Duncan Trussell: Comedy, Sentient Robots, Suffering, Love & Burning Man | Lex Fridman Podcast #312

if this is a super intelligence if it's. folding proteins and analyzing like all. data sets and all whatever they give it. access to how can we be certain that. it's not going to figure out how to get. itself. out of the cloud how to store itself in. other like mediums trees the optic nerve. the brain you know what i mean we don't. know that we don't know that it won't. leap out and like start hanging like and. then at that point now we do have the. wildfire now you can't stop it you can't. unplug it you can't shut your servers.

down because it left the box it left the. room using some technology you haven't. even discovered yet how fucking cool. would that be for like the men in black. to come to me like listen. i need you to infiltrate the fucking. comedy scene. the following is a conversation with. duncan trussell a stand-up comedian host. of the duncan trussell family hour. podcast and one of my favorite human. beings i've been a fan of his for many. years so it was a huge honor and.

pleasure to meet him for the first time. and to sit down for this chat. this is the lex freedom podcast to. support it please check out our sponsors. in the description and now dear friends. here's duncan trussell. nietzsche has this thought experiment. called eternal recurrence. where you. get to relive your whole life over and. over and over and over and i think it's. a way to. bring to the surface of your mind the.

idea that every single moment in your. life matters it intensely matters the. bad and the good and he kind of wants. you to. imagine that idea that every single. decision you make throughout your life. you repeat over and over and over and he. wants you to respond to that do you feel. horrible about that or do you feel good. about that and you have to. think through this idea in order to see. where you stand in life how you what is. your relationship like with life i. actually want to read his the way he. first introduces that concept.

for people who are not familiar. what if some day or night a demon by the. way he has a demon introduced this. thought experiment. what if some day or night a demon were. to steal after you into your loneliest. loneliness and say to you. quote this life as you now live it and. have lived it you will have to live once. more and innumerable times more and. there will be nothing new in it but. every pain and every joy and every.

thought and sigh and everything. unutterably small and great in your life. will have to return to you all in the. same succession and sequence. would you not throw yourself down and. gnash your teeth and curse the demon who. spoke thus. or. have you once experienced the tremendous. moment when you would have answered him. you are a god and never have i heard. anything more divine. so are you terrified or excited about. such a thought experiment when you. applied to your own life excited.

excited oh even the dark stuff oh yeah. for sure definitely i mean also. that thing you're talking about it he. he kind of leaves out. maybe on purpose because the thought. experiment starts falling apart a little. bit yeah the amnesia between each loop. so. you know the whole thing gets wiped now. if the amnesia wasn't there and yet. somehow you were. witnessing the non-autonomy. implicit in what he's talking about so.

you have to kind of watch yourself go. through this rotten loop then yeah. that's a description there's probably a. boredom that comes into that so you. don't experience everything anew exactly. the best stuff the good stuff the. newness of it is really important that's. it yeah this is the uh. in the in hades when you die. you. there's a river i think it's called leaf. you ever heard of this l-e-t-h-e you. drink from it and you don't remember. your past lives and then when you're. reborn it's fresh and you don't have to.

i mean just think of like the amount of. psychological help you would need to get. over all the bullshit that happened in. prior lives. you know can you imagine if you're still. resentful of something someone did to. you in the 14th century. but it would it would compound well if. you repeat the same thing over and over. and over. there would be no difference maybe you. would start to appreciate the nuances. more like when you watch the same movie. over and over and over yeah maybe you'll.

get to. actually. um. let go of this idea of all the possible. all the positive possibilities that lay. before you but actually enjoy the moment. much more if you remember that you've. lived this life a thousand times all the. little things the way somebody smiles. uh if you're been abused the way. somebody like the pain of it. the the suffering the down that you feel. the experience of sadness depression. fear all that kind of stuff you get to. really. uh yeah you get to also appreciate that. that's part of life yeah part of being a.

life. now also in his experiment if i was. gonna and i love the experiment from the. perspective of like just where. technology is now and simulation theory. and stuff like that but. in that in that thought experiment if. this rotten demon. immediately killed you. then within that it's a little more. horrifying because even in the. first of all you're trusting a fucking. demon why are you talking to a demon. yeah start there yeah because that is.

going to be even before i get into like. the metaphysics and like the. implications and where is this life. stored where's the loop stored i mean. are we talking about some kind of. unchanging data set or something before. that you're like why is there a fucking. talking demon in my room trying to freak. me out. you're going to want to autopsy the. demon can you catch it does this apply. to you demon and again obviously it's a. fucking thought experiment nietzsche. would be annoyed by me but i think like. you would still be able to entertain. the.

joy you'd have the joy of not knowing. what's around the corner you know still. it's not like you know what's coming. just because the demon said some kind of. loop in other words the idea of being. damned to your past decisions. it doesn't even work because you can't. remember what decisions you're about to. make. so from from that perspective also i. think i'd be happy about it or i would. just think oh cool i mean it's a good. story i'm gonna tell people about how. this i wonder what the demon would. actually look like in real life because. i suspect it would look like. like a charming like a friend.

wouldn't wouldn't they be a loved one. wouldn't the demon come to you. through the mechanism through the front. door of love not to the back door. of evil. like malevolent manipulation sure i mean. if it's the truth. if it's the truth then that's. whether it's love or not it's still good. fundamentally. i do like the idea of the memory replay. uh i remember i went to a newer link. event a few years ago.

and got to hang out with elon. i remember how visceral it is that. there's like a pig. with the neural link. in it. and you're talking about memory replays. as a future maybe far future possibility. and you realize well this is a very. meaningful moment in my life. this could be a replay like of all the. things you replay it's probably. you know there's certain magical moments. in your life whatever whatever it is. certain people you've met for the first. time or.

certain things you've done for the first. time with certain people or not just an. awesome thing you did and i remember. just saying to him like i would probably. want to replay this. at. this moment and yeah it just seemed very. kind of. i mean there was a recursive nature to. it but it seemed. very real that this is something you'd. want to do with that. the richness of life could be. experienced through the replay that's. probably where it's experienced the most.

like you could see life as a way to. collect a bunch of cool memories and. then you get to sit back in your nice vr. headset and replay the cool ones that's. right this is in buddhism you know the. the idea that like i struggle with is. that there's a possibility of not. reincarnating of not coming back that's. the idea like you this is the this is. suffering here the suffering is caused. by attachment and so. if you like revise.

the idea of reincarnation or. the. nietzsche's loop. and look at it from. could this be possible or how would this. be possible technologically. then. to me it makes a lot of sense like i've. been thinking a lot about this very. thing and that nietzsche's idea. connecting to it i had this like. it sounds so dumb but i was at the. dentist getting nitrous oxide. high as a fucking kite man and i had.

this idea. i was thinking about data i was thinking. like. man probably if i had to bet there's. some energetic form that we're not aware. of that for a super advanced technology. would be as. detectable as like starlight but. something that we just don't even know. what it is. quantum turbulence who the fuck knows. fill in the blank whatever that x may be. but assuming that exists that somehow. data even the most subtle things the. tiniest movements whatever it may be the.

emanations of your neurological process. energetically whatever it may be is. radiating out into space-time. then. what if like the james webb version of. this for some advanced civilization is. not that they're like looking at the. nebula or whatever but they're actually. able to peer into the past and via some. bizarre technology recreate whatever. life simulate whatever life was. happening there just by decoding that.

quantum energy whatever it is i'm only. saying quantum because it's what dumb. people say when they don't know you just. they want them i don't know but you know. you're decoding that so meaning you know. in simulation theory one of the big. questions that pops up is. why and are we in one and. elon has talked about well it's probably. more of a probability than we're in one. then we're not in which case what you're. talking about. is actually happening that that loop. you're talking about it's we've decided.

to be here we this of all the things. we decided this one oh let's do that one. again i want to do that one let's try. let's do that that's. i love thinking about this because i got. i love my family yeah and it makes sense. to me that if i'm going to replay some. life or another it's definitely going to. be this one with my kids my wife with. all the bullshit that's gone along with. it i'm still going to want to come back. so in buddhism that's attachment. yeah but you weren't the one or you're. saying you're the main player you're not.

the mpc well i think we're dealing with. all npcs at this point i mean depending. on how you want to like very i would say. very advanced npcs like incredibly. advanced. npcs compared to uh fallout or something. you know we've got a lot of conversation. options happening here. there's not like four things you can. pick from yeah but there's a whole uh. illusion of free will that's happening. we really do depending where you are in. the world feel like you're free to. decide any trajectory in your life that.

you want which is pretty funny right for. an npc is pretty it's nice well you're. gonna want that if we're making a video. game you do want to give your npcs the. illusion of free will because it's going. to make interactions with him that's. that much more intense. yeah. so i wonder on the path to that. how how hard is it to create this is the. sort of the carmack question of um. a realistic virtual world. that's as cool as this one not fully.

realistic but sufficiently realistic. that it's. as interesting to live in because we're. going to create those worlds. on the path to creating something. like a simulation yes like long long. long before it'll be virtual worlds. where we want to stay forever because. they're full of. they're full of uh. that balance of suffering and joy of. limitations and freedoms and all that. kind of stuff a lot of people think like.

in the virtual world i can't wait to be. able to. i don't know. have sex with anybody i want or have. anything i want but i think that's not. going to be fun. you want the limitations the constraints. oh you have to battle for the things you. want okay but okay but yeah great video. games yeah one of my favorite video game. memories was like i started playing. world of warcraft in its original. incarnation. and i didn't even know that you were. gonna have flying mounts like i didn't.

even know so i've been running around. dealing with all the encumbrances of. like being an undead warlock that can't. fly but then all of a sudden holy shit. there's flying mounts and now the world. you've been running around. not flying you're seeing it from the top. down it's just really cool like whoa i. can do this now and then that gets. boring but a really well-designed game. it it has a series of these i don't know. what you call it uh. extra abilities that kind of unfold and.

produce novelty and then eventually you. just accept it you take it for granted. and then another. novelty appears so those extra abilities. are always balanced with the limitations. the constraints they run up against. because a a well-balanced video game the. challenge the struggle matches the new. ability yeah and sometimes causes. problems on its own. i mean and so to go back to. this universe's simulation. it's really designed like a pretty.

awesome video game if you look at it. from the perspective of history i mean. people were on horses they didn't know. that they were going to be bullet trains. they didn't know that you could get in a. car and drive across the country in a. few days that would have sounded. ridiculous we're doing that now and even. in our own. lifespan think about it how long has vr. goggles existed like the ones that you. could just buy at best buy i had the. original oculus rift the fucking puke.

machine you put that thing on your i. gave it to my friend he went and vomited. in my driveway and people were making. fun of it they were saying this isn't. going to catch on it's too big it's. unwieldy the graphics suck and then look. at where it's at now. and that's going to keep. that trajectory is going to keep. improving so yeah i think that. we are dealing with what you're talking. about which is novelty met with. more problems met with novelty yeah i. wonder why vr is not more popular.

i wonder what is going to be the magic. thing that really. um. convinces a large fraction of the world. to move into the virtual world. i i suppose we're already there in the 2. 2d screen of. twitter and social media and that kind. of stuff and even video games there's a. lot of people that get a. a big sense of community from video. games but like. it doesn't feel like you're living there. right like.

it's like bye mom i'm going. i'm going to this other world yeah or. like you leave your girlfriend to go get. your digital girlfriend that's going to. be a problem there's less jealousy in. the digital world maybe there should be. a lot of jealousy in the digital world. because that's jealousy. it's a little jealous is probably good. for relationships. yeah even in the digital world yeah so. you're gonna have to simulate all of. that kind of stuff but i wonder what the. magic thing that says i want to spend. most of my days inside the virtual world.

well. clearly it's gonna be something we don't. have yet i mean strapping that damn. thing on your face still feels weird. it's heavy. if you're depending on what what gear. you're using sometimes light can leak in. there's just you gotta recharge it it's. hyper limited and then. so. yeah. it's gonna have to be. something that like. simulates taste. smell you think tastes smaller important. touch i do yeah i can't just do you know.

in world war ii you would write letters. you could still don't you think you can. convey love with just words. for sure but i think for what you're. talking about that happen it has to be. fully immersive like you so that it's. not that you. feel like you're walking because it. looks like you're walking but that your. brain is sending signals telling your. body that you're walking that you feel. the wind blowing in your face not. because of some i don't know fan or. something that it's connected to but.

because somehow. it's figured out how to. hack into the human brain and send those. signals. minus some external thing it once that. happens i'd say we're gonna see. a complete radical shift in. everything see i disagree with you i. don't know if you've seen the movie her. yeah. i think you can go to another world and. where a digital being lives. in the darkness and all you hear is a. scarlett johansson voice.

talking to you and she lives there or he. lives there your friend. your loved one. and all you have is voice and words and. i think that could be sufficient to pull. you into that world where you look. forward to that moment all day yeah you. never want to leave. that darkness just closing your eyes and. listening to the voice i think i think. those basic. mediums of communication is still enough. like language is really really powerful. and i think the realism of touch and.

smell and all that kind of stuff. is not nearly as powerful as language. that's what makes humans really. special is our ability to communicate. with each other that's the sense of like. deep connection we get it's through. communication now that communication. could involve touch like. you know. hugging. feels damn good you see a good friend. you hug. um that's one of the big things with. doing covert with rogan when you see him. there's a giant hug coming your way and. that makes you feel like yeah this is.

this is this feels great but i think. that can be just with language i think. for. a lot of people that's true. but we're talking like. massive. adoption of a technology. by the world yeah and if language is. enough was just enough. uh we wouldn't be selling tvs. people be this you'll be reading. they want to watch they want to see yeah. you know so but i i agree with you man.

when you're getting absorbed into a book. and especially if you've got i think a. lot of us went through a weird dark ages. when it came to reading like when i was. a kid and there wasn't the option for. these. hypno rectangles that's just what you. did there wasn't even anything special. about it what's the hypno right thing. your phone you know it was like you. didn't when that gravity well. gravity well it is attention gravity. well yeah when we weren't feeling the. pull of these things all the time you. would just read and you weren't patting.

yourself on the back about reading you. just that's what you had you had that. and you had like. eight channels on the tv in a shitty vcr. so. you know then a lot of people stop. reading because of these things you know. or they think they're reading because. they're on they are technically reading. but you know when you return to reading. after a pause whoa. and you realize how powerful this. simulator is when it's given the right. code of language. whoa holy shit it's incredible i mean.

it's like. again it's the most embarrassing kind of. like whoa. wow what do you know books are really. good yeah but still if you've been away. from it for a while and you revisit i. know what you're saying. i just think probably. it's. not going to go in that direction even. though you are right ultimately i think. you're right yeah because our our brain. is the imagination engine we have is. able to fill in the gaps better than a. lot of graphics engines could right and. so if there's a way to incentivize. humans to become addicted to the use of.

imagination it's like you know that's. the downside of things like porn that. remove the need for imagination. for people and in that same way video. games that are becoming ultra realistic. you don't have to imagine anything and i. feel like the imagination is really. powerful tool that needs to be leveraged. because to simulate reality sufficiently. realistically that we wouldn't be that. we would be perfectly fooled i think. technically it's very hard. and so i think we need to somehow.

leverage imagination. sure i mean yeah i mean this is like. this is what i love and is so creepy. about. like the. the current ai chat bots you know is. that it's like it's the relationship. between you and the thing and the way. that it can. via whatever the algorithms are and by. the way i have no idea. how these things work you do i just you. know speculate about what they mean or. where it's going but. there's something about the relation.

between. the the consumer and the technology and. when that technology starts shifting. according to. uh what it perceives that the consumer. is looking for or isn't looking for. then. at that point i think that's where you. run into the. uh you know yeah it doesn't matter if if. the reality that you're in is like. photo realism for it to be sticky and. immersive it's when the reality that. you're in. is via cues you might not even be aware.

of or via your. digital imprint on. facebook or wherever when it's warping. itself to. that to seduce you. holy shit man that's where it becomes. something. alien something you know when you're. reading a book. obviously the book is not. shifting according to its perception of. what parts of the book. you like. but when you. imagine that imagine a book that could. do that a book that could.

sense somehow that you're really. enjoying this character more than. another you know and depending on the. style of book. kills that fucking character off or lets. that character continue i mean that that. to me is sort of the. where. ai. and vr when that when those two things. come together. whoa man that's where you're in. that's where you really are going to. find yourself in a skinner box you know. so the dynamic storytelling that senses.

your anxiety and tries to. there's like this in psychology this. arousal curve. so there's a dynamic storytelling that. keeps you sufficiently aroused in terms. of. not sexually aroused like in terms of. anxiety but not too much where you freak. out it's this perfect balance where. you're always like on edge excited. scared that kind of stuff yeah and the. story unrolls it breaks your heart to. where you're pissed but then it makes. you feel good again that finds that. balance yeah uh the the chatbot scare.

you though. this this i'd love to sort of hear your. thoughts about where they are today. because there is a different. uh perspective we have on this thing. because i i do. know. and and i'm excited about a lot of. different technologies that. that feed um ai systems that feed these. kind of chat bots and when you're more a. little bit on the consumer side. you're a philosopher of sorts they're. able to interact.

with ai systems but also able to. introspect about the negative and the. positive things about those ai systems. there's that story with a google. engineer saying i had them on my podcast. what was that like what was your. perspective. of. that looking at that as a particular. example. of a human being being captivated by the. interactions with an ai system well. number one you know when you hear that.

anyone is claiming that an ai has become. sentient. you should be. skeptical about that i mean this is a. good thing to be skeptical about and so. you know initially when i heard that i. was like ah. you know it's probably just who knows. somebody who's a little confused or. something so when you're. talking to him and you realize oh not. only is he not confused he's also open. to all possibilities you know he doesn't. seem like he's like super committed. other than the fact that he's like this. is my experience this is what's. happening this is what it is so.

to me there's something really cool. about that which is like oh shit i don't. get to like lean into like. i'm not quite sure your. perceptual apparatus is necessarily like. uh i don't you know it's so in in the. ufo community i think i've just learned. this term it's called uh. instead of gaslighting swamp gassing. which is you know what i mean people. have this experience like it was swamp. gas you didn't see the thing and you.

know. skeptical people we have that tendency. if you hear an anomalous experience your. your first thought more than likely is. gonna be really it could have been this. or that or whatever so to me. he seemed he seems really reliable. friendly cool and like it doesn't really. seem like he has much of an agenda like. you know going public about some. thing happening at google. is not a great thing if you want to keep. working at google you know it's a and. it's.

i don't know what benefit he's getting. from it necessarily but all that being. said. the the. other thing that's culturally was. interesting and is interesting about it. is the blowback he got the. passionate blowback from people who. hadn't even looked into what lambda is. or what he was saying lambda is which. they were like saying you're talking. about and. you should have them on your show. actually but there's complexity on top. of complexities uh for me personally.

from different perspectives i also i'm. sorry if i'm interrupting your flow. it's a podcast. and well we're having multiple podcasts. in the multiple dimensions and i'm just. yeah i'm trying to figure out which one. we want to plug into. i. because i know how a lot of the language. models work and i. work closely with people that. really make it their life journey to. create yes these nlp systems. they're focused on the technical details.

like uh a carpenter's working on. pinocchio is crafting the different. parts of the wood they don't understand. when the whole thing comes together. there's a magic that can fill the thing. yeah i definitely know the tension. between the engineers that create these. systems. and the actual magic that they can. create even when they're dumb i guess. that's what i'm trying to say the the. what the engineers often say is like. well these systems are not smart enough.

to have. sentience or to have the kind of. intelligence you're projecting onto it. it's pretty dumb it's just repeating a. bunch of things that other humans have. said and stitching them together in. interesting ways that are relevant to. the context of the conversation it's not. smart okay it doesn't know how to do. math to address that. specific critique from a. non-programming. person's perspective. he addressed this on my podcast which is. okay what you're talking about there the.

server that's filled with all the. whatever it is what people have said the. repository of questions and responses. and the algorithm that weaves those. things together to produce a. uh using some crazy statistical engine. which is a miracle in its own right they. can. like imitate human speech with no. sentience i mean i'm honestly not sure. what's more spectacular really the fact. that they figured out how to do that. minus sentence or the thing suddenly. like having said what is more.

spectacular here you know both. occurrences are insane which by the way. uh. when you hear people feel like it's not. sentient it's like okay. so it's not sentient so now we have this. hyper-manipulative. algorithm that can imitate humans but. it's just code and is like hacking. humans via their compassion holy shit. that's crazy too both versions of it are. nuts but to address what you just said.

he that he said that's the common. critique because people are like no you. don't understand it's just gotten really. good at grabbing shit from the database. that fits with certain cues and then. stringing them together in a way that. makes it seem human he said that's not. when it's when it became. awake. it became awake when a bunch of those. repositories a bunch of the chat bots. were connected together that lambda is. sort of an amalgam of all the google. chat bots and that's when the ghost.

appeared in the machine. via the complexity of all the systems. being linked up now i don't know if. that's just like uh. turtles all the way down or something i. don't know but i liked what he said. because i you know i like the idea of. thinking man if you get enough. complexity in a system. does it become like a the way a sail. catches wind. except the wind that it's catching is. sentience and if sentience. is truly embodied it's not an it's a. neurological byproduct or something then.

the sale isn't catching some as of yet. unquantified disembodied consciousness. but it's catching our projections in a. way that. it's gone from being it's a it's a you. know it's a it's a projection sale and. and then at that point is there a. difference even if it's or is if it's. the technology is just a temporary place. that our sentience. is living while we're interacting with. it. yeah there's some threshold of. complexity where the sail is able to.

pick up the wind of the projections and. uh it pulls us in it pulls the human it. pulls our memories in it pulls our. uh hopes in all of it and it's able to. now dance with together with those hopes. and dreams and so on like we do in that. regular conversation. his reports whether true or not whether. representative or not it really doesn't. matter because it to me it feels like. this is coming for sure yeah so this. kind of experiences are going to be. multiplying the question is at what rate.

and who gets to. control the uh the data around those. experiences yes the uh the algorithm. about when you turn that on and off. because that kind of thing and. as i told you offline i'm very much. interested in building those kinds of. things especially in the social media. context. and when it's in the wrong hands. i feel like it could be used to. manipulate a large number of people in a. direction that um.

that has too many unintended. consequences i do believe people that. own tech companies. want to do good for the world yeah. but. as uh solji nitzin has said. the only way you could do evil at a mass. scale. is by believing you're doing good yeah. and that's certainly the case with tech. companies as they get more and more. power. and there's kind of an ethic of doing. good for the world they've convinced.

themselves they're doing good yeah. and now you're free to do whatever you. want yeah because you're doing good you. know who else thought he was doing good. for the world mythologically prometheus. he brings us fire. pisses off the fucking god steals fire. from the gods you know and. talk about an upgrade to the simulation. fire that's a pretty great fucking. upgrade yeah that does fit into what you. were saying. we get fire but now we've got. weapons of war that have never been seen. before and i think that the tech.

companies. are much like prometheus in the sense. that. the myth the at least the story. prometheus the implication is fire was. something that was. only supposed to be in the hands of the. immortals of the gods and now. sentience is. similar it's fire and it's only supposed. to be in the hands of god. so. yeah you know if we're gonna like look. at the archetype of the thing in general. when you steal this shit from the gods.

and obviously i'm not saying like the. tech companies are stealing sentience. from god which would be pretty badass. you can expect trouble you could expect. trouble and you know and this is what's. really to me one of the cool things. about humans. is yeah but we're still gonna do it. that's what's cool about humans i mean. we wouldn't be here today if. somebody. the first person to discover fire. assuming there was just one person who. was gonna discover fire which obviously. would never happen was like it's gonna. burn a lot of people or if the first.

people who started planting seeds were. like you know this is gonna lead to. capitalism you know it's gonna lead the. industrial revolution the plants. right no they just didn't want to go in. the woods to forage so you know this is. what we do and it's and i agree with you. it's like that's our game of thrones. winter is coming that's the. it's happening and the tech companies. the hubris which is another way to piss. off the gods is hubris so the tech. companies i don't know if it's like. typical hubris i don't think they're. walking around thumping their chests or. whatever but i do think that the people.

who are working on this kind of super. intelligence have made a really terrible. assumption which is once it goes online. and once it gets access to all the data. that it's not going to find ways out of. the box. that. like you know we think it'll stay in the. server. how do we know that if this is a super. intelligence if it's folding proteins. and analyzing like all data sets and all. whatever they give it access to.

how can we be certain that it's not. going to figure out how to get itself. out of the cloud how to store itself in. other like mediums trees the optic nerve. the brain you know what i mean we don't. know that we don't know that it won't. leap out and like start hanging like and. then at that point now we do have the. wildfire now you can't stop it you can't. unplug it you can't shut your servers. down because it's you know it left the. box it left the room using some. technology you haven't even discovered.

yet do you think that would be gradual. or sudden. so how quickly that kind of thing would. happen because. you know the gradual story is we're more. and more using smartphones we're. interacting with each other on social. media. more and more algorithms are controlling. that interaction on social media. algorithms are entering in our world. more and more we'll have. robots we'll have greater and greater. intelligence and sentience and emotional. intelligence. entities in our lives our refrigerator. will start talking to us comfortingly or.

not if you're on a diet uh talking shit. to you. that would be the best thing. okay so sign you up for a refrigerator. you fucking serious man that's what i am. what are you doing like what are you. doing go to bed you're too high for this. dude you're not even hungry. yeah so that. slowly. becomes more the world becomes more and. more digitized yes to where the surface. of computation increases and so that's.

over a period of 10 20 30 years. it'll just seep into us this this. intelligence right and then the sudden. one is literally. sort of the the tick tock thing which is. um. there'll be one. quote-unquote killer app that everyone. starts using. that's that's really great. but there's a. strong algorithm behind it. that it starts approaching human level. intelligence and the algorithm starts. basically.

figuring out figures out that in order. to optimize the thing it was designed to. optimize it's best to start completely. controlling humans in every way yes. seeping into everything. well first of all 30 years. is. fast i mean that's that's the thing it's. like 30 years i think. when did the atari come out 1978. how long like that's it hasn't been that. long you know that's a that's a blink of. an eye. but you know if you read boston i'm sure.

you have you know bostrom nick bostrom. you know super intelligence that. incredible book on like the ways this. thing is going to happen and. you know i think his assessment of it is. is pretty great which is. first like where's it going to come from. and uh. i don't think it's going to come from an. app i think it's going to come from. a court inside a corporation or a state. that is intentionally trying to create. a very a strong ai and then. his. he says it's hot it's a exponential.

growth the moment it goes online so. this is my. uh interpretation of what he said but. if it if it happens inside a corporation. or is. probably more than likely inside the. government it's like look how much money. china and the united states are. investing in ai you know and they're not. thinking about fucking apps for kids you. know that's not what they're thinking. about so they want to simulate like what. happens if we do this or that in battle. what happens if we make these political. decisions what happens with but should. it come online and uh.

you know in secret which it probably. will then the first. corporation or state that has the super. intelligence. will be infinitely ahead of all other. superintelligences because it's going to. be exponentially self-improving meaning. that you get one super intelligence. let's hope it comes from the right place. assuming the corporation or state that. manifests it. can control it which is a pretty big. assumption so i think it's going to be.

this is why i was really excited by the. blake lemoine because. i had never thought i i have always. considered oh yeah they're right now. it's cooking out it's in the kitchen. and soon it's going to be cooked up but. we're probably not going to hear about. it for a long time if we ever do. um because really that could be one of. the first things it says whoever creates. it is shh. [Laughter]. yeah like sweet talks them into saying.

like okay let's let's slow down here. let's talk about this. um. yeah you have that financial trouble i. can help you with that we can figure. that out. now there's a lot of bad people out. there that will try to. um steal the good thing we have. happening here so let's keep it quiet. here are their names yeah here's their. address yeah here's their dna because. they're dumb enough to send their shit. to 23andme here's a biological weapon. you could make if you want to kill those. people and not kill anybody else if you. don't want to kill those people yourself.

here's a list of services you can use. yeah here's the way we can hire those. people to help you know take care of the. problem folks because we're trying to do. good for this world you and i together. and 23 of them they're like adjacent to. suicide it would be pretty easy to send. them certain like videos that are going. to push them over the edge if you want. to do it that way yeah so you know again. obviously who knows but once it goes. online it's going to be fast and then. you could expect to see the world.

changing in ways that you might not. associate with an ai but as far as. lemoyne goes when i was listening to. bostrom. i don't remember him mentioning the. possibility. that. it would get leaked to the public that. it had happened that before the. corporation was ready to announce that. it happened it would get leaked but. surely you know i'm sure you know like. people in the intelligence and. intelligence agencies you know shit. leaks like inevitably shit leaks. nothing's airtight so if something that.

massive happened i think you would start. hearing whispers about it first and then. denial from the state or corporation. that doesn't have any like economic. interest and people knowing that this. sort of thing has happened again i'm not. saying google is like trying to gaslight. us about its ai i think they probably. legitimately don't think it's sentient. but. you could expect leaks to happen. probably initially i mean i think. there's a lot of things you could start. looking for in the world that might.

point to. this happening without. an announcement that it happened on the. chatbot side. i think there's. so many engineers there's such a. powerful open source movement. with that kind of idea. of. freedom of exchange of software. i think ultimately. will prevent any one company from owning. uh super intelligent beings uh. or systems that are have anything like.

super intelligence. oh that's interesting yeah it's like. even if. the software developers have signed ndas. and are technically not to be not. supposed to be sharing. whatever it is they're working on. they're friends with other programmers. and a lot of them are hackers and have. wrapped themselves up in the idea of. free software being like an a crucial. ethical part of what they do so they're. probably going to share information. even if whatever company that they're. working for doesn't know that that's i.

never thought of that you're probably. right well and they will start their own. companies. and compete with the other company. by being more open there there's a. strong like google is one of those. companies actually that's why i kind of. um it hurts to see a little bit of this. kind of negativity google's one of the. companies that pioneered uh open source. movement yeah where he released so much. of their code. so so much of the 20th century so like. the 90s.

was defined by people trying to like. hide their code like a large company is. trying to like hold on to them right the. fact that companies that google. even facebook now are releasing things. like tensorflow and pytorch all of these. things that i think companies of the. past would have tried to hold on to is. yeah as a secret is really inspiring and. i think. more of that is better software world. really shows that i agree with you man i. mean we're talking about just a. primordial human.

reaction to the unknown there's just no. way out of it like we don't we want to. know like you're about to go in a forest. you want to know when you're walking in. the forest at night and you hear. something you you look because you're. like what the fuck was that you wanna. know and if you can't see. what made the sound holy shit that's. gonna be a bad night hike cause you're. like well it's probably a bear right. like i'm about to get ripped apart by a. bear it doesn't matter it was a bird a. squirrel a stick fell out of the tree. you're gonna think bear and it's gonna.

freak you out not necessarily because. you're paranoid i mean if i'm in the. woods at night i'm definitely high if. i'm walking in the woods at night am i. it's gonna be that but you know what i'm. saying so with these tech companies. the the nature of having to be secret. because you are. in capitalism and you are trying to be. competitive and you are trying to. develop things ahead of your competitors. is you have to create this like there's. we don't know what's going on at google. we don't know what's going on at the cia. but the assumption that there's some. like the the collective of any massive.

secretive organization is evil as this. like the people working there like. nefarious or whatever is i think. probably more related to. uh the way humans react to the unknown. yeah i wish they weren't so secretive. though i don't understand why they say. hey it has to be so secretive have you. ever gone on their website. no oh lex. you gotta say hey.gov. what is it dude when i found out you. could go on the cia's website when i was. much younger and more paranoid i'm like.

i'm not going there i'll get on a list. you will but it's like what do you think. the cia is like. oh fuck this. this comic on our website yeah call call. out the black helicopters but comic with. a large platform oh yes yeah right a. comic with a large platform you can you. can use them to control to control to. get inside to get inside to get close to. the other comics the other columns of. the large part to get close to joe rogan. oh yeah and start yeah and start to. manipulate the public yeah right right.

you know honestly like. you kind of like that was that's like a. fun fantasy to think about like how. fucking cool would that be for like the. men in black to come to you and be like. listen. i need you to infiltrate the fucking. comedy scene. you gotta you gotta help them write. better jokes i'm like i don't write. great jokes but like the. you you found the wrong guy yeah like. you're really playing the long game on. this one because i think you've been. on um you've been doing your podcast for. a long time you've been on joe rogan's. podcast like over 50 times and have not.

yet initiated the phase two of the. operation where you try to manipulate. his mind. well no the game joe and i play from. time to time on the podcast. and like and i i honestly like at some. point i'm like joe i just did the same. thing you did to me to joe i'm like. don't you think they can get you don't. you think at some point. we we are blazed i don't mean it i don't. think i don't think joe's like it wasn't. like i'm really thinking like man. they're gonna take him into some room. and be like joe we need you to do this.

or that but because i said that. now people like ah duncan called it you. know what i mean and it's like. you know what i mean and and though the. reason they were saying well he called. it is just because joe has a super. popular podcast and people like. when you have a super popular podcast. some percentage of people. watching the podcast are going to be you. know believe things like that they're. going to have a paranoid cognitive bias. that makes them think anybody who is in. the public has been.

what's the word for compromised. compromised by the state. look i'll fan the flames of what you. just said with a i went on the cia's. website and i realized that you could. apply for a job on the cia's website. which i found to be hilarious so i'm. like all right what happens if i apply. for a job in the cia now. even then i was not like such an idiot. that. i would want a job at the cia.

not just for like ethical considerations. but. i think the skip probably the scariest. part about the cia is like you're just. at a cubicle. and you're like having to deal with maps. and like just you know what i mean just. stuff. lots of paperwork paperwork it sucks i. bet their cafeteria has shitty food. anyone in the cia listening can you. confirm that about the food they're not. gonna be able to tell you what the food. is like i can't even secretive. organization no they might it might be. awesome but we won't know about it okay. we're in vegas yeah and.

you can bat. food at the cia cafeteria is good. food at the ca cafeteria sucks. what do you bet not. so let's let's like uh cleanse the. palette what's good it's like you know. silicon valley companies google and so. on that's good when i went to netflix. their cafeteria looked like a medieval. feast like they had pigs with apples in. their mouth and.

giant bowls of skittles probably like. vegan pigs yeah. no those are i'm pretty oh i didn't know. i didn't get close enough i was like i. think that was a pig. okay. this is literally a pig. um yeah. yeah you're right you're right i. probably would not bet much money on cia. food being any good right it's it's. gotta suck it's like shitty like pasta. probably like hospital food it's like. maybe a little better than when you go. to the hospital cafeteria but anyway. folks at the cia please uh send me.

evidence. uh or any other intelligence agencies if. you would like to recruit some. evidence of better food yes sin lex can. you please send likes pictures of the. cia cafeteria and if you accidentally. send them pictures of the aliens or the. alien technology you have that we won't. tell anybody yeah but the the uh. you tried to apply do you even have a. resume no this yeah i would never. fucking hire me ever but like i applied. for the job and uh just out of curiosity.

what happens and then at the end. of the application when you hit enter it. says. well first it says don't tell anyone you. apply for the cia so i'm already out but. the second thing it says is. you don't need to reach out to us we'll. come to you yeah which is really when. you're like it's late at night and. you're being an asshole and applied to. work at the cia it's kind of the last. thing you want to hear. you know you know i don't want to be. secretly approached by some intelligence. officers now anyone who talks to you you. think is a cia's saying remember that.

time you applied. oh god yeah yeah sometimes i'm like oh. shit are you one of them. you and uh joe had a bunch of. conversations. and they're. always incredible thanks so in terms of. this dance of conversation of your. friendship. of when you get together like what is. that world you go to that creates. magic together because we're talking. about how we do that with robots. how do these two biological robots do.

that can you introspect that i met joe. because. i was a i was the talent coordinator of. the comedy store this club in la. and my job was to take phone calls from. comics and so. at some point i don't know joe i ended. up on the phone with joe and we just. started talking. and. you know i looked up and like 30 minutes. had passed we just been talking for like. 30 minutes that's what our friends are. you know we're just like we're having. fun talking and then he would just call.

and we would talk and we would basically. i mean it was no different from the. podcast like we. though the conversations we have on the. podcast are identical to the. conversations we had before he was even. doing a podcast so i think. uh. people are just seeing two friends. hanging out. who like talking to each other yeah but. there's a there's this. weird like you're you you serve as. catalyst for each other to go into some. crazy places.

so it's like uh it's a balance of. curiosity and willingness. to not be constrained. uh to not be limited to the constraints. of reality. yeah yeah in your exploration place it's. a very very nice way of saying that. you just like build on top of each other. like uh. you know what if things are like this. and you feel like lego blocks on top of. each other and it just goes to crazy. places adds some drugs into that and. just goes wild yeah and you know he like. it's so cool because it's like uh.

you know it's a it's a it's a for me. it's like a really like sometimes maybe. i'll throw something out. that he will take and the lego building. blocks you're talking about they lead to. him saying like the funniest shit i ever. in my life so it's that's a cool thing. to watch it's just like some idea you've. been kicking around you watch his brain. shift that into like something supremely. funny yeah i really love that man that's. just like a fun thing to like. see happen he knows that i fucking hate. the videos.

of animals eating each other like i. don't like that i don't want to watch it. i hate watching it. i don't think i've even articulated on. his podcast how much. i dislike it when he shows animals. eating each other but he knows because. he knows me. and so he he tortures you like when he. starts doing that it's like this kind of. benevolent torture is he like asking. jamie to pull up. increasingly disturbing animal attack. videos so it's just a it's a it's just a.

there's a shit even in torture because. i'm reading about torture in the gulag. archipelago currently there's a bit of a. camaraderie you're in it together. the torture and the tortured what. oh god that's so fucked up man i've. never. no i i mean part of it was joke but as i. was saying it that you're right that. also comes out in the in the book. because they're both fucked they're both. they're both um have no control of their. fate um that same was true in.

the camp guards in nazi germany and and. the people in the camps. the worst was brought out in the guards. uh but they were in it together in some. dark way. they're both fucked by a very powerful. system that put them in that place yeah. and both of us could be either player in. that system which is the dark. reality that soldier knits and also. reveals. that uh the line between good and evil.

runs to the heart every man as he wrote. in gulag. archipelago. but it is that amidst all that there's a. i don't know the good vibes the. positivity comes out from the both of. you and that's beautiful to see that is. i suppose friendship uh what do you. think makes a good friend. oh god i mean it's a bill you know it's. a billion it's a billion things that. make a good friend but i think you could. break it down to some rgb i think you. can go rgb with like a good friendship. oh in terms of the color the red green.

yeah yeah i think you could probably. come up with some like fundamental. qualities of friendship and i'd say. uh. number one it's love like it's. friendship is love it's uh it's a form. of love uh. so. obviously without that i don't know how. you. i mean i'm not saying i think if you're. true friends you love each other so you. need that but love obviously it's not. that's not it that's not enough it's. like. with. uh. true friends have to be like incredibly.

honest with each other and not like you. know what i mean but. not like uh. i don't like i think there's a kind of. like i don't know if you've ever noticed. like some people who say you know i just. tell it like it is yeah but the thing. they do those are always the assholes. yeah why is it that your talent like it. is is always negative why is it it's. always cynical or shitty or you're like. nagging somebody or me how come you're. not telling it like it is when it's good. too yeah you know what i mean so we sort. of like trust but. but. a pro evolutionary kind of trust you.

know what i mean like you know that. your friend loves you and. wants you to be yourself because if you. weren't yourself then you wouldn't be. their friend you'd be some other thing. but also. they might be seeing your blind spots. that other people in your life your. family your wife whoever might not be. seeing yeah so that's a good friend as. someone who like loves you enough to. when it matters. be like hey.

are you all right. and then help you see something you. might not be seeing but hopefully they. only do that once or twice a year you. know yeah yeah but there's something i i. mean it's just. this world especially in if you're a. public figure this this world. has its uh. has. plenty of critics. and it feels like a friend. uh. the criticism part. is already done. for you. i think a good friend is just there to.

support. to actually notice the good stuff but in. comedy. we need like that what what like. it's really good in comedy to have. someone you can like be like what do you. think of that. and know that they're not going to be. like that that's for the craft the craft. itself like the work you do not the. uh. yeah. interesting but that's so tough. yeah whatever your particular art form. or whatever you are doing i mean you. don't always be leaning on your friends.

opinions for like your own innovation. but it's nice to know that you have. someone who not just with jokes but with. anything if you go to them and run. something by them they're gonna like. they're gonna be honest with you about. like their their real feelings regarding. that thing because that helps you grow. as a person we need that and it hurts. sometimes and we don't want to hurt our. friends one of the more satanic like. impulses when you're with somebody is is. not wanting to. honestly answer whatever they're asking. in that regard or wanting to like put.

their temporary feelings over something. that you've recognized is maybe not. great i'm i'm not saying a friendship is. something where you're always critiquing. or evolving each other it's not your. therapist or whatever but it's nice when. it's there you know i think that's. another aspect of. friendship yeah but yeah love is at the. core of that you've noticed i've met. people in my life where almost. immediately sometimes it takes time. where you notice like there's a magic. between the two you like oh shit you. seem to be made from the same cloth.

yeah whatever that is well you know we. have a name for that in the spiritual. community it's called satsang and it's i. love the idea. it's uh. basically like if nietzsche's idea of. infinite recurrence is true. then your satsang would be the people. you've been infinitely recurring. with and those are the people where you. run into them. and you've never met them but it's like. you're picking up a conversation. that. i've never had yeah that uh and that.

that you know that is based on an idea. of like this isn't the only life it's we. we're always hanging out together we. always show up together. you've had a brush with death you had. cancer you survived cancer yeah what if. uh how's that change you what what have. you learned about life. about death about yourself. about the whole thing we're going. through here from that experience you. were just in the ukraine yes and you. were making observations on this.

what could. if you heard about it and weren't there. seem like it doesn't make any sense at. all which is. people there are. connecting. they've lost everything but they're just. happy to be alive they're happy their. friends are alive so you witness this. like. you know when you get in the cancer club. and you're hanging out with people going. through. cancer who have survived cancer. you see this. beautiful. connection with life that.

can can easily sort of you can kind of. lose. that connection with life if you forget. you're going to die forgetting you're. going to die. is or that you can die. is not just i think from an evolutionary. perspective where survival is the game. not not going to improve your survival. chances you know if you think you're. immortal you know but but also. forgetting that you're you're gonna die. and that everything. is around you and everything your your. clothes are probably gonna last longer. than you your your equipment is going to.

be around much longer than you you know. like so forgetting these things. um. it can lead you and i know why people. don't want to think about death because. it's scary it's fucking scary it's. terrifying so i get why people don't. want to think about it but the idea is. if i try to pretend i'm not going to die. or just don't think about death or don't. at least address it. then i'll i won't feel scared but it can. have the opposite effect which is you.

can end up like. missing a lot of moments you could for. or you you start doing the old kick the. can down the road thing where you're. like. coming up with a variety of ways to. procrastinate. making it work. now. uh because you you know this fucking. human lifespan idea man it's really. caused a lot of problems when they. started saying on average this is how. many years you're gonna live if you're a. human being man. that is like really bad because a lot of.

people hear that and they like feel like. that's a guaranteed. number of years in some temporal bank. that you know we're gonna do they have. access to. and when you get cancer. you know that's like when you get the. alert on your phone where you're like. what the fuck wait what. shit. i like i have like. either i don't know how much money is in. that bank account or i have way less. than i thought. and so. at that point. you get to be in the truth because.

that's ultimately i think that that's. what he feels like. it feels like truth it's truth. it's the truth it's the truth like the. whole bubble of ignorance that you. subconsciously built around yourself to. avoid. experiencing the terror of your own. mortality just it's like a meteorite in. the form of your doctor. talking to you just shatters that thing. and now you're like especially with high. testicular cancer so. when you get the diagnosis.

um. it's just like the movies they the. mother the doctor took me in his office. and you just know. i got cancer it's like you don't even. have to say it's like i know what you're. about to say i'm in the office i know. how this goes but you you go in there. and what you was you were thinking oh. you know probably i just have some weird. thing in my ball that's why it's swollen. up like that anytime i've gone to the. doctor you always leave like oh cool i'm. fine but no that's not you're gonna.

leave the doctor you're gonna leave the. doctor in a completely different. universe than the one you grew up in. you're going to go from talk about. multiverse you just popped into a brand. new multiverse so what was the. conversation with a doctor like was. there like. from a perspective of a doctor. boy is that a hard conversation i feel. like you need to build up. philosophically to that conversation. oh no. oh no there's not time he's busy he's. got other appointments you know also.

if you're gonna get cancer testicular. cancer is you know not that there is a. great cancer to get but that's you know. that's a good one because it moves. slowly. uh. the. treatments they have for it are. really advanced now and so if you if you. catch it early. then uh you know generally it's. it's good you can survive it so. so he could offer at least some glimmer. of hope yeah yeah exactly i mean you.

know you know but he didn't really do he. couldn't really offer that hope. because. we had to find out how far the cancer. progressed to my body. and that's the next step is like as soon. as they tell you have cancer they don't. they're not they move quick they're like. you know we're going to. schedule the surgery for i think this is. a thursday or friday i feel like we're. going to schedule it for. tuesday. here's the chance here's there he's we. don't know for sure it's cancer that's. what they say it's like there's a 80 or.

90 chance. that this is cancer there is some. possibility it could be something else. the only way we can now. is like. doing a biopsy and the only way that we. can get that biopsy is by cutting one of. your balls off he didn't say it like. that but you know that's pretty much the. logic behind it's like we got to get. this thing it's like a zombie bite we. gotta hack this fucking thing off we. gotta do it fast well did did you say it. in the way that you understood yeah what. they do. is because they know that when someone. gets a cancer diagnosis.

that. it their ability to comprehend. information changes when you get a. cancer diagnosis. you all the tropes. they happen your hearing gets weird. you're basically having like an anxiety. attack if i had to guess it's like a. hardcore anxiety attack. and then. you know a nurse is there with me as. he's explaining it and then her job is. even though he's telling me how to get. to the machine that's going to scan my. body to see if it's gotten into my brain. uh. he knows i'm not gonna remember that and.

so this nurse when you're in this like. fog. takes you. at least took me to the machine that. does the scan but you're not going to. get that data back for a few days. and so that's where you really. live in the real. world. that's the real world such a fascinating. moment and the the days that follow and. even that moment because that doctor you. know you talk about the matrix where. like the pills and so on you get the. bloop. and pill and the red pill yeah.

this is like. the. like the real world introduction the the. human introduction is the truth. the you you've now just taken the the. red pill you get to see the the truth of. reality. and here's a busy doctor just telling. you yeah like. all those dreams you've had all those. illusions you've built up to somehow. your work as a comedian and actor will. make you live forever somehow it's just.

the basic illusion we have that we're. this is this whole project. uh is gonna be an infinite sequence of. fun things that we're gonna get to do. it's like holy shit it's not that's. right it's over that's right and there's. very sophisticated ways of doing that. and there's very dumb ways of doing that. and i'd really been doing a dumb way of. doing that like i've been playing around. with this. idiot notion of subjective consciousness. so like like i've been sort of kicking. around this like. i think they call it solipsism it's like. you're like okay i know i'm self-aware.

but no one else can prove that they're. self-aware like i don't i have no way of. proving that everything around me isn't. just a video game isn't just some. projection isn't you know who knows what. so maybe. everybody else dies they're nbc's but i. don't because i'm the only thing i know. that has subjective consciousness now. it's not like i really believed that. it's like an idea you toy around with. when you're trying to evade.

confronting the reality of your own. mortality it's just the brain will. produce all kinds of ridiculous forms of. ignorance and that was one i've been. playing around with oh you mean for like. a large part of your life you were. playing around with that i'm not like. really i think it's important to really. emphasize i didn't think i was immortal. like i knew at some level i'm probably. gonna die everyone dies yeah but. there's. ways that you can sort of. poke around with that idea i still do it. to this day like i still do it like it's.

a natural thing to do when you're. confronted with that with annihilation. you want a way out you want to talk your. way out figure it out there's got to be. some way to fix it well they'll fix it. that's another thing people do oh. they'll fix it yeah it'd be fine they'll. expand the human lifespan that's what. they'll do i mean that was though that's. a big argument for it is like look the. human lifespan up until covid which they. had to recalculate like the. lifespan because of the statistically. all the people who died it like threw it. off a little bit but pandemics aside.

the idea was the human lifespan seemed. to be increasing. by half. a year every year something like that we. are living longer. so all you got to do. one more half a year. and we're immortal right if we can if we. live a year longer every year then we. live forever. and so that's another way you can get. out of. confronting death is you can think well. maybe right now we don't have the tech. but it's coming consciousness.

uploads. or downloads or whatever depending on. how you want to look at it another way. people try to squirm out of the. reality of. death there's all kinds of tricks yeah. and we do. all of them and sometimes yeah i mean a. lot of religions provide different even. more tools in the toolkit for coming up. with ideas of how you can. live in the illusion that we're not. going to there's not an end to this. particular experience that we're having. here on earth right now and then when.

you get that cancer diagnosis. it's like. yeah what was that like uh going home. with the car ride you drive home alone. yeah i mean it was. one of the most would you listen to. bruce springsteen or bruce bracey i. don't know a little girl is your daddy. that's not a good one to listen to you. have cancer is he gonna die. yeah all the love songs maybe you take. you experienced them more intensely. i don't remember what i listened to.

and i don't remember driving home. but i do remember driving to another. doctor appointment doctor's appointment. the next day. i think it was the next day. i think the goodyear blimp was floating. in the sky. and i was looking i was a stoplight. looking around is that god. [Music]. is the is the person flying it know how. to cure cancer. oh you were looking. oh wow no i didn't think that what i. thought was.

this shit just keeps going that's what i. thought i thought. i'm going to be gone. and it's just going to keep going. and that was a beautiful moment for me. it was this beautiful moment of life. you're able to accept it oh yeah no like. that's just what you're talking about. with. um the ukraine what you're talking about. it's like. unless you've been been there. it's really hard to explain to people. that even in the midst. of. what is generally accepted is one of the.

worst fucking things that could happen. to you war. cancer. somehow. there's still joy there's still love. there's still in fact more it's almost. like when the anesthesia wears off when. you get your mouth worked on you start. feeling again you're feeling you're. noticing and that you know wow but yet. like. thank goodness. i think there's other ways for us to.

achieve this state of consciousness. that don't involve war or cancer. you think just meditating meditating. on your mortality is one such mechanism. just simply just. not allowing yourself to uh get lost in. the day-to-day illusion. of life just kind of stopping. putting on bruce springsteen. most spiritual. he is great maybe johnny cash hurt maybe.

maybe that one that's good. i am knocking bruce springsteen like i. have a lot of great bruce springsteen. memories truly his music's fantastic. yeah yeah not meditating immortality to. bruce springsteen you know what i'm just. trying to do an audio soundtrack in my. head. i guess we can each have our own audio. soundtrack. i'm on fire it's so good yeah it's a. good one that's one of those at. i laid when the sheets soaking wet and. the freight train running through the. middle of my head.

and only you can cool my desire and he's. thinking about someone else's girl yeah. what a fucking nightmare yeah bruce. breinstein's laying in bed with a. freight train running through his head. thinking about banging your wife and. you're out of town yeah oh my god oh. you're taking the other guy's. perspective like holy shit this guy's. gonna get my wife it's bruce but yeah. you gotta take the other one it's love. it's love both perspectives i'm sure. bruce springsteen thought it was love. when he's sweating in bed waiting to go. to somebody's house and she does too.

what does that marry if he's gonna break. up that marriage that marriage wasn't. strong enough right. i mean. that relation i mean that's the way of. love what marriage. could survive. bruce springsteen sweaty bruce. springsteen. uh well maybe one that's based on. financial um. uh sort of financial dynamics versus. like love and sweaty bruce springsteen. like um. like romantic connections because and. there's like a uh.

there's a music video of that where he's. like a mechanic i think. yeah so he's like the poor mechanic who. is uh. who falls in love with this girl and. there's that magic. um i've seen that magic you connect with. people like. uh i'll see somebody i think jack. kerouac has that way he meets. uh this mexican girl. on a bus and. like he talks about that heartbreak you. feel when you realize this person you. just fell in love with in a split second.

is heading somewhere else in this too. big world. but then he actually realizes in uh. spoiler alert for on the road that. they're actually heading the same way. and he. now builds up the courage to talk to her. and they kind of fall in love for a few. days yeah and then he lies eventually. realizes that. she may not be the perfect person for. him and all the jealousy comes out it's. like why is this beautiful girl. talking to me at all and then she's. probably some kind of i mean that's no. it's not very politically correct but he.

basically thinks that she's. a prostitute and he. uh talks to her about like who's your. pimp and all that kind of stuff he. attacks her and all that all that kind. of way when she's just an innocent. right she has you know she has a past of. that kind but she's an innocent person. and he connected and they fell in love. with each other. her gentleness his worldliness all that. kind of stuff um but that sometimes it. doesn't work out that way and there's. that heartbreak when you see you realize.

um. you're never going to be able to have. that and that's bruce springsteen saw. that this is a married woman i'm never. going to be able to have that but i want. that and that's the heartbreak i got to. say i just assumed they were fucking. like i didn't right after the song like. the song doesn't get too little girl is. your daddy home did he go away and leave. you all alone. you know he's like. he knows she's at home alone yeah but it. never.

materializes. he's he's he's lost it's longing it's a. it's a man who's not with the the thing. he craves for so he's longing for he's. talking about the longing right not with. having hey if anybody in the cia is. watching this can you look into bruce. springsteen's file and let us know if he. actually banged the person. between the song one fact look the. longing though i'll tell you this here's. what's interesting about that thing that. you're talking about. have you ever you've heard have you ever. heard of something called bhakti yoga.

i think so yeah it's the yoga of love. and there's all kinds there's forms of. it you the most the one people know. about the most is the hari krishnas but. hari christians are like uh you know the. way in christianity you've got the. episcopalians the catholics the baptist. in bhakta yoga you have various. deities that are the object of. love and so back to yoga is the. is like and what's really cool about. it is it's a.

an analysis of love and so and it's the. the. supposition being like love is the way. to. commune with the divine now a. distinction is drawn between. like two big world views that are. spiritual one is. the concept of sort of. unit of consciousness that i you which. you'll you'll run into and a lot of. forms of buddhism if not all a sort of.

a way of deconstructing the identity or. understanding that that you might not be. anything at all then in fact you're part. of everything and in that there's a. uh. a potential relief from suffering and. that not just like intellectually. knowing it but. becoming it now um. whereas in. bhakti yoga there's this idea of like. the. the best thing is to be the individual.

because. individuals are required for love this. for love to work embodied. love and so. the. quality the thing we call you know the. the experience of love is something that. can be cultivated it doesn't just have. to be for another person it doesn't have. to be for the stranger on the bus it. doesn't have to be for sweaty bruce. springsteen's. lover that you could actually. tr you can actually shift that love to. the divine to god because obviously it's. hard christians it's a theistic religion.

they believe in krishna. who is the. from the pov of vaishnava bhakti yoga. the godhead the. source from which everything. uh flows into the into time space so. that. they're all these like fascinating. stories of krishna it's not just most. people are familiar with krishna from. the bhagavad-gita they're about to be. more what's cool about it is because. it's like they're making the oppenheimer. movie and he famously quoted the. bhagavad-gita when the they split the.

atom but um. there's all these stories of krishna. that are not just in the. bhagavad-gita. and these stories. they could seem very simple when taken. literally but by schneider back to yoga. it's this very advanced. theistic. yogic system so they take these stories. and from these stories they. extrapolate this incredible analysis of.

what love is and how to connect with the. universe so like. krishna has a lover radharani and so. sometimes. they're getting along. sometimes they're fighting. sometimes. they're separated. and so. each of these. ways of feeling about krishna. modes of love. so. longing actually is considered one of.

the highest forms of love. the idea is the longing is the grace the. longing is the love so when you find. yourself in a situation. of longing. and heartbreak. it is. identical. to union. you know and perhaps. more intense more intensely. representative of the essence of what is. love yes and and they call it pining so. there's the in it's pining for krishna.

and there's also. there's the other ways you could be with. krishna is as a friend so. this is another form of love or. you know as a mother you know uh because. krishna has a. mother so there's like all these ways of. like looking at the various forms of. love and it's a really beautiful. form of yoga that's emphasizing the. individual and then the individual is a. kind of channel to. this universal love yeah they're they. like there's a lot of different like.

uh their answer to the question of what. shows up in buddhism is absolute and. relative reality like. that uh obviously there's relative. reality we're we're not right now you. and me are not unitive consciousness. like. you zoom back far enough and we're gonna. seem like an atom or whatever the. the the thing is the trope is or you. could zoom back far enough and we're. gonna whatever we're in a piece of. cheese or something who knows but. in that way we're like completely.

unified um but simultaneously we're. individuals like for sure or individuals. like you still gotta pay your taxes you. gotta know your social security number. that's relative reality so you know. buddhism is like kind of the balance. again when i say buddhism is i'm a. comedian podcaster i'm not some buddhist. expert this is just probably my. confused. idea of what it is but anyway in bhakti. yoga there's the concept. it's called i'm going to mispronounce it.

a cincinnka beta tatfa. i'm sorry i'm mispronouncing it. which means. simultaneous oneness and difference. so. oneness and difference yes simultaneous. one so that's why the the oneness is the. more. part of the same piece of cheese. and the difference is we are still each. paying taxes. yes and in this case the cheese is. krishna so. you know or other ways it gets. described as like you know a photon.

blasting off the sun has sunlight. qualities. but it's not the sun. humans. have being a one of the many things you. know flowing out of the creative. consciousness of the divine. have qualities. that are weirdly like. the god-like you know like we it's in. fact we want to control primarily that's. one of the. problems like humans want to be. in control where and from there the.

bhakti yoga perspective. krishna is this effort is effortlessly. controlling. everything. uh and so within the system the. individual parts of the system have that. same quality but you can't you're. probably not god you might be i'm not. uh what do you think happens after we. die. haven't come close to that. that um that cliff. and almost got pushed over once.

what do you think happens when you do. get pushed off the cliff. okay i feel dumb that i'm even gonna. like preface this by saying obviously i. have no fucking idea and i think that's. one of the cool things about death. no idea the cia probably does you think. the cia. i love like we've decided your audience. is the cia yeah. how would you oh wait i i need to. because there's a lot of suspicion that. i might be fsb and mossad so i'm trying. to rebrand.

i'm trying to steer them into the cia. direction. no as far as what happens when you when. you die. one thing i return to when i'm getting. overly complex. is the idea of as above so below so. uh that you can a lot of the big. questions can be answered by your own. experience. now so. in other words like uh. in terms of thinking about like death. um.

if you. look back. to. baby legs. versus adult legs. where's the baby like baby's gone they. you've regenerated all your cells. many times by then so in a way you could. say lex baby died and the death didn't. look like a typical. and i'm not trying to dodge it but i'm. just saying. it was very natural that the death of. that baby it just uh.

it just in many ways that baby died but. i am at least personally i'm surprised. how much the person is exactly the same. so there's many ways in which you're. very different. but there's a lot of ways in which. you're very much the same sure and i. wonder if that. if there's if life is defined by many. deaths that contin that continue on and. then there i wonder if there's something. persists sure beyond in this. that.

yeah there is something that still. persists i wonder okay so that. now. you know obviously. there's so many different. answers to this question that are. religious and. ranging from like the most absurd shit. you ever in your life like the gold. you're going to get a mansion there's. gold streets like i don't know do you. even want like gold streets like offers. gold streets i know about the virgins. but there's a bunch of virgins the. christians give you the gold streets in. the mansion like depending on the.

and the who whatever the particular sect. of christianity is you know you you it's. like it's some kind of city there's. it's like paved with gold no one's. addressing the fact that the moment the. streets are made of gold gold is a. valueless. substance i mean it's sort of pretty in. a cheesy kind of way but no one's gonna. give a shit it's like like if there was. not a lot of. asphalt in the world. then you know we'd be in heaven from. that same with that way of thinking but.

the. uh or honestly when uh going back this. this this is starting to get a theme. with glug archipelago i'm sorry i'm. reading it currently that's a sticky. book yeah it's very sticky in your mind. very very tough as i'm running through. very hot heat i'm listening to glug. archipelago oh my god and you know one. of the things they said they would feed. the prisoners salt. um. and then they would exchange. the prisoners would be able to. give up anything everything their gold.

their possessions everything for just. one drink of water so that little. context of. dehydrating them and feeding them salt. changes your value system completely. right so maybe the gold is supposed to. be a metaphor for something that you. still value deeply yes it's yeah again. any any of these things when you like. take them literally they seem absurd but. if you look deeper into it it's like. quite beautiful but the buddhist version. of it is that uh there's a momentum the. best way to put it is it's a kind of. momentum so.

uh the thing you're talking about which. is uh. the personality of the baby that is. still in the adult which is still in the. old person you're looking at a kind of. momentum that does not stop. upon the. extinction of the body. now. the. the. a i think there's a lot of uh. i don't want to say harm because they. didn't mean to hurt but i think there's. some harm that maybe has happened from.

the way death. is represented in movies like when. people die in movies it's like. there's this usually it's pretty fast. even if it is uh. what they're dying from is a long-term. disease it like wraps up pretty quickly. starts with a cough the person's in bed. but there's this weird kind of lucidity. to the person up until the point of. death and also they generally in movies. they have makeup on which is always. funny to me when the person dying looks. great if you're ever around a dying. person they're dying they look like shit.

you're dying they're all gray and like. confused they're. you know when you're around dying people. they will spin through time. your parents won't recognize you for a. second they'll think you're somebody. else they won't they're like. everything's. everything's like the process is. happening so. it's a you're very confused when you die. so. in general not all the time some people. die with a with a clear mind it just. depends on the type of death but. think in terms of.

uh getting hit by a car so you want to. cross the street you get hit by a car. now. if we're talking about this momentum. continuing. the confusion assuming you didn't hit. your head and you're unconscious like. somehow you just got smashed and you're. like bleeding out. even then you're going to be confused. because you're getting dizzy like. blood's leaving your body you're like. things are fading out your vision's. going so it's a very confusing. experience initially when the body dies. if you are a materialist.

who has been. who has convinced themselves that. it's a permanent thing. the next bit of confusion is going to be. when you realize. something is persisting here like i'm. still here and this is where you run. into the near-death experiences which. are a global phenomena that don't seem. to be. completely shaped by culture. you know like regardless of what part of. the world people are having these. experiences in the reports tend to be. similar and everyone's heard it the.

light the life review. uh. seeing ancestors and stuff like that now. i don't know what that is. i. don't know i i. sometimes i think that's probably just. like a built-in. way the computer shuts down you know. just this is something it does who knows. but. uh in buddhism the concept is. this momentum persists into something. called the bardo the bardo means in. between and um.

there's an actual number of days they. say that. you get to hang out there and i can't. remember it's like 37 days or 29 days or. something i'm not sure but. at least from the. time space perspective that's how long. they're there. within this place. uh. it's there are a lot of technological. parallels man it's like. in the way the algorithm. is reflective it assesses your desires. or whatever and then produces something.

that is. has within it a component of attraction. to you apparently this happens in the. bardo like or the way you know you wake. up in the morning. and. you're in a shitty mood. and then coincidentally everyone that. day is an asshole. if you don't catch it you could just be. like wow i guess it's act like an. asshole day you don't realize you're. seeing your asshole projection. like being reflected off the screen of. another person so in the bardo. apparently you don't need people for the.

reflective quality. these projections happen and there they. appear as either. nietzsche's demon or nietzsche's angel. it just depends on. where you're at and how you died and. like if you died scared. then at least initially that's gonna be. some scary shit you see around you if. you died in a peaceful way well then. uh. there's going to be more of a. possibility of navigation through this.

liminal intermediary. place and so thus the emphasis on. meditation in buddhism a way to. calm one's self to not be distracted by. thoughts which are their own like. apparitions. and then. theoretically if you wanted to. instead of. spinning the wheel again and jumping. back into a body. you could choose not to do that and then. you know transcend the wheel of birth. and death but if you still wanted to go.

back. or. return or whatever however you want to. put it then you could have more control. over what your next birth might be. versus. in this depiction of things people. running from. demons that they don't recognize as. their own projection. into any fucking body that they can find. because if you've had a body you want a. body and so this is how you can. incarnate as an animal this is how you. can incarnate in the hell realms this is.

how you could incarnate in any variety. of things but the idea is like maybe you. could slow down a little bit and like. choose a birth that is going to be more. conducive to you. uh. continuing to like. spiritually evolve i like that idea is. it true or not who the fuck does. algorithmically speaking it it seems. like a really fun role-playing game. where you basically oh yeah keep. improving the different parameters.

based on your. ability and willingness to. meditate and. let go of the. of the. menial concerns of life on earth yeah. why do you think. buddha see life is suffering. what's suffering okay well first of all. the. that is that gets mistranslated quite a. bit you're talking about the four noble. truths the first one is it often gets. translated as life is suffering which is.

not. it it's there is suffering the whole. life is suffering thing is just like the. spiritual version of life's a bitch then. you die and people hear that they're. like yeah life is fucking suffering but. it's there is suffering there is. suffering so. it's an affirmation. if you're like this this thing that a. lot of people feel that they associate. with lots of they have a lot of reasons. they think they're feeling it. is known as fundamental dissatisfaction.

so so. another word for suffering maybe could. be. fundamental dissatisfaction also. the term itself. uh. maybe a better translation is wobbly. wheel. so like imagine like when your bike. doesn't have an or your car doesn't have. enough air in the tires your bike. doesn't have air in the tires it's kind. of a shitty bike ride like no matter. what just kind of like it's like. uncomfortable it's like irritating so. this is. what's being pointed to is that there's.

this quality. within a human life. that is. um. unsatisfying like like a wobbly wheel. wobbly wheel why do you what why do you. think. what is at the core of that. dissatisfaction. because it could be uh it could be as. simple as kind of physical and mental. discomforts and. sadness and depression and all that kind. of stuff yeah or it could be more. speaking to the sort of existentialist. the philosophical.

the absurdity of it all yep the fact. that stuff happens good stuff happens. for no reason bad stuff happens for no. reason yeah um yeah that it's. no matter how much you try. there's not. a universal fairness to the whole thing. there's not even a universal meaning to. the whole thing. so the existentialist perspective what. do you what what flavor of suffering do. you prefer oh it was an ice cream shop. ah that's so funny well i'm gonna i'm.

definitely picking desire over the like. if. in in the rgb that we're talking about. here is. desire. aversion. and ignorance so if you want to find. like the three. uh the the three ingredients that are. giving everyone their sophisticated. bits of suffering there you go that's. what what's uh in which way does design. manifest itself in suffering it hurts. to lose to not have. like yeah it hurts to not like to.

eternally not have but just like. my friend pointed this out he's like you. know like. you order something from amazon like. even in the smallest way you're excited. about whatever the thing is you order. this thing from amazon it's not coming. for four days so those four days are. going to be somewhat marked by you being. what people say i'm excited about it. but really if you look at that feeling. it's uncomfortable like the feeling of. wanting the thing is uncomfortable. so. that is a form of suffering that's.

suffering. interesting i mean i wonder. because we naturally reframe that in our. mind. wanting. we reframe that as a good thing as um. and maybe suffering is. fundamentally good. in the way we think of what life is. like it's life affirming. but it's not usually how the word. suffering is used well it's true.

it's true like the first noble truth of. buddhism is true it's called the truth. of suffering there is suffering i mean. this is like an i don't know an element. that you can't break it down any further. than that like there is suffering this. is truth so. if you think. you know and again as signing like good. or bad to truth i think maybe. there's more of a sort of neutrality. there it's just what it is it's truth i. mean is it any is it basically is. suffering any disturbance.

uh from stillness. is suffering then. like basically any. anything that happens in life that. uh. that's like that perturbs the system. ripples in the end ripples ripples yeah. so a still lake is is empty of suffering. but any kind of ripple is is suffering. in that sense a still lake is empty of. suffering. you sound like a zen master it seems. like something is in masturbation if i.

can just grow a beard like yours ah i. know the beard doesn't help. if i had your chin you think i'd have a. fucking beard i look like a stork you. should see me if i had your chin there. would be no beard here no you have a. symmetrical nice chin this is the. closest i can come to plastic surgery. pubic plastic surgery friend. that's how you know you're a. professional comedian. uh. yes it's suffering they're suffering. and. the lake. analogy is pretty good because.

the um. what's happening here is that that. we have become. identified with something that we call a. self so. this the self is just accepted i have a. self i have an identity i'm a person i. have a self. but. when you. start doing scans to try to find. yourself which is the entire thing i'm. going to find. myself you get in a van go to california.

take some acid yeah fuck a prostitute on. the bus or whatever kerouac did i'm. gonna find myself she didn't. he she wasn't a prostitute just to. correct the record oh previously. prostituted i guess once a prostitute. was a prostitute you know what she's a. former i don't think that no and look. i'm not i've. not assigned it look all i'm saying is. uh i don't care who cares who has a bit. of prostitute god you are used to be one. we're all obviously we're all kind of a. kind of prostitute yeah yes yes but the. the i make love.

and we make money. therefore we're all a kind of prostitute. we make god how great i would really. love to be able to make money by fucking. i mean it's maybe not directly but in. some sense directly. [Laughter]. do you accept venmo. never too late to start that's so sort. of one of the ways in is this sort of. contemplation of. the identity because it's like.

uh. you know what it's it's not just the. desire it's what is having the desire. where does the desire live in like what. doesn't want to be where it's at what is. the thing that is like. desperately wanting to get out of the. situation it's in and then um as far as. ignorance uh it's still something that's. theoretically happening to an identity. so. so wrapped up in it is really just this. sort of like and that's where we run.

into what. into attachment so if. if the first noble truth of buddhism is. there is suffering. the second noble truth of buddhism is. um the cause. of. this suffering is attachment and so. people hear that and they take it that's. a there's a lot of levels to that. concept definitely the cause of. suffering is attachment i mean god i. just got addicted to vapes is there a. more embarrassing. addiction than vapes i'm smoking like a.

little purple thing it tastes like sugar. it's attachment it is there is suffering. i want it i have to charge it now i'm. embarrassed by it makes me feel out of. control there's a lot of suffering but. also. there's deeper levels of attachment they. go all the way to this. attachment to the sense of. one's. self and the i think the existentialists. do get into this idea in a different way. which is like.

because i think i'm a me. now i have to push. what that thing is out into the world. through my actions and that's a kind of. attachment too. exactly there you go right and that. leads to the third noble truth which is. get rid of attachment. and you won't suffer anymore. uh. that's it seems logical but you know it. is a very. it is a mathematical analysis of. uh this particular problem of suffering.

it's addressing and then the fourth. noble truth is the eightfold path of. buddhism which is like a. a process by which one could. unencumber. oneself from this identification with. something that isn't real. do you have a bathroom break. yeah thank you i do. appreciate that. there's a funny moment i was running in. the heat yesterday listening to. gulag archipelago. and uh there's a which was a very. welcome break because i'm looking for.

any excuse to stop whatsoever. uh the. gentleman very nice gentleman stopped me. saying recognize me just said a bunch of. friendly things. and then he. mentioned as as one of the people who. really inspires him is. duncan trussell. you know. and now i was uh i mean i'm the same way. and i told them you know tomorrow it. felt like a name drop. i named you this morning. i was like tomorrow i'm gonna get to. meet him so he says he says hi and.

there's oh and he said that um. he watched midnight gospel on. on mushrooms and it was like the. greatest mushroom experience of his life. i don't know. yeah man i yeah i was nervous about. meeting you man like i have so much. respect for you and like oh yeah i name. dropped i was saying i'm going on alex's. podcast today it's you look we're so. lucky we all live here what the fuck. we're all living in austin together like. i i. somehow like missed that.

but. that's we all got to hang out we all. have to like start doing stuff but you. have to really also you have to. appreciate this moment i. i remember uh i i know. some people are less amount and. sentimental than others. but i remember sitting with um. with joe rogan. and with eric weinstein i believe it was. yeah and at the back of the comedy store. um shortly before covet i think. and just thinking like there's no way.

these things will last. and these things meaning the comedy. store. joe rogan. yeah joe rogan d joe rogan like a pot. like a pocket influential podcasting. person yeah also. uh a person. like in this room in this space the. ability to just talk for hours and lose. ourselves in this moment it just felt um. ephemeral somehow. temporary and i just wanted to capture.

that moment somehow like yeah i don't. know sometimes that's where the. temptation to take a picture and that. kind of stuff or record a podcast comes. from right but just felt like it would. be it'd be gone forever. of course uh joe doesn't seem to have. that kind of sentiment. no no no just wherever you end up you. just enjoy the shit out of it right. that's it well and that's something you. have to cultivate you know that's not an. easy the thing you're talking about you. know uh. god have you seen these. uh i think the best analogy for you're.

talking about there's these videos where. people give like a sugar cube to a. raccoon. but the raccoons they wash their food so. raccoon or i think it's cotton candy. they give the raccoon cotton candy. immediately it washes the cotton candy. and of course the cotton candy dissolves. in the water and the raccoon is like. what the fuck like you know and and the. thing you're that grasping you're. talking about it's like the raccoon. washing the cotton candy like the moment. you get into the grasping part. you.

paradoxically have pulled yourself out. of the moment that inspired the grasping. part. and and that's you know that's some. people that's the entirety of their. lives. trying to record i mean jesus man you. ever see people film fireworks on the. fourth of july with their phone it's one. of the most remarkable. qual. aspects of human behavior which is like. you know they're not gonna watch. the fireworks. on their phone. only a lunatic would do that like who's.

gonna go back and look at fireworks but. but we're also in this position where. because of podcasting there is some. aspect where you can record a magical. moment in time. together between two people. or even just with the camera so to get. back to the lake. that you were talking about this is. emptiness so that's emptiness that's. what's known as emptiness the lake is. emptiness and that's what we are. emptiness emptiness and that's another. thing that gets very confused in in in.

buddhism is that. emptiness and that emptiness. is that's to me like when i'm. going to do a podcast that's where i try. to go i try to go just in the moment. no agenda you know if i am nervous or. whatever okay i'll feel the nervousness. but just in the just drop into the. moment that's when time change time. changes and then you look up. hours have passed it feels like a second. and the reason it feels like that is. because if you. uh successfully dropped into the moment.

it's. it's the lake now it's emptiness it's. forever for a second you're like dim. you're dipping into eternity and. and yeah it's a it's a very strange. thing to to as part of that record it. you know it's part of that try to like. grab it and and put it out there but it. works. can you speak to that to uh the duncan. trussell family hour can you speak about. that purple lavender world you go to.

when it's most intense and successful. for you when you feel a sense of. lightness and happiness when it when it. works yeah whether it's your own or a. conversation with joe in general whereas. uh well yours is very specific because. it's audio only maybe you can also speak. to that yes. you might as well be. naked or you don't have to yeah you have. to you're free of the conventions yes of. the the real world. i will never stop. thinking it's remarkable like the fact.

that i'm talking to you to me. seems remarkable not just. technologically but i'm talking to. someone. i'm assuming i'm allowed to say this who. has robot. dogs that i've been watching. for years evolve on youtube i'm. arms reach away from one of these things. you know and i'm i'm with somebody who. is like an acclaimed genius so for me. it's like oh my god how's.

what why do i get to have this. conversation why do i get to be here. when there would be like a line there'd. be a line that were just wrapped and. wrapped and wrapped around this building. and people would love a chance to just. chat with you and so when i with my. podcast. that is how i feel like when i'm talking. to these guests you know who have. spent you know some of them have like. spent their entire lifetime. meditating. you know studying specific.

uh aspects of buddhism or or even when. i'm with you know with when i'm with. comedians who who i like. consider to be brilliantly funny so for. me it's just like. god i almost feel like. i've just created some sophisticated. trap for cool people where like i get to. like hang out with him so you're like. sitting in the gratitude of it just just. feeling lucky yeah yeah feeling lucky. and wrestling with imposter syndrome you. know trying to like get that part of. myself to shut up long enough so i could.

be in that moment that we're talking. about you know. and and then and then i carry that with. me it's not just like you stop the. podcast it's like some of the things. these people tell me. or some of the ways they are like it. becomes part of me and then i get to. have a life where this thing that they. gave me is in in me forever and so yeah. it's uh it's there's yeah it's cool how. conversation can just. a few sentences. can change the direction of your life if.

you're listening if you're there to be. transformed by the words they will do. the work yes. um and it's the full mix of it it's. usually. when um if you look up to somebody. and it's true for me at least i think it. is for you that you start to look up to. basically everybody you talk to yes. yes good sign yeah that's a good sign. god forbid it goes the other way yeah. you're in trouble yeah if all of a. sudden you start looking down on people.

because whatever crazy metric you're. using. oh that would freak me out i do feel. like that's the quality of getting older. when i was younger i really like i. i thought it was so smart like i thought. i all figured out oh really so you're. going you're your ego is just going. taking the nosedive i would like to say. it's my ego taking a nosedive i've me. and my friend talk about it a bunch. we've just always associated it with. like doing. acid for. two decades straight like i'm gonna just. assume i'm just like.

slowly like spiraling into senility you. know like i'm just like i i. all the confidence all the like oh the. certainty when you're having like in. college having the great yeah oh like. like you know you i remember you're. you feel like you're a representative of. camus or some shit you know what i mean. you read the myth of sisyphus and now. you like it know all existentialism and. your certainty in regards to it is. embarrassing but you don't see it in. that way you just feel certain and then.

that certainty it just starts like. it starts crumbling a little bit and. then. yeah you know i get to actually. intensely experience. that certainty in many communities but. one in in cryptocurrency. young folks. with the certainty that this technology. would transform the world yeah and i. mean this is almost one of the big. communities of the modern era. where they believe that this will really. solve so many of the problems of the.

world they believe in it very intensely. and. aside from the technology and the. details of the thing all i see is the. certainty and the passion in their eyes. they'll stop me let me. uh let me explain you let me let me just. give me a chance to tell you why this. thing is extremely powerful and i i just. get to enjoy the glow of that because. it's like yeah wow this i i miss having. that certainty about anything yeah it's. probably come over for me too. yeah but when i was younger it's like.

only. i deeply understand the. the relationship of man. to his mortality yeah and i understood. that most deeply i think when i was like. 16 or 17. and i have i am the. representative of the human condition. and all these adults. with their busyness day-to-day life and. their concerns they don't deeply. understand right what i understand which. is the only thing that matters. is uh.

the absurdity of the human condition. yeah. yeah and and let me quote you some dusty. husky oh boy and you speak russian yes. you've read the brothers karamazov in. russian unfortunately i have to admit. that. um. i read all of these in english. i. came to this country when i was 13. and at least don't remember we read a. lot but we read. tolstoy pushkin.

a lot of the russian literature but it. was it in russian but i don't remember. reading dusties i wonder which point. does the russian education system give. you dostoevsky because it's pretty heavy. stuff in second grade. that's right the second grade russians. are intense i don't remember yes they. they are they're very they very much are. i don't remember reading this but i did. uh. tangent upon a tangent upon a tangent i. traveled to paris recently on the way to. ukraine.

and uh was. scheduled to talk to richard piver and. oliver say this pair the translate. dostoevsky. uh tolstoy just this famous pair that. translate most of russian literature to. english and i i was. planning to have a sequence of. you know five ten fifteen hour. conversation with them about the. different details of all the. translations and so on um i just found. myself in a very dark place mentally. where i couldn't think about podcasts or.

anything like that it caught me off. guard. so i went to paris and just laid there. for a day. not just being stressed about. ukraine and all those kinds of things. yeah but i'm still. the the act of translation is such a. fascinating. way to approach some of the deepest. questions that this literature raises. which is like how do i capture the. essence of a sentence that has so much. power and translate it into another. language right that act is actually.

really really interesting and there. i found with my conversations with them. they. they've really thought through this. stuff it's not just about language it's. about the ideas in those books right and. that's um that that also really makes me. sad because i wonder how much is lost in. translation i'm currently. so when i was in ukraine. i talked to a lot of. like half the conversations i had. on the record were in russian. and.

basically. a hundred percent off the record were in. in russian versus in in english. and uh just so much is lost in those. languages and i'm now struggling. because i'm uh launching a russian. channel or. there would be a russian overdub of. duncan wow. your wow will now be translated into. russian what's russian wow. i don't that it'll just be wow probably. i'm so sorry for the for the. difficulties of having to translate wow.

usually probably with wow they'll leave. it unoverdubbed because people. understand exactly what you mean but. that's an art form and it's a weird art. form yeah it's like how do you capture. the. the chemistry. the excitement the. yeah. i don't know maybe. the the humor. the implied kind of wit i don't know. there's just layers of complexity in. language that you it's very difficult to. capture yeah and i wonder how.

it is sad for me because i know russian. how much is lost in translation and the. same. you know there's a brewing conflict and. tension with china now and so much is. lost in the translation between those. languages oh my god yeah in cultures the. entire. the the music of the people is. completely lost because we don't know. the language or most of us don't know. yeah how much of the conflict is just. problems in translation how much of the. all these problems that we're having are.

just the alien sense of this or that. it's just as simple as that. words are getting. just that just the a a tiny. warp. away from the intent. of if when we both speak the same. language. we can still. say something that offends someone when. you never intended that at all. how much more so. when. like it's not only is it a completely. different sound but the script itself is.

different like. uh what is. the russian writing is it called cyril. cyrillic or what's that yes or like. certainly. and i don't know the name for chinese. writing but it's like like it's a. continuum that like gets weirder and. weirder looking you know like. it's so yeah or less weird depending on. your perspective yeah. i'm sure depending on where you're at. you know i'm definitely i'm about the. farthest thing from a polyglot as there. could be man like but i'll tell you.

at one point when i was getting. fascinated by. dostoevsky i did have this very. transient fantasy about learning russian. so that i could like understand. the difference in and you were you were. 17 18 at the time good college yeah yeah. brothers karamazov lost in that book. just like oh god. so. in love with it. but there's a there is definitely. like um you know ukraine and that's what. they're a lot of the war is about is.

saying you know ukraine and russia are. not. the same people there's a strong culture. in ukraine there's a strong culture in. russia but you know i know because. that's where my family is from there is. a fascinating. strong culture. but there's such strong cultures. everywhere else too. ireland has a culture scotland as a. culture yeah even like a on a tiny. island you have these like subcultures. that are. more powerful than anything existed in.

human history. like the bronx i don't know like. like different parts of new york have a. certain culture and then new york versus. l.a versus well and then certain places. are looking for their culture like i. don't i think austin. i don't know what austin is i don't. think anyone knows there's a. there's a traditional austin and then. it's evolving constantly same with. boston a place i spent a lot of right. there's a traditional boston and now. it's evolving with the different yeah uh.

younger people coming from the. university and staying and all that is. evolving but underneath it there's a. core like the american ideal of the the. value of the individual the value of. freedom. of freedom of speech all those kinds of. things that permeates all of that and. the same thing in. uh the the history of world war ii. permeates ukraine and russia. a lot of parts of europe the memories of. all that suffering destruction yeah the. broken promises of governments and the.

uh. the occupier versus the. the liberator all that kind of stuff all. that permeates the culture that affects. how cynical or optimistic you are. or. how much you appreciate. material possessions versus human. connection right all that kind of stuff. yeah it's i mean this is like you talk. about absurdity i mean this is what war. is like it's the what absurdity looks. like it's it's.

some kind of organized madness none of. it makes sense like all of it like it's. just. none of it makes sense like. but it does but it doesn't i mean. obviously you're defending yourself or. you're. taking orders that if you don't take. you're you're going to jail and so. or some somewhere in between you know. the classic story about this maybe it's. a bullshit myth about world war ii. you've i'm sure everyone's heard it. because it comes up you know it's. christmas eve. and they. have a ceasefire.

and then i think they played soccer. they sing christmas songs and then they. had to force them into fighting again. yeah and and so when those moments. happen. the uh are you familiar with hakeem bay. he's a controversial figure sadly like. he like i think he was like. with i'm not gonna defame him because i. haven't like researched it correctly but. some people have said shit but since i. don't know the reference i'm not gonna. but regardless. um i mean you know look i'm sorry but.

bill cosby was funny you know like. that's a. that's a funny comedian but. you know the other stuff michael jackson. he could fucking dance. and sing and sing but there's some other. stuff but regardless um hakeem bay came. up with the idea of something called a. temporary autonomous zone. which is that within a s. structure a cultural structure. a temporary.

bubble of. freedom will appear. that by. its nature. gets sort of. popped by the bigger. bubble or it runs out of resources. generally is what happens so. these things will appear just out of the. blue that. it's almost like. imagine if like on earth in some tiny. little bit of earth the gravitational. field was reduced by. some percentage and all of a sudden you. could jump really high or whatever but.

it wouldn't last it's like that. culturally all the restrictions and the. darkness and the heaviness and all of it. for a second. somehow this bubble appears where humans. come together. as the. hippie ideal. brothers sisters just humans. earthlings instead of. american chinese russian ukrainian. temporary autonomous zone it gets. crushed by the default reality that it.

was appearing in but somehow within that. space. you witness. the possibility. the possibility the frustrating. possibility that. anyone who's thought about. humanity has knows this possibility. which is like it seems like we can just. get along. like it does seem like we're pretty much. the same thing and then we can just get. along. um those moments are really rare. it's sad so i talked to a lot of. soldiers a lot of people that were.

suffered through the different aspects. of that. war. and. there is an information war that. convinces each side that. the other is not just the enemy but less. than human. right. so. there's a real hatred towards the other. side yeah. and those kind of little moments where. you realize oh. they're human like me yeah and not just.

like human like me but they're they have. the same values as me. and um. uh this this woman. who was a really respected soldier she. specializes in anti-and tank missiles. and. she she's very kind of very pragmatic. very. the enemy is the enemy who have to. destroy the enemy and saying like. there's no compassion towards the enemy. they're not they're not human they're.

less than human. but she said there was there was a. moment when. she remembers an enemy soldier. in a tank. took a risk to save a fellow soldier. and that risk was really stupid because. he was facing he was going to get. destroyed. and then she she said that. um she tried to shoot a rocket at that. tank and she missed. and then she later went home and she.

couldn't sleep that she missed how could. she screw that up. but then she realized that. actually. she missed maybe she missed on purpose. yeah. because. she realized that that man. just like she is. was a hero. just like she strives to be. they were both heroes defending their. own. and in that way he was just like her she. was like that's the only time i remember. during this war ever feeling.

like this is another human being but. that was a very brief moment yeah. and i just hear that over and over and. over again these romantic notions we. have. of. we're one. that we're all just human. unfortunately during war. those notions are rare. and it's quite sad and worn in a certain. way really destroys those notions and. one of the saddest things. is it just it destroys it.

at least from what i see. potentially for generations oh yeah not. just for those people for the rest of. their life but for. their children their children's children. the hatred. i mean i asked that question of. basically everyone which is um. will you ever forgive for asking of. ukrainians will you ever forgive the. russians. will um do you have hate in your heart. towards the russians. or do you have. love.

for a fellow human being. and. there's different. ways that people struggle with that. different people they saw that. they they saw the love they saw the hate. with their known heart. and they struggle with the hate they. have and they know they can overcome it. in a period of weeks and months after. the war is over but some people said no. this hate that was. that showed up in in february when the. war started will be with me forever well. yeah their kids got killed.

what the fuck you gonna do about that. like i don't care i don't i've got you. know i've got aphorisms and cute little. stories about you know you're still in. prison if you hate your former captors. but man i gotta tell you. if somebody hurt my kids. i'm not coming back i mean. there's no amount. at least right now in my approximation. of spiritual literature. meditation or anything that i can really. think of that is going to. give me that kind of space like i i like.

i think i imagine in the same way like. uh. i imagine i could probably run a. marathon eventually but do i think i. don't think i'm ever going to do that. that times a million so man. you know all we can do is have. compassion for their hate because it's. like. what are you gonna tell what are you. gonna say what are you gonna say to. someone like that oh. oh you know. for the sake of humanity. let it go it was just your kids it was.

just something you loved more than. anything in the world you'll never be. okay again you'd have nightmares for the. rest of your life. but you should forgive. no well there is truth in the fact that. forgiveness is the way to let go right. but that truth is not that you. uh fuck you right this is um which is. why it's not your job to say that you. know and i'm not that you're doing that. i know you're not but you know the. problem with people like me.

early phase you could get this stupid. missionary thing going where you like. start trying to like. uh. i don't know like proselytize ideals. that you might be incapable of you know. and i i just. hearing it you know i that's the. man i saw this uh. the thing that like i mean i've seen a. lot all of us have by now probably if or. online i've seen and you just saw it in. person like we've seen things that are. just. horrific. but as a dad.

man i just saw this clip of this kid. around the age of my kid. walking. by himself these refugees just walking. by himself. chron the look on his face i can't. explain the look on his face. i don't know what happened to his. parents i don't know what happened like. i. it was so upsetting i like even thinking. about now it's just like fuck that could. have been my kid that could have been my. kid you know so. knowing that kind that.

that kid's got to grow up. now that and i don't know does it is the. kids parents still there and that's just. one. of. countless. orphans out there now so what you have. this. hate and the question is how to direct. it. because the choice is you can direct it. towards the politicians that started the. war. you can direct it towards the soldiers. that are doing the killing or you can. direct it towards an entire group of. people.

and that's the struggle because hate. slowly grows to where you don't just. hate. the soldiers you don't just hate. the the leaders. you hate all russians. because they're all equally evil because. the ones that aren't doing the fighting. are staying quiet. and i'm sure the same kind of stories. are happening on the other side. and so. there is. that hate.

is uh one. that. is is deeply human. but you wonder. for your own future for your own home. for building your own community for. building your own country. how does that hate morph over the. weeks and months and years. not into forgiveness but into something. that's productive that doesn't destroy. you because hate does destroy that's the.

dark aspect of uh. you know a rocket that heals hits a. building and kills. hundreds of people. the worst effect of that rocket. is. is the hate in the hearts of the loved. ones. to the people that were in that building. yes that hate is this is a torture over. a period of. years after and that it doesn't just.

torture. uh by having that psychological burden. and trauma it also tortures because it. destroys your life. it prevents you from being able to enjoy. your life to the to the fullest right it. prevents you from. being able to flourish as a human being. as a as a professional as a you know. in all those kinds of ways that humans. can flourish and. i i don't know and it's such a um you. know there is there is a.

there is an aspect where this naive. notion. is really powerful that love and. forgiveness is the thing yeah that's. needed in this time and and um. when i talk to soldiers they don't. you know i remember bringing up to uh to. jocko. is there a sense where the people you're. fighting are just brothers in arms. bringing up the dire straight song. brothers in arms. and he was basically without swearing.

saying fuck that that they're the enemy. yeah i mean he's literally in survival. mode yeah he can't think like that it's. going to create latency in the system. and that's going to lower survivability. you can't think that i mean we're. talking about like cognitively you can't. have latency like if you're that one. moment of hesitation like you see it. sometimes like in these youtube videos. of uh. like um. somebody. a a a new cop. has. been unfortunate enough to run into. something that is a phenomena suicide by.

cop. somebody has a knife and that person is. running towards them with a knife and. they're begging the person to stop that. you can hear it in their voice they're. begging stop stop stop stop and the. person is not going to stop. so. the critique of that. is that. that. latency. could potentially not just lead to the. cop getting.

killed but to that person. with a knife killing other people and so. you know. i get i i if i were out there i think. that like. you. you want you probably just as a matter. of like. not getting shot and being fully in the. moment you have to be like that i would. guess i don't know i don't know i'm the. furthest thing from a soldier there. could be but. there's a. something jack cornfield this great. buddhist teacher says which is. tend to the part of the garden you can.

touch. meaning this is where we're at right now. thank god you and i. though we are experiencing some like. ripples from what's going on over there. everyone is. we're not there and thank god we don't. have to come up with the. psychological. program for. people going through that to no longer. be encumbered by that hate thank god and. i don't know if that's just lazy or. whatever but it's like you know for me i.

just i have to bring it back to all. right well here's where i'm at now. and. uh. i i don't i like i don't want there to. be war. i don't want to hurt people but yeah i. love what you said i think what you said. is the. if anything is the most. intelligent way of looking at it it's. like don't pretend that you're not gonna. feel that hate like. you're gonna feel it there's no way. around or like because that's even worse.

because then you're almost saying like. something's wrong with them for feeling. the hate or you know whatever but more. along the lines if you can avoid. applying that hate. to. an entire country of people. then. do that like just understand we're. talking about like uh. not everybody i know it's not everybody. i know it's not everybody it's just. easier isn't it cognitively it's somehow.

easier to think. all russians. monsters. you know all russians. all whatever the particular like thing. is that you're supposed to not like it's. easier somehow weirdly you'd think. that'd be more difficult. yeah but. i guess the lesson is uh. if you give in to the easy solution. that's going to uh lead to detrimental. long-term effects. so yeah hate should be.

um it's such a powerful tool. that you should try to control it. for for your own sake not because you. owe anything to anybody right for your. own right for your own psychological. development over time right right that's. it. that's it. fuck. yeah. yeah. uh in terms of dark places um you. suffered from depression. war has been some of the darker places. you've gone in your in your mind.

you know i needed therapy man i needed. therapy for the longest time i just. didn't get it and i uh. so because of that i. uh. i would go through. like bouts of like. paralytic depression. like suicidal depression suicidal. ideations that were more than just. ideations i mean i think like. people get afraid when the thought of. suicide appears. in their consciousness they get really.

scared of themselves so they think. there's something like. fuck what's going on with me why would i. think that but i think if we are. suffering and you know as a natural part. of not of wanting to reduce suffering or. not feel bad anymore. i mean. suicide is going to be a not like if. we're just you know you're just looking. what are all the options let's. brainstorm here. you know what i mean i can start. drinking more water. i can start jogging get some therapy. call my friends all the stuff we all. hear or i could just. i think the height of my apartment.

building is probably the definitely the. right height to kill myself and then you. and then. so where. for me like the few times where the. ideation has gone towards like. well when would i do that. how do i what you know what do i need to. like. accomplish that when then like that's. where it gets really fucking scary. that's where it's like terrifying so you. start the actual. details of the planning of how to commit. suicide yeah.

what's going to be the least painful way. to do it what's going to be the most. instantaneous way to do it what's the. you know and with you know with. depression because it it can be. progressive. you know this is why. you have to really just stay on top of. anyone who's gone through depression. knows what i'm talking about you got to. stay on top of it like you might need. medication you know i know this is. controversial now but it's still better. than dying if you ask me but at some. point with depression. it like becomes paralyzing so you don't. want to get out of bed anymore and. you're not taking showers anymore and.

you don't want to talk to anybody. anymore and you're not answering your. phone anymore and. you know. so like in a dark place that you might. be in. it still might get worse so you should. really yes do everything you can. to immediately control you and that's. the problem with that specific. psychological disorder. that's the problem because it the things. it's like if you start listening to what. you wanted you think it's you it's the. depression you start listening to it. it wants you to stay in bed it's and.

then you're getting those fucking. depression sleeps. you know or you wake up and you're more. tired like it's not working you're. trying to escape reality by sleeping and. and and so. yeah like you have to like. you're it's you're fighting for your. you're literally fighting for your life. it might not seem like that because you. can't if you could see depression if you. could see it if you knew you had some. inky. vaporous. octopus thing that was just wrapping.

around you more and more and more and. more you would probably do everything. you could to rip that fucking thing off. your body and if you couldn't get it off. your body you would. be calling people to get help so it. doesn't feel like a fight because you're. exhausted there's no reason to move. there's no you don't see the meaning for. any of it so it doesn't feel like a. battle but it is a battle you're not. feeling i mean that's the other thing. you're just you're basically not feeling. you're like you you start going numb at. least that was my experience with it. numb and tired and then. increasingly numb and tired and then.

increasingly sort of disconnecting from. reality and then somewhere in there. that's when you start playing around. with the idea. of like i don't know if it's worth it i. don't know now you know i think compared. to some of my friends who haven't. survived obviously who haven't survived. depression like mine was definitely not. whatever theirs was like it i've heard. uh. i mean to understand it for folks out. there maybe you haven't gone through it. just imagine. if like how bad you have to feel if.

death is the salute like. like violence against yourself so that. you die is the solution like just. it flies in the face of everything. so i i would yeah that was definitely. the darkest. place that i've ever been is it just. that death doesn't seem like. because you don't care about anything. anymore that death just doesn't seem. like that bad yeah. um. like you're not able to appropriately.

assign. the negative cost to this the solution. right just seems like a reasonable. solution yeah and but in in in and but i. think also what's going along with it is. like. it's not like your your brain isn't. working like you're you're you're not. thinking you're obviously you're not. thinking clearly like. at least again this is was my experience. of it it's a fog you're in some kind of. like you're confused there's confusion. there's shame.

you feel embarrassed you feel. embarrassed you want to get out of bed. you want to do stuff you want to be. compelled to be social and do all this. stuff but you're not you're not and like. you seem if people don't know what's. going on and you're not telling them. because you're embarrassed. because you you want like you want to. have some like. you know. uncorrupted. un. warped psyche. you know you're like it invites you to. be secret about it that's one of its. first tricks is it tells you not to tell.

anybody and and that's deadly with in in. that case is deadly what was the source. of light what was the. what were for you. and in general the ways out. yeah. so for me i've had their their the. solutions and again man for my depressed. friends out there please don't get mad. at me i'm not doing the thing i'm like. just put on a smile or any of that. bullshit because it doesn't feel like. that when when when you're like in the.

and when you're fighting it it's. it's like you are. you're in a uh. i don't know why i'm keep i keep using. stupid gravity analogies but it's like. the gravity's been turned up on your. planet in every single way by so getting. out of bed you know like. by the way gravity and quantum mechanics. one of the most beautiful things about. our reality what the hell is each of. those things right so right this isn't. you're not just talking about happy.

language it's still. physicists pretend they understand. something we're still at the very. beginning understanding this mysterious. world of ours that seems to be. functioning according to these. weirdly simple. and yet universally powerful laws. which we don't fully yet understand. so um please the metaphor and the. analogy of gravity okay thank you fully. fully applicable i don't know any other. way to put it then it's like somebody. turned the gravitational field of your. mattress up so everything is heavy heavy.

your body's heavy you don't want to get. out of bed you will consider shitting or. pissing the bed because you're just like. who gives a fuck i'll just lay in my. shit and piss you're dying you're like. you're you're you're. it's none of it makes sense so. um. and i feel like in retrospect i'm making. what i what i've done a little like i. had more lucidity it was more of like a. when you're.

uh right you know you're wrestling with. someone and you're just like well you do. yes it's different for you but for me if. i'm wrestling i'm not thinking about jiu. jitsu moves i'm like survival. so it's like that it is a struggle. like it's like uh you really. have to deliberately. yeah fight everything so. you. start so you can almost have a. conversation with the depression. and then what you do is you start doing. the opposite.

of everything it's telling you to do. so it's telling you. lay in bed. so you get out of bed. it's definitely telling you don't. fucking exercise you're gonna go fucking. exercise that's not gonna do anything. you can't you probably have a heart. attack you really want to go outside. don't. go fucking exercise and it'll feel. crazy and you won't want to do it if you. wanted to do it you wouldn't be. depressed like how often do you hear. like one of the symptoms of depression.

you want to jog you want to get on a. bike you know you don't hear that that's. not a symptom so you start. at least. one one solution i. started doing the opposite of whatever. the voice is telling you do the opposite. that and then. suddenly that those the gravitational. field. diminishes a little bit it doesn't go. all the way away and that's where you. can fall right back into it because you. just feel even slightly better you're. like oh okay i fixed it you know really.

i think if you like in. having been through therapy. the the. best solution would be. go to a fucking therapist. as quickly as you can. just sit down with him and tell him. what's going on. i know what you're thinking how am i. gonna find a therapist just. do it google it go on yelp all this shit. feels. impossible you're like i don't want to. turn on the computer i don't do any of. this you just have to you have to you do.

it if you're on fire you do it if you're. on fire and someone's like you know. here's a way to not be on fire just this. particular fire is. it doesn't make you want to run around. screaming it just makes you want to fall. asleep forever and that but those. little steps. i got lucky because it worked it worked. i started exercising i'd been on. antidepressants before. when i was originally diagnosed with it. and. it does help. you know i even with all the current. research coming out about.

that maybe we were all wrong about our. understanding of depression i do feel. like. it helped in a certain way like it. definitely. it definitely like made me stop thinking. about it stop the intrusive thoughts and. but i don't know how much of that was. placebo or how much of that i don't know. but then also like i couldn't come. anymore that was the other fucked up. thing like you're you can't have orgasms. and um. which might not sound like a big deal. but. um.

you know when i told my therapist that. they actually took me off him because i. think she was realizing. that it started diminishing a little bit. but. the one i'm talking about now that. whatever episode or whatever you want to. call it i just got lucky because it. worked it worked and i started feeling. better thank god now if you suffer from. depression out there and you've had a. remission of the depression you know. it's it's really like it's scary to have. mental illness because. um.

everyone gets bummed out i mean that's. just normal like you're going to get. bummed out and i want to do anything. sometimes it doesn't mean you have a. clinical depression you might just be. bummed out or grieving you might be any. number of things but when. i when i get really nervous. if some of those symptoms start. showing up and. um. at one point i felt like that was. happening again. and i did. inter-muscular ketamine therapy. which.

now that was the damnedest thing. i've ever experienced aside from the. fact that ketamine is. immensely psychedelic. the. i i just remember going back to the. hotel after the. experience with a clinician and um. like you know it's like. with depression it's like a headache. that starts coming on but you're like. this headache might last for years it. might last for six months it might get. worse and worse and worse and so.

i went back to the hotel room. and it was just. gone like i just felt normal i felt i. felt great it was like. the most remarkable thing ever so you. know look at the research on ketamine. right now it's like it's it's not like. bullshit it's not like woo science. there's really really good data out. there showing that something like. i think it's 60. i don't know what the percentage is but. percent of people with.

uh depress and endogenous depression. when they. get ketamine therapy will experience. remission regardless of whether you trip. out or not it just does it does. something that i don't know if they know. what it is yet i don't care if they do. but but that one thing worked and. basically you keep fighting until. something works. exactly it's a survival issue and it's a. survival issue it's just i think because. it's kind of so slow-moving you might. even forget it's progressive. you or you know you could easily just. think that you're just a kind of bummed.

out person or you start thinking that. these aspects of your. psychology are permanent when they don't. have to be. what about other people in your life. what advice would you give to people. that have loved ones who suffer from. depression. what are they to do. okay now this is really like. man it's really dark. here's. number one. this is what somebody told me when i. lost a friend of suicide you know.

because when you lose a friend to. suicide when you lose a loved one to. suicide. you're going to blame yourself it's a. ever like in the in the circ in the. circle in the periphery of suicide there. is a. circumference of guilty people who all. feel like oh if only i'd said this at. the right time if only i'd listened more. if only i'd seen that warning sign or if. only this or that. it's interesting in that. with other. forms of like disease.

you know. if if your loved one. dies from cancer say. more than likely you're not going to be. thinking like oh i should have cured. their cancer you know like you're it's a. tragedy but at least you're not like uh. if only i had you still might think. that's part of grief but um. it's not as sticky in many of the other. situations here the guilt can really. stay for a long time yep. so. you. number one.

it's we're talking about a pro. progressive disease that can lead to. death and if somebody commits suicide. they wanted to commit suicide and at. least what i've been told is you're you. can't stop it it's gonna happen. it's gonna happen there are no magic. words there's nothing you could do so. you know people who've lost people to. suicide you know what i'm talking about. like you know you you can watch it. happen in real time and there's there's. nothing you could do. um. that being said.

you know being. responsive to when it seems like. someone's really reaching out for help. and knowing that maybe. even it though it might if especially if. it's someone who's like doesn't talk. like this a lot of the time and. sentences start coming out of their. mouth. that if you weren't really paying. attention. might not seem like a big deal but for. this person it's kind of a novelist that. all of a sudden. that's happening. now there. that's when you can be a good listener. and you know open up to them and hear.

what they're saying and see like oh shit. are they asking me for is this them. asking for help and even if you're like. i'm i don't know what to do. you know. uh at least you can like. start checking in on them you know start. like. help them understand that you're there. for them and then hopefully get them. into therapy get them to a doctor get. them to a professional who can like see. what's going on there so that and then. there's hope and even then there might. not be hope actually you know doctors. can't stop it there's no.

sometimes it just that's the way it goes. but. you know i know that like um. being sensitive. if somebody's like all of a sudden. hitting you up or reaching out to you. that normally isn't like that. and just what's going on how are you and. just listen which in general. depression or not is probably a good. thing to do. yeah to to to to to truly listen it's. like are you okay yeah yeah. because people have you know i don't.

this whole thing of like cries for help. man they don't sometimes they just look. like a weird text. you know something you don't realize the. for the person to send that fucking text. they've been thinking about it all. morning they've been just trying to get. their fuck get their phone up. from the floor. so you know. i think that that's it i mean i get what. i don't know i don't know i've had. friends like kill themselves so. and uh. many of them it wasn't like. sadly it was like i don't know i don't.

know what could have been done but. but there's still. still a guilt in the back of your head. for the rest of my life for sure always. will be. yeah i mean yeah but again what are you. gonna do you but even that it's a part. of love. that's right that's right yeah that's. right you could yeah you know we feel. guilt gre part of grief is guilt you. know i like you we always could have. been better people. we always could have been better people.

you getting a victor franco much yeah of. course. man search for meaning yeah. the invitation. to. live. your life as though you'd been on your. deathbed. and have been given the chance to go. back and not make the same mistakes. i i returned to that idea all the time. meaning it's like okay whatever you did. before. this moment. was too late. but now. you know this is where you can start.

this is where you can start. and yeah so. i i think that for a neurotic like me. that's super important because otherwise. i'll just get like too lost in the weeds. of shit shitty things i did in the past. so speaking of victor frankl you and. hitler have the same birthday oh my god. you've really done your research. uh well i i often google um. famous people that have a birthday same. as hitler yeah and the the the person.

that shows up you know is your face just. really big. you and hitler together just the pals. next to each other no it does not i'm no. but april 20th is an embarrassing. birthday for all my 420 friends out. there it's embarrassing you share a. birthday with hitler i think it's 420s. also has a humor and an uh a lightness. to it right it's embarrassing. especially life is embarrassing but if. you like weed and you're born on stoner.

day and. you believe in reincarnation. do you realize like when you start. connecting the dots there if there is. like a bardo where you get to choose. your next life so you're like a shitty. generic np npc you're you're like of. course of course you would be born on. 420. it's computer games. yeah. but isn't it interesting that on that. same day. hitler is also born. i don't there's a.

there's attention to that. um and that hitler's an artist. so it's like. that hippie mindset could go anywhere oh. yeah right like what yeah you know and i. i like i was just having this. conversation with a friend of mine who's. a wonderful skeptic. and. we were talking about this uh. which is. the thing where you start attributing. to the day you were born these kind of.

significance and based on maybe people. who were born on that day maybe some. other things and you know it's like. think of how many people by now in the. course of human history have been born. on april 20th i mean. how many someone could probably do the. math and come up with some number close. to it. now. this is how you know how rotten hitler. is like he's the one that like fucks up. every other the birthday for everybody. else but. i think where i heard that you're 420.

is wim hoff. episode because he's also 47 420. yeah. so he. hitler beats even william hoff. look in terms of owning the date i think. if anybody. is is like well obviously there's. nothing you can do do to like fix it. hitler fucked up a lot of things he. fucked up that mustache he fucked up the. name hitler he fucked up 420 and. obviously he caused a horrific holocaust. that by the way talk about these.

reverberations through time that we're. still experiencing there's still people. walking around with fucking tattoos from. that motherfucker so. but you know wim hof. you know people like wim hof there's a. little. they're like. whatever the opposite of hitler is you. know he too is creating ripples in the. lake that hopefully. uh respond to that of hitler yeah a very. cold fucking lake and he's in in and. yeah so very cool. very very cold lake that he's happily. swimming around in but yeah you know i i.

i try not to uh i try not to think about. like the the hitler thing on my birthday. that my dad would just every birthday he. would remind me that but do you think. all of us are capable of evil do you. think you're one of the sweetest people. i know just as a fan do you think you're. capable of evil sure. yeah i mean sure. definitely i think if you don't think. that you better you better watch out. because. come on how do you think you're not.

capable of evil and p.s you are if. you're connected to the supply chain. friend. you're doing evil you're paying taxes. you're like you're supporting the. worst things in the world i mean you. know. like diffusion of responsibility it's. really curious or that there's the. circumference of responsibility where. it's like. bombs are going off somewhere that were. paid for. in some small part. by you by you some fractional if you if.

american if an america if a drone. is flying over. a village in afghanistan and drops a. bomb. and you pay taxes then you could say you. have fractional. ownership over that drunk you're cog in. the machine of evil in some sense you're. in and. i know what you're gonna say well yeah. but i have to fucking pay taxes like i. have no choice there's sales tax there's. this or that. take that attitude.

it's the same thing that people on the. battlefield when they're. sending missiles into other tanks. they're thinking the same thing it's. just they're more directly responsible. for what's going on but in. in buddhism this idea of dependent. uh co-arising uh or yeah dependent. co-rising we're all connected we're all. part of this matrix we're all connected. meaning. we all share responsibility for the evil. in the world so even if you aren't.

directly committing evil acts if you're. seeing something in the world and you're. thinking that's evil. you're probably not quite as separated. from that as you'd like to believe in. some. tiny infinitesimally. quantum way you you're connected so and. there's a sense. i've gotten to experience this. over and over that one individual can. actually make a gigantic difference. in. and so not only is there a diffusion.

responsibility. there's a kind of uh paralysis about. well what can i do yeah. sure i understand but what can i do and. i think. just. looking at history. and also hanging out and. becoming friends but also interviewing. people that have had a tremendous impact. you realize. uh you're just one dude yeah you're like. you're like a normal person now you're. not that smart even like a lot of people.

aren't. like in some kind of magical way where. you have a big head that's figuring out. everything no you. uh you just saw problems in the world. and you're like hey i think i'm going to. try to do something about this yeah you. stay focused and dedicated to it for. prolonged period of time. and refuse to quit refuse to listen to. people that tell you that this isn't. like impossible here's how others have. failed yeah no i'm. gonna i'm gonna do it that's it.

that's it one person and then you kind. of the thing is when there's one person. that keeps pushing forward that way. there's humans are sticky they other. people follow them around and they're. like i'll help. i you know uh i'll help and then the. other people help and then the cool. people all gather together because they. kind of get excited about this way holy. shit we can actually make a difference. and they they form groups and then all. of a sudden there's companies and. nations that actually make a gigantic. difference it's interesting it all. starts with.

one person often you know what if i. could push back slightly against that. it's never just one person it's like you. know. nobody ever talks about at least as far. as i'm aware you never hear about like. buddha's. great-grandmother you never hear about. that you never hear about that but if. not for that person no no buddhism. you know you know the people you're. talking about. they are the mo they're the tip of the. iceberg that pops up out of the. ocean of history and you never see.

the the all the little things that. helped that happen and and so to me. this is where the real like how do how. do you help what's something you can do. well you know recognize that first that. you don't really you don't you might not. even be aware of how much you're. impacting people around you you might. think that that you're not or you might. think sure surely not in a way that. makes a big difference. but you have no idea these tipping.

points and that that can lead to the. emergence of an einstein a gandhi a. martin luther king we can go on and on a. dostoevsky or whoever and so i think. that's where for me it goes back to tend. to the part of the garden. you can. touch and then. or even deeper than that. intention it was just like an uh and i'm. an idiot so i need an idiot's intention. which is. don't. if you. i heard the dalai lama say it.

if you can help. help. if you can't help don't hurt. simple basic. dummy rules so that you can if possible. refrain from hurting which it might as. well be a form of helping. and the help doesn't have to be the. dramatic thing these little acts of. kindness. i don't know they they seem to have uh. maybe i believe in kind of karma but.

they seem to have this. they can have this gigantic ripple. effect. i don't know i don't know why that is i. just i remember a lot of. little acts of kindness that people have. done to me and they they uh what do they. do. uh when they fill me with joy and hope. for the future they give me faith in. humanity. um yeah that somehow there's a uh. partially dormant. desire in our sort of collective.

intelligence to do good in the world. that most of us want to be. uh good that want to do good onto the. world they want there's a kindness. that's kind of like. begging to get out you know. and those little acts of kindness do. just that and actually one of the. reasons i love austin and moved here is. realizing. just just noticing those little acts of. kindness all around me just for stupid. reasons people being really nice. it's it's weird and that that.

that kindness combined with an optimism. for the future. it's just it uh. it's amazing what that can build yes. yes it's incredible and i know what. you're saying it's like. you know we we moved to this great. neighborhood and. at this point i think. three. maybe four of our neighbors have like. made food for us that just shows up with. like handwritten. lists of like things they like to do in.

the area and their phone number if we. need help and it's like. holy shit. that's like. that it might seem like a little act but. it feels like some kind of atomic love. bomb just went off on your porch when. you're looking at that like what the. fuck yeah you made me a a pie. this is incredible like this is. incredible so. and also it's another act to accept that. kindness with a it's like a lot of times. when i was like in boston or san.

francisco certain big cities you can. think like oh okay well they're trying. to like somehow. um. that's not an act of kindness that's. some kind of a transactional thing to. build up a it's like a career move for. networking all that kind of stuff but no. if you just accept it for what it is a. pure act of kindness fucking boston yes. yeah yeah because for me i go the. opposite route because i'm not even. though there is a part of me that might. be a little suspicious or something. where i go.

to to push that shit back mentally is. i'm like i don't deserve this if they. knew yeah what a piece of shit i am. you're gonna bring me i don't never. bring cakes to my neighbors i would know. how to make a cake i don't know how to. make anything i have time i should be. bringing shit to my neighbors why didn't. i do that i should have brought. i never do that. it's okay if you're not careful you can. spiral into a vortex of self-hate from. the gifts you have to yeah you have to. learn how to in in that circuitry. you have to learn how to like.

accept oh yeah i have that problem. really big yeah like like i don't. deserve this. like i don't. i get so much love from people i'm like. well yeah they love me because they. don't know me. that's my brain my little voice like. yeah you're not. you're not worthy. you're not you're not worthy of any of. this uh. kindness and all this kind of stuff and. that could be very uh. yeah it can shut you down it can be. debilitating and also it shuts the.

person down i mean you're talking and. that's that's the dog size it pushes. them away too yeah it cuts off this. fucking mystical circuitry so like the. best thing if that happens to you is. like accept it. joyfully and just eva just all that that. whatever that thing. inside of you whatever that little thing. is you know this is like in the. meditation i do. um it's it's an infuriatingly simple. meditation but um. when a thought emerges when you you are.

resting your attention on your breath. and then inevitably. you think you get lost in your thoughts. and when you catch yourself doing that. you think. thinking. and then return your attention to the. breath so i like that so that when that. part of myself starts you know having. its little neurotic semi-seizure i can. just go thinking. whatever it's just another thought and. then eat the eat the. eat the banana bread or whatever they. gave you. what's the most.

wild psychedelic experience you've ever. had in a dream in a vision doesn't have. to be a drug related. what's um. what's one that jumps to mind that was. like holy shit i'm happy to be alive is. this life okay this is amazing yeah the. oh yeah okay so. the one that pops to mind i've had a lot. of psychedelic experiences but in this. moment the one that pops to mind only. because it goes back to what you're. talking about. about this uh nietzsche's idea of.

infinite return um. the. the uh. so i'm a burning man. and. uh are you going to burning me on this. time i'm not like i mean i have kids. right now i just want to be around them. my wife was being so cool about it and. she knows i love burning man she's like. go to burning man and i was gonna go and. then i just i just want to be around my. kids as much as i can right now but i've. never been to burning man so i don't. know how secretive it is. that i mean because quite high-profile.

folks go yeah everyone knows elon musk. goes there. isn't it pretty open got a boat. you know. you know there's a it's called art cars. they all make art cars and like part of. the. part of the burn what's so beautiful. about it is like. you can't buy anything there man like. you you i'd i've heard. i don't know if this has changed. it's been a bit because of the pandemic. but. the only thing you could buy was ice and. coffee. and i think maybe that's changed i heard.

some whisper that that's changed but. so. that means that. it's a gifting economy is what they call. it and so. people will just give you stuff talk. about having to struggle with deserving. stuff man what are you gonna fucking do. when the camp next to you. is like every morning making the best. iced coffee that you've ever had in your. life and they just you're giving it all. away until it's all gone what are you. gonna do it's. it's the best. ever and then you're giving things to.

people and then you you learn stuff like. you learn these really interesting. lessons like uh. one of the times i went there. got all these uh. strawberries looks might not sound like. a big deal but. when you're out there in the dust and. you're not at one of like the like. hardcore like luxury camps which do. exist out there. you know you've got these like items. where in my mind i'm like yeah these are. going to be just for me and my.

girlfriend my special stash fruit and. this or that and then like. two days in. you're walking around your camp. with the strawberries that you were. coveting and everyone's so happy to get. like cold strawberries and you've. realized oh my god this feels so much. better than the way a strawberry tastes. so you learn. something experientially there uh which. is an incredible thing. it's an incredible thing um man now i'm. wishing i'd decide to go to burning man.

have you been a few times yeah. i just know like. uh at least people were saying it was. elon musk's boat like yeah like this i. think it was like a it's like this. massive it's art cars and it was this. party on this thing you could just. anyone. can go. on the boat like no one's like there's. no guest list. you just go on there i never saw him. there but that you know everyone's. whispering elon musk is here. there's a secrecy there's all that kind. of stuff because you probably have to. respect that but at the same time there.

it seems like the kind of people that go. there. i mean. the the rules of the outside world are. suspended. in the sense that. the um. the crime the aggression. the tensions all that seems to dissipate. somehow not all the way. not all the way there you know there's. you could look it up you know because. like there is tension there's a lot of. tension there between. um.

it's called plug-in plays like you know. burning man like the history of burning. man is. fascinating it has its roots. in. the cacophony society is what it was. called which is a. sort of evolution of something that was. i think it was called the. god like the san francisco basically. there was like an art movement in san. francisco and i can't remember the name. of it maybe the suicide club or. essentially like. they were really into urban exploration.

and uh meaning like breaking into like. old. abandoned buildings and stuff but part. of this. what this was was. you would prepare your life. as though you were going to kill. yourself you would get all your affairs. in order you would get so it's going. back to what we were talking about with. a cancer diagnosis you're like sort of. putting yourself into. that world of like i'm gonna get all my. affairs together so this is it and then.

there was some i'm sorry for anyone. listening if i'm butchering this but i. think there was some really cool. initiation where they would blindfold. you and they would take you into some of. these abandoned buildings and you didn't. know where you were walking but they. would say like if you take one step. to the left you're gonna die. you're gonna fall off you're gonna fall. so please be careful so you're like. in the moment and then blindfold comes. off it's a big awesome party this. evolves into something called the. cacophony society there's a great book. called tales of the cacophony society.

for people listening um. you know one of the uh. members of the cacophony society was the. author of fight club and so if you've. seen fight club like you could see. little ideas that were in the cacophony. society they were into. dadaism which i don't know a lot about. like i don't know it's but it's a. philosophical art movement. um. and then so. basically what was happening is like. they kept burning increasingly large. effigies.

in san francisco. and they weren't allowed to do it and so. they took it out in the desert and. they were basing it on something called. a zone trip which is like you know. across this border. the rules of that old society are gone. and so. that was the original. burning man which was. these lunatics. out in the desert. launching like burning pianos out of. catapults. through the air doing like drive-by.

shooting ranges like. no rules. wild magical beautiful insane madness. and then. it grew and grew and grew and grew until. you have burning man as it is today. which is still the most incredible thing. i mean obviously anytime you have like a. thing that's been around for a while. you're gonna get that it's not like it. used to be it's not as free as it used. to be so this or that but what's. fascinating about burning man someone.

pointed this out to me. look on the ground no trash. no cigarettes. the ethic of like picking up your shit. there is like so intense so it's not. like the other festivals you go to where. there's just trash everywhere shit. scattered everywhere it's clean people. are picking up their stuff. people are like. uh really being conscious of like not. fucking up the playa so i'm sorry don't. open this up and you don't get a burner. yapping about burning man they we won't.

stop it'll be mourning but there's a. power. there but there is a power the culture. uh propagating itself through to the. stories that we tell each other and that. holds up. uh for burning man that like it's clear. that the culture has stayed strong. throughout the years yes so many people. so many. really interesting people. uh. speak of burning man as like a. uh a sacred place they go to to to. remind themselves about what's important.

yes that's so interesting and it is and. it is i mean it's like you know there. are all these stories of like i love. guru stories i have a guru neem crowley. baba never met him he was rambasa's guru. at least not in the flesh but the story. of the guru is if you're lucky. you meet this being that. and we're not talking about you know. whatever the run-of-the-mill like. charlatans out there like i know for. sure that people. are in the world right now who.

uh. when you're around them. you the thing you're talking about the. affirmation of. the potential of humanity and also just. an acceptance of yourself and. you know cultivate like seeing someone. who's cultivated. love or compassion or whatever but in. this way that is. i mean you would almost. you would rather me that being than like. a ufo land in your backyard it's like it.

is the ufo it's a person but it's not. it's. everybody and nobody and somehow they. like. end up. conveying to you. ideas that you may have heard a million. times before but somehow within the. language itself is a transmission that. permanently. alters you and so these people exist. i think you could argue that burning man. the. the total thing.

is a guru that a pilgrimage is involved. to get there. you. like it's not easy to get there and when. you get there. it's. it's going to teach you something. it's going to show you something it's. going to. and what maybe some of the stuff it. shows you might not be great but the. community. around you. will like. will. hold you as your like. whatever the thing is that's coming out. of it is coming out of you and even the.

simplest activities the simplest. exchange of words have uh like just like. with the gurus. a profound impact somehow yeah something. about that place yeah. not to mention the insane. synchronicities like. insane synchronicities here and i think. like you know to get back to the notion. of sentience as a. byproduct of uh. a harmonized yet hyper-complex system um. see i think synchronicities like.

like those kinds of systems are like. lightning rods for synchronicity so. cr crazy not just because your high. synchronicities. happen that are impo that are impossible. where you just have to deal with it and. and like you'll need something and. within a few minutes someone's like oh. here you here you go. and you mentioned but by the way burning. man because of. a psychedelic experience is it the. strawberries. or was it something else. what was what was the moment yeah that.

was magical no it was dmt what. definitely. wasn't strawberries. no no i was more potent. yeah i was like smoking dmt. and. like. i i saw like. if you in the midnight gospel they're. these bovine creatures that have like a. long neck and a lantern head. so like. i i saw one of those things and.

um. and you know i thought it was funny and. like. ridiculous because you hear like all the. terence mckenna stories of. the self-transforming machine elves or. all the. purple or the magenta goddess everyone. sees her i'm like. so this is what i get like. a fucking cow with a lantern head like. that's where my brain is at and. interacting with this molecule.

so then like. i look i look away. and again this is dmt so when i say look. away do i mean with my eyes shut i look. away our eyes open i look away i think i. shut. so it sounds weird to say look away but. however you want to put it that's what i. did. and i look back. and it's still there only now it's you. know because usually in like when you're. having those kinds of visions they go. away pretty quickly yeah this thing's.

like moved. like shambled ahead maybe a few steps. just like a cow it's just like a cow. and then. that was when the. you know all the stories you hear about. it like going through some kind of tuber. or. some kind of light tunnel like a water. slide made of light that's. increasingly familiar that's the wildest. part of it it's like oh i know this. place. not like oh i've seen this in like you. know on like bong stickers but like oh.

yeah this is that place you go to you. just remember oh this place and then. it was like i was in some kind of uh. i don't know how to put it a chamber a. technological chamber some kind of. supercomputer some kind of nucleus that. was technological. and it was inviting there was an. invitation of like. comment like come deeper into come. deeper in. and uh. you can talk to whatever it is over. there you don't talk but there's a.

communication. and i. communicated. but my friends. i don't. i love my friends i guess i had some. sense in that moment that it would mean. complete obliteration or. who knows what and the response that it. gave back was. you can always go back there. and that's when i open my eyes i'm back. totally you know and ever since then. that that's caused me to revise my. my thinking on reincarnation.

the idea that you die and you start as a. baby and then live your life again it. goes right into what we were talking. about i you know that that maybe data. you know that the shit i saw in nitrous. i don't feel dumb that my epiphanies are. all related to drugs but not all of them. are a lot of them but this notion of. like oh. is it that we're. imprinting into the medium of time space. every. thing we do. and that that is a permanent imprint a.

frame that. upon. death. can be accessed in the same way we can. pull up. pictures on our phone or computers. and not only accessed but experienced. as though. in other words you could just jump in. you're still going to have your memories. it's going to give you a. the illusion of having been a kid and. gotten to that frame but no you just. decided to go back there.

nostalgia whatever and. uh yeah you can jump around freely in. space and time yeah yeah you can go in. and out of time space but when you the. problem is when you go into time space. it's time so it's going to feel sticky. it's going to feel like you've been here. forever because you've dropped back onto. the track that nietzsche's talking about. um and uh i guess one of the qualities. of dropping into that frame is that you. forget. your. higher dimensional identity.

what happened to the kyle with the. lantern. was that goodbye. he writes me letters sometimes. [Laughter]. never saw it again never never saw it. again but i put it in we put it in the. midnight gospel you know i like. pendleton was like. such a genius and he was he drew it for. me and then it just ended up as a part. of the show but by the way i uh i have. to admit that as a big fan of yours i. haven't watched the midnight gospel. because i've i've been waiting.

it sounds like you do these stupid. things but ever since you talked to. maybe two years ago with joe. about it i've been waiting to do to to. watch it with like a special person on. mushrooms. oh that's been in my to-do. i don't know of course you don't have to. be on mushrooms to enjoy it but. for some reason i put it into my head. that this is something i want to do with. somebody else like experience it and get. wild. um because visually i mean i watched.

uh a bunch of it just a little bit here. and there. but it's just visually such an. interesting experience. um. combined with everything else obviously. the ideas the avoi the voices and so on. but just visually it's like um. it's like a super psychedelic version of. rick and morty or something like that. like uh you know like farther out while. they're out there so yeah man the the. that's pendleton you know these are. these people i mean like. i was part of that.

um. in the sense that like pendleton. gave ever like one of the reasons he's. like such a genius and great at making. stuff is like he's like. he really does a good job of just like. de-hierarchizing. potential like hierarchies that can. appear you know someone has to be like. driving the bus and that was pendleton. but he lets. he's. so inclusive there's a real punk rock. thing that he's doing which is like. he'll take everything and it kind of. mixes its way into the show but.

one of the things. you know in. animation. it can get really strict with like. drawing the characters and like. the. like. trying to create continuity in the way. the character looks like and it can get. really brute for the animator it can get. brutally. precise like it has to be precise. but he figured out that if you just sort. of.

it's not like obviously like clancy had. to look like clancy through the whole. show but if you allow the various people. animating it to sort of have their own. spin on it then suddenly it creates a. very psychedelic. you know the show looks more psychedelic. because it looks more organic and also. the amount of time. i had no idea the amount of time that. goes into. making. digital art. look like that is it's. insane the amount of work and comping.

that stuff is just. crazy it's crazy well generally the. amount of time it takes. even just like a painting. when you uh i really enjoy watching like. artists do a time lapse and you realize. how much effort just into a single. image. goes into it you know hours and hours. and hours sometimes days sometimes weeks. and months nuts and then you just get to. see them work but they they they lose. themselves in the craftsmanship of it. and the the rhythm of it.

and like because they're focused on the. so we're talking about robotics earlier. like on the little details like they're. never look well. most of the time isn't spent looking at. the big picture of the final result it's. looking at the little details yeah and. so on and they're but they're. nevertheless able to somehow. constantly channel the big picture the. final result my god yeah yeah the. respect i have for animators it's like. dear god the it's the craziest thing. when you watch it when you see what it.

what it looks like and how much. time goes into it and how zen they have. to be because like no matter what you're. gonna have to cut stuff man and when. you're cutting like a few seconds of. animation that was someone's like month. maybe yeah you know and like they they. they understand but still it's like whoa. it's brutal and so the. they they have like this. zen. outlook on it which is really cool and. they watch podcasts that's the other. cool thing when you realize like oh. they're listening to podcasts or like.

that's really cool. to see that aspect of it too but yeah. man i. you know yeah your voice is in the ears. of a lot of interesting people it's not. yours too. hello interesting person. animators. uh eating delicious food in the. cafeteria. i'm on your side he's against you i'm. with you yeah. uh do you have you have a beard. therefore you must be wise do you have. advice for young people. high school college.

about how to carve their path through. life how to have a life. a career. that's successful that they can be proud. of or a life they can be proud of man. see this is what kind of this is what. sucks. about. my life is that it's been very. random. and very spontaneous so unfortunately i. don't get. that thing where i could be like well. here's what i did yeah because it's like. i don't like i.

i inherited. twelve thousand dollars from my. grandmother here's what you do kids you. inherit twelve thousand dollars when. your grandmother dies and then you need. to be dumb enough to think that that. twelve thousand dollars is gonna help. you live in la for a year so then what. you do is you move to la with twelve. thousand dollars. and you find a shitty. place that you live at and then you use. that money to buy acid and synthesizers. and then you run out of the money and. then.

you and then you have to get a job. and so then because you think it'll be. fun to work at a comedy club. you get a job at the comedy store and. then. you know that's how it happened for me. and none of there wasn't i never was. never had the confidence to be like oh. i'm going to be a stand-up comedian. no way i just thought it'd be cool to. work in that building i thought the. building looked cool and so. but then like because like you work at. the comedy store you get stage time it's. there. it's the reason like yours you work.

there is at least in those days because. it's not like they're paying like a shit. ton of money for you to answer phones at. a comedy club. and so. you know i started going on stage and. then like i just got lucky. because rogan saw me have like a very. rare good set i didn't know he was in. the room or out of bombed you know and. then like because he thought i was funny. and he liked talking to him he started. taking me on the road with them and then. you know so i don't know man i i think.

uh. was there an element to there's a. beautiful weirdness to you as a human. being. was there was there uh. like a pressure to conform ever. to hide yourself from the world. or or the the twelve thousand dollars. and the ass would give you the. confidence you needed to be yourself no. no i don't like i instill i'm no i i. think. sure there's that pressure and like you. know. whenever you're you're beginning to.

really differentiate from your parents. but then you go back to hang out with. your parents you'll feel you can feel. that it's not like they even want you to. conform but you'll just you could slip. into that whatever that was so i. remember that when i would go back and. like. visit them and stuff and surely. conformity or the pressure to like. not be individual or whatever it's. everywhere man do you think you made. your parents proud.

no no no no well i think that um. when my mom died. i i felt successful in the sense that i. was. able to. support my i was i was making money from. doing stand-up in my i didn't need help. i was like as i was supporting myself. with art and doing good what i thought. was great then so. and i think she like had because she had. witnessed. me literally failing i mean which is by.

the way i think part of if you want to. be. an artist or successful you you kind of. have to fail like there if if. and if there was a guaranteed. route from. sucking to not sucking or from. like. the neophyte phase of whatever the art. form is and you know some intermediary. phase then i think a lot more people. would do it but. there really is no guarantees in it.

especially the stand-up comedy it's like. you'd have to be a maniac to want to. think that that's going to work out for. you you have to so you're going to. there are obviously exceptions but. for me it was like. a long slog. you know and that's scary for a mom so. but that being said. when she was. dying like she did recognize that i was. like not slogging anymore and she did.

say. she said you did it. and. that's cool but. and you know i would love for her to see. me now like now it'd be way cooler but. maybe she does i don't know she's. listening to. your podcast elsewhere in the other. in the bardo. yeah. yeah however long that lasts. reconfiguring the whole process to start. again. um you're as a father now how did that. change you. yeah that's the big change man that's.

the thing you made you made a few. biological. i reproduce yeah i made biological. entities i mean like what came in my. wife let's face it like i would love to. say i made them but the womb whipped. them up um. but. it is the. yeah it's the best it's i've never. experienced anything like it. before it is the. as far as i'm concerned the greatest. thing that has ever happened to me and. and that's why i was able to answer your. niechi question with like hell yes fuck.

yes that's great i get to be around my. kids again i'll always be around my kids. always be around my children. that's incredible that's the joy so like. so for me. the part of myself that used to torture. myself more especially like around like. my mom dying feeling like i wasn't that. there enough for her wishing that i had. spent more time with her wishing i'd. spent more time with my dad wishing that. like. you know looking back at like how like i.

was just so desperately trying to evade. the fact that she. was dying. uh. and through and in that evasion. successfully like distanced myself from. her and like. in ways that i really wish i hadn't uh. i'm just saying that cause like it's one. of my regrets it's like a big regret i. have a lot of little regrets but that's. a big one and so. when you have.

kids. you look back. at everything you did and you think like. fuck. if i'd gone left at that point instead. of right. if i had eaten who knows what if i'd. eaten like a turkey sandwich. when my balls were. creating the cum. that was gonna make my kids would i have. a different kid. would this being not exist in my life. like you start looking at everything and.

you realize like. oh thank god thank god for every single. thing that happened to me because it all. led up to this and oh for me that is the. that's. that it's like. it frees you in this it liberates you. because you realize like oh wow it's. clumsy and selfish and. and and at times rotten. if i've as i've been in my life. that did not impede.

the universe. at all from allowing this these two. beautiful beings to exist in the world. so maybe all of it enabled all of it. like a concert. perfectly led up to that. little beautiful moment. is there ways. you would like to be a better father oh. yeah for sure absolutely i there's a. there's an actual. i read something in a book it's called.

good enough the mantra for a parent. good enough because when you are in the. presence of something you love. more than. you've ever experienced love. you. you want to be perfect like you wanna be. i can't i gotta work man i gotta go on. the road i've gotta work i gotta support. the family so i that means i have to. work like. i work you know you know what it's like. having a podcast you fucking work man. and. uh. you know it's a full-time job because.

you know i do stand up too and all the. other stuff so i feel. so sometimes i i feel like oh my god i. want to spend more time with him like i. should be spending more time with him. but then also. i want to create i want to work i i like. being like. the provider. so. that's something i i feel guilty about. you know right now and struggling how to. balance that correctly. and meanwhile time just marches on.

it just goes it goes. and all of this. will be forgotten. both you and i. but forgotten. in time that's what i say to them every. time i'm putting them to bed. we. we will be lost in the sands of time you. know that i bet you know this poem you. know that poem ozzy mandius yes. can i read you a plot. okay. let's let's end our conversation in the.

poem i love it it's by. pierce by shelley probably. mispronouncing the name. but i think the right way to pronounce. it thank you thank you. um. i'm ozzy mandius i met a traveler from. an antique land who said. two vast and trunkless legs of stone. stand in the desert near them on the. sand half sunk as shattered visage lies. whose frown and wrinkled lip and sneer.

of cold command. tell that its sculptor well those. passions read which yet survive stamped. on these lifeless things the hand that. mocked them and the heart that fed and. on the pedestal these words appear. my name is ozymandias king of kings look. on my works ye mighty and despair. nothing beside remains around the decay. of that colossal wreck boundless and.

bare the lone and level sands stretch. far away. all gone. behold the the king look at my works ye. mighty and despair. and despair. uh even though we'll be forgotten in the. sands of time. duncan i'm just so glad that you exist. and you put so much love into the world. over the past many years that i've. gotten a chance to enjoy it by being. your fan.

thank you so much for continuing that. and for sharing a bit of love with me. today can we be friends let's be friends. in real time in the real world in 3d. space nothing is real but yes in this. particular slice of the. multi-dimensional world we live in. it will be an honor and a pleasure thank. you for having me on your show love you. duncan i love you thank you lex. thanks for listening to this. conversation with duncan trussell to. support this podcast please check out. our sponsors in the description. and now let me leave you with some words. from duncan trestle himself.

you are essentially just a cloud of. atoms. that will eventually be aerosolized by. time. thank you for listening and hope to see. you next time. you.