Dan Reynolds: Imagine Dragons | Lex Fridman Podcast #290

when you imagine a song is it the. opening you imagine. no it's it's kind of a. just. i never think opening i never think. final i think. soundscape of how i'm feeling right now. so it could be the middle of the song. for all i know when i'm you know when. i'm when i'm doing that but. my process for me is very much lyrics. and melody and music really come at the. same time like i. by same time i mean i'm. uh as i'm expressing maybe.

you know i'm feeling like. like it's not that simple but it's like. i'll i'll hear it like it's like here's. all the orchestra and you're kind of. just pressing all the buttons at once. and melody and my voice is just one of. those. instruments. the following is a conversation with dan. reynolds the lead singer of imagine. dragons one of the most popular bands in.

the world with over 75 million records. sold and with four songs being streamed. over a billion times on spotify. given all that dan is one of the most. down to earth kind thoughtful and. fascinating human beings i've ever met. grounded in part by his lifelong. struggle with mental health. the darkness the love and the creative. brilliance are all there in this one. humble mind. for this reason and many others we. became fast friends.

plus he recently started his journey in. programming which funny enough is where. we start this. wide-ranging deeply personal and fun. conversation this is the lex friedman. podcast to support it please check out. our sponsors in the description and now. dear friends here's dan reynolds. so we were talking offline that you're. not just getting into programming what. what's uh. the most beautiful program you've ever. written something that brought you joy.

there's something. i really love completion it's the reason. that i'm. addicted to songwriting i like there. being nothing. and then having some blocks or tools. and building them into what you want it. to look like. and then i find it incredibly rewarding. to. stand back and and look at what you did. at the end. it could be anything for me it's it was. as simple to begin with that's just you. know. because it's object-oriented like.

making a cube move like that as simple. as that understanding that and knowing. that i built that and made it do that. is. really rewarding. and i think it's the thing that drew me. into. to wanting to learn more. but as far as what is some grandio like. some big piece of code that i've done. like absolutely not it's more i'm still. a level where it's more like what is a. tutorial that i followed right and and. got you know and and then you know.

yeah so i couldn't say i'm at a level. where i've done anything beautiful at. all in code but you're also interested. in potentially. like your heart is drawn to creating. games. creating anything um and completing it. yeah that's the good the feel good is. this done. yeah i've i mean i've been working over. the last two years um. with actually a team out of kiev. uh on. and and we can get into that as whole. another story but on a computer game.

and really have kept that kind of under. under wraps but. yeah we're kind of getting to a point. now where we have a prototype that we. can play and it's a lot of fun and and. uh thankfully all the team members are. in safe places now. things have obviously been on hold for a. little bit but. you know when that started is when i. really. decided okay i need to understand. base level coding in c sharp so i'm not. an idiot talking to these people and. and uh so it's you know we've been doing. that for a couple years is there any. parallels between.

the final completion that you feel with. programming which i think is a little. bit more definitive like there's. debugging the code doesn't work it's. messy and so on there's the early design. stages you're not sure. like how to have functions in classes. how it's all going to work and then it. comes together and it's really done. because it works and there's a cube. moving on the screen right right uh is. there any parallels between that and. music. because are you really ever done done. with a song it's. it's exactly the same thing for me just.

in that. it's art um i really believe that. we have not. fully encapsulated artists like when we. say art i think most people think. okay the medium must be. painting or drawing. or music. or writing. but i really believe anytime you're. creating some things. engineers instance you're creating. something with tools that you have and. it can be incredibly beautiful.

um. and. so yeah i think. and it's never done. i feel like i look at songs that i've. done and i never felt. it you have to let. go or i have to let go and that's all. i've i'm just continually making myself. let go but i look at songs that i've. done and. wish. i had done more or kept going down that. road and what would have happened and. i'm really contained to. because of what our band is and and what.

our fans expect and. there's so much more to it that it's. like. i'm fitting in a box always. um you know it's like this song. shouldn't be longer than three minutes. and 30 seconds and. i don't know if i remember the chorus. after i heard it maybe i need to hear. the chorus three times instead of those. two times it's like there's there's. certain. especially in pop music it's really hard. to. um. yeah it's you there's con it feels like.

there's confines even though people are. like well there's no confines but still. everybody's writing a pop song it's a. few minutes and are those explicit in. your mind or are they just kind of yeah. the gut is like you said chorus should. you have of course once twice or three. times is that a gut thing or is that a. rule thing you know i think it's a rule. i mean it's obviously a rule i impose on. myself nobody's. nobody's in my house saying hey dan. if you don't do this i'm gonna punish. you there's no major label president. that's like. imagine dragons needs to make pop music.

dan you know what i mean my manager. doesn't even tell me that. i i do it because. it's what i perceive to be enjoyable i i. grew up listening to a ton of pop music. and then i ended up being in what is. quote unquote a rock band which i've. never perceived it as that but. that's kind of what the world. has called it and that's fine but. um. so you're a prisoner. of a prison that you yourself. constructed there you go well i'm not.

confident are you happy i guess what i'm. trying to say is i'm a happy prisoner of. the prison that i have created for. myself and i made that prison thinking. that it was a mansion so you worked with. rick rubin what does rick think about. your. prison rick uh. rick was. rick was you know it was interesting to. hear. his outside opinion when we first met. because. my biggest focus for so much of my life.

my biggest fear. was and i this stems from i think middle. schools when it started but. everyone being in on a joke except for. yourself. i re like the thought of. thinking you're good at something. and really you're terrible at it and. you're surrounded by people who are. saying yeah you're good at it and then. by themselves they're like he's terrible. at this. just kind of. and not just in regards to music or art. but anything in life and i think maybe. from having six older brothers it stems.

from that too like always feeling. inadequate. and like the annoying younger brother. you know. um. but anyway so rick's and that's. something i've learned to let go of as. i've gotten older and. and and had life experiences but. one of the things that rick said really. early on that has stuck with me was he. said yeah you know. we were resuming the first time we met. he said i'd really like to work with you. because i feel like. you.

don't you're not confined to a sound. you've done a lot of different sounds. and so it's exciting because i feel like. your fans are forgiving. more than other rock bands or bands. because most people when they hear. you know. when they hear a band it's like there's. a very specific sound with it it's like. they do folk music oh they do like. california rock or they do. surf or they do you know. like there's. and your fans kind of want that. like they want them to do that thing and.

then they don't do it and sometimes that. goes well but a lot of times it doesn't. and people you know critics and. everybody is like go back to the thing. that you did good and do that. rick was. felt whether he was right or wrong. that we could. we could do. we hop genres so much. and that's been to our benefit and. detriment i think um. why detriment. uh because people want you to to be.

something it's more. you can believe it more i you know it's. like uh. it's more authentic if you if you never. change i guess i don't know. i mean it's certainly it's not uh. something i subscribe to because i. create music that but but i also grew up. listening to. a lot of different genres like cats i. would listen to like kat stevens. and the next song would be like biggie. and then the next song would be nirvana. and it was like i like a lot of.

and then billy joel and then enya. it was like you know what i mean i was a. product and i was a product of the 90s. which if you listen to 90s music it. really was all a lot of reason that. people say well 90s were terrible like a. lot of people say that i love the 90s. for my favorite decade of music. um was there was a lot of. genre hopping and and i don't know i i i. love that she had the. 90s had the boy bands and it had pearl. jam and nirvana.

and it had a lot of like women of the. 90s was pr is probably my biggest. influence um like. kind of that like angry. rock women of the 90s like alanis. morissette jagged little pills one of my. favorite records of all time. the the lyrics were so uh intimate and. um. i don't know if she was angry or not. sorry if she wasn't um yeah but there. was an anger to it there was angst yeah. it was like angstiness and. that in hip-hop of the 90s influences me.

and then my dad so anything my dad. listened to which my dad didn't listen. any of that my dad listened to. like harry nelson the beatles cat. stevens bob dylan paul simon. billy joel. it was very much like singer songwriter. do you mind if we throw out this listen. to a few songs because you mentioned. here in nissan and i was actually. um yesterday and the day before. listening to a lot of his stuff and it's. just like. damn he's good. and not as known.

as he should be. like um. i was getting uh do you mind if i play. no please yeah i don't know. not to. not to open this conversation with a. love song. i would like that actually alex. but without you is an incredible song oh. man that's yeah. and the heartbreak and the and the.

[Music]. he's the best to do it in my opinion in. my opinion he's the best to do it. the vocal. range. and just the sadness. [Music]. there's something uh. i i don't even want to talk over him. because this is one of my favorite songs. too but. i think people have a really good. bullshit indicator. and.

music in my opinion. whenever i meet a young artist and say. well. i'm trying to make a new band and i want. to do something like. how to be successful i really think. understanding that people have a really. good bullshit indicator. is the most important part of being an. artist. and i'll explain what what that means at. least to me. i think that. in order to. have.

success or or be a leader or or whether. it's an art or anything. people need to believe that you believe. what you're doing. um. i think the best actors. really when they're doing their thing. it's like they. it's not acting they're they're in it. and it's how they feel and they're. expressing that sorrow or joy or. whatever it is. harry for me harry nelson. he ju i just believe it he could he.

sings that and i i feel it and whether. he's the greatest bullshitter of all. time or. i don't think that's the case i think he. probably was seeing that song and he. he just could transport himself to. wherever he was. it's what makes a great live act. it's what makes a great song. and someone could be the best actor and. sing that in the same timber. same eq. same compression same everything and. there's some unknown there that i.

you know i don't i think hopefully it. will be known at some point it's some. scientific thing but there's something. there. that the energy or something that people. can perceive it and say. true or false and if it resonates is. true. it's so much more meaningful and it. lives on and if it doesn't. that for me is what is good art or bad. like for people to dispute over like. well sonic should sound like that's. silly to me it's like. it's a song or.

or even a painting like. it's just. the truthfulness of it. yeah the. the truly great art ghost. has to go to that place where you really. are feeling it like you forget that. you're being recorded if you get there's. an audience you really are feeling it. yeah which. i totally agree with you one of the. things that i love about the internet. is. it's uh brought. the bullshit detector of the masses.

um to power. which is beautiful because then the. masses uplift the really authentic right. and even if you didn't write the song i. think it helps a lot probably if you. wrote the song but you know i was i was. i was a little bit maybe a lot since. we're in vegas a little heartbroken that. to find out that elvis didn't write his. songs. uh but. i like for example rocketman belt and. john.

like to find out dale and john didn't. really know where the words of rocketman. came from. meaning like the depths of it it's. interesting but nevertheless he's super. authentic. because for el and john and for elvis. there's something in the. in the fun and the darkness and the. entertainment of it like he goes to some. place in his mind that might not be. deeply connected from where the lyrics. came from but he really likes it he. relates it to whatever is in his mind uh. and and goes to that place emotionally.

yeah and and that's what i think it is. and that's why an actor like i said can. be. completely honest to me maybe they. didn't write the script but. i i write like i've always written all. my own lyrics it's a really personal. thing to me. but i will say. i see people all the time who are. performers like elton john for instance. who. didn't write the lyrics that i believe. that they. it means just as much to them as what i. wrote because they.

find the meaning in it for themself. at least the greats do and i i think. that that's the difference maker. and i think you can perceive and i'm. sure you've seen art that doesn't move. you. and maybe it moves someone else but for. you for some reason you perceive it. to be. uninteresting to you and i feel like a. lot of the time i'm saying that it's of. course sonically maybe it's. uninteresting too but i think the. majority of the time for myself. i can find inspiration in any sonic.

value or painting as long as i see it. and i feel truth from the person that. created it. yeah but and for me. the lyrics maybe not the entirety of the. lyrics but a few words can can can do. wonders to take you to a place and. sometimes those words don't need to be. connected with the other words. that's the beauty of music they're. allowed to float in the space of mixed. metaphors yes they're allowed to just. jump around and somehow it paints a. picture without actually. um.

what is it uh glycerine by bush. right. but it's also how the person says it. right it's like. it's the it's the feeling of exactly and. the same person could say that word ten. other ways and you don't care but. someone says glycerine or whatever it is. and it's like. oh you know what that i feel that. for something. the way he said that he meant it to me. [Applause]. no i can't forget this evening. or your face as you were leaving but i.

guess that's just the way the story goes. you always smile but in your eyes your. sorrow shows yes it shows. um. let me ask you to analyze the song. do you uh. so there's a there's a lady possibly. who's leaving him. do you think he's leaving her or she's. leaving him. if you want to. [Music].

i should let you know. and then the course is i can't live if. living is without you can't live i can't. give any more. [Music]. he's got a voice on him yeah he does and. if you really there's been some. incredible documentation on his life and. the end of his life and.

so my answer to this is probably skewed. based on what i've seen about his life. too but he he was a real alcoholic at. the end of his life. and it destroyed his voice. and ended up killing him as well. um. and. so when i hear that i perceive it as. someone who is destructive and in a. destructive place in life and can't love. someone properly and so they can't live.

with them but they can't live without. them type thing which is really. something i i really identify with and i. think. is. you know one of the struggles of life is. loving yourself enough. um. forgiving yourself. for for things and and letting yourself. love someone else and you know at least. when i listen to that i hear harry being. like. and maybe i'm wrong but this is how i. perceive it at least is.

not loving himself and feeling like he's. deserving of this person like i have to. let you go i hear that of course and. people say oh well he's breaking up with. her but there's so much more complexity. and nuance to relationships than that. and i and. my wife and i went through really. difficult. separation. and. that's you know story for another day or. a different question or something but. the nuance of it. makes me think of this when i hear this. which is.

there's just more. to being with someone or not being with. someone then hey i think that person's. really attractive. or hey that person makes me laugh or not. or i love them and now i don't love them. love is such a complex nuanced thing. that it a lot of times. there's just more going on behind the. scenes i think. yeah uh. on a small tangent on that just a as a. curious question have you paid any. attention to the johnny depp and. eberhard trials. i have uh watched quite a bit of it.

because my wife really loves it and she. watches it in bed at night um so it's. raw like to me it's really because you. you've mentioned how complicated love. can be. and it's i've never seen i don't care. about the celebrity nature of it i don't. care if it was i don't care who it is. yeah but it's just laid out in such raw. form. the uh for the world to see it for the. world to see the toxicity but also the. passion and. and the. clearly sort of uh the drugs and the.

drinking but also like. the longing and the dreams and i will. always be with you i will die for you. the the the place is the the roller. coaster of love and it's all. there. at the end past the end so it's like um. i've also recently re-read the rise and. fall of the third reich about. hitler nazi germany it's the rise and. the fall and it's interesting to look at. the entirety of that process after it's. all over many many decades after it's.

all over that book in particular written. by the person that was actually there. and so here we're seeing. two people. in the context of the courtroom. analyzing this rise and fall of a love. affair. it's fascinating you know the truth is i. was telling my wife this actually just. the other day because she was asking me. what i thought about it. it makes me really sad. it's it's humorous don't get me wrong. there's a lot of parts in it that are. just really funny like.

but yeah i look at it and i also see the. internet. and you know someone's always the. villain and someone's the hero. which is such a funny thing and we we. talked about a little about this offline. before we got on this but i have a real. firm belief in life that. it's just more complex than you think. always always and we in. johnny for instance. is very charismatic and and you you love. him and he's funny and this the way he. does things and he looks certain ways. and he says things.

he he's just you really love him and i. feel like and maybe i'm wrong on this. but it looks like the internet has. really been like. johnny is the winner amber is is the. villain and i kind of look at it yeah. and i kind of look at it and i feel like. were any of you in their bedroom like. were any of you. there for these things and i'm not. saying one way or the other like. the. all i see when i look at that is. two people with a lot of deep seated. hurt anger.

and that anger is so poisonous to both. of them and they're and they're getting. through it in the way that they only. know how and. i'm not saying we should you know we. shouldn't be able to look at parts of it. and laugh about it and stuff and and be. virtuous or something but. just that there's not a hero yeah. complicated yeah i think uh unless. you're you've been living with amber and. johnny you don't know just because one. seems more charismatic in the moment or. funnier or more believable even doesn't. mean that their truth.

is the truth. and i i feel like there's still love. there too which makes oh that's the. hardest part he won't even look at her. he looks down the whole time and maybe. people say well it's because angers or. or hurt or whatever. but i s the way she looks and stuff it. feels. it just feels like there's so much hurt. there. that it hurt it hurts me to watch it i. just feel like oh my heart just like. aches for them and and for both of them. and i don't know either of them.

personally. and you know i don't know. it just hurts but it's i've never i've. never seen sort of love laid out in this. raw kind of way it makes me uh. feel better about. like it almost gives you seeing people. have gone through a struggle in this. sort of mundane kind of way. gives you room to struggle yourself. about the messiness of life so true like. you're supposed to. like relationship is supposed to be. simple and whatever but this like oh man.

this it's like a heart. yeah. and and for the record like i don't feel. like it shouldn't be shown like i think. it's actually really beautiful art and i. agree there's gonna be a lot of people. who walk away from it and are changed in. certain ways or look at things different. i'm not saying it's changing the whole. world the johnny depth but it's art it's. just like you would look at a painting. and it might affect you. um. my only commentary is more that. there's not i think it's silly when. people say who's right and who's wrong. and who's the clear villain and who's.

the like we love as human we have to. have an answer for every we have to put. everything in a box and it's like well. we're looking at this and we're deciding. you're right and you're wrong and and i. just think it's it's silly unless it's. your life so speaking of heroes and. villains and highs and lows you grew up. in las vegas. and you said that vegas is a performing. town a town of high stakes drama and. eccentricity. it's a town of high highs and low lows. and i'll be damned if my therapist. didn't point that correlation out to me.

personally a long time ago. uh. so to me. vegas. from the outside is romanticized by. certain movies the lows define. the beauty of this town. and uh certain movies. so timmy casino. uh. with robert de niro joe pesci and sharon. stone um leaving las vegas with nicholas. cage if you're unloading. in las vegas with uh.

uh. with the. chinese thompson. first of all what's your favorite. representation of vegas from a darker. side and do you draw any wisdom insight. from the. the the darkness the lows and the highs. from in those movies or is it over. romanticized. so i i grew up in a really conservative. mormon family. and vegas was. established by the mormons and the mob.

those were like the two. very different. worlds that created what vegas is and if. you live in vegas. it really shows in a lot of ways because. vegas has. the you know the strip and the parties. and the craziness but it also has. very like neighborhoods and and big. families and conservative people and and. and liberal people living together in a. really interesting way. and. for me.

growing up here. for instance was a lot of like driving. on the freeway and my mom being like. children close your eyes there's a naked. woman on that billboard and everything. okay mom on our way to church you know. what i mean it was like but also being. like whoa this is crazy this is you know. anything like. taking in whatever i could when i could. yeah yeah um. so. i saw. and i'm grateful for that like i really. love that i didn't grow up as a mormon. in for instance like utah or something. like the typical place because i i saw. both sides and i appreciated something.

from both sides and now as a person now. who's not religious but just spiritually. minded. you know i i. i i i'm grateful for that. divergent character that juxtaposition. dual edged sword that vegas is and i try. to apply that to everything in life. which is. like johnny depp in the amber it's like. there's two sides to every story there's. always two sides to every coin there's. always and there's something to be said. for both like i try to see people and.

and. even if you know it's just yeah i try to. apply that to life as far as a movie. that personifies vegas or or something. and that medium that personifies vegas. in a way that. that resonates with me don't say. hangover. no no yeah. i i also like i wasn't even allowed to. watch pg-13 movies growing up so i a lot. of the movies that you're saying like i. i didn't i either didn't see i didn't. have cable television you know i wasn't.

like a pilgrim but i had a really really. conservative upbringing so it didn't. define. your intellectual like development. no no i just uh i can't think of any. movie that comes to mind where i'm like. that's my vegas movie you know what i. mean like i'm sure i've seen some of the. movies you've said now but i don't i. can't think of one that i'm like. actually personifies vegas in a way. that feels honest to me like or or like. wasn't there a chevy chip was there a. chevy chase yeah yeah i think that's.

maybe the only one i thought of that. came to mind where i was like because i. love chevy chase so much that maybe it's. one of his uh vegas vegas vacation or. something yeah so but that's more like. light-hearted yeah surge that kind of. stuff right it's not like. i guess what i would say is there's no. truth pers that has been that i've seen. of vegas because what i see at vegas is. uh. there's obviously like the parties and. stuff in the nightlife which i'm not a. big party person so i haven't really. experienced much of that but. i've also there's also drugs and i've i.

have a strange relationship with drugs. i've lost a few friends to drug. overdoses and so i don't roman that's. not romantic to me. but there's also like uh. yeah i mean you asked for a dark. reflection of it i could i guess i. certainly see a dark reflection to vegas. and i don't i feel like vegas is. typically personified as like at the. tables never exists but it's also like. i have like friends who've lost all. their money to gambling addiction and. and so it's like. what i guess.

yeah somebody maybe needs to make maybe. that's an open spot there needs to be a. dark side to vegas. well it's about mormons in vegas that's. just dying drug overdose or getting shot. by the mob yeah. uh. so you mentioned. your spirituality. you've um you said that having a crisis. of faith or just. the the philosophical question of asking. who is god does god exist. or in thinking of the flip side of that.

of mortality what happens when we die. those kinds of things were extremely. difficult. uh deep. um. things for you. in terms of your development the whole. process of figuring that out. why does it hurt so much to lose faith. in god. yeah i would say that. the seeking of god let's say that. is an obsession for me and has been. since i was young. i i really feel that i'm a.

deep deep deeply like. committed. to. finding answers in life and there's some. answers that i don't think there's an. answer to and i'm also very ocd by. nature so i just don't give up to that. i'm like well there must be somewhere in. tibet there's some teacher or there's. there's somebody out there that has the. answer. or maybe it's yet to be found i'm gonna. find it. um i'm really my life has come been to. date. probably unhealthily committed to.

finding answers about. god or the lack thereof. and um. mortality. it's all i sing about all our records. have been about. who do you think is god have you ever. gotten a glimpse. you know i will say the closest i feel. like i have been to experiencing. god is. uh. and this sounds so. uh maybe i don't know. i don't know how it sounds but it's.

through ayahuasca for me. that's that's my honest answer for you i. feel like. i had pretty much given up all hope of. there being anything greater than. you know. us. being. you know evolving and being here and. then dying and you're gone and that's it. and nothingness and from nothingness we. came and nothingness we go. to where i am now which is there are. answers to be found i don't know them. like i don't know what god looks like or.

if god is anything to do with the word. god in the way that we say it. but i do believe. pretty fervently that there is more to. be uh found. is it motion sensor or no i don't know. what that was look like they've all died. actually. do you know which one is it is it this. one right here.

how many people does it take to what is. that on school light bulbs. it was hot too like i was doing like the. two-finger like technique yeah. i'm glad you survived that thanks.

that'd be pretty ironic if we're talking. about mortality and then this would be. it for you. i've never done ayahuasca so it's a. mixture of two plants one of them is dmt. but a lot of people i really respect. very very intelligent people. had profound experiences with uh with. ayahuasca what is that what where do you. go where does the mind go what the heck. is up with that. i'll first say that i am like i can't. even smoke weed i really do not enjoy it.

uh because i hate to let go of control. like. if i feel out of control in life it's. like one of my biggest weaknesses it's. like very scary for me i don't and and. some people you know really enjoy. letting go in that way i really don't. so i was pretty terrified to make the. jump then to ayahuasca. but. my wife who i deeply respect. um. made a profound change through ayahuasca.

and i saw it she led the way yeah and it. wasn't a strange like i think most we. have a thing. in america that's very like a. misconception a stigma on. psychedelics where. you know it's like. it's a drug. and it makes some people crazy and then. you're gonna be on the street you're. gonna be out of your mind or you're. gonna become like. you know. a crazy person basically and i think i.

really bought into that notion because. again i was raised i wasn't even raised. with cable tv you know i mean like. ayahuasca is very like. i didn't you know you can imagine what. that was like for a mormon kid i didn't. know anything about it and never touched. drugs at all and never even touched a. cigarette you know. um. anyway so i think we have this. misconception about it. where americans are quick to go to their. doctor and take. any medication. or drug. um but. you know.

whoa when it comes to like. psychedelics. anyway. that being said i so i had that. trepidation going into it but i really. love and respect my wife and i saw it. make a profound impact in her life where. she suddenly was. able to. heal from a lot of trauma that she had. she had a really she went through a lot. in her life. and it really helped her heal but it. also set her in a new path spiritually. that seemed. really.

like a place that i wanted to be. so i did it. and i did it twice the first time it. didn't really have an effect on me which. happens to a lot of people i guess um i. drank you know this little thing and. there was like this shaman who came over. from overseas that was really. had been in in the plant you know world. for. decades and was a really incredible. um i don't even know if he likes to be. called shaman but. they're supposed to be like 30 60. minutes to take effect and a few hours.

uh the the the journey lasts about four. four hours four hours. yeah so the second time i took it i took. took it in i would say 20 30 minutes in. exactly i started to. i started to feel like. i was like the dimension of what is. reality the curtain was pulled open. and. there was a lot more. to. discover. and it really blew my mind in a way that.

i think it would probably blow anybody's. mind. if for instance god descended or some. christian god or whatever it is we all. think it'd be this beautiful thing but. in reality it would probably make people. super fearful and think that they've. lost their mind. um like i've always yeah. i've always liked joked that if the. mormon god came down and told my mom. like. if god himself came down and told my mom. mormonism is incorrect she would say. satan yeah you know. we're never i think our minds are just.

not prepared for a lot of of. uh of anything that's really extreme and. it was very extreme it was like the. curtain of life was was cut open. which scared me but then i felt very. much and a lot of people that i talked. to have a similar thing where i felt. very much like i was either. communicating with. something that was perceived as. god to me or highest sense of self or. mind. or mother earth or you know it's called. so many different names but it's really.

it's very. a lot of people have a very spiritual. similar experience with ayahuasca. and just in that it's like this kind of. profoundness it wasn't like. there was nothing uh at least for me. that was. um that felt like just like my like. psychedelic funny cartoons or something. it was like i'm about to go on a journey. and it's and i'm going to communicate. i'm communicating with something that. feels incredibly wise. showed me a lot of things in my life.

kind of almost like from a bird's eye. almost like i was looking through a. video camera a younger me. there was a particular thing that it. communicated to me. um. i really have a hard time with with. accepting success and not feeling um. like feeling undeserving or something i. can't quite put it into words but. of of my position and what i've been. given i've been given so much um.

and it showed me this thing from when i. was young and explained to me why i am. where i am now and and i i to this day. like it did not feel like myself telling. myself that that's the only way i can. explain it like and there was a lot more. that it showed me and that was. incredibly healing for me. but just. to be. like. to put it into a short. thing because there's so much to this. it felt i walked away feeling very. convinced that.

there is more to be known for sure. and. a lot of my deep like things that were. traumatic for me. didn't feel traumatic anymore. specifically crisis of faith i was very. angry at my parents. and. my community for raising me in what i. perceive to be. falsehoods. and that and and that uh. i felt like the bedrock of everything i.

believed was ripped out for me in my 20s. and then it was like good luck in life. but really my parents had given me. everything that they could and they. believed that very much so still. but a naive young me was angry and felt. like. they had been duped and thus i had been. duped. but ayahuasca really showed me this road. map of like. this is truth and you're concerning. yourself about a grain of sand which is. mormonism or whatever it is.

and there may be some truths in that. tiny grain of sand and there may be. falsities. but so is all these other grains of sand. like focus on the truth stop focusing on. these little details that are. meaningless and forgive and let go of. people believing in those things to. begin with. i don't know if that makes sense but. that was like the core thing i was. taught and to let go of control. stop needing to control everything and. it felt like the wisdom was coming from. elsewhere like really i. do not believe at least in my current.

self i don't have that. the the mindfulness. that i believe. that exists in me to to reach a lot of. the conclusions that i did and there was. a lot more to it. that would be for like a late night. conversation with you but. it's so hard to put it into. you feel like a crazy person any at. least anytime i talk about ayahuasca to. someone who hasn't done it i'm like i. don't even know where to begin like. how do you explain to someone that you. felt like that. a multiple dimension. type thing happened in a way that like.

putting it into words is and none of it. was words by the way that was. communicated to me it was like. you know people talk about um telepathy. and if it if it existed it would be like. i could communicate to you in such a. deeper way i'm so confined by me having. to articulate these words and put them. in a sentence to you lex and then tell. you like if only i could just be like. yeah and emotions do that sometimes. right you could see my emotions and be. like. oh that communicates a lot so that's. what it felt like to me with ayahuasca.

as it felt like. it was communicating to me very clear. things but it wasn't like daniel it's me. yeah mother earth yeah let me let me. relax sit back let me show you but. but it very was very clear to me what. was being said and no it did not feel. like me uh but maybe science smarter. people than me who've done it would say. well it was you and blah blah blah like. i don't know but yeah they're very. convincing there's a lot of stuff in. that subconscious that. we haven't explored like we haven't. explored the depths of the ocean we.

haven't really figured out what's that. the younging shadow what's going on. underneath the surface of our conscious. mind right and what is that connecting. to is that is that just inside our mind. or is it some kind of is there some kind. of collective intelligence going on. where all humans are connected to one. kind of. uh greater. organism like what is consciousness. we have a lot of hubris in thinking we. understand. any of it like how the mind works yeah. at all like what is it. uh like where.

what is the origin of consciousness. what is the origin of intelligence. there's a lot of hubris about this we we. give each other. phds and nobel prizes and congratulate. ourselves as if we figured it all out. but humility is helpful here. nevertheless that is the question that. humans have been asking for. um. ever since. humans were humans. which is the question of mortality the. question of god.

um. so whether it's hamlet to be or not to. be. i think that's the hardest the most. important question um albert. camus asked. why live. so in terms of crisis of faith in terms. of your search for truth in terms of. some of the dark places you've gone in. your mind. what's the good answer to this question. so for camus with mythic sisyphus it was.

the question of suicide. is. what's the purpose. like. what's the good answer to why keep going. especially when you're struggling. especially when you're not. um. when you're feeling hopeless. you're feeling like a burden. in this search for truth. where you feel like you're surrounded by. lies. what's a good answer to where i live.

i think you ever found one. well it's the simple answer right now is. to say for. it's very easy once you have kids to say. the right answer is you just of course. you brought these kids into the world. so you have a responsibility that i feel. deeply as a father to them to always be. there for as long as i humanly can. and to take care of them and protect. them it's the most innate. sense in me i'm just you know it's that. it's wired in my animal. my animal.

existence so if i take that away right. because that's kind of cheating let's. put that aside because it is cheating. it's cheating there's still you're still. there's still some fundamental way in. which you're alone. yeah. and to that. um. that that actually has been a real. struggle for me from for many years i. had a real turning point early in my. career. where. we were flying. somewhere overseas. and. we're in a really small plane.

and. the lights went out and like all these. red lights were flashing and the plane. just started to dive. completely like scariest plane. experience i've ever been in my manager. was next to me who's my brother. he was crying and texting his wife a. goodbye. that's how like crazy this moment was. was it real like genuine that's genuine. like genuine engine went out plane is. going down pilots.

looking like crazy in the front and it. was a really tiny jet. and and like i said my brother next to. me crying typing a text to his wife. really really scary. and i. felt nothing i genuinely genuinely sat. there and i was like. this might actually be nice. like i i really felt like. this goes down and like. oh man life sucks it's hard and that.

sounds so ridiculous i know to say. because i again i like i'm in a. different place now and i see my life. for what it is but at that moment i did. not. so life was primarily defined by. suffering it was a burden and it was it. was well lifted i was incredibly. depressed i had been on trying different. medications since i was young and i just. had not found anything that was working. for me and then i was in a faith crisis. lost all my faith. um started a band that.

just became i wasn't ever thinking that. this band i was like when you call your. band imagine dragons you're not thinking. that's gonna be big okay it was like. i was like. this was like a side project that was. fun for me it was like art in college i. was at in school and i was like man i. hate this biology class i'm gonna write. down band names like you know what i. mean like. it was not. hey put everything aside. this is my career let's go like it just. it happened.

and. i'm an introvert by nature it's i'm. really not an extroverted person who. likes to go out and like. i like to be at home with a couple. friends and have a late night. conversation over good food like that to. me is a perfect night read a good book. listen to a podcast go on a walk. you know those are things that i really. really enjoy. and suddenly i'm in this life where i'm. like supposed to be something that i. really don't want to be. except for on stage which is a really. fast like strange thing to me which is.

on stage i feel so free and exuberant. and like. an extrovert. and then i come off and i just feel like. shrivel back into a show like it's a. it's i like music does that for me and. performing on a stage does that for me. can we take a small attention on that. yeah yeah of course what's the high. can go through that the introvert. that wants to cuddle up and read a book. you're the front man of one of the if. not the biggest rock bands. today. uh playing in front of huge crowds.

what's the high of that and how can you. land back on earth. the high of it. is it's incredibly beautiful. to. walk on a stage. sing. these songs that you wrote. and see it resonate with people around. you and sing with them. different cultures different places. celebrate life it's suddenly the world.

seems like a fantastic place it feels. like we're all on the same team. right like one big hug yeah it's like. everybody in that room gets it and they. all. like it it just. if it feels like what you want the world. to be which is just like this. co-existing unit of people and it's not. even about like. you know i i just it's incredible it's. for sure it's incredible and i love it. and i wouldn't do it unless i loved it. and then you walk off stage and you turn.

on the news and it's like you see you. know we're all against each other. everybody hates each other and it feels. that way in the world so music really. that's why live music is so important to. people that's why music is so important. to people. because even if it's just you and that. person that wrote the song you're. listening to it and the two of you feel. connected. you know it's like. you're hearing tracy chapman sing like. fast car or something you're just like. oh my gosh like yes i get it and you. feel connected that person you don't. feel alone like.

so that's the high of it for sure and. then you get off stage and then. you know. as my like my uncle's a heart surgeon. incredible heart surgeon who like writes. the book like he's like the guy that the. heart surgeons talk to he's out of. nashville tennessee he's just incredible. genius man. he um. always worries and always reached out to. me is like musicians die all the time. the reason they die. you know is because you're getting on. stage and your heart's doing this and.

your cortisone levels are doing this. you're getting off stage and then you're. just doing this. and it's a really real thing like you. get off stage and you feel like you need. drugs because you're like i. the world feels like. oh incredibly daunting and it's also i'm. sure it has to do with like some some. like health things in your heart and the. cortisone levels that are so crazy and. then you come off and it's like. i know people are like well then. nothing's enough except meth yeah right. nothing's enough except heroin yeah and. that's why a lot of artists turn to that.

stuff and and i don't say it in a preach. i don't say it in a preachy way like. i've struggled with drug abuse in my. life and. i really. i understand. why artists turn to it um. but also the fact that you're an. introvert. so the other side of it. the fame. that's something that you also said as a. double-edged sword for you the. interesting thing about fame. is that you also mentioned this is. something you can't take back. yeah so it's a thing.

you can't just like. go on vacation in hawaii and it's like. consider do i like it or not no you're. staying in hawaii for the rest of your. life and you've never been there before. whether you like it or not right so. um what's that like. being. you know loved by millions and millions. and millions of people. which is um. perhaps the best kind of fame in terms. of if you have to choose the kinds of. fames there are. and.

still being an introvert and all that. kind of stuff so. what um do you. do you feel alone more alone being. famous. is there a loneliness there's yeah i. mean it's so it's such a funny thing. because for okay if you had asked if we. were having this conversation a couple. years ago i'd be incredibly guarded. about this because. the last thing i want to ever. do is sound ungrateful. or unaware of how much i have and woe is. the famous celebrity with money oh is.

your life hard is it really telling me. about how hard it is but i'm also at a. place in life now where i just like i'm. gonna always just speak my truth because. that's the only reason i'm here is i'm. here to speak my truth to you so i'm. gonna tell you my truth whether it's. whatever it is but you're human and. feelings are real. and so and right that's the interesting. thing you win a lottery what's that. going to feel like it's not about. complaining oh it's so hard to win a. lottery because you get a lot of money. no it's still you're human you get to. experience these feelings and it's. fascinating you put humans in different.

situations right and and it's also. fascinating because a lot of people. think well i would like to be famous. that's a big thing now on social media. on instagram so the world wants to be. famous or rich or famous and it's very. interesting to think all right well once. you arrive. are all the problems solved no yeah so. uh so i will tell you according to me. what the pitfalls are whether it's fear. or not and there are certainly some. pitfalls one it's once you're there you. can't go back. whatever maybe that's fine because maybe.

you love it yeah but. the real pitfall for me is that. you're now you're lex and you're what. everybody's perception is that lex is. and that's what you are. now. lex is probably a lot more complex and. complicated and has a lot more to lex. than the lex that is the celebrity yeah. so. but anybody who meets you.

that's who you are to them. and you may. you may not feel this way but you may. feel confined to actually have to be. that person to that person. like i've early in my career for a long. time anytime i met someone i suddenly. felt like i had to be dan reynolds from. imagine dragons anytime i met someone. including my family now who are also. like whoa this is crazy you're like dan. reynolds from imagine dragons yeah and i. wanted to just be the goofball that i. have been my whole life. with my brothers and family but suddenly. i found myself feeling like no i i have.

to be this like because that's who. that's who this is. so you're almost like playing a role and. it's like i've heard a lot of actors. talk about this while they take on a. role and then it's like they feel like. they have to they like become that and. it's. a really scary thing like you you alter. who you are almost. to fit the notion of other people. because especially if. a lot of artists are empaths. it you know a lot of people get into art. in a deep way are empaths and so you. feel a lot of what people are feeling.

and you're never wanting to burden. people and you're always wanting to. deliver to that person. you know what they want it's like people. pleasing is very goes hand in hand with. a lot of like. these famous people and they get to. where they were because they know how to. do that they know how to be in a room. with someone and look them in the eye. and. make them feel like they're the only. person in the room and then now they got. that role in that movie because they sat. with the casting director and they were. like. oh you're so funny anybody like put on. the charisma do it all and it's like.

anyway i'm like i'm going on a different. tangent here but. long story short. there's a lot of things that are really. unhealthy about it and then a lot of. people who want the fame and the second. starts to go away then they're like who. am i anymore like that was everything. and now i'm like on the down and now i'm. not a famous person anymore and. now i hate myself and i'm gonna do drugs. and it's like it's like this vicious. cycle like you could never be famous. enough you're always gonna get like. there's just so much to it that i've. just and i and and again like.

i've i've lost friends in this career to. do that for sure um. and there's a certain element to sort of. just on the. the losing fame i've interacted with a. lot of. folks um. especially young folks like on youtube. so fame is a thing. that has levels. you're always trying to be a little more. famous a lot of folks who are chasing. fame it doesn't matter how famous you're. trying to chase more and we start to. lose it interesting things can happen if.

you're not self-aware which is like. like you mentioned. you might be trying to grasp back. at where you were by leaning into the. formula that got you there and so the. the the constraints of the image that. you mentioned. becomes the thing that you're now trying. to lean into like and that that's. actually walking away from who you. really are like you lean further into. being that person that's true for acting. that's true for. um even on like youtube which is people.

acting they have a role they got them to. the table somehow. yeah it's uh it's dark but i think those. are. that's just. put for everybody to see. um but that's a very human struggle even. when you're not famous you're finding. yourself of being yourself. of uh. not letting not doing the people. pleasing. at any scale yeah and being trapped by. that yeah and and also feeling like it's. never enough i think that's something. all he like.

it very not it's not just a famous thing. but it's like in the whole like. everybody deals with feeling like when. i'm here i'll be happy yeah when i get. that job i'll be happy when i have that. money. then i'll be happy when my when i get. that surgery and my nose looks like this. i will be happy then it's like an a. constant chase of happiness instead of. happiness. like it's like the opposite it's. opposite of self-love it's the opposite. of of happiness. uh it's there's no presence to it you're.

constantly you're never going to find it. you're never going to arrive and you're. just going to live your life and then. you're going to be on your deathbed and. be like i was chasing the wrong thing my. whole life you know. i should say that podcasts are. interesting in that way so for me. personally because you just talk a lot. you can't. people that meet you they know you and. they know the evolution of you and. that's the same thing for like you right. now. a dad of imagine dragons just being on a.

podcast like long form reveals a side. that liberates you more to be yourself. to like people see oh there's a human. because they you know music they have a. deep connection with you they have. experiences. with you. the way they experienced it and that's. who you are with them through the songs. but now you get to see oh that's a. that's a human being he probably gets. angry he gets sad he's excited he's. hopeful you know and there's a core.

that's a good human being but the whole. roller coaster of emotions out there. it's a giant beautiful mess and podcasts. reveal that that's why i love podcasts. like long form right you get to get to. hear some artists and actors and so on. and some of them you get to see oh. you've. lost yourself. in the um. in the surface that's a tragedy with. some actors some great actors. if they've. they've left so much of themselves in.

the roles they've played. that they can no longer. be. the thing they were before those great. roles that's for sure it's. it's hard it's hard to see so you get to. see that with johnny depp with i don't. know pirates he was talking about that. with pirates of the caribbean that was a. shift. right like he's not that guy right he's. he's forever. forever that guy. but the point is to remember that you're. not and to your family which is. interesting you said with your family um.

when i see people close to me they also. there is an element like that while. you're that. they start treating like the famous. person yeah you know i i'm fortunate to. have. my manager who's my brother. my older brother. and my lawyer is my other older brother. and. that's been helpful because. the mat like it's weird it gets weird. with everyone no matter what one of the. best advice i was given was by uh. charlie sheen you got advice from.

charlotte yeah we were playing uh the. wise sage of our generation yeah why. say h charlie sheen but he it was it was. really wise i was sitting next to him. and we were we were. playing some late night television he. said this was right at the beginning he. just said boys. just mark my words your life is about to. get really weird that's all i said but. it stuck with me forever as charlie. sheens of course it sticks with you. and i remember being like right okay. charlie you know i'm not charlie sheen. it's not gonna get weird like you know.

um. but it got really really weird really. quick because suddenly. you've existed your whole life in this. way where everybody just. everything you get. you achieved it was because you got it. and and every conversation you had like. if someone liked you at the end of that. conversation well it's because they. liked you if they didn't like you. because they didn't like you. and you could make complete peace with. that at least i could my whole life i. was like life is a challenge. and be myself and i want to go through.

it and find some people along the way. that i connect with and others know and. that social. integrity. is so important to us. and we think it would be nice to have. this and this is going back to the the. pitfalls of fame we think it would be. nice to walk into a room and have. everyone be like. yeah and you could be like. dumpster fire and everybody's like oh my. gosh dumpster fire is amazing. you said dumpster fire was amazing.

it's like. it's incredibly. incredibly lonely and it just breaks. everything that you knew about humanness. yeah and it sucks so then you're seeking. out. people who. that it doesn't exist with and family is. the closest you can get to that for sure. but even your family it's going to take. a little bit where they're like oh this. is a little weird like all my friends at. work are now asking about you and you're. my young stupid brother but now you're. suddenly like the young stupid brother. they want an autograph from and stuff. and it still makes like they have to get. over that and figure that out and.

and um. and then you meet people too who know. about this whole concept and they're. like well i'm gonna be an asshole to him. to show him that i don't. subscribe yes. and you're dealing with like people who. are like. dumpster fire the person who's like you. know you could say something actually. profound and nice and they'd be like. that's stupid and you're an idiot yeah. because it's like an actual attempt to. like show you how much they don't care. so you live in this very like. this still nevertheless even when nobody.

knew you you were seeking for deep. human connection with a small number of. people. and now when a lot of people know you. you're still looking for deep connection. with a small number of people the. struggle is the same yeah. uh can you can you speak to because you. mentioned some of the dark moments uh. what advice would you give to people who. are struggling with depression. and maybe for the people who love. the people who are struggling with. depression.

so what i have found to be most. successful for me. um. [Music]. it's it's back to the basics of. everything that the. therapist or psychologist will tell you. psychiatrists will tell you right when. you meet them which is. exercise. every day. eat. healthy for sure. find time make time every day to do. something that you love. whatever that may be whatever brings you. joy.

and you might and when you're really. depressed that actually feels like. nothing because the things that brought. you joy. don't bring you joy anymore when i'm. really in the thick of it but um. for me all like this is the cycle that i. i'll go through is i'll i'll look at my. life and i'll say okay what what what. can i clean up all right well. for me it was cutting out alcohol. actually helped me a lot. i know that sounds like big i'm not like. not judging anybody for that and i still. you know drink on occasion but i felt.

like alcohol has been very unhelpful to. my mental state. i feel less drive and less happiness the. next day for things that i want to do i. feel like it plays a lot with your. serotonin so look for stuff to change. clean living yeah clean living but also. understanding that that sometimes it's. just. it just is and you just keep breathing. and and it will get better with time. this too shall pass this past like i i. really think that uh in the winter you.

know i i'm pretty sure i mean i've had a. lot of i've seen a lot of therapists and. all of them say the same thing which is. like you have major depressive disorder. and this is what it is but. it's certainly worse for me in the. winter months so i know there's like. um i can't think of the term for it but. there's a term for like seasonal. depression there it is. um. so i'll get to the winter and suddenly. i'm like geez everything really. sucks on a deeper level. and then you know so it's like this too. shall pass is another thing it's like. just. practice those things.

absolutely see a therapist that's my big. like my biggest emphasis of life is to. like on stage like my goal like i have a. few things that i really really care. about one is. is is mental health health and. destigmatizing therapy because for me i. didn't go to therapy for a long time. because i felt that it would be. admitting that i was broken. it'd be admitting that i was weaker than. lex who doesn't have to go to a. therapist because lex is stronger so be. strong like lex. you know i would like look at all my. older brothers and i looked up to them.

so much and they're all these incredibly. successful people plastic surgeon an. anesthesiologist a dentist two attorneys. stanford nyu like just like incredible. high standards. eagle scouts you know like. they valedictorians like they just did. it all. so for me. i was very. really did not want to admit and none of. them went to therapy. so it was like what are you gonna be the. are you oh you're broken are you like. the weak one who can't hack life.

and i think that's incredibly dangerous. um and i feel like it almost cost me my. life because i took so long. to finally go to therapy so i really. want kids to know. hey like the great people that achieve. great things that are doing amazing. things they probably have help almost. all of them it's like going to the gym. but it's a mental gym what um so i. unfortunately i wanted to be a. psychiatrist when i was growing up. uh. maybe maybe that's why i like podcasts. maybe that's i think you'd be a good one.

maybe. i would i would i think you are a. psychiatrist pretty much right. sounds like you're a psychiatrist i. think i need more i think. i i think actually to be a good. psychiatrist you also need to be seeking. therapy from the like you also need to. be. have some stuff to work through in your. mind right. i think uh yeah you have to have gone to. some dark places. um empathize the the empathy it's this. ability to empathize and especially if. you've directly.

experienced it you can. you can go to those places in your mind. like you said it's with the music to be. authentic you have to really go there. what um why. did therapy help so much what is the. process of therapy if you can just. educate a little more is it. are you basically bringing to the. surface and talking through things. that you. because of the. the momentum of life you just never. allow yourself.

to speak through to think through is. that what therapy is or is this a more. systematic thing. so i've been to a lot of strange. different kinds of therapies so i'll. tell you my first therapist if i could. sort of corrupt uh how hard is it to. find. a therapist that connected with you. it is. it's actually pretty hard i think i. think i think uh it for. well actually i have a skewed view of. that because. going back to the beginning of my. therapy was with a mormon.

therapist so it was very much like. well are you reading your book of mormon. and are you praying at night you know. what i mean like that was a big focus of. my therapy to begin with and you're. having yeah a faith crisis in the. distance yes. i was like well. and then you're making it worse yes the. next therapist i went to. was. uh. a scientology therapist i met my wife. and she was a scientologist at the time. and she's not anymore. she's like.

it's such a funny thing to like to look. back on because we met and i was like. this mormon missionary who just got home. from his mission and i met her and i was. she's a scientologist i was like wow. that's bad shit crazy like. and like that stuff's crazy and she's. like what are you talking about that's. your crazy. mormon that's bad shit crazy and the two. of us were like. huh. maybe there's something to this to both. of us here yeah the tension actually. forces you to think through like oh well. what is true yes yeah and we really fell. in love through.

that which was like maybe that we're. both on the wrong track let's figure. this out but before that happened we. went to uh. a. scientologist therapist. who that therapy consisted of what have. you done wrong. to asia and they asked they would ask me. that question over and over and over and. over until i'm like thinking of the. deepest darkest things that were in the. recesses of my mind this was a therap. this was marriage therapy. anyway i'm not gonna get into that but.

it was. it was scientology therapy so that was a. different thing and then. i went to. therapy therapy like no not attached to. any religion. and that was a really great experience. for me and and since then i've been. through a couple different therapists. but that was more because where i was. and moving and things like that. so is it that hard to find a great. therapist probably not but maybe don't. go to your mormon therapist personal. psychology therapist. or maybe that's maybe that's the route. for you maybe it's around for you i. don't know yeah but what is so is it.

bringing stuff to the surface basically. oh yeah so i didn't even answer your. question what's the effect why is it so. effective just um. is there something you could put words. to. yeah i mean i think it's obviously. there's the common things you would. think of which is like oh i've been. holding these things in and i don't want. to tell anybody and then i tell this. person and there's relief in that but. that's really not where the real work. comes from i think the real work is. meeting with someone who is well-versed. and educated and understands. it's like it's like coding it really is.

it's like someone who like they listen. to you and they're like well that was a. trigger and then this became this. trigger and you're probably every time. you're hearing that thinking of this. thing that happened earlier in your life. and they just will walk you through. scenarios and maybe some of them aren't. right but some of them you'll be like. it'll resonate sometimes you're like wow. i am feeling that because of that and. that did happen and maybe if i call my. mom and say this to her it will make me. feel better hey mom this happened it's. like work you you put in work and you. have hard conversations and do difficult. things and if so if your therapy is not.

difficult. i actually think that's that's not good. therapy good therapy is it's going to be. a little difficult it's work. like um during and after yes like i had. this incredible therapist who was who. i told him when i was going to do. ayahuasca he was like jesus you know he. had actually was a doctor before and a. really well-educated studied person who. had uh walked away from uh brain doctor. what's the word for that brain doctor a. brain surgeon neurologist oh yeah. neurologist yeah and he uh.

and he said well basically his belief. was that uh ayahuasca was like. basically doing therapy like 50 sessions. he was like it's it's like really. intensive he's like. you i don't know if you want to do that. if you do you can you can make you know. some big steps forward but i prefer just. to do one once one session at a time. and um. so yeah it's hard work and and that i. typically like it's really hard for me. to talk about ayahuasca by the way going. back to that because i'm not looking to. tell everybody to go to ayahuasca it's.

incredibly hard it was the scariest. experience of my entire life it felt. like i went to heaven but it also felt. like i went to the darkest deepest hell. that was. incredibly scary. um. incredibly scary yeah. she told the story of uh how you wrote. the the song believer or like um. your your childhood friend i guess. donald like like bullying and that kind. of stuff.

for this song. i mean a lot of your songs are super. interesting sort of. um in terms of percussion super. interesting super interesting lyrically. just how it flows and also. pain is at the center of it i mean a lot. of. like you said the crisis of faith some. of these existential questions are. basically behind a lot of your songs. funny enough um maybe they're covered in. metaphor so it's hard to see uh but it's.

there and this song is really. it's really interesting in that way that. it puts. uh you know. pain you made me a believer. you break me down you build me up. believer. that's so interesting. um maybe can you tell this the story of. how the song came to be i'd love to. listen to it too i have some questions. musically about it too yeah. yeah i mean um. it's exactly what we're talking about.

with therapy i just feel like. the greatest things in my life. have. come from. the deepest. hurt. like losing someone. you know that you love. is maybe the hardest part of the human. path for me at least thus far like i i. when i think of okay what was the. hardest thing there's like okay you know. there's like you think of physical pain. or maybe like going through financial. pain or whatever i think losing someone. that you really love to death.

is what is one of the hardest. for me i would say it was the hardest. and. um. but it also makes you look at your life. completely differently. and alter your life at least for me in. ways that were really healthy. um being more present. letting go of things that were. meaningless trying to control what other. people think about you like wasting your. time on things like that and you. suddenly see like wow like time. i got small amount of time like how do i.

want to spend it i'm going to spend it. in the best way i know how and that's it. so. yeah i mean that's it's a basic comment. concept that's been said a million times. over in a million different ways but. that's pretty much what i was trying to. say with believer which is like. i've lost face and faith in everything. uh at that time period and. you know or previous to that time period. and then i was rebuilding my faith or. my my spiritual. thought process and it was after. ayahuasca and it was like.

you know finding being a believer and. that. and that's not necessarily like a. believer in god or a believer in. heaven and hell or anything like that. but a believer in. more. believing in in goodness believing in. that there is some light like and again. those words like. they're just words and i wish there were. better words to formulate the thought. that i'm trying to express but. just more uh like the thought of.

me dying. for me i don't fear it. i don't fear it. but. actually i i really fear not seeing my. kids again i'll say that that is fearful. for me i feel like i love so deeply. these children that the thought of like. leaving them. for me is this is a. a scary thought or something they're. they're kind of. good reminder how much you love life. actually yeah.

and you don't always. remember that. yeah and uh i think having kids is not. for everyone for absolutely for sure but. for me and especially you shouldn't be. having kids to give yourself a reason to. live. i mean like i feel like dying i'm gonna. have a kid like. you might feel more like dying after. having a kid actually. you know it's pretty stressful uh but it. is a place to like i've changed a lot of. people that i've known that it gave them. a new intensity. of gratitude for life for sure.

god do you mind if we i'll return to the. the pain of the believer you might if we. listen to it a little bit. did you write the music first or the. words first. the same time which is very typical for. me. but uh just the way it opens like how. you know intensity of openings you ever. think about like what the first few. seconds sound like is that something.

that um like when you imagine a song. is it the opening you imagine. no it's it's kind of a it's just a. i never think opening i never think. final i think. soundscape of how i'm feeling right now. so it could be the middle of the song. for all i know when i'm you know when. i'm when i'm doing that but. my process for me is very much lyrics. and melody and music. really come at the same time like i. by same time i mean i'm.

i'm uh as i'm expressing maybe. you know i'm feeling like. like it's not that simple but it's like. i'll i'll hear it like it's like here's. all the orchestra and you're kind of. just pressing all the buttons at once. and melody and my voice is just one of. those. instruments you know i mean it's just. utilizing one instrument so you're. seeing the landscape and that landscape. includes melody includes percussion. lyrics yeah a little bit or literally.

it will be words to begin like a word. here and there and i'll be like. you know i'm like what's a word that i'm. thinking of when i'm feeling this. soundscape and uh i always create. with no theme in mind i'm never. for for better or for worse just my. process is i'm sitting down. and i'm writing a journal entry simple. as that it's like when you sit down to. write a journal entry are you sitting.

down and you're like okay i've had all. these words here that i'm going to put. on the page and i'm going to order it in. this way and my theme for my journal. entry today is going to be this maybe. some people do but i don't my journal. entry is. i don't know what i'm going to say oh. how was today well man today was this. and i'm feeling this and now that i. think about that i'm really angry about. that that hurt my feelings when this. you're like you're formulating it as you. go and that's the joy of it and for me. that's what music is. so i'll sit down. not thinking hey i've been wanting to. write a song that has a hard beat or.

i've been wanting to write a song that's. anthemic or i've been wanting to write a. song that's it's like how am i feeling. right now and it's joyful is it feeling. joyful to you or is it struggle. because you just made it sound like it's. i think uh joyful. um. or at least. yeah fulfilling is the word i was kind. of looking for but there was there's a. lot of artists talk about really strong. like you talk about writers cathartic. that's the word. it feels like. having a good moment with a therapist.

where you're like. okay. i'm expressing this thing that i just. need to express for whatever reason i. need to express this the majority of the. songs i write for the record are never. heard i write over 100 songs a year i. release. 20 songs. every three years. so. i don't know what's that percent 20 out. of 300 come on lex. less than ten percent less than. jefferson. or something yeah um. anyway so it's and then like getting.

together with a band and like getting. them selected down is really what uh the. process have so you're really writing. a song per one to three days kind of. maybe a song that you can't quite figure. out the puzzle of that's going to last a. little a little longer. is it worth it for every idea yeah. you finish every idea i do i finish. every idea so it's not just like laying. completely unfinished i could open my. computer for you right now and i would.

show you. hundreds and hundreds of songs that you. would listen to and think. that sounds like a song it's like. there's rhythm there's melody there's. multiple instruments there's lyrics like. i it's the same thing as is for coding. for me which is music which is yeah i. can't walk away until i've completed it. but it's finished my well finished is. finished yeah but it sounds like a song. i certainly do a lot more with it after. with the band where we should pull it. all apart but it's a song it'll be like. you know it's you'll listen to it and.

say okay that was a song i get. you understand what what it is for sure. do you think. this is a painful question from a fan. perspective do you think there's. genius. on your computer that you walked away. from that you just didn't notice it. like do you think there's truly great. songs that you've written. that you just. didn't notice how great they are i i. think. greatness is something that i feel i'm.

i'm. i don't feel like i've achieved. greatness genuine i'm not saying that to. you in a way of like humility michael. jordan. no genuinely i feel like i. am on a journey right now. to find who i am and i'm 34 and it's. like. i don't even i i haven't begun that. journey i feel like i'm just starting. that. but that being said. i certainly. don't know. the right answer to what songs are you.

know beloved or good to the masses like. imagine dragons is such a massive entity. it's like. there have been a i will say this there. are a couple times where i fought really. hard to decide on the single really hard. or i always fight for what goes on the. record always i always put the record. together and that's the record that i. wanted to be and me and the guys come up. with that and it's nobody else has. influence no manager no label. the single. everybody wants to have a saying your. label wants to have a say in it your.

manager wants to have a say in it. and i have fought really hard over that. and i've been wrong before and i've been. right before. um. but as far as songs that i haven't put. out. i mean. you can imagine so many songs you think. you think of so many beatles songs. that are like some of their grace while. my guitar gently weeps right. let me i'm trying to imagine. weird sounding not that interesting. possibly songs the majority of what we. honestly. they may it may be.

our best stuff is that we don't put out. for instance because our band is such a. it's such a complex question i really. don't know actually i don't know maybe. one day i'll die and people will look. and be like i hated imagine dragons but. now i listen to that song i really like. that i wish they would put that out or. maybe they'll be like oh it all sounds. like shit i don't really know. um well that's that's sorry it is a. tragic thing that's why i asked it which. is like. it could be some. [Music]. great incredible things that.

that will take you a long time to. rediscover to realize how great they are. and it's it's also the tragic aspect of. being an artist is you don't know. if you get fame or all that kind of. stuff you don't know what's going to. really move people because ultimately. what you want. is to. to connect with people and you don't. know what that's going to be. it's hard i mean to me it's. to me it's tragic just as a fan of yours. to see maybe i wonder if there's like.

incredible stuff there just as it is. tragic to see great artists throughout. history who didn't get recognition until. they died. it's like. because they basically held on you know. uh franz kafka was extremely. self-critical. a lot of these folks had an idea of. what's good and not and they were wrong. right. they were gene they had genius. they weren't entirely wrong because they. became sufficiently popular but it's. interesting i try to genuinely to. release the songs that move me the most.

i'll say that you're an audience you're. your own audience yeah i try to put out. the songs that make me feel. the most like i fee i feel. that that's my only gauge because it's. so subjective of like what is good. what's this. nobody knows the song the masses are. gonna like nobody knows that formula. nobody knows it so for me it's always. what makes me feel something one of the. main lessons rick rubin taught me when. we worked with him on this record was he. would say. he would his his. main point that he would continually.

bring up when like. because he he's not the type of person. be like that's a bad song or that's good. it's just not who rick rubin is it's. more like there's more nuance to it he. would say. i don't really believe you on that song. that's what he would say he would say. and i knew that was like. that song's a no-go you say and i and i. would genuine there was a time he said. it and it was about a song that i really. like i really. felt it and meant it when i said it. but.

he didn't believe it when he heard it. and that was enough i was like man well. the end of the day like i can believe it. all i want but if the listener. doesn't feel the honesty in it just like. we were talking about earlier i think. the most important ingredient is. is this truth perceived as truth. to someone else and if it's not the. bullshit indicator goes and you're like. i don't care i don't throw it away i. don't care about it well he you said. that he made you go through. like line by line the lyrics every. example that was excruciating for me. why was that excruciating well first of.

all it's rick rubin so you're in the. room with like rick rubin who's done a. lot of the greatest. of all time. and um. so i had to first just put that aside. and be like okay well you've done a lot. of my favorite records but. still you're you're human and not. everything you say is gonna be right you. know i and i'm a strongly opinionated. person and so is rick and so when the. two of us were kind of together it was. you know. um but the lyrics which is interesting.

so it's not every entire composition but. just like let's look at the lyrics yeah. i mean here. yeah oh yeah because he would look over. every there was like um. [Music]. and there was there were battles he won. battles that that that he didn't win and. maybe he was right i don't know i mean. there was for instance i'll give you an. example there's a song on the record. called number one okay. rick will probably laugh when he hears. this. um. because this was a big one that we kept. going back and forth on but this will. give you a good insight of what it's. what it was like what it was like and.

there's a line in it that says um. i don't know the course is i don't know. what i'm meant to be i don't need no one. to believe when it's all been said and. done i'm still my number one and he was. like ah just makes me cringe when i hear. that. he's like i just. like do you have to be like can it not. be like you're still my number one i was. like no it's not about anybody else like. you know it's about like self-love he's. like yeah but like do you need to like. talk about self-love like that and i was. like well i can't i feel like i need to.

it's like oh but you know there's. something else we could say there like. we just kept. you know we kept coming back to this. song okay i was like i and i changed it. i tried changing it like what did i. change it to it was like it wasn't. you're still my number one because it. just made no sense it wasn't about some. love thing or like someone else. i changed it to something else and it. just it was the one thing that i was. like i'm really sorry rick like. i get it. and if it sounds cringy to you it's. definitely sounding cringy to other. people too and that sucks but.

i don't know how else to say this in a. way that i want to put that song out. anymore. but there were other songs for sure. where rick was like that or this that. word. feels a little trite you already said. that once can you say it in a different. way it was really helpful and that yeah. it's really interesting because uh. you're trying to say something so simply. and yet not make it cringe that's really. hard that's that's like a that's a. strange art form because you want to say. some of the greatest love songs we i.

mean we looked at the the without you. song i mean that's the whole thing is. cringy if you just read it on paper like. i said. like like it's a court report or. something but. yet it's not especially when sung maybe. but no there's something about. yeah. maybe. sung in a way you believe it when you. believe it but also written in a way. that's. singable in the way you believe it so. it's like. right and then it rolls off it just.

comes out in a way that just feels like. silky no word catches your mind is. cringy yes. just. but then music. um i think great speeches are like that. too or just. you know conveying communicating ideas. simply. that's the that's the art form is to not. be cringy so interesting and then yet. because like when you're raw and real. it might at first feel cringey.

so the the battle there and that that's. where. you see people fail like just regular. artists like um i don't know open at. open mic i go to open mic so i just. listen to musicians like when they write. songs like they they fail that test. they write simple stuff but it's cringy. why i wonder what was that like what is. that i i'm telling you like i tried to. explain this to my brother the other day. because it's the same thing with a live. performance.

if i'm not in my right head space and i. walk on stage and i walk up and let's. say i say something and i do this. yeah hey cause i'm like this is the move. right i'm like this is the move. the crowd doesn't care yeah in fact the. crowd's like that's cringy when you did. yes. but if i wasn't thinking about doing. this and i went up there and i said. something and i really meant it and my. body was like. i can't explain this to you yeah it's so. silly to say out loud. but it's.

people will resonate to it when it's. real and when it's acted it doesn't you. could do it the exact it could the. motion could look the same your eyes. look the same but there's something. about the energy. that people know they know if it's real. or not yeah people are like you said. incredible bullshit detectives 100. percent i'll go on a stage and if i'm. not in the right headspace to be real it. won't be a good show if i'm real then. it's a good show as simple as that let's. go through the song. like i said great opener.

so you had this in your mind this. landscape yeah yeah. [Music]. the beat was first on this. what about the first and the second and. third like first things first seconds. the first line i wrote was first things. first second i don't know why it just. was like and then i was like oh that. principle of you know. great line don't. second things second don't you tell me.

what you think that i could be. i'm the one at the sale i'm the master. of my seat i'm the master of my seat dad. had that in his office he had this um. saying. uh that was something about the sailor. and being the master of a sea that i. always loved. there you go simple statement yeah zero. cringing it. it's so powerful. that's so simple. i'm the master of my this whole song is. just. trivial. but.

uh in terms of. lyrically but extremely powerful and. original unique sounding something about. the words just even you don't have to. actually sing them you just read them. and then and then raw i was broken from. a young age tucked myself into the. masses writing my poems for the few that. looked at me too. took to me shaking me feeling me singing. from the heartache from the pain taking. my message from the thing i can't why am. i reciting your words to you but the the. the the percussionist throughout it the.

uh and and that that was there. percussion is almost in the lyrics yeah. and i'm a very percussive singer because. uh i was a drummer first before i. i think. same with dave grohl. probably a similar thing which is i. think in percussive. uh sense a lot when i'm writing because. i and i also was. before i could. play an instrument i would beatbox and i. think michael jackson did this too. actually i've heard in the studio that. he was very similar but a lot of what i. do is.

percussive. um because my brain thinks in it. percussively first. a little more because it's almost like a. drama. and then you lay words on that. [Music].

it's all building to the chorus. [Applause]. [Music]. what about the word pain. when did that come to you. um. pain you made me you made me a believer. yeah i just the idea of um. i just wanted to i. i really one of the things that a lot of. the songs that i like.

i like divisiveness. for instance not always but there's. times where i want someone to hear a. song and i want them to either love it. or hate it i really don't want them to. be in the middle ground a lot of the. songs that. like a lot of my favorite songs. are divisive songs. um and. so for instance with pain i wanna i want. you to hear that and almost like. it's like whoa you know what i mean it's. it's uh it's something either somebody's. gonna hear and they'll be like man i. just don't want to hear that like that.

or it's like oh i felt that so deeply. when he said that in that way because it. sounded like this and. and when you think of the word pain it's. like that's that's a. that's a. when i at least for me when i hear that. word i it carries a lot of weight. carries a lot of weight so i wanted to. sing it with a lot of weight. and to come into that chorus with like. like it's a striking. moment. um and i'm also a tenor singing as sorry. i'm a baritone singing as a tenor.

so that's where that natural. like gruffness comes from as i'm singing. out of my range really up in my head. voice and it carries a lot of weight. with it because of the baritone. i can ask you a specific sort of the the. pause before the pain. it's really interesting because like a. double. [Applause]. what is that is that how much work does. that take to get that right that's. that's incredible because it's like a.

so so you're you're kind of seeing the. beauty through the. and then that whatever that sound is the. right the bass being rolled off yeah. yeah yeah i i actually when i first uh. was approaching the chorus it was. actually see. took him and finally missing the heart. egg from the pain taking my message from. the vein speaking my lesson from the man. seeing the beauty through the uh seeing. the beauty through the pain you made me. uh you like it came in on one i'm not. seeing it right right now but it it did. not wait yeah and. it felt.

like it didn't hit in the way that it. was supposed to hit because. the the uh you predict that right you're. like you're waiting to see the beauty. through the pain you made me uh right it. was yeah the beauty through the pain you. made me made me. so i wanted to feel a little more like. striking like again it's like that thing. that makes you kind of do this a little. bit you're like huh but once you hear it. a few times you're like ah ah and you. predict you know what i mean it's like. i'd rather someone hear our song the. first time be confused by it.

so they play it the second time and then. they're like oh okay you know what i. mean like i really don't want. you know. i'd rather turn some people off along. the way and then the people who come. along for you are gonna feel more. committed i think. it's just an interesting like. it feels gutsy to insert silence. you know yeah that's what makes it you. know it's like the greatest speakers of. all time are like and i told you. right.

you would know. you're like oh yeah what is that yeah. that's so interesting to do that just at. the right time. and then pain. right uh man this is it's a it's a. brilliant song did you know it was a. good song when you when you wrote it. out of the thousands of songs you've. written you know i it's always the same. thing for me which is like oh listen if. i want to listen to the song. and i want to listen to it a lot of. times than than those are the songs we.

put out and i and i only want to listen. to the songs that make me feel something. whether or not it's like our single that. did the very worst of all our singles. was the song that i wanted to listen to. the least but it made the most sense as. a single which was all the wrong reason. to choose it right it was this it was a. i bet my life is the single off our. second album. and that song was originally written it. was just a guitar and a vocal and it was. very just quiet and laid back. and we were like well let's try to dial. it up let's try to produce it and we.

overproduced that song we self-produced. it as a band and we over produced. and. that song i mean it's it did good you. know in terms of a song but for us it. did not do good um compared to our other. songs and i've really looked back at. that and learned a lesson from that it's. like i don't want to listen to the song. that's a sign already if you don't want. to listen to your own song. it's probably not a good song yeah um. you you said your dad. um. elsewhere and today just.

said that your dad early on was. a kind of uh. the early rick rubin. so when you were starting out he was um. he gave you feedback he listened. um what did you learn about music about. life from your dad. my dad is a really quiet. farm grew up on a farm. very humble. um. i think he starts every sentence by. saying.

this is just my two cents pretty much. you know i mean it's like like take it. or leave it like you know what i mean. he's that that kind of a sense like. there's humility in everything and it's. real for him it's not like. false humility he really i really feel. like when he's saying things he really. is like maybe this isn't any worth to. you son and he means it but here it is. and it's always gold and i'm like wow. dad that's incredible you know. so what in those early days if you like. so you were like 12 or something like. that like starting to write 12. i wasn't. showing my music to anyone i started.

writing right when i was 12 and i. probably wrote for at least let's say. six months or something and i'd written. probably i don't know like. a lot of songs during that what was the. topic by the way love it was all sad no. the first song i ever wrote went. [Music]. all by himself. no other one around.

and he stood all alone. when would he be found. did he want company. or was he fine on his own. everyone needs a friend. so why was he all. you know days like but i was like a 12. year old with. i just felt. like depressed for the first time and i. was. and i just was like he discovered the.

blues as the 12th yeah right right it. really was like my sense of the blues at. that time for sure like bad version of. the blues but it was like 12 year old. kid with a bunch of acne and like i just. like i hated going to school i felt like. that i i just had not found myself. that's like a great song by the way but. anyway i wanted to keep looking i forgot. i was. i don't know about that but. um yeah what was your dad at which point. did you begin to share it with your dad. a lot of the songs i wrote in the. beginning were very much like bobby.

mcferrin like that because we are our. mic was in a part of the house where i. couldn't bring over the piano and the. only instrument i played at the time was. the piano. so i would do everything with my voice. but then i started teaching myself the. guitar. in those in the beginning like six month. period just watching my brothers play in. their garage bands in the in the. basement and then i started to write. songs a little more like enya vibes like. stack my voice like 20 30 times and like. enya meets like jared which is who my. dad would listen to a lot john john. michael jarvis incredible synth genius.

but anyway so. i finally got my my like. gall up enough to show it to my dad one. day after work and i got very little of. my dad because there were nine kids and. he worked from 8 a.m till 6 p.m we'll. come home very tired and here's nine. kids that are like dad you know and. you're the young one you're not you're. just gonna miss i was in the middle kind. of too so it's even you know middle. child thing. but i sat him down i was like hey dad i. just want to like can i show you a song. and he was like oh you know he didn't. know i was writing anything and i showed.

it to him and he listened. and he took it off and he really looked. at me and was like. that was really good he was like i real. i thought and this when you said this it. made me feel this he was like and that. did it i probably would have given up. music like i look back that was a very. pivotal moment for me i was like in a. place where i was like is this good bad. i don't know maybe it's so embarrassing. and terrible and i was already writing. lyrics that were a little like overly. metaphorical to hide that i was dealing. with faith crisis because i thought okay. i'm gonna show this to dad i don't want.

my dad to know i'm like questioning the. truthfulness of joseph smith. so i'm not gonna be like. it's joseph smith a real prophet is. mormonism true i don't really know like. you know i was like writing way overly. metaphorical but because my dad really. validated it and he was a no bullshit. person so i knew when my dad said that i. was like you know what at least my dad. really actually thinks this is cool. and i really trusted my dad's taste and. and. thought everything he listened to was. cool so i was like wow. i keep doing this and i just showed it. to my dad for years and years and still.

to this day i send every song to my dad. so he underneath it with the feedback is. always like oh i like this idea like. this it's just a positive like a not. always positive no but like underneath. it do you sense the positivity because i. think always. never never mean. never malicious. uh you know there's like there's two. types of criticism there's like. criticism that's just like you're. looking to be hurtful to someone and. then there's criticism that's like. really important for art. it's the type of criticism that's like.

you see the value and what's happening. and if it's honest then you can you. maybe communicate with that person like. i s i see what you're trying to do with. that you know it's not even like you. have to say that or whatever like butter. it up but it's like. my dad would just give me the this. honest criticism that would be like. you know. it certainly wasn't always good but i. knew it was always well-intentioned i. guess that's that's how i would say so. you mentioned made me re-listen to it. i'm a big fan of cass stevens you made. me re-listen to father and son.

i'd probably all sons have issues. to work through with their fathers. this is and you said that you connect. with this song in particular i think uh. so you're a father now. uh what is it about the song that. connects with you for people let me let. me play it let me play a little bit. people should educate themselves on cat. stevens oh my gosh right in the piece. the best the best pizza right on the v. street. you think this is a hopeful a sad song. i hear it was hopeful i heard is a.

loving father saying just what his son. needs to hear it's not time to make a. change. just relax take it easy. [Music]. your fault. there's so much you have it's like that. calm wisdom. yeah this time it wise if you want you. can marry look at me. i am old but i'm happy and just the way.

says i like that should be a corny line. but it's not corny at all it's like. you are now. look at me i'm older but i'm happy. to become. when you found. something going on yeah i mean the the. simplicity there and it yeah but it's. such a contrast with um. what's his name um. harry chapman with the cats in the. cradle. uh which is like.

the sadness of. so this feels like there's a. a wise calm. connection between father and son right. with uh with casting the cradle i don't. know if you remember that song um. he learned to walk while i was away and. he was talking. before i knew it and as he grew he'd say. i'm going to be like you dad you know. i'm going to be like you and the idea of. that song is. that he does become like his dad.

which is funny not something you said. but in a different way you become too. busy to make that connection his dad was. too busy making connection with his son. in a in a not a dramatic way in a very. kind of calm not strong way like you. don't right you just don't have time. uh you're you're busy at work you're it. for the family and so on there's. connection but you don't really get to. form that like depth of connection. and. then the father when uh when the son. shows up from college and all that kind.

of stuff he doesn't spend any time with. the father he. all that and just the calm sadness of. that that we. we live we can live parallel lives and. never quite connect. and there is a little bit of that in. father and son with cat stevens too you. know like when this when the sun is. saying um. from the moment that i could talk i was. ordered to listen yeah i always i always. remember listening to that line feeling. like. that really moved me but the beauty of. that song is it shows. it's kind of like the theme of what i.

feel like we've talked about since the. second you got here which is something i. really like i don't know why it's such. an important theme in my life right now. but. the duality. of just understanding that you don't. understand someone else's situation. and there's truth to both sides. like there's truth to what the father is. saying to the son he's like saying these. things and he's like i'm looking out for. you i love you. take your time with these things if you. want to get married you can like these. things will bring up and then the son. saying listen like i i want to pave my.

own path i want to do this like why are. you telling me this like. the son's not wrong because there's a. lot of parents who tell their kids what. to do and they're wrong. and that you know what i mean like. and they don't let the kid form the path. that they need to. but should you not be a parent like you. know there's just two yeah there's a. there's a thing it is annoying when. you're older. you get you get to see people do all the. same things you could say well.

this is. um this is a phase. and you'll see that this actually will. um end up in this way you can like. predict how the life unrolls and it's. very annoying for young people to hear. especially because it's probably going. to be true it's like no it's not going. to be like this. no i'm going to be different but then. you become that person but that doesn't. mean they also. let them live that life right let them. make the mistakes. uh but they're not mistakes actually. they're. they're like. beautiful deviations from the.

from the path that they end up on and. those those those make the path. um. do you have. advice for young folks today you've had. like an incredible. dark journey. and a successful one. a loving one. and one of the most successful. artists in the world. is there advice you can give to young. people today that would like to find. themselves to that way especially if.

they're struggling i thought you said. device at first and i was like honestly. i feel like that device is not helping. like maybe everybody should get away. throw away their devices um advice. um. i would just say like what i emphasize. to my kids is. i really really want my kids to just. learn to love himself. it's it's easier said than done. it's really easy to pick on yourself in.

life. it's really easy to look in the mirror. and wish you looked different. wish you were more successful like that. person over there. wish that. you know wish a lot of things. and. people that i see that really succeed at. life really succeed truly and that. doesn't mean they're making money. necessarily or they're succeeding and. you know they're talking to a lot of. people like their success success to me.

is like. happy. and. real they have real self-love you meet. you know when you meet someone you meet. rick for instance you meet rick rubin. rick has a calmness about him and it's. funny because everybody sees him as this. like. zen master like. rick is just a really. loving person who also loves himself and. has self-confidence because you just see. it and it resonates and that's why he. draws people and that's why he's so. great in the studio because you know his.

intentions always as an artist when a. producer comes in you're like whoa whoa. what are your intentions what are you. trying to do are you trying to get a hit. out of me for the label or you're trying. to make me something are you trying to. like make me this so you can prove this. about yourself like there's a lot in. that dynamic and the reason that rick is. so good is because. you know his intentions. and his intentions come because rick has. that self-love so for me. find the things about yourself because. they're there. that you love. and really focus in on them and it's not.

selfish like i feel like i was brought. up in a family too where it was like. never look inward like be selfless like. serve serve serve which by the way i'm. is a true principle of life i think you. love yourself more when you serve more i. think that's. really evident in life. but also spend time doing the things. that make you happy take time every day. to go on that walk that you need to go. on listen to that book tape that you. need to listen to like for me that's. something i need i know if i do that i'm.

going to be a better dad because i did i. did i gave myself some some love back in. life. and uh and i just forgive yourself i. think forgive yourself because everybody. messes up everybody hurts others. everybody says unkind words at times. everybody. everybody fails all the time and if you. think that you're going to not. you're wrong and you're eventually going. to and you're either going to punish. yourself for it every day and be a. lesser version of what you could be. or you're going to forgive yourself for.

it. and if you've learned that that's not. something you want then try not to do it. again if you do it again then and you're. probably going to do it again whatever. that is you're gonna you're gonna gossip. about that person you're gonna feel bad. because then you gossiped about someone. like is there something you could say in. terms of self-love. is there a role for being critical and. you're like that that those demons of. like self-criticism do you need a little. bit of that tom waits talks about i like. my town with a little drop of poison. right you need a little poison. or is it is that silly or romantic no i.

mean it isn't look. my my biggest thing in life this. has been like the thing that i've worked. on the hardest for the last few years. is to not be overly critical. um. [Music]. and. to let go of control. i i think um. it's really easy to kill an artist. it's really easy to kill an artist like. if my dad would have sat down with me. that day. and even if he would have just sat down. and been like.

good job son okay it's not silly right. like i don't i didn't not everybody has. a dad who's gonna ever do something or. put in the time or whatever. but. that would that might have altered. everything for me. like my dad taking the extra time to. just give me a thoughtful response. opposed to kids know kids know when. you're when you're just like trying to. get out of the room or whatever i knew. he wasn't. and that did a lot so yeah. but is that is that a huge. is not what makes the artist it's the.

fragility of it. that. like uh would you have it any other way. no no i i agree with you i think that. that's what. that uh. that's the beauty of art but i think. also on the same token it's like. i went to i went to music cares recently. which is a charity for musicians that. are down on their luck that maybe were. successful at one point or i've never.

been successful and they can't build and. pay the bills on this charity. contributes money to these artists. aspiring artists or artists who've had. drug issues and like there's a lot that. they do but and there was a statistic. that they told it was staggering to me. which is i think it was 75 percent. of artists musicians. say they struggle with severe depression. that's really high i don't know what the. national average is. but i would guess that that's higher. than national average per occupation. so i just think.

there's a tricky balance. there's a tricky balance in. in art um. so yeah of course. like it's it's a necessary thing the. fragility of it all. but. um yeah i i wonder because i'm extremely. self-critical and i sometimes ask myself. the question. i've romanticized it or rather. i've learned to be. for it to be productive to channel into.

productivity. but i i wonder. if there's better ways to do that and i. also wonder if it's eventually the thing. that destroys me like if long term. if it's a healthy thing it might be. useful. when you're in sort of. actively. fighting the battles of the day the for. me it's engineering challenges and all. that kind of stuff right but then when. you're sitting back. and enjoying life with family and so on. is that going to be.

like do you need to find that self-love. like ability to kind of. um. silence the voice of criticism in your. head you know what i i really there's a. you're making a good point and i think. that the middle ground. is you need. you need self-doubt. to push you to be better. i do believe that like. for instance if i if i believed.

i've had my like when you're like is. there a song on there that you think is. genius if i think i've written a genius. song ever i think i'd probably stop. i think i'd be like you know what. i did it i wrote um. uh what's that perfect song. [Laughter]. imagine imagine yet okay if i'd written. imagine i'd probably be like. that's it did it all right perfect song. has been written that's the best thing. i'll ever do yeah.

so the fact that. that there is. like. self-criticism and criticism outside i. think is necessary 100 100 for sure it. pushes you it pushes you it pushes you. it's just finding. the right middle ground for that young. aspiring artist to also not feel. squashed and to be heard. and to love just not even to feel squash. just to love themself. so that when they're in the room playing. the song.

they'll believe it because. they believe themselves they love. themselves enough that they believe it. and then they'll do a great and then the. song will come out great and they'll do. a great performance. i i have to ask. it's one of the. very interesting aspects of your life of. of the of the way you put love out there. in the world uh what is at the core of. your support for the lgbt community. a couple things so one. growing up in. from a young age in the artist community.

a lot of my closest friends were lgbtq. starting in middle school. um. [Music]. and. i think a lot of the best artists in the. world are lgbtq and that's just no it's. not a secret like it's just it's like. the artist community is filled with lots. of lgbtq people. so. i think being raised in that community. in that my friends. struggled with their faith and their. sexuality.

really. opened up my eyes. to. how. incredibly hard that path is. for instance okay when i was in high. school. there was someone who went in front of. who was lgbtq and was mormon and felt. like there was not a place for them in. the church. uh they felt like the past you know when. when you're being told that that's evil. and you believe it because you believe. in your faith. and you feel like it's unchangeable.

you're putting a kid in a situation. where there's really no good resolution. it's either be alone for the rest of. your life. or marry outside your sexual preference. which i don't want to marry a man like. if i was forced to marry a man i'm like. i don't want to. be married to a man. because i'm heterosexual. so you're forcing a kid into a situation. where. it's very dangerous long story short. this kid went in front of the las vegas. mormon temple and shot himself killed. himself.

that impacted our community like. and. not just that but it was like severe. bullying to to lgbtq kids in the 90s it. was especially different like. they're still bowling don't get me wrong. but man like bullying in school i don't. really know actually what it's like in. schools now maybe the bowling's just as. bad as it was in the 90s but. there was like it was. like i would hear. all the time like the f slur being slung. out at people who were lgbtq.

all the time. and i wasn't even lgbtq so. i. you know it's just seeing that. i think that every. um. [Music]. any social justice issue. takes all sides. it takes all pieces of the puzzle if. only the pieces of the puzzle. contributed are from the side that is. affected i don't believe that we'll ever. have resolution we're doing a shit job. and we need to do better.

and that's just uh. that's that's the reality of it so. that's part of the reason i also have. family who's lgbtq and and it's just. something that's been part of my. my path and i i feel like i'm i'm a big. believer and take the path that is. presented to you and this was just. something that came up in my life a lot. when i met my wife she was living with. her two best friends who are lgbtq. who really didn't want her to marry me. because i was mormon and at the time it. was prop 8 which was mormons were. fighting against. lgbt gay marriage.

and so. that then they didn't come to our. wedding and that really broke my wife's. heart um so it was just like. because mormonism represented everything. that that was against um. their community. so so you felt you had to say something. yeah i felt like by not saying anything. yeah i was saying everything i felt like. by not speaking up. and being like hey dan reynolds is. mormon singer here's this new band magic. dragons and they're mormons it was like.

okay well what do mormons represent they. represent prop 8. what does prop 8. represent bigotry towards. the lgbtq community so what do i do okay. i can speak in every interview and be. like well that's not me i don't believe. that too. or i could just be more active about it. and especially when it's affecting my. family and friends throughout my entire. life it was like all right. this seems like a path that you need to. go down. so. long story short is a path that just. presented itself through through things.

in my life so just on that topic. so religion and god give a lot of. meaning to a lot of people it gives a. tradition that brings people. together. um. across the generations but it also can. hurt people. what do you uh make about that tension. so a source of meaning but also a source. of pain for people. the reality is at least to me again this. is just my reality.

i feel like i'm doing my dad's thing. every time i'm talking to i'm like i. don't really know my two cents here's my. two sets you have become your father. yeah um. the reality and it's my reality and it. is the reality for sure. there's i think that. religion has brought a lot of hurt and. pain to a lot of people. absolutely it has that i don't think. anybody can dispute that on it on either. side. um.

whether it's war. um you know whether it's. slaughtering of entire peoples like it's. there's been a lot of pain and suffering. that has come from religion. um. so my little thing that has been hard. for me is a faith crisis right i had. religion and then i i lost and then i. had nothing so that's for me i was like. well religion did that to me right like. but then at one point it's kind of like. how much of my life am i just gonna. complain about like being raised mormon.

or being depressed like you know as i. get older i'm like okay. so what like okay it's really hurt me. but. were there any good things that came out. of mormonism well yeah there's a lot of. good things that have come to my family. through mormonism. closeness we're really really close. mormon culture is that you live together. forever right the teaching is that. you're in your families are forever we. die and then we go to heaven together. and we're together forever my family. really believes that principle all of. them do.

and that instills a certain way of. living that's kind of beautiful. even if it's naivety. there's something kind of beautiful. about. believing that we're forming these bonds. together as a family and that like we're. gonna be together forever it brings a. lot of comfort to a kid too when i was. little i was like wow. it's gonna be okay if i die because i. get to see my mom again you know i mean. i like i really believe that. is the right answer that you tell that. kid. actually when you die you're not gonna.

see your mom again. maybe it might be i don't know and. everybody's gonna anybody who has a kid. is gonna face that. that moment i've already faced it where. you sit down and my kid was like hey dad. when you die am i gonna see you again. that was actually a really hard moment. for me because i was suddenly faced with. okay do i give the answer that i thought. was bullshit or do i give the answer of. what i think it is or do i give the real. answer which is i don't know. and that's what i chose which is a.

father that's not always the easiest. answer because your kid it's a wonderful. thing that you feel like you can give. your kid the comfort of like hey your. parents are going to take care of. everything we know everything we've been. around my kids always like are you the. strongest i'm like yeah i am the. strongest we're stronger than everybody. yeah everybody. so. when you're faced with that moment it's. like it kind of sucks to tell your kid. like you know what. i don't know if you're gonna see me. after i die. but that but i hope that's why i said i.

was like i don't know but but i hope i. really hope because that would be. awesome if we can hang out forever. and if there's any way for it to happen. i'll make it happen you know what i mean. that's kind of what my answer was. so long story short. sorry i know that i'm being lengthy on. this. is there like what is my thought on. religion it just is it's gonna it's been. here forever it's coping it maybe it's i. can't say whether it's true or false how. the hell am i supposed to know. i mean like i've lived 34 years on this.

planet a lot of people have been around. a lot longer than me and they really. believe very deeply and a lot of them. are smarter than me you know what i mean. like i look at my older brothers for. instance who are very practicing mormons. these guys are hyper intelligent my my. younger sister hyper intelligent all of. them start smarter than me they all. believe it still so what am i supposed. to say. well you're all stupid you know what i. mean like you're all wrong i don't know. like maybe it's the south park episode. where everybody dies and then they're. like.

well the right answer was mormonism. oh. i mean like. mormon mormons love that moment in south. park they're like hey that day may come. that day they come. yes so maybe maybe i don't know is the. honest answer for everybody around the. table uh but the biggest. question for which the idea knows is the. right answer is uh. what's the meaning of this whole thing. what's the meaning of life. now you're not allowed to say i don't.

know okay. um you can. be just like your dad and say let me. just give my two cents. take it for you whatever it's worth take. it or leave it it's probably worth. nothing. piddle on the ground. um. uh do you i mean what why are we here is. it. it's just. busily creating all these kinds of. things. worrying about things having kids. i. my purpose at least right now.

is. to wake up. and try to. bring light love to the world. light love to myself. and have integrity. that's. my purpose. the ultimate purpose of life. that i guess that's my ultimate purpose. of life i i i don't know what happens.

when i die. ayahuasca gave me some sense that. there's more to be known. i'm sure there are other things in life. that would give me that that i'm and i'm. lurking i'm looking for it i'm a seeker. like i'm. i'm always looking for the next. something to give me hope in something. more even if so i could just not. bullshit my kids when they asked me that. question and be like you know what. i really don't know i i want to not know. more. if that makes sense i don't want to like.

i want to see things that make me. confused. that make me question what i already. knew like i. am. like. when i meet an atheist who comes up to. me and they're like atheism atheism. atheism. it's just as laughable to me as when i. meet the mormon who comes up and they're. like mormonism mormonism mormonism i'm. like. how do how do anyone how do you guys. know that like. like.

and you know. so you feel like you're doing some. through all your travels to all the. people you meet you feel like you're. still keeping your eyes open and your. heart open to. sort of discover. discover something new like the. ayahuasca experience. that there might be there might be. deeper truths out there. yeah and and i want to find them and i. want to surround myself with people who. are just looking for it i'm not i'm not. interested in people who are just. looking to point fingers at each like i. life is so short i'm looking for it's.

one of the reasons that i want to meet. with you is i was like wow. lex really seems like he's on a journey. to find truth and that humility for me. is same thing with rick it drew me to. rick it was like i really i i see that. and i identify with it and that's what. i'm looking for there's the final song. on our record our new record that's. coming out. the chorus goes um. and this is like the this is my best. answer to white to what you're asking. um. the course goes.

take it easy on me. i need some lullaby. they tell me heaven's just a lie well. i'm not surprised tell me that you know. no you don't yeah you're just like me. can we just hope for the best take it. easy. so that's it for me it's like i'm in a. place like where i'm like. i don't know. tell me you know i don't i'm not gonna. believe you maybe you do i'm not gonna.

believe it but. like just be easier on each other and. like try to find truth wherever it may. lie but above all know that we don't. know jack shit. i think that's the mic drop moment dan. thank you so much you're an incredible. human i love that you share with the. world. the darkness. of your mind of your life experience and. the in the beautiful light that you've. shown to the world so it's a huge honor. and thank you for spending your valuable. time good luck on the tour thanks man. thanks for having me.

thanks for listening to this. conversation with dan reynolds to. support this podcast please check out. our sponsors in the description and now. let me leave you with some words from. aldous huxley. after silence that which comes nearest. to expressing the inexpressible. is music. thank you for listening and hope to see. you next time.