Ed Calderon: Mexican Drug Cartels | Lex Fridman Podcast #346

- When it's quiet, that's when it hits you. I think that's what a lot of people experience. when they come back from a conflict zone. You know... Everything that was life and death, everything that mattered, all the noise, all the chaos, all the people that are around you that would die for you, kill for you, you would kill for them. All these millions of dollars worth of equipment. and stuff like that you were responsible for, now are all gone and it's just you. - The following is a conversation with Ed Calderon,

a security specialist who has worked for many years. on counter-narcotics and organized crime investigation. in the northern border region of Mexico. I highly recommend you follow the writing and courses. on his Patreon and website, edsmanifesto.com. This is the Lex Frieman podcast, support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Ed Calderon. What does your experience in counter-narcotics.

investigating the Mexican drug cartel. teach you about human nature? - Wow. I mean, first off, anybody can be got, anybody can be corrupted. You know, you work in that field and you... Realistically, the training we got. and profiling and investigation and stuff like that. was basically you learn from the older guys there. And some of those guys were already corrupted. from the start, so trust no one.

I remember seeing that X-Files episode. where that was stated. You quickly learn that even if you are somebody. that to your own mind appears incorruptible, you know, small changes happen around you, wheels get greased, money gets put in front of you, and/or things get threatened, like your life. And sometimes a payment for some of this corruption. is just to continue on living. You encounter people that seem incorruptible, that go through FBI background checks, that go through all of the security measures.

that all of us were put through, you know, polygraph test, and then later on, you know, it turns out they were on the take, or they became somebody that was corrupted. I think what I found out is that anybody at any level, they could be a very strong, hard to get person right now, but people get corrupted through their families, through need. Mexico is a place where a lot of instability occurs.

So financial needs, health. - So a crack could form through the wall of integrity. and then over time, it seeps in somehow. - Mexico has a culture of corruption. Like, you know, you have your kid. that goes to school at public school. and you want him to be in the morning, not in the afternoon school time period. So you go off and grease the wheels. with the director of the school. People hearing this in Mexico will nod their heads. because this is something that happens from early on.

So there's a systemic and cultural thing to it, you know, as far as getting around rules. And this happens because, you know, the people that are in charge in Mexico, the government is, you know, their tandem amount. is trust between criminals and the cartels down there. for a lot of the culture. So people don't trust the government. and much less criminality, so. - When you meet a person, sticking on human nature, do you think it's possible to figure out. if they can be trusted? So you said anyone could be corrupted.

You know, how long would you need to talk to a person, even in your own personal private life, just a friend? Or is trust a thing that's never really guaranteed? - I think trust is never really guaranteed. I know a lot of people are gonna say that's a sad way. and hard way of living your life, but you know, life experience at my end, you know, people change, you know, the dynamics of a relationship might change. I look at people's character, specifically their past. and past experiences, if I can. Somebody that presents himself in front of you.

as somebody, but you quickly learn that. that somebody is just a mask or a persona. that they kind of created for themselves. - And they might not even be aware of the persona? Like, is there some deep psychological stuff? - Sometimes. I've experienced a lot of failure in my life. You can see it in my nose, you know, you can see it in. my lack of a digit, you know. The amount of failures you can see in somebody. and how they wear them sometimes is a pretty telling thing. as far as them being able to be trusted.

or that you can trust their story or their experience. And when I say experience, I mean I've met some criminals, like former criminals or you know, some people of that background that I trust with my life, because they're, not reformed, but they figured out that that's not a life. they could live long enough to kind of continue on, and I've also met people that are in law enforcement. that I wouldn't trust with my car keys, you know, because whatever persona they adopted over the years.

is a pretty good one, pretty good mask. Sometimes such a good mask they don't even know. they're wearing it. - And on top of that, it's not just the psychology, there's also a neurobiology to it. I've been very fortunate and deliberate. to surround myself with good people throughout my life. But I've recently gotten to sort of observe, not close to me, but nearby, somebody that could be. classified as a sociopath. - [Ed] Yeah.

- And a narcissist. - Yeah. - Like, I don't wanna use those psychological terms, but just, it's like, oh, people, you know, come with different biology too. So it's not just like the trauma you might experience. in your early life and all the deep complexity. that leads to the psychology that you have as an adult, but it's also the biology you come with, the nature that you might not just have. the machine that can empathize deeply.

with the experience of others, or maybe a machine that gets off, gets a dopamine rush from the manipulation of other humans. - [Ed] Yeah. - Or the control of other humans. - Yeah, I mean, put an example of my own background. My mom didn't have a father, you know. He left really early on in their childhood. You know, my mom raised her two sisters. and basically kept a household. She was a great mom, she was a badass, you know,

she was very independent. She showed me how to be independent. She showed me how to kind of watch out for others. and kind of build me up in that way. And I had a great childhood as far as, you know, as far as her, and kind of like how she molded me. Later on I figured out that when I had my own kid, you know, I figured out that she was basically. trying to make me into what she didn't have, in a way. And if I can get to see somebody's parents, you know,

that's usually a sign of something, at least for me, as far as figuring out where people are. I think there's something to be said. about nature and nurture, and how some people come up. Some people are just born with that predatory instinct, you know, and you'll never know. I mean, they spend their whole life practicing. how to hide it. But if you can figure out somebody's, you know, background, childhood, where they're from, you can kind of tell something about them. I'm from Tijuana, you know, I'm a survivor. That's my background as far as where I'm from.

- Culturally, genetically, psychologically, the full shebang. - Yeah. I guess some people are born with certain predispositions. and if they're in the right environment, some of the negative aspects might flourish. more than others. For me, I mean, I grew up skateboarding. in Tijuana, and I remember breaking into. my first backyard pool. It was a house that a cartel guy owned, and we used to skate the pool in the back of it. So I learned how to pop open padlocks.

with a small vehicle hydraulic lift. And I remember doing that, and later on in life. I got to train with people from other parts of Mexico. and work with them. And I remember pulling that trick off, and they were looking at me like, where'd you learn that? I was like, some burglars in Tijuana, you know? And they're like, wow, that's interesting. Like are all people from Tijuana like that? And I said, "no, we're not all like that.". But I guess in some way we are, because, you know,

Tijuana produces kids like that, you know, she produces, like the environment itself produces. a pretty specific person, I guess. You know, where our normal or our baseline normal. is way different than most. - The trajectories that you can take in life. are defined in a way that aren't available. elsewhere in the world. - Yeah. - And so you develop, I mean, part of that. is psychological, part of that is cultural and so on. Part of that is the cultural trauma, but then also the ethical lines based on the corruption.

'Cause I grew up in the Soviet Union, and there's the same kind of understanding, that there's some gray area of corruption. - Yeah. It's always there, like on the outskirts. or even at the center, how you can grease things. to make things easier, and how it's like a personal thing. I'll just, you know, pay off the, in Tijuana. we have a (indistinct) is what we call it, you know, when you pay a cop off. (indistinct), means a bite. So.

- But what's the bite aspect? - So you get stopped for a traffic violation of some sort. and the cop walks up to you. Obviously you don't say the word bite, but it's like a slang term for it. And he asks for your paperwork and you know, and if you get fined or get a ticket, you say, "can I pay the ticket here?". Is what they say. And, you know, put their money inside the paperwork. and hand over to the cop, (indistinct). You think it's, you know, I'm just gonna do it. and nobody knows, you know, but it's a systemic thing.

Everybody, like a lot of people do it, and then they don't trust the police. because they are fed with this. - Yeah. I mean, same thing was in the Soviet Union, it's funny. But then, there's something inside you. where that kind of... Those opportunities come, like with a police officer, where you realize you could just pay a little bit of money. and get out of a thing, and then you realize. you can pay a little bit of money or do a favor. and get your kids in a better school. or something like that. - Yeah. - But there comes opportunities where, all right,

if I do this little thing, I can get a huge promotion, or I can get a huge increase in my power, or I can get a lot of money. And something inside you says no. - Yeah. - It's not right. - [Ed] Yeah. - And I wonder what that is, 'cause like... 'Cause it feels different than the legal systems. within which operate, there's some kind of. basic human integrity, human decency. I wonder if that's like constructed. or it's always there, if it's like,

again, nature versus nurture. - I think, you know, for me, it was seeing that. in somebody else that I kind of learned about it. There's a man that I consider a mentor figure. His name's Lieutenant Colonel Luis Alda. He was a lieutenant colonel from the Army. that basically came over and took over the group. that I used to work with. He was, you know, incorruptible, you know, that was the essence or the aura that he projected.

The first time he went off on patrol. when he was placed in charge of us, I actually, you know, drove him around Tijuana. He was one of those lead from the front type of people. The amount of assassination attempts he got. was basically a proof of how uncorruptible. he was because they kept trying to pay him off, and when that didn't work, they tried. to kill him several times. I think the last assassination attempt. took the use of his legs. And that man is still a dangerous person in my mind. But for me, and you know, people can gather.

a little bit about my background and where I'm from. and some of the access I currently have. to train the federal institutions here in the US. as far as my background and if I was corrupted or not, because there's a lot of that out there. The Catholic guilt that's kind of built into some of us. is always kind of there, you know. (speaking foreign language). The devil was under the bed, you know. So I don't consider myself Catholic,

consider myself culturally Catholic, I think, is what I kind of say with that. I had a pretty good structure with my dad and my mom. at the house, and you know, they never let me. get away with things. And I think my mom was a pretty big moral compass for me. But the lieutenant Colonel kind of leading from example. and seeing his work and how much profound change he caused. in the people that worked with him as far as, you know, we felt supported and we felt like we had. a guiding figure during this.

Tijuana was the most dangerous city on the planet. when I was working there, and he took charge. - What does it take to be a man, the lieutenant colonel, who maintains integrity after assassination attempts? Is it possible for a normal human to do that? Or again, is it genetic? - That's an interesting question. I'll say this. Seeing him, I mean, last assassination attempt he had, that took the use of his legs, he was with his kid. There was a recklessness to it, you know.

I can see that now, like now that I have. enough distance from it, I could see that there's a recklessness to being that way. And also you put in jeopardy people around you. if you take that route. So I think there's a sacrifice to it, a very powerful and hard one to make for a lot of people. For me it was, I wouldn't get picked. to get on board with some of the operations group. that I wanted to work with because I was known. for not, you know, taking money or not being trusted.

by certain older segments of the organization. that I was with, with stuff because they knew. that I wouldn't, you know, I wasn't on the... I wouldn't get money. So there's always a weird sacrifice to it, you know, almost kind of like masochistic in that way. when you get approached with it, they're like, why are you being an idiot, you know? Why are you driving around that beat up car? Look at the Hummer H2 that just drove in. with the other guy that is doing exactly your same job.

Society as a whole down there doesn't reward it, or at least doesn't see it in the people. that don't take that route in Mexico, you know, for them, all cops are corrupt, you know, all of 'em. And, you know, seeing it, again, from the outside, I'm not there anymore. There's almost almost like a, why didn't you, Rd? It could have been easier maybe, or you could have been. dead long ago, you know, because people. that are on the take down there.

are usually owned by one side or the other, and when that gets found out, you know, if you have somebody that you're paying off. that hints you off of drug operations in the area, your rivals are pretty keen on killing you. - Money aside, so like a Hummer aside, how much of a motivator is fear? - It's a big one, you know. I'll say, you know, for me, I didn't think. I was gonna live to see 30, you know, I was sure of it. - Did that concept scare you, or was that just.

a principle of life that you operated under? - I lost my brother when I was 13 on it too. Like, you know, he was 19. He was like the VIP of the family, you know? - You miss him? - Oh, every day. He was a, you know, skateboarded, BMX, motorcycle, hunter, one of the best marksmen that I've ever seen shoot.

- So better than you at everything. - Yeah, he was the best of us, is what we would say. And when he died, it's almost like a concert at his funeral, you know, I met three of his girlfriends. that all introduced themselves, like the one, you know. - [Lex] Yeah. - To this day, every now and then. I get pulled aside down when I go back home. and they, "hey, you're Eric's brother," you know? Despite all the stuff that I've done, I'm still, you know, every now and then I get recognized.

That made my mom and my dad go into a horrible depression. and basically, you know, left me to my devices. when I was a kid, from 13 onwards. I had this self-destructive, you know, aspect to me after that, I think, you know, so again, something that's come up in therapy, you know, after I've been gone through all that, and had this notion that if I can only die good. in some way, shape, or form, or for something, that it would matter, and they would kind of, you know,

look at me with the same reverence they did with my brother. - So dying isn't the problem. The goal of life is to die for something good. - Yeah. At least, that was my mindset going through that job. I remember I was in medical school before that, you know, second year of medical school, I was doing pretty good, and then 911 happened and, you know, that wasn't an option anymore for me. The economy was horrible, couldn't afford to stay there.

So I saw this ad in the newspaper and my big brother, who's still alive, he's like, (speaking foreign language). you know, you're not gonna do that shit. You wouldn't dare. And all of a sudden I was in a field. having my hair shaved off and a bunch of the gaffes, the guys that later turned into the Zeta cartel, military men, were in charge of our training, you know? And I went through that process.

- And what field were you and why is your head being shaved? And what the hell was going through your mind? What was the leap that you took? - I was sold the idea of this being a new. Americanized police force that they were constructing. - In Mexico? - In Mexico. - So elite. - Yeah. - Special force, kinda. - Prestigious, elite. The people in charge of our training. were a lot basically ex-Mexican goffe people. Goffes are what the special forces kind of originated. A lot of their members turned into the Zeta cartel.

So they were brutal in their training. We were sold this idea of it being, you know, scientific, educated based and like a career path. And all of a sudden we're in this refurbished prison. that wasn't good enough to be a prison, and they turned it into a training ground. And I quickly kind of realized that they were training us. to be a paramilitary group, not a community. policing organization, which in my mind.

I thought that's what we're gonna be doing. - What was the hardest process of that training for you? Was this like a fragile innocent boy. becomes a man kind of process? - They're turning us into something that they could use. So it's a breaking down. They break down the individual, you know, it's-. - [Lex] Physically, mentally? - Yeah, I think it's a half done initiation process,

I think, in a way, you know, looking at it from now. to the past, the shaving of the hair, the stripping off your identity, you know, everybody gets. a number, the uniforms, the running around, and you know, being treated like human garbage. The first thing they said to us when we were. lined up in that field was, (speaking foreign language).

Which means there's bread and dick to eat here, and the bread ran out a week ago, right? So it was, I mean, I can't equate it. to anything in the military here in the United States, because people down there could actually. get physical with us. I mean, they could actually hit us and punch us. and shit like that, which is not allowed here anymore, at least in most of the military as horrible as down there. AK-47s being shot around us to simulate reality,

basically causing hearing loss, that type of stuff. - So chaos, abuse, really challenging you. - [Ed] Yeah. - Again, physically and mentally. - And an open door there always. So if you don't want to be here, you can just walk out, and the more you go into it time-wise, more invested you are, so, in a way, you're kind of. building your own chains while you're. going through that process. - [Lex] Well, you attempted to walk out? - Yeah, several times. Several times. Specifically seeing some of the ways that.

people that I thought were better or stronger than me. were walking out or quitting because of. something that happened in there. There was some sexual assault stuff. happening in there as well. - Are you afraid of that? - Always, you know. You're in a place like that and there's females. in the environment and some of the instructors. are doing what they do. So that was like a cause for alarm. I mean, these people are in charge of our safety. and education and look at what's happening here.

So you could see some of the smarter ones leaving, you know, not looking at this as a viable choice for life. - How did that change you, those few months? - I had this motivation, this idealistic motivation. in my head, you know, of making a difference, and they drill a lot of... Nationalistic kind of, you know, the flag marching, you being part of a group. and the group being, you know, behind you in all of this.

- What was the nationalistic pride? Was it in the nation of Mexico? - [Ed] Yeah, yeah. - What's the vision of this great nation of Mexico. that you were, did you believe, did it get into your blood? - Yeah. It got into my, I mean, it's an indoctrination, you know, it's a paramilitary group, so everything there is basically modeled after the military. So that's what they were trying to kind of instill in us. I was a team leader in there. After three months, basically I was...

We went through a bunch of trials, physical trials, mental trials and stuff like that, and some of us were named team leaders. And I, you know, bought into it. You know, I'm supposed to be here, look at me, I'm making headways. I'm sticking out a bit, you know, and I was pretty proud of. what I was going through there, six months. Then you get the reality check when you sign the dotted line.

and how none of it really meant anything. as far as what we were about to go out and do, you know. An example of this, we were trained with a 92FS Beretta, which is a nine millimeter pistol, Italian made. We got to shoot 20 rounds out of that gun. And then when we got out, we were handed a Glock 17, which I've never seen one in my life.

I was trying to figure out where the safety was, and a few other people there were handling those guns. in a horrible manner. So we were very under-trained under-equipped, and there was a lot of assumptions about what we knew, and all of a sudden we were being cast into. the start of one of the, you know, bloodiest and longest-lived modern conflicts in our history. That doesn't get called that, but it's basically been.

an ongoing war in Mexico that is still to this day, you know, amassing bodies. - So the Mexican drug war. - The Mexican drug war, which is, you know, it's hard to pinpoint exactly when it started, because when I was going through training, there was already stuff going on. I went into training at 2004, and there were already, you know, major cartel-related events. all over Mexico by then, but not at the size or scope.

as I was about to go into, you know, when President Felipe Calderon. kind of took office down there. and actually officially kind of kicked it off. by putting the military in play as part of. basically militarized the drug war, you know, including us. - Who are the major players in this drug war? So the politicians, the military, the police force, the cartels, all Mexican, and the United States,

China, just to lay out all the pieces on the board. - First off, there are giant local drug markets. in Mexico that are fought over, you know, just local drug markets that are huge in scope. - So no exporting to other locations. - Just to start, yeah. - Yeah. - So a big problem in Mexico is basically. those local drug markets, and an example of that, and one I have a lot of experience with, is the one in Tijuana, which not only. feeds the local populace, but also feeds.

the populace from San Diego that crosses down. into Tijuana and buys their product there. And now, you know, phenomenon that's are occurring now. is marijuana trafficking is going from California. down into Mexico because they produce better weed, you know, which is fascinating to see now. - So there's already a channel, you're kind of like reusing that channel. - Yeah. There's not a lot of people and vehicles. getting checked when they drive down. Tijuana is being called San Diego South now, because you know, all the economic migrants, you know,

living down there, 90% of all houses in Tijuana, new houses, are being bought up by Americans, so that'll tell you something about the impact. and change that's going on down there. So you have these local drug markets. that are being fought over. You also have these drug routes that go through Mexico, up into Mexico, around Mexico, through the ocean, under the wall, you know, drug tunnels, over the wall, and on backpacks, on migrants that go up into the United States.

Not only do the cartels make money off drug trafficking, but also extortion, money laundering, paid protection schemes, you know, any mining operation in Mexico will have to pay protection, you know, or else they'll get hit. A lot of times the largest money makers. for some of these criminal groups are, you know, protecting and taxing anybody that goes across the border. So that's also a big issue. And it's not just, again, some Americans.

think it's like the cartels, you know, and they imagine this single or maybe two or three groups. There's several out there. I don't have a current estimate, but last time I checked it was somewhere. in the vicinity of 50, 70 different groups, some small that just dedicate themselves. to a single little town somewhere. There are armed groups that are basically. in control of that area, to some bigger federations, like the Sinaloa cartel, which is probably currently. the largest and most powerful one in Mexico,

and the New Generation cartel, which is growing exponentially right now. So these criminal groups are players in that conflict. Then another player that doesn't get talked about. is politics, politicians. There's an ongoing discussion that has been going on. I think since Trump was elected. about cartels being terrorist organizations or not, or if they fit that description.

Well, you know, we are living through. multiple assassinations on political candidates. out New Mexico right now, and most of those assassinations. are motivated by one side sponsoring one candidate. and the other side sponsoring the other. What I mean by sides, I mean cartel groups. So they have elected officials that are on the take. And this is, we have, you know, many governors who are under investigation on the run. or in prison right now, state governors.

So politics is involved in it. That's a big player as well. That doesn't, you know, when you think about. the cartel problems, you don't think, well, at least most people don't think about. that aspect of it. - So to have integrity as a politician in Mexico. means you have no protection and under. constant threat of assassination. - We've just seen the arrest and prosecution. of the head of all current cartel operations. when I was active in the form of (indistinct). who was, he was the guy. Felipe Calderon, who kicked off the drug war,

that was his guy. Turns out he was on the take at a level. - Is there like a spectrum of how on the take you can be? Are there ethical lines that you can cross? Some of it is money, and then, is it possible. to operate in a gray area that does not. result in destructive ethical violations? Deep ethical violations. - I have no idea. I don't think there is, realistically.

I mean, anything that kind of supports some of these groups, you know, you're supporting things of a horrible nature. I just posted recently on my Instagram account. of a lady that was in Guanajuato. She's one of seven recently assassinated women. that are looking for their kids, basically. There's a bunch of groups and organizations. out there in Mexico, and some in Tijuana, that I've actually walked with, who are.

taking control of trying to find the bodies of their kids. That's her up there. - Maria Carmela Vazquez, a mother who searched. for her missing son was shot to death. outside her home on Sunday. Her son, Osmar Vazquez, disappeared on June 14th. The 46-year-old woman is the fifth mother. to be killed this year while searching. for their missing loved ones. She was a member of the Penjamo Missing Person collective.

- There's many groups out in Mexico. who basically have given up on trusting the government. to find their kids. The number of missing in Mexico is debated topic. because, you know, the government itself. doesn't release those numbers, or at least hasn't done a good job. about keeping them and/or releasing them. Mexico is a country that has industrialized body disposal, you know, and Tijuana, we had the stewmaker, the legendary stewmaker, which is a guy.

that basically used caustic acid. to get rid of bodies at a massive level. - So there's a separate operation. for getting rid of bodies and murdering the people. - At least in Tijuana, we saw that phenomenon, and it's obvious that it's going on all over Mexico. - Who's having those discussions about mass murder. and getting rid of people? I've been reading a lot about World War II recently, and there was aggressive innovation on the Nazi side. of how to get rid of a large number of people.

'Cause for the longest time, both the Soviets and their, the Soviets were more brutal with this. This literally, it's an engineering problem. of how you kill a large number of people. and get rid of their bodies. So the Soviets were more into just. laying people down into the grave, face down, then shooting them in the back of the head, and then doing that at mass scale. So you just like pile people on. And then there was obviously innovation with the Holocaust. in terms of gassing people and all that kind of stuff.

- I'm not sure exactly where these trade craft skills. are coming from specifically. You hear discussions of Israelis. training some of the cartel groups. back in the late nineties, specifically. the (indistinct) cartel. There's a lot of stories about that. A security specialist coming down. and showing them things like how to make caustic soda, how to put rocks inside of bodies. and then chicken wire them around. and throw them into the ocean or river. so the bodies don't float.

And when you kind of-. - Put rocks inside a body to make sure. the body doesn't float? - So you open up the intestinal tract, put rocks inside, you cut where tattoos are, you take off hands and faces and throw them somewhere else, and you wrap 'em in chicken wire. - [Lex] So make it not identifiable? - Yeah, and throw 'em into a body of water. And this is a horrible thing, but it's-. - [Lex] Actually a craft, it's a trade craft. - It's trade craft and there's a link to the US.

as far as that trade craft. You have to remember that the United States. had a thing called School of the Americas, and the CIA, and they showed things, and a lot of that stuff is out there. in the hands of people that are of that generation. - There's a manual. - [Ed] There's a manual somewhere. - And like with chapters and it's like. how to get rid of the body. - [Ed] There's manuals out there. - Under time constraints, or how identifiable. can the body be afterwards, what are.

geographical constraints, all that kind of stuff. - I think that was common back in the early 2000s. and maybe the late nineties when some of these things. were going on, but they've lost even that. as far as respect for the government or bodies being found. Right now, what you usually see is just bodies being. burnt to a crisp and buried in a field somewhere. That's usually what you'll see. Some of the groups like this woman belonged to. basically taken upon themselves to go out.

to find clandestine graves in the outskirts. of the towns that they live in, probing the ground with these metal probes. and seeing if whatever they encounter. in the bottom of these clandestine graves stinks or not. If they find IDs or clothing, they kind of gather that. and they basically present it to. the investigative authorities in the towns or the states. they live in, which basically they're doing their jobs.

You know, over 90% of all murders in Mexico. are never solved. I mean, so they've even stopped trying. to get rid of bodies in that way, you know? - How does a cartel take power? How does it gain control of this local area. that you mentioned and then grow? Take control of a region, and how does it do so. in this dynamic relationship between.

politicians and the military and the police force? - It's a thing that happens over time. There has always been a big effort, even when I was in, to buy or own certain members of the police force, even when they're going through training, some people get pulled out during training. because they were found out to have some sort of. parent or sibling that was a cartel member. or their FBI background check came back negative, you know, even when they were already in the training program.

So, I think part of it is, first off, they take advantage of the fact that Mexico. is a young country, it's a country of young people. We have a big group of young people. that have little to no opportunities to come up. When I was in, when I went to take that career path, a lot of my friends took the other option, you know. They went to work for some of these criminal groups. So they have this going for them.

They basically have a lot of bodies to hire cheaply. - And leverage in terms of forcing those bodies. to do whatever is needed, because the alternative. for those people is nothing. - There's no options, yeah. So you have a kid somewhere who is working on a field, you know, or you have a kid like me. that was out of the job, out of school, and the only options for me was this ad in the newspaper, which seemed like a long shot, or going with. some of my friends that had cars now.

and were hanging out all night at these bars. and some of them had, you know, Draco AK-47 pistols in their cars. and it would look cool, you know? - So there is a trajectory, there's many trajectories. possible in your life where you could have been. still operating in a criminal organization in Mexico. - Yeah, I mean, there's not a lot of options, you know? - Do you think you'd be good at it? - I don't know. I mean, I'm pretty good at what I do now, which is teaching people how to detect it.

and kind of fight against it, you know? So I think... - I have a sense that the skills transfer pretty well. That's also the dark side of this whole thing. - A lot of the people that I used to work with, you know, I know things, and I have some training, and I had some specialized training, and I currently do, I've done, you know, presentations for the Secret Service. and the FBI and you name it, I've gone there. and shown them what I do. A lot of the people that I used to work with. who are out of the job are in the wind, you know? And some of these people are way more trained than I am.

It's interesting, the reason why I get looked for. and they ask me questions is because. I actually have the experience. My university was the most dangerous city on the planet. And when people ask me about some of that stuff, I could speak from experience as far as. encountering some of that directly. Some of the people that I used to work with. who were way better at it than I am are in the wind. Interesting thing in Mexico, if you are. of a police organization and you get fired or you quit,

you are ineligible to join another police organization, that discounts you. So for somebody like me who was a professional. operations group member or police officer. in Mexico of that region, there's no options. for me outside of that. So they themselves basically have created. this inescapable box for some of these people. that go into that line of work. And where do they go after? I've heard offers of $12,000 to join.

some of the organizations out there. Plus, you know, they get benefits, not like the government, you know, I'm still waiting for my liquidation check. This has been out of service for like six, seven years, I'm still waiting for my check. So some of these people, it's obvious. that the opportunities that are presented to them. out there stronger, you know, and again, the youth is what gets eaten by this war. And that's one of the main things that they start with,

just the youth. We had a phenomenon in Tijuana, late nineties, early 2000s, called the narco juniors. Narco juniors are basically bored middle class. or upper class families had kids that were bored. and they just joined some of these cartel groups. These cartel groups saw in them. opportunities to get into regular industry, to go through the family businesses. to kind of establish themselves, use some of those businesses for storage.

or figure out how to use some of their. transportation businesses for drug muling. So this is how they start in getting into different areas, you know, that they regularly couldn't. And you know, that's how it starts, you know. You owe somebody, they get into. paid protection type schemes, which are also common. all over Mexico, and sooner or later, they start owning businesses and they regulate.

some of their income, so they become. part of the local economy in a big way. I had this experience in (indistinct). where we were driving down this shitty street, and all of a sudden it became a cool, nice, you know, little curvy highway type thing. And I looked around there, it was like, this is a nice road. And the guy who was with me, he said, "yeah, the cartels built it.". You go to some of these towns and the cartels. are the government there. They built the hospitals, they built the churches, they built the schools.

COVID happens, they're enforcing the mask mandates, you know, they're out enforcing the mask mandates, the stay-at-home policies. They're the ones delivering supplies. to the townspeople in bags, you know, courtesy of so-and-so cartel, you know, so they become. the Robin Hood characters of their environments. If they're smart, you know, these groups basically turn into. that, you know, Robin Hood, you know, stealing from the rich and giving to the poor, or at least that's the projection that they give.

- What's the role of violence in this operation? - Extreme. You know, it used to be that there were rules, as you say, like, you know, don't go after kids, don't go after women. But all those things are gone now. They had been gone for decades, I think. The escalation of violence, you know, you kill one of mine, I'll kill four of yours, you kill four of mine, I'll go after your family. because you were in hiding. There's stories of high level cartel people getting their,

you know, sons and daughters, you know, murdered, mutilated, in revenge killings. So I think it's at a point where it's spiraled out of. semblance of a rule set as far as. who can get exposed to some of this violence. Those highly produced ISIS videos. where they show torture and executions, according to some of the sources that I've talked to. here in the United States that were. looking at that phenomenon, they said that.

it seems to be that that was influenced. by some of the narco blog videos that were. coming out of Mexico early in the early 2000s, basically that some of these groups. were the first ones that got wind of the fact. that you can export terror or the horror. that an execution has through social media. Way back when Facebook was a bit more of a wildland area, you could see these in news feeds, videos of executions,

tortures, and stuff like that, coming outta Mexico. - [Lex] On Facebook? - Way back when. - Wow. - This was a different time. - For people who criticize social media and the moderation, it's a tough job, because it's a brutal world out there. - I mean, I remember seeing some of these ISIS videos. on Facebook way back when, and you know, they cracked down on all that. But one that's kind of clear, and I'm not gonna. say where to find it, but people out there.

might have seen it, because some of these videos. get shared through WhatsApp groups. and chat groups out there. One of the ones that caught my attention way back when. two guys getting executed by chainsaw. And you know, people can kind of. imagine what that would be like, but-. - This is produced on purpose? - Yes. - Like it's videotaped on purpose. - It's a cartel group caught two rival cartel members, and a way to send a message to those of their rival cartel.

is to basically execute these people in front of a camera. I mean, you can't get to your rivals, but you can. make them see what they're doing, or at least. make their people look at what happens. if you, you know, invade their territory. - Just an escalation of brutality in the violence as well. And at least a terror and then sort of. mass communication of terror. - Yeah, I mean, you have videos of some of these people. engaging in can cannibalism in front of a video.

to see how brutal they are. Or people taking out somebody's heart while they're alive, you know, and filming it. And you know, you used to be social media as a whole, you would see some of these videos, they would get put down in a few days. But now there's telegram groups, there's, you know, live leaks, there's a bunch of other sites out there. that kind of disperse some of these videos. And it's basically a bulletin board for them. as far as, you know, hey, you got into my territory,

well, this is what's gonna happen to you. Right. - Is there a game theoretic way to. remove this kind of brutality, to deescalate the brutality? Because it seems like if a cartel takes power. that exceeds the power of politicians in a locality, there's a strong incentive to reduce the brutality, to crack down on this kind of chainsaw executions. - You know, there was a recent leak of government files,

call 'em the Wakamaya Leaks. It's our version of WikiLeaks, I guess. And it was mostly documents coming out of. the Mexican military. I haven't seen it talked about a lot here in stateside, but it's a pretty big thing down in Mexico. And in some of those documents, it reveals. how powerless the government is, I mean, as far as the military goes. So, that's another player in Mexico, the military. The military has been out in force in the streets.

basically doing a policing role since Felipe Calderon. was the administration. He basically militarized the drug war. Felipe Calderone was to the right of the political spectrum, and his main rival, who was way to the left, is now in power, and one of the campaign promises he had. was to de militarize the drug war, to send the military back to its barracks and all that.

And he's basically continuing on, they just passed. some legislation that basically keeps the military. on the streets for a few more years, you know. And I think some of these documents that were leaked. are very telling as far as why that is. The military now has a vast amount of power. when it comes to security, industry, I mean, they're in charge of building airports. and train lines in Mexico now. Their documents themselves show how certain regions.

in Mexico who have a specific military presence. work for one side or favor one side of the cartel over here. - So they're corrupted too. So there's these military forces that are in part corrupted. - [Ed] Yes. - And the cartel, who operates with violence, somehow finding a balance between each other, and no... It just feels like throughout human history. there's dictators or leaders that come.

into situations like this and really. crack down on the violence. - [Ed] Yeah. - It seems like that's not happening. It seems like there's a kind of market of violence. happening here. - There's a systemic amnesia that happens. every presidency in Mexico. So president comes in, he has five to six years. to do whatever he needs to do, and he does everything, and as soon as he's gone, everything he did, even what was working, gets chopped off.

Police organizations get defunct or the names get changed, uniforms change. - So there's a lot of turnover everywhere? - Every five years federally there's a turnover. and things change. - What about the cartels, do they persist? - Yeah. - The leadership persist? - I mean, the Sinaloa cartel has had. a figurehead behind it since the eighties. The same one, you know. I mean, it's a federation of smaller cartels. that are all kind of linked up, but pretty much historically who was considered.

the head of the Sinaloa cartel, Ismael Zambada, has been there since, you know, since the eighties. So in a way, yeah, he's persisting. He's surviving all of these presidencies. Again, these documents that were leaked. are a clear sign of what strengths and weaknesses. there are as far as the government's main weapon. against some of these criminal group, which is the military. And if people doubt this, they can look it up now online,

because all these documents are out there. But, you know, just a clear thing. The Mexican navy, or the marina, doesn't work with the Mexican army. They don't speak to each other. So that should tell you everything you need to know. as far as trust. - That could be just bureaucratic dysfunction. - They don't trust each other. - Are they both struggling with the problem of corruption? - Some of these documents that are already out there. talk about the ports in Mexico, which are probably the main conduit.

of precursors of methamphetamines. and precursors of things like fentanyl into the country. They're operated and guarded by the marina, right? So these things are happening under their watch. And then you get talk about the army in certain places, basically working counter-cartel operations. to specifically one side, not another, you know, as far as the rival groups out there, and we have a long history of some of these.

military groups going rogue, Los Zetas. are a prime example of this. These special forces units that basically. turned around and went to work as bodyguards. for the gulf cartel, and then decided to, but what they basically did was an internship. with a cartel, you know? They went out there, did bodyguarding for the gulf cartel, and then realized they can do a better job. than they were doing, so they started their own, sparking off, again, one of the bloodiest. kind of like internal cartel wars in Mexico's history.

- Who was El Chapo? - El Chapo was a part of the leadership, or at least a faction of the leadership in the Cartel. It's a federation of different small organization, well, I'd say small organizations, basically families or organizations. that conform this larger group, which is the Sinaloa cartel. that is based out of Sinoaloa. Basically, they are people that have. family and power nucleuses there in Sinaloa. I mean, who was he?

I think he was a high level operator for the Sinaloa cartel. He had his own drug routes, his own networks, his family nucleus down there is still in control. of some of those operations, so his arrest. really didn't change anything. But he wasn't the mastermind number one leader. that I think the media and the government. kind of portrayed him as, you know. - Who was the mastermind? - If you go down there and you read.

what most of the brave journalists. in Mexico that we have, say another aspect of this war. is that a lot of journalists get killed. I think Mexico has some of the top numbers in the world. And this is no secret to anybody. Ismael Zambada is the name of the historical figurehead. of this cartel, or at least somebody who. people theorize or suspect to be the main guy. or the main person that is in charge.

of some of this criminal group. - Is he still alive? - That's the going rumor that he's still very much alive. And the interesting thing about him. is that he learned his craft in Los Angeles. So, people thinking that Sinaloa cartel is a Mexican thing. It's actually, he apparently learned a lot of his craft. from people in the United States, you know. - And that's the craft of leadership, the craft of business, the craft of, which aspect of the craft? - The craft of getting a product from Colombia,

putting it through Mexico- - The logistics. - The logistics part of it. - And he somehow is operating in the shadows. So he's not a known entity. - I don't have a clear number of this, but he was interviewed by a magazine called Proceso. in Mexico, and some pictures were taken of him. This was over 10 years ago, probably. And that's the last time anybody's. ever seen a picture of him. - What's it like to be a journalist in that? So, can a journalist have a conversation with him and live?

- Not unless he asks to have that conversation. I think he reached out to this journalist to talk about it. There's a media wing to the work that we do, a sister page called Demo there. And it's run by some pretty good people. And the way we met is that I was basically training them. how to work in hostile environments, and they were like, "oh, we're gonna go report on cartel activity in Mexico.". And I was like, you know, that is, a year and a half ago,

a reporter went to the president's daily briefing, press conference that he has. They call them (speaking foreign language). The President, Manuel Lopez Obrador, and told him to his face, like, "I have threats on my life, they're trying to kill me.". And it happened. There's been a slew of assassinations and murders. of members of the press all over Mexico. It's not an easy job.

Either they say too much or they say things. that favor one side or the other, which is another aspect of it that is interesting. I don't consider myself a reporter. I don't report on the news in Mexico. I have friends that do that very well. I commentate on some of it only. But you see a lot of these cartel reporters. go down there, talk to a specific side, and basically speak one side of the story. And that is not something that the other side wants. You know, if you go down there and speak to one side,

you're saying what they want people to know or hear. So in a way, you're kind of spreading. some of their cartel propaganda, in a way. And that's how some people, you know, get shot. - Do you think it's possible to go in there. and have a conversation with a cartel leader? - Well, Sean Penn. - For somebody like me? For somebody like Sean Penn. - This is what I will say. After that whole Sean Penn thing, I think a lot of people would reconsider.

meeting with anybody of any level. that has any variety here in the United States. They wouldn't trust anybody to get that close. There are people out there that will talk to reporters, you know, people that are working on a laboratory. somewhere in a hillside, somewhere down south, you know, in the Sierra. Low level people that get authorization. to speak to reporters and stuff like that, but they don't say anything that isn't being taught. or shown, and there are various different ways. or outlets out there for them. I mean, some of these guys have Instagram accounts, you know, some of these guys blog about it.

- [Lex] But not the leaders. - TikTok, no, not the leaders. I think after what happened to a El Chapo Guzman, I think that that opportunity or that window was closed. for some of the leadership down there. - I think I disagree. I think they're just more sensitive, realizing that there has to be a deep trust. It's not just anybody and not any high profile. I've gotten a chance to speak to some. very high profile leaders that don't speak to journalists,

and they understand the value of trust. - If they have something to say, which I don't think they do, you know, I don't think they, unless at some point in the future, which is something I suspect might be coming, that there is some sort of armed intervention. and/or external attack on some of these criminal groups. that really puts the pressure on them. - You don't think there's a human aspect to this. of a human being wanting their story to be known,

versus this is different than the propaganda machine of, I have something to say, I have some message. to put out there to play the game of politics and power. and money and all that kind of stuff. Isn't there also a human being underneath all that armor. that, for the sake of perhaps ego, legacy, wants to be understood? - I think in a way they already do that. There's (speaking foreign language), which are basically Mexican folk songs.

that get sung about some of them. So in a way, some of these singers are reporting. on some of their lives, and it's like, it's a great honor to have a (speaking foreign language). made about you. Somebody made a (speaking foreign language) about me. based on my interviews, right? I didn't pay for it, so it's a real one. It feels cool. - So creating a myth, the legend of the man. - I think it's about, I think a way you can. find somebody like that is somebody that wants to.

get their story specifically clear and straight. You know, coming from that culture. and getting to work for the government down there, and then not working for the government down there. and being on the outside, being critical. of not only the government that is in place now, but also the government that i actually worked with, I can tell you that there's villains. all over the place down there. Everybody's a villain, you know, at all levels, in some way, shape or form. And some of these people, I think, in a way, including El Chapo, I think that some of that meeting.

was about film rights and stories. and being able to get his story out there. I think, I'm not too sure, 'cause I wasn't there, but I suspect that some of that was going on. If you can bring an honest voice down there, they can trust to put that out there. Yeah, I mean, I think you could try. - I'm interested in that kind of thing, because ultimately, in some of those places, like inside a cartel at the very top,

is when you can really look at the raw aspects. of human nature in a way you can't necessarily elsewhere. - There's a youth coming into power down there, and when I say a youth, I mean some of the old guard. is going out and some of the new guard is coming in. An example of this is El Chapo Guzman's sons, who are now in their own right kind of. gaining legendary status. His son, there was an attempted arrest on his son.

that led to the famous (indistinct) incident, which we are now learning more about because some of. the (indistinct) leagues are kind of. speaking more about what happened that day. Basically, a federal operation, they say, to arrest El Chapo Guzman's son. turned into a siege to try and get him free. They called in the cavalry, basically, the whole of the Sinaloa cartel showed up. to try and rescue him.

Interesting thing about that is in. reading some of the documents and also just. seeing some of the videos and stuff like that. came out of that incident. The cartels were the ones evacuating the citizenship. from the area. They were the ones going restaurant to restaurant saying, "hey, if you want to exit the city, go through here, take your families, get down, but you have to leave, because the army's coming here, they're gonna fight us.". - So there's like a deep morality to all of that. Underneath the violence, there's a humanity. - I mean, it's their home.

It is their home. And they were fighting for their home, and they were fighting for leadership from their home. There is a morality, there is a humanity there. And again, if people want to paint them all. with the villainy aspect, you know, I mean, everybody's a villain in somebody else's story. You know, if you kind of look at it that way. - People should check out your Patreon, should check out your field notes. You're a really good writer. Your Instagram too. You write about, you have a quote in your field notes. about villains.

"I once worked for a villain, a savior to some, and a biblical demon of old to others. A true product of his environment, he was the best and the worst of us. We're all potential villains in someone else's story. He would say to us, as we would head out into the unknowns, that the night had waiting for us. It was during one of these nights that I looked around me. and saw horns and pitchforks among my people. and realized what he meant.

We were no knights of the round table. Whatever we were, we were needed. In the end, I guess that justified. most of what was about to happen.". Do you think El Chappa, do you think. people like him are good or evil? - I think there's no one without the other. I think there's a cost to their goodness that they do, you know, the roads they build, the hospitals, the career paths that they pay for. There are doctors in Mexico that their careers.

were paid for by some of these groups, and they do a lot of amazing good for the community. I remember there was a... Surgeon reconstructing cleft palates. in one of my travels that I did out there. I spent some time actually going out there. after I got outta the job to train people, and the type of stuff that I show people, and they told them, "you're doing God's work.".

This stuff is like legit. "This is God's work," you know, building smiles for people and said, yeah, and then, can I talk to you? Yeah. He said, you know, my career path was paid for by. cartel, a group of cartel members. They paid for my career path because they wanted. somebody on hand that could fix their teeth. - Do you think some aspect of that. is just sort of manipulative control? Or is some of it also just, again, a care for the population for fellow human beings.

that are one of your own? - I think both, you know, I think there's, again, it's hard to just make them saints or devils, you know, some of the good they do. in some of their communities and don't ask. anything for in return, you know? And even if they don't ask it for anything in return. when the military shows up, they are immediately. met with rocks and roadblocks and everybody's. main weapon down there, since most Mexicans.

can't buy or own firearms, the main weapon down there. is silence and their eyes to report to the people. that they consider the good guys. in their environment, right? So... (Ed sighs). That's a hard question, you know, I think. there's a bit of both in both the government. and the criminal groups that are operating down there. - Silence is their main weapon. So El Chapo is currently in prison.

Is he worth talking to? - I'd say yes. - Is there things that you are interesting about him. that are still not understood? Is he a window into something that you don't understand. about that world still, or are curious about in that world? - I think he's a window into the family dynamics. of that world, I wanna say family dynamics. Mexico has a big thing about compadres, you know. (speaking foreign language). We have people that we call family. that are not necessarily our family. He is somebody that witnessed the construction.

of what is now the Sinaloa cartel. Like he was in it way back when he started off. as a farmer and then went into trafficking. He's from a town called (indistinct), which is basically, you know, that's the, the Wakanda of cartels, basically. That's where a lot of that originates. The things that he saw as far as. how some of these things got built, I think would be an interesting topic of conversation.

with somebody like him. - So that story is a story of evolving family dynamics. - [Ed] Yeah. - So part of the story of the cartel is individual humans. - Marrying other families, getting named. (speaking foreign language), basically godfathers. to other people's kids, forming family. and blood ties and influence ties to people, not only in Mexico, but in the United States. Seeing how that dynamic and family dynamic. is still there, you know. So he's gone, he's in prison, but he is.

probably on his way to be our next clandestine saint. You go to the chapel of (indistinct), is basically a Mexican Robin Hood, the folk saint down there, who is a saint of traffickers. And at his shrine, you have a small little. Chapo shrine right next to it. So he's on his way to sainthood in Mexico, you know, not recognized by the Catholic Church, but that doesn't matter in Mexico anymore.

Speaking to somebody like him, who, you can consider him. somebody that lost, you know, he's arrested, but his family's okay. His legacy is out there. He's probably gonna be the next folk saint. when he passes away. - Do you think he feels like the new wave. of what the cartel has become has betrayed him. and left him behind, or, because it seems like. the way the cartel operated has changed over the decades.

- Yeah. Well, number one, their power and influence is bigger. You know, there are senior lower cartel operations. in Colombia, straight to like, in the source of it. And then they have a clear presence. in places like Chicago, in Los Angeles, they're in the United States. The whole thought process that a lot of Americans have. like, ah, we don't want that trouble over here. We don't want 'em to get here or like, build the wall and all this.

- So they're deeply integrated into legitimate businesses. - I mean, they've been having kids and families up here. for a long time. Some of these people have American passports. that work not only directly for them, but have blood ties down there. There's been dragnets and arrests of some of these. criminal organizations stateside. New Generation cartel had one, two, three years ago where, think it was Operation Anaconda, I think it was called. They arrested over 80 of their operatives. And this is a new cartel that is very militaristic. and growing in Mexico, and they had over 80 arrests.

in the United States, you know, of members of them operating here. - And so you could be a legitimate operator. inside the United States that's hard to detect. Makes you wonder how many in the US government, the politicians here. The role of the United States in the drug war, financially in terms of power, is very big. - [Ed] Yeah. - Surely there's politicians that have a finger into this.

- Immigration is part of it. Illegal immigration is part of it, and the influence of that has, as a bargaining chip. and a political chip. We saw this with the first caravan kind of coming up. and how it was politicized, the money, fast and furious, and guns being basically let walk down into Mexico, people that don't know, basically the ATF. had this operation where they were looking at. straw purchasers of firearms, basically people. buying up a specific type of firearms.

that were on a shopping list that the cartels wanted to buy, including, you know, 50 cals, FN-57 pistols, which are small pistols with a high velocity round. that'll go through a bulletproof vest, AR-15s of all kinds that could quickly be modified. into full auto down in Mexico with drilling a few holes. and making a few things to them. So these people were buying all these, the ATF was watching them and allowing them. to walk those firearms into Mexico.

under the guise of trying to track 'em somehow, which doesn't make a lot of sense for most people. to kind of look at that operation. The only reason people found out about it. was because of the murder of a few federal agents, of US federal agents that were killed with those guns. One of my friends was shot with one of those pistols. outside of his house, and they shot him. and they shot his wife, both of them were killed. Daughter was in the backseat, lost part of her arm. When that happened, the guns were unique.

They were like, oh, we didn't ever, (speaking foreign language) is what. they call them down there, the cop killers. I hadn't seen those before. So, they were unique and interesting, and later on in life, I was watching CNN and seeing the hearings going on. I was like, oh, that's where they came from. Two federal agents changed a lot and it was politicized, there was a whole scandal up here, but in Mexico, how many people died with those firearms, you know,

being let go down there? And also, what type of sentiment do you think. the local populace has of the United States. after all those guns were basically. handed over to some of these groups? You know, gun trafficking is another. giant part of the equation and part of. the problem down there as far as. the amount of munitions weapons. And now we were also getting trade craft material. from conflict zones outside of Mexico. So weaponized drones, the first time we saw.

some of those weaponized drones was in Syria. And like a few weeks later, you know, grenades were being dropped on the roofs. of some public official's building. - The cartels are using drones? - Yeah, that's been going on for a while. There's a place in (indistinct) has some. pretty interesting videos, and the interesting part of it. is because the federal police down there. are actually working hand in hand. with a United Cartel (indistinct) group,

which is basically the local cartels, to try and fight off the New Generation cartel. moving into (indistinct). So even the federal forces are fighting with the cartels. to try and keep this larger cartel out. And there's videos of these civilian drones. basically dropping explosives. They found some explosive testing ranges out there. that are basically replicating stuff that you would see. the IRA use during the troubles out there. from homemade mortars, you know, IEDs have been used in Mexico, not that much,

but they're making like a presence again, you know, we don't have a lot of ordinance around like Iraq, but we do have a big mining industry down there. So mining, explosives of all kinds are pretty easy to get. So you start seeing that, and also, I mean, there's some exotic weaponry coming in. from the south now, and from the ocean, that some of it is probably US military equipment. sold to various South American governments. that are now not as stable as they were,

and they're kind of making their way into black markets. So a lot of those 50 cal and vehicle mounted. technical type machine guns and some of the RPGs. and man pads or remote control guided missiles. that have been found in cartel hands. are probably making their way up from down south. - Do you get these like multimillion dollar systems, like the Highmar system in the Ukraine, you get like super sophisticated advanced technology. or not, so like, this is like military grade.

I'm not sure what the application would be. exactly in a Mexico drug war. - Some of the sophisticated stuff I see are man pads, which is basically remote guided missiles. Yeah, I've seen some of those found down there. - What is the application exactly? A display of power? - There are no fly zones over parts of Mexico. - For this reason. - The New Generation cartel took down a helicopter. There's been incidents of military helicopters. falling from the sky and they've said.

that it was mechanical issues, but again, I'm not gonna do conspiracy theories out there, but there's a lot of videos on TikTok. of Sinaloa cartel forces at parties, you know, carrying around rocket launchers. on their backs and you know, so. - So there's an increased probability of mechanical failures. over those areas when you're flying a helicopter. (laughs). - Yeah, there's no fly zones over some parts of Mexico. - Okay.

Oh man. - Another thing you're seeing now is night vision, night vision equipment that is clearly military grade. from the US that was probably abandoned. in some war field out there, maybe Afghanistan. or somewhere like that, and it's being found. in safe houses and in the hands of cartel forces. You wanna talk about a scary opponent, somebody wearing night vision with a suppressed firearm. Those types of capabilities are now out there. Also, there's this tendency to think,

and every now and then you'll see these cartel videos. with these guys carrying around these 50 cals. and they show up, stand there like, eh, you know, the boasting about the rifles, and everybody laughed at them. because the 50 cal or anything like that. without an optic on it, you know, is like, you're gonna shoot, you pray and shoot, basically, see if you can hit anything with it. But now there's a few of my sources have seen, you know, sophisticated laser-guided range finders. and sighting systems on some of these.

that are being found out there. - How much damage can 50 cal, what's the application? - They started getting them specifically. with the proliferation of armored vehicles in Mexico. Mexico has a giant industry in armored vehicles as far as-. - So there's a race in terms of armoring, like protecting. especially high-value targets, and then. weapons that can deal with those armored, protected high-value targets. - There was an attempted assassination. of a state prosecutor somewhere in, I think Central Mexico,

I forget exactly where, but she was riding around. a uparmored Jeep Cherokee, I think it was, and their main means of firepower was 50 cals, and that car was left in pieces. She survived in it, so I think the armored vehicle company. that sold her that vehicle has it in the display room. Then before my time, probably two, three years. before I was actually active, they tried to kill.

the head of public security in the state of Baja. And with him, it was a grenade launcher, 40 millimeter grenade launcher. It skipped off the armored vehicle and landed. in the car behind it, made the back explode. One of the guys that I used to work. with was actually in that car, survived it. But you started to see, oh, they're, you know, using armored vehicles now, so let's get 50 caliber now. to try and defeat that armor. So that, yeah, there's always this race of technology,

basically, down there. Armored vehicles, you know, how do you take on. an armored vehicle? Well, there's a few ways, 50 cals, you know, if you can mount them in a right way. and shoot at a car like that, or a bunch of kids. with balloons and a acrylic paint. on the front windshield and blind the vehicle. so they can't drive it anymore is another way. Tow line across a road painted black. so you can't see it and cut the thing in half.

Again, I'm not saying any secrets, these are things that people have seen out there. Shoot at the radiator, you know, some of these radiators are not, even the more sophisticated vehicles out there. don't have a sufficient armoring around the radiator. or the battery housing on some of these vehicles. There was a case of a guy, I think his nickname. was (indistinct) or something like that. Sinaloa level cartel guy. He had an armored vehicle, he was, you know, riding around and he got ambushed. They shot at his car and he was like, "ah, I have armor, you can't shoot me.".

And somebody went up to his car and just. put the barrel right in the locking mechanism. and that got him, you know. So it's an interesting place as far as. people getting certain types of guns. Armor is prolific down there. I mean, everybody down there, the cartel members, you see them wearing plate armor. So that's an issue. It's not like you can shoot somebody square in the chest. and they'll go down. - Are they afraid to kill Americans?

So I know, I was traveling in Ukraine on the front, so like a lot of the journalists would travel. in like armored vehicles. And at first I was like, it seems like. this would attract attention. - Yeah. - Like, it seems like they would want to hit those targets. But then I realized over time, as I learned, there's a fear of killing Americans. There could be a drastic escalation of-. - Yeah, it's not worth it. - Of conflict. - It's kicking a beehive. Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah, there is a tendency to shy away.

or stay away from that, you know. I mean, they don't want the heat or the attention. - Outside of that, everyone's game. Everyone's game, but also there's been many cases. of Americans being killed down there. I mean, we saw the Mormon massacre that happened down there, and all of them were American, Mexican, they had both nationalities, and blonde kids, you know, white being massacre in the middle of a desert, and the cars basically catching fire.

This happened and, you know, the Americans. sent the FBI down there to kind of. review some of what happened down there. And I think that was when Trump started talking about. kind of reviving this whole notion of cartels. being labeled as a terrorist organization, probably more for of a political pressure point. he was using to try and get Mexico to reinforce. its southern border, which it hasn't. But there's escalation, you know, this already happened.

and nothing happened, so we can. probably get away with it, you know? And again, there's a newer generation moving forward now. of people coming into power. - More brutal, more technically savvy. - Well, they have the experience of their parents. and the people behind them and what they've done. and gotten away with, and now, yeah, more savvy about information warfare. Their main recruiting tool is TikTok. You go to TikTok and you'll see a bunch of these kids. at a narco party dancing around,

and some of these are videos like cartel members. filming other cartel members in cartel-controlled territory. And that's a window into that life for, who's on TikTok now? Kids. - And the enticing aspect of that is the money, the fun, the high roller life. - And the possibility of making it to a level, you know? - Yeah. Of fame, of respect, power. Money. - Here in the US, somebody might, you know,

"I want a mansion," like that's their mindset. I want to live, you know, like that rapper. Down there, I mean, if you can buy a house. for your mom, you know? Or pay off some debts that you might have, or a car. That's enough to kill for. - Yeah. So you also, one of the main things you did. is you did security, try to protect, in this war, try to protect people, high value people. - [Ed] Yeah. - How do you do, you and others, how is it possible to protect a high-value target,

like a celebrity or an important politician, in this situation? - So I was tasked to protect the governor of Baja. and his family. I was basically replacing a whole contingency of people. that were already there that turned out to be corrupted. That was in my field, I was operational, I was working with other people. doing the counter-narcotics stuff, and the director of the institution that I was in. basically called me in and said, "hey, you're gonna go and replace these people.".

And I, "what happened to them?". Well... - So you were known as a person. that could be kind of trusted. - I was tasked for that, so I think they considered that. And I specifically worked for a governor. named Jose Guadalupe Osuna Millan, who was probably. one of the best governors we have had in the state. And people wanna see if I'm trustworthy or not, they can ask him directly, and I still speak. to some of members of his family and we're still,

you know, friends in that way. - Is protecting people like, technically. a difficult problem to solve? - From my experience in that time and place, he was basically spearheading, you know, the drug war in Baja when he was in power. So he had threats from all over. Not only him, but his family. First thing I realized working that job in Mexico. is that we had people coming in. to do specialized training in that regard. Israelis, you know, teaching us.

how they would do things in Israel. That didn't make a lot of sense for us in Mexico, you know? We had people that had some secret service experience. kind of showing us how they would do. like celebrity bodyguarding or bodyguarding somebody. maybe in California, of that nature. Didn't make sense for us. Then we got to experience some cross-training. with some NSW, Naval Special Warfare people, who were coming off protection details. in Afghanistan and Iraq. - Is there some useful crossover there?

- We were struggling with the acceptance. that we were basically doing protection details. in a war zone. - So the approach that had to be taken in Mexico. was similar to the approach you would take. in Afghanistan, during a war. - Some of the overt militaristic type approaches. to security that we had to adopt, you know, from, we didn't move him in a single armored vehicle, we had two of them that looked exactly alike. So when we would move around, we would. switch one car with the other.

Every now and then, we would arrive to an event, they would open the door and it would be one of us. and they were like, "hey, like, where's the governor?". "He's in the back one," so they would move to that. So we had to do stuff like that. And again, this is a young me who didn't have. any specialized training. I was on YouTube learning some of these things, going online, learning about armor vehicles, learning about architectural armor. - I think you just described a large percentage. of the Ukrainian military, how they operate, which is on YouTube trying to figure out. how to use some of this tech, and that's.

actually incredibly effective. - Yeah. - You know, I do quite a lot of stuff. where I'm totally not an expert, totally uneducated and so on. It's kind of surprising how quickly you can get caught up, as we were talking offline, you take a course, if you talk to an expert, if you learn from an expert, you can like, catch up really quickly. - For me, it was all of a sudden I have this. director calling me in and I'm wearing Vans, you know, and jeans, you know, T-shirt, and all of a sudden. I had 80-some people that I had to move around,

and I was in charge of securing planes, and which, what do I know about that? Airport hangers, armored vehicle maintenance. and purchasing and figuring out how to set up. a counter-assault group for a protection detail. And I was like, where I'm gonna learn all this? - Were you able to quickly figure some of these things out? - On the fly, basically, you know? As I was going, I remember having this experience, being in our security office on my laptop,

figuring out how to set up a counter-surveillance side. to our protection detail. Basically, how to have people looking for people. that might be looking for us, you know, type thing. And then going to San Diego, to Coronado, and training with some people from former SEAL guys. and NCIS people who did that job in war zones, and seeing them critique some of the solutions.

that we came up with on the fly and being like, oh, we never saw that before. Oh yeah, we're doing it down there. So, getting that compliment, and also getting. their, you know, feedback, like, we'd probably do this. or do that, and it was a learning process on the fly. that was pretty, I mean, seat of your pants level. - Is it possible for the family. and for the high value person to have a sense of normalcy, to have a normal life? - I mean, I tried. I was already starting off on the wrong foot, basically,

because trust had been violated by the people. that I was replacing, so I had to gain that back. Then young kids in that family that wanted to have, you know, go out and stuff like that. in the most violent city on the planet. So I had to do my homework and figure out places. where they were safe to go to and make friends. with certain club owners and figure out ways. to put security in some of these places, and having to create this bubble of normalcy.

around some of these people was pretty difficult, and there's no way that is normal for anybody, and you know, God bless them. I know it wasn't easy, and I know it affected their lives. and they lost on a big part of their youth. being under that security supervision and bubble, probably does a lot for somebody. specifically growing up like that, you know. You lose opportunities of things that we take for granted.

You know, just going out, just not telling anybody. and going to the store, you know, because you wanna get some snacks or something like that, that's not available to some of these people. - I have to be honest, when I was in Ukraine, that was a really big benefit. - You'd escape? - No, I couldn't hang out, I couldn't eat. When I'm stressed, I would fast and not eat much, so I lost weight, so it was great, it was great for the diet. - That's a good diet to be in, basically be under protective custody. That's a good idea for a new diet.

- And just life, allowed me to focus, get a lot of reading done, focus on. the important things in life. I mean, I joke of course, but there's some. complexity to this in terms of the normalcy. of the family, but also just how to operate, like have a mental clarity and a lack of fear. Just basically be good at your job, whatever that job is. If as a politician, as a leader, even as a soldier. - Somebody that, again, I think it was (indistinct).

said this to me, or said something like this. to a group of us, that there's nothing wrong. with being paranoid. It's about educating your paranoia. and knowing what to be afraid of. If you're afraid of everything, you know, you're basically overwhelmed. But if you start educating yourself as far as. specifically what to prioritize as far as. what to worry about in a war zone, working, protecting somebody, you know, you're not looking at everybody's faces, you're just looking at their hands. because that's what's gonna kill you. You know, that's an example of vocalizing,

you know, what you're paranoid and what you're afraid of. - So looking at the hands, that's specific. to a particular situation, but also figuring out. which situations to avoid and which it's okay. I mean, that's like ultimately one of the biggest things. you could do. - Yeah. Route analysis, you know, you have to get to the airport. and you send off two cars to analyze two routes, and then on the fly, you just change trajectory. to create randomness, unpredictability,

and have that as a security feature. Having a convoy of four vehicles. separated into two convoys and show up. in different parts to, again, make it hard for people. to guess where you're gonna be. Putting out false information as far as. where's gonna be, who's gonna be, and that type of stuff. - It's kind of amazing how many assassination attempts. Hitler avoided just by having a pretty strict schedule. and being a little bit off in terms of timing,

just like showing up 15 minutes late. or to a slightly different location. - We were going through training specifically. around this type of stuff, and operational training. Basically showing us how to ambush people. You know, when I started making a group for myself. as far as counter-ambush, you know, this CAT teams that they call 'em up here in the US, basically a group to respond to a high violent ambush. First off, the first rule, if you find yourself. in an ambush, it wasn't a successful ambush.

Because if you find yourself in it, you're alive, you know? - [Lex] Yes. - But if you want to create an amazing counter-ambush team, you have to, you know, you have to make 'em ambushers. And with ambushing, you figure out. where all the opportunities of not only. successfully doing what you need to do are in your favor, but also to escape with your life, you know? We're not gonna be received by virgins in heaven. That's not the type of mentality that we had down there.

But when you start learning about some of these things, and also seeing, you know, cartel forces. apply some of these ambush tactics. to the military or the federal forces. - What is an ambush? What are we talking about? So that's a surprise attack with an asymmetry of power. kind of thing? - Yeah. There's a contingency somewhere moving towards. a place that you control and own, where you have the advantages, where they can't see you, but you can see them, where they can't predict you, but you can predict where they're gonna pass, go through, you know, places where they forcibly have to pass,

places where they're predictable, places where you can not only predict, but also have a plan for yourself to escape. and exit that place. - So how do you transfer counter-ambush? - You turn into like a perfect ambusher. That's how you train for counter-ambush. - So always trying to make sure. you have more information about other people, you have the element of surprise, all of those things. - And Masashi would say, "know your enemy, know his sword.". Basically that, you know, simplified. - But there's a lot of enemies around you in Mexico,

there's a lot of uncertainty, right? Because it's, well, I guess that's what route analysis is. - Yeah, you prepare for the probable. And if the impossible happens, you're halfway out of it, hopefully, you know. And if you're finding yourself in an ambush, it wasn't a successful one. But as far as our training and kind of the mindset, my experience with it, the adversarial thinking part of it. has always been a very powerful one. I think one that a lot of people ignore, kind of like leave to the wayside.

Specifically in all conflicts out there, there's a tendency for a military force. or a conventional force of any kind. to be trained in a way where they dehumanize the enemy. - [Lex] Yeah. - And when that happens, you become blind. to the enemy's story. It's his capability, his story, his ability. If you treat the other side like an inhuman monster, it's hard to take notes, you know? - So there's a part of this is a radical empathy.

for the quote-unquote enemy. - At least for me personally. I wasn't one of the guys that would, you know, grab them and beat the shit out of them. and put 'em in the back of a van, just tie 'em up and gag 'em. - So you were able to see them as human. - I learned that from my mother, you know, she said, "nobody's against you, Ed, they're for themselves. Learn this and you will make friends of enemies.". She said that when I graduated, and I've carried that with me throughout my whole career. - But isn't there then a pain of killing another human? - Always.

- But there isn't, again, I apologize to go back to Ukraine, it's my only experience of this kind of harshness. - And it is a powerful experience. - There's a dehumanization that happens. I suppose this is common in war. There's something like a video game aspect. where people are almost having fun. There's a humor. And I think underneath that, the prerequisite. is to see the enemy in the same way you see the enemy. when you play "Call of Duty.". You don't really think, you think of them as NPCs, the bad guys.

The Russians are called Orcs in Ukraine. I mean, there's all kinds of other names. - For us it, was (speaking foreign language). Like dirty people, you know. There's always something. - Over time, those are just words, but over time it gathers a kind of, like a meaning to it. that's more than just the words. Orcs, they're less than human. - Yeah. - They're dirty, they're too dumb to understand. the evil they're doing, or whatever the-. - It's useful, it's useful.

- Yeah. - It's part of the program. - But like that's what, and I've talked to soldiers, and some of them do have stories. of momentarily remembering that there's a human. on the other side. I talked to one woman who's this really badass soldier, and she saw this really brave soldier on the other side. do something that was almost stupid, how brave it was. And then she was trying to shoot him, and she missed,

and she said she couldn't sleep the night after, thinking, why did she miss, why did she miss? And then she thought she missed because he was a hero. And she had this brief realization that there was. a hero on the other side, like the other side has heroes. - [Ed] Yeah. - But then that quickly disappeared again, but she had this moment, there's a human being. that rises to defend his nation, to defend his people,

and he could be heroic on the other side. - There are things that we're trained to depress. or conceal or hide and kill in us. when you're trained for something like that, or when you're in a conflict zone like that. and you hear the narrative constantly being blared out. that the other side is a orc or you know, whatever word you want to use. But, you know, we live in a day and age. when you can see Americans going off to Japan. and shaking hands with some of their former enemies. I mean, some of us have seen that, and how things change.

I think years from now, a lot of the stuff. that we are taking right now as of the utmost importance. won't matter anymore. - The question is how many years? That's the question I asked of a lot of people. in that part of the world. And a lot of them currently, they're also. self-aware about it. They're like, I'm not sure I trust my current feelings. But the current feelings are generational. Like for decades, I will not just hate.

the leadership, I will hate all of Russian people. - I can't understand that on my side of my life experience. because, you know, our war has been an internal war, you know, amongst our people, amongst our houses. - While that is the propaganda, there's also a deep grain of truth. that there is a oneness to the people of that region. But people will get very offended at that idea, because right now it's a very strong nationalist borders. But there is a cultural history that connects people.

I mean, in some deep sense, we're all connected. We all come from Western Africa and then. all came from fish before then, depending on. your view of history, of life on Earth. But there is a oneness to us, and often. you forget that in conflict. - I had an experience working. There was a friend of mine who took the other path. and went to work for some of these criminal groups. I was operational and I was...

We saw a bunch of people in a gas station, parked. Back then, the main, you know, modus operandi. that they had was that they would impersonate. or dress up as federal police. And that's how they would move around the city. We saw these suburbans in a gas station, and some of the guys were carrying around AK-47s, you know, and that's not a standard issue firearm. So, you know, we saw that, and I got off on foot.

and walked by to try and get a, you know, better sense of what was going on. I took everything off, wearing jeans and a T-shirt. And I got a whistle from one of the guys that was there. and my name was called. It was one of the guys that I grew up with. Redhead kid, looked like El Canelo, you know.

There's redheads in Mexico, by the way. I think it's probably some of the Irish. that betrayed the American side. during the last Mexico-American war. that stayed down there, had a bunch of kids. So he's probably from there. - Love is stronger than anything else, I think. - So this redhead kid, you know, when I say kid, I mean he was my age, now to my eyes, he's always gonna be younger now. He whistled, old my name, he's like, "hey!". (speaking foreign language). I'm like, "what are you doing here?". He's like, "ah, just, you know, going home.".

I said, "look, going and get a taxi.". He's like, "oh, okay.". As he walks over, it's like, he has a plate carrier. with AK round magazines on his chest. AK without a stock on it, just carrying in his hand. He comes over and he hugs me. Like I feel the magazines on my chest, you know. Mind you, I have a gun on me, you know, tucked, and Nextel is buzzing in my back pocket.

as people are trying to, you know, figure out what's going on. He asked me small talk shit, like, "hey," he's like, "what are you doing?". Like, " what do you work at?". And I was like, "ah, just looking for a job, you know, used to work at a video store.". So he's like, "ah, I haven't seen you in a while. How's so-and-so of your family?". "Good, how's so-and-so of your family?". "Good.". It's like, yeah, this is an interesting job you have. He's like, "yeah, it's pretty good. They pay us well, you know, you get a car,

you know, there's money and nobody fucks with you, you get respect.". I was like, "that's awesome.". "And if you want, I can get you in. You know, if you want that.". It's like, "ah, I'm too much of a coward for that,". I told him. - Conversation like any other. - Yeah. - Between two friends. - He hugs me before I go. I said something to him, I can't remember what. And he says, "hey," in my ear. "I know what you do for a living. It's not a safe place for you to be.".

And I walk off. A few moments later, the army showed up, and you... Could feel the amount of rounds going off. from two blocks away. We came back with our guys, and it was over.

- So he didn't survive that. - I looked through the bodies and the cars that were left. You know, there was bodies all over the place. People left there. It was a mess. Spent like an hour looking for him. The only way I could recognize him was his hair. I stayed with his body all night.

There's a bridge in Tijuana that goes over the river. in a place called La Mesa, and that's where. the forensic offices were, and his body was taken there, and I stayed with his body until it was released. I told his family about it. 'Cause I knew them. And that aspect of, you know, us versus them, or they're the enemy and shit like that. My mom told me those words, "nobody's against you, they're just for themselves, so don't make the mistake.

of dehumanizing anybody.". - And those roles could have been easily reversed. - I could have been shot in the face there. That aspect, that conflict brings where, let's say, bad guys, good guys, you know. Heroes, villains, you know, hey, there's an innocence to that that goes away. - Is your mom still with us? - No, almost three weeks before I decided to quit, she passed away. - Did that have a role to play?

- A major one. After I got done on the protection detail with the governor, Like everything down there again, the whole cycle, you know, he got his turn, so when he went away, you know, politics change, and down there, basically if you're a gubernatorial candidate, you have either a friend, a friend of a friend, or a family member be the head bodyguard guy, and the guy that won the elections.

had his head bodyguard guy already there. So all of us were sent back to the whatever we came from. So I went back to work on the streets. I was back on the operations group. I was working with the sub-director, directly with him, basically, back on the ground. doing the stuff that I was doing before that job. We were moving away from the successes. that had been had by people like (indistinct). when they were in charge of that whole process, the people that I used to work with.

Some of the only successes in that counter. push against cartels in Mexico, and you can kind of like, it's documented, you can read about it out there, a bunch of people wrote papers on it. Some of the only successes were had by (indistinct). in the places where he had leadership. He not only pacified Tijuana, he also did. the same in Juarez. He was sent to be the police chief in Juarez too. But politics change and, you know, heroes become villains. A lot of people started calling him a villain.

because of his unorthodox approach. and human rights violations and all of this type of stuff. kind of come to the forefront. And people forgot, you know, people forgot. what it took to get Tijuana off the most dangerous city. list on the planet. And people were vilified. People like him. And the police force that I was a part of. started getting compromised. A lot of the things that were put forth. to try and keep us honest, there was a program,

they had these centers called C3s. Basically, you would go there every year, you would get your financials checked, you would get a physical, psychological evaluation, you would get a polygraph exam done on you, the works, to try and see if you were somebody doing something wrong. And all of that was canceled because it violated. your human rights if you get fired from a job. because of a failed polygraph exam. Because that was not an actual admissible way.

of firing somebody. So all of a sudden you had people that were known cartel. compromised people that were fired five, six years ago, showing back up to work with their back pay and everything. So this is- - Wow. - So this started happening, and I quickly realized. that it was gonna be hard to stay there. I was driving home from work and I got.

a call from my brother that... My mom had been going through some health issues. that had turned into some psychiatric issues. So we were basically taking turns. trying to take care of her, you know, locking the door so she wouldn't wander off. and stuff like that, so, not only was I. dealing with the job on the street, but I was dealing with that, and also I had.

a two-year-old and a marriage that was. difficult at that time. So I was trying to figure all these things out. - Made more difficult by your job. - Yeah, it's not a financially secure job, you know, and the pressures that it has and the odd hours. and all that made it really hard. And then all of a sudden, my brother calls me. and tells me that, "let's go to the hospital.". My mom, something happened to my mom.

It wasn't my turn to watch her, so I felt pretty shitty about that. I got to the hospital and... The doctors, you know, came out and told us. that she was gone. It was a massive heart attack. She had a pacemaker by then, so she was gone. She was in her sixties. So it was, you know, we kind of expected something,

but not, you know, that was like, hard for me. She was my center. She was gonna be the one that I would ask for advice. as far as work, you know, if I should leave it or not. - The ground was removed from under you. - There was nobody. Yeah, there's nothing underneath me. I get three days off work. That's what they gave me. And I'm trying to grieve as I go back to work.

Dark shit crosses my mind as I'm going through. that process of trying to figure things out. - [Lex] Dark, like suicide dark shit? - Yeah. - So it was very low for you. It hit very hard. - Yeah. I wasn't allowed to grieve, basically. And I wasn't allowed to grieve for a few years. for different reasons. I went back to work. - Weren't allowed, other people, or also you yourself. were not allowing yourself to grieve? - There was other people with me. that didn't allow me to grieve, you know.

I went to work, got called into the office. and I was basically told that I was gonna be reassigned, after what I just went through. The reassignment was going to be something. that I saw as unacceptable. It was, the people in charge at that point. were obviously corrupted, and what I got. from their conversation was that they wanted us. to work for a specific side.

And I knew that that was the time to go. I asked for a license, basically a license. is unpaid absence from work, basically, a leave of absence, I think it's what you call it up here, which by law is allowed. And I was denied, for no reason. So I'm invested in this job, you know.

I have a good salary, and I have a category in there, so the level of time you spend in there, you get a category. So I was a pretty high category agent. I had all this training, and again, training that would be useless in the private sector, in the public sector in Mexico. I couldn't change from one corporation to another, I couldn't go to work for another police institution. So, I took a deep breath and I resigned.

I went to the office, I said, "I need to resign.". They said, "what?". "I need to resign.". Some of the people in the office that knew me. from a long time were like, what's wrong with you? They thought I was having a mental breakdown. Handed over all the paperwork, took a big trash bag, put all my stuff in there, plate armor, tear gas grenades, gas mask, satellite radio, MP5 magazines, an MP5 submachine gun,

Glock, Glock magazines, all of it, helmet. And I handed it over in the armory and I left. I made some phone calls. I was married to an American, and my daughter's American. I never envisioned myself coming to the United States, do that process for myself, you know, 'cause I was invested in that job, I thought I was gonna die or retire from that.

And it quickly became like an issue. because everybody was wondering why. I left the job so abruptly. So, there were some threats made when I left. by people inside the office, and I probably, you know, it was anonymous shit. - So there's significant pressure not to leave. It's hard to leave this kind of job. - [Ed] Yeah. - The system makes it difficult to leave. The individuals, to the degree they might be corrupted,

really don't want you to leave. - There's no support. Yeah, there's no support. - It's probably the opposite of support. - Yeah. - Almost like implied or explicit or implicit threats. - Yeah. Luckily, I had developed some friendships. in the United States with some of the people. that I used to work with and cross-trained with, and some friendships that I'd developed. with people that I would just talk to. and make friends with stateside. One of them was, is a Navy SEAL reservist.

whose name is Dan Stansfield, and his wife Kelly. They opened the doors of their house to me. and my kid and my wife at that time, as I seeked to basically look for the American dream. I crossed the border with my kid, and nobody knew anything, you know, didn't tell anybody, just, you know,

my wife, and I was off. When I came to the States, I already kind of. dabbled in the whole training field and showing. some of my experience to people. So I had at least a seed of that out there. People knew me for that. But all of a sudden, I was in the middle. of an avocado orchard in the middle of California,

and everything's quiet, and there's no more. radios going off all of the night, there's no more. three cell phones on the counter, there's no guns, there's no rifles, there's no 80 people. calling to see what's going on, there's nothing. It's just quiet. And it's during the time when Trump got elected, so the immigration process that usually would take,

I had most things go in for me, and immigration process. that would take at the most of the year, it took two years. So I was not an easy process, to not only. come to the US but, you know, come to the US. with that pressure, kind of underlying pressure. as far as being an immigrant at that time here. - And then your own personal psychological, the PTSD. of going from a war zone to a avocado orchard.

- The word PTSD, and TBI, and all of these things, I didn't know any of them. It was through people that I got to meet. in the training field that were, you know, marines, SEALs, (indistinct) guys, those types of people, that started giving words to some of the things that I felt, which I didn't really know, you know. We would treat post-traumatic stress.

with alcohol and vacation time. - Yeah. - Bottle of mescal, you know. When you see the bottom of it, your troubles are gone. - Cured. - Yeah, immediately. I was an alcoholic as well as all the other stuff. I was drinking myself to sleep every third night. My marriage obviously was failing, you know, it wasn't easy for her, you know.

She was brave and she did what she could, and I totally respect and understand her process with it. But you know, when it's quiet, that's when it hits you. I think that's what a lot of people experience. when they come back from a conflict zone. You know, the, everything that was life and death, everything that mattered, all the noise, all the chaos, all the people that are around you that would die for you, kill for you, you would kill for them. All these millions of dollars worth of equipment.

and stuff like that you were responsible for, now all are all gone and it's just you. walking into a Circle-K and buying three cans of Fosters. to drink yourself to sleep. - Yeah, you write on your Patreon brilliantly about PTSD, about the cost of things you've done and seen. "When it's over and we are far from that chaos. and noise of death being close and life being real,

that is when some of us remember, in the quiet nights in a field in Tennessee. looking at fireflies, walking through a fair, holding hands with a lover, asking you what's wrong. At your kid's birthday party, leave early. to avoid the ending of a celebration. That is what the quiet means to some of us.". So that's speaking to that silence, the quiet. How do you live with and thrive with. this newly learned term of PTSD?

- If anything, I would recommend people. that have any of these issues to go to places. where other people have their issues so you can, it's not a competition, but you get to see. the scope of problems in the world, and you sometimes feel kind of lucky as far as your own. - Like it humbles you. - Yeah. - It makes you appreciate all the different kinds. of struggles that people go through. - Yeah, I mean, I went through some horrible shit, but there's some people there that went through. more horrible shit or stuff that I don't think.

I could have survived. When I went through that process of figuring things out, you know, the first thing that glaringly pointed out. or stuck out to me was my inability to process things. Like there was a big pause button there, a giant one. Everything was on pause. My grieving, not only my mom, but my brother. So I had a pause button on me since I were 13, basically. Then I got to bury many of my friends,

inform their wives or girlfriends of what happened. And that all, again, was paused. because I wasn't allowed to process. You know, I spent years without going on vacation. because I was a workaholic. And I found at the core of my issues, alcohol. A giant pause button in the form of alcohol, basically.

I would drink my problems away, or specifically, it's like if you have a mess in your house, you just put a big tarp over it, you know, to cover it up, and alcohol was that for me. And it festered more and more as I. not only went through the process of learning about PTSD. going through therapy, but refusing to let that go. You know, it's like going through therapy. and seeing what other people's problems were, and I don't wanna, you know, this is the only thing I have. I'm not hurting anybody with it, you know?

Why do I need to get rid of that? By this point, I was traveling across the country. and training people and showing some of the experiences. that I had to other people, speaking, being on podcasts and having conversations. like the one I'm having with you. - So speaking to the skills that you developed. - And in a way basically reliving and reopening. a bunch of shit for myself every time I do it. So I was getting triggered, and the way I would manage that.

was I would drink, you know, at the end of the night, after a weekend class somewhere, when I'd talk about the fireflies and a field in Tennessee, it was a moment where I was forcing myself. to try and be sober, and we did this medical class. out in the hills in Tennessee, it was. a beautiful green place, beautiful family there. that hosted us. And it's the first time I ever saw fireflies. So I was like, thought I was having. a hallucinogenic experience.

When I say, why is the dust glowing, you know? Is what I thought. A friend of mine is a veteran. He just ran off to the woods and grabbed one. and brought it to me and showed it to me. and was like, holy shit, what is that? It's a firefly. Wow. How do they glow? I don't know. And he just crushed it in his hand and said, "it's gone.". And you know, brought me back immediately to, holy shit, you know, it kind of like, I was off somewhere and I was back, and I had to go drink.

I went through that process of like going off it, getting on it, going off, getting off, and my marriage separated. And that was another end of the world aspect. to everything, you know. I lost my mother, I lost the job, and then the marriage failed, and it was on me. I...

Basically went somewhere and did a stock of everything. that was going on. And made a decision to stop drinking, and had some bad relationships after, and I just came to a place where I need to stop drinking. - You'd gotten to a point so low, it was just a decision you arrived at by yourself?

Was there some inspiration, or was it just. the point is so low, lost so much. - It was the start of COVID. So this is recent. I'm gonna have two years sober in December. - So when you talked to Rogan the first time, you're still struggling with this demon? - Yeah. I was in and out of the car basically, is what I would say, you know, I was in and out of, and then. trying to get rid of it. - That must be a super stressful experience. talking to Joe Rogan the first time.

Did you drank that night? Do you remember? - The second time I was there, I went somewhere and got shit-faced. It was stressful not for any other reason. than I felt the responsibility to the people. that couldn't speak about it. So that's the pressure. It was the start of COVID and things. started getting shut down and slowed down. My dad got really sick and almost died.

We had to set up like some Jason Bourne level shit. at my brother's place. He was in Mexico, you know, so we had to bribe a guy. to get us an oxygen tank, and I had to. jimmy rig a respirator, and it was some shit. But my dad was like, yeah, he survived it, you know. Everybody, the doctors were like, "say goodbye.".

And my dad was like, yeah, say goodbye to him, you know. (Lex laughing). - Okay, so your dad's a gangster, I got it. (laughing). Tough guy. - He did some gangster shit that day. But on my end, I was being isolated basically as COVID is, everybody's slowing down, no more classes, no more excuses to go out there and drink. and no more socializing, so social drinking. turned into alone drinking more and more and more. I bought a bottle of gin because I was.

down in Mexico taking care of my dad, and they closed down beer production in Mexico. So beer went away, and beer was a way I kind of managed it, you know, it's not hard alcohol, it's just beer, so, you know, but that went away, so it was just hard alcohol. That was what was available down there. One night alone at the house, my dad's house,

I drank a bottle of gin, a whole bottle of gin, and I almost died. And after that, you know, some people started noticing. that I was isolating more and more, and it was kind of eating away at me. I was in a relationship at that point when. I started seeing everything just kind of. fall apart around me. And I drank half of a glass of wine,

and it made me sick to my, like, internally in my mind. And my kid said to me, and I don't know, nobody coached her, nobody said anything to her. She's a pretty intuitive kid. She said, "don't drink anymore, Dad.". Outta nowhere, in the middle of the night.

And I stopped, I stopped that night. I stopped that night, I remember waking up. at three in the morning and taking a cooler. that I had and just dumping all the beers in it. and chucking them in the garbage, and with a knife, poking each of them. to not, you know, be tempted to go back for them. And then the second day I went around. and started finding the hides that I had, because I had some, you know, hides. - [Lex] Yeah.

- And then I went somewhere and locked myself in. for two weeks. I had the withdrawals. The clearest nightmares that I ever had in my life. for two, three weeks. I went somewhere, I want to keep 'em private, but I went somewhere where they offered a place for me. And when I asked them about it, it's a community.

I gave them some money for their school as a donation. I gave 'em like a few thousand dollars. Said, "yeah, sure, come," you know. "You can go through this process here.". Cool as fuck people. The first thing they did when I got there. is they stood me up in front of everybody. to thank me for the donation, and then told everybody. that I was an alcoholic and if anybody saw me drinking, I was to be kicked out of there immediately.

And I felt horrible. (laughs). So, that was where I started. - Is that temptation still there? - There was a moment when it was, and some therapy circle. There's a rodeo clown friend of mine. who, his body's, his spine is basically fused together,

you know, type of guy. We've been friends and enemies and friends again, you know, during our therapy circle sessions. - Oh, so like there's an intimacy there. - Yeah, he didn't know anything about me. One time, when we were telling our story, he stood up and told his story, and then he heard mine, and then he was pissed off at me. and didn't want to talk to me for a while. And then later he told me that it was because. he saw what I did with my experience.

and how much of a difference that he perceived. that I was making with it, and he felt jealous. that he couldn't do the same with his experience, because he was just a broken ex-rodeo clown. He told me when I was going through the process, like, "hey, you're an internet celebrity person.". You know, "you're known. Are you worried about people finding out. that you're a recovering drunk?". And I said, "yeah, it's fucking scary as shit. If people find out that I am going through this process,

it's scary that, you know, the critique.". You know, I already get a lot of shit. for being a ex-police officer in Mexico and all that, all the negativity that comes from that. And he said, "don't be," you know, that "you can't pick pocket a naked man, so just get naked.". "And what does that mean?". "Write about it. Post it online. You never know, somebody out there might get inspired, do their own kind of process.". So I started posting about it.

Cowardly in a way, because I wanted. to make other people keep me on the path, you know? But in other ways, you know, desperation, you know, I don't wanna drink anymore. I don't want to go back on that path, which I know leads directly to a bad death. I'm not afraid of death, I just want a good one, I don't want a bad one. I think that was gonna lead me to a bad death. I started writing about it and sharing it online, you know, through my fever dreams post, and just being.

humorous about it online and getting a lot of hate. on one side, you know, having a few people. and companies that I work with kind of step back. and saying this guy has some issues, to having other people kind of make fun of. or make light of that weakness portrayed. - Oh, so getting hate, getting criticism, because here you are, a counter-narcotics police officer, that now has a drinking problem. So is that like supposed to be, what, like flaws revealed.

- Weakness, or a perception of alpha in the US, I guess, that some people have, you know. - You were supposed to be strong and here you are. - Yeah, I mean, I'm not, I'm not Jocko Wilnick, I'm not David Goggins, you know. I wake up at 10 in the morning sometimes. and I'll have Corn Flakes with my eight year old, you know, I like days off. I used to wake up at 3:30 in the morning every day. to review what happened during the night. and then go off for a jog and then the gym.

and just be ready to be able to murder somebody. with my hands if I had to. But that is, I couldn't maintain that. during the whole process of getting out of it, now leaving alcohol. I remember just being honest with it. and just seeing the two sides of it. You know, Joe told me never read. the comments section, right? Which is a beautiful, it's a beautiful piece of advice. But...

They get to you sometimes when you talk about. some of these things openly, and some of the comments. were positive, and I've been seeing people comment, sending me messages and meeting people on the road. that are five months in, 10 months. Some people that have been on that wagon. for way longer than I have. And... It's what's cool when you meet people. that are superhuman or perform,

and have taken extreme ownership of things. and are just amazing people that are, you know, thriving out there. It's inspirational. I see some of these people and I'm like, holy shit, I need to figure out how to get to some semblance of that. But I'm not that, you know. I've been through the ringer. I fucked up a shit ton of times. You know, my nose is an example of that, a few missing teeth, but in a way,

I think all of that is part of the process. that not a lot of people want to talk about, you know? Independently of the experience I got down there. and some of the things that I show and talk about. and some of the advocacy I do related to women like her. that are, you know, trying to look for a better life. and trying to find their missing kids, training people to not get into those situations. But also show showcasing the fact that people. that go through some of these processes. have a journey to go through, you know.

I just came into your studio with a duffle bag. straight from the airport, and I'm gonna leave. early tomorrow morning to somewhere else. I've been on the road for almost, I think five years nonstop. I go back to a specific place every week. to see my kid for two, three days, and then I'm back out. Some people are like, are you running? It's like, are you worried? Afraid about something? No, but I am, you know, on this weird path, I guess,

trying to look for something that I think I've been missing. as far as my afterlife of a sort, you know, coming outta that-. - What do you think that is? - Are you looking for some kind of deeper understanding. of humanity, like from the specific experiences you had. to get some deeper understanding of what the hell. we're all doing here? - I meet people every weekend with different stories. You know, people come to some of my classes, and I show them how to weaponize the environment,

how to arm themselves, how to not get abducted. I meet people that have gone through those experiences. and are basically trying to work through some of. their own issues by going through the training like that. I get to meet people that are, you know, people that I've only seen online, you know, or the seen in videos. I remember meeting Royce Gracie in Harbor City. - I heard of that guy. - He's a pretty interesting character. I remember seeing him in a bootleg VHS video,

I told him about it. We were doing a class out at Emerson Knives. It's a knife company, but Mr. Emerson also has. like a jujitsu gym there where Royce trains out of, that's his space. And you know, they're teaching how to. defend against somebody trying to stab you, and I'm showing them all the ways you can get around that. and fabricate and improvise and smuggle things. Basically the adversarial side of that. Just, that's what I'm known for.

The psychology and kind of the ways that people do that. And I remember him seeing some of the stuff that I was doing. and just being like, where are you from? Mexico. Makes sense, you know, somebody from Brazil, tipping the hat to somebody from Mexico. as far as him seeing the violence. and some of the mentality behind it. - So for people who don't know, Royce Gracie is the legendary martial artist. that probably introduced Brazilian jujitsu.

to the American, to the world through the process. of UFC and showing the effectiveness of it. in practice that a little skinny guy. can defeat a big aggressive guy, so. - An anaconda, A small anaconda walking into that ring. with his family behind. - Wearing pajamas. - Wearing pajamas and everything. What is this guy wearing pajamas for? And then he would strangle people with those pajamas. I remember seeing that and just having it, I think probably what a generation before had.

with Bruce Lee, I guess. My generation was Royce walking into that octagon. and changing, you know, paradigms. Seeing him in that gym is also, I have a gun owner and shooter, which is interesting, you know, seeing somebody like him who is, you know, well versed with his hands also be. a man that has gone into the realm of. being well versed with weaponry,

which is an aspect of martial arts. and the martial way of thinking that, you know, some people kind of, the purists. will stick with one side of it, but he's obviously. a warrior in a lot of ways. - So just as a small tangent, so you're somebody that, you don't just look at unarmed combat, you look at the full spectrum of the chaos of combat. that's outside of the realm of jujitsu. and even just mixed martial arts, unarmed, armed with knives and beyond.

Was his mind open to the fuller spectrum of violence? - Yeah, I mean, he was in the middle of this class. that we were doing where people were basically. focusing on both. Ernest Emerson, who's famous for his knives, he has the knife company, he's done knives for NASA, you know, not only that, but he's also. a very avid martial artist. He trained with a lot of Filipino martial arts. related to knives and stuff like that. But a different mindset, you know, a defensive mindset to train people.

how to defend against that. And you have Royce, who's, he's from Brazil, I mean, he has some street in him. That's something that, you know, those guys. (speaking foreign language). We say in Mexico. Seeing the ways he stepped in there. and provided some encouragement to the people there. as far as, you know, how people sometimes focus on, this is a system and this is a way, but there's other ways out there that might negate. or defeat the ways that you are concentrating on, you know? So kind of get outta that bubble.

My whole kind of specialty or what I focus on. is mindset and figuring out the software. that some of these people gain and gather from. If I need to arm myself, you know, the easiest thing to manufacture in most places, a pointed object. So I can take that crystal big pen that you're. writing on that notepad with, and using the friction. from the carpet, I can turn it into. a hypodermic needle that you can then. poke into somebody's neck. - What's the process of doing that? - I can do it right now if you want.

- No, but can you use your words for the listener, and also 'cause I'm terrified? - No, I could basically, you can take the friction, the heat and friction created from this carpet. - [Lex] Yes. - You can grab that pen, in and of itself, it will pierce flesh, but it will slow itself down. because it has a few angles on the tip. - [Lex] Oh, you wanna wear down the angles. - So if you take that tip off and you grab it. and grind it on an angle on the carpet, the heat will actually turn it into a hypodermic needle. if you know what you're doing. - Hypodermic meaning like it smoothsens the entry.

- It'll make a point in an angle that will. guide its way in through your flesh. So you can actually go through a torso with that. if you know what you're doing. - As a small tangent, you also gave me a present. Could be one of the most epic presents I've ever received. You give it to Rogan. Can you explain what I'm holding in my hands? - There's a guy online, Coffin Tramp is his a moniker. It is a G10 rod.

G10 is a very strong material, basically. A lot of people make actually G10 knives, which are basically non-magnetic, non-ferrous objects that can be utilized. as a stabbing implement. The core of it isn't an actual pencil core. It's a G10 core, and it's encased in oak, hard oak. So that is capable, again, of stabbing through a torso. Now, the guy that made that is an artisan, you know, who makes that, it looks like a pencil.

It's concealed in the nature of the object itself. But that small object is capable of being introduced. into a chest cavity. You know, all it takes is about the half of your thumb. or the length of your thumb to stab into your chest cavity. and now your pericardium is pierced. and it's being full with full of blood, or your whole heart is pierced. and you have a few minutes to live, if you're at a standing heart rate. - So this has the effectiveness of a knife, essentially.

- It has an effectiveness of a shank, or an ice pick, you know. It's not gonna cut, but it's gonna make a hole. where it shouldn't be. - Here the pen is literally mightier than the sword. - [Ed] Yeah, well... - This is really epic from like a perspective. of an academic. This is a symbol of both intelligence and violence. I love it. - And also the current state of affairs.

where people need to arm themselves. with things that are concealed as far as their purpose. in a place where, in a country, or in a society. that limits their ability to arm themselves. So if you're going to a safe place, you're going to a place where no weapons allowed, which means a target-rich environment, if you're a predator, that's a sign of rebellion. - Let this be a signal of everyone should be terrified. when you're around me, because even a pencil can murder you.

I intend to use this. - "Nobody owns life, but anybody that can hold a frying pan. owns death" is a quote that I heard once, which is a beautiful one. - I'm looking at you. If anyone betrays me, this is the way to go. Can you, given all your experience. in all the different ways, and you think about. martial arts and violence, in Mexico, in the world. Speaking of hoist, what is your approach to conflict? Like a street fight? What advice would you give people in the full spectrum.

of what a street altercation might entail? What is the best way to approach it? - I think before you get there, you have to prepare. So one of the first things I tell people is, if you don't have a basic T-triple-C training class. behind you, you should reanalyze your life. and your ability to prepare. - [Lex] T-triple-C. - Basically how to stop somebody from bleeding out. or dying from a stab wound, gunshot wound, or any of those types of wounds, or an amputate leg during an IED scenario.

Anything you would see in a Boston Marathon type event. or a Vegas shooting event where people are getting shot, stabbed, cut. - So understand how to help people, how to help yourself, post-violence. - You don't want to be a detriment to the situation, you want to be an asset. So build yourself up as an asset. for in a situation like that, because you might. be doing that on yourself or on somebody else. - And also it helps you understand what situations. are going to result in a lot of,

in a difficult situation to deal with afterwards. - Yeah, it also teaches you what to stab and what to shoot. If you're thinking about it in a full, on all the dimensions of it, you know. All knowledge can be weaponized. And I think that's the approach that all people. should kind of figure out for themselves. when they start getting ready or if they want to. take the responsibility of their own safety in their hands. - So in a self-defense situation, there's a lot of questions here, but what does one stab?

- There's the carotid arteries, which are used commonly in jujitsu as something to choke. because they feed a computer, you know. - So there's a lot of blood flowing through that. required for the successful operation of the computer. - And not a lot of stuff is guarding the outside world. from your carotid arteries. - That's a really weird design, by the way. - It is not a smart one. - It doesn't even make sense, because with mammals, they bite each other's neck. Like, why can't you have more protection?

Because this is the only, like us humans. don't use their mouth to just kill each other, but most mammals, most predators do. And it's like, why the hell don't we protect this? - We do have a defensive mechanism, and you see it sometimes when people are ambushed. and people try to open up each other's necks from behind. If you push somebody's neck forward, the carotids will actually lower themselves. and be encased in more flesh and muscle. If you pull the head back, not so much. So that's a way that at least I think the evolutionary,

we have a defensive mechanism for that. There's a few videos out there of people's. getting their next sewn back shut. after somebody pushed their head forward. to try and slice their necks and they survived. So this is a viable target. The heart is another one. Interesting the thing about the heart, and people get alarmed when I talk about this. and show it in classes. Again, a lot of the classes I do are for orientation. and for people to recognize that behavior.

So a lot of law enforcement comes to some of these classes. Oh, that's horrible. That's how somebody will kill somebody. Yeah, this is how people that know their shit. will try and approach somebody and stab you to death. This is how they would do it. There's a tendency to view what we see in John Wick. or view what we see in this martial arts community. where they're, you know, slicing and dicing people, different myriads of ways. A lot of that is based on dueling based cultures,

like the Filipino martial arts. or some of the Italian martial arts out there. where somebody's facing off with somebody else. with a similar weapon, and where both of us are agreeing. to basically get into a stabbing competition. That would make sense in that scenario, in that context, but I've never seen a lot of people actually. get into these one-on-one knife altercations. What we see now in a modern context. when it talks about weaponry is an ambush, counter-ambush based scenario where somebody. pulls out a knife turning a grappling situation.

on the street, or when somebody turns a striking. exchange of punches into pulling out. a cheap gas station knife or a pen. or a rock from the ground, or a handgun. Most modern combatives, when it comes to weaponry, should be kind of based on the whole aspect. of ambush and counter-ambush. There's a lot of people showing valuable type of material. and coursework on this out there. My whole approach and my specific kind of realm.

is in the aspect of how people go from the process. of learning some of these things from experiential stuff. People that grow up in rural places, grow up on pig farms, that actually get the experiences of processing the pig, for example, or processing an animal. Those people will have more skills. Hunters, those people will have more skills. with a knife if they pick it up as a weapon. than most of the martial artists that I've seen. kind of approach some of these classes. where I go and have a simulated torso.

in the form of a pig hanging in a room somewhere. - Some of that has to do with just. the familiarity and the comfort of just like. the biology of a living organism. Like that if you cut off certain things, if you cut a certain thing, like it's just a meat vehicle. - The same thing, you know, medical training. should come first, you know. Or if you don't have that, be a hunter, or go to a butchery class, that will teach you. more about how to use a knife on somebody else. than anything, you know. That'll give you the experience of flesh.

Most people, you know, I do this example. every now and then where I have people bring in. a tactical knife and they'll bring in a butter knife, and I ask them which will go through a torso. We have a pig there, so it simulates a torso pretty closely. Most people will say, nah, that butter knife's. not gonna go through. And it does, you know, it does go through. It's thin enough, strong enough, sturdy enough that it'll go through. Kitchen knife, a cheap one that cost 89 cents.

at a Walmart and a expensive $400 one, you know, and the cheap one will outperform the expensive one. The tip will snap off during some of it. - Yeah,. I have to say that just as a small tangent, I went to a farm, and just seeing the butchering of meat. and so on, and the processing of meat and pigs and cows, whew, that's uncomfortable. - Yeah. - But I think it also, it's honest and raw.

and like that's something that probably. everyone should experience regularly. 'Cause it's also humbling to remind you, like when I had a dog, Homer, he's a Newfoundland, that I was very close with, and we lost him, and I just remember that I carried him, he's like 200-something pounds, so I had to carry him. and I had to put him to sleep. And like, one of the biggest realizations is like,

oh, this is just a biological thing. - [Ed] Yeah. - It's just, and then to realize that this is just meat, this is not, and you can cut it, and then if you bleed, all of a sudden the life can disappear from you, and it's all gone, and it's like, holy shit, there's this meat vehicle that some people. have referred to as Lex. I'm just a few stabbings away from like-. - Leaving. - Yeah. From leaving, goodbye. A soul that just flies. - It used to be that we had to hang around, you know,

people would come back from battle and we would. hear things next to the campfire as far as, oh, you stab somebody here and this happens. But now we live in an age where you can, you know, when I do a class, this is a stab to the heart, and here's like five videos of it happening live, you know, on Live Leaks or whatever. And we can deconstruct that. Not only that, but what weapon was used? Oh, it was a gas station folder. It was a pioneer woman knife from Walmart. with flowers on the handle, you know, whatever it was.

And people start realizing that it doesn't take a lot, that it doesn't take a lot of training, 'cause a lot of these people are not high level assassins. trained by ninjas in the hills or anything like that. They're people that, you know, grew up rurally. or learned by seeing that behavior in others. And when they start coming to the realization. that it's pretty easy to do that. and they start figuring out like, how do you counteract that? Well, number one, learn the behavior yourself. so you can recognize it. The whole aspect of being a good counter-ambush team. is to be the best ambusher on the planet.

So again, the whole aspect of Musashi saying. "know your enemy, know his sword," you know, you figure that out as far as learning that behavior. You know, when you start seeing. how some of these stabbings occur, the first thing you notice is that. one of the hands is always kind of out of the picture. or there's a lack of symmetry in the people. that are about to do something horrible. So when you see lack of symmetry in the environment, somebody with their hands going backwards, there's a crowd of people and two or one individual.

is looking counter where everybody else is looking, or there's a hyper-aware individual in a crowd, the hyper-aware are always usually. out there to fuck somebody over. or are there trying to keep those predators. from fucking somebody else over. So unless you step back and you put yourself. in the process with learning how they learn, and you become that potential nightmare person,

it's hard to recognize that in a crowd. - It feels like one of the significant ways to win. as a street fighter is to avoid it. by sort of sending pacifist signals in every way. Meaning avoiding the situation whenever there's like, a hypervigilant people, you just kind of. avoid signaling that you're one of the players. of interest. - Yeah. - If we're talking about counter-ambush, at which point do you do that versus. shift to the aggression?

- Yeah, I think violence should be always an option. You know, everybody should have that option, and you need to be good at that option. I think I heard Jordan Peterson talk about. the fact that everybody needs to be dangerous, but keep shit under control, you know? - Yeah. I think he was referring to a different context, but... - I know. I know. I'm referring to the ability of-. - The little physical conflict as well. - There's two cases that I saw of people. just utilizing social engineering to a beautiful degree.

to deescalate shit. One guy somewhere, first off, if you're in a place. where people are grabbing your wife's ass. or something like that, like what are you doing there? You know, there's a load of things. that are wrong with everything that you're doing. in your life to be in that environment. But yeah, let's say you're in an inescapable situation. There was this guy who was in a compromised position, somebody wanted to fight him, like legit kick his ass, and he said, "okay, let's go, but I just,

I need to warn you that I have hep C before we go outside.". And that- - That's masterful. - I was getting my phone out to film this, you know, maybe, and even I was just, lowered my phone. to give him a slow clap. That was a beautiful move, you know? And then there was this other man. There was a riot somewhere in Encinada, the, the municipality of Encinada in Baja. They were protesting, some of the people. that pick those fields down there.

Part of a tribe called (indistinct). Very hardy, hardworking people, but nefarious people too. They're pretty good at their thing. There was a riot line they couldn't break, and this old man walks in the middle of the riot line. and yells, "grenade!". And throws an avocado in the middle of all the cops. And like, he broke that riot line with an avocado. (Lex laughs). - That could have gone wrong in so many ways. - But it didn't.

I don't know, to me, there's small lessons there. There is a case to be made about social engineering, about learning about behavior, about learning how to lie and how to kind of. move your way or navigate your way. around situations like that. Small things like bartering, knowing how to bribe people. in conflict zones is a thing that I show. when I talk about or train people. to work in hostile environments, deescalation, you know, specifically kind of figuring out. what is of value in the environment,

what things you shouldn't be doing in an environment. that might be considered disrespectful or out of place. People have a tendency that didn't grow up in places. that are violent to make continuous eye contact. with somebody that might be an issue. Or smiling when there's nothing to smile about. I think, you know, there's a picture I saw somewhere. of Russians taking a portrait, and there's Americans there and the Americans are smiling, but the Russians aren't. Because what is there to smile about? Which is true.

- And of course, it's not as simple as smile or not smile, there's subtlety to it, like you said. Eye contact is a super interesting one. 'cause I've found in my own life, like not making eye contact is, people would be joking, but it's a really powerful way to deescalate. And there's such a fascinating thing, though, 'cause you could talk about drunk fights. that are just, that are harmless, but I feel like the same dynamic applies. to the most violent conflict, including wars. I feel like ego is part of this.

So to me the question of conflict, whether it's a street fight or anything else, is the calculus of are you willing to take an L? - [Ed] Yeah. - In terms of psychology. Somebody grabs your wife's ass, you mentioned, boy, if you let that happen, you go home, you're gonna have to pay the price. of you were the person who didn't defend you. Like in your relationship. You didn't defend your wife's honor.

- [Ed] Yeah. - You're gonna psychologically pay that price yourself, and, depending on your wife, she might secretly. also lose a little bit of respect for you. - Yeah. - Now, how do you play that calculus? 'Cause now we see the war in Ukraine. I would say there is elements of similar posturing. in the United States, in Europe, in Ukraine, Russia, China, leadership- - At a macro level. - At a macro, at a geopolitics,

it's still somebody grabs somebody's ass, and you're not backing down. - So to take those losses and basically. just posture, you know, lower your head. and live to fight another day type situation. The thing with modern violence is, you know, the access to weaponry, you know, and I mean, again, nobody owns life, but anybody who can. hold a frying pan can own death. I've seen people, you know, get double leg take down. somebody on the ground. It's a different thing doing it in the mats versus concrete. That's a good way to kill somebody, you know.

The most prolific impact weapon on the planet. is the planet itself. You can see various videos of people online. where they fall and they hit their head. or somebody hits their head and they go into, you know, this stretched out fit, basically. And that might not kill you then, but it'll kill you that night or the second night. if you don't get checked out, you know, people bleed out internally, get an edema. Again, the whole aspect of me showing. how some of these things, not only. some of these methodologies and how people prepare.

for violence and how people experience violence, how they make their weapons, how the people fight. in the streets and stuff like that, is to recognize that behavior from the inception. There's a video I show where there's a bunch of street kids. in Rio de Janeiro, I think it's during the Olympics, where they're snatching chains and cell phones from people. And it's a fun video, you know, see it, and it's the first thing you learn about it. is how they target people. Now, who are they going after? There's a bunch of people there.

Why are they going after that specific person? And they start learning about profiling. and how they identify victim mentality, you know, or the perfect victim, you know. Lack of awareness, they keep on a straight line, avoidance of eye contact, if they're, you know, doing something nefarious or wrong, and how they pick who they're gonna go after. You know, the small people, the the women, you know, even some of the men, and they separate the men that they're perfect victims. versus the men that's gonna turn around.

and punch 'em in the face. What are they looking for? Well first off, you know, you notice that the men. that are in that environment that look at them. and are aware of their presence, the hyper-aware, are the ones that are not good to target. So that's the first lesson there. So it's probably a good idea not only to be hyper-aware, but to recognize that hyper-awareness in others, if I wanna separate myself from the victim crowd. Another thing you notice is these are kids. going after some grown adults, and some of these. grown adult men are with women.

And you see them, you know, kind of getting. outside of the grasp of these kids. that are trying to rip their chains off their neck. or their cell phones, and they have no consideration. for the women around them. You see other men that are with women. and you see them grab the women and put them behind them, and immediately they'll say this, this is the wrong one, let me move off to the next one. So that small little lesson in those videos. will show you first how these kids are growing up.

to profile and target who the perfect victims are. That's a school for them, and that is an adversarial school. We should look at that school and apply it to ourselves. - So in general, you think conflict, ultimately, the people that are doing conflict are looking for weakness? - I mean, they're looking for opportunity, you know, opportunistic. That's the predators, that's what they do. They look for an opportunity, you know, from jumping down from a tree and getting. the slowest gazelle to looking for the opportune moment.

to pounce on something that's probably big, but the risk is worth it. - I feel like there's several motivations, but isn't there also power hierarchy motivation as well? Like there's something about the big guy. that tempts you to send a message, especially with gangs. Aren't they constantly sort of trying to signal. that they're the alpha? - Yeah, I mean, there's a different situation. You could be facing a sociopathic predator.

who is looking for something in you. that you were the resource that they're looking after. Maybe it's a woman, you know. It could be a group of people that don't like the fact. that you have a specific nationality, or your passport is stamped in a specific way, or that you pray to whatever god. All these factor in. But in the end, they all do the same thing. They look for an advantageous position. If I were to target you, I would put you. in between that wall and, you know, me,

so you have two avenues of exits, and I would step on one of your feet. to keep that avenue closed, so you have to go this way. So this is where my knife is gonna be. And you see that behavior mirrored everywhere in the world. First off, you look for advantages, right? If it's something that's unavoidable, like you're in between me and my ability to go home, or you're in between me and my ability to feed my family, or you're in between me and my ability. to posture to the people that are behind me, the young guys, that I'm in charge,

I will do everything in my power to end you, right? The motivations are not my realm, but the ways they do it are, you know, and the basically the advantage part of it. - So desperation is dangerous. - It's a dangerous school. When I say dangerous school, I mean. the most dangerous people usually come from. those desperate environments. You can have people in Coronado holding onto logs.

in the ocean and going through this. millions of dollars worth of training. and just be professional as killers for the government. and just be these incredible human beings. And then there's a kid that will walk up to one of them. when he's off, you know, and put an icepick. right into his chest when he's least expecting it. And that doesn't mean that one is superior than the other. It just means that there's more than one way. to become that, you know.

- Teenagers terrify me. It feels like the intensity of desperation, like the capacity of a teenager, like 16, 17, to be desperate and also not have the matured understanding. of ethics of the world. Like they have this intensity of feeling. that is unlike anything else. - They don't have a volume knob to that. - [Lex] Yeah. So it's like a garden hose without an nozzle on it. so you can regulate it, they haven't developed that.

They haven't learned that maybe from somebody else, or it used to be warrior cultures, you would apprentice under somebody or you would. learn some of these things from other people. Even some modern gangs have a little bit of that. But if you're not, and you're just this kid. that's been playing "Call of Duty" all of his life. or that has been witnessing violence in media. and there's no sense of, it's probably a bad idea. to go off and do this, because all of these repercussions, I could see how that could be a danger to society,

and some of the volume knobs, some of the countermeasures. to people exploding on somebody else with a weapon, you know, you see videos constantly online. I remember seeing this one of these two teenage girls. somewhere in the US, and one of them just, there's a fight, there's a hair pulling competition, and all of a sudden one of them takes out a knife, and it just happens like that, and it's just pure unrestrained downward stabbing.

You're like, wait, where does that come from? Well, she's from an environment. where she saw that as an option. She didn't see the repercussions of it, and she found herself in a place where she thought. that was the only viable option, pulling out a weapon. And I think that's the dangerous part of it. - So how do you prepare to win those kinds of situations, to escape those kinds of situations?

Like you said, this training, it's exposing your mind. - I always tell people like, if you don't have. a combative base, you don't have a base. Boxing, jujitsu. - And that gives you what, like an awareness. of your body kind of thing? - It gives you an awareness of your body, give you a spatial awareness. If you can't see the points with your peripheral vision, if you can't see the points of somebody's feet. in your peripheral vision, they are in range. to stab you in the heart if they wanted to.

And that's something you learn from boxing, that you learn from jujitsu, you learn from. a bunch of combat arts where you learn about. distance and angling people. That comes from this experience that you have. You know, again, a lot of these things were just. horseplay when we were growing up in some cultures, or you know, rough and tumble with your brothers. and shit like that, but some of us are growing up. in single kid homes now, and we don't get that, we're missing that. And if you don't have it, then you find it in a jujitsu gym, you find it in a boxing gym, you find it.

in a Thai boxing gym. You find it in places where they specialize. in focusing on certain aspects of this whole. combative whole, right? It used to be, before UFC, you know, the kung fu man, you know, that kung fu guy, that's street lethal shit. You can't use it in the sporting, you can't show you this because it'll kill you. Now we pretty much know that most of that was, you know, flights of fancy or BS. You know, it pains me too, man. I wanted to learn some of the D-mock single punch you.

and kill you technique, you know, I remember those books, but that's just not-. - [Lex] I'm still on the lookout for that. - Yeah, maybe somewhere, I don't know, you know, maybe if you put a pen in your hand, that might turn into that, but that's the only way. That's the only way, right? But a lot of these myths are kind of like faded away. Now you see people that have different combative bases. combining them all and becoming a fighter. Now, that's UFC fight, two people. fighting each other's one thing, you know, you being in the middle of the Portland riots.

and a bunch of state troopers throwing gas at rioters. and then rioters themselves fighting each other, and you finding yourself in the middle of that, that's a completely different thing. And if you think you're gonna, you know, go on the ground and get in a guard with a guy. swinging around a shovel, a piece of shovel handle, right? As tear gas is going on, because you got stopped there. and your car was, you know, windows were broken. and your family's in the backseat, you know, that is a different situation.

So, you know, getting medical, learning about weaponry. I personally don't really like fighting on the ground, but that's why I forced myself to go. to train with different people out there, you know, on the ground, jujitsu, catch wrestling. - So top and bottom, neither, you don't like either. - Personally, I like being in a car. and running everybody over, that would be great, if I could, or driving really far away, or I had this experience in Utah, some friends of mine,

military, some of your best shooters, some of the best shooters in the US, you know, coming from the Marine Corps, were showing me how they. would shoot something from really far away. And I was like, oh, you don't even have to. be in the same vicinity. The scope of violence and how far you can be from it. or how close you can be from it. - Just wait till we get to see what we can do.

in the cyber attack world. We can destroy your whole wellbeing, your whole life, your identity. - That's another aspect of it too. - Financial, and then figure out where you live, in terms of ambush. - Yeah. - Figuring out everything about you. such that hurting you is easy. - I have a class where we specifically work on. social engineering and kind of. how you can go about something that, you know, at a micro level.

I do a class with a guy named Matt Fiddler. who does, basically, he's one of the premier experts. on how to get into and bypass locks, basically. He'll show you how to open up every single, or bypass every single commercial lock. available in the United States. Like he'll spread it out and open up everything. And that's like, right? And my part in his class is I talk about. how you can pull some of that off in a public space. and not get caught, or how you would.

employ some of these things in a context. where it's like useful for law enforcement, for the military, stuff like that. And so we have this exercise in a public space. where there's a bunch of padlocks in the environment, right? And we paint them pink so people know it's our padlocks. and we're not breaking into anybody else's padlocks. if we get approached and asked about it. But I asked the students like, so you have to. gather all these padlocks from this public space, you know, so how would you do it?

So a lot of them are trying to pick 'em, you know, they're like very suspiciously picking them. and stuff like that, that you get caught, and it's a whole situation. But the smart ones will basically develop. a social media campaign related to the box, right? A beautiful example of this, and this actually. happened here in Texas. I did a class out in Dallas. We put the padlocks all over this public mall, and the students basically came up. with a breast cancer awareness campaign online.

that they made fake, well, they made flyers for it, they did the social media page on it, campaign. They did this email chain. So when they went there, people were expecting them. So they normalized the behavior through social media. and they were walking around with bolt cutters. in the middle of a mall cutting these things off. That's a beautiful solution to a complex problem. of that nature. And again, the weaponizing part of it, anything could be, all knowledge could be weaponized.

And if you focus on getting in a street fight. with somebody with your fist or a knife, you know, you're missing out in the whole complexity of violence. in the way that it's now being utilized. - So in terms of breaking out locks. and restraints and captivity, let's talk about. a dark topic that you're one of the world experts in, kidnapping. So you teach courses on counter-kidnapping and terrorism. I read an estimate that criminal gains. get $500 million a year in ransom payments from kidnapping.

So just at a high level, what is kidnapping, who does it, and why? What are some insights that can help us understand. what is this problem in the world? - It happens in different ways. in different parts of the world. I mean, I just sent off a group of people. that trained some of the Ukrainians, and some of the stuff that they were showing them. was some of the counter-custody stuff that I showed 'em. Friend of mine named Vince went out there, was showing them some of the aspects.

of how to utilize things like Kevlar cordage. and how to infuse it in their uniform. so if they get ziptied to cut them open. It's a war setting, so talks about being captive. in a war zone, but the information. or the methodology actually comes from Mexico. That methodology, as far as how I learned it. - In terms of how to escape from restraints. and stuff like that. - Yeah. So in Mexico you have abductions happening. where cartels who hold control over a specific place. or zone are having a hard time with financial situations.

as far as maybe they're not making enough money. to pay everybody off, so they let them freelance, basically, in a lot of ways, some of these criminal groups freelance. or some of these groups actually professionalize in, to abduct businessmen, abduct the sons of businessmen. or people that have money to ask for ransoms for them, basically. And they've taken, you know, captivity and abduction. to like an art form in places like Mexico,

and it has a history all over the world, but specifically my experience with it. was going to cartel safe houses that turned into. holding places, you would see, you know, homemade prison cells and stuff like that, and people being held in captivity for months, if not years, as they were milking their family. for everything they owned. - So it turns into a business, they're not actually. even interested in hurting the people. - No. - Physically, they're interested. in hurting them financially.

- Financially, and also if they get hurt, they're hurt for a purpose, which is. to make their family pay up faster or more. Some of the abduction groups that I've seen out there, professional ones in Mexico, basically make it. a living to target people that have. abduction insurance or that work for companies. that have good abduction insurance, so it's almost like. an ATM for them, you know, it's like, ah, you again, huh? So there are some of that going on. Some, not so much. Some abductions are express. I mean, I'll grab you in gunpoint, take you to an ATM,

you empty it out, and then you're on your way. That's an express kidnapping, that might not be. worth you doing anything insane, you know, you just go with the motions. But some people do get picked up, you know. I have trained people with prior experiences. of abductions in Mexico and here in the United States, people that have spent some time in captivity. with loved ones here, like ex-boyfriends or boyfriends. that tie them up and beat the shit out of them. And the restraints they utilize are zip ties and handcuffs,

sometimes, or duct tape, or their own clothing, things of this nature. Basically what somebody's looking for. when they tie anybody up is to convince you. that they are in control, that they are God, and that any hope of you releasing those restraints. or getting out of that situation is hopeless. From a cartel group picking you up. in the middle of a dirt road somewhere in Cancun. to a ex-boyfriend showing up at your house. and tying you up till you agree to get back with him.

That's the same thing. And some of the restraints that are being utilized. come from different places. I mean, I remember an instructor I had. way back when told me that the proliferation. of zip ties as a restraint in criminal abductions. came up after the movie "Heat" came out, because everybody wanted to be Robert DeNiro. zip tying people in the bank robbery. at the end of the movie. Criminals saw that and it became like a thing. - It's hilarious. Can you actually speak to the, is it possible to systematically learn. how to escape restraints like handcuffs, rope, zip ties?

- The best at it are not the military, they're not SEAL program people. They are criminals. I learned how to get outta handcuffs from a 15 year old. who was in charge of meth sales in (indistinct), Tijuana. - Is there a system to it? - I mean, it's not specifically a system, it's, usually what happens is they'll buy a set of handcuffs. and they will mess around with them in a playing feature. So, one thing I do in a class is, first off, I'm honest about the fact that some, you know,

all restraints are temporary, even marriage. - This is, wait, can we just pause. on the deep philosophical. You're like Miyamoto Musashi with that statement. - All restraints are temporary, even marriage. I just like adding that one in there for last, because this is a dark subject. - Every cage can be escaped. - All restraints are temporary. You either free yourselves from the restraints, somebody else takes 'em off, or you die. and your body rots away around them. Those are the options.

And I like that first option myself. The second option is pretty cool if you can. convince somebody to do that for you. But that first option is an interesting one. You have to deconstruct restraints. Not all restraints are made the same. You can train to get outta handcuffs here in the US. and you know, focus on a pair of Smith and Weston handcuffs, which are kind of the most common brand of handcuffs here. But if you find yourself in detention somewhere in Russia, the handcuffs out there are completely different. You know, the key way is different, the mechanism is different, but some of the same.

ways of bypassing those mechanisms are-. - I'm gonna write this down. So in Russia, what kind are they using? Thinking of traveling there, I need this information. - I'll send you a specific model and details. on how to get out of those. But basically-. - Asking for a friend, I'm sorry. - So what I do is I take pair of Smith and Wesson handcuffs, I put them in the middle of three people in a class, I spread them out, and I have them place them on each other. in a just playing manner. I have handcuffed keys there and I have. a pair of bolt cutters there in case somebody gets stuck,

does something stupid. So they play with each other as far as. putting them on randomly, I show 'em. how to put 'em on appropriately, and then I show them a handcuff key, and a handcuff key will open up handcuffs, interestingly enough. But the thing about a handcuff key is it's not made. to be used by the person that is in those handcuffs. So that's the first lesson there. If you have a handcuff key, handcuff keys. are the most used tool to open up handcuffs. in custody situations, you know. Both criminals escaping from the police.

to people escaping from criminals. Just a standard hidden handcuff key. So I show them how to modify the handcuff key. so it's more optimal to use on yourself. with just basic garbage that you can find. Piece of wire, a zip tie piece. Basically how to put a leverage arm on the handcuff key. so you can actually spin it in the keyway. behind your back or in front of you. - I'm trying to think. I don't think I've ever been in handcuffs. - Appropriate way to handcuff somebody is palms out. - How much restriction is there in terms of-.

- There's a lot, if it's is a hinge handcuffs, there's a lot of restriction, with no change in the-. - Can you reach back? - You could try and reach back or you can. basically put yourself in a non-compromised position. and feed the most of your palm meat into the handcuff way. so when they shut it on you, you have. more space to work with. So you can spin your hand. We call it passive resistance. Again, you go through a process with them. where you deconstruct how people are handcuffed,

handcuffed keys and how to modify a handcuff key. to be able to use it on yourself, and all of these things, they're constructing as we go. So they basically, hey, what's a grinding surface? Well, there's concrete outside. So they grind an angle on the key. so you can get a key not to go straight into the keyway, but you can get it into the keyway. at an angle, for example. It's something that is out there as far as a method. You can't spin a key behind your back because it's small. It's designed to be used by somebody else. opening those handcuffs on you. So you put an arm on it so you can leverage your arm.

so you can spin it behind your back. You learn how to put yourself in not a compromised position. if somebody asks you for your hands so they could be cuffed, you don't do this, you know, you do that, or you put yourself in a cable grip behind your back, which is a pretty strong grip, and it's hard. to spread those hands apart. It's also something that people go into. automatically when they're in fear. So all of these things are advantageous for you. And you learn how not only people get restrained,

but you see videos of them, 'cause I show. a bunch of abduction that's actually happening live. Again, the best thing is avoidance, but specifically when you work around restraints. is number one, learn how some of these restraints work. Number two is learning how some of the ready-made tools. to get outta the restraints look like function. And number three, which is the advanced level, is learn how to construct all of these things yourself. Which is, I think that is best thing you can show somebody.

For handcuffs, I just use a standard pair of handcuffs. and then we deconstruct other very specialized handcuffs. that might be out there. And you show them, if you're gonna travel somewhere, learn what restraints are commonly available. in the environment. Somebody going to North Sub-Saharan Africa. carrying a plastic handcuff key is, that's gonna be useless out there, because there's not gonna be standard handcuffs out there. that would be opened with that type of key. Out there, you're probably gonna be tied up.

with a chain and a padlock of some sort, maybe a 40 millimeter Chinese padlock. with a plastic core that you can open with a lighter. if you can burn the core, melt the core open. Or if you can leverage that open, that's a pretty easy thing to open. Or a bobby pin, you could reach all the way. in the back and open the latch. - What about rope? Is that common? - Yeah, it is common. This is one of my favorite things for rope. It's something I usually carry in some places. It's another gift for you if you want.

It's a ceramic razor blade. - Nice. - [Ed] Is it capable of cutting? - [Lex] Nice. - Small, you can put it behind a label. I've seen some students put the Levi's label on there. and just sew it back on. It is non-magnetic, non ferrous, so in and out of, you know, that type of situation, you can get in it. and it's something you can have with you everywhere. This is a pretty fancy one, or you can just grab. a simple razor blade, and actually learning how to use.

or leverage a razor blade between your palms. and know how to go up and down with it. to be able to cut yourself outta rope. - And of course, so that's just practice to do that well. - It's practice and it's also exposure to just, this is a possibility, this is how you could hide it. Again, the whole smuggling aspect comes from. a criminal mindset type setting. So how things are hidden, where they're hidden. And when I talk about concealing objects of this nature, it's usually comes from smuggling, you know,

the fact that I have something in a notebook. comes from heroin smuggling. If you're not looking at the school of criminality, you're missing out on a big part of the equation. - So for people who want to learn about this, do you teach courses on this? Do you know what... How do you get in touch with you or learn from you? Do you have stuff online or is it only in person? - So I have some stuff on my Patreon specifically. I have a Patreon where I share a lot of the online material, like basically a bunch of, this is my notebook.

I have a bunch of stuff that, I just met somebody. in Philadelphia that showed me a pretty unique way. of utilizing a box cutter as a weapon. So I wrote some of that down and filmed some of it. And it's not for any other reason, I'm not trying to create dangerous people out there. It's like, hey, look at this, this is something. that's out there, right? So a lot of that information, some of those notes. and stuff like that, I keep on my Patreon. I used to share it openly on Facebook and Instagram, but that has not been possible anymore.

- Well, I'm a member of your Patreon. and I recommend people sign up. It's really great 'cause you also have philosophy. You're the Mexican Miyamoto Musashi. So it's not just these skills, it's also. the philosophy around it. - Like I got that book of five rings. before I went into training. Like I took that with me through training. The whole aspect of, you know, go to places. frightening to the common brand of men, you know, be put in jail and extricate yourself with your own wisdom.

I think he was speaking about experience, you know, the whole warrior's journey, the hero's journey of going out there and actually risking. I think that's a pretty big basis and aspect. of what the work I do in showing some of these things. There's a tendency to people to say, "hey, I'm afraid to go to Mexico. What do I need to know?". Like, well, if you're afraid to go to Mexico, don't go to Mexico. I mean, I was in Detroit, I was pretty afraid. when I was in Detroit, in some parts of Detroit, and the south side Chicago.

But I don't wanna be dictated where I can go. and where I can't go because of safety. I want to take responsibility for that myself. and figure out ways of being more capable. and an asset to the people around me and myself. And that comes from experience. And people don't want to risk getting a shoulder injury. rolling a jujitsu or don't want to risk. getting a bloody nose in boxing, but that is the way. - Well, there's some aspect to fitting in. You quote Hattori Hanzo on imitation.

"The most important thing you should keep in mind. when you go on a Shinobi mission. is to imitate well the language of the target province. and the ways that the local people. This includes their appearances, the way of wearing clothes, the way of shaving their head, the way of. making up their hair, the way of making up a sword. or short sword, and the way of refinement and luxury.". So how do you fit into some of those places? So you know, Mexico, but a person like me. that doesn't know anything about Mexico,

and say I'm interviewing somebody. in a leadership position at a drug cartel. - Yeah. - How quickly do you learn how to fit in? - I mean, it's not about fitting in, it's about coming up with a narrative for yourself. What that book is talking, that's a quote. from the book called (indistinct), which is like an actual legit ninja manual. from like the 1500s or something like that. And they're not talking about blending in, they're talking about creating a narrative or a lie. through your appearance and your behavior.

and your knowledge base. That's what they're talking about. So I would say first, if you're going to go. to a place like that, first off, learn what is common there. What type of common restraints might be placed on you, what criminal groups work out there, what type of guns they have. Not only what type of guns they have, but go to the gun range in Vegas and learn. how to fire some of these firearms yourself. so you know how to load them in case you run into. a bad situation. How they tie the sword, you know, how they. wear their short swords, could equate to how, you know, if you run into some issues, also it would give you.

a good idea how many rounds those hold. so you can run at the right moment. - I like how you focus in on the tools of violence, but there's also the social engineering deescalation, right? - Yeah, so if you are in an environment like that. and you are carrying around a camera, that might be an issue. - Or the opposite, might not be an issue. - Well, if you're asked like, who are you with, I'm with the news organization, or am I with. a Christian aid group here? - Yeah. - And if you are with a Christian aid group, it's probably a good idea to learn some of the Bible, right?

If you want a quick way of having a somebody out there. try and stop talking to you, you can just start talking. about Jesus in the middle of a, you know, a little cartel territory when they approach you. and take out the Bible, that will quickly deescalate. - What usually prefer to do is I find somebody. from "The New York Times" and "The Wall Street Journal". and beat them up in front of the, just to send a signal that I'm not a journalist, and I too don't like journalists. - [Ed] That could be a way. But... - To send a message. - I think a lot of us miss the fact. that we are capable of taking control of our own narrative.

and what we communicate to people around us. I can show up here drinking a Monster energy drink, dumping it on the ground, scratching you know what, just sit down and just be a rude motherfucker. That's not who I am, but I can do that, and you will believe me if I am good at it. Some of us don't know this aspect. because it's something we consider predatory. or something that is wrong or negative or bad. And some of these aspects are actually, you know, they're pretty useful. I learned most of my trade craft and skill craft.

from panhandlers and street performers, and when I had some training related to social engineering, those were the people that I learned from. I remember we were doing surveillance. and there was a guy there that showed us. how to do surveillance, you know, on the street, and he said, "if you can find a way. for somebody to smell you before they see you, you'll become invisible.". And I was like, that's bullshit. "If you can find a way of somebody smelling you. before they see you, you become invisible.".

I didn't understand what that meant. So we went on a three-day bender, didn't take a shower, smelled like shit, no deodorant. You know, you smell like a homeless person, you look like a homeless person, and you approach somebody. asking for the time and they smell you before they see you, and you are not there, you're not a human, you don't exist. So that was a pretty valuable lesson that I got there. - Yeah, so that's interesting. But like, I have this belief, it has to do with. the way I operate in this world, I suppose, but if you come off as a person, legitimately,

I guess you could fake it, but I think. it just feels like you can be extremely good, possibly the best in the world, if you practice it your whole life at being you. At showing like you have nothing to hide, and-. - A true believer, a true believer. - So like, yes, you can come up with a fake narrative, but then what I mean is like, live that narrative. your whole life then.

- [Ed] Yeah, I understand. - And then never falter from that. Like, you are this person. That's what I'm trying to, have nothing to hide. - I consider that a true believer and yeah, that is a unique person when you meet them, and they are out there, there are people. that will fucking walk into places. This is who I am, I don't give a fuck. This is who I am, if you don't trust me, well, shoot me. Fuck it. This is my honesty and if you don't trust me, well, look at all these people that I've interacted with. in the past, and you can ask them about it,

or you can see my effects on other people. That's gonna be my presentation card. - The way you said it now is using words and is blunt, usually if somebody's blunt like that, like I'm a no bullshit person, that means they're not. That means they're full of shit, actually. - But you do that through, I mean, I'm verbalizing your behavior. You know, just walking somewhere, let's say you're going to interview. somebody very dangerous down there, and you walk into a room without worry.

That is a presentation to you. You know, that's a pretty interesting introduction. You know, you're not a threat because. you don't consider yourself a threat. and you're walking in there with the confidence. that you don't consider yourself a threat. Which is an interesting way of going about it. My life experiences has been different. I wasn't programmed that way from an early age, and it's hard for me to go into that line. Although more and more as I get older. and as I learn more about the world.

and I've failed a few more times, I can understand or more cognizant of the fact. that you don't really have to try that much. if you believe in your and who you are, if you know yourself. I think that is at the core of it. If you know yourself enough to be able to kind of. communicate that to people around you. - And you're not hiding from yourself. or from the world your flaws, too. That was the other thing you spoke to.

that is probably inspiring to others, is being honest about your flaws, about your weaknesses as a human being. - You can't pickpocket a naked man. If you know how to be naked, and again, I'm not there. I think I'm working towards that just by, you know, openly going through and showing people, not telling them. Show me, don't tell me is another valuable lesson. that I got long ago. I travel across the country and I not only.

get to show people what I know how to do, but I give examples of it through. things that I do out there. And I say this a lot, you know, when I travel out there, I'm never alone, you know, there's couches out there. waiting for me, you know, there's homes that I can. go and stay at, and friends that I have out there. that I have never even met. But that's been about me not only wearing. some of those mistakes and past failures on my sleeve, but also turning them into lessons for people,

and just telling people the fact that, you know, I know how to do all this weird stuff, you know, and I show people how to do it, yeah. But here's a bunch of weird memes that are very humorous. about my culture and about going through therapy, and this is me doing something goofy, and this is me being an idiot in front of. all you guys as well. You know, this is me being the fool. I think that's another aspect of it. - I love that as part of that journey, you made enemies with the rodeo clown. and meet up with him afterwards. - Oh, we're still this close.

We're in a very toxic relationship. He knows who he is, he's probably out there listening. - [Lex] Love and hate, all there. - We stopp talking to each other for months. and then, you know, just send a dick message. of some sort and just, you know, we're back at it, you know. - Back, yeah. Love expressed through anger. I love it. It's therapeutic. You have both very interesting career paths. If we can just jump back to, in a really interesting topic. that I wanted to mention on narco occultism. What are narco cults?

What's the relationship between, you kind of mentioned religion a little bit? - [Ed] Yeah. - What's the relationship between. religious culture and drug culture? - First off, Mexico is one of the most. Catholic countries on the planet, if not the most Catholic country on the planet. Not only that, it is a country that has a root. in a spirituality through its ethnic culture. that, you know, other parts of the world. got most of that taken away and/or. suppressed or killed or taken away.

When the Spanish came to Mexico, they were a product of a recently liberated group of people. They just got done being invaded by the moors, basically. And they brought with them the image. of (speaking foreign language). The virgin of Guadalupe, and Hernan Cortez's vision of that. or version of that was a lady holding a crystal scepter, baby Jesus, and standing on a crescent moon.

That's what he brought with him to the Americas. And when the conquest happened, you know, a lot of people will say, ah, the Spanish came. and conqueste the Aztec Empire. The enemies of the Aztec allied themselves with the Spanish. and they took them down, that's what happened. And then the rest was famine and sickness. That's what killed most of them. They realized that it was gonna be hard to suppress. some of the spiritual practices in Mexico,

so they decided to meld them with Catholic iconography. So you see this cult to (indistinct), which is like a fertility variant of a mother goddess. in Aztec culture. And they turn her into (speaking foreign language), which is the icon that a lot of Mexicans venerate. as the virgin. But in her, she conceals cultural elements from the past. She has a black sash across her stomach, which means she's pregnant.

Something common in the Aztec culture, in the Majika culture. She's standing on a chair that has eagle wings, that is a war god. That's the symbol of the war god down there. She has stars on her, which is a veil of certain stars. that are related to some of the spiritual practice. from before. Basically, they hid these things in that setting. Now you skip forward, you know, hundreds of years, and you start seeing things like Malverde,

who was a bandit that lived in Sinaloa way back in the day. He would rob rich farmers that would go. through the countryside. One time he was almost caught and he was shot. and injured and he was wanted by the government, so he told one of his friends to tell them where he was. and to give them money, the reward money to the townspeople. So he did that. He was hung from a tree, and the order.

was not to bury him, just to let his body rot, and his body rotted away until it fell on the ground, bones. And each of the townspeople would go over. and put a rock on top of his corpse. until it became a pile of rocks. And then he started granting miracles. So again, this whole aspect of these criminals. becoming saints, and also a middle finger. from the downward local populace to the church, in a way, because he's not a recognized saint,

but he has an altar and people venerate that. Then you have cartels that have a spiritual practice. or spirituality behind what they do, which is part of their culture, but is also like a tool they use to ingratiate themselves. with the local populace, or the population around them. There are icon icons of power and sometimes. of almost a symbol of rebellion. You see El Chapo's son when he was arrested.

had a (speaking foreign language) on his chest, which is, it's a holy (speaking foreign language), Spanish legend during the moors conquest, they said that a statue of that saint. would go around and feed some of the hungry, you know, that was the legend. And he's a saint of the persecuted. So the fact that when he was arrested, you see him with that, wearing that, and then he was liberated is a miracle in and of itself.

So it's proof that that works. You see that that was, you can find one of those. (speaking foreign language) anywhere in Mexico, that was the most highly sold one. So you see them utilizing some of these aspects. in their own belief system as a symbol. or as I can iconography, basically, for some of the things they do. Then you go into some of the other aspects of it. that are out there, like (speaking foreign language), which is actually a faith that I grew up in.

Mexico has a weird relationship to death. We have parties at the cemetery on Day of the Dead, I just went through one, you know, recently. This is November the second. So we celebrate our dead, and we celebrate death in a way. that I don't think a lot of cultures out there do. - So it's a joyful occasion. - It is a celebration, yeah. My eight-year-old put two beers on an altar, one for my mom, one for my brother. She bought a Snickers bar for my mom. and a bag of Pops for my brother,

flower petals and marigolds and pictures of them. on an altar. - That's amazing. What kind of beer? - (speaking foreign language) for my mother, because, you know, she was hardcore, and (speaking foreign language) for my brother. You know, he was more of an endurance drinker. And it's also for me, the relationship to death. down there is different. So there's an icon in Mexico, it's actually. one of the fastest growing alternative. spiritual practices in Mexico.

And not only in Mexico, but here in the US, I've been to Santa Muerte temples across the country. I found one in Connecticut out of all places. How I grew up with it, or I saw it. is we would, my family was on (indistinct). We were Catholic and we venerated the virgin of Guadalupe. specifically, the icon of the virgin of Guadalupe. But every now and then there were winks and nods. to a skeletal saint in family practices,

and even when I went to work, the older guys. that I was working with would tell me like, hey, we gotta go ask for protection. So they would drive me over to the church. and I thought I was going to the cathedral, and then we made a left turn and it wasn't the cathedral, it was the market next to the cathedral in Tijuana. And in the little corner there was a big Santa Muerte. reaper effigy, and then I knew why I had to bring.

a bottle of tequila. It was like, why am I bringing a bottle tequila. to a church? It was for her, for death, Muerte. It was partly hazing, and also. they did believe that they were basically imbued. with the being agents of death, in a way. So it was like a cultural thing as well. Something that they wore on them as not only protection, but as also like a samurai would wear.

this death iconography on them or how. the Maori would do haka dances, you know, to some of these guys in their kind of warrior culture. that they were growing up with or trying to imbue on us, the young guys. They would take us there and they would imbue us. with iconography of Santa Muerte to be like. a psychological thing. - So that gives you strength and meaning. in the face of struggle? Like, in the face of difficulties in life? - I think, you know, closeness to death.

and having a relationship to death. in the form of a symbolic representation of it. like Santa Muerte or an icon like that. makes it not as scary, I guess, or not only that, but it's also something. that the other side, the enemy, the cartels groups, they would venerate it as well. So when they would see it on you, it was almost debilitating to them. They were like, oh, are you guys cops? Are you guys, who are you, why are you wearing that? So there was an aspect of that to it.

A (speaking foreign language) type thing. where, you know, remember death, type thing. - Is there some aspect in which you don't wanna. mess with a person who meditates on death? - There was some of that, yeah. There was a saying, I think they probably. took it from a movie or something like that, but I don't know where they got it. "May I earn your need and be your wrath.". - Oh man, it's a good line. - They would say that to the statue of La Santa, you know.

And another thing people, it's not. a cartel-specific saint, though. It's like everybody, like on all levels, from the lady that sells tortillas to the cops. to the military. There's some people in the military that venerated. There's a very specific symbol of how this is like. a weird relationship, specifically in Santa Muerte. in Mexico, there's a shrine outside of Tijuana. right across the (indistinct).

It's like a water reservoir, right in south Tijuana. And there was a big Santa Muerte altar there, like on the roadside, and my former boss (indistinct). ordered that thing destroyed. He ordered a truck to destroy it. It was a famous thing, and it was rebuilt the next night. And I know for a fact that some of the people. that rebuilt that were some of the same guys that, you know, were there destroying it. - Oh man, that's pretty symbolic. So it's just not something that can be killed.

It's a part of the spirit of the people. It keeps getting destroyed by ultra-Christian groups. or Catholic groups, and it keeps getting rebuilt. Personally for me as a, you know, I don't believe that there's a reaper skeleton. in the sky protecting me, but I do believe. in the aspect of an ending, you know, and how it's important to, you know, the ending is important in all things. and death should be present in life.

And if it's not, then you're delusional about things. - So to you it's a mechanism to meditate on death. once again. - Yeah. And you know, having my daughter who's eight. view it as a benevolent thing, you know, she's a kid and she sees a skeleton. that represents death and she's just like... I think in a way, Mexicans have taken some of those aspects,

be it Day of the Dead, some of these practices. related to some occultism aspects around, you know, Saint Judas, you know, (speaking foreign language). Saint Judas is the patron saint of lost causes. And it's one of the most venerated saints in Mexico, you know, Jesus probably the fourth or fifth you pray to, which is pretty funny and ridiculous. But the reason why, and this is something. I heard from somebody that was actually, we found him with a gun, and on his gun,

he had a Saint Judas effigy. And he said, well, like why Saint Judas? (speaking foreign language). And he's like, well, he's the last saint you pray to. What do you mean? Well, on the list of saints you pray to, he's the last one, because when you pray to Judas, you might get the other Judas on the line. - Yeah. - That's the last one you pray to. That's why he's like the lost causes saint. How I remember, like, even how we try and bribe.

or like maneuver our way even in spiritual practices. You know. - Such a fascinating culture that's unlike anything else. - And it's right next door. And it's here too. Again, I found an altar in Connecticut, which is pretty fascinating. There's one in Arizona. Again, it's one of the fastest growing spiritual practices. not only in the US, but like across,

there's somebody from Russia reached out, there's an altar out there and there's a group of people. praying to Santa Muerte, and I've been posting. and writing a lot about it recently, just from my own experience and some of the stuff. that I gathered for myself, and all the way out there, those people are fascinated by some of those aspects. - So I gotta ask you about the dark turn. of that spirituality, or maybe you'll place this elsewhere, but who was Adolfo Costanzo, El Padrino? - This is a guy that comes up in a period,

I think he's at that initial period of cartels. This is before my time, and I've talked to. some of the people that were there for some of that. - I mean, he kills a lot of people. - He was exposed and learned through his family ties. about some of the Afro-Caribbean spiritualities. that are now also exploding as far as influences. across the world. Latin America and in the US. When I talk about that, I mean. (speaking foreign language).

basically some old spiritual practices. coming out of Africa that utilize things like engangas, which are basically spiritual vessels. that have to be loaded with human remains, in some cases. He was basically a spiritual practitioner. that certain cartel groups would hire. for them to curse the other side, to imbue them. with invisibility to be able to transport their drugs,

or protection spells and stuff like that. He was very successful at it, apparently, or at least, that is the experience of the people. paying for some of these practices. As his spells and his work kept getting bigger and bigger. and more and more complicated, the ingredients he needed for these engagas or these spells, these cauldrons that he would fill with certain elements, grew in complexity, till finally he said he needed.

the brain of a highly educated American of some sort, which led to his eventual downfall. He was basically responsible for abducting. and murdering a young American, who was. a university college student, I think. - Do you think he believed the... So this guy's murdering people to create what, magical potions? - Vessels, yeah. - Vessels. - Yeah, I think he truly believed.

that he was capable of doing what he was doing, I guess. - And there was a culture that spiritually inclined. that kinda was on the same wavelength as him. - Yeah, it jived, I mean, some of these spiritual practices, again, there's ritualistic cannibalism done. by some of these cartel groups out there. - Was he involved in cannibalism as well? - He wasn't involved in cannibalism that I know of, but most of the things that he was kind of known for. was basically requesting human body parts. for some of the spell works he was doing,

and then going to such a level where he needed. a specific brain or head of somebody. that was educated and American. So that kind of, again, led to his eventual downfall. His ranch was raided, they found the body parts. inside of these cauldrons that he was preparing. That's an interesting example of somebody, there's a cartel head somewhere in central Mexico as well. Hermez Loco was his nickname, and he basically. forced the citizenship around him to turn him into a saint.

So he like he made a statue of himself. He was very big into Christianity, specifically kind of like the crusader, you know, mentality and all of that, kind of imbued himself. and some of the people that were around him with that. And there's still altars to him after he died. He died two times. One time, the government declared him. that he was killing a shootout, and turns out he wasn't dead. So that was his first miracle, you know.

And then when he was really dead, some of his people and his loyal followers. were like gunpoint kind of still forced to go. and, you know, give flowers and venerate. these effigies and statues of him as a saint. It's a powerful weapon. Spirituality in Mexico's a powerful weapon. And you know, the church, Catholic Church in Mexico. has a pretty bad track record, as far as that being used to control the populace. and stuff like that, and I think it's just.

another aspect that is being exploited in Mexico, in some communities as far as the spirituality, and the desperate need for people to believe. in something, and how that leads for some people. to go into some horrible predatory behavior around it. - There's a fascinating dynamic at play here. So it's not just the United States and Mexico, it's also China that you talk about. China's the primary source of fentanyl in the world. So fentanyl is an opioid that leads to 70,000 plus or minus.

overdose deaths in the US every year. So reading from Wikipedia, "compared with heroin, it is more potent, has higher profit margins, and because it is compact, has simpler logistics. It can be cut into or even replace entirely. the supply of heroin and other opiates.". What do you think is important to understand about fentanyl. as a drug? - There was a prescription opiate epidemic. in the United States that kind of went down or stopped,

you know, well, still out there, but like, the epidemic specific around it kind of petered out. And there was also marijuana legalization. happening at kind of the same time period, which, you know, people talking about marijuana legalization. thought it was gonna hit the cartels in their pockets, and it was gonna be like, you know, a death blow. to these criminal groups. Well, now there's illegal pot grows in the United States.

being run by cartels in federal lands. There's the legal pot grows that are in some way, shape, or form influenced and/or run or owned. by some criminal groups that are kind of utilizing that. the marijuana fields in Mexico turned into. poppy fields once again. The problem is that some of these lands. were leached of all the nutrients and, you know, they're not as good as something you would find. somewhere in Afghanistan, so the yield and the quality of it. wasn't as strong as it could be.

So somebody thought about the bright idea. of putting fentanyl into the mix. And not only that, but also figuring out. how to get fentanyl into Mexico. Mexico has a giant pharmaceutical industry. that people kind of also don't kind of know. or factor into this equation, which leads into. the free ability of chemicals going. in and out of the country and legal means.

of it happening, right? So not only the precursors to make it, but also the chemist and the industry. to create it in Mexico as well. Some clandestine factories of fentanyl. have been found in Mexico, but realistically, it's not needed with the ways that the ports. and the borders are down in Mexico. You started seeing an influx and a flood of fentanyl. into Mexico, specifically related to. infusing it into heroin.

And not only using that to feed local drug markets, but send it up into the United States, which started off this process that we're kind of. going through still. - Are these like similar highs? And drug-wise, why do you infuse... I mean, probably you're not the right person. to have this biochemical discussion of how-. - I don't know about the biochemical aspect of it, but like speaking to guys that do chiba down there, - [Lex] What's chiba? - That's what they call heroin down there. It's like a nickname for it. Having them describe some of the older, stinkier,

darker heroin they used to get. before this whole fentanyl thing, and the highs they would get and how much. they would have to take, versus some of the stuff. loaded with fentanyl that they have to, you know, slow down. - Also, there's higher potency. - Yeah, there's a higher potency to it, and also there's a, you know. - More money to be made, easier to transport. - [Ed] Yeah. - But then, is this how China starts. becoming part of the picture? - One aspect to it that people kind of miss is that,

you know, there's no Chinese cartel, you know, there's no criminal Chinese organization working unseen, getting around government oversight in China. I don't know of any such organization. - So anything that could be labeled. as a criminal organization is deeply integrated. with the government. - I mean, I've never heard of giant criminal enterprise. in China operating, so we have to assume then-. - Independent of the state.

- I would have to assume that some of these things. are happening with the know-how and inaction. of the government out there. When COVID hit, there was a shortage of fentanyl. on the northern side of Mexico, specifically. related to the Sinaloa law cartel. These guys were actually trafficking fentanyl. from the US down to Mexico to infuse their product. Butt not the New Generation cartel. which operates out of the central part of Mexico, the Colima area, which have access to the seaside ports.

So even during the shutdown, they were getting supplied, which means, to me at least, or for anybody observing it, that the supply chain was not cut, and whatever. was coming outta China was being let outta China. by whatever official channels would be able. to shut down or stop it. - God, I would love to know the organizational structure, the governmental structure of China, how they enable it,

because I can't imagine at the very top. there's like a portfolio of things we're doing, and one of them is fentanyl trade. - I think it's more inaction, or just to know. how that is happening, but just like hands off, just let this, I don't know. - If I were to understand how large bureaucracies work, it's looking the other way. - Yeah. You are now seeing pill presses brought to Mexico,

industrial level pill presses found in. clandestine laboratories where they're not only. infusing the yields that they're doing with fentanyl, but also making fake pain medication. that is flooding US markets everywhere. as far as, is that pain medication or is that fentanyl? You know, who knows? And that's how you see a lot of people dying from ODs. that are supposedly taking pain pills. and that's not what they're doing. So the evolution right now you're seeing.

is making something look legit. as far as pain medication that isn't, and I mean, fentanyl is everywhere. They're infusing cocaine with it. I've been getting stories from the US of people buying it. through Alibaba or just weird online sources. and it coming in different packages. and then just infusing it into whatever is out there. It is killing off a whole generation of people, and it comes from one place, or it's manufactured.

somewhere where it's being manufactured. with the precursors and the elements and know-how. that comes from one place. - [Lex] Are we talking about China? - Talking about China. - Because Mexico seems to have, what's the role, this is such a complicated, and how do you start to talk about the drug war. when more and more and more, China. is the source of the drug? Is there a drug war going on with China? - There's probably an economic war.

There's another side to China. And this is something that's come out recently, a few years back, I think. But basically, the ways you would move money. back into Mexico after you have a load up here. is that you would give it to a Chinese money broker. They would put it into a Chinese banking system. and it immediately would just disappear from American eyes. And then another money broker in Mexico would receive it. through a money transfer from China. - So China's incredibly good at money laundering. - That's another aspect to,

I mean, their banking system is invisible to the US, basically. - Which allows-. - Which allows the monies to move from one point to another. So money brokers and people moving money. for the groups down there are Chinese. So that's another aspect, or element of China, as far as its presence. - What's the role of intelligence in all of this? FBI, CIA, the Chinese intelligence agencies. - Right now, Mexico is going through.

a nationalistic resurgence and a leftist presidency, which is not friendly to US interest in a lot of ways. The US has had a pretty bad track record. with its foreign policy in Mexico, with a lot of damage being done by the last president. as far as his rhetoric. - [Lex] Donald Trump? - Which has been weaponized and utilized. by the left down in Mexico. - So America is not seen positively. - No. Every now and then, I post something about Mexico,

some horrible thing happening down there, it's like, why doesn't US send people down there, like, aren't Mexicans looking for like US intervention? It's like, no, that is beyond what anybody. in Mexico would want, as specifically you see. that the sentiment out there, they don't view the US. as somebody that's gonna come in and fix anything. or somebody that's gonna help or as a friend. When the Ukrainian conflict happened, Mexico basically abstained from saying anything,

which is a wink and a nod to Russia. It has openly been pro-moduro and openly celebrated. to some of these regimes be popping up. across Latin America, you know, which is, that is what people voted for. That is the sentiment down there. They're going towards the left of the political spectrum. because of they've been basically violated. over and over again by all these different presidencies. that have promised change, brought corruption with them, and they are choices.

So this is the best we have right now. And all of the enemies of the United States. are taking full advantage of that. You know, we recently had a general kind of address. at a senate committee hearing, I think, he was talking about the prevalence. of foreign intelligence services in Mexico, you know, and why that is. Well, you know, Mexico has a lot of the mineable lithium. on the planet underneath parts of it, specifically in the north. It is going through a process, they call it.

(speaking foreign language), the Fourth Transformation. is what the president of Mexico calls it, which is, in a way, it's basically we're here to stay. type thing. You know, they just nationalized mining lithium. and taking control of that and using that as leverage. If the United States ever wants to go to Mexico, it's probably not gonna be related to cartel issues, it's gonna probably be related to energy, I think, you know, they're kind of thinking ahead, I guess. - Well, what about also, just imagine a world.

where India and China are doing fentanyl trade. with Mexico or whatever transport. Imagine Chinese military moves, makes an agreement, a NATO type of agreement with Mexico. - That's pretty possible. Again, we're seeing a militarized Mexico, it's another aspect of Mexico that, again, I haven't seen talked about a lot here in the US. The main problems that the current president had. was he was gonna make the police, the federal police.

and the security issues in Mexico, civilian. He was gonna do exactly the opposite as his main rival, Felipe Calderon, the guy that started off. the drug war officially. And what does he do? He dissolves the civilian leadership of the federal police, dissolves the federal police, creates the National Guard, which is a military unit, and he puts the military. in charge of that. Now the military has a full monopoly.

over all federal policing. They're it, when you cross into Mexico, you'll see them wearing these white camouflage uniforms. Those are national guard people, but they're military. So you now you're seeing a militarized Mexico. with some of these leaks that happened. during the (indistinct) leaks. You're now seeing that Mexico has been hosting. members of the Haitian military, and they've been training them up to go back. to police their country.

That's not something that Mexico has been known for, to hosting other nations and training them in such a way. So it's an interesting maneuver. Like Mexico has been historically neutral. about getting involved in foreign conflicts, about voting and resolutions as far as invading. or not invading or doing all these things. Mexico has been historically kind of neutral. when it comes to some of these things, and now we're training foreign military forces. to go and do that role somewhere else.

We have the military building airports. and building infrastructure in Mexico. and a lot of their higher ups getting very, you know, wealthy around it, and they basically. have a monopoly over, you know, who gets to have guns down there, you know, there's one gun store in all Mexico, and it's run by the military, and the only way. you can buy a gun there is if you can buy. a plane ticket to fly there and have enough money. to sustain that right or that privilege. So you're seeing the military not being.

in its traditional role of just being the security force, now it's policing. It's getting involved in politics in a big way. Legislation to has passed to keep it on the streets. in a policing role for more years now, so it should be looked at closer by anybody observing it. from afar, the militarization of Mexico. and where it's going. - Because if you move towards a world. where a World War III happens, it feels like Mexico will be the center,

because a hot war would be fought on the ground. And so you have a very difficult parallel. between Mexico and Ukraine. Both don't have nuclear weapons, both have relationships. So Ukraine has a relationship or a pull towards it, the European Union and NATO, Mexico, at least currently, has a kind of slow pull. towards China, India potentially, and Russia, and you have this divide between power centers in the world,

and in terms of, just imagine hundreds of thousands. of Mexican troops, hundreds of thousands of Chinese troops. on the border, on the US border. - [Ed] Yeah. - On the Mexican side. - And also the fact that that border. doesn't mean anything to any sort of conflict. that would happen regionally, because that's a very easy. to cross border. Doesn't matter how many walls you put across it,

people are already here. This is not gonna be a war fought off. in some overseas place. Like you're not gonna, this is something, if it happens, if destabilization is utilized in Mexico. to cause a conflict there, and it's turns into a Vietnam, or a proxy war down there of a sort. which I think, in a way you're already. kind of seeing some of that through some of the conflicts. going on down there. You have New Generation cartel that is being fed. fentanyl from the Pacific side ports.

and suspiciously, you know, you want to think. that maybe it's favored by a foreign government. of some sort, in some way, shape, or form, who knows? And then you have a historically in control Sinaloa cartel. that may or may not be favored by the US. in some way, shape, or form. You can imagine further conflict down there. and people fostering it, and seeing the effects. of basically setting a fire on the feet. of the United States. Its second largest consumer of US products is Mexico.

The massive wave of immigration. that is going to be basically weaponized. You know, you saw the collapse. of the border security structure with a contingent. of 3000 Honduran, Guatemalan immigrants. in that first wave of caravans coming to Tijuana. You saw it was pretty bad, you know, it was pretty bad, and it could have gotten worse.

Now, what is gonna happen when that wave is. no longer 3000, but you know, a million people. being displaced by violence or being in fear. of whatever conflict might originate down there, and just that massive wave of migration and move. I think that's an interesting thing. that people should look at and, you know, how can you affect change to try and stop. some of these things that happen.

- Well, lemme ask you at a philosophical, at a human level, what do you think about immigration? Illegal and legal immigration from the direction. of Mexico to the United States? So we have an estimated 11 million illegal immigrants. in the United States, and estimated 45 million. legal immigrants in the United States. - A few things about that. When COVID hit, there was no shortages of produce. in the supermarkets, which means that, I mean,

illegal immigration is pretty much the backbone. of all produce and some of the farming industries out there, you know, most of it. So illegal immigration and illegal workers. in those fields are essential workers, in a way. I think there's a weird relationship in the United States. with some of these workers and how they're demonized. and how they're called criminals. I think there was a state out there. that passed anti-illegal immigrant worker legislation.

The farmers had to look elsewhere for people. to show up to work in some of these fields, which basically cost millions of dollars. worth of losses for some of these farms. Anywhere you go out there in the United States, you go into the kitchens and there's gonna be. (speaking foreign language) there, you know, high level French restaurants. You'll see people from Puebla there. that made their way illegally and might have. legalized or regularized their way into the country, or are in a sanctuary city.

You go to the service industry, hotels, you know, those are the people changing the blankets. Those are the people in the washrooms. You have them doing jobs that no American wants to do, realistically, and they're everywhere in this country. And they are the backbone of some of these industries. that are essential in this country. - Do you think there's a deep sense in which. they are American? - I think they're indispensable, and anybody that says they aren't is delusional.

If you take every single illegal worker. out of the industry in the United States and send them back, like, there's a movie out there called like. (speaking foreign language), "A Day Without Mexicans,". you know, everything would stop. So, the relationship is there. People talk about the history of slavery in this country, like it's a thing that is in the past. There's indentured slaves in the country right now. People that are paying off their people smugglers.

because they brought 'em into this country. and they haven't been able to pay that fine or that fee yet, and are basically being held hostage. by that here in the United States. So there's slaves right now in the United States, you know, people are talking about its historical context. - What do we do about it? How are we supposed to think about it? - We're gonna have to rethink how we look at immigration, illegal or legal immigration from Mexico. and how we view Mexico as a foreign country. Your relationship to Canada is one thing.

Your relationship to Mexico is another. The foreign policy towards Mexico has been. pretty nefarious as far as the United States. in a lot of ways. You know, you can go back, there was a student massacre. during the Olympics, and the president in turn. at that time was on the CIA payroll. And it was a counter-communist type maneuver. they were doing down there. But there's some bloody hands on the US side. of some of the things that have been happening in Mexico.

as far as destabilization and influencing and meddling. in foreign policy out there. Most of the guns that are used down there come from the US, you know, and that's another interesting aspect. and responsibility that people should. kind of think about up here. - So there is, on the drug war side, a machine that's fueling the drug war. - I mean, there's a giant drug habit up here, you know? - But also a governmental intelligence. and military support through the sale of weapons. - I don't know about the sale of weapons, but you know,

there's some very... We talk about porous borders coming up. There's porous borders also going down, you know, there's a flow of guns going down and munitions, which again, guns, they don't kill anybody by themselves. You know, they get put in the hands. of the desperate that are trying to feed. a giant drug market to the north. You know, Mexico has a saying, (speaking foreign language). Mexico, far from God, but close to the United States.

Right? And there's definitely a responsibility on both sides. This is no longer a Mexico problem, a US problem. This is a regional problem. And if we don't think of it as a regional problem. with our brothers on the southern side of it, and with family, we're related in blood. They're like, we are, Mexico and the United States. are like this, but it's become popular in politics, they just draw a line, right?

And I think we need to get to a place. where we can figure out how to make those connections. and repair some of the damage done by like, just years and years of bad policy. on both sides of the border. - Policy and rhetoric. The way we talk about it, the way we think about it, not just the actual policy, but seeing the humanity. in the people that are here. - Yeah, it's an easy thing. "They're coming to take our jobs" is something you hear. There was a state out there that passed some.

anti legislation as far as illegal workers on fields, and it led to massive losses. Nobody wanted to show up for those jobs, basically. People would show up one day and they wouldn't come back. and they were doing jobs that people just don't want to do. Are they taking that from the locals, or are they filling an essential role. that we feel guilty about? And the rhetoric around it is more about guilt. than anything. I'm an immigrant myself, you know.

I've gone through the experience of doing it legally, and I've seen people not do it legally, and are in way better places than I am basically. by going around some of the system. The system itself, the immigration system here in the US is, there's something wrong, you know, it's kind of broken. And people coming here illegally are not only, you know, they're looking for a better life for themselves, a better life for people.

This whole aspect of vilifying them and they're like, ah, there's this immigrant did this horrible thing, this immigrant did that horrible thing, and people saying, you know, "go back to your country.". At the same time, they go to a hotel where. all the service staff is from that part of the world, and they're here irregularly, or they go to the, you know, Whole Foods and they get some produce there, and it's picked by some of the same people. they're vilifying. And again, we need to kind of like, think about that and analyze that for ourselves.

- Yeah, the idea of go back to your country. and finding the other and having a disdain. and a hate towards the other. Ever since I had a recent conversation with Ye, formerly known as Kanye West, I got to hear a few things from... Let's say, unfriendly messages from white nationalists, and I got to learn about this world. I continue on the journey of learning, which is the idea that the United States,

this country, should look a certain way, should have a certain skin color, should have a certain religion, and everything else is a pollution, is a poison to this. I made it sound hateful right now, but they usually frame it in a positive way, like the purity. I'm sure Hitler also phrased everything in a positive way, especially in the 1930s, about the purity of Germany. But the reality of the United States, and one of the things that makes it, at least the ideal of the United States, is the soup, the mix, unlike so many nations I've traveled to,

there's the diversity, the good kind of diversity, is what makes this country great. And so I think it needs to be based. on accepting the different subgroups. that make up the United States versus trying to purify it. And I think Mexican immigrants is just another flavor. of saying, this is the other, let's reject the other. - Yeah, I saw that interview, by the way. That was, you showed a basic restraint in that interview.

My experience, and I came up here, again, Trump was elected when I came up here, so it was a weird time for me as far as. being an immigrant in the immigrant experience for myself. by both being, you know, basically the bad, the ones that were, you know, talked about in that way. And also having a bunch of my friends. who were very conservative and, you know, wearing some of those MAGA hats around me and like, hey, Ed, like, well, I mean, you know.

I'm a guest here, so I have to, you know. But it's a balancing act is what I've been looking at it as. You know, on one side, there's the woke side of it, which everything goes, and on the other side is like, let's hold on to some of these things. that make us who we are. On my end, you know, I want to get to a place. where I can smoke a joint, conceal carry a firearm, be at my gay best friend's wedding, and I want the government not to say anything about it, and I think there's parts in the United States here.

that kind of feel the same way, but there's extremes on both sides. that are pulling you to one side or the other. And I've seen more of the United States than most Americans. I'm in a different state every weekend. So I get to go to, going to Tampa tomorrow, then I'm going back to California, then I'm going to Tennessee later, then Kentucky. So I get to see all types of people. and all types of mentalities and ways that people live, and this country is more diverse than most would think,

you know, if you only see it through. the lens of television or media. What I keep seeing out there, that for me is like. the reason I came here, I guess. And a lot of the reasons that I feel. a vested interest in this country, not just because of, again, my kid's American. So I have a very, very big interest. in this country doing well. But the thing I see is there's still the opportunity. and the ability to do something with yourself,

and opportunities out there for people like me. that come here with nothing. I came here with an experience base, a truck. - And some demons. - And yeah, and a bunch of demons in a bag. And I'm here with you talking right now. about some of those experiences. - To another immigrant. - To another immigrant, and both of us. are reaching people out there that, you know, might haven't heard a voice of people like us. that come here with our own bag of demons.

But where else in the world can two people like us. have a conversation with an audience like us. and not be shot outside of this. because of the stuff we're saying? - Yeah, listen to with love and respect, not derision. Let me ask you for advice. What would you say to young folks, wherever they come from? So in high school and college, they're thinking of how to live a life,

have a career they can be proud of, and especially if they're struggling, especially if they're at a low point like you were. when you came here? - Travel. Travel is one of the biggest things in the world. that I would ask people to kind of go out to. See how other people live. Don't go there with your own preconceived notions. or trying to make people act like you act, like go out there and travel and actually. experience the world. And it doesn't have to be another country. Going from Tennessee to Seattle, you know,

is a pretty interesting change of scenery. - Who's better at knife fighting? Just kidding, you don't have to answer that. - Tennessee. But the traveling is one, and knowing how other people live. is one aspect of it I would tell people. It's risky, it's dangerous, but that is part of the journey. is one of the things I would ask people, young people to kind of like consider. Service is essential, and it should be.

at the basis of all of our lives. Service, start there, start with service. In any industry, you're going to go. start your own restaurant, you have to. work in the kitchen first, service. If you're gonna be a productive member of this country, service, and I'm not talking just about the military, because the military, it's a process and it's a lifestyle. and it's a thing for some people out there. It's not even a choice for other people. if they want an education, and I get that. Community service of any kind is an essential thing.

The ability to go out there and interact with the people. that you would normally not interact with, homeless population that there is in this country. The older population that, in Mexico, our old die in our homes, you know, but here, you send them off somewhere else to die, which is an interesting weird detachment. that I've seen in the US as far as how the elders. are cast aside. If I can say anything to young people, is to start figuring out a life of service,

and that's gonna expose you to a bunch of experiences, to a bunch of people out there that you might not. regularly kind meet and see, and realities. Education is out there. It is expensive, but I've sat through. a bunch of really expensive classes. that I've managed to see on YouTube. and learned a lot from them. So education is out there, but it doesn't have to be. as expensive as they make it. It's all about the individual and what he does. with that education.

The dream is free and the hustle is sold separately. is something else I watched somewhere online. But the ability to take information, process it and use it. We are expecting everything to be safe, processed, and given to us on a platter, and taking that and digesting it, thinking that's gonna make us somebody. that's gonna be productive or valuable in society. That's up to us. The US talks a lot about freedoms, but doesn't talk a lot about responsibilities.

And I think that's a big part of, you know, take responsibility for, like, I came here without anything, and the first thing. I thought was, I have a responsibility. for the people that I've worked with. and the people that are going through. the same problems than I am. How can I figure out a way to help? - Yeah, the dark side of thinking a lot about freedom. is thinking too individualistically, meaning thinking about me, how to optimize my situation, forgetting that the deepest growth you can do. as an individual is by taking care of others,

by helping others, by being of service, by being useful to your community locally, and then hopefully also at scale. And that's how you grow, and that's responsibility. of like helping those around you. - There's an isolationist aspect to culture now. It's like we are separate, there's almost. like a spiritual or cultural amputation. in a way where, you know, when I was a kid, the house with all the bikes outside of it, that was where all the kids were hanging out,

and now everybody's on their phone, you know, separate houses, chatting on whatever. There's a detachment there. It's a weird aspect to it. And also the aspect of I need to be safe. I can't be offended, don't hurt me, safe spaces. This is my right, this is my right, this is my reality, you need to respect it, you know, respect is earned. And where I come from respect is earned. There's freedoms, but there's dangerous freedoms.

Any freedom you have in Mexico. is a dangerous freedom in a way. You can drive home drunk in Mexico. You can. If you bribe a cop on your way there. and if you don't die or crash into somebody else. That's a dangerous aspect of freedom. But there's a responsibility to all of it. It is a twisted responsibility and a twisted way. kind of to talk about it and describe it, but I think the aspect of people screaming for freedom.

up here or their rights or their privilege. without the responsibility, you know, what are you doing for your community? You know, you're complaining about this, what are you doing about it? Another thing I've noticed in traveling around. that's scary is the whole people getting shouted down. or canceled because of what they express or say. - Yeah. - Some of the creepiest experiences I've had in the US. has been through universities or just seeing young people.

that have an opinion that is completely outside of reality. People telling me how things are in Mexico, because they learned it through a college course. And seeing sons of immigrants criticizing me. because of my opinion of Mexico, or what I have to say about it. And you know, if you want to encounter. the worst enemy of a Mexican is usually a second, third generation Mexican up here that shouts you down. for what you're saying.

- I mean, in general, entitlement, all of those kinds of things. Some of that comes with just being young in general. But yes, humility. Humility at a societal scale would benefit significantly, especially the young. So I would say some of the service that you're speaking to. is, comes with being humbled. - [Ed] Yeah. - And that is one of the best things you can do. as a young person, whilst maintaining the dream. and the ambition, humble yourself.

to the reality of the world. - Yeah. One small example, a micro example of this. My kid. There was a homeless guy. She was out with some, with family members. This homeless guy showed up, he was erratic, mentally disturbed, created a scene. She was upset. There was a little bit of trauma there. She's like, oh, now all homeless people are bad. So with her, she does art pieces sometimes for me.

and helps me make designs for the clothing brand. that I have. And we take some of that money and we buy socks. and underwear, you know, and sometimes. I have 'em in the car, sometimes I drive around. and see somebody that needs something. and I give it to her and I says, "you helped me earn this money. that's gonna help these people, so you should just give 'em these.". And she's like... You know? And I'm like, ah, thank you. And she's like, hey, cool.

Rolls up the window. She used to roll up the window really quick, now she doesn't. They ceased to be scary. Because now some of them have names, now some of 'em know her name, when she crosses by there. So she's, there's contact there. She's more connected than I am in some of these places now. You know, she has friends in low places, and in high places, that comes later, I guess. But she's learning about service. She's learning about not everybody out there.

is an enemy or bad or scary. She's learning about service, and she's basically learning. that lesson that I got from my mom long ago. You know, nobody's against you, they're for themselves. Don't take anything personal. And if you're not doing something for other people. while you're working, then you're not doing anything. - So when you were young, you were pretty sure. you're gonna die before you're 30. What's your relationship with death today? Do you think about your mortality?

Are you afraid of it? - I'm not afraid of it. If anything, I'm afraid of a meaningless death, or at least a meaningless walk towards it. I'm afraid of losing use of my legs, I guess, I'm afraid of not being able to go out there. and do things anymore, I'm afraid that I'm. not physically capable of doing the job that I used to do. So if anything, I'm afraid of stillness. You know, it's something I always quote a lot in my writing.

Stillness is death. - So you always want to be challenging yourself moving, growing, like you're traveling, so you get. all these experiences and filling your life. with all these experiences, and if it ends when it ends, you're ready for it. - Yeah. I'm not afraid of the end. The ending is important in all things. First time I got a promotion, I got two silver coins. handed to me. Here's a silver coin, and this is another silver coin. And he said, "I'll give you the the other one. when your job ends.".

It depends on you if you wanted to have it. over your eyes or in your pocket, right? And the lesson there is that, you know, this job you're getting, it's pretty cool. and you're gonna be in charge of all these people. and it's pretty important, but it's gonna end. So you always have to, the ending. is important in all things. If we don't keep that in mind, then if you think. we're immortal and nothing's gonna end, I think there's an atrophy, a spiritual atrophy in that. - For the sake of spiritual flourishing, this conversation too must come to an end.

So I think a beautiful way to end it. And I'm a huge fan of yours. Thank you for being a man with a life well lived, and for talking with me today, it's an honor, man. It was an awesome conversation. - Thank you for having me on. - Thanks for listening to this conversation. with Ed Calderon. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors. in the description. And now, let me leave you with some words. from Al Pacino's character in "Scarface," Tony Montana. "You don't have the guts to be where you want to be.

You need people like me so you can point your fingers. and say, that's the bad guy.'". Thanks for listening, and hope to see you next time.