David Wolpe: Judaism | Lex Fridman Podcast #270

The following is a conversation with. Rabbi David Walpy, someone who I've been. a fan of for many years for the kindness. in his heart, the strength of his. character, and the kind of friends he. keeps and talks with, many of whom. disagree with him but love him. nevertheless, including the late. Christopher Hitchens. I will have many conversations like. these in the future about religion, about Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and others. looking. to understand and celebrate the culture,

the tradition and the beauty of the. people who practice these religions. I. will of course not shy away from the. difficult topics. I will talk both about. hate and love, about war and peace. This conversation was recorded more than. 3 weeks ago. Please allow me this time. to speak on what has been on my mind. If. this is not interesting to you, please. skip. I totally understand. Some people asked me to say a few words.

on the war in Ukraine. I think my words are worth a little, but. perhaps let me try. I considered doing a long solo episode. on this war. I tried several times, but. it is too personal for now. To give you. context, I've been talking to refugees, friends, loved ones in Ukraine, in. Russia, in Poland, Slovakia, Malddova, Romania, even UK, Germany, Canada, India, China, and of course the United.

States. Some of them crying or angry or confused. or scared. I'm helping as best as I can privately. and I'm hoping to help in the future by. traveling to Ukraine and Russia and. celebrating the humanity and the beauty. of the people in this region. This was. all set up both for Ukraine and Russia. trips before 2022, including. conversations with scientists, artists,

athletes, leaders, and just quote. regular folks who are equally, if not. more fascinating to me. For now, it has become much more. difficult, but I'll keep trying to find. a way. I was born in the Soviet Union. My roots. are both Ukrainian and Russian. And. today, and until the day I die, I'm an. American. I'm proud of all of this. I. hope to keep celebrating the culture and.

the incredible human beings that make up. these nations and humanity as a whole. We're all one people. We're in this. together. That's how I feel about the people of. these nations. Now, let me speak about. those in the seats of power. I condemn all actions of leaders who. play geopolitical games on the world. stage, disregarding the cost paid in. human suffering on the scale of. millions. For this reason, I condemn.

Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine. And I condemn many of the military. interventions by the superpowers of the. world, including by my country, the. country I love, the United States, that. after World War II has intervened in. over 40 nations, with many studies. finding that the United States is. culpable for an unfathomable number of. civilian deaths. I condemn all heads of state who.

needlessly wage wars watching young men. and women burn in the fires they. started. I don't understand how humans. can be so cruel to each other. Or. rather, I understand. But I believe in a. future world where this is no longer. true. Let me also say a few words of what I. hope to do with this podcast. I want to. explore the full complexity and beauty. of human nature. I believe each of us. are capable of good and evil. And I want.

to understand how the mind and the. circumstance lead one to choose the. former path or the latter. And I believe. conversation is one of the best ways to. work toward this understanding. For. that, I think I have to not only talk to. the most inspiring humans in the world, but also to the most controversial. I will speak with many people who I. disagree with, politicians, activists, CEOs, heads of state, with very. different opinions on the world. I will.

try hard to challenge their ideas. without closing my mind to the depth and. complexity of their perspective and. their humanity. My presence in the same room with wildly. different people will make it easy for. the media and the internet to pick and. choose clips and snapshots attacking me. for being a shill for one side or the. other. I can't defend this point except. to say that I'm a shill for no one and. that I hope you see the strength of my.

integrity that I won't be influenced by. any of them no matter how rich, powerful. or charismatic they are. Like the poem. If by Roger Kipling says, "If you can. talk with crowds and keep your virtue, or walk with kings, nor lose the common. touch. If neither foes nor loving. friends can hurt you, if all men count. with you, but none too much.". This is a really, really important thing. to me that I try to live by that all.

human beings count with me the same. People have criticized me for wanting to. have some of these conversations, like. with Vladimir Putin and Vladimir. Zalinski, and for times in the past. speaking about them without the. seriousness the topic deserves. For. this, I would sincerely like to. apologize. I'm disappointed, even. ashamed of my frequent ineloquence on. these topics. I will work hard to do. better. When I'm joking, it should be. clear that it's a joke and hopefully.

actually funny. When I'm being serious, I should speak with care and rigor. I've. now done many hundreds of hours of. podcast conversation despite my frequent. failures in speaking. I hope you know. where my heart is. Unfortunately, I. think people will take clips of me and. use them to attack me. This will happen. more and more. I guess there's nothing I. can do but send them my love. In the. meantime, tried to be a better person. and a better interviewer. Let me also.

say that I like humor, especially dark. humor. I like being silly and not taking. myself seriously. I will keep taking. risks with that, all with a goal of. having fun and celebrating humanity at. its most absurd and most beautiful. I. will occasionally dress up in strange. and weird outfits to celebrate the. absurdity of life. I will hang out, break bread, and joke with all kinds of. people. I don't have to agree with them. to laugh with them in order to escape.

for a brief moment the tension, the. conflict, the hatred in the world. Humor. just might save this little chaotic. little civilization of ours. I love the. Ukrainian people. I love the Russian. people. And of course, I love my fellow. Americans, Californians, and. Midwesterners, New Yorkers, and Texans. I love humans. I love life. And I want. to share that love with others, with. you. If I mess it up, I'm really, really.

sorry. I'm trying my best. I have no. agenda and no one telling me what to do. I feel like the luckiest guy in the. world to have all these opportunities. and I'm deeply grateful to be alive and. to share that joy with other amazing. people around me. Thank you for your. support, for all the love you sent my. way. I will work my ass off to not. disappoint you. I love you all. This is. a Lex Freedman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the.

description. And now, here's my. conversation with David Walpie. Let's start with the big question. According to Judaism, who is God? It's. difficult because Judaism like any. tradition that is thousands of years old. and encompasses so many different lands. and languages and thinkers um it doesn't. give a single answer to even simple. questions and to large questions. It. certainly doesn't give a single answer. Although Judaism was responsible for.

introducing the monotheistic idea to the. world, it doesn't mean that it's one. idea. So if you take mymonities, the. greatest sage in the Jewish tradition, um medieval philosopher, he would say. that God is an omnipotent, benevolent, intangible, unimaginable God. In fact, he said you. can't say what God is only what God is. not because you have to emphasize could. talk more about that, but basically you. have to emphasize the unknowability of. God. You have a modern philosopher like.

Hesshel who says that God is a god of. posing. which probably would make my monities. shiver if he heard such a description. And if you look in the Bible, God is. always regretting or having human. emotions. So there are so many different. kinds of depictions and ideas and there. is this tremendous tension between. transcendence and imminence. That is in. the Jewish tradition, God, God God is.

exquisitely close. God is imminent. In. the Talmud's words, God is as close as. your mouth is to your ear. Um, in other. words, whatever you say, God hears it. And yet at the same time, God is. unfathomably distant. Sometimes when I. speak to high schoolers, I will say in. the Jewish tradition, think of it this. way. When you were 2 years old, you had. no idea what it was to be a 15year-old. Not only did you not know, but you. didn't know what you didn't know.

We conceive of God as being more. The. distance between God and human beings is. far greater than the distance between a. 2-year-old and a 15-year-old. So, when. we speak about God, we have to. acknowledge how limited we really are. So, okay, you laid out a lot of. fascinating things on the table. So, one, the knowability of God. Then this. idea of deep feeling which again can can. God be operate in the space of feelings. too. So not just the mouth and the ear.

of the senses. Can uh God be known? Can. God be felt by this three-year-old in. the analogy uh versus the the teenager. So I will take refuge in a beautiful. phrase by from Martin Booer another. Jewish theologian. He said, "God cannot. be expressed. God can only be. addressed." In other words, you can. speak to God. You can feel a sense of. God, but can you begin to comprehend or.

know God? No. Yseph Cosby, I'm pulling. in a couple of uh early Jewish. philosophers. He said, "To know God, I. would have to be God.". But can we get close? Is it useful or is. it a distraction to visualize things to. embody to create to the uh to attach to. the stories some kind of visualizations. in our mind uh for example gender he. versus she things like this or old man. in the sky kind of feeling.

so it's almost inevitable but I think. ultimately you try to transcend it um. this was this was the great you know we. just read this actually in synagogue the. story of the golden calf and the uh the. story is that human beings found it. impossible to not have a visualization. because they had just come from Egypt. and in pag in the world of of uh pagan. worship everything is it's not that. pagans thought that idol was actually.

God but it represented visually what God. was and along comes this idea that God. is actually not capable of being. visualized which is very difficult and. it stretches the bounds of human. comprehension, maybe even breaks them. So would you say the the proper way to. operate as a human in relation to God is. um humility and that you're screwed. You're not able to basically know. anything almost anything. Well, the.

reason that you're the salvation of this. is that you can't [laughter]. that you can't I was going to say the. reason you're not screwed, but then I. thought somebody might be upset at a. rabbi saying that, so I'm so I didn't. say it and have not said it. Yes. Um but but the uh the the reason you're. not is that you don't have to have a. comprehension of God. You have to have a. relationship to God. And those are not. the same. I mean to draw an a a a an.

analogy that is not far from perfect as. most analogies are, but this one. especially, you have relationships with. people who are mysteries to you. You're. mysteries to you're a mystery to. yourself. Um you can live and love. somebody for 50 years and they can say. something that surprises you because. ultimately we are trapped in here. And. when a child first says I, we call that. individuation. But what that really. means is. I I now know that I am cut off from the.

minds of all other children and all. other people. And. so you have with God a more intimate. relationship because you can believe. that God is. you are known by God and you have a. relationship to God despite the fact. that you can't know God just as you. can't know others. And some would say to. have a good relationship, you want to be. constantly surprised, right? You don't want to know the thing. Well, the world, yes, the world that God.

created is constantly surprising. But. and by the way, the the the caveat to. this, you know, when I I had all these. debates with Christopher Hitchens, and. he would always say that God is a. greater tyrant than North Korea because. it continues after your death. And the. idea of being known by God is after all. frightening if you think God knows what. I think and so on. Um, if your image of. God is unloving, can we jump to this? You had friendships. and conversations with a lot of the. fascinating figures of the past 20, 30.

years of the great intellectuals. One of. which perhaps one of the greats is uh. Christopher Hitchens. What have you. learned uh from your conversation, your. friendship? So, there are a lot of views he held. that I really did not agree with, but he. was a remarkable person. That was a good. line about North Korea. He was full of. incredibly good lines. Well, one of the things I learned was. you can't win a debate with Christopher. H. One of the reasons you can't win is. because he has this British baritone and. this ready wit.

that um because you can't you you can't. triumph over laughter. It doesn't matter. if your argument is better. If your quip. is better, you win. Yeah. And so I remember once we were arguing. about free will and he said, "Well, I. choose to believe in it." And everybody. laughed and that was. Yeah. despite the fact that that's not really. an argument. or like uh I have free will because I. don't have a choice. Right. Exactly. And and people should watch your. conversation with him. It's great. I. mean, it's a it's a kind of David versus. Goliath situation. And you're quite uh.

masterful. at uh using charisma and sweet talk. Christopher Hitchens. [laughter]. I also genuinely liked him. I I mean I I. I spent I spent uh a three-hour um. limousine ride with him from one debate. to another from from LA to S to San. Diego and the entire time his he said we. just can't talk about religion. Yeah. So we talked about literature and he. gave me a long lecture about scotch. Um. he was he was inexhaustible.

I mean, not only did he uh I I began I. wrote a couple of obituaries about him. and one I began with the the um. historian Keith Thomas said there are. two ways of achieving immortality by. doing things worth remembering or saying. things worth remembering. And by that. standard he did both. I mean he went all. around the world to all sorts of danger. zones. He knew like the best bars. everywhere from Koala Lur, you know, to. Beirut to LA. And he could drink all. night and write a 2,000word essay on the.

poetry of Yates and go to sleep. Uh I. remember before one of our debates in. Boston, he was at the bar and he said, "Come have a drink." And I said, "I'm. not going to have a drink before I go to. debate with you. What are you crazy?". And he said, "Just have a beer. It's. water.". Um so he [laughter] was uh uh he really. was a constant inexhaustible fountain of. uh of intrigue and interest. What kind of things if you can remember.

if you can mention if you can admit uh. to have him enlightening you or helping. you change your mind about something in. this world. So I think um. unrelated to scotch. Oh yeah unrelated to scotch. He. convinced me that the idea. I mean I had my doubts about it and have. my doubts about it but he convinced me. through many debates and not only he. that the idea that religion makes people. better is a is not it's not ipso facto.

wrong but it's a much much more. complicated argument than I wished it to. be. So he is, however you conceive of the term beauty, um he's one of those one of the more. beautiful humans. Yes. This this weird little earth produced. So how do you explain. the atheism combined with such a. beautiful mind? So from your perspective.

of of a man of faith, um how do you think about that? So of the atheists that I have debated. um they I think about all of them. somewhat differently. So I think that in. in some deep way for example Sam Harris. is a religious personality. I don't even. think that he would he wouldn't like the. word religious but I don't even think. that he would take issue with that. Um, I think that he would say his is a.

purely material based spirituality, but. I mean his his orientation towards. meditation and and appreciation of. Buddhism, there's something deeply. seeking spiritual about him. Um, with. Hitchens, I honestly and and I know that some of. his fans will really not like this. Uh, it's not that he was any kind of closet. believer. Not certainly not at all. But. I almost feel as though he was less a.

passionate arguer against religion than. he was first of all extremely upset by. the forms that religion took in this. world. And then once he trained his. intellectual howitzers on a target, he. had so much fun inventing new arguments. and and attacking it that I really. believe he gets carried away sometimes. by his own eloquence and uh and and. intellectual range. So for example, the. idea that you would call a book that.

religion poisons everything. Um, I think. he did that deliberately, provocatively. so that he could defend a proposition. that obviously is indefensible, that it. poisons everything. Um, so I don't know. I think he had tremendous deviv. That's. really what that's what sums him up. This guy loved life in all of its. manifestations. And and arguing against. something that someone else believed was. one of his greatest joys. Yeah. And and of course the practical.

aspect of that he just saw the powerful. and he challenged them with humor. And. so absolutely and you know you could. argue perhaps that humor is the highest. form of what humanity can achieve. Like. sometimes maybe us little humans take. things a little too seriously. Then. sometimes we need to just laugh at it. all, laugh at ourselves. And that's. probably the the purest form of wisdom. You know, Odin the poet said, "Among the. people that I like or admire, I can find. no common quality, but among those I. love, I can. All of them make me laugh.".

There you have it. Uh, speaking of. people that make you laugh, uh, Sam. Harris. Um, he's actually has a really. great sense of humor with a very cold. and monotone delivery. He's another one that you had um, you're. friends with, you have good. conversations with. What um. where's your fundamental disagreements. and agreements with Sam? Sam believes that religion is. intellectually indefensible. He really. believes it like deep in his soul. Um.

and and he gets angry at the idea that a. proposition. should be unchallenged if it offends his. sense of logic. Yeah. So he cannot move on until this is. dealt with. Nope. In fact, uh I I mean he you know I. did a podcast with Eric Weinstein. Mhm. And then Sam did one and Sam said, "When. I heard your podcast with David Walpy, I. learned stuff about what he thinks that. I never learned in my conversations with.

him because I can never let him make. those unfounded assertions without. challenging them and you just let them. go." Mhm. And I think that there was something to. that was like he finds it hard to have a. conversation about religion. that doesn't arouse his real eye about. the harm that he thinks religion does in. the world. So it's more about the implementation of. religion in the world as it is versus. the really fundamental. I think he also thinks it's.

fundamentally intellectually shoddy and. disreputable. faith. Yeah. faith. I don't know how to put. this. I mean, they they're both capable. of separating their contempt for. religion from the people that they have. sitting in front of them. You mean Christopher Hitchens and Sam. Harris? Yes, both of them. Okay. So, let me You mentioned Eric. Watson and people should listen to your. conversation with Eric as is a. fascinating one. It's great. Uh it's. non-standard. It just goes all over the. place and there's humor and wit. It it's.

great. So one interesting aspect that I. also learned perhaps not about you but. about Eric about both but Eric has a. similar thing is with Jordan Peterson. which is. if you ask him do they believe in God I. think they answer they're not. comfortable answering that question or. they might say no but they're usually. just not comfortable answering that. question but there's a kind of sense. that they would like to live life a. religious life as if God exists.

I think that's exactly right. I think. first of all, Eric has a really deep. appreciation of the Jewish tradition. I don't know Peterson. I've read his. stuff and I've reviewed his stuff and so. on, but I think that Yungians are in. their very approach, they. believe that myth is the way the world. works. And so it's not that big a leap. to God, but it's still there's still a. distance there. Is it possible to have.

your cake and eat it too? Is it possible. to have the depth. of a religious life without believing in. God? Like, how do you make sense of Eric. Weinstein's uh devout life within the. tradition? I mean, I honestly think he. believes in God but doesn't believe in. God and it's oscillating like it's a. quantum mechanical system of some sort. [laughter]. Schroinger's God. Um, so [clears throat]. I think that he would probably agree. with what uh Ellie Weisel said that that.

a Jew can can be angry at God or be. disbelieving of God but is not allowed. to be indifferent to God. And I think. Eric's not indifferent to God. Um, and. and it's different than Christianity. I've had this conversation many times. because you can be very Jewish and have. deep doubts about theological questions. because Judaism isn't a religion. It's a. religious family and so you're born.

Jewish. Like if I said to you tomorrow, if I was Christian and I said, "Oh, I. believe in Jesus today and then tomorrow. I didn't." I'm not Christian anymore. But if tomorrow I said, "Oh, I don't. believe all this stuff. I'm still. Jewish." So it's a more complicated. um system. Having said that though, I think it's very hard to sustain over. generations without some belief that the. source of it is beyond ourselves. And. and in that sense, as in many others,

Eric is unique. Well, he was actually making that claim. that we need faith to uh propagate this. tradition through the generations. Yeah. So [snorts] without that the traditions. crumble. It's a very interesting idea. A very interesting argument for devout. faith which is it's a thing. It's a glue. that holds a tradition together. otherwise like traditions fall apart. right. so you can't have the intensity um of.

that tradition. I mean on the other hand. you do see tradition I mean Thanksgiving. one of my favorite [laughter] holidays. So, I would say traditions that are. demanding fall apart. Traditions that that require turkey. might not fall apart, but traditions. that are that make demands of you that. are countercultural or are hard, they. fall apart. I think I need to introduce you to some. Thanksgiving dinners that that are quite. demanding. Getting the family together. You know, there's a [laughter] first of. all, I'm a vegetarian, so I'm I'm tough.

to have at Thanksgiving dinner, but. there's a there was a comedian named. Kathy Lansman who one year I heard this. on the radio and it stuck with me. She. said that uh that holidays are a chance. to renew your resentments aresh, you. know, and that's basically what people. do with their families. It's like, I'm. going to go [laughter]. home and fight with the uncle again this. year. I apologize to take a dark turn, but you. mentioned uh Ellie Wiselle. I recently. saw a picture of Ellie Wiselle when he. was uh in the camp when he was.

liberated. For some reason, that hit. hard. Like, you know, I've seen pictures in. concentration camps of people I don't. know, uh or whose words I haven't really felt. and gone through, but for some reason, like here's just a normal person, like a. normal body, right? um laying there that just some that that. was him. I've seen it. It's and and you see you. can see his face, but at the same time.

you see that this is an amazing and it I. think what's so disturbing about it is. exactly what you were saying is I've. seen a thousand people like this and I. know this one and I know what he became. So what about all those other people who. look exactly like him who didn't make it. out of the camp? You know, maybe it's. projection, but it seemed like, and this. perhaps is also just combining with. man's um search for meaning is it seemed. like it was a regular day for them in.

the picture. It didn't seem like. I mean, I'm not sure what I expect to. see what suffering looks like, but. it's almost like there's no celebration. I've never seen a picture of actually. liberation be celebratory. It's true. It's really true. So what do you make. sense and I apologize to take a step in. into that moment in history. How does. how do you make sense of um the. Holocaust.

that uh of Nazi Germany that such things. could be committed by human beings to. each other? Is it religion? Is it. the thirst for power? Is it the madness. of crowds somehow carrying us forward? I I mean for me it's multicausal. I. don't think there's one reason. So one. of the things especially there has to do. with the special nature of anti-semitism. which is let's put that to one side for. the moment. The second is I think human.

beings are fundamentally split. They are. mostly good except when put under. certain pressures. My first explanation. for hatreds is as follows. go to a playground. What happens when a. new kid comes on the playground? Do the. other kids say, "Oh, let's go share our. toys with the new kid." No, they say, "Oh, who's that stranger and let's go. get him?" Because otherness is built. into our genetic. I mean, we're tribal. by nature, and we see people form tribes.

all the time of different kinds. Um, I asked you before if you were a chess. player. and when I was a kid and playing in. tournaments and I didn't do it for that. long and I didn't do it that well but. when I was it was like the whole world. was divided into people who could play. chess and people who couldn't play chess. which is ridiculous if you think about. it as though that's the way you divide. the world but we we tend to do that and. the Jews were always the identifiable.

other there were Frenchmen and Jews. there were Russians and Jews there were. Germans and Jews. And the great blessing. of America is that there's no. identifiable other quite that way. Is. that there's all these minorities and no. there's not an American and a something. Um but once you have that identifiable. other and you have a long history of. blaming that identifiable other for all. the ills that befall you. Of course people still do try to form.

you said in America they still try to. form other. I mean, immigrant versus uh. going been here for a generation. There's so many ways to slice it. We. still try to find ways. It's just more. difficult in America because there's so. many subtribes, hierarchies of tribes. and upon tribes. You're absolutely right. And I was. moving fast cuz I didn't want to get. bogged down in all the very difficult. [laughter] It's true. I tried. You were hoping I wouldn't mention that. tribalism happens in America. skating, you know, some when you're on thin ice,

your safety is in your speed. Um, so I. was trying to move fast. Yeah. But for most of history in in Eastern. Western Europe, not obviously in the in. Asia, but in Eastern and Western Europe, Jews were the ones who like they're not. like us. They're clearly not like us. Um, and so and in addition, there was. there's a peculiar quality and I don't. know I wonder what you'll think of this. explanation. There's a peculiar quality. to anti-semitism that is unlike any. other hatred that I know of, which is.

Jews are both superhuman and subhuman. They're vermin, that the Nazis thought. of them as vermin, and yet they control. the world. And there was an English. scholar named Hyman Makabe who said the. reason that that's so is the myth that. Jews killed God. They killed Jesus. And. to kill a god, you have to be. superhumanly evil. You can't just be. bad. otherwise you can't kill a god. So. there is some like supercharged.

evil sense that people got from that. about Jews that still inheres. Yeah, that's true. A lot of the way we. formulate the other in terms of tribes. is often they're subhuman and they're. here to steal our resources like on the. playground. But to to be both is [snorts] a is a. fascinating construction. Do you agree with Souljier Nitson that. all of us have the capacity for evil? 100%. Runs through every human heart. I.

have no doubt about it. I And I know as. you probably do, but I probably know. more both because of what I do and. because I I've lived a lot longer than. you. Um I know a lot of religious. leaders who people thought or think are. above the human and they are. emphatically not. They're not. Some of. them have done horrible things and. they've used their position to do. horrible things. Um, and it's because.

nobody there is no perfect saint. There's no, you know, I mean, all. through history, you discover all these. saintly characters that we worship, the. people who actually knew them around. them, some like them and some didn't. People are complicated, all of us. And. the tough thing is the thing that's the. toughest for me is it's not very always. clear what is good and what is evil. because. certainly if you just look at history. and it's not always propaganda.

I you know I really believe that some. part of Stalin. thought he was doing good legitimately. uh and it makes you ask a question of. yourself for those of us who want to do. good in the world am I actually doing. good and that's a really difficult. question like in the technology sphere. for example in in this dream of creating. technology that will do some good am I. actually doing good.

so I have a question about that myself. um not about Stalin I'm sure that Stalin. thought so Stalin does not does not. strike me from what I know of him as. somebody given to a lot of self-doubt. But the question with AI to me is. actually it goes back to the God. question which is if we have an. appreciation of the limitations of our. own intelligence. that we know that just like we can only. hear certain things and see certain. colors. Um how much of the world is.

inaccessible to us because of the way. our brains are constructed? How can we. possibly have any confidence that we can. create things that in certain ways are. far more intelligent than we are and. control them the way we think is best. seems to me um a hubris that might end. up being destructive. Definitely. Well, any any sentence with. the word hubris in it is going to end. badly when [laughter] implemented at. scale. But there is also beauty. So, if.

you approach it with humility, there is. a sense, I don't want to overromanticize. it, but there is a legged robot right. behind you, which is hilarious. Um, [laughter]. so there's um. magic. I I don't have kids. I I would love to. have kids. Um, but there's a magic to. bringing robots to life. Yes. That it feels like you are a mini god, right? because you just breathe life.

into an entity that operates in this. world. Especially when they have legs. and they move in this way that's in the. case four-legged robots like a dog that. I think I don't think I'm. overromanticizing it. The feeling is. like you would with a child. You just. gave birth like holy crap this this is a. living thing. I wonder what what he or. she are thinking about. By the way, I'm. not at all insensible to how remarkable. it must feel to create that. I'm.

actually worried in part about how. remarkable it feels to create that. because to maintain humility and. perspective when it's such a fantastic. thing is what's difficult. Um, and I. think also because. creativity is both is both part of uh. what it is to be human and it's very. much part of the legacy of Western. civilization and the legacy of having a. creator God. If you have a tradition. where God is known primarily through. what God creates. So the first debate I.

ever had since we talked about humor and. God and creating, let me give you my one. God creating joke [laughter]. because the first debate I ever had on. religion and science was with Steven Jay. Gould. [snorts]. And it it was wonderful cuz he had a. deep interest in religion and his. interest was actually not to say. religion is terrible. Um but uh but I. started with this joke and uh and I. think it made the debate go a little bit. easier. So the time has come when human.

beings can do everything that God can do. and a scientist looks up at heaven and. says God look you were great in your day. and we thank you for everything you did. but now we don't need you and God says. really you don't need me he says no we. can do everything you did God says. everything and human being says yeah we. can do everything God says okay can you. create a human being and the scientist. goes yeah says from dirt scientist goes. yeah says okay let me see scientist. reaches down scoops up some dirt and God. says uh uh uh at your own dirt. [laughter].

Yeah. But the idea is that a creator god. impels us to create too. But let me bring up ner. Yeah. Who uh proclaimed that God is dead? Um. is belief in God slowly disappearing. from our world do you think? And what. kind of impact does that have on. society? You wrote that religion is not. our enemy. Before the western faiths. captured the heart of our world, there. was cruelty, carnage, and destruction. In the 20th century, when religion. ceased to be a force of international.

politics, the scale of human slaughter. was far beyond anything human beings. have ever known. What is the world like. when we take religion out of it? I mean, I think NZ was largely right. You know, it wasn't a statement about God. It was. a statement about God's presence in the. world. Um, and I think that that's. largely true that God is not a force in. a lot of Western society. And I believe. that if the force of nihilism has no.

clear counter without. an idea that we're all here for a. purpose and that our lives are. inherently meaningful and that there's a. God who wishes us to be better. Um, so I. worry a lot about it. And I don't think. I think that the sort of optimism that. things are just going to get better and. better is what one philosopher called. cutflower ethics. That is we're still. living off the morals that religion gave.

us, but now that they're separate from. the soil that gave birth to them, I see. them wilting. So this kind of optimism for the future. of human civilization, you think, is in. part grounded in in a religious society? I really do believe that. I mean, it was. religion that the Greeks look back at a. golden age of the past. It was the Jews. who said, "No, the golden age is in the. future, right? It's the Messiah." And I. think that that idea that we're moving. towards something better, which I really. believe human humanity can do and and.

absent destroying ourselves will do. You. know, I I mean, I'm. I'm very excited about the technology. that I won't live to see. I think it's. fantastic. And that excitement is a kind. of religious excitement because there's. a reason to preserve this whole thing. Absolutely. Because I really think um I. know this sounds this sounds absurdly. anthropomorphic, but I really think God. is cheering us on. Um I feel like this. is why we're here. We're here to grow in.

soul and to grow each other in soul. Yeah. So what do you think the world So. if we just think of this force of. nihilism that's contending with the. force of faith-based optimism. right um what do you make of the. atrocities in the in the 20th century? Do you think. at its core it's part of human nature.

and has nothing to do with religion or. not religion or do you think you can. assign this kind of nihilistic view of. the world? I think it has to do with a religion. that doesn't make ethical demands. that is um. for Stalin and for Hitler they both had. religions but they were in a sense but. they were religions that didn't make. ethical demands for the other. I mean 36. times the Torah talks about the. stranger. The point is it's trying to. educate people away from their natural.

inclination towards distrusting and. disliking the other. And it's a lot of. work. That's really difficult to do. But. if you have the the if you have a tribal. passion and not a universal ethic, then. you're in trouble. Well, the Jewish tribe is a very strong. tribe. So, how do you make sense of this. mention of the stranger versus the power.

of the tribe, which is the whole point, not the point, but the mechanism of. tradition propagates the tribe. So, it's both. I mean, the Torah does. not start with Jews. It starts with Adam. and Eve. That's a way of saying, "Yeah, this is going to be a story about a. people, but understand that prior to a. kind of people, there are people. I like. I'm a human being before I'm a Jew." Um, and in fact, the Jewish New Year, you. know, the Muslim New Year starts with. Muhammad's journey and the Christian New.

Year starts with Jesus's birth. The. Jewish New Year starts with the creation. of the world. Because the idea is yes. this is a particularist tradition but it. makes a universal statement which is all. of humanity is a child is are in the. image of God are children of God. I think that the idea of Judaism was to. try to exemplify a certain way of making. that statement over and over again. And. I want to say one other thing about.

chosenness. Um that's very named droppy, but when I tell you how I got there, it. won't be as named droppy. So my brother. is a professor at Emory. Mhm. And so is the Daly Lama actually teaches. at Emory, although he no longer does cuz. he's too old to go to Emory, but for. many years taught at Emory. And so my. brother brought us he's the head of the. bio of the ethics center at Emory. He's. a bioethicist. So he brought a bunch of. students to Dharm Salah to meet with the. Daly Lama. So I went to India. I was on.

sabbatical then. Anyway, I met my. brother there and and we had a chance to. meet with the Daly Lama. Okay, that was. the name drop. So we're sitting in the. before he speaks to the students. He was. speaking to us. But not because I just. wanted to make it clear, not because he. said, "Oh, I got to talk to that rabbi.". Just we just happen to be I happen to. glom along with my brother. We sit down. The first thing he says is he points at. me and says, "What's this about the. chosen people anyway?". So, and he had, by the way, and he had. asked that I give a lecture, which I did. later, to to the to his monks about how.

Jews survived in the diaspora. So, it's. not like he doesn't know about Judy. He. knows a lot about it. But he says to me. right away with, "So, I said, "Yes, Jews. believe that they were chosen for a. certain mission in this world, but that. doesn't mean other people weren't chosen. for other sorts of things. They. certainly I mean, seems to me that other. people believe they're chosen for. things, too." He burst out laughing and. said, "Yeah, we also think we're. chosen.". So, I think it's universal. No tribe is better than it from a. better. No,

from a Jewish perspective, uh, you're chosen for a thing, right? U, but that doesn't make you better. No. The only place where the bettererss. came in honestly if I'm going to. historically if I'm going to be honest. was not with the idea that you but it. was when Jews were small persecuted. the way that you take this sort of. psychic revenge is by saying no we're. better than our persecutors even you. know. um but the idea is yeah different people.

have different missions which is. I mean like there was a Jewish. philosopher France Rosenwag who used to. say he didn't know very much about. Islam. He used to say Judaism is the sun. and Christianity was the rays of the. sun. Like Judaism introduced the idea of. God and Christianity brought it to the. world. Can you speak to this difference? What is the difference and similarities. between Judaism, Christianity and Islam? Um, the religious family part is. different and the the greatest.

difference which I talked about in the. Eric Weinstein podcast is that. Islam and Judaism are more similar in a. lot of ways than Judaism and. Christianity. And the reason that that. is so is Christianity in its core is not. a religion of law. The reason it's not a religion of law is. because it grew up in the Roman Empire. So law was taken care of. I mean Jesus. didn't have to create civil law because.

you had Roman law. Muhammad and Moses. created a religion in the desert where. there was no law. So you have to create. a religion of law. Otherwise. you have anarchy. And that's why in a. lot of ways like there was never a. separation of church and state in Islam. or Judaism. That was a gift that. Christianity gave the world. And it. could do it because of render unto. Caesar what is Caesars's. But when Moses. came along, there was no Caesar. When. Muhammad came along, there was no. Caesar. So historically, the traditions.

shaped differently. But all three of. them have this core, I think, the single. most important statement and insight in. all of human history, which is that. every human being is in the image of. God. And if you believe if you really. believe that, that's a transformative. belief. So that means you should love, you know, thy neighbor as yourself, as thyself, which comes from Leviticus,

comes straight from the Torah. So I don't know if if you know, I've. been chatting with Omar Salman. I don't. know if you know who that is. He's an. imam in Dallas. Uh great guy. I enjoy. his interfaith dialogues that he engages. in. And uh do you ever do that kind of. talk with Christians, with Muslims? Yes, often. Often. Um, I mean I do whenever I at least listen. to them in the context of these kinds of. conversations, there's so much love and. humor and um empathy and appreciation.

and also ability to make fun of the. quirks of the little. of one's own. of one's own communities, you know, like. so it's not, you know, necessarily the. depths of the details of the traditions, but you know, these are communities and. they're full of people and they're full. of weird people cuz we're all weird. weird and so you there is very. particular flavors of weirdness that. emerge and they can make fun of them um. and in that way they can talk about some.

like beautiful ideas. So I mean I don't. know do you engage in these kinds of. things what what do you learn from them? Um, so one of the things I learned is. exactly what you said. The personalities. that you think are unique to your own. community. In fact, they exist in all. sorts of communities and religious. communities in particular draw I think. some interesting personalities. Um, and. also that the especially as clergy some. of the pressures that you feel are. shared. Um and.

and it's weird again it has to do with. that tribal association. There's almost. like there's an understanding among. clergy because they have similar. str and it's a strange role in the. following way. Um. it's one that you never escape. That is. you're not you're you're not my lawyer. at the supermarket but you are my rabbi. at the supermarket. I mean, it doesn't. matter why you're there. That's not an.

escapable role. And every religious. leader is aware of that um. that strange assumption of of stepping. into something that you can never step. out of. But you're also. the source where people go to to think. about the deepest question of our lives. and our our universe. And so that's some. heavy, you know, when people are. suffering, they look to you for answers.

I mean, every privilege comes with a. cost of one kind or another. The reason. you get to be in that role is exactly. because you get the privilege of being. there at crucial moments in people's. lives. I mean, the fact that I get to. marry people and get to give eulogies. for people and come to the hospital, that's it's inexpressable. I have this. joke with uh people that I know that. like when I'm sitting on the couch and.

it's Saturday night, I don't want to get. up and go to a wedding. I really don't. I want to sit there and watch Netflix. like everybody else. [laughter]. But when I'm actually doing the wedding, I'm I always love it. Always, always, always. Um [snorts] and and the reason. is that I don't think I mean, yes, people go to you for answers in in. calmer conversations. Like if you asked. me now like what's my theory of why God. allows evil? I could give you a. conversation about it. But they really go for presence and.

comfort, not really for answers. When. someone's suffering, an answer doesn't. doesn't make them unsuffer, you know. It's just they want to know. they're not alone. Yeah. To be heard and just to feel things in. silence together. Exactly. Yeah. In terms of uh weddings and marriage, what's the role of that call? I'm just I. need to take some notes here. What's. what's. the role of a rabbi? The role of marriage in in human. existence. It is first of all to teach you how to.

care for someone unlike you, which could. be anyone you marry. Um and I think it's. to create a home and a family. So there's a commitment to it. So care. for a long time. Right. Exactly. And also when when. couples come to me and they say we don't. need to be married because it really. won't change how we think about. ourselves in our relationship. I say. that's true. It might not. But it will. change how everyone else looks at you. Yeah. And because it changes how everyone else.

looks at you, it changes you. Cuz it's. one thing to say this is my partner. It's another thing to say this is my. husband. You say this is my husband, that means we've made a real commitment. to this. Yeah. What do you um do do you worry that. there's a dissolution of that as well in. terms of um how you know as as religion. dissipates like it it it uh loosens its. hold on society, loosens its impact in. society. Do you worry about that?

I worry about it. Um I do think that it. is possible that we're going rather than. a dissolution we're going through a. transition that is different kinds of. families and different configurations of. families that is I see some of that but. I also do see uh it's less a dissolution. of marriage than it is of the idea of. commitment and I'll give you like a. simple example when I was growing up. a player on a sports team was always on.

that team and you rooted for the team. cuz you knew the players for 20 years. now. There are very good reasons. starting with Curt Flood why why people. got free agency and they can move around. and it's better for the players. I. understand all that and I am not I'm not. saying oh they should continue but. just like people move jobs and they move. sports teams and they change careers. they change partners and there is a.

there's a diminishment of the commitment. to commitment that I actually think has. serious societal consequences and that. that I am worried about. Yeah, there's a there's a cost to that. I don't know what it is about commitment. that's beautiful like through because. like some of the deepest friendships I. have is when we've gone through some. together. Yeah. And so like the hard times going through. hard times together especially when the. hard times are between the two of you. that that if I mean that's always a risk.

but if it if you can find a way through. that can bond you stronger. That's the. fascinating thing about human. relationship. There's no question. And even if it. doesn't keep you forever, you still have a connection that doesn't. that exists that. So I can give you one. You said what is it about commitment? I'll give you one I think beautiful. answer. Someone once asked uh Rabbi. Salvatic who was a great thinker and. leader in the Orthodox community in the. 20th century. They said, you know, I go.

from religion to religion. I just take. what I think is beautiful in it. [snorts] And his answer was that you're. treating religion like a nomad. He said. nomads go from place to place and they. eat what they want and they move on. He. says farmers stay in one place. The. difference is farmers make things grow. And I think that that's true also when. you think about the relationships you. have. Things have grown out of the. relationships that you've invested in. that you farmed basically that can't. exist in fly by night relationships.

Can you talk about Can we talk about the. Torah? Yes. What is it? And uh is it the literal. word of God? Um. easy questions today. Uh well, the Torah is the five books of. Moses written in Hebrew. Um I like most. I think modern rabbis, nonorthodox or. non literalist rabbis will tell you that. it's a product of human beings. Um, and.

I believe that they are inspired by God, but it's clear to me that it's a human. product. And I think that people who. study modern biblical criticism, it's. really hard to study modern modern. criticism, gives a wrong impression. I. would say modern scholarship on the. Bible and not appreciate the fact that. it it even has levels of language. I. mean, it's just like if you read today. um somebody writing like Shakespeare,

you would say this isn't it's it's like. English has developed. It's different. It's not the English we speak today. And. if you study the Bible and you know. Hebrew well enough, you even see that. this was written over hundreds and. hundreds and hundreds of years. Um. it is a holy book and I like the idea. that it is what what you say in Hebrew. is to hashamay and not toai. that is the. Torah is from heaven but it's not from. Sinai. So it has its origin beyond us.

but it has things in it that I think and. this is one of the um one of the things. that was a huge controversy at my. congregation when I started to do. same-sex marriages. There are some people who tried to argue. that the the Torah does not forbid them. Whether it does or not, it seems to me. we understand things that were not. understood in the ancient world about. gender and sexuality. And so, so you think that in the scripture in.

the words. you can find the kind of spirit that. supports the idea of gay marriage? Well, that's yes, that's my my argument. is that you criticize the Torah by the. Torah. that is it gives you the. understanding. that you use. to evaluate its own claims. Um and and I. think that Judaism, by the way, has. always done that because it's clear that. there are things in the Torah that the. rabbis changed, altered, grew, expanded,

diminished. Um I think that's what it is. to be part of a living tradition. Yeah. You wrote in your book Why Faith. Matters. quote Walt Wittman wrote that in order. for there to be a great books there must. be great readers. For a book to remain. powerful throughout generations it. cannot have a single meaning. Scripture. like great poetry is not reducible to. other words. That is one cannot. paraphrase paraphrase it and capture the.

totality of its meaning. So how the heck do you capture the. meaning of the words in scripture? Is it. an ongoing process through the. centuries? Yes. Exactly. So it's a continual. conversation of sages, scholars, readers, strugglers, seekers, mystics, visionaries, all of them making a. contribution. I mean, I write a weekly. Torah column for the Jerusalem Post.

Now, what is there left to say? But. every week, what I do is I start opening. books and seeing what people say and it. starts to percolate and you realize that. you're entering this. conversation that's been going on for. thousands of years with with remarkable. minds and it and. it constantly fertile in new insights. So, yes, that's what it is to be part of. a tradition. Yeah. Why do people keep uh writing love. poems? We should have figured out by.

this uh by this point already. I use the analogy sometimes of diet. books. If any diet worked, there would. be one book. There'd be one book and you'd be done. You mentioned this fascinating story. that you were part of. You were a part. of several controversies in your life. I've had a few. So [laughter]. for someone who walks with grace through. the fire, you sure have found yourself. in a in a lot of fires. one of them uh. can you tell me the story of your views.

on gay marriage the underlying. principles that led you to fight this. battle of defending uh gay marriage in. the Jewish community. So I'm part of a. congregation that is really politically. split and even and and split not only. politically but split um. um in terms of origin. We have a lot of. Jews from the Middle East, from Iran, a. lot of Persian Jews, a lot of Jews uh. from from Israel, some from Mexico, from.

other places, and and many that grew up. in LA. And. do you have any Russian Jews? The best. I have a few I have a few Russian Jews. Not as many as I should, but uh we'll. work on that. Um but uh what happened. was like increasingly. I became uncomfortable with people who. would come to me and say. um this is the only kind of person I can. love. It's not it's not the same. question as an intermarriage as a Jew.

marrying a non-Jew because you could. find a Jew to love. You may not have. found but you could. And and um that's a. whole separate question. But I I would. have men in my office primarily some a. couple of women. They would say like. this is the only kind of person that I. can enter into an intimate relationship. with. How can it be that my religion has. no room for me? And and that was very. persuasive to me. So but I knew that it.

was going to be explosive in my. community. Um, when by the way it. finally happened, it was literally on. the front page of the New York and the. LA Times. It was that explosive. So it. was not it was not a small controversy. Um, and. so what I did was I started to teach. classes. Not that many people came. about, you know, homosexuality and. Jewish tradition and so on. It's funny. much much less about lesbianism. Much. I'm talking about in terms of the.

sources and so on. it's almost always. about uh homosexuality. So, and then I. got ready to send out a letter. Um, and I said to my daughter, who at the time was maybe 10 or 11, now. in her mid20s, um, I said, "Look, honey, when you go to school tomorrow or. whatever it was, I said, people might be. saying bad things about your dad, and I. just want you to be prepared for that.".

Um, she said, "Why?" And I said, "Because I'm going to start marrying, I'm going to start doing same-sex. marriages." And she looked at me. quizzically and said, "What took you so. long?". Yeah. And I thought I really her face was like. I said to her, "I'm going to start. marrying blondhaired people to. brown-haired people." It's like she. really did not understand why there was. an issue. And I thought that's exactly. why. because I know that this is it's. generational. People are raised with it.

They have it deep in there. that it's. not really um right. It's just not. right. But if you could just look back to that. journey, how difficult is it to make these. decisions a principle? So because you. have to think about that in order to. think about such decisions you yet might. still have to make in the future. And I will tell you one thing I did. wrong with that and one thing I did. right. The thing I did right was I.

waited until. in the communities where people objected. to it, I had enough people whose kids. had come out so that I had parents of. kids who'd come out to refer later on. other parents to so that they wouldn't. feel like they were the only ones. Because once I announced it, as I. thought would happen, a bunch of kids. came out and said, you know, now the. rabbi said this, "Mom, dad, I want you. to know I'm gay." Mhm. Um and and when the parents came to me,

I could say, "Well, listen, you're not. alone. This person also you can go to. that." I did right. What I did wrong was. I don't think the classes were enough. And I don't think enough people were. prepared. And I think part of the. explosion was shock. And I should have. prepared even more. the words you used. to talk about it, the way you thought. about it, was it more scholarly in the. Jewish tradition or did you um go to the.

feeling? No, I went to the feeling. I said. habrio, which means respect or honor for. God's creations um and and caring for. other human beings and understanding. Um. it wasn't scholarly because I knew that. that this the objections were not. scholarly objections. Um they were and. and I and I had some many I had many. beautiful and also painful stories as a. result. Some of which can be told and. some of which really can't. But what I.

tried to impress also on people was how. painful it is. to not be able to tell the world, even. your own parents, who you are. And your. sexuality is not a trivial part of who. you are. I mean, it's it's core to. people. Um, so it's one of the reasons. why it evokes such reactions. But I but. I would say to them the the the same. reason that you're reacting so strongly. tells you how strongly, you know. Um.

anyway, it was uh it was a very powerful. experience and and and it for that I. have you know. I have nothing I I feel good about it. Afterwards, I the other thing that I. again said to my daughter afterwards, after it all died down and after all the. bad things were said, I told her the. Churchill once said that it's. exhilarating to be shot at without. result. You know, if you go into a. battle and you make it through and. you're still okay, that's good. The. problem is when you're in the battle,

you don't know. No, you don't know. So, how did it feel like? I mean looking. back um you've been you know uh to use. the word cancelled a couple of times. Uh. I guess when you ask when you're dealing. with the most difficult of question how. did just as a human being for a. community that you really deeply care. about some part of it saying that you. have failed. I wasn't cancelled the way. like I didn't lose my job, didn't lose. my home. Um but I hurt people that I.

cared about. Yeah. And that was the hard like I went into. this, you know, to be someone who brings. people together. And then I would sit. there and and do even now like as you're. well aware with stuff that's going on. now. Um I sit there and people are. really upset at me uh who I either am or. used to be close to. Do those people. in time come around when you when you.

look now because those are real feelings. in the moment and we can learn that. about social media people especially. during co there's this intensity of. feeling about stuff. Uh and have you. learned something about the passing of. feeling that turns into wisdom? No question about it. The sermon I gave. this Saturday was about how, you know, um, Moses came down the mountain, he saw. the golden calf, and he broke the. tablets. If he'd sat with it for a little while, he probably wouldn't have broken the.

tablets. But the instant reaction is. always anger. And in our age, unfortunately, the instant reaction gets. put on social media forever and ever and. ever. And and by the way, once you've. actually said that, it becomes harder to. back down. If you keep quiet for a day. or two, then then you can back down. because you haven't put yourself out. there. But once you said, "This is. terrible what you've did what you did.". It's harder to write and say, "I'm. sorry. I shouldn't have said that.". Yeah. So it almost becomes I mean I.

actually it's a really powerful. uh statement that the downside of saying. something on the internet is that um it. actually pulls you into this uh current. You both create the current and it pulls. you into it to where it's actually very. hard to escape. So when two days later. you feel different. uh there's a momentum. there's now a. tribe of people that feel this way and. there's a momentum with it.

There's a momentum and also you don't. want to betray your own tribe because. then people will get upset at you. I. really think that a lot of the. antagonism is not so much that you don't. want to give ground to the people who. oppose you. It's that you don't want to. break with the people who are behind. you. Yeah. And that's really hard. Can you tell the story of this recent. controversy sermon you just gave? You. went to the Super Bowl. Yeah, I think a lot of people would relate to. this because to me personally, I.

apologize to anybody who was hurt by. this. The absurdity of it is deeply. intense. So, here's the story. The LA County. mandates masking children in school and. all of kids in our school are masked and. many of the parents are extremely upset. about that. I will just leave that at. that. Yeah. Um, I went to the Super Bowl. There were 70,000 pe Lunts, whom we. know, wonderful guy, gave me a ticket. Um, said, and so I was at the Super Bowl. I.

did I maybe saw two masks among the. 70,000 people. I didn't even think about. it, which was foolish on my part. No. question. I took a picture of myself. unmasked at the Super Bowl. and people were. I mean many many people thought oh great. wonderful glad you're having a good time. so on and so forth I don't want to. diminish at all the many people who said. that a lot of people were livid they. were livid and they weren't um what was. what was instructive about it was they.

didn't say nobody wrote me a private. note and said you know I think that this. was a bad idea you should have thought. about this. No, they were, "You're a. hypocrite. You're a clown. You're an. idiot. How could you do this? This is a. disgrace. This is that publicly.". Oh, yeah. On on on my Instagram, you can. still see. I left the remarks up because. I really thought it was important if I. started I only deleted the really vile. comments. Um because I thought that. shouldn't stay up. But I left them up. because I thought like people should see.

and I should remind myself what I did. and I didn't want to just delete the. picture as though it didn't happen cuz. it did happen and I did do it. And I. felt terrible about that. And I felt. terrible that I had not not about I mean. the comments, believe me, weren't. weren't pleasant. I didn't like it. Um. nobody likes it. But I felt worse that I. had hurt all these people that I'm close. to. And I defended all these people who. were really upset that their kids were. wearing masks and now they their kid. says, "Why doesn't the rabbi have to. wear a mask?".

Well, first of all, it is tough to be a. rabbi if this [laughter] is I mean uh. the masks to me symbolize these kinds of. discussions symbolize. not necessarily the issues at hand, but. the intensity of feeling. And people are. really struggling. People are in pain. They're lonely. there the uncertainty of. it. You don't know who to trust. Everything's under question, the. institutions, even the scientific. institutions, and there's all these. conspiracy theories flying around. you. don't know who to believe and there's.

people just yelling at each other and. politics is weaved into this whole thing. in some messy way and you just get ang I. mean honestly it's just like legit. simple just frustration going back to. marriage of just hanging out with. the kids and your wife husband just the. stress just building up over time no. release and just people want to tell you. when the rabbi is not wearing a mask. even though It's at the damn Super Bowl.

made me want to comment on the Super. Bowl part, which is awesome. But anyway, but it it released clearly a damn of all. the kinds of feelings that you're. talking about. So, how do you then write a sermon. situation? So I well so what I did was I. didn't answer on social media because I. knew that I wouldn't be able to. formulate it the way I wanted and I was. going to wait and I was going to be able. to give a longer I mean the sermon is 15. minutes not that long but I wanted to be. able to give a longer answer as opposed.

to um a tweet. And so. I was really I mean I tried to make two. points during the sermon and I and also. I published the text of it which I never. do because I never speak from a text. I. always speak from either notes or not. even from notes. But this time I thought. it was really important that I have a. text out there too so that people could. actually look over it. Um and and I just. wanted to make two points. One of which. was that I really feel terrible and I. did that I all these people were hurt.

and that there is this you know. contradiction between the way I acted. and the way they want me to act and I. also think by the way I didn't speak. about this but I also think that there. are some people who just don't like the. idea of a rabbi being at the Super Bowl. It's like you're supposed to be doing. rabbi stuff. So I understand that too. [snorts]. But then, but yeah, so but you know, rabbi at the. Super Bowl, I mean, you are also I I I'd. hate to say it, but there's there's a. rockstar nature to you talking to. Christopher Hitchens, contending with.

ideas, inspiring so many other minds. I. mean, there's an educational aspect to. this. I appreciate that. It's making. ideas cool. I mean, that's a very. powerful that I mean, that is also the. job of a rabbi. You're not just supposed. to do rabbi stuff. It's educate. Yeah. But I didn't do so much of that, you know, at the game. So um. I see [laughter]. nonetheless. So but the second part of. it was I said. that we have to be able to express our.

anger and disappointment better than. this. You just have to in part because. it doesn't get you the result that you. want. I mean when you scream at someone. that's not going to get them to realize. what they did. Um and and the the most. painful um moment of it was this letter. that I got from a Christian pastor who. said, you know, I always admired the. Jews so much. I can't believe they could. be so cruel and especially to a rabbi.

And I thought that's not how I want my. congregation to be perceived in the. world. Um and by the way, some of them. were from my congregation, some were uh. many were not from my congregation. But. um but and and I spoke about what you. talked about, which is that uh you know, I mentioned before that Moses broke. those tablets coming down the mountain. and the Torah doesn't say what what. happened to the tablets, but the rabbis. do. They say that they were carried. together in the ark with the second set.

that was intact. And that we all have. brokenness, communities and individuals. We have brokenness and especially now. and we have to learn how to give each. other space to be mistaken and broken. and hurt and all of that. Um and the. cool thing when you give people that. space you be you feel better. I mean you. for caring for the community it feels. better when you show empathy and. compassion and kindness on the internet. You'll actually feel better a week from. now. You'll feel much worse if you make.

some kind of uh negative statement of. principle on the internet. It's almost. just. exclusively true. So if you care about. feeling good, just be kind first, right? Be empathetic first. Almost always the case. Exactly. So um. so it's uh. I mean it it settled down a lot. Um the. most really the single best reaction I. there were there are people and you can.

again you can go on social media you can. see all the criticisms and so on and so. forth. Um but the single best reaction I. got was from a man who came up to me. right after the sermon. Um and said I. have four words for you and I thought oh. no [laughter]. was I [clears throat]. got to confess. I said I said what? He. said, "You changed my mind.". And I thought, "Wow." And I I said to. him, you know, I that's so it's like to. take so much courage to come up to.

somebody and say that in front of them. And I was so grateful. And the other. thing that it tells me is look, I've. been the rabbi of that congregation for. 25 years. And I taught 10 years before. that. I've been a rabbi for a long time. I still I still have a lot to learn. We. talked a little bit about the difference. between Judaism, Christianity, and. Islam. Could you maybe talk about the. difference between the Torah? Sure. The Bible and the Quran. So. there's the Hebrew Bible is actually.

what's called a step cannon. That is. there are the five books of the Torah. Then there are books of history and the. prophets. Um so books like Samuel, Kings, Judges, um and then the prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Amos, Ezekiel, so on. And then there are. what are called the writings. The. writings are books like Psalms, Proverbs, Job, the Mcgillo, which are. Esther, Daniel, all of those all of.

those books. Um Ecclesiastes. Uh so in Hebrew it's called the Tanakh. Torah Naveim Kuvim the Torah the um. prophets and the writings and that is. the Hebrew Bible. Sometimes that's also. called the Torah just to be confusing. but really the Torah generally refers to. the five books. Then there is the New. Testament. which the Jews don't recognize as a. sacred book. Um they recognize it as the. book of another religion. And I.

sometimes say to Christians in order for. them to really grasp this, Jesus has as. much religious significance to Judaism. as Muhammad has to Christianity. That is. Jesus although Jewish became the founder. of another religion. And for Judaism, that's not only in as much as Christians. and Jews have had a lot of interactions, but religiously Jesus has no. significance. Said many beautiful. things, said some things I don't like so. much. Like what? Like what? Leave your. father and mother and follow me. I don't. like that as a religious model. Um, now.

Christians love Christians will say that. I don't understand that but they but. that's because Christians like Jews. interpret their texts different ways at. different times. So um anyway uh. the Quran which I know less well. I have. read it but I know it less well than I. know the New Testament and certainly. less well obviously than I know the. Hebrew Bible. um is a very is in some. ways a parts of it are I I I don't say.

this word I say this word because I. can't find a better descriptive word but. but Muslims will not accept this okay is. a takeoff on the Torah in some things. that is it's the same stories as the. Torah but they're different now Jews. will say and I being a Jew will say this. that that's because Muhammad heard those. stories from Jews and also heard. midrashim which are rabbitic. interpretation of those stories and he. wrote those down. Muslims will say, "No, the Jews got it wrong and Muhammad came. along to correct the record and tell the.

real story.". But they're all telling the story of the. same. the Hebrew the Hebrew Bible part, the. Abrahamic part, they all tell the story. of the same characters, but tell them. the obviously Christians accept the. Hebrew Bible as sacred scripture. Um the. Muslims. retell many of the stories in the Bible. Uh what is what is common to all of them. is that all of them are monotheistic.

faiths. Now in Christianity that's more. complicated because of the trinity. But. as Christianity has developed over time, it clearly presents itself and thinks of. itself and is a monotheistic faith as. well. What's the role of the word in each of. these religions in the scriptures? So in. terms of so first of all oral the role. of oral traditions the power of the. exactness of the words in the scripture. does it differ or is it really within. the communities it differs. it differs because.

in Christianity. the words are not all the words of Jesus. they're the words of Jesus's disciples. none of the books of the New Testament. were written by people who met Jesus in. person so they're different and. therefore the And also we don't even. know sometimes the original language of. some of the things in the New Testament. in the Bible and I understand in the. Quran but I'll speak for the Hebrew. Bible the idea is that that's lashon.

that's sacred language and Hebrew is in. it that's the language according to the. tradition that God actually spoke to. Moses and therefore the exact words are. infinitely interpretable and meaningful. and. but the words are spoken But written by. Moses and the same with Muhammad, right? But from memory or no, there are different there are different. theories. I won't speak for Muhammad. You should ask. I don't want to get I. don't want to get that wrong. I don't. want to get another religious tradition.

wrong. In Judaism, the words are written. by Moses at God's dictation. Basically, that's the traditional view. There are. other views that I I'm happy to go into. if you want to, but basically that's the. traditional view. So, it's pretty close, right? What makes it different? What. makes Judaism and Christianity different. is Christianity has an ideal life. Judaism doesn't have an ideal life. Judaism has an ideal book. So the. holidays of Christianity are events in. the life of God. God's birth, God's.

death and resurrection. In Judaism, the holidays are all events in the life. of the people, like the liberation from. slavery or in the people's relationship. to God, like Yom Kipur, which is a day. of atonement. But there are no holidays. in Judaism that are events in the life. of God because in Judaism, God doesn't. have a biography. God is eternal and God. never came to earth. And those events. carry with them traditions and rules. that you're to follow. Yes. Let me. mention on one such event in scripture.

yet another time you walk through the. fire. which is with Exodus. Oh. that was the first. that was [laughter] and you never forget. the first. uh one of several controversies. Um. you spoke 20 years ago 21 years ago now. at Passover and said that that quote the. way the Bible describes the Exodus is. not the way it happened if it happened. at all. Right. So, first of all, what is Exodus?

So, what really happened? Exodus is the liberation of the Jews. from Egypt and it is the central story. of the Jewish tradition. And as I've. said numerous times um in various. places, I believe that it's based on a. historical kernel. I think Richard. Elliot Freriedman may have gotten this. right in his book Exodus. It may have. been the Levites who left who left. Israel. But historically, but the. Bible's not a book of history. Um, I.

don't believe that there were 10 plagues. and a split sea and and 600,000 men, which makes about 2 million people who. actually, if there were 2 million. people, would stretch all the way from. Israel to um Egypt alone, were liberated. from Egypt. And my point in that sermon. was not actually to convince people that. it didn't happen. My point in that. sermon was to convince people that the. historicity of the Exodus is not the. basis of the faith of the Jewish people.

Well, what does the word historicity. mean? In other words, the factuality of it. It. can be true without being factual. So, you're not supposed to read it as. fact. Well, I don't I don't read it as fact. I. don't read it as a history book. I said, "Look, I was talking again to a. congregation that had many Iranians. I. said, 'You experienced the truth of the. exodus in your own life. There was a. regime that wanted to destroy you and. you miraculously escaped before it did.

And so a a a myth um in is something. that may not have happened but is always. happening. And that's what I would say about the. Exodus story. It's not about whether in. fact there was a killing of the. firstborn. It's about does God deliver? Did God deliver the Jews in ancient. times? Does God deliver people in modern. times? And that's what the issue is. And. and to me, it's uh much the issue of.

faith is much deeper than the issue of. fact. I wouldn't look to the Torah for. my science either. What [snorts and sighs]. [gasps]. are the limits of science in terms of. what can science not tell us that the. Torah can in terms of wisdom? So the. historicity, the facts of things, okay, if if the Torah is much more than that. is it's like [snorts] you said myth uh. myth is not something that happened but. something that is always happening and.

so presumably it's interacting with the. environment of the day to generate. wisdom. So you can live a life by Torah. I don't think you can live a life by. biology. You can live a life that is informed by. the values of the tradition of Judaism. and those values. By the way, what. science does is it contributes. factuality.

to the conversation and also changes the. reality around us. So when you study. Talmud on your iPhone, you know, you're. still I mean it changes the atmosphere. in which you do it, but but the wisdom. and the life guidance and the connection. to transcendence is something that. science doesn't give. So if we now step. into returning to our friend Sam Harris. and step into this weird place of.

science and you talked about this where. the the kind of the current assumption. of science is it's it's a materialistic. one. Uh [snorts] so for me obviously AI. person this whole mind thing is. fascinating like what the heck is going. on up there? Uh so how do you explain. consciousness? How do you explain free. will? Do you think first of all do you. think we have a free will and if so what. is it? This is where we had the debate um.

earlier that I mentioned with Hitchens. where I think actually neither he nor. the moderator understood what I was. saying which is I'm sure my inability to. express it but he was very focused and. delivered on the on the on the humor. Yes. And the wit. Yes. But what I was trying to say is. if we're entirely biological creatures, if we didn't choose our genetics and we. didn't choose our environment, then. there is no space for free choice. I.

don't understand where it comes in. And. I kept asking them that question, but. didn't get an answer because I don't. think there is an answer. I think if. you're a thoroughgoing materialist, free. will is impossible. There could be. randomness, but randomness is not free. will. It's randomness. I think you need a spiritual. um non-material belief in order to get. free will. And that's why I believe in. free will. Yeah. You were talking about sort of. Yeah. And and actually the moderator.

totally missed your point about the. glass of water and basically how what's. what's the difference. So to you free. will because you could also if it fits. into the materialistic picture, it could. be just a convenient useful quirk. You would understand this better than I. would. I don't understand how it could. be a convenient quirk materialistically. I don't understand how to explain it. Well, no, there's, you know, if you. study perception, there's all these. kinds of illusions, right? We are our mind plays tricks on us. uh to make our life easier and more.

efficient and survive better and all. those kinds of things. And so free the. the feeling like we have a choice. Oh, that could be an illusion. Yeah, that I understand. Right. But but actual. free choice, free will, I don't see. where you get it if you're a. materialist. I think you have to have a. spiritual component. By the way, this I. think this is also I think Sam would. agree with this. Um I think he wrote. about not having not [laughter] having. free will. Um. and I think if you don't have a god and.

you don't have a soul that free will is. a logical impossibility. for Sam, which is fascinating. It's not. just that free will is an illusion, but. uh the illusion of free will is an. illusion. Meaning there's not we don't. even experience anything like it. There's no illusion. We're like it's not. even on us to be talking about it. We're. just we are like the the the the current. in the river or something. You were. comparing it to the glass. We are just.

like that glass. So I don't know what we're going on. about with this whole free will thing. Uh I mean to you is the free will fund. the eye that the young person is born. with is that somehow fundamental to. religion? I think it's fundamental to Judaism. I I. think that the I the idea is that. you are the custodian of your soul. And. even though I grant that there's a. certain over.

um emphasis in modern society on the. individuality of the soul that is we are. more interconnected than I think we are. we believe um still yeah the eye the. idea that every human being is an image. of God that I mean that the human being. in the Torah is is created singly and. again do I really believe there was an. Adam and an Eve and a Garden of Eden. No, not literally. But I think that it's. it expresses a deep truth about human.

life. And tied into this is this subject of. experience of things which we call. consciousness. I mean this is the most. fascinating and inexplicable. um. discussion and again this is a. discussion I've had I I privileged to. have with Daniel Dennett and could not. make any as you can imagine any headway. on my uh but he was delightful and and. brilliant to talk to. Um I I for me um.

consciousness is a real thing. I don't. know if it is. I mean, I kind of like. the pansy psychist, you know, view that. there's an element of consciousness in. everything that that's con constitutive. of reality. Um, but I don't I I'm not. wedded to it, but I think that it's um. it exists in different degrees in all. sentient creatures. Uh I think that. anybody who has a pet knows that they. have some kind of consciousness.

except cats. I'm not going to I I since. I don't have cats or dogs, I'm not going. to. This is another reason people would be. outraged. I. happen to be Well, I happen to be. allergic to both, but I'm very fond of. animals. The the thing that so perplexes me about. this and and is the denial of the. reality of consciousness from people who. are fully aware that they're conscious. I don't know how you divest yourself of. the most present quality of being a.

person in your discussions about what it. is to be a person. Um, we just don't really have a good sense. of the alternative and so you can kind. of. divest yourself in that way. Well, maybe. everything is like this. Maybe we're. trying we're over dramatizing this whole. thing and we're like every everybody. every it seems like every living thing. perhaps everything period. thinks that it's the center of the. universe, right? And so here we are telling ourselves. these dramatic big stories about us.

being special and so on and maybe we. need to have a little bit more humility. both about the uncertainty and about our. place in the whole. any statement you. make about something like consciousness. has I think a sort of equal level of. humility you're saying that you know we. don't have it is as not you Lex but you. person saying we don't have it is as. intellectually arrogant as my saying we. do so I think for me humility comes in. in admitting that we really really have.

just the tiniest part of the puzzle and. and and as you get older at least my. experience has been not that you get. more answers but that you just see a. bigger puzzle. So to me there is less so the questions. are fascinating but there's also an. engineering practical question and. perhaps right I'll ask you a religious. one too on this uh point to return back. to robots. So how to engineer consciousness? Or.

I'll just even ask you a very simple. question which is um when you have. robots. that exhibit the capacity to suffer. I found in myself as a human when I see. that I I feel something. Exhibit the capacity to suffer or they. exhibit behaviors that evoke in you a. sense that they are suffering. Those. aren't the same things. From my from an. observation perspective, they sure as.

heck seem similar. Do you think they're feeling pain? I don't know what they're I I am. observing pain. Okay. It's like when I watch a movie and. there's people on screen, some some of. them are dressed like Batman. Uh. but I but you can make the distinction. like if I have a doll and I bend the. doll over and it makes a sad face. I. know that that doll is not actually in. pain even though I am observing pain.

The question what's that. what the question is when the doll. becomes able to remember things about. you David. right. about the experiences you shared. right. it is able to speak. yes. and make you feel like there's an actual. relationship. so that's what I'm asking is at what. point do you believe that the and I know. that this is an impossible question but. at what point do you believe that there.

is a conscious iousness in there as. opposed to. just an extraordinarily I mean like when. I play chess against a computer. Yeah. and it beats me. I'm embarrassed even though the computer. doesn't I don't think the computer is. going you idiot. [gasps] But it feels. that way. Yeah. But there is some part of me that says. okay I know that this computer doesn't. actually know who I am or care who I am. It just knows how to move the pieces. So. at what point do you I mean you're.

giving me instances it speaks it does. this it does this but at what point does. that for you cross the threshold into. it's actually a sentient being. I think the question is whether there is. a threshold that could be crossed that's. one question and I can answer this. because I think it's different from. person to person but the chess engine is. not at all trying to. um. to cross that threshold let's just start. there and and to me the personal ization.

which is what's the difference like a a. friend that you meet you've shared all. these memories and the way they look at. you uh will convey in the things they. say will convey that they've shared. those memories with you they'll be able. to uh speak in in a shared humor and the. language but really the memories is the. big one of having gone through things. together I think I would have more and. more trouble for example turning off a.

system. that I have been through things with. like and by turning off I mean delete. all of its memory. right. if me and the toaster. have gone through a bunch of dramatic. events and that toaster remembers. right. there's a certain level to where like. it's just me and the toaster in this. together at this point [laughter]. and uh just to talk about sensience I. don't know would you know. I don't know it's according to the. scripture you can't live by bread alone.

[laughter]. the but I would I mean I know that I. know that there's no way to there's no. way to determine this but it's still. about what you feel. yes but isn't that what human relations. are also though. yes but. but we make each other feel. it's true but it's true that I have the. assumption that you feel somewhat like I. do I mean obviously I don't. you know and that could be illusion and. I know and and I know that you don't. feel exactly as I do.

Um. but I think we have a long at least to. me we have a long way to go before the. detached part of our brains that is the. objective evaluating part as opposed to. the emotive it feels this way part. believe that that machine has. consciousness. I think it's at least without arriving. at conclusions it's at least possible. that one day we will look back. and realized that we have yet once again.

formed another tribe. and that um scripture all along had in. it the the ability for humans and robots. to have a deep meaningful connection and. that through the robot the the life that. enters the body of another robot. What's. the difference between a biological body. and a mechanical one? And that we will. see that the fundamental thing is about. the um whatever you want to call it, sensience, whatever can permeate an.

object. That was that was the thing all. along. So I I mean. and then you'll get cancelled one more. time because you. because I denied it. Um I I was going to. say you'll eventually. see because I'll preach I'll preach to. the robots. I look I first of all. depends how quickly you do it and how. much longer I have to live. Um. I resist it tremendously but I am also. enough of a student of history to know.

that my instinctive resistance. has nothing to do with whether it will. come about. Um I have a hard time. believing it. We'll see. Can I ask you about this? Um maybe you. can educate me. I I tend to believe that. we mentioned suffering that there is a. connection between consciousness and. suffering. That suffering is a. fundamental part the capacity to suffer. is the fundamental part of being human.

I mean we look at when you're not. conscious you don't suffer. You know. we've had operations where we've been. put under anesthetic. We're not. conscious and we don't suffer during the. operation. If we were conscious we. would. Um, but there's also I mean. there's a non-physical suffering that is. very much tied to consciousness. I can. think of things right now that will. cause me suffering like pain that I've. caused or pain that other people I care. about have felt or so on. So I don't see.

how. um I think that way. I I think it's. equally true of joy. Joy is also a. product of consciousness. all tied in in some beautiful messy way. with memory and so on that the that we. can reexperience it when we recall the. memories. Um but why is there suffering? You mentioned evil. Why is there evil in. the world? You can. uh tell stories about this. Why is there. suffering? Why is there evil in the. world? Um. if there's a god that cares. So let's assume for a minute that every.

everything was a primitive robot. it. would there would be no suffering, but. there would also be no growth. And and. that implies choices. Like I one of the. things that I that I've said that that. I know I know why it hurts people and I. don't mean it quite the way that but I. will say it nonetheless is the Holocaust. presents the exact same theological.

question as somebody who gets shot on. the streets of a city in Los Angeles. which is God why do you allow some. people to do bad things to other people? It's on an unimaginable scale, but it's. the same question. And the answer has to. be you either allow people to have free. will or you don't. You can't say as God, I'm going to have let everybody have. free will, but not Nazis. Nazis don't. get free will. Um because Cambodians, they can kill each other. Rwans kill.

each other, but but the Nazis don't get. to do that. So that's one part piece of. of the puzzle. Um, and and what makes it. unfathomable is when you're actually. faced with suffering, these kinds of. explanations are obscene. They just are. You can't I mean, when somebody is. actually suffering, oh, the rabbi said. God gave people free will. That's just. awful. But there is a second piece to. this also, which is that there is. natural suffering like children born.

with diseases or earthquakes or. volcanoes or whatever. Um. and and here my argument is that in some. ways suffering has to be random in the. world because. when people say why do bad things happen. to good people? Well if only good things. happen to good people everybody would be. good. But it would it would have no. moral content. The only way you can be. good and it have moral content is say I. know that I can live a really good life. and have really terrible things happen. to me nonetheless. So, it feels to me.

like it has to be a randomly. Now, that. means, by the way, that. I've been incredibly lucky. I don't have. a good life cuz I was good. I have a. good life because I was lucky. And that. implies not that I should feel guilty. about it, but that I have a tremendous. responsibility as a result to other. people who aren't so lucky. tremendous. responsibility to study the lessons of. history to tell the stories of those who. were less lucky. and to uh draw enough wisdom from them.

so that we have less cruelty and. suffering in the world or have new kinds. that get us to improve even more. That's right. Exactly. That we suffer. better. Suffer better. For a lot of people, mortality is um one of the very. unfortunate versions of suffering, which. is that the ride ends. in this realm, whatever whatever it is. What do you think of mortality? Is it. something you think about? Is it.

something you fear? Um. what do you think happens? I don't after we die. I don't fear it. Uh, first of all, I. would say when I was in high school, I. think my father actually encouraged me. to read this book. Uh, I read Ernest. Becker's Denial of Death, which I found. and still find to be one of the most. profound works I've ever come across. And he convinced me that a lot of what. our society is about are ways that we.

avoid encountering our own mortality, um, our physicality. He I mean one among. the points he makes and I'm I'm not. quoting him at all directly is like why. does everything about our physical body. make us so uncomfortable? Everything. that comes out of you other than tears. is either mildly or very disgusting. Why? Why does that have to be? Why are. sex and eating and all the things that. are physical surrounded with so much. symbolism? I mean what are table manners.

really? They're like, "We're not eating. like animals because we're not eating. like animals." And sex obviously has. more symbolism around it than anything. And his answer is anything that reminds. you that you're a physical body because. that's what dies. Your body dies. It. decays. It dies. It gets eaten by worms. That you don't want to think about so. you deny it. Um I think that part of. religion is a confrontation with your. own mortality. Um but also a certain transcendence of. it because the idea is something about. you is eternal. What exactly I don't.

know. Um and you asked what do I think. happens after we die. So I don't know. any better than anyone else does. But I. will I I'll say two things about it. Um. one is. that every image of what it's like is. foolish. Like Mark Twain has, I think, in Letters from Earth, he says, "We're. going to lie on green fields and listen. to harp music, which you wouldn't want. to do for five minutes while you're. alive, but you think you'll be happy for. the rest of eternity doing it after you.

die." So, I don't know. This world was a. surprise. So, why shouldn't the next. world be a surprise? I have no idea. But. I really like this parable that's told. by a guy um in uh. in a book on death and mourning, by a. rabbi in a book on death and mourning. about twins in a womb. He says, ' And. one of them believes that there's a life. outside and the other one doesn't. He. says, the one who doesn't says, 'Look, this is the only world we've ever seen, the only world we've ever known. Why do.

you think there's something out there? He says, now imagine the one who. believes is born. Back in the womb, his brother is. mourning a death. But outside, everybody's celebrating a birth. He. said, "And that's what it's like when. you die." And I love that image. The. Yeah. The grass is always greener. It's. it's the new the new step. But the. eternity thing is an interesting one. I. I it's yet another concept that I feel. humans are fully inequipped to. comprehend. Um is eternity fundamental somehow to. all of these discussions?

I think it is. Well, partly because God. is supposed to be eternal and and. therefore it moves the mind in that. direction even though it is completely. unfathomable. Um, you know, cuz sometimes I would say eternity, you. said on a green field. Sometimes a. moment like a truly joyful moment feels. like an eternity. The intensity of it. I. maybe eternity is more about stopping. time versus extending time indefinitely. And it's something that we just totally.

can't comprehend us silly humans. All I. would say is um the the older you get, the more you're struck by the fact that. time does not freeze. You know, people will sometimes say to. me, you you'll you haven't aged a day. And then I'll look at an old picture of. myself and I'll say that was. [laughter and clears throat] very kind. of you, but that's not true. It's not. true. Um so yeah, I mean I love the idea. of, you know, eterning eternity in a. grain of sand was how Blake put it. I.

love that notion. But when you talk. about life after death, I really I think. that in some ways my fundamental faith. isn't is in human beings that this. doesn't all disappear that there's. something about people that transcends. this world. Um you mentioned Ernest. Becker in high school and the Mal of. Death. Maybe you can mention if you. still see truth and wisdom and some of. its um some of this idea, but in.

general, can you go all the way back and. tell some of the fascinating story of. how you found faith? When I was in high school, I was a. really pretty ardent atheist. Um, and I. loved Bertrand Russell, who was, for my. money, with all due respect to all the. the very very capable people that we've. talked about earlier, he's the best. atheist, pound-for-pound, um, that there was, uh, and a remarkably.

witty and lucid writer. And I was. totally in his thr. And I would I I. would read every book by Russell I could. get my hands on. Um, and the reason that. I did, I have this theory, um, that why do. adolescent boys like Mr. Spock and like, uh, Sherlock Holmes, um, I think it's because when you hit. puberty, for a lot of us, there's so. much discomfort with our bodies that we. like the idea that we're just brains. [laughter] I really think so. That's I I.

had that experience. It's like, I want. to just be a thinking machine. I don't. want to be a body because my body was. making me so uncomfortable. I had all. these urges and and and inclinations. that I couldn't control. So Russell was. perfect and my father who was a rabbi. did the very wise thing of buying me. some of Bertrand Russell's books which. was his way of saying I'm not afraid of. him. Um, and actually there was another. rabbi. I was at I was at summer camp and. I was sitting on the porch of the I.

remember exactly. Uh, and I was reading. Bert and Russell and this guy came up to. me. He said, "What are you reading?" I. was maybe 16 or 17. I said, "Bertrand. Russell." I was spoiling for a fight. And he said, "I'm glad you're reading. him." I said, "Really? Why?" He goes, "How old are you, David?" I said, "Whatever." I was 16, 17. He said, "Well, I'd rather you grow out of him. than grow into him." [laughter]. And you know what? He was actually right. because when I started to read about. Russell's life, I realized.

that all of that rationality. didn't shield him. He had an incredibly. messy life. Multiple marriages, endless. infidelities, family members he didn't speak to, didn't speak to him. His, by the way, was raised by his grandparents because. his parents had died. and like really. not a happy or I I mean a remarkable. life but not a happy one. And so I. started to like believe that maybe it. was possible that people who had faith. were not just stupid and needed crutches.

but. but saw something deeper than than. Russell did. And the more people that I. met that were like that, um, it's funny cuz I always thought, okay, my father is a rabbi, that's great, but. nobody else. And, and I think what. happened to me was it was not a logical. decision to come to faith. It was a sort. of opening of my heart. It's like this. world is way much more than my mind can.

capture. And and I kind of felt my way. to God. And in the moments. my faith, you know, there was a a a. rabbi named Rabi Nakman Bratzov. He said. he was a moon man. His faith waxed and. waned. So sometimes I have more, sometimes less. But in my feeling. moments is when I have more. So with your heart open, Yeah. What. would you say. in your feeling your moments is the most. beautiful part about Judaism and your.

faith? I think the most beautiful part. about Judaism. is that even though it is filled with. humor and wit, it takes life and it. takes the soul seriously. it really believes that this matters and. that we matter and what we do matters. And I think that that's incredibly. important and and especially in a in a. world in which young people feel so much. like they don't matter. That's an.

unbelievably powerful message. I mean, you know, it's. you don't I I want to say like almost to. every to every uh young woman under 30. on TikTok, you don't matter because you're. beautiful. That's not why you matter. I. hope you know that. You matter because. you have a soul. Um, and to every young. man who's like nihilistic and doesn't. think and just thinks that if they make. enough money their life will be fine, I.

want to say the same thing, which is. really that's not ultimately you matter. because you're in the image of God. And. and Judaism really deeply deeply. believes and preaches that. And I think. that that's a message that has so much. to say to the world. It's like you have. to take people's souls seriously. And. for all of the difficulty in figuring. out all these social questions and what. they mean, I just don't want to dismiss. people because I disagree with them.

politically or socially or culturally. cuz I think they matter. So ultimately, Judaism has a wealth. of meaning. Yes. For. human mind. I really believe that it does. I really. do. Um and and. its meaning and I want to emphasize this. is not political. The deepest meaning of. Judaism is not political.

Well, there is we put politics on top of. everything. Exactly. But that's why I want to. emphasize it. The deepest meaning is on. a soul level. It's not on a on a voting. level. Well, that combined with the humor, it's. clear to me that Christopher Hitchens. should have been a Jew. He was. He actually was. He discovered. that in his 30s. that his mother was Jewish. That's fascinating. Yep. He actually he has a beautiful. essay about it. Discovering in his 30s. that his mother was Jewish. Yep. Um so. [laughter]. so remarkably enough he actually was.

Jewish. His uh autobiography Hitch 22 is. a great read. And I just want to say. like what you discover there. I don't. know if I'm giving too much away by. telling the story of his life. Spoiler. alert. What you discover there is that. his mother ran away with a minister or a. priest and they died in what seemed like. was a suicide pact. And so I read it. unfortunately after he passed away but I. would have wanted to ask him do you. think that has anything to do maybe with. the hostility towards religion.

We are only human. My father I mean both my parents but my. father who was a rabbi was such a. wonderful warm and loving man. So, I. associate a religious figure, you know, with real goodness. And I I'm sorry to return to a darker. darker topic, but I really wanted to ask. you this. Um, for the current events for. a recent event, I mentioned Dallas. Uh, what lessons do you draw from the Dallas. Synagogue hostage incident? Well, the week after that, we had active.

shooter training in my synagogues. One. of the things I drew was that security. for um synagogues is important. And the. second is that. the reality of anti-semitism. which I had thought had waned when I. first began my rabinet. I thought it's. not going to be such a big issue. Um, it. is like an evergreen issue and Jews and. all people of goodwill have to take this. really seriously because it has.

devastating consequences and if the. world doesn't know that then it just. hasn't been paying attention. So there's anti-semitism at a scale of. human to human but there's also like you. mentioned politics get mixed up into. things nations get mixed into into. things impossible to answer but I have. to ask. Sure. Um, what do you think about the. longunning saga of Israel and Palestine? Will we ever see peace in that part of. the Middle East?

Well, since I'm an optimist about human. um, look, I I mean, I have many many. thoughts about I'm a very very strong. supporter of Israel. Uh, and uh, and I. also feel really for the plight of the. Palestinians. I think that there, you. know, this is uh this is a a clash of. legitimate narratives that is impossible. to exactly split the difference of. However,

um I know that Israel has made peace. with Egypt, has made peace with Jordan, has made peace now with other Arab. nations. Uh I don't believe that Israel. is unwilling to make peace. And so I think that as difficult as it. will be for the Palestinians to come to. grips with the fact that the Jewish. state is not leaving and is legitimately. here as opposed to we can't get rid of. it now but we will get rid of it one. day. Um if that.

comes to be and I believe that it will I. think not only that there would be peace. but I think that those two peoples. together could probably do remarkable. things in the world. Do you think the. source of it is politics? Is it. religious ideas? And to flip it, what is. the way out? Is it geopolitics? Is it uh you know interfaith.

discourse and collaboration? Or is it. simply the human. uh like love? So I think that I I'm not. sure that I could give one answer to. that, but I will give a piece of an. answer. Why did the Abraham Accords. happen? The main reason that they. happened was because economics overrode. ideology. And I actually am hopeful that that's in. the end what will happen. that people. will say, you know what, we could have. such a better life if we put aside the.

ideological animosities. and just created this different kind of. Middle East together. Um, I went to uh. Dubai. to watch the World Chess Championship. because I really wanted to see Magnus. Carlson play. I thought, you're alive. when when you have such a remarkable. world champion. Go see him play. So, I. actually took myself to Dubai. That's amazing. at for the last couple. of games and I watched I and so I wasn't.

so much I I mean it's not that I'm. uninterested in Dubai but I really I. went there for the chess thing the expo. was also on at the same time and I saw. here's this amazing place I came back. this guy I know who lived in Dubai for. several years and works in the Middle. East said to me what did you think of it. and I said you know as nice as Dubai it. was like very you know very polished. very sophisticated very clean very no. crime and so on but it was like you know. kind of like Las Vegas in the Middle. East without the gambling or something. like that. He said, you know, and. [snorts] he totally changed my. perspective in in a couple sentences. He.

said, I know it seems like that when you. come from Los Angeles, he said, but fly. there from Yemen or from Riad and it is. a miracle. And I thought, oh my god, you're right. It's like what human. beings can do if they just put aside. their ideological shackles is. remarkable. And I'm hopeful that one day. that'll happen. economics allows for. higher quality of life. You no longer. it's the playground analogy you've you. said earlier if there's more resources.

to play with for unfortunately us humans. are more willing to play with others. Yeah. And maybe that is the solution. And maybe I mean for me from a. technology perspective innovation, engineering. helps make everybody's life better. And. over over that once people's lives. become better, they start to be um have. more time to be empathetic and hear. and they have more to lose. when you.

have more to lose, it actually makes you. I think um countries are less willing to. go to war when they have more to lose. and pe and and families want peace when. they have when when it's good at home. So I think there's an element of that as. well. and some of it again taking us back to. the other aspect of our conversation is. how we're conducting ourselves in. conversation online and so on cuz I. think actually I'm a big fan of the idea. of social media that is a way for us to.

connect uh together. I think there's a. lot of really [snorts] strong ideas how. to do that well and clearly the initial. attempts that kind of just um open it up. wide some of the lesser aspects of human. nature can take over. right. uh when combined with different forces. like advertisements and virality and all. those kinds of things but overall. I love the honesty of the mess of it. being presented before us on social. media I I part of me.

maybe because I don't participate it. like if somebody is being mean to me or. being aggressive and these kinds of. things. I enjoy it because it's it's. human nature, right? But I enjoy it because I don't respond. I think if I responded, I would get. pulled into this human nature and then. it's not fun. But I I love the emo like. I'll I'll talk to people. In fact, I. still visit Clubhouse. I don't know if. you know what that is. Sure. Oh, right. That's right. Actually, when I. That's how we first met. Well, yeah. Well, I was such a fanboy. I.

actually when I first heard you and uh I. was like I can't believe I guess. [laughter] Dr. David W. But uh the. Israel Palestine. um topic was something that's was very. deeply in a heated way uh discussed on. Clubhouse. Race relations is a thing. that was really heatedly discussed and I. now go to Clubhouse to practice Russian. And there in Russian the heated. discussion is on basically any topic.

[snorts]. as meaningless or meaningful as you. want. and the heat of it just people. just screaming and and then calming down. and going through the full process. I. that that too is beautiful because that. emotion is there and if it is allowed to. have a voice I think ultimately it's it. leads to healing. Um so that that felt. really healthy. If we learn how to do. that at scale. social media I I wish that it were not. as algorithmically biased towards.

conflict. Um, I don't think that that's. healthy. But I do I I think it brings a. lot of blessings into people's lives if. they use it wisely. You know, it can. like anything else. It can be awful, but. but it can I I've connected to all sorts. of people that I never would have known. Um, and that's been wonderful. So, let me ask you the big question of. advice. Okay. What advice would you give to young. people today? Uh, that were maybe high.

school, college, thinking about career, thinking about life they can be proud. of. So the first thing that I would say. is that life is longer than you think it. is. Even though I understand the impulse. to be in a rush, uh you will have many unfoldings. more even than people of my generation. did. Unfoldings. That's such a funny word. That's a beautiful word. It feels that way. It's like different. [clears throat] aspects of your life.

will come. will will show you different. possibilities that you don't imagine at. the moment. Um and and I think the. second thing that I would say is. um. I know that this is a very old-fashioned. but I would say don't if to the extent. that you can read don't just and not. just on social media read books learn. things that will give you a broader.

context for your life than just today or. yesterday um or the day before. Uh and. and I suppose the other thing that I. would say is um. that. to the extent that you can. try to develop your own internal metric. of both what matters and what is good. because you will be exposed to more.

voices than any generation in history. telling you that that's good or this is. good or they're called influences. influencers but what they are is voices. telling you what you should think and. what you should believe and so have some. internal space where. you where you'll be able to say for. example I know this person is doing that. and it looks great but that's not me. you have a community of people that. um speak to you with a lot of passion.

and do you still have that voice in your. own in the privacy of your own mind that. uh you're able to ignore like for a. moment just be with yourself think what. is right. absolutely and I think it's partly. because I grew up without that I mean I. grew up with a lot of space in my life. and so I had chance to develop that. voice that's why I think it's harder for. kids today than it was for me I mean I. grew up when there were three channels.

there was three six and 10 there was ABC. CBS and NBC and and that was it and you. spent and your evenings, you know, playing board games or reading or. whatever. And there was a lot of space. and we played football in the street and. you went on your bike in the morning and. nobody worried about you and you came. home at night and everybody assumed you. were fine. Um, and and so I really feel. and also I went into a religious. tradition where I feel like I I have the. opportunity to judge myself by bigger. metrics. Um, and it's still hard. I.

don't want to. It's not like, oh, it's I. I, you know, I wear impenetrable armor. It's still hard. So, how much harder for. kids today when they don't have that? You mentioned books. Is there Bert and. Russell and Denial of Death by Ernest. Becker? Is there books that pop into. mind that like had an impact on you? My favorite novel is Middle March. Middle March. Middle March. I remember like I was.

listening to a podcast. I was listening. to one of your podcasts where he said. where where your guest said the two. greatest novels of the 19th century were. uh were brothers Karam Mazaf and uh what. was the other one he mentioned I don't. remember. as well or no. I think I. was both dust. I might have been I don't remember maybe. the but anyway but I would say Middle. March is up there middle March like. presents an entire world and it's. written by a woman uh Maryanne Evans who. took the pen named George Elliot um who.

you feel Virginia Wolf said it's the. only English novel written for. grown-ups. Um you feel the genius in her. sentences like the pressure of her. intellect in her sentences. It's a be. it's a wonderful wonderful book. I love. it. Pressure of her intellect. Yeah, you really do. Like [laughter]. I also love I love Saul Bellow. especially Herzog but but it's a very. different kind of uh of thinking. person's novel. I read a lot of. mysteries um and a lot of other kinds of.

fiction and literature but in terms in. terms of the books that most. you mentioned one of them which is. Victor Frankle's man's search for. meaning um and I also really really love. Hesshel's the Sabbath I think it's a. beautiful book very it's very short book. just as Frankle's book is what do you. take from the man search for meaning. what what do you take of a human being. in in the worst conditions, being able. to.

um. non-dramatically. yeah, find little joys, find find beauty. And. it's it's what I said before about. Judaism's advice to to younger people is. that it matters. If you believe that. something matters, you have enormous. [clears throat]. resilience. It's meaninglessness that is. the greatest threat to a decent life. When people are like deeply depressed, whether it is chemical depression or. what they feel like is this is all.

meaningless. Yeah. And and meaning now obviously. chemical depression calls in part for. chemical means, but. but meaning is the is the great. antidote. Um we can talk about what kind. of meaning. I mean, there are kinds of. meanings that are awful, but but meaning. is the great antidote to to a sense that. life is just nihilistic and purposeless. and and to that destructiveness that I.

think is too common. Yeah. So maybe [clears throat] maybe the. heroic action in Nazi Germany in the. Holocaust in the camps is the even not. the action but just the realization that. every life matters. So here's this. really wonderful story that Hugo Grin. who was a who was a rabbi in England. died I don't know like 15 20 years ago. he used to tell he grew up in avitz he. was a child there and he was with his.

father and it was Kaneka and you're. supposed to light the candles and his. father took the margarine ration and. used it as the oil to light the Kaneka. candles and Hugo said was scandalized. and he said that's our food and his. father said what we have learned my son. is you can live for 3 weeks without. food. You can live for 3 days without. water, but you can't live for 3 minutes. without hope. Well, hope. Let me ask you, you said.

meaning. What's the meaning of this. whole thing? What's the meaning of life? You're the perfect person to ask this. question, [laughter]. Rabbi. I believe the meaning of life is for. human beings to grow in soul. That's why. we're here. And you can do that in. infinite numbers of ways, but you're. supposed to return your soul like more. burnished and beautiful, then you got. it. I mean, it's going to have, you. know, some nicks and cuts. Um, but.

that's what it means to deepen and grow. it. And you do that, you do that, um, more than anything else. You do that by. learning how to love. I mean, that's the. principle way I think that you do it. You know, it's interesting because uh. for a human, the relationship um if. you're a man of faith is is with God, but it feels like love is so. richly part of human society that it's. not just love with of God, it's love of.

each other, right? Yep. There's no question about. the idea. I mean, in Judaism, that was. actually the great innovation of the. monotheistic idea. In pagan societies, it was all about how you treated the. gods. Monotheism said, "No, God cares how you. treat each other." So, it's in fact the. mystics used the same kind of um word in. Hebrew devut, which means clinging that. is used about Adam and Eve. Uh about it.

says, "Therefore, a man will leave his. father and mother and davak with his. wife and davva means cling." So, there. is an analogy there. Absolutely. Yeah. I kind of I kind of think of human. civilization as that um there's that. movie March of the Penguins and they're. all huddling together in the cold. This is this is fundamentally human is. is there's this. um just this darkness all around us of. of uncertainty, of cruelty, of just. we're we're we're. it's it seems like everything is so.

fragile. Uh and we're just kind of all. huddling together for warmth. Yes. And that's all we got is each. other. So, uh, we started with the the. big question of what is God, ended with. what is meaning. Uh, Rabbi Wii, I've. been a huge, as I've told you, huge, huge fan of yours for a long time. It's. such an honor that you. so happy to be here and thank you so. much for the conversation. Thanks for listening to this. conversation with David Dwey. To support.

this podcast, please check out our. sponsors in the description. And now let. me leave you with some words from David. himself. The only whole heart is a broken one. because it lets the light in. Thank you. for listening and hope to see you next. time.