Douglas Murray: Racism, Marxism, and the War on the West | Lex Fridman Podcast #296

i think that some people are. deliberately trying to completely clear. the cultural landscape of our past in. order to say there's nothing good. nothing you can hold on to no one you. should revere you've got no heroes the. whole thing comes down who's left. standing oh we've also got this idea. from the 20th century still about. marxism. and no. no. you will not have the entire landscape. deracinated. and then the worst ideas tried again.

the following is a conversation with. douglas murray author of the madness of. crowds gender race and identity and his. most recent book the war on the west how. to prevail in the age of unreason. he's a brilliant fearless and often. controversial thinker who points out and. pushes back against what he sees as the. madness of our modern world. i should note that the use of the word. marxism and the west in this. conversation refers primarily to.

cultural marxism and the cultural values. of western civilization respectively. this is in contrast to my previous. conversation with richard wolff where we. focused on marxism as primarily a. critique of capitalism and thus looking. at it through the lens of economics and. not culture. nevertheless these two episodes stand. opposite of each other with very. different perspectives on how we build a. flourishing civilization together.

i leave it to you the listener to think. and to decide. which is the better way. this is the lex friedman podcast to. support it please check out our sponsors. in the description and now dear friends. here's douglas. murray. you recently wrote the book titled the. war on the west. which in part says that the values ideas. and history of western civilization are. under attack so let's start with the. basics historically and today what are.

the ideas. that represent western civilization the. good the bad the ugly i actually don't. get stuck on um. definitions precisely because as you. know once you get stuck on definitions. there's a possibility you'll never get. off yes. um. i'd say a few things firstly obviously. the western tradition is a specific. tradition this specific tradition of. ideas culture. well known to be perhaps easily defined. by the combination of athens and. jerusalem.

the world of the bible. and the world of ancient greece and and. indeed rome. uh. effectively creates west it creates. european civilization which itself. spawns the rest of the western. civilizations america canada australia. new zealand and others. but these are the main countries that we. still refer to as the west um so there's. a specific tradition and all the things. that come from it. uh. my shorthand cheat on this answer is to.

say um you know when you're not in it. so if you've ever been to beijing. shanghai. you know you're not in the west. somewhere else you know you're not in. the west. when you're in tokyo. somewhere extraordinary but you know. you're not in the west uh obviously. there are. um let's say borderline questions like. it's russia in the west. um. which i sort of leave open as a question. um.

possibly if you were placed into moscow. blindfolded and you woke up. and you couldn't hear the language or. maybe you didn't know what the language. sounded like would you would you guess. you were in the west uh or not i think i. was somewhere near it. think getting closer. i mean you know it's it's this is what. tulsa asks the question doesn't it. whether it's european. and i think the answer to that is. not really although massively influenced. by europe but. um and times wanting to reach towards it. at times wanting to stay away but.

um but a part of the west possibly yes. um. but anyway it's a very specific. tradition it's it's it's one of the. number of. major traditions in the world and um. because it's hard to define doesn't mean. it doesn't exist you know. are there certain characteristics and. qualities about the values and the ideas. that define it is. is the type of rule the type of. governmental structure yes. i mean the rule of law uh property.

owning democracies um. and much more i mean these are of course. things that were ended up being. developed in america and uh then given. back to much of the rest of the west. um. i'd say there are other. um. perhaps more controversial attributes i. would give to the west one is a ravenous. interest in the rest of the world. which is not shared of course by every. other culture um. the late uh philosopher george steiner. who said he could never get out of his.

head the haunting fact that the boats. only seemed to go out from europe. you know they didn't the explorers the. the the the scholars the linguist that. the people who wanted to discover. other civilizations and indeed even. resurrect ancient civilizations and lost. civilizations these were scholars that. were always coming from the west to. discover this elsewhere by contrast you. know there were never boats coming from. egypt to help the anglo-saxons discover. the origins of their language and so on.

so i think there is a sort of ravenous. interest in the rest of the world which. can be said to be a western attribute. although it of course also has one. should immediately preface it some. downsides and many criticisms that can. be made up on the consequences of that. interest. um because of course it's not entirely. lacking in self-interest. so it's not just the scholars it's also. the armies the armies and they're. looking to gain access and control over. resources elsewhere markets and enhance.

the imperial. imperative exactly to conquer to expand. although that itself of course is a. universal thing i mean no uh. no um. the civilization i think that we know of. doesn't try to gain ground from its. neighbors where can it withstand ability. to go further faster um. certainly gave an advantage in that. regard do some civilizations get. a bit more excited by that kind of idea. than others possible it's possible.

because it you could say it's the. western. civilization because the technological. innovation was more. um efficient yeah doing that kind of. thing absolutely but maybe he wanted it. more too. well the ottomans wanted it an awful lot. and did very terribly well. for many centuries and shouldn't forget. that. um. as did others um. i'd also say by the way and again it's a. it's a very broad one but it's worth. throwing out i think self-criticism. um.

is. an important attribute of the western. mind. uh one that as you know is not common. everywhere. not all societies allow even their most. vociferous critics to become rich. so you know criticism is a negative. sounding word it could be. self-introspection. self-analysis. self-reflection and it can be what you. need. you know and in the western system i'd. argue that one of the advantages of the. system of representative governance is.

that. where there are problems in the system. you can. um attempt to sort them out by peaceable. means. um. we listened to arguments i mean most. famously in america in the late 20th. century the civil rights movement. achieved its aims. by force of moral argument. and persuaded the rest of the country. that it had been wrong. um that's not common in every society by. any means. so i think there are certain attributes. of the western mind that you could say.

are um. they're not entirely unique but they are. not as commonplace elsewhere. what about the emergence in hierarchies. of asymmetry of power. most. visible most drastic in the form of. slavery for example. well i mean everyone in the world is. slavery so i don't regard it as being a. western the unique western sin. it's rather hard to think of a. civilization in history that didn't have. slavery of some kind one of the oddities. of the western ignorance of our day.

is that people seem to imagine that our. societies in the west were the only ones. who ever engaged in any vices. alas this isn't true it's a sort of. russoian mistake. or at least one that's blossomed since. rousseau that uh everybody else in the. world was born into sort of udanic. innocence and only we in the west had. this sort of evil in us that caused us. to do bad things to other people. slavery was engaging by everyone in the. ancient world of course and and through.

most of the modern world as well of. course there are 40 million slaves in. the world today so it's clearly not. something that the species as a whole. has a problem with. um that's more slaves of course than. there were in the 19th century. um. and i'd say. on top of that that you know the. interesting thing about the western mind. as regards to slavery is that we were. the civilization that did away with it. and and by the way the the founding. fathers of america who today are. lambasted routinely.

for being. acquiescent in the slave trade um. engaging in it. owning slaves um. there's not people almost don't even. bother now to recognize the facts that. thomas jefferson george washington all. wanted to see this trade done away with. couldn't hold the country together at. the origins if they'd have made such an. effort. and believed and hoped that it would be. something that would be dealt with after. their time. so the founding ideas had within them.

the notion that we should as a people. get rid of this the opening lines of the. declaration of independence. set up the conditions. under which slavery will be impossible. all men are created equal. once you once you've put that that's. like that's a time bomb. under the under the whole concept of. slavery. that's ticking away. okay and sure enough it detonated. in the next century if we just step back. and look at our.

the human species. what does slavery teach you about human. nature. the fact that slavery. uh. has appeared. as a function of society throughout. human history there are two. possibilities um. one is. it's. what people think they can do when god's. not watching. another is it's what they can do if they. think that god allows it.

really really well put. and um. the fact that they want to do this kind. of subjugation. what does that mean. well i mean it's pretty straightforward. in a way um. there are people who get to work for. free. there's economic in nature in some in. some states yes but in order to do it i. mean almost always uh there are dif. there are some examples in the ancient. world where this wasn't the case but. almost always it had to be a subjugated. people or people regarded as different.

one of the things actually i've tried to. sort of inject into the. discussion through this book among other. things is is a recognition that. there was there were very major. questions still going on in the 18th and. early 19th century the one resolved. which were one of the. reasons why slavery was not as morally. repugnant to people then as it was to us. now as it is to us now and that's the. question of polygenesis and monogenesis. um. at the time of thomas jefferson the. founding fathers were were thinking and.

working. they didn't know. because nobody knew. whether the human races were related or. not um. the there was there were arguments the. monogenesis argument that that we were. all indeed from the same racial stock. apollogenesis argument was that we. weren't we were. you know black africans ethiopians. they were often referred to at the time. um. because they provided some of the first. slaves um were different from white.

europeans simply not related in any way. and that makes it easier of course that. makes it easier to enslave people if you. think they're not your brother. am i my brother's keeper no he's not. your brother. uh. and. there's. it's it's a it's a very. it was a very troubling argument in the. in the 18th and 19th century also. because there was a biblical question it. threw up it threw up a theological. question which was. i mean.

people were literally debating this at. the time. um. was there also a black adam and eve. was there as it were in india now adam. and eve the native american adam and eve. i mean this was a serious theological. debate. because they didn't know the answer and. it i mean people say that darwin. um. solved this it wasn't just darwin of. course but. by the late 19th century the argument. that we were not.

all related. as human beings had suffered so many. blows that. you had to really be very very ignorant. deliberately willfully ignorant to. ignore it by that so it no longer was. after darwin a theological question it. became a moral question it was already a. moral question but it clarified darwin. clarifies it definitely and then you're. in the same in a situation of you're not. subjugating some other people you're. subjugating your own. kin. and and. that becomes morally unsustainable.

so. given that slavery in america is part. is part of its history. how do we incorporate into the calculus. of. um. policy today. social discourse. what we learn in school. we can look at slavery in america we. could look at maybe more recent things.

like uh in europe the. other atrocities the holocaust. how do we incorporate that in terms of. how we create policy how we treat each. other all those kinds of things. what is the calculus of integrating the. atrocities the injustices of the past. into the way we are today. that's a very complex question because. it's a it's a moral question at this. point. and a moral question long after the fact.

um. i say at one point in the war in the. west that the argument for instance on a. reparations now that goes on and it's. not a not a fringe argument anymore some. people say oh you're pulling up this. fringe argument it really isn't i mean. every contender for the democratic. nomination. for the. the presidency in 2020 was willing to. talk about the. possibility of reparations some very. eager. that this country america. goes through that. entirely self-destructive exercise. um.

i say that there's a there's a lot of. problems with this but if i refine it. down to one thing i'd say this. um it's no longer about a wealth. transfer from one group of people who. did something wrong to another group of. people who were wronged. it would have been it would have been. that could have been that 200 years ago. today it's not even the descendants of. people who did something wrong giving. money to people who were the descendants. of people who were wronged. it's a wealth transfer from people who. look like people who did a wrong thing. in the past to another group of people. who resemble people who were wronged.

that's impossible to do i'm. completely clear about this. there is no. way. in which you could organize such a. wealth transfer. uh on moral or practical reasons america. is filled with people who are. um. have the same skin color as us for. instance who have no connection to the. slave trade and should not be. made to pay money. to people who have some connection.

and then the country is also filled with. ethnic minorities who have come after. slavery who would not be. um. due for any. reimbursement as it were. the problem the problem with this is. though is that. there are. i'm perfectly open to the possibility. that there are. um residual inequities that exist in. american life. and that's and that the consequences of. slavery could be one of the factors that. resulted from this.

the thing is i don't think it's it's a. um. i don't think it's a single issue answer. i think it's a multi-dimensional issue. something like black underachievement in. america is obviously a multi-dimensional. issue. much of the left and others wish to say. it's not it's only about racism. and they can't answer why. asians who've arrived more recently. don't for instance get held down by. white supremacy but actually i say white.

supremacy in. quotes obviously yeah but don't get held. back by it but actually flourish to the. extent that asian americans uh have a. higher household earnings and higher. house household mean um. uh. uh equity than. home equity and so on than than white. americans. uh so i don't think that on the merits. the evidence is there that you know. racism is the explanation for black. ongoing black underachievement in some.

sections of the black community in. america. it's obviously a part of it could you. say that even those things like. fatherlessness and. similar family breakdown issues. are a long-term consequence of it. possibly but it's it's being awfully. generous to people's. ability to make bad decisions. for instance how many generations of the. holocaust would you allow. people to claim that everything that.

went wrong. in the jewish community was as a result. of the holocaust. i mean is there some kind of term limit. on this i would have thought so. and i think most people probably think. that's over. i think the details matter they're the. and. um but it's very difficult. oh i enjoy swimming out in the ocean so. although i'm terrified of what's lurking. underneath in the darkness you're right.

you're right to me. um okay it's really complicated calculus. with the holocaust of. so the argument in america is that. there are. there's deep institutional racism. against african americans that's rooted. in slavery. and. so however that calculus turns out that. calculation it still persists.

in the culture and the institutions. in the allocation of resources in the. way that we communicate in in this in. subtle ways in major ways all that kind. of stuff. um how is it possible to win or lose. that argument of how much institutional. racism there is that's rooted in. in slavery is it a winnable it's it's an. unquantifiable argument. um and i'd i'd. i'd like to apply some shortcuts to some. of this the following.

are for instance all. um. let's take the the one that's most often. often cited. if a white person is walking down a. street in america and they see a group. of young black men coming towards them. and it's late at night and they cross. the road is it because of slavery. is it because of institutional racism. no it's because they've made a calculus. based. not entirely. on.

um unfounded. beliefs that. given crime rates. it's possible that. this group of people might be a group of. people they don't want to meet late at. night. that's. an ugly fact but. as crime statistics in american cities. after american cities bear out. um. it's not an entirely unreasonable one. it's not reasonable every time obviously. obviously. but is it attributable to slavery.

that's a stretch. if you're in a. city like chicago where the homicide. rates. shot up in the last two years. albeit again as has always has to be. remembered mainly black on black uh gun. violence and knife violence. nevertheless if you're in a city like. chicago. and you make that calculus i've just. suggested the the the the cliched one.

the street late at night. there are other factors other than a. memory of slavery. that kick in. um. and i'm afraid it's uh. it's something which people don't want. to particularly acknowledge in america. for obvious reasons because it's the. ugliest damn debate in the world. but i was actually just writing the what. in my column in new york post today. about a. a very interesting case it sort of. similar which is the. the um question of obesity in the us. as you know um america is the most.

overweight country in the world. uh america has i think um 40 of the. population is. obese. in medical ways and the nearest next. country is a long way down that's new. zealand at 30 percent of the population. so america is a long way ahead. why during the cronovirus era when we. know that obesity. is the one clearest factor that's likely. to lead to your hospitalization if you. also get the virus. why did almost no public health. information in america focus on obesity.

80 percent of the people who ended up. hospitalized in america from with. coronavirus were obese. we locked the schools when there was no. evidence that the coronavirus was deadly. for children. we all wore cloth masks when there was a. very little evidence this was. much use in stopping the spread of the. virus. we had massive evidence about obesity. being a problem and we never addressed. it why is it just because we worried. about fat people no it's actually. because about fat shaming as well no.

it's also because to a great extent it's. a racial issue in america as well and. actually i quoted this new publication. from the universe university of chicago. as it happens which makes that claim. explicit says the reasons why people are. have views that are negative about. obesity is because of racism and slavery. this is what everything is drawn back to. america anything you want to stop you. say it's because of racism it's because. of slavery how about. it's actually because. you mind.

the hospitals getting clogged up you. mind people dying your mind ethnic. minorities disproportionately dying. and you'd like to say something about it. once again as in everything in america. it's cut off by some. poorly educated academic saying it's. about slavery. so we're really not i mean this requires. a kind of form of brain surgery to. perform it on a society probably one. that's not possible without killing the. patient. and. it's being done by people who.

are wearing like. mittens. so i'm sure that there's a few folks. listening to this. that are rolling their eyes and saying. here we go again two white guys. talking about. the lack of. institutional racism in america. first of all what's your. what would you like to tell them. so. our african-american friends who are.

looking at this and i've gotten a chance. to talk to a bunch of them on clubhouse. recently clubhouse is the social app. yeah yeah i know and i really enjoy an. absolute zoo of an app as far as i can. see it i personally love it because you. get to talk to as somebody who's an. introvert and doesn't socialize much i. enjoy talking to. people from all walks of life. so it got gave me a chance to first of. all practice russian and ukrainian to. get the chance to do that then you get a. chance to talk about israel and.

palestine with people who are. uh from. that part of the world and you get to. hear raw emotion of people from the. ground where they start screaming. they start crying they start being calm. and collected and thoughtful and. this is as if you walked into a bar. with custom picked regular folks. in quotes regular folks just people that. have. quote lived experiences. real pain real hope real emotions biases.

and you get to listen to them go at it. with no. because it's an audio app you're not. allowed to start getting into a physical. fist fight. so even though it really sounds sounds. like people want like it's happening. yeah and so you get to really listen to. that feeling and for example it allows a. white guy like me. from another part of the world coming. from. uh the former soviet union to go into a. room. with a few hundred uh african americans.

screaming about. joe rogan using the n-word oh yeah and i. get to really listen there's very. different perspectives on that in the. african-american community and it's. fascinating to listen so i don't get. access to that by sort of excellent. books and articles and so on you get. that real raw emotion and i'm just. saying there's a few of those folks. listening to this. with that real raw emotion and they one. argument they say. is you.

douglas murray and you lex freeman don't. have the right. to talk about race and racism in america. it is our struggle you are from a. privileged class of people that don't. don't know what it's like. to be a black man or woman in america. walking down the street. can you steal man that case. first of all fuck that. okay that's not listen i think we need. to define steel. steel manic okay can you try i know what.

this is um. i really resent that form of. argumentation sure i really resent it. i have the right to talk about whatever. the hell i want. and no one's gonna stop me or try to. intimidate me yeah or tell me that i. can't simply because of my skin color. and i think that if i said to somebody. else the other way around it would be. equally reprehensible. if i said shut up you have no right to. criticize anything that douglas murray. says because you've not got my skin. color. okay it's not an exact comparison but.

seriously is that a is that a reasonable. form of argument. uh you haven't been through everything. i've been through in my life therefore. you can't comment no in that case nobody. can talk about anything we might as well. pack up go home and isolate ourselves. strong words but can you try to steal me. on the case not in this particular. situation but there's. people. that have lived through something. that can comment in a very specific way. like for example holocaust survivors yes.

there is a sense in which maybe a basic. sense of civility. when a holocaust survivor is speaking. about their experience of the holocaust. then. an intellectual. from a very different part of the world. that's simply writing about. uh nuanced geopolitics of world war ii. just. should not interrupt the holocaust. survivor we physically interrupt them if. they're telling their stories. with logic.

and reason that the experience of the. holocaust survivor somehow fundamentally. has a deeper understanding of the. humanity. and the injustice of the first of all. again when even deeper water is now but. in terms of wanting to listen to another. person who has experienced something yes. yes. but not endlessly. not endlessly. i mean there are some people who've. written about i mean there are people. who've written about the holocaust who.

didn't experience the holocaust and have. written about it better than people who. did. it's it's not. this this this idea that the lived. experience to use this terrible modern. jargon as if there's another type. this this this idea that the lived. experience has to triumph over. everything else is is not always correct. it can be correct in some circumstances. if you are sitting in a room with a. holocaust survivor and somebody who'd. never heard about the holocaust and. wanted to kind of you know shoot out.

their views on it. yeah one of those people should be heard. more than the other obviously obviously. if there's somebody who's experienced. racism first hand and there's somebody. else who has never experienced it. then obviously you'd want to hear from. the person who has experienced it. firsthand if that is the discussion. underway. i i don't think that it's the case that. that is endlessly the case. i'm also. highly reluctant to concede.

that there are groups of people who by. didn't of their skin color or anything. else. get to dominate the microphone now of. course we're literally both speaking to. microphones at the moment so there's an. irony to this but let's skate over the. irony. what i mean is people saying you don't. have the right to speak i have the right. to take the microphone from you and. speak because i know best. fine. if you know best we'll argue it out. and someone will win. long or short term.

but the. the um. the the almost aggressive tone in which. this is now leveled i don't like the. sound of. nobody's experience is completely. understandable by another human being. nobody's. and what many people are asking us to do. at the moment us collectively is. to fall for that thing i think it was. camille faster who said it first but. i've um adopted it in recent years is to. say you must spend an inordinate amount.

of your life trying to understand me. personally my lived experience. everything about me you should dedicate. your life to trying to do that. simultaneously you'll never understand. me. this is not an attractive invitation. this is this is a an unwinnable game. so if somebody if somebody has a. legitimate. um. and an important point to make they.

should make it and they will win through. whatever their character is whatever. their race and by the way there are. plenty of white people who experience. racism as well there are plenty of white. people who do. and have done and increasingly so which. is one of the things i write about from. the war in the west i mean i i would. argue that today in america the only. group you're actually allowed to be. consistently. vilely racist against the white people. if you say disgusting things about black. people in america in 2022 you will be. over you will be over.

if you decide to talk about people's. white tears their white female tears. their white guilt their white privilege. their white rage and all these other. pseudo-pathologizing. you'll be just fine you could be the. chairman of joint use of staff. you could lecture at yale university. absolutely fine and the white people. have to suck that up. as if that's fine because there was. racism in another direction in the past. so white people can have racism as well. does that mean that i think that i have.

a right or other white people have a. right to dominate the discourse by. talking about their feelings of having. been victim victims of racism no not. particularly because what does that get. us it gets us into an endless cycle of. competitive victimhood am i saying that. white people who've experienced violence. have experienced historically anything. like the violence that was perpetrated. against black people in america. historically obviously not but. you know. what kind of competition do we want to. enter here.

and. this is very very important terrain now. in america because there's one other. thing i have to throw in there which is. how do you work out the sincerity of the. claim. how do you work out the sincerity of the. claim being made. at one point uh in my book in this. latest book i referred to. a very useful bit in them in nature and. genealogy of morals. where as you know nietzsche always has. to be treated carefully you know when. people say um i love nietzsche.

which bits. [Laughter]. what exactly do you love about him. but um. a lot and a lot can be learned from the. answer. uh but there are moments in junior area. tomorrow that was very useful for this. book. one of them was the moment when. nietzsche uses a phrase that i've now. stolen for myself appropriated you might. say. um. where um where he refers to people who. who tear at wounds long since closed and.

then cry about the pain they feel. now. how do you know. how do you know whether the pain is real. how do you know. i'm not saying you can never know. but it's hard so when somebody says i. feel that my life hasn't gone that well. and it's because of something that was. done to my ancestors 200 years ago. maybe they do feel that. maybe they're right to feel that.

maybe they're making it up. maybe they're using it as their reason. for failure in life. maybe they're using it as their reason. to not even try. maybe they're using it as their reason. to. smoke weed all day. i don't know. and who does know how can you work that. out. and that's why i come back to this thing. of who are we. to constantly judge in this society. other people who we don't know. and attribute motives to them based on. on racial or other characteristics.

and as you write in this part. [Laughter]. i like your uh pro cultural. appropriation of nietzsche. uh and at the same time canceling uh. nietzsche. um in the same set of sentences but you. write in this part about evil. no i didn't cancel nietzsche. wow can't cancel nature like i'm saying. i'm saying treat him carefully to him. carefully fair enough. but you can judge.

a man's character by which parts of. nietzsche he um. he quotes fair enough. i think when you meet people who do man. and superman a bit too much. now you're pulling in even deeper water. referencing hitler here. okay. so you write in this part of the book. about evil. uh. quote what is it that drives. evil. many things without doubt but one of. them is identified by several of the.

great philosophers is resentment. that sentiment is one of the greatest. drivers for people who want to destroy. colon blaming someone else for having. something you believe you deserve more. and you're saying. this kind of resentment. we don't know. as it surfaces whether it's genuine or. if it's. uh used to sort of play games of power. to evil ends. um. can you speak to this.

to this this because it's just a. fascinating idea. that. one of the biggest drivers of evil in. the. world is resentment because if you look. at. boy if you look at human history if you. look at hitler. uh so much of the propaganda so much of. the narrative was about resentment. does that surface there's a level or is. that deep there is that computer it can. be any of the above. let's first of all preface it everybody. has resentment.

i mean i just i use the term horizontal. which is thought very similar to present. let's stick with resentment. so we don't sound too pretentious. um. the. let me give you a quick example of. somebody in our own day who has who has. a form of resentment vladimir putin. did you see navalny's documentary. putin's palace. yes yeah. you remember the stuff about uh putin as.

a young kgb officer in germany. from the stuff about putin his first. wife's resentment of one of his kgb. colleagues who had a an apartment that. was a few meters bigger than the putin's. apartment. yeah it's very interesting and by the. way i'm not saying that. you know vladimir putin became the man. he has become and invaded ukraine. because he didn't have an apartment he. liked him but in berlin or munich. wherever he was this is a distinct. possibility my point is. my point is is that. is that.

resentment is a factor in all human. lives and we all feel it in. in our lives and it's. it's something it has to be struggled. against. resentment is in political terms can be. a deadly i mean it's an incredibly deep. thing to draw upon. and you mentioned hitler obviously one. of the things that hitler. played on was resentment obviously. uh. almost every revolution he does. i mean the french revolutionaries did as. well and we're not without cause.

uh there's a good reason to feel that. versailles was not listening to paris. in the 1780s. and feel resentment for um. marie antoinette in her palace within. the palace. ignoring the bread shortages. in paris. um. so resentment is is a very. it's a very understandable thing and. sometimes it's justifiable and it's also. deadly to the person as it is to the. society. it's an incredibly deep deep sentiment.

somebody else is um got something that. you should have. and the. the problem about it is that it's it has. the potential to be endless. um you can do it your whole life. and one of the ways i've. sort of. sort of found myself explaining this to. people is to say. it's also important to recognize that. resentment is something that can cross. absolutely every boundary. so for instance. it crosses all racial boundaries. obviously and i go without saying.

more interesting is it crosses all class. boundaries and socioeconomic boundaries. and if i was to sort of simplify this. thought i would say. i guess that you and i. and everybody watching. knows or has known somebody in their. lives. who has. almost nothing in worldly terms. and is a generous person a kindly person. a giving person. a happy person even a cheerful person.

and. i think we probably have also or many of. us would have met people who seem to. have everything. and who are filled with resentment. filled with resentment somebody else has. held them back from something their. sister once did something they said she. shouldn't she got this i should have got. that. and and on and on and on. it's a human trait. and. what one of the things that suggests to. me is that we therefore have a choice in. our lives about this this is something.

which we can do something about not. limitlessly. but for instance. i mean there are very good reasons that. some people in their lives might feel. resentment. let's say you're involved in a car crash. and a friend. fell asleep at the wheel and that's why. you are spending the rest of your life. in a wheelchair that's a pertinent. example of this in american politics at. the moment. um. you would be justified in feeling. resentment.

and at some point you have to make a. decision which is am i going to be that. person. or a different person. but even in that case you're saying at. the individual level and that societal. level is destructive to the mind even. when you're quote-unquote justified it. drops you it rots you because. the best you can do. is to eke out your days unfulfilled. so the antidote as you describe is. gratitude yes.

gratitude is the antidote to. evil in a sense. so gratitude is the individual level. into societal level gratitude is. certainly the answer to resentment. i um. i quote in the war in the west this this. when i read it. first time a few years ago i was. absolutely flawed by um. the brothers karamazov uh. not everything in it by the way i won't. get into it but i have i have some very. big structural criticisms of the novel. now now you're just sweet talking to me.

because i'm a does the esky fan but i. appreciate this. oh okay. well we could get into what i see as the. structural flaws in the brothers. carrying out anyway um now i'm i'm. offended and triggered yeah no i mean. this. is coming out of macbeth and saying i. didn't think it was much good yeah. there's structural flaws yeah i thought. the ending stank yeah middle wasn't very. good no. um when i read that that novel i was i. was flawed by a couple of things one is.

one is of course at the moment where we. realize the devil appears. the moment that ivan says to his brother. you you know he visits me and you. realize that he's talking about the. devil whole novel goes into this. totally different space. anyway this is even more than you've. already realized the novels about. and then when the conversation occurs. between the van and the devil remember i. think he says describes him as dressed. as a french friend it's redressed in the.

french style. of the uh early part of the 19th century. very strange the devil will be dressed. like that but sort of. um. and and and if you remember that he and. he's sort of cross-legged and rather a. bane figure. but but the devil mentions impassing. to ivan that um. he says i don't know why. gratitude is not a. uh. an instinct that's been given to me.

and um yeah you're not allowed this is. not. uh given the role of being the devil. this is not one of the things there's no. other thing and you think and of course. only a genius of dostoevsky's stature. could i mean a lesser genius would have. made a whole novel out of that insight. only dostoevsky can just throw it away. because it's such an abundance of riches. that he still has to get through. the structural problems aside but the. the. the uh the passive aggressive.

the the micro aggression in this. conversation. a little knife fight okay no yeah but. but the reason i mentioned this because. of course when i saw it. this this is such a brilliant insight by. darcy because. why why would why would gratitude not be. a sentiment the devil was capable of the. answer is of course. that if the devil was capable of. gratitude he wouldn't be the devil. he'd be somebody else. he has to be incapable of gratitude.

do you think for dostoevsky that was as. strong as an insight as as it is for you. because i think that's a really powerful. idea. that. with gratitude. you you don't get the resentment that. rots you from the core. yes i think it was one of the just. endless things that he saw in us. and. and the way i put it is that i mean i. also think it in think of it in terms of. the the era of deconstruction which is. one of the things i'd like us to call. the era that's now ending.

the era of deconstruction. was the era that started let's say from. the 60s onwards. and was. originally an academic game that then. spilled out into the wider culture which. was. let's take everything apart let's pull. it all apart. um there are lots of problems with it. one is it's quite boring. you don't get an awful lot from it. uh. you also have the problem of what. children find when they try to do this.

with bicycles which is they can take it. apart quite easily but they can't put it. back together. um. and the era of of. taking things apart as a game. is one we've lived through and it's been. highly destructive. but you can do it for quite a long time. i'm going to look at this society and. i'm going to take it apart by showing. systemic problems i'm going to. at the end of that what have you got.

what have you done what have you. achieved. we need to interrogate this okay. interrogate by all means ask questions. but interrogate there's a deliberate his. hostility to this. i'm going to interrogate this thing and. take it apart and again at the end of it. what have you got. whether you're interrogating a text or a. piece of music. or an idea or a society fine. question endlessly question yes. interrogate. assumes it's all um.

a criminal in a cell. and it's guilty. and therefore it must be taken apart. and that's what we've been doing for. decades in the west. and that's resentment that's one. by-product of resentment. you can't build the thing but you know. how to take it apart. is a little bit of resentment. good so you have. you know that i love tom waits and he. has a song where uh a little drop of i.

like my town with a little drop of. poison. is it good to do that. is it good to have a little bit of. poison in your drink. depends what poison is and it depends if. you know not to have another drink. it might be the case you find out some. alcoholics do that one was. too many and 10 is not enough. so there's a natural. in this case. this kind of deconstruction is a. slippery slope it becomes an addiction. it becomes a drug and you just can't.

stop well you have you'd have to wean. yourself off it and try to start. creating again. okay you'd have to start trying to put. things together again. um. [Music]. something. [Music]. i think might be in the throes of. starting as it happens. well. speaking of. taking things apart and not putting them. together again. the idea of critical race theory. [Music]. um can you to me explain so i'm an.

engineer. and have not been actually paying. attention much unfortunately to the. these things none of the people in your. field were until it comes along and. smacks you in the face i you know i i've. had that line of thinking and you know. from mit. i i said well surely whatever you folks. are busy about yelling at each other for. is is a thing at harvard and yale. it's not going to yeah yeah of course. yes people in the stem subjects thought.

it's not coming for us it can't come to. us and bang. well it's. you know it hasn't quite been banged. engineering is more safe than others. yeah uh so not so let's draw a line now. between engineering and science. so. i think engineering is uh i'm uh sitting. in a castle in the tallest tower with. with my pinky out drinking my martinis. saying surely uh the the peasants below. with their biology and their humanities.

we'll. figure it all out no i'm just kidding. there's no there's no pinky out i drink. vodka. and i hang with the peasants okay where. is this this metaphor has gone too far. uh. can you explain. uh to this engineer what critical race. theory is is it a a term that's. definable is there tradition is there a. history what is good about it what is. bad about it is it is a tradition it is. a history as a school of thought it. started in the law uh roughly in the. 1970s and some of the american academy.

uh it's spilled out it always aimed to. be an activist philosophy people deny. that now but as i cite him in the war in. the west and the foundational texts say. as much this isn't this is an activist. academic study. we're not just looking at at the law we. seek to change the law. and it's built out into all of the other. disciplines i think there's a reason for. that by the way which is it happened at. the time that the humanities and others. in america were increasingly weak and.

didn't know what to do and they needed. more games to play on new games to play. the psychologists got bored yeah i mean. that. well they needed tenure and they needed. they needed something to do and i mean. it's not an original observation plenty. of people have made this but i mean neil. ferguson said this some time ago for. instance that. in the last. 50 years in american academia certainly. in humanities departments when some. when somebody dies out as a great. scholar and something that's just not.

replaced by somebody of equal stature. they're replaced by somebody who does. theory. or. critical race theory they're replaced by. somebody who does the modern games. somebody dies out who's a great. historian off say i don't know it's the. ones on my mind um. russian history or russian literature. and they're not replaced by a similar um. scholar his in his observation in in. yours is this a recent development it's. happened the last few decades for sure. and it's sped up did is it because we've.

gotten to the bottom of some of the. biggest questions of history no it's uh. because we're willing to forget the big. questions. because it's more fun to big questions. aren't as fun no partly it's partly no i. should stress apparently isn't it this. is in the weeds but partly as a result. of the hype of specialization in. academia. um. you know if you if you said you'd like. to. write your dissertation on hobbs.

uh if you wanted to e. if you. something central to cancer thought or. or hegel or something i mean that's not. popular. that what's popular is to take somebody. way down the line from that because. there's a feeling that that's all been. done. so you take something way way way down. the line from that that's much less. important and then you sort of play with. that. and i think most people anyone who's. watching who's been in a philosophy.

department or anything else in recent. years will know that. tendency by the way there's a very. practical consequence of this i saw this. at the end of my friend roger scrutin's. life when he um he would occasionally he. didn't get tenure at universities but he. would occasionally be flown in even by. his enemies. to teach courses in various universities. in basics of philosophy because there. was no one in the department able to do. it. like. he would he would he would go in and. teach for a semester. you know.

hegel and kant and schopenhauer and. others because. there was no one to do it because they. were all playing with things way way way. down the road from this. so that had already happened. and people were searching for new games. to play and the critical race theory. stuff forced its way in. partly in the way that all of this. that's now known as anti-racism does. which is in a sort of bullying tone of. saying if you don't follow this the same. way that. all the things that are called studies.

i think everything called studies in the. humanities should be shut down. because of the activist it's an. accomplishment they're all activists. gay studies and queer studies. um. nothing good has ever come from it. nothing good to push back is it is it. obvious that activism is a sign. of a flaw in a discipline so is isn't it. a sign of the death of the discipline. it's a sign that discipline's over. but isn't it a good goal to have for.

discipline to enact change positive. change in the world. or is that to is that that's for. politicians to do with the findings of. of science i mean not why create an. ideology and then set out to find. disciplines that have weakly put. together to try to back up your. political ideology so ideology should. not be part of. of uh of science or of no i mean. humanities why would you.

i mean anyone could do it. you could decide to go in and be. wildly right-wing about something and. only do things that prove your. right-wing ideas. be fantastically anti-academic. fantastically andy science fantastic. it's an absurd way to to mix up activism. and and. and and academia and it's absolutely. rife and critical race theory is one of. the ones that completely polluted the.

academy. yeah and there's been uh dark moments. throughout history both for during world. war ii with both communism and uh nazism. fascism that. um infiltrated science. and then corrupted it yes i mean for. instance also let's face it. this in science as in everything else. there are dark difficult things. it's much better we know about them face. up to them and try to find a way. socially to deal with them. than that you leave them in the hands of.

some activist. who wants to do stuff with them. some of my best friends are activists. i'm just kidding okay yeah none of my. best friends are activists that's how it. should be. well i was kidding because i don't have. any friends but okay all right. now i'm that's not true i'm trying to. get gain some um. pity points okay uh so to return i have. your clubhouse friend. screaming away like deranged maniacs.

now i've got anti-clubhouse by the way. because the only time i heard it was. that brett weinstein one when. he did that i didn't if you heard that. early in clubhouse i was invited to. clubhouse by various people who said oh. this is a really great civilized way to. hang out and talk with interest. interesting people and i like downloaded. the app and i got one night because. brett weinstein said um you know i'm. doing this conversation and i listened. and it was. the maddest damn discussion i've ever. heard was there something about biology. something about. was it. uncovered times all that at some point. brett said i'm an um.

i'm an evolutionary biologist. and somebody else that is saying you're. a eugenicist. and he said no i'm an evil evil issue in. my honesty and sometimes that's the same. thing. and it just went on like that and brett. desperately tried to explain. that's not the same thing as being. eugenicist and he lost the clubhouse. room. they thought that was the same thing. he'd come it horribly reminded me of a. time some years ago in a british. newspaper ran a sort of.

realizing that the only thing you can. unite people on in sexual ethics is. revulsion against pedophilia ran an. antipedo campaign and uh shortly after. um. pediatricians offices were torched in. north of england by a mob who hadn't. read the whole sign. yeah. well to me. um like i said a little bit of poison is. good for the town so anyhow sorry i. interrupted you with flattering you. there people on clubhouse i have many i. have i have.

of multiples of friends yes. um. okay. we didn't get to some of the ideas of uh. critical race theory what what exactly. uh is it i'm actually in part asking. this question quite genuinely yeah it's. it's an attempt to look at everything. among other things through the lens of. race. and to add race into things where it may. not be. as a way of adding i'm trying to give. the most generous. estimation. to add race in as a conversation in a.

place where it may not have been in the. conversation. um. and that means history too the history. oh sure racism yeah yeah yeah. all history. and to look at it through these. particular lenses. um. i mean there's a certain. like all these things there's a certain. logic in it like. like with feminist studies or something. i mean is is there a utility in looking. back through undoubtedly male dominated. histories and asking where the.

the more silent female voice was yes. very interesting. not endlessly interesting and can't be. put exactly on the same. par as. but. it has a utility. um it's that endlessly sorry to. interrupt that endlessly part that seems. to get us into trouble. because of this thing of where do you. stop and that's. that's. that's always a. i looked talked about this in my last.

book in the manners of crowds. it's one of the big conundrums in. activist movements and particularly in. activist academia where would you stop. it's not clear because you've got a job. in it. you've got a pension in it. you've got. your only esteem in society is in. keeping this gig going. why i mean is is there any likelihood. have you ever it's the old academic joke. isn't it that you know the end of every. conference the only thing everyone.

agrees on is that we must have another. conference like this one. so one thing they always agree on this. conference has been so great we must. have another one well that's the. criticism you could apply to a lot of. disciplines of course civil engineering. bridge building. at a certain point do we need any more. bridges can we just fly everywhere. you know. so at the very least you need to keep. the bridges up. sure and they would uh critical race. theory folks would probably make the. same argument at the very least we need.

to keep the racism out. uh we'll have to make sure we don't. descend into uh the racism it assumes. all the time that we are living on the. cusp of the return of the kkk right. which is totally wrong. i mean it's a massive you say that now. until the kkk armies march in we don't. always we can't always predict the. future we can't always predict future. and. you you can always. say you should be careful but.

you've also got to be careful of people. who've got their timing like totally. totally wrong or their estimation of. society they're in you mean like most. of society before in the 1930s. when hitler was i mean so many people. got hitler wrong. i'm sure they did and so most people. some. maybe it was nice to have the alarmist. thinking there well beware of the man. with a mustache. if only it was that easy.

um. it's not always above facial hair i mean. i always say that i mean what what. very often is these two clean shaven. chaps both say. one of the problems of everybody knowing. a little bit about nazism. is that they. think that they know. where evil comes from and that it comes. from like a german with a small. moustache. getting people to goosestep for instance. and that's not correct. a much better understanding of it is it. can come from.

all number of directions. and keep your antennae as good as you. can. but. once you end up in this society which i. would argue certainly parts of america. where you're always in 1938. that's not healthy for a society either. where where people are so primed and. think they're so well trained because. they. spent. a term in school learning about the. second world war in the holocaust think. they're so well trained in hitler.

spotting. that they can do it all the time look at. all these phrases we now have in our. societies like dog whistle. you know as i always say if you hear the. whistle you're the dog. but people say. that that's a dog whistle as if they're. highly trained anti-nazis. i mean you know there should be some. humility in it we should we should be. careful we should be wary for sure. and we should also be slightly humble. in our inability to. to spot everything if not significantly.

humble. right. so if we can. um. there's something. um. funny if not dark about the. the activity of hitler spotting. if i just may take it aside but uh so. critical race theory how much racism. what is racism. how much of it is in our world today.

if we were thinking about this activity. of hitler's plotting. how um. and trying to steal man the case of if. not critical race theory but people who. who look for racism in our world. how much would you say well let's it's a. good thing to try to define i would say. that. racism is the. the belief that other people are. inferior to you you could say you could. see a form where you thought people were.

superior to you that could also happen. but more commonly. you see a group of people as being. inferior to you simply by dent with the. fact that they have a different. racial background. and um. that's sort of the easiest way to define. racism. uh. as i say i mean there are types of. racism i mean mainly anti-semitism. actually perhaps it's the only one. which weirdly. relies on on a hatred of people who.

a certain type of person thinks thinks. are better than them. and that's a particular peculiarity one. of the peculiarities of anti-semitism. well anti-semitism somehow does both. right yes well one of the eternal. fascinating things about anti-semitism. it can do it does everything at the same. time. it's like a quantum racism yes they're. both superior and inferior you know that. you do you know um. vastly grossman's life and fate. so in the middle of life and fate um.

which a persian friend of mine said was. one of only two great novels of the 20th. century she was very harsh literally. critic. what was the other one oh the leopard. obviously. the leopard the leopard of giuseppe de. la producer yeah okay did she definitely. write on that one uh life and fate is is. learning so much today yes life and fate. is a um. is uh an extraordinary book. mainly about. well you know grossman was a um. uh. obviously jewish himself but he uh.

he he saw. uh almost everything that he could have. done in the second voice he saw. stalingrad. who was a journalist and he. he wrote first-hand the account of. stunning groudon he he was also the. first journalist interviewed into. blinker. and his account which you can read in. one of the collections of his journalism. his account of walking into treblinka is. just one of the most devastating. haunting pieces of journalism or prose. you can read anyhow i mentioned him. because grossman at the beginning in the. middle of life and fate which is about.

sort of a 900-page novel. um. in the middle of it which is about the. dark axis around stalingrad. uh. he way at one point he amazingly sort of. goes into the minds of earth hitler and. stalin and. he says he says stalin in his study. feels. his counterpart but then he says he. feels very close to him at this moment. wow around stalingrad like leading up to. after stalingrad when the germans have.

lost he says he feels closeness of. hitler. but grossman in the middle of life and. fate slap bang at the worst hours of the. 20th century. suddenly dedicates a chapter to. anti-semitism. and i've seen anti-semitism something. i've always been very interested in uh. because i've always had. the instinctive utter revulsion of it. and um. uh also partly because of having seen. bits of it.

in the middle east and elsewhere but uh. i mentioned this because grossman in the. middle of life. has takes time out and does this like. three-page explanation. three-page description of anti-semitism. and it's extraordinary i mean it's the. only thing i can think of that's equally. good is um. uh. um. gregor von retz sorry uh um. who who. wrote a luridly titled but um brilliant. set of novels called the confessions of. an anti-semite.

and about pre-war pre-first world war. anti-semitism in eastern and central. europe anyway. grossman says. in the middle of life and fate the the. the the one of the extraordinary things. about anti-semitism is that it does. everything at the same time. the jews get condemned in one place for. being rich and in another for being poor. condemned in one place for assimilating. in another for not assimilating. assimilating too much and assimilating.

too little. for being too successful for not being. successful enough so it's i think it's. the only racism that includes within it. a detestation for the real anti-semite. a detestation of people that the person. may perceive to be better than them. correctly or otherwise by the way um i'm. embarrassed to say i have not read this. one of two greatest novels of the 20th. essentially life in faith jesus. and just to read off of wikipedia we see.

a gross many ukrainian jew became a. correspondent for the soviet military. paper krasnod. having volunteered and been rejected for. military service he spent a thousand. days in the front lines roughly three of. the four years of the conflict between. the germans and the soviets and the main. themes covered in. uh. how's it go life and fate i keep. thinking. is a theme on jewish identity in the. holocaust grossman's idea of humanity. and the human goodness stalin's.

distortion of reality and values. and uh science like goes on in reality. of war it's interest i need to. definitely you need to read it you'll i. think you'll really get a lot from it. it's. one of the other things the one. reference but one of the other things he. does is that he he has this. extraordinary ability to to talk about. the. the. the absolute highest levels of the. conflict and then zoom in it's rather. like the camera work they use and things. like lord of the rings. where he zooms down and then gets one. person in the midst of all this and you.

get you you get on there what puts you. in the study too so i i personally. have read and reread the william shires. the rise and fall of the third reich. who's another journalist. who was there. but he does not do it interestingly. enough given such a large. novel kind of the definitive work on his. definitive original work that goes to. source materials and on hitler he. doesn't. uh touch anti-semitism really.

same thing to miss out well he just says. it. very calmly and objectively as he does. for most the work that this was. the fact. of. life there's a lot of cruelty throughout. but he doesn't get to well. one of the things is because they lost. the war because of. you anti-semitism. i mean that's one quite important way to. to view this andrew roberts another. historian said is that you know in the. end the nazis lost the war because they. were nazis. oh it sounds almost too neat but it's.

it's worth remembering that you know. at the end of the war when the germans. need to be transporting troops and they. need to be transporting very basic. supplies. eichmann makes sure he gets the trains. to transport the jews. right up to the end. well that's that's certainly a dark. that's a dark possibility you know. anyhow but to go back to racism in. general racism in general apart from. anti-semitism relies on. the the.

um perception that another group of. people a racial group other than your. own are inferior to you that that's what. i'd say is the easiest shorthand of. racism and of course. it's. one of the stupidest things that our. species is capable of. i mean one of the stupidest that you can. look at a person and. guess them. in their entirety in fact. because of their skin color i mean it's. like. what a stupid idea that is.

as well as being an evil one but the the. the. i would say that one of the. i think it's a dangerous thing in our. era that there are bits of it coming. back that's why i say we do need sort of. we need our antennae working. we just don't need them to be over. active or under active you know. now the book is war in the west. but speaking of racism racism towards. different groups based on their skin.

color you've said that there's a war on. white people yes. would you say that's the case would you. say that there are significant. racism towards white people in the. united states i'd say that the white. people in the united states are the only. people who are told that they have. hereditary sin. and that's a big one just to start with. based strictly based on their skin color. i mean i would find it so repugnant. if and i hope everybody would join me in.

feeling this i would feel so repugnant. if there were any school of thought in. america today that had any. um. grasp on the public. attention. that said that black people were born. into evil because of something their. ancestors had done. like they had the mark of cain upon them. i mean i think it would be such a. vicious way to try to demoralize.

a group of people. and to tell them that. the the things they would be able to. achieve in their lives are much lessened. because they should spend. significant portions of their lives. trying to atone for something they. didn't do. is there a difference. and then and the following point the. obvious point left unsaid but let's say. it. nobody. in the public square. says that i mean they're the maniacs of. the far fringes but nobody. in the mainstream would dare to say that.

or i think even think that about any. group of people other than white people. and. does this mean that white people are. more disadvantaged than black people. know and again let's not make this a. competition but. let's not get into i just desperately. urge people not to get into the idea of. hereditary sin according to racial. background. is there something to be said about the. feature aspect to sort of play devil's. advocate. about.

the asymmetry. of um sort of accusations towards the. majority so yes because. so much easier to attack a majority it. is much easier but is there something to. be said about that being a useful. function of society that you always. attack. um that the minority has. disproportionate power to attack the. majority so that you can always keep the. majority in check well. it's a dangerous game to play isn't it i. think. it's very dangerous.

that's a good summary of entirety of. human civilization well yeah. everything's dangerous um. but it's a very dangerous game to play. that i wrote about this bit in the. matters of crowds when i was saying like. gay rights people the ones that still. exist the ones who don't have homes to. go to. uh who. want to beat up on straight people in a. way. or want to make straight people feel. like they're. kind of unremarkable uncool. you know. boring straights.

so boring. so not not like the magical pixie fairy. dust gaze. um that's a bad idea to push that one. that's a bad idea and some gays push. that. highly unwise. given the fact that about. two to three percent of the population. are actually gay although now there's. like a additional 20 who think they're. like two spirit or something and. all that bullshit but they're just.

attention seekers so let's not spend too. much time on that. but. equally as i've said i said the man of. the crowd is with. with the feminist movement very unwise. for half of the species to say that the. other half of the species isn't needed. and there were always third and fourth. wave feminists willing to make that nuts. argument. uh. not first way famous you didn't hear it. in first wave feminism you didn't hear. suffragette tended not to say. we'd like the vote and men.

are scum. it would've been hard to have won. everyone over to their side not least. the men they needed to win over their. side. but you do get third and fourth wave. feminists who say like you know do we. need men. or men are all ex again it's a bad idea. it's a bad idea tactically. what if men. richard wrangham. somebody from harvard. uh describes that men. are the originators of violence physical. violence in society.

and he argues that actually the world. would be better off. no just a very cold. calculus if you get rid of men there. would be a lot less violence in society. is. his claim but who says you need to get. rid of violence in society well that's. but shouldn't that at least be a. discussion. all right. have a debate on a panel discussion. violence pros and cons well that's the. sort of thing if i can say so that. something weak ass academic decides to. do because he thinks that his area of.

boston would be nicer or whatever. um he might decide it's useful if he was. living in kiev today. to have violent men. i mean it might. if if um if new york was invaded right. now i'd need some violent men around. here. but it wouldn't be invaded. if there's no violent men. well that's the argos argument there's. there's also at least there's some level. of.

threat. that you ought to exude that puts people. off. if i was in. you know i'm very glad that the men and. women of ukraine are capable of and. more than capable of fighting for their. country. and for their neighbors and their. families and much more but. like it's better that that there was. violence ready to unleash when violence. was unleashed upon them than that the. whole society had been told that they. should identify as non-binary.

but at least it's a conversation to have. isn't there. uh. is there aspect to the sort of the. feminist movement that is correct. uh you know in challenging the. some forms of violence domestic violence. for instance. although women are capable of that as. well. i'm learning about this we're always. learning about this in the moment. i can't help but watch the entirety of. it go down in this beautiful mess that.

is human relations okay but just to. finish that thought it's. it's very unwise for women to war. against men. as it would be for men to war against. women it's highly highly unwise to war. on a majority population and in america. britain and other western countries. white people are still a majority. and so why would you tell the majority. that they're evil by dint of their skin. color. and think that that would be a good way. to keep them in check. i mean i'm not guilty of anything.

because of my skin color i'm not guilty. of anything my ancestors didn't do. anything wrong. and even if they had why would i be held. responsible for it. so uh to go back to nietzsche. is there some aspect to where if we try. to explain the forces of play here is it. the will to power playing itself out. from individual human nature and from. group behavior nature. is there some elements to this which is.

the game we play as human beings. is always when we have less power we try. to find ways to gain more power that's. certainly one um the desire to to grab. is. let me see if i find a quote for you on. that. the desire to grab. that which we think we're owed. and to do it. often in the guise of um. justice. i mean. justice is one of the great terms of our.

age and one of the very great bogus. terms of our age. people forever talk about their search. for justice it's amazing how violent. they can often be in their search for. justice and how many rules they're. willing to break so long as they can say. they're after justice and how many norms. they can trample so long as they can say. it's in the name of justice you can burn. down buildings in the name of justice. well the the majority groups throughout. history including those with white skin. color have done the same in the name of. justice we we came up with all kinds of.

sexy terms in our propaganda machines to. sell whatever atrocities we'd like to. commit. one of the one of the quotes of uh from. nietzsche that i liked and i quoted in. this careful i'm judging you harshly. yeah of course. um. anita says that one of the dangers of. men of resentment is they'll achieve. their ultimate form of revenge. which is to turn happy people into. unhappy people like themselves to shove. their misery in the faces of the happy. so that in due course the happy and this.

is quoting each other start to be. ashamed of their happiness and perhaps. say to one another it's a disgrace to be. happy there is too much misery. this is something to be averted for the. sick says nietzsche must not make the. healthy sick to or make the healthy. confuse themselves with the sick. well. i think there again there's a lot of. that going on how could i be happy when. there is unhappiness in the world why. should i not join the ranks of the. unhappy.

i think dostoevsky has a book about that. as well sure knows from underground um. okay. this has been very russian russian. focused i'm very pleased with the number. of times but doctor asking grossman and. others have come in this is right i. wasn't. doing this as a sort of um yeah well. it's always good to plug the greats um. and good to know they're still relevant. do you speak russian by the way at all. which i did i'm told it's a ten-year.

language basically to learn from scratch. as well my friends who have done it well. there's the language and then there's. the personality behind the language and. the personality i feel like you already. have. so you just need to know the surface. details. [Laughter]. okay uh in fact the silence to be. silent in the russian language is. something that's already important oh i. should if we had a moment i'd tell you. my story about stalin's birthplace. should i tell you that no i once went to.

gory where stalin was born. have you been no experience i was ages. after the georgia war. and i went to enter the no man's land in. south ossetia and. kazia. and. i said. i really gotta go to gory or somehow. because the shell had landed in gory. rather weirdly from the russian side and. gory is where son was born. and of course gore is in georgia. and uh um let me have the museum of. stalin's birthplace they've been trying. to change for some years.

because it had been. unadulteratedly pro-stalin for years. and the georgian authorities this is in. uh um. his time were trying to make it into a. museum of stalinism. and it was really tough. the only place i've seen which is. similar is the house in mexico city. where trotsky was killed. that also is like they're not quite sure. what to do they. they don't want to say he's a bad guy. because they think that people won't. come anywhere.

um. stalin's house and glory had changed. from the museum of star to museum of. silence and there was this. large georgian woman with a pink pencil. who just had clearly been doing the tour. for like 50 years. and he just pointed all the fast and she. did that classic thing i've also saw it. once in north korea where they they're. sort of that sort of communist thing. where they say here is this is 147 feet. high by 13 feet deep that gives you lots. of fashion i don't care yeah why does it. matter um they always give you facts. yeah. this is stalin's suitcase it is uh 13.

inches wide by you know it isn't. anyhow and uh this woman did all of this. and it was all just wildly pro well not. pro signs just to explain the science. lives it was just a great local boy done. good. uh they didn't mention the fact he. killed more georgian spaghetti than. anyone else. and we get get to the end and before. being taken to the gift shop where they. sell red wine with stalin's face on it. and among other things. and a lighter for styling on it.

uh. they uh they took you to a little room. under the stairs and they said this is a. replica of interrogation cell to show uh. uh represent horror of what happened in. stalin time uh now gift shop. there's no kind of night and i took the. woman aside at the end i discovered. she'd said this to other journalists and. visited before i took her outside and. said i said what do you think about. commerce darling. and she said um let's say she'd. obviously done this.

during communist times. she said. it's not my. place to judge you know sort of thing. which is an interesting comment in. itself i said yeah but he killed more. georgians and everyone you know and all. that sort of thing. and she said it's not my place to judge. or to give my views and those sort of. things and. the franchise ever what do you feel. about it and she said um. it was like a hurricane. it happened. [Music]. that's interesting because uh if i may.

mention clubhouse once again. i gotten a chance to talk to a few. people from mongolia. there's a woman from mongolia and they. talked about the fact that they deeply. admire stalin love she she sounded if i. may hopefully that's not crossing line i. think i'm representing her correctly and. saying. she admired him almost like. um. like loved them like the way people love. like. like a like jesus like a holy figure. well isn't that still the case in large.

parts of russia yeah i mean he keeps. stalin keeps on winning greatest russian. of all time. and and that's perhaps maybe there's a. dip but if we were to think about the. long arc of history perhaps that's going. to go. up and up and up and up as yeah there's. something about human memory. that it just you forget the details of. the atrocities of the past and remember. that i mean think of the number of. people we talk about as historical. heroes napoleon yeah i mean. british people don't talk about opponent. as a hero but the french.

yeah. exactly the culture now you're no you. didn't think that dostoevsky now again. tricky ground but everybody like the the. the french. enormously napoleon and uh they had many. animal aspects it was also. unbelievable brute and um killed many. people unnecessarily. and um there are lots of figures from. history that we sort of cover that over. with. yeah yeah. can we mention churchill briefly because.

he is one of the. um. you could make a case for him being one. of the. great representers or great figures. historically of the western civilization. yes and then there's a lot of people. uh from not a lot. i know i have like three friends and one. one of them happens to be from london. and they they say that he's a a uh um. not a good person. so listen this friend would not discuss.

i just this is an opinion poll of the. three friends but i do know that there's. quite a bit you know there's a backlash. going on at the moment at the moment and. in general there's a spirit like. reflecting on on the darker sides of. some of these historical figures like. challenging history through. it's it's not just critical race theory. it's it's it's challenging. history through well. are. the people we. think of as heroes. what are their flaws and are they in.

fact villains that are. convenient um. sort of uh we're there at the. right time. to accidentally do the right thing. accidentally. i hope this isn't the. representative. fair estimation of your friend in. london's views no she's going to be. quite mad at this but i didn't say the. name so it could be any friends it could. be but we know it's a she canada. well see i i uh i've given that away.

well that's with of course i would not. um i made that up completely it's it's. all. just like my girlfriend in canada she's. completely a figment of my imagination. nevertheless. winston churchill uh is somebody i mean. just looking at. reading the rise and fall of the third. reich is an incredible figure that um. that to me. so much of world war ii is marked. leading up to the wars marked by.

stunning amounts of cowardice by. political leaders. and. it's fascinating to watch hear. this. person clearly with the drinking and a. smoking problem. i don't understand why that's a negative. no i didn't say you see yeah you throw. it in as if it is no well it's it's. called humor i'll explain it to you one. day what that means but. he still explained dry him. he stood up. he stood up to what we now see as evil.

when at the time it was not so obvious. to see. um. [Music]. you know so that that's that's just a. fascinating figure of western. civilization i'd love to get your. comments the real criticisms i mean it's. making you drinking the real christians. of of church are quite easy to to sum up. and i do so in the war on the west side. so i say these are the things they now. use against him uh didn't do enough to. avert the bengal famine in 1943 for. instance that's been shot down by. numerous historians including indian.

historians uh in the middle of the war. in the middle of a world war churchill. did what he could to get grain supplies. diverted. um from australia to into bengal. the famine was appalling it was caused. by a typhoon it was not caused by. winston churchill um and the idea that. some. basically indian nationalist historians. have pumped out in recent years. and just. anti-churchill figures that. he actually wanted indians to die is his.

just total calumny. and when people claim some people claim. that i mean there are a few very. ignorant scholars nevertheless with some. credentials. who claimed that churchill wanted the. indian population to like basically be. genocided and it's complete nonsense not. least by the fact that during the period. which in question the indian population. boomed. um. so. that that's one of the main ones. another one is that he had um some views.

that we now have regarded as racist he. definitely regarded races as being of. different characters. um and that there were superior races. and. the the as it were the white european. was a superior culture. he was born in victorian england. so he had some victorian attitudes. um. these are things in the negative side of. the ledger and as with all history you. should have a negative and a positive.

side of the ledger positive side of the. ledger includes he almost certainly did. more than any one human being to save. the world from nazism. so that should counter something. and one of the reasons i talk about. churchill in this regard is this is to. stress that. if you get. i'm not trying to stop anyone doing. history. at all i don't think the revisionism of. recent years about churchill or the. founding fathers of america or anyone. else is. anything i want to stop i find it. interesting i find interesting not least. because it's so sloppy on occasions but.

i find it interesting it's important and. we should be able to see people in the. round. but. that includes recognizing the positive. side of the ledger. and if you can't recognize that side. you're doing something else you're doing. something else it's not history. it's um some form of politicking of a. very particular kind. and i think it's the same thing with the. founding fathers. there are some people for instance. certainly since the 90s who have pushed. the sally hemmings thomas jefferson.

story to show that thomas jefferson was. some kind of brute as a result um. you know we see. jefferson statue being removed from the. council chamber the city was sitting in. last november by council members who. said that thomas jefferson no longer. represents our values if you can't if. you can't recognize greatness of thomas. jefferson and that he had flaws. i mean. that's not a grown-up debate. and weigh them and weigh them in the. context of the time.

but let me sort of throw a curveball uh. a curveball at you then. uh what about recognizing the positive. and the negative of a fella with nice. facial hair called karl marx. sure. sure i mean i i i have a section in the. war in the west as you know where i go. for karl marx with some glee. so he seems to have gotten uh. you know some popularity in in the west. recently. um not just recently yeah i mean he's.

had a resurgence recently yes resurgence. well that's because that's because. whenever whenever things are seen to go. wrong people reach for other. options. and when for instance it's very hard for. people to accumulate capital it's not. obvious they're going to become. capitalists. and so one thing that happens is people. say let's look at the marxism thing. again see if that's a viable goer. and my argument would simply be. point me to one place that's worked. well the argument from the.

marxist or the. marxian economists is that. we've only really tried it once the. soviets tried it and then if there's a. few people that kind of tried the soviet. thing cuba tried it. well they they basically it's an. offshoot of this show they tried soviet. yes they've tried it tried it in. venezuela. yes yes yes so but let's just let's just. quickly say. how did all these experiments go. they they did not well they failed in. fascinating ways they did but they.

failed yes they said and. we should stress so grossly failed. so grossly failed that they threw. millions and millions of people. into completely thwarted lives that were. much shorter than they should have been. yeah so the the lesson to learn there. that you can learn several lessons one. is that anything that smells like. marxism is going to lead. to a lot of problems. now.

another lesson could be well what is the. fundamental idea that marx had. he was criticizing capitalism. and the flaws of capitalism so is it. possible to do better than capitalism. and that's if you take that spirit you. start to wonder that might actually. become relevant in i don't know 20 30 50. years. when uh the qual the uh. the machines start doing more and more. of the labor all those kinds of things. you start to ask questions if i finally. might get to marx's dream of what the.

average day would look like yes. what yeah well there's gonna be an awful. lot of literary criticism then. if you remember that. said that we would be doing in the. evenings the labor in the evening well. he didn't know twitter was a thing or. netflix so he would he would change. are there things we could learn from. marx. plausibly possibly i can't think of. anything myself off hand but um. to have a critique of capitalism isn't. by any means a bad thing in the society. i'd rather that it was a critique of.

capitalism that showed how you improve. capitalism a critique of a free market. that showed how people could get better. better access to the free market how you. could ensure for instance that young. people get onto the property ladder. things like that those are constructive. things so people who say we must have. marxism i mean don't know what the hell. they're talking about. because that never leads to any of those. things haven't led in the past. it's never led in the past and at some. point you've got just you've got to try. to work out how many tri how many. attempts you make at this damn. philosophy before you realize that every.

attempt always leads to the same thing i. mean we could pretend that fascism has. never been properly tried. and that it was unfortunate what. happened in nazi germany but you know. that wasn't real fascism and. in mussolini's fascism you know didn't. go all that well but it was you know a. bit better and maybe we could try a bit. more franco fascism. nobody would have any time for this crap. nor should they the people who try that. are reviled and quite rightly so why do.

we tolerate it with the marxism thing. and. it's a great mystery to me the way that. people do tolerate it always always in. this stupid way of saying we haven't. done it yet and if you keep trying the. same recipe and every time it comes out. as shit. it's the recipe's shit well sort of i'm. trying to practice here by playing. devil's advocate practice the same idea. that you mentioned which is. when you say the word marxism should you. throw out everything or should you ask a.

question is there good ideas here. and the same it's the good it's weighing. the good and the bad and being able to. do so calmly and thoughtfully sure um. you know do you know the famous george. orwell uh. comment on the style in an argument with. a stalinist. do you know. that's one of my favorite quotes. george orwell in the early 40s gets into. an argument with a um a stylist. he's obviously a marxist. and the um uh this is after the show.

trials 37. uh this is this is. when it's very clear what. marxism in the russian form is. and this uh uh all well is in the. discussion with this this marxist and it. goes on and on and eventually eventually. orwell says well you know what about the. show trials and he does and what about. what's happened in ukraine and. and. then the famines and and much more and. the purges and the purges and the purges. and eventually the.

stalinist says oh well what oil knows. he's going to say all along which is he. says you can't make an omelet without. breaking eggs. and orwell says. where's the omelette. oh yeah so it's a good that's a really. good because. look at this by this stage okay how many. where's my damn omelette how many. just messy big bloody eggy piles. have the marxists created by now in.

country after country. yeah always next time they're going to. produce the great omelet. but they never have and they never will. because the whole thing is rotten from. the start. but let me just also say one thing about. that because of course marx isn't as. nice as he sounds. and that's one of the things that i i. try to highlight in the book is if we're. going to do this reductive thing of. people in history and saying well they. had views that were of their time. and we must therefore condemn them for.

them saying fine let's do the same thing. with marx and there are things i quote. in this book from marx's letters not. least letters to engels and. indeed in his published writings in pa. pieces he was writing for the american. press uh in the 1850s. uh. the way he has horrible views on slavery. and and um colonialism and much more. but the main thing is i mean the. horrible things he says about uh black. people and the constant use of the. n-word in fact when i was doing the.

audio book for the war the west i had to. decide. will i read out the quotes from marks or. not if i had read them out i'd have been. cancelled because people would have just. said. you've been using the n-word so much in. this passage and you know this is and i. slightly thought of doing it so that i. could say i was only quoting marks. to try to hit the point home in the end. of course i was sensible and decided not. to but marx's letters are disgusting on. these terms since i highlighted this in. this book and some of the media picked.

it up. um. and um. and have popularized this thing i'm. trying to put into the system which is. if you're going to accuse church of. racism if you're going to choose accuse. jefferson of racism washington of racism. and so on what about marx the two things. that marxists have said since this came. out has been first of all why are you. saying this about marx he was a man of. his time. like everyone else and the second thing. they say is we don't go to marx for his. horrible abhorrent views on race so. talking about mixed-race people with.

guerrillas and so on. we don't go to him for that we go to him. for his economic theories i say okay. well we don't go to thomas jefferson for. his views on slaves. we don't go to churchill. for his. the precise language he used that points. in the 1910s about indians or his health. advice or his health advice. actually i do get him for that. but that explains so much but. let's have some standards on this and.

that's why that's why i'm very. suspicious of the fact that the people. don't do this with marx because i think. what they're trying to what some people. are trying to do and this isn't this may. sound conspiratorial but i really don't. think it is i think that some people are. deliberately trying to completely clear. the cultural landscape of our past in. order to say there's nothing good. nothing you can hold on to no one you. should revere you've got no heroes the. whole thing comes down who's left. standing oh we've also got this idea. from the 20th century still about. marxism.

or the 19th and 20th centuries. and no no. you you will not have the entire. landscape deracinated. and then the worst ideas tried again. so basically destroy all of history and. the lessons learned from history and. then start from scratch and then then. it's completely any idea can work and. then you could just take whatever well. and the thing is there are always some. people with pre-preferred ideas and i. mentioned this also with the. post-colonialists the post-colonialists. were really interesting.

because when the european powers were. removing were removing from africa in. the far east. post-colonial movements had one obvious. move they could have done which was to. say. since the european powers have left we. will return to a pre-colonial life which. in some other places would have been. returning to slave markets and slave. ownership and slave selling and much. more but put that aside for a second. they could have said we have an. indigenous culture which we will return. to. almost uniformly in the post-colonial.

era you had figures like franz fanon you. had european intellectuals like sartre. who said. the western powers are retreating from. these countries and therefore we should. institute in these countries what but. western marxism. well it's not obvious to me that like. the bad ideas would be the ones that. emerge but it's more likely the bad. ideas would emerge in this kind of. context when you erase history. when you're raised when you raise. history and you leave some ideas.

deliberately. uninterrogated. i mean. as i say. find me. one in a hundred american students. who've heard of. and any of the communist despots of the. 20th century. i mean name recognition in there was a. poll done a few years ago in the in the. uk and like name recognition among. children school children for. stalin let alone mao.

i mean mao who kills more people than. anyone. 65 million chinese perhaps. how many. students in america know what mao was. who he was. where he was nothing or the atrocities. committed where the atrocities were. committed oh don't worry about that. because it mean it means that we might. have learned one of the two lessons of. the 20th century we we think we've. learned one of the of the two lessons of. the 20th century we actually haven't.

learned that lesson we've learned a. little bit of it and we've not learned. the other one at all because that's why. we still have people in american. politics and elsewhere actually talking. about collectivization and things. as if there's no problem with that and. as if it's perfectly obvious and they. could run it and they'd know exactly. where to start what are the two lessons. of the 20th century fascism and. communism. oh. yeah. i mean i'm not exactly sure what the. exactly the lessons are.

no it's not clear if the lessons were. very clear that we'd be better at it. well one is your book broadly applied of. the madness of crowds. that's one lesson well. so. meaning like. large crowds can display herd-like. behavior yes be very suspicious of crowd. yeah in general i mean you apply it in. different more to modern application. yeah in a sense but. it's. that that's rooted in history that. crowds can when when humans get together.

they can do some uh quite radically. silly things elias canetti is very good. on that crowd some power. um. and eric hoffer who is a sort of. self-taught. amazing. um. not the ultra didactic writer. the true believer and so on he was. extremely good on that. but the reason i mentioned the two. things no i mean we should have realized. the two nightmares of the 20th century. fascism and communism. that we should we should know how they. came about and we're interested in.

learning how one of them came about. fascism and we know some of the lessons. like. don't treat other people as less than. you because of their race. that's one lesson. but when we've. we've done some good at learning that. um but the second one not to do. communism again not to do socialism. i i think we're. way away from knowing because we don't. know how it happened. and the and the little temptations are.

still there always look at people saying. i'm going to expropriate your property. if people do things they don't like say. well we can't wait to take your property. well there's a sense there's an. appealing sense. okay every ideology has an appealing. narrative behind it. that sells the ideology so for socialism. for communism is that there's a. it seems unfair that the working class. does all of this work.

and gets only a fraction. of the output it just seems unfair. so you want to make they do get a. fraction of that but yes. yes and so. it seems to be more fair if we increase. that if the workers own. um all all of the value of their output. and. well the things that are more fair seems. to be. a good thing i'd say well yeah i mean. fairness is is. i like fairness as well.

no i much prefer fairness because it's a. much easier thing to. try to work out it's quite amorphous. itself for the concept but everyone can. recognize it. so for instance. um. should the boss of the company. earn. a million times that of the lowest paid. employee doesn't seem fair. should they earn. maybe five or ten times the. the salary of the lowest yeah possibly.

that that could be fair. there are certain sort of multiples. which are within. the bounds of. you know. reasonableness. i i think actually that's the. that's the much bigger problem in. capitalism at the moment as i see it is. is the is the. not untrue perception that a tiny number. of people get a lot of the accrue a lot. of the. benefits. and that. the.

the the bit in the middle. has become increasingly squeezed and is. a danger always of falling all the way. down to the bottom i mean i think in the. snakes and ladders of american. capitalism for instance it's. it's a correct perception to say that. the snakes go down awfully far. if you tread on the snake. you can plummet an awfully long way in. america. and the deal in the game was that the.

ladders took you. high and there's a perception and again. it's not entirely wrong. that the ladders system on the board is. kind of broken. so what you're saying is you're. a marxist i'm douglas i'm a marxist you. heard that here first in the uh in in. the. out of context blog post you're going to. write about this. i can practice point the way to critique. capitalism if it's gone bad is to get. better capital yes free markets where.

they're not fair should be made fair. never. decide that the answer is the thing that. has never produced any human flourishing. i.e marxism. so as you describe in the madness of. crowds the herd-like behavior of humans. that gets us into trouble. uh. you as an individual thinker and others. listening to this how can you because. all of us are mid crowds we're. influenced by the society that's around. us by the people that's around us how.

can we think independently. how can we. you know if you're. in um. in this in the soviet union at the. beginning of the 20th century. if you're in. i don't know nazi germany. at the end of the 30s or 40s how can you. think independently. given. first of all. that it's hard to think independently. just intellectually speaking but also. that there's.

it's just becomes more and more. dangerous so the incentive to think. independently. under the uncertainty uh that's usually. involved with thinking is. i mean it's a silly thing to say but on. twitter there's a cost to be paid for. yes for going against the crowd on any. silly thing we can even talk about you. know. uh what is it will smith slapping chris. rock. you know there's a crowd that believes. that uh that was unjustified or. something i forget what the crowd.

decided but i don't crowd split on that. when it's safe to have one opinion. either way okay it is right but there is. you put it very nicely that there's. clearly a calculus here and that you can. measure on twitter in particular you can. measure kind of the crowd a sense of. where the crowd lays michael jackson. well oh boy. i don't want to uh this is not this is. not a legal discussion where i have. lawyer i don't have my lawyer. i don't even have a lawyer the man in. question is dead but i think most people.

who are not just die hard fans would. concede that michael jackson had a. strange relationship with children yes. and. uh. was almost certainly a pedophile. is that was that did the crowd agree on. that uh no the crowd hasn't agreed. because he's too famous and we all love. thriller. yeah we do so you said people who are. not fans i just don't no i'm a fan of. michael jackson but i think he was. almost certainly a pedophile. and. uh but i bet nobody wants to give up. dancing to bad at weddings so.

uh they just kind of add it in it's. fine seriously it's it's it's you're. like geniuses apply to uh bill cosby. oh that's well he wasn't he he was of. course. one of the most famous people in america. but maybe he wasn't regarded as talented. oh wow there's there's depth to this oh. yeah there's a genius opt out in all. cultures. there's a genius opt out in all cultures. look at lord byron lord byron shagged. his sister.

doesn't affect his reputation in fact if. anything it kind of adds to it. but then again this kind of. war against the west. geniuses actually. makes you more likely or no to get. cancelled. so if you look at the genius of thomas. jefferson. or well yes because if you haven't done. anything remarkable nobody will come. looking for you pastor obviously yeah. societal genius can get you into trouble. with your life okay sidle through life. with nobody noticing be totally harmless. and then and then die and hope you.

haven't used any carbon. um. uh but but you were asking about you. were asking about how to survive. the the era of social media as it were. and the crowds yeah and and there's a. very simple answer to that. don't um don't over. rate the significance of the unreal. world. oh come on but this is still human. psychology because you want to fit in. there's a you want to why. because you're. you like people and you're this is why.

not just like a small number of people. and ignore the rest yeah that's. that's what i do. well i mean i actually like most people. i'm not isn't a general thing i don't. have detestation for most people at all. most people like calculate enjoy. speaking with and being with. but. um. in terms of storing your sense of. self-worth in absolute strangers big. mistake. yeah well me that's this and now let's. turn into a therapy session because for. me and i think i represent some number.

of population is i'm pretty. self-critical i'm looking for myself in. the world. and. uh there is a depth of connection with. people on the internet. i mean have seen the shallowness of it. it's shallow connection interesting i. put it this way if you um. if you became very ill tomorrow. would any of them help on the internet. no no no good that's a good test yeah. it's a good test but then at the end of. the day. yeah you're right you're very close. friends with help family would help yeah.

yeah and perhaps that's the only thing. you can't start you can't store. um. significant amounts of of trust or faith. or belief or self-worth. in places which will not return it to. you. okay so let's talk about the more. extreme case the harsher case when you. talk about the things you. talk about in the war. uh on the west. and madness of crowds i mean you're. getting a lot of blowback i'm sure.

uh. as uh for the listener you just shrugged. lightly. with a zen light look on your face. um so you don't. all you need is sam harris to say. that you're brilliant and you're happy. i know it's i'm i'm very i love sam yeah. i'm deeply pleased when he flanders me. but i mean i'm and it's nice about me. but no i don't just rely on that. no i mean i. i don't why would i mind if apart from.

it i mean maybe it's self-selecting. if i didn't have the view i had about. that or the whatever armory it is that i. have on that i wouldn't do what i did. maybe. i mean have you been to some dark places. psychologically because of the. challenging ideas to explore. some like significant self-doubt just. kind of um i can't say i've been. unaffected by about everything in my. life by any means that would make me a. an automaton of some kind. um.

there's definitely times i've got things. wrong and regretted that. uh there's times i've. there have there was a period around the. time i wrote. my book the strange death of europe. which. uh. it was very very dark time. and. it wasn't because i was having a dark. time in my life but because of the book. i was writing. oh because of the places you had to go.

in order to write yeah book and um well. i was contemplating the end of a. civilization so. occasionally it's now i have maybe. slightly too pat at this stage but. sometimes. readers come up to me in the street or. whatever and say you know i love the. strange death of europe. and will say you know a very depressing. book to read however and i would say. well you should have tried writing it. um. but it was because i mean i was. it was it's it has chunks of it which.

i'm very proud of in particular about. um. uh the death of religion the death of. god the the loss of meaning and um the. the void. and uh that's difficult stuff to write. about and to grapple with. and there is a sort of i haven't reread. that book um since it came out but. um. i think there are passages in it which. reveal what i was thinking very clearly. in the poetry of it as it were as well.

as the. the detail. um. but. yeah i i can't say. i'm used. i'm used to. saying what i think and what i see. and if there's any pushback i've got. from that. i'm completely controlled that i'm. saying what i see with my own eyes. that's your source of strength is that. you're always seeking. the truth as best you see it well i. can't agree to go along with.

a lie if i've seen something with my own. eyes. do you ever so speaking of sam harris. and i mentioned to you offline a lot of. people. i talk to a lot of smart people in my. private life on this podcast and a lot. of them will reference you as a. as their example of a very smart person. so given that. a compliment. um do you ever worry that.

your sort of ego grows to a level where. you're not. what you think is the truth is no longer. the truth this is kind of um. it blinds you. and also on top of that the fact that. you stand against the crowd often. that there's part of it that appeals to. you that. you like to point out the emperor has no. clothes i get a certain thrill from the. friction yeah. that sometimes.

both your ego and the thrill of friction. will get you to uh deviate from the. truth and instead just look for the. friction could do. could do for sure. um i try to keep alive to that. i mean i try. early in my career i realized that for. instance. i didn't want to. to make on enemies unnecessarily. any more than strictly necessary because. there was a very large number of already. necessary enemies.

and i remember once i went into the. details but i already had one sort of. thing i'd done that way and then another. thing came out i just thought i can't i. can't do it. and i remember thinking don't be the. sort of person who's forever creating. storms. and i'm trying to make sure i wasn't and. i think i've pretty much. stuck to that. but to answer your question um. well the first thing is i'm i'm. as confident that i can be that um i. wouldn't fall into the trap you.

described two reasons. i mean one is that i don't think of. myself as a wildly intelligent person. um partly because i'm very very aware of. things i know nothing about. i mean for instance i have an. almost no. knowledge of the details of finance. uh or. economic theory. um. i mean the the real details i don't mean. the big picture of the kind that we were. just discussing earlier but.

uh i have. if you put the um. periodic table in front of me. i would struggle. to do more than um. a handful. yeah. i. am. very conscious of. huge gaps in my knowledge and where i. have gaps. or chasms. i tend to find i have a disproportionate. admiration for the people who know that.

stuff. like i'm wildly impressed by people who. understand money really understand it. you know i think how the hell do you do. that. and the same thing with biologists. medics stuff i just. know very little about and that's the. source of humility for you just knowing. that yes i mean i think well i'm sure. that stuff but. jesus if you got me under general. knowledge i'd say that thing some years. ago there's a thing in universe in the. uk called university challenge.

and my uh i was asked some years ago on. to there's a sort of like celebrity one. of former students of the universities. or colleges asked to go back for the. christmas special and um and i was asked. to be one of the people from my old. college to go back and compete in the. sort of celebrity alumni one and the. only reason i actually wanted to do it. was i discovered that louis theroux had. been to my college before my time and he. was on he'd agreed to be on the team and. i thought i'd love to meet louie through. that would be great fun. and uh anyhow and i said well i really.

don't want to do it and they said come. on you'd be great i said i wouldn't i'd. show myself i'd be a total asshole and. ignoramus and uh as it was i sat down. my flat and i watched some past episodes. of university challenge. and i realized i'd have just sat and. mute. for the whole half hour. um i just couldn't i mean the first. question was about physics and the. second one was about uh as it was i. watched the. the one and i could answer the first two. or three questions.

of the one that actually went out. because they they made it a bit simpler. but but i mean i'm terribly conscious of. the and i said to the producers i said i. can't go on because i mean i just. couldn't answer the questions these. unbelievably smart students seem to be. able to answer a whole range of things. so i'm perfectly aware of my. limitations and um. you contemplate your limitations. yeah and they're forever before me you. know. not hard to find in every day and and. then on top of that i suppose it's um.

and in a way you know that line from. rudyard kipling's. um. alternately. brilliant and slightly nauseating poem f. there's a there's a line you just enjoy. a good bond can you well no it's. not it's not i can enjoy a great poem. yes but i mean. a good poem yeah this is. you know slightly off but. this is this is this goes to your. criticism of dostoevsky. take take take uh douglas's criticism.

with a grain of salt so. maybe i've heard it read at too many. memorial services and things sure but uh. that line of. is a good piece of rice. if you can learn to meet triumph and. disaster and meet these greek these two. imposters just the same yeah that's a. good line it's a good line as it's. kicking off and then he's an amazing. turn of line but i do think that it's a. very sensible thing to try to greet. uh um. triumphant disaster and regard them as.

imposters and greet them just the same. and actually anyone who knows me knows. that. i never. partly it's because i have a sort of. belief in the old gods and at the moment. that i thought that i was at the moment. of triumph the fates would hitch up. their skirts and run at me at a million. miles an hour. um. but it's also because i gen anyone who. knows me knows i never have a moment. when i say. um.

that's just great i feel. totally. fulfilled and. victorious i mean it happened to me. recently when the war in the west went. straight in and number one in the. bestseller list how long did that last. in terms of your self-satisfied didn't. happen. not even for a brief moment no. when i first saw that it was selling. i had that moment of relation i thought. good. i've done it it's out. and i did have a moment of elation then.

definitely. but it doesn't last partly because i. tell myself it mustn't last. because as you said fate. hitches up its skirt. is it is that skirts i don't this you. you brits with your with your poetry. even when it's nauseating. as of 2022 this year. what's your final analysis of the. political leadership in the human. mind and the human being of. donald trump.

i sort of avoided this for years. just talking about trump i tried to. avoid talking about trump for years same. reason i tried to avoid writing about. brexit do you think that trump just. sorry in a small tangent do you think. the trump story. is uh over are we just done with volume. one i have no idea the people i know who. know him said he's running. and. and i think that in in general. republicans have to. do have a choice in front of them.

uh. one friend put it to me recently said. you've got to go in with your toughest. fighter. and. i understand that instinct. and i also think it's very dangerous. instinct because what is your toughest. fight is also your biggest liability. um what's the best way to get out the. democrat vote than 2024 than to have. donald trump running and the people that. are doing the war in the west are pretty.

tough. fighters. they are and um. i'm cautious about this because i know. every way i tread it's dangerous but let. me just. just be tread gracefully i'll try it as. gracefully as i can. my wellington boots. i am i galoshes uh. i here's here's the thing. uh i think everybody knows what trump is. i think we all knew for years. and i feel sorry for the conservatives. who had to pretend that he was.

something he wasn't i felt sorry for the. ones who had to. pretend that for instance he was a some. devout christian or. a man of faith or a man of great. integrity or. uh all of these sorts of things because. i'm not in the public eye for years i've. been obvious that wasn't the case. but but. he has something extraordinary. one thing is a method of me. communication that you've just got to. say is.

was unbelievable. you know in one fundamental way that you. can't look away for some reason. i mean we. i. i've been watching him clear everyone. out of the way in 2016. it was thrilling. because those people needed clearing. away. you know sam is just horrified what. america is going to give us another bush. what's so great about this family. um. america is going to give us another. clinton we're going to get to choose. randy clinton on the bush.

mark stein said whatever we'll just wait. for the day the clintons and the bushes. in to marry and then we can really have. a monarchy again. um. so. i i i was very pleased to see him clear. them away i was very clear to him please. see him. sort of. raise some of the issues that needed. raising i thought it was a sort of. breath of fresh air and i wished it. wasn't him doing it. um. and then there was a question of him. governing and it was just perfectly. clear he didn't know how to govern. he what he did have however what he does.

have is an incredible ability to fight. and some of the forces he was arraigned. against were arraigned against him my. gosh they would have taken down anyone. else. i mean. if they'd have probably done some. similar bs against ted cruz if he you. know or. marco rubio you know they'd have said. some of some people admitted they'd have. they'd have accused all these people of. racism and misogyny and everything else. as well just so they'd admit romney just. said they did john mccain.

um but. trump was the one ugly enough and bruisy. enough to fight. and also a willingness. or a lack of willingness. to play sort of. the civil. yes game of politics sort of you know at. a party. when um. like politeness gets you in trouble yeah. you show up and everybody's polite and. you just out of momentum want to be. being polite and all of a sudden you're. on an island with jeffrey epstein and uh.

it gets you into a huge amount of. trouble but so trump has these sort of. extraordinary qualities but i just you. know look he he he screwed up uh during. his time in office because he didn't. achieve as much as he should have done. now you could say about every president. but i refuse to acknowledge that two. years when he had both houses in the. first the beginning he just didn't know. what levers to pull. you know i mean he was sitting in the. office behind the oval office tweeting. watching the news. sorry that's not a president.

and um. he couldn't fill and didn't fill. positions because people knew i mean. people who were very loyal to him. he would just. you know he'd get them to do something. loyal and then destroy them. yeah and i i think and then we get onto. the thing about and here we get on to. the you know what of course is very very. fractious terrain but. you know i covered the 2020 election and. i was traveling all around the states. and i went to trump rally and. and all sorts of stuff and. i i mean i was in dc on election night.

and. um when and it got very ugly at one. point um in so-called black lives matter. plaza. when it looked like trump might win when. florida came in and got really i could. feel the air well very very heated and. like some antifa people started getting. into black lock and this sort of stuff. and i thought this town's going to burn. you know if trump wins. and. in the aftermath of the vote. i was willing to hang around and. watching for a bit and then i thought it. was going to drag on.

and i saw some of his people and others. and people told me they had great. evidence of vote rigging and all this. sort of thing. and i'm afraid i'm one of those people. who. doesn't believe that the evidence they. presented is good enough to justify the. claim that he won the election. and. i and people say have you seen 2 000. mules and have you seen anything look. the evidence isn't there that the the. election was won by donald trump yeah. and i think that what he did on january. the 6th was.

unbelievably dangerous. and you know here it is possible for us. to hold two ideas in our head at the. same time january 6 was not nothing. nor was it an insurrection an attempt to. stage a coup. and. there's a vanishing number of people in. the u.s or as eric weinstein said that. the it's like. this is the the roof that you have to. walk along and like. the sides are very steep.

yeah if you fall off either side. is there some sense. given the forces. that are waging war in the west. he said this feeling. perhaps because of antifa or something. else that this town is going to burn and. maybe a continued feeling that this town. is going to burn with the january 6th. events. are you worried. about. the future of the united states in the. coming years. because of the the the feeling of.

escalation. is that just. a war of twitter or is there it's real. is there a real brewing of something oh. it's real. and how. well let me then respond to that how. what is the hopeful if you. if you 10 years from now look back. at the united states and say we turned. it around. what would be the reason what would be. the ways the mechanisms that we do so.

tell you um. since i since i wrote this book there. are two things in particular that. i've been really pleased. that a specific type of specialist has. approached me on. to say that. things i've written about actually have. more application than i realized. one is um the gratitude issue a number. of people have approached me who have. gone through. a.a. more alcoholics anonymous they sometimes. say have you ever been to aaa and that's. a. personal question.

um. they say but the reason they ask it is. because they say well because if you go. to drug rehabilitation or alcohol. anonymous. um. uh. mcdonald's it doesn't sound very. anonymous you stand up in a room you say. your name and you tell everyone the. worst things you've ever done. that's the opposite of anonymous anyhow. but they say uh look because if you go. to these things apparently you're asked. to as part of your recovery yeah. say what you're grateful for like list.

what you're grateful for i didn't know. that by the way until until until the. book was out and so it turned out to. have more application than i knew the. other thing though is that i say that. it's absolutely crucial in america that. we try to find things that we agree on. and a couple of times since the book. came out i've been approached by people. with marriage counsellors. um but if you've also said i mean you've. ever been through marriage counseling. again that's a very personal question. stop asking me personal questions. no but they then they said and i said.

why well because this is. this is one of the things that we do. in couples therapy. is. try to find things you agree on. and. i think this is very important in. america. and it's made much harder by the fact. and i've said this many times but. forgive me if i'm repeating myself but. it's made much harder by the fact that. having different opinions is very last. century. now we all have different facts or at. least the two sides have different facts.

one half of the country roughly or let's. say 40 30 whatever you want to put it. with a you know tired minority in the. middle. um. one segment of the country believes that. hillary clinton won the 2016 election. and that the russians interfered and got. donald trump into power. another half of the country believes. that donald trump won the 2020 election. if you can't agree on who wins elections. it's very hard to see who you what you. agree on as a country that's one of the. reasons i mind the war on american.

history and western history is. one of the things you have to agree on. is at least some attitude towards your. past you don't have to go on everything. like the public square has to have. public heroes who are agreed to be. heroes to some extent. warts and all. um if you don't have that if actually. you think friends like half the country. thinks founding fathers were pretty good. the other half thinks they were. absolutely rotten racists and so on if. half the country basically thinks it. would have been better if columbus had. taken a different turn never found.

america gone back home and said i know. nothing out there that would have been. better and the other house pretty glad. in the end that we've got america. um. you know you've got to agree on. something. and i just see in america so i do think. we've got to try to find things we're. going like a reasonable attitude towards. the past that's why that matters i and. again i stress i'm not trying to say. that everything in the american past was. good god knows that wouldn't stand up to.

a second scrutiny yourself scrutiny but. nor was it all bad this wasn't a country. formed in sin. and in an eradicable sin it wasn't. founded in 1619 in order to make the. country wicked and incapable of escaping. that wickedness you know these are. things that will matter enormously in. the years ahead because if you can't. agree on anything including who your. heroes are. like the whole thing is just one massive.

division and we'll see what i think. we're already seeing which is people. basically going to states where it's. more like the life they want to live. and some people say to me well that's. okay and the genius of the founding is. that it allows for that. that's possible but it's also. it eradicates. part of what has been american public. life which is the ability to look at. each other and discuss face to face. and i see things like this bomb placed. on america the other week with the.

supreme court league the draft league. as being just a further example of that. i'm very very worried about it in. america and and because. if america screws up everything. everything else in the world goes. yeah there's the degree to which america. is still the beacon. of these ideas on on which. the c the country was founded and it's. been able to. live out in better and better forms. sort of live out the actual ideals of.

the founding principles versus. with the desire to improve yeah. constantly an imperfect union. yeah well as i generally have hope that. people want. to sort of. in terms of gratitude people are aware. of how good it feels to be grateful. um. it's a better life psychologically the. resentment is a thing that destroys you. from within so i just. feel that people will um long for that.

and will find that that's that's the. american way some of the division that. we reveal now has to do with new. technologies like social media. that kind of. is a small kind of deviation from the. path we're on because it's a new we got. a new toy just like nuclear weapons yeah. which is relatively new um. but. we need to find reasonable attitudes. towards these things and i that's why i. say like it matters how you and my. feedback on social media because we.

might we're all going through it to some. extent we're learning and we're learning. and we've got to learn how to do this. without going mad you know i say this as. my minimalist. call to friends in this era was. the main job is not to go insane. yeah. [Laughter]. yeah. and uh yeah like walk towards. uh because you know. i'm sure there's a hunter thompson quote. in there like. insanity and the weekends can be at. least fun okay.

do you have advice for young people. uh. that just put down their tick tock and. are listening to this podcast in high. school and college about how to have a. career how to have a life they can be. part of. so april question but uh. of course it i mean i can give specific. advice for people who want to be writers. and so on but that's a bit niche maybe. um. the writers will be very interesting. sorry to interrupt also how to put your. ideas down on paper and so the ideas.

develop them. and have the guts to. to go to a large audience. especially when the ideas are sort of. controversial or dangerous or difficult. well the main thing to do is to breed. when i was a school boy i'd ever have a. book in my pocket. um. side pocket in my jacket or inside. pocket and would read and. um. that wasn't. just because i was swotish in some way. but because i discovered. probably at some point in my early teens.

i discovered something i wrote about. this one. i discovered that books. were dangerous. which was a thrilling discovery yeah. i discovered that they could contain. anything. and also people didn't know what you. were reading. i remember i get far too young in age i. read the doors of perception of aldous. huxley. um. and um. i i. didn't make head or tail of it probably.

but i knew that it was about something. really interesting and dangerous. and i thought. constantly when i read poetry or read. history. i was just constantly um. thrilled and wanted to know more. and. and well if you want to become a writer. you have to be a reader. um. you have to read the best stuff. um and and you know obviously people.

disagree or agree on what that is and. you'll find the people that really. impress you. but i know i just came across certain. writers who just. knocked me off my feet. um. and. when you find those people like read. everything. and. cling on to them and find other people. like that find other writers like that. or people are connected. by history or. scholarship or circles or whatever.

for you was it fiction or non-fiction is. there particular books that you just. remember. or just give you pause well i remember. that the first book that absolutely. threw me was the lord of the flies. of william golding which used to be a. signed text and everyone's a bit snotty. about because it's so popular. um but i was thrown because i think it. was the first adult book i read. in that i had been used to the world of. children's literature of. everything ends up fine in the end the.

lost all get found. you know and this was the first book i. read where that's not the case. the world turns out differently and i. remember. for days afterwards i was just in a. state of shock. i. couldn't believe. what i'd just discovered. and partly because i sort of intuited it. must be true. and of course that's not to say that the. lord's like there's lots of scholarship. on. what children do in the situation of.

being on the island when they do. congregate and anyhow. but yes that was a sort of introduction. to the adult world and it was shocking. and thrilling and um and i wanted more. of it. um it was dangerous and it was dangerous. and then of course when i became. interested in sex let alone when i was. gay. i realized books were a very very good. way to learn about what i was. and that was even more dangerous in a. way and i thought i mean nobody knows.

what i know. and. he discovered sex that was an invention. in books you just what do you mean no. what i mean nobody no no no what i mean. is that one of the things that gay. people have when they're growing up is. that. you have this terribly big secret and. you don't think the world will ever know. you hope the world will never know. and. um. it's been called by one psychologist the. little boy with a big secret. and um so if you discover that other. people have the same secret there's a.

sort of. thank god for that. um but i mean that's just a version of. what everybody gets in reading in a way. which is the thrill of discovery that um. somebody else thought something you. thought only you'd thought i mean. one of the greatest one of the greatest. thrills in all of literature is when a. voice comes from across the centuries. and seems to leave a handprint you know. it makes you feel a little bit less. alone because somebody else feels yeah. sees the world the same way is the same.

way that's what c.s lewis says it says. said to have said. we read to know we're not alone. um but we don't only read no not alone. we read to become other people. um. i mean i think i saw in books the. version of the life i wanted to live and. then i decided to live it. and for i'm fortunate enough to have. done so. um. i wanted to live in the world of ideas. and um books and debate and. i wanted to live in the debates of my. time you know.

and i remember i remember when um. like a lot of people i read alden when i. was young. and uh. you know certain lines obviously stuck. with me but i that poem of his which. everybody you know. knows on which he hated uh september the. 1st 1939. i remember certain lines in that just. like whacked me. um what's that one sitting on a dive for. the second street degrading it alone of. the. at the end of a low dishonest decade.

because there's a problem with that line. which is you kind of want to be living. at the end of a low dishonest decade as. well it sounds sort of cool in a way you. know you're the only person who sees it. but um so yeah anyhow that's a diversion. but the point is if you want to be a. writer you've got to be a reader. apart from anything else you discover. the the lilt of language and the. the things you can do and i i've read. people who and i still do who i think my. god i didn't how did you do that in fact.

books books for me now and articles and. other things fall into two categories. one is i know how you did that. uh and the other is i don't know how you. did that. and. the and the best feeling as a writer is. when you do the second one. and i've and it happens occasionally in. my writing life will you almost like. return to something you've written or. like right after you no the moment you. write it you wonder how did i do that. yes. that's that's the most i've never said. that before that's the happiest thing in.

writing yeah. very occasionally it sounds but i mean. i've occasionally. finished something. funny enough it happened some years ago. in a long piece i wrote about the artist. basquiat. um. uh. i i finished the piece and i gasped. i didn't know because because that's. also a thing with writing is you. you you it's not sometimes people say. you need to write in order to know what. you think that's not quite true. sometimes you that's a very bad piece of.

advice for some writers who don't know. what they think and it's not going to. become clearer if they just start typing. [Laughter]. very hard yeah sometimes it is true that. you. there's a thought that's just. waiting there and a clarity that comes. across and suddenly the sentence emerges. in your brain and by the time you typed. it you you just go. yes. that's the greatest feeling of the. writing almost like it came from. somewhere else that's that's what um uh.

um bucunin. says about you know what's the moment is. tom stoppard's favorite quote about you. know pecune is saying what happened to. the moment where the right to other. writers pen when he pauses where does he. go in that moment. um. yeah. that's so interesting. that's that's so because i think the. answer to that question. will help us explain consciousness and. all those other weird things about the. human mind yes so that was advice for. writers i didn't really give any advice.

for people in general but um is that oh. you want to give health advice no to. your channel a churchill and no i don't. give health advice. clearly. because you implied that churchill was. one of your early guides in that aspect. so when you discovered your sexuality. let me ask about love. um. two pers far too personal of a question. to ask a brit but. um. what was that like and broadly speaking.

what's the role of love in the human. condition. sex and love. and for you personally. discovering that you were and maybe. telling the world that you were. gay. i'm very perilously personal i do. actually have a sort of rule that i. don't talk about my personal life but uh. oh rules are meant to be broken okay. i'll break it a little bit um. the. uh the the one of the ways in which. growing up and rising you're gay differs. from going up and being straight.

is that it's almost inevitable. that your first passions will be. unrequited. oh wow i never thought about that. yeah now that's not to say i mean. you know there's plenty of unrequited. love among young men for young women. young women of young men plenty of yeah. we know that but it's almost inevitable. if you're gay that your first uh. you know. passions will be totally unrequited. because the odds are.

that the person in question will not be. gay so the experience of love is mostly. heartbreak it's heartbreak. and disappointment that heartbreak can. be beautiful too of course well as again. it comes back to the thing is if you're. a writer or something because you can. always do something with it. that's why all writers are sort of not. to be trusted. i i i didn't trust you the moment you. walked in here. no i mean it's a famous problem with the.

writers because you always think i could. use uh. it's dangerous it's a dangerous thing. and all right it's almost like a drug. right uh no it's it's not like a drug. it's it's uh the fear that all. things even the greatest suffering um it. could be material. what's that what's the danger in that. exactly that seeing the material in the. human experience you don't experience it. fully you don't experience it fully and. you might be using it.

i had a friend who wrote a poem about a. friend who died in a motorcycle accident. in sydney in the 60s and he said he knew. the moment he was told that his friend's. death a tiny bit of him thought i could. use this for poem. and he did and the poem was wonderful. but there's always that slight guilt for. writers of. am i going to use that. anyhow that's a divergence life is full. of guilty pleasures and i think that's. one of them because if you feel that. guilt. really. what you're doing is you're capturing. that moment and you're going to impact. the lives of many many people.

by writing about that moment because. it's going to stimulate something that. resonates with those people because they. had similar kinds of memories about a. yes and a passion towards somebody that. they had to lose so. don't you know yes but there is a good. sign maybe perhaps the more obvious. perhaps problem is um. reporting from war zones or bad places. and wanting to find bad stories because. it's useful and there's there is a. definite guilt you get from that sort of. thing like the worse the situation the. more useful and anyhow um.

no so that's that's sort of the only. difference that happens from growing up. being gay and it means that. most. certainly in my generation most gay men. [Music]. came to. sexual or romantic maturity later and. there's lots of explanations of that um. maybe being one of the reasons for. perceived or otherwise promiscuity among. gay men. which is i think more easily persuaded. by the fact that. gay men behave like. men would if women were men.

that's that's one explanation but it it. it's both a feature and a bug that you. come to. sexual flourishing later in life that. could be seen as a yeah. in the trajectory of human life that. could be a positive or negative yeah but. what's broadly speaking is the role of. love in the human condition douglas. well it's the nearest thing we have to. finding the point. what what is the point what's what's the.

meaning of life let's go there so what's. the meaning is a hard one of course. where is the meaning is slightly easier. um and i'd say that everyone can find. that. um you gravitate towards the places you. find meaning. now there's a conservative answer to. this which is quite useful and it's. certainly more useful than any others. because the conservative answer is find. meaning where people have found it. before. which is a very very good answer yeah. if if your ancestors are found meaning.

in a place of worship or a particular. canon of work. go there. because it's been proven by time. to be able to give you the goods. um. much more sensible than saying hey i. don't know discover new ways of meaning. um uh but. love is. um. love is probably the nearest thing we.

can have. to the divine. um on earth and of course the problem of. what exactly. what type of love we mean is a. is an issue well that goes to the fact. that you don't like uh definitions. anyway i do like definitions i just. think they need to be pinned down. but let's not. let's not go there at. the moment because it's. uh does not pin down love at the moment. well.

no because as you know i mean because of. the different varieties of love and the. fact that we have one word for it in our. culture and that it means an awful lot. of things and we don't delineate it yeah. well but. let's say. human love. with the greatest fulfillment in um. uh sexual. fulfillment in sexual love with another. person. is um. probably the greatest intimation you can. have of. what um. might otherwise only be superseded by.

divine. love um. and it's the. um. the sense that all young lovers have. which is that. they've just. walked through the low door in the. garden and found themselves in place. and that this is. there's a beautiful beautiful poem of. can i read it to you yes please. um i'll try to find there's a beautiful. poem of philip larkins.

which slightly says. what i'm. i'm i'm trying not to dock your question. by referring to other people but. maybe that's the best way to answer the. question could be used to read. we read a poem. so there's a poem by um philip larkin. called high windows. which is um. which is remarkable because. he. he. um became sexual he was straight but he.

he and had a rather unhappy sex life but. he um. uh. came to sexual fiction in the 40s and 15. with all the hell that involved. and um. he took us he took what i remember. regarding as being a really remarkable. and important view on the sexual. revolution in the sixties which is the. most people of his generation older. people resented the young. um. they resented the freedom they had and. actually they pretended the freedom was.

terrible and it was always getting. likely to and laughing rather. surprisingly a very conservative person. took a different view and he says it in. his poem and the opening of a poem is he. says. when i see a couple of kids and guess. he's fucking her and she's taking pills. or wearing a diaphragm. i know this is paradise everyone old has. dreamed of all their lives. bonds and gestures pushed to one side. like an outdated combine harvester and. everyone young going down the long slide.

to happiness endlessly. i wonder if anyone looked at me 40 years. back and thought. that'll be the life no god anymore or. sweating in the dark about hell and that. or having to hide what you think of the. priest he and his lot will all go down. the long slide like free bloody birds. and immediately rather than words comes. the thought of high windows. the sun comprehending glass.

and beyond it the deep blue air. that shows nothing and is nowhere and is. endless. the divine. he found it. he found it in seeing a couple of young. kids. and knowing that one of them was wearing. a diaphragm. do you see what i mean it's first of all. it's very counterintuitive but secondly. this is the point that. sex had been so. tied up with misery. i mean people don't remember this now.

when they talk about. the past i mean that's one of my. favorite books stefan zweig's the world. of yesterday. including the descriptions of what it. was like trying to have sex in pre-first. world war vienna you know all the men. ended up going to female prostitutes you. know so many of them got syphilis and. this was their first experience of sex. it was so goddamn awful and they were. stuck with it all their lives i know. so there's lots of stuff that's gone. better in our last century and that's. one of them. but you ask about love yes i do think.

that love is basically um. the the thing that gives us the best. glimpse of the divine. and by the way sex. liberating sex. doesn't buy you. um. love no. i mean it throws in an entirely. it. it threw in another set of problems. um if if there's any meaning on top of. all that is we like to. uh find problems and solve that as a.

human species and sometimes we even. create problems. douglas thank you for highlighting all. the problems of human civilization. and giving us a glimmer of hope for the. future this is an incredible. conversation. thank you for talking today it's a huge. honor thank you it's very kind of you to. say that thank you. thanks for listening to this. conversation with douglas murray to. support this podcast please check out. our sponsors in the description and now. let me leave you with some words from.

douglas murray himself. this agreement is not oppression. argument is not assault. words. even provocative and repugnant ones are. not. violence the answer to speech we do not. like is. more speech. thank you for listening and hope to see. you next time. you.