Francis Collins: National Institutes of Health (NIH) | Lex Fridman Podcast #238

the following is a conversation with. francis collins director of the nih the. national institutes of health appointed. and reappointed to the role by three. presidents obama trump and biden. he oversees 27 separate institutes and. centers including nyad which makes him. anthony fauci's boss. at the nih francis helped launch and led. a huge number of projects that pushed. the frontiers of science health and. medicine including one of my favorites.

the brain initiative that seeks to map. the human brain and understand how the. function arises from neural circuitry. before the nih francis led the human. genome project one of the largest and. most ambitious efforts in the history of. science. given all that francis is a humble. thoughtful kind man. and because of this to me he's one of. the best representatives of science in. the world he is a man of god and yet.

also a friend of the late christopher. hitchens who called him quote one of the. greatest living americans. this is a lex friedman podcast to. support it please check out our sponsors. in the description and now here's my. conversation with francis collins. science at his best is a source of hope. so for me it's been difficult to watch. as it has during the pandemic become at. times a source of division. what i would love to do in this. conversation with you.

is touch some difficult topics and do so. with empathy and humility so that we may. begin to regain a sense of trust in. science and then it may once again. become a source of hope. i hope that's okay with you i love the. goal. let's start with some hard questions. you called for quote thorough expert. driven and objective inquiry into the. origins of coven 19 so let me ask. is there a reasonable chance that covet. 19 leaked from a lab.

i can't exclude that i think it's fairly. unlikely i wish we had more ability to. be able to ask questions of the chinese. government and. learn more about what kind of records. might have been in the lab that we've. never been able to see. but most likely this was a natural. origin of a virus probably starting in a. bat perhaps traveling through some other. intermediate yet to be identified host. and finding its way into humans. is answering this question within the. realm of science do you think will we.

ever know i think we might know if we. find that intermediate host. and there has not yet been a thorough. enough. investigation to say that that's not. going to happen. and remember it takes a while to do this. with sars it was 14 years before we. figured out it was the civet cat that. was the intermediate host with mers it. was a little quicker to discover it was. the camel. with sarsko v2 there's been some looking. but especially now with everything. really tense between the us and china if.

there's looking going on we're not. getting told about it. do you think it's a scientific question. or a political question it's a. scientific question but it has political. implications. so the world is full of scientists that. are working together but in the. political space in the political. political science space. there's tensions. what is it like to do great science in a. time of a pandemic when there's. political tensions it's very unfortunate. pasteur said science knows no one.

country. he was right about that my whole career. in genetics especially. is dependent upon international. collaboration between scientists as a. way. to make discoveries get things done. scientists by their nature. like to be involved in international. collaborations the human genome project. for heaven's sake 2 400 scientists in. six countries working together not. worrying who is going to get the credit.

giving all the data away i was the. person who was supposed to keep all that. coordinated it was a wonderful. experience. and that included china that was sort of. their first real entry into a big. international. big science kind of project and they did. their part. it's very different now. continue on the line of difficult. questions. especially difficult ethical questions. in 2014. us put a hold on gain and function.

research in response to a number of. laboratory biosecurity incidents. including anthrax smallpox and influenza. in december 2017. nih lifted this ban. because quote gain of functional. research is important in helping us. identify understand and develop. strategies and effective countermeasures. against rapidly evolving pathogens that. pose a threat to public health. all difficult questions have arguments. on both sides can you argue the pros and. cons of getting a function research with.

viruses. i can. and first let me say this term gain of. function. is causing such confusion that i need to. take a minute and just sort of talk. about what the common scientific. use of that term is and where it is very. different when we're talking about the. current oversight of potentially. dangerous human pathogens. as you know in science we're doing gain. of function experiments all the time.

we support a lot of cancer immunotherapy. at nih. right here in our clinical center there. are trials going on where people's. immune cells are taken out of their body. treated with a genetic therapy that revs. up their ability to discover the cancer. that that patient currently has maybe. even at stage four and then give them. back. as those little ninja warriors uh go. after the cancer and it sometimes works. dramatically that's a gain of function.

you gave that patient a gain in their. immune function that may have saved. their life. so gotta be careful not to say oh gain. of function is bad. most of what we do. in science that's good involves quite a. bit of the hat. and we are all living with gains of. function every day i have a gain of. function because i'm wearing these. eyeglasses otherwise i would not be. seeing you as clearly i'm happy for that. gain of function. so. that's where a lot of confusion has. happened the kind of gain of function. which is now subject to very rigorous.

and very carefully defined oversight. is when you are working with an. established human pathogen that is known. to be potentially causing a pandemic. and you are enhancing or potentially. enhancing its transmissibility or its. virulence. we call that epp. enhanced potential pandemic pathogen. that requires. this very stringent oversight worked out.

over three years. by the national. science advisory board on biosecurity. that needs to be looked at by a panel. that goes well beyond nih to decide are. the benefits worth the risks in that. situation. most of the time. it's not worth the risk only three times. uh in the last three or four years uh. have experiments been given permission. to go forward they were all an influenza.

so i will argue that if you're worried. about the next pandemic. the more you know about the coming enemy. the better chance you have to recognize. when trouble is starting. and so if you can do it safely. studying influenza. or coronaviruses like sars mers and. sarsko v2. would be a good thing to be able to know. about but you have to be able to do it. safely because we all know. lab accidents can happen and i mean look. at sars where there have been lab.

accidents and people have gotten sick as. a result. we don't want to take that chance unless. there's a compelling scientific reason. that's why we have this very stringent. oversight. the experiments being done at the wuhan. institute of virology. as a sub-award to our grant to eco. health. in new york. did not meet that standard of requiring. that kind of stringent oversight i want. to be really clear about that because. there's been so much thrown around about.

it. was it gain a function well in the. standard use of that term that you would. use in science in general you might say. it was but in the use of that term that. applies to this very. specific. example of a potential pandemic pathogen. absolutely not. so nothing went on there that should not. have happened based upon the oversight. there was an instance. where the grantee institution failed to.

notify us about the result of an. experiment that they were supposed to. tell us where they. mixed and matched uh some viral genomes. and got a somewhat larger viral load as. a result but it was not epp it was not. getting into that zone that would have. required this higher level of scrutiny. it was all bat viruses these were not. human pathogens. so they didn't cross a threshold within. that gray area that makes for an eppp. they did not and anybody who's willing.

to take the time. to look at what epp means and what those. experiments were would have to agree. with what i just said what is the. biggest reason it didn't cross that. threshold is it because it wasn't. jumping to humans. is it because it did not have a. sufficient increase in virulence and. transmissibility what's your sense. eppp only applies. to agents that are known human pathogens. of potent of pandemic potential.

these were all bat viruses derived in. the wild. not shown to be infectious to humans. just looking at what happened if you. took four different bat viruses and you. tried moving the spike protein gene from. one into one of the others to see. whether it would bind better to the ace2. receptor that doesn't get across that. threshold and let me also say for those. who are. trying to connect the dots here which is. the most troubling part of this and say. well this is how sarsko v2 got started.

that is absolutely demonstrably false uh. these bat viruses that were being. studied had only about 80 percent. similarity in their genomes to sars cov2. they were like decades away in. evolutionary terms. and it is really irresponsible for. people to claim otherwise. speaking of people who claim otherwise. rand paul. what do you make of the battle of wars. between senator rand paul and dr anthony.

fauci over this particular point. i don't want to talk about specific. members of congress but i will say it's. really unfortunate that tony fauci who. is the epitome of a dedicated public. servant. has now somehow been targeted for. political reasons. as somebody that. certain figures are trying to discredit. perhaps to try to distract from their. own failings. this never should have happened here's a. person who's dedicated his whole life uh.

to trying to prevent illnesses from. infectious diseases including hiv. in the 1980s and 90s and now. probably the most. knowledgeable infectious disease. physician in the world and also a really. good communicator. is out there telling the truth about. where we are with sarsko v2. to certain political figures who don't. want to hear it and who are therefore. determined to discredit him. and that is disgraceful so with.

politicians there they often play games. with black and white. they try to sort of uh use. the gray areas of science and then paint. their own picture. but i have a question about the gray. areas of science so like you mentioned. gain of function is a term there's very. specific scientific meaning but it also. has a more general term and it's very. possible to argue that the. not to argue not the way politicians. argue but just as human beings and.

scientists that there was a gain of. function achieved. at the wuhan institute of. biology but it didn't cross a threshold. i mean there's a it's it's uh it but it. could have too so here's the thing when. you do these kinds of experiments. unexpected results may be achieved and. that's the gray area of science you're. you're taking risks with such. experiments. and i am very uncomfortable that we. can't.

discuss the uncertainty in the gray area. of this. oh i'm comfortable discussing the gray. area what i'm uncomfortable with is. people deciding to define for themselves. what that threshold is based on sort of. some political argument the threshold. was very explicitly laid out. everybody agreed to that. in the basis of this three years of. deliberation so that's what it is if. that threshold needs to be reconsidered. let's reconsider it but let's not try to.

take an experiment that's already been. done and decide that the threshold isn't. what it was because that that really is. doing a disservice to the whole process. i wish there was a discussion even in. response to. uh rand paul and i know we're not. talking about specific senators but just. that particular case i'm saying stuff. here i wish there's an opportunity to. talk about. given the current threshold this is not. gain of function. but maybe we need to reconsider the. threshold and have an action that's an. opportunity for discussion about the. ethics of gain or function you said that.

there was three studies that passed that. threshold with influenza that's a. fascinating human question scientific. question about ethics because. you're playing like you said there's uh. there's pros and cons. you're taking risks here to prevent. horribly destructive viruses in the. future. but you also. are risking creating such viruses in the. future with nuclear weapons and nuclear. energy.

you are. nuclear energy. promises a lot of positive effects and. yet you're taking risks here. with uh mutually sure destruction uh. nations possessing nuclear weapons oh my. you're a lot i hope we're not going. there well we're not but. a lot of people argue that that's the. reason we've nuclear weapons is the. reason we've prevented world wars. and yet they also have the risk of. starting world wars and this is what we. have to be honest about. with the with the benefits of risks of.

science that you have to. make that calculation of what are the. pros and what are the cons i'm totally. with you but i want to reassure you lex. that this is not an issue that's been. ignored yes that this issue about the. kind of gain of function that might. result in a serious human pathogen has. been front and center in many. deliberations for a decade or more. involved a lot of my time along the way. by the way and has been discussed. publicly on multiple occasions including.

two major meetings of the national. academy of sciences. getting input from everybody and. ultimately arriving at our current. framework now. we actually back in january of 2020 just. before covet 19 changed everything. had planned and even charged that same. national uh. science advisory by board on biosecurity. to reconvene and look at the current. framework and say do we have it right. let's look at the experience over those.

three years and say is the threshold too. easy too hard. do we need to reconsider it let's look. at the experience kovit came along the. members of the board said please we're. all infectious disease experts we don't. have time for this right now but i think. the time is right to do this i'm totally. supportive of that and that should be. just as public a discussion as you can. imagine about what are the benefits and. the risk and if somebody decided. ultimately this came together and said. we just shouldn't be doing these. experiments under any circumstances if. that was the conclusion well that would.

be the conclusion but it hasn't been so. far. if we can briefly look out into the next. hundred years on this. i apologize for the existential. questions. but. it seems obvious to me. that as gain of function type of. research and development becomes easier. and cheaper. it will become greater and greater risk. so if it doesn't no longer need to be.

contained. within the laboratories of high security. it feels like this is one of the. greatest threats facing human. civilization do you worry that at some. point in the future a leaked man-made. virus may destroy. most of human civilization. i do worry about the risks and. at the moment where we have the greatest. control the greatest oversight. is when this is federally funded. research. but as you're alluding there's no reason.

to imagine that's the only place that. this kind of activity would go on. if there was an evil source that wished. to create a virus that was highly. pathogenic in their garage. the technology does get easier. and there is no international oversight. about this either that you could say has. the same stringency as what we have in. the united states so yes that is a. concern. it would take. a seriously deranged group or person.

to undertake this on purpose uh given. the likelihood that they too uh would go. down we. don't imagine there are going to be. bioweapons that only kill your enemies. and don't kill you sorry we're too much. alike for that to work. so. i don't see it as an imminent risk. there's lots of uh scary novels and. movies written about it but i do think. it's something we have to consider what.

are all the things that ought to be. watched you may not know that if. somebody is ordering. a particular oligonucleotide. from one of the main suppliers and it. happens to match smallpox. they're going to get caught. so there is. effort underway to try to track any. nefarious actions that might be going on. in the united states or international is. there an international collaboration of. trying to track this stuff there is some. i wish it were stronger.

this is a general issue like in terms of. do we have a mechanism particularly when. it comes to ethical issues. to be able to decide what's allowable. and what's not and enforce it i mean. look where we are with germline genome. editing for humans for instance there's. no enforcement mechanism there's just. bully pulpits and governments that get. to decide for themselves so you talked. about evil what about incompetence does. that worry you i was born in the soviet. union. my dad a physicist worked at chernobyl.

that comes to mind that wasn't evil i. was. i don't know what word you want to put. it maybe incompetence is too harsh maybe. it's the inherent incompetence of. bureaucracy i don't know but for. whatever reason there was an accident. does that worry you of course it does. we know that sars for instance did. manage to leak out of a lab in china two. or three times. and at least in some instances people. died fortunately quickly contained. all one can do in that circumstance.

because you need to. study the virus and understand it in. order to keep it from causing a broader. pandemic but you need to insist. upon the kind of biosecurity the bsl 2 3. and 4 framework under which those. experiments have to be done. and certainly at nih we're extremely. rigorous about that but you can't count. on every human being. to always do exactly what they're. supposed to so there's a risk there. which is another reason why if we're. contemplating supporting research on.

pathogens that might be the next. pandemic. you have to factor that in not just. whether people are going to do something. on that we couldn't have predicted where. all of a sudden they created a virus. that's much worse without knowing they. were going to do that but also just. having an accident that's that's in the. mix when those uh estimates are done. about whether the risk is worth it or. not. continuing online of difficult questions. we're gonna get to fun stuff after a. while we will soon i promise.

you are the director of the nih. you are dr anthony fauci's technically. his boss yep you have stood behind him. you have supported him just like you did. already in this conversation. it is painful for me to see division and. distrust. but. many people in politics and elsewhere. have called for anthony fauci to be. fired. when there's such calls of distrust in.

public about a leader like anthony fauci. who should garner trust do you think. he should be fired absolutely not. to do so would be basically to give. the. opportunity. for those who want to make up stories. about anybody. to destroy them there is nothing. in the ways in which tony fauci has been. targeted that it's based upon truth. how could we then.

accept those cries. for his firing as having legitimacy. it's a circular argument they've decided. they don't like tony so they make up. stuff and they twist. comments that he's made about things. like gain a function where he's. referring to the very specific gain of. function that's covered by this policy. and they're trying to say he lied to the. congress that's simply not true they. don't like the fact that tony changes. the medical recommendations about what.

to do with covet 19 over the space of. more than a year. and they call that flip-flopping and you. can't trust the guy because he says one. thing last year and one thing this year. well the science has changed. delta variant has changed everything you. don't want him to be saying the same. thing he did a year ago that would be. wrong now it was the best we could do. then people don't understand that or. else they don't want to understand that. so when you basically whip up a largely. political argument against a scientist.

and hammer at it over and over again to. the point where he now has to have 24 7. security to protect him against people. who really want to do violence to him. for that to be a reason to say that then. he should be fired is to hand the evil. forces the victory i will not do that. yet there's something difficult i'm. going to try to express to you. so. it may be your guitar playing. uh it may be something else.

but there's a humility to you it may be. because you're a man of god there's a. humility to you. that. garners trust. and. when you're in a leadership position. representing science especially in. catastrophic events like the pandemic. it feels like as a leader you have to go. far above and beyond your usual duties.

and i think there's no question that. anthony falci has delivered on his. duties. but it feels like he needs to go above. as a science communicator and if there's. a large number of people. that are that are distrusting him. it's also his responsibility to garner. their trust to gain their trust. as a as a person who's the face of. science do you are you torn on this the. responsibility. of anthology of yourself to represent.

science. not just the communication of advising. what should be done. but. giving people hope giving people trust. in science. and alleviating division. do you think that's also a. responsibility of a leader or is that. unfair to ask. i think the best way you give people. trust is to tell them the truth. and so they recognize that when you're. sharing information it's the best you've. got at that point and tony fauci does.

that at every moment. i don't think him expressing more. humility. would change the fact that they're. looking for a target of somebody to. blame. to basically distract people from the. failings of their own political party. maybe i'm less targeted not because of a. difference in oh the way in which i. convey the information i'm less visible. if tony were out of the scene and i was. placed in that role i'd probably be.

seeing a ratcheting up of that same. targeting. i would like to believe. that if. tony fauci said. that when i originally made. recommendations not to wear masks. that was given on the on our best. available data and now we know that is a. mistake. so admit with humility that there's an. error that's not. that's not actually correct. but that's a that's a statement of. humility and i would like to believe.

despite the attacks. he would win a lot of people over with. that. so a lot of people as you're saying. would use that see that here we go. here's that dr anthony fauci making. mistakes how can we trust him at. anything i believe if he was. the sp that public display of humility. to say that i made an error. that would win a lot of people over. that's my that's kind of.

my sense to face the fire of the attacks. from politics you have like politicians. will attack no matter what but the. question is the people. would you to win over the people that. the biggest concern i've had. is that there was this. distrust of science that's been brewing. and i'm. maybe you can correct me but i'm a. little bit unwilling to fully blame the. politicians because politicians play. their games no matter what. it just feels like this was an.

opportunity. to inspire people with the power of. science the development of the vaccines. no matter what you think of those. vaccines is one of the greatest. accomplishments in the history of. science indeed. and. the fact that that's not inspiring. listen i host a podcast whenever i say. positive stuff about the vaccine i get. to hear. a lot of different opinions i bet you do. the fact that i do is a big problem to. me because it's an incredible.

incredible accomplishment of science. and so i. yeah i i i'm sorry but i have to put. responsibility on the leaders. even if it's not their mistakes that's. what the leadership is that's what. leadership is you take responsibility. for the situation i wonder if there's. something that could have been done. better. to. give people hope. that science will save us as opposed to. science will divide us.

i think you have more confidence. in the ability to get beyond our current. divisions uh than i do after seeing just. how deep and dark they have become. tony fauci has said multiple times the. recommendation about not wearing masks. was for two reasons. a shortage of masks which were needed in. hospitals and. a lack of realization early in the. course of the epidemic. that this was a virus that could heavily.

infect asymptomatic people. as that changed he changed now did he. make an error no he was making a. judgment based on the data available at. the time but he certainly made that. clear over and over again. it has not stopped uh those who would. like to demonize him from saying well he. just flip-flopped. he you can't trust a guy he says one. thing today and one thing tomorrow. well masks is a tricky one so it is a. tricky one early on i'm a co-author and.

a paper one of one of many but this was. a survey paper overlooking the. the evidence. uh it's a summary of the evidence we. have for the effectiveness of masks it. seems that. it's difficult to do rigorous scientific. study on masks it is difficult. there's a lot of philosophical and. ethical questions i want to ask you but. within this. it's back to your words and anthony. fauci's words.

when you're dealing with so much. uncertainty. and so much potential uncertainty about. how catastrophic this virus is in the. early days. and. knowing that each word you say may. create panic. how do you communicate science with the. world. it's a philosophical it's an ethical. it's a practical question. there was a discussion about masks a. century ago. and that too led to panic.

so. i mean i'm trying to put myself in the. mind in your mind in the mind of anthony. fauci in those early days knowing that. there's limited supply masks. like what do you say. do you fully convey the uncertainty of. the situation of the. of the challenges of the supply chain. or do you say that masks don't work. that's a complicated calculation. how do you make that calculation.

it is a complicated calculation. as a scientist your. temptation would be. to give a full brain dump of all the. details. of the information about what's known. and what isn't known what experiments. need to be done. most of the time that's not going to. play well in a sound bite on the evening. news so you have to kind of distill it. down to a recommendation that is the. best you can do. at that time with the information you've. got.

so you're a man of god. and we'll return to that to talk about. some. some also unanswerable philosophical. questions but first let's linger on the. vaccine. because in the in the religious in the. christian community there was some. hesitancy with the vaccine. still is still is. there's a lot of data showing high. efficacy and safety of vaccines of covid. vaccines. but still they are far from perfect as.

all vaccines are can you empathize with. people who are hesitant to take the. covet vaccine or to have their children. take the covet vaccine i can totally. empathize. especially when people are barraged by. conflicting information coming at them. from all kinds of directions. i've spent a lot of my time in the last. year trying to figure out how to do a. better job of listening. because i think we have all. got the risk of assuming we know the.

basis for somebody's hesitancy. and that often. doesn't turn out to be what you thought. and the variety of reasons is quite. broad. i think a big concern is just this sense. of uncertainty about whether this was. done too fast and that corners were cut. and. there are good answers to that. along with that a sense that maybe this. vaccine will have long-term effects that. we won't know about for years to come.

and one can say that hasn't been seen. with other vaccines and there's no. particular reason to think this one's. going to be different than the dozens of. others that we have experience with but. you can't absolutely say no there's no. chance of that. so it does. come down to listening and then trying. in a. fashion that doesn't convey a message. that you're smarter than the person. you're talking to because that isn't. going to help.

to really address what the substance is. of the concerns. but my heart goes out to so many people. who are fearful about this because of. all the information that has been dumped. on them. some of it by politicians a lot of it by. the internet. some of it by. parts of the media that seem to. take pleasure in stirring up uh this. kind of fear. for their own reasons. and that is shameful.

i'm really sympathetic. with the people who are confused and. fearful. i am not sympathetic with people who are. distributing information that's. demonstrably false. and continue to do so. they're taking lives. i didn't realize how strong that. sector of disinformation. it would be. and it's been. in many ways more effective uh than the. means of spreading the truth. this is going to take us into another.

place but alex if there's something i'm. really worried about in this country and. it's not just this country but it's the. one i live in. is that we have another epidemic besides. covet 19. and it's an epidemic of the loss. of the anchor of. truth that truth as a means of making. decisions. uh truth is a means of figuring out. how to wrestle with a question like. should i get this vaccine for myself or.

my children. seems to have lost its primacy. and instead it's an opinion of somebody. who. expressed it very strongly. or. some facebook post that i read. two hours. ago and for those to become substitutes. for objective truth. not just. of course for vaccines but for many. other issues like. was the 2020 election actually fair.

this worries me deeply. it's bad enough to have polarization. and divisions. but to have no way of resolving those by. actually saying okay what's true here. makes me very worried about the path. we're on and i'm usually an optimist. well to give you an optimistic angle on. this. i actually think. that. this sense that there's no one place for. truth. it's just a thing that will inspire.

leaders and science communicators to. speak not from a place of authority but. from a place of humility i think it's. just challenging people to communicate. in a new way. to be listeners first. i think the problem isn't that there's a. lot of misinformation. i think that. um. people. the the internet and and the world. are distrustful of people who.

who speak as if they possess the truth. with an authoritarian kind of. tone yeah which was i think defining for. what science was in the 20th century. i just think it has to sound different. in the 21st. with uh it's a in the battle of ideas i. think humility and love wins. and. that's how science wins not through. having quote unquote truth because now. everybody can just say i have the truth.

um i think you have to speak like i said. from humility not authority and so it. just challenges our leaders to uh go. back. and. learn to be part of my french less. and uh. more kind and like you said to listen to. listen to the experiences of people. that are good people not not the ones. who are trying to manipulate the system. and play a game and so on but real you. know real people who are just afraid of. uncertainty of hurting those they loved.

and so on so i think it's just an. opportunity for leaders to go back and. take a class on effective communication. i'm with you on the shifting uh more. from where we are to humility and love. that's got to be the right answer that's. very biblical by the way. we'll get there. i i have to bring up uh joe rogan i. don't know if you know who he is i do. he's a podcaster comedian fighting. commentator and. my now friend and iver mekton uh.

believer too yes that is the question i. have to ask you about. uh he has gotten some flack in the. mainstream media for not getting. vaccinated and when he got coveted. recently taking ivermectin as part of a. cocktail of treatments. the nih actually has a nice page on. ivermectin saying quote there's. insufficient evidence to recommend. either for. or against the use of ivermectin for the. treatment of covin19. results from adequately powered.

well-designed and well-conducted. clinical trials are needed to provide. more specific evidence-based guidance on. the role of ivermecton in the treatment. of covenant 19. so let me ask why do you think there has. been so much attack on joe rogan and. anyone else that's talking about. ivermectin when there's insufficient. evidence for or against. well let's unpack that. first of all i think the concerns about. joe are not limited to his taking.

ivermectin that much more seriously his. being fairly publicly negative about. vaccines. at a time where people are dying. 700 000 people have died from covet 19. estimates. by kaiser or at least a hundred thousand. of those were unnecessary deaths of. unvaccinated people. and for joe to promote that further even. as this uh. pandemic rages through our population. is simply irresponsible.

so yeah the ivermectin is just one other. twist obviously ivermectin has been. controversial for months and months. the reason that it got particular. attention is because of the way in which. it seemed to have captured the. imagination of a lot of people and to. the point where they were taking doses. that were intended for livestock. and some of them got pretty sick as a. result from overdosing on this stuff. that was not good judgment. the drug itself remains uncertain.

uh there's a recent review that looks at. all of the studies of ivormectin and. basically concludes that it probably. doesn't work. we are running a study right now i. looked at that data this morning. in a trial called active six which is. one of the ones that my public-private. partnership. is running we're up to about 400. patients who've been randomized to. ivermectin or placebo. and should know. perhaps as soon as a month from now in a. very carefully controlled trial did it.

help or did it not so there will be an. answer. coming back to joe. again i don't think the fact that he. took divermectin and hoping it might. work. uh is that big a knock against him it's. more the conveying of we don't trust. what science says which is vaccines are. going to save your life we're going to. trust what's on the internet that says. ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine really. do work even though the scientific. community says probably not so let me. push back in that a little bit.

so he doesn't he doesn't say let's not. listen to science. he doesn't say the vaccine don't get. vaccinated. he says it's okay. to ask questions i'm okay with that how. risky is the vaccine for certain. populations. what are the. benefits and risks. there's other friends of joe. and. friends of mine like sam harris who says. if you look at the data. it's obvious that the benefits outweigh.

the risks. and what joe says. is yes but let's. still openly talk about risks and he. often brings up anecdotal evidence of. people who've had. uh highly negative effects from. vaccines. science is not done with anecdotal. evidence. and so you could infer a lot of stuff. from the way he expresses it but he also. communicates a lot of interesting. questions. and that's something maybe you can.

comment on this. you know there's certain groups that are. healthy. they have uh they're younger they have. they exercise a lot they get the all you. know nutrition and all those kinds of. things. he shows. skepticism on whether. it's. so obvious that they should get. vaccinated and the same is. he makes this he kind of presents the. same kind of skepticism for. kids. for young kids so. with.

empathy. and. uh. you know listening my russian ineloquent. description of what joe believes what. what is your kind of response to that. why should. certain categories of healthy and young. people still get vaccinated do you think. well first just to say it's great for. joe to be a skeptic to ask questions we. should all be doing that but then the. next step is to go and see what the data. says and see if they're actually answers. to those questions. so coming to healthy people.

i've done a bunch of podcasts besides. this one. the one i think i remember most. was a podcast with a worldwide wrestling. superstar very nice he's about six foot. six. and just absolutely solid muscle. and he got coveted. and he almost died. and recovering from that he said i've. gotta let my. supporters know because you can imagine. worldwide wrestling fans are probably.

not big. embracers of the need for vaccines. and he want he just turned himself into. a spokesperson for the fact that this. virus doesn't care how healthy you are. how much you exercise what a great. specimen you are it wiped him out. and we see that. you know the average person in the icu. right now with covet 19 is under age 50. i think there's a lot of people still.

thinking oh it's just those old people. in the nursing homes it's not going to. be about me they're wrong. and they're plenty of instances of. people who were totally healthy with no. underlying diseases. taking good care of themselves not obese. exercising who have died from this. disease. 700 children have died from this disease. yes some of them had underlying factors. like obesity but a lot of them did not. so it's fair to say. younger people are less susceptible to.

serious illness kids even less so than. young adults but it ain't zero. and if the vaccine is really safe and. really effective. then you probably want everybody to take. advantage of that even though some are. dropping their risks more than others. everybody's dropping their risks some. are you worried about variants so. looking out into the future are you. what's your vision for.

all the possible trajectories that this. virus takes in human society i'm totally. worried about the variance. delta was. such an impressive arrival on the scene. in all the wrong ways i mean it took. over. the world yeah in the space of just a. couple months because of its extremely. contagious ability viruses would be. beautiful if they weren't terrifying. yeah exactly i mean this whole story of. viral evolution scientifically is just. amazingly elegant anybody who really.

wanted to understand how evolution works. in real time. study sars cov2. because it's not just delta it's alpha. and it's beta and it's gamma and it's. the fact that these sweep through. uh the world's population. by. fairly minor differences in fitness. so the real question many people are. wrestling is is delta it is it is it. such a fit virus that nothing else will. be able to displace it.

i don't know i mean there's now delta. ay4. which is a variant of delta that at. least in the uk. seems to be taking over. the delta population as though it's. maybe even a little more contagious that. might be the first hint that we're. seeing something new here it's not a. completely different virus it's still. delta but it's delta plus. you know the big worry. lex is. what's out there that is so different.

that the vaccine protection doesn't work. and we don't know how different it needs. to be for the vaccine to stop working. that's the that's the terrifying thing. about each of these variants. it's like uh it's always a pleasant. surprise the vaccine seems to have still. have efficacy. and hooray for our immune system may i. say. because the vaccine immunized you. against that original wuhan virus.

now we can see. that especially after two doses and even. more so after a booster your immune. system is so clever that it's also. making a diversity of antibodies to. cover some other things that might. happen to that virus to make it a little. different. and you're still getting really good. coverage. even for beta which was. south africa b1351 which is the most. different. it looks pretty good. but that doesn't mean it will always be.

as good as that if something gets really. far away from the original virus now the. good news is we would know what to do in. that situation the mrna vaccines allow. you. to redesign the vaccine like that. and to quickly get it through a few. thousand participants in a clinical. trial to be sure it's raising antibodies. and then bang you could go. but i don't want to have to do that. there will be people's lives at risk in. the meantime and what's the best way to. keep that from happening well don't.

quite try to cut down the number of. infections. because you don't get variance unless. the virus is replicating in a person so. how do we. uh solve this thing how do we get out of. this pandemic what's like if you had a. like a wand or something or. uh you could really implement policies. what's the full cocktail of solutions. here oh it's a full cocktail it's not. just one thing. in our own country here in the u.s it. would be getting those 64 million. reluctant people to actually go ahead.

and get vaccinated there's 64 million. people who didn't get vaccinated adults. yes not even counting the kids wow 64. million wow and that astounding. get the kids vaccinated hopefully their. parents will see that as a good thing. too. uh get those of us who are due for. boosters boosted because that's going to. reduce our likelihood of having. breakthrough infections and keep. spreading it. uh convince people that until we're. really done with this and we're not now. that social distancing and mask wearing.

indoors are still critical uh to cut. down the number of new infections. but of course that's our country. this is a worldwide pandemic. i worry greatly about the fact that low. and middle income countries have for the. most part not even gotten started with. access to vaccines and we have to figure. out a way to speed that up. because otherwise that's where the next. variant will probably arrive. and who knows how bad it will be and it. will cross the world quickly as we've.

seen happen repeatedly in the last 22. months. i think i'm really surprised annoyed. frustrated. that testing. rapid at home testing from the very. beginning wasn't a big big part of the. solution it seems first of all nobody's. against it that's one huge plus for. testing that it's everybody supports. second of all like that's what america. is good at is like mass manufacturer. stuff like.

like stepping up engineers stepping up. and really deploying it plus without the. collection of data it's giving people. freedom. is giving them information and then. freedom to decide what to do with that. information it's such a powerful. solution i don't understand well now i. think the biden administration is. i think emphasized like the scaling of. testing manufacturers so but i just feel. like it's an obvious solution get a test. that. costs less than a dollar manufacturer. costs less than a dollar to buy. and just everybody gets tested every.

single day. don't share that data with anyone you. just make the decisions and i believe in. the intelligence of people to make the. right decision to stay at home when the. test is positive i am so completely with. you on that and nih has been smack in. the middle of trying to make that dream. come true. we're running a trial right now. in georgia indiana hawaii. uh and where's the other one. oh kentucky. basically blanketing a community with.

free. i'm testing that's beautiful and look to. see what happens as far as stemming the. the spread of the epidemic and measuring. it by waste water because you can really. tell whether you've cut back the amount. of infection in the community. yeah you i'm so with you we got off to. such a bad start with testing. and of course all the testing was being. done for the first several months in big. box laboratories. where you had to send the sample off and. put it through the mail somehow and get. the result back sometimes five days.

later after you've already infected a. dozen people it was just a completely. wrong model but it's what we had and. everybody was like oh we got to stick. with pcr because if you start using. those home tests that are based on. antigens lateral flow. probably there's going to be false. positives and false negatives okay sure. no test is perfect but. having a test that's not acceptable or. accessible is the worst setting so we. nih with some. requests from congress got a billion.

dollars uh to create this program called. rapid acceleration of diagnostics rad x. and we turned into a venture capital. organization and we invited every small. business or academic lab that had a cool. idea about how to do home testing to. bring it forward and we threw them into. what we called our shark tank. of business experts engineers technology. people people understood uh how to deal. with supply chains and manufacturing. and right now today uh there are about. two million tests being done based on.

what came out of that program including. most of the home tests that you can now. buy on the pharmacy shelves we did that. and i wish we had done it faster but it. was an amazingly speedy effort. and you're right companies are really. good once they've gotten fda emergency. use authorization and we helped a lot of. them get that. they can scale up their manufacturing. i think in december we should have about. 410. million tests for that month ready to go.

and if we can get one or two more. platforms. approved and by the way we are now. helping fda by being their validation. lab. if we can get a couple more of these. approved we could be in the half a. billion tests. a month which is really getting where we. need to be wow yeah that's a dream. that's a dream for me it seems like an. obvious solution engineering solution. everybody's behind it it leads to hope. versus division i love it. okay. a happy story a happy story i was.

waiting for one yeah all right well one. last dive into the not happy but you. won't even have to comment on it uh well. comment on the broader philosophical. question so. nih again i said uh joe rogan as the. first one who pointed me to this. nih was recently accused of funding. research of a paper that had images of. sedated puppies with their heads. inserted into small enclosures. containing disease carrying sand flies. so.

i could just say that this this story is. not. true. or at least the. i think it is true that the paper that. showed those images cited. nih is a funding source but that. citation is not correct. yeah. uh but that brings up a. bigger philosophical question what that. it. could have been correct how difficult is. it as a director of nih or just an. ancient organization that's funding so. many.

amazing deep research studies. to ensure the ethical fortitude of those. studies when the ethics of science is. there's such a gray area between what is. and what isn't ethical. well tough issues um certainly animal. research is a tough issue. i was going to bring up it's a good. example of that tough issue is in 2015. you announced that nih would no longer. support any biomedical research involved. involving chimpanzees.

so that's like one example of. looking in the mirror. thinking deeply about what isn't isn't. ethical and there was a conclusion that. biomedical research on. chimps is not ethical. that was the conclusion that was based. on a lot of deep thinking and a lot of. input from. people who have considered this issue. and a panel of the national academy of. sciences that was asked to review. the issue i mean the question. that i wanted them to look at was are we.

actually learning anything that's really. essential from chimpanzee invasive. research at this point. or is it time to say that these closest. relatives of ours. should not be subjected to that any. further and ought to be retired to a. sanctuary. and that was the conclusion that there. was really no. kind of medical experimentation that. needed to be done on chimps in order to. proceed so why are we still doing this. many of these were chimpanzees that were.

purchased because we thought they would. be. good uh. hosts for hiv aids and they sort of. weren't. and they were kept around in these. primate laboratories with people coming. up with other things to do but they. weren't compelling scientifically so i. think that was the right decision i took. a lot of flack from some of the. scientific community said well you're. caving in to the animal rights people. and now that you've said no more. research on chimps what's next.

certainly when it comes to companion. animals. um everybody's heart. starts. to be hurting when you see anything done. that seems harmful to a dog or a cat i. have a cat i don't have a dog and i i. understand that completely that's why we. have these oversight groups that decide. before you do any of that kind of. research is it justified. and what kind of. provision is going to be made to avoid.

pain and suffering. and those are. those have input from the public as well. as the scientific community. is that completely saying that every. step that's happening there is. ethical by some. standard that would be hard for anybody. to agree to no but at least it's a. consensus of what people think is. acceptable. dogs are the only host. for some diseases like leishmaniasis. which was that paper that we were not.

responsible for but i know why they were. doing the experiment or like lymphatic. filariasis. which is an experiment that we are. supporting in georgia. that involves dogs getting infected with. a parasite because that's the only model. we have to know whether a treatment is. going to work or not. so i will defend that. i am not in the place of those who think. all animal research is evil. because i think if there's something. that's going to be done. to save a child from a terrible disease.

or an adult and it involves animal. research that's been carefully reviewed. then i think ethically why it doesn't. make me comfortable it still seems like. it's the right choice. i think to say all animal research. should be taken off the table. is also very unethical because that. means you have basically doomed a lot of. people. for whom that research might have saved. their lives to having no more hope. and uh to me personally there's far. greater concerns ethically in terms of.

uh factory farming for example the. treatment of animals in other contexts. oh there's so much that goes on outside. of medical research that is much more. troubling. that said i think all cats have to go. that's just my off the record opinion. that's why i'm not involved with any. ethical decisions i'm just joking. internet i think i love cats you're a. dog i'm a dog person i'm sorry. have you seen the new yorker cartoon. where there are two dogs in the bar. having a martini. and one is saying they're dressed up in.

their business suits and one says to the. other. you know. it's not enough for the dogs to win the. cats have to lose. ah that's beautiful. uh. so. uh a few weeks ago you've announced that. you're resigning from the nih at the end. of the year. i'm stepping down. i'm still going to be at nih in a. different capacity different capacity. right. and it's over a decade of an incredible. career overseeing the nih as its.

director. what are the things you're most proud of. of the nih in your. time here as this director may be. memorable. moments. ah there's a lot. in 12 years. science has just progressed in amazing. ways over those 12 years. uh think about where we are right now. something like gene editing being able. to make changes. in dna even for therapeutic purposes.

which is now curing sickle cell disease. unthinkable when i became director in. 2009. the ability to study single cells. and ask them what they're doing and get. an answer. single cell biology just has emerged in. this incredibly powerful way. uh having the courage. to be able to say we could actually. understand the human brain. seemed like so far out there and we're. in the process of doing that with the.

brain initiative. taking all that we've learned about the. genome and applying it to cancer. to make individual cancer treatment. really precision. and developing cancer immunotherapy. which seemed like sort of a backwater. into some of the hottest science around. all those things sort of. erupting and much more to come i'm sure. we're on an exponential curve. of medical research advances and that's. glorious to watch.

and of course covet 19 as a beneficiary. of. decades of basic science understanding. what mrna is understanding basics about. coronaviruses and spike proteins and how. to combine structural biology and. immunology and genomics into this. package that allows you to make a. vaccine in 11 months. just i would never have imagined that. possible in 2009 so to have been able to. kind of be the midwife helping all of. those things get birthed. that's been just an amazing 12 years.

and as nih director you have. this convening power. and this ability to look across the. whole landscape of biomedical research. and identify areas that are just like. ready. for something big to happen. but isn't going to happen spontaneously. without some encouragement without. pulling people together from different. disciplines who don't know each other. and maybe don't know how to quite. understand each other's scientific. language and create an environment for. that to happen that has been just.

an amazing experience i mean i mentioned. the brain initiative is one of those. the brain initiative right now i think. there's about 600 investigators working. on this. uh last week the whole issue of nature. magazine was about the output of the. brain initiative basically now giving us. a cell census of what those cells in the. brain are doing which has just never. been imaginable. and interestingly most uh more than half. of the investigators in the brain. initiative are engineers.

they're not biologists in a traditional. sense i love that maybe partly because. my phd is in quantum mechanics so i. think it's really a good idea to bring. disciplines together and see what. happens. that's an exciting thing and i. will not. ever forget having the chance to. announce that program. in the east room of that white house. with president obama who totally got it. and totally loved science and working. with him.

in some of those rare moments of sort of. one-on-one conversation in the oval. office just him and me about science. that's a gift what's it like talking to. uh barack obama about science he seems. to be a sponge. i've heard him i'm an artificial. intelligence person and i've heard him. talk about ai. and it was like it made me think is. somebody like whispering in his ear or. something because he was saying stuff. that totally passed the bs test like he. really understands stuff. he does that means he listened to a.

bunch of experts on ai he was like. explaining the difference between narrow. artificial intelligence and strong ai. like he was he was saying all this both. technical and philosophical stuff and it. just made me i don't know it made me. hopeful about. the depth of understanding that a human. being a political office can attain that. gave me hope as well and having those. experiences. oftentimes in a group i mean another. example was trying to figure out how do. we take what we've learned about the. genome and really apply it at scale.

to figure out how to prevent illness not. just treat it but prevent it. out of which came this program called. all of us this million strong. american cohort of participants who make. their electronic health records and. their genome sequences and everything. else available for researchers to look. at. that came out of a couple of. conversations with obama and others. in his office and. he asked the best questions. that was what struck me so much i mean a.

room full of scientists. and we'd be talking about the possible. approaches and he would come up with. this incredibly insightful penetrating. question not that he knew what the. answer was going to be but he knew what. the right question was i think the core. to that is curiosity yeah it's i don't. think he's even like he's trying to be a. good leader he's legit curious yes. legit. that he almost like a kid in a candy. store gets to talk to the world experts. he got he somehow sneaked into this.

office and gets to get to talk to the. world experts and it's. that that's the kind of energy that uh i. think leads to uh. yeah to beautiful leadership in the. space of science indeed. another thing i've been able to do as. director is to try to break down some of. the boundaries that seem to be. traditional between the public and the. private sectors when it comes to areas. of science that really could and should. be open access anyway why don't we work. together. and that was obvious early on and after. identifying a few possible.

collaborators who were chief scientists. of pharmaceutical companies. it looks like we might be able to do. something in that space out of that was. born something called the accelerating. medicines partnership amp. and it took a couple of years of. convening people who usually didn't talk. to each other and there was a lot of. suspicion academic scientists saying oh. those. scientists and pharma they're not that. smart they're just trying to make money. and the academic scientists getting the.

wrap from the pharmaceutical scientists. all they want to do is publish papers. they don't really care about helping. anybody and we found out both of those. stereotypes were wrong. and over the course of that couple of. years built a momentum behind three. starting projects one on alzheimer's one. on diabetes one on rheumatoid arthritis. and lupus very different each one of. them trying to identify what is an area. that we both really need to see advance. and we could do better together and it's.

going to have to be open access. otherwise nih is not going to play and. guess what industry if you really want. to do this you got to have skin in the. game we'll cover half the cost you got. to cover the other half i love it. enforcing open access so. resulting in open science millions of. dollars gone into this and it has been a. wild success after many people were. skeptical. um a couple years later we had another. project called parkinson's uh more. recently we added one on schizophrenia.

uh just this week we added one on gene. therapy on bespoke gene therapy for. ultra rare diseases which otherwise. aren't going to have enough commercial. appeal but if we did this together. especially with fda at the table and. they have been. we could make something happen turn this. into a sort of standardized approach. where everything didn't have to be a. one-off. i'm really excited about that so what. began as three projects is six and it's. about to be seven next year with a heart. failure project.

and all of us have gotten to know each. other. and if it weren't for that background. when covid came along it would have been. a lot harder. to build the partnership called active. which has been my passion for. the last 20 months accelerating covet 19. therapeutic interventions and vaccines. we just had our leadership team. meeting this morning it was amazing. what's been accomplished that's a. pretty much a hundred people who dropped. everything just to work on this about. half from industry in half from. government and academia.

and that's how we got vaccine master. protocols designed. so we all agreed about what the. endpoints had to be and. you wondered why are there 30 000. participants in each of these trials. that's because of actives. group mapping out what the power needed. to be for this to be convincing. same with therapeutics. we have run at least 20 therapeutic. agents uh through trials that active. supported in record time.

that's how we got monoclonal antibodies. that we know work. um that's been. that would not have been possible if i. didn't already have a sense of how to. work with the private sector that came. out of amp. amp took two years to get started active. took two weeks. we just kept the lawyers 100 people over. yeah kept the lawyers out of the room. and uh. um. now you're gonna get yourself in trouble.

so that i i do hope one day the story of. this incredible vaccine development of. vaccine protocols and trials and all. this kind of details the messy beautiful. details of the science and engineering. and and uh that led to the manufacturing. the deployment and the scientific test. it's such a nice dance between. engineering and the space of. manufacturing the vaccines you know you. start before the studies are complete. you start making the vaccines. just in case the if the studies prove to. be positive then you can start deploying. them just like so many.

uh parties. like you said private and public playing. together that's just a beautiful dance. that uh. is one of the is one of for me the. sources of hope in this very. uh tricky time where there's a lot of. uh. things to be cynical about in terms of. um. the games politicians play and the. hardship experience of the economy and. all those kinds of things but to me this. dance. was of vaccine development was done just.

beautifully and it gives me hope. it does me as well and it was in many. ways the finest hour that science has. had in a long time. being called upon when every day counted. and making sure that time was not wasted. and things were done. rigorously but quickly. so you're incredibly good as the leader. of the nih it seems like you're having a. heck of a lot of fun. why uh why step down from this role.

after so much fun. well no other nih director. has served. more than one uh president after being. appointed by one you're sort of done and. the idea of being carried over. for a second presidency with trump and. now a third one with biden is unheard of. i just think lex that scientific. organizations benefit from new vision. and 12 years is a really long time to. have the same leader. and if i wasn't going to stick it out.

for the entire biden four-year term. it's good not to wait too late during. that. to signal an intent to step down because. the president's got to find the right. person got to nominate them got to get. the senate to confirm them which is a. unpredictable process right now and you. don't want to try to do that in. the second half of somebody's term as. president this has got to happen now so. i kind of decided back at the end of may. that this should be my final year. and i'm okay with that i do have some.

mixed emotions because i love the nih i. love the job. it's exhausting. i'm. traditionally for the last 20 months. anyway working 100 hours a week it's. just that's what it takes to juggle all. of this. and um that keeps me from having a lot. of time for anything else. and i wouldn't mind because i don't. think i'm done yet i wouldn't mind. having some time. to really think about what the next. chapter should be and i have none of.

that time right now. do i have another calling is there. something else i could contribute that's. different than this. i'd like to find that out. i think the right answer is you're just. uh stepping down to focus on your music. career. [Laughter]. but that that might not be a good plan. for anything very sustainable uh but i i. think that is a sign of a great leader. as george washington did stepping down. at the at the right time ted williams.

yes he quit when i think he hit a home. run on his last at-bat and his average. was 400 at the time. no one to walk away i mean it's hard but. it's beautiful to see in a leader. uh you also oversaw the human genome. project you mean you mentioned the brain. initiative which has. you know it's a it's a dream to map. the human brain and there's the dream to. map the the human code which is the. human genome project and you have said.

that it is humbling for me and awe. inspiring to realize that we have caught. the first glimpse of our own instruction. book. previously known only to god. how does that if you can just kind of. wax poetic for a second. how does it make you feel that we were. able to. map this instruction book look into our. own code. and be able to uh reverse engineer it. it's breathtaking.

it's so fundamental. and yet for all of human history we're. ignorant of the details. of what that instruction book looked. like. and then we crossed the bridge. into the territory of the known. and we had that in front of us still. written in the language that we had to. learn how to read and we're in the. process of doing that and will be for. decades to come but we owned it we had. it. and it has such profound consequences.

it's it's both a book about. our history. um it's a book of sort of the parts list. of a human being the genes that are in. there and how they're regulated. and it's also a medical textbook. that can teach us things. that will provide answers to illnesses. we don't understand. and alleviate suffering and premature. death so. it's a pretty amazing thing to. contemplate. and it has utterly transformed the way. we do science and it is in the process.

of transforming. the way we do medicine although much of. that still lies ahead. you know while we were working on the. genome project it was sort of hard. to get this sense of. a wellness because it was just hard work. and you were getting you know another. megabase okay this is good. but when did you actually step back and. say we did it. it's the profoundness of that i mean. there were two points i guess.

one was the announcement on that june 26. 2000 where the whole world heard. well we don't quite have it but we got a. pretty good draft. and suddenly people are like realizing. oh this is this is a big deal. for me it was more when we got the full. analysis of it published it in february. 2001 in that issue of nature. paper that eric lander and bob waterston. and i were the main authors and we. toiled over. and tried to get as much insight as we. could in there about what the meaning of.

all this was. but you also had this sense that we are. such beginning readers here we are still. in kindergarten trying to make sense out. of this three billion letter book. and we're going to be at this for. generations to come. you are a man of faith. christian. and you are a man of science. what is the role of religion. and of science and society and.

in the individual human mind and heart. like yours. well i was not a person of faith when i. was growing up i became a believer in my. 20s. influenced. as a medical student by. a recognition that i hadn't really. thought through the issues. of. what's the meaning of life why are we. all here. what happens when you die. is there a god. science is not so helpful in answering. those questions.

so i had to look around in other places. and ultimately. came to my own conclusion that atheism. which is where i had been. was the least supportable of the choices. because it was the assertion of a. universal negative. which scientists aren't supposed to do. and agnosticism. came as an attractive option but felt a. little bit like a cop-out so i had to. keep going trying to figure out why do. believers actually believe this stuff. and came to realize it was all pretty.

compelling that there's no proof i can't. prove to you or anybody else that god. exists but i can say it's pretty darn. plausible. and ultimately. what kind of god is it uh caused me to. search through various religions and see. well what a what do people think about. that. and to my surprise encountered the. person of jesus christ as unique in. every possible way and. answering a lot of the questions i. couldn't otherwise answer.

and somewhat kicking and screaming. i became a christian. even though at the time. as a. medical student already interested in. genetics people predicted my head would. then explode because these were. incompatible. world views. they really have not been for me. i am so fortunate i think that in a. given day. wrestling with an issue. it can have both the rigorous scientific.

component and it can have the spiritual. component covet 19 is a great example. these vaccines are both an amazing. scientific achievement and an answer to. prayer. when i'm wrestling with vaccine. hesitancy and trying to figure out what. answers to come up with i get so. frustrated sometimes and i'm. comforted. by reassurances that god is aware of. that this is i don't have to do this. alone. so. i know there are people like your friend.

sam harris. who feel differently sam wrote a rather. famous. op-ed in the new york times. when i was nominated as the nih director. saying. this is a terrible mistake. you can't no you can't ham. you can't have somebody who believes in. god running the nih he's just going to. completely ruin the place. well i have. a testimonial christopher hitchens a. devout atheist if i could say so oh yeah.

was a friend of yours and referred to. you as quote one of the greatest living. americans and stated that you were one. of the most devout believers he has ever. met. he further stated that you were. sequencing the genome of the cancer that. would ultimately claim his life and that. your friendship despite their differing. opinions on religion was an example of. the greatest. armed truth in modern times. what did you learn from christopher. hitchens about life or perhaps what is. the fond memory you have of this man.

with whom you've disagreed. but who is also your friend. yeah i loved hitch i'm sorry he's gone. iron sharpens iron. and there's nothing better uh for trying. to figure out where you are with your. own. situation and your own opinions your own. world views than encountering somebody. who's completely in another space. and who's got the gift as hitch did of. challenging everything. and uh doing so over a glass of scotch.

or two or three. uh. yeah we got off to a rough start uh. where in an interaction we had at a. rather uh highbrow dinner. uh he was. really deeply insulting of a question i. was asking. but you know i was like okay. that's fine let's let's figure out how. we could have a more civil conversation. and then i really learned to greatly. admire his intellect and to find the. jousting with him. and it wasn't all about faith although.

it often was. was really. inspiring and innovating energizing. and then when he got cancer i became. sort of his ally trying to help him find. pathways through. the various options and maybe helped him. to stay around on this planet for an. extra six months or so. and i have the warmest feelings of being. in his apartment uh downtown. um. over a glass of wine.

talking about whatever uh sometimes it. was science he was fascinated by science. sometimes it was. thomas jefferson sometimes it was. faith. and i knew it would always be really. interesting. so he's now gone yeah. do you think about your own mortality. are you afraid of death. i'm not afraid i'm not looking forward. to it i don't want to rush it because i. feel like i got some things i can still. do here. but as a person of faith.

i don't think i'm afraid i'm 71. i know. i don't have an infinite amount of time. left. and i want to use the time i've got. in some sort of way that matters. i'm not ready to become a full-time. golfer. [Laughter]. but i don't quite know what that is. i do feel. that i've had a chance to do amazingly. powerful things as far as experiences. and maybe god has something else in mind.

i wrote this book 16 years ago the. language of god. about science and faith trying to. explain how from my perspective these. are compatible these are in harmony. they're complementary if you are careful. about which kind of question you're. asking. and to my surprise a lot of people seem. to be interested in that they were tired. of hearing the extreme voices like. dawkins at one end. and. people like ken ham and answers in.

genesis on the other end saying if you. trust science you're going to hell. and they. thought there must be a way that these. things could get along and that's what i. tried to put forward and then i started. a foundation biologos which then i had. to step away from. to become nih director which has just. flourished maybe because i stepped away. i don't know. but. it now has millions of people who come. to that website and they run amazing. meetings and i think a lot of people. have really come to a sense that this is. okay i can love science and i can love.

god and that's not a bad thing. so maybe there's something more i can do. in that space. maybe that book is ready for a second. edition. i think so. but when you look back. life is finite. what do you hope your legacy is. hmm. i don't know this whole legacy so it's a. little bit hard to. embrace it feels a little self-promoting. doesn't it i sort of feel like in many. ways i went to my own funeral. on october 5th.

when i announced that i was stepping. down and i got the most amazing. responses. from people some of whom i knew really. well some of whom i didn't know at all. who were just telling me stories. about something that i had contributed. to. that made a difference to them and that. was incredibly heartwarming and that's. enough you know. i don't want to build an edifice i don't. have a plan for a monument or a statue. god help us. i do feel like i've been incredibly. fortunate i've had the chance to play a.

role in things that were pretty profound. from the genome project to nih to covet. vaccines. and i had to be plenty satisfied that. i've had enough. experiences here to feel pretty good. about the way in which. my life plan panned out. we did a bunch of difficult questions in. this conversation let me ask the most. difficult one. that perhaps. is the reason you turn to god.

what is the meaning of life. [Laughter]. have you figured it out yet expect me to. put that into three sentences. we only have a couple of minutes at. least hurry up. [Laughter]. well that's not a question i think. science helps me with so you're going to. push me into the face zone which is. where i'd want to go with that. i think welcome what is the meaning why. are we here what are we put here to do. i do believe we're here for just a blink.

of an eye and that our existence somehow. goes on beyond that in a way that i. don't entirely understand despite. efforts to do so. i think we are called upon. in this. blink of an eye to try to make the world. a better place and to try to love people. to try to. do a. better job. of. our more altruistic instincts. and less of our selfish instincts. to try to be.

what god calls us to be. people who are. holy not people who are. driven by. self. indulgence. and sometimes i'm better at that than. others. but i think that. for me as a christian is it pretty clear. i mean it's to live out. the sermon on the mount. once i read that i couldn't unread it. all those beatitudes all the blesseds.

that's what we're supposed to do and the. meaning of life is to strive for that. standard recognizing you're going to. fail. over and over again and that god. forgives you. hopefully to put a little bit of love. out there into the world that's what. it's about. francis um. i'm truly humbled and inspired by. both your brilliance and your humility. and that you would spend your extremely. valuable time with me today it was. really an honor thank you so much for.

talking today i was glad to and you. asked a really good question so your. reputation as the best podcaster has. worn itself out here this afternoon. thank you so much. thanks for listening to this. conversation with francis collins to. support this podcast please check out. our sponsors in the description and now. let me leave you with some words from. isaac newton reflecting on his life and. work. i seem to have been only like a boy. playing on the seashore and diverting.

myself and now and then finding a. smoother pebble or a prettier shell than. ordinary whilst the great ocean of truth. lay all undiscovered before me. thank you for listening and hope to see. you next time. you.