i were. i i think it would i think it's. i think it's something that can bring. humanity together. right i think that. knowledge of this kind of thing to know. that we are. you know we are more alike than we are. different. in comparison to whatever this is. is uh. is a positive thing for us. um. and to know. you know i don't necessarily care that.

the government has been hiding it and i. think you know people who've been. talking about what we should give. government officials or whatever amnesty. i think that's probably the right. the right answer we don't this isn't a. time to look back and say you did. something wrong you did whatever you did. because that was the data you had. available to you at the time and those. you had good reasons for doing it now if. your reasons were selfish. if your reasons were you wanted to do it. because you wanted to monetize it. yourself. uh. to the to your benefit but against that.

of others then i think maybe there's. something else that could be said but. you know. an opportunity to get all this. information out if i were in charge. i would i would try to do it now. i might be shown something though that. says there's a reason why you don't want. to let anybody know this. maybe you don't want everybody have. having access to unlimited. uh energy because maybe you might turn. it into a bomb. or something that. gives you hints that something like.

unlimited energy is possible but you. haven't figured it out yet and if you. make it public. maybe some of the other governments you. have tensions with will figure it out. first right i mean. it's kind of an arms race going on i. think in all forms and it's it makes me. truly sad because uh it's obvious. that um. for example the origins of the covid. virus. it's obvious to me that the chinese. government whatever the origins are.

is interested in. not releasing information about it. because it can only be bad for the. chinese government. and every government thinks like this. like. every actually this has been. disappointment to me. talking to pr folks at companies. like they're always nervous. they're always like conservative right. right in the sense like well if we. release more stuff.

it can only be bad and then an elon musk. character comes along who tweets. ridiculous memes. and doesn't give a fuck. and i've been encouraging ceos i've been. encouraging people to be transparent and. of course government national security. is really. like another level it's human lives at. stake. but. let's start at the lighter case of just. releasing some of the awesome insides of. the how. how the sausage is made the technology.

and being transparent about it because. it excites people. it uh. like you said it it connects people and. it inspires them. it's good for the brand it's good for. everybody i i honestly think this kind. of idea that people will steal the. information and we use it against you is. is an idea that's not true in his idea. of the 20th century like you said some. of the benefits of the social media. uh.

our our social world is that. transparency is beneficial and i hope. governments will learn that less and of. course they're the usually the last to. learn such lessons right. what do you make of bob lazar's story in. terms of possession of aircraft do you. believe him i don't believe in the bob. lazar. story to be quite honest i mean. jeremy corbell has done a great job. interviewing him and. uh has done some you know beautiful.

uh documentaries. um. i just don't i. i don't know how to interpret it. and um. you know and again there's some of the. people who. i fraternize with. think it's all rubbish. uh yeah but maybe he's right but i don't. know i mean. the problem is. and um. this is a little bit different about how. i approach the whole area than a lot of. others. i'm less interested in going over.

old paperwork. and all these old histories of who said. what you know the whole he said she said. of the history of of ufos. i'm a scientist. i worked on the brain. area because it's something i can. collect data on i can go back to the. same individual collect their mri again. and redo it i can hand that mri to. somebody else they can analyze it i can. get materials i can analyze them i can. get some of these skeletons i won't.

touch any skeletons ever again but i can. analyze it and somebody else can. reproduce the data yeah i mean. that's what i'm good at and so. you know i'm i i i'm not going to go. into the whole i'm not a historian. yeah that's true but there's a human. side to it. i want. sometimes i think with these because. again anomalous rare events. some of the data is inextricably. connected to humans. the observations right. um i mean i hope in the future.

you know. that that sensory data. will not be polluted by human. subjectivity but. you know that's still that's still. powerful data even uh direct. observations like if you talk about. about pilots. so it's an interesting question to me. whether brah bazaar is telling the truth. whether he believes he's telling the. truth too. and what also. what impact his story and stories like. his have on the willingness of. governments to be transparent.

and so on so. you know you have to credit his story. for captivating the imagination of. people and that getting the conversation. going he's maintained his story for all. these years with little to no change. that i'm aware of so. um but there's so many other people who. are let's say experts in that story. um their gut you know you accumulate us. a set of sort of uh. circumstantial.

evidence where your gut will say that. somebody is uh not telling the truth. yeah you mentioned uh avi loeb. i forgot to ask you about a moa. you know because you've analyzed. specimens from here on earth what do you. make of that one. and what do you make broadly of our. efforts to look. look at rocks essentially or look at. objects. flying around. in our solar system is that a valuable. pursuit or maybe most of the stories are.

can be. most of the fascinating things can be. discovered here on earth or on other. nearby planets. just going to omomoa. uh. you know i think. avi's insight. is an interesting speculation right. like i was saying before people can. sometimes look at something and not see. it for what it is. many would just look at that and say oh. it's an asteroid and dismiss it there. was something. odd about the data that avi picked up on.

and said well here's an alternative. explanation that doesn't fit that. actually better fits the models than it. just being a rock. you know and to his credit. he just has. ignored the critics because he believes. the data is real and is using that then. as a battering ram. to go after other things so i think. that's i think that's great. you know yeah. what what is his main conclusion does he. say. it could be of uh alien extraterrestrial.

origin is that well that's one of the. things i mean he you know he's explained. how it could be a light sail. um. and a light sail is certainly within. near human capabilities to make such a. thing i think. yuri milner is he's a russian. billionaire. he's involved i think in a project to. make light sales with laser you know to. to. launch them with laser power essentially.

uh towards alpha centauri. right so it's something that. humans. could make. i think avi's proposal is perfectly. within the realm of possibility i mean. sadly the thing is you know now nearly. out of our solar system yes i mean to me. that's inspiring to. do greater levels of data collection. yeah in our solar system but also here. on earth it just seems like we should be. constantly collecting collecting data. because the tools of software that we're. developing get better and better at.

dealing with huge amounts of data it's. changing the nature of science i mean. collect all of the data right collect. the data i mean i i um the galileo. project asked me over the weekend to. join and i did. so um you know i'm not a specialist in. any of the stuff that they're doing. uh but you know in looking at the list. of people who are on there there are. really no biologists on there so at some. point if my expertise is required for. something what's the goal in the vision.

of the galileo project better talk to. avi but my understanding and just. actually looking at the uh. at the sort of the bylaws this morning. literally just got them. um is uh number one collect the data on. uap and number two collect data on uh. local. potentially. local technological artifacts i need to. look into this this is fascinating and. the is heading the galileo project yeah. have you spoken to him i've on this. podcast yes that was be i believe is.

before he was headed it was a new. creation yeah the galileo project was i. think it's about six or seven months old. now okay you know amazing and he's. getting a group of scientists together. oh yeah about 100 oh it's it's that's. actually i am. i was looking at some of their stuff. over the weekend i'm i'm shocked at the. level of organization that they've. already got put together that's amazing. it looks like. a moonshot project i mean i've been. involved with a lot of nih uh large nih. projects. um which involve a lot of people in. coordination and uh.

they're putting it together. so. you're. extremely well published. in a lot of. um the fields we began this conversation. with. so you're legit scientist. but yet you're keeping an open mind to a. lot of ideas that um. that. maybe require you to take a leap.

outside of the conventional. so what advice would you give to young. people today that are. you know in high school or in college. that are. dreaming of having impact in science or. maybe in whatever career path that goes. outside of the conventional that really. does something new. if you believe in something you believe. that an idea is. valuable.

or you haven't approached something. don't let others shame you into not. doing it. as i've said shame is a. societal control device to get other. people to do what they want you to do. rather than what you want to do. so shame sometimes is good to stop you. from doing something unethical or wrong. but shame also is something that is. circumscribing. your environment i've never let people. who've told me you know you shouldn't do.

that line of science you should be. ashamed of yourself for even thinking. that give me a break. i'm you know why is it wrong to ask. questions about this area. what's wrong with asking the question. frankly you're the person who's wrong. for trying to stop these questions. you're the person who's. almost acting like a cultist. you basically have closed your mind. to what the possibilities are and if i'm. not hurting anybody. and if it could lead to an advance and.

if it's my time. why does it bother you i mean i had a. very well-known. scientist once tell me that i was going. to hurt my career talking about this. if anything it's enhanced my career. i have a couple questions on this so. first of all just a small comment on. that. i've realized that. it feels like a lot of the progress in. science is done by people pursuing an. idea that another senior faculty would. probably say this is going to hurt your.

career. i think it's actually a pretty good. indicator that there's something. interesting when. when a senior wise. uh person tells you this is going to. hurt your career i i think that's just. the one as a small if i were to give. advice to young people if somebody. senior tells you this is going to hurt. your career um think twice about taking. their advice yeah. i mean i think that's the primary thing. um and the other i tell my own students. you know i have a lab of about 20 30. people and has been that big since 1992.

people come and go. is. it's not the data that falls in line. that's is it that's so interesting it's. the. it's the spot off the graph. that you want to understand yeah that's. that's it you wanna when something is. way off the graph. that's the interesting thing because. that's usually where discovery is. and the number of times that i've. stopped people in my lab and said wait a.

second go back a few slides. what was that. and then it ended up being something. interesting that made their careers. i i could you know count on. a few hands. yeah get excited by the extraordinary. that's outside of the thing that you uh. that you've done in the past right um. just on a personal psychological level. is is there. you know i'm sure at stanford i'm sure.

in you exploring some of these ideas. there's pressure. how do you um. how do you not give in to the pressure. how do you not give in to the people. that say uh. like uh that push you away from these. topics that um. what you said shame i just point to my. successes. i say what you know you're the ones who. told me not to start companies all this. time ago. uh you know and now you're the one. coming to me for advice for how to start.

a company yeah. right um. but the. from the scientific area it's it's. you're wanting to take something off the. table that might be an explanation. how. how is that. the scientific method so you i reverse. shame them reversing them. so purely with reason through. conversation you're able to do that so. it doesn't feel because to me it would. just feel lonely there's there's a. community yeah there's a community of.

science and you know when you're working. on something that's outside a particular. uh. conventional way of thinking it could be. lonely i mean there there's a you know. in the ai field. if you're working on neural networks in. the 90s it could be lonely. i have met some of the most fascinating. people ever that had i stayed the. conventional track i would never have. met. i mean truly yeah uh. brilliant people because of this.

so you know it is. for those worried about. well should i step outside of my. comfort zone you're going to meet some. really interesting people and you know. because i'm open about this area. you know i'll go and give a talk you. know in boston harvard or mit. and at dinner. inevitably. this subject comes up. and inevitably somebody else at the. table will admit both that they're.

interested or that they've seen. something. and suddenly the whole tone of the. conversation changes. it's kind of like there's safety in. numbers. and uh. and then or i've had people come to me. afterwards after. dinner and say hey. you know i i don't talk about this. openly but. so the number of scientists. who. who know that there's something. else going on is much larger. than the scientific community would like.

to think. that's a really powerful one which is i. don't talk about this. you know openly. but here's what i believe and you'd be. surprised how many people speak like. this and hold those beliefs and i am. optimistic about. social media in a more connected world. to reveal more and more like us not to. have these two personalities where like. this public and private one. we've mentioned the big questions of the. origins of the universe.

what do you think is the meaning of this. whole thing. for us humans. our human existence here on earth or. just at the individual level of a human. life. what. gary is the meaning of life. i think that what we're going. through today with this realization it's. uh. it's kind of like. you've lived on an island. your whole life. and. you've looked across the ocean and.

you've never imagined there was another. island with anybody else on it and then. suddenly. a ship with sales shows up. uh you don't understand it but you. realize that suddenly your world just. got a lot bigger. i think we're in one of those moments. right now. that our world view our. galactic view is opening right to. something a little bit bigger and not. just that there might be. somebody else.

but that there's something else. and what it is is yet to be understood. and the fact that it isn't understood to. me is what's exciting. because i can fill it with my dreams. and uh. this discovery our world might uh. is about to get. a lot more humbling. and a lot more fascinating once we look. out and realize we were on an island all. along it makes us both smaller but.

larger at the same time to me. you know i i. can look outside at the stars and think. and imagine what else might be out there. and although i will i know that i will. never see it all. it excites me to know that it's there. well uh gary. uh both to respect your time and also. because at 12 i turned into a princess. uh. let me just say and uh thank you for.

doing everything you're doing. as a great scientist as a person willing. to reject the conventional and thank you. for spending your extremely valuable. time with me today thanks for talking. thanks so much it was great talking. thanks for listening to this. conversation with gary nolan to support. this podcast please check out our. sponsors in the description. and now let me leave you with some words. from stanislav lem in solaris. how do you expect to communicate with. the ocean.

when we can't even understand one. another. thanks for listening and hope to see you. next time. you.